# Talk:Lion and Sun

This article appears to be making a specific point about Shammash being a Semitic sun god. While the name "Shammash" is Semitic, originating from Assyrian conquers, the god Shammash, and his legends, were derived from the non-Semitic, Sumerian god, Utu. Babylonia's entire pantheon was an Assyrian and Akkadian adaptation of the Sumerian pantheon, and the Zodiac originated from Sumerian roots.
WingedEarth (talk) 18:11, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Invalid license removed. "non-commercial-use only" and "for wikipedia only" licenses are not valid at wikipedia. All content must be free for any commercial re-use. Everything else is a copyright violation. - Aksi_great (talk) 08:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Guys! I might have accidentally removed the code of the image on the beginning of the article, of the golden lion and sun pendant with diamonds. Could anyone fix it, thanks and sorry for the inconvenience!
--Proffiranic (talk) 16:18, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Got it. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 16:40, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
ُThanks
--Proffiranic (talk) 08:51, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Removing section written on Iranian roots of Lion and Sun icon
Before removing such information one needs to note it's reasons. Engheta is a professor in Iranian Studies and his book is a collection of sources which he analyses. He is not the only scolar to come to the concussion that the Lion and Sun has Iranian roots, scolars like Kaveh Farrokh and others have done so as well.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Proffiranic (talk • contribs) 19:20, 8 June 2010 (UTC) 

1. The source is not reliable and cannot be used where Encyclopedia Iranica and Encyclopedia of Islam and Ahmad Kasravi and Afsaneh Najmabadi are used as sources. These sources outweighed Naser Enqeta's book. Naser Enqta is  just a TV-show host in a small ethnic TV channel in LA. He has no publication in mainstream and reliable history journals. He has no publication which has been published by a well-known publisher either. His book is a self-published source. Any of these reasons is enough to reject using his book as a reference.
2. On the  seal claimed to be the pre-Islamic Iranian Lion and sun. Actually, the seal represents the divinity of love, sex and war and not the sun. That seal is Greco_Persian which is reproduction of Assyrian, and Ancient Mesopotamian seals (See here [1] by Prof. Parpola, the assyrilogist ). 
In Mesopotamia the love divinities (Assyrian Ishtar and Sumerian Inanna were associated with lion and the Achaemenid seal is just follows an old Near Eastern tradition (See these Images of Assyrian  Ishtar[2]) (and Sumerian Inanna image[3]). Interesting to know that for all of these divinity, their astrological object was Venus. In conclusion the seal represents divinity of love which itself is the copy of Assyrian seals of Ishtar. Similar Sumerian seals can be found  for Sumerian love divinity, Inanna.
I quote Dr. Parpola's accounts on this seal:
"The Achaemenid seal discovered on the northeast coast of the Black Sea and represents the goddess Anahita, mounted on a lion and surrounded by the divine radiance, appearing to a Persian king. The details of the king's and the goddess's dress and crown are Persian, but in all other respects the seal is a faithful reproduction of centuries older Assyrian seals depicting appearances of the goddess Ishtar to members of the imperial ruling class. It thus illustrates not only the adoption of the Mesopotamian concept of "divine radiance" by the Persians"
For more information you can see Dr. Kurt book [4] or Cambridge Ancient History book [5]
I think these information are enough. I restore the old version before these wrong information were added.Pasitigris1 (talk) 04:03, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

You do not have the right to remove my whole article, just because you don't approve of one of my sources. I use many sources and many statements, either agree that I edit my article or undo the deletion. Professor Engheta uses a satellite tv station as a podium to run his programs, but like any other authority in the field of Iranian Studies, he also graduated in this field and has a history of editing articles and cooperating with both Iranica and continued institutions in Iran prior to the revolution that collected the legacy of Kasravi. His book on the Lion and Sun is a collection of sources and books which he analyses and contributes to.
--Proffiranic (talk) 12:21, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Your source was Enqeta. The rest of your sentences were original reasearch which is not allowed on Wikipedia. You also added many out of context materials. This article is a GOOD Article. It must not be discredited by either unreliable sources or unsourced materials. BTW, Enqeta is not professor. He is only a TV-show host for a small ethnic TV channel in LA. He claimed to have PhD in history from America but he has no degree from accredited universities. Just a small search in theses database and Google scholars shows that he has neither a journal paper nor PhD dissertation. Pasitigris1 (talk) 13:16, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Explain what you meen by "original research" and the reason for the fact that you think it is not allowed on Wikipedia. I use more than only Engheta's book as a source, such as Iranica and articles from BBC Persian. --Proffiranic (talk) 17:56, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
For original research see WP:OR especially the section "Synthesis of published material that advances a position". Regarding the Iranica part which wass removed. It already exists in Safavid section and no need to repeat them.Pasitigris1 (talk) 18:09, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Proffiranic, please see WP:OWNERSHIP. This article or any other is not yours. warrior4321  21:58, 10 June 2010 (UTC)


### Nasser Engheta
Since this author seems to be the cause of this entire discussion, I tried to look up his book, but could find nothing. Is this the correct title and author name, or is it something else? warrior4321  22:39, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
FYI, in Persian Wikipedia where admins are much familiar with Iranian authors. Books of Engheta are not allowed to be used as a reliable source. More than that, I showed that the information of the book is wrong. According to several orientalists the seal represents Ishtar/Anahita and not Lion and sunPasitigris1 (talk) 00:19, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

@Sodacan: Dear Sodacan, I appreciate your design, but I want to let you know that between 1973 to 1979 this emblem was standardized and used on lots of documents. Please look at these images: Former Iranian passport, Standardized Lion and Sun on a flag, On a birth certificate, On official postage stamps Shfarshid (talk) 13:05, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

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@LouisAragon: Dear Louis, Lion and Sun is the former emblem of Iran and the Red Lion and Sun is still an official emblem however no country uses it. There were some Iranian governmental regulations for Lion and Sun design. The one that I added to the article and you undid it was one of the most identical designs to 1965 governmental regulation based on "Y. Ḏokāʾ, “Tārīḵča-ye taḡyīrāt o taḥawwolāt-e derafš o ʿalāmat-e dawlat-e Īrān az āḡāz-e sada-ye sīzdahom-e hejrī-e qamarī tā emrūz,” Honar o mardom, 1344 Š./1965, no. 31, pp. 13-24, nos. 32-33, pp. 21-38, no. 34, pp. 25-40, no. 35, pp. 33-37, no. 38, pp. 21-29 (essential for the Qajar period)" that is one of the sources of Encyclopedia Iranica. This design is based on an Iranian Red Lion and Sun postal stamp. The designs that you preferred have some issues: In this design the lion's mouth and nose is unrealistic and look like a pig. In this design, the sword's curve is incorrect and it looks like a boomerang. You can find the correct Persian sword picture in Shamshir article. These 2 pictures were designed by wikipedians and there is no source to support their accuracy. Shfarshid (talk) 02:22, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

In the Non Iranian flag section we see the Tajikistan flag. 
Since when is Tajikistan not included as an Iranian/Persianate society? 115.70.22.252 (talk) 00:54, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, fixed now. - LouisAragon (talk) 18:37, 12 October 2022 (UTC)