# Talk:Budd Metroliner

I see a brief blurb was mentioned about Metroliners being converted into unpowered cab cars, but what about full conversions into cabless coaches and cafe cars?

Made a number of edits, Which were reverted. I changed them back, with justification below: 
1. They were not pairs. I have seen photos of 5 car trains running on the corridor. Here is a 3 car Keystone:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/trains_gg1/2531509923/
2. In the 1980s rebuild, 8 cars were made into trailer coaches not cabs, Specifically 814 818 880 882 884 885 888 and 889
3. Many more than 6 cab cars were reactivated for the keystone. Prior to the push pulling of the keystone, there were 6 active cabs. After, there were 17, although it would be hard to attribute all of them to the Keystone. 
4. Relatively few remain at Bear. Most unconverted cars were scrapped in 2002-4. Most converted cars stored in Bear were reactivated. Some of the Coach conversions are stored in Beech Grove. 
2604:2000:C6AC:D00:788F:6D19:2935:9C81 (talk) 16:43, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

They were not pairs, but they were intended to be run as pairs ("Civil Union" type married pairs, like PATH cars).  I made edits accordingly.  You can review this video [1] which shows even car trains of Metroliners in service with alternate pantographs dropped due to the presence of a jumper between the B ends. Trainset lengths were almost always 4, 6 or 8 cars,  Regarding the other edits it was too much of a jumble with the pair stuff so I had to back it all out.
All the cab cars were converted in the 80's for West Coast (Surfliner etc) service, Midwest Service and Atlantic City service. When the Keystone went push-pull the announcement was that 6 cab cars were being rebuilt for the service, whatever that means.
Google satellite confirms 9 Metroliners stored at Bear and that might not include #9709 which has the roof hump and Phase II paint.  I wouldn't call 9/10 cars out of 61 an insignificant number.Sturmovik (talk)

The text implies that Amtrak bought Penn Central's 49 Metroliners and leased the 12 Budd Metroliners. A GAO report from 1976 states that Amtrak was still leasing all 61 cars. Mackensen (talk) 01:02, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Pardon me, but I altered your comment because ref groups don't work on article talk pages without a reflist template, which interferes with the automatic generation by section of the footnotes that talk pages have. As for the material itself, that does seem like a pretty definitive reference for that point. Wonder when Amtrak took full possession. Maybe they were transferred over along with the NEC ownership on Conrail day? It'd be interesting to find out exactly, but it is a bit trivial too. oknazevad (talk) 01:47, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
I skimmed the text of the Railroad Revitalization and Regulatory Reform Act and didn't see it called out, but that's not dispositive. I didn't see mention in the 1976 Amtrak annual report either. Mackensen (talk) 03:21, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Hm, indeed. I was just throwing it out there as a guess. Maybe, for all we know, Amtrak still pays a tiny lease to Penn Centeal's successor. That'd be wild. oknazevad (talk) 11:32, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
This ICC report from 1978 still shows leases on the Metroliners (p. 64). I think the other line items might be borrowing, but we know the Metroliners were leased. Interestingly, the Penn Central lease is dated 4/76, so something must have happened around the time of the 4R act. Mackensen (talk) 13:24, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Hearings from 1974  (p. 41) confirm the basic chronology in Baer; Amtrak leased the Penn Central Metroliners on startup and leased the 12 Budd Metroliners on September 8 (for $60,000 / month). As an aside, this is a story we haven't really told on Wikipedia yet: the opening round of leasings and eventual purchase of certain cars. I think I have enough sources to tell it, but it's not at the top of my list yet. Mackensen (talk) 13:33, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Amtrak's 1973 Annual Report discusses the state of the Metroliners:

Sixty—one Metroliner cars are used in Amtrak's high—speed service between Washington and New York and New Haven. Amtrak leases twelve of these cars directly from the Budd Company. Penn Central leases the remaining 49 cars from a bank, and Amtrak has been reimbursing Penn Central for the amount of its lease payments. Penn Central contends that Amtrak is obligated to acquire Penn Central's leasehold interest and that Amtrak should pay a greater amount than the current lease payments.
I think that's dispositive. Whether Amtrak ever owned the Metroliners, it didn't in 1971. Mackensen (talk) 16:57, 19 November 2017 (UTC) Edited to add, I've found the original lease recordation with the ICC from 1968, which was amended in 1976 to indicate that Conrail assumed the lease from Penn Central. That lease is dated 4/1/1976, which would appear to be the same lease taken over by Amtrak. Mackensen (talk) 18:04, 19 November 2017 (UTC)