# Talk:Characters of the Final Fantasy XIII series

for example one of each character and 2 for the characters that appear in both games.(1 for each game.)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.208.59.120 (talk) 18:14, 11 February 2012 (UTC) 

This is an issue I have been in a discussion with here, but I feel a decision must be taken. Taking into account my former rash action, which shall not influence my judgement here, I want to propose a move or renaming of the article. Changing it from Characters of Final Fantasy XIII, XIII-2 and Lightning Returns to something like Characters of the Lightning Saga (while links on the Final Fantasy Character template can still use the simple Final Fantasy XIII name to avoid confusion).
The reason for this is quite plain: since the release of Final Fantasy XIII, there have been two sequels announced: one is already out (Final Fantasy XIII-2) and one shall release this autumn. Therefore, the old title was misleading. It was still treating the characters as if they were from one game, and were not featured or come from three different one released over five years. The reason I pick on Lightning Saga for the new title is because, since the announcement, Square Enix, or rather the game's creators Toriyama and Kisate, have been referring to the trilogy of games as the Lightning Saga, and these games have been classified as such in the Fabula Nova Crystallis template. Here are a few references that support the "Lightning Saga" title: 1, 2 3, 4. Readers will note that all the articles use the term "Lightning Saga" in their text.
I feel reluctant to do the move myself (given that the current, slightly messy title is my doing because of a hasty and ill-considered move), but once a consensus is reached as to the exact title under which this article should be known, the article can easily be moved by another, more experienced editor. But I do feel that, before we get lumbered with new characters Lightning Returns is sure to introduce, we should make it clear that there is more than one game involved here. Comments would be most appreciated. --ProtoDrake (talk) 21:00, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

I would support the move, provided there is a strong ring of redirects to get there. It sounds like a reliably sources and common name, or will be, for the three games.Judgesurreal777 (talk) 11:25, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Support, obviously. Given the fact that the proposed title sounds like a more common name, I think that it should be moved. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:02, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Support as well; I think that readers might recognize "of the Final Fantasy XIII series" more easily, even if it's wrong, but hey, that's what redirects are for. --PresN 01:42, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
I was unaware of this discussion. I support it. Mainly because i pushed for it. xiii series does sound recognizeable, however could cause confusion once Versus XIII comes out.Lucia Black (talk) 10:38, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Support Either ProtoDrake's or PresN's title suggestion, as long as one redirects to the other, I think either would be good. Sergecross73 msg me  12:35, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Since there seemed to be enough of a consensus, I have done the move. I have done it after much consideration, and reworked the article accordingly. Now new characters can be added when needed. And if we need to do redirects and create links that don't seem strange to people not in the know, I think that can be done easily enough. This is a start. --ProtoDrake (talk) 20:11, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment I disagree with the title. When I saw it listed for GAN, I was at first confused by what it was referring, as I wasn't sure if it was referring to the FF13 trilogy or not. I think a plausible solution would be to make it Characters of the Lightning Saga (Final Fantasy XIII). This wouldn't be confusing. FFversusXIII shouldn't be an issue with this title as it's not in the Lightning Saga. --JDC808 ♫ 06:02, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
That title makes no sense.Lucia Black (talk) 06:07, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
It may sound alright at first, but it looks just as unwieldy as Characters of Final Fantasy XIII, XIII-2 and Lightning Returns. Also, I've explained about the title in the lead section. I took great pains over it, and the three games are being called the Lightning Saga by their development team. It would ahve been simpler if they'd called it the XIII Trilogy, but they didn't. I hope the title doesn't exclude it from being a GA? --ProtoDrake (talk) 07:44, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
This title surprised me too. Has it been used by an official Square Enix source as a title (in CAPS or italics) or with a logo? The source that was used to justify the current article name (do we have other sources?) is a transcript of a quote by Toriyama via an English translator. IGN chose to render it as 'Lightning Saga'. The uppercase S is likely an editorial choice by IGN since the translator was only speaking orally. They could have rendered it as 'Lightning saga'. Moreover, these inverted commas seem to suggest that it's something different than a bona fide title like Final Fantasy XIII, which IGN renders without inverted commas. Jonathan Hardin' (talk) 17:51, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
Alright. I get the picture. It may be odd for a specialist or someone who wants to be picky, but to call the "XIII trilogy" (since the thing has turned into a trilogy of games) or "series" makes it easier for laymen and will make redirects and links a lot less confusing. --ProtoDrake (talk) 19:12, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
As I mentioned in the discussion at WT:SE, I prefer "Characters of the Final Fantasy XIII series". It seems like the title that requires the fewest logical leaps and is still obvious to a random reader who is not familiar with the backstory. "Trilogy" might be overly specific and locks out certain things we might want to include in the future. It also mirrors "Characters of the Final Fantasy VII series" which is nice. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:28, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. However that's what redirects are for sometimes. Its not officially considered a trilogy so it was a bad idea to move simply because one editor disagreed.Lucia Black (talk) 19:36, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Three actually. And it's too late. I tried to move it again, and the redirects are getting in the way. I've made a mess. I admit it. Please can someone else help with this? Get an administrator or something. --ProtoDrake (talk) 19:39, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
Just a note, I may vanish for a while. Given my checkered moving track record and my relation to this article, I don't want to get too much into this anymore. I've made a mistake with the title three times already, and don't want to incur anyone's wrath. Bye for now. --ProtoDrake (talk) 20:20, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
Moved to 'Characters of the Final Fantasy XIII series' over the redirect. Don't worry about it, ProtoDrake, it only takes a second to do. I can move it around all day if need be. --PresN 22:10, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Mistakes happen. Just remember that some form of consensus is always needed for moving an article to a new name. Being bold is good though.Lucia Black (talk) 22:17, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
I'd renominate, the debate over what to call it will probably be over long before it actually gets reviewed by anyone. Also, remember PresN is right, moving the article around is no issue, it's all part of it growing and developing, don't treat it like you did something wrong or disastrous, it's not even really an issue. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 02:47, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
It's renominated. Thank goodness for this. It's looking better, and the headache I had because of this has vanished.--ProtoDrake (talk) 07:19, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I am using the Ultimanias as references (Specifically the XIII Scenario and Omega books and the XIII-2 Omega) to help put in details about the characters and background details. They look fine to me, but others might want a specific page number(s). Can anyone provide me with translations of some sort, or at least something that shows what info is on which page? Even if it's not needed now, it may well be later in either another article or this one. --ProtoDrake (talk) 13:08, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I have the XIII Scenario book but I can't read Japanese so I don't know where to look or what scan to post. :/ Jonathan Hardin' (talk) 13:41, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I was looking at all the stuff for the XIII games, and it came to me. Though they are or will be mentioned prodigiously in the games, and play a crucial part in their mythos and an active role in the story, Etro and Bhunivelze aren't here. Admittedly Bhunivelze should be saved until Lightning Returns is released and there is more to say about him, but Etro has had an enormous amount said about her. I don't think she's the only Final Fantasy character who does not have a voice actor or asserts herself as a powerful presence rather than as a physical being. Bhunivelze is likely to be similar, although he might get a voice actor. I know the gods appear in the whole Fabula Nova Crystallis mythos, but I think we could work round that. It seems a little silly to keep mentioning or referring to them over and over and saying nothing much about them. Note that this is a long-term discussion. We need to get all facts and details straightened out before I or anyone else puts anything in. (Oh, and an afterthought. Maybe the fal'Cie could be included, in the same vein as the Occuria from XII. Just a thought, given that they don't seem to be referenced in the other FNC games by that name.) --ProtoDrake (talk) 23:47, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Characters of the Final Fantasy XIII series/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: David Fuchs (talk · contribs) 14:09, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
{{doing}} Ping me if there isn't something here in a day or two. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 14:09, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

There's a discussion here you should be aware of: Wikipedia_talk:GAN#Characters_of_the_Final_Fantasy_XIII_series, part of a much larger thread. You might let that play out before going too far into the review, just in case this article turns out to be ineligible. -- Khazar2 (talk) 14:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. I've taken a look, but at present I think I can proceed with the review. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 16:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
Images:
File:Snow Villiers concept art.jpg - no reason for this to be in there, since it's close to his game appearance and there's not any critical commentary that can't be fulfilled by the game promo art.
File:Main characters of Final Fantasy XIII-2.jpg - I get you're somewhat limited here, but probably assembling a lower-rez montage of the characters would be more effective in terms of identification than this one, which as it stands doesn't have enough utility for me to say it passes WP:NFCC. 
References:
Most of the reference works look good. Only ones I was not familiar with: Gematsu, Andriasang (is giving me errors trying to access), and Just Push Start. Any details on how these are reliable?
References need a complete recheck, as doing some spot checks revealed issues: for instance, ...and has light blonde hair under a black bandana. is sourced to [1] which contains no text relating to that character; Some of the in-game citations don't adequately source the prose ( Eight days before the game's start, they inadvertently caused Sazh's son Dajh to be branded a Sanctum l'Cie and began the Purge. and Ref 51.
Sources for voice actor credits throughout?
Prose:
Some minor grammar issues, but nothing too major.
A bigger issue is that a lot of this article is dense and impenetrable for someone like me who has never played a Final Fantasy game, let alone this one. The solution lies in two parts simplifying the plot summaries to one part explaining terms when they come up, methinks. It's an issue in the lead paragraph itself, which contains plot details not contained anywhere else in the article (WP:LEAD issue), and also starts hitting readers with a lot of proper nouns really quickly. I have no idea what a  l'Cie is in relation to the fal'Cie, I have no idea why there are resistance groups in this world, 500 AF gets suddenly dropped with no real intro, etc. Cutting down the plot-loading in the lead and making an opening "setting" section would probably help set this up in a more digestible manner, but the other bit is just cutting down the massive amounts of info for some of these characters. The less I have to read the more likely I am to understsand the basics.
On a related note, what's with everyone's height measurements? It's irrelevant to the plot and just takes up space.
Something I'm less sure on is the tense. Obviously game events should be present tense, and while I suppose it works to describe stuff before the games as occurring in past, I think as the article is currently written it's a form of whiplash to keep going from past to present descriptions throughout. I'd structure to all be in present tense.
--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 12:49, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Right, here we go with the reply.
Images:
Both removed. We'll likely have to wait for LR to come out before we get a shot of the majority of the cast.
References:
Picked up a few of them, I think. Some help pinpointing them would be appreciated.
Gematsu is a good place to find accurate translations of articles from Famitsu, Dengkei, Shonen Jump and alike, and if often provides a link to the original article so you can cross-check it. No-one's complained, and users seem to be using it happily enough. It's been used to good effect in Final Fantasy XV. Andriasang is like that now it's not being posted on regularly, it comes and goes, but most of the time it is there and working. Try again in a couple of days. Just Push Start has been removed. That info can be put in at a later date when there's a better reference, since I'm not very sure about its reliability either.
Reworked and reworded, plus deleted unneeded info.
Most character articles I've read and edited don't seem to bother with that (including Characters of Final Fantasy XII, Characters of Final Fantasy X and X-2), so I didn't think it would matter. And I doubt we could find references for them anyway. Certainly a lot of voice actor info, and indeed a lot of info from interviews and such, is mostly only to be found on fan sites that are inadmissible to this site as references.
Prose:
Done a lot of major and minor trimming, and put up a "Setting" section. There is still room for improvement, and I have set up links to articles which have/will have fuller details. Don't want this article or section to get too big and involved. Also, we must bear in mind that this mythos is shared by two other games, since the XIII games are part of a subseries themselves (which I have mentioned in the article to clarify). Lead also reworked to put in as little in-universe stuff as possible.
Gotten rid of.
Fixed most of it, I think. Maybe you could point out any specific instances I miss or missed.
Well, that's a first pass from me. Still plenty of room for improvement if/where needed. --ProtoDrake (talk) 16:05, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
I disagree completely on this "setting" section. This is an article about the characters and setting is more like trying the easy way out to not simplify rather than fixing the issues. This article should only cover info related to the characters, not the world they set in. A big NO to adding a setting section.Lucia Black (talk) 19:39, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
To be honest, and all things considered, I didn't want it either. I've done what's needed. Thinking about it, many other Character articles exist without such sections. --ProtoDrake (talk) 19:43, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
That may be true, but the article may require some explanation of context to make it understandable to the general reader, as long as we add that, it probably doesn't matter what we call it. ProtoDrake seems to know these stories well and should be able to perhaps run through the story's points in brief, otherwise you'll have to add context throughout with may be more work. Keep going, GA is coming! Judgesurreal777 (talk) 20:28, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
well this article is a spin off of Xiii, Xiii-2 and Lightning returns, so any more info on plot details can be found there. This article is to compliment those ones. .Lucia Black (talk)
True, but the fact is that if people have to link away to another article to understand the one they're reading... they'll likely never return. That's the reality of internet usability. This article should be able to give readers the bare minimum necessary to comprehend the topic; then if people want more info of course the main game articles are going to be there. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 22:38, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Oh dear, something tells me this article's going to fail just because we can't agree. --ProtoDrake (talk) 22:49, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Theres no issue, just wohltemperierte is clarifying. Regardless, the "setting section" does little to clarify between characters section. If its too difficult to understand, it may go into too detail or doesnt clarify properly. But the setting section isnt an issue. People should be able to comprehend the basics of these characters and what their doing throughout the series.Lucia Black (talk) 23:06, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Right, I've done something. I've segued the needed introductory information (with rescued references) into the lead, which still looks alright. Now people who need the info can read it in the lead, while those who know it already can just skip over it. If needs be, this can be deleted as well, but I'm more comfortable with this than with the full-blown setting section. --ProtoDrake (talk) 23:14, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
It doesnt look too bad. This is more acceptable.Lucia Black (talk) 23:34, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
It's looking much better, but still some issues:
humans gifted with magical powers and a Focus, a task to complete within a given time. Unsure whether this means they were turned into humans with magical powers and a Focus, or the intention is they were turned into humans with magical powers and given a task called a Focus to complete.
Terms not explained on their first mentions: Eidolon, PSICOM, Bodhum, " Flan-collective fiend", Ragnarok, what the hell "her l'Cie brand activates" means. This is through the main characters section. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 14:52, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
I think I've addressed them. The "Focus" bit now reads like it's humans who were given magical powers and a Focus, and all the unexplained terms have been sorted out (briefly explain PSICOM, Eidolons and Ragnarok, deleted Bodhum, replaced "Flan-collective fiend", and altered the "l'Cie brand activates" sentence to leave out the piece about the brand). Anything else? (on a side note, Andraisang is working fine for me now.) --ProtoDrake (talk) 15:20, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Update: Done some more tidying work, addressed unfamiliar terms without explanation, found some minor grammar faults (now corrected), added references and a few other fixes. --ProtoDrake (talk) 09:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Ok, I think the article is in good enough shape for GA. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 20:06, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

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