# Talk:Christian metal

I can't believed he's not even mentioned on the article! He is one of the most prominent examples of the topic. Became a Christian and left Korn. Now he plays Christian metal. Should definitely be added there.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.53.197.135 (talk) 05:06, 22 July 2010 (UTC) 

I don't think he's one of the most prominent examples of the topic. He has released one album since his conversion and is about to release a second. The album did not sell well. However, he should be mentioned. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:36, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Welch is back with Korn. Korn is not a Christian band. AngelsExist88 (talk) 15:43, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
But his side project still is definitely Christian metal. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:42, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

The 'unreliable sources' in this article is an issue that was brought up when it was nominated for a featured article two years a go. It appears that there are still no third party books or complete articles about the History of Christian metal, the section with currently most of the first party sources, although it has plenty of Allmusic references. However, the other sections have quite reliable sources by general music press and secular scholars.
Is the tag really necessary? What should be done? Remove all the first party references and info?  The history section would end up being rather short, which is not a bad thing, but what options are there? With a quick google search, it appears some articles have clearly used this wikipage or its soures for reference, such as one on examiner.com which is blacklisted by wikipedia--Azure Shrieker (talk) 19:08, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't trying to step into a hornets nest. I actually did not notice that there were third party sources, I put the tag up because I saw some references to webzines that have been deemed unreliable. While personally feel that they are accurate, I have learned through trial and error that they are considered unreliable. So what to do? I'm not sure. I will try to get around to cleaning everything up myself, but that might take a while. If the consensus here is that the tag is unnecessary, someone can feel free to remove it.--3family6 (talk) 22:20, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
^It's ok, thanks for clearing that up. Let's leave the tag for a while and see if it attracts some specialist to contribute to this article as The Christian metal WikiProject has been quite dead since 2008. It's true that whenever possible, reliable third party sources should be used. The webzine references aren't very reliable, yeah, should be avoided. Feel free to clean up the article if you wish. What sources in particular? Point them out and I'll remove them. There are almost 200 sources so it's getting difficult to navigate...--Azure Shrieker (talk) 23:42, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
You are welcome. Some of the sources I noticed were several by Tartarean Desire (refs 17, 105 and 6, 116). There also a bunch by TheWhippingPost, which I think would be unreliable unless the site was run by an author or musician. There might be some others that I do not know about. With the Metal for Jesus! references, I am trying to determine if Jonsson is a reliable source, which I think he is.
I am hoping to put a lot of work into a lot of Christian metal pages as my college semester has ended, so I might be able to find some better sources.
Thanks,
--3family6 (talk) 02:55, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
P.S. The main reason I put the tag up is what you mentioned above, that maybe someone will try to improve the article.--3family6 (talk) 13:45, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Thanks again, I took the time to remove 19,578 kilobits worth of redundancy and unreliable sources. The Whipping Post and The Metal for Jesus may be reliable from the scene's point of view but not from Wikipedia's perspective. I believe they should either be removed or replaced with reliable sources. What about No Life 'til Metal, reliable or not?--Azure Shrieker (talk) 18:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Wow, you've done quite a bit. I hope I do not look like I am trying to shift all of the grunt work on someone else, right now I'm just working on sourcing the list of Christian metal bands. As to No Life 'til Metal, I am not sure. Scott Waters is the vocalist of Ultimatum and the reunion band Once Dead which gives him some authority, but his site does not have other editors with oversight. I guess what is important is media coverage, and right now I don't really know one way or the other. I have been using him as a back up source for the list of Christian metal bands as I think he is a reliable source.
Thanks for putting in this hard work,
--3family6 (talk) 18:59, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Thanks to both of you for your hard work. I have no opinion on what would and wouldn't constitute a WP:RS in this area. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:12, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
You're welcome, though I have not done much (yet!). Azure Shrieker and Blackmetalbaz deserve the thanks.--3family6 (talk) 21:03, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
It was about time to fix this anyway. The article got out of hands with name-dropping and original research -- wikiarticles are meant to be general overviews, not minibooks. Do you see something in the article that appear unreliable or unnecessary?--Azure Shrieker (talk) 12:27, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I asked about three major sources to see if they pass WP:RS, and the results are that Jesus Freak Hideout is reliable, No Life 'til Metal is not reliable, and Metal for Jesus! might be reliable, depending on what Jonsson's role was in the Metal Bible project. The (still ongoing?) discussion can be seen here:[1] --3family6 (talk) 13:40, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the info.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 17:53, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
@Azure Shrieker it seems there still is work to do. At least source 61 seems to me a self-published personal website, and I am very unsure if using that meets wikipedia standards. 46.15.65.138 (talk) 11:13, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I have done some snooping around, and I have found some info that can help in sourcing this article.
First source: TheWhippingPost This source should be reliable because the creator, Matt Morrow, is a regular contributor to HM Magazine, and therefore qualifies as having a work in the relevant field published by a reliable third-party. Examples: [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7].
Second source: Metal for Jesus! (again!) Jonsson's work on The Metal Bible probably does not count because it appears that his ministry is the publisher/distributor. However, he has authored concert reviews published by HM Magazine [8], [9]. This should qualify him as a reliable source.
Third source: JesusMetal This one I am not sure about. What could qualify this website is that the creator has recently started up a print magazine called Untombed Magazine. What I am not sure about is whether the publisher, Divinemetaldistro.com, is a reliable third-party source.
Hope this helps out,
--3family6 (talk) 21:52, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

It should, but HM magazine casts a very wide net as far as who is and isn't considered Christian. For instance, U2 made No. 1 on their top 100 Christian rock albums of all time. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:00, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
I have noticed that about HM Magazine as well, but this does not change its status as a reliable source, and as a reliable source, a regular journalist for the magazine can be considered reliable.--3family6 (talk) 00:57, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Clarification: HM may not always be accurate about whether a band is Christian, and it is important to use other sources as well if showing that a band is Christian. But in terms of overall reliability, it meets the criteria, which can qualify a journalist for the magazine as a reliable source as well.--3family6 (talk) 13:07, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Update: Metal for Jesus! should be reliable because in addition to Jonsson writing for HM Magazine, his site has received academic coverage: [10], [11] As long as the site is not used in band biographies, it should be okay.--3family6 (talk) 13:07, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Heh, so it was a mistake to remove them... The interesting thing is, also both this Wikipedia article and the Finnish version have received academic coverage by the same scholar and approved for PhD. The chapters on the history of Christian metal cite the wikipage urls several times.[12] Perhaps they are seen quite reliable then (or it was a compromise simply because there are not many sources available), as usually Wikiarticles aren't accepted as sources in school papers.--Azure Shrieker (talk) 15:05, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Is that source already used in the article? If not, it could be a treasure trove for this page, and may be even good enough for an offshoot page (maybe about the Scandinavian Christian metal movement?). Nice work. That is interesting how he sourced Wikipedia. I have found that many college professors at my college allow Wikipedia sources, if used appropriately.--3family6 (talk) 18:18, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
No, it is not used. Only the overview from the back cover. I did not know it was available as a pdf until now. A year a go I saw it as a print format in some online store for some 40-50 euros which was a bit too much then. Interesting that Wikipedia is accepted by college professors, though the peer review standard here did get very high during the last couple of years, and I have seen quite a few university students speak highly of English Wikipedia. Anyways, there's 300 pages worth of material to improve this page. And that offshoot page suggestion is excellent. I haven't yet read the whole book though. --Azure Shrieker (talk) 19:59, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

It's difficult to justify NFCC for an article like this, because it is possible to create and freely license Christian metal music ("No free equivalent" criterion). Regardless, the amount of non-free content in the previous version was clearly excessive because of "Minimal usage" requirement. (t · c) buidhe 21:07, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks @Buidhe: For the record, I asked the editor to explain why the media links were removed a bit more clearly. NFCC is Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:13, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

You forgot some of the most important bands from 90s like Unashamed and focal point and Unashamed these guys were really important part of the scene 2600:1700:24D0:8160:FD2D:E270:10BF:B844 (talk) 03:13, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

The term "white metal" is usually just used to describe unblack metal. 76.137.118.7 (talk) 16:10, 25 September 2022 (UTC)