# Talk:Ibrahim I of Ramadan

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ibrahim I of Ramadan/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Nominator: Aintabli (talk · contribs) 22:59, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
Reviewer: Borsoka (talk · contribs) 15:03, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it well written?
A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct: 

B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation: 

Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?
A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline: 

B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose): 

C. It contains no original research: 

D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism: 

Is it broad in its coverage?
A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic: 

B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style): 

Is it neutral?
It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each: 

Is it stable?
It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute: 

Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content: 

B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions: 

Overall:
Pass or Fail: 

Comments

... a Turkmen chieftain of the Yüregir tribe... Why not "...a chieftain of the Turkmen Yüregir tribe..."? Was he one of the many chieftains of the Yüregir? When?
There isn't much available information if there were other chieftains of the same tribe. Replaced with the version you suggested verbatim as it's much clearer. Aintabli (talk) 03:40, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Could you add more information about south(eastern) Anatolia, the Yüregir, the Uchok and their neighbors (who are mentioned in the article), and also about the position of the Mamluks of Egypt in Anatolia in the period?
Mentioned that the region was initially under the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, which was gradually absorbed by the Mamluk Sultanate with the help of the Turkmen nomads in the region. Clarified that there were two major confederations. Aintabli (talk) 21:06, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
He was referred to as Ramadan al-Turkmani al-Ujoghi (رمضان التركمانى الاوجعى) by contemporary Arab historians. Is this necessary. If yes, I would move it to a footnote.
I had originally created an article on his father, but there was barely anything on him to merit a separate article, so I speedy-deleted my creation and transferred the content here. With that said, I have included that sentence in a footnote.
...would eventually be granted... Why future-in-the-past? When?
My poor writing skills... Fixed. Aintabli (talk) 03:40, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
...Emir of the Turkomans... Why is the title italicised? Could you provide some information about this office? (Perhaps within the framework of general information about southeastern Anatolia requested above.)
Mentioned that the first known person to hold the office was the Dulkadirid ruler Qaraja as part of the new paragraph dedicated to the history of the region prior to the Ramadanids. Aintabli (talk) 21:06, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
...by the Mamluk Sultanate... Perhaps "by the Mamluks/Mamluk Sultan"?
... following the Dulkadirid leader Zayn al-Din Qaraja's (r. 1337–53) dismissal in 1352 due to a rebellion he joined Rephrase it for flow. ("after his predecessor, the Dulkadirid leader Zayn al-Din Qaraja (r. 1337–53) was dismissed for disloyalty...)
 Done
Ramadan is thought to have died before June 1354, when Ibrahim arrived at the Mamluk sultan's court in Damascus with a gift of a thousand horses, securing the position his father had received. I would change the whole sentence: 1. Ibrahim's mission should be mentioned both because he is our "main character" and for chronological reasons; 2. Ramadan's death could be mentioned thereafter. Why "is thought"? If this is a scholarly PoV, name the scholar for attribution.
Changed to In June 1354, Ibrahim arrived at the Mamluk sultan's court in Damascus with a gift of a thousand horses, securing the position his father had received. Ramadan likely died before Ibrahim visited Damascus.
Ramadan likely died before Ibrahim visited Damascus. Visited or reached?
Considering the amount of available sources that provide details on this period of history, this is a very minute distinction, and none of the sources appear to clarify that. In any case, I ended up merging that and the previous sentence when addressing your other suggestions. Aintabli (talk) 23:19, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
According to the Ottoman historian Aşıkpaşazade, Ramadan issued protection for his Armenian subjects upon gaining control of Adana, Tarsus, and Missis. This obviously happened beore Ramadan's death. How did he gain control of the three cities? Make it clear that Aşıkpaşazade is a 15th-century Ottoman historian. What does "issued protection" mean?
Removed as it appeared somewhat out of scope. Could be added to the article on the dynasty.
Further details about his life and reign are unknown as the Ramadanids came into the spotlight with his son Ibrahim's rule. I would delete it or only state that Ibrahim is the first Ramanid ruler whose life is well documented/sourced.
Stated that Ibrahim is the earliest well-documented ruler. Aintabli (talk) 23:43, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
Ibrahim failed to maintain his authority over the neighboring Bozok tribal confederation, which prompted the Mamluk sultan to recognize the Dulkadirid ruler Ghars al-Din Khalil (r. 1353–86) as a legitimate ruler, although Khalil was in frequent discord and occasionally at war with the Mamluks. 1. We left Ibrahim somewhere in Egypt in the previous section. Did he return? 2. What happened exactly? Did the Bozok rise into rebellion or refused to obey him? Did Ibrahim fight them and was defeated? 3. As a legitimate ruler of what? 4. Was or had been "in frequent discord and occasionally at war"?
Sources do not mention a specific clash, but Ibrahim was simply unable to consolidate his authority over the neighboring confederation. So, the Mamluks are forced into recognizing the "unofficial" head of the Bozok confederation.
The Mamluk sultan was thus forced to recognize the Dulkadirid ruler Ghars al-Din Khalil (r. 1353–86) as a legitimate ruler, who was frequently at war with the Mamluks. Legitimate ruler of what? A or the legitimate ruler? The reference to his wars with the Mamluks is out of context, do you refer to his frequent rebellions against the Mamluks as the Turkmens' ruler?
Removed who was frequently (...). "The Dulkadirid ruler" should fix the issue. This also aligns with the source much better. Aintabli (talk) 23:19, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
Aiming to capture Sis from the Mamluks, Ibrahim joined an alliance with Khalil in his rebellion. We should be informed first about Khalil's rebellion before reading that Ibrahim joined him. Why did he want to capture Sis? (I assume it was an important center of power/commerce/...).
Expanded on the background of the rebellion.
Ibrahim joined an alliance with Khalil in his rebellion aiming to capture the city of Sis from the Mamluks. Who wanted to capture Sis, Khalil or Ibrahim? Perhaps, "Khalil attacked the Mamluk city Sis and Ibrahim joined his rebellion."
It was Ibrahim. Changed aiming to as he aimed. Aintabli (talk) 23:19, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
Was Ibrahim among the Turkmen lords rallying to Timurbay?
No.
...with forty men... 1. I think "each with forty men". 2. Some explanation for the number ("as it was required by customary law/...")
Reworded. The whole embassy was forty people. It is not indicated anywhere that this was customary.
...arrested and raided them... Raided?
Would robbed work?
...Timurbay's attempt at raiding them elicited a major backlash that resulted in his defeat and capture in the passage of Bab al-Malik Shorten the text and provide a reason for his attack: "the greedy/suspicious/... Timurbay attacked them but they defeated and captured him in the passage of Bab al-Malik..."
 Done
In order to gather intel on the disloyalty of the Turkmens in the region... Rephrase (Maybe, "Suspicious about the Turkomens' loyalty,...")
 Done
Introduce Yunus al-Nawruzi.
He was an emir.
When the plans of the Turkmens to attack Aleppo and Malatya surfaced... Were there such plans? Ibrahim was among the Turkmens?
Not explicitly stated, but here "Turkmens" refers to the political bloc.
Shorten Yunus al-Nawruzi to Yunus or al-Nawruzi when he is mentioned for the second, ... times.
 Done
The Mamluk army vanquished the Dulkadirid, Ramadanid, and various other local forces on 6 July 1381. Where?
Marash
Ibrahim relayed his apology to the Mamluk sultan to the governor of Sis, Toruntay. The Mamluk sultan forgave Ibrahim. I do not understand the first sentence. I would consolidate the two sentences.
 Done
...was recognized... As?
Acknowledged better fits this.
...he was given the title na'ib of Adana Only the title, or was he appointed as the na'ib? Why?
Appointed could work. This was surely not titular.
The Mamluk army led by emir Yalbugha started marching north on 27 December 1383. I assume the army departed to attack Ibrahim (and possibly other rebellious Turkmen chieftains).
Clarified.
The Mamluk army led by emir Yalbugha started marching north on 27 December 1383. When he reached the passage in Bagras, Yalbugha stationed the na'ibs of Aintab and Bagras there to guard the path to Bab al-Malik. Aleppine Mamluk emirs Timurtash and Guchlu seized control of the bridge in Missis over the Ceyhan River before Yalbugha reached there on 9 January 1384 observing that the bridge was significantly damaged by the Turkmens but still allowed the army to pass. Yalbugha approach north to Sis. Several local Turkmens pleaded for mercy through embassies, which Yalbugha accepted. Shorten significantly. What is relevant, that Yalbugha lead the campaign to Anatolia, forcing several Trukmens into submission.
 Done Aintabli (talk) 03:55, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
On 11 January, the main portion of the Mamluk forces arrived in Missis. Portion? I assume Missis is a town or village near Adana. Clarify it.
Tweaked wording and mentioned the location of Missis.
Ibrahim evacuated Adana... We were not informe in the previous sentences that he had seized Adana.
in 1383, he was given the title na'ib of Adana. This is the previous mention of Adana. He was granted control of Adana by the Mamluks. Aintabli (talk) 03:21, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
Fix references 1 and 3 (Sümer was not published in 2007, but in 1995, according to the Bibliography). Borsoka (talk) 16:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
Actually, I appear to have used the wrong volume number in the citation template. I have now corrected it. Aintabli (talk) 20:49, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
@Aintabli: when do you think you will have time to address my above comments? Borsoka (talk) 02:08, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Borsoka, this is actually the first time I'm seeing your comments. I remember checking this page right around when it was first created, and it didn't have any comments then (it seems you added them an hour later). I've been inactive lately, so I forgot to check this page again. Just wanted to clarify that I wasn't ignoring the review. I will get right to your suggestions. Sorry for the completely unintended wait. Aintabli (talk) 03:31, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
No problem. Ping me when you are ready. Borsoka (talk) 06:39, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
What do you think when you will be able to address the above issues? I put the article on hold for a week before making a decision. Borsoka (talk) 02:14, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
Apologies for the delay. @Borsoka Please let me know if I have to make any further changes, if I have missed some of your suggestions or didn't address them adequately. Aintabli (talk) 21:09, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
...was Beg of Ramadan... Clarify that Ramadan is in Anatolia.
 Done
...by June 1354 to 1383 Why not "from 1354 to 1383"?
The problem is it is unclear when he actually rose to the throne. Although he likely became the ruler the same year he traveled to Damascus, all of this would be my assumption and is not supported by the sources as far as I can tell. If a specific source names that he became the ruler in 1354 (as opposed to 1353), it would be more appropriate tweak this part. With the current sources, "by" is the safest wording. Aintabli (talk) 19:19, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
It is ungrammatical. Borsoka (talk)
Okay then, I changed by to from and June 1354 to circa 1354. Aintabli (talk) 06:09, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
Following his father Ramadan's death, Ibrahim arrived in Damascus and honored the Mamluk Sultan, securing the regional authority the Mamluks had granted Ramadan. This should be rephrased to contain information on Ibrahim: "He was on a diplomatic mission at the court of the Mamluk sultan in Damascus when his father Ramadan died. The sultan appointed him as his father's successor."
Tweaked wording.
Ibrahim made a new attempt to realize his ambition to capture Sis. This restored the state of war between the Ramadanids and the Mamluk Sultanate. After fleeing from the Mamluks for some time, Ibrahim was caught by the Mamluk na'ib of Sis. Shorten radically the two sentences. Borsoka (talk) 03:52, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
Removed the second sentence and shortened the first sentence. Merged the last sentence you've quoted here and the next sentence mentioning his execution. Aintabli (talk) 21:14, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
Image review

The sole image in the article is a relevant map of the region. It is verified by reliable sources.
Source review

All sources are relevant academic works.
Either mention the place of publication, or delete it at each source.
Added the rest.
Either add or delete oclc at each source.
I'm using a the relevant template for the third listed source (Sümer), so I have to tweak that template to add OCLC. I can't find the OCLC of Yiğit's book. Aintabli (talk) 21:14, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
Does this link [1] help?
Pages are missing from references to Sümer 2007.
I am accessing that source online, so I don't know the specific pages that each piece of information comes from. I can include a page range in every ssn at best. Aintabli (talk) 19:21, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
Check and fixt isbn for Har-el.
 Done Aintabli (talk) 21:14, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
Quote the texts from the cited books verifying references 2, 4 and 5. Borsoka (talk) 04:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
2 (Sumer): Yüregir boyuna mensup (...) Bu boy içinde Ramazan adlı bir beyin (Belonging to the tribe of Yüregir (...) In this tribe, a chieftain named Ramazan)
2 (Har-El): 'Aşık Paşa-zade records that Yüregir Ramadan Beg (..)
The sentence in the article also writes that he was head of the Uchok. Is this verified by any of the two sources?
Har-El: Another Turkman confederation, this one of Üçok clans, was formed in Cilicia. Associated with the paramount clan of Yuregir" and attached to its chief through their respective begs were a number of Turkman confederate clans of Üçok origin
Yiğit: Üç Ok Türkmenlerini etrafında toplamak suretiyle (By way of gathering the Uchok Turkmens around him)
I adjusted and split the refs for this specific info. Aintabli (talk) 06:27, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
4: 753’te (1352) Dulkadırlılar’ın başı ve Elbistan Emîri Karaca Bey’in Memlük Sultanı el-Melikü’s-Sâlih’e karşı bir isyana katılması sonucu Türkmen emirliğinden azledilmesi üzerine bu göreve Ramazan getirilmiştir (In 753 (1352), following the dismissal of the head of the Dulkadirids and emir of Elbistan Qaraja Beg from the Turkmen Emirate due to his participation in a revolt against the Mamluk Sultan al-Malik al-Salih, Ramazan was appointed to this position.)
5: but this line of rulers in Cilicia, with its capital in Adana, only comes into historical focus with Ramadan Beg's son Sarim al-Din Ibrahim I Aintabli (talk) 23:05, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
@Borsoka, I think I have addressed most of your suggestions. I couldn't add the OCLCs to all of the sources, because one of them depends on a template, and I couldn't find the code for another publication. I can't add page numbers to Sumer 2007 as I'm accessing it online, so I can only include the whole page range for the encyclopedia entry with the citations and not a specific page number. At best, I can safely include the first page of this range with the very first ref of Sumer 2007 as the cited info appears in the first two sentences of the source. Let me know if you want me to make additional changes. Aintabli (talk) 23:27, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
@Borsoka: Let me know if I missed any of your latest suggestions. Aintabli (talk) 06:32, 28 November 2024 (UTC)