# Talk:Deep Blue (chess computer)

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 15 January 2020 and 6 May 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): The Tanner B. Peer reviewers: Bobaylobor.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:11, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Is the fact that a youtube video was made about this really important to understand this event? Like, good for the guy who made it, but it seems somewhat out of place. Unless it leads to some larger discussion the match with Kasperov, I, at the moment, think it should be removed from the article. Argis113 (talk) 02:53, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
Agreed. This seems more like advertisement. It should be enough if the video author's own wiki page links to the Deep Blue article, should he have one. Ludens123 (talk) 21:22, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Deleted. Also, you can just delete things like this yourself per WP:BRD. Rolf H Nelson (talk)

The claim that Deep Blue contained 700,000 grandmaster games (back in the day!) sounded surprising to me, and does not have an explicit citation. Initially I was sceptical, but having looked through a bunch of the references to the article, I found a claim in the Hsu--Campbell "Deep Blue System Overview" (1995) paper (note date: this was presumably before the upgrade which got it beating Kasparov) that it had "an opening book created from a chess game database with 300,000 games". The paper does not seem to claim that they're grandmaster games, however if you're going to digitise games in 1995 then you may as well digitise grandmaster games, and note also that they are not claiming that all the games themselves are in the system, just that the 300,000 games were used to generate the opening book. Ultimately then, I am not suggesting that the claim is false, but I'd like to use this claim in a talk and I am a bit wary of citing it right now (I'll use the quote in the system overview pdf). Kevin Buzzard.

Was the Prozessor too simple or even in Power Saving mode 2A00:20:3001:91E4:E8C3:6BCC:5765:A6C0 (talk) 23:07, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Deep Blue (chess computer)/GA3. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Bwoodcock (talk · contribs) 03:26, 4 January 2022 (UTC)


### Overall thoughts
The article is not GA quality yet. It fails to clearly and unambiguously address or answer a fundamental question up-front: Is this an expert system, implemented as software on general-purpose hardware, or implemented partially or wholly in hardware, or is it a machine-learning system? Clues are buried way down in the Aftermath/Chess section and in the Design section, but this is a fundamental deficiency in the article. In general, citations are well provided and structured.


### Origins section
The two "Origins" paragraphs need copyediting by a native English speaker.

I have done so. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs)


### Deep Blue versus Kasparov section
Use of the word "upgraded" is ambiguous and would seem to require further explication. Does it refer to more or faster hardware? Further training of a machine-learning system? Development of additional constraining rules?

Added more context. Signed,The4lines |||| (Talk) (Contributions) 04:27, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
The word "mistake" is likewise ambiguous. Is this being used in its commonly-understood sense, as in, Kasparov meant to move a piece from one square to another, but mistakenly moved it to a different square? Or Kasparov meant to execute one strategy, but got confused and made a move from a different strategy instead? Or is this some chess term-of-art with some other meaning? After watching the documentary, it appears that the "mistake" was instead a defensive one, in falling for a relatively common ploy. Yet such ploys would not exist if people didn't fall for them. So the word "mistake" seems to mischaracterize the situation here.

Fixed, Signed,The4lines |||| (Talk) (Contributions) 04:46, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
The attribution of the information about the software bug to Nate Silver is incorrect. Silver's extensive Wikipedia article makes no mention of his having any expertise in chess, nor do search engines find anything of substance at the intersection of "Nate Silver" and "chess." I've just watched the short Silver documentary, and it's clear in context that he's merely reiterating what the interviewees have said, and which they in turn attribute to the Deep Blue team, or are in fact members of the Deep Blue team. So, that needs to be fixed.

Fixed, Signed,The4lines |||| (Talk) (Contributions) 05:00, 4 January 2022 (UTC)


### Aftermath/Chess section
The passive voice needs to be fixed. The repetition ("was the first computer to face a world chess champion in a formal match") needs to be fixed. 

Fixed Repetition. Signed,The4lines |||| (Talk) (Contributions) 03:58, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
Fritz is referred to earlier out-of-context but is internally linked to an explanatory article. In this section, however, "Deep Fritz" is referred to without any explanation. Why is this relevant to an article about Deep Blue? Are they related somehow?

It's relevant to Deep Blue because the earlier mention Fritz beat the prototype of Deep Blue in 1995. In 2006 Deep Fritz (The "Upgraded" version of Fritz) beat a world champion with only searching 8 million positions compared to Deep Blue's 200 million. Signed,The4lines |||| (Talk) (Contributions) 16:00, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
What's a "plie?"

Added info about it. Signed,The4lines |||| (Talk) (Contributions) 04:52, 4 January 2022 (UTC)


### Aftermath/Cultural section
This section seems to be being used as a dumping-ground for trivia which hasn't been woven into a narrative. Which isn't a characteristic of a "good" article.

I've integrated this a bit more into the prose. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:29, 4 January 2022 (UTC)


### Design section
This finally gets to the meat of the article, in a burying-the-lede sort of way. It feels like a discussion of IBM's many cited refusals to disclose information would be worthwhile relative to the much different context of open-source development that obtains today. From a 21st-century perspective, that kind of caginess gives a "they must have had something to hide" sense, lending credibility to Kasparov's assertion of mechanical-turk intervention; but in the context of IBM as a slow-moving company in the mid-1990s, their behavior really wasn't that unusual. Proprietary closed-source software was still the norm, and trade secrecy was commonly employed and fought out in the courts.
The article seems close to GA. A thorough copyedit, some trimming of trivial factoids, and general promotion of core content up to the lede will get it there. A fun read, and the Nate Silver mini-documentary provided good context. Bill Woodcock (talk) 03:26, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

@Bwoodcock: Thanks for your review. I think me and Lee have fixed most of the problems. Feel free to add more comments. Thanks again. Best, Signed,The4lines |||| (Talk) (Contributions) 16:01, 4 January 2022 (UTC)


### Formal review
As a note, we don't use "further reading" if it contains sources used within the article. This is both a repository of Harvard references, and also a general list of references. I'd be against changing the name. I also wouldn't want subsections for the two games. We don't need subsections simply based on things being different, it should be a natural place to split the text. I don't think it's currently long enough to warrant a subsection. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:07, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
That all seems reasonable. Just wanted to make sure you'd considered the options and were making an intentional choice. Bill Woodcock (talk) 18:47, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
We can't really magic up an image of the computer itself if it doesn't exist on commons (the GA criteria doesn't force people to take images). However, we have added an image that may be helpful. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:19, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
Yep, I'm well familiar with the problem, and recognize how frustrating it is, particularly when something's well covered in the news media and so forth. Not looking for magic, just wanted to make sure that it had your attention. Bill Woodcock (talk) 19:24, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
@Bwoodcock Yeah, It doesn't really need more images, plus there isn't really any pictures. I think with the picture we added it's good. I think we have done everything we needed to. Feel free to add more comments. Signed,The4lines |||| (Talk) (Contributions) 19:47, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
@Bwoodcock We have copy-edited the prose. Feel free to check. Signed,The4lines |||| (Talk) (Contributions) 20:22, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
@The4lines: is the use of "drawn" in "it defeated Kasparov winning three and drawn one" a chess term-of-art? One would expect that to be "drawing" in regular English. In the past tense, "three won and one drawn" works, or without tense "winning three and drawing one" but if this isn't a term of art, it seems like it's mixing tenses. Bill Woodcock (talk) 12:06, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
@Bwoodcock Yeah it is. It means when a player has made the same moves, or is about to make the same move, three times in a row. Signed,The4lines |||| (Talk) (Contributions) 15:06, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
@The4lines: I understand what a "draw" is, and (now) I understand the formal definition of it in chess... My question is about agreement of tenses. Whether "drawn" means something different than the past tense of "draw," and what I gather from what you're saying is that, no, that's what it means. So do you want to make the tenses agree, between "won" and "drawn" or "winning" and "drawing"? I don't care which way you go, either is fine, it's just the mixing-and-matching that's grammatically problematic. Bill Woodcock (talk) 15:14, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
Bwoodcock Looks like Lee is fixing it. Signed,The4lines |||| (Talk) (Contributions) 15:36, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
 - agreed. Changed. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:34, 11 January 2022 (UTC)


### Discrepancies regarding RS/6000 platform
It looks like there's some confusion regarding the hardware architecture, which is understandable given that it went through at least three major generations, but I think some clarification is warranted.  This source describes the 1995 state, without going into much detail about which model of PowerStation was used, since that wasn't really the operative part. Then you've got this which seems quite clear, and was undoubtedly taken directly from an IBM press release that would have been checked for technical accuracy before it hit the wires. That says that they went from a PowerPC 604 High 1 to a PowerPC 604e High 2 and the dates match up. Contradicting that, you've got this Summers and Winters of Artificial Intelligence reference, which you quote as saying it was a POWER2 Thin model. Which could also be possible, given the dates, but I can't check the reference because I don't have the paper book. Then you've got a discrepancy between whether there were 30 processor nodes or 32 (I assumed 32 was the correct number and changed the single reference to 30 before I realized how deep the discrepancies were running), and whether there were 512 VLSIs, or 480 VLSIs, or 512x32=16,384, or 480x30=14,400. So, I'd like to see that cleared up with some references that I can check without buying a $600 book. And, yes, I get that all of this is incidental to chess. But not to the subject of the article, which is the first major intersection of chess and computing. Bill Woodcock (talk) 15:14, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm a little confused. As you say, there are contradicting sources. Is there something specific we don't say? We can't magic up a source that disproves one of these sources. You'll have to WP:AGF on the book source. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:36, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
Interesting. The current values were added in this edit in 2004, overwriting previous values, one of which (32) agreed with the other sources. It was an IP edit, from an IP that's made no other edits, all of that predates the citation to a paper encyclopedia which now follows it. That citation (as well as a bunch of others) was added by Renamed user 5097696514 which is a permanently-blocked sockpuppet of a permanently-blocked account. So, we probably won't get very far trying to track that down. Er, no... the blocked sockpuppet just cleaned up and added detail to this previous edit by you, The4lines on 18 June 2020.  In that edit, you replaced a citation to this PDF] which requires a password to get to, but is in the Archive here. This first-hand account is pretty clearly the source of the 30 and 480 numbers. It also says that the VLSI was a 32-bit device, it had about 148,000 gates, and there was a backup FPGA which they included in case they needed to patch the VLSI, but wound up not needing to use. He also says that it was a 0.6 micron (600µm) CMOS, which is very coarse, but was used for automotive applications in the 1990s, so would have been relatively inexpensive. So, I guess the question is, The4lines, why did you replace that citation, and what did the paper one say? Or do you want to roll back to the archived version of the original source? Bill Woodcock (talk) 16:35, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
I went ahead and cleaned it up, so we can get this finished. Bill Woodcock (talk) 18:02, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
Bwoodcock, Hey! Sorry I wasn’t able to fix it earlier, I’ve been busy all day, thanks for going ahead and fixing it. I would like to thank you for the review and the work you did. Best, Signed,The4lines |||| (Talk) (Contributions) 01:22, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
The4lines, Lee Vilenski, my pleasure, glad it worked out, and thanks for your quick responses. I feel like the article is quite strong, and I'm glad that we were able to work through some of the discrepancies. Bill Woodcock (talk) 12:32, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

I just noticed this article... It doesn't have direct bearing, but might be worth a mention regarding what direction things have taken since the time of Deep Blue... What direction that work has sent us. Bill Woodcock (talk) 12:37, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

I restored the longstanding lede description of Deep Blue as a supercomputer instead of the unhelpful relatively recent change to characterize it as an expert system.  Chess playing computers have occasionally been described as expert systems, but that isn't especially common.  The expert system article does not mention Deep Blue or chess playing computers or even any games playing computers at all.  The link to the expert systems page didn't help the reader learn anything about Deep Blue at all.  By contrast, the supercomputer article does mention Deep Blue specifically.  The lede is supposed to summarize the important points in the body of the article, but "expert system" was mentioned nowhere except the lede.  Quale (talk) 06:48, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

You just created self-reflexive nonsense. "Deep Blue was a chess-playing supercomputer run on a unique purpose-built IBM supercomputer." A computer is the hardware.  An expert system is the software.  Software runs on hardware.  Hardware doesn't run on hardware.  And hardware doesn't magically do anything without software.  And appeals to antiquity are just a logical fallacy, not a supporting argument.  Reverted. EVhotrodder (talk) 07:19, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

In the article it says on the 44th move in the first game of the second match there was a bug. The source is also talking about 1997, first game: "[...]referred to an incident that had occurred toward the end of the first game in their 1997 match with Kasparov". This is the first game of the 1997 match: https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1070915
44. Rb1 is the only valid move in this position. There is no other move. Where is the bug?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.250.206.130 (talk) 08:04, 13 September 2022 (UTC) 
It makes no sense to me that Kasparov would be surprised when Deep Blue played the only possible move in this poition. Like, There are no other legal moves, so why should Kasparov be surprised. This makes no sense at all, something is not right here.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.250.206.130 (talk) 08:07, 13 September 2022 (UTC) 

44.Rb1 is in game 4 of the 1997 match. The 'bug' is 44...Rd1 in game 1 of that match. Your Chessgames.com link is game 4, not game 1. --IHTS (talk) 09:56, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

the remark " The opening book encapsulated more than 4,000 positions and 700,000 grandmaster games " sets foot on a big compare that is impossible for a human being. is there any REAL information about the REAL software used? how many moved where result of a giant COMPARE function and how many maove were realy CALCUlated... instead of "holding up to the light and look for that one open pinchhole" but then very, very, very(etc) quick
and are references or links to those computer routines ?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.149.83.125 (talk) 17:13, 2 October 2022 (UTC) 

I don't get the trend of classifying everything that has Alpha Beta search as brute force. Sure there is a large search and the speed (averaged) of 200 M positions per seconds is impressive but it is negligible compared to the search space. There is a great deal of smart pruning, I wouldn't call it mainly brute force.
Sources: 
[1]IBM’S DEEP BLUE CHESS GRANDMASTER CHIPS 
Behind Deep Blue, Feng-hsiung Hsu 
And related articles to 1. Pier4r (talk) 22:15, 3 April 2023 (UTC)