# Talk:Murder of Marwa El-Sherbini

I have tried to adopt neutral language and to source most of the statements. Some more work needs to be done here. I've also corrected the syntax and grammar. --Mia-etol (talk) 16:54, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks -- Arne List (talk) 22:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

On reading the article I'm a bit vague as to how/why her husband was injured. He was shot in the leg - and - "previously critically injured"? In terms of significance his critical injury seems more noteworthy. Do we know how it happened? I've scanned some resources but not been able to sort it out. Manning (talk) 06:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Talking to myself now... CNN says that the husband was stabbed by the assailant. But it makes no mention of the leg shooting incident, saying only that the husband was shot by police. CNN. Manning (talk) 06:39, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
He ran to help his wife and was stabbed three time, untill a police officer shot him into his leg. He lies in hospital and was in a critical situation, but not because of the shot, but the wounds of the knife. The killer is allegedly a trained former Russian soldier. -- Arne List (talk) 12:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


### Done: Proper short style in referring to Marwa El-Sherbini?
The name of the victim obviously occurs multiple times, and usual style would be to use a short form in most cases. The usual German (and Western) usage as a short form would be to use the last name El-Sherbini, because the first name Marwa would be overly familiar referring to a stranger and familiarity is often taken as disrespect. However, previous contributions to this article used Marwa as a shortened form sometimes. What would be the usual short form used, for example, by Egyptians writing in the English language? Tschild (talk) 17:05, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Problem solved by another user who standardized to the last name. Tschild (talk) 22:11, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


### Done: Marwa El-Sherbini's pharmacology training and work as a pharmacist
German Wikipedia says El-Sherbini studied in 1995-2000, for a bachelor's degree in pharmacology, but does not mention source and further information (where?). I'd like to add this education information to the Life section. Any precise sources known? Tschild (talk) 17:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

BTW the Max Planck Institute also says she worked as a pharmacist. Any sources where? (A pharmacist can work in a pharmacy but also in a hospital or in research). Tschild (talk) 17:35, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
I have now found a source and added the education information. Tschild (talk) 18:10, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


### Done: identify web site of association in Dresden co-founded by El-Sherbini
According to newspaper articles http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/artikel.asp?id=2209078 and http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/Dresden-Bluttat-Ermordung-Marwa-El-Sherbini;art771,2846201 El-Sherbini co-founded a local association. http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/artikel.asp?id=2209078 refers to an internet page of the association but I have not found the site yet - only a press release at http://www.turkishpress.de/content/islamisches-kulturzentrum-%E2%80%9Emarwa-el-sherbini%E2%80%9C-dresden13998 which has en e-mail address not a Web URL. There http://izdresden.de but that seems to be another association (e.V.), of another name. Tschild (talk) 06:52, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I think this was done a while ago by Tschild: http://www.mkez-dresden.de/ Mootros (talk) 13:04, 26 October 2009 (UTC)


### Done: find referenceable source for criminal insult in Germany
The concept of criminal insult in German law does not seem to be widely understood (judging from the plurality of reports in the English-language press that refer to El-Sherbini 'suing' her later killer, sometimes of her winning compensation in the first trial). The basic concept is that in Germany insult (Beleidigung) is mainly a civil offence, but can be prosecuted as a criminal offence if there is a public interest (as seems to have been decided prior to the first trial). I cannot write something like that in a footnote because it would very likely be original research, and there is no English-language Wikipedia page on the subject to point people to (the English-language Wikipedia has articles on common law concepts like slander and libel instead), but I'd like to point readers in a footnote to a good English-language source on the concept of criminal insult particularly in Germany - can anyone point out one? Tschild (talk) 10:35, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

77.20.72.238 changed back the wording to "was reported on 1 July 2009 ... and in print media with a tone of understatement on the following day. ... overshadowed by calls...". That's a non-NPOV phrasing and I'm going to change it back. You can of course refer to that view, but as someone's view not as a fact. I suggest you find a good source criticising the reporting and report that source's view, with a reference: "such and such a commentator criticised the initial reporting as understating the xenophobic|islamophobic nature of the attack", or some suchphrasing. Tschild (talk) 17:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I don't think there is much to discuss about this. It was hate speech, completely misquoting the source. I was about to do the very same edit, but you were quicker. -- Alpetragius (talk) 15:08, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Why has this been removed?
They called upon Muslims not to instrumentalize the woman's death. Egyptians working at Dresden University claimed they had not been subject to discrimation before and that they see the murder as an isolated incident.
--89.245.194.219 (talk) 11:20, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Deleted by 77.20.72.238 - I have posted a note on that IP's talk page inviting him/her to this talk page. (I have made this issue a new section on the talk page for clarity.) Tschild (talk) 18:52, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
I have taken the liberty to revert this change as well – honestly, I don't expect the IP to quietly discuss things here. -- Alpetragius (talk) 15:21, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
"not to instrumentalize..." What the heck kind of a word is this, and what does it mean here?  Looking it up, the only definition I find is 'to transcribe a piece of music for an instrument'.  And it can't be the actual word used, since that was not in English.  Maybe a poor translation?  Whatever, it needs to be fixed. T-bonham (talk) 08:27, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I suspect this is a poor translation. "Instrumentalisieren" translates to something like "to exploit" - which is a rather loaded word.  "Instrumentalisieren" is loaded too, but a little less so, IMO. Not sure about the best replacement, but I also think it needs to be replaced.
Stefanmuc (talk) 11:20, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Why is the reaction of the Max Planck Society relevant?  Am I missing something?Datacharge (talk) 06:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

El-Sherbini's husband is/was a postgraduate student at one of their institutions. Is their opinion notable? I don't know. WWGB (talk) 06:16, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
NB I have since moved the material to a somewhat broader subsection. Tschild (talk) 10:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

There are a lot of issues here that raise comment.  Why is the Max Planck Society comment relevant?  Can this be subsumed into a section on "responses" to the crime?  If the woman has been transformed from victim into cause celebe then there needs to be neutral point of view clarification of this, supported by reputable, and verifiable citations.  Third, the material clarifying the German legal stand on last names, etc., needs to be better integrated into the text, rather than parenthetically; it is too distracting as a parenthetical remark within a sentence.  Finally, MAJOR copy edit should be done. So, while it's a fairly complicated article, with lots of sources, it's still a start, albeit a good one.Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:03, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

A lot of facts are sourced with German-language references (newspapers, some broadcast media) - I don't rightly know how to avoid it at present. There are good English-language sources that can be used wrt international reactions (Iranian president Ahmadinejad has weighted in lately - is that notable here?) but relating to the local facts in Dresden the English-language sources seem to be third or fourth hand. No sources that are nearly as rich in details as e.g. http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/artikel.asp?id=2209078 . Perhaps there will be good English-language writeups in the quality press when the indictment comes down in a few months' time. Tschild (talk) 22:37, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:NONENG - English-language sources preferable; sources in other languages acceptable where an English equivalent is not available. Tschild (talk) 20:54, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Unfortunately it is still the case that a lot of details (from the trial, now) are only available in German-language sources - the English-language articles that I have found up to now spend a lot of space on a general recap of the case and are short on details and long on misunderstandings (such as that the original trial for defamation was a civil one). Are there no English-language reporters doing original reporting from the courtroom rather than repeating prior articles and drawing on agency reports?  Tschild (talk) 08:05, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Under "Verbal abuse and criminal case for insult"
the following is plain wrong: "... a dispute about her 3-year old son, who was apparently playing on a swing that his niece wanted to use."
Appearing last on the scene, Marwa El-Sherbini stepped out towards uncle (Alex W.) and his niece, then occupying the two swings on the playground, claiming the swing for her son. --MilesSmiles (talk) 17:54, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

There are somewhat conflicting accounts now: http://www.fr-online.de/in_und_ausland/politik/aktuell/?em_cnt=1821248 (of 3 July) says Alex W. wanted El-Sherbini's son to make place for W's niece; on the other hand http://www.morgenpost.de/printarchiv/politik/article1134380/Zwischen_Kopftuechern_und_Vorurteilen.html (of 19 July) says El-Sherbini wanted Alex W. to make place for her son (Alex W. apparently sitting on the swing). As this detail is not material I'll try to think of a form of words that covers both versions. Tschild (talk) 19:48, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I just followed your link and much to my surprise found indeed this article backing the other version. Never read anything anywhere like that someplace else.
Well, FR and some other publications are on a very strange campaign, scandalizing the events as if the woman fell victim to something they like to call 'islamophobia'. Therefore any form of critizism of the fidels and their customs is proved dangerous by now and should be prohibited.
What is strange: there are a lots of scarf-victims indeed: almost every other day Muslim women are slaughtered by their fathers, brothers, uncles and cousins all over Europe, because they want to quit wearing the scarf (or 'harming the honour' of 'their owners' in other ways) - all this never did provoke any outcry of those organised Muslims or their entourage, who
are now proclaiming their deep grieve for the 'first Martyr of the scarf in Germany'. Even the policeman shooting the husband in the turmoil is a 'nazi' and a racist to some of those by now.
You'll have to look very hard into those papers fuelling this campaign to find statements of the Ex-Muslims or the statement of aegyptiens in Germany. Those very concerned are not amused by this campaign at all.
It would have been better to wait w/ this article until after the trail. --MilesSmiles (talk) 20:53, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking for; are you wanting to change the past to have this article never written?  As that is not possible, maybe you want to clarify exactly what your point is.  In the interim, as regards your statement that "FR and some other publications are on a very strange campaign, scandalizing the events as if the woman fell victim to something they like to call 'islamophobia'."  According to Collins English Dictionary, islamophobia is a "hatred or fear of Muslims or of their politics or culture."  So FR and others are not on a campaign to call this a case of islamophobia, that is simply what it is.  Also, your statement that, "almost every other day Muslim women are slaughtered by their fathers, brothers, uncles and cousins all over Europe, because they want to quit wearing the scarf" is unsubstantiated and is another example of islamophobia.  And although I wouldn't go so far as to call the cop a Nazi, he obviously has some islamophobia of his own to deal with, as he assumed an unarmed Egyptian Muslim to be the criminal despite the fact that a German was standing there stabbing him.  So maybe you are the one who should "look very hard" at yourself.  —Comment added by AngelSG (talk • contribs) 20:10, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I have moved the following links added at the end by an IP to this talk page:
Daily Ummat Karachi,Urdu news papers.Writer Safi Ali Azmi
http://ummatpublications.com/2009/07/23/page-6.html
Daily Ummat Karachi,Urdu news papers.Writer Safi Ali Azmi
http://ummatpublications.com/2009/07/09/page-3.html
Daily Ummat Karachi,Urdu news papers.Writer Safi Ali Azmi
http://ummatpublications.com/2009/07/08/page-3.html
They may be relevant sources to be cited, but we'd need an English-language translation of what these articles report - the links were added without any context or explanation. Tschild (talk) 18:20, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

 Done! Mootros (talk) 15:49, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi,
the paragraph about the charges now brought forward against the perpetrator reads

What the source says is

This certainly does not mean that hate was the motive for the perpetrator's perfidousness. In fact, anyone somewhat familar with German legalspeak will know that "niedrigen Beweggründe", "low [or base] motives" is, just like perfidiousness, a qualifying feature for a murder charge. Plus the term is not very common outside jurisprudence.  [For a full catalogue of qualifying features for a murder charge, see § 211 StBG.
Moreover, if you read the excerpt from the prosecuter's press release available here, it is quite clear that the prosecuters think that perfidousness and the suspect's hatred against non-Europeans and Muslims are both qualifying features for the murder charge. Yaan (talk) 12:30, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying this. Are you saying that Mordmerkmal and Motive are essentially the same, in the sense that a motive  has lead to a certain characteristic? How about this?

Any good?  Cheers, Mootros (talk) 12:45, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Also you're hinting that niedrige Beweggründe cannot exactly be rendered as perfidiousness. Are there differences in German legal speak? Many thanks! Mootros (talk) 12:55, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Actually, "Mordmerkmal" is "qualifying characteristic for a murder charge" (or "... for murder"). "motive" is my translation of "Beweggründe", "perfidiousness" is "Heimtücke".
What they are saying is that they found two distinct qualifying features for a murder charge: one is that the attack was perfidious (attacking the victims when they did not expect any harm), the other one is the lowly motivation of the attack (i.e. hatred against Moslems). If Alex W. had acted less perfidioulsy, it would still be murder because of the nature of his motive. Mercy killings can still be murder if the person killed was not able to defend him- or herself.
I just realized that there actually is an english translation of art. 211 available at Murder#Germany (with "heimtueckisch" rendered as " treacherously"). Maybe this helps? Regards, Yaan (talk) 13:04, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Very useful! Thank you kindly for this. Mootros (talk) 13:52, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
I think it might not be perfect yet, especially the footnote. What they are saying is that hatred for Muslims is a base motive, not that hatred for Muslims is directly a qualifying characteristic of murder explicitely mentioned in the Strafgesetzbuch. I.e. they cite two, not three, qualifying features. Yaan (talk) 17:17, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Also, I think "maliciousness" might not be a very good translation for "niedrige Beweggruende". If we can't come up with a satisfying translation, maybe it's better to leave this technical term out and just mention "hatred for Muslims and non-Europeans" or "the nature of the perpetrator's motive" and "perfidiousness". Yaan (talk) 17:33, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
niedere Beweggruende in the sense of Niedertracht is probably best rendered as  maliciousness. Nieder as Boese. Now:

Am I still missing the point?
Yours, Mootros (talk) 17:43, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
I think the proper term we were looking for in common law is malice Mootros (talk) 08:58, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
hatred against non-Europeans and Muslims? There are about 4% foreigner/migrants in Dresden (about 500,000 inhabitants) [1] They are from "Vietnam (1500), Poland (860), Russia (790), Ukraine (630), Portugal (550), Hungary (530), Italy (510) ... and Turkey (500) .. [2]. The chance, to meet a "Muslim" in Dresden is less than 0.1%. 
He wasn´t able to pay the fine and would be put in prison. I assume, that was the reason why he went Berserker. -- Crato (talk) 00:18, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Of all the groups you listed, only Turks and Vietnamese are correct, because others are other Europeans. Second of all, maybe its a small percentage in Dresden, but muslims are a big problem throughtout all of Germany and the rest of Europe. Norum (talk) 00:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

There is a site http://www.marwaelsherbiny.com that (according to the footer) is published by her 'friends and family'. Possibly it will be a source for future family statements etc.
I'd like to make a note on one aspect for now: the text on the "What Happened" page contains in part text that is the same, or very similar, to this Wikipedia article. No reason to give them grief about that, but in case anyone should wonder if the Wikipedia page should contain text copied from marwaelsherbiny.com - that's not the case, some passages on WP and marwaelsherbiny.com have wording that I wrote originally on WP. So, WP did not lift text originally contributed to marwaelsherbiny.com - as I said, just in case someone wonders. Tschild (talk) 21:31, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I can confirm this, large parts of this page are copy&pasted from  this wikipedia article that User:Tschild primarily has written and I primarily have copy-edited. Mootros (talk) 21:45, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Dear All, I think there is actually a licence issue here. Although I am not entirely sure to what extent the new creative common licence (i.e. CC-BY-SA?) already applies, their site must technically attribute the author. My honourable and learned friend Tschild rightly states that no (additional) grief ought to be given, but I suggest to use the situation constructively and creatively and ask them whether they would release some of their images (i.e.) under a CC-BY-SA licence (if possible), so we can use them. What do people think? Yours, Mootros (talk) 21:56, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

These are short notes for future reference on editing the trial section, taken from news reports Tschild (talk) 18:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


### 1st week
26 Oct 2009:
beginning - defendant makes no opening statement, refuses to state name/DOB - motion to remove judges for bias (denied) - testimony of widower
defendant makes no plea http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/6439121/German-man-on-trial-for-courtroom-killing-of-Muslim-woman.html (EN)
27 Oct 2009:
testimony of medical examiner http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/deutschland/Marwa-el-Sherbini;art122,2934552 (DE) http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jLVEj9NpxSbA9S_Qg4F4N-S48GCgD9BJFNKO0 (EN)
testimony of judge presiding in the 1 July hearing http://www.stern.de/panorama/mordprozess-el-sherbini-ich-dachte-er-sticht-mich-ab-1517417.html (DE) http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/292038,judge-describes-courtroom-murder-of-egyptian-woman--summary.html (EN) (almost verbatim report at http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0,1518,657705-2,00.html (DE) ) http://www.stern.de/panorama/2-mordprozess-in-dresden-die-ohnmacht-des-richters-1517577.html (DE) http://www.taz.de/1/politik/deutschland/artikel/1/%5Cich-dachte-es-sind-faeuste%5C/ (DE)
overview http://www.dresden-fernsehen.de/default.aspx?ID=6090&showNews=560976
28 Oct 2009:
Delay for medical exam of defendant on his request - temper tantrum by defendant http://www.thelocal.de/society/20091028-22879.html (EN)
court-appointed counsel of 1 July testifies; ; clearer details of son's cause of injury; inconsistency whether appealed the verdict aimed at a custodial sentence http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/Marwa-el-Sherbini-Dresden;art771,2935465 (DE)
http://www.dresden-fernsehen.de/default.aspx?ID=7711&showNews=561522
29 Oct 2009:
four witnesses http://www.zeit.de/newsticker/2009/10/29/iptc-hfk-20091029-19-22827928xml  (DE)
one lay judge (Schöffe); clearer details of son's cause of injury; up to nine prison officers restrain defendant http://newsticker.welt.de/index.php?channel=ver&module=dpa&id=22818980 (DE) -
a social worker; family seeks redress outside trial: http://www.zeit.de/newsticker/2009/10/29/iptc-bdt-20091029-119-22830802xml (DE)
a court security officer (at the end of http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/artikel.asp?id=2302147 (DE) )
judge in the first defamation trial in 2008 (at the end of http://www.lvz-online.de/aktuell/content/115372.html (DE) )
12 of 23 witnesses heard up to now. Defendant has remained silent and displayed "unconstructive behaviour" in the dock  http://www.lvz-online.de/aktuell/content/115463.html (DE)


### 2nd week
2 Nov 2009:
good overview http://www.kanal8.de/default.aspx?ID=1781&showNews=563771 (DE)
http://www.dresden-fernsehen.de/default.aspx?ID=7711&showNews=563771 (DE)
Mother called as witness, refusal http://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/6823495.html (DE)
interview with mother; her version about what happened on playground http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/2009/11/01/marwa-mutter-des-moerders/spricht-ueber-ihren-sohn-und-ihre-scham.html (DE)
http://www.faz.net/s/Rub77CAECAE94D7431F9EACD163751D4CFD/Doc~ED94718C259CA4529B8125578588AA10F~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html (DE)
Witness on defendant's previous violence threats http://www.zeit.de/newsticker/2009/11/2/iptc-bdt-20091101-259-22864736xml (DE)
3 Nov 2009:
police officers responding on 1 July http://newsticker.welt.de/?module=dpa&id=22879428 (DE) http://www.focus.de/panorama/vermischtes/mordprozess-marwa-el-sherbini-bundespolizisten-verteidigen-die-tat-ihres-kollegen-vor-gericht_aid_450677.html http://www.die-newsblogger.de/dresden-fall-marwa-el-sherbini-polizei-konnte-tater-und-opfer-nicht-unterscheiden-32490 (DE) http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1511152.php/Courtroom-murder-of-Egyptian-woman-wanted-to-die-Roundup (EN)
defendant's mother restates refusal to testify; no response from sister (who would also have the right to refuse) yet http://www.focus.de/panorama/welt/kopftuch-prozess-messerstecher-forderte-todesschuss_aid_450691.html (DE)
4 Nov 2009:
defendant now makes statement, admits deed http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0,1518,659258,00.html (de) http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/293217,dresden-attacker-denies-killing-of-egyptian-woman-was-racist-act.html (en)
5 Nov 2009: Psychiatric expert witness testifies in nonpublic session; full criminal responsibility http://www.focus.de/panorama/welt/prozesse-gutachter-alex-w-ist-schuldfaehig_aid_451342.html - seems there are no further witnesses; final speeches of prosecution, co-plaintiff's lawyers and defence to be made 9 and 10 November. http://www.faz.net/s/Rub77CAECAE94D7431F9EACD163751D4CFD/Doc~E36D7C153CC7B46F2A9C8D8DC66AAADA2~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html?rss_googlenews


### 3rd week
9 Nov 2009:
closing arguments of prosecution and co-plaintiff; requested document from Russia arrives http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0,1518,660269,00.html
10 Nov 2009:

11 Nov 2009: (last session date scheduled at present; verdict expected for this date)
Thanks! Very useful. Cheers, Mootros (talk) 07:22, 28 October 2009 (UTC)


### Not dated/ general
judge, Birgit Wiegand, quoting defendant's xenophobic letter appealing against fine: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/30/dresden-courtroom-killing-trial (EN)
Al Ahram Weekly on mainly first week of trial http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2009/971/eg10.htm (en)
opinion piece on concert cancellation http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2009/971/op4.htm (en)
Some more; may come in handy. Mootros (talk) 15:13, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Under the actual murder it says that the husband is suing the police officer who shot him because he thought he was the aggressor based solely on the fact that he was an Arab and Wiens was white.  Well source 11 is a German article that supposedly claims the husband is suing said police officer but when I translated and read it, there was no such claim at all.  If it is the case that this officer is being sued, then we need a real source, preferably an english one.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.28.57.38 (talk) 20:30, 11 November 2009 (UTC) 

That's why we must check all the sources carefully. There are always a lot of sensationalists who try to start rumors about how racist and evil everyone is. It's like it became a fashion. --131.188.3.20 (talk) 23:04, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
There is no claim that I can see to effect that "the husband is suing the police officer who shot him because he thought he was the aggressor based solely on the fact that he was an Arab and Wiens was white.". It just says the police officer is under criminal investigation i.e. not the subject of a lawsuit (need to upddate article later with sources on the second week of the murder trial - they say the criminal investigation was ongoing then). Not unusual in the circumstances - investigations against police officers in Germany who shot someone do tend to take several months or longer. Claims of racism were made by family members in Egypt if I recollect correctly from the sources, not by the husband Tschild (talk) 13:20, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
The original source's content seems to have changed (same URL but different title - now covers indictment but not investigation of police officer). Have replaced it in that instance with a source from November. Tschild (talk) 13:46, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
This is the source [3] of the family member making the claim. Mootros (talk) 22:21, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it absurd and oversensational to dedicate such a large article to this? Christian minorities are being killed in arab countries under much worse circumstances, yet it barely gets mentioned. Also, the WikiPedia article on the Fort Hood shooting where an Arab shot a bunch of white people is clinically censored of any mention of racism? Where is the balance? 93.161.107.118 (talk) 14:55, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

If Christiam minorities "are being killed in arab countries under much worse circumstances" feel free to post your SOURCED articles to wikipedia regarding them.  As to the Fort Hood shooting, since it is so recent they are still looking into Hassan's motivations, so that might be why it is currently not mentioning racism.  Otherwise, in my opinion it is not "absurd and oversensational" to have this article, and the length of the article is dictated by the complexity of the case and the amount of source material available.  Therefore I don't feel it is overly long. AngelSG (talk) 20:26, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Dear 93.161.107.118, has it perhaps occurred to you that this article might also have been written in response to a person being killed in a court of law in a country that calls itself Rechtsstaat (that means  the rule of law is the highest principle there.) Perhaps has it even --to your possible surprised-- occurred to you that some of the main contributors of this article are Christians or White Anglo-Saxon Protestants (or whatever label stands fit)? 22:34, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Much worse things happen against christians all over the muslim world but you don't cover it to this extent. Regarding law and order, I believe most countries call themselves similarly, including muslim countries. Germany is not special in that manner, in my country we call it 'retsstat'. It's used in several european countries besides Germany. But yes you are right, some of the most fierce pro-islamists are actually white people that act out of mistaken 'tolerance' which is in fact intolerance to non-muslim people. These people are often activists that are ready to spend large amounts of time on opinion forming webpages such as WikiPedia. This explains why I and other non-activists have given up contributing, simply because we would get reverted immidiately and we don't have the time to monitor the pages 24-7. Feel free to continue making WikiPedia more and more unbalanced but you will be removing yourself from the rest of the population :) 93.161.107.118 (talk) 11:30, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Please try to focus the discussion more on the article itself. I.e. which part is unbalanced? And also be bold and DO contribute to or create other article that deal with atrocities against Christians, but make sure you stick to criteria for notability. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a means for instigating things that are not (widely) known in themselves. Thank you for you effort and consideration. Mootros (talk) 15:49, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
::::: "be bold and DO contribute" We try, but as we don't dedicate our lives to monitor it 24 hours a day, it always gets reverted by enthusiastic activists. --131.188.3.21 (talk) 13:24, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Much worse things happen against christians all over the muslim world but you don't cover it to this extent.
:::: I'm not sure who "you" is referring to here - we're all editing wikipedia after all, and you're just as capable as anyone else of adding information to articles. If you feel there are specific, notable incidents covered by reliable sources, which do not currently have articles, please feel free to create them. --ElijahOmega (talk) 18:26, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
You know just as well as I that due to the sheer numbers of activists with an agenda patrolling WikiPedia, such an article would get censored or politically corrected immidiately. The average person is chanceless here and would be bullied out. It would require several people with significant spare time to be able to contribute something, the discussions on the talk pages alone would take full time work defending against the PC hordes. WikiPedia is heavily dominated by people with a political correctness agenda, just look at something like this -->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Discrimination
How on Earth could you let WikiPedia become driven by political ideologies and agendas like this? The so called neutral point of view is a joke LOL, there is no hope left for wikipedia unless you get radically cleaned up. I think it's very sad that WikiPedia got hijacked like this but I suppose it was predictable... 93.161.106.23 (talk) 20:50, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
: There is an article on Persecution of Christians. Feel free to expand on it (with reliable, notable sources) if you feel it is lacking.

I remain rather bewildered by your use of the word "you," since you are as capable of editing wikipedia as any of the people you rail against.
As regards your claims of some sort of agenda, I would ask you to please assume good faith in other editors.
None of this, however, has anything to do with this article, which is the purpose of this talk page. ElijahOmega (talk) 07:40, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Please try to focus on this article. Mootros (talk) 10:51, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the following part from the article, as I think it is a minor detail to the murder case that is not directly related. It has also sensational connotations. Mootros (talk) 23:33, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I've read that the court permitted Adhäsionsantrag ( i.e. § 406 StPO) which means that the claimant can ask for redress without Zivilklage (i.e. civil code case). How about we put this in the redress section and not in the main crimical trial section? Any takers? Any suggestions? Mootros (talk) 15:37, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Possibly but I personally would wait for a source that mentions this part but also that this is a symbolic part of the sentence as the defendant is indigent. 109.84.40.96 (talk) 09:26, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Has the case led to any reevaluation of whether a law against insults is really such a good thing?  The plan was to lay a fine to keep a nut from yelling nasty things... now a woman is dead.  Did anyone there notice that censorship doesn't actually work? Wnt (talk) 21:24, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
:Of course it doesn't work. Haven't you noticed that fighting with the current ridiculous aggression about racism actually increases racism instead of stopping it? If someone is not white (or is Jewish), you are not even allowed to criticize him, because you will be labeled as racist. This is actually used by a lot of criminals to commit even more crimes without fear of punishment... so people will hate them even more. Of course racism is a bad thing, but balance please, balance. However, Wikipedia is not a forum, so it's the place to discuss about it. We should only try to build an encyclopedia. And very often do we have to fight against sensationalism flowing through from mainstream media. Lot of articles are very skewed and currently I don't see much chance to stop ninja editors for example, who hunt for any article about something not liberal enough, and transform it so that it's just a few sentences about the topic itself, and hundreds of lines about who criticized it (even if they are just some unknown bloggers or journalists), and how evil it is. And, of course, try to find at least one word of criticism about articles from the opposite side. Even about anarchy. Nope. I'm sorry I went through all of this, I just wanted to answer your question... and maybe to tell those who have the editing style described above, and do it in a good faith, thinking they are fighting for a good cause: if you fight too harsh against racism, you will increase and indirectly encourage racism. By fighting too harsh against antisemitism, you will increase antisemitism, and make even more people believe in conspiracy theories. --131.188.3.21 (talk) 22:37, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a forum. --ElijahOmega (talk) 22:57, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Of course it's not a forum. However, when the subject is about something not libertarian enough, then wikipedia IS a forum, and all can brag about how the article is presented in right-extremist point of view (even if every second sentence is about how this or that criticized the subjects as being evil fascists). This is what I wanted to point out, as it's becoming a real problem, and because of this less and less people take Wikipedia seriously and more and more regard it as some sort of propaganda for some silly conspiracy theories. But as both us us said, it's not a forum, so I'll stop here and now. I think we should discuss this at the village pump in more detail. Any ideas where else? --131.188.3.21 (talk) 11:09, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Y Mootros (talk) 02:55, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Well, I understand striking through the first paragraph, you are absolutely right. But when you accuse me of something and don't let me answer the accusations, that would be a very unethical and disruptive behavior. Please reconsider the difference between moderating out a discussion based on the principles of Wikipedia, and moderating out based on whether you agree with it or not. --131.188.3.21 (talk) 12:31, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
I should note that the short question I asked to begin this section was in fact a question - whether my reaction was represented in German-language sources or not.  I say it is necessary to summarize a point of view in order to ask about it.  I unstrike this in protest. Wnt (talk) 16:38, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Murder of Marwa El-Sherbini/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Sanguis Sanies (talk) 10:54, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
This seems an interesting article and has been on the Good Article Nomination page for a while, so I'll review it.


### Criteria
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it well written?
A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct: 

B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation: 
Insufficient lead
Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?
A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline: 

B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose): 

C. It contains no original research: 

D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism: 

Is it broad in its coverage?
A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic: 

B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style): 

Is it neutral?
It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each: 

Is it stable?
It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute: 

Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content: 
Not the best pictures, but they'll do
B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions: 

Overall:
Pass or Fail: 
Article has failed. The lead is insufficient and two prominent sentences (detailed below) could stand as BLP violations as they are not properly CITEd. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 23:57, 12 December 2009 (UTC)


#### Major Changes still needed
I'm adding this so that those who edit the article will now the high priority changes that are needed to the article. The article is on hold until the 12 December 2009 if the changes are not made then the article will be failed.
My first thought is that the lead is way to short for an article this size, there should probably be three paragraphs for the lead, the current paragraph is really fine as is, but a second paragraph should be added to include a summation of her death and a third should be added to include a summation of the response (both local and international) to her death. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 11:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done by Tschild and Mootros (talk) 21:21, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
"During the trial Wiens claimed mitigating circumstances for the act of insulting El-Sherbini, suggesting that "people like her" were not real human beings and therefore legally incapable of being insulted." has no CITE and could stand as a BLP violation. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done Mootros (talk) 17:53, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
"mistook Elwi Ali-Okaz for the attacker and shot him in the lower leg." Really needs a CITE. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done (by Tschild, I think) Mootros (talk) 17:53, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
"Redress for victim's family" Since this is only a single sentence does this really needs it's own section, particularly a == level two section == I would prefer it to be integrated into the section above, but if it can be expanded then a === level three section === would be more appropriate. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done Mootros (talk) 17:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


### Lead/Infobox
My first thought is that the lead is way to short for an article this size, there should probably be three paragraphs for the lead, the current paragraph is really fine as is, but a second paragraph should be added to include a summation of her death and a third should be added to include a summation of the response (both local and international) to her death. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 11:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done by Tschild and Mootros (talk) 21:22, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
The infobox picture is currently up for deletion from wikimedia commons. From what I can gather from babelfish's rather appalling translation is that the image is not a good enough picture of Marwa El-Sherbini, or rather, that too much of the image is taken up by the flowers. We shall have to adopt a wait-and-see-approach to how this turns out. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 11:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

apparently the rationale given in the original deletion request is that the photograph (of the photograph + flowers arrangement) is partly a photograph of a photograph and thus might violate the copyright of the rights holder of the photographed photograph ... Tschild (talk) 08:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
That seems like a fun debate... like I said we'll have to wait an see. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 15:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
A thought occurs to me; if this is deleted off commons, couldn't it just simply be uploaded directly to wikipedia? Sanguis Sanies (talk) 09:00, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
The photograph in question has now been replaced by another of the memorial event, where the photographed photographs are much less prominent. I suppose that takes care of the contention that prompted the deletion request for the original photograph. Tschild (talk) 18:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
As for infobox-proper I have a minor question; her nationality is listed as Egyptian, whilst I have no doubt this was true was she also a German national? Sanguis Sanies (talk) 11:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

No reference in any of the sources that I have seen that she had, or had applied for, German citizenship. She certainly was a legal resident in Germany (and the family apparently considered, before the murder, to stay in Germany), but that would not mean German nationality (as of the time of her murder). Tschild (talk) 08:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Cool Sanguis Sanies (talk) 15:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC)


### Early Life/Life in Dresden
My initial thoughts for these two sections is that there are only three sentences that are cited, running through a (again very badly translated) version the cites used, both support the claims made in each sentence and the refs should be added to the end of each sentence rather than the paragraph as this helps towards verifiability. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 11:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done Mootros (talk) 18:09, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
"In 2008, the couple and their two-year-old son moved to Dresden" since the couple moved to Germany in 2005 this would imply there son was born in Germany, correct? Do we have any information to this effect? relatively minor detail. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 11:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
"At the time of her death El-Sherbini was three months pregnant with her second child." Is there any evidence that the couple knew they were pregnant? I can't imagine an autopsy was the best way to find out. Again minor details. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 11:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done Mootros (talk) 18:09, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Is it possible for these two sections to be expanded a little? If not then that's fine, but it just seems a bit threadbare at the moment. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 11:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done through clarifying the above. Mootros (talk) 18:09, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


### Court Case and attack
[Note 1] states that German media called him "Alex" however ref 5 (and presumably others) also call him "Alexander" the same as the British press, could the note be reworded to something like "and was referred to as Alex W. and/or Alexander W. in the German and British media." Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done Mootros (talk) 19:56, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
"but claiming German ethnic origin" needs a CITE. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done (by Tschild, I think) Mootros (talk) 16:22, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
"public playground for children" most playgrounds are for children, bit of redundancy. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Done by Tschild Mootros (talk) 19:56, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
"was called "Islamist", "terrorist" and (according to one report) "slut"." was called by who? A minor clarification is needed. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Done by Tschild Mootros (talk) 19:57, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Do we really need [Note 3]? Maybe a better clarification is needed that German courts issue fines (rather than say the police, as in other European countries) and that no trial is held. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Thought that was the clarification. The point was that "courts can penalise without hearing", if the accused person agrees admits deed and guilt "in the post", regardless whether the public prosecutor acts on be half of a "private person", a police officer, or on own accord. For a road traffic offence committed in England, the police might "tell" a magistrate about it, who may send out a letter asking to just pay up and one does don't need to turn up, if one thinks not being guilty of the deed in question. Still a judicial process. Mootros (talk) 17:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

"During the trial Wiens claimed mitigating circumstances for the act of insulting El-Sherbini, suggesting that "people like her" were not real human beings and therefore legally incapable of being insulted." has no CITE and could stand as a BLP violation. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done Mootros (talk) 20:35, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
"openly xenophobic character of the incident" maybe "openly xenophobic nature of the incident" is a better way of putting it? Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Could professional and lay judges be wikilinked? Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately there is no useful English wikipedia article on the distinction in Germany (the Schöffe article isn't really useful.) Tschild (talk) 17:10, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
"(this question was disallowed by the judge)." Could do with a cite. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Done. Tschild (talk) 17:10, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
"Wiens attacked her with an 18 cm (7 in) long blade, which he had taken into the courtroom in his backpack." Could probably do with two CITEs, one to confirm the size of the blade and one to confirm he kept it in his backpack (as opposed to his belt, or wherever). Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Added one cite covering both facts. Tschild (talk) 18:54, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

"mistook Elwi Ali-Okaz for the attacker and shot him in the lower leg." Really needs a CITE. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Done. Tschild (talk) 18:54, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

"Her three-year-old son was also injured " Do we know the extent of the sons injuries? minor detail. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Could involuntary manslaughter and denial of assistance be wikilinked? Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 Done Mootros (talk) 20:46, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
If the mother is dead and the father is in a coma for two days (and so presumably in hospital for a while longer) do we know what happened to the son in the intervening time? who looked after him, etc. minor detail. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


### Murder Trail
"perfidiousness" could definitely do with a wikilink, maybe to wikitionary if applicable. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

"as the defendant in 1991 was declared" could do with a rewording, "as the defendant was declared in 1991" better? Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done Mootros (talk) 11:24, 12 January 2010 (UTC) (i.e. 1999)
[Note 4]: is there an English language page for Nebenklage? Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done Reworded note. Mootros (talk) 13:43, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Why were French lawyers involved? Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done Mootros (talk) 11:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC) Following note added: "According to EU regulations, lawyers from other EU countries can represent client's in courts in Germany, whereas lawyers from non-EU countries can merely give legal advice but not represent in court."
Very useful; it pointed out a minor inconsistency that not all eight lawyers were "representing", but were "present" on the first day. Thanks! Mootros (talk) 13:34, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

"This was denied by a separate panel that had ruled on this motion." could do with a CITE. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done by Tschild. Thank you kindly! Mootros (talk) 17:57, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
"Wiens injured himself in a fit of rage," Do we know the extent of the injury? Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

"with a finding of particular gravity of guilt." What? Is this badly worded or a peculiarity of German law that a person can be found "more" guilty?  Could this be clarified (either rewording or a [Note] added). Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

"particular gravity of guilt" is a translation of "besondere Schwere der Schuld", a term used in the German Criminal code (§ 57a (1) 2 StGB) as a condition for not being eligible for parole after 15 years. Tschild (talk)
Ahh, so its "found guilty of a heinous crime" would be the English equivalent, perhaps that information could be added to the article (even if as a [Note]) Sanguis Sanies (talk) 15:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 Done Thank you both. Mootros (talk) 12:04, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

"This requires the convict to serve a minimum of 18 years before a board will review the possibility of parole for the first time.[4]" I'm a little iffy about this sentence, was it mandated in this case or it typical of all cases like this, and therefore subject to WP:CRYSTALBALL? Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done Reasonable point! Here the replacement: "It meant that Weins was given the maximum sentence for this crime" Mootros (talk) 12:13, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
"Redress for victim's family" Since this is only a single sentence does this really needs it's own section, particularly a == level two section == I would prefer it to be integrated into the section above, but if it can be expanded then a === level three section === would be more appropriate. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done Mootros (talk) 17:31, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


### Responses
"only in the light of the vociferous protests" can "vociferous" be wikilinked, to wikitionary if appropriate. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Are translations of the posters contained in the photo available? If they are can they be added to the caption. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done within wikimedia.org Mootros (talk) 17:47, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
"Response by Muslim and Jewish bodies" I can understand Muslim, but why Jewish? were other religious organisations not as vocal? Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:36, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

The response by the Central Council of Jews in Germany is notable IMO as other religious organizations were not in fact as vocal - that was IMO connected to the Zentralrat representative correctly anticipating at the time the Egyptian and Generally Muslim expectation of explicit statements denouncing the murder, while other parties were blindsided by these expectations. Basically, a lot of official Germany did not issue statements at this time because condemning such a heinous murder goes without saying; Mr. Kramer of the Zentralrat rightly saw that stating the obvious was necessary at the time, in view of Muslims' expectations. Tschild (talk) 18:48, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


### Other thoughts and Comments
Ref numbers 20, 39, 47, 63 and 79 are all dead links and will need to be re-found or replaced. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the check. Replaced #20 and #39 with new URLs. Will look at the others later. Tschild (talk) 08:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
#79  http://ummatpublications.com/2009/07/23/story5.html looks to be dead for good - unfortunately it was in Urdu, is not old enought to be already in archive.org and the single source for the sentence "According to Karachi-based newspaper Ummat, there were protests in Istanbul and Paris, while a protest in Amman organised by the Islamic Action Front was allegedly cancelled as the Governor did not want to jeopardise a scheduled German aid programme.". What to do? Tschild (talk) 14:57, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
There are two possibilities; either find another CITE that states the same (or similar) thing, or simply delete the claim. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 06:59, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
Deleted #47, replaced #63 with another URL (now #62 due to #47 being deleted); deleted #79 along with statements not supported in another source. Tschild (talk) 19:15, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
There is no See also section. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Those editing the article seem not to have found related Wikipedia articles that could be linked in such a section yet. Tschild (talk) 18:36, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Additionally not all (though to be fair most) CITEs are formatted properly. CITE templates can be a big help, especially {{cite web}} and {{cite news}}. Sufficient CITEs are formatted correctly for this not to affect GA status, but it is still nice to future editors to have it all sorted properly. Also the cite templates that are used are all put in vertically leading the edit page to be a bit difficult to navigate at times, can the extra line breaks be removed for the cite templates as this not only makes editting easier but shaves a few extra bytes of the article. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Additionally <ref group=> does not need the "name=" parameter if it is only being used once. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Despite the reasonably minor nit-picking above this is a very well written and exemplary well referenced article. Kudos all round. Sanguis Sanies (talk) 12:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Murder of Marwa El-Sherbini/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Matthewedwards :  Chat   22:39, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Hi. I'll be reviewing this article against the Good article criteria. I have already checked it against the "quick fail criteria", and it passes that, so I will now begin the "review proper". This may take me up to two days, so please be patient :)
I will be back soon with a complete review. All the best, Matthewedwards :  Chat   22:39, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)


### It is reasonably well written
a (prose):  b (MoS): 
There's no need to bold the article name in the lede, because the article is about the murder, not the person. Additionally, the article name, "The murder of Marwar El-Sherbini", is purely descriptive wouldn't need to be bolded if that was used in the Lede. Done Mootros (talk) 19:15, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Don't WP:OVERLINK common terms such as Egypt, German, Germany, Egyptian, Russia, Iran, Pakistan, Arab, Muslim, Jewish  Done Mootros (talk) 19:21, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"Other noteworthy characteristics of this murder were that the perpetrator was motivated by hostility and prejudice against the victim's race and religion and committed the criminal offence in front of a child, while also attacking the victim's husband who tried to intervene." is a very long and difficult sentence. Can it be split into two instead?  Done Mootros (talk) 19:31, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"Especially in Egypt there was considerable public and media attention on the hate crime aspect of the offence." Is not a complete sentence  Done Mootros (talk) 19:31, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"This stood in sharp contrast to media reports in Germany, where according to common media practice there was no mentioning of the race and nationality of the victim. El-Sherbini was merely referred to as a women who was killed in court while having acted as a witness." These two sentences are directly related to the same thing, and should probably be joined with a semi-colon.  Done Mootros (talk) 19:31, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Wikilink mass media  Done Mootros (talk) 19:31, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"In 2008, the couple and their two-year-old son moved to Dresden, where her husband, a lecturer" --- the sentence starts with the couple, not El-Sherbini, so instead of her husband, you should say Ali-Okaz   Done Mootros (talk) 20:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Wikilink "epithets"  Done Mootros (talk) 20:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"After formally objecting and refusing to pay the fine,[1] During the trial Wiens claimed mitigating circumstances for the act of insulting El-Sherbini, suggesting that "people like her" were not really human beings and therefore incapable of being insulted." Are these two different sentences? During has a captial D, but the first part After formally objecting and refusing to pay the fine, does not make a full sentence. Fixing is not as simple as making During into during as the sentence still will not make grammatical sense  Done Mootros (talk) 20:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC) Added lost clause.
"Alex Wiens as the defendant," we know his name now, so you can refer to him from hereon-in as just "Wiens".   Done Mootros (talk) 20:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"a panel of one professional and two lay judges, the prosecutor, Alex Wiens as the defendant, his court-appointed defence counsel, El-Sherbini as witness for the prosecution, and her husband and son as observers." would be better using semi-colons rather than commas as separators
I'd rather not. Mootros (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"(this question was disallowed by the judge)." Can this be written into normal text without parentheses?  Done Mootros (talk) 20:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"done with great force and so sudden that the victim sustained no defensive injuries." -- Done with is not suitable WP:TONE for an encyclopedic entry.  Done Mootros (talk) 20:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Is "(time-stamped by the judge having raised a security alarm)." necessary? Personally, I don't think it is, but there should be no reason for it to be in parentheses  Done Mootros (talk) 20:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"Marwa El-Sherbini died at the scene, at 11:07,[1] succumbing to her injuries.[20][24] Alex Wiens was arrested on the scene." -- uses on the scene twice in quick succession. Can one instance be recast to avoid the repetition?  Done Mootros (talk) 20:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"Alex Wiens[note 1], who had been born in Perm, Russia," --- "who had been" makes the sentence sound like that fact has changed. "Alex Wiens[note 1], born in Perm, Russia," will suffice
Can't find this. Mootros (talk) 20:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
It appears to have been fixed already. Matthewedwards :  Chat   00:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
"asking police officers to kill him instead." -- but asked would work better than the oddly tensed asking  Done with "while" construction Mootros (talk) 20:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"The fact that the murder victim's husband was wounded by a shot fired by a police officer was widely reported in the media at the time. It was cited as indicative of racism by the victim's brother." -- This is a parastub and should be expanded or merged. Does it mean the victim's brother was racist, or the brother accused the cops of being racist? It's currently unclear  Done Mootros (talk) 20:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"Furthermore" is being used as a conjunction, but you can't use a conjunction to begin a sentence in English. Join the two sentences with a semi colon  Done differently Mootros (talk) 20:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure the average reader will understand what "perfidiousness". Can it be wikilinked to the Wiktionary entry perfidiousness  Done Mootros (talk) 20:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Why "the upper regional court (Oberlandesgericht)." and not "the upper regional court."?  Done Mootros (talk) 20:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"However, as the defendant was declared in 1999" -- use a semi colon rather than having the word "However" begin a sentence, as it's the same rule as with "Furthermore".
"However, as the defendant was declared in 1999 (following a medical examination for mandatory military service in the Russian armed forces) to suffer from severe and chronic psychotic conditions, prosecutors requested relevant information from the Russian authorities." --- try not to have stuff in parentheses.. Suggest recasting the sentence as "however, as the defendant was declared in 1999 to suffer from severe and chronic psychotic conditions during a medical examination for mandatory military service in the |Russian armed forces, prosecutors requested relevant information from the Russian authorities.  Done Mootros (talk) 22:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"coming from" -- can you think of something more appropriate in WP:TONE?  Done Mootros (talk) 21:02, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"Witnesses in the second week of the trial included people present in the original confrontation on the playground. and police officers responding to the attack on 21 August 2008." -- two sentences, joined with an "and" needs addressing  Done Mootros (talk) 21:02, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"Wiens injured himself in a fit of rage," can you describe how?  Done Mootros (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"El-Sherbini was in the initial media reports only referred to as "a 32[sic]-year old witness"." -- the sentences is oddly structured. Consider, In the inital media reports, El-Shervini was referred to as "a 32[sic]-year old witness". The word "only" should be removed.  Done Mootros (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
There's no need to OVERLINK Muslim, Jewish, etc  Done Mootros (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
The paragraphs in the Public commemoration section are short and stubby. Can they be merged at all? That para-sentence that starts the section especially needs attention  Done Mootros (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"For example" is unnecessary. A reader doesn't expect every single anti-German sentiment to be listed. They expect examples, so just tell us the examples.
can't find this. Mootros (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
It appears to have been fixed already. Matthewedwards :  Chat   00:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Aljazera is a television network, and per WP:ITALICS should not be italicised.  Done Mootros (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Why are there two sections for International reactions and Media and public reaction to murder trial? Aren't they basically the same? The sections would have more power if they were just one merged section.  Done Mootros (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)


### It is factually accurate and verifiable
a (references):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR): 
In-line references should all be placed immediately after punctuation, not before
Checked for reasonable use. Should be fine now in light of discussion below. Mootros (talk) 11:31, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Ref 13 is from Die Welt, and uses the webcitation archive; however, it says the original is at topnews.de, which is not Die Welt's website
 Done Mootros (talk) 11:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Unless the German language references have English language translations in their titles, do not add them yourself, as this could be seen as WP:SYNTH or WP:OR
Not sure I fully understand what you're trying to say. All tiles in square parenthesis are translations that I or user:Tshild have provided. In some cases, translations were agreed after discussions with other editors. There are not published translations. WP:SYNTH clearly states the following: "Where English translations of non-English material are unavailable, Wikipedia editors may supply their own, with the original provided alongside or in a footnote. If such translations are challenged, editors should cooperate in producing one they can agree on. Copyright restrictions permitting, translations published by reliable sources are preferred over those provided by Wikipedia editors."
Okay. I must have completely missed that! That's fine then -- I have no issue with this any more. Matthewedwards :  Chat   00:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
There is a reference for Marwa's father's name, but none for her mother's. (Ref 14 mentions her mother's name)
All I can see is the word "father" in a title. Mootros (talk) 21:58, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
Ref 14, http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/artikel.asp?id=2209078 gives El-Sherbini's mother's name. I added it in to the article. Matthewedwards :  Chat   00:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. See what you mean. Mootros (talk) 11:28, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
"Wiens was held on remand on suspicion of murder of Marwa El-Sherbini[16] and attempted murder of Elwi Ali Okaz.[35] " --- don't place refs mid-sentence. They should appear after punctuation: "Wiens was held on remand on suspicion of murder of Marwa El-Sherbini and attempted murder of Elwi Ali Okaz.[16][35]" There are other instances throughout the article
I have reservations here. We have placed references not "mid-sentence", but (sometimes) at the end of a clause after a comma or before an "and". If there is a rule that they should be merely at the end of a sentences, it should IMHO be overruled, because of the general principle of verifiability. It would be a "great lost" having several rerferences at the end of longer sentences that reference different facts within one sentences, without being able to instantly see what is refered by which source. Of course, all this should be done within reason. What do you think? Mootros (talk) 22:34, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
There is no rule that they should be placed only at the end of sentences. There are two pages, WP:REFPUNC and WP:CITE#Inline citations that say they can go in the middle of the sentence, but that usually they follow any punctuation (except dashes). When they do appear mid sentence, they should only be for material that is likely to be challenged: "An inline citation should appear next to the material it supports. If the material is particularly contentious, the citation may be added within a sentence, but adding it to the end of the sentence or paragraph is usually sufficient." So facts such as El-Sherbini's father's name, and that Wiens was held on remand on suspicion of murdering El-Sherbini are not particularly contentious, and I wouldn't find it odd to have those references at the end of the sentence. We can put it down to editor's personal choice, and if this is how the article's editors preference, then I'm fine for it being that way. Matthewedwards :  Chat   00:38, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
"On the beginning of the third day of the trial, Wiens injured himself in a fit of rage,[58][64] but was judged fit to stand trial after medical examination." -- can you find a reference for the second half of the sentence?  Done Mootros (talk) 21:58, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"El-Sherbini was in the initial media reports only referred to as "a 32[sic]-year old witness"." a direct quote requires a reference immediately following it.
 Done Mootros (talk) 11:34, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
"...expressed condolence to the "young woman and her family"." -- this too needs a reference for the quote
 Done Mootros (talk) 11:34, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
"Although there was no official statement from the government in Pakistan,[87] Pakistani media reported the killing." Reference an article or two as examples.
 Done Removed entire sentence and clarified heading. Mootros (talk) 11:50, 8 April 2010 (UTC)


### It is broad in its coverage
a (major aspects):  b (focused): 
yes


### It follows the neutral point of view policy
Fair representation without bias: 
Why does the article keep saying "the murder victim"? It seems like a newspaper article, in the way that it's trying to elicit emotion, and that I should be feeling something. Why can't it just say El-Sherbini?  Done Yes the word "victim" by far outnumbered the word "perpetrator"  I've removed infactal or questionable useage, as well as some rather clumsy constructions such as "murder victim's husband". I've left it in where there are actual contextual links to crime or legal  issues. Mootros (talk) 22:23, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
"At the time of her death El-Sherbini was three months pregnant and looking forward to the birth to her second child in Germany." We don't know that she was looking forward to it, but even if it does say that in the reference, it's not for us to put an emotional spin on her life and mention that part. "At the time of her death El-Sherbini was three months pregnant with her second child." would be fine  Done I've removed the emotional undertone by rewording this to "At the time of her death El-Sherbini was three months pregnant and expecting her second child to be born in Germany." Previously there were questions precisly on this matter: whether the pregancy became known through an autopsy. Mootros (talk) 22:23, 6 April 2010 (UTC)


### It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.: 
no issues here
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free   images have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions): 
The only image in the article is licensed correctly, and the caption is fine


### Overall:
There are many issues with prose and sourcing that need addressing before this can become listed as a WP:GA. I am putting the nomination on hold for 7 days for the article's editors to address the issues raised. Good luck!
Pass/Fail: 

The article is coming along nicely. Well done to Mootros and any other editors who have helped so far. Matthewedwards :  Chat   00:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank kindly Matthewedwards for this review and your detailed comments. You restored my faith into formal writing. :) Mootros (talk) 12:37, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
You're most welcome. It's been a pleasure to review the article. I noticed that quite a lot of additional material has been added since I first conducted the review, but I think it's almost ready to be promoted to WP:GA. There are still a few things stopping me at the moment, though:
As the Lede section is used to introduce the article, it does not need to contain references unless there is something in there that isn't mentioned later in the rest of the article. (WP:LEDE)  DoneMootros (talk) 10:42, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Some references do not have accessdates, which will need to be put in. (Refs [72]  [74], [77], [78], [85])  DoneMootros (talk) 10:42, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Refs [67], [68], [70], [87] are raw URLs and needs formatting  DoneMootros (talk) 10:42, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
The line "The fact that the murder victim's husband was wounded by a shot fired by a police officer was widely reported in the media at the time. It was cited as indicative of racism in Germany by the victim's brother." is confusing. Who is the victim's brother here? El Sherbini's brother, or Okaz's brother? Please clarify by using the names  DoneMootros (talk) 10:42, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
All raw external links should be made into references. There's one in Note 1, one in the Response by Muslim and Jewish bodies section  DoneMootros (talk) 10:42, 11 April 2010 (UTC) For Note 1 see blelow.
The references in Note 2 needs <ref></ref> tags
I've tried this, but citations in notes appears to be not possible: technical limitation.
If possible, try to find references for the other Notes, too
I've added some Interlanguage links and a wiki link. Mootros (talk) 10:42, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
That should be all. Best of luck, Matthewedwards :  Chat   08:28, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
OK, following the latest round of edits, I'm happy to say that I think this article fully meets WP:GA?, and so I will be listing it at WP:GA. Very well done to Mootros and all the other editors of this article. Matthewedwards :  Chat   21:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Pass/Fail: 

According to this article:  "Controversy is a state of prolonged public dispute or debate, usually concerning a matter of opinion..."
How can the murder of a person be a controversy? Disallowing to wear certain clothing may be controversial as a reaction to a murder would surely lead to a controversy. Similarly how can a reaction to a crime be a state of prolonged public dispute or debate. There is a difference between matter of opinion and prolonged public dispute. There is no evidence that the killing of El-Sherbini has resulted in a prolonged public dispute about cross-cultural communication. Or is there? In other words, what precisely is the dispute or debate in question? Mootros (talk) 08:29, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I think some Egyptians were disappointed about the rather moot reactions in Germany. I think in Egypt this was perceived as, roughly, "they are killing our women because they are muslim", while in Germany it was more often perceived as "one immigrant killing another one" or, at best, "another Russian criminal". I don't think there was much debate within either society, though. Yaan (talk) 09:09, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I know this comes directly from one newpaper article [4] and this was added hastaly on request of a reviewer who wanted clarification as to why there were French and Egyptian lawyers in court, but:
Does anyone know what EU regulations are these and more importantly what German legislation do enshrine them? Or is this merely a case of lawyers making a defacto case on the EU regulations in the absence  of national law? Also the mentioned distinction of representing and practising strikes me as unusual for the German context. Anyone, any idea? Many thanks, Mootros (talk) 10:51, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Some starting point here http://www.kostenlose-urteile.de/EuGH-zur-Zulassung-von-Buergern-anderer-EU-Staaten-zum-deutschen-Rechtsreferendariat.news8912.htm
Maybe the relevant German regulation is No. 138/3 StPO? I am no lawyer, so I can only guess. Yaan (talk) 09:02, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks! Very useful. Mootros (talk) 21:19, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
I've made some progress on the issues too. Some brainstorming, for the time being. Further comments welcome:

Directive 2005/36/EC on Professional qualifications
Distinction between something called außergerichtliche Rechtsdienstleistungen [outside-court] and Rechtsdienstleistungen im gerichtlichen Verfahren [related to court procedures]. The former is nationally regulated by Rechtsdienstleistungsgesetz [5] and the latter by different types of Prozessordnung depending on area of law (e.g criminal or private law).
And here the new version:

 Done Mootros (talk) 22:56, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

The article is currently under review for FA. It has been suggested to copy edit it to 'fix grammar and punctuation problems' Please let me know if you are willing to undertake this. Many thanks! Mootros (talk) 08:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Should be OK now, more or less. Mootros (talk) 13:25, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I have removed the translation of offensichtlich unbegründet "justification" for the rejection decision as stated in the press. The court's document should be out within a few days here:
http://juris.bundesgerichtshof.de/cgi-bin/rechtsprechung/list.py?Gericht=bgh&Art=en&Datum=Aktuell&Sort=12288
Mootros (talk)

 Done Mootros (talk) 07:04, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

http://www.rp-online.de/panorama/deutschland/justiz/Lebenslang-fuer-Mord-im-Gerichtssaal_aid_870971.html

Thanks! Useful. Mootros (talk) 06:15, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

http://www.lto.de/recht/nachrichten/n/mord-lg-dresden-aegypterin-un-anti-rassismus-ausschuss/
http://www.focus.de/regional/sachsen/prozesse-familie-von-getoeteter-aegypterin-legt-beschwerde-bei-un-ein_aid_1033564.html
http://www.dnn-online.de/dresden/web/dresden-nachrichten/detail/-/specific/Familie-von-in-Dresden-getoeteter-aegypterin-Marwa-legt-Beschwerde-bei-UN-ein-45121164
Looking for English sources at the moment and waiting what transpires from this complaint. Mootros (talk) 15:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

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Seems like it would be a good idea for this page to link to the corresponding German Wikipedia page. However the German page is not de:Ermordung_von_Marwa_El-Sherbini, but de:Marwa_El-Sherbini. I tried to add the link under Languages in the left-hand column, but the wikidata page seems not to want to allow me to generate the link, given the different approaches to naming the article in the two languages.
For the time being I've placed a link in the lead after El-Sherbini's name. Perhaps someone more experienced can come up with a better solution. - Aingotno (talk) 15:28, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

I requested the two wikidata entries be merged, if and when that is complete the interwiki link will show up on the sidebar. nableezy - 16:40, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
and done. removed from opening sentence now too. nableezy - 18:21, 30 March 2019 (UTC)