# Talk:Esham

On November 19th, 2004, the Acid rap article was listed for VfD.  The result of the debate was a nearly unanimous vote of KEEP (16:2).  A record of the discussion for deletion of this page on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion may be found at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Acid rap.

In the opening paragraph it states: ESHAM (East Side Hoes And Money) (born Rashaam Attica Smith on September 20, 1973) is a rapper from Detroit, Michigan and member of the hip hop group Natas. He calls his style of rock-influenced hip hop "acid rap". He released his first album, Boomin' Words from Hell, in 1990 at the age of 13.
I'm unsure as to when he was born or when his first album dropped or at what age, but if he was born in 1973, then in 1990 he would have been 17, not 13 as this states.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Echosider (talk • contribs) 21:11, 5 April 2008 (UTC) 

According to Allmusic, he was 13 when he released his debut album. His website states that the album was originally released in 1989. (Sugar Bear (talk) 19:39, 27 February 2009 (UTC))
Amazingly, to much confusion, Mickey Hess' Hip Hop in America: A Regional Guide: Volume 1: East Coast and West Coast lists Esham's birth year as 1977, which would place Esham as releasing his first album at the age of 12, which is certainly not true. (Sugar Bear (talk) 00:11, 8 April 2010 (UTC))
It's likely that he was born in 1973. On the Closed Casket album cover it reads "1973-1994" likely denoting Esham's birth year and fictional death year. Some sources also state Esham as being 15 when he released his first album, which is the age he would have been until September of 1989.

Sources said that he released his first album at 13. He was not born in 1973. WTF (talk) 09:48, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
According to the artist, it was first released independently in 1988 http://imgur.com/gallery/KD0Ysa1 2604:CA00:160:47C8:0:0:E60:CB0 (talk) 17:43, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

I haven't seen anywhere where it said 'Rashaam' was his birth name or any references for that being accurate on here.  I have information for 'Esham' being his birth name and have a reference listed for it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.247.137.111 (talk) 01:16, 7 December 2012 (UTC) 

The first two references in the article both say his real name is "Rashaam Smith". One is online, check here. Please also not that blogs are not reliable sources. --Tgeairn (talk) 01:20, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
It is the blog for his website, it isn't just 'a blog'.  If it's going to say 'Rashaam' is his birth name, I would like to see a reference for that being accurate since I have not seen that as being accurate information anywhere, only false.  Metrotimes isn't an accurate source of information but thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.247.137.111 (talk) 01:27, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
It is NOT the blog for his website. He has openly said he has nothing to do with the Esham.wordpress account. I know Esham has stupid fans, so I direct you to WP:Reliable sources. There are four reliable sources, including MTV, Allmusic and two published books on hip hop identifying Esham's birth name as Rashaam. If you think his parents named him East Side Hoes And Money, you are incredibly stupid. Esham is a stage name. End of story. 50.39.221.35 (talk) 10:06, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
LOOK AT THE SOURCES. HIS NAME IS RASHAAM AND HE WAS 13 WHEN HE RELEASED HIS FIRST ALBUM. 166.182.82.188 (talk) 02:42, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Lies, lies, and more lies. You know it damn well. dannymusiceditor  oops  04:13, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
This is so ridiculous. I'm explicitly only leaving it "Esham" because the internet is so extremely unreliable in this scenario and I don't want to be banned because some simpleton can't accept that the man's parents didn't name him East Side Hos and Money, but **his name is Rashaam**. Matter of fact, I'ma go ask him on Instagram and host that somewhere and link it here. See y'all in a week or so. LSDXM (talk) 15:54, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
Ok so I asked E himself, and I'm wrong about his name, and we're all wrong about the release of Boomin' 
http://imgur.com/gallery/KD0Ysa1 LSDXM (talk) 17:42, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
Here's his High school diploma; no mention of "Attica" 
http://imgur.com/gallery/NKZtMWD LSDXM (talk) 18:38, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Just as an FYI, there's going to be a merger proposal over at Merger proposal/notability discussion for the genre over whether or not the subject of acid rap as a genre deserves its own page. There's been a reversion war over the topic and I thought that it would be good to at least revisit the subject since it's been a while since the last merger proposal. Tokyogirl79  (｡◕‿◕｡)  16:26, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on Esham. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080922032350/http://www.acidrap.com:80/eshamcatalog.html to http://www.acidrap.com/eshamcatalog.html
Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110706052811/http://allhiphop.com:80/stories/features/archive/2011/07/04/22831145.aspx to http://allhiphop.com/stories/features/archive/2011/07/04/22831145.aspx
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.
Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 14:03, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

You know how you "verify" statements on Wikipedia? Reliable sources. You don't go to a bunch of dumb fan sites and ignore the reliable, researched sources like Allmusic which say his real name was Rashaam Smith and he was 13 when he released his debut album. You just don't do that.

No we don't just ignore reliable sources, but this was never the situation. What you say is covered by the sources is not at all what they say. And sign your posts with four tildes, please. The source does actually say he released it at 16.dannymusiceditor  Speak up!  23:47, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Esham. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://www.webcitation.org/6IIhOhAXC?url=http://www.allrovi.com/name/natas-mn0000375162 to http://www.allrovi.com/name/natas-mn0000375162
Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.acidrap.com/eshamcatalog.html
Added archive https://archive.is/20130116230804/http://www.allrovi.com/music/album/a1-yola-mw0000453103 to http://www.allrovi.com/music/album/a1-yola-mw0000453103
Corrected formatting/usage for http://allhiphop.com/stories/features/archive/2011/07/04/22831145.aspx
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:58, 23 September 2017 (UTC)


### Esham
Article (edit | visual edit | history) ·  Article talk (edit | history) ·  Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review
 Result: Kept No requirement for a photo and ther issues appear to be dealt with AIRcorn (talk) 03:16, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
First off, there is no photo of the artist, and I was unable to find a suitable free image.
If there's not one available, there's no foul on the GA criterion.
The intro is extremely short.
I can probably make this better, but there's not much wrong with it in my opinion. He's not a hugely popular artist.
Several of the sources are bare links.
Fixed.
Source 15 appears to be a self-published YouTube video.
 Working
Sources 28 and 29, Faygoluvers, appear to be a self-published fansite.
 Working
There is very little info on the critical reception of his albums. For instance, Flowerz is mentioned, but only its chart position is given. Compare other musical GAs I've worked on such as Joe Diffie, Doug Stone, or Diamond Rio, where each album has multiple reviews cited.
His critical reception is surprisingly small. He's had quite a few albums chart, but not much more than Allmusic reviews. I can try to find a few, but some just don't have any good reception on them.
There are several format issues. "Psycopathic Records" has several one-sentence paragraphs, and nearly every use of a chart position uses a number sign, which is not accepted per the MOS.
 Working
"Digital Era , No more hard-copies" content appears to have been moved from another page, as it uses bolding in weird spots. This section also has horrible grammar such as " It was released on May 26, 2017 digital only."
This was inexperienced fan-written content that I completely removed. 104.39.135.32 (talk) 14:27, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
The article was promoted in 2008, and maintenance has been clearly lacking ever since. (ETA: Turns out I was the one who passed in 2008. Wow.) Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 00:49, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Shouldn't be too hard to fix when I have the time. If this runs as long as the average GAR does, I'll have plenty of time. The YouTube Video is a post from Esham's verified YouTube account - looks like it was previously credited to his account under another name. Does just reformatting it sound alright? Danny from IP 104.39.135.32 (talk) 15:11, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
@DannyMusicEditor: @104.39.135.32: That in and of itself is a major issue, that we can't find a picture of him nor confirm his birth date. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 23:58, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Not having any available images is not a GA criterion. It states that is should be, if possible, illustrated by images. You try finding an Esham concert, go ahead. It's potentially dangerous. A lot of the people that go to them are shady characters. Imagine how hard it would be just to get one contributor-taken photograph of him at a good shot while all this wild stuff is happening at one of his concerts. Hard, right? No images of Esham are available on Wikimedia, so it's impossible at the moment. Since it's not possible, that criterion is completely fine.
For the birth date, we can make note that sources differ. If Mariah Carey (FA) can do that, so can this article. Of course, she had definite dates, but there are remedies to this situation, even if no refs exist which have an actual date. Danny from IP 104.39.135.32 (talk) 14:26, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Esham. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://archive.is/20120718033738/http://www.allrovi.com/music/album/repentance-mw0000693884 to http://www.allrovi.com/music/album/repentance-mw0000693884
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:06, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

After a bout of sockpuppet disruption from banned User:Sugar Bear, the biography has been placed under protection. While protection continues, we should figure out what to write about Esham's birth info.
Our sources provide contradictory information about Esham's birth name and birth year. Especially troubling is that Jason Birchmeier contradicts himself between an online source and a book source. In 2000, MTV confidently gives one age, but 12 years later they are not so sure. Below is a list of what the sources say:

1973 – Esham A. Smith. Jason Birchmeier writing in AllMusic. The source also says Boomin' Words from Hell was released in 1989,[1] but the album review page says 1990.[2]
1976–1977 – Rashaam Smith. Jason Birchmeier writing in All Music Guide to Hip-Hop, page 160 (ISBN 978-0879307592.) No specific year of birth given, but it says that Esham was 13 in 1990 when Boomin' Words from Hell was released, so if it was released before his birthday in September then he would have been born in 1976. If it was released after, the birth year would be 1977.
1976–1977 – Rashaam Smith. Metro Times of Detroit in 2008.[3]
1974 – Esham Smith. MTV wrote in early 2000 that Esham was 25 years old.[4] That means he would turn 26 in September 2000. They wrote that he was 15 when Boomin' Words from Hell was released.
1974 or 1976 – Rashaam Smith. MTV wrote in 2012 that Esham was either 13 or 15 when Boomin' Words from Hell was released in 1989.[5]
Rashaam Smith. Chicago Tribune in 2003.[6]
Esham Smith. Joel Whitburn's Billboard Music Yearbook 2001, page 176.
Rashaam A. Smith a.k.a. Esham A. Smith. Court documents from the 2005 sampling case in Bridgeport Music, Inc. v. Smith give two names for Esham, with Rashaam listed first, but no description of which name was chronologically first in his life.[7]
1973 – Esham Attica Smith. Myheritage.com lists this name and birth year, supported by various official documents such as census files and birth certificates.[8] They also list another entry, Esham A. Smith, born in 1977. The myheritage.com website does not have anything at all to support the name Rashaam Smith as birth name.
The problem we have is how we represent these contradictions to the reader. To me, it looks like Esham Attica Smith was the birth name, with "Rashaam" some kind of later name, if the myheritage sources are to be trusted. And if that's the case, then 1973 is the year. Otherwise, the names Esham and Rashaam are equally represented in the reliable sources, and the middle name is only shown by the initial A, if at all. The birth years go from 1973 to 1977. Binksternet (talk) 04:11, 7 September 2018 (UTC)