# Talk:Major League Soccer

Add FC Cincinnati to the table of winners. 0 MLS Cups, 1 Supporters' Shield (2023), 5 seasons. 2600:2B00:7ECE:5B00:8BD6:9E8:BFF7:DF2A (talk) 00:08, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. M.Bitton (talk) 20:02, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

It's fairly confusing to see clubs 'founded' in 1975 only to click on the article to find they were founded in 2007 or similar. The date of the foundation of the current club should be used 80.194.54.138 (talk) 21:39, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I can agree with that. "Claimed founding" years have been added and removed from this article several times. Some of the founding years are quite egregious too, particulary the four clubs claiming to have been founded in the 70s. All of those teams have had stretches of inactivity before a new team was founded with the same name (Vancouver: 1985–86, Portland: 1983–84, 1991–2000, Seattle: 1984–93, San Jose: 1989–95). BLAIXX 14:17, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
The teams and secondary sources use the NASL founding dates rather than the USL ones, so I don't think we should be making that call here. SounderBruce 04:45, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
None of the founding years are cited in that table so it's not really not clear to the reader where these numbers come from. Using Seattle as an example, most sources I see list 2007 as the founding date. I know the club is promoting "1974" with the new logo and the 50th anniversary but it still feels misleading to me and not universally backed up by secondary sources. Same goes for the other phoenix clubs. BLAIXX 14:52, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't know how to edit (oopsies), but as of 2024, Gyasi Zardes is a top 10 MLS all-time goalscorer. List needs to be updated. SlossEdits (talk) 21:52, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

I note that a user changed the heading of a section from Teams to Clubs.  Out of the six major professional sports leagues in the United States and Canada, Major League Soccer is the only one that predominantly uses the term Clubs, as many of their team names are preceded or succeeded by 'FC', where FC = Football Club.  This is also how they are listed on their website. While I'm not opposed to this change, I wanted to point out that the National Football League page went through a similar discussion.  So, if 'club' is the accepted term, then other references to 'teams' should be changed as well. Assadzadeh (talk) 18:50, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

MLS follows international soccer conventions for some terms; in my view, "club" refers to the organization as the whole while "team" is only the first-team squad. They are interchangeable in most contexts on Wikipedia, similar to how ties/draws are treated in American soccer articles, so making a whole thing out of a change would be pointless busywork. SounderBruce 05:48, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for the feedback. I think at a minimum it should be changed in the intro section, the infobox, and the tables under the 'Clubs' section. Assadzadeh (talk) 20:37, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Under League championships, this article states 'As of the 2023 season, 32 different clubs have competed in the league, with 15 having won at least one MLS Cup' with a table below titled MLS Cup titles and Supporters' Shield wins.
List of MLS Cup finals#Results by team states 'As of 2024, 19 of the 32 teams that have played in the league have appeared at an MLS Cup final, and 15 have won a championship' with a table below titled MLS Cup appearances by team.
MLS Cup#MLS Cup titles states the same as above, but with yet a different table below it. 
So, to avoid discrepancies and having to update three separate articles, consider using one format for the table, using the latest 'As of' statement, and then linking to it from the other two articles. Assadzadeh (talk) 18:23, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

For a team name such as FC Cincinnati, should it be listed alphabetically under F for FC or C for Cincinnati? The same for any other team whose nickname comes before the city name. I and @Blaixx believe that it should be listed alphabetically under the city name. However, a user keeps reverting our edits. Here is a discussion between the user and myself. Assadzadeh (talk) 01:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

I only keep reverting their edits as Wikipedia (the site which we are currently on) counts prefiexes when corting teams into alphabetically order. So my thinking is if the website does it that way, that's the way it should be. Also it's how I was taught and what I mostly see in the area around me on the daily 2607:FEA8:4A5C:7600:5C3B:2C24:11FC:FDFE (talk) 02:18, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
I note that you have made the same changes to MLS Next Pro, USL Championship, USL Super League, and USL League One. The fact that all of these pages follow the same format should be enough to convince you that it's standard practice to alphabetize by city name. So, I would suggest that you stop until consensus has been reached.
The sorting can be fixed by adding, as an example, the code {{sort|Cincinnati|[[FC Cincinnati]]}}, which would then sort under C and not F. Assadzadeh (talk) 02:40, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Just ordering them how Wikipedia would order them, got a problem with that order, take it up with Wikipedia. I think we 3 need to stop until other's weigh in. Also before coming at me for making edits on those other pages, if you would have clearly looked at the edits I made there, it was actually following the English alphabet and putting teams into a correct order (prefiex or not)
Also it would still be FC (even if you wanna ignore that's what it starts with) as per Wikipedia alphabetical sorting 2607:FEA8:4A5C:7600:5C3B:2C24:11FC:FDFE (talk) 03:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Is your comment about Wikipedia alphabetical sorting based on a WP:MOS or just your opinion? Assadzadeh (talk) 03:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Both in a way 2607:FEA8:4A5C:7600:5C3B:2C24:11FC:FDFE (talk) 03:35, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
OK, then what is the specific WP:MOS as I did not find one? Assadzadeh (talk) 03:40, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
I am deleting my comments because I'm giving up on this. Y'all win. I'm ignoring the prefiexes going forward and have reverted all the pages I made correct alphabetical re-orders to 2607:FEA8:4A5C:7600:5C3B:2C24:11FC:FDFE (talk) 04:22, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Prefixes should not be counted, similar to how "The" in titles should not be counted; there are software limitations that prevent Wikipedia lists from automatically sorting this way, so this argument holds very little water. That said, I don't think "Inter", "Sporting", and "Real" should be counted as prefixes, being full words instead of abbreviations. ESPN, Fox, and Britannica do not sort these as "Miami", "Kansas City", and "Salt Lake City". SounderBruce 04:49, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
And yet the official MLS site, which I would say has more merit than the other ones, lists them alphabetically by city. Assadzadeh (talk) 04:58, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Secondary sources have more merit due to their impartiality; this logic is also used for policies on common names over official ones, or capitalization. SounderBruce 05:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
So, are you saying that these secondary sources know more about how team names should be listed than the official MLS page? Fox doesn't even bother to list a team's full name if the nickname comes after the city name or doesn't include FC or SC (is it too much to ask to list Seattle Sounders FC instead of just Seattle?), not to mention that they're not abbreviating in some cases (Saint Louis City SC instead of St. Louis City SC), but abbviating in others (NYCFC, Sporting KC). ESPN is better, but also not always accurate (LAFC). Assadzadeh (talk) 05:42, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
No, I am not using them as a reference for the team names themselves, but rather how they're sorted. The same sorting system is also used by USA Today, one of the few truly national newspapers in the U.S. Wikipedia does not normally follow corporate styleguides or revere the "officialness" of their publications as sources; it is preferred to look at how independent outlets cover them. SounderBruce 06:47, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
It doesn't have more merit than the 3 sites Bruce listed (Fox, sure). But having a laugh if you think it's got more merit than the other two. Also MLS and their streaming site (Apple TV+) also display Los Angeles FC as LAFC. Don't believe me, go view the LAFC schedule on the MLS website, heck even their own website displays LAFC.
But if you wanna only have the view of MLS, who are we to stop you. Just know that their view will not be impartial and why this is even an issue in the first place 2607:FEA8:4A5C:7600:5C3B:2C24:11FC:FDFE (talk) 06:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
I thought you were giving up. ;-)
The reason why I believe this is an issue is because Wikipedia articles need to be accurate, consistent, and easily convey info.
So, why would the MLS not be impartial; what do they have to gain by not accurately listing a team's official name?
As for consistency, Major professional sports teams in the United States and Canada lists teams alphabetically without the prefix. Listing them with their prefix just makes it harder to see the grouping of teams that a city has. So, if we're going to change it here, then we should change it there too.
As for easily conveying info, if I'm a casual fan of MLS and looking at the table to see if Kansas City has a team or perhaps remember the name Kansas City Wizards, I would be inclined to look under K and not S.
To reach a comprise, I can live with listing Inter Miami under I, Real Salt Lake under R, and Sporting Kansas City under S, but as for the other teams, I would not alphabetize them by prefix. Assadzadeh (talk) 08:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
I'd just alphabetize them all by city for the reason that you mention: it's easier for people who know that a city has a team but don't know the name of the team to find the team. I see no reason not to follow MOS's practice here. We need to avoid hyper correcting trying to avoid mimicking first party sources. Sometimes there's nothing wrong with them at all. oknazevad (talk) 00:54, 25 December 2024 (UTC)