# Talk:Legend of Mana

What the?  LIKE Seiken Densetsu?  This game IS a Seiken Densetsu game.  Perhaps "like Secret of Mana" would be more appropriate, but that's still a little silly, considering it's in the same series.  That'd be like saying "Final Fantasy VII is a roleplaying game, like Final Fantasy VI."

There is a 5 part Legend of Mana manga, but all the sites I've found so far are in German. Does anyone have any information about it, like the company that produced it? ~ Hibana 03:33, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

A scanlation group called Cabbit translated it, but I only read a few chapters, as the manga is not very good. Look into that if you want information. Regards, --Sn0wflake 19:52, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Cabbit never finished their translation, and ended around book 2 or 3. - SarielV

I am having problem looking for good links on how to beat every quest, how to get them, ETC. Help will be appreciated. Carbunkel 14:30, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, Wikipedia is not a gameguide, so if you decide to post a link for a place like GameFAQs, don't list it as a guide. ~ Hibana 14:37, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
No need for a link to GameFAQs... it's common knowledge you can find good guides there. There is a very complete one avaliable for Legend of Mana. --Sn0wflake 16:40, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Site that has a lot of information on Legend of Mana:  http://www.manaheavenly.net
Perhaps it could be added to the links section?

Done! BE BOLD! 71.250.63.157 15:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I find manaheavenly.net to have very little information about Legend of Mana, at present... and I kind of dislike the site design, at the moment.  It also seems the forums are dead, as I've been posting a bit about Tempering and have had no replies...  Sigh, how sad.  (Also, "it has databases with tables" ?  What other kind of databases are there? :P -JC 16:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Linked-list databases :P -Twilo 15:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Since there's a request for screenshots, I took a few myself. Hope they're helpful. 
Ultra Megatron 02:10, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Took off box about need for screenshots, and added gallery in the end of article. 71.250.63.157 15:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

From the article: "Niccolo, whose name seems to be a reference to Neko, the merchant cat from Secret of Mana and Seiken Densetsu 3,"  — I always thought it was a reference to Niccolo Machiavelli.  ....  —Muke Tever talk

It may very well be. I never thought it was Neko because Neko is a cat (of course) in the other games and Niccolo is a rabbit. ~ Hibana 22:58, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, his name in the Japanese version in all games is Nikita, and he's a cat more than anything else (he does have some rabbit-like qualities, though, especially in Legend of Mana).  No idea why they decided to call him Niccolo in this one, though.  Or why they wanted to go with Neko for the NA release of Secret of Mana instead of Nikita (the SD3 one, of course, was fan-translated from Nikita as well). -JC 06:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed this section on 6 July 2006 because:

-Legend of Mana is not a notable speedrunning game
-Records posted were held by the contributor of the section
-Twilo 15:29, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why Legend of Mana is any more or less notable than any other speedrun game.  Legend of Mana is a very unnotable game overall - even though I love it to pieces and thinks it deserves more credit.  Just because it was added by someone who happens to hold the records doesn't automatically make it a vanity addition - it actually is notable.  It is, after all, verified by a rather prestigious web site.  My only concern is how notable speed runs are at all --- if they were on more video game pages, I have no objections to it being added here.  However, I haven't seen speed run entries on any other video game pages (that I am aware of), so perhaps it's not suitable...  *shrugs*  -JC 04:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Other games are being listed as well, by myself and I believe others.  Just because I happend to have run it doesn't mean anything.  It's factual information that's hosted on a neutral site with positive proof (in video form) of the feat completed.  Links are included to previously mentioned site for fact verification, which is what Wikipedia calls for with any information.  So even if I do post it, it's still neutral, thus not vanity.
And there are a LOT of games that people claim aren't "notable" which I find to be stupid.  This and a number of RPGs, including (but not limited to): Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy IV, Paper Mario, etc have been run.
Just because YOU don't think it's "notable for speedrunning" doesn't mean other don't think it is.  There's a number of Legend of Mana fans out there who have enjoyed the runs and do believe that when well studied (like other games) it is a perfect candidate for speed running.
--Sir VG 05:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is the wikipedia article on notable speedrun games: Notable_games_for_speedrunning. The links Sir VG provides, while suitable for verification, do not rule out the vanity contribution assessment I made earlier: A Google test finds no non-Nicholas Hoppe records; Speeddemoarchive has no non-Nicholas Hoppe records. The speedrun records would be more suitable in one of the game wikis. There have been precedents set for this; see Talk:Final_Fantasy_VI for the discussion on FF6 speedruns. - Twilo 11:07, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm curious as to what your googling for.  Because searching google for Nicholas Hoppe shows the Legend of Mana records on the first page of searching.  Granted yes there's a ton of other things, but I can't help that my name is also the same as that of some freaken porn star and graphic editor.
As for your page of "notables", while a lot of good games are covered, there's always a limitation to a single page on Wikipedia (not to mention pretty much everything on the notable pages is all a bunch of stubs smashed together).  Adding a small section on individual game pages and providing links to the runs isn't gonna break a page. --Sir VG 21:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the point, Sir VG, is that the only person who has a record for Legend of Mana is Nicholas Hoppe, making it rather unsuitable as a "notable game for speedrunning" , considering there doesn't seem to be anyone else who wants to speedrun it.  As said, Legend of Mana isn't on the notable games for speedrunning, and there are precedents set - as had been mentioned - and thus I stand with the precedents, unfortunately.  As much as I like the speed runs.  Perhaps you could simply add it in the references link, simply listing it as "Legend of Mana speed run" or something?  Rather than giving it an entire section for it, considering... -JC 05:51, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
An edit war, how fun. I'm tending to lead towards the darker side of grey here and rule it out. You do have a good case, Sir VG. Sure, it is verifiable and sure it is neutral, but, how notable is it? The very first line of the Notability guide states:

A topic has notability if it is known outside a narrow interest group or constituency, or should be because of its particular importance or impact.
I don't think this person's speedruns are going to impact upon the way LoM is considered outside of a very narrow band of people. What is more presitigious anyway? Holding the record for Link to the Past or Legend of Mana? Secondly, this impactless speedrunning of the game does not lend itself to much importance, and certainly not enough to rate outside further reading/viewing, in the main body of the article. While you may be one trying to unsettle the cart with your inclusionist view as to speedrunning, a precedence has been created and we will continue to follow it.
Should this argument continue, though, I am happy for administrator involvement in this matter and their decision. -LichYoshi 09:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

and here is the link to the page with all the screenshots http://www.game-art-hq.com/legend-of-mana-screenshots/
i would like to see it in the external links section, there are screenshots for nearly all regions in the game, additional informations about the game and the artists who draw the in-game art
This is a section of the game which mobygames, gamefaqs and the LoM fansite do not provide, at least not in this scale.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.245.213.41 (talk) 19:23, 1 January 2012 (UTC) 

This review is transcluded from Talk:Legend of Mana/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: CR4ZE (talk · contribs) 09:08, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I'll take it. CR4ZE (t • c) 09:08, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Lead
Is the mention of Square becoming Square Enix relevant here?
It's the standard for Square/Square Enix games where the game was originally published by Square, but has a newer version (in this case the PSN version) that's published by Square Enix. --PresN 18:40, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
following the 1995 Seiken Densetsu 3—perhaps try following 1995's Seiken Densetsu
Done. --PresN 18:40, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
Gameplay
I'm a bit unclear on how this Land Make system works. Don't know what is meant by "structure of the game world" or what "Artifacts" are. Is there a way for you to make this clearer?
Tried to clear it up a bit. --PresN 18:13, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Many locations have non-player characters which progress the story or sell equipment—change "which" to "who". Also, what is meant by "progress the story"? Do they give out quests? Information?
Done. --PresN 18:13, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
"numerical attributes including HP, strength, and luck"—most non-players don't know what "HP" means. Also, what exactly do these attributes bring into the gameplay? Does HP increase the amount of damage the player can take? If yes, say so.
Done. --PresN 18:13, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Weapons grant the player the ability to perform abilities in combat—"the ability to perform abilities" is a little awkward to read. I'd suggest a minor rephrase. You could keep it simple by negating clunky prose with "Weapons let the player perform abilities in combat", especially if this is on the road to FAC.
Done, though I don't plan to take it to FAC since it has so little development info. --PresN 18:13, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Referred to as Special Techs, these are powerful attacks—write as these abilities are powerful attacks or similar. Readers might be unclear whether a Special Tech is a weapons or an ability from the sentence prior.
Done. --PresN 18:13, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
that can be used when the special move meter is full—but how is the meter filled?
Done. --PresN 18:13, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
"Weapons" is a bit vague. Can you get an example of a weapon in there? For example, is there a special move that can be done with swords?
Done. --PresN 18:13, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Generally, this section is a little bit vague and needs further clarity. I think there needs to be more on how the player moves through the game and gets between different gameplay modes. Right at the head of this section could go a paragraph covering the very basics of movement, combat and the like, instead of diving straight into the Land Make system because that will likely throw off a lot of readers.
I'll think about how to reorganize this section; I don't want to get into gameguide material but it is a bit confusing, possibly because I've never played the game. (I'm only writing it because it was the next Mana game on the line.) --PresN 18:13, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Plot
In Setting, did the mana tree completely burn down? It says this, but then that "the drained Mana Tree slept". (Reminded me of this).
Reworked a bit- it burnt down, but wasn't dead. (Or, perhaps, even the dead may dreaming lie.) --PresN 18:13, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
I feel like with all this discussion about quest arcs and player choice, the plot section needs to be cited to sources. Citing the game or a strategy guide at various points would be fine. Because no two players will have the same game experience, I think there needs to be some referencing to the material here because it can be WP:CHALLENGED.
Found a source, surprisingly, that explicitly calls those three arcs the main arcs of the story (with a bit of detail). The details of each questline should be covered by the normal "sourced to the game" plot standards; I wish I could get a game script to get more specific but it doesn't seem there is one available. --PresN 23:07, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
There is some very snakey prose in spots here. Try to reduce long sentences fragmented by commas.
A constant problem of mine. Fixed them, I think. --PresN 23:07, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Development and release
Is that all the material there is on the game's development? It seems a little short, but if that can't be helped, no matter.
Yeah, that's about it. It's the main reason I'm not going to take it to FAC- Unless I buy the Japanese Ultimania and then get someone to translate it, there's just not a lot out there- and I have no assurance that there's anything useful in the Ultimania, either. --PresN 18:13, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
stated that although Ishii kept the game tied to previous titles in the series, Kawazu had a heavy influence on the design of the game is a bit vague. What is it in this game that Ishii kept consistent with previous Mana games, and what is meant by "design of the game"? Gameplay design? Art design?
Changed. --PresN 23:09, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
late in Summer 2000. Even though it explicitly says in North America, I feel like this is violating WP:SEASON. Although, you could include in a parenthetical or footnote what the Summer months are in the US.
Just mentioned when the other two games of the planned triad were released instead, since there's no good way to say "the late july-august timeframe" without saying late Summer, and I don't have a source for when, exactly, they'd planned on releasing it.
Sinfonia Drammatica, an August 4, 2009 concert—Not sure that Sinfonia Drammatica and Symphonic Shades should be written in italics. (Based on A Seaside Rendezvous and ArtRave). You need a comma after "2009" per MOS:COMMA. Tricky, I know. (Also take note of this again later down in Legacy with February 21, 2002).
Did the comma, but per MOS:ITALIC, you italicize "symphonies", such as Symphonic Fantasies and Symphonic Odysseys. ArtRave and A Seaside Redezvous are considered "larger events", since they're combinations of multiple performances, and so don't get italicized. --PresN 23:09, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
including stuffed toy dolls of the iconic rabite enemy—iconic according to who?
Changed to mascot and gave a source that I used for that term in Secret of Mana
As part of the Square Millennium Collection, Legend of Mana was re-released—When?
Added 2000, Japan-only. --PresN 23:09, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
A companion book including artwork and interviews titled Seiken Densetsu: Legend of Mana Ultimania—is it the companion book or the interviews that are titled as such? try "A companion book titled Seiken Densetsu: Legend of Mana Ultimania including artwork and interviews".
Done. --PresN 23:09, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Reception
These sales were lower than for Secret of Mana, which sold over 1.83 million copies between 1993 and 2004. WP:OR? The source only mentions sales of Secret of Mana (as its Japanese title), not that Legend of Mana's were lower.
Well, the idea was that SE listed every game that sold a bunch, and SoM was on the list and LoM was not, even though it had been out for 4-5 years; it is still a bit OR-y so I've removed it. --PresN 19:34, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Legend of Mana received mixed reviews from critics, and generally received lower scores than its two immediate predecessors, Secret of Mana and Seiken Densetsu 3. WP:SYNTH. None of the three sources make this connection.
Removed. --PresN 19:34, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
claimed that the game's graphics were one of its best points. This is probably a little nit-picky, but I don't think "graphics" can really work as a singular noun (one of its).
"Game" was the subject in question, but I've reorganized the sentence to clear it up. --PresN 19:34, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
"may be the most impressive 2-dimensional graphics ever to grace an RPG". I'd say spell out the word "two" in the quote, because "2-dimensional" looks awkward. This is allowed per MOS:QUOTE as a "trivial spelling and typographic error" fix. Andrew Pfister's quote in the following sentence can begin with a lower-case "t" in "the" for this reason as well.
Done. --PresN 19:34, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
"4th annual Japan Game Awards" with an upper-case "A" in "Annual"?
Looks like the official name at the time was the "4th Japan Game Awards", switching in 2006 to "Japan Game Awards 2006", so I've dropped annual. ([1])
The reviewer for GamePro and A reviewer for Next Generation—just lose "reviewer for".
Done, though it's actually currently standard at FAC to keep that, rather than saying that the magazine itself said something. --PresN 19:35, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
I was going to comment on the indefinite singular pronoun in quotes like "no incentive to keep playing through what they felt" from an editor, but I guess the editor writing the review is representing the entire publication's opinion.
Switched to he anyway, so that it can't be confused with "the player"'s feelings, but they is a perfectly valid single-person pronoun even if the gender is known. That said, I also switched other "they"s where the gender was known to keep consistent. --PresN 19:34, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Images
File:Legend of Mana.jpg—non-free, box art, fine.
File:Legend of Mana battle.png—non-free. I contest the WP:NFCC#3 rationale, as I don't think the use is minimal. Per WP:IMAGERES I think the image needs to be either reduced further, or better yet replaced with an image that doesn't have a watermark in the corner.
Replaced with File:Legend of Mana battle.jpg, reduced to 320x240, and added a bit to the rationale. --PresN 21:47, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
File:Legend of Mana Land Make.png—non-free, same story. Can be reduced without interfering with quality.
Reduced to ~320x240, and added a bit to the rationale. --PresN 21:47, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
I think WP:NFCC#8 rationale on both images should be slightly expanded to explain why the image cannot be replaced with text, rather than to say "it shows what the game looks like".
Done. --PresN 21:47, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
File:Kawazu.jpg—free content. Look at that handsome devil.
File:Yoko Shimomura.jpg—free content.
Sources
agf on print sources.
RocketBaby probably doesn't have established reliability. Letting it slide since it's an interview.
#19 is down, and I need to see it because it's likely unreliable but I'll let it slide if it's an interview.
Archived; WP:VG/RS says that Music4Games is reliable even if it's not an interview (which is it). --PresN 18:46, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
All good. I was confused because the 404'd link redirected to Blogger, which set off my alarm bells. CR4ZE (t • c) 14:56, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Everything else checks out.
On hold for as long as need be. CR4ZE (t • c) 14:01, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Mostly done; the prose concerns are fixed, and remaining is: images need to be shrunk/FURs expanded; gameplay needs to be reorganized some to be clearer. --PresN 23:07, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Images done; just need to rework gameplay to be clearer. --PresN 21:47, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
No rush. I'm not strict on the one-week deadline for GANs. Just let me know when you're done with Gameplay. CR4ZE (t • c) 23:20, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
@PresN: Where are you at with this? It's been nearly two weeks. CR4ZE (t • c) 12:22, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
@CR4ZE: sorry, been really busy with impending fatherhood. Finished the last bit (re-organizing gameplay to not be so confusing) so I think I've addressed everything you brought up now. --PresN 18:51, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Not a problem. Good luck with it! CR4ZE (t • c) 10:07, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

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Hello, without accidentally ruining what's written on the article, I'd just like to add something of note. In the "Development and release" section, it says Shinichi Kameoka was new to the series. This is false, as he had previously done character concept art for Secret of Mana/Seiken 2, and Trials of Mana/Seiken 3 (in the latter title, he handed off drafts to Nobuteru Yūki for finalization).
Here is an archived (Japanese) interview with Kameoka and Tsuda, and their history together in the game industry. Hopefully it helps clarify some stuff, and I'd suggest revising that particular part of the Legend of Mana article. Magicwindsock (talk) 01:54, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

@Magicwindsock: Removed the bit that said he was new, you are correct, as per that interview he wasn't. Thank you! --PresN 04:21, 28 March 2023 (UTC)