# Talk:Giving Victims a Voice

The following images were recently introduced (by me) to the article

File:Giving Victims a Voice key offence locations from report figure 1 as reported by BBC.png
File:Giving Victims a Voice journalist outside New Scotland Yard cropped.jpg
File:Met Police Blue Lamp.jpg
and their inclusion was subsequently reverted with the edit summary "rv good faith edits. The non-free images fail WP:NFCC as they are non-essential. The blue lamp is a bit of a cliché and does not refer to anything in the text of the article."
My motivation for including the images was in order to improve the content and make it more relevant and interesting to readers.
I propose reinstating one or more of the images per the image use policy, specifically because I consider that they meet the requirement that "[images] should be relevant and increase readers' understanding of the subject matter [and] depict the concepts described in the text of the article." The non-free content was included with the intention of adding encyclopedic value, being used judiciously and with respect for commercial opportunities. Non-free images are not required to be "essential" to readers' understanding of the topic, rather their "omission would be detrimental to that understanding", as can be considered the case here.
Could File:Giving Victims a Voice key offence locations from report figure 1 as reported by BBC.png be recreated as a free equivalent, i.e. is there sufficient content for it to be copyrighted or is such content inherently free and can it be recreated without worries about such an alternative image being a derivative work?
I agree that the historic importance of File:Giving Victims a Voice journalist outside New Scotland Yard cropped.jpg could be reasonably contested. However, it does depict media reception of the report; the publication of such reports does not in most cases (to my knowledge) generate published photographs of reporters displaying such publications for others to photograph and report on. It can therefore be considered to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic. However, it is accepted that this image holds less contextual significance than the map of key offence locations.
File:Met Police Blue Lamp.jpg may be considered rather a cliché, but I believe it adds some interest to the article, indicating at a glance that the report has been officially sanctioned by the Met. This is a free image, as was noted, and its inclusion does no harm.
Comments gratefully received. Thanks very much. -- Trevj (talk · contribs) 15:14, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

I stand by the revert on this. Neither of the non-free images is essential, and the map could be recreated with a free Creative Commons license. As for the blue lamp, we are not doing Dixon of Dock Green in this article, complete with the "Evening all" greeting, so this is not necessary to illustrate what the subject matter is about.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 15:32, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. As I stated above, the non-free images don't have to be essential in order to justify inclusion. They have to serve as providing a significant increase in readers' understanding. This is obviously open to interpretation, and our views differ in respect of the specifics relating to this article. As for the map, I've now placed a request at WP:GL/MAP. Regarding the free blue lamp, regardless of whether this is necessary, as stated above I believe that it offers information to readers and its inclusion (and size as a thumbnail) is not undue considering the overall length of the article. Therefore, I propose to reinclude this image in the first instance. Cheers. -- Trevj (talk · contribs) 16:13, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
The only image that is worth having is the map, and this could be recreated with a Creative Commons license. File:Giving Victims a Voice journalist outside New Scotland Yard cropped.jpg shows a journalist holding the report, which is non-essential and fails WP:NFCC. It also has a weird crop which does not look very good. In theory, the File:Met Police Blue Lamp.jpg image could be added to every article where the Metropolitan Police are mentioned. It is not specific to this article, and there is no need to show the NSPCC logo either. The report was produced by both organisations--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 08:44, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Having slept on this, I concede that it's unlikely that consensus would form around the inclusion of the non-free images as they were. (The "weird crop" was to omit the face of the reporter, who is identifiable and is not directly relevant to the subject of the photo.) As for the map, we'll see if anyone takes it up at the Graphics Lab. I still feel that the lamp could offer visual interest by breaking up an article predominantly consisting of text. However, I'll leave it excluded. The NSPCC logo is nothing to do with me, and I have no intention to seek to include it in this article, where its use would not be warranted. Thanks for all your comments, which have been helpful. Cheers. -- Trevj (talk · contribs) 09:15, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
The free version of the map (created by Philg88) is now present, so at least that's that one resolved. -- Trevj (talk · contribs) 11:56, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

In reviewing matters as part of the current GA nomination, I've discovered the following sources. I propose to include within the article some additional information from these, although may not be able to incorporate everything within the desired timescale. I propose that some expansion of #Reception and #Consequences would probably be most appropriate. -- Trevj (talk · contribs) 07:35, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

 Now largely included[1] (except https://www.polity.co.uk/giddens7/blog/post.aspx?id=225 which doesn't seem to be WP:RS). -- Trevj (talk · contribs) 11:09, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

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