# Talk:Education in early modern Scotland

This review is transcluded from Talk:Education in early modern Scotland/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Lemurbaby (talk · contribs) 03:28, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose quality: 
B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists: 
Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. References to sources: 
B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary: 
C. No original research: 
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects: 
B. Focused: 
Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias: 
Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc: 
Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales: 
B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions: 
Overall:
Pass or Fail: 


### Comments
Hi SabreBD, it's been a while! Good to be back in touch. Thanks for writing about early historical education (and everything else you've been doing on early modern Scotland!). I'm an ed specialist, so I'll do my best without giving you a headache. :) Hope to come back to this over the next few days.  - Lemurbaby (talk) 03:28, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Hi. Many thanks for taking this on. I look forward to it.--SabreBD (talk) 16:44, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Lead: "brought them up to the standards of institutions elsewhere" - can you clarify what Scottish standards are being compared to?
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 09:21, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
"there were attempts to organise [...] and an expansion of the university system" - unclear whether the university was expanded, or whether this was only attempted
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 09:21, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Background: *"Scottish universities did not teach Greek..." I would recommend omitting the mention of what they didn't teach, unless you can provide a fuller explanation of why it matters to mention what you highlight (otherwise you could just as soon say they didn't teach Thai either). It would be good if you could provide a more complete description of what they did teach, as well as who had access to the universities (class, % of population enrolled) to provide a contrast to later discussion - to give us a better "launching point" in a sense.
 Done I expanded this a bit, the point is that they had not got onto the Humanist highway at this point.--SabreBD (talk) 09:21, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
"Those wanting to study for second degrees still needed to go elsewhere." Do you mean if the student wanted to earn two degrees he needed to do them at separate schools (but potentially within Scotland), or do the second one in another country? When you say second degree, do you mean a more advanced degree (i.e. that no universities in Scotland offered advanced diplomas)?
 Done Second ones had to be done outside of Scotland, they were normal for Medieval scholars. A bit tricky this as I cannot find out if they had fixed names.--SabreBD (talk) 09:21, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
General observation - The way this section is written feels like it assumes the reader is already familiar with Scottish and European educational history. Examples: "Did not teach Greek..." assumes knowledge of the importance of teaching Greek elsewhere or later in time. "Those wanting to study for second degrees still needed to go elsewhere." The use of the word still is referring to what will happen later in time, without the reader having arrived at that point in knowledge yet. I'd recommend reviewing this section with that in mind.
Similarly, the concept of humanism and its effect on schooling in Europe during this time needs to be expanded right at the beginning of the article in the background section to enable the reader to understand why a growing humanist influence in Scotland was important and what its philosophy entailed in terms of the content and availability of education.
 Done I think I have managed to give a general introduction to the two issues above.--SabreBD (talk) 12:29, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
In the second paragraph of the background section you introduce different the kinds of schools that emerged in Scotland. The reader needs to have a better sense of what these were. What's the difference between grammar schools, petty schools and sewing schools? How many were there? What portion of the population was enrolled? What kind of people could access them (gender, class)? What kind of subjects did they teach? What kind of people taught at them, and did they have any particular qualifications? How many years did people need to study there in order to earn a diploma? Who established these schools (churches, private individuals, the state) and how were they managed? This to me is the heart of what's missing in the article - both in the background section, and again in the main section when describing how the system evolved between the medieval and the early modern periods. You've provided certain details for one type of school but not the others; ideally each school would have its own paragraph at least with all of this information included. Maybe the best way to handle this is in the background section try to summarize the medieval situation with a focus on defining what these schools were and who attended them, then in the main portion on early modern Scotland discuss all these details under the century heading (i.e. "Sixteenth Century"... etc), contrasting it with information for the preceding period to underscore the education system's evolution (for example, "Enrollment in grammar schools in the sixteenth century reached X percent, a growth of X percent over the medieval period"). Or if doing this century by century isn't possible, the early modern period as a whole could be contrasted with the medieval period in a new section that precedes the "sixteenth century" heading.
Unfortunately, this is just not possible. The sources are limited for England in this period, and always much worse for Scotland. There simply is no way of knowing the numbers of pupils, or even the number of schools at any given point. There is not a system here, but a constantly changing set of practices. Education is also very informal, qualifications simply did not exist in the school system until the modern era. I will see if I can come up with something that explains that, but it will be very hard to source. I will also do a search for any estimates.--SabreBD (talk) 12:35, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Gotcha. I understand how this kind of historical info can be hard to find, if it exists at all. Lemurbaby (talk) 13:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
"by the end of the fifteenth century Edinburgh also had schools for girls" - this is a significant development that deserves more detailed discussion. Who established schools for girls (was it a particular church, for example?) How and why did these schools come about? What class of girls attended? How were they different from the schools for boys? etc
We just don't know. All we have is a few stray references.--SabreBD (talk) 12:35, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
All right. Lemurbaby (talk) 13:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
"increase in literacy" - it would be good to add more statistics here - what was the literacy rate in the medieval period for nobility, and for the total population? How much did literacy increase among the general population from the medieval to the early modern period?
There is an estimate of noble literacy at the end of the paragraph. There is no way of measuring literacy in the middle ages for the majority, because there are no documents.--SabreBD (talk) 17:08, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
All right. Lemurbaby (talk) 13:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Reformation section: "the old schools were maintained, with the song schools" - Song schools or sewing schools? (If "song" schools then that concept needs more explanation). What is meant by "old schools" here - existing schools?
 Done I added something on song schools to the background section, which helps this make sense. It means existing schools: I have adjusted it accordingly.--SabreBD (talk) 17:08, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Later you mention "expansion of the parish schools system that took place after the Reformation"; it would be good to add statistics to really make clear the extent of this expansion. How many schools were built over what period of time? How did the enrollment rate grow, and what were the enrollment rates for females vs males?
We just don't know this kind of detail.--SabreBD (talk) 17:08, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Too bad we can't get this detail... it would have been interesting to know. :) Lemurbaby (talk) 13:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
You make reference at times to the Reformation in relation to its effect on schools. It would be helpful to briefly explain what the Reformation is and what aspects of the philosophy that drove it would lead to effects on schools.
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 17:08, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
The term "kirk" needs to be defined on its first use.
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 17:08, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Can you explain the concept of a "kirk session"?
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 17:08, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
A more complete explanation of "adventure schools" would also be good.
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 18:36, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
It's not clear whether the burgh schools are the same assortment of grammar/sewing/etc schools that existed from medieval times, or if they are now becoming somehow regulated, managed and standardized under the burghs.
I think this is clear, they either became parish or grammar schools.--SabreBD (talk) 18:36, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
"At their best, the curriculum included..." it's not clear what type of school would use this curriculum.
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 18:36, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Parish schools: Briefly explain Covenanter principles
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 22:45, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
It would be good to state what exactly the parish schools were providing as "basic education" at this point in time, and the policy of parish schools toward female enrollment or age restrictions if they existed
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 22:45, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Growth of Universities: Provide a time period for the Commonwealth
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 22:45, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
At what time did universities come under control of the Protesters?
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 23:09, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
What is meant by "there was a purge of the universities"? When exactly did this happen, and when did universities "recover"?
 Done Clarified--SabreBD (talk) 23:09, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
What kind of observatories were established?
 Done Do you mean astronomical ones?--SabreBD (talk) 23:09, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Limitations: what is meant by a "polite accomplishment"? (wikilink?)
 Done As close as I can.--SabreBD (talk) 23:09, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Enlightenment: "In the eighteenth century Scotland reaped the intellectual benefits of this system." What is meant by this? Can you provide concrete examples?
 Done Clarified and the examples are the people that follow.--SabreBD (talk) 23:09, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
General prose remark - A number of sentences begin with "There was..." or "There were..." I'd recommend reformulating those sentences to be more precise and "active".
Not sure what you mean here. Could you give an example?--SabreBD (talk) 23:09, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
Actually with the changes you've made, the number of sentences like this is much reduced now; no need to make further changes. Lemurbaby (talk) 13:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
General linking remark - You've done a great job of wikifying it with links to important Scottish figures I'm looking forward to reading more about. That said, I've seen a good number of schools mentioned that aren't linked, but it seems like they could or should be - would you review this with an eye to wikifying it even further?
 Done I take it that is "schools" in the American sense of universities. I have gone through and linked the individual colleges.--SabreBD (talk) 20:04, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Images of Andrew Melville and Glasgow University in 1654 need US copyright tags
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 20:04, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Fix disambiguation link to Francis Hutcheson
 Done--SabreBD (talk) 23:09, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
- Lemurbaby (talk) 05:48, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi Sabre, thanks for getting to these edits so quickly. I'm now in Madagascar and am about to travel to the countryside, so I will have internet access again over the weekend and will come back to this hopefully no later than early next week. I think it's ready for a pass but I just need to go through and look at the changes you've made (and respond to your questions). Thanks for being patient... The green plus is almost there. :) Lemurbaby (talk) 06:26, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
Hi Lemurbaby. Traversing Madagascar just to finish this review may be a bit above and beyond the call of duty. Take your time, there is no hurry.--SabreBD (talk) 07:01, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
Great work on these edits - thanks again for your work on early modern Scottish history! Lemurbaby (talk) 13:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)