# Talk:Cedar Fire

It's true that we will never know if the Cedar Fire could have been stopped by earlier, more massive, intervention. However, it's better to say "We did all we could." than "We didn't bother because it probably wouldn't have made much of a difference." Rsduhamel 01:11, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks to user Minesweeper for adding a photo, but a trio of politicians looking earnest is about the most irrelevant photo for this article. Aren't there any PD photos that show the fire? -Willmcw 21:50, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. Found a satellite picture of the smoke plumes instead. Rsduhamel 08:43, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It seems the news media can't get it straight on what Martinez was charged with. I think we may have it straight this time. Rsduhamel 22:38, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Why is the "Why was the Cedar Fire so bad?" section written so poorly and in such an odd way?

Because you (or another editor) hasn't yet fixed it! Be bold! Rewrite it.  Cheers, -Willmcw 23:59, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
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Modified narration of fire to follow chronological order (i.e. Julian area and firefighter burned after fire turned east, put approximate time ("noon") of Scripps Ranch fires. "Noon" is approximate but definitely many house were burning (or burnt) by that time. The first houses in Scripps Ranch area were likely burning as early as 8:00 or 9:00 AM. Removed mention of "merger with Grand Prix fire" as no citation is provided and the statement is incorrect (http://www.geog.utah.edu/~cova/kim-etal-nhr-2006.pdf).(The Grand Prix and Old Fires, which were also burning at that time merged but were well to the north of the Cedar Fire. Removed mention of where firefighter was from as while efforts are greatly appreciated, did not seem of first order relevance.
146.244.227.73 18:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I've moved this section here. It's not encyclopedic, completely unsourced, and reads like an essay. It needs a complete rewrite:

Would the results have been different if alleged mistakes had not been made in fighting the fire? We will never know, but there is good reason to believe that the Cedar Fire would have been cataclysmic anyway. Once the Santa Ana wind-driven flames took off, there was little that could have been done to stop them.

Some have suggested that fire suppression leads to conditions that caused the Cedar fire to be so large. However, extensive research by Jon E. Keeley and C.J. Fotheringham has shown that burn patterns have not changed significantly in southern California since 1878. The California Statewide Fire History Database indicates that since 1910, the mean size of fires in San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, Ventura, Los Angeles, San Bernardino, Riverside and San Diego counties has remained constant. The timing of fires is equally consistent, with most igniting June through November with September representing the most flammable period. In a study by S.A. Mensing and others, seabed charcoal deposits off the coast of Santa Barbara County have shown that the frequency of large, Santa Ana driven fires has not changed over the past 500 years. Similar results are produced even when comparing years before and after 1950 when advanced fire suppression technology was developed and utilized on a massive scale.

The only important change revealed by these studies has been an increase in fire frequency during modern times, not a decrease. Fire in chaparral is a natural, unpreventable event. Despite efforts to control them, large chaparral fires have continued unabated since our arrival in California. The assumption that old stands with an "unnatural accumulation of old brush" encourage fires to spread and become more dangerous is inaccurate. Studies by Max Moritz have shown that fuel age does not significantly affect the probability of burning.

Why did the Cedar Fire happen when it did? All fires require a fire triangle whose three vertices are fuel, heat, and oxygen. In San Diego County in October of 2003 fuel was in abundance, and strong Santa Ana conditions had driven daytime temperatures above 90 °F + (32 °C) in the days leading up to the fire. In addition, on the night of October 26 the Santa Ana winds meant humidity was down to single-digits, and 40 miles-per-hour (64 km/h) easterlies were blowing from the desert toward the coast. The result was mass ignition, a rapidly-moving fire, and extreme fire behavior, including large fire whirls. With all elements of the fire triangle present and at high levels, the Cedar Fire rapidly became a record firestorm.

BuddingJournalist 07:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm proposing deleting this section as non-encyclopedic. I'm moving this section to here, below. This is more the kind of material I'd expect to find in a newspaper article. As tragic as the loss is for the families of those killed, none of the folks are notable in an encyclopedic sense, and we typically don't have such lists for other disaster articles. The way the heading is, it appears that someone was trying to use Wikipedia as a memorial page, which isn't really in our scope of purpose. Any objections? AKRadeckiSpeaketh 15:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
The following individuals lost their lives in the Cedar Fire 

Galen Blacklidge — 50, Lakeside, teacher, artist – Died October 26 2003 while trying to escape in her vehicle
Christy-Anne Seiler-Davis — 42, Alpine - Died October 26 2003 while in her home on Vista Viejas Road in Alpine
Gary Edward Downs — 50, Lakeside, small-business owner – Died October 26 2003 while trying to escape the flames on Wildcat Canyon Road
John Leonard Pack — 28, Lakeside - Died October 26 2003 along with his wife Quynh trying to escape the fire on Wildcat Canyon Road
Quynh Yen Chau Pack — 28, Lakeside  - Died October 26 2003 along with her husband John trying to escape the fire on Wildcat Canyon Road
Mary Lynne Peace — 54, Lakeside, nurse - Died on October 26 2003 along with her sister-in-law Robin Sloan near the Barona Indian Reservation
Steven Rucker —  38, Novato, firefighter, died October 29 2003 in Julian fighting the deadly Cedar Fire
Stephen Shacklett — 54, Lakeside, construction superintendent - Died October 26 2003 while trying to escape the fire in his motorhome on Muth Valley road
James Shohara — 63, Lakeside, correctional officer - Died October 26 2003 along with his wife and son while trying to escape the deadly flames near San Vicente Reservoir, Lakeside
Solange Shohara — 43, Lakeside, correctional officer - Died October 26 2003 along with her husband and stepson while trying to escape the fire near San Vicente Reservoir, Lakeside
Randy Shohara — 32, Lakeside - Died October 26 2003 with his stepmother and father trying to escape the deadly flames near San Vicente Reservoir, Lakeside
Robin Sloan — 45, Lakeside, Walmart employee - Died October 26 2003 attempting to escape the fire near the Barona Indian Reservation
Jennifer Sloan — 17, Lakeside, student - Died October 26 2003 along with her mother Robin while attempting to escape the fire near the Barona Indian Reservation
Ralph Marshall Westley — 77, Lakeside, retired retail clerk, discovered October 27 2003 at 1088 Barona Road.
Unknown found mid-December in the I-15/SR-52 area.
Actually, we routinely have lists of victims.  Please see List of Charles Whitman's victims and List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre
Please do not confuse the idea that we are not a memorial service (true) with the idea that a list of victims constitutes a memorial (not true).  The list of victims is encyclopedic and it is useful.  For instance, it may help the reader spot where the most fatalities occurred, etc.
I am going to go ahead and restore the list, since it does comply with policy. I will try to find wording that eliminates any confusion over the possibility of it being a memorial. Johntex\talk 05:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
The article calls the I-15 and CA-52 by their named designations ("Escondido Freeway", "Mount Soledad Freeway"). Those are indeed correct, but it is not the custom in San Diego to use those names when referring to freeways. See LA Times style guide referenced here: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/sep/19/local/la-me-rr-southland-freeways-are-a-number-not-a-name-20120919, the first sentence of this wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_California_freeways#Naming. Local media in San Diego never uses the names, but instead the numbers.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tilthouse (talk • contribs) 17:52, 7 October 2013 (UTC) 

This is being moved here due to lack of citations and the statement of uncertainty in the last sentence:

Although firefighters were almost universally praised, some citizens reported firefighters making no effort to prevent houses from catching fire. Many houses were saved by citizens who refused to evacuate as the fire approached. A group of citizens is credited with saving hundreds of homes in the community of Eucalyptus Hills, near Lakeside, by cutting a firebreak and fighting flames with a privately owned water truck through the night. At one point a helicopter-borne Sheriff's Deputy threatened the group with citations and arrest if they did not cease their efforts and evacuate. They left only after firefighters arrived in the morning after the brunt of the fire had passed by. The validity of or the circumstances surrounding such reports were often unclear because emotions were running high during the crisis.

I can not site for the privately owned water truck but i can site for the Sheriff's Deputy threatening to write citations and possible arrests for residents not leaving the private road across from magnolia. The intensity of the fire in the eucalyptas hills area only lasted the short 15 minutes with the gust of winds raining embers from muth valley but snuffed its self out from lack of oxygen once the winds changed. The fire spread from embers to flames rapidly because of the large Eucalyptas trees on the hill (some of which we have been told were the largest in the hills)They acted like torches and fell quickly on to roof tops. I personally lost everything i owned including the shirt on my back from the embers raining down. In this 15 minutes of chaos not a single fireman/police officer was in the area because they had been dispatched to the much more dangerous area of wild cat canyon. An area which city officials have recently approved a massive development (muth valley) despite the efforts of residents to remind the officials of the devistation and lives lost from lack of escape routes from a high winds canyon. The morning after fire fighters were dispatched but quickly removed and placed into hotter areas to try and contain the fire. Like i stated before the flames only lasted about 15 minutes and then quickly snuffed themself out as the santa anna winds forced the smoke down and into the hills.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.7.238.104 (talk) 21:48, 3 November 2009 (UTC) 

This sentence: "In the aftermath of the fire the curfew for firefighting aircraft was extended from 1/2 hour before sunset to 1/2 hour after sunset and pilots have been given more discretion in deciding whether to attack a fire or not." has been removed because it is not cited, and the Standards for Fire and Aviation Operations still lists the operational times as was at the time of the fire. AKRadeckiSpeaketh 17:55, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Would explain why I couldn't find a reference for it. ;-) Blood Red Sandman (Talk)  (Contribs) 17:56, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I've once again removed the victims list. It's not appropriate for an encyclopedia article...this isn't a newspaper. Second, I've remove the comparisons section, as the first paragraph merely restated material already found here, and the second was just an overview of the 2007 article. SA entry is sufficient AKRadeckiSpeaketh 17:28, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I restored both sections.
The list of fatalities is encyclopedic.
Please see List of Charles Whitman's victims and List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre
Please do not confuse the idea that we are not a memorial service (true) with the idea that a list of victims constitutes a memorial (not true).  The list of victims is encyclopedic and it is useful.  For instance, it may help the reader spot where the most fatalities occurred, etc.
The comparison to the 2007 fires is also valid.
As to the first paragraph, please see WP:LEDE.  It states that information should not be in the lead of the article unless it is also in the body of the article.  Therefore, the information needs to be in the main body of the article if we are putting it in the lead.
As to the summary of the 2007 fires article, I see no problem with it.  People reading this article will naturally want to know how this fire stacks up against others.  This is particularly true with regards to recent fires they may have heard about it.  We could do this as a "see also", but the prefered way to do it is really to put this into text form.  Please see WP:ALSO for information about this. Johntex\talk 21:51, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Cedar Fire (2003)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: David Eppstein (talk · contribs) 06:52, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Quick fail. The drive-by nominator has not addressed citation needed tags in place since 2007 (!), the criticism section seems out of proportion, the section order makes no sense, the lead does not summarize the article, and the Fatalities section does not WP:USEPROSE. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:52, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

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@LightandDark2000: Please justify using that memorial service source when nearly all reliable sources covering the Thomas Fire have quoted the Cedar Fire as being ~273k acres, and CalFIRE officially has that figure as well.--Jasper Deng (talk) 21:01, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Since it has been awhile since the last assessment, I have had another look at the current version, and noticed several unsourced paragraphs in the "Investigation" section. Should this article go to WP:GAR? Z1720 (talk) 01:56, 18 February 2025 (UTC)


### Cedar Fire