# Talk:Joyce Kilmer

I remember reading this article when it became a GA and notice it is still well-written but there are many extra, unnecessary sections.  It is a worthy subject for GA status and should be promoted again.  To do so: (1) I would remove the honors and awards section (or make it one paragraph) because right now it looks like an uncontrollable list--something better as List of places and things named for Joyce Kilmer.  I'll remove the text as is and place it here on the talk page below and then write a paragraph or two to be inserted in the article about "there are many places named after..."  (2) I would also remove the section on Trees to its own article (Trees (poem) which is now a redirect). (3) Perhaps a little cleaning of the prose and a copyedit and we can make this a GA again.--ColonelHenry (talk) 16:40, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

After performing a monumental revision over the last two days, I am nominating it for GA status again.  Good Article Nomination was started a moment ago.--ColonelHenry (talk) 15:41, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


### Honors and awards
Several municipalities across the United States have named parks, schools, streets and squares in honor of Joyce Kilmer, including his hometown of New Brunswick, New Jersey, which renamed Codwise Avenue, the street on which he was born, "Joyce Kilmer Avenue". In 2007, the city also hosted a Kilmer conference.


#### The Fighting 69th
In the 1940 film, The Fighting 69th directed by William Keighley and starring James Cagney, Kilmer is depicted as a minor character played by actor Jeffrey Lynn (1909–1995).


#### Camp Kilmer
Camp Kilmer, opened in 1942 in what is now Edison, New Jersey, an embarkation center for soldiers going to the European theatre during World War II. A small area of the original Camp ultimately remained as a US Army Reserve Center, which finally closed in 2009 as a result of the Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) process.  Some of the original camp buildings and warehouses remain elsewhere on the former Camp area, which is now the location of the Livingston campus of Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey where a library is named after him.


#### Joyce Kilmer Park
Joyce Kilmer Park, is located along the west side of the Grand Concourse in The Bronx, with a view westward of nearby Yankee Stadium.


#### Joyce Kilmer Square
Sgt Joyce Kilmer Triangle is located along Kings Highway and Quentin Road at East 12th Street in Brooklyn. It is under the jurisdiction of the city Department of Parks and Recreation, and features a flapole, benches and a memorial to Kilmer.


#### Joyce Kilmer Middle School
Joyce Kilmer Middle School, in Fairfax County, Virginia, is named after him.
Joyce Kilmer Middle School, in Milltown, New Jersey, is also named for him. Each year at the Arbor Day ceremony his famous poem "Trees" is read.


#### Joyce Kilmer Memorial Fireplace
Joyce Kilmer Memorial Fireplace - The large stone fireplace was erected in Como Park in St. Paul, MN in 1936 in memory of Kilmer. A nearby sunken pool with miniature waterfalls, also named for Kilmer, no longer exists.  Until recently, the fireplace was in a state of disrepair, but in 2011 underwent cleaning and restoration to its original condition.  Kilmer was honored by St. Paul Parks Superintendent W. Lamont Kauffman, who was a charter member of the Joyce Kilmer post of the American Legion.


#### Joyce Kilmer Memorial Forest
The Joyce Kilmer Memorial Forest (17,394 acres/15 km²) located in the Nantahala National Forest, near Robbinsville in Graham County, North Carolina was dedicated in Kilmer's memory on July 10, 1936.


#### Kilmer Triangle
The Rogers Park community in Chicago, IL have named a triangle medium located at the intersection of Birchwood Ave., Rogers Ave., and Ashland Ave. after him. The site has a World War I memorial plaque mounted onto a large boulder. A task force of residents of Rogers Park renovated the triangle in 2009 to include new landscaping and a solitary tree in the center.


#### Kilmer Service Area
The state of New Jersey and the New Jersey Turnpike Authority have named a service area on the New Jersey Turnpike, located in East Brunswick Township after him.


#### Joyce Kilmer Elementary School, Illinois
In the Rogers Park community of Chicago, Illinois, he has a school named after him, the Joyce Kilmer Elementary School.
An additional Joyce Kilmer Elementary School , opened in 1966, is in Buffalo Grove, Illinois. It is part of Community Consolidated School District No. 21 in Wheeling Township, Illinois. It feeds James Fenimore Cooper Middle School, also in Buffalo Grove.


#### Joyce Kilmer Elementary School, New Jersey
The town of Mahwah, New Jersey, which was Kilmer's home from about 1913 to the end of his life, has a school named after him, the Joyce Kilmer Elementary School. Nobody's Inn, a bar and grill at 150 Franklin Turnpike in Mahwah (next to the Erie-Lackawanna railroad tracks about 0.7 miles from the border of Suffern, New York), which closed in 2002, was widely believed to occupy the house that inspired Kilmer's poem, "The House with Nobody In It." The poem begins, "Whenever I walk to Suffern along the Erie track / I go by a poor old farmhouse with its shingles broken and black."
A Joyce Kilmer Elementary School is located in Trenton, New Jersey, as a part of the Trenton Public Schools district, and in the Borough of Milltown, New Jersey.
Another Joyce Kilmer Elementary School is located in Cherry Hill, New Jersey.


#### Joyce Kilmer Elementary School, West Roxbury, Mass.
The Joyce Kilmer K-8 School in West Roxbury, Massachusetts (formerly Joyce Kilmer Elementary) is named in his honor.


#### Joyce Kilmer Memorial Bad Poetry Contest
The Philolexian Society of Columbia University, a collegiate literary society of which Kilmer was vice president, holds the annual Alfred Joyce Kilmer Memorial Bad Poetry Contest in his honor.


#### Joyce Kilmer Tree (Central Park, New York)
There is a tree with a plaque in Central Park. The plaque reads:
IN MEMORIAM/Sergeant Joyce Kilmer/"Poet of the Trees"/Killed in Action - Bois-Colas/July 30, 1918
The tree is located east of Center Drive at about 67th Street. The plaque is in the ground on a concrete base and is visible from the walk looking east over the fence. The location is near several other memorials related to World War I. On the west side of the walk trees were planted in 1919 by Albert King of the Belgians, Gen. John J. Pershing and the Prince of Wales (Edward VIII). North of the latter a tree was planted by his grandfather  Edward VII in 1860 when he was Prince of Wales. That tree is no longer there.  Farther north on Flagpole Hill is a memorial to City Employees erected 1926. On the far side of the mall is an entire grove of trees and plaques for the companies of the 307th Infantry of the 77 Division A.E.F. Due east, outside the wall of the park on Fifth Avenue is a memorial to the 107th Infantry Regiment. In fact it is fair to say that Kilmer's tree is in the center of these memorials.


### Works
Summer of Love. (New York: Baker and Taylor, 1911).
Trees and Other Poems. (New York: Doubleday Doran and Co., 1914).
The Circus and Other Essays. (New York: Lawrence J. Gomme, 1916).
Main Street and Other Poems. (New York: George H. Doran, 1917).
The Courage of Enlightenment. An address delivered in Campion College, Prairie du Chien, Wisconsin, to the members of the graduating class, 15 June 1917. (Prairie du Chien, Wisconsin: 1917).
Dreams and Images: An Anthology of Catholic Poets. (ed. by Joyce Kilmer). (New York: Boni and Liveright, 1917).
Literature in the Making by some of its Makers. (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1917).
Poems, Essays and Letters in Two Volumes. Robert Cortes Holliday (ed.). (Volume One: Memoir and Poems, Volume Two: Prose Works) (New York: George H. Doran, 1918 - published posthumously).
The Circus and Other Essays and Fugitive Pieces. (New York: George H. Doran, 1921 - published posthumously).


### Notes
Though Joyce was the fourth and youngest child in his family, two of his siblings, Ellen Annie Kilmer (1875–1876) and Charles Willoughby Kilmer (1880), died before his birth, while his oldest brother, Anda Frederick Kilmer (1873–1899), died when Joyce was thirteen years old, most likely a suicide in a Philadelphia hotel.
Joyce Kilmer's son, Christopher Kilmer, also joined the Fighting 69th and served with it in the Asiatic - Pacific theater in World War II.
US Navy Hospital Corpsman John E. Kilmer, a recipient of the Medal of Honor in Korea, is a distant relative of Joyce Kilmer.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Joyce Kilmer/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: SilkTork (talk · contribs) 14:13, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
I'll start reading over the next few days and then begin to make comments. I am normally a slow reviewer - if that is likely to be a problem, please let me know now. I tend to directly do copy-editing and minor improvements, though if there is a lot of work needed I may suggest getting a copy-editor. Anything more significant than minor improvements I will raise here. I see the reviewer's role as collaborative and collegiate, so I welcome discussion regarding interpretation of the criteria. SilkTork ✔Tea time 14:13, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Pass. SilkTork ✔Tea time 16:01, 25 August 2012 (UTC)


### Tick box
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose quality: 

B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists: 

Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. References to sources: 

B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary: 

C. No original research: 

Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects: 

B. Focused: 

Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias: 

Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc: 

Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content: 

B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions: 

Overall:
Pass or Fail: 


### Comments on GA criteria
Pass
Images and captions are OK. SilkTork ✔Tea time 14:28, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Stable. SilkTork ✔Tea time 14:33, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Has az reference section. SilkTork ✔Tea time 14:34, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Prose is clear and conveys meaning.  I am copy-editing as I work through, and prose can always be tidied or improved, but as it stands it is fine - nobody is likely to get confused. SilkTork ✔Tea time 14:58, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Mos. The lead meets GA criteria as it picks up succinctly the main points raised in the article. As part of ongoing development, some additional detail could be added to give readers a better understanding of the topic. Many readers don't go beyond the lead. SilkTork ✔Tea time 15:11, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
NPOV. Fair and balanced. SilkTork ✔Tea time 15:34, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Sources check out. Article is decently supported by reliable sources. SilkTork ✔Tea time 15:49, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Original research. Sources and encyclopaedias I've consulted match what is in this article. SilkTork ✔Tea time 15:49, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Query
Broad coverage. Possibly more for later development, but one source mentions that "Tree" was set to music in Whimsical Whimsies by Kilmer's mother, and this made it even more popular. SilkTork ✔Tea time 15:37, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Focus. Again, this is more in the way of airing a query, rather than a firm objection. There is a paragraph on Kilmer's conversion to Catholicism. Is this too much? SilkTork ✔Tea time 15:40, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Fail


### General comments
influences  = Metaphysical poets, Algernon Charles Swinburne, Gerald Manley Hopkins, Ernest Dowson, Aubrey Beardsley, William Butler Yeats, A.E. Housman, Edwin Arlington Robinson, Coventry Patmore, Francis Thompson, Alice Meynell, Viola Meynell, Francis Meynell
Isn't that rather a long list for a person who isn't known for their literary skill, but for having simply written a popular poem? SilkTork ✔Tea time 14:46, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
There's a lot of direct quotation in the article. This is not a GA issue, but is a stylistic one. There are differences of opinion regarding use of quotations - how long and how many. The guidance essay - Wikipedia:Quotations - is worth looking at. SilkTork ✔Tea time 15:52, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
There is a tendency to short paragraphs, particularly in the Years of writing and faith section. This can inhibit flow. Advice will vary on the appropriate length of a paragraph - but worth looking at Wikipedia:Layout#Paragraphs to get a general idea. SilkTork ✔Tea time 15:55, 25 August 2012 (UTC)


### Pass
My queries regarding focus and broad coverage are quite minor, and are not significant enough to hold up this GAN. They can be considered as part of ongoing development.
This is a useful article on a minor literary figure who was both popular and prolific in his day, and who continues to attract attention with his simplistic yet popular poem "Trees". The article presents the key information of his life and work in an accessible yet reliable manner. SilkTork ✔Tea time 16:01, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

There are a ton of places named after Joyce Kilmer that I removed from the article because it was a list that detracted from the discussion of the article's subject.  Should this list of places (schools, parks, national forests) named after Kilmer be set up as an article as List of places named after Joyce Kilmer or as Joyce Kilmer (disambiguation).  I would lean toward the first option, but am not entirely sure on the policy regarding this practice.  Please advise. --ColonelHenry (talk) 13:49, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I chose to start the List. --ColonelHenry (talk) 01:30, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
Go ahead and make it. Kdammers (talk) 01:38, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Per WP:BRD, and with consideration of WP:TCREEP, I've removed a recently added "military person infobox" (q.v. at right). We don't need multiple infoboxes in a lede (i.e. clutter), and the military person infobox added by an IP user (108.211.37.125) is relatively unnecessary as it only mentions five facts that are mentioned sufficiently in the article--and discussed second paragraph of the lede which is far more informative than the infobox.  Further detail is added in the appropriate biographical materials discussing his military service.  We already have an infobox that focuses on his primary contribution to posterity (i.e. his poetry), and it is mentioned there that he was a soldier, amongst other professions.  That should be sufficient, and this additional infobox--aside from cluttering the article--is rather unnecessary.--ColonelHenry (talk) 14:53, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

The article on Joyce Kilmer says, "His body was carried in and buried by the side of Ames" but does not otherwise mention who Ames is.Dcb2 (talk) 05:14, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

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I have the first volume of Joyce Kilmer: Poems, Essays and Letters, edited by Robert Cortes Holliday (who is quoted frequently in the article) and published in New York by George H. Doran Company in 1918. The photo identified here as a 1908 yearbook photo is the frontispiece of the book. In the book, the photo is identified as the "last civilian portrait" of Kilmer, aged 30, and © Underwood & Underwood. I am wondering what the authority is for identifying it as a 1908 yearbook portrait.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by ELCore (talk • contribs) 15:37, 28 May 2017 (UTC) 
P.S. I see now that another portrait is identified in the book as Kilmer's graduation portrait, captioned "Joyce Kilmer, age 21. Taken in academic gown, immediately after his graduation, and directly preceding his marriage." I do not know if that would be the same as a yearbook portrait.

On 2019 March 3‎ at 11:01, Ellesmithfagan made an edit labelled "Trees":  clarifies a statement", but it seems to be to be Original Research (or at least not very useful info). Either way, it could use some copy editing, but if the section (titled "INSIGHT") is going to be removed, I see no reason to improve it.
Please advise,
Thank you,
WesT (talk) 17:14, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

There are two different sections titled "Works". 2603:6011:440:441:B8C1:F23E:64FC:7AFA (talk) 23:38, 3 May 2025 (UTC)