# Talk:Kamran Mirza Durrani

Tried my level best as per my knowledge to make the article as per standard of Wikipedia, --Baloch Baba  (talk) 22:17, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I think the article needs more references to secondary sources. Our relevant policy says: " Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources. ... Reliable tertiary sources can help provide broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources and may help evaluate due weight, especially when primary or secondary sources contradict each other." Borsoka (talk) 02:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi again Borsoka. Sorry, I'm not sure I follow, majority are secondary sources, no? HistoryofIran (talk) 02:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Oh, my bad. I counted all references to Noelle-Karimi as a reference to tertiary sources. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Borsoka (talk) 03:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kamran Mirza Durrani/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Nominator: HistoryofIran (talk · contribs) 01:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
Reviewer: Borsoka (talk · contribs) 03:59, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it well written?
A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct: 

B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation: 

Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?
A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline: 

B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose): 

C. It contains no original research: 

D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism: 

Is it broad in its coverage?
A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic: 

B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style): 

Is it neutral?
It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each: 

Is it stable?
It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute: 

Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content: 

B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions: 

Overall:
Pass or Fail: 

Image review

File:Shahzada Kamran Durrani.jpeg: the source is a dead link; US PD tag is needed.
Added US PD tag, but I'm not sure what to about the link part. I might be able to find the image on a random website, but I'm not sure if that will help. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:12, 26 January 2025 (UTC)
File:Shah Mahmud.png: the source is a dead link; US PD tag is needed.
Added US PD tag, but I'm not sure what to about the link part. I might be able to find the image on a random website, but I'm not sure if that will help. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:12, 26 January 2025 (UTC)
File:Mohammad Shah.jpg: source and US PD tag are needed.
I've replaced it with another image (a photo taken in the Golestan Museum), which I've added the US PD tag to. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:12, 26 January 2025 (UTC)
File:Qajar lacquer book cover, attributable to Muhammad Ismail, Qajar Iran, circa 1865, depicting the preparation of the siege of Herat.jpg: US PD tag is needed.
Added US PD tag. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:12, 26 January 2025 (UTC)
Could you add a map instead of one or two of the pictures. Borsoka (talk) 04:05, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
Unfortunately there is a severe lack of (good) maps. However, I have one currently in the works. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:00, 25 January 2025 (UTC)
I've added one now, replacing the image of Mahmud Shah Durrani, thoughts? --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:41, 26 January 2025 (UTC)
Source review

Academic sources of high quality are cited. The article is mainly verified by secondary sources, although tertiary sources are also cited.
Lee (2019): place of publication is missing; does Reaktion Books publishe peer reviewed studies? Borsoka (talk) 04:05, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
I'm not sure. I was originally skeptical of the reliability and quality of Jonathan L. Lee's work until I realized it had been published by the University of Chicago Press [1] (which says "Distributed for Reaktion Books") and that he had also published a work under Brill Publishers back in 1996 [2]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:59, 26 January 2025 (UTC)
Either mention or delete the place of publication at each title cited in section "Sources". Borsoka (talk) 02:43, 13 February 2025 (UTC)
Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:52, 18 February 2025 (UTC)
Could you quote the texts from the cited reliable sources verifying the following sentences?

Kamran Mirza is referred to as "prince" in both Afghan and Iranian texts, although they use distinct terms. 19th-century Afghan sources use the title of "Shahzada", while the 19th-century Iranian historian Mohammad Taqi Sepehr uses "Mirza".
In April 1818, the Durrani minister Fateh Khan Barakzai deposed Firuz al-Din Mirza and took over Herat.
Removed from Herat's fortress by Kamran Mirza in 1819, Mahmud Shah sought safety at the Shrine of Khwaja Abd Allah in the Gazurgah village.
The 1814 treaty between Iran and Britain stated that the latter would not interfere in any conflict between Iran and the Afghans, and therefore the Iranian siege of Herat put Britain in a difficult situation.
Some assessments, such as the one by the 19th-century British historian George William Forrest, are positive about Kamran's personality and rule. However, European and Persian records typically refer to Kamran Mirza's traits as being related to debauchery. Borsoka (talk) 01:45, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
Kamran Mirza is referred to as "prince" in both Afghan and Iranian texts, although they use distinct terms. 19th-century Afghan sources use the title of "Shahzada", while the 19th-century Iranian historian Mohammad Taqi Sepehr uses "Mirza".
"Both the Iranian and the Afghan sources describe Kāmrān as “prince” but employ different terms. While the Qajar historian, Lesān-al-Molk, consistently refers to him as Kāmrān Mirzā, 19th-century Afghan sources prefer the title of “Šāhzāda Kāmrān” (Fayż-Moḥammad, pp. 116-18, Solṭān Moḥammad Ḵāleṣ, p. 282)." (Noelle-Karimi 2010, pp. 439–440)
In April 1818, the Durrani minister Fateh Khan Barakzai deposed Firuz al-Din Mirza and took over Herat.
"Ironically, Fīrūz al-Dīn found himself eliminated from the political arena by Shāh Maḥmūd’s vazīr Fatḥ Khān Muḥammadzai Bārakzai. After his successful coup against Fīrūz al-Dīn, Fatḥ Khān installed himself in Herat" (Noelle-Karimi 2014, p. 221)
"Wazir Fateh Khan seized on Hajji Firoz’s request as a golden opportunity to kill two birds with one stone: he could send an army to Herat and bring the province back under Shah Mahmud’s authority, but at the same time depose Hajji Firoz and appoint one of his brothers to govern this strategic province, so extending his monopoly on power. Fateh Khan assembled an army of 15,000 men and, accompanied by Dost Muhammad Khan and the Dil brothers, reached Herat at the end of April 1818. He then tricked Firoz al-Din into allowing himself and a contingent of soldiers to enter the city. Once inside the town, Fateh Khan arrested Firoz al-Din, put a number of officials to death and opened the city gates." (Lee 2019, p. 177)
Removed from Herat's fortress by Kamran Mirza in 1819, Mahmud Shah sought safety at the Shrine of Khwaja Abd Allah in the Gazurgah village.
"In the following year, 1819, Kamran Mirza expelled his father from the arg and, fearing for his life, Shah Mahmud claimed sanctuary in the shrine of Khwaja Ansari at Guzargah." (Lee 2019, p. 181)
The 1814 treaty between Iran and Britain stated that the latter would not interfere in any conflict between Iran and the Afghans, and therefore the Iranian siege of Herat put Britain in a difficult situation.
"The Persian attack on Herat placed Britain in an awkward position, for under the terms of the 1814 treaty Britain agreed not to intervene in any war between Persia and the Afghans." (Lee 2019, p. 215)
Some assessments, such as the one by the 19th-century British historian George William Forrest, are positive about Kamran's personality and rule. However, European and Persian records typically refer to Kamran Mirza's traits as being related to debauchery.
"There are some positive reports concerning Kāmrān’s character and mode of governance (Masson quoted in Forrest, 1906, p. 108). On the whole, however, both Persian and European accounts attest to qualities that may be summed up as “debauchery.”" (Noelle-Karimi 2010, pp. 439–440)
HistoryofIran (talk) 20:56, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
Comments

For me, following section "Background and early lie" is extremly difficult. Perhaps some major restructuring would help: 1. Infromation about the polities, dynasties and persons mentioned in the article (Iran, Afghanistan, Herat) and their relations. 2. Information about Kamran Mirza's life. 3. Deletion of not highly relevant information, such as details Fateh Khan's capture.
Added more info about the situation, thoughts? --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:54, 26 January 2025 (UTC)
Kamran Mirza is referred to as "prince" in both Afghan and Iranian texts, although they use distinct words. 19th-century Afghan sources use the term "Shahzada Kamran", while the 19th-century Iranian historian Mohammad Taqi Sepehr uses "Kamran Mirza". I would clarify that he was styled as shahzada and mirza, and explain the two terms.
Do we know his mother?
Yet another awesome review, thank you Borsoka. I unfortunately couldn't find anything about his mother. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:47, 21 January 2025 (UTC)
Introduce Kandahar as a city or province.
Done, introduced as a city. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:39, 25 January 2025 (UTC)
What is the connection between Herat and the Durrani dynasty.
Just part of its domains. I made it a bit clearer with this edit [3]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:39, 25 January 2025 (UTC)
...to stop from pursuing... Rephrase.
Done. I'll have time for the rest in the upcoming weekend. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:09, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
Who is Fath-Ali Shah?
Added who he was. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:08, 25 January 2025 (UTC)
...he was defeated by Kamran Mirza We are not informed in previous sentences that he started a military career. Borsoka (talk) 04:57, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
The source unfortunately doesn't talk about this. All we know is that he was a governor of Kandahar at the time and thus had authority over its army. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:40, 25 January 2025 (UTC)
Split section "Background and early career" into at least two sections.
Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:27, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
...held onto its weak hold on Herat in despite... Rephrase.
Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:45, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
Once back in Kabul, Kamran Mirza told Mahmud Shah of Fateh Khan's insubordination, the plundering of Herat, and the rape of Mahmud Shah's daughter. Rephrase.
Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:33, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
Kamran Mirza sent messages to Fateh Khan that he came to deliver Mahmud Shah's congratulations... Rephrase.
Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:33, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
His brothers, holding important Durrani governorships, ... Perhaps this info should be previously to explain why Fatuh Khan was not punished soon after the rape of Kamran Mirza's siter.
Yup, added some info about it [4]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:10, 2 February 2025 (UTC)
..., aiming to put an end to the Durrani dynasty I would delete it.
Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:19, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
As a result,... Either delete, or make it clear that the text refers to the rebellion.
Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:33, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
Removed from Herat's fortress by Kamran Mirza... Context? Why did he remove his father?
Couldn't find anything about this unfortunately. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:01, 2 February 2025 (UTC)
Some info about the allies of father and son?
...during another struggle against his father Some context?
No context given by the source unfortunately. I've reworded it a bit [5]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:46, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
...amongst other things... Delete.
Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:45, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
The latter received an ultimatum from Abbas Mirza at the beginning of 1833 with two options: either have the name of the Iranian shah (king) mentioned on coin engravings and Friday prayers, pay taxes, and release hostages, or relinquish Herat and appear at the Iranian court. Rephrase (shorten and split).
Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:46, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
...that seeking more would require facing war. Rephrase.
Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:19, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
...the Russian Empire, who was pressuring him... Rephrase.
Changed "who" to "which". Thoughts? --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:46, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
Operatives?
Changed to representatives. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:19, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
...due to the Iranian shah being mentioned on coin engravings and Friday prayers... Delete.
Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:45, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
He insisted that Kamran Mirza abandon the title of shah... We are not previously informed that he adopted the title of shah.
Unfortunately the source didn't go into further detail about this. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:46, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
...it was right due to... Rephrase.
Done, was missing a word. "it was his right due to" --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:33, 1 February 2025 (UTC)
Introduce Lash-Juvain, Khaf and Qaen.
Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:19, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
...interpreted the dispute in terms of his own beliefs. He... Delete.
Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:45, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
..., despite attesting to its strength... Despite.
Sorry, I'm not sure I understand. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:46, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
I would shorten section "Second siege of Herat" by at least 15%.
I will have limite access to internet during the next two weeks, so I put the article onhold. Borsoka (talk) 02:32, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, been a busy week. I should have some time to focus on this in the weekend. HistoryofIran (talk) 12:16, 6 February 2025 (UTC)
@HistoryofIran: please ping me when you shortened section "Second siege of Herat" (or tell me why you do not accept my proposal). Borsoka (talk) 02:40, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, but respectfully I think all the info is necessary in that section. There was a lot of info I omitted, since it wasn't really related to Kamran Mirza and more appropriate for the Second Herat War. I think it currently gives a good overview of a complicated conflict we are fortunate to have much info about. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:46, 13 February 2025 (UTC)
Conflict between several of the Iranian commanders hindered the advancement of the siege, including the choice to only block two of Herat's five gates in the first two months by the Iranian prime minister Haji Mirza Aqasi. Rephrase and shorten it.
Done, thoughts? --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:37, 16 February 2025 (UTC)
The siege had barely advanced by the spring of 1838. Why past perfect and why "by"?
Removed the past perfect. Thoughts? --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:37, 16 February 2025 (UTC)
Introduce Ghuriyan as a city.
Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:37, 16 February 2025 (UTC)
...after failing to persuade the latter... To what to do?
Clarified, he wanted Mohammad Shah to make peace with Herat. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:23, 14 February 2025 (UTC)
Introduce Forrest.
Done, introduced him as a historian. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:38, 16 February 2025 (UTC)
...decline that the Durrani dynasty was going through Simplify.
Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:23, 14 February 2025 (UTC)
...had bribes kidnapped I do not understand. Borsoka (talk) 03:14, 14 February 2025 (UTC)
Ops, I meant brides. Fixed. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:23, 14 February 2025 (UTC)
During both of Mahmud Shah's rules in Kabul, Kamran Mirza held the governorship of the city of Kandahar. During this period, Kamran Mirza's uncle Firuz al-Din Mirza governed Herat under Iranian suzerainty but rebelled twice, in 1807 and 1814. During the second time, Kamran Mirza defeated him. Rephrase.
Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:37, 16 February 2025 (UTC)
I think the lead could (and should) be radically shortened and rephrased. Borsoka (talk) 02:53, 16 February 2025 (UTC)
I've rephrased it (which indirectly lead it to being shortened a very small bit). But I'm not not sure what to shorten. HistoryofIran (talk) 19:43, 16 February 2025 (UTC)
By heavily editing the lead, I became deeply involved in the article, so I need to request a second opinion on GA criteria 1A and 1B. Borsoka (talk) 02:38, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

Fair enough, thanks for improving the lead. HistoryofIran (talk) 20:13, 19 February 2025 (UTC)
@Borsoka, @HistoryofIran, I've had a read-through of the lead, and have a couple q's
When Firuz al-Din rebelled in 1814, Kamran Mirza crushed the revolt. Is 'crush' really accurate, the article only describes a defeat? 'Crush' to me implies a very specific, aggressive action a la Sherman in the American Civil War.
In 1818, the Durrani minister Fateh Khan Barakzai deposed Firuz al-Din. maybe add "deposed as ruler of Herat. His troops plundered the city", because the sentence immediately before (about the revolt getting defeated) would imply that he was not left as ruler in my reading.
The jump from This forced Mahmud Shah and Kamran Mirza to retreat to Herat, the last Durrani stronghold [presumably c. 1818]. In an attempt to strengthen Iranian control of Herat, [1833] is a bit jarring, could a somewhat smoother transition be added?
It's weird that a reference to debauchery is in the lead but no actual examples are given in the article of what it was supposed to be. If it is prominent enough to be in the lead, I would kinda expect some more explanation in the body.
Otherwise, I think it is definitely meeting GACRIT 1a/b, from the lead. Eddie891  Talk Work  10:46, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
Hi Eddie891, thanks for looking into this.
Is 'crush' really accurate, the article only describes a defeat? 'Crush' to me implies a very specific, aggressive action a la Sherman in the American Civil War.
Ops, you're absolutely right. I have now changed it to "suppressed".
maybe add "deposed as ruler of Herat. His troops plundered the city", because the sentence immediately before (about the revolt getting defeated) would imply that he was not left as ruler in my reading.
I've corrected it now (I think?).
The jump from "This forced Mahmud Shah and Kamran Mirza to retreat to Herat, the last Durrani stronghold [presumably c. 1818]. In an attempt to strengthen Iranian control of Herat, [1833]" is a bit jarring, could a somewhat smoother transition be added?
Ops, forgot an important detail - how Kamran Mirza became ruler in 1826, added it between the info.
It's weird that a reference to debauchery is in the lead but no actual examples are given in the article of what it was supposed to be. If it is prominent enough to be in the lead, I would kinda expect some more explanation in the body.
Yes, unfortunately the source didn't give any examples. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:41, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. I’m happy to sign off on the lead’s prose in that case. Eddie891  Talk Work  13:52, 30 April 2025 (UTC)
Thank you for your second opinion. Borsoka (talk) 01:41, 4 May 2025 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay in passing the article. I was quity busy in RL. Borsoka (talk) 03:24, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

No worries, thank you very much for help! HistoryofIran (talk) 10:14, 1 June 2025 (UTC)

Hi @Borsoka, what was the reason for reverting my added information regarding the disputed rape of Kamran's sister? As I mentioned there is no strong, independent scholarly confirmation of that specific allegation that Dost Muhammad Khan raped Kamran's sister outside of Lee’s narrative and related secondary retelling. If Dost Muhammad raped Kamran's sister, why did he blind his brother? Doesn't make logical sense. Instead Adamec's Who's Who of Afghanistan says he blinded Dost Muhammad's brother, Fateh Khan due to being jealous of his status and power for being so loyal to Kamran's father (Fateh Khan helped Kamran's father reclaim the throne multiple times, so again why would he let his brother rape his daughter after being so loyal to Kamran's father). Also Mohan Lal’s Life of the Amir Dost Mohammed Khan preface and text warns that many anecdotes about Dost Muhammad’s moral and personal behaviours were circulated secondhand. The fact there are contradictory reasons for Fateh Khan's blinding from different sources suggest the rape allegation isn't a confirmed fact so should be treated as such. Fezza21 (talk) 01:27, 13 October 2025 (UTC)

WP:NOR: unless a peer-reviewed source explicitly states that he did not rape her, we cannot include such a denial in the article. Borsoka (talk) 02:02, 13 October 2025 (UTC)
Lee's book that contains the allegation doesn't appear to be peer-reviewed either Fezza21 (talk) 07:48, 13 October 2025 (UTC)
Your edit pushed the article out of WP:GA quality by a lot, respectfully. Please see WP:RS, WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, WP:SYNTH, and WP:OR. None of the citations you added actually supported the claim you tried to convey, and you included your own commentary/deduction to them. Please reach WP:CONSENSUS here before you try to do anything else. And Lee is WP:RS. HistoryofIran (talk) 10:09, 13 October 2025 (UTC)