# Talk:North Downs Line

Is the line electrified ? (if so i assume as 3rd rail circa 750 volts DC) --84.68.63.54 19:44, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Turns out it is (3rd rail) between Reigate and Redhill - see p9 South West Main Line Route Utilisation Statergy (Netwrok Rail) Nov 2005 (PDF) [1] Pickle 17:24, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Starting at Redhill the line is electrified as far as Reigate. It is non-electrified west of Reigate through Dorking until Guildford (Shalford Jn). From Guildford (Shalford Jn) the line is electrified through to Ash (Aldershot South Jn).  The line is then non-electrified until Wokingham.  From Wokingham, the remainder of the line to Reading is electrified. So the line has three electrified sections and two "gaps".  Interestingly, the electrified sections include all the difficult areas, such as Guildford and Redhill.  The non-electrified sections are simple two-track lines, so one wonders why Network Rail cannot make a business case to "fill in"  the gaps and make the route completely electric. Harry Holland (talk) 20:45, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I've recently tried to work out the proportion of the line which is electrified. By my reckoning a total of 23 miles 40 chains are electrified:
Reading to Wokingham (6 miles 76 chains)
Aldershot South Junction to Shalford Junction (8 miles 71 chains)
Reigate to Gatwick Airport (7 miles 53 chains)
A total of 28 miles 60 chains are non-electrified:
Wokingham to Aldershot South (11 miles 71 chains)
Shalford Junction to Reigate (16 miles 59 chains)
So approximately 45% of the 50-odd mile route is electrified. I'm not very familiar with miles and chains and I may well have made mistakes converting from chains to miles, but as a ball park figure, this looks fairly reasonable. Mertbiol (talk) 17:12, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

This article gives the impression that this "Line" exists in isolation from the other services using exactly the same railway lines. In fact the name "North Downs Line" is simply a means of designating the services which use the tracks. The first part, to Wokingham, is a section of railway also used by the London Waterloo-Reading services; Southern serve Reigate; and so on.
Apart from which, the North Downs is at least another 70 miles to its end at the White Cliffs at Dover!!!
Peter Shearan 16:31, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

You are quite right, Peter. A great many of these British "passenger line" articles as they currently appear in the Wikipedia are bedevilled by an essential confusion between "the X line" as used by train operating companies' marketing departments (denoting a particular train service) and "line" as traditionally used in railway parlance to indicate a geographically defined A-to-B route as used by trains of all types. I have attempted to do some remedial work on the wording of the introduction here -- but this whole classification of British railway routes by passenger-railway marketing titles does need a full examination, I feel. -- Picapica 15:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Map is wrong. Line crosses Mole Valley line after Dorking Deepdene, not before.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.226.224 (talk) 11:03, 15 September 2007 (UTC) 

Well spotted, although strictly 'before' and 'after' does rather depend on which way you are travelling... :o)
EdJogg 13:36, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

(I presume that is the correct name...)
Anyway, looking at an SCC document I noticed a section of official map that showed the railways around that point, and clearly showed that this was a triangular junction. The chord from east to south has been lifted, leaving just the present alignment (from east to north).
I have updated Portsmouth Direct Line to show this feature, but I cannot adequately correct this map owing to the lack of a suitable icon. I need something similar to an ABZ_rd, but rotated 90deg anti-clockwise. I have placed an icon request on the appropriate routemap talkpage.
EdJogg 16:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I can verify the above by means of this wikimapia reference [2] that shows an aerial photograph of the junction.
I was hoping that this link to Map #004 of the Railway Clearing House diagrams for 1912 [3] might show the east-south chord, but it does not, so it must have been lifted prior to 1912. Catlows Cat 20:38, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello. My understanding is that although the embankment and a second bridge over the River Wey were built, no track was ever laid on the E-S chord as a consequence of the political rivalry between the SER and LSWR. Can you give more details of the SCC document EdJogg? Mertbiol 10:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
This gets more and more interesting. The document I found (dated 20 Oct 2005) describes improvements to the A281 (provision of a pedestrian crossing) in association with the planned re-instatement of a footbridge over the River Wey following the course of the railway line to Horsham (see Wey and Godalming Navigations). Towards the end of the document are a couple of maps showing the line of the new cycleway/bridleway and bridge. The maps clearly show the line of the chord and that the Horsham Line left the Portsmouth line at Peasmarsh Junction.(Link to document PDF).
EdJogg 10:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello. Here is a web reference, which shows the E-S curve which has been annotated "never completed" [4]. I have read something more substantial in print, but I need to make a trip to the library to dig it out. Mertbiol 15:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Hello. OK I've done a little more digging. The Guildford to Godalming section of the Portsmouth Direct Line was opened at the same time as the NDL in October 1849 and so at that time there was no point adding an E-S curve. The embankments and bridge of the E-S curve were built in 1853 once the SER had bought out the RG&RR. However the SER had already signed an agreement with the LBSCR to stay away from Chichester and Portsmouth (in 1848) and they were wary of laying track over the E-S curve in case this prompted a legal challenge. The reference is: Edwin Course (1987) Surrey Record Society volume 33: Minutes of the board of directors of the RG&RR. I'll add a section on this at the weekend. Mertbiol 19:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I was going to ask a question about this, then I found that you had already answered it ! :-) Having traversed the section a couple of times recently I was intrigued by the fact that the trackbed had been incorporated into the WW2 GHQ defensive line to which end a pillbox had been constructed on the embankment on the west side of the River Wey bridge (photo), indicating that the line was closed relatively early. I had a look at some old maps on www.old-maps.co.uk (co-ords 499500,147000), which is a useful resource, and had discovered that there were bridges but no tracks on the earliest available map in 1871. The bridge over the Wey is missing from the 1916 map indicating that it was removed sometime between 1897/98 and 1916. -- John (Daytona2 ·  Talk ·  Contribs) 04:02, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Hello. Does anyone know the origin of the name "North Downs Line". The earliest reference I can find is the name being used for the Network SouthEast subsector. Does it go back any further? Mertbiol 10:32, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Can't help with that, I'm afraid. Not sure I'd want to rename the article to Reading, Guildford and Reigate Railway though, as I would guess that more people are familiar with the current name.
I do remember that NSE applied a special graphic (incorporating the route name + a crest/logo) to the trains using this route, in particular the Class 119 DMUs used for the Gatwick services. Incidentally, remembering this made me notice that these DMUs are not yet mentioned in the article. As they were specially modified (buffet removed?) to provide additional luggage capacity for the Gatwick traffic, and then saw out their days on this line, this is a notable omission.
EdJogg 12:07, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Just checked the Network SouthEast Handbook (1990) and it confirms that the extra luggage space was achieved by removing buffet facilities.  I'll add a ref.  (The next sentence says NSE intended to electrify the remaining section in 1993!  We're still waiting...!)  Hassocks5489 11:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Copied from talk:WikiProject_UK_Railways  Mertbiol (talk) 19:43, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Can a few knowledgeable editors please review the recent edits by Jrstroud88 (talk · contribs)? I was alerted to the changes from the North Downs Line article, where, apparently, before 1994, trains went to Tunbridge Wells, rather than Tonbridge. Now I travelled on this line quite a lot in the 1980s and I always thought the timetable, train indicators, station announcements, etc said Tonbridge.  
EdJogg (talk) 02:27, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi EdJogg. I've also noticed these changes and was a little mystified, because I have never heard of NDL services terminating at Tunbridge Wells. I've had a brief scout around on the internet and the earliest NSE network map I can find is from 1991-92 which definitely shows NDL services terminating at Tonbridge. [5]
Mertbiol (talk) 16:36, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Here are two further maps: 1989 [6] and 1986? [7]. I will revert the changes and copy these to the NDL talk page. Mertbiol (talk) 19:39, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
The NDL never went to Tunbridge Wells.  Prior to electrification Class 117 type DMU's used to used to shuttle between Tonbridge and Rehill/Reading. Tunbridge Wellls would never have been able to operate as a terminus station due its only having two platforms. The edits by {{user|Jrstroud88}] are innaccurate and reflect a lack of knowledge of this region. Olana North (talk) 10:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I think I have discovered the origin of the confusion. The hourly services run by Southeastern along the Redhill-Tonbridge line to Horsham originate at Tunbridge Wells on weekdays (the XX52 departure).[8]  (Obviously this does not affect the pre-1994 NDL timetable, in which services from Redhill terminated at Tonbridge.) Mertbiol (talk) 18:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Tonbridge-Redhill-London Bridge services also originate from Tunbridge Wells off peak, too. Mertbiol (talk) 18:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

A tiny point, but my local knowledge tells me that there are two level crossings (unclassified roads) between Chilworth and Gomshall stations. The missing one is west of Gomshall and east of the former Shere Heath station. 
As for the name, 'North Downs Line', I admit that it's a modernish marketng name, but the line as a whole remains much as it was originally built from Redhill to Reading and it was a significant chunk of SER's route mileage in the early days. It deserves a name !
Stuartsh (talk) 17:20, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

An edit yesterday (see here) changed the emphasis of the 'Possibilities for electrification' paragraph for the route between Wokingham and Ash. The original suggested that the platforms had been extended, with future electrification in mind. The revised text suggests that platform lengthening would be required ('of course').
So, were these platforms extended, as originally stated, or not? This edit changes the meaning utterly.
EdJogg (talk) 10:28, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Hello EdJogg.  From memory the shortest platforms between Wokingham and Ash are at Sandhurst and Blackwater. The platforms at both stations would require lengthening for any rolling stock longer than the 3 car Class 166 DMUs.  Farnborough North also has a fairly short platform and might also need extending. The latest form of the section is therefore correct, although it could do with references and extra details to make it more encyclopaedic.  Mertbiol (talk) 10:39, 24 September 2008 (UTC)