# Talk:Micronation

What are the requirements to add or remove a micronation from the section "Notable micronations", because almost all of them are connected or associated with fraud or financial scam projects? Meanwhile there are micronations like Ladonia (art), Molossia and Atlantium (hobby), Flandrensis (ecologic) and many other projects? The section "Micronations based on historical claims" is more based on facts. I propose to remove the section and just keep the reference to the page List of micronations. Delle89 (talk) 20:23, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Personally I think listing micronations as examples of what a micronation can be as to cover the subject. Given their lowscale nature finding reliable sources on any of them besides self publishing, columns, local news, online articles, and the handful of books that might just be also self-publishing there isn't a lot to go on here. ScholarGray13 (talk) 02:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

(Copied from User talk:Donald Albury
Hi, I'm fairly new to wikipedia and you critiqued my sourcing I was planning on editing/correcting them but before I do so I wanted to ask your advise on better citation, most relevantly on the Micronation page; I was hoping you could mentor me on this since my official Wikipedia mentor appears to be absent or inactive. For a few citation errors I can see I made for myself such as the wrong placement for the reference to the fictional country of Ruritania(I placed the reference next to the wrong Ruritania tag), but others are less clear such as Aynvaul being *listed* as attending MicroCon in 2017 where I cited a list of attending members. I see the issue with springer were it mentions them and their location as being a minute mention, but this one I feel would warrant just a mention if it is an attendance list? (correct me if I am wrong). As for the others you mentioned (full citation needed) that they need a more specific citation, these other ones are interviews by Vice and PBS(?) I imagine timestamped links instead of links to the interviews? Furthermore how would I be more specific for references that would satisfy the full citation for website references? 
-Thank you for your time! ScholarGray13 (talk) 16:39, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

I'll start with some policies and guidelines. Everything in an article in Wikipedia must be verifiable from reliable sources. While that does not mean that everything has to have a citation, anything that is, or might be, challenged needs a citation from a reliable source. You did provide a number of sources, but, as you have seen, I questioned the reliability and/or usefulness of several of them. Arnold's book, Pseudo-States and Sovereign Citizens, and the MicroCon website for MicroCon 2017, each mention Aynvual just once, with no further information about the entity. I cannot find any mention of Aynvual in the webpage for the Robert College International Model United Nations. That source, by the way, is not, in my opinion, a reliable source, as it is a mock report produced by a high school-level Model United Nations.
For the second micronation, the Kingdom of Ruritania, you cited an article on historytoday.com that, as far as I could tell, does not mention the micronation, and so does not support any of the content you added to the article. Of the two Youtube videos, the first is from Vice News, and the community has judged that it can be reliable for news. I have no opinion as of yet of its usefulness for the content in this article. The second Youtube video appears to be self-sourced, and therefore not allowable as a source in Wikipedia. Finally, the molossia.org website only mentions the Kingdom of Ruritania as an attendee at MicroCon 2017, and provides no other information about it.
In a separate issue, citations that consist solely of a url are a problem. Wikipedia:Bare URLs are subject to link rot, and if something happens to the URL, it may not be possible to recover an archived version of the site that supports the content the citation was for. Please see Wikipedia:Citing sources for information on how create full citations for various types of sources. - Donald Albury 19:51, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
Interesting, for Aynvaul I was citing those sources to support their existence and their location. The reason I cited MicroCon attendence is typically the ones that attend those are at least serious on their subject enough to spend the money on travel expenses for presentations. Didn't think I needed to cite more to support the claim of them being on the attendance list beyond their inclusion on the list. When I had the pleasure of interviewing some of them for a column I'm putting together for an article of my own (I'll be writing about local trivia and history such as the British forts here on Long Island) I learned a great deal that way. I have seen a flag of theirs once or twice on the road, I just assumed it was the flag of some African country before the interview.
Moving onto Ko_Ruritania the article for historytoday.com was misplaced and was for the fictional country from Hope's Prisoner of Zenda, that's my goof when I correct all these mistakes I intend to move it over (or should I do that immediately?). In regards to the first youtube video by Vice on the title card for the interview it states they are the Host of MicroCon as well as the location they are based out of, and the website I sourced also clearly states they are the host, quote "On 23, 24 and 25 June 2017 XL saw the advent the second major intermicronational get-together and conference, MicroCon 2017. Hosted this year by the Kingdom of Ruritania, MicroCon is a biennial meet-up of micronationalists from around the world." (I suppose maybe I should reference the exact line on the source so it is more clear?) Aynvaul is listed as an attending party but Ruritania was most definitely hosting that year's event. As for the second, I was looking at the quality, given the producer of the video and similar videos appears to be interviewing the individual micronationalists themselves and their official tables at MicroCon 2017.
On the separate issue, I most definitely will be taking a look at that, thank you for the advise and taking the time to answer my questions. If I may, may I ask you to be my mentor instead of my current one as you have been much more inciteful(you actually replied within a business week haha). I have two more questions.
-Should I fix the issues with these citations immediately as I can for them or should I fix them in one go later in the week?
-I added the entry as I felt it should be noted that micronations themselves vary, there was no mention that they can be a more titular and cultural entity without easily defined territory if any at all and needed to list some examples to justify this entry. Looking at it another time I'm wondering if the location of this entry could be better suited in another section after fixing the citation issues.
Again thank you for your time and quick responses! ScholarGray13 (talk) 05:23, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
I would say to proceed in whatever way is comfortable for you. I cannot predict what other editors might do here, but you have stated your intentions and I hope other editors consider those. Donald Albury 12:38, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
alright, I will move the reference over to the correct one and review the suggestions you asked me to look at. Again thank you for the help and advice! :) ScholarGray13 (talk) 09:02, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
For Aynvaul I was able to find a recent publication from litmor (Syosset) news mentioning it to be more of a cultural identity that can be worked with. https://issuu.com/litmorpublishingcorp/docs/jer_07_12_24 see page 15. As for Ruritania: here is something that backs the micronation's location https://qz.com/1196022/photos-the-leaders-control-some-of-the-small-nations-in-the-world (see 6th image down by Matt Roth), https://www.atlantamagazine.com/news-culture-articles/probably-didnt-know-leaders-26-micronations-just-gathered-atlanta/ other than these I couldn't find much for additional links to the two. I'm wondering if I should be using an alternative example and use Ruritania as instead an example of a multigenerational micronation given Anastasia's daughters are particularly involved which is rare for these things. ScholarGray13 (talk) 23:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
The column (which is what it appears to be) about Aynvual is not a very good source, and is subject to the conditions in WP:NEWSORG. Also pertinent is the policy at Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought, item No.2, Personal inventions, seeing that Aynvual was invented by a middle-schooler. As for the mentions of Ruritania in the other sources, all they establish is that someone claiming to represent a non-existent country attended a conference. I think you need to find much better sources about Ruritania. Donald Albury 01:55, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
I'm a little confused on what you mean by original thought here and how personal invention might apply. Personal invention seems to apply to quote "you or a friend". I'm not 100% sure if related, but there is a Facebook group by the same name that that supports them being more cultural.
Speaking of personal thoughts, do you think the Washitaw might better fit the "cultural" category better? ScholarGray13 (talk) 09:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

there are many micronations in Bangladesh. Like Kingdom of Imruland, Nobobangla, Azerdyanistan, Royalia, Siddiquistan, Tamimanagar etc.... ROYALIAN Government (talk) 18:43, 22 June 2025 (UTC)

What do reliable sources say about that? Masterhatch (talk) 19:17, 22 June 2025 (UTC)
Umm hi, former editor on MicroWiki here, Imruland does exist but the others i do not know about 2606:9400:98A0:92A0:11AC:7975:1582:D6F8 (talk) 13:44, 16 October 2025 (UTC)

If the International Micropatrological Society was founded in 1973, but the term micronation is not attested until 1976, what did the IMS initially call micronations? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:34, 12 July 2025 (UTC)
Also, what term(s) is/are used in How to Start Your Own Country instead? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:38, 12 July 2025 (UTC)
Moreover, Wiktionary has an attestation of micro-nation in this sense in an article published on March 11, 1973. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:45, 12 July 2025 (UTC)

The OED entry for micronation lists a usage in 1961, but I don't know which meaning that is for. Unfortunately, the OED doesn't seem to be available through the WikiLibrary, so I can't see the details. The current entry in the article seems to have a bit of OR, and the citation supports only that the term was used in the NYT in 1976, but the statement that it was the first attested use appears to be the opinion of the editor who added the statement. I'll to clear that up. Donald Albury 16:42, 12 July 2025 (UTC)
OK, Wicktionary has an incomplete citation to "Where Is This Place?: Strange shores, Indeed" by Phillip J. Hilts in The Washington Post, 21 Jan 1973, PC 12. It is available on Proquest, but the WikiLibrary access to Proquest does not include it. Hopefully, someone who has full access to Proquest can look at it and cite it if appropriate. Donald Albury 17:04, 12 July 2025 (UTC)
And I now have removed the statement about the 1976 NYT because Hilts' 1973 article was already cited earlier in the paragraph. - Donald Albury 17:17, 12 July 2025 (UTC)
@Donald Albury: Thank you! The thing Wiktionary says is (likely) correct: "The first sense was coined on 11 March 1973 by the editors of the Lansing State Journal (see quotations) in a republication of an article by Philip J. Hilts, originally writing for Potomac Magazine (Sunday supplement to The Washington Post)." The Washington Post article does not use micronation but the Lansing State Journal one does because they slightly altered some of the wording.
From the Micronational Dictionary:
(Page 115)
Nevertheless, the word micronation was never used by Hilts. Curiously, the word in its current meaning first appeared, and was likely coined, in an altered republication of the article by the Lansing State Journal on 11 March 1973. It introduced a new headline, "Micro-Nations Nebulous Fourth World", and added a newly-inserted image of a microscope over a world map with the caption: "even [the] microscope doesn't show up micro-nations, such as Outer Baldonia, but they're there". It also changed some of the wording in the body, such as replacing countries with micro-nations in the following sentence (alongside other edits):
For every dreamer there is somewhere a doer, and in the realm [of] the strange micro-nations, the Republic of Minerva has plunged a bit ahead of the nebulous status of most others.
@Florian Blaschke: Strauss used model country, new country project and new country instead of micronation.
❧ LunaEatsTuna (talk), proudly editing since 2018 (and just editing since 2017) – posted at 18:17, 12 July 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for that information. Donald Albury 18:58, 12 July 2025 (UTC)