# Talk:Frederick Hinde Zimmerman

Hi, I'm copyediting this article because of a request at WP:GOCE.  It's my practice to be WP:BOLD, and to ask questions that come up in the process on the talk page.  See below:

Early life
Much of the problems with this section are with the timeline of events, so I moved things around a bit.
Is it necessary to mention that Zimmerman was born at the end of the Civil War?  His birthyear should establish the era, right?  If not, how about: "Frederick Hinde Zimmerman was born on October 17, 1864, on his family farm in the Mount Carmel Precinct, Wabash County, Illinois."  (BTW, Z and I share the same birthday, except that he's 100 years older.  Please don't add that to the article; enough people will know how old I am from reading this talk page!) ;)
Zimmerman initially grew up in Mount Carmel, but when his mother Belinda Hinde died unexpectedly, his father sent him to live with family in Ohio.  The phrase "initially grew up in" is too informal.  Do we know the year of his mom's death?  It would help the timeline problems if we did.  How about: "Zimmerman lived in Mount Carmel until the unexpected death of his mother Belinda Hinde in 18-- [or when Zimmerman was - years old], when his father sent him to live with family in Ohio."
Based on an entry in Edmund C. Hinde's diaries, Zimmerman's mother probably died from an overdose of morphine.  A few months before the death of his mother, Zimmerman's uncle, judge Charles H. Constable died of a morphine overdose like his mother.  You need to tell us who Ed Hinde is.  (I know that writing about a large family can be complicated; I come from one myself, so I know.)  I ask this because I don't have access to Hinde's diaries: Does he state clearly that Belinda died of a morphine od?  If so, you need to state it.  I think that the second sentence should be in a note.  How about: "According to the diaries of Zimmerman's uncle Edmund C. Hinde, Zimmerman's mother probably died from an overdose of morphine.  A few months earlier, Zimmerman's uncle Judge Charles H. Constable also died of a morphine overdose."
Shortly after the death of his mother Belinda, Zimmerman's older brother Charles died at the age of 4 in Wabash County, Illinois.  I'm assuming that Charles died in the Wabash County section of the family farm?  If so, you should state it, and exactly where it was really isn't important.  If it is, though, you need to state why.  How about: "Earlier that year, Zimmerman's older brother Charles died at the age of 4."
The text makes it seem like Zimmerman lived with family until his father's marriage until the remarriage in 1875, and he moved in with his father and stepmother in 1879.  Do you mean that the remarriage occurred in 1875, and he moved back in 1879?  If so, this is how it should read: "Zimmerman's father married Emma Harris in 1875; at the age of 14, Zimmerman returned to the family farm to live with his father and stepmother in 1879."
Why are Judge Parker's activities important?  Did the store fail because of it?  If so, tell us why; if not, I suggest removing the sentence or put it in a note to establish context of the times. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:22, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Farm and family life
What year was the picture of Peter Zimmerman taken?  If we knew, we could add the phrase "shown here in --" to the caption.
Please mention when the hotel was built.  You discuss it further below, so that's all you need.
Is it really necessary to name his cows?  I'm not sure it's notable, unless it was unusual for farmers to name their livestock.
Later business ventures
First sentence: It was also during that time...  What time are we talking about?  His early marriage?  His time in the fraternity?  A date would be best.
More timing issues: did Z invest in the Wabash Bull-Frog Mines Company first and then co-own it?  Notice that I did some more moving around, including consolidating the first and second paragraphs, this time to keep the concepts together.  When did Z invest in his father's mines?  Again, if we had a timeframe (i.e., span of years), that would be great.
First sentence in second paragraph: What time was that?  Again, we should know exactly when he was involved in the business.
Is it correct to state that Garrett managed the family store?
Grand Rapids Hotel
Exactly how much did Z inherit from his uncle?  If we knew, we could actually adjust for inflation.
I removed the first sentence in the last paragraph because it was redundant; you mention the hotel's location earlier.
Death
Why is it important that Z died the opening day of the Mt. Carmel fair?  Did he attend it?  If he didn't, I don't see how it's notable, so I suggest removing the reference.
I always ce the lead last, so I'll get to that in the next couple of days.  Gotta go to bed! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:03, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Ok, so I've finished this copyedit.  No notes about the lead.  I hope that what I've done and my notes were helpful.  Let me know how I can further assist. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:16, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Frederick Hinde Zimmerman/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Jackhynes (talk · contribs) 15:53, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
I'll have a go at this review. Just looking through it now. Cheers, Jack (talk) 15:53, 27 February 2013 (UTC)


### Review by Jack
Initial read through looks great. The prose need to be tightened here and there but otherwise it looks to be in great shape.

Lead
Serial comma needed in second sentence.
Changed.
I would combine two sentences in the first paragraph to read: Zimmerman's farm, originally purchased by his grandfather Thomas S. Hinde from the federal government in 1815, included the Grand Rapids Dam, Hanging Rock, and Buttercrust.
Changed.
There is no citation in the article for Buttercrust, what/where is it?
Changed. Added information.
There is no citation or mention in text of his grandfather buying the land from the federal government in 1815.
Changed.  Added information.
1 and 14 written in full
Changed.
He died unexpectedly from complications of a broken hip that he suffered near the Grand Rapids Hotel in 1924, fours years after the hotel opened, after falling out of his Model T automobile.[1] The sentence should be fragmented, it's a mouthful at the moment. The reference should be in the body of the text not in the lead. There should be no information in the lead not already mentioned and referenced in the body.
Changed.
The hotel was burned to the ground during the summer of 1929, five years after Zimmerman died, by Glenn Goodart, then manager of the hotel, by dropping a blowtorch in the basement. Split sentence, too many commas
Changed.
The hotel was not rebuilt due to a lack of funds and the onset of the Great Depression three months after it was burned down by Goodart. → The hotel was not rebuilt due to a lack of funds and the onset of the Great Depression
Changed.
Early years
Frederick Hinde Zimmerman was born in the Mount Carmel Precinct, Wabash County, Illinois on October 17, 1864, towards the end of the American Civil War on his family farm. → Frederick Hinde Zimmerman was born on his family farm in the Mount Carmel Precinct, Wabash County, Illinois on October 17, 1864, towards the end of the American Civil War.
Changed.
He was the second child of Jacob Zimmerman and Belinda Hinde. His father was the Honorable Jacob Zimmerman, an Illinois congressman and politician from a wealthy family, and his mother was Belinda Hinde, a member of the prominent Hinde family and the daughter of Rev. Thomas S. Hinde, the founder of Mount Carmel. →  He was the second child of the Honorable Jacob Zimmerman, an Illinois congressman and politician from a wealthy family, and Belinda Hinde, a member of the prominent Hinde family and the daughter of Rev. Thomas S. Hinde, the founder of Mount Carmel.
Changed.
His father owned newspapers in Marshall, Illinois and in Mount Carmel, Illinois, Serial comma
Changed.
Morphine Wikilink
Changed.
Zimmerman's mother probably died from an overdose of morphine that may have resulted from an addiction to the drug developed during the Civil War. A few months before the death of his mother, Zimmerman's uncle, judge Charles H. Constable died of a morphine overdose like his mother that was the result of an addiction to the drug and hard liquor that he developed during the Civil War. → Zimmerman's uncle, judge Charles H. Constable, and then his mother died from morphine overdoses that may have resulted from an addiction to the drug developed during the Civil War.
Changed.
Write 4 as four
Changed.
In 1879 after his father's marriage and election Zimmerman returned to the family farm in Wabash County, Illinois to live with his father and step mother at the age of 14. → In 1879, aged fourteen, he returned to the family farm in Wabash County, Illinois to live with his father and step mother.
Changed.
In 1883, at the age of 19, Zimmerman and his cousin Harry Hinde were invited by Zimmerman's uncle Edmund C. Hinde to move to Fort Smith, Arkansas, where Hinde lived following his return from the California Gold Rush,[12] to gain business experience by running a grocery store, which they did from 1883 to 1886 Fragment sentence
Changed
Interestingly, this period in the history of Fort Smith, Arkansas has been memorialized in the novel and movies based on the novel True Grit. → Interestingly, this period in the history of Fort Smith, Arkansas has been memorialized in the novel True Grit, and the two movies it inspired, True Grit (1969) and True Grit (2010).
Changed.
Family and farming
After Zimmerman returned his father gave a small acreage... → After Zimmerman returned, his father gave a small acreage...
Changed.
The couple had two children, Peter Jacob Hinde Zimmerman in 1903 and Rebecca Zimmerman in 1901. Switch order to be chronological
Changed.
Zimmerman and his wife raised their children in the Methodist faith and their children attended school in Mount Carmel. → Zimmerman and his wife raised their children in the Methodist faith and they attended school in Mount Carmel.
Changed.
Zimmerman trained his to operate him
Changed.
...burned in 1929... → ...burned down in 1929...
Changed.
Illinois Farmers' Institute a position he held for three years Comma after Insitute
Changed.
look very attractive after they fixed it up with flags and bunting." [23] Extra space before reference
Deleted extra space.
The institute members and Zimmerman at this time were followers of the The Grangers Movement... → At this time the institute members and Zimmerman were followers of the The Grangers Movement...
Changed.
...raised registered Shropshire sheep, which are sheep raised primarily for meat... → ...raised registered Shropshire sheep, primarily for meat...
Changed.
Some of their Shropshire sheep were listed on the American Shropshire Registry. Quick explanation what this is and why it's important
Changed.
Later business ventures
Inn In
Changed.
businesses was were
Changed.
he invested in beginning in August 1905 → he invested in from August 1905
Changed.
Grand Rapids Hotel
After the estate was settled in 1917, Zimmerman used his portion of the money to establish a hotel and resort on the Hinde family farm next to the Grand Rapids Dam, called the Grand Rapids Hotel in 1922, since he had to wait for the conclusion of World War I before he could begin construction. → After the estate was settled in 1917, Zimmerman decided to use his portion of the money to establish a hotel and resort on the Hinde family farm next to the Grand Rapids Dam but before he could begin construction, he had to wait for the conclusion of World War I.
Changed.
hotel was completed on August 7, 1922; later that year, Zimmerman's wife died. These sentences aren't connected, maybe mention the wife a little later?
Changed. Split sentence.
O.L. Rapson was The Grand Rapids Hotel's first manager, until 1924 when Glenn Goodart was selected by Zimmerman's children to take over after the death of their father. Prior to becoming the first manager at the hotel, Rapson had been a hired laborer on the Zimmerman farm and lived in a small shack next to Zimmerman's house. → Zimmerman chose hired laborer O.L. Rapson, who had worked at the family farm and lived in a small house next to his, as The Grand Rapids Hotel's first manager. He was fired in 1924 after the sudden death of Zimmerman and replaced by Rapson's friend Glenn Goodart at the request of Zimmerman's children.
Changed
it was not rebuilt due to the onset of the Great Depression. Lead mentions lack of funds as well.
Changed
he left roughly seventy-five percent of his estate to his son, while he left about twenty-five percent to his daughter. → he left roughly seventy-five percent of his estate to his son and about twenty-five percent to his daughter.
Changed.
Death
His date of death should be in this section and referenced.
Changed.
Some of the bank stock Zimmerman left his daughter caused her severe financial hardships due to the bank's failure during the Great Depression. Is this the bank that Zimmerman owned substantial interest in, The First National Bank in Mount Carmel, Illinois? If so, mention it.
Changed.
References
Diaries of Edmund C. Hinde California State Library Any more information about this source? Date?
Changed. Added information.
Three mentions of Google eBooks but no links.
Changed.
Risley, Theodore G. (1911). Illinois, historical; editors: Newton Bateman, LL. D., Paul Selby, A.M.; Wabash County, biographical; editor: Theodore G. Risley. Munsell Publishing Company. Don't really understand the formatting of this. What's the title of the work? Is there a reason for multiple separate editors?
The title ="Illinois, historical, Wabash County Biographical, Volume 2."  I added second part of title to references, and there is no explanation why there are multiple seperate editors.
To me it looks like there are two books in the reference: Illinois, historical; and Wabash County, biographical. Then it has the editors of both books. In this catalogue Newton Bateman is the author.
The hardback version is one book.  I more than willing to change if that is what you prefer.
State of Indiana (1919). ^ Year Book of the State of Indiana ...(Google eBook). State of Indiana. Formatting needed
Changed. Formatted reference and deleted Google eBook reference.
It'd be great to see some of these sources online, are they available anywhere?
I linked to ones that were online.
Images
Peter Jacob Hinde Zimmerman. Fred Zimmerman's son. → Peter Jacob Hinde Zimmerman in 1920, Fred Zimmerman's son.
Changed.
Second image needs a caption.
There is a caption, but it is not appearing for some reason.
Categories
No mention in text about The National Grange of the Order of Patrons of Husbandry, is this important? I'm not sure if it even needs to be in text anyway? Feel free to ignore.
The National Grange of the Order of Patrons of Husbandry - is the formal name for the Grangers Movement, which is discussed in the Family and farming section.

Passed Jack (talk) 17:50, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

The 1920 date is listed in the Wikimedia info accompanying the pic, but that is probably the starting date of the album from which the photo was copied (since the man is obviously older than 17 yrs in that picture). Accordingly, I am deleting the date from the text under the photo. When somebody has a useable date, please insert it. TIA