# Talk:Mary Renault

I've corrected an obvious error in the new paragraph about Demosthenes (Renault couldn't read Greek – see her entry in the old DNB) and have re-punctuated what appears to be a quotation. This needs to be checked and a source added. Wilus 13:21, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Speaking of that, do her "theories" about Demosthenes' relations with Philip and Alexander appear in her non-fiction or only in The Fire from Heaven?  If the latter, they're not theories she proposed, but an imaginative recreation that she may have believed was consistent with Demosthenes' character but not necessarily true.  —JerryFriedman 20:34, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Seems like there's a bit too much about Demosthenes in this article--he's a minor character in one of her books, when the major characters (real and fictional) of most of her books aren't even mentioned. Nareek 05:44, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Demosthenes seems to have crept back in, as has the incorrect assertion that Renault read him in the original. I've deleted both. If you want to write about Renault and Demosthenes, please provide references and get your facts right. Wilus (talk) 10:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone want to weigh in on the problem at Quintus Curtius Rufus?  It's a conflict that started out as a revert war and has moved anywhere since--we need more input. Nareek 14:17, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Mary adopted the name Renault when she published her first book, apparently to keep her identity secret from her nursing employers. I have heard from more than one reasonable source that she pronounced the name "renolt", not in the French fashion, and would like some input on this from someone who knows her history better than I do. (Passing reader, 5 July 2006.)

Not that I know her better, but I actually came to this page to see whether they had a pronunciation here because I have heard it is pronounced "Renalt" too. → JARED (t)  01:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
It is pronounced 'Ren-olt.'  I added and cited this, but I don't know how to convert it to IPA. —Celithemis 02:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello everyone. I hope this is the right place to explain my addition. I recently read the Theseus novels following glowing reccomendations, and was shocked at the veiled contempt shown by the author towards women in general.
I am not so ahistorical as to suppose a partiarchal ruler from Ancient Greece would not regard women as second class citizens, see them as 'war prizes' etc or that Renault wouldn't reflect the sexist views of her times; still, Theseus' attitude seems to go beyond that into brutality and even a sort of disgust and I began to think that while Theseus is supposed to be 'a man for women' these views expressed the author's own. 
I did some research on Renault (reading the David Sweetman book, Caroline Heilbrun's, etc) and found that my suspicions were correct and she did admit to despising women. 
I felt quite degraded after reading these books and feel that because Renault was a woman writer who acquired such a reputation amongst the gay community this defect has gone undetected.
I have accordingly added a couple of sentences to her biograhy mentioning her hostility to women.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jessica Holsgrove (talk • contribs) 10:43, 22 January 2011 (UTC) 

Hi, Please add the references   for your additions see WP:CITE. Wikipedia aims for the presentation of a neutral point of view - that is to say not loaded or taking a partisan perspective. It also requires no original research, which means that secondary sources are cited rather than personal opinion. It sounds like it would be useful to add Sweetman and Helibrun's perspectives with refs. Other scholars of Renault's work might strongly disagree with their critique. Best wishes Span (talk) 12:10, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Hello, Span, I have added page numbers. I would be delighted if only other scholars of Renault's work did put forward arguments that she strongly admired women!
Jessica Holsgrove (talk) 15:42, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Span (talk) 16:11, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Jessica, I have read Renault's work and Sweetman's biography, and believe you are too harsh concerning Renault's attitude. Renault was in effect married to a woman for most of her life, a fact which contradicts your theory. She was a lesbian writer at a time when discrimination was common. She also had many female friends, such as a fellow nurse who remained a regular pen-pal for years, up until her death. She invaded male-dominated territory in literature and history at a time when few women were doing so. She was active politically, but her activity in the anti-apartheid movement is not given much weight overall in this article, compared with her imagined disdain for women! If she thought men were so great, why didn't she marry one? She was strongly opposed to the Nationalist Party in South Africa and consistently identified with the liberals of South Africa. Also, she was a warmhearted person in her dealings with everyone, including her servants, one of whom she bailed out of jail on more than one occasion, paying his fines. Daniel Sweetman made these things clear in his biography.
When writing a novel about ancient times, Renault assumed the voices of an ancient people, as any good actor would do in a play. It is an assumed voice, not to be confused with the voice of the author. In the same way, a character in a play is not an accurate reflection of the actor. It is just not possible to write a good novel without slipping into the bones of the characters. Renault's ability to do what she did is very rare. Few have ever pulled it off. Is this unimportant?
Renault's views as expressed by Daniel Sweetman were common for her era. One must in fairness consider her background, including her upbringing and early life and times. People are often looking for perfect reflections of their own views in authors, and they judge the author by a standard that did not exist in the author's day. In fact, the author may have been closer to your own viewpoint, moving toward it by a greater extent than most other people of her day. Do you suppose the author might continue believing the same things, had she been born in 1970 rather than before the Second World War? How fair is it to judge people of the past by today's standards?
And lastly, what about the quality of her product? Who wrote a better historical novel concerning that place and time in ancient Greece? One would think a discussion of her body of work to be far more important than picking on her supposed personal viewpoints. I suppose one should kick Plato out for believing in monarchy. -Neutrophil (talk) 18:30, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

I propose that in the leading paragraph of this article it be reflected that Mary Renault was both a British and South African writer. She spent a great deal of her life and career in South Africa, was active in South African politics and affairs, and it was in South Africa where she first felt comfortable writing novels with gay themes as stated in this article. In 1950 she became a South African citizen. The categories even mention that she was a "LGBT author from South Africa". Thus I feel it is right to call her both British and South African.
--Majoofins (talk) 22:33, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

But what if no-one cares?
Please go ahead and change the wording in the lede, then we shall see if anyone cares. Thank you for raising this issue. MPS1992 (talk) 23:05, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Over-written, over-emotional, non-encyc. Valetude (talk) 00:13, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, and I have rewritten that section. Bigturtle (talk) 01:56, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Does anyone have an opinion on the (non)-use of Challans' pen name in the body of this article? Other English Wikipedia articles on authors who wrote exclusively under a pen name (Robert Jordan, George Eliot, Mark Twain) seem to use the pen name throughout the body of the article. I also find this more in keeping with WP:COMMONNAME. Cfrhansen (talk) 17:21, 28 March 2025 (UTC)