# Talk:Joe Davis

The lead section is far too ho-hum, and does not summarize why Davis is notable.

I remember him publishing his memoirs, titled 'The Breaks Came My Way'. I don't know if there are any reviews of this book. Valetude (talk) 16:09, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Markham  Wildman (i.e. Mark Wildman) made a televised century break in November 1960. However, a contemporary newspaper report (Sports Argus - Saturday 12 November 1960, page 3) says he was the first amateur to do so, "and the second player - Joe Davis being, of course, the first - to have ever done so." So either the century against Pulman (mentioned in the article) was before this rather than in 1962, or Wildman was the first, or there was an earlier televised century by Davis. (Or the sources are wrong about Wildman being first.) Can anyone confirm which? BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:56, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I've removed the claim that Davis made the first televised century from the article. Everton (Guinness Book of Snooker, 1981) says "Two amateurs, Mark Wildman (1962) and Jonathan Barron (1963) made century breaks on television before any professional did." Morrison (Hamlyn Encyclopedia of Snooker) also says it was Wildman who made the first televised century, and also has 1962. There is some confusion over the date but based on sources I've seen, it was Wildman first. Other internet sources may be taking the BBC video of Davis (or this Wikipedia page) as the source for Davis being the first. If anyone can clear this up, thanks! BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:04, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

I have removed "Steve Davis, who held the record for most professional tournament wins and himself is generally regarded as the beginning of the modern game, has stated that if he could play against a player from the past, it would be Joe Davis, to "find out how good he really was"." - Steve Davis does say in the book that he would like to play Joe "and see what he was like and to see what his standard was" but I don't see that him really singling Joe out when talking about other greats there. Also "generally regarded as the beginning of the modern game" would need a source. Please add this back in if it can be sourced.
I've also taken out "Davis is widely perceived as one of the greatest players of all time by enthusiasts and fellow professionals, including five-time World Champion Ronnie O'Sullivan." and replaced it with a quote from O'Sullivan's autobiography referencing one of Davis' books. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:36, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Joe Davis/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Lee Vilenski (talk · contribs) 13:30, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello, I am planning on reviewing this article for GA Status, over the next couple of days. Thank you for nominating the article for GA status. I hope I will learn some new information, and that my feedback is helpful. 
If nominators or editors could refrain from updating the particular section that I am updating until it is complete, I would appreciate it to remove a edit conflict. Please address concerns in the section that has been completed above (If I've raised concerns up to references, feel free to comment on things like the lede.)
I generally provide an overview of things I read through the article on a first glance. Then do a thorough sweep of the article after the feedback is addressed. After this, I will present the pass/failure. I will use strikethrough tags when concerns are met. Even if something is obvious why my concern is met, please leave a message as courtesy. 
Best of luck! you can also use the {{done}} tag to state when something is addressed. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 
Please let me know after the review is done, if you were happy with the review! Obviously this is regarding the article's quality, however, I want to be happy and civil to all, so let me know if I have done a good job, regardless of the article's outcome.


### Immediate Failures
It is a long way from meeting any one of the six good article criteria -
It contains copyright infringements -
It has, or needs, cleanup banners that are unquestionably still valid. These include{{cleanup}}, {{POV}}, {{unreferenced}} or large numbers of {{citation needed}}, {{clarify}}, or similar tags. (See also {{QF-tags}}). -
It is not stable due to edit warring on the page. -


### Links
### Prose
#### Lede
For being an article for a founder, and such a massive figure in a sport, the lede is quite short. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:57, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
As such, I think more info on English Billiards and creation of the World Championship is important. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:57, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
He also won more than just the world championshipBest Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:57, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
I think "breakbuilding" is two words Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:57, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Should probably mention Fred Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:57, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Should definately mention the maximum break. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:58, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Expanded and rewritten. No doubt it can be improved further BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:40, 18 May 2020 (UTC)


#### General
##### Early life
Common shortenings of names, such as Joseph in this case aren't needed to be explained (although, per MOS, the lede should say Joseph Davis (born...) Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:11, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done - if I've amended this in the right place. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Whittington Moor, The Queen's Hotel, - this probably needs explaination Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:11, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done - changed word order, added that there was a billiard room. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Davis lost to Fred Lawrence both in the semi-final of an invitational professional tournament at Thurston's Hall in 1920 and in the final of his first professional championship, the 1921 Midlands Counties Billiards Championship - this makes no sense. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:11, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done - split into two sentences and added "open." Will be a bit more explicit about invitation event vs. open championship if needed. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Davis won the 1922 Midlands Counties Billiards Championship, beating Lawrence in the week-long final - do we have a score? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:11, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done - Davis' own book is wrong. He beat Lawrence in the semi-final and Dennis in the final. Changed source, included score. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Davis an entry into the professional championship. - it says he's already played in some professional championships... Is this the proper name? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:11, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done - amended name here and a bit later. Looks like it was generally referred to in the press as the "Professional Championship"; Everton's History of Billiards has it in the list of champions as the "BA&CC Championship" from 1920 to 1932 and the "World Professional Championship" from 1933 to 1973. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
What happened in 1925?
 Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:11, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
World Professional Billiards Championship and century is a duplink Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:11, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
He would defend his title for the next three years – against Newman again in 1929 and 1930 and New Zealander Clark McConachy in 1932. - winning two world titles needs a bit of an expansion. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:11, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:11, 18 May 2020 (UTC)


##### Snooker
Link snooker on first mention Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Tom Dennis, Leicester Square Hall and BACC are duplinks Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
You don't need to have UK£. £ on its own is fine. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
] He retired from the event following this victory making him, as of 2015, - needs update Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:11, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
retirement from the world championship reduced its prestige
 Done - please see whether this looks OK now. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
but it never took off.[citation needed] - CN needed, probably needs a rewrite anyway. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:11, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Maybe explain the play again rule? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:34, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done Does this work? I tried not to overcomplicate it. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:11, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
What did he die of? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:35, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done - the Daily Mirror in 1978 says he had a heart attack, but I didn't find that in any other sources so have omitted it. I've used Everton's 2012 book as the source. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:25, 17 May 2020 (UTC)


##### Legacy
Davis won fifteen World Championship titles - MOS:NUM -> 15. This should read that he won 19 World Championships. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:47, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done but may need tweaking. The event wasn't called the world snooker championship originally but is recognised as such now. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:25, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
and lost off level terms only four times in his career  - needs explaination. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:47, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done - I've reworded the earlier reference to handicapping, as well as this. May need further work, I'll await your advice. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:25, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
and concluded that Joe Davis was the best player - better player. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:47, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done Changed. I don't have the book but I think Callan was making a claim for Joe Davis as the best of all time to that point - this would include him being the better of him and Steve, so the amendment made is safer. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)


##### Other
Recently I put something at WT:SNOOKER. Finalists should have {{flagathlete}} over {{flagicon}} Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:47, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Why are we linking to Amazon in the bibliography? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:47, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Template:Cite_book#Identifiers says "include [ASIN] only if standard identifiers are not available." I've changed one but can't find a different identifier for the others. I considered links to British Library records but the urls are horribly long. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:25, 17 May 2020 (UTC)


### GA Review
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar):  b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): 

It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):  d (copyvio and plagiarism): 

It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects):  b (focused): 

It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias: 

It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.: 

It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions): 

Overall:
Pass/Fail: 


### Comments
Automated note - If you fancy returning the favour, I have outstanding GA nominations that require reviewing at WP:GAN. I'd be very grateful if you were to complete one of these, however it's definitely not mandatory. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs)
Sorry about the delay BennyOnTheLoose - see above comments Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:48, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Lee Vilenski, all very helpful observations. I've made quite a few changes but expect there may well be further items to-do following this. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:40, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
I understand you may take this to FAC? I'd have some further comments then (mostly improving the lede), but as for now, it's fine for GA. Well done. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:56, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
Lee Vilenski Many thanks for your constructive review. Yes, I think Joe is important enough that FA should be the target, so all further observations very welcome. I think his snooker career and the legacy section could do with more expansion, as well as the lede. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:44, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

As there is no mention of ranking tournaments in the article, nor link to explain what they are here, I'd suggest it's better to omit "Non-ranking: 24" from the tournament wins section. Davis retired from snooker decades before the ranking system. The total of 24 also omits his billiards titles. (See also Talk:Walter_Donaldson_(snooker_player)#Infobox) Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:53, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Over a 20-year period, Davis won four World Billiards Championship titles and 15 World Snooker Championship titles. Other than in handicapped matches in which he conceded a start, he lost only four times, all towards the end of his career and against his brother Fred. 
Everton has said of Davis's influence on the game in the early 1920s: "in those days, the prevailing idea was to pot a red or two, a couple of colours and play safe but in the time he could spare from billiards Davis devoted considerable thought and practice to evolving the positional and break-building shots, sequences and techniques which are taken for granted today. 
Fred Davis, the second person to become a world champion at both snooker and billiards, said that his brother Joe was "a very good player before anyone else knew how to play the game. Ted Lowe, manager of Leicester Square Hall and later a snooker commentator for the BBC, wrote that "because of his magnetism, snooker was able to replace billiards in most clubs, pubs and billiard halls. Journalist Donald Trelford provided a similar assessment in his book Snookered (1986), writing that Davis had the vision to identify snooker as a replacement for billiards and "had the organizing genius and force of habit to make things happen in that moribund world."
Davis was not able to focus with his right eye; he played with his cue to the left of his chin.[19] Coach Frank Callan, in his book Frank Callan's Snooker Clinic (1989), compared the most successful player at the time, Steve Davis, to Joe Davis and concluded that Joe was the better player. 
While learning to play snooker, Steve Davis was heavily influenced by Joe Davis's book How I Play Snooker (1956). Ronnie O'Sullivan said of one of Davis's coaching books: "2007–8 ... was one of my best years and it was all because I was reading the Joe Davis book." O'Sullivan again paid tribute to Davis after claiming his sixth world title in 2020.
Everton wrote that, following his retirement from the world championship, Davis "through his force of personality ... controlled the game", being the pre-eminent player, chairman of the professional players' association, a co-owner of the Leicester Square Hall (the main venue for professional matches), and the negotiator for television contracts. 
Davis was nicknamed "Mr Snooker", "the Sultan of Snooker" and "the Emperor of Pot". Sandman1142 (talk) 10:25, 28 March 2024 (UTC)