# Talk:Lufsig

I agree that the pronunciation box is too bulky to appear in the article. However, in my opinion, it is encyclopaedic and relevant. So I am putting it in the talk page to let interested readers know how close the pronunciations of the two phrases are. They only differ by tone in the first 2 words, and by consonant in the last word.--Jabo-er (talk) 06:59, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

The reason I removed the box is because I don't want such an article to be off-limits to our younger readers, and I think adding it would be indelicate. None of the English language sources used in the article have the direct Chinese characters nor their pronunciations. However, therein is already sufficient detail why the name and how it relates to the actual profanity in Cantonese for its direct use to be obviated. I won't fight its reinsertion if that's what the consensus turns out to be. -- Ohc ¡digame! 11:54, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
None of the English language sources used contain the word 'cunt' either, but the c-word can still appear in the article. I hope our pure-hearted young readers won't mind reading the obscene word for the female genitalia. I do not propose or oppose reinsertion of the comparison box. Anyone who reads the article knows the translated name is close to a Cantonese profanity, and they can go to the talk page to see how close the two phrases are. Talking about quality of the article, I am less concerned about profane words than this section. Giving a green light to inclusion of this type of contents will eventually lower the overall quality, I am afraid. --Jabo-er (talk) 15:06, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
True, but it appears as c*** in the Huffington blog. And I did consider reducing it back to the asterisked version but don't see the point. I might just remove "cunt" altogether because I think it's borderline gratuitous. -- Ohc ¡digame! 15:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
The Huffington Post is censored, however Wikipedia is not, and it's a no-brainer as to exactly what word the source is referring to. Wikipedia isn't written for schoolchildren, and I really don't see the purpose of straying from WP:NOTCENSORED and avoiding the usage of the word. If people are offended by the word, they can start their own fork called Jesuspedia or something; it's none of our concern. The Chinese Wikipedia article isn't censored either, despite it being one of the most euphemism-reliant self-censored Wikipedia projects out there. --benlisquareT•C•E 03:36, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
If it's so plain obvious, then were back to gratuitous use of profanity... -- Ohc ¡digame! 03:44, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Let's think about this for a moment. Schoolchildren aren't supposed to be running free-willy around Wikipedia; we have parent guides which state this. We have articles such as Futanari which show girls with huge dicks that are much bigger than mine. Wikipedia has never been a safe site for children to visit, and this is something that isn't going to change any time soon. Parents have the responsibility of monitoring children's internet usage, and what children should and should not see does not fall within our responsibility. The idea that we could be potentially offending children by using a few naughty words is a bit silly, in my opinion. --benlisquareT•C•E 03:48, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
I'm not offended by the use of pron or profanity, but their use needs to be appropriate. The pornographic depiction in your above example is indeed appropriate, for it wouldn't be possible to demonstrate the concept properly without it. It's hardly the same for "mom's c***" or "f*** your mother", even without the context, verbatim from the sources. You've already said "it's a no-brainer as to exactly what word the source is referring to", so that begs the question why we need to be graphical when none of the sources bother to spell out the words. -- Ohc ¡digame! 04:11, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
As to the Games section, you might be right. I deleted some linkspam from there earlier, but I'm prepared to let that section develop for a while and see where it goes. As that 'orrible tabloid is the only source, that may be justification enough to remove it if no other sources turn up. -- Ohc ¡digame! 15:36, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
This is personally the stupidest edit war I've ever seen. ViperSnake151  Talk   03:43, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
It takes two to war. And I guess that means it takes two to be stupid. -- Ohc ¡digame! 03:44, 4 January 2014 (UTC)


### Section break
WP:Offensive material says "In original Wikipedia content, a vulgarity or obscenity should either appear in its full form or not at all; words should never be bowdlerized by replacing letters with dashes, asterisks, or other symbols. However, when quoting relevant material, rendering a quotation as it appears in the source cited trumps our style guidelines." However, we are not just citing sources that are self-censoring with asterisks, some are just using workarounds (i.e. for instance, an offensive term referring to female genitalia). It is clear what the words are, and they also provide context in relation to the Cantonese profanity page, which provide further explanations on how people came to the conclusion that IKEA China really dropped the bomb in the transliteration department. What we are quoting is factual information, and not a specific quote from a person, so the latter does not apply. ViperSnake151  Talk   04:30, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

It's not about censorship; I see no further context is required. There is already a link in the article to Chinese profanity, and sticking with the sourced "workarounds" is perfectly in line with WP:CITE and WP:V. But that's not all – I objected to in your rewrite. You never edited the article before, parachute in from absolutely nowhere, making huge changes to the article in one non-transparent edit. I don't know or really care if you understand nothing about Hong Kong politics. On closer looking, I found unnecessary or unsuitable wikilinks were inserted. You removed from the body of the article the origin of the name, the important fact that it had no Chinese name in Hong Kong nor Taiwan, and incidentally the price points. I was merely attempting to put back some of the removed content with slow and discrete changes, but your brazen revert, without even contemplating the loss is rather objectionable, IMHO. -- Ohc ¡digame! 04:52, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
I was cleaning up the article to be more presentable; but I did compromise back in things upon further review; I do plan on at least adding back the stuff on the naming. Also, I had concerns that Invasian Magazine site was possibly unreliable because it looked like a blog (on second thought, maybe not). Also, WP:NOTCATALOG ViperSnake151  Talk   06:20, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
If I can throw my two cents in... (American euphemism)  As a long-time wiki contributor, I believe that the full language should be included for several reasons:  First, and foremost, and for the above reasons, Wikipedia should never be censored - 'nuff said.  But another reason is that there are many nuances, even within the broadly used language as English is, that the obscenity should be described in full on the page.  Case in point, the word "fag" in Queen's English (QE) has a very different meaning in the American English (AE) (where I'm from).  If I see it described as a "f**" in place of the word "fag", (or worse, confuse "f**" and "f***" with "fuck") only a few people might understand the meaning.  It's a curse word in AE, but not in QE - "fag" that is...  Kenyan or Jamaican English might not know the word "cunt" (They may or may not, I don't know), but even if they understand that word meaning, they still would be in the dark because they see only - "c***".  Our job is to explain - not dictate morality or judgement.
It's also really not our job to cover un-supervising bad parents.  Wikipedia will not be contributing to the demise of the family unit - we just don't have that kind of power... Dinkytown talk 06:33, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
No, it's a fallacy to argue that 1/"fag" can easily be confused with "fuck" when asterisks are deployed or that 2/"fag" is anywhere near as profane as "fuck". Well, we're talking orders of magnitude here with "fag" and "fuck". The profane context already exists, so "c***" doesn't need to be explained, and the construction "f*** you mother's c***" is, as Benli admitted above, is "a no-brainer as to exactly what word the source is referring to". And it doesn't mean go whip your mother's herd of mammals that go "moo", if you get my drift. ;-) And let me just reiterate a point made earlier: indeed WP:Offensive material says "words should never be bowdlerized by replacing letters with dashes, asterisks, or other symbols. However, when quoting relevant material, rendering a quotation as it appears in the source cited trumps our style guidelines." I wouldn't be fighting this point if sources were explicitly profane. The fact that none of the English sources directly uses "fuck" or "cunt" means there has been no breach of the guideline, and is a good enough reason for us to use "f*** you mother's c***" here per the sources. -- Ohc ¡digame! 17:59, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
I actually just did find a source (specifically That's Shanghai) which uses the translations without censorship. Once we get this unprotected, we can also fix up the mixup we have listed. ViperSnake151  Talk   05:26, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
You trawl around far enough and wide enough, and you're bound to find one that does. Fact is all mainstream English sources have the delicatesse to avoid brazen and gratuitous profanity. -- Ohc ¡digame! 05:33, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
We operate on consensus, not your opinion and your opinion only; you seem to be the only one arguing for their non-inclusion, and judging by your remarks earlier (i.e. your objections to my improvements to the article and speaking like its your personal property), you seem to be asserting ownership on the article. There appears to be a consensus towards their inclusion. I still think it should be there, primarily so we can provide the correct context and reasoning on why people thought this was funny. ViperSnake151  Talk   01:05, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
We operate on consensus, not your opinion. You came in from nowhere, with your undiscussed "improvements", where an amount of useful encyclopaedic information was removed in a thoroughly non-transparent edit, and you lecture me on consensus... A bit rich, methinks. -- Ohc ¡digame! 02:02, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
ViperSnake151 - If you have the exact quote(s) and source, then I vote to put it in. Ohconfucius - Depending on the contexts, calling someone a "fag" in the middle school that I teach, will get you suspended for the day (gender-preference derogatory word), while "fuck" will get you a simple reprimand, or worse.  While your statement; "And it doesn't mean go whip your mother's herd of mammals that go "moo", if you get my drift. ;-)" makes absolutely no sense to me, proves my point of English has many unknown meaning of phrases even amongst it's native speakers... Dinkytown talk 20:01, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Dear English Wikipedians,
If you want to direct people's attention to a vulgar Cantonese pun, please make sure it is correct in the article before the link to the article goes onto the main page. The Lufsig article is so messed up. "throw Lufsig" is 丟路姆西, "fuck your mother's cunt" should be 屌你老母閪, not the other way round. 路姆西 is pronounced as Lo Mo Sai, but 老母閪 should be pronounced as Lo Mo Hai, not Sai. The article is even protected before anyone can fix it. So lame!  
--74.12.83.157 (talk) 05:32, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

The Huffington Post source (cited by Time) uses Lo Mo Sai. Do any of our sources have that? ViperSnake151  Talk   06:20, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
He's talking about the Chinese characters, which as of present, are the wrong way around. The full-protected article currently states that "throw Lufsig" is 丟老母閪, but "老母閪" means "old mother's cunt", and not Lufsig (which is 路姆西). As for the second part, I'd like to point out that per here, 西 (sai) is an euphemism for 屄/閪 (hai; cunt). --benlisquareT•C•E 06:44, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Whoops, sorry about that. I added the editprotected mainly so someone would fix that. ViperSnake151  Talk   02:03, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
perhaps the instruction isn't specific enough for easy parsing. need to clearly state <unique original string> and <replacement string>. best if chinese characters removed altogether if these are not in any English sources. -- Ohc ¡digame! 05:13, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 Done. I have to agree with Ohconfucius there - I had to read this section about six times before deciding what change needed making. Hopefully this is the right one - if anything else needs editing, please make another protected edit request. Best — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 12:45, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
Also, for pages that appear on the Main Page, you will usually get a quicker response by posting at WP:ERRORS. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 12:46, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Lufsig/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: MWright96 (talk · contribs) 15:10, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
Will review MWright96 (talk) 15:10, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose):  b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): 
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR): 

It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects):  b (focused): 

It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias: 

It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.: 

It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions): 

Overall:
Pass/Fail: 


### Lead
"Following the incident (and the discovery that its transliterated Chinese name sounds similar to a profanity when pronounced in Cantonese)" - the parentheses are not really necessary
" a protester at Chief Executive CY Leung (who had been nicknamed "the wolf" by his critics)" - better and avoids the use of parentheses; CY Leung, the Chief Executive, whom his critics nicknamed "the wolf".
"selling out at IKEA stores in Hong Kong, as well as in 11 out of 14 stores in mainland China." - repetition of "stores"; try to use the appropriate alternative word other than stores


### Development
The wikilink for Silke Leffler in the lead can also be applied of his first mention in this sub-section
"Lufsig was designed by German designer Silke Leffler, drawing inspiration from the fairy tale Little Red Riding Hood." - The Ikea source should  be moved to when the comma is used and the Ikea toy wolf becomes Hong Kong protest symbol from BBC News source be put in its place because the IKEA source does not mention that it was inspired by Little Red Riding Hood
"where a portion of the profit from IKEA's" - the company's
"and accompanying storybooks sold during the holiday season would be donated by IKEA" - same issue as above. You can use a different word to describe IKEA in this instance
"The name of the toy is an adjective form of the Swedish verb "lufsa"," - Time does not explicitly state this, but this source does


### Symbolism in Hong Kong
"sparked a pro-democracy movement " - brought about a
"Critics of Leung have nicknamed him" - can also be Leung's critics for reasons of conciseness
alluding to his alleged cunningness," - perceived is a more neutral word to use instead
Wikilink pun on the first instance not the second instance of its mention
"The popularity soon extended to mainland China (where 11 of the 14 IKEA stores sold out)," - the parentheses are unneeded and can be replaced by commas
"and even to Canada" - drop the word "even"
"A Lufsig Facebook page amassed over 45,000 likes," - this source from CNN states it is 50,000 likes and it would be preferable to use since it is more up to date
"Leung himself posted a picture of himself with a Lufsig he bought for his daughter," - how about mention that it was a Christmas present?


### References
References 3, 8, 9 are lacking the dates the respective sources were published
References 5, 6, 13 and 14 should include the dates the references were accessed
Reference 6 is dead and will require an archive link
References 8, 11, 12, 16 will benefit from the inclusion of the source's respective authors
Reference 15 is missing the work parameter of the source and will need to be archived because it is dead
Overall the main issues concern the fact that there some issues with the prose and there are portions of the article not explicitly verified by the sources that can easily be rectified. There are some sources that are dead but can be archived and some lack the basic parameters such as the name of the author(s), name of the work, publication date and access date. On hold. MWright96 (talk) 16:21, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Will work on it over the next few days. feminist (talk) 16:42, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
@MWright96: Thank you for taking the time to work on the review. I have addressed the issues you've raised here. Please take a look to see if you have any other concerns. feminist (talk) 17:22, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
@Feminist: Now promoting to GA class. Note I've made two changes to the article. MWright96 (talk) 20:38, 25 February 2020 (UTC)