# Talk:Donegal fiddle tradition

I recognize this text as being from my "Donegal fiddle pages" (google it):

Among the many younger players, the three fiddlers of the Donegal "supergroup" Altan, Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh, Paul O'Shaughnessy, Dinny McLaughlin, and Ciarán Tourish, are commonly regarded as brilliant, as are Mick Brown, Martin McGinley, Dermot McLaughlin, and others too numerous to mention by name. Finally, although he is not known as a fiddle player, Dermot Byrne, the button accordion player currently with Altan, has a style and repertoire that is firmly within the Donegal instrumental tradition; he is widely regarded as one of the finest button accordion players in Ireland. Liz Doherty is the youngest member of this tradition. Her album "Last Orders" appeared in 1999.
While I don't mind that you use my work as part of a Wikipedia article, I most certainly do mind that you do not link to my website or give me credit for the text anywhere.  That's simply unethical. --Larry Sanger (talk) 02:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I looked into this to try to fix it and I got a little confused. The earliest version of the article available, copied from your article on Nupedia, includes pretty much the same text: 

Among the many younger players, the three fiddlers of the Donegal "supergroup" Altan, Maireád Ní Mhaonaigh, Paul O'Shaughnessy, and Ciarán Tourish, are commonly regarded as brilliant, as are Mick Brown, Martin Mcginley, Dermot Mclaughlin, and others too numerous to mention by name. Finally, although he is not known as a fiddle player, Dermot Byrne, the button accordion player currently with Altan, has a style and repertoire that is firmly within the Donegal instrumental tradition; he is widely regarded as one of the finest button accordion players in Ireland.
On your Donegal fiddle pages here, it says something similar but not quite the same:

It was not until the 1990s, however, that Donegal fiddle music reached its widest audience, with the great artistic and commercial success of the band, Altan. Led by fiddler Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh, they may be the most popular Irish traditional music group playing today--they have been in the first rank of Irish "supergroups" for over a decade. Other instruments in the current lineup are another fiddle (Ciaran Tourish), button accordian (Dermot Byrne), bouzouki (Ciaran Curran), and two guitars (Mark Kelly in Ireland and Dáithí Sproule in the U.S.)--all played to the very highest standards.
So this article sounds like it's copying from your work on Nupedia, not on your website...or am I more confused than I think I am? Dreamyshade (talk) 12:37, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I have been asked by a Wikipedian friend of mine to give some suggestions to improve this article which he improved substantially , especially with referencing and sourcing.
 Here is a list of 10 notes that I noticed:

1. The lead section needs to be expanded to include one more paragraph per WP:MoS.Also of note was the fact that WP:LEAD requires the lead to summarize the whole of the article; here the problem was omitting any mention of the music's style in the lead.  Done
2. "Description of style" was on the whole well-written, however take a look at a couple of phrases there and tell me what's wrong with them:
"though one also might plausibly identify several different, but related, styles within the county."
"In general, however, the style is rather aggressive."
"but relatively uncommon elsewhere, include barndances"

Weasel words! I'll try to fix them... Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 22:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
3. I am a bit uneasy with the "Origins" and "History" Sections. The Origins section could well be named History, and the History section could be renamed to more reflect its content. Done
4. Per WP:Guide to layout, should not the History/Origins section come first (you could of course disagree with me, but the layout is important) Done
5. A bit rephrasing here could be helpful: "The historical connection between the west coast of Donegal and Scotland is an ancient one (many shared names) " (many shared names: ?, rephrasing there is important)and "Traditional music Seisiúns are still common place both in pubs and in houses" What's wrong with the second one? The first one was  Done.
6. A bit of POV : "There are a number of different strands to the history of fiddle playing in County Donegal. Perhaps the best-known and, in the last half of the twentieth century, the most influential has been that of the Doherty family" more than one citation will be helpful. Done
7. "international coverage of certain artists but because of local pride in the music" , ok so where is this international coverage? many modern players are red-linked just the paragraph above!  Done
8. Citations 12 to 21 except 17, need to be in the correct format, or rather a better format per WP:CITE and using citation templates.
 Not done Actually, they do. They use {{cite web}} in a format that, according to WP:CITE, is perfectly acceptable. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 22:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)  Done
9. The origins section was "date-less", some dates other than the 200-years mentioned in the lead are need for this section.
 Not done Even after re-reading it several times, I'm not sure why one would need dates for this section
Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 22:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC) Done

10. I felt the article was not broad enough, perhaps other aspects of the music could be mentioned. I am not particularly familiar with the music, but how about mentioning its awards, films about it, a trivia section - although discouraged per WP:TRIVIA - might actually enrich the article.
I'll try to mention awards/movies, but an actual separate "trivia" section makes me slightly uncomfortable. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 22:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
So that's it for my humble review, nothing very serious to address, but a couple of things here or there can be improved.

Λua∫Wise (talk) 11:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Great job indeed...
I am not sure if point 2 was addressed, but somehow it looks better now, although the words are still there.
I mistakingly referred to this phrase "Traditional music Seisiúns are still common place both in pubs and in houses" which is correct.
Point 8, Yes they do use cite web, but almost none states the access date, which is important, because as you know, web sites change and url's will not be helpful then-even though you mentioned the title-. Well, I think this point is rather optional, but it will certainly help if you are going for a GA.
The Origins (history, now) section might use a couple of dates here or there. I mean any date would be more precise than "ancient Irish music". However, if acquiring dates is somewhat a difficult task, you can ignore this point. I stated it in the first place because an encyclopedia would not come with a date-less history section, do not you agree?
A trivia section could indeed be a bad idea per WP:TRIVIA, adding info about movies/rewards somewhere in the article could be better.
Finally, I detected this small problem here with this url : "http://www.efxstudio.com/studio/Music%20Articles/encyclopedic/donegal_fiddle.htm"; a bad request. Perhaps you can fix it.
The article might be ready for GAN now.
Cheers. Λua∫Wise (talk) 11:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Oops, I actually forgot about going back to do point two. :o I guess if it looks better now, it's okay...
&All right, I'll insert the input dates.

If I can find some dates, I'll insert them.
Hm, that url works fine for me. Strange. What browser?
Thanks! Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 22:43, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I checked the external links via the same tools used for that purpose with FAN. It worked fine with me on firefox but strangely enough, that tool kept telling me that it was a "bad request"....
Well, I congratulate you on your praiseworthy effort, the article was kindda  before you came and now it is sortta . ;) . Λua∫Wise (talk) 12:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! I nominated it at GAN. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 01:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)
Big concern is with the sources, some of them appear to be from self-published web sties. They need to be replaced.
It is reasonably well written.
a (prose):  b (MoS): 

It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR): 
it's completely referenced, which is good, but a few of them appear to fail RS
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects):  b (focused): 
Id like to see just a hair more on the modern tradition and where it is performed
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias: 

It is stable.
No edit wars etc.: 

It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions): 

Overall:
Pass/Fail: 

Details:

The footnotes - the websites need information on who the publisher and author is so that judgement on whether the source is reliable or not can be made.
You can combine footnotes 6 and 15 by using the <ref name=> tag to reuse footnotes.
Sources - Footnotes  1 (& 19 which is to the same site) and 2 are to sources that are borderline reliable. 2 is sourcing something that could probably be sourced to a geography book pretty easy. 1 appears to be self-published. Numbers 7, 19, 27 & 28 are also suspect because they appear to be self-published. The sites for 6, 8, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 21, 22, 24, & 26 are probably okay, but the citations need to give publishers and authors. Please note I'm not saying that these sites aren't probably accurate, just that they probably wouldn't be considered reliable sources by Wikipedia.
I'd like to see a bit more on modern playing. Is it played in concerts or fairs or what?
Watch the use of "it is claimed", usually this is considered a "weasel word". If you've got a source that's reliable, just go ahead and drop the "claimed".
Maybe a BIT more on the lead, with at least one or two sentences on the history and current usage?
All in all a good start. My main concern is the self-published nature of the web sites, some probably do not pass Reliable sources, and others are going to need who published them in order to convince folks they are reliable.
It's a quibble, but usually the See also section comes right after the main text of the article and before the notes.
Another quibble, consider putting one of the pictures on the right side. The pictures are good themselves, staggering them left-right-left will make the article look better, at least in my opinion.
I've put the article on hold for seven days to allow folks to address the issues I've brought up. Feel free to contact me on my talk page, or here with any concerns, and let me know one of those places when the issues have been addressed. If I may suggest that you strike out, check mark, or otherwise mark the items I've detailed, that will make it possible for me to see what's been addressed, and you can keep track of what's been done and what still needs to be worked on. Ealdgyth | Talk 16:56, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I've formatted the refs as you asked, as well as the other points. Judge which ones are reliable; I'll replace the ones that aren't. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 17:39, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I think we're looking at problems with the The Donegal Fiddle Pages site, the Musical Traditions site, the Ireland's last nomadic people project, the P. V. O'Donnell site and the Irish 'session' page (it's a transcription of a mailing list post which is not reliable, unfortunately). A few of the other sites might not pass muster at FA, but given the problems with finding obscure information and the fact that they are being published by at least some sort of magazine/company, they probably make it okay for GA status. Featured Article Candidates is real picky on websites, much pickier than I am for GA.
I do want to restate that I'm not thinking these sources are not good. Given the obscurity of the subject, I'm sure that these websites are actually maintained by folks who love the music and they are probably great resources, unfortunately, Wikipedia standards for reliable sources make using self-published sources really difficult.
And I really liked the article. It's a great little article about a neat tradition, and I want to make sure it makes GA (and FA if you're wanting to take it there). Ealdgyth | Talk 18:21, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
What I did is I replaced the refs with some of the books already present in the non-inline references section (I also added one). I own a few of these, and have read summaries of the others, so I think it's plausibly safe to reference the facts with them.
I don't intend to improve it to FA in the near future, but may consider it for a future project. Thanks for your encouragement. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 18:50, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Just need to format the new footnotes to match the others. Also footnote 14 is lacking any text, (I'm sure it's a typo). I'd like to see page numbers for the book citations also.... I know, being picky. Otherwise looks good! Ealdgyth | Talk 20:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the full citations you can get from clicking on the refs. When citing books, that's the way to do it, so I don't need to change them at all. You can browse through some existing GAs (Islamic astronomy for example) to see such a standard. The empty ref seems to be a bug with the citation software; if you look at the source, you'll see that a ref is there. I'll ad the page numbers now... Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 20:09, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Just make them consistent, and stick with one style. Right now there are two styles in the footnotes. (Not as bad as another GA review I just did where there were I think four or five different styles across the page, including Harvard! Yikes!) Yeah, it's picky, but it's one of those things that has to be consistent to make the article look good. Ealdgyth | Talk 20:12, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, done. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 20:21, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! Looks good. Sorry to be picky aobut the consistency but it certainly makes the article look more professional. Passing it now! Ealdgyth | Talk 20:32, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your time and effort. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 22:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The statement that Liz Doherty is the youngest member of this tradition is simply not true, as i suggests that there are no more players after Liz Doherty. What about Damien and Roisin Harrigan, Derek McGinley, Merle Drost, Aoife Mclaughlin, Tara Connaghan, Stepehn and Claire Gallagher: the list goes much further. Most of the significant players under the age of thirty haven't recorded CDs, and CDs are not the standard by which significance in this area needs to be judged, but rather their contribution on the ground which is sadly not as common knowledge. The Donegal Fiddle tradition is a living, breathing tradition, with literally hundreds of young children actively participating in classes and workshops throughout the year. In my opinion, Doherty is fairly divorced from the Donegal 'scene', all of her albums being primarily comprised of music form outside Ireland. If you want to mention the younger famous generation making their way with the Donegal style, surely Ciaran O'Maonaigh and Aidan O'Donnell are too important to be left out.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ambassadorfish (talk • contribs) 13:21, 26 March 2009 (UTC) 

This is a truly appalling article. It is inaccurate and amateurish throughout. Let’s for the present look at one of the final sections: 


= Modern =
“The three fiddlers of the Donegal "supergroup" Altan, Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh, Paul O'Shaughnessy, Dinny McLaughlin, and Ciarán Tourish, are generally admired within Donegal.[16] Liz Doherty is the youngest member of this tradition.”
Okay, Footnote 16 refers to: "Feldman, Allen, and Eamonn O'Doherty. The Northern Fiddler: Music and Musicians of Donegal and Tyrone. Belfast: Blackstaff Press, 1979."
Altan was not formed until 1987, Dinny McLaughlin was never a member of Altan, and none of these fiddlers were mentioned anywhere in "The Northern Fiddler: Music and Musicians of Donegal and Tyrone" by Feldman and Doherty. So This is a FALSE REFERENCE!
This fake reference has been deleted. The numpty who "composed" this article should be ashamed! So long as it remains in this sorry state people should simply remove the clearly fraudulent parts!
And “Liz Doherty is the youngest member of this tradition.” Seriously? This nonsense claim in what's meant to be an encyclopaedia article? 
If you’re going to download and steal an article on a subject, please make sure the original author has some idea what they’re writing about, rather than mere personal opinion and ignorant prejudice. This entire article on The Donegal Fiddle Tradition is totally unreliable and should be deleted in its entirety, so that someone with a clue about the subject can write one from scratch. This article cannot just be touched up; it is awful and needs to be removed completely and replaced by a genuine article written by someone with actual knowledge, not just some gullible nube with access to Google and a willingness to believe anything the internet throws up.
To top off this disaster of google-investigation and shoddy scholarship, the article inexplicably has a photo of a fiddler from Newfoundland. Please delete this rubbish article immediately!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.241.28 (talk) 03:29, 22 October 2011 (UTC) 


### This is a mess
I have to agree with the above anonymous commenter--this is really an appalling article.  Paddy Moran of Newfoundland as the only pictured fiddler?!  Liz Doherty, the "youngest member" of the tradition?  Dinny McLaughlin, a member of Altan?  And that only scratches the surface.  My original was far better.  I strongly recommend that you simply replace the present, extremely problematic text with the older, problem-free text.  I'd edit it myself, but I have no stomach to actually touch Wikipedia articles anymore. --Larry Sanger (talk) 19:30, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

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