# Talk:Jasraj

I cleaned up a recent change that introduced many peacock terms, such as "renowned and revered", "famous across India", and many many more. The new version has a more encyclopedic language. Using the unofficial title "Pandit" and the suffix "-ji" (which most English-language readers don't understand) throughout the article is not advisable, as a Wikipedia article is not meant to be promotional. The praising style not only undermines the neutral point of view the article should have, it also inflated the word count. However, as an encyclopedia we strive for a proper summary style. Hekerui (talk) 10:58, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Dear Editors! There has been a discussion on India Portal related to mentioning of caste of subjects. The point is that mentioning caste of people, who have nothing to do with their caste, is found to be unnecessary by few editors. Hence the caste of the subject person needs to be deleted from the biography. I am not deleting the caste as of now but am only posting this here so that the regular editors of this article are well aware of it beforehand and no edit-wars take place. For details of discussion held on the portal please refer Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics#Mentioning_caste_of_Individuals. Your views if any are welcome there or even here.  And.... as the reasons of exclusion of caste pointed out were "irrelavant to notability of subject person", "privacy of the subject person", "inclusion of caste is like branding individuals", etc. other information included in the article which also fall under these cases will also be removed after discussions. Examples of it included religion, non-notable spouse's and children's and parents' information, previous occupation, lived in places, non-notability related educational qualification, etc.  Your views on this are also welcome here or at the India portal. -Animeshkulkarni (talk) 10:15, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Not here, please. There is a community discussion taking place at WT:INB and I would advise people to read the entire discussion before forming an opinion because the above summary is incorrect. Nothing more need be said here. - Sitush (talk) 01:52, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

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@Curb Safe Charmer: You are not the major contributor in this article. Have you seeked advice/permission of major contributors before nominating this article for GA? If not, please do that or revert you nomination. Major content contributors are: @Rasdhar, Randhirreddy, Ekabhishek,  and Badasamosateja:. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 07:00, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

@Dharmadhyaksha: WP:GANI says "nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article on the article talk page prior to a nomination." I believe I am a significant contributor, with 32 edits to the article. The instructions don't say I should be the major contributor or that I need to seek permission to nominate it - any editor may nominate. However, now that we are all here: @Rasdhar, Randhirreddy, Ekabhishek,  and Badasamosateja: do you have any comments regarding this nomination? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 08:23, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Your 32 edits were mostly of fighting vandals or minor copyedits. Content wise your edits aren't in considerable amount. If you still want the GA review to happen, its going to be a hell lot of comments in the review; especially with unsourced sections and one-liner lead. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 09:06, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for your critique of the MOS:LEADLENGTH. That can easily be fixed. Regarding WP:V which parts of the article do you believe need additional verification? I believe it meets the GA criteria in this regard but I welcome your viewpoint. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 09:41, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Jasraj/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) 16:30, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Comments I'm going to have to quick fail this as it is currently tagged with a dispute notice relating to lack of references.  I will, however, give you some basic comments on things you'll need to address (as well as the tag) before re-nominating.

"8 Dec 2016" expand dates out.
 Done
You mention (and red link) "Pandit Motiram" after you've already referred to him as simply Motiram.  Should be the other way round.
 Done
"happened in this environment...." not encyclopedic tone and needs ref.
 Removed
It is vitally important to ensure that all awards are referenced reliably, we simply can't attribute awards without verification to an individual.
 Done
Discog is completely unreferenced and given that all but one of the items listed aren't even red-linked, there's practically no chance of our readers verifying this information.
 Done
Good luck with future endeavours.  The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 07:36, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: Many thanks for reviewing and for your useful comments. I will work on those. Regarding the tag, this was added by Dharmadhyaksha. I asked him on the article talk page to be specific as to which statements needed further sourcing, but I didn't ping him (as I thought he was about to do a review and so would see it) and he's not replied. If the issue is the discography section, this is already supported by a general reference. How should I apply a reference that sources the whole of a section, rather than line by line? Can the awards section be referenced to the official Jasraj website or would they need to all be third party? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 07:49, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
If all discog entries are supported then an easy way to include that is something like "Source:[1]" at the top of the section.  As for awards, yes, it would be inappropriate to use a primary source for awards, third party RS would be by far the most appropriate way ahead.  The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 07:57, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
I though you were being sarcastic in asking whats unsourced. There are sections unsourced. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 07:59, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
@Dharmadhyaksha: Awards and discography are were sourced in the general references. Curb Safe Charmer (talk)
(section citations now moved to top of the sections) Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 08:15, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Jasraj/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Sainsf (talk · contribs) 20:04, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
I will take this. I see there has been a lot of improvement since the last nom, though there still is a citation needed tag. Posting the rest of my comments soon. Cheers, Sainsf (talk · contribs) 20:04, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay, I got busy. Here are all my comments: Sainsf · (How ya doin'?) 04:45, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

@Sainsf: Thanks for taking the time to do this very thorough review. I will work my way through your recommendations. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 15:05, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
General
Two external links show timeout error [1] [2];  Done [3] shows a potential security risk  Not sure
The website still looks problematic to me, and might be an issue for other readers. Sainsf (t · c) 17:39, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
I am browsing using the latest version of Chrome. I used the built-in developer tools to establish why Chrome displays "not secure" where the padlock would normally be in the address bar. The developer tools console reports "The connection used to load resources from https://narthaki.com used TLS 1.0 or TLS 1.1, which are deprecated and will be disabled in the future. Once disabled, users will be prevented from loading these resources. The server should enable TLS 1.2 or later. See https://www.chromestatus.com/feature/5654791610957824 for more information." Given that natharki.com is purely an informational site, without any online forms, I don't see the security of the site as being a concern. If it didn't use TLS at all (i.e. http rather than https) we wouldn't bat an eyelid. I expect when Chrome at some point starts blocking sites using TLS they'll sort their web server out. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 13:02, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Ok, can't do much about it here. Sainsf (t · c) 15:53, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
No copyvio, dablink or duplink issues. But Hyderabad is linked twice where one is a redirect to the same page  Done
Captions: Jasraj at "Music in the Park" Indira Gandhi Park, Bhubaneswar on 18 December 2016 the link in this caption is erroneous  Done
The Duende concert pic should be put alongside Semi-classical and popular music  Done
Inline citations missing for:
 and received training from him.   Done
a duet with vocalist Bhimsen Joshi for...directed by Vikram Bhatt.   Done
None for Shankar Mahadevan in Teaching  Removed
Sources and citation formatting: Quite a lot of issues.. especially in a living person's biography.
In cite news, use "newspaper" parameter not "publisher"  Done
Ref 6 needs to fix the author name  Done and add page numbers  Not done
What about the page numbers? Sainsf (t · c) 17:39, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
I don't have a copy of The Nocturnal Court: The Life of a Prince of Hyderabad. As I wasn't the contributor of the ref I don't think the WP:BURDEN is with me, but nor do I think two statements the ref is supporting are likely be challenged, given that both are supported by additional references.
Replace website names like "epaperbeta.timesofindia.com" with the actual newspaper name and those like "www.khabar.com" should be like "Khabar"  Done
Ref 10 needs attention  Done
Add the country in refs 14, 33  Done
A lot of newspaper articles lack author information  Done
Ref 18 needs more details  Question:   I have added the date and publisher. Were there other details that you were expecting?
The location is missing, and I just ran a search using the ISBN but it gives no results [4] Sainsf (t · c) 17:39, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
Hmm. I am not sure why that is. But for location, we have that on page 2 of the copy in Google Books so I will list that as Punjab, India. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 13:51, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
In ref 22 The Statesman is not the author  Done
Refs 26, 43 poorly formatted  Done
The Hindu is the actual source in refs 27  Done and 32 (which needs free registration)  I cannot find the article in the Hindustani Times archive Can there be better places to access these sources like Wayback Machine?
Probably. Are we sure the article was indeed published in HT? Then this should not be too much of a problem. Sainsf (t · c) 17:39, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
I paid for access to the article in Pressreader, so I can confirm that page 3 of the htcity lifestyle supplement of Thursday, December 11, 2014 includes the article in question.
Not sure how reliable refs 16,  I am comfortable that this is a reliable source 17,  I am comfortable that this is a reliable source 25 (clearly a blog),  Removed 34 (a competitive exam prep book, not well-researched),  Removed 38 (does not seem like a well-researched, notable book)  Removed
Many discography refs have similar issues. For instance Amazon is not an appropriate source  Question: please can you elaborate? I think I am using the Amazon ref appropriately, per Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#Amazon.
I see, then we can keep the Amazon link. Sainsf (t · c) 17:39, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
Prose and coverage
Some of his students have in turn become notable musicians Would be good to name at least one  Done
Link Mewati gharana in Early life, not later  Done
of Sanand who was deeply comma after Sanand  Done
Madhura has directed documentaries ...Faster Phene Not sure this is relevant for this article.  Removed
initiated into vocal music by his father, Pandit Motiram No need to name him again.  Done Same for his elder brother, who should be mentioned with the full name and if necessary the link only on the first mention.  Question: Please can you check that I've done that correctly
Looks good,  Done Sainsf (t · c) 17:39, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
He would frequently accompany his eldest brother, Pandit Maniram He is quite notable but not mentioned in Early life like the other brother.  Done  Also, would be better to introduce all his siblings in one place in Early life.  Done
with his brother, Pandit Maniram Just the name will do  Done
a vocalist and beenkar.[9] and Gulam Kadar Khan comma not period  Done
Mewat gharana or Mewati?  Fixed
Would be good to add a few words on khayal. Also it and other foreign terms like thumri should be always in italics. I would recommend this for gharana too  Question:   Would you concur with the approach discussed at Wikipedia:Help_desk#MOS:FOREIGNITALIC?
It is good that you asked at the Help Desk, it gave me some clarity too. We should do so, and as I speak Hindi I can help you with this. Most terms are Hindi, but a list would help to check is there are any Urdu terms. You can make the list here itself. Sainsf (t · c) 17:39, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
Curb Safe Charmer, I think this is the only point left. When will we have finished our work on this? Sainsf (t · c) 15:56, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
@Sainsf: I'll tackle this in the next 24 hours. Sorry for the delay. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 09:30, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done see section below
to khayal singing redundant  Removed
A link for raaga?  done, though there are now two links to the same article using different spellings
Oh, then we should keep only one spelling and thus only one link. Sainsf (t · c) 17:39, 21 May 2020 (UTC)  Done
"Music critic" sounds a bit too general, could we specify what type of music?  changed to musicologist
'Vandana Karo,' quote before comma  Done
Would be good to split the long lists into columns  Done
@Curb Safe Charmer: Hi, ten days no updates? We need updates here by a week else this may be failed due to inactivity. Sainsf · (How ya doin'?) 16:18, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

@Sainsf: I've clearly understood the process. I didn't realise that I had a time period in which to fix all the issues after which you'd reassess the article. I presumed I had to submit a new GA nomination and wait for it to come round for review again. If that's not the case then great, I will get back on to it. Thanks for the nudge. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 16:50, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Curb Safe Charmer, right, you have to work on the review comments and regularly update the review page about changes you made or any comments you may have to have the nomination promoted, generally unexplained inactivity for over a week results in a failure. If the comments are too many for the nom to succeed or the nominator wants to work on the comments for a few weeks and renominate instead then also it can be failed. Sainsf · (How ya doin'?) 17:38, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
@Curb Safe Charmer: Another week of inactivity here. I will leave this open for 3 more days as some progress has been made but it is difficult for me to go through every edit and check whether all points have been addressed. I can clearly see an unsourced portion and a maintenance tag at least. Sainsf (t · c) 01:37, 21 May 2020 (UTC)


### List of foreign language terms in the Jasraj article
Continuing the discussion above and at Wikipedia:Help_desk/Archives/2020_May_19#MOS:FOREIGNITALIC, which of these terms should be tagged as Hindi words using the {{lang}} tag?

Mewati gharana  Done
Brahmin - is listed in the Merriam-Webster dictionary
Thakur Sahib - Thakur and Sahib are listed separately in the Merriam-Webster dictionary
tabla - is listed in the Merriam-Webster dictionary
beenkar - not listed in the Merriam-Webster dictionary but veena is
Swami - is listed in the Merriam-Webster dictionary
Agra gharana  Done
khayals  tagged as Hindi
thumri  tagged as Hindi
gharanas  tagged as Hindi
jugalbandi  tagged as Hindi
Jasrangi  Done
moorchhana  tagged as Hindi
raga - is listed in the Merriam-Webster dictionary
Haveli Sangeet  Done
Ahir Bhairav  Done
Ladki Sahyadri Ki  Done
Vaada Tumse Hai Vaada  Done
Padma Shri  Done
Padma Bhushan  Done
Padma Vibhushan  Done
Malkauns  Done
Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 11:43, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Except the proper nouns (Mewati gharana, Agra gharana, Jasrangi, Haveli Sangeet, Ahir Bhairav, Ladki Sahyadri Ki, Vaada Tumse Hai Vaada, Padma Shri, Padma Bhushan, Padma Vibhushan, Malkauns) which need to be just italicized, the others (common nouns) need the lang template as well. Sainsf (t · c) 15:13, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
@Sainsf: and no italics for the words that appear in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, per the rule of thumb given at MOS:FOREIGNITALIC? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 18:29, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
@Curb Safe Charmer: right. Sainsf (t · c) 18:34, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for your efforts. The article is in excellent shape for GA now, and meets all criteria in my opinion. Promoted :) Sainsf (t · c) 18:46, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I propose that the title of the page is changed from "Jasraj" to "Pandit Jasraj" because quoting from Wikipedia policy on honirifics - "There are some exceptions: Where an honorific is so commonly attached to a name that the name is rarely found in English reliable sources without it, it should be included. For example, the honorific may be included for Mother Teresa." 
I think "pandit" comes under that category. 
Also, the change I am asking for is in keeping with the traditions of the Indian Classical Music. It is insulting to call him "Jasraj". 
Swapnil (talk) 14:44, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

As per my comments on my talk page, the feelings of fans are irrelevant to policy. The name "Jasraj" has 1.9 million results on google, 22,000 on google news. Pandit Jasraj has 15,000 on google news and 681k on google for all. His name is Jasraj, Pandit is a title/honorific and not even most well known. In fact it passed as a DYK and GA status under the title Jasraj, which is how it should remain. Praxidicae (talk) 15:03, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

@ShubhanTelang: I saw you've removed some red links from the article. Per WP:REDDEAL, red links should be left in place unless it is implausible that there will ever be an article about that subject. Is that really the case for Pandit Motiram, Pandit Pratap Narayan, Jaywant Singh Waghela and Madhura Shantaram? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 09:29, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
@Curb Safe Charmer: Thanks for telling me about this. I have changed and added the red links to Pandit Motiram, Pandit Pratap Narayan, Jaywant Singh Waghela and Madhura Shantaram.  ShubhanTelang (talk) 12:46, 26 November 2020 (UTC)