# Talk:Myth of the clean Wehrmacht

According to the Wiki style manual, the lead "It gives the basics in a nutshell" and "a lead section should contain no more than four well-composed paragraphs". The lead, in this current form is extremely lengthy and covers, in detail, subjects that are again covered in the main body of the article. The lead lacks brevity, and delves into too much detail. 
There is just too much information for someone to glean what the article is about, and if it isn't moved down to an "overview" section, then it needs to be slimmed down significantly. 
Maxq32 (talk) 20:04, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

This is a very long article on a very complicated subject. If you have specific suggestions for what to trim/move into the article body, please feel free to list them. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 20:20, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
I agree the lead length is good. MOS:LEAD suggests a four-paragraph lead for an article of this length, which is about where we are. I would like to tentatively propose cutting the Kramp-Karrenbauer quote. I'm speaking as someone who is not familiar with the body of scholarship on this topic, so our resident experts may know it's due for reasons unknown to me. At the very least, it's strange to see it mentioned in the lead but not the body. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:40, 17 August 2022 (UTC)


### Woah woah woah
The result of that discussion was clearly not move, @UtherSRG: what the hell is going on? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 13:45, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, that move seems incredibly premature. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 17:31, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
@HandThatFeeds: a move review is now open Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2022 October Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:39, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
OK, admin intervention. I moved the article back; there is no consensus to move it, and the close was controversial. UtherSRG, I hope you understand that I am sort of putting a lid on it since leaving this undecided will just cause more heat when we have plenty of light. User:Brigade Piron, if you want to start this all over again, you are welcome to do so, but I think you'll have an uphill struggle that's probably not worth your time. Horse Eye's Back, I get your point, and thank you for opening up the review--but let's not get too personal please. Drmies (talk) 17:33, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi Firefangledfeathers, I removed Kramp-Karrenbauer's quote because it doesn't have anything to do with the myth; if anything, it feeds into it by emphasising the Wehrmacht's bravery. Killing civilians isn't brave, so I don't understand why you believe the comment is relevant here. Stara Marusya (talk) 02:31, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi Stara Marusya. Thanks for giving your reason for removal. I'm not sure the quote feeds into the myth, and I think it's mostly related (though the source does not make this explicit) to the topic. That said, it's weird to have this quote highlighted in the lead and not in the body, and I wouldn't push for it to be in the body either. I removed it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:54, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't see the need to spend three paragraphs and a whole subheading on repeating the arguments of a single source, especially when it's not one that's become common in the scholarly discourse. Eldomtom2 (talk) 22:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

The section contains no analysis of those arguments by other sources, so IMHO the section seems unduly rambling for a GA reviewed page. BusterD (talk) 14:40, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
It can probably be condensed into a single paragraph without really losing anything of substance. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:51, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

It was a war of aggression; planning and waging such a war is a crime against humanity. There never was a clean Wehrmacht once the war was planned, myth or no myth. Grassynoel (talk) 05:22, 20 June 2025 (UTC)

Hard to disagree, but the Wehrmacht carried out acts that would have been criminal even if Nazi Germany hadn't been the aggressor. The Wehrmacht breached multiple parts of both the Hague and Geneva Conventions, of which Germany was a signatory to, and on a vast scale. The fact that a myth claiming that the Wehrmacht, despite serving a genocidal regime, fought a mostly conventional war within the confines of the aforementioned conventions became so commonplace for so long justifies the article. 2A0A:EF40:410:5801:8AA3:F009:7F24:3C1E (talk) 13:38, 20 June 2025 (UTC)