# Talk:Gjergj Thopia

Shouldn't the surname be used after the first mention in accordance with MOS:SURNAME? Urchincrawler (talk) 11:29, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Gjergj Thopia/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Nominator: Arberian2444 (talk · contribs) 20:06, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Reviewer: Borsoka (talk · contribs) 13:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it well written?
A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct: 

B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation: 

Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?
A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline: 

B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose): 

C. It contains no original research: 

D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism: 

Is it broad in its coverage?
A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic: 

B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style): 

Is it neutral?
It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each: 

Is it stable?
It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute: 

Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content: 

B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions: 

Overall:
Pass or Fail: 

Image review

File:Mbishkrimi prej mermeri i kishës së Shën Gjon Vladimirit.png: I doubt it is properly licenced; the source should be more specific (page?)
File:Medieval Durrës.jpg: I doubt it is properly licenced.
Could you add a map? Borsoka (talk) 13:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Source review

Why do you think the quotes are necessary in the references?
Why do you think Lamprecht (1877) is still a reliable source?
Add a translation for the title of Lamprecht (1877) and Veselinović&Ljušić (2002) by using the "|trans-title=" parameter, and also add the languages by using the "|lang=" parameter.
I would delete or radically shorten the lengthy quote.
With the sole possible exception mentioned above, academic sources are cited. Borsoka (talk) 13:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Hello! I just wanna first thank you for reviewing my article!  I have added a translation for the title and radically shortened the lengthy quote.
I have also expanded the lead.
As for the quotes in the references I feel that it is necessary because its intended to provide the direct textual evidence from that source instead of just listing a page number for someone to find it themselves so they can see where I got this information from. I've done this on my previous article Durrës Expedition that is currently a Good article.
For the Lamprecht source I feel that he is a primary source because it provides more in-depth information about Gjergj Thopia, such as the month of his death and other detailed aspects of his life, which are not covered in other current sources. But I can remove him if that's not a good enough explanation.
For the "File:Mbishkrimi prej mermeri i kishës së Shën Gjon Vladimirit.png"- Im confused on what the source should be and specific?
For the "File:Medieval Durrës.jpg:" I can remove that and I dont think their is any maps about Gjergj Thopia's domains but their is of when his father was in power? Thank you again!Arberian2444 (talk) 18:12, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for your quick actions. No, do not delete Lamprecht - I just needed some information about its relevance. "File:Mbishkrimi prej mermeri i kishës së Shën Gjon Vladimirit.png": the file at Commons refers to a lengthy study as its source, I think the page from the study that contains the picture should be mentioned in the "Source" section of the Commons file. You can raise questions about copyright issues at Wikipedia talk:Copyrights - my concern is that I am not convinced that the photographer made the model. Borsoka (talk) 18:25, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Yes no problem! I added the page number on the source section of the Commons file and I also found a map that depicted the Principality of Albania between 1385-1392. Thanks again!Arberian2444 (talk) 18:32, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Comments

The lead need to be expanded with at least three or four sentences. Borsoka (talk) 13:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Prince Gjergj... Delete the title.
All terms should only be once linked in the main text.
Firstborn son?
Introduce the medieval Principality of Albania and the Thopia family with a short sentence.
Introduce Voislava Balsha and her family with a short sentence.
...as Prince of Albania... Delete.
Why are references 6 and 7 necessary?
Reference 5 mentions that Gjergj was "sickly".
This could be mentioned as one of the few information we know of him before his ascension.
..., although he ultimately had to settle for the latter title due to most of his father’s possessions falling under Ottoman control. This is quite out of context here, for the Ottoman conquest is mentioned in a following section.
Introduce Theodora and her family with a short sentence.
A 1363 document describes a crown adorned with pearls and precious stones, potentially linked to the Thopia family. Later records from 1393, 1399, and 1400 specifically mention a gold crown and four pairs of pearl earrings as possessions of Gjergj Thopia's wife. I would delete it.
... reignited Rephrase to avoid close paraphrasing.
...proud of his Anjou heritage... Some more information about his Anjou ancestry? Furthermore Ladislaus was the one of Capetian Anjou ancestry, Louis was member of the Valois Anjou dynasty.
...and received support from Pope Clement VII... The cited source does not verify the statement.
Thopia, proud of his Anjou heritage, aligned himself with Louis and received support from Pope Clement VII, who had become the first antipope during the Western Schism. Rephrase to avoid close paraphrasing. I would avoid the term "antipope".
Introduce Pope Boniface IX as the Roman pope.
However, Pope Boniface IX opposed Thopia’s ties with Antipope Clement, preferring Gjergj II Balsha to govern Durrës instead of Gjergj Thopia. Rephrase to avoid close paraphrasing.
Despite this, it was Venice’s political moves in 1392 that marked a crucial turning point for Gjergj Thopia’s and Gjergj II Balsha's holdings. Rephrase to avoid close paraphrasing. Borsoka (talk) 01:23, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
Hello again! Ive mostly fixed all of these but their are a few I'm curious and confused about.
For this one "Reference 5 mentions that Gjergj was "sickly"." Should I include in the text that he was sickly?
For this one "..., although he ultimately had to settle for the latter title due to most of his father’s possessions falling under Ottoman control. This is quite out of context here, for the Ottoman conquest is mentioned in a following section." I thought it would be in context because before Gjergj even came to power his father and the ottomans fought in the Battle of Savra against the balsha family. Which afterwards it led to the lands going under as ottoman vassals. I wasn't sure if I should include that bit to fix that?
For this one "A 1363 document describes a crown adorned with pearls and precious stones, potentially linked to the Thopia family. Later records from 1393, 1399, and 1400 specifically mention a gold crown and four pairs of pearl earrings as possessions of Gjergj Thopia's wife. I would delete it." Would I be able to keep this but just reword it majorly or possibly move it somewhere else?
Then finally for this one " Furthermore Ladislaus was the one of Capetian Anjou ancestry, Louis was member of the Valois Anjou dynasty" Should I include that information for those two?
Thank you again! Arberian2444 (talk) 02:00, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
Please go through sections 2-4 to make sure that all instances of close paraphrasing are fixed. Ping me if you are ready. Borsoka (talk) 09:31, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
@Borsoka: Ok I think I fixed all instances of close paraphrasing. Arberian2444 (talk) 17:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
However, it was the strategic actions of the Republic of Venice in 1392 that significantly altered the balance of power for both claimants to Durrës. I would delete it, because the whole story is narrated in the next section.
Section "Life and Reign": I understand Gjergj Thopia kept Durrës even after Boniface IX rejected his claim. If this is the case, this should be clarified in the text.
Introduce the Battle of Kosovo.
The presence of neighboring Albanian tribes and Ottoman-aligned chieftains seeking control of Durrës only added to the political instability during Gjergj’s rule. Source?
Radically (at least by 25%) shorten section "Venetian Relations and the Ottoman Threat". When shortening the text, please also take into account that our readers have almost no knowledge of late medieval Albanian history. Borsoka (talk) 02:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
@Borsoka: Ok! I have fixed all these I decided to just remove the speech of the "Venetian Relations and the Ottoman Threat" section to shorten it. Arberian2444 (talk) 04:20, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Is their anything else I should do? Arberian2444 (talk) 02:55, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
..., with specific objectives in mind I would either delete or explain it.
The speakers... Could you name at least some of them?
...the castle... I assume this is the castle of Durres. Could you clarify it?
They highlighted their financial investments and military vigilance,... Repetition. I would delete it.
...without direct military conflict I do not understand. I am not sure it is verified. Borsoka (talk) 04:58, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
@Borsoka: Ok! I have fixed all of these except for "The speakers" it doesn't really mention a specific person? Thanks again! Arberian2444 (talk) 06:12, 1 January 2025 (UTC)
In August 1392, the Venetian Council received Gjergj Thopia's demands following Venice's takeover of Durrës.[30] Gjergj's ambassadors asked for ratification of existing pacts with Saraceno Dandolo, assistance in regaining control of additional lands and castles, changes to the currency, a financial loan, and measures to ensure the safe return of Albanians from the countryside who were under Turkish rule. Rephrase the two sentences: the council received the ambassadors, not the demands. Who should regain control of additional lands and castles? What are these lands and castles? What changes to currency are mentioned? Does the text refer to Albanian refugees or to those who regularly visited both Ottoman territory and Durres?
...reassurances that future Venetian Captains would follow suit. Do you also refer to changes to currency and financial loans? Be more specific.
Introduce and link Krujë. This town is not mentioned in previous sentences.
...one year after Gjergj Thopia's embassy to Venice,... Delete.
...an ambassador from Durrës arrived... To where?
Who are the Maritime Experts?
...his requests... His?
Introduce Marco Morosini, Benedetto Cappello and Antonio Contarini.
...Thopia's sale of properties and people... This issue is not mentioned previously. People?
...leading to forced migrations. From and to where?
The decision was made after several rounds of voting, indicating some internal divisions within the council. Delete.
Out of the ten requests, one included the return of precious items belonging to Gjergj Thopia, which were held by the commune, likely made on behalf of his sister, Voisava. I am not sure I understand.
Delete the quotes from the references because they present copyvio. We should not replicate large parts of copyrighted material. Borsoka (talk) 03:40, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
...the governor, Zorzi,... Governor of what? Full name and a link?
@Borsoka: Ok! I have fixed most of these except for "ambassador from Durrës arrived" It doesn't specifically say who it was in the text here. Then for "Thopia's sale of properties and people... This issue is not mentioned previously. People?" I tried to introduce it already here "However, one request sparked disagreement among the Experts, especially regarding the impact of Gjergj's past decisions on Durrës" So I'm not sure what else to do for that. Then for the "Out of the ten requests, one included the return of precious items belonging to Gjergj Thopia, which were held by the commune, likely made on behalf of his sister, Voisava. I am not sure I understand." Basically Gjergj's sister and her husband went to venice and had several petitions for them they were mostly concerning her husbands problems with venice but one of the petitions was for venice to return gjergjs belongings back to her cause venice took them after his death. Then Finally for "Delete the quotes from the references because they present copyvio. We should not replicate large parts of copyrighted material." So should I just delete all quotes from the page for all the sources? Thanks again! Arberian2444 (talk) 17:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
Yes, all quotes should be deleted from the references. They may represent copyvio. As I have become deeply involved in the article's text, I need to seek a second opinion before deciding. 01:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

@Borsoka: Ok! So should I go delete them or wait for a second opinion? Im a little confused sorry. Thanks again! Arberian2444 (talk) 17:55, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Borsoka you mentioned needing a second opinion here, I'd like to help but was wondering if you could give me some guidance regarding what exactly you need a second opinion on! IntentionallyDense (Contribs) 02:03, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
Thank you for your offer. I think the fulfilment of criteria GA 1a, 3a and 3b is to be determined. Borsoka (talk) 02:35, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
I'll leave my feedback here, apologies if I mention something that has already been talked about:
He succeeded his father following his death in January 1388, although he was reportedly in poor health at the time unclear if this is regarding him or his father.
Gjergj styled himself Princeps Albaniae (Prince of Albania) and Lord of Durrës. This is more of a reflection of my lack of knowledge in this area but what does "style himself" mean.
The quotes in the sources are excessive although you've mentioned this.
Just based on one read through, I'd say it passes 3b for sure. I didn't think there was any uneeded detail. Regarding 1a, I think theres some clarification possibly needed around the first 2 points I mentioned however they are not major issues. In regards to 3a, based on my quick read, it does address the main points I'd expect in a biography. However I will note that I didn't look at any of the sources and often looking at the sources is when I'd find the most issues with 3a. Hopefully this helps. Let me know if you need further input or have any questions. IntentionallyDense (Contribs) 02:51, 29 January 2025 (UTC)
Thank you for your review and second opinion which allows me to resume and complete my review. I highly appreciate your assistance. Borsoka (talk) 06:05, 31 January 2025 (UTC)
Borsoka Is their anything else I should do? Arberian2444 (talk) 04:07, 30 January 2025 (UTC)
Sorry, but my access to internet is extremly limited for more than a week. I will complete the review after 9th February. Meanwhile, you can address the issues raised above by IntentionallyDense. Borsoka (talk) 06:05, 31 January 2025 (UTC)
Ok! Thank you again! Arberian2444 (talk) 07:07, 31 January 2025 (UTC)
@Arberian2444: please delete all quotes from the citations, because they likely present copyvio. Borsoka (talk) 03:01, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
@Borsoka: All Quotes have been removed. Thank you again! Arberian2444 (talk) 04:03, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
What is the source of the "Family tree"?
Could you use a reference template (for instance ) for references? Now, the same information of the same publication is repeated multiple times in sections "References" and "Bibliography". Borsoka (talk) 04:30, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
@Borsoka: Ok! Finished that with the quotes. For the family tree I just added the source to it! Arberian2444 (talk) 05:12, 10 February 2025 (UTC)
@Borsoka: Thank you so much during this process! Have a great day! Arberian2444 (talk) 04:21, 11 February 2025 (UTC)
I hope you will continue your list of articles about the history of Albania. Borsoka (talk) 04:45, 11 February 2025 (UTC)
I will! Thank you again!! Arberian2444 (talk) 05:09, 11 February 2025 (UTC)