# Talk:Kenshiro Abbe

Several changes were made with the most basic reducing the list of dates to something more in line with wiki policy.  I'll admit to getting tired and hence a little fast with the deletions but the article should be about Abbe not different organizations or students.  Further, the way the article read Abbe's introduction of martial arts to Europe was single handed - not quite true.  I tried to introduce a little less POV.  There are preferences for articles about the martial arts outlined in karate=yes and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles).  Main point here is removing titles.  I have one question - what was he chief instructor of with the Kyoto police.  I'll modify the sentence in a couple of days if no one chimes in.Peter Rehse 09:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Removed class for biography and MA as the article has now been extensivly modified... Corky1979 17:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
You don't remove - you update.  I took a look and feel it still remains in the Start class but is pretty close to BPeter Rehse 10:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I promoted the article to B - as I said it was borderline.  The flow still needs a bit more work and more citations would be nice.Peter Rehse 04:13, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I was surprised to see the that outcome of this discussion was not to rename or move this page, especially as even one of the two editors opposing the proposal (unwittingly?) used an argument in favour of renaming, namely: Abbe is [ ... ] the most widely used version.
I'm sure the renaming debate will reappear in the future, so for future reference, editors might like to consider the following pages for Japanese celebrities, for which the commonly-used spellings of their names have been chosen in preference to the "correct" Romanized Japanese. 

Maki Ohguro
Kohmi Hirose
Kenji Johjima
Sadaharu Oh
Hopefully it will become apparent that Kenshirō Abe is not the most appropriate title for this article. DAJF 02:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I have failed this article because

It severely lacks references
The references that are presented fail WP:RS. Some are hosted on geocitites or the recreational website of a university member
Teh picture needs a more thourough Fair Use rationale
Lead is used inappropriately. The birth details should not be in the lead. The lead is supposed to summarise the core features of the article.
The anecdotal section at the bottom needs to be incorporated into the article better. IF it is an example which shows his style or character, then perhaps a style section should be made. An anecdote section separately is unencyclopedic. Some of the anecdotes are especially POV
One line sentences need to be integrated into paragraphs to express a key idea.
Best regards. Blnguyen  (bananabucket) 07:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

On 24 February 2008, more than two years ago, Corky1979 added this article to the karate=yes/Navbox|WPMA Navbox to request a peer review. Since that time, the article has had less than 30 edits. Looking at the article today, there are currently seven 'citation needed' tags, and several other parts of the text also need references. I will try to help improve this article as best I can. Janggeom (talk) 03:20, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Good work so far, but a number of problems have been introduced due to the use of unreliable sources. The BJC was formed by Abbe and Bill Wood in 1958. Masutaro Otani (not Mutsutharu) was not strictly a founder, and had his own organisation, the MOSJ, that later merged with the BJC. The IBC was an umbrella organisation, formed by Abbe in the late 1950s to help unite his various budo councils... how could it have sent Abbe to the UK? Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 07:37, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for your feedback. Please note that: (1) the article is a work in progress; (2) I contribute to Wikipedia on a voluntary basis; and (3) I contribute to Wikipedia as an independent researcher in my own right. I do not dispute that there might be parts of the article (as it currently stands) that need improvement, but I encourage you to bear in mind the three points I have listed. I appreciate the information you have provided so far on my talk page, and will go through it as I have the time. Thank you. Janggeom (talk) 11:03, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Those three points are the very nature of Wikipedia, and you're doing a good job. The references by Bagot and Cavalcanti are extremely troubling, however, for a number of reasons. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 12:03, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
While there is certainly still room for improvement, I have rewritten this article and believe it is now at a much better standard than it was a few days ago. I had originally planned to review the article (since it had been listed for peer review), but ended up rewriting it, as I felt that would be of more benefit. It is clear that the period from 1955 to 1985 was marked by political and organisational complications; I have tried to present as factual and as neutral an account as I can, with the time I have been able to put in during the past few days. I will post a request on WPMA's discussion page requesting a review. Janggeom (talk) 07:35, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

It certainly is of a much better standard.
At some point I'll make a detailed list of improvements that can be made (when I have time). One point that jumps out is the part about his return to Britain. This was in 1969 rather than 1967. The mention of Abbe's disappointment with the BJC on his return is somewhat misleading... the source of this disappointment was the breaking away of a group of clubs which formed a rival association, the "BJC (MAC)". This is covered in the reference by Henry Otani. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 10:45, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
Fantastic job on the article! I made a start and then just ran out of time to continue it, much to my own annoyance (a change of career does that sometimes). It is certainly much improved from the version I originally created and I thank you for spending your time on this. Let me know if I can be of any help though! Corky1979 (talk) 20:21, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback. Please feel welcome to review the article (if you feel that it has changed sufficiently from when you last edited it for you to be able to provide a reasonably independent assessment) or improve it if you can. Janggeom (talk) 08:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The photo is from either late 1963 or early 1964. The poster behind him advertises the Royal Albert Hall judo championships in 1963 and reads:
NATIONAL JUDO CHAMPIONSHIPS
THE ROYAL ALBERT HALL
Manager CM Hoffer (?)
Saturday 23rd November 1963 at 7.30pm
Demonstrations of 
Judo Karate
Kendo Aikido
etc.
Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 20:43, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. The caption on the photograph on Wikipedia claims that the picture is a "photograph of Kenshiro Abbe shortly after his arrival in the UK" (hence the change to c. 1955). The poster detail you have supplied obviously contradicts that. I looked for a larger version and found this and this; interestingly, the first source gives Abbe's kendo master's first name, which I haven't seen anywhere else. Janggeom (talk) 00:33, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Originally posted on Jessehp10's talk page just now:
Hello Jessehp10, I note that you have again removed Henry Ellis from the notable students section in the Kenshiro Abbe article. I do not see any justification for you to do so; as you can see in the article, Ellis was a student of Abbe and has written several articles and at least one book about him. If you believe that Ellis should not be listed, please specify your reasons. On a related note, I see that you have been inserting Leon Mason as a notable student, but a Google search shows no evidence that he was a notable student of Abbe, or even that he was a student of him at all. If you believe that Mason should be listed, please supply appropriate references in the articles. I also note that you removed a citation tag noting that references were needed for Mason's inclusion, without supplying any references to address the concern. This makes it difficult to continue assuming good faith. I trust this feedback helps. Janggeom (talk) 09:49, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I have nominated this article for GA review. I believe that it meets the standards for promotion to GA class, but if this turns out not to be the case, I would appreciate any constructive feedback on improving the article. Thank you. Janggeom (talk) 07:48, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

This article has a dead link that unfortunately is used multiple times. In some cases, there is also a backup link so perhaps you could just remove it. In other cases, you will have to find a substitute reference to cite. Regards, Xtzou (Talk) 12:29, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for your note, but I tried the link just now and the article is accessible. Janggeom (talk) 12:39, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kenshiro Abbe/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Xtzou (Talk) 13:03, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I am reviewing this article. The main problem is a dead link that unfortunately is used very frequently (47 times) as a reference.[1] Once the problem is taken care of, I will review the rest of the article. I have made some copy edits to ensure prose quality and compliance with the MoS.  Regards, Xtzou (Talk) 13:03, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

The Morgan and Ellis (2006) link, which you had tagged, appears to be working normally. The IBC UK (2007) reference appeared as a dead link but I have checked and updated it, so all reference links appear to be functioning. Janggeom (talk) 13:28, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
ok.  Xtzou (Talk) 14:15, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose quality:  Well written

B. MoS compliance:  Complies with required elements of  MOS

Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. References to sources:  Reliable sources

B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:  Well referenced

C. No original research: 

Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects:  Sets the context

B. Focused:  Remains focused on the topic

Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias: 

Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc: 

Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales: 

B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions: 

Overall:
Pass or Fail: Pass! 

Congratulations! Xtzou (Talk) 14:15, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your (exceptionally speedy) review. Janggeom (talk) 14:20, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I deleted an edit that introduced material about Reg Bleakman, who claimed to have developed his style Atemi Jutsu with Kenshiro Abbe. Bleakman has been a controversial figure in UK martial arts and the claims made about him should be taken with a pinch of salt. See for example this thread on the Judo Forum in which Bleakman's supposed relationship to Abbe is discussed. Certainly there are no reliable sources to cite here. Catfish Jim & the soapdish 10:23, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

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Possible subject area for inclusion in the article: Peter Thornley, best known as the original masked British version of Kendo Nagasaki 
Claims to have studied judo under Abbe before turning to wrestling after losing a finger.  He makes this claim in his biography Kendo Nagasaki - The Man Behind The Mask and in various media interviews such as 1, 2 3 and 4.   The association has been listed in print as far back as 1970 - example 4 which also makes the claim - repeated in Thornley's biography 48 years later - that the sword Thonrley used in character as Nagasaki was a gift from Abbe.  This slide show of the photo album Abbe's former aide Bill Reeve shows Thornley on the right at 4:26 - Kev Chadwick, the son of one of the other two people in the photograph identifies his father plus Thornley and the third person in the picture in the comments section below. 62.190.148.115 (talk) 14:21, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Have added about Thornley's claims of study under Abbe.  Thornley's appearance in Bill Reeve's photo album can go in some day if either (1) the photo album is published in a book or magazine, or (2) a reliable source makes mention of the Youtube upload and Thonrley's appearance in it.  In either of these two cases, the secondary source should be cited rather than the actual Youtube video.Romomusicfan (talk) 08:41, 6 September 2019 (UTC)