# Talk:Moses Hazen

Scott Mingus: thanks for your contributions regarding Moses Hazen. Was wondering why you deleted the section (which I did not edit!) regarding his troubles with the British, etc. It seemed interesting and seems to tie in to a lot of other biogs of the time. It wasn't all as clear cut as it seems with a few hundred years behind us. 
Specifically: "- At the start of the Revolutionary War, Hazen was living on half-pay in Saint John, New Brunswick. He joined the side of the Americans after being arrested by both the United States and later by the British as a spy during 1775. In 1776 Hazen received a commission as a Colonel of the 2nd Canadian Regiment of the Continental Army. His property in New Brunswick was soon taken by the royal government. Colonel Hazen led his regiment at the battles of Brandywine and Germantown."  
Maybe not terrifically flattering, but seems accurate. You don't agree?Student7 13:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Moses Hazen was living in Saint-Jean, Quebec on the Richelieu River south of Montréal,
where the american expedition in Quebec will march on his land, it's in the first reference
Etienne2007 23:16, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't find any info on the taking of scalps at Pointe Sainte-Anne, New Brunswick, though Moses Hazen did lead the raid and got promotted for it. So I have put the citation needed in these statements. If anyone has reference to this especially the annon user who added this paragraph please add. Marc29th 16:18, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Among other heroic acts, Hazen is known to have lead the attack on Pointe Sainte-Anne, New Brunswick in 1759, while in the Rogers' Rangers. Hazen and his men captured six prisoners, killed two women and four children. Scalps from the dead women and children were taken, and Hazen and his men later made them pass for scalps of soldiers whom they chased down at Grimross. This rewarded Hazen with a promotion from lieutenant to captain.
Since those accusation of murder of children are very serious it's appropriate to wait until you get the reference for it ;-)
Etienne2007 23:11, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

The Everest biography of Hazen (which is probably the best reference on him available, but also relatively hard to come by) claims that the raids near Sainte-Anne included scalping men, and rounding up women and children.  It does not specifically state that women or children were scalped.  Everest claims he was promoted to captain of the company because John McCurdy, the previous captain, was killed by a tree felled by one of the company. Magic♪piano 14:44, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Hazen was worse than a butcher of children -- he murdered children in front of their parents in a sick attempt to force them to co-operate with his forces.  http://members.tripod.com/~CyberBart/notes.htm
Also see here: http://fanset8.blogspot.com/2009/03/little-to-celebrate-250-years-after-ste.html   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.188.129.15 (talk) 10:23, 7 April 2009 (UTC) 

Thank you for those links, it is useful that they provide names of people involved in the incident.  Unfortunately, these sorts of links are not reliable sources.  If you can substantiate the statements made (for example, if you have access to this book or this book) and can give page numbers and quotes from one of them that specifically substantiate the claim of attempting to force cooperation, then we have something to add to the paragraph describing the massacre.
I'd also be interested in knowing if there are more sources that describe his actions around Quebec City during the 1759 siege.  (Everest did not apparently find any actions that could be specifically charged to Hazen during that time.) Magic♪piano 12:28, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Putting this in perspective, the Frederickton article says: " The British captured Ste. Anne's Point after the expulsion of the Acadians in 1755, burning the settlement to the ground." So they view it as an extension of the forcing out of the Acadians. It could find no article on St. Anne's or the alleged massacre there. When the British tried to settle a colony there, it failed due to resistance from natives and Acadians. So there were more than a few left. Not that that helps. Student7 (talk) 13:10, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
This book mentions Sr. Bellefontaine's role, but does not name Hazen (who is presumably implicated by other sources that Everest used);  I've asked another editor to help with translating it so I'm sure I understand the details correctly.  Bellefontaine, who was the witness, was apparently leader of the local militia, which would explain why the British were especially interested in him (not that this justifies the cruelty of the act, of course). Magic♪piano 13:40, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

It appears that his older brother John was enrolled as a Colonel in Moses' regiment. He helped survey for the Bayley-Hazen Road in Lowell, Vermont (most likely elsewhere as well). Can't really find a way to work this in. Student7 (talk) 01:53, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Assessed. Added 3 "citation needed" marks (one already existed) for missing citations. Otherwise, this is B-class. Also grouped WikiBio and WPMILHIST under banner and updated both. Djmaschek (talk) 20:52, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

I knew that (having done much of the work to get it where it is); I'd also point that the article is mostly single-sourced.  Other sources deal with aspects of his life (like the major actions he was involved in) and should also be used (although I suspect most detailed research on Hazen is going to go through Allan Everest at some point).
There is one other item that is not so obvious.  Someone (an anon IP, not me) asserted at File:CONGRESSOWN.jpg that the flag depicted is not actually the standard of his regiment.  I have no particular sources that argue either way, but have not checked Everest (which is not conveniently accessible to me) to see if he has an opinion on the matter. (I also think the graphic of the regimental movements is virtually useless; the article could use more artwork.) Magic♪piano 21:16, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

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Dormskirk, I’m afraid that the following passage has confused two separate episodes during the American Revolution - that of Charles Asgill with that of John André.   Would editors approve the revised draft which follows, which would involve removing the emboldened sections?  I don’t know how to ‘strike out’, so have emboldened instead.
Following the British surrender, Hazen and his unit were given prisoner guard duty at Lancaster, Pennsylvania.[54] While on this duty, a misstep by Hazen caused a minor diplomatic incident, known as the "Asgill Affair". The British accused an American soldier of spying, and were threatening to hang him. George Washington threatened to hang a British soldier if this happened, and Washington instructed Hazen to choose an officer whose rank was similar to that of the murdered Patriot  Joshua Huddy.  The man he chose by lot, Charles Asgill, should have been ineligible for selection due to the terms of the Yorktown surrender. The accused American was eventually acquitted, but Asgill's plight drew the attention of Marie Antoinette; Washington received a letter from the French foreign minister asking for a pardon.[55] Anne (talk) 23:41, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

I have made the adjustments. If it raises any further issues editors should post them here. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 08:39, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for the edit Dormskirk.  I should have found a way to indicate that the edit required a small addition, as well as two deletions, so the following still needs attention please: Washington instructed Hazen to choose an officer whose rank was similar to that of the murdered Patriot  Joshua Huddy.  There have been countless times when these two quite separate stories have become merged, so this one is no exception.  The only similarity is that both British officers' surnames began with "A" and both either went to the "gallows", or were threatened with doing so. Anne (talk) 12:46, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Done, I think. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 12:59, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

I was WP:BOLD and trimmed the Asgill Affair details per WP:WEIGHT. This incident was not the most consequential event in Hazen's life, but appears presented as such. There was also much second hand praise of Hazen's compassion and gallantry during the affair, all extraneous in an encyclopedia biography. Drdpw (talk) 22:21, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Could you please correct your factual error here: "who was hanged at the direction of loyalist Richard Lippincott".  Lippincott murdered Huddy on the direct orders of William Franklin, and was therefore exonerated at his court-martial and released to escape to Canada. Furthermore, every single British officer who had dealings with Hazen had reason to praise him.  Poor man, he's not even allowed to be given due praise from those who were there at the time! Which, naturally, you were not, but then you have an agenda of your own - protect George Washington at all costs. This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Cordless Larry, Drdpw has removed a link to my interview - specifically permitted by the Closer on 19.5.22 and also removed the image of the Drawing of Lots, for which Hazen's role was pivotal. Anne (talk) 23:38, 25 January 2023 (UTC)