# Talk:Hawker Hunter

In the lead it says that the Black Arrows "looped a record-breaking 24 examples in formation". What does that mean? A formation flying 24 loopings? A formation of 24 Hunters flying one looping? Something totally different? I'm not a native speaker, but I think I know the English language well enough to safely claim that "Someone looped several examples." is not something the average reader has a chance of understanding. Please use everyday language, or explain in further detail, or wikilink the jargon words.
On a side note: In good Wikipedia tradition I'm going to criticise the mention of some "record-breaking" without a quoted source.
--BjKa (talk) 12:27, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

It's a loop involving 24 Hunters - and it is cited in the body of the article (to [1].)Nigel Ish (talk) 12:32, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

The following was placed on my talk page re: this edit to the article. I can barely understand it, so I'm placing it here if any one wants to follow up on it. Thanks. BilCat (talk) 22:55, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
Hello
I made the modification of the "Hawker Hunter" page regarding Operation Atlante.This operation is considered one of the most important professional achievements of the FACH because of the need to move across the Atlantic Ocean practically without stopping and at the limit of fuel, due to the urgency of facing the border threats that Chile had at that time, particularly from Peru.
Unfortunately, I do not know how to operate the reference system on the page and most of the sources are in Spanish.
Here is the link from FACH about the operation, which is very brief. The most complete references are in books.
Sorry for my limited English
"OPERATION ATLANTE.
One of the most notable air missions in the history of the Air Force was Operation Atlante to bring six Hawker Hunter aircraft in flight from England, without refueling in the air, across the Atlantic Ocean.
Aviation Group 7, supported by Aviation Group 10, was assigned the mission of moving the six planes from England, in two flocks of three. The historic cruise began at Lyncham Base in London.
The first stages involved flying over the airspace of Great Britain, France and Spain, making the first technical stops in Seville and the Canary Islands and then crossing to Africa.
The next stops were in Dakar (Senegal), Monrovia (Liberia) and Ascension Island, in the middle of the Atlantic.
From Ascension Island they flew to Recife, Brazil and the last stages of the journey were Rio de Janeiro, Asunción and Antofagasta.
The first three planes arrived at Los Cerrillos Air Base on January 26, 1974. A month later, the same journey of nearly 12 thousand kilometers would be repeated with the last three aircraft, successfully completing an outstanding teamwork of Chilean pilots and mechanics".
https://www.fach.mil.cl/atlante.html
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Hmsdisraeli (talk • contribs) 

This is listed as a "good article" that had multiple inline "citation needed" tags (in the "Aircraft on display" section dated February 2020) that would cause the article to be delisted. I hid these entries and if someone wishes inclusion please provide citations.  --  Otr500 (talk) 13:41, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

"On 16 March 1953, the first production standard Hunter F.1, fitted with a single 7,600 lbf (34 kN) Avon 113 turbojet, made its first flight. The first 20 aircraft were, in effect, a pre-production series and featured a number of "one-off" modifications such as blown flaps and area ruled fuselage"
Not really clear. So the first production standard unit on the 16th of March is the one that follows these 20 " preproduction" units, making it actually the 21st aircraft? 
And if the other units had major alterations such a area ruled fuselages and blown flaps, wouldnt they be closer to prototypes than "preproduction" units? An area ruled fuselages would almost make it an entirely different aircraft, certainly a different model. So what are they preproduction models of? Doesn't that usually mean it's built to conform to the expected production model, except it's not built on production tooling and is more or less fabricated by hand like a prototype, and may not be fully compatible with the production models? Like what were these radically altered Hunters called? Were they just all called "Mk.0" even though some were area ruled, some weren't, some had blown flaps, some didn't, etc? It just seems unusual.
And if they knew about area ruling and went as far as to design and built flying examples before production even started, why was this never adopted for production models? Even if tooling was too far advanced to change it at that point they could have done so for subsequent models. Was it not successful? Reduced the fuel capacity too much for the marginal increase it gave a transonic aircraft? Is it impossible to make a Hunter a supersonic aircraft with area ruling and more power? 2600:1000:B15E:F4AF:0:67:E254:7601 (talk) 22:48, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

Using Mason as a source he states that the first 20 aircraft 'were to be regarded as development machines', this was due to unavailability of the prototypes and that flight trials were still needed. The wording 'in effect, pre-production aircraft' is used in the article. I read that as not officially regarded as pre-production aircraft and that they were Mk I production aircraft.
The area rule trial involved one aircraft (article says 'one-off' modifications), bulged fairings were added to the rear fuselage, no change to the basic airframe. Results showed no improvement in performance. Other trials included wing fence positioning, hydraulic controls, wing fuel tanks (internal), underwing fuel tanks, gun firing and blown flaps.
I don't have the cited source but what is written agrees with Mason. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 08:55, 28 May 2025 (UTC)