# Talk:Henry Fox (sportsman)

"After retiring as a rugby player, he continued to take part as an umpire." The official in Rugby Union is a referee. I see the cited source, a newspaper report, does use "umpired" but perhaps the journalist was more familiar with cricket. I am inclined to alter to referee. Nedrutland (talk) 11:16, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

I initially used referee, but then I was reading some other reports, and he is listed as an umpire, in matches that have a different person listed as a referee. I don't know whether they used the term for what we now call touch judges, or whether it was another role. Hence, I have simply followed the source in its terminology. Harrias talk 11:28, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
After some more research on this, I'm reasonably certain that the "umpire" role was a precursor to touch judges. It doesn't seem to have been exactly the same, but similar, so I have left it as umpire in the article, but piped it to touch judge. Harrias talk 11:58, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the response - very interesting; I had never heard of umpire used in that sense. Nedrutland (talk) 08:25, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Harry Fox (sportsman)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Xender Lourdes (talk · contribs) 09:03, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

I am reviewing this article.  Xender Lourdes (talk) 09:03, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Overall the article is written well, adhering to the Manual of Style. Some suggestions are given below, which may be considered by the nominator.
Infobox
Current:	Died	on or after 30 August 1888 (aged 31)
Suggested:	Died	On or after 30 August 1888 (aged 31)
Lead
Current: ...was an English gentleman who was a sportsman and adventurer.
Question: What is the relevance of the usage of gentleman? Can we also include Fox's business activities into this description?
Suggested: ...was an English sportsman and adventurer.
Suggested ALT1: ...was an English sportsman, businessman, and adventurer.
Current: In 1888, he travelled with William Frederick Donkin to the Caucasus Mountains in the Russian Empire in a bid to be the first people to climb Koshtan-Tau, but the pair, along with their Swiss guides, died in an accident.
Suggested (people used with the preposition with may create a singular-plural confusion to the reader; the word but may convey an unintended slant): In 1888, he travelled with William Frederick Donkin to the Caucasus Mountains in the Russian Empire in a bid to be the first to climb Koshta-Tau. The pair, along with their Swiss guides, died in an accident during the expedition.
Suggested ALT1: In 1888, he and William Frederick Donkin travelled to the Caucasus Mountains in the Russian Empire in a bid to be the first ones to climb Koshta-Tau. The pair, along with their Swiss guides, died in an accident during the expedition.
I will add more points during this week for the main body of the article in case there are any such. Thanks. Xender Lourdes (talk) 10:18, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
@Xender Lourdes: Tweaked both along the lines of your suggestion. Harrias talk 18:52, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Thank you Harrias. I am noting some more suggestions below.Xender Lourdes (talk) 16:43, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
Early life and sporting exploits
Suggestions on structure: While rugby and mountaineering are featured in this section, I presume you may wish to give cricket more importance. In that case, would you be okay with shifting the mountaineering details to the middle of the section and the cricketing stuff to the latter part of the section? Some sentences could further be changed if you think the suggestions sound workable as below.
Current: He was educated at Sherborne School, and was part of the Fox family which owned Fox Brothers, of which he became a partner.
Suggested: He was educated at Sherborne School. His family owned Fox Brothers, of which he later became a partner.
Current: In 1874, he founded Wellington Rugby Football Club, and three years later he was the honorary secretary, treasurer and captain of the Somerset county rugby football team upon its formation.
Suggested: In 1874, he founded the Wellington Rugby Football Club. Three years later, he became the honorary secretary, treasurer and captain of the Somerset county rugby football team upon its formation.
I've tweaked those sentences as suggested, but I think the order is left better as it is. At the moment, it is predominantly chronological, which is generally favoured for biographies, but it also benefits from the mountaineering paragraph leading onto the section about his death. Harrias talk 16:50, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
Sounds good. Xender Lourdes (talk) 17:11, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
Current: He remained in the game after his retirement from playing as an umpire, officiating in his final match in 1887, between Somerset and Yorkshire.
Changed as suggested. Harrias talk 10:44, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Suggested: After retiring from the game, he continued as an umpire. Fox appeared in his final match in 1887, officiating the game between Somerset and Yorkshire.
Current: As well as rugby, he also played cricket for his county, first appearing for Somerset County Cricket Club in 1877 during a match against Wiltshire. He tended to play as a lower-order batsmen for the county, for whom his highest score against county opposition was 42 runs, made against Kent in 1881, prior to Somerset's elevation to first-class status. In June 1882, he was part of the Somerset team that competed in first-class cricket for the first time, losing by an innings and 157 runs to Lancashire; Fox scored no runs in either innings, and did not bowl. He made two further first-class appearances that season, and did not appear for Somerset again, due to business engagements. In all, he scored sixteen runs in first-class matches for Somerset at an average of 2.66. Despite retiring as a player, Fox continued to provide financial support to the cricket club, and remained a vice-president until his death.
Suggested (you might need to shift the run hyperlink to the first occurrence of run. you might also wish to hyperlink first class cricket; finally, the word despite in the last line of the paragraph again might give an unintended slant): Fox also played cricket for his county. He debuted for Somerset County Cricket Club in 1877 during a match against Wiltshire. He tended to play as a lower-order batsmen for the county. His highest score in county cricket was 42 runs, made against Kent in 1881, prior to Somerset's elevation to first-class status. In June 1882, he was part of the Somerset team that competed in first-class cricket for the first time, losing by an innings and 157 runs to Lancashire; Fox scored no runs in either innings, and did not bowl. He made two more first-class appearances that season, and did not appear for Somerset again, due to business engagements. In all, he scored sixteen runs in first-class matches for Somerset at an average of 2.66. After retiring as a player, Fox continued to provide financial support to the cricket club, and remained a vice-president until his death.
I've made some, but not all of the changes suggested in this passage. Harrias talk 10:44, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Current: He received instruction initially from William Woodman Graham and then William Cecil Slingsby.
Question: I can't make out what instruction is being referred to here. Is this coaching of some sort? Some clarity or hyperlink would be helpful (like you gave in umpiring > touch judge).
Changed to training, though it doesn't precisely convey the right idea. Harrias talk 10:44, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Death in the Caucasus Mountains
Question: What is outfitter, a word mentioned in the first paragraph? A hyperlink maybe?
Linked. Harrias talk 10:44, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Suggested (first paragraph): Fox left Wellington in late July of 1888 for the Caucasus Mountains in the Russian Empire, joining up with William Frederick Donkin and Clinton Dent. The three were aiming to become the first climbers to scale Koshtan-Tau, one of the few mountains in the region then yet to be scaled. The three started from Nalchik. Dent was forced to return home due to ill-health, leaving Fox and Donkin to attempt the climb, along with two Swiss guides. Their initial plan was to climb a glacier on the northern slopes of the mountain, and then make their final ascent on the western side. However, a rock wall on the western slopes prevented this, and they changed their plans to attack the mountain from the east. They planned to meet up with their outfitter to the south-east of the mountain, but after they missed that meeting, a message was sent back to Dent reporting the climbers as missing. The Times reported on 6 October 1888 that Donkin and Fox, along with their guides, had suffered a mountaineering accident that had led "to the almost certain loss of four lives".
Again, I've made most, but not all of the suggested changes here. Harrias talk 10:44, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
I've made some minor changes in the last two paragraphs of the article. Feel free to change them to how you may like it.
Referencing
William Frederick Donkin appears as a red link twice in the article. You may want to cut out the second red link.
Removed the red link from the lead. Harrias talk 10:44, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
I can't find references for "He was born and lived at Tone Dale House." I saw this link but could not find the born detail.
This was added by what I assume was a family member, after my edits. I've removed it. Harrias talk 10:44, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
This link also mentions the year in which Fox became a partner. Would you wish to mention that?
The only year I see listed for a Henry Fox there is 1822, but that was before this Henry Fox was born? Harrias talk 10:44, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
GA Criteria
In the end, on the GA criteria, the references have been cited in a standard format. As said earlier the article is well-written. There's no original research and the article qualifies on verifiability (except for the point mentioned above). It is acceptably broad in its coverage. It is also more or less written with a neutral point of view and seems stable. The image usage is also quite helpful.
This is it! Do tell me when you're through with this and we'll have the GA going. Thank you for this. Xender Lourdes (talk) 17:59, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

@Xender Lourdes: Been through each point, though in some cases I haven't adopted the entire suggestion. Harrias talk 10:44, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar):  b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): 

It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):  d (copyvio and plagiarism): 

It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects):  b (focused): 

It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias: 

It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.: 

It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions): 

Overall:
Pass/Fail: 

Thank you Harrias for this Good article. Reviewing this was a learning experience for me too. Xender Lourdes (talk) 05:48, 8 February 2016 (UTC)