# Talk:Join Hands

The article starts off with some lengthy quotes from a man called Kenneth Ansell, writing in a magazine called Blank Space. This page and mirrors of it are the only Google returns for Kenneth Ansell + Blank Space; it would be interesting to know if (a) Kenneth Ansell has contributed to this article and (b) if there are any other, more notable critics who can be quoted. 'cause at the moment half of the article is taken up with what I assume is a photocopied fanzine review; it exists, it's good that someone has preserved it, but we're giving undue weight to it. It raises the question of who Kenneth Ansell was; what was his day job? -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 18:27, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Does the legacy section of this article have any relevance to the main subject matter? Is it important to describe how another musician bought this record? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Electronic Music (talk • contribs) 15:49, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

In short, no. These are trivial tidbits that could be incorporated into the Reception section ("LCD Sound System's James Murphy cites Join Hands as one of his favorite albums"). The Morrissey bit seems wholly irrelevant, unless he actually had something to say about the song or why he chose it. --IllaZilla (talk) 15:59, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

This section is problematic: "Join Hands is a post-punk album. Retrospectively, it was only recognized under this term in 2006 by music historian Clinton Heylin in his book Babylon's Burning: From Punk to Grunge. Allmusic also only presented under this genre."
First, is the person who wrote this trying to say that Mr. Heylin was the very first person to describe this album as post-punk, in 2006 no less? The album was being defined that way back in the early 1980s.
Second problem, the sentence " Allmusic also only presented under this genre" is illegible. I would change it, but I am not sure what the writer even intended to say. How can a music website "present under" a genre? Not sure if the writer's first language is English or not, no offense is intended, but that wording makes no sense and needs changing.Greg Fasolino (talk) 14:59, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Corrected. [I had a hangover when I wrote this].Carliertwo (talk) 14:55, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Join Hands/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: J Milburn (talk · contribs) 16:02, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Happy to offer a review; I'm a big fan of the band, though Join Hands isn't, if I'm honest, one of my favourites. Josh Milburn (talk) 16:02, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm going to copyedit as I go, but just to head-off a potential concern: false titles are generally not considered standard in British English
"Musically, it is in a darker vein than the band's debut album" It's not really clear to me what this means
Fixed with "Musically, it is darker than the band's debut album The Scream[simon goddard source] :  it sounds more claustrophobic and more haunting". Carliertwo (talk) 00:10, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
"at the beginning of the tour" What tour?
Fixed with "at the beginning of the British Join Hands tour on the day of the release of the album". Carliertwo (talk) 00:10, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
"In England, It was also a time of instability. In London, the rubbish was piling high in the streets." This is too prosaic, I fear.
Fixed with "In England, there was a time of instability. In February, after a few weeks of the dustmen being on strike, rubbish began to pile up in the streets of London" Carliertwo (talk) 00:10, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
"Siouxsie saw" First name? This is the first mention of her; she should probably be referred to as "Siouxsie Sioux, the band's frontperson" or something similar, and the "Sioux" thereafter?
Fixed. Carliertwo (talk) 00:10, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
"Rather than a pro-military message, the lyrics were meant to capture the spirit of what things were like at the time.[4]" This comes out of the blue a bit; you're yet to really introduce the military aspect.
Added : "The theme of war emerged through the songs : rather than a pro-military message, ..." Carliertwo (talk) 00:10, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
"the mention "2 minutes of silence" was added next to "Poppy Day"" I don't follow
Added : ""Poppy day" had been shaped after Steven Severin had observed the televised two minutes of silence in memory of the war dead on November 11, 1978 . "We wanted to write a song that , would fittingly fill that gap", he state". Carliertwo (talk) 00:10, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
"opened the second side with the sound of tubular bells over a kind of nursery-rhyme" Again, this is a little prosaic
done Carliertwo (talk) 14:49, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
You have a very long paragraph in the first section; could this not be split up?
Added a space. Carliertwo (talk) 00:10, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
"The single was not commercial" Perhaps "the single was not commercially released"? Or do you mean something else?
Fixed with "the single didn't sound catchy..." Carliertwo (talk) 00:10, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
"him that he would have bet money that a song like "Playground Twist" would never enter the top 30, but against all expectations, it did" Again, I think the tone's a bit off, here.
Added instead "The single didn't sound catchy but it nevertheless entered in the top 30. Severin later recalled the head of A&R at Polydor telling him he expected a commercial failure". Carliertwo (talk) 00:10, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
"The group used other instruments on the album" Other than what?
I erased this sentence and added that the tracks "Poppy Day", "Regal Zone" and "Mother" are respectively played with bells, saxophone and a music box.
"The recording took place under peculiar circumstances, with the band almost split in two camps. There was tension and little communication between McKay, Morris and the two founding members of the group, Siouxsie and Severin" This is also a little too prosaic, I think
fixed Carliertwo (talk) 14:49, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps you could think about avoiding personifying publications in the reception section; perhaps "Smith wrote in NME that" would be better than "NME wrote that".
Done. Carliertwo (talk) 00:17, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
In what way was it "a dangerous work"?
" Due to several of its songs, it is also seen as a precursor of the gothic rock genre by some critics, including Simon Reynolds." A bit weaselly. You can't really claim that "some" critics see it in such and such a way while only citing one.
Fixed with "according to Simon Reynolds". Carliertwo (talk) 00:10, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
I'm struggling with the long quote in the third paragraph of "Legacy".
Fixed with "James Murphy, the leader of LCD Soundsystem, expressed an appreciation of the album stating the first records he bought were Join Hands, The Fall's Grotesque and The Birthday Party's "Nick the Stripper". "All three of those records are three of my favourite things I've ever heard", he said." Carliertwo (talk) 00:22, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
"In Control, a film relating the story of Joy Division's singer Ian Curtis, the sleeve of Join Hands is shown in a scene where the character of Curtis' wife, Deborah (who co-wrote the film), looks through her husband's record collection.[27]" Is this important? I'd say remove it- if you're keen to keep it, perhaps shorten the sentence and add it to the other paragraph about Joy Division- but I think we'd need a secondary source, rather than just a YouTube clip.
Done, added this in the legacy section. " In 2007, in the film Control, the sleeve of Join Hands is shown in a scene where the character of Ian Curtis' wife, Deborah (who co-wrote the screenplpay), looks through her husband's record collection." I withdrew the youtube link.
Ok, that's all for now; I'll take a look into the references and images another time. Josh Milburn (talk) 16:52, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Ah, this explains your edit to my reversion. I am a U.S. journalist and we are taught to use what you call "false titles" and to omit the "the" in the beginning of such sentences when possible. Anyway, this is the first time I've ever heard of this issue (all U.S. publications write that way), but UK band, UK usage so I guess I will concede the point. Greg Fasolino (talk) 19:41, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
To be honest, it's only something I was introduced to recently, but it's a rule I've done my best to internalise. And yes, I only change articles written in British English! Josh Milburn (talk) 19:44, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
Ok, concerning other aspects of the article:

The lead image is fine, but it is much too large; 300 by 300 pixels is standardly thought to be large enough. The second album cover is also a little large; I'm confident that (unusually) a second album cover is justified, but the generic rationale is no good. I've reduced the images, but I do think the rationale needs to be more specific.
The publicity photograph, on the other hand, most certainly is not justified. I am removing it.
I completely disagree. This was not a publicity. This photograph comes from Polydor and was not published as an advertisement in any newspapers at the time.
Here's why it has to stay. This photograph was the cover of the 1979's September UK tour program. It is relevant for the article as it shows the band standing in front of the monument with the 4 soldiers, the soldiers that served as illustration for the sleeve of the LP. I will find quotes to explain this in the article in the following days. I don't think there is anything that justifies the withdrawal of this important visual document.  Carliertwo (talk) 00:33, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
I remain sceptical about the image meeting non-free content criterion 8; whether it's a publicity photograph or a tour cover, it's not the kind of image that would typically be considered to add a significant amount to an album article. I await your sources. Josh Milburn (talk) 08:19, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
It does add a significant amount to an album article and it is allowed. A FA article like Ok Computer includes this publicity in the section Release and promotion and the reviewer accepted it. Here, the picture of the group in front of the Monument Guards in London in 1979, shows where the idea of the sleeve with these 4 soldiers comes from, without mentioning that Severin had the idea to compose Poppy Day after observing the televised two-minutes of silence during a ceremony shot at this place with these statues, @J Milburn:. I put back the picture, with an explanation and a source and I reduced the size. Carliertwo (talk) 23:11, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
That image is used as part of a long discussion of the promotion of the album, so isn't really comparable to the use of this image here. In any case, it's surely the "exception which proves the rule"; I checked a bunch of other FA class album articles and found publicity photos on none of them (and, for what it's worth, second covers on very few of them- I think Join Hands is an exceptional case, here.) I also note that there actually wasn't a non-free content review at FAC, beyond someone noting that there was a bit much and it should be cut down. It wouldn't pass without a review of that sort today. I'm not claiming that there's a blanket ban on non-free publicity photos in album articles (there isn't), all I'm saying is that their use should be highly judicious and requires considerable justification. The question has got to be whether the article suffers or is incomplete without the image; I can't see that it is. We have the album cover that the image inspired, and we have (or could have) sourced discussion of the songs' inspiration; why we need the publicity photo beyond that is unclear to me. Josh Milburn (talk) 09:01, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
The lead seems to contain information which is not present elsewhere in the article; it should summarise the rest of the article, meaning that it should not contain anything that is not found elsewhere.
The sources look appropriate; the formatting is a bit inconsistent, but that's not something that needs to be perfect for GA status. Josh Milburn (talk) 14:57, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
J Milburn, I corrected all the points and changed several things. Let me know if there's anything else that needs to be fixed, as I still have got time, 48 hours left I believe. Carliertwo (talk) 00:53, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
Super, thanks. I'll be back for another look through soon. Josh Milburn (talk) 09:14, 20 April 2016 (UTC)


### Second look-through
Ok, going through again...

"took the un-rock'n'roll topic of World War I as its inspiration" This is a little judgemental to be said in Wikipedia's neutral voice, I think.
Perhaps you could mention the rereleases in the lead? That would be a nice way to beef-up the third paragraph, I think.
"At that time, there were new reports from Iran and what was going on there: repression and curfews. It was one of the first times that viewers saw people being shot and killed on television. In England, there was a time of instability. In February, after a few weeks of the dustmen being on strike, rubbish began to pile up in the streets of London." I'm not convinced that this is very neutral. It has a kind of "let me tell you a story" vibe. (Do we have a gender-neutral alternative to "dustmen", by the way?)
"The band were inspired by these events and wrote about it." What does "it" refer to, here?
I assume it is Miranda Sawyer you refer to? A link and/or introduction might be good- "the journalist" (or whatever).
"The poppy reproduced on the album cover is a symbol of Remembrance Day." OK, but you discuss "covers elsewhere; perhaps this should be moved?
"over what one journalist called "shards of John McKay's guitar"[1] over a "strident militaristic backbeat"," Repetition of "over"
What is "an urgent saxophone"? "clinical lyrics"?
You have a tense-shift in the description of the music; I'd stick to the present tense, which is how you open
"kicked off the second side with a wall of guitars and church bells" Very informal; appropriate for a music review, less so for an encyclopedia article, I think.
(Gotta dash- back later) Josh Milburn (talk) 16:50, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

All done, hope it works. J Milburn. Carliertwo (talk) 00:58, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
J Milburn. Concerning this suggestion, "You have a tense-shift in the description of the music; I'd stick to the present tense, which is how you open"
I read and read but I struggle with this. I don't see where I should change the tense in the section about music and lyrics. The first sentence "The album opens with the sound of tolling bells before the beginning of "Poppy Day"" is in the present tense because this is what the listener hears when playing the record in the present. Then I put everything to the past because each song was composed and written a long time ago. I don't see which other verb should be changed to the present tense, actually. Carliertwo (talk) 13:00, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
Tried my best with a few changes of tense when it was possible. Carliertwo (talk) 16:01, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
Ok, I've gone through the article again and think it looks great. I also feel that the changes have made clear the significance of the publicity photo. I've made a few edits (please double-check that you're happy with them) and my one remaining comment is that the rationales on the publicity photo and the second album cover should be updated to specify why they're being used (with reference to the discussion in the article). Once this is done, and assuming you're happy with everything, I'll be happy to promote. Josh Milburn (talk) 19:30, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

All done, I tried my best J Milburn. . I didn't know if I was allowed to write one or two sentences for each rationale. So I took a look at Ok Computer to get instances. I think it is better to stay concise. On second thought, the part "showing children joining hands" is maybe useless at the end of the first rationale. Carliertwo (talk) 23:02, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
I think the changes are good, but I was referring to the rationales on the image pages; the explanations of what these images add to the article. Josh Milburn (talk) 09:28, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
By the way, I just came across this passage, which has some nice information on the whole "was this a gothic album" thing. From pages 30-1 of doi:10.1080/03007766.2010.537928:

In Mark Paytress's extensive collection of interviews with the group, the Banshees claim to have openly identified their second album, 1979's Join Hands, as gothic at the time of its release, but insist that the music press failed to pick up on the term (107). Paytress moreover records the group's claim that its 1981 follow-up album, Juju, was widely considered “the first ever ‘gothic’ album” (qtd in Paytress 106–07). Banshees bassist Steve Severin has recounted the influence of 19th-century gothic literature—especially Edgar Allan Poe—on the band in the early 1980s, and cites the Banshees' song “Premature Burial” (from Join Hands, and based on Poe's short story of the same name) as “definitely gothic in its proper sense” (qtd in Paytress 107). However, Severin has also claimed that he hates the descriptor “gothic”; moreover, former Banshees guitarist John McGeoch has insisted that the band “would never call themselves a goth band because it's simply not true” (qtd in Paytress 106–07). In 1997, Siouxsie Sioux heatedly asserted “Goth doesn't exist!” (qtd in Colon). However, Billy Chainsaw, personal assistant to the Banshees from 1979 to 1995, strongly disagrees with the band's rejection of the gothic tag:

"I never understood why they hated being described as goth. You only have to look at the lyrics.…I'm not talking about bats and ghosts. I'm talking about Gothic literature as an art form. C'mon, the band's name comes from a Hammer horror movie—Cry of the Banshee! That root had always been there” (qtd in Paytress 107)

Siouxsie and the Banshees were perhaps the first, but certainly not the last, band to find themselves labeled “gothic” and to both embrace and reject that label.

I've added a bit from the above source about "Premature Burial"; feel free to add more elsewhere in the article. Josh Milburn (talk) 09:52, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
I did the rationales J Milburn. The rest is covered in the legacy section. I am happy with everything in the article. Carliertwo (talk) 14:33, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
Ok, great. I'm going to promote at this time, but, as a closing thought, it does strike me as a bit odd to replace a reference to peer-reviewed research with a reference to a primary source. I would have thought that an article in a journal focussed on popular music would be exactly the kind of source we should be using if we have it. Anyway, I've tried to be pretty light-touch with the references in this review, and I'm happy to promote; the article has improved considerably in the last few days. Good work! Josh Milburn (talk) 14:58, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, I wouldn't have succeeded without all these advices.J Milburn (talk · contribs)
Concerning the source, I changed it because it looked like a copy/paste of Mark Paytress's work, (Paytress is known by the readers of Mojo (magazine)' as a journalist). It seems more apt to me to cite Paytress directly rather than citing someone else who reproduced his work word by word. Paytress stated: "Premature Burial" was in part inspired by Poe's story, (he did the interviews with Severin); Siouxsie also discussed the song several times in terms of the theme of social claustrophobia . Carliertwo (talk) 15:41, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
I see; I'm happy to trust your judgement on the issue. I did wonder if the paper might be useful for the whole "goth or not" thing, but it's your call. Josh Milburn (talk) 15:55, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

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