# Talk:James A. Baker (born 1857)

TMI in San Antonio was not founded until 1893 (when Baker was 36). The Handbook of Texas reference says he attended TMI in Austin. This reference indicates the presence of TMI in Austin 1870-1880: http://www.dupontcastle.com/castles/tmi.htm and says the school moved from Bastrop to Austin. Possibly the Austin school moved to San Antonio? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.154.8.94 (talk) 21:46, 12 March 2010 (UTC) 
Likewise, Trinity University was not located in San Antonio when Baker was of college age. In Baker's time, it was located in Tehuacana, TX and moved to Waxahachie in 1902. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.154.8.94 (talk) 21:58, 12 March 2010 (UTC) 

IP person: Great points. It only took eight years to address them. James A. Baker (born 1857), aka Captain Baker, attended another TMI located at the time in Austin. When he attended, enrollment had dwindled to fifty-five students and a few years after he graduated, the faculty quit en masse and accepted positions at the precursor to Texas A & M. But another sign that the school was failing: TMI granted a degree to Baker even though he was a full year short of completing the curriculum. Baker himself questioned the standards at TMI (see the article for references on his college days). I don't have a source to confirm this, but it looked like the TMI in Austin probably shut down. TMI in San Antonio did not adopt its current name until 1926, IIRC.Oldsanfelipe (talk) 16:06, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

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There are four persons in a familial succession who share the name James Addison Baker (unqualified);

James Addison Baker the elder (1821–1895)
James A. Baker, Sr. (1857–1941)
James A. Baker, Jr.
James Baker, III, former US Secretary of Treasury, living
The fourth James A. Baker is James A. Baker, III, the product of an unorthodox choice of naming by the family. As I have noted above, quoting from a full length biography of the second James A. Baker, his given name was James A. Baker, Jr., and name he used until he was about 40 years old, after which he signed his name as and was commonly known as "Captain James A. Baker." Never was he known legally or commonly as "James A. Baker, Sr." 
The MOS:JOBTITLES policy makes clear that a move to "Captain James A. Baker" is not an option. 
The current title is not tenable. MoS#Article titles, headings, and sections states, "A title should be a recognizable name or description of the topic that is natural, sufficiently precise, concise, and consistent with those of related articles. If these criteria are in conflict, they should be balanced against one another." The name "James A. Baker, Sr" is not recognizable for this second Baker, it is imprecise. It creates a consistency with the related article, but with the consequence of giving him the wrong name.
Wikipedia uses fictions for article names, and rarely with a problem. "John Doe (Texas lawyer)" distinguishes the subject from other persons named John Doe. It works because people who understand conventions for naming persons also understand that the person is named "John Doe" and not "John Doe (Texas lawyer). We lack this clarity in the James A. Baker, Sr. article. The name of the article takes the format of an Anglo name, so the reader expects James A. Baker, Sr to be his name. So whatever the title of the article, it should not be "James A. Baker, Sr" any more than it should be "Ralph Baker." They look like names for a person, but neither is the name for this person.
Having rejected the possibility of "Captain James A. Baker," I offer some other options. Are any of these tenable?

James A. Baker (1857–1941)
James A. Baker the younger - Pliny and Hans Holbein have this attached, but were these their names, or something historians did later to keep them straight? In any case it doesn't look like a person's name.
James Addison Baker the younger - This is consistent with the naming of the article for the first James A. Baker.
James A. Baker (second generation)
Are there any other suggestions which would conform to WP policies? Oldsanfelipe (talk) 20:41, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

First off, we would not be using all these commas, per MOS:JR, and a comma is never used before "III", even in a style which would do ", Jr."  Secondly, this is a weird situation because two men used "James A. Baker[,] Jr." during their own lifetimes, and III should really be IV.  The purpose of "Sr." and "Jr." isn't really as part of an "official name" but to indicate a generational succession; the suffixes exist independently of the name. It's normal for someone named "Foo X. Bar Jr." to simply be known as "Foo X. Bar" after his father's death, unless both the father and the son are famous.  So, what the subject used when alive (and when, when they were alive) is basically irrelevant.  "The elder/younger" and "the great[er]/lesser" (Latin major/minor) are similar. Thirdly, we avoid disambiguating by date.  We would typically do it by occupation, but they were all lawyer-politicians.  We shouldn't be applying "the elder/younger" any further than sources actually do it, because it's an archaism that's normally only applied to medieval and earlier persons. And "(second generation)" is long-winded, nor does it resolve the confusion; it would strongly imply that the third gen. is James A. Baker "III" who's really the fourth.I suspect that the current set of names is actually the best we're going to get, because James Baker III calls himself that and so do sources. So we can't just retitle them all I–IV the way we normally would.  I added a clarifying footnote at James A. Baker III. One faint possibility is renaming them all "James A. Baker (b. YYYY)", a solution that has occasionally been applied to other articles (mostly sportspeople who can't be disambiguated by sport, team, or position because of additional collisions, which suggests we need to raise the notability bar for athletes). But this is often resisted (birthdate is usually information someone is looing for, not already possessing). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:46, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
@SMcCandlish:First, I would like to apologize for requesting a move without a discussion. I would have learned something without creating work for administrators. Second, I need to do a better job of explaining what I want to do here.

I only see the need to move one of the four articles: James A. Baker Sr. Explanatory notes would be sufficient for the other three.
The James A. Baker Sr. article needs to be renamed because it attributes to him a name that was not his. My source says that he never called himself "Sr" and nobody else did either.
I am not trying to reform the Baker family's naming practices, just trying to clarify them. Cheers, Oldsanfelipe (talk) 02:36, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
I already addressed this; it doesn't matter whether the subject used the term in life; the Jr/Sr stuff is mostly about how sources treat the subject.  It's unlikely that anyone is still alive who knew that James A. Baker; we're dealing with reader expectations based on modern reading material.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:55, 19 July 2018 (UTC)Most sources uses the "Captain" disambiguator, but it's not a style WP uses. The Texas State Historical Association is going with "Sr." [1] [wrong bio!], and most others use birth dates, also a style that WP avoids, though we have used it sometimes (mostly in "b. 1821" not "1821–1897" style).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:00, 19 July 2018 (UTC); corrected: 13:14, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
The sources are following the conventions that the Bakers used. Captain Baker was born in 1857. Captain Baker was known as ....Jr. before the age of forty and Captain Baker afterward. He was never known as ....Sr and the sources refer to him as Captain Baker. I understand we cannot used "Captain Baker." Oldsanfelipe (talk) 03:49, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
The TSHA article you linked to was the article for the first James A. Baker (b.1821) and the only one who was named ...Sr. The TSHA article uses the first James A. Baker's adult legal name. Oldsanfelipe (talk) 03:49, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Well, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe try proposing "James A. Baker (b. 1857)".  I'm not terribly opposed to it, I just know that such disambiguations have been resisted before, but that that we also do have some pages with such names (mostly in sports). So the resistance is not utterly overwhelming. Given what a weird case this is, an WP:IAR argument can be made.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:12, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
The current article names for JAB1 and JAB2 do not conform to policy. I am making tables for this ball of rubber bands! Oldsanfelipe (talk) 14:03, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

"After the Wall Street Crash of 1929 he was instrumental in avoiding the collapse of banks that were sweeping the nation. The president of South Texas Bank wanted to let two weaker Houston banks fail (Public National Bank and Trust Company of Houston run by Jules Henri Tallichet; and Houston National Bank run by C. S. E. Holland),[19][20] saying that they deserved to do so because management was incompetent."
Inline citations 19 and 20 refer to two Handbook of Texas Online article which only support that these banks were run by Tallichet and Holland, respectively. There are sources which support this bank crash narrative without reference to the two bank presidents. I am inclined to remove these two citations and the references to Tallichet and Holland as they are not helpful in telling the story, and the same sources fail at verifying the story about how Houston leaders reacted to the crash. Thoughts? Cheers, Oldsanfelipe (talk) 14:13, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:James Addison Baker the elder which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 12:32, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

I made several changes to existing citations to the article and adding many new ones. I should have asked about this before I made changes. I do not understand the existing citations as shown in this diff: [5]. As you can see, there were several bare references, and not understanding the existing system for the established citations, I just used the template. Is there anyone who would like to revert to the previous format? If so, please tell me the name of this citation system so I can learn it.  Is there support for allowing me to use a template to make these citations consistent? Thanks, Oldsanfelipe (talk) 16:07, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

I am evaluating the following statement in James A. Baker (born 1857): "After the Wall Street Crash of 1929 he was instrumental in avoiding the collapse of banks that were sweeping the nation. The president of South Texas Bank wanted to let two weaker Houston banks fail (Public National Bank and Trust Company of Houston run by Jules Henri Tallichet; and Houston National Bank run by C. S. E. Holland)...." At the end of this graft are inline citations to articles from the Handbook of Texas Online: [6] and [7]. Each of these articles supports that Tallichet and Holland ran these respective banks, but does not support any of these other claims. Knowing who ran these banks does not help to explain the story, but if I delete these details, per WP:UNDUE, I need to delete the references as well. I am unclear about when it is permissible to delete sourced content. Is this just a problem of obtaining consensus on the talk page? And how long is an acceptable period to wait if there are no comments? Thanks, Oldsanfelipe (talk) 18:07, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Two images would improve the article: a better portrait of Baker and a photo of one of the Baker College buildings at Rice. Thanks, Oldsanfelipe (talk) 19:37, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:James A. Baker (born 1857)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Kingsif (talk · contribs) 18:58, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi, I'm Kingsif, and I'll be doing this review. This is an automated message that helps keep the bot updating the nominated article's talkpage working and allows me to say hi. Feel free to reach out and, if you think the review has gone well, I have some open GA nominations that you could (but are under no obligation to) look at. Kingsif (talk) 18:58, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Kingsif, Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 07:46, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Not much talk activity for a few years, but there were a lot of debates about the page title. I'm not sure "James A. Baker (born 1857)" is that good, either, is it absolutely needed for disambiguation? If he signed as "James Addison Baker", isn't this the COMMONNAME that should be used?
Long story short, Baker's commonname after his father died (when he engaged in his most significant activity) was "Captain Baker." FYI, Captain Baker is the grandfather of James A. Baker III, but the former White House Chief of Staff and Treasury Secretary is the FOURTH person so named in the family sucession. This is the source of confusion in disambiguation. Yes, the current page title is the best we can do. Please refer to the move discussion archive if you believe we should revisit this issue. Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 08:37, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Copyvio check looks clear
Infobox should not list the dozen non-notable relatives that it does. I.e. 'children' should be "6, including James A Baker Jr" or similar; relatives should scrap all but James III.
Also, the infobox and the body text disagree on his siblings.
Sources look good. Article largely sources to one offline biography, so AGF. Most other sources are available and look fine.
Can the City of Houston nav box be collapsed? It's large and Baker isn't actually in it
The two hatnotes of disambigs can probably be condensed to one - everyone called James Addison Baker is already listed at the James Baker disambig. And they all seem to be his relatives, who are linked in the article, anyway.
I would recommend retaining both hat notes. Another James A. Baker was a lawyer with the US justice department, and the second hat note helps to to dissassociate this other person from the James Addison Baker family of lawyers. Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 08:37, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
First two paragraphs of lead have a bunch of cites, which they don't need if all the detail is non-controversial and cited in the article body. (And all of it seems like it should be mentioned further in the article)
I cannot overstress the degree of disambiguation problems with earlier versions of the articles about the first three generations of persons named "James Addison Baker." The articles were an absolute mess. I had to read the whole Sayen biography just to keep these persons straight in my own head. Keeping the citations in the lead will prevent unhelpful edits by persons who don't read the sources. Also, some editors make changes to leads without reading the whole article or whithout reading closely related articles. Please consider the article's past problems with disambiguation. I normally adhere to MOS on leads, but I think making an exception in this case by allowing the citations to stand would keep the article stable and accurate. Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 08:37, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
left for Houston to pursue a law partnership in Houston - no need to repeat
Actually, this whole sentence (In 1872, his father left for Houston to pursue a law partnership in Houston, but leaving without the family for a time) is awkward, and I don't see the need to say he left without family, when it already says he left alone.
From the education sentence, it currently can suggest that his mother was a teacher at a local and prep school that he attended, or that he was taught by his mother and at two schools. It's not clear, and needs adjusting.
He completed his tenure has to be the fanciest way of saying "he quit" ever.
In 1874 was he living in Houston or Austin? They're close to each other, but I doubt he was driving between them to go to college and volunteer with the light guard every day...
A lot of the Houston Light Guard section is about the organization and its other affiliations. Some background on what it was is needed, but I think it gives too much before talking about Baker's involvement. Everything from "William Marsh Rice" to "red coats" could easily be cut.
The Houston Light Guard was more of a social organization than a real military unit. The associations he needed to be chosen and the ones made after he joined laid the groundwork for his career. Perhaps I could make some selective cuts? Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 08:37, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Do we know where he studied law, or got his license?
In the US during the 19th century, the common phrase for breaking into the law profession was "reading law." And lawyers were not licensed. Essentially, lawyers were trained in the mode of tradesmen: you apprenticed to a lawyer and that was studying law. In Baker's case, I have no source telling me that he ever studied law at an institution of higher learning, nor do I have a source telling me that he had a law licence. I do have sources telling me that he went to work for his father's law firm. Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 08:37, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
My mistake. He was licensed in 1881, as stated in the article. Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 12:56, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Remove the "just" from just two years later
Remove extra "the" from and the handling
While William Marsh Rice is related to the subject, the following chunk about his life is excessive and can go - the sentence after it would just need to specify which war to flow.
The native New Englander had arrived in Houston in 1838 and was already the second wealthiest person in Texas by 1860. Rice rejected secession and the Confederate cause, shutting down his Houston operations during the War, while residing and doing business from Cuba and Mexico. However, he profited from the war by shipping Texas goods and supplies over the Gulf through Matamoros, Mexico, where wagon caravans provided ground transportation for Texas freight.
Remove extra "his" from taking his over
Presumably Tom Botts was the deceased Walter's son, but it would be nice to make it clear (both who he was and why Baker took custody of him)
If using Elizabeth Rice's nickname "Libbie", at least establish it next to her full name first so the reader knows it's her
Everything about defending Rice's interests should probably be its own sub-section, as should the murder case
less than three weeks after the devastating hurricane that hit Galveston is completely irrelevant
Patrick, however, was an attorney who pressed a lawsuit challenging the contents of his wife's will, so Patrick had only recently been a chief legal adversary to Rice. doesn't make sense
Rice's death... why are two dates given? (On September 25, 1900 and on September 23, 1900: the lies notwithstanding, he can only have died on one day)
Is there any reason why this image and this image are included?
Please break Beginning in 1905, he was a director of Union National Bank, he organized Commercial National Bank, and after engineering a merger with South Texas National Bank, served as president, and later chairman of the board, of South Texas Commercial National Bank (1914–1926) into multiple sentences for readability
Local banking section should name Baker at least once before using 'he'
While Non-profits probably uses it once too many in the first two sentences
Baker played a supporting role when Alice founded - Alice has never been mentioned before.
Please take a look at my various edits. I acted on most of your comments above. Thanks. Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 13:39, 13 May 2020 (UTC)


### Overall
 On hold Kingsif (talk) 22:23, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
I have answered a few of your questions. Please let me know how you would like me to format my responses. I will make some changes to the article later today. Thanks for your comments, Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 08:37, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Hi @Oldsanfelipe2:, if the comments have all been addressed (I think there's quite a few lower down you might have overlooked?), I just looked over the edits and they seem good - I edited the infobox to remove duplicating his wife in it. I have to say, I was not confused at all about the various James A. Bakers, so I do think you may be overstating the issues. With the articles cleaned up and the information separated, the confusion will no longer exist, no? And with the infobox handily naming the different generations, it's ... obvious? This to the point where you didn't even need to explain to me that James III was actually the fourth: it is written in several of the articles, and is clear enough that I didn't get confused about the different numbers. Over-addressing something like this can become a style/coverage issue, and though it's not too heavy, the explanations could be toned down. Otherwise, I think it's close to passing. Kingsif (talk) 03:10, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
I just returned home after an absense of several weeks. Soon I will take another look at the article and respond to the rest of your comments. Thanks, Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 12:29, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
1. "In 1874 was he living in Houston or Austin? They're close to each other, but I doubt he was driving between them to go to college and volunteer with the light guard every day..."

The source does not say whether Baker lived in Austin or Houston while he attended TMI. People living in the year 2020 might perceive Austin and Houston as being close together, but people living in 1874 would not think of the two cities as being close to each other. Even by train, that was an all-day trip, and I even doubt that there was daily service between the two towns. People did not commute between Austin and Houston in 1874 (or 1900). Perhaps Sayen believed this was obvious and did not need to be stated.
That maybe drives the point home further: he had commitments in two cities, how did he manage it? Kingsif (talk) 03:45, 18 May 2020 (UTC)::Please see edits.Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 11:24, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
2. "A lot of the Houston Light Guard section is about the organization and its other affiliations. Some background on what it was is needed, but I think it gives too much before talking about Baker's involvement. Everything from "William Marsh Rice" to "red coats" could easily be cut." 

I am comfortable with the part about the Houston Light Guard after making the specific cut that you suggested. I *am* open to other selected cuts to this topic provided that it preserves the idea that Baker used it as a social network and a springboard for his career."
Yes, the old boys club part seems clear. Looks good. Kingsif (talk) 03:45, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
3. "Presumably Tom Botts was the deceased Walter's son, but it would be nice to make it clear (both who he was and why Baker took custody of him)"

Please see edit.
4. Question about image.

I inserted the image “Houston map1912.png” to provide context for Baker’s later career. This was a map published in 1912, the same year the Port of Houston opened and the same year the Rice Institute opened. Baker’s influence on transformational events for Houston corresponded with Houston becoming a significant city. If this is inappropriate, I will remove it.
Is there any source explaining all his efforts and the 1912 relevance that could be put in the caption? Otherwise 'he had an impact on the city, here's a picture' still seems tangential Kingsif (talk) 03:45, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Please see edit to caption and new paragraph.Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 11:24, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
5. Broke up long sentence about banking activities.
Please let me know if you have other questions, Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 00:03, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

@Oldsanfelipe2: It's looking good - you mentioned you might look at it further, but if there's nothing more, I'm happy to pass it now Kingsif (talk) 05:33, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
I don't have any other changes in mind. Let me know if you have anything else. Thanks, Oldsanfelipe2 (talk) 20:04, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
 Seems good. Thanks for the work :) Kingsif (talk) 23:39, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

There's a captain Baker in the sea shanty "Sally Brown", at least in some versions of the song. Any connection? PizzaMan ♨♨♨ 19:53, 20 February 2022 (UTC)