# Talk:Evan O'Neill Kane

This review is transcluded from Talk:Evan O'Neill Kane/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Sasata (talk · contribs) 16:54, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
I will review this article. Comments in a few days. Sasata (talk) 16:54, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for reviewing, I look forward to hearing from you. SpinningSpark 17:51, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
Comments: From reading the article and doing a bit of my own searching, I get the impression that the article is not yet well-developed enough to meet the criterion of "broad coverage". I was able to dig up several additions that could be used to expand the article with a 20-minute Google Book search, and I suspect that many more could be found with a trip to the library. Sasata (talk) 05:02, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

the lead needs to be expanded, it is currently not adequately summarizing the contents of the article
Done.
"Thomas L. Kane also played a role in preventing war with the Mormons" is there a relevant link for this? I'm unknowledgeable about American history, and wasn't aware there was potential war with the Mormons
Done.  The link is Utah War.  There had also previously been a real shooting war in Missouri - see 1838 Mormon War.
Kane's son is mentioned, but not his wife (did he have one? when were they married?)
Kane's son is notable, not to say notorious, but I have no information on his wife.  I have left a note on the talkpage of the editor who provided the genealogy reference which probably has the answer.
Now have the ref and done.
where did Kane go to school? when did he receive his degree? Did he have siblings? (yes, see here)
Most of Kane's siblings were already in the article (I missed one not involved in medicine).  His college is noted in the infobox already, but I will put it in running text also.  Unfortunately, the source does not give a date.
"The arctic explorer Elisha Kent Kane is related," related how?
Done
Could we cite the original publication in which Kane advocates or describes music therapy? (Kane, E. O. (1914). Phonograph in operating-room. Journal of the American Medical Association, 57, 1829.)
Done
is Kane's invention used today (or was it ever used)?
The short answer is I don't know.  I understand that there is a modern practice to administer hypodermoclysis at two sites if a greater rate is required.  Whether or not that is a direct descendant of Kane's idea I don't know - Kane's device used a minimum of four sites.  I will expand with what I know and leave the rest to the reader.
in this publication, Kane talks about using fire-proof asbestos surgical dressing
Done
"Kane has something of a history"  colloquial
Don't really agree that is colloquial.  After all,"a history of..." is a common enouh phrase in medicine to describe conditions and behaviours of patients.
the citation to Time is behind a paywall and so needs a (subscription required) tag
Done
the isbn for ref #8 (Kane 1900/2009) is non-functional, and the publisher BiblioBazaar  publishes historical reprints. Wouldn't it just be better to cite the original as found here?
The ISBN works for me at both Google and Amazon.  However, I have changed the cite to point to the Internet Archive which has a freely accessible digitised copy.  This is an earlier publication than your link (but probably an identical article).
the "Kane Manor Inn" (see Anoatok) was listed in the National Register of Historic Places in 1986. There are several details about Kane's early life that could be extracted from the NHRP nomination form
Some details added
any chance that the photo circulating of him self-operating might be in public domain? According to this source, it was published in 1925
Love to use it, but it is of the 1932 operation and I have no evidence that it is public domain.  I am not aware of any photographs from the 1921 appendectomy.
Please cite this paper: Kane, E. O. (March 1921), "Autoappendectomy: A Case History", International Journal of Surgery, 34(3): 100-2. It may have more details that could be added.
Done
Kanes's name is mentioned here in William Wood (born 1656) of Earlsferry, Scotland and some of his descendants and their connections; any idea who Blanche and Lila Rupert are?
Yes, they are his first and second wives.  Now in the article via another source.
this document (the Jefferson Medical College Alumni Bulletin of 1933) may give a clue as to when Kane started teaching at this college; see his mention on p. 18
Surely that is his graduation date. Why do you think he was teaching here?
there's a tantalizing google books snippet here that suggests that Kane was perhaps implicated in appropriating hospital funds for his own use? Any chance of locating this?
Can't get any more out of google than that and the journal is not kept anywhere in the UK according to WorldCat.  The nearest library is Leipzig - by coincidence I will be flying into Leipzig early next year but I don't think I will have time to do any research.  I have asked for help at WP:LIBRARY but there is no guarantee that it will happen any time soon.
Material now added to the article.
Kane's self-operating procedures gained him some measure of fame in the popular press, both contemporary (see for example Popular Science here) and even now in books that are compilations of "weird medical facts" or self-motivational books (see e.g. here and here); perhaps this could be mentioned with a few examples?
Done, but your link for Popular Science goes somewhere else and I can't get any kind of preview for the last link.
anything useful to include from these articles? (found these sources from here)
"Operates on Himself for the Second Time. Dr. Evan Kane Uses Local Anesthetic–Had Previously Cut Out His Own APpendix", New York Times", Jan 8, 1932
"Pennsylvania Surgeon Operates on Himself, Successfully Removing His Appendix", New York Times, February 16, 1921
"Surgeon Who Removed Own Appendix Back at Work 2 Weeks Later", New York Times", March 8, 1921
I've added the second one as a ref.  I don't have access to NYT.  It does not seem likely that the other two will have more information than we already have, they are reporting the same story.  Probably not worth troubling someone to retrieve them.
this source says he was an Honorary Member of the Regimental Association of the Bucktails (and the son of a Bucktail!)
His father was not only a bucktail, he was the commander of the regiment.  I am struggling though, to see what is notable about this for Evan Kane.  Certainly, it is notable for his father, but for Evan it seems to be just that his father let him into his "club".  Difficult to say for sure as I can only see snippets, but Tom Kane Jr is also mentioned giving a speech and seems to be taking a more active part than Evan.
I'm seeing the titles of journal articles he wrote in Google Books snippets (they sound interesting) and am thinking a list of publications would be a beneficial encyclopaedic addition to the article
Done
this snippet suggests he suffered serious x-ray burns around 1918?
Can't find any more on this.  Can't really see how to work it into the article sensibly without more of the story.  The search did, however, turn up an article by him on Radium therapy which I have added to the publications list.
another interesting snippet here, "he is surgeon for five railroads, that during the last three years he has performed 1,000 surgical operations, a large proportion of them being for…" ??
Done. The word you are missing is Laparotomy in case you were interested.
possible copyvio/close paraphrasing issues (? - not sure which text came first)
Article: "On another occasion, in 1932 at the age of 70, Kane repaired his own inguinal hernia under local anaesthetic. The hernia had been caused by a horse riding accident six years earlier. The operation was carried out at the Kane Summit Hospital with the press, including a photographer, in attendance."
Source: "On another occasion, in 1932 at the age of 70, Kane repaired his own inguinal hernia under local anaesthetic. The hernia had been caused by a horse riding accident six years earlier. The operation was carried out at the Kane Summit Hospital with the press, including a photographer, in attendance."

I don't even recall looking at that source.  I inserted the text in 2009, well over a year before the first capture of the page by the Wayback machine.  The site copyright line also says 2010.  It was a long time ago now, and it is always possible that I made a mistake and pasted something into the article instead of my notes, but I don't believe that is the case and distinctly remember writing "keyhole surgery", which was a paraphrase of the source I actually used, and wondering if that would be considered OR.  In the absence of evidence to the contrary I claim this as my own work licensed to Wikipedia.
SpinningSpark 00:11, 12 November 2011 (UTC) to 00:56, 12 November 2011 (UTC) to 21:07, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
I think we need a discussion concerning your comment about "Broad coverage".  The GA criteria say of this "This requirement is significantly weaker than the "comprehensiveness" required of featured articles; it allows shorter articles, articles that do not cover every major fact or detail, and overviews of large topics."  While I would certainly not want to use that as an excuse for not improving the article, it is not really practical to provide a major expansion during the course of a review.  If that is really what is needed then it would be best to withdraw the nomination for now. SpinningSpark 11:14, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Well, it's my opinion that the article, as it currently stands, does not meet the broad coverage requirement of GA. I've provided a list of relatively easily accessible sources that could be used to be beef up coverage–not with the idea that all of these must be included for promotion, but with the hope that you would go through the suggestions and add the ones you agreed were beneficial. I view GAR as a collaborative review process in which we both work together to improve the article, which is why I provided suggestions for extra sources rather than just, say, failing the article outright for not meeting my expectations of broad coverage. If you don't feel you can expand the article in the normal timeframe for a GAR and would like to withdraw to work on it at a pace that works within your time schedule, that's fine. If you want to argue about the definition of broad coverage as it pertains to GA criteria, I decline—I'd much rather be spending my time working on improving articles. We could ask for a second opinion if you're convinced my expectations are out of alignment with the GA criteria (I'm happy to go with consensus). Sasata (talk) 18:58, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Ok, let me go through the suggestions in detail and then see where we stand.  I am likewise not very interested in a dispute about the rules.  My concern was really that you might be saying this would be a fail even with the suggestions incorporated, but that does not now seem to be the case.  This might be slow going because I am working out of the country for the next few weeks, please be tolerant, real life... SpinningSpark 23:35, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
How's the review coming? Started well but no comments in two weeks. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 17:52, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Looks like it's coming along fine to me. Spinningspark indicated above that his internet access was patchy due to travel, but he's been working on the suggestions above. Sasata (talk) 18:49, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
I am currently working in Germany and only have a small-screen notepad with me.  It is not really possible for me to review sources effectively at the moment and I have little time for Wikipedia - barely just keeping up with my watchlist.  I will pick up this review again when I return to England in a week or two, but I would be cool with the review being closed and resubmitted later if you can't wait that long. SpinningSpark 20:20, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
I think I have now gone about as far as I can with the suggestions. Now waiting for the review to be completed. SpinningSpark 21:08, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Looking good SS! I will reread the article in the next couple of days and wrap up the review. Sasata (talk) 21:34, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
the lead could be a little bit longer, and the stubby one/two sentence paragraphs could be combined; how about mentioning his son's murder trial, and the Anoatok home?
I have incorporated your suggestions in the lede.  An article this short would not be expected to have a very long lede, otherwise it will start to merely repeat the article.
there's not enough information in the "Education and career" to justify it being a separate section; the second sentence is mentioned in the next section anyway.
Incorporated into the Kane Hospital section.  None of the existing sections are particularly suitable (hence the orphaned snippet) but this is about the most relevant.
Similarly, is there anything more that could be said about Kane's alcohol opposition? Could it be combined somewhere else? How about a quote box with "If our soldiers cannot find agreeable amusement without booze to make it attractive it is time that a determined effort to refine their depraved taste be made by the officers, who have plenty of spare time on their hands" Sasata (talk) 06:45, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
Expanded a bit and added the suggested quote.  Can't see that it can sensibly be merged with anything else.
Thanks once again for reviewing this article. SpinningSpark 18:37, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
You're welcome, and thanks to you for your efforts in expanding and improving the article. I believe that it now fully complies with the GA criteria, and shall  promote it forthwith. Cheers, Sasata (talk) 21:09, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Did I have to pick a less narcissistic doctor?

I noticed that this picture is linked from a discovery Blog. I would be happy to ask them if the photo is in the public domain or where they got it from rick_weinberg@caboces.org — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rickweinberg (talk • contribs) 

I have moved your comment out of the GA review page because that review has now closed.  The photo is credited in the Discovery article you referred to to AP/Wide World Photos so is almost certainly not in the public domain.  One can buy a licence here. SpinningSpark 22:27, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Elisha Kent Kane is the guy who was charged with murdering his wife in the Chesapeake Bay. There is no word of their children or his passing that I can tell. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rickweinberg (talk • contribs) 18:11, 15 April 2014 (UTC) 

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I have reverted a good swathe of these to the point before mass changes to the article citation style started.  This really is not permissible per WP:CITEVAR.  The article was created with citations not using cite templates, and that is the style that should be followed unless there is consensus to do otherwise.  There is no such thing as "standard markup" as claimed in one of the edit summaries as a reading of CITEVAR will make clear.  See also MOS:STYLERET for the more general principle.  I know that there is some inconsistency in citation style now, but that is only because later editors have added a few citations with templates.  If consistency is the concern, then those citations should be made consistent with the original style.
There are a few other issues that I have with those edits;

No reason is given for removal of redlinks other than that they were redlinks.  Both Railroad worker and Kane Summit Hospital are potentially articles and should be retained per WP:REDDEAL.
The claim of Kane being the first to use music therapy in surgery has again been tagged as a primary source.  This is a failure to read the sources.  The Kane source is primary, but is only verifying the statement of Kane's own opinion.  The citation for him being first is Salz at the end of the passage.
The merging of the IP's new source for KCH with the existing one is erroneous.  This new url may be the present version of the old page, but it is completely different and missing much of the information in the archive.
I have a problem with removing the adjective "sensational" from Kane's son's trial.  This was far from a run-of-the-mill murder trial as the sources make clear, with crowds gathered outside the courthouse.  Just saying "trial" does not do justice to what was going on.
I'm sorry I felt the need to mass revert this, but there were just too many problems to deal with individually.  I'll go through the edits later and put back any substantive, useful ones. SpinningSpark 15:45, 15 October 2019 (UTC)