# Talk:Criccieth Castle

I've only read through part of the article so far, but I thought I'd leave some comments here:

The lead summarises the article well. One thing I'd be tempted to add would be an acknowledgement of the buildings within the castle and their state (or rather their lack). The current emphasis is on the curtain walls, towers, and gatehouse as the surviving remains, but I assume there would have been buildings within the castle that don't survive.
It might also be worth mentioning in the lead that the castle is open to visitors. It is in the infobox, so it could go either way.
"At this time the only structures in Criccieth were the parish church of St Catherine and its associated buildings": First of all, I think this is an accurate reflection of what O'Neil wrote in his 1945 article; O'Neil says "So far as is known, before the early thirteenth century the only buildings at or near the site of the present castle and town of Criccieth were the church and any concomitant buildings in its immediate vicinity." However, I'm not sure it rings true. My reading of it places emphasis on "So far as is known", because the presence of a church near a castle would make it likely that there is a settlement nearby. The pairing of a castle and church was fairly common, especially in settlements intentionally founded by the local lord. The church must have been intended to serve some community outside the castle walls, otherwise a chapel in the castle would have been sufficient. The issue here is what to do without overstepping the guidance on original research. I'd be tempted to water down the wording.
Richard Nevell (talk) 23:01, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Sorry Richard, I completely missed this until now! To respond:
I've mentioned the inner ward buildings and that the castle is open to the public to the lead. I've not mentioned opening times or similar as they could become outdated at any time.
It's not particularly clear in O'Neil, but Dolbenmaen is about five miles north of Criccieth, so we're not dealing with a nucleated settlement built around a church and castle. The promontory on which the castle is built was apparently unoccupied beforehand except for a possible prehistoric camp, so it's not unreasonable to assume the church at Criccieth was an isolated structure which primarily served the scattered farms around it.
A.D.Hope (talk) 12:48, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
No worries, they really are minor points. On a related note, the sources used are pretty much what I would expect for an article like this and I'm not seeing significant gaps. I checked Nicola Coldstream's "Architects, Advisers and Design at Edward I’s Castles in Wales" but it only mentions Criccieth and I don't think there's anything there that can be adapted here. Richard Nevell (talk) 20:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
They're points worth raising, Richard! Thanks for checking Coldstream, much appreciated. It's good to have some reassurance that the bibliography is more or less comprehensive. A.D.Hope (talk) 09:45, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Criccieth Castle/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Zawed (talk · contribs) 06:42, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

I will take a look at this one, comments to follow in due course. Zawed (talk) 06:42, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Comments as follows:
Lead

Further repairs took place under Edward II in the early fourteenth century.: this sentence is out of place chronologically with the following sentence
Rearranged, done
Just a suggestion, but I wonder if it is worth linking 'romantic ruin' to Romanticism?
Done
Early history

No antecedence for "the area"
Fixed
Since it is presented in italics, shouldn't there be a translation of Llys?
Done
Is there an appropriate link for St Catherine that could be added?
There isn't, unfortunately
Because the use of phase 1 etc... in the infobox, this phrasing could be worked into the text in this section for consistency
I see you have done this in the building sequence, so striking here
link Edward I in the second paragraph
Done
In the third para, an issue here: The these changes
Fixed
link 'borough'?
Done
Suggesting adding Sir William Leyburn as a past commander in the infobox, particularly the garrison value in the infobox corresponds to the period when he was in command
Done, I've also corrected to use the 'Leyburn' spelling throughout
The way I read it, the fourth paragraph is uncited. It ends with note [a], and the cite is for that note, not the paragraph
Fixed by duplicating citation at end of paragraph
O'Neil identifies these: suggest adding context for O'Neil, e.g. English archeologist Bryan O'Neil identifies...
Done
Later history

the castle was captured during the Welsh Revolt...
Fixed
The state carried out extensive consolidation of the fabric,: 'fabric'?
In this context 'fabric' means 'building', and it's a common term in the sources. I could add a Wiktionary link if you think that would be helpful?
supervision of Bryan O'Neil;: the link on Bryan O'Neil should be moved to his first mention (see final bullet point of previous section above)
Done
link Cadw
Done
Building sequence

Dupe link here: Bryan O'Neil
Fixed
considered Llywelyn ab Iorwerth to be the more probable builder.
Fixed
Architecture

The sequence of the castle's construction is not entirely clear, but the general consensus is that it was built in three main phases.: this is a bit repetitive given it is discussed in the previous section. Perhaps trim it a bit and recast along the lines of "As noted above, ..."
Fixed as suggested
The first paragraph of the outer ward section is uncited
I've deleted the introductory paragraphs in the inner and outer ward subsections, as they largely repeat the section introduction.
Other than that, this section reads well
Thank you!
Is it possible that the images under the headings 'The inner gatehouse' and 'The outer ward' could be centred to match the position of those headings?
I do agree, but the images have caused me no end of trouble so I'm a bit afraid to poke them again.
Sources

No need for the garrison number in infobox to be cited since it is (will be) cited in the fourth paragraph of the Early history section
Fixed
I don't get the formatting of cites 3 and 4 due to the use of the ampersand; to me it implies two cites?
Those cites use Template:National Historic Assets of Wales, which for some reason includes the ampersand. I don't like it, but I'm also unsure if it's possible to remove it.
Looks to be RS otherwise
Spotchecks
Cite 29, only supports the finer details of the crucifix, but not the precise location of where it was found (the gatehouse). Everything else in that paragraph up to the placement of cite 29 is not supported.
This is now cite 30, and cites O'Neil to support the location. Fixed the unsupported previous sentence.
Cite 6 (Wiles), supports a lot of the material discussed, I assume the rest comes from Avent
Having re-read the paragraph I'm not happy with my interpretation of the sources, so I've re-written it. Avent supports the Norman origin and the move to Criccieth, the RCAHMW and Wiles should support the rest.
Cite 24, doesn't support the 42,000 and 48,000 visitors per year fact, but that would be supported by the cites used in note b
Fixed by including the cites in note b at the end of that sentence
Cite 17, OK
Cite 21, OK
Cite 42, it may be because O'Neil is a bit hard going to read, but I'm not getting the point that the first and second storeys were probably identical
Similar to the above, I've re-written the passage. You're right about O'Neil not supporting the two floors being identical, that was my mistake.
Images

Well illustrated and appropriate tags used
Cheers!
That's it for me at this stage, putting on hold for now. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 09:49, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Zawed. Thank you for taking on the review, firstly, it's much appreciated! As you can see I've now responded to your points, apologies if I've inadvertently missed any. In a couple of cases your feedback has prompted larger changes than you suggested, but nothing too massive. Let me know what you think, and I'm looking forward to the next stage of the process. All the best, A.D.Hope (talk) 15:40, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
Just to keep you abreast of things, while editing another article I stumbled across some good aerial images of the castle on Commons, so I've used one as the lead image and labelled one in lieu of a plan. I did enquire about using these plans but I think they're licenced in a way we can't use. A.D.Hope (talk) 23:12, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
I'm happy with the responses and changes to the article. As I believe the article meets the necessary criteria, I am passing it as GA. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 08:06, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
That's wonderful! Thank you for undertaking the review, much appreciated. All the best, A.D.Hope (talk) 12:36, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wales § Cadw's renaming of castles.  Concerning the bolding and formatting of the Welsh name in this article following its adoption by Cadw. DankJae 20:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)