# Talk:Naborr

I found a page about Naborr
Click http://issuu.com/arabian-horse-times/docs/naborr/7
Horsegeek (talk) 00:38, 10 February 2016 (UTC)Horsegeek

Yeah, we can definitely use that! White Arabian Filly (Neigh) 00:48, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
Agreed, that's a yes. Excellent source.  Montanabw(talk) 02:05, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

I think we could use these too http://www.arieana.com/nbnaborr.html
http://www.oocities.org/heartland/ridge/7799/legend.html
Horsegeek (talk) 01:07, 10 February 2016 (UTC)Horsegeek

The oocities/geocities sources are variable, I try to find other ways to verify material, though sometimes I'll use them if I know the info to be correct but can't verify it anywhere else.  Ditto Arieana; it's a commercial farm site so while it can point us to info we want to use, we'd be best to find better cites.  That said, you might find some sources you can "steal" for Naborr at Wayne Newton, Tersk Stud, Arabian horse, and something I had to toss from another article that's living in my sandbox, User:Montanabw/Anne McCormick.  Also, I have about a dozen books on Arabians in hardcopy, so if you need something verified, holler, if I can't find it, it doesn't exist.  Montanabw(talk) 02:02, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Congratulations on getting this made into a article
Horsegeek(talk) 22:38, 11 February 2016 (UTC)Horsegeek

I just moved it. I may try to get it to DYK and if I do you will get credit too for working on it! White Arabian Filly (Neigh) 00:05, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
Cool 
Horsegeek(talk) 00:53, 12 February 2016 (UTC)Horsegeek

Hi gang, I drug out my books and expanded.  Please check for typos, my laptop keypad is starting to show some wear (especially the e, r and s keys) and sometimes letters get omitted. Hope this helps.  Also found a photo for a fair use upload (note to all:  we can get away with this on deceased people or animals, but not for living ones or for "generic" images) Montanabw(talk) 06:23, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
Will do :)
Horsegeek(talk) 22:59, 18 February 2016 (UTC)Horsegeek

This review is transcluded from Talk:Naborr/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Cwmhiraeth (talk · contribs) 12:24, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

I propose to take on this review, having just read about the horse's Atlantic crossing on the DYK nomination page. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 12:24, 1 March 2016 (UTC)


### First reading
Looking first at the main text, and returning to the lead later:

"He was a homozygous gray stallion" - Clicking the wikilink does not make me much wiser, perhaps you could add a brief explanation.
Ok; homozygous means they pass down two copies of the gene. An explanation can be added. White Arabian Filly Neigh 19:56, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
I don't want to go into too much detail about zygousity here, the impact is basically that gray is dominant and because he was a homozygous gray, all his foals were grays as well. I added an endnote that explains why we care.  Does that work? Montanabw(talk) 07:41, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
"This qualified him as breeding stallion for Tersk." - What does this mean?
Tersk is a kind of national horse breeding farm in Russia. They have, or did have, strict standards regarding which horses were allowed to breed. A horse had to prove itself because, in parts of Europe, they eat sorry horses rather than breeding them. White Arabian Filly Neigh 19:56, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
I rephrased to "His accomplishments at the track qualified him to become a breeding stallion at Tersk." Is that better?  Montanabw(talk) 08:16, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Yes. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:58, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
"He sired nine foals in Russia, but only one, a colt, was registered." - Presumably we are talking about Naborr here and not his father.
Yeah, that can be clarified.
Fixed.  Montanabw(talk) 08:16, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
"restore the Ibrahim sire line to their national studs." - Who was Ibrahim and what was important about his sire line?
Ibrahim was another famous Arab. Maybe put a note there too explaining who he was? White Arabian Filly Neigh 19:56, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, I geeked out there.  Here's the whole tale, tell me how much you want:  Ibrahim was a desert-bred Arabian imported to the Antoniny Stud of Count Joseph Potocki in Poland.  Ibrahim was the sire of the stallion Skowronek as well as some other outstanding Polish-bred horses,  Sadly, Ibrahim was killed quite brutally during the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917...the Antoniny Stud was on the Russian side of the border at the time (its location is now in Poland) and it was destroyed. Count Potocki was killed defending his stud farm.  It was horrible, the Bolsheviks burned his mares alive and beheaded or hanged the stallions.  Skowronek was the only surviving son of Ibrahim because he had previously been sold to England.  The Polish Arabian breeding program was one of the finest in the world but they had lost a lot of their best horses over the course of the two World Wars. So, when the Poles had a chance to get a stallion who traced back to Ibrahim, they jumped on it immediately.  Basically, the main reason the Poles were willing to sell Naborr at all was because they also managed to buy his sire, Negatiw.  (And because Fifi McCormick was richer than blazes and offered them so much money that their eyes probably popped out of their heads)  If I haven't lost you yet, check out this video:  [1] safe to say that probably all the gray (white) horses in it -- and quite a few of the others -- trace to Negatiw.  Montanabw(talk)
Thank you for the explanation. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:58, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Im jumping in here with my 2cents. Naborr, or Nabor, same stallion, was the sire of my mare, TC Naari. The TC was Tom Chauncey's stamp. He and Wayne Newton purchased Nabor. The rest is history. My mare Naari, was amazing. Grey of course. Anne Hornbeak, Louisiana, was my trainer. A nationally known, multi national Championships winner. Naari was an exceptional representative of her ancestry. Anne owned & showed Naari through Prix St George. I was blessed with her afterwards. Apparently, according to stories, Tom Chauncey loved Naborr, and Naborr loved life. His disposition and mind were wonderful. Lovely Stallion. 2600:8807:306:B600:408D:E777:4ECF:839 (talk) 09:28, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
"A total of 27 of Naborr's get were imported from Poland to the United States." - I guess "get" is an appropriate technical term but for the uninitiated, "offspring" might be better.
Get is the technical breeding terminology; maybe adding a note would work. White Arabian Filly Neigh 19:56, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
On this one, we can probably say "offspring."  I think "get" is in Glossary of equestrian terms, but we don't have to get too techie. ;-)  Montanabw(talk) 08:16, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
"to purchase *Aramus, who was a son of *Naborr." - What is the purpose of these asterisks?
In Arabian horses, an asterisk means a horse was born in another country and imported; I think it's explained in the first note. White Arabian Filly Neigh 19:56, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
And we have an endnote about that...  Montanabw(talk) 08:16, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Yes i saw the endnote, and I thought to myself that to be logical, the article's title and all the mentions of the horse should be *Naborr! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:58, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
The sentence starting "Naborr had the distinction of ..." is rather long.
I broke it into two sentences. White Arabian Filly Neigh 19:56, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
"Lagodna was foaled in Poland " - I think you might add "his dam" here, because its ages since she was mentioned!
Yep, agreed and done. White Arabian Filly Neigh 19:56, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Having read the main text and not yet read the lead, I was puzzled and left wondering why he was famous as he had not been a great success on the race track and there was little indication of success in the showring.
Laugh...crappy racehorses can be great sires. Many of his offspring were National Champions. White Arabian Filly Neigh 19:56, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Yes, and, actually, winning two of eight races, all eight starts as a two-year-old, was enough to show that he was sound and athletic; in eastern Europe in that era, racing was basically a performance test; the fact they recorded his fastest times (and it isn't clear if those were in races or workouts) indicates that he had to not simply win, but he had to meet an objective performance mark.  He was only shown once as far as any records indicate, and was second only to his own sire at what was probably the biggest horse show in the Soviet Union in that era.  That was a big deal, like being Reserve National Champion here.  The Russians probably didn't have anything more he needed to prove (remember, it was a Communist nation then, no private ownership of horses to speak of) and the Poles felt the same.  By the time he got to the USA, he was not a young horse, and his flaky rich lady owner didn't want him exposed to the general public, so he really didn't get get out and about until he was 19, at which point he would have been pretty old to show.  Montanabw(talk) 08:16, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
In the lead it mentions "Crabbet ancestry" but this does not seem to be in the body of the text.
Crabbet is one of the six main bloodlines in Arabs, so yeah, it should be in the body. White Arabian Filly Neigh 19:56, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
It's in the pedigree section. I added a mention of Negatiw there.  Is more needed?  Montanabw(talk) 08:24, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
In the infobox it mentions ""Living Legend Stallion" 1970", Perhaps that could be expanded in the article.
Agree. White Arabian Filly Neigh 19:56, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
I sourced it and added a sentence.  Montanabw(talk) 08:24, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
That's all for now. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 14:39, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Cwmhiraeth, I think WAF and I have addressed all your questions, let us know your further thoughts.  Montanabw(talk) 08:24, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
If I were writing the article I would add a sentence stating why the Poles wanted Ibrahim's bloodlines, and another explaining that all Naborr's progeny would be gray. I think that, in any article, it is desirable that technical terms and jargon are replaced by plain English so that the article can be readily understood by an average reader not just a knowledgeable one. However, the GA criteria do not require the article to be comprehensive or free of jargon, so I am not asking you to change it in this way. It would be interesting to have some of your explanation about the Russian era in the article, but unless you had a source for the information I suppose it would be OR. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:58, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
The endnote does say that all his offspring were gray.  That isn't a super big deal (many Arabians are homozygous grays) about Naborr other than white-coated horses are pretty, which is probably part of why he was popular.  Do you want me to move the offspring bit out of the endnote?Montanabw(talk) 23:10, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Virtually all white looking Arabians are actually grey, or gray. They may appear to have a white hair coat, but aren't genetically white. Their skin is black, except under white markings. Black skin for protection from intense desert sun. That being said, there are a very, very few Arabians registered as white with pink skin & dark eyes at birth. The result of a mutation in DNA tracing to a single stallion foaled in 1996. No further genetic testing verification regarding such. So, still, gray is grey is gray. 2600:8807:306:B600:408D:E777:4ECF:839 (talk) 10:03, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
Cwmhiraeth, I added some stuff on Ibrahim, with a source.  I added asterisks to Naborr's name, except where it was at the beginning of a paragraph because I can't figure out how to suppress the wiki markup. (working on it, may have a fix by the time you see this.  Back to you.  Montanabw(talk) 23:37, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
I regret now that I mentioned that it would be logical to have *Naborr, because it was merely a comment, and I did not expect you to change the name all the way through. After all, the horse's name is Naborr, and not *Naborr, which is an American indication of its origin in a foreign land. Personally I would include the information on gray foals in the main text rather than, or in addition to, the footnote, but the GA criteria do not require this, and you need not do it. In fact, I consider the GA requirements are met and will pass the article when you are back online and this discussion is over. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:02, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
I think I cut down the asterisks so they appear only the first time a horse's name is mentioned. Using them every time seemed like overkill to me. Montanabw can revert if she doesn't agree. 😉 White Arabian Filly Neigh 00:05, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Works for me. As for the gray foals thing, LOL, but I can see an FAC reviewer saying "so even though the Syllogism of a) All homozygous grays can only produce gray foals; b) Naborr was a homozygous gray, c) Therefore all of Naborr's foals were gray, nonetheless, absent a reliable source stating that all Naborr's foals were gray, you are engaging in unaccceptable WP:SYNTH."  (Does this mean I have been through the FAC gauntlet too many times?)   Montanabw(talk) 23:23, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Possibly! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:22, 8 March 2016 (UTC)


### Comment
Montanabw just had a computer crash, and is going to be offline for a couple of days potentially as it gets resolved. If all could be patient, it'd be much appreciated -- comments won't be ignored :-) Carry on! Go Phightins! 02:59, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the notice Horsegeek(talk) 17:26, 6 March 2016 (UTC)Horsegeek

I'm back.  Any issues still needing to be addressed? Montanabw(talk) 23:18, 7 March 2016 (UTC)


### GA criteria
The article is well written and complies with MOS guidelines on prose and grammar, structure and layout. 
The article uses many reliable third-party sources, and makes frequent citations to them. I do not believe it contains original research. 
The article covers the main aspects of the subject and remains focussed. 
The article is neutral. 
The article is stable. 
The single image is relevant, has a suitable caption and a fair use rationale. 
Final assessment - I believe this article reaches the GA criteria. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:22, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
GA! Horsegeek(talk) 15:03, 8 March 2016 (UTC)Horsegeek

YAY!!  Thank you, Cwmhiraeth!  Montanabw(talk) 06:06, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
LOL Montanabw. In my video game, GA means golden apple. 🍎  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Horsegeek (talk • contribs) 16:56, 28 March 2016 (UTC)