# Talk:Foreign domestic helpers in Hong Kong

I had intended to add another section about the helpers' activities on Sundays, but I couldn't really find any notable sources.  Most of what I found were in travel blogs and other seemingly non-notable sources, or sources that may be notable but don't have much information about their Sunday activities.  Other interested editors, please help by finding a good source(s) and adding that extra section.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 07:17, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

There is a minor issue with the Chinese version article that is linked - that article is about 外籍家庭傭工, or foreign domestic helpers in general.  The scope of that article is supposed to cover Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore, but the content of the article only seems to cover those in Hong Kong, so that's why I linked that article to this one, and vice versa.  Also, that Chinese article doesn't seem to be very well written or sourced, so I did not translate anything from it.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 07:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I feel this article's name should be "Foreign domestic workers in Hong Kong" instead of the euphemistic "Foreign domestic helpers in Hong Kong". It is more accurate, these servants are workers, they work for their employers. LDHan 16:58, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

"Helper" is the official term used by the HK government.  "Foreign domestic helper" is not a constructed term.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:34, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

If anybody know of, or have, any free images of FDHs protesting, please either insert one in the article or let me know so I can insert one.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 23:54, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

The article covers very little of the work that they do, which is really the biggest part of the helpers lives, and their realtionship with their employers in practice (not just te regulations).
Also the picture with the Bank of China is a bit dark and gloomy - could someone brighten that up?  And a picture of someone working in a home would be good to show what they do! GB 01:39, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Good suggestions.  I'll see what I can find in terms of their work.  But unfortunately, usageable pictures seem to be kind of difficult to come by.  I would love to have a picture of FDHs in a protest march.  Plenty of them at online news sources, but I don't think any of them are free for us to use.  By the way, please consider contributing for WPHK!  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 02:27, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I am a newbie in wiki editing, but I just changed all the dollar signs to "HK$" as it is so confusing when using $ while majority of the readers reading this will think "$" means "US$"--EpicSurvival (talk) 00:24, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I suppose we take these things for granted. On the other hand, it is conventional to denominate financial figures in local currency unless otherwise stated. Thanks for your contribution. Ohconfucius (talk) 01:28, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

This article has a lot of room for expansion:

Image needed for FDHs in protest marches and while they're working.
Add section:  Sunday activities (Small amount of info can be found on Filipinos in Hong Kong, but that article has zero sources.)
Add section:  Work (Describes what kind of work they do, maybe other information specific to their occupation.)
Add section:  Recruitment and training (Any kind of information on recruitment and placement companies in HK, and whatever culinary and Cantonese language training that they may do.)
Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 02:41, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Some controversial topics in Hong Kong is not covered in the article.  For example, child abuse cases related to domestic helpers, non-domestic work in employer's business, business and discrimination in residential/commercial buildings; others topics include domestic helper agency, and life in employer's home. — HenryLi (Talk) 17:15, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I've added some content on the relatively recent case between Jacky Cheung and his foreign domestic worker - where Cheung's domestic worker was accused of and found guilty of theft from employer. Luke! 00:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks.  I've editted the addition a bit, adding some stuff and taking out specific statements that were not verified in the sources you provided.  Is there a source that specifically said that the magistrate called Jacky Cheung "courageous" for pressing charges?  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 02:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I was actually trying to look up the Magistrate's case decision to verify it but couldn't find it. Maybe you'll have better luck. Luke! 05:46, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
South China Morning Post 8 December 2006 in an article attributed to Jasmine Wang included "Magistrate Winston Leung Wing-chung said that, as a celebrity, it had taken great courage for Cheung to testify to the court." (Retrieved from the SCMP Archive, but that's a subscription service).
Thanks, will add that later if I cannot find another source that is freely available online.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 16:02, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I just realised we have 3 pictures, and all of them are of the FDHs congregating in specific locations on their day off on Sunday.  I think we really need to devote a section to their Sunday activities.  Unfortunately, a quick search only returns travel and tourist sites that mention this.  Please help find some more notable sources.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 16:23, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I have assessed this article according to the GA criteria. The article is broad enough in covering the topic and has several free images which is good for any article. The following things need to be fixed before I'll pass the article:

In the History section, don't use "opened up", consider expanding on the sentence to explain it better or use a different term, as the average reader may not know what this means.
In the History section, I believe marketting is spelled wrong (only one t); however, this is how it's spelled in American English, so adjust it according to Eastern Hemisphere English.
In the last sentence of the History section, it stands by itself. Either incorporate it into another paragraph or expand upon it.
Add inline citations for:

When the People's Republic of China "opened up" in the late 1970s and implemented wide-reaching economic reforms, Hong Kong became mainland China's biggest investor.
An employer must have a household income of at least HK$15,000 per month for each foreign domestic helper he or she employs. He or she must also pay a levy of HK$9,600 for employing a foreign domestic helper.
A foreign domestic helper is required to only perform the domestic duties outlined in the employment contract. She is also not allowed or required to take up any other employment with any other employer during the effective period of the employment contract.
A foreign domestic helper is to work and live in the employer's place of residence, and she is to be provided with suitable living accommodation with reasonable privacy.
A foreign domestic helper is entitled to one rest day every week, with the rest day being a continuous period of not less than 24 hours.
The government requires a foreign domestic helper to leave Hong Kong within two weeks of the termination of her employment contract unless she finds employment with another employer.
The government charges employers an equivalent of a HK$400 monthly levy for hiring a foreign domestic helper.
Good job altogether, you just mainly need some more inline citations. Fix the above suggestions within seven days and I'll pass the article. Let me know if you have any questions or when you're done, please let me know on my talk page. --Nehrams2020 19:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Alright let me work on these.  Thanks for looking at the article.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 19:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Let me know what you think of my edits/corrections:
Content concerns

I clarified the "opening up" of China by stating that China initiated trade with other countries.
I've corrected the spelling of "marketing".
I added a little clarification for this.  But more info will probably require that I find another source, because the source provided right now doesn't go into depth about the particular subject.  Let me know if you think it needs more.
Inline referencing

Most of these are actually in the source directly above the listing of regulations.  But I've provided an inline reference for each of the items you mentioned.
Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 22:19, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I have passed this article according to the GA criteria. Good job in fixing the above suggestions so quickly. Continue to improve the article by adding information with proper sources and inline citations. Keep up the good work and continue to improve the quality of articles on Wikipedia! --Nehrams2020 23:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks.  :-)  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 01:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I have some reservations about the section. Initially on reading it, I had contemplated adding a paragraph about the Fei Fei case, but thinking about it some, I concluded it would be non-NPOV to have the section and its contents. The case described clearly relates to a FDH under the employment of Jacky, and would be directly relevant to his article as a small paragraph. Indeed, it is only notable because of the high profile of her employer, JC, and not the helper in question. However, it is a minority case (one out of 300,000 FDHs in Hong Kong) whose description here I believe risks casting aspersions on the character of Filipino FDH in general. Ohconfucius (talk) 09:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Since it is only a single incident mentioned here focusing on one worker, and since it does not really show any real focus on all of the FDHs in general, I don't see it notable enough for inclusion. If there are multiple other cases that are similar to this one that could be included with information about the effects on people hiring FDHs, discriminating them, etc. then I would say the section should stay. If the section cannot be expanded to give a larger focus on the topic, then these single incidents are not notable enough to include in the article. I was initially wary of this when reviewing the article, but didn't push it at the time, believing it would be expanded. However, if the section can not be expanded with focus on the effects of the workers as a whole, it should be removed. --Nehrams2020 (talk) 07:43, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
It's been a month now, so I'll go ahead and remove the section. Ohconfucius (talk) 08:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Good call - I support that. Paul Christensen (talk) 15:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Oops I missed this entirely.  Yeah go ahead and delete it.  I'm neutral to it.  You're completely right in that the case was notable only because the woman's employer was Jacky Cheung.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Culture and Society" articles. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. I have made several minor corrections throughout the article. Altogether the article is well-written and is still in great shape after I passed it last year. Continue to improve the article making sure all new information is properly sourced and neutral. It would also be beneficial to go through the article and update all of the access dates of the inline citations and fix any dead links. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article history to reflect this review. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 (talk) 08:07, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Ohconfucius - good job maintaining and updating the article!  It looks very nice even though this is one of those articles that doesn't get much attention.  I especially like the fact that additions have been well-sourced.  I have been absent from active editing on WP for a while now but I am making a gradual return.  First thing I noticed about the article is that we need to find an alternative to Reference #11.  It seems the original source is no longer available.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 21:32, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks and welcome back. Ohconfucius (talk) 05:14, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I distinctly remember not putting ivory towers in quotes. I cannot recall the exact words, but they meant exactly the same thing but phrased differently - maybe commenting on their big cars and big apartments or somesuch - that I felt clumsy. Perhaps I should have used a direct quote, but I no longer have the relevant article to hand. ;-) Ohconfucius (talk) 02:09, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll remove the quotes, but maybe it's better not to use a figure of speech unless it's a quote.  Though it's probably not a big deal.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 13:12, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

So there was a protest against the levy yesterday.  The Standard reports "more than 100" marchers.[1]  That does not seem very significant.  Should we include this in the article?  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 14:08, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the protest in itself is not significant, - we've been there before, and I don't think it will come to much as it's no longer a hot political issue. However, there is some material in the article which can probably be used. I'll try and weave it in. See what yo think. Ohconfucius (talk) 01:38, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Looks good.  But remember to present the government's POV, too.  It probably didn't respond to the HKHRM's call for permanent abolition though.  If it did, the response should be included.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 01:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Found a couple of articles that may help expand the article:

http://www.law.uq.edu.au/articles/qlsr/Mok-FDH-in-HKG.pdf
http://www.tulane.edu/~economic/seminars/cortes_hongkong.pdf
Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 20:00, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

In the "common name" section, it says "At home, whereas many parents in Hong Kong find it unacceptable for kids to call domestic helpers "kung yen" (工人, maid) which may suggest a lower social ranking, foreign domestic helpers are usually intimately called "amah" (阿嬤) which resembles the Cantonese words for "mother" or "ahyee" (阿姨) / ÿee-yee"(姨姨 aunt)."  The search results from google seems to support the claim[2]. The tag for <fact> is added.  --Winstonlighter (talk) 07:51, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Agree with the tag, but don't know about abuse... counting of Google hits is not research. It just seems like some politically correct original research to me. As far as I am aware, the term 'amah' fell out of use in the late sixties/early seventies, and hasn't returned into current vernacular since. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 08:08, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
This article has been ranked WP:GA and if you'll notice, every piece of information in it has been referenced with a source (and if you find any that is not backed by credible sources, feel free to remove or edit).  This is why I keep removing your addition.  There's no source to back it up.  I'm trying to maintain article quality here by removing information that is not referenced.  It's a simple rule to follow - if you add a new piece of information, provide a credible source.  Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 14:02, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

The article is in the process of being updated. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 09:22, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

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I intend to include additional information for the following sections: Right to Abode, Prevalence and demographics, and Live-in Requirement. For the subsection "Right to Abode", I will add the information of loopholes used by domestic workers to gain permanent residency with a reference from the book Hong Kong: Migrant Lives, Landscapes, and Journeys ​by Caroline Knowles and Douglas A. Harper, published by the University of Chicago Press. I will specifically add the loophole of marriage and relationships. Secondly, in the section of "Prevalence and demographics", I'll add more information on Filipino domestic workers in regards to their education levels since 2001. I'll be using the same reference from Knowles and Harper, Hong Kong's Census and Statistic Department, and "Filipino and Indonesian Migrant Domestic Workers inHong Kong: Their Life Course in Migration" by Tim F. Liao and Rebecca Yiqing Gan, a peerreviewed article published SAGE Publications. Lastly, I intend to add the living conditions and dynamics of the domestic worker and employer in the subsection of "Live-in Requirement". I will add the perception of maids' within Chinese society and descriptions of the common living conditions experienced by domestic workers. Again, I will be using the Knowles and Harper reference for section. Overall, I'll add 200-300 words. If anyone wants to comment on these changes, please let me know on this Talk Page or on my Talk Page. (Emily415 (talk) 20:41, 30 November 2020 (UTC))

Just from reading what you have suggested, I think you should be very careful about the POV for your contribution. Suggesting that immigration pathways are considered 'loopholes' if they are taken by a particular group of people is very problematic. Also, generally speaking, wiki prefers that contributions be based on universally accessible sources, rather than academic books which cannot be cross-checked by other editors. I would suggest that you rely more on electronic media which can be cross-checked by other WPdians. Kdm852 (talk) 04:05, 1 December 2020 (UTC)