# Talk:Kathleen Freeman (classicist)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kathleen Freeman (classicist)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Tim riley (talk · contribs) 16:07, 12 April 2022 (UTC)


### Initial comments
After a first read-through I think this is approaching GA standard. It is short – 857 words – but we don't judge GAs by volume, and if, as it appears, this is all there is to say about Freeman then so be it. In any case, comprehensiveness is required at FAC but is not obligatory at GAN. 
Most of the comments below are merely suggestions:  they don't affect the promotability of the article, but I hope you will find some or all useful:

Lead
"was a gay British classical scholar" – unless someone's sexuality is relevant to his or her notability (e.g. a gay activist) there is no reason to mention it in the lead. See MOS:CONTEXTBIO.
Early life and education
"Charles H Freeman" – I see from Ancestry.co.uk that he was Charles Henry Freeman, but if you prefer to give just his middle initial it needs a full stop (Wikipedia having yet to make it into the late 20th century so far as punctuation is concerned).
"and Catherine Mawdesley" – this reads as though the parents were not married, but Catherine Freeman is recorded in the 1911 census as being married to Charles Freeman for 14 years, and if my arithmetic is correct (not a foregone conclusion) that means they were married at the time of their daughter's birth.
[Afterthought: I think Freeman's mother may have been Catharine, rather than Catherine. She is the former in the 1911 census return, in her husband's writing, and one assumes he knew. Their marriage certificate has the vowel overwritten, presumably as a correction, but whether to alter an "a" to an "e" or vice versa I can't make out. Can you check your sources?]
"become a Classicist of note" – no reason, surely, to capitalise classicist? You don't in the title of the article.
Academic Career
Lower-case "career" in header, please (MoS)
"delivered lectures on Greece to the Ministry of Information" – the preposition seems strange: one might expect "at" or "for", but I am quite prepared to be told I'm wrong.
"The Western Mail" – should be italicised.
"acted as Supervisor of Studies … becoming the chairman in 1952" – unclear why one post is capitalised and the other isn't.
Picture caption – missing possessive apostrophe. (And one picture says "Market Road" and the other "Market Street".)
Personal life
"lived with her lifelong partner" – "lifelong" seems odd here if they weren't partners until Freeman was in her late twenties.
Bibliography
It looks strange to give oclc numbers for most of Freeman's books but omit them from five of them.
Authors' and publishers' initials: best to be consistent about spacing. We have W.W. Norton but C. H. Quennell
It looks as though a line-break and bullet are missing before 1952 Clues to Christabel
References
Page numbers: best to be consistent: the usual form is p. 531 as in ref 11, but there are several spaceless and dotless p344s and p343s. Citations to multiple pages should be, e.g.  pp. 343–344
Carty's 2014 book is not as startlingly devoid of capital letters in its title as you represent: see here.
Over to you. Happy to discuss any point if you wish. Tim riley talk 16:07, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Tim riley, this is very useful! Srsval (talk) 09:32, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
I think I've addressed all of your points Tim riley and the article is much tidier as a result Srsval (talk) 10:09, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
I think you have, too, so:


### Overall summary
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose quality: 

B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists: 

Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. References to sources: 
Well referenced.
B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary: 
Well referenced.
C. No original research: 

Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects: 

B. Focused: 

Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias: 

Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc: 

Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales: 
Well illustrated.
B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions: 
Well illustrated.
Overall:
Pass or Fail: 

I enjoyed this article, which was a pleasure to review. I hadn't heard of Freeman or − more to the point for a devotee of old-school detective fiction − Mary Fitt, and will seek out her work. Moreover, I enjoyed reading the wonderful Edith Hall's "Invisible Classicist" broadside, so thank you! Tim riley talk 12:13, 13 April 2022 (UTC)
That's great news Tim riley! Thanks so much for your work reviewing this article. Srsval (talk) 15:29, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Kathleen Freeman - Obituary.jpg
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:36, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

I would incline to remove the phrase "Freeman was gay" or now "According to classicist Edith Hall, Freeman was gay". My concern is that it is referenced to Edith Hall's "How to Conceal a Female Scholar", which only says "She lived with her girl-friend". The second reference by Eleanor Irwin says "She lived from some time ... with her friend Dr Liliane". The references describe Freeman's relationship without labelling it, so it feels like WP:SYNTHESIS for Wikipedia to choose a label. I found a conversation with Edith Hall where she says "There are also quite a large number of what we’re pretty sure are women who loved other women, though how much they knew they did or not is up for debate" and mentions Freeman as an example. It is not an area of Wikipedia I am expert in, so any comments are welcome. TSventon (talk) 22:54, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

TSventon, Thanks for the comment, I've removed "gay", and added in the quote about Clopet being Freeman's "girl-friend" - @Another Believer: who might have some advice with their Wiki Loves Pride hat on? Lajmmoore (talk) 09:04, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Lajmmoore, I still don't think we need the extra sentence, I think "she lived with her long-term partner" or "she lived with her girlfriend" are based on what the sources say and we shouldn't go beyond that. We don't need to attribute the statement to Edith Hall as she isn't saying anything controversial. I will be interested to hear any more knowledgeable opinion. TSventon (talk) 10:35, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
TSventon Shall we ask at WP:Wiki Loves Pride, or another project, maybe WP:Biography too? I agree another set of eyes, who are more experienced in writing about LGBTQ folks, would be beneficial to the personal section. I'm happy to post in the project pages? Lajmmoore (talk) 11:09, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Lajmmoore, thank you, I am happy toaccept your offer to post in the project pages. TSventon (talk) 12:04, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Feel free to seek editor assistance over Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies. The talk page is pretty active. ---Another Believer (Talk) 12:43, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
I have posted notices at WP:Biography and Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies. TSventon (talk) 14:28, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
@TSventon and Lajmmoore: Not officially part of Wiki Loves Pride, but I think I'd have a useful perspective—and ezlev generally has keen insights in this area. The key, to me, is striking a balance between WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS/WP:OR and accounting for the widely acknowledged historical trend of LGBT erasure. I think that TSventon's suggestion of "she lived with her girlfriend" is best; it's about as close as we can get with the sourcing we have. Inline attribution/quoting to Hall also works, but to me, it's not entirely necessary. We can't come out and say she was gay, but saying she lived with her girlfriend is verifiably true and lets the readers interpret the sourcing for themselves. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 01:00, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
@Theleekycauldron and Lajmmoore: I have implemented my suggestion following TLC's response. TSventon (talk) 09:32, 20 May 2022 (UTC)