# Talk:Earl Cain

/Archive 1

All right. Here goes. I would like to talk this out with you. I feel that the five-page epilogue should be a summary. We can discuss what it should contain. I also feel that the epilogue should go under development. Let's not fight or edit war, alright? Nobody benefits from that. Kaguya-chan (talk) 21:59, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Talking it out to avoid an edit war or fight was my idea, so...  The epilogue is part of the story.  My statement mentioning Kaori Yuki changing her mind and releasing it is fine for Development, but that's not the place any kind of story summary should go.  I mean, it might be one thing it you want to add that it takes many years after the original story, but that doesn't change the fact that the main summary of the story should go under the Story section.  If I'm looking to learn the story, that's where I would look.  I wouldn't look under Development, because that's not where it should be.  And I did summarize the events of the epilogue, but because it is so short, you can't really just leave stuff out.Yomiel (talk) 22:21, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Okay, at least we're on the same page about the edit wars. I think we have different ideas about summaries, though (one thing at a time)... We'll have to compromise. What about: "The five-page epilogue present only in the bunkoban release focuses on the elderly Mary's death and subsequent reunion with Cain in the afterlife; they finally hold the promised tea party with their friends and loved ones." Let's focus on the wording first and then discuss where it should go, alright? Kaguya-chan (talk) 22:28, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
I don't really see how that's a compromise, though.  It's what you want, where you want.  I'm not trying to be difficult, but I think my summary is fine where and how it is.  It contains only the most neccessary details.  You don't want to make it too condensed.Yomiel (talk) 22:35, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I know you only want what's best for the article and the readers. I'm not doubting your good intentions. I wanted to work on the wording first, then decide where to put it. I understand that all details are important to you, but not all details are important to the summary of the plot. Does the reader need to know that Mary hears the laughter of a ghost as she dies and that her grandson(?) can hear voices in the distance? From a narrative perspective, it sets up the mood, but Wiki isn't a manga or even a book. It needs a summary. Kaguya-chan (talk) 22:46, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
The laughter of the ghost is relevant because it belongs to Jizabel.  It's also the intro to the scene as a whole.  And her grandson seeing the tea party the spirits are having is also quite relevant.  It's one thing to leave stuff out when summarizing a large plot consisting of several volumes, but that is not neccessary here.  Aren't you making to big of a deal out of so few words?Yomiel (talk) 23:31, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Please explain to me how any of the examples used are relevant to the plot of the series, because I'm afraid we have two very different ideas about important details, and summaries. Have you thought about having a condensed version on this page and a perhaps more detailed one on a specialized Wiki, which seems to be more fan-oriented? Kaguya-chan (talk) 21:53, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Okay. Are you still there or am I having a conversation with myself again? If you are there, feel free to offer up a solution instead of continuing to put up your version. Kaguya-chan (talk) 19:42, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Why is the epilogue now in a note? Because it works perfectly. It's still in the plot (which is what you wanted) and only a click away, but will not confuse readers only familiar with the original version. It keeps all the important details (until you find the quote or author's note saying that the boy is Mary's grandson, it remains speculation—which doesn't belong in the article.) Moreover, the plot point of the boy being able to hear voices simply shows that Mary is now a spirit. Kaguya-chan (talk) 19:52, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
You agreed not to change anything until we reached a decision.  You went back on your word.  There's just no reason to make the changes you are proposing.  The epilogue contains all the important details, as does the ending stuff for the main series.  If Mary had married some random guy, then just saying she is married would be fine.  But she married another main character, so it is only right to mention his name in the story.  It's like the Digimon 2 ending.  We're told that the main character Sora is married and that the main character Matt is married.  However, we are not told that they are married to eachother, which I know myself and many other fans consider and important detail, since both are main characters.  This should have been mentioned in the show.  Just like it should be mentioned in the article here.  Why make such a big deal out of a few words?Yomiel (talk) 07:38, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't remember agreeing to any such thing. Look, I'm tired of trying to discuss something with someone who only sees his/her way as the right one. I don't enjoy this one bit. You see a few words, I see a problem area any decent reviewer will bring up the moment this article goes to GAR (which it will at one point). You see harmless details, I see unnecessary fluff. World keeps turning. Could we please work together? I want to hear your solutions to this, okay? I want a solution that both of us are happy with. This is not you vs. me, my version vs. yours.
Lets start this from the beginning, alright. Please work with me here. This is how we will discuss wording. As of now, I am in favor of keeping a mildly condensed version, except the whole boy hears spirits plot point (reasoning explained in a post above). I also would like to remind the readers that it is from the bunko edition and is excepted from the epilogue review made by critics in the reception. I understand that you are a devoted fan and would love to see every detail included. That, however, is not going to happen, so lets focus on the important plot points. And since we can't agree on the epilogue, I'm removing it until we can get our act together. Kaguya-chan (talk) 20:48, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
If it will make you happy and end this, then lets keep the boy in too. The current version now includes a slightly condensed version and keeps every detail except the woman by Mary's bedside. (Can we agree that she is not important to the story?) Kaguya-chan (talk) 21:23, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
You agreed to have a discussion.  When that happens, both parties are supposed to refrain from editing the article until a decision has been reached.  It's just how things go around here.  Going back on this is showing bad faith and is frowned upon.
It's not a matter of only seeing my way as the right way.  But in this case, my summary works just fine.  People come to Wikipedia to read stuff like this, and they don't want important details to be left out.  When you're raising such a fuss about a few words, then it does come off as just nitpicking.  It's not unneccessary fluff, especially considering this epilogue is unlikely to ever be released outside of Japan.  
Where the epilogue came from doesn't belong in the story.  It's under Development, where it should be.  The version I have posted is how I want it.  You already know that.  You disagree.  I hate to say it, but it seems like you think yourself above me, as if you have more right to say what should be in this article than I do, and that's really off-putting.  You're sitting there telling me "this is not going to happen" and such, and I don't care for it.  You want to have your way, even if it means arguing with me over a few simple words.Yomiel (talk) 09:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Are you willing to work out a compromise with me or not? Kaguya-chan (talk) 21:16, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Isn't that what we are doing?Yomiel (talk) 07:09, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm understanding that you do want a compromise. Yay! Kaguya-chan (talk) 13:08, 12 February 2011 (UTC)


### Compromise time
Alright, lets work out a compromise! Remember to keep good faith about each other and a positive atmosphere. A compromise means that we work out something acceptable to both parties.
My concern with the current version (aside from some minor grammar mistakes I'll fix very soon) is that it goes on for about half the length of the summary of Godchild. I understand that this epilogue will never be released to other non-Japanese-speaking fans and you are concerned about that, but realistically speaking, we can't keep every detail. There is a limit on how long the plot summary can be. 
I'm in favor of something like this: "The bunkoban-only epilogue expands the ending slightly. It shows an elderly Mary, who lies on her deathbed attended by a woman nearby and hears the laughter of Jizabel's ghost as he plays with his pet sheep. Sensing a presence nearby, she dies and her soul takes the form of her ten-year-old self, and joins Cain hand-in-hand at a tea party with their friends and loved ones—although they exist as spirits, a boy nearby can hear them."  
I think this version keeps all of the details, but makes it more concise (I am not criticizing you). The possibility of Noel being Mary's grandson is speculation, until someone can find the author's note or quote—remember this is Ms. Yuki we are talking about. ;) Nothing is ever what it seems with her characters. If you want to add in his name, I'll admit that I don't see the importance (unless, of course he ends up getting his own spin-off with Mary, which would be amazing), but eh...that's why it's called a compromise.
So, here is two possible compromises I've come up with (please feel free to add any others.) Both would stay in the plot section.

Remove the header, merge into previous paragraph with slight explanation that this is the bunko version
Put it in a note with explanation that this is the bunko version of the epilogue
Kaguya-chan (talk) 13:08, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Trying to force things into small summaries can do more harm than good.  I read your edits to Shadow of Destiny page, and not only does that undo someone's hard work, it also makes the plot impossible to understand.  You've already seen the version that I prefer.  The epilogue is the true ending of the series, as well as something unlikely to ever be released outside of Japan.  People coming here don't want the gist of it-they want to know as much of what happens as possible. Yomiel (talk) 09:50, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Your actions are beginning to worry me... There are two things wrong with the version you prefer, though. It switches to second-person plural (we), which is frowned upon here, and doesn't warrant having a whole sub-section to itself. (You do understand what a compromise is, right?)  Wiki is not supposed to replace the manga—which is what I think you believe—but give a plot summary and some fun stuff like literary analysis. Also, you may want to check out the manga Wikia. From what I understand, it is formatted like Wiki, but is more geared towards fans. Plus, it's more friendly. :) Kaguya-chan (talk) 12:47, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
Seeing as the discussion has gone silent for over a month now, I can only conclude that everyone agrees with the changes or else they would have spoken up by now. Kaguya-chan (talk) 19:17, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Two web sites, www.s-book.net (www.s-book.net/robots.txt) and www.sequentialtart.com (www.sequentialtart.com/robots.txt), are using the robots exclusion standard to prevent archiving. – Allen4names 18:47, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh dear. Lets hope those sites stay online forever. I suppose that Amazon could replace s-book if it had to, but Sequential Tart? Hmm. Kaguya-chan (talk) 20:15, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

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