# Talk:DJ Kool Herc

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I honestly must raise some points here.  First of all, at the end of the 1980's, Herc was a mythical figure.   He was almost never (if ever) recounted in clearly stated first-hand accounts by anyone, and no one seemed to know who, where, or even IF he was. Then a whole wave of people started  appearing with first hand stories of their "homey" Herc (reconstructing much?) Now all the sudden he's a real person and all the sources for his identity are dubious "Bio's" and self-serving business partnerships.  I'm sorry but I'm not going to buy this that easily.  I really want to see some substantiated and objective sourcing on this matter.  As it stands, the Wikipedia is in danger of creating an perpetuating mythology and I advise some experts (which I am admittedly not) to take this page to task and make sure it's factually represented.  If Herc is really Herc, then the story is gravely lacking and we are doing his accomplishments no favors with a sub-par biography of a hugely influential (and controversial) figure.  I hope someone else out there feels the same and comes their senses about this one.--207.69.138.13 20:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

What is dubious about the biographies cited in this article? Feel free to consult the  other sources listed in the article or to find sources crediting another or other DJs with originating break-beat DJing. Hyacinth 08:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Also see http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Kool_DJ_Herc, which has a not too positive quote which we could add to the article, and it'd be easy to cite as the source is already used in this article. Hyacinth 09:00, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
In the first edition of Toop's early book on hip hop, Rap Attack—which was 1985, I believe—Grandmaster Flash and particularly Afrika Bambaataa were scrupulous in giving credit to Herc as the originator of this form of DJing, and therefore their direct antecedent (with Toop evincing mild surprise that they should so carefully do so, given the competitive nature of hip hop generally). And in fact, Bambaataa had already explained this to Steven Hager for Hager's 1982 piece in the Village Voice, "Afrika Bambaataa's Hip-Hop". Before that, no one had bothered to ask. 86.44.30.16 (talk) 00:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
the 1984 bbc documentary "beat this a hiphop history" seems to think he is real.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.47.183 (talk) 21:36, 1 February 2012 (UTC) 

this needs bringing into line with the wikipedia way of doing things. bracketed phrases such as '(Chang 1995)' are not clear. what does this refer too? is it a reference to a source? they either need changing to the format wikipedia uses or deleting completely
Inzy 19:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

This article has been renamed from Kool DJ Herc to DJ Kool Herc as the result of a move request.

Please add the title that is most credited to Herc the 'father of Hip hop'  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ditc (talk • contribs) 22:53, 13 February 2010 (UTC) 

Does "hip hop music" always mean the same thing as "rap music?"  Does rap music contain some speaking and some singing, or just all speaking?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skysong263 (talk • contribs) 05:03, 13 March 2010 (UTC) 

That looks like vandalism to me. 68.225.171.64 (talk) 04:31, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
It's not vandalism. Kool Herc's dancers were Keith & Kevin, a.k.a. The Nigger Twins Bxdale83 (talk) 20:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Shouldn't this be Bronx, NY rather than Kingston, Jamaica? He didn't begin DJing until he was in the Bronx.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.248.156.100 (talk) 03:33, 17 April 2013 (UTC) 

I'm guessing afterschool parties is what's meant, though perhaps Herc was a champion of education? Gimelgort (talk) 00:37, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

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I was asked to come here to discuss a well documented and sourced fact about by a reporter/writer/researcher at the Daily News which clarifies Herc being only popularized as the creator but not actually being the creator, in order that the true story of hip hop be told. Here is the link at the Daily News
Now, this isn’t new news so would the addition of something like “Herc is popularized as the Father of Hip Hop although several before and after him had a role in creating Hip Hop.” 
This statement is far more accurate, especially since several of the other creators before Herc’s party and who he learned from are still alive, who had a hand in him and other parties before him as stated in the news article that were hip hop parties.

Just an additional note that Kool Herc stated this himself several times, even to the Schomberg Center on camera, that it started in 1970 and only hit the top and exploded like an earthquake in 1973. 

Right now, the way it’s written is popularized fiction or legend instead of factual journalism just to make the distinction. WayMaQueen (talk) 13:39, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

The available sources are in contradiction to each other. Many name Herc and his sister as Cindy as the progenitors of hip hop culture,[1][2][3][4][5][6] while a very few sources acknowledge that other musicians were doing similar things around the same time, diluting the idea that Herc and Cindy were first. So how do we present the material in proportion? I think the few sources talking about other artists should be presented in the article body, naming each one per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, treating each one like a contradictory viewpoint. Binksternet (talk) 15:53, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
From research it’s not a contradiction. Herc himself stated hip hop was around in 1970 but it was underground. This doesn’t detract from Herc at all. It only correctly adds the other creators that were throwing hip hop parties as well before Herc was an adult. Herc,Coke la Rock, Kool DJ Dee and others added their own “creations” and skills to Hip hop, and even the nameless before Herc as it was underground. Herc repeatedly says this.. that it was underground and that’s where he learned it. Again he is popularly known as the Father but as the definition explains when someone is popularly known as Father of something, it doesn’t mean he or she created it. Hip Hop has several creators at its start, even dating back to Pigmeat, gangsters like Black Spades and more. Herc stated this too as well. It’s a popular name for Herc but no one man could ever create Hip Hop. I even remember it. It was several and not at a back to school jam. Take care tho. Just trying to add facts. Just like with any history and science, once better information is gathered, it should be used, not considered war. It’s just history. WayMaQueen (talk) 17:25, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
I’m sorry. I don’t know if I added the link right but in case I didn’t… [7]https://www.newspapers.com/image/408777811/?clipping_id=132240597&fcfToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJmcmVlLXZpZXctaWQiOjQwODc3NzgxMSwiaWF0IjoxNjk1NDkxMTAzLCJleHAiOjE2OTU1Nzc1MDN9.GU5Bgaqe_-8IdXYjWLjiLHxJ2DEqcTAuMceZK4Dy2Ss
Again history isn’t saying Herc didn’t contribute or diminishing him. What history says is that in video, literature and out of Herc’s mouth is that it was already here before his party. He is popularly known for it because it had cracked the surface, came from out of its “underground” state at 73-75. It was an African American music culture already, but no one “outside” paid any attention until those years. WayMaQueen (talk) 17:52, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
Might be a good idea to take a look at Honorific nicknames in popular music for other examples, like Chuck Berry ("Father of Rock and Roll"), Elvis Presley ("King of Rock and Roll"), etc.  Maybe change it to "nicknamed as" rather than "known as"?  S0091 (talk) 18:13, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
This is a good idea. It just needs to be clarified is all in some way. WayMaQueen (talk) 18:40, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
I went ahead and made the changes but no issue if folks disagree.  I will note currently there is nothing in the body or sources (from a brief look) that supports "Founder of Hip-Hop" (lead should summarize the body) so maybe that should be removed and just leave Father?  S0091 (talk) 18:58, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
True. There isn’t anything in the body that could support it because the foundation was already being laid prior to and at the same time as Herc as noted by credible sources and Herc added to it as others did. Founder could actually be removed. He was however actually popularized as “Father” because Father is a popularized title but doesn’t necessarily mean founder as also stated by Wikipedia. WayMaQueen (talk) 23:09, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
Here's the thing, if the majority of sources did describe him as "Founder" then that is what article should state (true or not) because Wikipedia simply summarizes what sources say.  In this case, it does not appear to be supported so it should be removed.  Looking at some of the sources provided by @Binksternet the sources agree the party is a foundation (or creation) "myth".   Per the NPR piece, "It isn't that this party in 1973 didn't take place – but Jay Quan and other historians point out that some of the same innovations were going on at other parties in other places."  While there are sources that state Campbell "invented" hip-hop (DW above, this cited NYMag piece), sources are more consistent in describing him as a pioneer along with others (at least the sources I am able to access). S0091 (talk) 17:00, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

This is probably too small of a matter to be wasting others' time with, but the article currently says (in the first paragraph), "[T]his breakbeat DJing, using funky drum solos, formed the basis of hip hop music". This seems inaccurate to me because it wasn't drum SOLOS that formed the basis of early hip hop. That's not to say that drum solos were never part of it, but rather it was primarily the instrumental passages (which prominently featured heavy drum and bass passages) that DJs like Herc isolated. If you listen to very early hip hop tracks, the sampled portions (which correspond to the sections live DJs would isolate on their turntables) are almost never drum solos. They are drum, bass and (typically) keyboard passages.
Sorry if it's inappropriate for me to be posting this here. My only point is that it would be more accurate to say "drum and bass segments" than to say "drum solos". 12.88.240.222 (talk) 18:19, 25 December 2024 (UTC)