# Talk:Caroline Harrison

This review is transcluded from Talk:Caroline Harrison/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: SusunW (talk · contribs) 13:25, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
I'll look at this one. Looking forward to learning about her. SusunW (talk) 13:25, 20 October 2022 (UTC)


### Early life
As the lede/info box are summaries, they repeat only information actually already cited in the article. I do not see her birth date given in the text. Please add.
 Not done Birth dates are listed as an exception at MOS:LEADNOTUNIQUE, and I don't think it's worth adding to the body. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:58, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Your call about putting it in the body, but if you don't you have to cite the date in the lede. My personal preference, which has nothing to do with anything is to put it in the body and not have citations in the lede.
Throughout the article, please cite specific page numbers for all book information, so that readers don't have to search the entire source. I've added {{rp|148}} for the first citation, but each multi-page book/article needs that template added.
 Done
Fix title in Schneider. Ref says Carline, rather than Caroline.
 Done
First sentence is a fairly close paraphrase, perhaps flip her mother and father in the sentence so you can omit "his wife", which makes her seem not a person in her own right. Mary was apparently also a teacher, which seems worth mentioning.pp 1, 4
 Done
I noted in her father's article it said he was an abolitionist. In that regard, I discovered that both parents were part of the Underground Railroad, which seems worth mentioning.p 159
 Done
Might also add context to insert that her great-grandfather founded the first Presbyterian Church in the US and established the college which would become Princeton.p 610
 Done
Ref #2 is paywalled. Perhaps change link to open access[1]? If you don't change it, you need to mark it as  {{subscription needed|via=[[De Gruyter]]}}
 Done and switched all reference links to archive.org when applicable Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:58, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Why is link to Ref #3 missing? You have given other links for Google books, so omission of this one seems odd and forces a reader to go hunting. Please insert link.[2]
 Done as above Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:58, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Among her family, she was known as "Carrie". Her father ensured she received a quality education in contrast to the minimal education that women typically received at the time. She attended two schools that had been founded by her father: a girls' school in Cincinnati and then the Oxford Female Institute is not supported by the citation. Source does call her Carrie (p 187) but doesn't indicate if that was in wide use or limited to family. It does confirm her father insisted on her being educated. (also p 187) Foster confirms that was within the family, need to add citation. This source says women's education was limited in the first half of the 19th century. You should add a citation either to the source I found, or another, and possibly link to [[Women's education in the United States|minimal education]]. Schneider p. 148 confirms both schools were founded by her father (but Moore says p. 4 that he was invited by the founders to become president, so maybe he was the founding president and not a founder?).
 Done and  Partly done I addressed the issue by removing the reference to women's versus men's education, letting her education stand in its own right. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:15, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Again, your call and won't effect whether it is approved as a GA, but burying women's experiences and historical limitations is skewing their stories. If you take it to FA, I would expect a the discussion of how unique it was for her to be educated to be part of the article.
Do we know the name of the girls' school he founded in Cincinnati?
 Not done No source I've seen has mentioned it by name. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:15, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for checking. I checked too, but couldn't find anything.
Might be good to mention that her father was dismissed from Oxford for his anti-slavery views in 1845 and the family moved to Cincinnati,(Moore, p 2) until 1849, when they moved back to Oxford (Moore, p 4) otherwise it appears she went there on her own.
 Done I restructured the first two paragraphs of this section a little bit so their moves were presented chronologically. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:15, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Foster has an open access link[3], which should be added, but mentions nothing about the secrecy of their relationship. That appears to be confirmed by Longo p 96, but he mentions nothing about sin or rides. Schneider confirms sin, buggy and sleigh rides on p 148. Fix citations please.
 Done
If they delayed marriage to finish their studies, seems weird there is no mention of when that was done. Hendricks p 187 says Benjamin finished in 1852 and she graduated in 1853, but Moore says her diploma was dated 22 June 1852 (p 4) and his graduation occurred on 24 June 1852. (p 5)
 Done reworded to avoid contradiction Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:58, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Perhaps it is worth mentioning that the school she taught at was in Carrollton, Kentucky and run by Bethania Bishop Bennet (also known as Bethania Crockett Bishop), who formerly founded a girls' school in Oxford and was a principal at the Oxford Female Institute?(Moore p 5),p 17,p 46
 Partly done I added the city, but I feel that information about how she met a relatively minor figure in her life may be excessively detailed. I did, however, add information from that page about her experience there. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 05:15, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Again, won't impact GA being approved but 1) it will give Crockett a link to another article when an article about her is written and 2) since she was the principal (in that time that meant head teacher) at OFI under Caroline's dad she probably did know her well. If I can find the books[4][5] about Crockett, I may write it myself, but so far no luck in finding them.
After their marriage, they stayed at the Harrison family home in North Bend, Ohio until Benjamin began a legal career in Indianapolis, probably needs clarification. Longo p 96 says Benjamin had to complete a 2-year apprenticeship. Hendricks says he finished that in 1854 (p 187) and then they moved to Indianapolis. Schneider confirms (p 148) that he was admitted to the bar in 1854 and then they moved to Indianapolis. (Year is imperative as article says house burned the "same year" but no year is ever mentioned in the paragraph.)
 Done
Both Watson (p 152) and Hendricks (p 188), state that Caroline returned to Ohio during her first pregnancy. Hendricks says the fire came after Russell's birth, but Moore says the fire happened first (p 8) and because of her need for medical care (confirmed by Watson p 152) she returned to Oxford to have the baby.
 Done Described the fire as happening in the same year as Russell's birth. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:08, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Last sentence, "Other organizations", you have already mentioned the orphans' asylum, so it should be removed, but the source also shows Indianapolis Benevolent Society, Ladies Patriotic Association, and the Ladies Sanitary Committee (in addition to the Home for Friendless Women).
 Done
More to follow, but it's a start. It is obvious from the history that when you started it was in definite need of attention and hardly had any citations. It isn't easy to rework an article in that shape and I appreciate your hard work  to improve the article.  SusunW (talk) 18:52, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

This section is all done except for citing the birth date somewhere in the article, unless you choose to respond to a couple of my queries. SusunW (talk) 13:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)


### Political life
I think you do not mean “exasperated”, irritated, but rather “exacerbated” to make worse.
 Done
Schneider p. 149 says during the war she became a leader with the Patriotic and Sanitary groups which worked to provide care for the wounded and Watson p. 153 says mending uniforms, and gathering food, clothing, and supplies for the soldiers.
 Done
I think you should probably re-arrange the paragraphs here. After explaining about the groups, I would move Caroline continued her education after the war, taking literature and art classes. Her pursuit of literature lead her to establish a literary club in the community to discuss the subject, while her pursuit of art became such that she began featuring her work in art exhibitions.[2] She also took a position on the board of lady managers of the Garfield Hospital. next and then move his continuing in politics to a new  ¶. Note, she was “led” not “lead”.
 Done
Instead of a literary club perhaps “the Impromptu Club, to read and discuss literature” (Hendricks p 188)( Schneider p. 150)
 Done
Benjamin continued to pursue politics after the war, and he would regularly consult Caroline for her opinions on political matters. I see that Schneider p. 150 talks about him going into politics, but not that she became an advisor to him. Watson p 154 confirms that, so you need to add a citation.
 Done
I would probably add something here about the house that they built and she supervised between 1874 and 1875, because this source (p. 265) says it gave her experience she later used in renovating the White House.
 Done
Perhaps add a citation to confirm he was elected to the Senate in 1880? (Hendricks, p 188)
 Done
Schneider p 150 says she was seriously ill in 1886. Do we know from what? Hendricks p. 188 said she had pneumonia, but gives no dates, and also that her hand was crushed by a carriage door but not when.
 Not done It's difficult to place these without further sources, which is why it's currently vague in the article. Schneider is the most detailed information I've found on this. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 08:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
It is no wonder she wanted to renovate the White House in its state. I imagine it would have been a major health concern for her. Thanks for checking.
More to come. SusunW (talk) 21:13, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

This section GTG. SusunW (talk) 13:32, 22 October 2022 (UTC)


### First Lady
Don't see that Both her daughter and her daughter-in-law helped with the responsibilities of the first lady. is supported by Scofield, but it is in Schneider p.151. Correct citation.
 Done
Johns Hopkins, per Longo page 98 the first one in the “nation”, i.e. it wasn’t the first to accept women globally, but the first one in the US. Please clarify that in the article.
 Done
This section GTG. SusunW (talk) 13:33, 22 October 2022 (UTC)


### Renovations and preservation
I think it would be more logical to start the section with why. One is five sentences in to the section before even arriving at the rodent infestation. Foster says the house was infested with termites and rats and had "serious structural damage" because of rot. Watson (p 154 ) says not only was it infested with pests but the structure and furnishings were all damaged or completely ruined and Schneider p 151 says Caroline thought the condition so bad it was likely to collapse. Scherber says the carpets were threadbare and the furnishings were shabby.
 Done Added several sentences to introduce the problem. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 07:46, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Excellent job! Much better.
I don’t see the bit about the architectural plans in Scofield, but it is confirmed in Schneider p 151
 Done
Perhaps mention the architect Frederick D. Owen, and redlink, as he appears to be notable.[6],[7],[8],[9],[10]
 Done
Hendricks p 190 says Congress appropriated $35,000. That's a big discrepancy with Scherber’s $60,000. I tried to find the actual appropriation bill, but had no luck. This confirms $35K, as does this newspaper clipping, but it clarifies that only $24K was allocated for repairs and the other $11K was for annual expenses. This thesis (p 9) says there is a discussion of it in William Seale's The White House: The History of An American Idea (Washington DC: White House Historical Association, 2005) at page 153, but I cannot find an accessible copy of that.
 Done For now I've removed any mention of the actual dollar amount. I suspect that we're not going to find a single definite answer if there are conflicting sources. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:58, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Won't impact the approval of the GA, but I don't really see that there is a discrepancy. Back before dirt when I was in uni, I was taught that when current sources contradict sources created at the time on details, the historic sources are used because of the possibility of misinterpretation by later scholars. In this case, the newspaper article is backed up by two RS. The only way that Scherber could arrive at 60K from what I see was to use the annual appropriation for upkeep of approximately 10K (it varied, but was about that amount, for example it was 13K for exterior painting in 1890 and 11K in 1891) over their tenure. So 10K x 4 + 24,000 = 64,000, i.e. +/- 60K.
Perhaps insert ({{Inflation|US|35,000|1890|2021|fmt=eq|cursign=$}}) 
 Not done no longer necessary per above Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:58, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Schneider p 151 says "they put in bathrooms" nothing about additional ones, nor anything about a conservatory; however, Foster notes there was only one bathroom, and a renovation of the conservatory. Please add citation to Foster.
 Done I reorganized this paragraph. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 07:46, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
I don't really get a sense from reading the description in the article of how extensive the renovation was. Hendricks p 190 says "She was the first First Lady to refurbish the White House from cellar to attic" The newspaper article above gives details on the stylistic changes she made, as do both the thesis and this, which discuss the actual interior changes made by Harrison and Edgar Yergason. Foster points out that the kitchens were totally renovated, having been neglected for forty years. Schneider p 151 says they replaced the carpets, drapes, and reupholstered, which is confirmed by the newspaper article. (Note, I think the article would benefit from "beefing up" this section a bit. It isn't required for a GA, but if you wanted to nominate it for FA, I would expect it to be there since it is one of her major accomplishments as first lady.)
 Done per above. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 07:46, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Schneider p 151 confirms the Christmas tree, but mentions nothing about orchids. Hendricks p 191 confirms introduction of orchids. Please add citation.
 Done
After continual need of refurnishing cited to Scherber, I think you need to add that she inventoried the contents of each room in the White House, cataloging art, decorations, and furnishings and recording their provenance for posterity.(Henderson  p 190)(Schneider p 151) That seems like a massive undertaking and important to the history of the country and her tenure in the White House.
 Partly done I added a mention, but I think another source might be necessary. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 07:46, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
It's better. What I see is "inventory of the furniture at the executive mansion, complete with a history of each piece" (Schneider 151) "She conducted the inventory of every room and had many historic objects preserved" (Watson 154; he also lists that as important to her legacy (his title of the section) on p 156) "She went through White House closets, attic, and basement to uncover the cast off chinaware of past presidential administrations. She researched them and identified the various First Ladies who used them…" (Hendricks p 190) "Caroline had the entire contents of the White House inventoried…anxious that pieces which have historic value or connection with presidential families of the past shall be preserved". (Scherber, who also specifically mentions hiring a curator to preserve the art.) Which to me indicates the inventory was very in-depth. Won't impact approval of the GA if you don't want to add more.


### Illness and death
Not sure of the accuracy of It is believed that she died as a result of an illness, such as typhoid fever or influenza, affecting her while she suffered from tuberculosis. Hendricks p 192, says death was "attributed to tuberculosis" and complications of "typhoid and/or influenza", not the other way around.
 Done
perhaps insert and burial at Crown Hill Cemetery per Hendricks p 192
 Done
This section GTG. SusunW (talk) 14:20, 22 October 2022 (UTC)


### Legacy
Hendricks p 186 confirms her legacy for renovations, noting that hers was the first major renovation and that she established separate offices and residential quarters, modernizing the building. Watkins p 156 says hers was "one of the most comprehensive and important restorations of the building". Watson also confirms on 155 that her plans formed the foundation for what eventually became the East and West wings. Both Watkins p 156 and Hendricks p186 confirm the importance of her inventory and preservation of White House artifacts.
 Done Used these pages to summarize her legacy. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 08:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
This section GTG. SusunW (talk) 14:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)


### Photos and refs
Please insert alt text for each image. Not the same as a caption. It should be a description of the image for those who are unable to see it. I've added alt text for the infobox image as an example.
 Done
Official portrait, by whom and when was it painted?
 Done
Please standardize isbn formatting. This tool is helpful, although you may have to convert to 10 and then back to 13.
 Not done I'm not terribly familiar with ISBNs. Is there something specific I need to do for it to be considered a valid reference? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:58, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
It's not the validity of the reference that is the problem, but inconsistency in the citation. Each section of an ISBN number means something, i.e. language, publisher, book title, etc. Some you have cited with the correct sectioning and others as an unbroken string of numbers. There may be a gadget that makes them formatted consistently, but I don't know of one and am not very technical. I just use that tool, so I don't have to manually look up the publishing codes, etc.
Not sure if you have the gadget installed that verifies duplicate links, but I get hits on White House and Frances Cleveland. Please fix.
 Done


### Checklist
That's it from me. Very much enjoyed learning about her and I applaud your efforts to improve the article. Please ping me when you are ready for me to review the answers, as I tend to get really busy. SusunW (talk) 19:15, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

SusunW Thank you for the thorough review! I've looked at each of your notes and made the applicable changes where I could. I've replied to a few of them with notes of my own. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 08:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Thebiguglyalien Thank you for your thorough replies. We're almost there, just a few minor things and possibly some discussion. It has been a pleasure working with you. SusunW (talk) 14:35, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
I formatted the ISBNs and added the date of birth to the body, which I think covers the essentials. I also added the corrected dollar amount with an associated inflation value. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:23, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Great. Thank you so much for working on her. Congrats on the GA. It'll take me a bit to do all the approval stuff, because wp.technology is hard for me, but I'm on it. SusunW (talk) 17:47, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

I was asked to look over this article prior to FAC, so here are some comments. I will copy-edit as I go in the interests of efficiency, but please feel to question any changes I make, I am happy to discuss them. Vanamonde (Talk) 23:58, 7 November 2022 (UTC)


### Sources
The article cites this 2005 biography, which appears to be an entire book about the subject. However, it's cited only once. The article isn't very long: one would expect that it could be fleshed out with material from this biography, and this is likely necessary to meet the "comprehensive" criterion, unless there's some reason this source should be discounted.
I'm not sure about the Indiana History blog as a source. Otherwise, sources look decent.


### Prose
"Harrison pursued education throughout her life" This sounds like she was taking classes her whole life, which I assume isn't the intended meaning.
"she was a hostess as the campaign was carried out in their home" worth rephrasing, as this isn't literally true: I assume it was an important center of organizing.
"Her father left Miami University following a dispute" do we know when? Without the year, this is jarring.
"While in college, " but we've not been told she's gone to college yet.
"buggy" has many meanings, can a link be found?
"one of her father's students at Farmer's College" we haven't been told that her father taught at Farmer's college, so this is an odd introduction.
"When visiting her husband at camp" what camp?
The first paragraph of "political life" is mostly about other things, and arguably the first lady section is also political, so this section doesn't seem very logical to me.
"caused one major political controversy" it isn't obvious why this is controversial; are first ladies not allowed large gifts?
"her husband was involved with her niece Mary Scott Dimmick." a bit of a euphemism here; involved how?
"In 1896, Benjamin married his late wife's niece Mary Scott Dimmick." This is a) somewhat redundant, and b) if this was the case, then was it true they were having an affair earlier, of which Caroline was suspicious? Or were her suspicions unfounded?
"In her role as White House hostess, she is described as unsuccessful, being unable to maintain good relations with Washington society" The legacy section is the first time this possibility is mentioned; reading the rest of the article, I didn't get the impression she had done anything less than normal for a first lady. If detail is available, fleshing this out earlier would be good.
Having read through the article in its entirety, I believe it is in good shape, but not quite at an FAC standard. There's a source that appears underutilized; some gaps in the information, which I've mentioned above; and some places where the prose could be tightened. I've done some copy-editing, but another round may be needed after any expansions are done. Regards, Vanamonde (Talk) 23:58, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

@Thebiguglyalien: Wanted to make sure you had seen this. Vanamonde (Talk) 00:54, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
Vanamonde93 Yes, and I've been working on fixing some of these points. I'm still working on this in theory, but it turns out it's quite difficult to get access to a full length biography of Caroline Harrison, even with Google Books, Wikipedia Library, etc. But anyway, thank you again for taking the time to look through the article. In addition to hopefully continuing on this one, I'm also taking what I've learned here to improve the other first lady articles. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:08, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
No problem, hope the feedback's useful. Vanamonde (Talk) 01:15, 14 November 2022 (UTC)