# Talk:Isie Smuts

Photos before page 4 or after page 8, p 148 and 152 of this 1917 book could be used, but I have no idea how to flip the last two or straighten them. SusunW (talk) 22:04, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
This photo on WP.af says that it was published in Toesprake Deur Die Hoog- Edelagbare J. C. Smuts. That book was published in South Africa 1941 per Amazon and Worldcat. I have no access to this book, but if the publishing date can be confirmed, copyright in South Africa expired 50 years later, thus in 1991 and prior to the URAA date of 1996. SusunW (talk) 16:13, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
The photo immediately preceding page 179 appears to be in the public domain in the US. Published in 1943 in the US, it was marked copyrighted by Akkersdyk Studio of Cape Town. South African copyright on photographs expires 50 years after publication, thus it expired in 1993. Checking the US copyright catalogs, there are no filings for Akkersdyk in the Artworks catalog for 1943. The book which it appeared in was copyrighted as A176283 on 15 October 1943.p. 192 The book copyright was not renewed in 1971, checking both volumes for Crafford and 176283. Not sure of the tagging, whether it would be {{PD-South-Africa}} and {{PD-US-not renewed}} or {{PD-South-Africa}} and {{PD-1996}}. SusunW (talk) 17:24, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
Yay me, I figured out how to flip a photo and have uploaded two. Still working on others. SusunW (talk) 18:16, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
Trying to obtain the 1941 book via inter-library loan. Still need someone @GRuban and GreenMeansGo:? to advise about the licensing on the 1943 book. SusunW (talk) 15:47, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Emailed User:Morne, uploader of the second bullet photo to confirm it's from the book. He is mostly an AF editor, but has edited here on EN. Uploaded the photo from the third bullet. Any source that lists the names of the people in the picture? I mean, I guess they could be non-notable, but Smuts was a very important political figure, it seems not unreasonable that at least some of the family went on to at least some notability. --GRuban (talk) 21:13, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 GRuban (talk) 21:13, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
You are the best! Thanks GRuban. In order of age, the kids were Susanna Johanner "Santa" (1903), Catharina Petronella "Cato" (1904), Jacob Daniel "Japie" (1906–1948), Sybella Margaretha "Sylma" (1908), Jan Christian "Jannie" (1912), and Louis Anne de la Rey (1914). Given that, it seems likely that l-r they are Sylma, Isie, Cato, Japie, Louis, Santa, Jan, and Jannie. Does that look right? Not really sure about whether I have the two oldest girls right. SusunW (talk) 21:29, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
Googling: Santa became the wife of Smuts's farm manager, Andries Weyers; Cato married Bancroft Clark; Sylma married Jack Coaton[1]. Louis became a medical doctor/missionary and married Dennis McIldowie.[2] I don't find enough sources on any of them to confirm notability, but it is also typical for me not to find hits on sourcing in Africa. SusunW (talk) 22:17, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

@Ipigott and SusunW: I created https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Isie_Smuts. Also found there this absolutely wonderful photograph. Only problem is the caption and date. Clearly that child is no more than a year or two old, however, given what Susun just wrote above, negative eight years old is a bit of a stretch.  Ian, as the uploader, can you confirm this is really an 1895 photograph? Susun, can you confirm Santa was born in 1903? At least one of those things is not true. (Our article also says they were only married in 1897 - which isn't nearly as much of a stretch as people do sometimes pose for photos and have children out of wedlock - but is a reason to be extra extra sure about the date here.) --GRuban (talk) 01:34, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
Sorry, GRuban, I cannot confirm the date. I copied it over to Commons as a result of the recommendation I found on the AF wiki. What I found there is the only information I have. Please just put it down to my limited comprehension of copyright law in the United States. But perhaps as for the AF wiki, it would be possible to upload the image on the EN wiki rather than on Commons. Or would that face the same copyright problems?--Ipigott (talk) 06:38, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Aha. Ok, then I'll just change the date from "Omstreeks 1895" to "Omstreeks 1904". Omstreeks just means "roughly" anyway. Just from looking at Jan and Isie Smuts, they're clearly much younger than in their 1921 photograph. Jan Smuts looks a lot like in his 1913 photograph. --GRuban (talk) GRuban (talk) 13:36, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
GRuban Santa was definitely born in 1903[3], and as far as I can tell the first publishing of the photo of Smuts and Jan with Santa seems to have occurred in 1962], so I didn't use it. This 1986 book shows the photo dates to 1904. Can you also capture the other one from the Toesprake Deur Die Hoog- Edelagbare J. C. Smuts where she's looking at a map?  Ipigott Finally got the proof from interlibrary loan of the book that the photo of her in the flowers was indeed published in 1941. SusunW (talk) 13:56, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 --GRuban (talk) 13:53, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
Thank you GRuban and I apologize for taking so long to reply, but I was hip deep in a complicated Cuban woman's article, (comments/editing welcome). One final question for you and Ipigott, I love, love, love the flower photo, but I also think it is likely the best image we have of her at the height of her "public" period. Do we think it should be cropped for the lede to show just her portrait? If we decide to crop it, should we also include the full image? SusunW (talk) 14:10, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
I don't think it should be cropped. A face looking down would not be good. It's fine as it is.--Ipigott (talk) 16:09, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Isie Smuts/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Nominator: SusunW (talk · contribs)
Reviewer: The C of E (talk · contribs) 20:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I will take this on. Might be start of next week when I have time to give it a full in depth look.  The C of E  God Save the King! (talk) 20:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
First glance suggests that as per MOS:LEADLENGTH, the lead is a bit too big and should be cut down.  The C of E  God Save the King! (talk) 20:02, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 Done SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for picking her up. I look forward to working with you to improve the article. I'm hip deep working on another article, so please ping me when you are finished and ready for me to answer. (note 2 u's, no a) SusunW (talk) 18:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Is there a link for PEople's Council (in English or Afrikaans) that could be WP:REDLINKed?
 Done SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
Per WP:IC, citations should be at the end of a sentence and not on a comma.
I don't see that in that info page (not guideline, not policy). It says "Inline citations are often placed at the end of a sentence or paragraph" and "Wikipedia requires inline citations based on the content, not on the grammar and composition elements." I take that to mean where you place the citation depends on what source you are using. I choose to follow standard academic citation style. When the source changes, I make a new citation, but because Wikipedia gives a warning if it doesn't follow a punctuation mark, I do it after punctuation. SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
Why is W. Ackermann important?
Don't really understand what you are asking. Why does he have to be important? I suppose I could take out his name, but then to my mind anyway, "he lived with a neighbor" provides less context and is less accurate than with W. Ackermann. (Especially in light of below where you want the detail that he was in England to speak to British parliamentarians, this seems odd, but maybe I am misunderstanding?) SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
I feel like the second paragraph is more focussed on Jan than Isie
I don't see that. It is a paragraph about them establishing their relationship. She is the subject of 4 sentences, he is the subject of 4 sentences, they (as a couple) are the subjects of 4 sentences. Seems balanced to me, but if you can give me specifics, I'm happy to revisit. SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
More to come.  The C of E  God Save the King! (talk) 18:09, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
The Crown should be capitalised and linked
 Done SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
Just for consistency, are we using Dutch or Afrikaners to describe the Afrikaans-speaking South Africans? (ie. "She feared that the Dutch would be treated unfairly under British rule")
All of the sourcing uses Dutch or Afrikaner interchangeably. I followed that to avoid redundancy, and technically they were indeed Dutch nationals. When Britain acquired a colony, it did not impose nationality upon colonial citizens, but instead left the laws that were in place at the time of acquisition in place. British nationality applied only to persons born in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. South Africa did not have it's own nationality law until the establishment of the union, which was superseded by the British standardized nationality law of 1911. If you think it better to standardize the text I'm happy to do that. SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
"he went to England to try to convince legislators", which legislators?
Sorry, I am confused. Seems logical that if he is in England he is convincing British legislators, who else would be there? I've added British, but if that isn't what you meant, please advise. SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
"gained a reputation as "Tante Isie" (aunt Isie)", reputation or nickname?
Changed it to read "became known as" SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
"The house was made of tin to prevent ants from demolishing it", rather odd phrasing there
Clearly you don't live in the tropics ! I've linked it to Carpenter ants, does that help? (We have some 40,000 different species of ant here in my part of Mexico. We've been in a literal war with the cutter and army ants for months, trying to preserve our garden.) SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
In the source, it doesn't explicitly say that she preferred being barefoot. (Unless I'm reading it wrong, could you clarify please?)
It says that she only wore shoes when she was visiting him in Cape Town: "in the grandeur of Groote Schuur…the only innovation of dress that [Isie] consented to, as Lady Moore observed, was to wear shoes in the house [or] for parties, when she could not avoid them". SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
" were written in Afrikaans, except in the period of the Boer War, possibly to avoid censorship", Wikipedia:SPECULATION and I'm assuming they messaged in English during the War?
yes. I've added "when they wrote in English" SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
"exposing their secret stash. ", Secret stash of what? Again, rather odd wording
Seems clear to me. They hid "clutter" under a chair, which when moved exposed the things they had hidden. Happy to word it another way, or you can just edit it directly. SusunW (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
More to come.  The C of E  God Save the King! (talk) 19:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
The first paragraph of War efforts is also mostly on Jan rather than Isie
It is, but to my mind, needed context. Not a whole lot to say about she was raising children and running the farm that hasn't already been said. But it paints her life, pretty much showing she was living on her own because, basically, he was an absent husband and father. SusunW (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
Where is the bust of her?
No idea, source doesn't say. Don't know where the portraits by Simon Elwes are either. SusunW (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
Apartheid shouldn't be captalised
fixed. SusunW (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
Are there any other views other than Chetty about her? Because I think its a little WP:UNDUE to spend a whole paragraph dedicated to one historian's view of her.
There are, which is actually a little surprising, because women's history is a relatively new field. Chetty's view does not differ from Carisa Smuts' view, who notes that Isie's life reflected the impact of the 3 wars, was confined by the view that women's place was in the home,(pp 91-92) and research on Isie, as a prominent wife of a politician, was important to understand the roles of South African women.(pp 94-95) I do not have access to the first biography written about her by Tom Macdonald, but Smuts,(p 100) states that he wrote "In some ways, her life has been a gift to South Africa, and as she has given the people of South Africa the building blocks on which to build racial peace, her work is lasting. She did much to change the story of South Africa” (Macdonald, 1946, p.12). Searching for that in the snippet, I find it on a different page, i.e. 14. I did not use Smuts because of the familial relationship (not saying she was not impartial in her academic analysis, but she admitted "it is important to note that Isie, as a relative of the researcher, was (and still is) very much admired by some of her surviving family members", so I thought it better to err on the side of caution when evaluating legacy). I also did not use Macdonald because I cannot access it. But, if you think it necessary, I can add this information. SusunW (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
For the Bibliography, are they all being used to cite things in the article. For example, I can't see what the Salvation Army source is referencing.
Everything in the Bibliography is cited in the article. The Salvation Army is the publisher of The War Cry, which is citation 11. SusunW (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
@SusunW: Here concludes my review. I think it is a promising article but there are a few issues that I think might have come about from translation/policy differences between here and the Afrikaans Wikipedia.  But I'll look forward to working with you on it.  The C of E  God Save the King! (talk) 11:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
Nothing I wrote was translated from the Afrikaans WP article. Ian started the article with a translation of 79 words for the lede from the Afrikaans article. He ran into difficulty with another editor and I took over writing it. As a general rule, I never translate articles from other WPs. I may mine them for sources, but as I am responsible for ensuring that the content meets en.WP policies and guidelines, I have to read those sources myself to verify the information and write it to avoid copyvio. SusunW (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
The C of E Thank you very much for your review. I truly appreciate the collaboration and chance to improve the article. I've tried to answer your queries above, but some require additional conversation. Please let me know of next steps. SusunW (talk) 19:13, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
I accept the explanations of the points I raised and I see the remedial suggestions otherwise have been done so I am happy to pass this. Well done @SusunW:.  The C of E  God Save the King! (talk) 08:41, 24 March 2024 (UTC)