# Talk:Buffalo, New York

Why is the article missing its climate chart? That is very strange for a city of this size.
I see that there is some version of the climate chart included in another person's comment on this Talk page.
I am not knowledgeable about climate charts, but it's easy to imagine that a city that is very cold and/or very snowy might want to modify its climate chart so that people don't get a negative impression of the place.
I hope that is not why the article is missing its climate chart, and I hope that an accurate one is included with the article very soon!
This should not be controversial!!!47.44.96.195 (talk) 18:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

It seems like such an obvious question.2601:200:C000:1A0:D468:F23C:FD48:2F6E (talk) 04:30, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

It's there -- go to the climate section, end of the third paragraph. Depending on how you are browsing it may show differently, but I see a show/hide button, and it's hidden by default. Antandrus (talk) 04:46, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Hello all, I'm working now to try and get this article to good article and potentially featured article status. It has been a goal of mine for a very long time to do this and I think it's a possibility, even as very few city articles have reached FA-status in the past 10 years. My process is to reference the structures of FAs for Minneapolis, Boston and Cleveland. Minneapolis was recently reviewed and is the most up-to-date and in-shape of these articles. Other U.S. city FAs have not been as maintained as these, so I am not using them as a guide. So far, the Culture, Sports, Education, and some of the History sections seem to be at the high quality standard that the best Wikipedia articles have.    
In addition, I have several books at my disposal that I'm referencing and they are in the bibliography of the article. Since these are mostly historical books, I may need others to reference the culture section for example. In addition, I am looking for access to the New York History Journal and hope to get this soon. 
After I do more research and the article is expanded, edited and sourced properly, I will ask for it to be copy edited and will likely go straight to a GA nomination. Depending on the response I will see how feasible an FA nomination is. 
I will be looking to take pictures around the area in the coming months. Many photos in this article are outdated, of lower quality, aren't as relevant to the city as a whole or have exposure issues. 
If anyone has any suggestions or wishes to collaborate please let me know! Buffaboy talk 16:53, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

The article does not include Daemon University 2600:1700:4678:F300:A0A0:3B7:61B9:3E3C (talk) 23:51, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Seal of Buffalo, New York.svg
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:47, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

At this point in time I feel comfortable with this article's development outside of the History section, minus the econ section. Although I want to get the article to GA status, I've probably put in nearly 200 hours into editing the article so far. I know it's a lofty challenge but I believe GA is only the first step, I'd like to get the article to featured status. 
With this in mind, I will be getting physical books soon mostly for the history section. Now I'm not used to note taking even though I took a research class in college, what advice could you give (if you've worked on a featured article) for effective research? What books are most appropriate, i.e. fits in with WP:NPOV? Buffaboy t and c 17:24, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

(invited by the bot)I've done a lot of GA reviews and took one article to FA but FA is not my dance.    One thing to double check is that the lead is a summary of the body of article so it should not have anything that is not in the body.   Looks like the "49th largest" might be a case of this.  Also, if it's cited in the body it's doesn't have to be cited again in the lead. Footnes in the lead is fine but might raise the question of whether that material is in the body of the article. North8000 (talk) 19:25, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
Good catch, thank you. Buffaboy t and c 23:00, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
I'm a researcher in my everyday job, and may be some quick advise, its quicker if you are using general books, rather than indepth niche ones. Being an encyclopedia, general books should be enough. Just make sure they are by a reputable author and publisher so they meet RS of course.
200 hours, good going, that's amazing. Great effort! Deathlibrarian (talk) 23:36, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

@Deathlibrarian: Thank you! When you say general books, do you mean like topical books rather than specific ones? Buffaboy 23:47, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
@Buffaboy: (Summoned by bot) One important thing to keep in mind is proportionality; i.e., how many words/paragraphs to devote to different aspects of the main [sub-]topic. In this case, it sounds like your research topic is "history of Buffalo". Getting a sense of proportionality is something that is difficult to ascertain by looking at secondary sources if there are too many of them.  A good way to start, might be to look at WP:TERTIARY sources, and see how much space they devote to each subsection: pre-history, pre-Columbian, European colonization, and so on.  Some tertiary sources may have footnotes or a brief bibliography or list of sources, which means those are secondary sources with the imprimatur of a trusted tertiary source, and might be worth looking at as a starting point among the sources you use to develop the original framework of your article, or section. Once you've scoped out the basic framework with the appropriate proportions, you can fill in the details with more niche sources available to you locally, while maintaining appropriate proportions as the whole expands. I added {{section sizes}} to the TP header for you, so you can get a birds-eye view of the current breakdown of the article by section. Mathglot (talk) 05:53, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
@Mathglot: Great explanation. I've already finished rewriting everything outside of the history section. I've been actively avoiding tertiary sources because I didn't want them to shape my idea for building the article, but your idea makes more sense. Buffaboy (talk) 06:37, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
And the section header is amazing, as well as the other utilities you added. Thank you! Buffaboy (talk) 06:40, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Buffaboy, since you feel that the article is basically ready for GA, might I ask you to fix my pet niggle?  In the "Notes" section there are footnotes created using {{harvnb}} to Goldman 1983a and 1983b.  Currently there are two sources that declare themselves as 1983b and none as 1983a, so both footnotes generate harv/sfn errors.  Thanks!  Wham2001 (talk) 07:30, 8 June 2021 (UTC) PS. fine-looking article otherwise! 

Wham2001 I forgot about those, clearly I haven't read though the article again. Thank you for watching progress and the reminder. Buffaboy (talk) 07:33, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

When will you update the population in terms with the 2020 census. Jdietr601 (talk) 01:28, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Jdietr601 Unless I am out of the loop, it appears as though only estimates are available right now. If you can find the official release, feel free to add it in. dekema (Formerly Buffaboy) (talk) 05:39, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

I can't make any sense of the population density statistics, and they're not referenced. My guess is that other values were updated without updating the stats, and they're just computed. The reference given for area leads to a list of counties in New York state, and include information about Buffalo city ... so we don't know the area. The population number is updated from the census.  Without a reference, should this information be removed? Is a reference forthcoming? -- Mikeblas (talk) 17:47, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Mikeblas Yes, I haven't had too much time to update the population figures but when I (or anyone else) have the opportunity to, I'll get to it ASAP. The article is also in PR for FA, but again I have to find the time to address the concerns raised there as well. dekema (Formerly Buffaboy) (talk) 19:32, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

There's been some back-and-forth editing to delete and restore etc etc two different sets of population figures. One starts with 1508 in 1810 and has 278,349 in 2020. The other starts with 68 in 1810 and has 110,000 in 2020. Sound like metro-area vs city limits, but did they really have metro-area stats in 1810 and 1820 etc? Maybe they had "city and surrounding area, but it seem odd that in 1810 you'd have 68 people in the "city limits" (waterfront village I suppose) and another 1,440 in the "surrounding area". Odd and how would they know to this level of detail?  
The two refs 404 on me so I don't know. Not familiar with this article, maybe someone could sort this out, maybe add a note to the list as to what it is (or another column so as to have both), maybe an internal edit notice, straighten out sources. Just pointing this out. Herostratus (talk) 01:50, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

That's kind of weird, I guess I'll look through tomorrow and see what's going on. It's interesting how an article can change when you haven't edited it in awhile. dekema (Formerly Buffaboy) (talk) 03:14, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Before covid-19 pandemic Bangladeshi people started to move Buffalo from NYC because of having a own house in cheap and also buying a house in cash.Bangladeshi American have a dream to have a own house in America.Also NYC rent became more higher than before. Because all of these, Bangladeshi started to move in buffalo. In covid-19 pandemic, It's became more and more. Nowadays, There are 150+ hundred thousand of Bangladeshi People live in Buffalo and near area's. Most of them has their own house. Also many of them has more than 100 or 50 houses.It's a big community in Buffalo now.And it gradually increasing day by day 27.147.201.186 (talk) 08:25, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Moved the sentence about the 2022 mass shooting out of the introduction. While still devastating and a major event in the city of Buffalo history, the shooting should not be mentioned in the intro paragraph for the overall article. Especially a paragraph about culture.
For now I put it in with "public safety" . Looking at how other mass shootings were organized into their City pages (Dayton, Orlando, Aurora) it is usually included in the section on the history of the city, or in Dayton's case only a brief mention of the event in their crime section.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gart99 (talk • contribs) 18:01, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Cannibal Corpse is a very successful band from Buffalo. Worth including Dethcorenthuseast (talk) 00:36, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Buffalo was so named as it was the site of the British trade in buffalo hides. ItsACityOfApes (talk) 02:28, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion the current iteration of the photo montage is a joke. I much prefer the iteration from earlier this year, as most of the images were newer and higher quality. For instance, the Metro Rail livery in the gallery has not been used in nearly 20 years, if not longer. The shot of City Hall is taken at a bad angle. The panorama at the top is more like a silhouette of the skyline rather than a proper capture of it. The drone image I took last year, while I did not add it to the article (and disliked it), portrays the skyline in an appropriate way. This sounds like harsh criticism but for a good article the photo gallery should be presentable. dekema (Formerly Buffaboy) (talk) 04:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, fixing. Let me know what you think. ɱ (talk) 15:21, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
That's fabulous, I was going to wait for others to chime in but it looks great. Thanks a lot! dekema (Formerly Buffaboy) (talk) 23:51, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

User:AndrewSan12 continues to edit-war over the first sentence of the article, adding:

Buffalo is the second most-popular city in the state and the 6th most-populous Administrative Division in the U.S. state of New York and the seat of Erie County.
My first concern is that this is a sloppy run-on sentence.
My other concern is that Administrative divisions of New York (state)--a link which User:AndrewSan12 insists on including--is both unnecessary and confusing, because that article includes "counties" as administrative divisions.  Moreover, the non-US census source this editor uses to support their edit, does not include counties and does not even mention "administrative divisions".
The input of others would be appreciated. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:38, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

in the articles "administrative divisions" are the various forms of local government. Counties are one form, Towns, Villages and Cities are others. The sloppiness of the sentences shouldn't be put on me. I didn't create this article. AndrewSan12 (talk) 19:30, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
Yeah on the merits, I don't think "administrative district" should be in the lede sentence, possibly not in lede at all, but not in the first paragraph if it is.
So OK, the reader wants to find out about this place "Buffalo". The lede, particularly the first sentence, is important. So, let's see what this one does. It tells me that:
It is a city
A large one
In New York State
In Erie County (which enh, but whatever, and the name of this one happens to imply its location)
It is the 6th largest administrative district
Which, what is an administrative district. It's not the city. It's not the county, we gave that (although it actually is the county, turns out). Maybe administrative district = the metro area maybe? In which case its not so big city. If it's not that, it's something else. Well, there's a link I can click which requires me to leave the page before I've even read the first sentence. If I want to know what an administrative district is, which it's maybe important cos it's in the first sentence. Which takes me to a page which doesn't explain it much and is intended for people who are learning about a specific part pf New York State political geography, which most people searching on "Buffalo" won't.
Plus that article's lede needs some clarity. Rather than starting with "The administrative divisions of New York are the various units of government that provide local services in the U.S. State of New York. The state is divided into boroughs, counties, cities, towns, and villages...". Needs to be something like "Administrative district is the general term New York State uses to refer to its counties, cities, towns, boroughs, and villages. Every populated place in New York is in an administrative district; some are quite large and some quite small." Or something.
Yeah 86 it. For my part, what I really want to know is the size of the metro area. Many cities have unusually cramped or expansive city limits, so the population of just the legal city is kind of misleading.
So let's see, how about
Buffalo is the second largest city in New York State and center of the second largest metropolitan area in the state. It is located in the western part of the state, on Lake Erie, and is the county seat of Erie county.
(I don't know if "metro area" or "metropolitan area" is used, or "largest" or "most populous" etc.)
Being near Niagara Falls (and the gateway to the falls, basically) is important, as Niagara Falls is famous worldwide and more famous the Buffalo I'm sure. Probably a fair number of people looking up the city are going to Niagara Falls or learning about Niagara Falls and want to know about its immediate area.
You could go with "on Lake Erie, near Niagara Falls, and is...". Or you could sneak it in like this
Buffalo is the second largest city in New York State and center of the Buffalo–Niagara Falls metropolitan area, the second largest in the state. It is located in the western part of the state, on Lake Erie, and is the county seat of Erie county.
Tough call. The first is clear and direct. The second, you have to stop for a split second and think... "Oh that must mean it is near Niagara Falls", which ledes should be as smooth as possible. The second does add a bit of data though, the name of the metro area.
As for the administrative district (I'm assuming that Erie County is the administrative district) sure it can go somewhere in the lede if you like, but give some context when you introduce it maybe:
Erie County is the sixth largest administrative division in New York State, the five largest being the five boroughs of New York City.
Or "...and the largest that is not part of New York City" or something.
TL;DR:: get rid of the administrative district from the first paragraph at least Herostratus (talk) 20:42, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
Ledes get tweaked around a lot. Cos they're right there. The 93rd sentence might need attention instead. One year ago the lede started with "Buffalo is the second-largest city in the U.S. state of New York and the seat of Erie County. It is at the eastern end of Lake Erie, at the head of the Niagara River, and is across the Canadian border from Southern Ontario".
Which, I don't know, that's missing some of our data but adds other data. So who knows? Herostratus (talk) 20:48, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
"Administrative division" should not be included in the article, because it's a misleading link.  Why?  Because the Wikipedia article Administrative divisions of New York (state) lists counties as "administrative divisions", so saying that Buffalo is one of the largest administrative divisions is misleading and wrong.  Buffalo isn't bigger than a county.  I tried to remove this but User:AndrewSan12 kept reverting. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:03, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
User:AndrewSan12, you need to come here to this thread and make your case. Do not keep reverting, this is not how we work together to find the best solutions to things.Herostratus (talk) 23:09, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
Fat chance, he's been pushing similar edits at Utica, New York and List of municipalities in New York and I haven't gotten him to engage in a discussion. Apocheir (talk) 20:25, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
what's there to say AndrewSan12 (talk) 22:57, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
There's plenty to say. We are a cooperative project where we hash things out thru conversation and collegial argument to find the best solutions to disputes. You can read my message above and I also engaged you on your talk page. Make your case for putting "administrative division" at the front. We are listening. Herostratus (talk) 22:12, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
If you can notice it, "admin divisions of New York" states, and I quote "The administrative divisions of New York are the various units of government that provide local services in the U.S. State of New York. The state is divided into boroughs, counties, cities, towns, and villages." so when comparing the populations we use all. and I quote again "Counties and incorporated municipal governments (also known as "general purpose units of local government"; i.e., cities, TOWNS and villages) in the State of New York have been granted broad home rule powers enabling them to provide services to their residents and to regulate the quality of life within their jurisdictions." All of these are administrative divisions, counties being the primary, thus making a town or any other form of government an "administrative division". AndrewSan12 (talk) 17:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
And I know we are talking about Buffalo, but since I just proved here, Cities and Town's populations are combined no matter the legal power over one. I cant say "6th most populous city" because I'm comparing it with towns, and these towns are not to be confused with cities, thus I shall use "admin division". AndrewSan12 (talk) 17:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
Alright. Thanks for responding. Well, I'm not convinced. I've made my points above, and you didn't really address or try to refute them I think. I don't much care about how things in New York are divided up legally, you do I guess, and as I said I'm guessing that is because it's your area of expertise and interest. And fine, but we're writing for the general reader here, and I think the bit about 6th largest division is going to just confuse them. Let's see if anybody else has anything to say. Herostratus (talk) 05:14, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Because I'm not quite getting the point you're trying to make, if anything I should just say "City/Town" to clear up any confusion. and on the first statement again, and as Magnolia said "My first concern is that this is a sloppy run-on sentence" first off, that is not on me. second, he continued talking about "administrative district" that's a whole different thing from "admin division", You also said "I think the bit about 6th largest division is going to just confuse them" who will it confuse? I highly doubt that any reader would get confused. AndrewSan12 (talk) 19:05, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Couldn't we have a better picture than one of the Peace Bridge?
Noticed in this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_New_York_(state) Grovedweller (talk) 17:51, 21 June 2024 (UTC)