# Talk:Charles XI of Sweden

Removed: "His cruelty earned him the name of Charles the Peoplemurderer in Scania." What is the source of this statement, which I never have heard of? Den fjättrade ankan 23:10, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
Removed: "Charles XI was however very harsh to the local population of occupied Scania, only 20 years earlier a Danish heartland, and in his diary it can be read that he had plans on deporting the population to Balticum."
What is the source of this statement? Den fjättrade ankan 23:20, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

I put those sentences there, and my source was susning.nu. I can understand that you want a more reliable source; I'll try to see if I can find one. That statement needs a better and larger context anyway. ✏ Sverdrup 10:55, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
an addition:
I do however defend the inclusion of this information, since we have a policy of NPOV. Still today swedish history classes and textbooks are very POV, and not a good single source for a NPOV Wikipedia article. ✏ Sverdrup 11:03, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
NPOV does not mean presenting myths or factoids as facts. I don't agree that "swedish history classes and textbooks are very POV", at least not in a Swedish nationalist way, on the contrary, they are mostly NPOV, especially regarding nationalism. Most current Swedish historians are Marxists, anti-nationalistic, and anti-royalistics, and does not try to conceal cruelties of Swedish kings, on the contrary they try to exaggerate them. This talk about "Charles the Peoplemurderer" is never heard of. To me it sounds very much like the myth about Christian the Good. Den fjättrade ankan 18:50, 27 May 2004 (UTC) (Som finner det mycket märkligt att diskutera svenska förhållanden med en annan svensk på engelska. Jag tror knappast att någon annan än svenskar bryr sig om denna artikel. Men det är ju på engelska Wikipedia, så då måste man ju skriva på engelska.)
Danes and Skåninge might. Eradicating all mentions of the genocides Karl XI performed in Skåne (ordering every man between 16 and 60 killed, for example) is history revision that still seems to be taught in Swedish schools.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.38.109.246 (talk) 18:43, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
The statement has been reinserted, only high swedes from Stockholm or other northern parts try to deny the true history of Charles XI, the man hailed wrongfully as a hero up north is most certainly not down south, last evidence of this statement is the Scanian objections to the Swedish 500kr bill which had Charles XI's picture portrayed, calling him ' Charles Peoplemurderer'
Gentlemen, I do not believe "peoplemurderer" is a proper English word. I have failed to find it in any dictionary I own. The English word for "folkmord" is "genocide". Presumably, you can indicate the person making it by calling him "genocider". Concerning Charles XI's treatment of rebels supporting the Danish king in Nothern Skåne, he acted with very harsh, even terroristic counter-guerilla methods (such as holding entire villages responsible for acts of rebels in the vicinity and executing captured rebels in cruel ways). However, as far as I can make out this was entirely within the conventions of warfare at that time. As far as Charles XI was concerned, nominally Swedish people working for the Danish king were rebels and traitors and did not even enjoy the limited right granted to prisoners of war at that time. Most monarchs of this era facing a peasant rebellion would have used methods fairly similar to the ones used by Charles XI during the Danish war. -Sensemaker

A remarc: I think very few monarchs of this period can avoid being kalled massmurderers, if we use the modern definition. --85.226.44.74 (talk) 11:38, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Long ago in various UseNet threads a few people came forward with the information that this king had sponsored an effort to domesticate moose for military use, presumably as attack cavalry – with sharpened horns, good for pack burdens, and potentially aggressive in the field; also twice the size of a war horse).  Apparently they turned out to be useful for messengers only, and the project fell through because there weren't enough of them, and they're hard to breed in captivity...and according to the trivia section of the Moose article there were worries that they'd allow thieves and other criminals to outrun law enforcement types using only horses.  Does anyone here know where a cite or further details for this would be found?Skookum1 02:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I am going to review this article. Kensplanet (talk) 17:34, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Checkout the Good article criteria here.
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Comments
LEAD

Charles XI (Swedish: Karl XI, 24 November 1655old style – 5 April 1697old style
It's a bit difficult for a user like me to understand what old style means. Instead of old style, wh don't you directly put Julian Calender. Anyway, not a major problem since that is indicated by the footnote.
Charles XI was succeeded by the only son that reached adulthood, Charles XII, who made use of the well-trained army in battles throughout Europe.
Please copyedit this sentence.
I think the article satisfies good article criteria. The article will have to be more comprehensive for FA status. Good work for GA. I'll gladly promote this article. Thanks, Kensplanet (talk) 06:53, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is not a proper method to maintain the old style of date as its current date. While as a writer of history, one would want to include a referral to it, it should not be maintained as the actual date for the occurrence. So, I am noting here that it should be retained in the article but not in the format that it currently is. I am going to change this to reflect a more responsible presentation. Stevenmitchell (talk) 11:31, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
It is certainly standard to use the Julian calendar for times when it was in use. Cervantes and Shakespeare both died on April 23 1616, but over a week apart. As both England and Sweden were still using the Julian calendar during his lifetime, it is the appropriate calendar to use here. Compare e.g. his contemporary William III of England.
Andejons (talk) 14:50, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

There should be a least something in the article about the fact that he was deply devoted to his mother his entire life: this was the reason to why his wife was put below his mother at court. It need only be one sentence. And here is one anecdote: During his first appearances in parliament, he talked only to the members of the government through her; he would whisper the questions he had to the parliament to her, and she would ask them loud and clear.
reference: * Herman Lindqvist, Historien om Sverige: Storhet och Fall (History of Sweden; Greatness and fall) (in Swedish)
This is a charming anecdote, which gives a personal and authentic feeling to it!--85.226.44.74 (talk) 15:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Of course, this is an important thing to mention, as it describes their relationship and her influence and position. I have reintroduced it. h--85.226.42.57 (talk) 10:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I find it odd that a lengthy article about Karl XI has no mention whatsoever about the ethnic cleansing that was executed by Karl during the Scanian Wars?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.38.109.246 (talk) 18:46, 18 January 2009 (UTC) 

Harly ethnic; the Swedish and Danes were of the same ethnicity. That was hardly unusual during that age, but should of course be mentioned in the article of the Scanian war. --85.226.44.74 (talk) 11:35, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I had tightened up a paragraph about this king's numeral (XI) and removed such peacock/exaggerated words as "highly" and an irrelevant king's name and an unprecise term "in the line", and Swenglish such as "took their numbers" etc. This was reversed today with this summary: (Rv. Some of the early Swedish kings that carried names later kings also do are semi-mythological at best, that is). I have no idea what that means. Am reverting back to what I did on the 9th and ask that any further revisions of these details be explained clearly here. SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:46, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I consider Serge's version to be slightly better. However, I consider these long details on monarchs "real" number to often be superfluous, more so when it is put in the lead section.
Personally I wouldn't care if the king was, quote, "actually the 5th King Charles", or not. I think it would be worthy of a footnote and maybe a simple sentence in the lead...
Fred-J 20:08, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Appreciate your comment – thank you! - and your opinions. That's why I tried to shorten that a bit anyway. My experience is that many people wonder why some numberings do not jive, so to speak, and that some explanation is necessary. Especially when they ask who all those 16 were, based on the current king's unusually high numeral. Regards, SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:18, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

There's no mention of Sweden entering the Triple Alliance during Charles' reign. It happened during the regency of Hedvig Eleonora but Hedvig's article doesn't mention it either.
Top.Squark (talk) 18:12, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


#### Assimilation of the newest dominions
On the map it states Finland 1581. The treaty of Nöteborg is from 1323 when the border zone was demarcated from the Karelian Isthmus to the Gulf of Bothnia. In treaty of Teusina 1595, Sweden incorporated the modern day North-Savo, Kainuu, Northern Ostrobotnia, and the rest of Lapland. The map seems to be at least from a Finnish point of view severly out of place.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.64.5.173 (talk) 07:23, 25 June 2014 (UTC) 

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The incorruptibility of corpes of Christian saints originated some centuries before the Middle Age. This free article testifies it was a living belief even in the 18th-century Protestant Sweden. Subject of king Charles XI asked themselves why their sovereign had been recognized in a physiological state opposite to the one pertaining Christian saints. 1719 was the year of the crisis of European absolutism.
If it seems not to be an useful end of the WP article, then the section can be eventually moved to the previous paragraph related to the king's death.

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Eric XIV of Sweden which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you.  —RMCD bot 01:47, 3 September 2023 (UTC)