# Talk:Monmouthshire

The changes made by A.D.Hope are, in my view, unnecessary and significantly worsen the text.  I reverted them, but was reverted back.  Specifically, the reference to the "administrative centre" being Usk is incorrect - Usk is over a mile from the council offices, and the town itself is not an administrative centre.  The statement that "the county is sparsely populated, despite its proximity to the major population centres..." is unnecessary and odd.  "Sparsely populated" in comparison to what criteria, or from what source?  How is its supposed "proximity to the major population centres" (which ones? where?) relevant?  Regarding the National Park, the correct name of the Park administrative area in English is now Bannau Brycheiniog, though the landforms themselves (which are not what is mentioned here) are still predominantly called the Brecon Beacons.  It is also very odd, and unnecessary, to call a valley "hilly".  Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:10, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

I can't agree that I've significantly worsened the text. As it stood the county had a very short lead which only covered the basics, but it now has three brief paragraphs covering its situation and main towns, demography, and geography, and a history paragraph could easily be added. I explained why I included the details you mention in my edit summary, but I'm happy to repeat myself:
When the largest settlement and administrative centre of a county are different I list both, for completeness. The infobox lists the admin HQ as 'Usk', so I followed it. If that's wrong then then infobox also needs to be updated.
You've cut off over half of the first sentence of the second paragraph. In full, it reads 'The county is sparsely populated, despite its proximity to the major population centres of South Wales; it has an area of 330 square miles (850 km2) and a population of 93,000.' The 'sparse' comment is intended to be read in the context of the UK, so perhaps this needs clarifying, and it's notable that Monmouthshire does not have a large population despite being very close to Newport, Cardiff, and the Valleys, which are some of Wales' most populous regions. I find this approach better than simply stating the figures with no context, as a casual reader may not have enough knowledge of Wales to interpret them.
It's best to use the common English name for things on English Wikipedia, and the rejected move request at the national park's main article this April confirmed its common name is still 'Brecon Beacons'. While I'd like to use Bannau Brycheiniog, it isn't appropriate to do so yet.
Regarding the use of 'hilly', the full sentence is 'Below Monmouth is the hilly Wye Valley AONB, which stretches into England.' I'm using 'hilly' to refer to the AONB as a whole, rather than the Wye Valley specifically. It is slightly clumsy and I did search for a name for the range of hills on either side of the valley to use instead, but they don't seem to have one. Feel free to tweak it.
A.D.Hope (talk) 20:47, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
It is misleading and incorrect to state that Usk is the "administrative centre" of Monmouthshire.  The main council offices are located at Rhadyr, outside Usk, but that is not the same as suggesting that the town of Usk is the centre, implying that it has the status of something like an old county town.
The area is not "sparsely populated" in any meaningful sense; as editors we should not make assumptions that text "is intended to be read in the context of the UK".  Furthermore, the word "despite" should not be used.  There is no reason why populous areas should not be surrounded by less populous areas - they frequently are.  We could say something like "The area is less heavily populated than other parts of south east Wales".
I accept the argument over the national park name (though, like you, I think the article should be moved).
We should not use words that are both "slightly clumsy" and unnecessary.
Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:19, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
Firstly, thank you for your help in refining the lead. I did make my edits in good faith, but I appreciate the criticism.
I can see what you mean about Rhadyr, but Monmouthshire County Council describes its HQ as being in Usk and the local press follows suit. On that basis I'm not convinced that we need to change anything.
In a UK context the county isn't dense, as it has a density of 110/km2 compared to a UK average of at least 270/km2, however the Welsh average is about 150/km2 and it's much denser than neighbouring Powys (26/km2). Given the ambiguity I agree that it's best to remove the phrase 'sparsely populated' from the lead. Having said that, I do think it's important to give readers the context that Monmouthshire is a rural county which is next to the most populous part of Wales, so unless you object I'll add that back in.
The passage about the AONB is tricky, as the range of hills around the Wye Valley don't appear to have a name and so the current wording is the best I could manage. Please, change it if you can come up with a better version!  A.D.Hope (talk) 18:09, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
I don't see that it being "next to the most populous part of Wales" is particularly relevant or informative.  Urban areas adjoin rural areas.  So what?   Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:56, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
I try to include as much information in the lead as possible to help readers, particularly ones with no knowledge of the subject, and in this case I think knowing that Monmouthshire is directly adjacent to one of Wales' major conurbations is informative. A.D.Hope (talk) 10:15, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm wanting to write a brief section of the historiography of the county, as a prelude to doing an article on the Gwent County History itself. I've put it here, under the title "Historiography". It could certainly have a different title, something that more clearly explains it's a history of the histories of the county; and it could probably also sit in Monmouthshire (historic), or indeed in both places. What I'm aiming for is, in summary, a section outlining all of the important histories/studies of the county, gathered in one place. I recognise that it has too-heavy an architectural focus at present, and I'll look to broaden it out; e.g. George Peterken's Wye Valley for the natural history; Rev. Davies' An ecclesiastical history of Monmouthshire etc. and there must be ones on the industrial history, the social history, etc. All thoughts/comments gratefully received. KJP1 (talk) 09:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Following on from the above, I'm not mad keen on these sections. Places of interest is a bulleted list, with no discernible criteria, primarily sourced to Geograph. I could re-do it in prose, with better sourcing, but I'd still have the criteria problem. Why are Monmouth, Usk and Abergavenny listed but Chepstow not? Why are The Kymin and The Sugar Loaf listed, but The Skirrid not? The Education section seems very odd, given there is nothing in it but a re-direct. What is it trying to cover? Monmouthshire has no universities, as far as I know, - is that unusual for counties? Is Coleg Gwent HE and what sites does it have in Monmouthshire, Usk only [1]? - so you'd be detailing its major colleges/secondary schools? And why single out Education [see below]? KJP1 (talk) 09:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Having now done a quick scan of the Principal area articles, Pembrokeshire looks pretty good as a template, and it is (the only Welsh PA?) GA. If I were to begin to re-cast this, along the Pembrokeshire lines, would that cause any concerns? KJP1 (talk) 15:53, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@KJP1, there is a discussion at WP:UKGEO that raised the idea of creating a guide for Welsh principal areas. Carmarthenshire and Ceredigion are also GAs. Did follow Pemb a bit when re-writing Wrexham (need to re-visit it), so seems using Pemb is a good baseline. DankJae 12:30, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
DankJae - Thanks, I missed those two, though I still like Pembrokeshire the best of the three. But Monmouthshire is a long way off any of them! I think there's much to be said for a "generic" template, but I'm a bit tired of structure/MoS discussions/RFCs at the moment. I'd rather just write something. If Monmouthshire can be got to anything like the other three, I think we'll be quite a way to a de facto "style" for Welsh principal areas. KJP1 (talk) 21:48, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
@KJP1, wish you the best with this article! I'll see if I can help, but I am at the opposite end of the border :/
Not enthusiastic over any "generic template" as I'd expect it would be "strictly enforced" limiting what articles can actually be about, and with three GAs under Wales' belt (plus Clwyd) it seems it is not needed, and how big and small the counties are. Plus considering most county articles are short to being with, anything added is an improvement at this point, whether consistent or not. Of course, if disputes arise then, and only then, would I consider a formal plan. DankJae 21:59, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
Absolutely share the concern re. "strait-jacketing". I think there is a bigger issue about MoS/templates as a constriction that can inhibit editors from writing well about what they want to write about. On the specifics of Monmouthshire, however, I do think there's a discussion to be had about Monmouthshire (historic). Does it actually make sense to have two articles about what is essentially one place? Do other counties do this? Powys does, Radnorshire/Brecknockshire etc. but they are not strong articles, and is it the best approach? Sure, there are some "quirks" about Monmouthshire; essentially the "Welsh/English" debate that ran for about 400 years - and the fact that the present county is only about 60% of the historic; but I think that could still be covered in one article. KJP1 (talk) 22:12, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
@KJP1, I'm of the opinion that they should be separate, as they don't share the same boundaries and were completely abolished. In England it is more common to merge them because historic Lancashire slowly became modern Lancashire with boundary adjustments overtime. But historic Monmouthshire was fully abolished in the 1970s, with the new county merely sharing its name. There is separate Denbighshire (historic) and Denbighshire, and Flintshire (historic) and Flintshire. Funnily enough this exact question is also being discussed at UKGEO somewhat. Just found it easier having separate articles, considering Newport would overwhelm the historic county in the modern day. But ofc, be free to argue combining them, but I fear the idea of a combined Denbighshire! DankJae 22:20, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
Get the concern, but take, say, Blestium. Or Roman Caerleon. They existed a thousand years before Monmouthshire, in any form, existed, but they are both in what we now call Monmouthshire. So, do we cover them here, or in Monmouthshire (historic)? Or both, which seems a bit redundant? At the moment, we don't actually cover them in either. What to do? KJP1 (talk) 22:34, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
The original argument lasting to today is here. And plus most principal areas are recent creations, so they'll have issues with their history most of the time.
@KJP1, In the end, it's the history of the area whatever the name or council it was under, and what's wrong in both? But historic Monmouthshire would be more on the county as it was, so between 1535 and 1974. This article is a modern entity so takes priority. Caerleon is in Newport, so not in modern Monmouthshire, and even in a combined article the "modern definition" takes priority, so Caerleon would be at Newport not here, unless it is relevant to a wider context. DankJae 22:40, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
Not to lecture, but this article and any combined article will have the modern county as the main subject (i.e. for geography, economy, transport), with the historic county largely just a section under its "history". It would be confusing to state Newport is in Monmouthshire, but not Monmouthshire essentially. Like how Lancashire only discusses Liverpool in a historic context, while having sentences like "in modern Lancashire...., but in historic Lancashire.... etc". DankJae 22:46, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

God! - Caerleon's in Newport now (it is)? I really am showing my age. I think we are in complete agreement on the principle. Monmouthshire, as the present county, should have the bulk of the Monmouthshire history - but not including Isca Augusta which now belongs to Newport! Monmouthshire (historic) should cover the 400-odd years of it's existence - so here we would have a section on 1535-1974 with a . Let me see what I can do. KJP1 (talk) 22:56, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
God! - Caerleon's in Newport now (it is)?, to the horror of the locals. DankJae 23:06, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
You are providing a reminder of another long, and painful, debate where I was in the wrong over the location of Tredegar House. It is in Newport, indisputably, but the late, lamented John Newman chose it as the cover image of his Monmouthshire Pevsner. Why he couldn't have used Raglan Castle I shall never understand. KJP1 (talk) 23:14, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
Contents

1	Settlements
2	Geography
2.1	Climate
2.2	Geology
2.3	Coastline and landscape
2.4	Biodiversity
3	History
3.1	Roman period
3.2	Sub-Roman period
3.3	Norman period and Middle Ages
3.4	Tudor and Stuart periods
3.5	18th and 19th centuries
3.6	20th century
4	Demography
4.1	Population
4.2	Language
4.3	Religion
4.4	Ethnicity
5	Governance, politics and public services
6	Transport
7	Economy
7.1	Agriculture
7.2	Fishing
7.3	Mining
7.4	Oil, gas and renewable energy
7.5	Tourism
8	Culture
8.1	Flag
8.2	Built heritage
8.3	The arts and media
8.4	Sport and leisure
9	Notable people
10	Education and health
11	See also
12	Notes
13	References
14	Further reading
15	External links

2021 Baseline report MCC
KJP1 (talk) 17:25, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Monmouthshire - Wales/England debate. KJP1 (talk) 08:43, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
More KJP1 (talk) 08:44, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

If you're re-doing the article, I'll hold off my efforts like at Torfaen and Vale of Glamorgan of adding three images to the infobox per WP:WLSCOUNTYCOLLAGE. And open a discussion here to choose them unless the current one image should be maintained, unless you already have ideas? If you're local, I'd respect your preference! DankJae 17:59, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
DankJae - Seriously, delay nothing. I have absolutely no strong views on IB images, and would be interested in options for multiples. It's obviously very hard to "capture" a county/area in one. Monmouthshire's Kymin view is beautiful, but it's not the entirety of Monmouthshire. As to whether I'm local - that's a question I've thought about for quite a while. I've not lived there for 40 years, and I now live futher away from it than I ever have. But I spent my childhood/young adulthood there, and for me, it still has the pull of "home". And I do love the "little places of a shy county". KJP1 (talk) 22:03, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
Ah right, even if not local, you should have a deeper understanding of what best represents it. I just go with a mix of either "most known element/industry" or "geographic representation" (a image from each part of the county and/or if known for hills, show hills, known for coast, show coast etc). I would likely add some image of hills (possibly met with current image) or the Wye Valley as one contender. And ofc, of the best images that can be found. But am slowly doing the valleys ones so it may be a bit. DankJae 22:07, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
@KJP1, note, county flags are also being discussed at UKGEO lol, with arguments being made for their removal from the infobox or the article entirely. DankJae 22:48, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
Oh dear god. KJP1 (talk) 23:00, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
And having seen that discussion, it is an good example as to why I'm not keen on RfCs. I think I will just put the flag in and see what transpires. KJP1 (talk) 23:47, 5 March 2024 (UTC)


### Railway stations in Monmouthshire
So, we have:

Severn Tunnel Junction railway station at Rogiet on the South Wales Main Line. This says it also serves Magor, but I'm not sure that's right. Our Magor article says it closed in 1964.
Chepstow railway station and Caldicot railway station on the Gloucester–Newport line;
Abergavenny railway station on the Welsh Marches line.
And what/anything else? KJP1 (talk) 09:21, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Nope, MCC confirms there are only 4. KJP1 (talk) 09:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)


### Motorways
Next question. We (don't) have the M50? I think Junction 4 (its end) is around Goodrich, Herefordshire. Assuming that's right, does that just leave:

M4 motorway and the
M48 motorway
Anything else? KJP1 (talk) 09:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Just those for motorways, yes. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:56, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Help! I know very little about sport. I was going to ask User:Kosack for advice but sadly they seem to have left. I can cover Chepstow Racecourse; I can do something on golf courses; although is there much notable beyond the Rolls at The Hendre? I can do something on rowing at Monmouth around Monmouth Rowing Club. But what about rugby, football, cricket? Do any of these have anything really notable to record. We have 

Abergavenny RFC plays in this league, WRU League 2 East;
Monmouthshire County RFC - does this actually exist any more? They appear to have no web presence beyond Facebook and X;
Abergavenny Town F.C.;
Monmouth Town F.C. which plays in this, predominantly western, league, Gwent County League;
Chepstow Town F.C. which plays in this league, Ardal Leagues;
Monmouthshire County Cricket Club - hasn't functioned for nearly a century.
What am I missing, if anything? KJP1 (talk) 13:02, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I think the golf course at St Pierre might be notable, as is that at the Celtic Manor? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:24, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
An eagle for St Pierre, but not for Celtic Manor, which DankJae will tell me is in Newport. Remembering Tredegar House, I know you and I can recall the days when Monmouthshire's sway held west of Newport, and north into the Valleys, but we need to get with the programme! KJP1 (talk) 13:50, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
Lol. If it wasn't for the views of Monmouthshire, no one would bother playing at the Celtic Manor... when I was born there it was the Lydia Beynon Maternity Hospital and it was still in the county!! Martinevans123 (talk) 13:58, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
At least if you take in the views of Monmouthshire across the River Usk, you don't have to look at the Celtic Manor. It was almost worth losing Tredegar House, not to have that in the county. KJP1 (talk) 14:02, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
Although, on a notability point, CM does seem to have rather knocked St Pierre into the shade. It doesn't seem to have hosted anything major since the 1990s. KJP1 (talk) 14:03, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
Money talks, apparently... Martinevans123 (talk) 14:05, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
Martinevans123 - if you have a little time, you couldn't find me a few music references? I've just added Rockfield Studios to the Culture section, but I need suitable cites for the bands. If you can't find the ones I've chosen, just swap them out with others. You will be a much better judge than I as to who the most notable are. Many thanks. KJP1 (talk) 14:17, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
It's a very long list, haha. The person who probably had the most notable connection was Dave Edmunds, who really kicked it all off. But I'll have a look. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:28, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
I think Bohemian Rhapsody must be worth a mention. Even I've heard of that. KJP1 (talk) 14:37, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
Wentwood is part of Newport these days?? Is nothing sacred! Martinevans123 (talk) 09:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
And Goldcliff, Newport! Which I think makes you a Newport lad, rather than a Monmouthshire boy! I'd wanted the Mesolithic footprints but have had to resort to a footnote. KJP1 (talk) 11:41, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
I somehow suspect that all of the farms in Nash, Goldcliff, Whitson, Redwick, Bishton, etc. consider themselves to be still part of Monmouthshire, rather than part of Newport. But it's always been a bit marginal, I guess... Martinevans123 (talk) 11:51, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
Wentwood is shared between Newport and Mons - good write-up for Monmouthshire woodlands in Oliver Rackham's posthumously published tome on SE Wales. Geopersona (talk) 19:25, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

So, I am soon going to hit the issue of how/where the 16th-20th century history of Monmouthshire is best covered. The problem is that, as Robert McCloy almost said (see lead), "No county has been so b*ggered about with in the 20th century as Monmouthshire". So, I think the issue is something like:

History to 1535 - I think that can be covered here, as Monmouthshire didn't exist, although things like the Marcher lordship of Monmouth did, so we are really covering the area;
1535-1974 - here we are in Monmouthshire (historic) territory. But when I look at that article, what it really is, is a history of local government in the county. There's lots on the commotes/hundreds/boroughs/county town/county council etc. And a great deal on the Welsh/English status debate. But nothing on, for example, the social history / industrial revolution and mining (huge in northwest Monmouthshire [historic, not now]) / the Chartist trial / Lady Llangattock and Welsh culture / the Wye Tour / national-local political history (Beaufort/Morgan rivalry etc) / military (Raglan Castle in the Civil War) / and on and on. So is Monmouthshire (historic) really just about the local politics/government?
1974-1996 - Gwent (county) - this, short, article is totally about the local governance.
1996-present - Monmouthshire, but only the 60% odd that it now comprises - so no Blaenau Gwent, Caerphilly County Borough, Newport or Torfaen.
I'm really not sure how to go about this. As an example, Chartism is important in the 19th century history of Monmouthshire, and it crosses our current boundaries, of both time and place, - Westgate Hotel for the insurgency / Shire Hall, Monmouth for the trial. I really don't think I cannot mention it, in a page that purports to be a comprehensive article on Monmouthshire. Is this a Welsh-specific issue? Denbighshire has a separate Denbighshire (historic) article, but Pembrokeshire doesn't. Dorset, the only FA on an English, or Welsh, county as far as I can see, definitely doesn't, which it doesn't need as its governance/boundaries have not been so interfered with as those in Wales, from 1535-1996.
The more I puzzle, the more I wonder if the bulk of the history should be covered here, with Monmouthshire (historic) and Gwent (county) covering the local governance aspects, which broadly reflects the current reality. Sincere apologies for the length of the post. I'd be very interested in other editors' thoughts. KJP1 (talk) 15:58, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

I doubt everything can be included in major detail, so just write as much for each period, and if its too long, split and summarise to the historic county and/or other articles. So some mention could be here, but the detail be at another article if its too long. Because if an event occurred in Newport, makes sense it is also there too. In the end, the information can be both here, Newport, and at the historic article, as it is more beneficial to include it than not.
There have been some separate historic county articles since 2006, per this reasoning. England follows the approach that historic counties do not exist in the modern day, so don't discuss them too much overall. But it seems this separation has never been discussed. DankJae 13:19, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Use Dorset. KJP1 (talk) 15:03, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

History
Prehistoric Wales
List of scheduled monuments in Monmouthshire
Monmouth in the Mesolithic period
Wales in the Roman era
Kingdom of Gwent
Norman invasion of Wales
Monmouth town walls and defences
Welsh Marches
Monmouthshire (historic)
Geography
Geology of Monmouthshire
Governance
Sheriff of Monmouthshire
Lord Lieutenant of Monmouthshire
Economy - Mining (but how best to cover it, esp. as most isn't in "current" Monmouthshire, except Wye Valley/Dean?)
South Wales Coalfield
Monmouthshire and South Wales Coal Owners' Association
Monmouthshire and South Wales Miners' Association
Transport
Monmouthshire and Brecon Canal
Monmouthshire Railway and Canal Company
Wye Valley Railway
Ross and Monmouth Railway
Coleford, Monmouth, Usk and Pontypool Railway
Culture - Built heritage
Grade I listed buildings in Monmouthshire
Grade II* listed buildings in Monmouthshire
Registered historic parks and gardens in Monmouthshire
Culture - Sport and leisure
Wye Valley Walk
Three Castles Walk, Monmouthshire
Other
Cuisine of Monmouthshire
KJP1 (talk) 07:09, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

History needs filling out, when I can unearth the Gwent County History;
Geology;
Notable people? Pembrokeshire has it, Carmarthenshire/Ceredigion don't;
What else?
KJP1 (talk) 12:03, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Under "Sport and leisure" you might want to mention Otter Hole? (I did it myself "some years ago", and I can confirm it was extremely muddy.) Martinevans123 (talk) 12:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
Martinevans123 - Having read the description, I think I would term it Bloody terrifying, but then I have a strong aversion to enclosed spaces! KJP1 (talk) 13:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
It's not very developed vertically... which is just as well, as otherwise you might get the odd racehorse falling in! But it means you don't need much tackle. It's unique in the UK, I think, as it's possible to also get trapped by the tide! I think it's also the only explorable cave in Monmouthshire; Ogof Agen Allwedd is near Llangattock in Powys. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:32, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
In terms of notable people, there was a short dispute at Conwy County Borough, with some added for no clear reason, then was argued that either all notable people should be included or none. So having "notable people" would need some selection criteria, so are there some individuals that are regarded as very important to the entire county not just one place in the county? I believe that is what Pembrokeshire does, somewhat, with sources, but may be too difficult to decide, so may be why Carmarthenshire and Ceredigion don't. DankJae 12:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
Martinevans123/DankJae - I should have thought more before starting this discussion in two places! I agree over "Notables" - they can be like school alumni lists, and I think I can weave mention of the most notable figures into the History section. On a related point, I should flag up the Historiography section. I suspect it's the only county survey in Wales or England that has such a section, and it's only there coz I have a nerdish interest in the topic. Is it really warranted, or should I fold it into the Gwent County History article I have yet to write? I like Otter Hole, of which I'd never heard, but think I shall weave that into the Geology section, which I'm hoping to persuade someone else to write! KJP1 (talk) 13:09, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
That someone is up for it - interestingly Otter Hole has been on my radar though am undecided whether to entertain an entry - caves whose entrances remain open at all stages of the tide seem preferable. The excellent Cambrian Caving Council website (CCC is now Caving Wales, I learn) contains all location details for Mons caves at https://www.cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/registry/CCRm.htm Geopersona (talk) 18:59, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
Great source! How many are there? You should definitely give Otter a go, but you might have go at an odd time, to fit between tides. It's not a long trip, just a muddy one. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:08, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
Fourteen or so in the vicinity of the Wye, then a host of them around the Clydach gorge and Gilwern Hill - perhaps another fifty or so. Of varying lengths though the list does include the likes of Draenen with its 70+km of passage and the resurgence for Daren Cilau. Geopersona (talk) 19:21, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
Haha. I've done (a very modest part of) Daren Cilau, but had assumed it was it Powys (well Brecknock anyway!) Caves don't respect county boundaries, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:49, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
I've prepared a new geological map of the modern county using Adobe Illustrator, similar in style to the one currently presented but showing the geology only within the confines of the boundary as it now stands. I could upload it but have always struggled with understanding copyright issues if wanting to upload material onto Wikimedia. The map is redrawn from BGS material as featured at https://geologyviewer.bgs.ac.uk/ - it seems to fall into OGL - there is info on re-use at https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/doc/open-government-licence/version/3/  cheers Geopersona (talk) 07:14, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Geopersona - Many thanks indeed. I’m very grateful for the effort you’ve gone to in redrafting. Although I appreciate it’s a complex area, I think the copyright position should be fine, under the British Gov.s’s Open Licence. That allows use and adaptation. And I am very confident that someone from Commons will tell us if there is an issue. Can I suggest you upload, and we see if there is any push-back? KJP1 (talk) 09:59, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
I've uploaded a file at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Modern_Mons_bedrock_geology.jpg Open to observations . . . . Geopersona (talk) 17:48, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
My observation is that it is excellent! I think it will be extremely helpful in helping the reader understand the geological underlay of the county. Having the South Wales Coalfield marked will also help me explain the 18th/19th century history. The 20th century boundary changes which took out much of the NW of the historic county make it harder to explain why coal was so important to Monmouthshire’s development. Thank you very much. KJP1 (talk) 06:47, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
On notable people, I am not a huge fan of those in county articles. Counties are a big area, and would capture a lot of people, especially given the propensity to add people who merely lived in a place for a while, as well as those born there. The list either becomes huge or else it is small editor selection which would represent editor selection bias. If someone does it, I won't revert it, but would like to register that caution. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:08, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
Agreed. I should be able to cover the Notables in the History section. A separate section specifically on them would be very subjective, and would encourage the endless, usually uncited, additions you see in other Place/School articles. KJP1 (talk) 14:16, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

With sincere thanks for all the detailed inputs to date, I'm wondering if this article is close to being ready for a GAN? Any final thoughts/concerns/suggestions would be much appreciated. Ghmyrtle - I know you're not a fan of these Wikipedia baubles, and understand that. But, given your knowledge of the county, I would be very interested in any observations you may have - particularly with regard to anything major that you think has been overlooked, and conversely, whether you think I've gone overboard on the detail in any specific areas. KJP1 (talk) 12:43, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm rarely on this site at the moment, but will try to help as and when I can.  I think the fourth paragraph is a little confusing.  I suggest something like: The name is identical to that of the historic county, of which the current local authority covers the eastern three-fifths.  Between 1974 and 1996, the historic county was known as Gwent, recalling the medieval kingdom which covered a similar area.  The present county was formed under the Local Government (Wales) Act 1994, which came into effect in 1996. In his essay.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:34, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Ghmyrtle - Thanks very much. I have amended the lead as suggested. Any other comments would be very welcome. Hope that you and yours are keeping well, and that your absence from here is because you've more interesting things to crowd your days! KJP1 (talk) 07:41, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
Yes thanks, all fine but busy elsewhere - expecting to come back!  Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:48, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

With sincere thanks for all of the many contributions above, I've now put this up for GAN. Taking a look over it, the 21st century bit of the Late 20th and 21st centuries looks a little light. There's basically nothing except the names of the Lord Lieutenant and High Sheriff. While I appreciate Monmouthshire could be considered something of a quiet backwater, surely something of county-wide note has occurred in the 21st century? Any suggestions much appreciated. KJP1 (talk) 12:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Random observations . . . not county-wide (and not necessarily for this section) but of some note I think, in terms of geography (and related aspects), is the dualling of the A465 from Abergavenny to the county boundary near Brynmawr which has made for a significant change in the last few years, so too the Second Severn Crossing, there being a Mons section. And should Llandegfedd Reservoir get a 'look in' (it was 1965)? We might also note that Monmouthshire is a key place for the sport of caving. Ogof Draenen is the second longest cave in Britain - it was only discovered in 1994. The designation of the National Park in 1957 included a part of Mons and it is of course the planning authority for the area it covers, rather than Mons CC - the southern part of the 'Pontypool hook' was added in the mid-60s. Geopersona (talk) 18:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
Many thanks. Those are very helpful indeed, and I'll action them tomorrow. It will have the added benefit of getting Martin off my back over the bloody Otter Hole. KJP1 (talk) 18:39, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Yes, Ogof Draenen is certainly worth a mention. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:02, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
And still surprised no mention of Otter Hole. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:24, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
I shall put Ogof Draenen in the Geology section. If you also want Otter Hole, you will have to do it yourself! KJP1 (talk) 18:35, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Actually, noting Geopersona's point, I shall put it in Sport and leisure, and will try to find space for the Otter Hole. KJP1 (talk) 18:36, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
How very gracious of you. We don't want it to feel too cramped, do we. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
I certainly don't. It's in. Expand away. KJP1 (talk) 21:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Probably enough. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:32, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Thank you both. What a good idea to link 'decorated' to speleothem - I have now done the same where I've inserted this cave in the county's geology article. Of course, the resurgences for waters from Britain's 4th and 5th longest caves are within the Clydach Gorge in Mons of course - I'll add more to the geol article yet but not here. Geopersona (talk) 10:03, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Monmouthshire/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Nominator: KJP1 (talk · contribs) 09:51, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
Reviewer: Tim riley (talk · contribs) 18:42, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Starting initial read-through. Declaration of interest: the nominator is a good friend of mine IRL, but I have had nothing to do with this article and will review strictly against the prescribed criteria.


### Comments after first read-through
Truth to tell I wonder why this article is up for GA: FAC would seem to me the more suitable place, but be that as it may, here, just using the GA criteria, are my few comments. All are merely advisory and there's nothing on which I think I can or should insist, but I hope they are helpful.

Lead
"is a county in the south east of Wales" but "In the southeast is the Wye Valley AONB" and in the main text  "south-east Wales in the Iron Age"" – here and throughout you could make your choice of two words, one word or one hyphenated word consistent for such geographical terms
Pre-History
"examples include important remains" – seems an odd phrase: what makes these remains more important than any others?
"An major hoard of Bronze Age axes" – indefinite article could do with a tweak
Roman period
"The Roman conquest of Britain began in AD 43, and within five years they had reached the borders..." – "they" being the Romans, but that isn't, grammatically, what your sentence says
Sub-Roman period
"the Kingdom of Gwent was established" but later " The kingdom of Gwent frequently fought" – could do with consistent upper and lower case and so could the later "the Kingdom of Morgannwg... and its western neighbour, the kingdom of Glywysing". (And later still the Kingdom of England.)
"Siting their capital at Caerwent, the settlement gave its name to the kingdom" – crashing dangling modifier.
Industrialisation
"in the South Wales Coalfield", but a para or so later "exploit the South Wales coalfields"" – more conflicting capitalisations
Society, art and science
"William Wordsworth committed it to verse; while Samuel Taylor Coleridge almost died there." – I'd be careful about "while" here: you just mean "and", I think, rather than that WW wrote and STC nearly died simultaneously.
War
"making it the second oldest regiment in the British Army." – another place where you might consider the consistency of your hyphenation.
Gwent 1974–1996
"Gwent voted heavily against the proposals" – and the proposals were...?
Late 20th and 21st centuries
"which have mainly ceremonial functions such as the Lords Lieutenant and High Sheriffs" – lords lieutenant and high sheriffs are not functions but functionaries. (Not sure about the capitalisation, either. I would, but would the MoS?)
"The current Lord Lieutenant of Gwent from 2016 is Brigadier Robert Aitken. The current High Sheriff for 2023–2024 is Professor Simon J. Gibson" – looks a bit dodgy to me from the point of view of WP:DATED. Might be as well to future-proof the prose as much as possible by saying in year XYZ and ABC these gents were appointed. "Current" is perhaps pushing your luck.
Biodiversity
"very rapid decline in the 21st century due to river pollution" – In AmE "due to" is accepted as a compound preposition on a par with "owing to", but in BrE it is not universally so regarded. "Owing to" or, better, "because of" is safer.
On second thoughts, scrub that. It was a decline that was due to pollution, and so the phrasing is impeccable as it stands. Tim riley talk 13:04, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
National representation
"the incumbent, David TC Davies" – the manual of style would have this as "David T. C. Davies", with spaces and full stops.
Demography
"It remains one of the least densely-populated of Wales' principal areas" – very odd way of writing the possessive, here and later. This is from the current edition of Fowler: Names ending in -s: Use 's for the possessive case in names and surnames whenever possible; in other words, whenever you would tend to pronounce the possessive form of the name with an extra iz sound, e.g. Charles's brother, St James's Square, Thomas's niece, Zacharias's car.
Employment
"Employers are generally small" – about five foot five? It's their firms that are small.
Built and landscape heritage
"an abbey and a number of castles (and another "number of" later)" – this is a particular bugbear of mine. "One" is a number; so is "a million". Do you mean a few, loads and loads, or somewhere in between?
Historiography
"Among the first was William Gilpin's Observations on the River Wye and several parts of South Wales, etc. relative chiefly to Picturesque Beauty" – we've had the full title – all 17 words of it – earlier, and I suggest you consider abbreviating it this second time around to the first five words.
And now I look at it again, your upper and lower case don't quite work. Gilpin's title page is all in caps, which doesn't give us a steer, and WP's rule is to use normal title case for titles unless there is some compelling reason to the contrary. So the title, if given in full, should I think be Observations on the River Wye and Several Parts of South Wales, etc. Relative Chiefly to Picturesque Beauty, though I'm willing to negotiate. Tim riley talk 13:13, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Notes
"Meoslithic footprints, dated to about 8,000 years ago" – spelling?
That's all from me. This article is plainly of GA quality and I offer the above suggestions merely for your consideration. I shan't bother putting the review on formal hold (unless you wish it) and so over to you ... Tim riley talk 20:24, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Tim riley - Tim, greatly appreciated. As ever, you have identified an embarrassing number (I refuse to say how many!) of my grammatical howlers. I think I've made all the necessary corrections in this edit, [2]. Can I trouble you to just review how I've dealt with the county's toffs. We now have:
"The title of Gwent continues as a preserved county, one of eight such counties in Wales, which have mainly ceremonial functions such as the lord lieutenancy and high shrievality. In 2024 the lord lieutenant is Brigadier Robert Aitken, appointed in 2016, and the high sheriff is Professor Simon J. Gibson."
Does that work? I note your kind comments re. FAC and shall give that some serious thought. I also note Dr. B's very fair point below, regarding the inadequacy of the lead. I shall look to address that shortly but, as a summation, I don't think it needs to hold up your review, unless you disagree. Many thanks again. KJP1 (talk) 18:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Comment: Looks great, but I think the lead needs improvement and to say something about culture, notable landmarks/buildings, education, health and sport to summarise the article.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:45, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
A very fair point. Will address over the next few days. And good to hear from you. All best wishes for the New Year. KJP1 (talk) 22:13, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Dr. Blofeld - Have had a go at expanding the lead to better cover the article content. Let me know if you think I've missed anything. KJP1 (talk) 14:30, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
Comment: Did you know.... that "Ogof Draenen, the second longest cave in Britain, located North of Blaenavon, was discovered in 1994?" lol Martinevans123 (talk) 10:34, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Your caves are in now! Happy New Year! KJP1 (talk) 22:14, 30 December 2024 (UTC)


### Promoting to GA
Your changes all strike me as advantageous. (I'm much taken with "shrievality", a word wholly new to me.) Dr B, who was my guide, philosopher and friend when I did my one and only geographical FAC, knows of what he speaks, and though the lead didn't strike me as inadequate it wouldn't harm to flesh it out further, especially if you are going to FAC in due course. All ways round it seems to me that the present text – with admirable illustrations – more than meets the GA criteria. On a final (for now) canter through I was chuffed to see that the wonderful Franco Taruscio's Walnut Tree is still going, under new management, though I think perhaps "contemporary" for Gilli Davies is ambiguous – contemporary with thee and me or with Lady Llanover? – but otherwise all looks tickety-boo to me. – Tim riley talk 19:12, 30 December 2024 (UTC) 
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose quality: 

B. MoS compliance: 

Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. References to sources: 
Exceptionally well referenced
B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary: 
Well referenced
C. No original research: 

Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects: 

B. Focused: 

Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias: 

Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc: 

Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales: 
Well illustrated
B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions: 
Well illustrated
Overall:
Pass or Fail: 

I found this an interesting and instructive article to review. It gives me much pleasure to affirm its GA-status. I hope you will take the article to FAC and if you do, please ping me. – Tim riley talk 19:12, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

I've just whittled down the lead a fair bit, as while the information it contained was good it had grown a little long in comparison to that of other counties. Less importantly, it had also drifted a little from the general pattern of Welsh county articles. 
At the same time, I know @KJP1, who is responsible for the expanded lead, has put a lot of effort into improving the article (which is definitely in much better shape than it was) and so didn't want to make the change without notification. I'm very happy to talk through any issues. A.D.Hope (talk) 22:21, 16 November 2025 (UTC)