# Talk:Falafel

This paragraph in the introduction is inappropriate and should be removed:
The Palestinian chickpea-only version of the falafel has also been adopted into Israeli cuisine, where it now features prominently and is proclaimed as the country's national dish – a situation which has been lamented by Palestinians, Lebanese, and other Arab groups alike as amounting to cultural appropriation.  82.19.192.8 (talk) 17:40, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Why do you object to it? It is well sourced and I believe factually correct. Do you deny that there is debate about the cultural appropriation of Arab foods by Israelis? The phrasing is I think WP:NPOV, not taking sides on the issue. --Macrakis (talk) 17:55, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
Citation needed that Israel appropriated food. Israel is a middle eastern culture just like the others. 64.121.35.108 (talk) 13:00, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Hi Macrakis, I think there is debate because there are Jews from several Arab lands who have settled in Israel therefore, not true cultural appropriation. Either more sources or different wording is needed. Chavmen (talk) 03:58, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
this is blatantly antisemitic Davidatlasdavidatlas (talk) 14:28, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Here are some constructive suggestions and comment:
The Palestinian chickpea-only version of the falafel has also been adopted into Israeli cuisine, where it now features prominently and is proclaimed as the country's national dish. MISLEADING AND NOT NECESSARY FOR LEDE. DOESN'T READ AS NEUTRAL.
History:
The dish later migrated northwards to the Levant, where chickpeas replaced the fava beans, and from there spread to other parts of the Middle East. THERE WERE JEWS THROUGHOUT THE MIDDLE EAST INCLUDING A SMALL POPULATION IN PALESTINE. THEREFORE STATING THE FOLLOWING:
The identification of Falafel with Israeli cuisine has been lamented by Palestinians, Lebanese and other Arab populations as amounting to cultural appropriation.
SEEMS CONTRADICTORY.
ALSO, RAVIV IS THE ONLY SCHOLARLY SOURCE CITING CULTURAL APPROPRIATION ALONG WITH OTHER ARAB ORGANISATIONS.
CONSIDERING...it was consumed by Syrian and Egyptian Jews AND was adopted in the diet of early Jewish immigrants to the Jewish communities of Ottoman Syria. WOULD BE APPROPRIATE TO STATE JEWS AND ARABS CONSUMED/MADE FALAFEL AT VARIOUS POINTS THROUGHOUT HISTORY IN LEDE.
Thoughts? Chavmen (talk) 09:20, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
The main note that I have on the above is: read WP:SHOUT. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:06, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
Of course Arab Jews (as well as Arab Christians etc.) in Egypt and the Levant ate falafel, but it was not regarded as a distinctively Jewish dish until recently. Treating falafel as a "national food" makes a claim about its distinctiveness.
Not sure what your point about the "lamenting" part is. This is an WP:NPOV statement, not claiming in WP's voice that it is cultural appropriation, just reporting on what others say. Do you disagree that others say this?
Not sure what you mean by Raviv "and other Arab organizations". Raviv is an Israeli-American scholar who has researched this issue and published it as a book and as far as I know has nothing to do with Arab organizations. --Macrakis (talk) 11:20, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
Hi Macrakis, I'll try to be more specific.
If the lede is a summary, then it would make more sense, judging by the article and each section to say something like this:
Falafel is a popular dish with a disputed origin, likely originating in Egypt and later spreading to the Middle East. The name is derived from the Arabic word for pepper. The dish involves fritters made from fava beans or chickpeas, often shaped into balls or patties and deep-fried or oven-baked. Preparation methods vary, with fava beans used in Egyptian cuisine and chickpeas in Palestinian cuisine. Falafel gained popularity across the Levant and the wider Middle East, often served during Ramadan. In Israel, the Palestinian chickpea falafel is considered a national dish, adopted by early Jewish immigrants. Falafel has gained global popularity as a vegetarian food in Europe, particularly Germany, and North America.
This just seems to me to fit more with WP:NPOV and for summation purposes.
2. In terms of Raviv, I understand he studied it significantly, but I think it would be more specific (according to him also) that it wasn't a Jewish Ashkenazi dish yet Syrian and Egyptian Jews did prepare and eat this dish. Specifically here: Falafel was never a specifically Jewish dish, but it was consumed by Syrian and Egyptian Jews. Makes more sense. Also, one person is not enough experts on the topic, hence why I then brought this up:
3. In terms of my Arab Organisations comment, I was referring to this sentence:...has been lamented by Palestinians, Lebanese and other Arab populations as amounting to cultural appropriation. I didn't mean to get this sentence confused with Raviv - they were too separate points.
To someone reading the article who doesn't look at sources, I would want to see both sides of the spectrum.
But I will get out of here now and leave it to some ECs to figure out :) Chavmen (talk) 11:27, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
"Until recently" meaning almost all Middle East Countries were created by Europe recently? Alexfrombonn (talk) 22:20, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Sorry, will put in italics next time. Just wanted to create the distinction. Chavmen (talk) 10:58, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
@Iskandar323 :) Chavmen (talk) 11:30, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
Raviv writes in citation [1] “The Jewish population in Palestine, the early halutzim, or pioneers - adopted the local Arab version made with childpeas.  By the 1920’s falafel had become a popular snack with the younger generation." That does not directly correspond to the citation, which implies it is a Palestinian dish, with Palestinian referencing the modern usage of the term.   In the 1920's the "Palestinians" were the people who lived in Palestine, including Jews, and Raviv is directly referencing the Jews in her paper. The citation should be removed, or it should be clarified that by "Palestinian, Raviv was referring to the Halutzim.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Psycholing (talk • contribs) 22:28, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
You are denying the whole history and culture of the Mizrahi Jewry.
That paragraph is discriminatory, zero neutral and against the idea of wikipedia.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews Alexfrombonn (talk) 22:17, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
In terms of WP, it seems like WP:FRINGE, similar to autism/vaccine denial. The rest of the world's billions do not associate falafel with "appropriation". SPECIFICO talk 14:58, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
I agree, especially since there seem to be several different theories and viewpoints, and dearth of any sources mentioning it before the 19th century.  The summary of it certainly is phrased in a way that's opinion as fact. I agree that it's not necessary in the lede altogether and move to strike the whole sentence and keep the controversy sequestered where it belongs.
Stampfer has an interesting viewpoint, which is that the deep-fried ball version in a pita pocket with tomato, which is certainly what would be called the iconic Israeli version of the dish, really couldn't have been created before the 20th century.
"Traditional Middle Eastern breads are dipped in sauces or used as a wrap. European baking technology that came to the Middle East in the late 19th century made the pocket pita possible. At the same time, inexpensive frying oil became available and a fried croquette that was popular in India was naturalized in the Middle East and given the name ‘falafel’."
"At this time, the tomato, which had recently been introduced to the Middle East, began to be used for salad. The combination of pocket pita, falafel balls and vegetable salad, with a bit of tahini added, came into being in the 20th century."
Stampfer criticizes the culinary nationalism debate, saying most modern foods in general aren't such ancient recipes. I think that perspective is perfectly valid and certainly matches pre-controversy usage, i.e. the subject of the criticism.  --Scharb (talk) 18:37, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
Sorry, @Scharb, who are you agreeing with? It looks like you're agreeing with Macrakis 7 Sept 2023, is that what you intended? Valereee (talk) 20:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
No, I meant to agree with the top post. Let me fix that. Scharb (talk) 20:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
When it gets this far down, just include mention who you're agreeing with. "I agree with 82 IP's OP" or whatever. That way people don't have to try to figure it out after thirty intervening posts. Valereee (talk) 20:21, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: [1] Clearly, it is not exclusively Palestinian; but it is indeed the context from which Israel had appropriated this version from. Why did you remove it? Makeandtoss (talk) 18:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

We can't make up a fakefact, clearly not a fact if I read your post right, to fit an interpretation about "appropriated" etc.
Maybe the first falafel was shared with pride, love, and respect by an Arab Israeli citizen at a neighborhood gathering.
I don't see appropriation at our meatball noodle or fried chicken, or tomato article pages. I've previously addressed the potato. I think it's a reasonable suggestion, as others have noted, to create a Appropiations of Falafel page, which could discuss its popularity around the world and the expressions of grievance and reactions to such feelings, worldwide.
A more obvious example of culinary influence on Jewish culture would be the Ashkenazi Jews' Matzo Ball to mimic indiginous Eastern European dumplings.
Of all the tragedies of the mideast region over the past 100 years, this is pretty far down on the list in the global mainstream view. The exaggerated grievance and elevation of the falafel as a symbol of the more essential and enduring issues has nothing to do with falafel, as @Valereee: has articulated. The weaponization of falafel trivializes the underlying issues. SPECIFICO talk 20:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)
What matters is the source, not your unsourced ramblings about irrelevant things like meatballs. What Raviv 2003 says is Falafel is generally made from fava beans (as in Egypt, where it is also known as Ta’amia), from chickpeas (the ver-sion traditional to Palestine and encountered in Israel today), or from a combination of the two. Palestinian should be restored and this effort to disregard the sources ignored. nableezy -  00:48, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
This seems to be a case in which personal opinions are being used to justify ignoring RS: "The falafel that Zionist settlers eventually came to claim as their national food was made by Palestinians first. It belongs to a family of fritters made with fava beans, or chickpeas in the Palestinian version, that had long been shared throughout the Arab Eastern Mediterranean, from Alexandria and Port Said in Egypt to Beirut in Lebanon." [2]
On a side note, this would be relevant: "Kassis focuses the book on food and kin; in an opinion piece she wrote in February for the Washington Post, she gave voice to the objections raised by many Palestinians over the notion of “Israeli cuisine.” “By and large, the dishes that make up the Israeli ‘national food’ repertoire (hummus, falafel, msabaha, baba ghanoush, knafeh) were learned from the Palestinian population,” she wrote. “In many restaurants and cookbooks, Israelis have no problem including such items as ‘Yemeni schug,’ ‘Iraqi sabich’ or ‘Tunisian salad.’ But the absence of the word ‘Palestinian’ from their menus and books is a glaring omission. As many Israeli academics and food writers themselves have pointed out, the word ‘Palestinian’ is still considered by many Israelis as a threat to their existence.”" [3] Makeandtoss (talk) 09:40, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
the word ‘Palestinian’ is still considered by many Israelis as a threat to their existence Kentucky Fried Chicken did not originate in Kentucky! Shakespeare appropriated Tragedy from the Greeks without attribution - presaging the British imperialism that plagued humanity for centuries.
My personal opinion is that "cultural appropriation" has been not only one of the principal engines of human progress -- starting with the Christian and Muslim appropriation of Hebraic teaching -- but has also driven outcomes of eventual integration and respect among disparate cultures. Some folks may be too close to the issue to see it in perspective. So, I leave you to your falafel. Adieu. SPECIFICO talk 13:32, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not the place for your personal opinions. I don’t want to know them and WP:NOTFORUM means I don’t need to be burdened with them. Kindly stop disrupting the purpose of this page, which is to discuss the article on Falafel, not our personal views on irrelevant topics. nableezy -  13:46, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Your personal opinion, while entirely irrelevant and as already pointed out strongly discouraged from being argued for here, is -whether in purpose or absence of knowledge- lacking the context of the settler colonial nature of Zionism against the indigenous Palestinian population. This is why we have RS, which contextualizes these disputes and gives a sound judgement on them, which we can then reflect on WP. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:35, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
To wrap this up: Somebody claimed without evidence that I post here from my personal opinion, so I corrected the record on that. Full stop. The problem is that falafel is not a crime, it's a foodstuff. The controversy has its own extensive discussion in a page initiated by our colleague Valereee. On this page it's WP:COATRACK that has baffled most uninvolved editors and readers. SPECIFICO talk 15:15, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Are you under the impression that having a dedicated article on a subtopic makes it less noteworthy? Huh. You know that coatracking is about including things not related to the subject, and what we include is things related to the subject, right? nableezy -  15:42, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
@SPECIFICO: The actual wrap up of this discussion is that the removal of the word "Palestinian" from the context of Israeli "adoption" of the food is contrary to RS, and that "I leave you to your falafel" is an implicit non-objection to its restoration? Makeandtoss (talk) 09:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Falafel is levant 2A04:7F80:105A:8600:1C0A:DFCC:3DAA:5890 (talk) 11:19, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Valereee (talk) 14:05, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

Change source 18 link from what it is currently to this one: "https://books.google.com/books?id=S_x6nrkcoUkC&lpg=PA41&vq=falafel&pg=PA41#v=onepage&q&f=false". The link I provided goes directly to the cited page while the current link shows all sections with "falafel." KonnonLindstorm (talk) 19:29, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

Done. Rainsage (talk) 04:52, 27 March 2025 (UTC)

Hey, EditBagel, your edits have removed all mention of the political issues. I have no objection to us shortening that section, as the entire reason I wrote the main article was to get the lengthy treatment of political symbolism out of this article about food, but we can't just erase it. It's been heavily covered in RS, it's part of the dish's cultural context. Let's discuss. Valereee (talk) 18:22, 7 July 2025 (UTC)

And again @ChillWikiWanderer, a name change for EditBagel, removes of all mention of sociopolitical context, twice. As I said above, I don't object to trimming this section, but removing it altogether, no. And IMO it's important enough to be mentioned in the lead. Valereee (talk) 12:55, 14 November 2025 (UTC)

Homemade falafel is 35% water, 32% carbohydrates, 13% protein, and 18% fat (table). In a reference amount of 100 grams (3.5 oz), homemade falafel supplies 333 calories and is a rich source (20% or more of the Daily Value, DV) of folate (20% DV)...

Those are very precise and matter-of-fact numbers for something "home made".  57.135.233.22 (talk) 00:13, 26 August 2025 (UTC)

That's what the source says. Zefr (talk) 01:17, 26 August 2025 (UTC)
OK, but this an obvious case of where the logic of "source says" falls down.  If I can make falafel in my home (thus "home-made falafel") with a 34% water content (or 36%), this claim is falsified.  I think this needs some revision or a better source.  57.135.233.22 (talk) 06:42, 29 August 2025 (UTC)
I agree it's overprecise for a dish for which there are certainly hundreds of recipes. I've modified it to 'typically'. Valereee (talk) 12:57, 14 November 2025 (UTC)