# Talk:Kin selection

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darwin needs to be in the introduction...
but why not moving fisher/haldane/hamilton to a "history" section immediately following the introduction?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.117.2.51 (talk) 16:43, 10 March 2013 (UTC) 

Well, the situation is slightly different from that. The lead (introduction, overview) is supposed to be max 4 paragraphs, and only to summarize what is written in the rest of the article, so it does not need (aka should not have) references and should not therefore say anything doubtful.
From this, it's clear that this article does not exactly have a lead section at all - it is more of a historical introduction. I'd be happy with renaming it "Introduction" or "Overview" (not sure if it's exactly a "History" - that might mean turning it into 2 new sections ? - and then (someone) writing a new lead section to precis the article. If you feel like working on that, go right ahead. Chiswick Chap (talk)
I agree that the lead is too inaccessible and this is partly due to the involvement of overly-specialised editors who tend to remove any elementary expressions that provide a historical overview. It should certainly incorporate the historic refinements to evolutionary theory that go from Darwinian ideas of competition and survival of the fittest which produces the apparent paradox of altruism to the reconciliation that kin selection provides by incorporating the concept of genes (or smaller units) being the specific replicating units being selected for. Shyamal (talk) 05:55, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Yes, absolutely. All right, I'll be bold and draft a new lead, renaming the existing one to "Historic overview" (to combine the idea of history and current affairs, more or less, agree it's a bit klunky but anyone can improve it). Please improve my efforts. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:04, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

This section badly needs to be rewritten as it hardly can be seen as NPOV (no matter if the factual information is right or wrong).

OK, I've copy-edited it for neutrality. It seems to report fairly plainly what happened. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:57, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Curtd59 (talk) 07:55, 18 August 2014 (UTC) In the context of intellectual history, this section reflects a postmodern cum marxist, cum cosmopolitan advocacy of pseudoscience as part of the postmodern attempt to displace the study of Darwin (See Macdonald, See Hicks).  All creatures in all cases, demonstrate kin selection, meaning limits to transfers, and decreasing cooperation with genetic distance. All human societies no matter how mixed demonstrate this behavior except on the margins where mating across groups produces status benefits, or provides access to superior out-group mates (white males and asian females for example). And applies equally within group to social classes. Cross mating increases with the adoption of the nuclear family structure (fragmentation) and declines with the retention of the traditional family.  Furthermore, there is no conflict between kin selection and multi-level selection, since both occur for different reasons.  The fact that we must constantly defend the knowledge economy against mysticism is one thing.  The fact that we must defend it against politically motivated advocacy of pseudoscience is somehow worse.

All that is interesting and as may be, but this is not a forum for discussing the science or other matters. Our only interest here (as on all article talk pages) is to establish what the article should cover, using reliable sources. If you are familiar with the work of Macdonald and Hicks then why not edit the section and cite them as needed? Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:08, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Article says "If you save a grandchild or a nephew, the advantage is only two and a half to one. If you only save a first cousin, the effect is very slight."
Yet even cats share 90% of our genes, which are rather more distant relatives than a cousin.   How does the math of "shared genes" really work?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.167.63.27 (talk) 04:09, 11 January 2017 (UTC) 

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The first sentence states that kin selection is an evolutionary strategy. I think this is incorrect - Kin selection is a mechanism of evolution in the same way as natural selection. Kin selection operates when interacting individuals are related, and the phenotype of one individual affects the direct fitness of other individuals.
In all realistic populations interacting individuals are positively related because dispersal is limited, and individuals in the same area should have some recent common ancestor. All cooperative and competitive phenotypes will be shaped by kin selection, which makes kin selection the most general mechanism of evolution!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomahawk Tasmania (talk • contribs) 17:38, 7 April 2020 (UTC) 

I've grouped the 'Human' materials in the article under 3 subsection headings. However, too much of it consists of uninterpreted primary research reports, i.e. A studied X, B studied Y, C studied Z: all basically close to useless and unencyclopedic. What we need is 'Hypothesis H is supported by A's study of X', etc. The article already has a substantial 'theory' section but it's only weakly connected to the many post-Hamilton studies, so the article's structure as a connected argument is, well, weak and rambling. We need the evidence to support (or refute) the theory, not go on about who worked on what. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:12, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Please define all variables. What is p? What do the subscripts mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.222.11.194 (talk) 01:53, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Mm, you're talking about the unintroduced and uncited "Derivation" section. You are correct, those variables aren't defined or explained. Actually, at least 10 derivations have been made in the literature, see Nowak et al, 2017 (its refs 1 to 10 each offer their own distinct derivation). The uncited example of a derivation is WP:OR at worst, random editorial selection from the field at best. If editors feel that a section on derivations is justified, then it must tour the field, cite the major papers, and cite secondary (review) articles that compare and contrast the different derivations. Nowak et al, by the way, is not neutral as it seeks to reject Hamilton's rule altogether, a 1% minority view among biologists. I've removed the derivation as hopelessly unbalanced and uncited, without prejudice to the creation of a suitable section as outlined. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:22, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kin selection/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: CaptainEek (talk · contribs) 21:04, 22 January 2022 (UTC)


### Eek's Examination
I'm not quite sold on using Britannica as a source for the first line. I suggest a better source, or perhaps honestly: just remove it altogether. It can be summarized from the article.
Removed, it's redundant.
There is a comment in the Hamilton section, it looks like it needs to either be incorporated or removed
Removed.
"Several scientific studies" and yet there is only one source...I would add the other papers
Reorganised.
"model can be applied to nature" do you mean that the model is verified to work in the real world? If so, you may want to change the wording a bit
Fixed.
Wikilink, or add a parenthetical explanation to "Fecundity" in the viscous populations section
Done.
The green beard section has only one citation and its 50+ years old. I suggest also pulling in a newer paper and maybe ensuring the findings are up to date
Done.
The quote from Stuart West is overly long and dense. I'm a scientist by training and even I just wanted to skim over it. I would probably suggest paraphrasing it or choosing a more select quote
I've actually removed it as repetitive; the PDF is there for those as want to read more.
"The assumption that kin recognition must be innate..." That entire sentence is way too long and complex. Break it up a bit for readability.
Good idea, done.
I'd throw a few more pictures in. I suggest some vervet monkeys, Darwin, and another eusocial insect for starters. If possible, I would try to find a picture of W.D. Hamilton and the shrimp. You might also use a picture of John Maynard Smith or any of the other prominent contributors to the subject. Also, any one of the plant species you mention.
Added, but we must avoid mere decoration.
You have a commented out ref in the last sentence of observational studies, I suggest incorporate or remove
Removed.
If you have access to the Donner party article, I think that would be super interesting to include a more full discussion of
Noted.
You have some parenthetical in-text refs in the Human social patterns section, which should be removed
Removed.
Also, references for block quotes should go after the colon that introduces them, as in the human social pattern quote
Fixed.
per se is a suffuciently uncommon term that I would not use it unless strictly necessary
Reworded.
"fathers" or" mothers" are a bit weird terms when working with plants, given that plants may have several different sex setups. I suggest using a more botanically accurate term
Reworded.
A comment in the objections section says "extremely!". Unless there is some grand need for it, I would remove it or incorporate it
Removed.
All in all, nicely done. I have not yet reviewed your images since I suggest you add more first. Ping me once you've got this taken care of and we'll go from there :) CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 21:04, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

@CaptainEek: – Many thanks for the thoughtful review. All done to date. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:24, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
@Chiswick Chap Thanks for the quick fixes. The images check out. That's a pass! CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 19:53, 23 January 2022 (UTC)