# Talk:Dominant white

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to Gene dominant white of horse, the dominant white gene exists in other species and this article only deals with the horse's gene. Has been translated into wikipedia in Spanish. --Jcfidy (talk) 09:28, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Need to check genetics on this horse:  http://www.woodbineentertainment.com/Woodbine/RaceTrackNewsPage.aspx?NewsId=721ae9ef-1873-408d-b5ab-f66476687292

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So since a lot of the W-n alleles actually produce white spotting, and not always completely white horses, I think it might be better to name this article Dominant white-spotting, KIT white-spotting mutations, or something similar. Also sabino-1 is a different allele of the same gene (KIT) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1628480, https://www.centerforanimalgenetics.com/services/horse-genetic-testing/phenotype-testing-for-horses/sabino-1/), but even KIT alleles with sabino-like phenotypes have been named W-something, rather than Sabino-2. A lot of places still refer to it as dominant white, though, so I dunno. Something to consider, at least. Iamnotabunny (talk) 21:17, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

The title reflects the gene (W).  Some alleles produce spotting, others do not.  I would agree we need to reconcile the sabino horse content with this one, as some splash and W genes now appear to produce what were once thought of as sabino patterns.  Montanabw(talk) 03:12, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Ok, then I'll edit the article to be more consistently about W. Right now it's a little inconsistent, with some information (eg, "Dominant White is a rare condition") from back when there was only W1-4, which actually were best described as Dominant White. Iamnotabunny (talk) 11:27, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
Hey, I still think we should move the page. This... I can't really say gene... allelic series definitely used to be called dominant white, but now it's usually called white spotting. I was going through the articles for unrelated reasons, and I see that up until 2009 they all call it dominant white[1][2], but in 2011 they carefully avoid calling the group anything more specific than "dominant KIT mutations",[3] and after that they all use the term "white spotting" (one uses 'dominant white' but in quotes and only once).[4][5][6] (edit: I done goofed, the most recent "Novel KIT variants for dominant white in the Australian horse population" has dominant white right in the title. But still, there's a lot of scientists calling it white spotting.) So 'dominant white' hasn't officially been renamed or gone away or anything, but usage of it has just disappeared. I've also noticed this in a lot of random internet pages about horse colors, where the older ones say "dominant white" and the newer ones say "white spotting".
I'm also not really sure what relation this article should have to sabino. I see Countercanter has already commented about that, but now that there's alleles like W20 that have more in common with sabino than with the traditional dominant white, pretty much the only difference between them is their names. From a genetics point of view I really think it would make sense to merge the two articles. My initial reaction was that they should stay separate, but I tried to come up with a good reason for that and couldn't. Anyway, I think at the very least we should move "Dominant White" to "White Spotting", and then decide whether a merge would make sense. Iamnotabunny (talk) 23:04, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Can the title get changed to be equine specific? Dominant white is found in other species such as dogs, cats, and cattle (among others). Miscellaneous edits (talk) 19:10, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

This white mare [7] has non-white parents. She has produced three white foals out of four. I don't know if any genetic studies have been done on her. Tigerboy1966  07:02, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Hey @Iamnotabunny:, I’m wondering whether it would be a good idea to create a “photo chart” for the photos of the different W mutations, kind of like what we have for the patterns at leopard complex.  We wouldn’t have photos of all alleleic representatives, but it might make the article look cleaner… your thoughts? Montanabw(talk) 17:49, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@Montanabw: I think that'd be a good idea if we can gather a couple more pictures. Iamnotabunny (talk) 20:50, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
We can probably pull more off of the images broken out here, if we can id the alleles:File:DominantWhiteHorses.jpg There are other breeds pictured in there also, I think all of those are public domain. Montanabw(talk) 22:26, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
Maybe to help us gather images and get a start, I’ll put a draft of the chart here and we can just work on it. Montanabw(talk) 00:00, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
Incidentally, this might be a good additional source: https://generatio.de/sites/default/files/2021-04/W%20variants%20with%20associated%20breeds.pdf  and https://generatio.de/en/guidance/lexicon/white-spotting-horse
@Iamnotabunny:, I think I’m getting these right,  but maybe double  check sources and verify?  Any we can’t verify we can toss. Montanabw(talk) 00:50, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

@Montanabw: Those images are all correct. I'm seeing lots of the same types of information. Maybe we could do something like:

(just a rough outline, but we'd probably want to take out prose from the longer boxes and double check that the refs are placed right) I know I've seen creative commons images of some of these, just have to hunt them down. Iamnotabunny (talk) 17:56, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

@Montanabw: Oh, and the generatio website is the moved version of the Animal Genetics one, so all of our Animal Genetics sources are probably somewhere there now. Iamnotabunny (talk) 18:00, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
I like keeping the longer prose boxes because we have to explain this stuff SOMEWHERE and reference it.  However, I like having the photos first and having the  breeds and such in new columns.  I think because the founder stuff is ambiguous in some cases (**cough ** W20), it maybe should stay in the narrative, though I suppose we could add a "year identified" column. Let's keep fiddling with this. Montanabw(talk) 03:14, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
@Iamnotabunny: I tweaked "my" chart to incorporate some of the stuff in "your" chart.  For me, layout is important (particularly for mobile devices) and so I think we should work to not have long narrow columns and then huge blank spaces in others... hence my layout decisions to keep only stuff short for all alleles in separate colums and keep anything lengthy in the narrative. Montanabw(talk) 04:03, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
Montanabw, I like 'your' updated chart. I think it's better than what we've got now. I think a more chart-like version (less prose, more columns) could at some point be even better for helping people find information quickly, but unfortuntely I just don't have the time to make that now.
Also, I seem to have misrememered about the pictures. I had found creative commons splashed white pictures, not dominant white/sabino unfortunately. For the columns without pictures, we could maybe put in a super short description (e.g. "white", "sabino") to make it look better. Iamnotabunny (talk) 19:16, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
I really like the chart ideas. My preference is the second table, but I think the lethality column should be retained. I also want to mention that the founders of a lot of variants have been poorly cited, and I think they should be removed if a reliable citation is not available. Or maybe noted in some way if that is the case? Miscellaneous edits (talk) 18:45, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

I'd like to make the suggestion that the relevant publication is cited or OMIA is cited when referring to all the dominant white variants. For example, Etalon and Generatio were cited for the number of known dominant white variants, but these are not always complete sources and typically only include variants that they test for and may fail to include all known variants. I changed the citation to OMIA, as it is more a comprehensive resource. I'd like to hear what others think about this and how we can make the citations better across the page. I'm happy to do a bit of an overhaul, but don't want to step on any toes. Miscellaneous edits (talk) 18:45, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
OMIA has excellent resources and can certainly supplement other sources where it can be cited to a specific entry by URL or where it is the primary source of newly-added material (noted we now have W34). However, it is rather challenging to search (example [8] ) and so where there are sources pinpointing a specific allele, those are preferable. While I am aware that commercial lab cites have limitations, sometimes they also contain useful information  Montanabw(talk) 18:37, 7 October 2022 (UTC)