# Talk:Horst Wessel

Wessel is only notable for being a Nazi, and for his introduction to Nazi mythology after his death. Sure, his death may have been related to prostitution, but it was also related to Nazis fighting communists. If not for being a Nazi he wouldn't have been known at all, fading into obscurity, a statistic about violent crime in Germany. Him being a Nazi should be given priority in the lead, followed by a mention of the pimping. Clone commando sev (talk) 01:56, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

See above post from 6th June. The modern left-wing have no regard for obvious truths such as this, a truth you quite rightly point out. Because this vile man was a Nazi they throw both academic objectivity and neutrality out of the window. Because, yeah, when someone mentions the name "Horst Wessel," the first thing that comes to anyone's mind is a pimp gangster. Ludicrous. Like Larry Sanger says, these people call the shots on this website, so don't expect it to change. And don't bother pursuing this any further, else you be accused of whitewashing the Nazis (no joke.) 82.37.67.100 (talk) 14:56, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
I very much agree, and struggle to find adequate reasoning, as do the people who are defending its inclusion in the lede. It is a flagrant violation of MOS:LEADBIO, WP:NOTABILITY, and WP:UNDUE. Anyone pretending like allegations of pimping is somehow more significant or notable than his Nazi martyrdom is either POV editing or participating in bad faith. The fact that this has been in the lede for so long is a legitimately troubling sign of the state of this article. 47.219.237.179 (talk) 04:10, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Furthermore, upon examining the change logs, the contentious edit in question was made by an anonymous user who did so boldly, without any discussion, was soon reverted, then re-added by Beyond My Ken. Said edit when then reverted again by about at least a dozen different users, with Beyond My Ken re-reverting the vast majority of them for no valid reason. He then stated the following in this very talk page:
I've reverted your edits, returning the article to the status quo ante, except with the additional citations. Please get a consensus on this page to make the changes you wish to make. To my eye, your suggested changes amount to an attempt to whitewash the character of Wessel, which is the last thing this article (or any article on a Nazi) needs.
in a bizarre attempt to categorize blatant MOS:LEADBIO & WP:UNDUE violation as "attempts to whitewash the character of" a Nazi. This suggests serious POV conflicts from Beyond My Ken as well as an entitled sense of ownership vis-à-vis this article. Ken also immediately started touting this contentious edit as the "latest good version" in edit summaries despite this obviously not being the case. It was a bold edit made without any discussion let alone consensus, and was immediately reverted, only for him immediately defend it as the LGV. This is suspicious behavior, and leads me to suspect bad faith, specifically that they want to put negative material in lead of the article because Wessel was a Nazi martyr. 47.219.237.179 (talk) 23:28, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Yes, by all means, let's take extraordinary steps to ignore citations from reliable sources so as not to sully the good name of a  Nazi martyr. I suggest that you PUT DOWN THE STICK. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if the material is sourced or not. To be placed in the lead of an article, it must comply with WP:NOTABILITY per MOS:LEADBIO, otherwise it violates WP:UNDUE. If you want to mention Wessel's alleged involvement with prostitution within the article body via cited sources, by all means. It does not however belong in the lead. Wessel is known for being a Nazi martyr, not for his alleged involvement with prostitutes.
By your logic, Isoroku Yamamoto should have him labeled as a "frequenter of prostitutes" in the lead since, according to Yamamoto's own wife, he was closer with his favorite geisha than he was her. Or perhaps we should put the fact that Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian and a supporter of animal rights in his article's lead? There are plenty of sources to back that up.
Yet neither of those do, because they would violate the notability clause of MOS:LEADBIO. Stop trying to give undue weight to Wessel's alleged prostitution involvement via awkward, unencyclopedic language kludged into the lead. 47.219.237.179 (talk) 06:05, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Who are you behind the IP number?  Do you have a Wikipedia account, and are you editing with an IP to avoid scrutiny? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:03, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
So not only do you refuse to participate in discussion either here or in the dispute resolution, but your only recourse is to attack my Wikipedia account and demand I be blocked? Can you not provide a shred of logic to either defend your unwarranted reverts or refute my reasoning? You aren't doing yourself any favors here. I have yet to see you provide adequate reasoning for defending content in the lead which violates MOS:LEADBIO. 47.219.237.179 (talk) 21:11, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
I've discussed the issues with good-faith editors before, and I'm willing to discuss it with good-faith editors in the future. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
Your rationale in those discussions has been equally scant and wanting. I'll just take your remark as a concession by you that you're unable to produce sufficient reasoning to justify your edits. 47.219.237.179 (talk) 21:31, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
First time I got a notification here, I do have to ask what your obsession is with referring to a vile Nazi as a pimp and a gangster before all else? Let alone stating that this is what this person is known for? It's absurd to say the least, and I agree with previous statements that it's fine to include such info in the body, but it has no place in the lead. 77.164.171.122 (talk) 21:43, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
@Immanuelle I am still waiting for you to show me where the alleged consensus for the changes you reverted to was formed, per the claim in your edit summary. 47.219.237.179 (talk) 03:22, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
He was not a pimp. That was a slur spread by his Communist rivals after his death. Why is there all this discussion? What he was, was a leader of street thugs who beat up their opponents, then lied about it being self-defense, all with the aim of setting up a Nazi dictatorship in Germany. He was bad enough without making him look worse. 2A00:23C7:E287:E001:74E3:39E6:7C7:74E0 (talk) 12:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)