# Talk:Dara Torres

I think that allegations of her alleged steroids use should be mentioned in the article. I'm not saying she took steroids; she claims she didn't and has never tested positive for them, but neither has Barry Bonds. 71.114.41.153 (talk) 16:05, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Nothing can be added if it is not cited from a verifiable source. As far as I can tell, no verifiable source has alleged that she used steroids. Rather, she herself has submitted to extensive testing to avoid the charge. Obviously, if you find information in a verifiable source, feel free to add it. Minute Lake (talk) 04:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually Barry Bonds tested positive prior to the year he broke the homerun record. It was just never reported until this year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.249.48.39 (talk) 22:42, 19 October 2008 (UTC) 

I removed a phrase in her 2008 olympic qualifying that said "with her 2-yr-old daughter Tessa watching in the stands".....because it seems a bit over the top. I mean, we can leave such weepiness to American network tv olympic coverage (yech) ......and just stick with Ms. Torres' accomplishments (and not Tessa's), can't we? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.220.188.220 (talk) 08:53, 7 July 2008 (UTC) 

Please don't add anything to the article about Torres using steroids or responding to allegations of steroid use without verifiable sources, a neutral point of view, and without original research, per WP:BLP. Kolindigo (talk) 22:49, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Ms. Kolin, you deleted the information about the USADA pilot program, which appears widely in many sources on the net. What does it take to put this back in, just a simple article reference or do you need more than that?? Also the material about Dara's "secret weapon" being the Resistance Stretching system is clearly visible on the video of Dara speaking (which you deleted in the external ref section). What is going on with your deletions?
I, unlike you am using my real name here, and my email address is publicly listed on my Talk page: croft at lightfield.com William James Croft (talk) 23:12, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:BLP is the Wikipedia policy on Biographies of Living People. You can also read WP:V and WP:CITE for more information on citing sources. To quote from the BLP policy: Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons—whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion, from Wikipedia articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space. Steroid allegations, plus response to allegations (which imply that there were allegations in the first place) in athlete's articles need to be properly sourced or they must be removed immediately. Kolindigo (talk) 23:21, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

The article states that she has a daughter (born in 2006) with husband David Hoffman, yet in the previous sentence it states that she married her second husband Israeli surgeon Iza Sasha (no year stated). Given the structure of the sentence it implies that Dara conceived her daughter with her first husband while married to her second husband. --208.179.153.163 (talk) 16:22, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Most sources say that she's 5'11", not 6-foot. That seems much more likely, considering the tendency of the mainstream media to exaggerate. http://www.womenssportsfoundation.org/Content/Articles/Athletes/About-Athletes/D/Dara-Torres-Olympic-Champion-Ready-for-Round-Five.aspx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.94.42.235 (talk) 13:58, 13 July 2008 (UTC) 
Dara is not currently married to anyone, including David Hoffman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.249.48.39 (talk) 22:44, 19 October 2008 (UTC) 

There is considerable doubts about the validity of miss torre's performances, and it should be noted as such by the article. To completely ignore this very true fact would be intellectual dishonesty. Wikipedia is not a fan site, nor is it a hate site, it is an information site. Miss Torre's records are not above suspicion nor scrutiny. For example Barry Bonds received roman-eyed scrutiny when he broke record after record above age 40, and allegations of possible steroids use was at the time noted in his article, why the double standard for miss Torres? 71.114.13.89 (talk) 18:32, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that the only reason there are doubts is that people are saying that there are; it's all just unsubstantiated rumor. By repeating that rumor, all that is accomplished is making people believe that it is true, regardless of truth. Miss Torres has volunteered for extra testing, she has asked that her blood be kept to be tested WITH ANY FUTURE TESTS. At this point, it seems she has done everything possible to establish her innocence, but there is no way to keep people from gossiping. Keep in mind the important difference between Barry Bonds and Miss Torres: there is evidence that he tested positive. His trainer was indicted for supplying others with steroids. There are numerous allegations on Bonds that come from past cohorts. In the case of Torres, there are doubts because people have raised doubts. I'm not saying it shouldn't be raised (if people are writing about her, it's a part of her story), but I think care should be taken not to just perpetuate gossip. Tristanreid (talk) 15:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"Considerable doubts" there may very well be, but there is no comparison between Dara Torres and Barry Bonds. Barry Bonds long ago admitted to a grand jury that he had used steroids, even if he claimed not to know what the substances actually were. There is also considerable evidence from the BALCO trial that he used steroids. Dara Torres, on the other hand, has always said she has never used steroids, there is no evidence that she is lying, and there isn't even a single person who claims to know of her using steroids. There's nothing linking her to steroids except that some people don't think a 41-year-old can do what she is doing. That may be so (although there have been many "clean" athletes have great success past 40), but unless someone has evidence, the idle speculation doesn't belong here. Jsc1973 (talk) 06:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I see that her home page says she has won 9 olympic medals. But IOC only lists eight.
I removed the silver medal on the medley relay in 88 listed here, as it's not included by IOC, nor is her name among the 4 swimmers listed on the team in our article on the event.
I find it strange that her home page should have this wrong, so I'm suspicious and confused. But until someone can come up with a source that clearly proves the IOC record on her wrong, and can tell which medal they're missing, I think we should leave the number at 8. Shanes (talk) 19:18, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

So far there is no evidence, that she was part of the 4×100 m medley relay team that won the silver medal at the 1988 Olympics. She appeared on the team in heat three of round one of the event on the fourth leg, finishing her 100 m freestyle in 55.75 seconds and a total for the team of 4:10.38, the other three on the team in that round being Betsy Mitchell, Tracey McFarlane and Mary T. Meagher, of which only Tracey McFarlane also swam in the finals. Therefore Torres received a silver medal, but she was not Olympic champion. --Goodgirl (talk) 21:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
All participants in the relay are considered to have won the medal even if they don't swim the final. Those who swim the qualies place the team into the finals. They also save some of the finals swimmers from expending energy in early rounds and risking a slower finals performance. They help put the team into a center lane, and keep it from being "upset" and not making the finals at all, which can and has happened to other countries with contending relay teams (but never to an American team). To claim she did not win the medal is like saying that only starters should get a Super Bowl ring. Relays are a team sport. The IOC is mistaken in this case. It happens... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.142.63.102 (talk) 00:56, 6 May 2009 (UTC) 

I googled Natalie Coghlin (since they are of the same team) to find out who the 40 year old swimmer with a kid was. I clicked a couple of links until I found the Torres article. The steroid testing line is totally ridiculous. I am not going to touch it....just speak my mind.........but why are we including this in an article even if she volunteered for it? This is a irrelavent unless someone has tested positive or has been accused by credible sources. The article is actually pretty good.....and then come a random steroid fact that was not necessary. Are we going to go to Brett Favre's page and state if he has volunteerd to take a steroid test or not?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.117.96.12 (talk) 02:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC) 

I think someone should put up a chart under her picture/name of each medal, event, and year for her career. Kind of weird that this information is nowhere in the article. The kind of chart I am referring to for example is like one on this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asafa_Powell with the color coding for medals under his picture. Most elite olympic athletes wiki pages have this kind of chart. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.34.10.8 (talk) 02:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC) 

Did you note the word show beside the Medal record under the picture in the infobox? --Goodgirl (talk) 08:59, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Dara made a comment about filing her nails so I did the math of how much distance was between gold and silver.
A 50 meter race is 50,000 millimeters and her time was 2407 hundredth of a second. This means she was 20.77 millimeters, or 0.817 of an inch behind.
But Wait, the recorded time difference was 0.01 seconds, but I read the electronic timing equipment measures to at least 0.001 seconds resolution. I also read times are rounded absolute times not relative times. It's technically possible the gold time was 24.064 and Dara's time was 24.065, which when rounded is 24.06 and 24.07. This means the difference in distance might be 10 times less, as small as what you clip off your fingernails.
I hunted a lot trying to find exactly how the timing worked, and could not find any real details. It seems like loosing by 0.01 seconds vs. a tie may depend on how the timing math is done. If you believe the recorded times should be the same if they differ by less than 0.005 seconds, but the way it actually works is based in rounded absolute time, then Dara may have tied for the gold. If rounding of absolute times is used, two swimmers could be as much as 0.009 seconds apart and still get the same recorded time (24.065 and 24.074 both round to 24.07), but conversly, having recorded times of 0.01 seconds different only means the measured difference was something more than zero and less than 0.019 seconds (for example 24.055 and 24.074, after rounding are only 0.01 apart).
By displaying the time via computer, the quick assumption by many people is Dara came in second by 0.01 seconds, when the truth is she may have been nearly 0.02 seconds behind but also may have only been 0.001 seconds (or less) behind.
It would be nice if they published the higher resolution results.
216.184.50.4 (talk) 09:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I disagree that higher resolution would be nice. Opposite I think it would be cruel. Since the Olympic Games in Munich in 1972 the higher resolution of times in swimming is banned. There had been a decision between Swede Gunnar Larsson (4:31,981 min) and US-American Tim McKee (4:31,983 min) in the 400 m individual medley. The Swede was declared the winner, having swum two thousands of a second faster, but voices of protest aroused. Subsequently, the FINA changed the rules and prohibited the publication of finer grained time fractions than one hundredth of a second. They decided to change the rules thus, that in case of identical times of a fraction of 0.01 seconds the competition was ruled a tie and both competitors would be awarded the same medal or place. So there is no means to decide whether the time difference was 0.019 or only 0.001 seconds. --Goodgirl (talk) 00:21, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Dara Torres, like Cameron Diaz, can be included in the Wikipedia article about Hispanics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.146.211.97 (talk) 21:13, 22 December 2008 (UTC) 

Nick jr. website has her as a Hispanic Role Models > [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.213.255.33 (talk) 03:39, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

The personal life section reads like PR written directly by a BP representative. I believe it should be trimmed down greatly or simply removed with only a reference that she is a "spokeswoman" for BP. Wiki is not a free advertising agency for any company and should be protected from this kind of practice. Just my opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.142.63.102 (talk) 01:01, 6 May 2009 (UTC) 

The people editing this article should either a) Be ashamed of themselves and their laxness or complete lack of attention to detail or b) Consider staying out of the editing of Wikipedia business as evidenced by this prominent paragraph almost at the top of the article:

On August 1, 2007, at the age of 34 (just 15 months after giving birth to her first child), she won gold in the 100 meter freestyle at the U.S. Nationals in Indianapolis, her 14th win at these events. She then followed that up on August 4 by twice breaking her own American record in the 50 m freestyle, 26 years after she first set the American record at just 15 years old.

Anybody here not able to count? Looks like it? And why hasn't this been properly edited since by the several people who like to edit this article. I'll leave this all to you, but please get it done and remember: quality control, please! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.183.146 (talk) 19:39, 26 January 2010 (UTC) 

This review is transcluded from Talk:Dara Torres/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 18:13, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 18:13, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

"As a high school junior, she left home": can you give the year?
 Done Clarified that her junior year was 1983–84.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:44, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
"She lowered her initial American record by 1.62 seconds.  Torres has broken or lowered her own American record in the 50-meter freestyle ten times, which is the most by any American swimmer in any event": is uncited; can you give a reference?  I think it would be OK to give a link to the progressive list of records, if that suffices for a reader to verify the statement.
 Done I've added an in-line footnote to USA Swimming's American record progression.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
"Speedo, Toyota and Bloomberg LP": suggest linking these.
 Done Corporate sponsors now linked.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:44, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
"was the first elite swimmer to appear in the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue in 1994": suggest putting the year first, to avoid the misreading that this only refers to 1994.
 Done Tweaked text to clarify that she was the first elite swimmer to pose for the SI Swimsuit Issue, and appeared in the 1994 edition.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:44, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
I see from a couple of reliable sources that there have been rumours about Torres using steroids, though nothing has been proved.  E.g. in an article mostly about Jessica Hardy in the NYT on 7/25/08, I found this: "Doping questions have dogged Torres, who qualified for her fifth Olympics in two individual events and two relays after a six-year hiatus from the sport. // At the United States trials, Torres repeatedly addressed suspicions that she was using performance-enhancing drugs, describing herself as a “clean” athlete who has volunteered to have her blood and urine tested frequently. // The scrutiny that Torres has shouldered is being leveled on the woman who finished 0.57 of a second behind her."  The only mention of this in the article is her volunteering to take drug tests.  I imagine this is a controversial issue; can you say why you don't feel the rumours should be mentioned?
Discussion - Mike, my interpretation of current BLP policy is that Wikipedia does not include unsubstantiated rumors of alleged wrongdoing in BLP articles, regardless of whether such rumors were reported by The New York Times or the Daily Mirror.  Given Torres' completely clean history, including such allegations in the Wikipedia article borders on perpetuating anonymous character assassination.  I raised the issue at WP:BLP/N discussion board in late November 2014, and received consistent advice here.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:44, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
I haven't looked at the sources yet; will do that later. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 18:56, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Sources look good, and no sign of close paraphrasing.  I'll place this on hold. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 22:29, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
@Mike Christie: Please review my changes described above, and let me know if you have any additional reactions, suggestions, comments or questions.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 07:00, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
All the changes look good; I'm passing this.  The BLP discussion you linked to establishes a consensus for not mentioning the steroid charges, so that's fine; can I suggest you add a link to that discussion to the article talk page as a reference for any future editors who work on the article?  Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 20:11, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I see from a couple of reliable sources that there have been rumours about Torres using steroids, though nothing has been proved.  E.g. in an article mostly about Jessica Hardy in the NYT on 7/25/08, I found this: "Doping questions have dogged Torres, who qualified for her fifth Olympics in two individual events and two relays after a six-year hiatus from the sport. // At the United States trials, Torres repeatedly addressed suspicions that she was using performance-enhancing drugs, describing herself as a “clean” athlete who has volunteered to have her blood and urine tested frequently. // The scrutiny that Torres has shouldered is being leveled on the woman who finished 0.57 of a second behind her."  The only mention of this in the article is her volunteering to take drug tests.  I imagine this is a controversial issue; can you say why you don't feel the rumours should be mentioned?  Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 22:29, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Mike, my interpretation of current BLP policy is that Wikipedia does not include unsubstantiated rumors of alleged wrongdoing in BLP articles, regardless of whether such rumors were reported by The New York Times or the Daily Mirror.  Given Torres' completely clean PED testing history, including such allegations in the Wikipedia article borders on perpetuating anonymous character assassination.  I raised the issue at WP:BLP/N discussion board in late November 2014, and received consistent advice here.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 06:44, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

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