# Talk:Mrs. Ngô Bá Thành

Photo discussion can be found here. SusunW (talk) 13:32, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Discussion of how to name the article is here SusunW (talk) 15:00, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm going to propose that was the Henri Lévy-Ullmann prize. Lévy-Ullmann was a French legal scholar, and you can see at https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/resrep24971.5.pdf that there was such a prize, from French law schools. I can't find a Levy Uliman prize anywhere. --GRuban (talk) 17:54, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

GRuban you are the best! Thank you. Yes, the translation of names was not good. Dag Hammarskjöld was broken into a lot of syllables, but fortunately I could figure out what that was. I appreciate you. SusunW (talk) 18:20, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

If you have the time or interest, I would appreciate your review and copyedit of this article. I have asked George for help with the photos. As much as it pains me to obscure her identity behind her husband's after consultation, this seems the best way to style it. I'd like to nominate her for WIG's editathon this month, if we can finish the review and get photos. SusunW (talk) 17:21, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Good to hear from you again after quite a long break. Looks interesting. I'll go through it tomorrow.--Ipigott (talk) 17:51, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
Whatever they say, I really think you should title it Phạm Thị Thanh Vân with any Mrs/Madam redirects you think are necessary.--Ipigott (talk) 17:55, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
I thought so too, but was overruled. I did a bunch of redirects. It's difficult because "my" instinct is that it is disrespectful to call her by her first name and hide her identity behind her husband's, but culturally, after numerous on and off wiki discussions, that is the respectful way to name her. I appreciate your help. SusunW (talk) 19:04, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
I don't see it as disrespectful to use the name she used for all of her publications. I don't think we can just decide to use her personal name instead of the name she used professionally, at least not without some evidence that she would have preferred to use her personal name. —Kusma (talk) 15:07, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
(talk page watcher) It looks very odd, to me, to refer to her in the article by a name which is not part of the article title: very confusing, even if it's what an expert recommends. PamD 22:27, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
PamD I totally get it. But WP rule says call her by what the sources call her, which is most often her husband's name. No title, no changes, his exact name. That to me seemed absolutely ludicrous, so I began asking what to do. SusunW (talk) 22:39, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
SusunW: You've certainly made a great job of researching her life. I've carried out an initial copy edit but I have the feeling that in the light of her considerable importance, it might be necessary to undertake a more careful review. I feel quite strongly about the title. Although the Vietnamese article is titled Bà Ngô Bá Thành (Mrs Ngô Bá Thành) and her writings are ascribed to "Ngô, Bá Thành (Mrs.)", despite the advice you have received from Wikipedia experts, I think you should call her by her own name rather than that of her husband. Otherwise the article is well written and there was not much to change expect the link to what should have been Henry Cabot Lodge Jr. I see that the French National Library includes this reference to her own name, which should eventually appear under authority control. Jimmy Wales keeps reminding us that there are no rules on Wikipedia. I think this is a case in which we should stand on our principles, break the so-called rules developed by others, and restore Phạm Thị Thanh Vân as the title of the article. You can then use a note to explain the alternatives. On this, I would welcome reactions from Rosiestep, Victuallers, Tagishsimon and Johnbod.--Ipigott (talk) 13:37, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
I would definitely appreciate the input as it is a conundrum. I should point out that I put the Mrs. in her publications. Both her husband's and her own publications in worldcat are simply listed as Ngo, Ba Thanh, so one must wade through whether they are about fish or law. I am happy to call it by whatever consensus is, and perhaps that should take place on the article talk page? Thank you so much for your copyediting expertise. I appreciate your help very much. Repinging Johnbod. SusunW (talk) 13:42, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
You're really quick in picking things up Susun. I was in the process of reviewing my changes and discovered one or two errors had already been fixed (but not too happy about removing the wl on Nixon who might not be known to everyone). And here you repinged Johnbod although I had fixed the typo within less than a minute! But it's great to know there's such reliable double-checking. In future, I'll be more careful and make better use of "Show preview"---Ipigott (talk) 13:51, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
End of copy.--Ipigott (talk) 13:59, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Also pinging @Kusma and GRuban: for input on this issue. SusunW (talk) 14:58, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
My first instinct would also have been to use her own name, but the sources I was looking through for images do call her Mrs. Ngo Ba Thanh without exception. (It's sort of like Jimmy Carter in that way; respectful usage vs common usage.) So I can support Susun's choice. --GRuban (talk) 15:26, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
I wouldn't be too surprised if sources turn up in a couple of years that do prefer her personal name, but as long as we don't have them, I don't think we can ignore the sources and substitute our own opinion. Note also that the only reason this is an issue is that the name she used professionally was her husband's name; we would use any pseudonym with this level of usage without hesitation. —Kusma (talk) 15:38, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for weighing in GRuban and Kusma. I appreciate the robust discussion. My instinct is never to obscure a woman's identity, regardless of what was customary in her era. But as both of you have pointed out, it was not only common to refer to her by her husband's name, it was her professional identity and the name she published under. And yes, I also took into consideration the pen name angle. Do I like calling her Mrs. him, no. Do I think it is the best solution, probably. SusunW (talk) 15:41, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
Yes, agree with that. The first line, currently "Phạm Thị Thanh Vân, often referred to as Mrs. or Madame Ngo Ba Thanh", should probably be switched around so the article title comes first. Johnbod (talk) 17:49, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for that suggestion Johnbod. I've given that a go. Please feel free to edit it if you can think of a better way to word it. SusunW (talk) 18:37, 25 October 2023 (UTC)