# Talk:John Clough Holmes

The original draft of this article was written for my site, A Brief History of East Lansing, Michigan.  While browsing through my usual sources for a quick biographical sketch of Holmes, I stumbled across these glaring, unanswered questions: Why, after his years of dedication and ceaseless work in getting the school founded, was he so abruptly dismissed?  When Joseph Williams gets a hall named for him after a mere two years as college president, and H.G. Wells has had 3 (!) halls named for him just for being the first president of the Board of Agriculture (the first even while he was still alive), why did it take more than 100 years for Holmes — who spent more than ten years of his life getting the school founded and giving it, as his contemporary President T.C. Abbot said, "a right start" — to have his name attached to what is, no offence to the architect, basically a glorified dormitory among several?
Was he caught with his hand in the cookie jar?  Was he the scapegoat for the faulty construction of College Hall and Saints' Rest?  Was something more sinister afoot, such as mental illness?  Was it merely a case of him becoming too bossy, too covetous, too controlling of a school he might rightly have considered "his own"?  I have found no record that addresses these speculations.
I have submitted Holmes' biography here not only because Wikipedia needed one and so that it may reach a wider audience, but also as something of a honeypot — I would very much like to know the whole story, if one exists, of John C. Holmes' fall from grace at Michigan State.  Professor Harold Lautner, who as the official Director of Campus Planning (1945 - 1969) was a direct successor to Holmes, is the only author I have found who even broaches the question of what might have happened.  Lautner even goes so far as to contrast Holmes' legacy with that of John Harvard, whose donation of a modest library and four hundred British pounds led to a major university that bears his name, in effect implying that MSU's debt to Holmes is far greater.  Yet Lautner, who pored through the official minutes of the Board to write his comprehensive history of campus planning, could find nothing more than the basic facts of Holmes' appointments and dismissals.  For all I know, the truth may be lost to the sands of time.
Kevin Forsyth 16:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Kevin,
This is a very good article. I think I will nominate it for Did You Know?, which features new Wikipedia articles. My only criticism is that it may violate the No Original Research rule. I think that a few footnotes (along with the current references) would go a long way. I'll try to work on it myself over the long weekend. In the mean time, keep up the good work!
Lovelac7 18:13, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Lovelac7,
Thank you for the positive feedback, and I'd really enjoy being nominated for DYK!
As far as the sources go, everything I wrote is based on something in the references.  I've added proper footnotes.
Best regards, and Go State!
Kevin Forsyth 19:39, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I nominated the article. Here's the page. Thanks, and Go Green! Lovelac7 21:30, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Go White!  and thank you! (as they say, it's an honor just to be nominated) ... also, thanks for the image fix, it looks much, much better. Kevin Forsyth 14:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Feedback:

Increase size of introduction it should be 3-4 paragraphs in length and be able to tell the major facts.
Need to have more wikilinks.
was the university in ann arbor not known as the University of Michigan at that time?  If it was, use the name.
Some sentences need to be trimmed, EG "After five years of building a consensus and garnering petition signatures from across the state, Holmes traveled at his own expense to the Michigan state capital of Lansing, arriving on January 14, 1855 for the winter legislative session with petitions and his draft in hand."  This could be broken into 2 or 3 sentences.
I don't like the wording of, "In June 1855 Holmes and the society's executive committee visited nine sites of offered land" but that might just be me.
Give the full name of Holmes the first time you use him, not the second.  Also is there a wikilink for him? Don't ask me why I put that comment down... I think it was fatigue and I was thinking it was somebody else.
"In addition, although Professor Harold W. Lautner makes a point of noting that "who proposed the sites for these first buildings is not answered in any record," he concurs that Holmes' ubiquitous hand makes it unlikely that anyone else made that decision."  Who is Lautner?  And why does he matter? — added brief description of his role as Director of Campus Planning... not sure my phrasing is very good, though. Kevin Forsyth 16:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
"curiously, this meant that Holmes (as secretary of the society) had conveyed the library to himself (as treasurer of the college)."  What does conveyed the library to himself mean?  I'm not sure I understand this sentence. — "Convey" is a legalistic term meaning to transfer property in an official manner.  Since Holmes was wearing two hats at the time, the official transfer of the library took place with Holmes sitting on both sides of the table, figuratively speaking.  Kevin Forsyth 16:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Ah ok... that is interesting... you might want to spell it out for idiots like myself ;-)Balloonman 18:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
The legacy section with the references to the authors you used as resources reads more like a academic paper than an encyclopedia. — Do you mean the paragraph with all the quotes? My intent here was to show that not one, but several historians and contemporaries thought very highly of Holmes. Kevin Forsyth 16:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
yeah the last paragraph, it looks like something one might put in a college paper to show the prof they read something.  The rest of the article testifies that this man is noteworthy and was respected by his peers.
Overall, a good start.  I'm going to put a hold on on this and have you fix it... you aren't that far away from a GA. IMHO.Balloonman 09:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
PS... feel free to accept/reject my comments as needed.Balloonman 17:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Balloonman, than you for your helpful comments. I'm working on this list right now. I should be done in a day or two. Lovelac7 09:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Looks like Lovelac7 is putting a pretty good dent in this list, I've struck a couple more items thanks to his efforts.  Also, addressed a couple of them (above) for further discussion. Kevin Forsyth 16:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Add a little more to the introductory section and this will be good to go...
It's been a busy week at work. I'll work on it more this weekend. Thanks for everyone's patience and help. Lovelac7 21:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
No problem, I'm keeping an eye out here, but ping me on my talk page if I don't update it to GA once that intro is expanded.Balloonman 22:32, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

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