# Talk:Cecelia Hall (mezzo-soprano)

This article relies too heavily on artist bios on the websites of orchestra and opera companies. These bios are typically written by the artist themselves, or by their personal paid PR agent and talent management group. They are entirely not independent and should not be used to verify content on wikipedia per policy at WP:VERIFIABILITY. Additionally, it's not clear to me that Seen and Heard International is a reputable website with appropriate editorial controls. I'm sure this production had reviews in more traditional media like local newspapers which would be far preferable over the use of this website. Lastly, it would be preferable not to use the Juilliard Journal if possible, as school newspapers covering students/alumni is not ideal under sourcing guidelines. I don't think there is a serious notability problem here because there is likely to be coverage of this artist in reviews in better publications. Please put the work in and find better sources for this same content.4meter4 (talk) 02:17, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

The information (not bio) from opera houses is only used to support that she performed these roles at these houses at certain times. There is nothing promotional in that information. Also, German opera houses are non-profit cultural organizations, like museums. Would you discredit information from a museum about a piece of art is displays. I will look for more reviews in addition, but not today, - RL. I am not sure about finding something better than the Juillard journal because that was rather long ago. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:16, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
A few points to consider Gerda Arendt
1. Museums are cultural institutions that curate and preserve art and other artifacts deemed of cultural or historical significance, and which do research on those artworks or artifacts. They are in essence more akin to a library or university than an opera house, theatre, or art gallery. They do not typically commission new works of art and are not involved in the making of art typically. Further, not all museums have great editorial controls in publications. In general, we would consider museum publications WP:SELFPUBLISHED (unless done with an independent academic publisher) that could be used under certain circumstances  (depending on the author, and editorial practices of the institution.)  The rare museums that make original art and write on that art would be considered WP:PRIMARY SOURCES on those works, and those sources that should be used sparingly per WP:Verifiability.
2. Opera houses and theaters, even government supported ones, are essentially institutions in the business of making theatrical productions. These are living art forms and the people making them lack independence from the work they are doing. In other words, all theatre, orchestra, opera company websites are WP:PRIMARY SOURCES. They should therefore not be used whenever possible per WP:No Original Research. That's not to say they can't be used at all, but caution is needed.
3. I think the  Juillard Journal is not ideal, because it is an institution writing on itself and those connected to it. It's an independence issue. A better source is preferable, but it's not necessary to remove the source if a substitute cannot be found.
4. The general issue here Gerda is not that any one of these sources can't be used on its own in a limited way but the fact that so many of the sources are WP:PRIMARY WP:SELFPUBLISHED sources, and that there are very few independent secondary sources used; none of which address the subject "directly and in detail". This is a blatant fail to follow WP:PSTS policy which states "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Per WP:No original research and WP:SIGCOV we should not be building articles predominantly from these type of materials. This is an issue of source balance, and more broadly following the spirit of how we go about article construction under wikipedia's general notability guidelines for what makes a topic encyclopedic.
I hope this is helpful, and I know that this particular topic should be researchable using better sources. You can do it. Best.4meter4 (talk) 17:24, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
It's helpful. I just return from the opera. It is a cultural institution. I have company, so more tomorrow. I have five reviews that I found already in my sandbox. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:04, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Why does the article title include '(mezzo-soprano)' next to her name? It seems unnecessary, as there appears to be no other individual named Cecelia Hall with whom she could be confused. Gor1995 𝄞 14:43, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Cecelia Hall --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:45, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
Oops, totally missed that, thanks! :)  -- Gor1995 𝄞 15:40, 5 March 2024 (UTC)