# Talk:Carly Foulkes

Multiple sources report August 4, 1988, but none are obvious RS. Gerardw (talk) 19:41, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Carly Foulkes/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Mike 289 15:05, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
I have revieved this article and it is pretty good. The only issue I have with it is that the article is at a start class. It needs to be expanded.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mike28968 (talk • contribs) 15:05, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I have written a ton of WP:GAs (as you may know from my user page). Start class articles are eligible. In order to fail an article you must find fault with an issue at WP:WIAGA.  For this stage of her career, there is nothing more available in the public domain to my knowledge.  This is a classic shorty.  For other, short GAs see articles like Jordan Kovacs (4860 characters of readable prose), B. J. Prager (4027 chars) and Roanoke Building (5376 chars), to name a few.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  18:05, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
My shortest GA may be Dan Cocoziello (2889 chars).--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  18:16, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Okay, then this article looks good enough to be a GA.Mike 289 18:30, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Some of my other GAs shorter than Miss Foulkes (3484 chars) include Scott Bacigalupo (3085 chars) and Ryan Mollett (2898 chars).--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  18:33, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Do you know what to do next? See WP:GAC.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  18:43, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
P.S. even National Basketball Association player Darius Morris (4609 chars) and Tim Hardaway Jr. (5306 chars) are not much longer.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  19:32, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Alright I heard you Mike 289 20:06, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
One last one since I have been looking em up: National Football League player Jonas Mouton (4387 chars).--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  20:33, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
I was curious to find out my shortest so here are all the rest of mine shorter than Miss Foulkes: Chase Promenade (3353 chars), J. T. White (3107 chars) and Ariel Meredith (2734 chars).--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  04:13, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Sure it'd be great to have a picture. But it's too much of stretch to claim fair use for one from the commercial, especially as that is use in T-Mobile_myTouch_4G#Commercials. Gerardw (talk) 23:39, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

This is a rare instance where the physical appearance/attire of the spokesperson is well known. She is well-known enough for her physical appearance and attire that she is caricature by competing companies in a manner that the television viewing public is suppose to pick up on.  This is not just a random screenshot.  She is known for wearing pink dresses and caricatured for it. WP should have a picture so that the audience understands what is being caricatured, IMO.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  03:37, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
On the other hand, is "Carly Foulkes" known for her pink dresses, or is the "T-Mobile girl" known for them? Foulkes was known to remark in interviews that she does not dress in pink on a regular basis. Arguably, it is a character she plays in the commercials and that character is known for the dresses. Accordingly, it can be documented in those articles instead of her BLP. Elizium23 (talk) 04:44, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
If you want to debate the fineries of WP:NFCC, I am at your mercy.  Personally, all I can say is that our sources refer to "Carly" and not the TMo Girl.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  05:32, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
I've raised the question at Wikipedia:Media_copyright_questions#Disputed_fair_usage.2C_Carly_Foulkes_image. Gerardw (talk) 11:19, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Since someone attempted to re-add the picture (or add a similar picture) yesterday, here's the link to the archived discussion: Wikipedia:Media copyright questions/Archive/2011/August#Disputed fair usage.2C Carly Foulkes image.  I'd summarize it as "editors of this and the T-Mobile myTouch 4G article felt the image was appropriate, but others said definitely not, for both articles".  The picture has not been deleted or removed from the other article, although it's only been around a couple of weeks and I'd be surprised if it survives.  RossPatterson (talk) 15:04, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I wonder why someone doesn't just add some other picture of her? Potentially one like this: http://www.31night.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/blog-Carly-Foulkes-111128_200821.jpg I honestly don't understand what the rules are re: fair use for photos. But it seems crazy that someone with SO many pictures on google image search has none on her wikipdia page.
Soy.lor.n (talk) 20:39, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

We need a picture that the photographer has explicitly stated can be used by anyone for any purpose. (Roughly paraphrasing the creative commons license). Note -- the "Gerardw" posts above are mine, I changed my wiki name since then Nobody Ent 21:30, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Is that required in an article?Mike 289 16:55, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Lots of models have shoe size, dress size, breast size, waist size and hip size in their infobox.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  17:31, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
breast size?Greg Heffley  19:23, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
It just takes a little research.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  19:29, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Actually the existing ref had the info. Nobody Ent 21:31, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

The alleged Twitter account @FoulkesCarly, cited in a reference and an external link, is not "Verified" by Twitter. I am inclined to remove the links, unless someone has some kind of proof that it is hers? Elizium23 (talk) 05:01, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't have proof, but I follow her and it seems to be a real account. Although she rarely responds, I think she reads when I @mention her.  I will tell her she should "Verify" her account.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  06:40, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
P.S. based on activities and images posted, it really seems to be her.  Plus she does not tweet as if she is a fan of herself.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  06:44, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
I have tweeted her to see if she would consider verifying her account.  However, one way to tell if it is really her is to see if other verified accounts tweet with her at that account (which they do).  E.G., when she was in Chicago filming Powers (FX TV series), her co-stars, writers, crew and such tweeted her at this account with pictures that she forwarded.  She has even tweeted about filming her holiday commercials last week. A fan posing as her would not know about this type of thing.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  07:25, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
T-Mobile verified the account last spring (prior to me citing it). We'd have to dig through history to find their tweet. Gerardw (talk) 09:21, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
She tweeted me at 8:53 central (13:53 UTC, I believe) the following: "@Tony_The_Tiger you don't think I've tried? Harder than you think :)"--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  14:44, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Do we have any advice for her?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  14:44, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
How do I cite a specific tweet?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  14:44, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

<ref name="tw111003">{{cite web |last=Foulkes |first=Carly |date=October 3, 2011 |accessdate=October 3, 2011 |publisher=Twitter |title=Status update |url=http://twitter.com/#!/FoulkesCarly/status/120859009392717824}}</ref>
Gerardw (talk) 15:54, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
How do you find that number.  I think this citation would require both my question and her answer to properly cite the issue. Tell me how I can find the number for citing my question tweet.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  17:12, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Find the tweet in your timeline, and click on its timestamp for a specific link. Elizium23 (talk) 17:16, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Got it, but it messed up the references because the external links follow the {{reflist}}. How do I fix that?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  18:01, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Gerardw, what is the purpose of moving the ref for twitter verification to where you just moved it.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  20:49, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Fixes the error with references coming after reflist. Gerardw (talk) 01:17, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
Those refs are useless and irrelevant there. We should remove them and note the (sort of) verification in some other way.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  01:46, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
Go ahead. Gerardw (talk) 11:02, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
I will, but first I am awaiting some explanation of this edit to convert the article to list-defined references. I have never heard of this formatting. I will undo all that as well if there is no response or no good explanation.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  15:03, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

As the magenta is more closely associated with T-Mobile than Ms. Foulkes, I've moved the color into to T-Mobile_USA#Marketing. Gerardw (talk) 12:56, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Do any of the "magenta" references say Ms. Foulke's dresses are magenta? Gerardw (talk) 13:22, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
She is the corporate spokesperson. She is wearing corporate colors. There is a misconception that the dresses are pink, when in fact they are magenta.  We need to resolve this in the text. We need to present the reader with the proper content to draw the proper conclusions.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  15:23, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
First of all, you need a WP:RS to say they are magenta -- they are routinely described as pink. See is a model who appears in their commericals, not their corporate spokesperson. Finally it's essentially trivia.Gerardw (talk) 16:22, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I apologized. When you reverted yourself, I thought you consented to my opinion. I'll add a ref saying the dresses were magenta.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  04:29, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
I reverted because I didn't want to be edit warring while we discussing. The additional references help alot, but you seem to be saying all the dresses in the commercial where the same color? The earlier ones were described as pink. Gerardw (talk) 08:43, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
It is my belief that pink has been used incorrectly to describe magenta.  They are very close in the color spectrum.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  13:50, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
You may very well be correct, but Wikipedia policy is to have citations for things. Are you familar with Wikipedia:Verifiability? WP:OR also applies. Gerardw (talk) 14:00, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 The PCMag reference does not say the dresses in the commercials are pink ... note Ms. Foulkes was interviewed at a publicity event at which she was wearing a dress different than the early commercials with the LeClair dress or the motorcyle. Gerardw (talk) 19:42, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Correct PCMag says "the winsome brunette in the magenta dress". My point is that some early articles noted that the dresses were magenta.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  20:16, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
But you're not providing references to them.Gerardw (talk) 20:29, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Last I looked, the article had two.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  23:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Which two? Gerardw (talk) 23:26, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
See these edits.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  23:41, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I have yet to see any biographica details about the number of siblings that she has in any traditional WP:RS. I follow her on twitter and am of the impression that she has one sister Kimmy who lives in Toronto and another named Angie who lives elsewhere (likely in Halifax). This is what I have so far in this regard:

Her declaration that she has sisters in this photo: http://twitter.com/#!/FoulkesCarly/status/100757183523848192
Birthday tweet to little sister Kimmy: http://twitter.com/#!/FoulkesCarly/status/148439997706534912
Attempt to drum up followers for Angie: http://twitter.com/#!/FoulkesCarly/status/144570954738176001
A Tweet by Angie pining that she has far fewer followers than her sisters: http://twitter.com/#!/AngieFoulkes/status/144490899563487232
A Tweet by Kimmy that the family pet misses the sisters: http://twitter.com/#!/kimmyfoulkes/status/148616345213337601
Can this type of stuff be considered reliable evidence that she has two sisters named Kimmy and Angie?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  07:12, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

P.S. I have tweeted her at least twice in hopes that she would confirm via a single declarative tweet that these are her sisters.  Although I have been honored by about 5 responsorial tweets from Miss Foulkes, she has not responded on this subject.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  07:28, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
A non twitter source [1] -- haven't researched the site to determine reliability. The tweets you have referenced meet the requirements Wikipedia:Rs#Self-published_and_questionable_sources, so inclusion is appropriate. Nobody Ent (Gerardw) 11:11, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
That is not a WP:RS without confirmation that the publisher is some sort of modelling industry authority. Furthermore since it seems to be a one-man production, the standards for authority are extremely high in this case. He could not just be someone who once worked in human resources in the talent industry.  He would have to be an internationally known talent scout or something. On a scale of 1 to 10, I would describe that source as about a 3. We have to find something else or come to an agreement that we have sufficient twitter content to rely on.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  14:23, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Obviously I'm fine with the twitter and Kww disagrees; so you could be bold and add the content, wait for more comments to appear and determine a stronger consensus, or open an RFC and solicit input. If you do add the sisters to the article, the twitter content does not would indicate she has at least two, not necessarily exactly two, sisters. Nobody Ent (Gerardw) 14:32, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Nope. Using that set of tweets to synthesize a statement like "She has two sisters, Kimmy and Angie" would violate WP:SYNTH. That's the problem with Twitter: the statements are so short that you need to use context to evaluate them, and that generally violates WP:OR in some fashion.—Kww(talk) 11:21, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
That's an overly strict interpretation of synth; common sense applies. Adding the existence of one sister named Kimmy to the existence of another sister named Angie to conclude two sisters is simply WP:CALC Nobody Ent (Gerardw) 11:40, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm not being overly strict at all. It's not a case of WP:CALC. Conflating different statements by different people about different topics is a classic WP:SYNTH violation.—Kww(talk) 12:08, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Do you
doubt that Carly Foulkes actually has (at least) two sisters named (or nicknamed) Kimmy and Angie?
believe that such a statement, if it turned out be incorrect would be libelous or in anyway cause harm to Carly Foulkes reputation? Nobody Ent (Gerardw) 14:32, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I don't believe the answers to either of those questions matters. What matters is that we don't have any reliable source that directly states "Carly Foulkes has two sisters, one named Angie and the other Kimmy", or even two sources, one of which names a sister and another which names another sister. If all we have are tweets, that's a pretty good sign that the information is completely unimportant anyway: no independent source has determined the relationship to be worth commenting on. If no one else cares, why should we?—Kww(talk) 15:22, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Because a Wikipedia editor, acting in good faith (Tony) cares. Nobody Ent (Gerardw) 17:44, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I don't think that these facts are important enough to rely on tweets to put them in the article. I think it is best just to wait for a secondary source to document her siblings and then we can go with what is said there. Elizium23 (talk) 19:59, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I thought it was unimportant things that we might reference by Twitter, whereas with more important facts, we require more strict evaluation of WP:RS.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  21:30, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
WP:RS is a universal requirement, for important and unimportant things alike. That is especially true for information in a living person's biography.—Kww(talk) 21:50, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Let's put it this way: have her sisters affected her career in some way? Are they notable by themselves? Are they used or referenced in the commercials where Carly stars? The biographies on Wikipedia should cover relevant facts about a person's life. Just throwing in the kitchen sink because we managed to find out about it in some way, not really helpful to building a cohesive picture of this person's career. Let me introduce an example from the past. Melissa Joan Hart wrote in her autobiography web page that she was born on Easter Sunday. Someone introduced this to Hart's Wikipedia article, and I at first defended the addition. After all, it was verifiable. However, some other editors pointed out that there was no assertion that Easter Sunday was important to Hart or her career, and without that, it should not be included. I think it is best when we stick to what secondary sources have covered about someone's life, because that intrinsically proves notability and due coverage can be given. Elizium23 (talk) 21:53, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
WP:RS#Self-published_and_questionable_sources_as_sources_on_themselves makes the following points, and explicitly states that they apply to tweets:
Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:
the material is not unduly self-serving;
the material does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities);
the material does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
there is no reasonable doubt as to the authenticity and source of the material;
the article is not based primarily on such sources.
Tweets about Foulkes's sisters would fall under the second prohibition. RossPatterson (talk) 22:38, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

To begin with, I think the section title should serve as the title for the next book bearing the late Doug Adams' name or the name of Pussy Riot's next CD. Just sayin'.
Recently I removed1 the following text from the article:

"Despite the association with pink dresses due to the T-Mobile ad campaign, she claims not to wear pink in her personal wardrobe, which as of 2011, came in part from Urban Outfitters and AllSaints.(ref)"
Shortly thereafter, that edit was removed2, offering the following compromise:

"Despite the association with pink dresses due to the T-Mobile ad campaign, she claims not to wear pink in her personal wardrobe.(ref)"
My problems with the inclusion of this information is threefold. Firstly, I think there is an inherent sexism in discussing the fashion choices of a woman who's not notable for them, and deserves the Hillary Clinton Treatment3 for its use. It seems complimentary, but is actually insulting and trivializes a female's accomplishments - something unseemly for an encyclopedia using neutrality as one of its Five Guiding Principles.
Secondly, we have no references supporting the idea that she is "associated" with pink dresses (outside the venue of a single T-Mobile ad). Unless it can be verified that this is an overwhelmingly notable feature of her popularity, we shouldn't include it.
Lastly, it isn't important. She maybe be famous for the T-Mobile ad, and was a model beforehand, but its of undue importance to focus on the fashion choices of her personal life. It borders on fanboy creepiness, and we should treat the subject of this article with the same editorially encyclopedic respect as we would the article of Teddy Roosevelt or Glenn Close.
I should point out that I don't think the edit in question was made due to any overt decision to subtly denigrate the subject. I am saying that the result is such. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 09:25, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

We include her association with pink dresses for one and only one reason. We are a tertiary resource that summarizes secondary resources. Google "Carly Foulkes" "Pink dress".--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  10:52, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
In addition to TonyTheTiger's reply, your "a single T-Mobile ad" is inaccurate unless you add the word "campaign" to the end. The article has several cites discussing the importance of the pink/magenta color to the campaign, and how it has consistently used the color in the many, many TV commercials/print ads/billboards featuring Foulkes since the extensive multiyear campaign began.
As for the actress herself not wearing pink, it's a minor factoid that is not inappropriate given Foulkes' clear identification with the color. If Wikipedia had been mainstream during the Dell Dude's time on national television, and the press reported that the actor actually owned and used an Apple computer, surely this fact would have been  appropriate to similarly (and briefly, to avoid WP:UNDUE which I acknowledge is always a risk with this sort of aside) mention? Speaking of Apple, another example: Ronald Wayne, one of Apple's three founders, never owned an Apple product himself until recently receiving an iPad as a gift. Would you say that his article mentioning this curiosity is inappropriate? Ylee (talk) 12:17, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm don't care whether she likes pink dresses or not, nor whether such preference is in the article or not. However, arguing on some "inherent sexism" basis is absolutely bogus; she's not Secretary of State, she's a fashion model / TV actress -- appearance (and style) are an intrinsic aspect of her profession. See extensive coverage of Justin Beiber's apperance -- there's an entire section discussing it. NE Ent 12:35, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
(Addressing the comments in the order they were made)
Tony, I am not arguing that a Google search cannot find find a relationship between Ms. Foulkes and the color pink. As a matter of fact, I googled "Tony the Tiger" and "pink" and came up with over 2 million hits. Google searches, in and of themselves, are poor persuasion tools.Additionally, I would point out that simply because a fact can be cited doesn't mean it isn't a trivial fact.
Ylee, the "single ad" reference refers to the inception of the new ad campaign, wherein T-Mobile Girl looks through a closet full of identical dresses and instead chooses racing leathers. We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the use of pink in  the ad campaign is a symbol of T-Mobile, not of Ms. Foulkes. Attempting to blur the edges of her gig with T-Mobile with her real self int he real world is the realm of creepy. She is identified by name, not by color.
Lastly, Ne Ent, I would submit that we have very few articles about male actors who sell products where their personal fashion choices are cited; actually, I've looked at quite a few, and I see nothing that would compare to this. Among these spokespersons were: Peter Grosz and T. J. Jagodowski (spokespersons for Sonic), Isaiah Mustafa (spokesperson for Old Spice), Dennis Haysbert (spokesperson for Allstate Insurance) and Dean Winters (also a spokesperson for Allstate). We don't even tie former T-Mobile spokesperson Catherine Zeta-Jones to her fashion choices.
Out of respect, i am not going to call you on your claim that there isn't an inherent sexism rife in advertising, NE Ent; there are rampant examples of such, and such was tangential to my point. Yes, Ms. Foulkes is a model and appearance and style are absolutely part of her profession - when she's on a job. Whate she wears when she isn't working isn't useful information. It's trivial and gives the impression that the way that T-Mobile dresses her in pink leather is the sum total of who the actor/model is. Note that we don't have a more substantial piece of trivia, like the fact that Ms. Foulkes isn't driving the Ducati motorcycle we see in the ads. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:19, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
The difference is that the public identifies neither Foulkes nor her campaign with the Ducati motorcycle brand. It has only recently appeared in the campaign, and there are no news articles discussing any such link as there exists with the pink/magenta color. Had all of Foulkes' commercials from the first featured her with the motorcycle, and the media had given them as much attention as the pink/magenta one received, I can guarantee 1) there would be articles calling her the "T-Mobile motorcycle girl", and 2) there would be at least one RS briefly mentioning that Foulkes doesn't actually know how to ride a motorcycle and that stunt drivers do all the actual riding in the ads. Ylee (talk) 19:56, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
I would tend to disagree with your first assessment, Ylee. The new campaign featuring the T-Mobile Girl on a Ducati motorcycle began in mid-April, 2012. Do you want to guess when this article was started by Tony the Tiger? So, the interest in Ms. Foulkes would appear to have been right around the time she wrapped her legs around a 1000cc Ducati superbike. Please feel free to present some reliable sources that refer to Ms. Foulkes' choices in outfits that predate the motorcycle campaign, but I am guessing there aren't going to be any of substance.
However, we are moving rather far afield. We are left with three different facets of the problem here: sexism (ie., we don't comment on the fashion choices of male spokesmodels), the lack of cited association with pink dresses and pink fashion, and of the trivial and undue weight being given to that triviality. To my mind, the combination of those three should make us reconsider just how terribly important this information is to an article about a living person. If her fashion choices are - as NE Ent suggests, of paramount importance since she is  a model, there should be overwhelming citation to this effect. That there isn't says volumes to me. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 20:39, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
The article was properly sourced and discussed the pink dresses before the ducati campaign.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  20:56, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
The article wasn't created until after the inception of the Ducati campaign, Tony. The trivial information about the dresses was indeed there at the beginning, likely because of a dearth of information about Ms. Foulkes when you started the article. That doesn't make it less sexist, doesn't cite any examples of overt press scrutiny about the pink dresses until after the skin-tight leather was introduced and it certainly doesn't render it any more important. I am saying that it is less important, and other information can replace the trivia. If she is notable enought o have an article, I am sure we can cite her professional career, not her trivial private fashion choices. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 21:15, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
The article was a year old when the ducati campaign began.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  21:34, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Jack Sebastian's claims are incorrect; the article was created by myself, not TtT, in April 2011; at that point the T-Mobile campaign had created sufficient buzz she was at that point notable. The reference to her personal style not including pink was added by TtT on 18 July 2011. NE Ent 21:52, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I stand corrected; I misread the article history. My apologies. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 02:23, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
That does not, however, invalidate my concerns over the preoccupation with her personal fashion choices. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:08, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Clearly, further discussion is needed, as I pointed out two days ago. Discussion prevents edit wars. If those who deeply desire including what I think is clearly trivial information being given undue weight, then perhaps an RfC is necessary. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 02:28, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

She was broadly discussed as the girl in pink dresses.  Now in the post April 2012 world, it would be good to find sources confirming that she has madeover her image as a badass biker girl (or whatever the PD RS world describes her as). I find one source that presents her new image (and is mirrored quite a bit). I sort of see a second source. This might be something Jack Sebastian (talk · contribs) wants to get involved in.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR)  13:30, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Not so much. My time is limited and therefore valuable. I haven't been swayed by any of the arguments presented, and so, being in the minority, I decided to find a better way to spend my time. Since consensus can and does change, I'll just wait for more readers to arrive at my point of view. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:28, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Re [2]Every tweet and appearance Foulkes makes is neither necessary nor appropriate for an encyclopedia article. It's also not obvious to me that phandroid.com is a reliable source. NE Ent 00:04, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

As I stated in the edit summary. Foulkes is currently a professional spokesperson. She is not a higher notability celebrity where her spokesmanship is a minor sidelight. Her spokesmanship is her notability. Thus, the status of her relationship with T-mobile is what makes her notable. Noting that she has sort of resumed active spokesmanship with press events and PSAs is the way to keep her page up to date, IMO.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:30, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Agreed with Tony.  Foulkes' notability stems from her work with T-Mobile, which makes it somewhat strange to me to insist on removing info related to that and then claiming "every tweet and appearance" is being referenced.  As to the phandroid site, I have no comment on its reliability, but unless you want to claim the press event it covered was an elaborate hoax, it verifiably happened, which means the info in the lead about her work with T-Mobile ending in spring 2013 is no longer accurate and requires an update.   Mbinebri  talk ← 04:36, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


##### Third opinion?
Is a third opinion required here and, if so, what exactly is the dispute? Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:05, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

No longer required. NE Ent 09:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Is that the view of both sides of the dispute? Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:05, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
All opinions are welcome, but since you are conceding the argument based on the first response, I am glad someone has restored the content. Further respondents are welcome to attempt to influence the outcome of the debate with continued discussion.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:48, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
It looks like this is resolved now.  Good luck and goodbye. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:40, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Now she's no longer hawking cellphones, suspect she'll never be heard from again...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.51.66.32 (talk) 21:09, 11 October 2014 (UTC) 

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