# Talk:G. F. Vernon's cricket team in Ceylon and India in 1889–90

Pardon my ignorance, but what on Earth are all the "XI"s in this article supposed to mean? What is an "XI cricket team", and how does it differ from other cricket sides? This might be helpful information to add to the article, whatever the explanation is. -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 01:12, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Hello, Bryan. A cricket team consists of eleven players and it has always been standard nomenclature to call a team "Somebody's XI" if it has no national, local or club affiliation. The main difference between Vernon's XI and a team representing an organisation is that it was formed on an ad hoc basis – by private individuals, as it were. Vernon's XI was, on the face of it, an English team but it had no official sanction by, say, Marylebone Cricket Club (MCC) or one of the English county clubs so they could not be called England or anything similar. Sorry for the delay in replying but I'm extremely busy in real life at present. I hope this helps but please let me know if you have any more questions about the article. Thanks and all the best. BcJvs UTC 19:04, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply! In that case, the article's title continues to seem awkward and unnatural to me. It would make sense to refer to the team as either "Vernon's cricket team" or as "Vernon's eleven", but "Vernon's eleven cricket team"? I suggest reducing the title to G. F. Vernon's cricket team in Ceylon and India in 1889–90 and leaving all the "XI"s for the text. -Bryan Rutherford (talk) 19:36, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Actually, I agree, but I never thought about it before. The format of these titles goes right back to the early days of the cricket project. It is fair enough for something like Indian cricket team in England in 2022 which uses Indian as an adjective. I think we need to have "cricket" in the title as "...Vernon's XI in..." would be inadequate. I'll change it as you suggest. Thanks very much, Bryan. All the best. BcJvs UTC 20:50, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
@Bryanrutherford0: Just letting you know that the move mentioned in this section has been reverted per WP:DENY since Boca Jóvenes was determined to be a sockpuppet of a blocked editor. (If you are still in the belief that the page should be moved, feel free to move it yourself; if you cannot or do not know how, please see WP:RM for methods in which to move the page.) Steel1943 (talk) 22:58, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

I strongly suspect that A. N. Curzon is either The Honourable Alfred Nathaniel Curzon (1860–1920) or the Hon. Assheton Nathaniel Curzon (1867–1950), both younger sons of the 4th Lord Scarsdale and brothers to the esteemed politician George Curzon, 1st Marquess Curzon of Kedleston, a viceroy of India in the early 1900s. I notice that Cricket, 27 March 1890, p. 44 calls him "Hon. A.N. Curzon" in its account of Verson's XI v. Punjab, so he was clearly the son of a nobleman. According to another newspaper article, Alfred was an officer in the Derbyshire Regiment, being commissioned in 1879 and promoted to captain of the 5th Militia Battalion in 1885. Acording to David Gilmour's biography of the marquess, Assheton tried his hand at business but was notoriously bad with money and nearly went bankrupt (pp. 422-23). Unfortunately, I cannot seem to find confirmation of which of the brothers played for Vernon's side in 1890. —Noswall59 (talk) 18:17, 7 December 2022 (UTC).

I have just discovered the following in the Derbyshire Times of 1 December 1888 ("Local News", p. 5): "The Commander-in-Chief has approved of Captain the Hon. A. N. Curzon, 5th (Militia) Battalion, Derbyshire Regiment, visiting Ceylon till required for the regimental training of 1890." This suggests, given the information above, that it was very likely Alfred who played on Vernon's side in January 1890. --Noswall59 (talk) 11:51, 8 December 2022 (UTC).
Thank you for this, Noswall59. Can you leave it with me, please, and I'll add it to the article when I've caught up with things. I'm very busy in real life at present. All the best. BcJvs UTC 19:06, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Another likely identification -- S. L. Murray was described in Cricket, 27 December 1889, p. 11, as "Mr. Murray, of the Gordon Highlanders". The Army List for 1894 (p. 860) lists Stewart Lygon Murray as a lieutenant, commissioned in 1884. He was born 1863 and died 1930, and was the son of Sir Herbert Murray, governor of Newfoundland, and the author of several books on war. --Noswall59 (talk) 11:47, 8 December 2022 (UTC).

I notice that there was also a Frederick W. Kerr in the Gordon Highlanders at the same time, so likely the "F. W. Kerr" who joined the team with Murray. --Noswall59 (talk) 11:57, 8 December 2022 (UTC).
And thanks for this, too, Noswall59. Please leave it with me for now. All the best. BcJvs UTC 19:07, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Hello, Noswall59. I've added the information about Murray, Kerr and Curzon. Again, many thanks for finding it. BcJvs UTC 21:41, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
@Noswall59: Letting you know as a courtesy that the edits related to this request performed by Boca Jóvenes have been reverted per WP:DENY since the aforementioned editor was determined to be a sockpuppet of a blocked editor. If you believe that their edits are good, feel free to add them back or revert my revert. (I'm okay with you reverting my revert: Basically, if you do that, you take ownership of the aforementioned editor's edits and claim them to be good for Wikipedia ... which is something I'm not going to do since this is not my subject matter expertise at all.) Steel1943 (talk) 23:03, 13 January 2023 (UTC)