# Talk:History of agriculture in Scotland

This review is transcluded from Talk:History of agriculture in Scotland/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Sainsf (talk · contribs) 15:08, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
Hi! Will review this. Sainsf <^>Feel at home 15:08, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
--SabreBD (talk) 14:05, 10 April 2016 (UTC)Update: A bit busy now, I think I will be able to get to this only by the end of this week. Cheers! Sainsf <^>Feel at home 18:45, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

OK, thanks for taking this on. I look forward to developments.--SabreBD (talk) 20:25, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
@Sabrebd: Hi, I took some time out to finish a couple of reviews. I am adding all my comments below:


### Lead
The lead has 4 paras and that agrees with WP:MOSLEAD, but I believe the paras need to be shortened. The present size of the lead is 6,446 bytes, I guess this could be halved. The lead should look like a summary, but at the moment it looks like a long essay.
I have edited this down as much as I can, while keeping the overall summary.--SabreBD (talk) 23:03, 10 April 2016 (UTC)


### Land and climate
This could be better renamed "Geography and climate"
 Done
Can we wikilink the countries? Optional.
Obvious countries are usually not linked.--SabreBD (talk) 14:05, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
In most articles they link all or none of the countries. I am not sure how we can differentiate between countries on our own... Sainsf <^>Feel at home 15:47, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
WP:OVERLINKING says that thinks that should not normally be linked include: "The names of major geographic features and locations, languages, nationalities and religions".--SabreBD (talk) 23:07, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Scotland is roughly half the size of England and Wales and has approximately the same amount of coastline Does that mean Scotland's area is as large as its coast (not possible I am sure) or is its coastline of the same length as those of these two countries? If the latter case, write "...England; its coastline is as long as that of either England or Wales".
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 14:05, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 but only between a fifth and a sixth of the amount of the arable or good pastoral land, under 60 metres above sea level, and most of this is located in the south and east.  This can be made into a separate line. Begin with "However".
 Done, not quite in the way suggested here because of other changes.--SabreBD (talk) 14:05, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
We need Convert templates here for length measurements.
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 14:05, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
fishing, the key factors  Unnecessary comma
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 14:05, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 Its east Atlantic position means that it has very heavy rainfall Say "...position causes very heavy rainfall"
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 14:05, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
today about 700 cm per year What does "today" mean? Say as of which year.
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 14:05, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Link or explain acidity, salt spray, quicksand
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 14:05, 10 April 2016 (UTC)


### Prehistory
At times during the last interglacial period "At times" is not needed
It did not have that climate for the entire period. That seems to change the meaning, but I am open to suggestions.--SabreBD (talk) 15:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Oh, then we do not need any reword. Sainsf <^>Feel at home 15:46, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Link glacier, antler, Roman, birch, oak and hazel
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 15:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
What is a cairnfield?
It explains in the next clause - I have put this in brackets for emphasis.--SabreBD (talk) 15:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
"cow's milk" can be simply put as "cow milk"
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 15:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)


### Middle Ages
Northern Britain Why does northern have "N"?
Because the source used it. Essentially it is a way of talking about what is now Scotland and northern England when the term Scotland did not have its modern meaning.--SabreBD (talk) 22:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

 The climate meant that more oats and barley were grown than corn Better say the climate was more favourable for oats and barley than for corn.
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 22:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 The average amount of land used by a husbandman in Scotland might have been around 26 acres Convert template for the area.
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 22:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
What is a runrig?
Linked and explained.--SabreBD (talk) 22:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 in the immediate aftermath of the Black Death (1349) was still buoyant Could a word or two be added about the Black Death?
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 22:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)


### Early modern era
local tenants-in-chief, who held legally held their land directly from the king and who by the sixteenth century were often the major local landholders in an area, grew in significance. Source for this part?
It is the next reference - Mitchison, Lordship to Patronage, p. 79.--SabreBD (talk) 22:33, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
I could spot no troubles with the rest of the article. The prose is interesting and well-written, with appropriate images alongside. No copyvios detected, sources fine. These issues resolved, I will be glad to promote this. Great job! Sainsf <^>Feel at home 08:41, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Sabrebd, are you there? If you do not respond soon, Sainsf may have to fail the article. Display name 99 (talk) 20:28, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
I am, but it was completed a bit earlier than I expected. I will probably have time to deal with it sometime this week.--SabreBD (talk) 23:27, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
@Sabrebd: No haste, it was natural as I had put up that update about my absence. Will keep the review open till the issues are addressed :) Sainsf <^>Feel at home 08:12, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
Thanks.--SabreBD (talk) 08:19, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
@Sabrebd: You there? 5 days since your last response. Sainsf <^>Feel at home 13:29, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. I see no more issues with the article. I believe this is ready for promotion. Cheers, Sainsf <^>Feel at home 05:21, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

The following is copied from User talk:Richard Nevell 
I reverted the edit[1] on History of agriculture in Scotland. There are 3 main reasons for this.
Firstly the historians who work in this field do not apply the term "forced displacement" to the Highland clearances. You can find people who are not academic historians doing so if you look hard enough, but in an article that has "history" in its title, I don't think you need me to spell out any arguments on the sort of references to expect.
Secondly, I don't know how familiar you are with the reference you cited. It is a paper written by human rights lawyers. Looking at where they presented it, it appears to be a marketing piece - trying to raise their profile and therefore gain more work. (Nothing wrong with that - we all have to make a living.) It does not seem to have any claim to have serious academic credentials.
Thirdly, if you look at the mention of the Highland clearances in their paper, it is a very minor part of the paper - to the extent that it is reasonable to conclude that it is a reference in passing (as per WP:CONTEXTMATTERS: "Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable").
Sorry to come back so forcefully on this, but much of the editing around the Highland clearances has been done in the context of trying to get the accepted views of the historians working in the field into Wikipedia - rather than some of the stuff written by others. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 18:34, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Hello ThoughtIdRetired, nice to have you here! To your above points, I will say that lawyers may indeed have something to contribute (not least because the publisher is an academic publisher) and interdisciplinarity tends to build a stronger article. I have, however, added another source using the term to allay your concerns. Richard Nevell (talk) 18:40, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Unfortunately the extra reference is written by a junior academic who specialises in English literature rather than Scottish history. Reading the mention of the Highland clearances, I think it also meets the criteria for a reference in passing. I am a little puzzled as to exactly what you are trying to achieve - the facts of the Highland clearances speak for themselves - there is no need to use the language you want to insert. Much better to try and understand the out-of-phase abandonment of dùthchas - this is one of the 2 main reasons for discontent over the clearances - and it is something that particularly hit those less able to look after themselves.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 18:55, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
User:Richard Nevell, I think you need to have some regard for WP:HISTRS.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 19:05, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Please do comment on the content, not the contributor. Dr Richard Nevell (talk) 19:12, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Asking you to look at a Wikipedia essay about reliable sources for a history article is a comment on content. The purpose of using your username was to alert you to the comment on this page, as opposed to your user page. I am making a serious point about source selection. I suggest that the sources that you put forward do not meet the requirements for this article - for reasons already explained. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 21:08, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
If you had said you do not consider the sources reliable, that would have been one thing but instead you made it personal. Telling an archaeologist and historian they need to "have some regard for WP:HISTRS" is a tad condescending. Dr Richard Nevell (talk) 21:24, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Let's take this step by step. There are 2 mentions above to "references in passing". If you look at WP:CONTEXTMATTERS (also above) you will see that this is all about reliable sources. I am sorry that I did not make it clearer that these 2 sources are not reliable sources according to the content guideline to which I gave you a link. I have done my utmost to avoid making this personal - in fact I am at a loss as to exactly what has triggered that thinking in you. Clearly I have missed something - so again I apologise. "Archaelogist and historian" - well I am sure that is what you are - but how would any other editor know that? It is rare for an editor to claim any particular credentials and, from my observation, this can cause discord in the Wikipedia community. I am sure there is a sociology thesis or two in the interactions within the Wikipedia community - so I will not comment more on that. I have further remarks on the usage of "forced displacement" appended below.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 21:51, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Looking at the suggested use of "forced displacement" in the article, here is the definition of Forced displacement from the article of the same name:"The concept of forced displacement envelopes demographic movements like flight, evacuation, displacement, and resettlement. The International Organization for Migration defines a forced migrant as any person who migrates to "escape persecution, conflict, repression, natural and human-made disasters, ecological degradation, or other situations that endanger their lives, freedom or livelihood"."I think it is reasonably obvious that clearances in the first phase - especially when alternative accommodation was offered on the same estate, does not match any of these parameters. With second-phase clearances, one could possibly consider that there was flight from a natural disaster (potato blight), but the extensive relief program (largely run and paid for by landowners) does not match with the overall concept of forced displacement - nor do the assisted passages. Additionally, not all second phase clearance was directly associated with blight. Then you need to consider that this article makes a very brief mention of the Highland clearances. Introducing a technical term that is only, with the greatest stretch of interpretation, applicable to part of the process is highly misleading to the reader. It also goes against the usage of all the historians who write on this subject - as I have already made clear.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 21:51, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
It may be worth mentioning that the paper by Eric Richards in International Migrations in the Victorian Era (Leiden: Brill, 2018) ISBN 978-90-04-27674-1 ([2] and then choose page 83) gives an account of the expatriation of Highlanders in the 19th century, with focus on Australia and New Zealand. Eric Richards was one of the major experts on the Highland clearances, carrying out an extensive amount of research and writing several key books within the subject. Lately he was an emeritus Professor with the Centre for Global Migrations at the University of Otago until his death last year. I think his chapter (#3) gives a good representation of the whole range of situations in which Highlanders left - with, at one end of the spectrum, various shades of strong persuasion and compulsion (Richards is slightly less absolute in depicting that outermost fringe of the spectrum, compared to some historians). However, the whole picture given by this widely acknowledged expert does come down firmly, in my opinion, against this article using the term "forced displacement" in the brief mention of the Highland clearances. I would welcome the comments of others.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 14:12, 9 August 2019 (UTC)