# Talk:Flag of Azerbaijan

Due to previous discussions in reliable sources notice board , UNPO is not a reliable source . An unknown group may not be mentioned in a article about the flag of a sovereign nation . who knows does that group have that flag or that is a personal opinion of one person presented in UNPO organization as a nation ?! Besides that , if the site of UNPO is reliable , then the flag of Talysh-Mughan Autonomous Republic should also be mentioned in this article , because it is a member of UNPO and that flag is under influence of AZ.republic flag with an eight-pointed star just as the flag of republic .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 07:20, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Flag Talysh-Mugan Autonomous Republic is not like the flag of Azerbaijan. Flag Talysh-Mugan Autonomous Republic - a flag of self-proclaimed autonomy. This is not the same thing. How can you compare the flag of the autonomy  and the flag of the organization. Read the source website of the nations and peoples that have no representation Талех (talk) 07:42, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
The section of "influece" was carefully sources and written. So next time you want to remove something, please discuss it first. Indeed the flag used by SANAM does not represent an independent or sovereign state. Nevertheless they use it and its influenced by the national flag of Azerbaijan. The flag is also used in the website of SANAM, see here. So thats direct evidence and this information should be mentioned in the article. The Talysh-Mughan Autonomous Republic does not apply because there are many flags with eight stars and its not influenced by the Azerbaijani flag. Or else we can add the entire list of star and crescent flags. Neftchi (talk) 07:49, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
In brief :If UNPO is an reliable source then add the Talysh-Mughan flag to this article . If it is not reliable then delete the SANAM from it . Looking for response ....--Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:01, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
And why not let the so called flag of so called SANAM remain in the list of NNPO flags?--Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:08, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
This is not a discussion on seperatist movements. Its about the flag of Azerbaijan. So I would appriciate it if you did not blow this issue out of proportion and stick to the subject of this article. I told you before the flag of Talysh-Mughan Autonomous Republic is not at all similar to the Azerbaijani flag. For more information see the star and crescent flags article. Neftchi (talk) 10:33, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
It is about the reliability of sources and notability in adding the section to the main article . Your answer to unreliability of UNPO was that the site of SANAM has used it and to notability was that it is influenced by republic flag . If UNPO is unreliable , and you admit it , then why you insist to mention it's point of views such as "mass rallies" and like so ? Why do you insist to give WEIGHT to an statement in an unreliable source? If we omit UNPO , where is the source referencing that section and what will prove the GAMOH or SANAM or SHAZAM are under influence of the flag of republic ? What's your idea about the notability of mentioning a groups flag alongside the flag of a sovereign nation ? Is the flag of republic in the class of an unknown group?!--Alborz Fallah (talk) 11:48, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
Look I didnt mention the part about mass rallies. That was a different user. So please dont confuse things. If you think UNPO is not reliable, thats fine and I can understand that, but you know very well the group SANAM uses this version of the flag. You can see it on their website, I posted it above. So that must be reflected in the article because its similar to the Azerbaijani flag. And look I didnt decide this, so dont blame me. If you must know Im from Iranian Azerbaijani heritage (from Hashtpar). So Im not a Pan-Turkist or whatsoever and I would appreciate it if you would not judge me so. All I say is we cannot ignore this different version of flag. It is used by SANAM and sometimes by Azerbaijani protesters in Iran aswell. For example look at these pictures at Babek castle: [1], [2] and there are much more. So this should at least be reflected in the article. Neftchi (talk) 12:14, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
I think if I insist in deleting a section of an article about Az.republic's flag , that would be an insult to the neighbor nation , so I do my best to discuss it to you .It would be the best if you yourselves remove it and not us . What's the importance of SANAM using a version of this flag ? Doesn't many groups in many places use self-made flags ? Besides that , please show an article in Wikipedia about the flag of a sovereign nation that have a section about the groups whose flag are alike that nation ! Don't you think it is kind of diminishing for that flag ? --Alborz Fallah (talk) 12:39, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
An example would be the flag of Tibet. Anyway I posted you pictures that show that the flag of SANAM is sometimes used in Iran. So its not just SANAM and I didnt make all these things up. Neftchi (talk) 15:11, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
Dear Neftchi , Tibet is not a sovereign nation : it is a part of China! Can you please show other article? And about that pictures , I think counting them as important is giving WEIGHT . Whats the source that shows it is important ? UNPO ?--Alborz Fallah (talk) 15:31, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
Yes exactly, Tibet is not a sovereign nation and yet they have their own flag. You asked me to show you a non-sovereign flag. Thats why I showed flag of Tibet. Look I want to keep this discussion friendly and with good faith. I posted you the pictures because they show the flag is used sometimes in Iran by Azerbaijani activists and not just exclusively by SANAM. I have no other intentions against Iran but we should not ignore this flag, it exists and its similar to the Azerbaijani flag. Thats all the 3 sentences say about it. Neftchi (talk) 21:21, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
I didn't ask you to show a non-sovereign flag ! I asked for an article in Wikipedia about a sovereign nation's flag that have a section about a group using a flag like them . I'm arguing your action about the flag of Az.Republic is an unknown one in Wikipedia . --Alborz Fallah (talk) 04:19, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
The Kurds are a divided people, as Tajiks and Azeris. Most of the Kurds are using flag. Here's an article about this flag. There is a flag of the Assyrians. Both peoples have no state. Among these nations have different national movements that use these flags. Талех (talk) 08:03, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Again : I'm asking for an article in Wikipedia about a sovereign nation's flag ( I mean one of this page :Gallery of sovereign-state flags ) ; that in the article there is a section about groups using a flag that is alike the sovereign nation's flag .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:15, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
And again to make it more clear :Look at Wikipedia article about the Flag of Turkey . Although Flag of Northern Cyprus is much much more recognized and famous than a group's flag , the Wikipedia article about Turkey's flag does not have any material about Northern Cyprus . I think the article about a sovereign nation's flag is so important that it may not contain controversial or unimportant sections . --Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:33, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Northern Cyprus - self-proclaimed republic of Cyprus and its flag is not similar to the flag of Turkey. In the article about the flag of Greece contains a list of similar flags. Талех (talk) 08:48, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Yeah the flags of Turkey and Northern Cyprus are not at all similar. Again a crescent and star alone does not make it similar, it goes for the flag of Talysh-Mughan Autonomy aswell. Also the American flag also has a similar section, see here. Neftchi (talk) 09:08, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Section about similar flags of Greece and USA are about the countries and not about groups .If groups were supposed to have a section in the flag articles , then all articles may have such sections because many groups inside and outside a country use the nation's flag as a base for their group : I mean can you just imagine how many groups use USA , France and other famous flags as a base for their organizations? Is it supposed to include all of them ?!--Alborz Fallah (talk) 09:18, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
There are groups that do not use the flag of their country. Take the Iranian Arab, Turkomans and Baluchis. Flags Iranian Arabs, Turkomans and Baluchis are not similar to the flags of Iran, İraq and Pakistan and they may not be in articles about the flags of Iran, İraq and Pakistan. If the flags of these groups were similar to the flags of those states in which they live, the more likely these flags were in articles about the flags of sovereign states. Талех (talk) 09:50, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
I think I did not made myself clear . I didn't said groups use their countries flag .I said there are many political and non-political groups that their flag resembles to famous flags of the nations without doubt , then where are the section in articles about these famous flags ?! [Another]  example : look at this one :[3] or that one : [4] ; does the Wikipedia article about the flag of USA or UK have a section about this flags ? --Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:08, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
If no, then you write a chapter about it in articles about the flags of the United States and Britain.  Талех (talk) 10:31, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
I can't do that , because other editors will omit it because it is neither notable nor Verifiable and it is against the importance  of that subject have in real life .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:57, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Alborz, we removed the flag but kept a sentence on its existence in the section. I think this is a fair compromise? Neftchi (talk) 14:57, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Well , I think according to previous discussions in reliable sources notice board , UNPO can't be used as a source . Do you have other sources ? At least the new source's tone may be more acceptable (or less irritating).--Alborz Fallah (talk) 13:48, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm curious. Iranian members, including the Azeris from Iran, so much written about the flag, and nothing in the article are not complementary. Alborz Fallah I understand your love for Iran, but do not make the difference between northern and southern Azerbaijanis. In Southern Azerbaijan this flag is used. Shows quite a good source. Sorry if offended. Талех (talk) 16:35, 1 June 2011 (UTC)


### Survey
According to user Талех , it would be normal to add sections about groups with similar flags to the national flags article . As a survey I suggest to add a section about African American group and their flag [5] to the article Flag of the United States and see how much time it would remains.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 18:54, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

I think we need to expand the Soviet Azerbaijan flag part. As the chronology gallery shows there were many small adaptations and changes. This should be reflected in the article. Neftchi (talk) 21:30, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

At least have some construction details for the last Azeri SSR flag. I can add those later. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 05:52, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
I expanded the Soviet Azerbaijan section. Included all the flags and related articles in the constitution. I found the related constitutions here. Neftchi (talk) 15:57, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
We will need a construction sheet and explanation of the final Azerbaijan SSR flag. Neftchi (talk) 16:10, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Im not sure but for a FAC a gallery is not allowed. However the "chronology of flags" gallery section is useful and makes things clear. Soviet Azerbaijan had 8 different flags, a chronology-gallery makes the transition easier to understand. What do you guys think? Neftchi (talk) 16:29, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
I think having the last (and most memorable flag) for the AzSSR would be the best in the terms of images. We can link to the historic flags by an article link later. I don't think we would need an actual image of the construction sheet, just text will be fine since the focus is on the current national flag. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 18:44, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
There is an article Flag of Nakhchivan.  What do you think whether it should be reported in this article? In addition, there are flags Azerbaijani Avars, Tsakhurs and Talyshs. Flags of the peoples of Azerbaijan are not like state  flag of Azerbaijan, but these peoples are among the 14 indigenous peoples of Azerbaijan, it may be their somewhere to mention? Талех (talk) 18:58, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
The flag of Nakhchivan is the same as the ADR flag. In fact Nakhchivan used the ADR flag even before the rest of Azerbaijan. And this is already mentioned in the already in section "regaining independence". As for the minorities flags, its an interesting idea but this article is about the national flag of Azerbaijan. So we should stick to the subject. Neftchi (talk) 07:53, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
I think we should properly write and/or correct the sources if this article is to be nominated for FAC. Unfortunately Im not really good at that, Scout could you perhaps take a look at this? Neftchi (talk) 07:57, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
This site has a good construction sheet of the Azerbaijani flag. Neftchi (talk) 09:18, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
I will look at that (on a note, I do know the owner of vexilla-mundi, but with some of the FACs I faced before, a site like that would not work in the terms of sourcing). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 16:37, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Oke I understand, if the current contruction sheet is sufficient than its oke. Neftchi (talk) 17:15, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
I requested a peer review on FAC standards here. Neftchi (talk) 17:02, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
We can link to that site as an external link, but as for FAC standards, we are not even close. I do not think this is even GA ready. I think the Soviet section is way too long, missing a longer link to the regulations of the flag, need to add some governmental flags (military, presidential), and how the flag motif is used in other parts (such as state decorations). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 17:19, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
This source has pretty much every related flag. Is flagspot considered a reliable source? Only problem is almost none excist in Wikipedia.  Neftchi (talk) 17:43, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
I contribute to Flags of the World and I used to edit there. It is only as reliable as the sources provided in the article text. From what I have seen, I do not like our pages on Azerbaijan. http://flagspot.net/flags/az-pres.html doesn't give the main presidential standard. I would use that as an external link. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 16:29, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
I was wondering, is it really necessary to add all the official flags in Azerbaijan? I mean this page is about the national flag of Azerbaijan not all flags of Azerbaijan? Neftchi (talk) 18:34, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Not all; I would say add Army, Navy, Air Force and maybe Border Guards in a Military flags section, 2 in the presidential section, and the rest can be added to the list of Azeri flags and just a brief mention. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:52, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
See Flag_of_Japan#Related_flags as an example. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:54, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
Well we know the flags of the army, navy and air force. But we shouldnt add the border guards, its a sub-group of the military just as the national guard, interior guard, coast guard, etc. Anyway my photoshop skills are limited and I cannot re-make the flags in good quality. Can you do it or know anyone who can get it done? Neftchi (talk) 20:10, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
The Navy flag was already done by me; I can see about the others. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:23, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
After searching on the photo data base I found the other flags: Air Forces,Land Forces and the Presidential Flag. I know its not the solution, but I think its a good way to start? Neftchi (talk) 08:53, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm going to redraw them. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 17:19, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
I noticed your work so far on the Presidential and Supreme Commander flag. Very nice work, looking forward to the other flags. Neftchi (talk) 22:55, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
I can see what can be done, but if we cannot have images made, we can use the images as published in the laws. Those will be PD. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 05:18, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
I made some minor adjustments based on the feedback from the peer review. I couldnt figure out two points:
It would be better to follow the flag's evolution stages if you showed them within the sections that are describing them, instead of all being clumped up in one section.
The section on the independence needs a desperate prose overhaul
Scout could you take a shot at this? Neftchi (talk) 21:30, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
For the first point, get rid of the gallery. The second point is something I need to edit since the English is a little bit odd. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:53, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
I see you made the adjustments, excellent work. I know I couldnt have done it, for my lack of advanced English. Neftchi (talk) 16:41, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

http://www.yeniazerbaycan.com/news/10275.html should be found and used. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 07:19, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Flag of Azerbaijan/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: The Most Comfortable Chair (talk · contribs) 04:22, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
Hello. I will start the review soon. — The Most Comfortable Chair 04:22, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

@The Most Comfortable Chair: Hi! It's been a week since your message, are you still up for reviewing? — Golden call me maybe? 16:44, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
I became preoccupied with something unexpected this past week. I will have the review by next Sunday, at most. Thank you for your patience. — The Most Comfortable Chair 11:17, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
@The Most Comfortable Chair: Hello? — Golden call me maybe? 19:04, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
I am one thirds through reviewing right now but I haven't ran spotchecks yet — should be done by tonight. — The Most Comfortable Chair 19:10, 25 June 2022 (UTC)


### History
#### Azerbaijan Democratic Republic (1918–1920)
"According to American vexillologist Whitney Smith, the creator of the new flag was Ali bey Huseynzade." — Since this is a very specific statement citing what one individual believes, are there opinions contrary to his? As in, is the identity of the flag's creator disputed? If there is near-unanimous or unanimous agreement that it was Huseynzade, it is best not to quote Whitney Smith specifically; a general statement would be more appropriate since there is no unique connection between Smith saying that and the flag creator's identity (for instance, one would not want to write the following statement as "According to Swietochowski, within a few months, the newly adopted flag began to be questioned due to it exclusively representing Turkism"). However, if Smith in fact claimed that, and there are opinions that differ from his, those opinions should have a mention.


##### Use of the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic flag after 1920
"who were military formations of ethnic Azerbaijanis who fought on the side of Nazi Germany" — Avoid repetition of "who" if possible.
"On 6 November 1943, a congress of Azerbaijanis, held in Berlin, Germany, was headed by former Soviet Azerbaijani major Abdurrahman Fatalibeyli. During the congress, the ADR flags were used." — The second sentence comes off awkwardly. Perhaps consider merging these two? → "The ADR flag was used during a congress of Azerbaijanis headed by former Soviet Azerbaijani major Abdurrahman Fatalibeyli, held in Berlin, Germany on 6 November 1943" or similar.
"In the background, on a chest of drawers, is the tricolor flag of the ADR" — Since the image on the left also uses passive phrasing, it feels off-putting to do so again right away. Perhaps a simple "The tricolor flag of the ADR is visible in the background, on the chest of drawers."


#### Azerbaijan SSR (1920–1991)
"Russian conquer" — Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't "Soviet conquer" be more accurate?


#### Republic of Azerbaijan (1991–present)
Unlink — "Soviet Azerbaijan"; "Azerbaijan Democratic Republic" — linked previously in the prose.
"with the decree" — If it was an executive decree, it should mention the person; and if it was a committee or a national body, mention that.


### Design
"In the centre exists a white crescent and an eight-pointed star." — Slightly awkward phrasing. I would recommend a copyedit to "A white crescent and an eight-pointed star is placed in the centre", "A white crescent and an eight-pointed star is in the centre", or similar.
"which was adopted on 12 November 1995" — It is a repetition of what has already been mentioned, so I would suggest you remove it, either from this section or the other.
Unlink — "eight-pointed star" — per above.


#### Symbolism
Unlink — "Turkism"; "eight-pointed star"; "Azerbaijani National Council"; "Mammad Amin Rasulzade" — per above.
"The first president of the Azerbaijani National Council, Mammad Amin Rasulzade, noted in his speech at the parliament's session of the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic, that the colours relate to Turkic freedom, modernity, and Islamic culture." — This has already been mentioned in the first section of prose, and is repetitive to mention it again. Perhaps remove it from here or there?


### State Flag Day
Both paragraphs — which are too brief — discuss the same event. Perhaps merge them?


### Influence
Unlink — "Mammed Amin Rasulzade" — per above. Also, use "Rasulzade" instead of "Mammed Amin Rasulzade".


### References
"Azadliq Radiosu"; "National Museum of History of Azerbaijan"; "RadioFreeEurope/RadioLiberty"; "National Assembly"; "Trend News Agency" — Should not be in italics.
Some references lack an English translation — for uniformity and consistency, please add those to them.


### Literature
Title case is not followed in some citations, such as "Transcaucasia, nationalism and social change: essays in the history of Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia."
Don't need to specify "p. 116" for Pope 2005 in this section.
And that should do it. This is a very well-written and thoroughly researched article. It should pass. Thank you for your patience, Golden. — The Most Comfortable Chair 07:25, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

@The Most Comfortable Chair: Hi, thanks for the review! I've addressed all your points except the italic references. The "website" parameter automatically italicizes the website names. I'm not aware of any way to change that without switching parameters. — Golden call me maybe? 09:52, 27 June 2022 (UTC)


### Final
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it well written?
A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct: 

B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation: 

Is it verifiable with no original research?
A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline: 

B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines: 

C. It contains no original research: 

D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism: 

Is it broad in its coverage?
A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic: 

B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style): 

Is it neutral?
It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each: 

Is it stable?
It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute: 

Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content: 

B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions: 

Overall:
Pass or Fail: 
Concise and succinct, one of the better good article nominees I have reviewed. The article overs essentially all aspects, cites high quality sources, is illustrated beautifully with apt captions, and the prose flows so well. Perhaps with a bit more focus on the prose, it will be good for an FA nomination. Fantastic work, Golden! — The Most Comfortable Chair 13:10, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

I think more information about the flag should be added to this article. For example, the Military Flag of Azerbaijan, the Government Flag of Azerbaijan, etc. 5.197.255.243 (talk) 18:32, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

@Dizenter: The article you mentioned in your edit summary links to the List of German flags article, not Flag of Germany. Similarly, I suggested that the List of Azerbaijani flags article would be a more appropriate place for the image you want to add. This article focuses on the national flag of Azerbaijan and is not supposed to include every flag used within Azerbaijan. — Golden call me maybe? 15:39, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

@Golden Статья называется Флаг Азербайджана, а не Национальный флаг Азербайджана. Тоже самое касается флага Латвии, флага Норвегии, флага Швеции или флага Финляндии — Dizenter (talk) 15:57, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
@Dizenter: "National" doesn't have to be specified since it is already mentioned in the lead and the article's short summary. The articles you referenced are neither Good nor Featured articles. On Wikipedia, there are 5 featured flag articles, and none of them include the naval ensign in their infobox. See: Flag of Canada, Flag of Japan, Flag of Belarus, Flag of Hong Kong, Flag of Singapore. — Golden call me maybe? 16:11, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
@Golden то, что в синопсисе говорится только про национальный флаг, не значит, что там должно говориться только про национальный флаг. У трёх из пяти указанных вами стран морского флага нет вообще, а у двух есть отдельные статьи про морской флаг. И ориентирами для написания статей являются правила, а не статус статьи. Инфоблок позволяет размещать больше одного флага? Позволяет. Правила это запрещают? Нет. Dizenter (talk) 13:04, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
@Golden: I removed it. Ridiculous inclusion. Beshogur (talk) 11:42, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I was surprised to see that wiki still uses the temporary adjustment to the flag colour from 2013, that was repealed. The link cites azerbaijani parliament website, where in 2013 pantone colour scheme was "determined", so the flag colours supposedly changed from 2004-2013 version. This is not true, as the article 9.2 with the pantone ruling was later repealed, and the flag officially returned to it's pre-2013 colour scheme status. This can be corroborated by any official use of the flag by the state. Most importantly, repealed article 9.2 appears on the e-qanun website as stricken, and you can see it as such:
[6]https://e-qanun.az/framework/6198#_edn6 
I'd like to ask the moderators to help revert the flag to the intended 2004-2013 version. Hamidlinski (talk) 18:24, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

@Nicat49: Why the revert ? The user seems to be correct in stating that the colors have been returned to their original variant.  — Golden talk 20:46, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
It looks like we have to move files too. I made request on commons (file is move-protected so I can't move it) NMW03 (talk) 11:21, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
@NMW03 is there any update?
Hamidlinski (talk) 16:02, 25 September 2023 (UTC)