# Talk:Jimmie Rodgers

Jimmie Rodgers: I'm concerned the non-free files on this page don't exactly have the best rationals. See File:Waiting for a Train by Jimmie Rodgers.ogg (two NAs), File:Blue Yodel No. 1 intro.ogg (two NAs), File:Waiting for a Train by Jimmie Rodgers.ogg (two NAs), File:T.B.Blues - Jimmie Rodgers.ogg ("Not replaceable with free media because" and Respect for commercial opportunities rationals don't make sense here), File:Blue Yodel No. 1 (yodel).ogg (two NAs), and File:Chemirocha III.ogg ("Not replaceable with free media because" and Respect for commercial opportunities rationals don't make sense here). Not sure how it passed GA with the copyright issues. Not sure if this is enough to pull or not. Therapyisgood (talk) 02:20, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for the heads up. Should there be a discussion on this somewhere? Like at Talk:Jimmie Rodgers? Schwede66 04:25, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
FYI @GDuwen and BennyOnTheLoose:. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:57, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
I've swapped the hook out to Prep 2 for the time being to give more time for discussion. My feeling is that the clips just need to be stripped out. I don't think it's necessary to have such a thing on this article, you don't generally see that, and it certainly shouldn't be used on two articles.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:24, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
Copied this from WP:ERRORS. Pings for @Therapyisgood, Schwede66, GDuwen, BennyOnTheLoose, AirshipJungleman29,  and Amakuru. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:53, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for pulling, Amakuru. Therapyisgood, when you raise such a fundamental issue, it's not good enough to raise this issue at Errors only; it needs an article talk page discussion so that those who take an interest in the topic can do something about it. I would have thought that me asking you about the lack of discussion would have spurred you on to start that discussion. Schwede66 21:47, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
@Schwede66: Had closed the computer to fall asleep to get up for work and didn't see your comment. Therapyisgood (talk) 23:22, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
@Therapyisgood, Schwede66, BennyOnTheLoose, AirshipJungleman29,  and Amakuru. I replaced the "n.a" with a line that should be descriptive enough for "Waiting for a Train" and "Blue Yodel No. 1" (someone already took care of the others). I did not consider it an issue at the time since I'm uploading the files under fair use, and there's more than enough to justify their use for educational purposes (stated under "Purpose of use in article" in all cases). 
So, if the material is copyrighted (the actual reason why it's being uploaded under fair use) and its educational purpose on the article is stated, does that not make the replaceability field redundant? It is not the first time someone raises the issue, I had it happen in some other article a long time ago. There is probably a good reason why "n.a" is automatically placed on the template if you don't fill it up (I did not write it myself).--GDuwenHoller! 18:20, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Respectfully, there is not at all "more than enough to justify their use" here. WP:NFCC makes it clear that use of such files is to be kept to an absolute minimum, and I think a maximum of one extract of a song by Jimmie Rodgers would be more than enough for readers to understand the style of music he performed. "Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information". Incidentally, the Blue Yodel song was published in 1927 so if I understand the Public domain in the United States article correctly, that's actually already public domain. So my suggestion would be to re-upload File:Blue Yodel No. 1 intro.ogg and File:Blue Yodel No. 1 (yodel).ogg as public domain content, and then leave it at that. It would be extremely unusual and a breach of the NFCC guidelines to assert that any fair use audio is required for reader understanding of this topic.  — Amakuru (talk) 20:04, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
In that case, we could probably just remove "Waiting for a Train" for the time being. I see that according to Cornell "Blue Yodel No. 1" should currently be PD as you say. I guess "Waiting For a Train" falls into that 95-year period (which would next year make it ok to upload to it Commons). I remember hearing something about an extension to 100 years, but I don't seem to find anything about it...
Anyhow, I'll try to take care of those sound samples shortly.--GDuwenHoller! 20:36, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
@Amakuru:, @GDuwen: I wasn't concerned so much with the number of fair use recordings (although if Ammakuru has issues with this that's totally fine), I don't think the 1927 sound recordings are PD. Please wait before uploading to the Commons. According to here, "For recordings first published between 1923-1946, the additional time period is 5 years after the general 95-year term." So for instance our article 2027_in_public_domain#United_States says "Sound recordings that were published in 1926 and [...] will [...] enter the public domain.". I would say any sound recording published in 1927 wouldn't be public domain for a while yet (2028) under the Music Modernization Act. Alternatively, you can just link to licensed versions of the songs on YouTube for instance to demonstrate his yodeling instead of fair using the clip. Therapyisgood (talk) 22:55, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
The "NAs" in the current fair use boxes aren't acceptable though, so replace those with actual rationals. Therapyisgood (talk) 22:58, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia:NFCCE point 3 all NAs should be replaced with actual rationals. Therapyisgood (talk) 23:01, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
Given that the one I thought is public domain actually unfortunately isn't, I think we're back to having just one fair use clip in the article per the "minimal usage" clause of NFCC. Whichever one clip you think is most indicative of his work and most necessary for readers in understanding it. Linking legitimate copies on YouTube as an external link at the bottom seems a good plan too, if you want readers to have the option to listen to it. Obviously the rationales need to be brought up to scratch too, per above. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 10:41, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
Aha! I remember I read something about the extension making it 100 years. Well, it's only a few to go in order to reinstate most of these files by uploading a full version (that counting that the companies that own the catalogs don't attempt to extend it). I'll just leave the "Blue Yodel No. 1" and the excerpt of his yodeling in that case.--GDuwenHoller! 18:34, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
Amakuru With the removal of the excessive use of non-free files, is it now enough to reinstate the hook now?--GDuwenHoller! 17:57, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
My concerns about the number of fair use clips are just about assuaged now... I would have preferred one only, but if you really think two are absolutely necessary then so be it. It's close enough to the expiry point that I'm not sure there will be too many concerns right now anyway. However, and Therapyisgood will correct me if I'm wrong, I think you need to eliminate all of the "n.a." rationales from File:Blue Yodel No. 1 intro.ogg and File:Blue Yodel No. 1 (yodel).ogg including those in commercial opportunity etc. Each of these NFCC points must be individually satisfied. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 20:14, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
Amakuru I see your point, forgot about those. Well, I replaced the last two "n.a.". I just plan to use two clips since I want to separately illustrate the yodel and the singing style. It's only a matter of time until I can restore all the files with their full version in the coming years anyhow.--GDuwenHoller! 18:02, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I didn't want to edit the article without asking first, but isn't that Jimmie sitting on the far right of the image? Rihdiugam (talk) 02:17, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

@Rihdiugam: That was Claude Grant. Jimmie was balding (you kind of get to see it in some pictures, though you'll rarely see one of him without a hat like on this particular case). But the best way to recognize him from the others in my opinion is probably the shape of his protruding ears (and that band sure could hear!) Jimmie's were pointing out.--GDuwenHoller! 18:31, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
Thanks a million for the reply GDuwen! That's interesting about the ears. It was Dr. John's version of Waiting for a Train that brought me here btw. Just in case your stuck for something to listen to :-) Rihdiugam (talk) 22:25, 31 January 2024 (UTC)