# Talk:Heraldry of Middle-earth

I'm not aware of the Tolkien Estate giving permission for use of the Tolkien heraldic illustrations on the Web. They've been widely scanned and published. For all I know, I've used some of them myself somewhere. But is such use acceptable under Wikipedia guidelines? It seems the Tolkien articles might be egregiously violating copyright if these scans aren't deemed acceptable by Wikipedia. Michael Martinez (talk) 15:13, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

They would not give CC-by-SA permission, I think, so the only alternative is for us to make fair use of Tolkien's images with fair-use rationales on each one used. Where Tolkien has instead described a heraldic device in words, and an artist has interpreted that description and made their own CC-by-SA image, then we can freely use that artist's work. A third case is where a design is a simple piece of geometry, such as a rune, which Wikipedia takes to be ineligible for copyright. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:36, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for the response. Unless someone else raises an objection, I'll accept that rationale for now. I just wanted to be sure there was a discussion about this.Michael Martinez (talk) 15:41, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
Believe me, there are plenty of editors who devote enormous energy to deleting fair-usage images. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:00, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

The attached image is an interesting curiosity. I guess the first thing to say after that is that it certainly forms no part of the "Heraldry OF Middle-earth". The next thing is that there is no suggestion of any connection between it and any of the heraldic devices of Middle-earth, or we might have been able to include it in an 'Origins' section. I think it will therefore have to stay here on the talk page for now. Perhaps if some scholar writes about it ("his interest in his personal heraldry ... bla bla ... Middle-earth") then we'll be able to do something with it.  Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:17, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

It appears to be an inaccurate reproduction of the Tolkien family coat of arms (probably adapted from an unauthorized attempt to reconstruct them based on the text of a Tolkien letter).
I don't see why a "scholar" would be needed to justify mention of the Tolkien arms somewhere on Wikipedia. Their existence was confirmed by the Tolkien Estate years ago. This tendency to favor "scholarship" in the Wikipedia Tolkien articles has created a huge bias in the content. Wikipedia standards allow the inclusion of newsworthy details that are covered by mainstream media. I don't know if this particular item meets that criterion but let's ease up on the "only scholarly sources" POV, okay? That's not in keeping with Wikipedia's standards.
That said, nor do I see how mention of the Tolkien family coat of arms is merited in an article about the heraldry of Middle-earth.Michael Martinez (talk) 13:42, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
Somewhere else perhaps, but to link it to this heraldry article would need a reliable source. I think a scholarly discussion would be the most likely thing to happen, but if a newspaper or a museum curator (say) reliably reported something that JRRT or Christopher T said, then of course we could use that. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:47, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
It's not a newsworthy topic, so far as I know. The Tolkien Estate confirmation came indirectly via a communication between their attorney and a blogger who published the full text of the letter in which Tolkien discussed his family history and the coat of arms. I don't know of any scholarly discussions of the family coat of arms. It's far removed from his professional and literary work.Michael Martinez (talk) 15:08, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

I reverted a change made by User:Rs wrangler, who changed "Meglin" to "Maeglin". The paper cited (by Catalin Hriban) is discussing "The Fall of Gondolin", where the character's name is in fact "Meglin". Some readers may not be aware that the character names were changed as the stories evolved.
But I wonder if the editors who have been updating the Tolkien articles have discussed canonicalization of name spelling. I don't believe it would be appropriate to substitute one spelling for another just for the sake of consistency. But I'd like a little clarification if anyone is listening today. Thanks.Michael Martinez (talk) 12:24, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

This article written for The Heraldry Society in 2022 may be of interest. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 15:49, 14 January 2024 (UTC)