# Talk:Misty Copeland

I was going to review this article for GAC, but I'm afraid I don't have the time to complete my review.  I made some preliminary comments, however, so hopefully it will help before the article is reviewed in full.  My major concern is the status of the prose, which is typically below par.  A thorough copy-edit from a non-involved editor will help spruce things up.
MOS/Formatting

Per The MOS, the birthdate should be written "(born 1982)", not "(1982–)".
Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  15:44, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The "Biography" is not applicable, I feel, since the rest of the article is technically part of her bio, as well.  Would it work better as "Early life"?
Good idea.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  15:46, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
In the refs, there is no need to include "The New York Times Company" in referencing The New York Times; it's fairly obvious.
When the publisher and the work have separate WP articles, I generally link both.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  15:45, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Also in the refs, there are numerous repeated links for magazines and newspapers.  They only need to be linked once.
Unlike the main body of the article, we do not assume the reader has read previous refs and make each fully contained by linking each as is appropriate.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  15:47, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Prose

...is an American ballerina, who is described by many accounts as the first African-American female soloist for the American Ballet Theatre (ABT), which has been described as one of the three great American-style classical ballet companies on the world stage today (along with New York City Ballet and San Francisco Ballet).  Long, long sentence.  I'm not sure from the beginning what "described by many accounts" means; accounts differ?  This can be made clearer.  The background information about the ABT is also not needed here; it detracts from who this article is about.
I have shortened the sentence.  WRT, by many accounts, I have been informed of a dancer who seems to have performed as a soloist once or very briefly with the company.  I have inquiries awaiting response directly from ABT.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  16:12, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
In this role, she has endured cultural pressure and has been described as the "Jackie Robinson of classical ballet". What does "cultural pressure" mean?  It's perhaps a little too vague.
I am not sure how much detail belongs in the LEAD.  I will await formal review.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  16:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
her ballet teachers, who were serving as her guardians while she lived with them: shorten to "custodial guardians"?
O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  16:15, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
After two summer workshops with the ABT, she became a member of the ABT Studio Company in 2000, a member of the ABT corps de ballet in 2001, and an ABT soloist in 2007. A lot of repetition here with "ABT" this, "ABT" that; any way to condense?
Good idea.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  16:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I see a few uses of "Misty" where a pronoun or "Copeland" will suffice; notably in the first paragraph of the body.
O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  16:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
DelaCerna allowed Copeland to go to the club after school until the her workday ended and Cynthia Bradley... "the" or "her"?  If "her", whose workday is it?
O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  16:26, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Bradley invited Copeland to attend classes at the small local ballet school, San Pedro Dance Center, where Bradley taught but Copeland's mother did not have a car and her oldest sister Erica was working two jobs, so Copeland did not accept the invitation at first. Cut into two sentences, perhaps after "taught"?
I cut it into three sentences.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  16:28, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
She soon moved back in with her mother in a motel in Gardena, California.[10] She and her mother soon signed a management contract and a life-story contract and Copeland moved in with Bradley. Repetitive wording ("soon" x 2)... maybe, "Soon after she and her mother moved to a motel in Gardena, California, they signed a management contract..."?
O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  16:33, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The competition was held at the Chandler Pavilion on March 24, 1998, and she says it was the first time she ever battled nervousness: "said", past tense.
Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  16:43, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The winners were awarded scholarships between $500 and $2500. Repetitive; "the winners received"?
I am not sure why it is repetitive, but I changed it because it was passive.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  16:47, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The contest was among gifted high school students in Southern California... this should be explained when the contest is first introduced.  Otherwise, it's very confusing; I thought this was about a second competition!
That's as far as I got.  If you have any questions about my comments/suggestions, please let me know via my talk page.  Best of luck, María (habla conmigo) 15:02, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Misty Copeland/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
GA review (see here for criteria)
It is reasonably well written.
a (prose):  b (MoS): 
Many of the wordings and sentence orderings aren't comfortable.  For example, in the lead a sentence about ABT separates sentences about Kimball and Jackie Robinson.  Likewise, in the Custody case section, the timeline goes from 98 to 2000 and back to 98.  Likewise, Bartell has been named, but then "the lawyer who delivered her to the police station filed emancipation papers."
I will respond to any specific complaints.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  06:55, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR): 
What is "cultural pressure"?
I have reworked the sentence.  I hope it is in better context now.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  06:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects):  b (focused): 
Maybe it's just me, but it seems like there's a large amount of non-ballet info here.  Reading this article, I'd like to know more about her career; I think the article does a good job of covering peripheral issues... but perhaps to the extent of obscuring her career.
In truth, I am not knowledgeable enough about ballet to glean anything more about her ballet career from the numerous NYT articles cited.  However, the most interesting part of her ballet career is the early portion that is in the separate custody case section.  Are you not counting this part of the article as part of her career.  If you exclude that, there is are still about 4500 characters of text on her ballet career alone.  I have entire Good Articles with less text.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  21:24, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias: 
"As an African-American woman, she is an extremely rare talent in her field,[22] and although she has been shielded from several issues, she endures the difficulties of cultural isolation as the second African-American ABT soloist ballerina." and "She also feels that since the ballerina is the focus of the ballet her role as a trail-blazing performer and role model has extra significance." seem to be praising her and representing her view more than I would expect from an encyclopedia article.  Don't say what she feels, say what she's been quoted as saying.  Do be more specific about what cultural isolation is, and how it applies to her specifially.
Actually, I think this is very subtly worded compared to Jackie Robinson's article, which explicitly says "players called Jackie a "nigger" from their dugout, and yelled that he should "go back to the cotton fields."  This is because the primary sources address the issues in a subtle and refined way.  We don't know what specific things she is being shielded from.  They could be calling her a Dancing monkey or some things much worse behind her back (or even under their breath or directly to her face).  We don't know.  They could be discriminating against her in others ways.  All we have are the subtle primary references and there is not much more we can say.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  21:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
It is stable.
No edit wars etc.: 

It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions): 
Are there truly no free images of her?
ABT has emailed me two great images, but has not been able to provide proper licensing for them.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  05:59, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Overall:
Pass/Fail: 
You've got an interesting article here.  It's got plenty of references, but I think it needs copyediting before it's truly a good article.  I find that sometimes I need a separate set of eyes to copyedit my articles after I've poured myself into referencing them properly, and I think you're likely in the same boat here.  ON HOLD for at least a week for you to look over the issues. Jclemens (talk) 02:53, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I am very open to your editorial suggestions, if you have specific ones.  It is quite normal to post a listing of such suggestions during the hold process.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  21:43, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


### 10/2 re-review
In an effort to provide specific suggestions, here are a set of items for copyediting:

First sentence in the lead uses "described" twice... Avoid that.
O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  23:48, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Last sentence, first paragraph of lead, uses "she has endured the cultural pressure associated it"--suspect a "with" is missing?
Correct.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  23:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
"The first person to notice Copeland's natural presence and skill was her drill team coach, Liz Cantine" First person ever? Or just the first one to introduce her to formalized movement training?
See the first two paragraphs at http://archive.southcoasttoday.com/daily/11-98/11-01-98/e08li161.htm.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  01:13, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
"However, Copeland's mother did not have a car, and her oldest sister Erica was working two jobs. Therefore, Copeland did not accept the invitation at first.[13][12]"  This can be one sentence.
O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  01:15, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
"By the age of fourteen, Copeland was the winner of a national ballet contest and won her first solo role."  Which contest?  Which role?  The answers should follow in the next sentence.
I am at the mercy of the secondary source, which does not offer clarification.  I am not sure from the rest of the refs, which awards and roles this one is talking about.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  03:37, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
"The Bradleys introduced her to books and videos about ballet and cultural fares such as Shrimp scampi."  How is this relevant or encyclopedic?
I think it gives context to their relationship.  We know they were her dance teachers, but this tells about their relationship.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  01:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
"A larger role in Don Quixote and a featured role in The Chocolate Nutcracker, an African American version of the tale that was narrated by Debbie Allen soon followed." I think you need a comma after Allen.
Correct.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  03:01, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
"Copeland's victory secured her the recognition as the best young dancer in the Greater Los Angeles Area." Seems a bit more exuberantly positive about her than an encyclopedia should be--sounds like a fan wrote it.
I clarified who these thoughts come from.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  03:12, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
"In 1998, there was a controversy involving her custody." That's passive voice, and an unnecessarily weak phrasing to open a paragraph.  Do be neutral in voice, but don't be wimpy. :-)
Is that better?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  03:21, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
"Eventually in 1998 Copeland," 'Eventually' seems like a strange word to describe events that appear to have happened later in the same year.
O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  05:10, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
"Copeland, who had been declared the best dancer in Southern California,"  Strike the parenthetical clause--you said that above.
O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  05:13, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
The whole "Custody case" section is still not chronological.  Order of events should not require detailed reading, and you give the outcome of the case in the middle of the allegations.
It should be a lot better now.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  04:06, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
"During Copeland's entire American Ballet Theatre career until 2008" So does that mean in 2008 another African-American woman was hired?
Is it more clear now?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  05:19, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
"she is an extremely rare talent in her field" Again, sounds like fan writing, and could be more neutral/encyclopedic.
Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  03:28, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
"Every program that Copeland auditioned for made her an offer for the summer of 1999"  That's a misplaced modifier.
Not sure what was wrong, but gave it a shot.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  03:24, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
"She studied at the Summer Intensive Program"  Is that a proper noun?
I believe so.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  05:23, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
"She is one of the youngest soloists"  in what context?  ABT? USA? 2007 in Ballet? Worldwide in recorded history?
ABT, I believe.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  03:06, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
There are probably more than these--that is what I have time to go through in detail right now.  I've essentially reconfirmed my impression that comprehensive copyediting is needed here.  I think you have everything it takes to have a great article, but the indicated issues (and similar ones) are currently holding it back. Jclemens (talk) 01:21, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


### 10/6 re-review
Based on the extensive copyediting needed, I've just gone ahead and done it.  I've included a couple of tags, but I'm pretty sure that I've correctly refactored everything that I didn't tag.  Feel free to correct anything I've boogered up.
However, this disqualifies me as a reviewer, so I'm marking this as needing a second opinion. Jclemens (talk) 07:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I see you added two tags.  The first, which is at paragraph two of the first section of the main body, is without explanation in the secondary source.  It is not clear to me if this is the Spotlight Awards or another contest.  The other one seems to be requesting an explanation of the law beyond what is in the given secondary source.  This may or may not be a reasonable request, but I do not know California law and do not know that I should be required to for a GA on this topic.  I think the second tag should be removed.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  12:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


### Second Reviewer
Hi!  I'll look over this article to give a second opinion, and should have the full review soon. Dana boomer (talk) 17:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Prose/MOS:
The lead should be a summary, no references, yada, yada, yada...Tony, you've heard my spiel recently...ask if you want more detail :)
There are two accepted styles of WP:LEAD.  Either fully cited or fully uncited with all facts cited elsewhere in the main body.  I am using the fully cited version here.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  05:14, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
It would be nice if you could find the ballet contest she won that is tagged in the Early life section, if not, just remove the tag...it's not a huge deal.
Removed.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  05:15, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
I did some editing work on the bit about the restraining order in the second paragraph of the Custody case section to clarify who asked for the restraining order.  Please take a look at it and make sure I haven't changed anything important or made anything go against what the source says.
Looks good.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  05:17, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Is there a reason that there is a Dancer infobox filled out and then hidden in the ABT section?
I could not get the template to work.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  18:23, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Is there a reason for all of the hidden text in the Corps de Ballet subsection?
I think that was two sections of text copied from the sources at the beginning of each paragraph that I intended to incorporate in the article as needed.  I never checked on whether I had incorporated everything that was necessary.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM)  18:26, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
This looks like a very nice article.  The issues above are minor, and so it shouldn't take that much work for this article to be in a place to be promoted to GA. Drop me a note here or on my talk page if you have any questions. Dana boomer (talk) 18:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Everything looks good, so I am passing the article to GA status. Nice work! Dana boomer (talk) 15:47, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
It does not look good at all. She is a real talent and deserves a better effort than what was given in this article. Someone who knows at least something about ballet needs to go over this and fix errors and more research is needed. Gingermint (talk) 23:35, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

The article constantly referred to her as a "ballerina." She is actually a danseuse. She wants to become a ballerina. Now, I am not a giant fan of ballet, but even I know that it is the height of childish ignorance to think that a ballerina is just a female ballet dancer. The writing of this article could be better and really needs a going-ver by someone who actually knows something about dance and, particularly, ballet. It is also pretty shy on research. Gingermint (talk) 23:28, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Now that she has been promoted to principal dancer, she is a ballerina. --Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 19:57, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

In the lead section (although not necessarily the body), I'd suggest "Copeland became the first Black woman" rather than "Copeland became the first African American woman". Professional dancers tend to move between countries quite a lot, and in this context "first African American" could give the impression—partcularly to non-US readers to whom the term "African American" isn't as familiar—that there had been other black women to hold the position and she was just the first to be a US citizen. ‑ Iridescent 20:35, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Iridescent, right now lets try to keep commentary centralized at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Misty Copeland/archive1 where the attention is now.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:23, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
Sure, can do—I posted here as it's not really a FAC issue, and I know from experience that FACs with a lot of discussion sometimes put other people off participating. ‑ Iridescent 00:27, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
This is a problematic thought on many points. The first is that Misty has already traveled the world as part of ABT, an American company, and did not change her racial heritage or her national citizenship. If either of those change in the future, than maybe this point mught hold water, but currently it does not.  Secondly, if we change this for Misty for this reason, then we have to go around not just Wiki, but a great many other publications and cultural papers and books to make sure no other African American's ethnicity is misunderstood by non-Americans.  Why stop at Misty?  However, we could hand people a digital copy of her DNA and this could still be misunderstood, due to language barriers, if nothing else. The solution offered by Iridescent could in no way solve the problem she suggests. Third, the most polite term really goes back to asking the person what they choose to honor for their lives.  On Misty's on website she chooses African American.  "Rising star Misty Copeland makes history as the first African American Female Principal Dancer with the prestigious American Ballet Theatre." Mistycopeland.com
2601:147:C002:D83A:9119:D26F:59A4:1D1D (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 11:26, 20 February 2017 (UTC) 

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Can anyone find a reliable source for this new book to be released on September 27.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:10, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

The publisher's page is sufficient evidence that it exists, but I don't see any reviews yet.  They've got to be coming soon. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:33, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
One she wrote:
https://www.amazon.com/Life-Motion-Ballerina-Misty-Copeland/dp/1476737983
Coauthored:
https://www.amazon.com/Firebird-Misty-Copeland/dp/0399166157
photography book:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/misty-copeland-photo-book_us_57e2a14ae4b0e28b2b5161b4  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:147:C002:D83A:9119:D26F:59A4:1D1D (talk) 11:32, 20 February 2017 (UTC) 

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The main omission in this article, IMO, is a "Reputation" section that describes the reception of Copeland by reputable ballet critics at various stages of her career. If anyone feels able to provide this, then I think the article could be updated and brought to FAC. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:14, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Ssilvers, I was about to ping you about this page being kept up to date. I know you have eyes on this page, but was wondering if you have time to update the last two years of her career. I wonder why you think it is any more ready for FAC than it was in the 2016 nom otherwise as well.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:31, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
The main problem I had in 2016 (not the only one, but by far the biggest one) was that there was no reputation section.  If there were a good reputation section, I think we could push it towards FAC. Without a reputation section, frankly, I don't think it should be GA. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:59, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

https://mistycopeland.com
https://www.abt.org/people/misty-copeland/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ8ErQgDyWNJJqun803FkQw
https://www.biography.com/people/misty-copeland
Pretty.Pointe (talk) 02:37, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

I see that the "Infobox" on this isn't being displayed like it should. What's wrong? All is see is this: "Template:Infobox dancer= Misty Copeland." Why isn't it displaying properly like it should? Could it be fixed by anyone who knows how to fix it?  - Frschoonover, Feb. 24, 2020

Please sign your Talk page contributions by adding four tildes, which will automatically add your name and the date stamp.  Also, it's best to keep your talk page comments together in one paragraph to make the Talk page easier to read.  To answer your questions, the problem was caused by some silly vandalism. I've reverted the changes. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:00, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
 Done Eruditess (talk) 05:34, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
misti is the best  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6011:7840:F598:4847:5925:1022:56B (talk) 18:58, 21 February 2021 (UTC) 

What college(s) did Miata Copeland go to. 2600:1700:2730:35C0:D531:F742:DE10:9E85 (talk) 22:23, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

As the article notes, Misty Copeland performed with ABT immediately after High School.  She did not attend college.  She holds an honorary doctorate from the University of Hartford.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:59, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Who is the author for this source? When was the last time this source was updated? All of this information needs to be listed. Im going to call your manager because this is unexceptable to post online for a bunch of innocent people to read, when are just read false information. 184.185.105.110 (talk) 14:30, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

None of your questions are answerable (which source?) and none of your criticism is actionable. If you point out any specific errors or deficiencies in the article, editors can take a look. Schazjmd (talk) 19:10, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

 This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 May 2024 and 20 July 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): LiztheTanner19 (article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by LiztheTanner19 (talk) 01:41, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

this article needs:

More detail about her career since about 2015, which is when this article last got a lot of attention; and
A "Reputation" section that summarizes what the professional critics have written about her performances, and what writers have said about her technique and reputation.  An example of this sort of section can be seen here: Laurence Olivier#Technique and reputation. -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:43, 22 July 2024 (UTC)