# Talk:Miran Pastourma

The same user opened two articles Miran Pastourma (this one) and Apikoğlu Brothers on two pastirma and sujuk artisans (later businessmen) from Kayseri, Turkey, lately. (Thanks.) Both people were ethnic Armenians from Ottoman Turkey. Both first came from Kayseri to Istanbul and moved their pastirma-sujuk business. One (the latter) stayed in Istanbul and continues business since 1920 there. The other, for some reason moved to Athens in 1922. According to the article, Miran came (escaped) to Athens allegedly (I added) due to something horrible which I will not write down here because I do not agree with the term used in the article; so let me write it in Turkish: 1915 "Ermeni tehciri". Now I am very confused: Two families of Ottoman Armenians move from the Turkish city of Kayseri to the Turkish city of Istanbul in the same years. One family sets up their pastirma-sujuk business there and achieves a great commercial success. The other, for some reason, "escapes" to Athens only two years after the first family sets up its business in Istanbul. Could the reason of the escape be "competition"? If there was such a great risk for pastirma and sujuk producers in Istanbul in the 1920s why did not the Apikoğlu brothers escape out of Turkey together with the Miran family and open a "charcuterie" say in Salonica or Marseilles, where there is a  large Armenian community, who, like all other Ottoman people would make a good client market for the pastirma and sujuk, Kayseri style? I removed the so-called reason of Miran's "escape" from Istanbul from the article because it did not seem convincing to me for the above explanation. My edit was reverted and nobody made an effort to "seriously" source that "story". Could it be possible that Miran invented an escape story so that the people of Athens would have more sympathy to his "charcuterie" and buy more pastirma and sujuk from Miran's place? Please add reliable sources that Miran really "escaped" from Turkey for the reasons claimed in this article. --E4024 (talk) 17:51, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

First, we are not here to analyse reliable sources by using original research. Second, I don't think you are reading the paragraph carefully. The reliable sources such as the newspaper To Vima verify the flight from Kayseri to Constantinople and then "settlement in" Athens: ...who managed to escape to Constantinople from his native Kayseri, and eventually settled in Athens, Greece.. So the "escape" was to Constantinople from Kayseri, not to Athens, where the paragraph explicitly states that "he settled", not "escaped". "To settle" is obviously not the same as "to escape". I hope you realise that. So your statement: The other, for some reason, "escapes" to Athens... is flat-out wrong and so is your conclusion: Could it be possible that Miran invented an escape story so that the people of Athens would have more sympathy to his "charcuterie" and buy more pastirma and sujuk from Miran's place? which is also pure speculation and original research. I suggest you re-read the paragraph because they are is no claim for an "escape to Athens" as you wrongly suggest. As far as your statement: ...due to something horrible which I will not write down here because I do not agree with the term, I suggest that while you may not agree with the term Armenian Genocide, you should also not try to make it disappear by using Turkish terms like 1915 "Ermeni tehciri" because this is the English Wikipedia. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  18:20, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
And having checked Google translate your term 1915 "Ermeni tehciri" actually means the "1915 Armenian deportation". Given that even the Turkish wikipedia calls this "Ermeni Kırımı" which translates to "The Armenian massacre", it just serves to show the size of your POV. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  18:54, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
@E4024:  Please keep your conspiracy theories about Miran Kourounlian's motivations to yourself, unless of course you can find sources to back them up (which I somehow doubt you will...). Athenean (talk) 22:24, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Miran may have started as a poor guy but he needed no sympathy. His pastourma was easy-come, easy-go. Wait, this has a familiar ring. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  02:45, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
But can he do the fandango? Proudbolsahye (talk) 02:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
LOL. Even worse: ROFL. :) Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  02:52, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

The source is in a language I cannot understand. Therefore I do not know when Mr Miran was interviewed; however clients from the 40s must not be too many today. Let's take 1943 as a 40s year. It has been 70 years since then. As it were "war years" maybe people sent their children who were not in military service, say 15 years, to make the market shopping for the family. They should be 85 by now. I believe we should add to the concerned sentence when Mr Miran was interviewed. If it was 10 years ago, that could make more sense; the clients would be 75 years old and still able to come to buy pastirma and sujuk although with walking aids. However, due to high-cholesterol of these products this time they would be buying maybe for their grandchildren rather than for themselves and even for their own children. There is a need to clarify that part in the article. --E4024 (talk) 20:15, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps home delivery? For all I know they may be phoning in their order. And being such longterm customers they must be getting the royal treatment. No need for personal shopping for them, I'm sure. Actually somewhere in the citations it is mentioned that Miran is sending pastourma and soutzouki all over Greece through free mail orders. As far as cholesterol etc. perhaps it's the pastourma/soutzouki-enhanced Mediterranean diet and that red Greek wine, not to mention the climate of Attica which counteracts the effects of cholesterol, including their relaxed way of living. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  20:47, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Our old friend walked every day from Makrigianni to Omonia and back to pick up his newspaper, and on the way, he shopped at Miran at least once a week. He died last year, 92 years old, but I am sure there are still more of his kind. Tough guys, these old Athenians. --79.160.40.10 (talk) 23:31, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
PS: Without a walking aid. --79.160.40.10 (talk) 23:32, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Excellent points. In any case, add to the healthy ones you just mentioned, those on ambulatory care and those confined at home or in the hospital but who still subscribe to Miran's mail-order business or home-delivery service for their pastourma/soutzouki delivery and the numbers quickly increase. The funny thing is all this talk about pastourma and soutzouki makes me seriously consider becoming a subscriber. But before I graduate to full-blown pastourma I'll try the pie first. I heard it had fewer calories. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  02:39, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Miran Pastourma/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: ChrisGualtieri (talk · contribs) 21:53, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

I'll be taking this one. Give me a few minutes. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:53, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Ref #6 is dead - It is archived. I'll add it. [1]
The word "the charcuterie" in the lead is sufficiently foreign that it could use some explanation. Saving that, I'll be moving it to a link since it exists at charcuterie. In the lede another example is "pastourma" and not "Pastirma" explanation, plural? Needs a bit of clarification.

Apparently the link to "charcuterie" has been added and "pastourma" (Greek version) has been replaced by the wikilinked "pastirma" version, so IMO also  Done. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  16:39, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
"In 1983 the unit of the company building expanded by 1300 m2" What is the total size?

 Done. I added the original size of 3 m2 and rephrased to better reflect the source regarding the 1300 m2 which is a factory unit. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  16:30, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
"Miran Kourounlian has stated in an interview that his store has customers from the 1940s and 50s." Bad prose - unless they are time travelers. You mean, "Some of the customers have been patrons since the 1940s and 1950s."?

 Done. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  16:12, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
"Despite the economic crisis which has hit Greece, Miran has doubled the size of its business." - "Miran has continued to grow despite Greece's economic crisis, doubling in size." Is better.

 Done. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  16:01, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Instead of, "Their products also include imported and Greek processed meats, cheese and special spices" try "Milan's products include imported and Greek processed meats, cheese and spices." (Special is a weasel word of sorts, without qualifier or specificity.)

 Done. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  16:06, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
"Real Taste and Style magazine praises Miran Pastourmas as the historical place for those seeking rare tastes and an art which started with Miran Kourounlian and which has been continued by his progeny." Part of this sounds like a quote; it should be quoted even if translated into English.

 Done. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  16:09, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Fix these prose issues and I'll pass it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 22:12, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
All set, looks good. It passes! ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:52, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much Chris for your clear advice and editorial assistance. It has been a pleasure working with you. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις  21:33, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for taking the time and patience for the review. Great to work with you. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:15, 19 July 2013 (UTC)