# Talk:Oakland Coliseum station

From an anonymous contributor: I'm not going to bother to start a revert war with Will74205, but I do hope that others will gradually reintroduce the corrections that I had made. In some cases it's a matter of correct English grammar and in other cases, of usage conventions demonstrated in a transit agency's public materials.
In a sentence beginning "The Amtrak Capitol Corridor's Oakland Coliseum Station...", the article is necessary. (Compare "Amtrak's Philadelphia - 30th Street Station...", where it is incorrect to use the article.) The names "Amtrak" and "Amtrak Capitol Corridor" have different values.
In a sentence beginning "The AirBART shuttle bus and AC Transit bus routes 50 and 805 all run between...", the initial article is necessary. Omitting a definite or indefinite article here is an obvious grammatical error.
With respect to BART (but not necessarily other transit agencies), this possessive construction is common: "BART's <noun>", but this one is never used: "Bay Area Rapid Transit's <noun>". The second construction should be "The Bay Area Rapid Transit District's <noun>". The names "BART" and "Bay Area Rapid Transit" have different values.
And so on...

If someone could clean up some of the grammar here I would highly appreciate it, I have to admit I have poor copyediting skills --JVittes 04:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Everything looks good now, should we merge the articles? --Will74205 20:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry I was gone on vacation, go ahead have the articles all merged, by redirecting the other two to here, and I'll try to find places to direct link from, as in the BART, the 3 BART line articles, and Capitol Corridor, also Oakland International Airport, and airBART, if any others are found go ahead and direct link. --JVittes 22:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I made an svg map of the general area to make a sample map here [1], the original SVG file is here [2]. Suggestions as to what to do would be appreciated; Will74205 if you wish to edit the SVG map to make a map please go ahead and do so, note that since it still has the layer from google maps as reference it cannot be copied to wikipedia, so I have not done so, but the a png file that does not show it can be. --JVittes 20:36, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
The maps are very impressive!!!!! You should upload the maps yourself, either just to the English Wiki or the Commons. I don't want to take credit from you. What software you used to create/edit these maps? I am not that familiar with graphic editing so you might do a better job, but I would include the Amtrak parking lot and perhaps enlarge the Amtrak platform a little bit. --Will74205 04:34, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
All I do is make screenshots of the area I want from the map view or hybrid view of the google map version I made http://www.stanford.edu/~jvittes/bayareatransit4.html, once I have the screenshot I want I use Inkscape, I load in the screenshot, then start drawing on top of it. Inkscape is very awesome, available for free at http://www.inkscape.org/, I started using it because that's what the SVG files for the Caltrain and BART pages were made with. It is surprisingly easy to use, I started with wanting to make a map for the ACE commuter train service, I put that one here, http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:ACE_map_plain.svg, they are easily editable. Png file is now at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Oakland_Coliseum.png, SVG file at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Oakland_Coliseum_plain.svg. Try using Inkscape to edit the SVG files, I think you'll find it quite a useful tool. --JVittes 05:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I am attempting to clean up excessive detail, overly wordy sections, and incorrect information. This includes:

Rewriting the lede for clarity and to summarize the history
General cleanup of the infobox, including a variety of unneeded details like airport icons next to bus numbers and excessive bolding
Remove the listing of fares
Fix claims that one track is the Coast Subdivision (it is actually all the Niles Subdivision) and that the Coast Starlight only uses Track 1, neither of which are supported by the source
Removing a claim about a fence which is supported only by a Google Maps link, and not particularly relevant
Copyediting the wordy description of the BART station layout
Removing the station layout diagram - this merely duplicates the prose, while greatly increasing the length of the page and possibly interfering with screen readers
Removing the table of bus routes that shows destinations and service details. The article should show only the official bus numbers (and official names if they exist, but they appear not to).
General citation cleanup - using {{cite web}} and its derivatives for all citations
Swapping images and their locations to best illustrate the article (like moving a bus image to the bus connections section)
My proposed version can be seen here. My attempts thus far to implement these changes have been reverted by Titanosaurus, who originally added most of the detail that I find excessive. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 05:59, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Link to discussion at WikiProject Trains. TITANOSAURUS 20:03, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Since dispute resolution failed, I am going to boldly implement changes that should be uncontroversial - either because they unquestionably improve the article, or because they implement sitewide policies like the manual of style and the need for reliable sources. Since these changes have been reverted in the past because I lumped them in with more controversial edits, I am doing to perform them in chunks and explain them more completely than the edit summary here. I am adding {{in use}} while I work; please wait to change anything till I am done working (no more than a couple hours).


### Part 1: infobox and lede
line: this is for the physical railway line that a station is located on, not the services (like BART's 5 colored services) which are listed later. I put "BART main line" for now, but I will attempt to add a reliable source for the official name (BART names their sections of track as "S Line" and so on).
other: I removed the airport icons because they are not part of the bus numbers in any BART literature - they are only present on the far right side of rollsigns, which are not official names. De-bolded the agency names per MOS:NOBOLD. Removed the poorly formatted reference - it's already cited in the bus connections section. I made the link to Bay Farm Island more useful.
bicycle: no need for excess detail; the total number of racks may be worthwhile but dividing by type is unnecessary.
opened: removed {{time ago}} - it makes for some awkward formatting with the double parentheses, and the dates are recent enough to not need clarification.
rebuilt: Moved the OAK line opening to here, since it was a renovation (expansion) of an existing station rather than a completely new station.
route map: This makes more sense with the description of the station layout, where I'll be moving it soon.
map_locator: This is duplicative of information present elsewhere in the infobox - the address and the coordinates with map pulldown.
lede: Standard copyediting. I will move the citation about the pedestrian bridge to the station layout section. No need to cite that it's the Airport Connector terminus - that's an obvious, uncontroversial fact.
Pi.1415926535 (talk) 05:08, 24 January 2018 (UTC)


### Part 2: History
Mostly just copyediting to reduce wordiness. A couple statement need citations, which I'll try to dig up later. Added some details about the history of airport connection plans, and cleaned up citations. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 06:51, 24 January 2018 (UTC)


### Part 3: Station layout
Images: I'll be moving the bus image to the bus section, and adding the station map as a final edit once I see what the formatting looks like.
Sources: Openrailwaymap is a user-editable site; while it's a wonderful resource, it is not a reliable source (and contains errors) and is not an appropriate citation. I have also removed the citation to Nextdoor, which is a neighborhood gossip site.
Layout diagram: I moved these into the individual sections to better integrate them with the prose, and to make it more obvious that the Amtrak and BART stations are separate. I removed bolding per MOSBOLD, and some superfluous citations; I also modified widths to reduce the number of line breaks and thus reduce the amount of scrolling required to read the page.
Amtrak: General copyediting and citation cleanup. I removed references to the Coast Subdivision - the cited source and other official documents (example) make it clear that contrary to Openrailwaymap's claim, the Coast Subdivision ends at CP NORTH ELMHURST well south of Coliseum.
BART: Again, general copyediting; I combined the prose about the main BART and OAK-BART platforms and improved citations.
Fencing: I removed this sentence for two reasons. One, it's not relevant - fencing is a normal part of any construction project; it's only worth mentioning when it causes significant issues or is the subject of controversy. Second, neither of the cited documents actually talk about fencing actually being installed on the bridge; they only talk about the general need for fencing of the ROW as a whole, and Google Maps alone is not a reliable source.
Pi.1415926535 (talk) 07:58, 24 January 2018 (UTC)


### Part 4: Bus connections
Obviously, this is the most disputed section of the article. I have changed it to what I believe is information agreed on by everyone: an image of bus operations at the station, a list of what bus numbers serve the stop, where buses stop at the station, and that is serves as an important interchange. We can start from there and discuss what does and doesn't belong.

I chose an image that shows the whole bus transfer area, rather than a single bus without context, but I'm open to other opinions.
I removed the word "vital", which has connotations that make it not an ideal descriptor unless a source uses that word.
I removed the reference to the daily ridership of the routes - for the time being - for two reasons. One, the source only gave yearly ridership; trying to translate that into daily ridership (because weekends have different ridership) would be original research. Second, the sources do not establish that all those passengers actually transfer at the station - and the number of bus passengers that actually use the station is what would be important to the article. A source that gives that number would be welcomed.
I am not necessarily opposed to having a list with a single bullet item for each bus route, including the default terminals. However, details like part-time terminals and alternate routings are service information that may belong on List of AC Transit routes, but do not belong in an article about a station that those routes happen to stop at. This article is about the station, not about the services that run to it. (It's no different from putting information about Capitol Corridor stopping patterns, and what railway lines it runs on, in the Capitol Corridor article rather than here). I also am very wary about putting the information in a table - it takes up more space than a list, is more difficult to edit, and less convenient for screen readers, but doesn't actually add to the quality of the information being presented. Form should folllow function.
Pi.1415926535 (talk) 08:55, 24 January 2018 (UTC)


### Part 5: images and final cleanup
Moved commons category to the right to reduce whitespace
Added separate coordinates for Amtrak platform
Re-added the SVG map
Removed "See also" that's already linked in a footer template
Modified caption for infobox image
Citation for some history - the last
While I understand that not everyone is going to be happy with every single change I have made, hopefully these explanations make clear why I have made these changes, and where they can be improved upon and why I have removed some information and citations. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 09:20, 24 January 2018 (UTC)


### Further discussion
I am going to likewise make some changes of my own, and here is an explanation for each of the changes I am going to make:
line: Per Template:Infobox station, the line section is supposed to display the name of the passenger services stopping at the station, not the physical line that it is located on, so I am going to re-add the service information.
other: The airport logo is not only used on bus signs, it is also used on all Oakland Airport-bound bus stops along routes 73 and 805 as an official indication that both services go to the airport, I will link to a picture of a bus stop used by both bus services to prove this if necessary.
map_locator: The map should be included with the article as it allows readers to easily understand where exactly the station is in Oakland without having to unnecessarily leave the page.
Sources: I am not going to re-add my sources at this moment, but I may in the future, and I would like to add a couple of notes on your statement. OpenRailwayMap is peer-reviewed and used by rail and tech companies around the world. Your new acerail.com source that you just displayed is perfectly fine and something I won't dispute, but your original "government source" was pretty questionable as it was in fact composed by a outside subcontractor, and even said that it shouldn't be used a definitive representation of the physical layout of the line in the very beginning of it, but I will otherwise leave it alone as I at least find its track layout information to be accurate. My NextDoor sourcing focused on the well-researched mapping aspect of the site, not the "gossiping", and if you were to compare the neighborhood maps on that website to similar maps on Google Maps and City-Data, you would find them to be very similar, albeit more detailed than the latter two. TITANOSAURUS 02:38, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Nope, nope, maybe, and absolutely nope. I am about to revert two of your edits as disruptive - especially since you cannt be bothered to provide edit summaries as you are supposed to.
The description on {{infobox station}} is dated and no longer correct. @Secondarywaltz:, I believe you may be able to give more details about it. Correct current usage is the physical railway line.
The airport logo is still not the official name of the route; bus stop signs are not a reliable source. Give a reliable source for them being part of the official names, because they sure aren't shown with airport logos on the AC Transit website - and the rollsigns and stops only show the airport logo in the airport-bound direction.
The dropdown map in the coordinates does not require leaving the page - so what benefit does the awkward map_locator actually give? You need to stop repeating information in multiple places on the same page.
ORM is only peer-reviewed in the sense that Wikipedia is; it absolutely fails the basic qualifications as a reliable source. Evidence for it being peer reviewed? Don't confuse "used as a quick unofficial lookup" with "used as a definitive reference". It is rife with errors and incomplete data; go talk to WP:RSN to get explained to since you refuse to listen to me. And yet you doubt an official government report because it was produced by a contractor? I haven't the foggiest idea what purpose NextDoor possibly serves as a citation in the first place. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 02:59, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Until you can actually prove, and not speculate, that the infobox is supposed to display the physical line, it should be displayed as is, otherwise you're the one being disruptive. Bus stop signage and bus "roll sign" information are both officially administered by AC Transit, that is as official and reliable as it gets and doesn't need an "reliable online" source to reinforce its credibility as both routes end at Oakland Airport and the usage of the logo makes sense. Regardless, perhaps I should source a report compiled by a subcontractor that proves this anyways? I will do whatever I think keeps our readers in the light, and the coordinates links unnecessarily require readers to go to GeoHack to look at a map of the station when one can simply be presented on the page in the infobox. To generally compare OpenRailwayMap with Wikipedia like that is just lazy and shows a lack of knowledge of that website, anonymous IP addresses cannot edit OpenRailwayMap like Wikipedia, and any edit made must be approved by reviewers before it is published, however, OpenRailwayMap does absolve itself of any liability in the event that it displays wrong information, not unlike your original "government report". TITANOSAURUS 03:21, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
You do realize that clicking on the little globe pulls up an overlay map, right? Pi.1415926535 (talk) 03:30, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
The map isn't displaying properly on my desktop (502 gateway error), and the globe doesn't appear on mobile versions of the website so I cannot confirm this. Regardless I will then assume good faith and remove the map under the impression that the map just doesn't work on my end. TITANOSAURUS 03:40, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
You're correct. I've put out a talk page notice, but until that issue is fixed I've re-added the map locator. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 03:50, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
@Titanosaurus: The documentation for Infobox station was outdated; it's a relic from when the services section didn't exist, plus some ambiguity (since resolved) about the difference between a line and a service. Another outgrowth of that discussion was the maintenance of separate {{infobox rail line}} and {{infobox rail service}} templates. Line should not be a restatement of service. Best, Mackensen (talk) 13:59, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

@Mackensen: What I am trying to find out and what I have been asking Pi.1415926535 is where and when was this exactly discussed, I see a mention of the "services" field on the page, but the field doesn't work when I try to apply it to the page, and I see no discussion on the talk page that details what goes into that field, nor the "line" field. TITANOSAURUS 17:40, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
I doubt that there was one single central discussion; there often isn't for that kind of thing. Usage evolved over time. Mackensen (talk) 13:32, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
I see, so the physical line goes into the line field, while the services are displayed on the bottom, got it, I will revert my edit to that field and make it display the physical line that it's on again. TITANOSAURUS 17:38, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Oakland Coliseum station/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) 09:46, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Comments

Any reason why this article bucks the trend of bold linking all of the title in the lead?
 Done
Wouldn't Coliseum/Oakland Airport station be an appropriate redirect?
 Done
Where is street address (in the infobox) referenced?
 Done
"Oakland–Alameda County Coliseum Arena" is piped to a redirect, any reason?
 Done
I don't think you need to keep emboldening the "Coliseum" in every use, it's quite intrusive and not MOS.
 Done Unbolded a duplicate.
"station - two mainline" should be an en-dash rather than a hyphen.
 Done
Lots of overlinking in the three tables (e.g. Coast Starlight, UP, Fruitvale, San Leandro...)
 Partly done I've reduced overlinking as much as possible; there's a couple duplicates due to the templates used.
"side platform" is overlinked.
 Done
"at the station:[23][19]" order refs.
 Done
Refs:
NO SHOUTING.
 Done
Ensure either publication or access date (or both) are there.
 Done
Retrieval dates need to be consistent formats.
 Done
Check all external links are RS and rep;lace spaced hyphens with spaced en-dashes.
 Done
That's all I have for now, it's in good shape.  On hold while we go over these.  Cheers. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 14:23, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the review! I believe I've addressed all your concerns above. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 21:29, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
Still missing some info on some refs, e.g. ref 1 has no access date.  And some overlinking still there (e.g. line names on the track tables). The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 08:33, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
I've added the access date and reducing one incidence of overlinking. Unfortunately, the line names are probably not fixable within the scope of this GA review - the links are added by the {{rail color box}} template (which in turn uses links generated by {{adjacent stations}}). But that's only three duplicate links total. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 19:01, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
Ok, this is all good now, well now.  Promoting. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 07:11, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

@Pi.1415926535: and @Titanosaurus: — Your recent edits feel like we’re venturing into WP:OWNERSHIP territory: No one, no matter what, has the right to act as though they are the owner of a particular article (or any part of it). Some contributors feel possessive about material they have contributed to Wikipedia. A few editors will even defend such material against others. It is quite reasonable to take an interest in an article on a topic you care about—perhaps you are an expert, or perhaps it is just your hobby; however, if this watchfulness starts to become possessiveness, then you are overdoing it.
Also, Titanosaurus, I’d like to take this moment to remind you that you were previously punished for similar actions on this very same article. RickyCourtney (talk) 15:21, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

RickyCourtney, I understand your concern about the recent back and forth editing on this page. However, my intention in reverting some of Pi.1415926535's edits was not to violate the Wikipedia:Ownership of content rule, but rather to ensure that the article remained easy to read and encyclopedic. While I do have a personal interest in this topic and have contributed a lot of content to this article, I do not feel possessive about it.
I also want to address your mention of my previous punishment for similar actions on this article. I take full responsibility for my actions in the past and have learned from my mistakes. I am committed to working collaboratively and in good faith with all editors on this article going forward.
I understand that Pi.1415926535 and I have a history of disagreement on this article, and I am willing to engage in civil and respectful discussions to try and find a resolution. I hope that we can all work together to improve the quality of the article and move forward in a positive direction. TITANOSAURUS 20:49, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
I'm happy to hear that you intend to collaborate. However, your good faith needs to be demonstrated in actions, not just words – in particular, accepting that others may disagree with your preferred wording. Your most recent revert re-added a number of issues, some of which were introduced by your edits from several weeks ago and some of which were older. Many of them are things like MOS compliance that should not be controversial; I find it particularly strange that you have repeatedly changed those.
The Oakland Coliseum station complex: Only one of the two stations is actually called "Oakland Coliseum"; having this be the opening of the article is misleading. The previous first paragraph was more clear.
along with Richmond station: too much detail for the lede
It was soon connected to its namesake: No reason to remove this
it closed on October 18: again, no reason to remove this
On July 1, 1977,...: This is one of several cases where having the date first makes the wording awkward.
Amtrak's Coast Starlight service began using the Union Pacific right-of-way in 1971,...: Two issues here. One, "long-distance" is useful context for why the Coast Starlight did not make local stops, and there was no reason to remove it. Two, your wording is ambiguous, as it implies that the Coast Starlight switched to that line from a different line. The previous wording makes it clear that the service began in 1971.
The new $6.6 million Oakland Coliseum station opened on June 6, 2005 and included a newly built connection...: no reason to remove "accessible", and see MOS:DATECOMMA.
Construction on the line began in October 2010, and it was officially renamed...: Awkward comma splice. Also, I'm not sure "officially" is needed, given that the renaming was quiet rather than publicly announced.
although AC Transit still provides a bus connection: not relevant to this station. Bus destinations were already discussed in the RFC you started.
began construction in: Buildings are inanimate objects and do not begin construction; they are constructed.
the 73rd Avenue cul-de-sac: no reason to remove this
three sets of benches: not supported by the cited source
Capitol Corridor trains regularly meet at the CP 66th Avenue and CP Coliseum interlockings, located immediately north and south of the station, respectively, as the service primarily operates on a single-track between Oakland and San Jose. I removed this claim because it is unsourced. Unsourced claims are not appropriate for good articles.
Niles Subdivision: obvious case of WP:REDYES
elevated three-level structure: term should be linked on the first usage in this paragraph - see MOS:LINKONCE
Oakland Subdivision: no reason to remove this link.
the Coliseum-Oakland International Airport line platform features: no need to specify which line - it's already specified a few sentences above. "Features" borders on MOS:FLOWERY and isn't needed. This version of the paragraph is too wordy.
Coliseum-Oakland: MOS:ENDASH
The Oakland Coliseum station is one... All of the bus connections are at Coliseum station (BART), not Oakland Coliseum station (Amtrak).
eight AC Transit bus routes: no reason to remove this link
These shuttle services: The previous sentence already explained that these are shuttle services. No need to reiterate.
Trainweb link: This is largely depreciated as an external link. It's a self-published fansite, and any relevant images can be transferred to Commons (see commons:Template:Usarail).
Category:Railway stations in the United States opened in 2014: no reason to remove this
Pi.1415926535 (talk) 23:30, 28 December 2022 (UTC)