# Talk:My Immortal (song)

The lead says something about a 1997 demo which is not mentioned in the body. There are demos mentioned, but it is not dated. What am I missing here? Is this possible to source? mftp dan  oops  14:33, 19 February 2025 (UTC)

U-Mos, you keep reinstating unsourced content in the personnel section when separating the credits. Again, you're engaging in WP:OR by adding Hodges to the band version, as there is no source stating he was part of it. You're also engaging in WP:OR by removing a keyboard credit in one version. There is no cited source supporting this edit you've made. The recording section does not state who apart from Lee, Moody and Campbell performed on the band version; we add the session drummer and bassist to the credits because they are the only drummer and bassist credited on the album liner notes, and the band version uses drum and bass. The simple list is appropriate with the sourced specifics in parentheses. Lapadite (talk) 14:56, 9 May 2025 (UTC)

Considering you've now removed a source from the section in order to claim there's no source, and introduced a blatant OR point in asserting Hodges isn't part of the band version (it's part of the album sessions, with no indication anywhere it had different personnel), I'm going to treat that with the respect it warrants and revert. Please stop edit warring and ignoring sourced information WP:JUST because you've decided you don't like it. U-Mos (talk) 15:46, 9 May 2025 (UTC)
U-Mos, you're stating exactly what you've done several times and continue doing: you changed the stable and sourced personnel section and have been been edit warring with unsourced content, which is unconstructive. Unlike you, I collaborated by leaving your formatting change, making the proper fixes, and adding editor notes for context and to prevent future confusion, which you again removed, showing you have no intention of collaboration. There is no source supporting your addition of Hodges to the band version and removal of Hodges from the album version (which, as cited, is the Origin demo version, in which he is credited); and there is no source supporting your removal of keyboards from Lee on the band version. Also, the album liner notes has been the cited source for credits; the extra source you added doesn't support your edit, it doesn't say who else was part of the band version, and doesn't mention Hodges.
And you addressed nothing of the issues I stated in my first post. You've shown a refusal to listen and collaborate, and you are repeatedly disrupting the stable section with unsourced changes based on your WP:OR and pov. Your edit will keep getting reverted because WP policy trumps your pov and unsourced content does not belong in an article: WP:V WP:OR WP:STICKTOSOURCE. Lapadite (talk) 06:56, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
Let's be very clear:
This source states that Lee and Moody were the only people present for the album recording. It does therefore explicitly support my edit to the album version personnel. Would you like to explain why you are continually removing that source, and adding another member to that personnel list?
The top line of the section states (as it always has) that the personnel is adapted from the Fallen liner notes, and it is sourced in the article that the band version is from the album sessions (and appears on some pressings of the album). The liner notes thus support my edit to the band version. For some reason you have decided to remove Hodges' name from this version, despite being the only pianist credited on the album. Why do you think that adapting the album liner notes is okay for every other band member, but not this one? If you think that the album credits aren't applicable for the band version for some reason, then why is this section based on them in the first place?
If you're demanding a direct source for every member on every instrument for every recording, then we'll just have to delete this section because we don't have that. Frankly I'd rather that than the misleading conflation I found at the article, or the blatantly false version you are reverting back to. Up to you. U-Mos (talk) 17:15, 10 May 2025 (UTC)
Like I said above: As sourced, the album version is the demo recording from Origin, and in the Origin liner notes Hodges is credited with keyboards as well. That MTV source you linked quotes Lee as saying the album recording was her and Moody, but it may be a decontextualized quote as she stated in another cited interview that the album version included both her and an old keyboard player (which would be the one also credited on Origin).
I've not seen one source state who else, apart from Lee and Moody, recorded the "band version" (which is the radio single). I've never seen a reliable source state that Hodges recorded on the "band version", including either Lee or Moody say that. Further, the Fallen liner notes are for the album tracks, which includes the album version. The "band version" is the radio single, not the album track, hence the separation we've been discussing. Therefore, Hodges being credited on the Fallen liner notes can't be transferred to the "band version", which is a separate non-album recording used for the radio single, as cited. We would need a source stating that he recorded on the "band version"/radio single in order to include him there. WP:OR is just assuming he was part of it because he was part of the album version, which is an old demo recording from 2000. Plus, this is solely supporting context, but Hodges is reported to have left when the album was recorded, which further supports the need for a source stating if he recorded on the "band version"/radio single.
This is the issue caused by the separation of album version and band version in the personnel section, which I agreed with for the sake of compromise. Because we don't have a reliable source stating who exactly was part of/did what on the "band version", having anyone but Lee and Moody credited on it here is WP:OR (where we have to make our own assumptions). Imo, the simple list it had before largely avoided this issue by not explicitly stating who is part of what version, with the exception of the string arrangement. There's an old saying on WP, I believe originally stated by Jimmy Wales, that (paraphrasing) limited information is better than misinformation.
As others have not commented on this, if you want more input for a consensus ask a music wikiproject or start a Rfc. Lapadite (talk) 12:16, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
I'm leaning towards removing the section now. I hadn't seen the other source where Lee alludes to Hodges in relation to the original recording, and it's certainly true we don't have as much clarity as we would like across the board. I really don't see any benefit in retaining a combined personnel for what we do know are entirely independent recordings, with multiple personnel differences (through the expanded instrumentation of the band version, if nothing else). That's overtly confusing for readers.
And again, if we can't say Hodges is on the band version, then we can't say that DiCosmo or Freese are, either. So the only other alternative to removal would be to combine the list, without any drummer or bassist named. U-Mos (talk) 19:06, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
I don't mind that. It's likely others would re-add the section out of expectation of having one in the article, so this would benefit from a consensus.
I agree more with the alternative: like this, combine the list again but remove the drummer and bassist names and add an editor note stating that no other person is verified to have been part of the recording. I made the edit and added "(album version)" next to Hodges' credit. Lapadite (talk) 02:51, 25 May 2025 (UTC)