# Talk:Charles Roscoe Savage

The article looks pretty good, but no details of his books? There's plenty of information at Worldcat. I suggest adding them with ISBNs where these exist and with OCLC numbers where ISBNs don't exist. -- Hoary (talk) 05:59, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

I've made a start, but this needs quite a lot more work. -- Hoary (talk) 05:46, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Charles Roscoe Savage/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: KJP1 (talk · contribs) 09:52, 1 August 2018 (UTC)


### Quick fail criteria assessment
The article completely lacks reliable sources – see Wikipedia:Verifiability.

The topic is treated in an obviously non-neutral way – see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.

There are cleanup banners that are obviously still valid, including cleanup, wikify, NPOV, unreferenced or large numbers of fact, clarifyme, or similar tags.

The article is or has been the subject of ongoing or recent, unresolved edit wars.

The article specifically concerns a rapidly unfolding current event with a definite endpoint.

With one caveat that I'm sure can be addressed during this review, the article passes quick-fail assessment. Main review to follow.KJP1 (talk) 09:52, 1 August 2018 (UTC)


### Main review
1. It is reasonably well written.

a (prose):
The prose is of a high standard. Some suggestions below. 
Lead
"who produced images of the American West" - given that he shot other things too, e.g. portraits, perhaps something like, ""most notable for his images of the American West"?
Fixed
"He served a Mormon mission in Switzerland" - it may be the correct terminology, in which case just ignore, but perhaps "He served in/at a Mormon mission in Switzerland"?
A Mormon mission” is appropriate terminology.
"Savage concentrated his photograph efforts" - "Savage concentrated his photographic efforts"?
Fixed
Early life
"Eddington also educated Savage; Savage writes that Eddington" - to avoid the double "Savage" perhaps "Eddington also educated him; Savage later writing that Eddington..."
Fixed
"Savage worked as a part-time mission as a secretary for the Southampton mission president" - not sure what this means? What's "part-time", the mission or Savage? Perhaps, "Savage worked part-time as a secretary for the Southampton mission president"?
Fixed
"French-speaking Italian Latter-day Saints who were immigrating to America " - "emigrating"?
Fixed
"The two were married on June 24, 1856, ten days after Annie's arrival" - arrival from where? I think you've missed mention of Savage's going to the US.
Clarified that Savage left with the Italian Latter day Saints
Early photography career
"In the Spring of 1860, with the Brown Company Savage traveled to Salt Lake City, Utah Territory with his family" - slightly odd. Perhaps, "In the Spring of 1860, Savage moved to Salt Lake City with the Brown Company, taking his family along"?
Fixed
"A year later, after Cannon moved to southern Utah, he established a partnership" - "Savage established..."?
Fixed
"he used the wet-plate collodion process, giving him more control over their use" - this is tagged as "vague", see Quick Review above, and I don't understand it. More control over the production process, or over their subsequent sale? Can it be clarified?
To control the use of his photographs and protect against copyright infringement.
Initial railroad work and trip to New York City
"After having a darkroom wagon custom made, spending $3,400 on photographic supplies from E. and H.T. Anthony Co.," - perhaps, "After having a darkroom wagon custom made, and spending $3,400 on photographic supplies from the E. and H.T. Anthony Co.,"?
Fixed
Art Bazar
"Recognizing the need to develop art appreciation to bolster his clientele in Mormon culture, Savage built the Art Bazar" - I don't understand the first clause? What does "in Mormon culture" refer to? The art appreciation or the clientele?
Mormon culture refers to the LDS religion and its culture. I have switched Mormon to LDS.
"Each one gave him a free pass to ride" - this repeats information contained in the section above.
If you would like I can add it the railroad section but his business (the Art Bazar) is the reason he had a relationship with the railroad.
"Savage took many trips in his old years" - "Savage took many trips in his later years"?
Fixed
Legacy
"His three sons continued running the Art Bazar after his death" - you only mention two in the Art Bazar section, Ralph and George.
added Roscoe
b (MoS):
This is fine but a couple of thoughts. That's all they are, and they don't need to be acted upon unless you wish. 
Infobox - no requirement at all, but many readers like them.
Referencing - I've never before seen your style of putting the book page numbers after the reference within the main text. I find it slightly jarring, in that, for me, it interferes with the flow of the text. Using Template:Sfn gives you the page number in the reference at the end. But all a matter of choice.
Publications - as has been suggested on the Talkpage, I'd certainly flesh out the publication details. Worldcat does have them, e.g. [1]. I think the dates are a minimum.
2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

a (references)
This is fine, but the convention, at least at FAC, is a minimum of a cite per paragraph. There are a couple that don't have this, the penultimate para. of Art Bazar and Family. Would it be possible to drop two in? 
b (citations to reliable sources):
The sources all look good, although I can't check your main, the Richards. But I can, and have, checked the others which support the claims made and I'm happy to take the Richards on faith. 
c (OR):
No evidence of original research. 
d (No evidence of plagiarism or copyright violations):
As we've discussed, there's a high match with this, [2], but there's a considerable tendency for other sites to lift from us and I'm satisfied that this is the case here. 
3. It is broad in its scope

a (major aspects)
All the major aspects of his life seemed covered. 
b (focused):
It focusses appropriately on Savage and his works. 
4. It follows the neutral point of view policy

It's neutral... 
5. It is stable

...and stable. 
6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):
Licensing isn't my strong point, but they look fine to me. 
b (appropriate use with suitable captions)
The illustrations are appropriate and appropriately captioned. For preference, I might have scattered them about the article to break up the text, rather than have them in a gallery at the end, but that's a preference. What I would strongly suggest is the inclusion of a Western landscape. It's his major genre, you've not got one, and there's a good selection, here [Category:HBLL C. R. Savage collection].
7. Overall: 

A well-written article on an interesting personage. And one of whom I'd never heard, so I learnt a lot too. I'll put it on hold for you to consider my comments/suggestions. Drop a note here or on my Talkpage if there's anything you want to discuss. Regards. KJP1 (talk) 15:10, 1 August 2018 (UTC) 

KJP1, I have edited the article with your suggestions and added pictures of Savage's Western photography. I also updated the citation format to sfn. If there is anything else let me know. Also, I apologize for the lateness of my response.Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 16:46, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Gandhi (BYU) - A nice article on a interesting man. Very happy to Pass. KJP1 (talk) 13:17, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, KJP1. I'll start working on the page today and will ping you when it is finished. Happy editing! Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 15:30, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Sure, no hurry! KJP1 (talk) 15:33, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
That's a level-headed and helpful assessment. A couple of comments:

Infobox - no requirement at all, but many readers like them.
Yes, true; but many do not (other perhaps than for people whose achievements are easily quantifiable), and as it happens I'm one of them.

Publications - as has been suggested on the Talkpage, I'd certainly flesh out the publication details.
Trouble is, there were multiple editions, with trivially different titles, etc. I suspect that some of what I've now listed as separate items are in reality different variants of the same thing; but one would have to look at the originals (or, better, reliable descriptions of the originals) in order to be sure. An additional possibility is that some or all of the examples of these laced-up albums had pages as selected by the purchaser; certainly some (many? most?) albums put out by 19th-century commercial photographers were individually assembled in this way. -- Hoary (talk) 05:58, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Gandhi (BYU) - Hi, the "standard" review time is 7 days. Do you need more? KJP1 (talk) 05:53, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

With my "vague" tag:

Unlike many other frontier photographers, he retained the original glass plate negatives of his photographs; he used the wet-plate [[collodion process]], giving him more control over their use.{{Vague|date=July 2018}}<!-- What gave him more control than would have what? -->
The "vague" tag has now been stripped. But the meaning is no less obscure.
If it read simply:

Unlike many other frontier photographers, he retained the original glass plate negatives of his photographs, giving him more control over their use.
then that would be fine: his retention of the negatives gave him more control over them than other photographers had over the negatives that they did not retain. But no, it has a complication that obscures its meaning. (Unless I'm suffering from mild heat stroke, of course.) Just what is the comparison here? -- Hoary (talk) 05:13, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Hoary, I've looked over the article and the passage it refers to and have decided to incorporate copyright infringement as this is why he retained the original glass plate negatives. 

To protect his work from copyright infringement, he retained the original glass plate negatives of his photographs, giving him more control over their use.
Thank you for following up. Gandhi (BYU) (talk) 17:22, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, now it's good. "Vague" flag no longer needed! -- Hoary (talk) 23:07, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

We might add a link to Bust of Charles Roscoe Savage? ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:01, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

That article should definitely be merged with this article. Epachamo (talk) 21:45, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

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