# Talk:French Sudan

Does anyone know why on earth it was called Soudan, when the British Sudan was thousands of kilometres away near the other side of the continent?  It seems odd for two places so far removed to have the same name. --Saforrest 13:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, what he or she said! I was just about to add that exact question; instead, let me second it. I too am puzzled by this odd sharing of names--Rkstafford 14:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I concur! Mindman1 00:45, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Sudan and Soudan are generic European terms for the Savana climate belt that runs across Africa, just south of the Sahel (the semi arid zone south of the Sahara).  The colonial territories were British Sudan and French Soudan. Someone should add this to Sudan. :T L Miles 13:22, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

What is the person on the flag doing?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.175.114.84 (talk) 22:55, 28 September 2012 (UTC) 

I've added significantly to the page the past couple of days and it now at least includes the major parts of the colony for further development.  However, I don't have time to delve into the complex and difficult Tuareg policy of the colony during the 60 years of existence.  For any future editors, this is a key area for possible expansion.  Cheers. AbstractIllusions (talk) 03:27, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:French Sudan/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Brigade Piron (talk · contribs) 17:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello! I'm happy to review this, if that's OK? It's always nice to see more high-class African articles! Looks pretty close to GA, with just some minor tweaks needed but I'll read it through properly and leave more specific feedback presently.Brigade Piron (talk) 17:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for reviewing this, Brigade Piron! I notice that the original nominator, QatarStarsLeague, has not edited Wikipedia in nearly a month, and this nomination has been open a week with no activity. I would hate to see this fail to achieve GA status when it's so close to passing. So I'm volunteering to take over an nominator, and I'll gladly step aside if QatarStarsLeague returns. I'll try to address your concerns below as best I can. I hope to finish in the next day or two. – Quadell (talk) 18:33, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Thank you very much for that! It would have been a shame for it to fail on a technicality! I'm very happy to pass it, congratulations!Brigade Piron (talk) 14:06, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Body of the article (more-or-less chronological)
First sentence; it's not quite clear what it is, relative to AOF. Could you perhaps rephrase it to something like: "...was a French territory and part of the colony of French West Africa from around 1880 until 1960."?
Well, the French West Africa article describes it as "a federation of eight French colonial territories". I reworded the first sentence here to be clearer and more accurate. Hope it's okay now? – Quadell (talk) 18:33, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
"French Sudan originally formed as a set of military outposts as an extension of the French colony in Senegal" - link to the appropriate Senegal article. Cite too please.
Linked and cited. – Quadell (talk) 20:37, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
"...governor of Senegalit formally..." Is this a typo?
The word "Senegalit" is sometimes used in other languages to refer to the territory, I think. Removed. – Quadell (talk) 18:33, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
"...executed without civilian control..." What does this mean?
Reworded. – Quadell (talk) 20:37, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
"In the "Administration and jurisdiction" section, could you put the French names for each of the names?
I'm not entirely sure which names you mean. I put French versions for the main colony names, but I didn't think it appropriate to include French versions of the names of modern countries. – Quadell (talk) 12:43, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
The French colonies named in the same section - could you wiki link to the article about the colony (assuming they exist) rather than the modern country?
Yes. There is unfortunately no article on Côte d'Ivoire under French administration, so I guess Ivory Coast is the best link for that one. But I changed Dahomey to French Dahomey. The others are, I think, already correct. – Quadell (talk) 12:43, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Link to Burkina Faso please.
Done. – Quadell (talk) 18:41, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
"At that point, a reorganization of the colony split 11 southern provinces to other French colonies like French Guinea, the Côte d'Ivoire and Dahomey." - cite please.
Done. – Quadell (talk) 12:43, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
"At that point, the colony of the French Upper Volta (modern Burkina Faso) dissolved, and the northern territory was added to French Sudan." - cite.
Done. – Quadell (talk) 12:43, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
"The colony supported mostly rain-fed agriculture, with limited irrigation for its first 30 years." cite please.
That's also covered by Becker, p. 375, which is cited at the next sentence. – Quadell (talk) 13:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Link to Egyptian cotton (Gossypium barbadense).
Done. – Quadell (talk) 18:41, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
"Starting in 1921, significant irrigation projects around Koulikoro and later at Baguinéda-Camp and the Ségou Cercle began to bring water." cite please.
Done. – Quadell (talk) 13:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Links to Kingdom of Egypt and the United States in the same section.
Done. – Quadell (talk) 21:09, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
"The Office du Niger was founded in 1926 as the main organization facilitating planned, irrigated agricultural projects." Italics on "Office du Niger" and cite on this sentence and the following one.
I italicized, and added a source to the first sentence. The next one is covered by Becker p. 383-385, which is referenced at the next sentence. – Quadell (talk) 13:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
"Arabic language and Islamic law" - links to each (and Islam and Christianity!) please.
Done, and Traditional African religion as well. – Quadell (talk) 13:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Personal hatred of mine - please change "impacted" to "affected"! (Non-obligatory, of course)
I agree! Done. – Quadell (talk) 13:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
link to Tuareg (Tuareg people) please.
Done. – Quadell (talk) 13:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Link to Madagascar (in this case, the Malagasy Republic)
Done. – Quadell (talk) 13:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
Italics on République Soudainaise
Done. – Quadell (talk) 13:42, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
References
There's an error on one of the bibliography entries.
Fixed. – Quadell (talk) 18:41, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
General
Overlinking to Niger river, Dahomey and possibly others - once in lead/body only please!
Thanks, all overlinking is now fixed. – Quadell (talk) 13:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
I know its a colony, but if you could find any other language variations for "French Sudan" in any relevant local languages, that'd be good!
Thank you for adding Arabic! The most significant relevant indigenous language would be Bambara. I tried in vain to find out how to say "French Sudan" in Bambara. [1], [2], [3], etc. Ah well. – Quadell (talk) 13:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

The article as it exists now clearly shouldn't've passed GA. It claims to represent a continuous French territory while admitting such an entity didn't exist: it didn't just have different names; it also had different administrations, borders, &c. It's possible that the material could be reworked into a treatment of a generic "Upper Senegal" area but better to just divide the content among the actual entities that actually existed, instead of making it look like the 1920s French Soudan was anything like the 1890 version. This page should deal with the precursor to the modern state of Mali; the early administration of central French West Africa should have a separate page or be treated in a similar fashion with the French article.
Sources for expansion of period treatment include

"Upper Senegal and Niger" in the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica
Slavery and Colonial Rule in French West Africa, for more on the wink-wink-nudge-nudge continuation of slavery under other names and the involvement and importance of the French administrators' local lovers in the practice
 — LlywelynII 03:14, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand this objection. There was a continuous French territorial administration over an area that is approximate to the current country of Mali. This page is about the French colony which became Mali, whether the borders changed or they changed the name or governor. Just because New Spain changed borders and had different administrations doesn't mean we should break up that page into each different administration, does it? There was a French administrative category from the 1880s until 1960 which went by many names. Breaking it into a separate, small article for each name change seems to only serve the interests of stamp collectors--but not general readership. (Of course, those other pages were maintained for stamp collectors, but with a good foundational article to put the administrative names that only lasted a few months into a more general context.) But most importantly, RSs (including the Klein book you link to and which is already used extensively in the article), often refer to the 'space which had various colonial names' which mostly became Mali as "French Sudan/Soudan".  For the clearest and simplest example of an RS which treat "French Sudan" as a continuous entity from 1880 until 1960, see The Historical Dictionary of Mali.AbstractIllusions (talk) 04:55, 13 April 2014 (UTC)