# Talk:Bovet Fleurier

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bovet Fleurier/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.


### Protonk comments
Images Image copyright and fair use rationales check out.  Editors may want to replace the narrative summaries with templates for PD and FU attribution, but I don't see a problem so long as proper rationale is provided.
Note.  I read the talk page discussion of the Bovet watch ad PD claim.  The questions raised there are legitimate, but the only real questions (for me) is whether or not the watch ad was produced prior to 1978 and if a copyright claim was filed explicitly. Protonk (talk) 17:08, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
POV The lead could probably be refactored to be more neutral.  Statements like "It currently produces high-end artistic watches with a style that references its history, and is known for its high-quality enameling, engraving, and its eight-day tourbillon." strike me as effusive praise.  This: "The original Bovet watches are also famous for being one of the first watches to emphasize the beauty of the movements with its skeletonized views and highly decorative movements." while also largely subjective seems to be a claim that might be supported by a source.  I'm not sure that I see one in the body text that supports this precise claim, though.
History I'm a little confused as I read through the history section.  The narrative seems to move from biographical to corporate with little notice.  My suggestions:
Break up the history section into an early biography of Bovet and Vaucher, a section on the chinese market, and a section for the post 1864 company history.  This will probably clear up a great deal of the trouble.
Eliminate some of the speculative claims about the watchmaker and china.  These are not original research, as most of the claims appear in the sources, but they don't help the flow of the section.
Wording This history section (and the lead) contain a great deal of "it is said" "it is guessed" and so forth.  Eliminate these statements and see if the resulting sentence (e.g. "It is guessed that The establishment of Bovet in London was because of the ease of shipping the watches to China on frequent English ships.") and see if the sources support that claim.
Watches section This also has POV problems.  The source for this claim is purely promotional and should not be used in this fashion in an encyclopedia.  suggestions:
Stick strictly to facts.
Ensure that this section provides some clue of how the company is important in a larger context.  Why is the style of watch unique?  How are the movements unique?
References Claims in this article are scrupulously cited.  Some of the references cited are apparently self published websites or catalogues, but this isn't too troubling to me as few of the claims made in this article are extremely contentious.  The article does, however, rely heavily on one self published website: ten inlince citations resolve to [1].
Google books
Published scholarly paper
Overall This is a very informative article on an interesting subject.  Context is provided and sources appear (for the ones I checked) to verify the text.  The Manual of Style is followed for the most part, with some minor exceptions not listed above.  The article needs to be clarified, reworded and reordered but it certainly has potential to be a good article.  In my opinion, if a substantial portion of the improvements I suggested above get made, this should sail through. Protonk (talk) 15:29, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Suggested changes have been implemented, as far as they are understood.  Pictures have been added as illustrations.  The citations linked through Google mention the company or its watches by name only, and provide no substantive information.  The "Arts of Asia" article looks very useful, but it may take a few months before I am able to view it.  It appears that all of your suggestions have been addressed.  I will re-nominate.  Zoticogrillo (talk) 03:28, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your many useful and detailed suggestions.  In addition, I have the following responses:
Images - Research on source of the ad is ongoing.  I have the original photo which includes part of the rest of the publication, which includes article excerpts relating progress of the war in Europe (WWII).
POV - The descriptive language is arguably appropriate in this context.  The watches produced by this company range in price from USD $30,000 to 1.8 million.  This same language is found in other articles describing high quality products such as Ferrari.  The language is merely descriptive, as these watches are individually hand crafted (or hand painted, engraved, etc.) by artists.  The whole paragraph is supported by the source near the end of the paragraph.  It would have been too repetitive to add that same footnote after every single clause.
Watches section - Not sure to which citation you are pointing... footnote 33?  Those citations support the statement and they are well known associations entirely independent of Bovet.
References - There is nothing "prima facie" wrong with a self-published website.  A self-published cite should not be a problem.  Its claims are generally supported by other citations (or do not contradict such), and the website has general credibility and evidence of honest research.  The author has no connect whatsoever to editing this article, and it is an independent source.  I have contacted the individuals listed as supporting contributors.  They are responsive to inquiries and are collector/experts on European watches. Zoticogrillo (talk) 00:15, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Some responses
POV.  I gather that the company made some fantastic watches.  However we can reserve that judgment for sources.  Some of the stuff (exp the one sentence in the lead) isn't necessary.  The article can speak to facts that show the craftsmanship of the watches, but we should steer clear of providing that judgment ourselves.
Images: Yeah, it really was a minor quibble, those are OK in my books.
References.  I didn't say there was anything wrong with using a self published website.  My concern was that most of the article is supported by this one source.  If less than 1/2 of 1% of wikipedia's articles are good articles, we should probably look for some breadth.
Citation 33: Sorry.  I thought I was clear.  That citation is purely promotional.  regardless of the independence of the source the nature of the work can come into question.  It isn't a huge deal but the article does present a slight POV slant and that cite stuck out at me.
I'm going to change the "on hold" tag to "second opinion" because I would hate for this to be stuck here because I'm being too harsh.  Protonk (talk) 04:54, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
It is truly a challenge to find any information on this watch maker.  I have been to all the libraries and have done thorough research.  The only more that could be done would be research at the horological libraries in London or Geneva.  I agree with you about citation(s) 33, but even though the articles in those two cites do have a promotional tone, they conform to wiki standards of verifiability, and are credible sources.  I don't know if you are being too harsh, but I do believe that the article is better as it is than with no cites at all.  I will implement your recommended changes when I can, or even better some other contributing editor will. Zoticogrillo (talk) 18:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
did you check out the two links I posted above?  there are a few web-available books on the subject and that scholarly article should be available at a university library.  If you can't get access to one, let me know and I'll see if I can't email you a copy. Protonk (talk) 22:13, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, thank you for the links.  I don't know why I didn't think of checking google books.  Unfortunately, the content does not have any useful information, or it is the same information found in other books already cited.  I am waiting for a free day to go to the library.  Thank you for your offer to help.  If you happen across it before I am able to implement its content, feel free to send it. Zoticogrillo (talk) 17:01, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)
It is reasonably well written.
a (prose):  b (MoS): 
Needs work.  e.g. "When the company began to produce watches again in the 1990's it was a very unique style of watch which incorporated various elements of the pocket watch form in its construction, such as at the lugs, and won awards after its introduction in 1997." is both a run-on sentence and awkward--that's just one example. Also, Citations do not follow MoS for dates.
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR): 
Lots of unreliable sources, non-independent sources, and websites of questionable reliability. Good that there are a lot of references, but bad that they are repeated and non-templated.  See WP:CITET and use  <ref name=>  tags to collapse them for ease of readability.  Also, looks like youhave a few books without ISBNs included.
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects):  b (focused): 

It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias: 

It is stable.
No edit wars etc.: 

It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions): 

Overall:
Pass/Fail: 

ON HOLD for a week.  Hopefully that gives you a good list of additional things to work on. Jclemens (talk) 03:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok.  This process doesn't help the article if it drags on with little change.  since only some of my comments and few of the second opinion reviewer comments have been addressed (and it has been 10 days since the second opinion), I'm not going to promote this article.  Fix the issues outlined by the two reviewers and this article will do well at GAN. Protonk (talk) 03:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

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