# Talk:Fostoria Glass Company

This review is transcluded from Talk:Fostoria Glass Company/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Epicgenius (talk · contribs) 20:19, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

@TwoScars: I'll take this. Here are some of my initial comments (I'll write these comments in order based on sections). epicgenius (talk) 20:19, 2 January 2020 (UTC)


### Writing and coverage
Lead section

The Fostoria Glass Company manufactured pressed, blown and hand-molded glassware and tableware for almost 100 years - I'm not sure you need to include the last part of the sentence, and it sounds really strange, especially since the years of operation aren't mentioned until later on. Would it be better to say The Fostoria Glass Company was a manufacturer pressed, blown and hand-molded glassware and tableware.?
Changed to The Fostoria Glass Company was a manufacturer of pressed, blown and hand-molded glassware and tableware. TwoScars (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
The new company was formed by men from West Virginia, - unnecessary comma
Dropped comma. TwoScars (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Numerous other businesses were started in the area, and the supply of natural gas began to diminish. - as a result of the glass company's establishment? Or something else?
Changed to Numerous other businesses were also started in the area, and collectively they depleted the natural gas supply. TwoScars (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Eventually, Fostoria employed 1,000 people - "Eventually" is too vague. Do you mean "at its peak" or a specific year?
Changed to The company employed 1,000 people at its 1950 peak. TwoScars (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
made profitability difficult for the company. - This is also vague. Did it lose money? If so, just say "caused the company to lose money".
Changed to During the 1970s, foreign competition and changing preferences forced the company to make substantial investments in cost-saving automation technology. The changes were made too late, and the company's commercial division was losing money by 1980. TwoScars (talk) 19:21, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Will do some more research on this. The Venable book does not say if losses occurred during the 1970s. Perhaps I can find something in the newspapers. TwoScars (talk) 19:21, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
No luck with Newspaper Archive—giving up on 1970s P&L. TwoScars (talk) 18:53, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
Several companies continued making products using the Fostoria patterns. - Can you clarify whether this is ongoing or this has stopped?
Changed to Several companies continued making products using the Fostoria patterns, including the Dalzell-Viking Glass Company and Indiana Glass Company—both now closed. (These are the major companies: Dalzell-Viking was run by the former president of Fostoria Glass and had some former Fostoria employees; Indiana Glass Company was also owned by Lancaster Glass Company. It is possible that other companies bought some of the molds, but these two are the ones mentioned in the sources.)  TwoScars (talk) 19:21, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Great. epicgenius (talk) 03:24, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
Background

Not really relevant to this article, but "List of Glass Companies Led by Former Employees of Hobbs, Brockunier and Company" should be lowercased to "List of glass companies led by former employees of Hobbs, Brockunier and Company" per Wikipedia:Title capitalization.
Also, you can combine the two "See also" templates.
Combined.  TwoScars (talk) 22:23, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
In the last half of the 19th century, labor was one of the two largest cost categories in the United States glass making industry - I get what "cost categories" means, but it still sounds strange. I take it that labor was one of the industry's two top expenses? If yes, then this should say it in a manner more clearly than "cost categories".
Changed to In the last half of the 19th century, labor and fuel were the two largest expenses in U.S. glassmaking. TwoScars (talk) 22:23, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
The Hobbs glass works, located in Ohio County's South Wheeling, West Virginia, was renamed numerous times over a period of about 60 years. Some of the names were Barnes & Hobbs; Hobbs & Barnes; Hobbs, Brockunier & Company; and Hobbs Glass Company - First, the location phrasing is weird. Can you say something like "South Wheeling in Ohio County, West Virginia". Second, this begs the question of whether we need to even mention that this is in Ohio County.
The counties are mentioned because the U.S. government reports on glassmaking rank production by county instead of city. A few of the counties, and their ranking, are mentioned in the next paragraph. I changed the start of the note to The Hobbs glass works, located in South Wheeling in Ohio County, West Virginia, was renamed.... TwoScars (talk) 22:23, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
which is located in Belmont County across the river from Wheeling and Ohio County - this would probably benefit from a comma, and cutting out "which is". I.e. , located in Belmont County, across the river from Wheeling and Ohio County.
Made change: One of the earliest places to which the Hobbs glass making talent spread was Bellaire, Ohio, located in Belmont County, across the river from Wheeling and Ohio County. TwoScars (talk) 22:23, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Waterways provided an efficient and safe way to transport glass - Can you explain why? I assume it's because glass can be transported via boats, but this should be explained more clearly.
Changed sentence to say Waterways provided an efficient and safe way to transport glass, especially before the construction of high-quality roads and the railroad system. I can add more if you think it is necessary. Using wagons over poor roads would obviously be an inefficient method to transport huge quantities of fuel long distances or to transport large quantities of glassware. Wheeling was connected to the East Coast by the B&O at the end of 1859, and railroads began being constructed in Ohio after that. TwoScars (talk) 22:23, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
It was reported that because of ice on the Ohio River, 600 barrels of glassware from the Fostoria Class Company were waiting shipment at the Moundsville warf - These should be spelled "Glass" and "wharf". See my previous note asking why waterways were important.
Fixed spelling. TwoScars (talk) 22:23, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
As of 1880 - "By 1880" perhaps?
Made change. TwoScars (talk) 22:23, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, (Pittsburgh) - the parentheses are awkward, if you wanted to say Pittsburgh is in Allegheny County.
Changed to say Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, (which includes Pittsburgh) was the nation's leading glass producer based on value of production. TwoScars (talk) 22:23, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Fuel was the other large cost category for making glass in the United States - see my note above about cost categories.
Fixed—see next comment. TwoScars (talk) 22:23, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Come to think of it, is it necessary to explain the reason behind fuel being so expensive? This seems slightly off-topic. This can be condensed into three or four sentences, in my view.
Changed first sentence and eliminated the sentences that describe the glassmaking process—remember that part of the purpose of this paragraph is to provide a reason for switching to natural gas in Fostoria, Ohio. The paragraph now starts as Since fuel was one of the top two expenses in glassmaking, manufacturers needed to monitor its availability and cost. Wood and coal had .....  TwoScars (talk) 22:23, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Sounds like a good compromise to me. epicgenius (talk) 03:24, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
Beginning

The founders of the Fostoria Glass Company were drawn to Fostoria, Ohio, to exploit the newly discovered natural gas. In addition to the natural gas, Fostoria was well served by railroads. - The second sentence of this excerpt is awkwardly placed, and I feel it would be better to combine it with the first sentence, so that it's clear that both the natural gas and railroad access drew the glass company to Fostoria.
I will work on it. The Paquette source does not mention railroads. The Murray source, discussing a brochure, says "In the same issue was a long narrative of Fostoria virtues: location, railroads, natural gas—all seemingly directed to prospective industry."
Reworded several sentences. Paquette appears to rate the natural gas and cash as the most important incentives. It was probably mandatory that any glass plant be served by a waterway or railroad. TwoScars (talk) 18:53, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
The new firm also received incentives of $5,000 to $10,000 cash. ($10,000 in 1887 is equivalent to $284,556 in 2019.) - Do you have any better way to phrase this? It may be helpful (but not necessary) to include the conversion of $5,000, since the inflation numbers aren't round numbers. So most people can't calculate the conversion of $5,000 simply by dividing by 2.
Fixed. TwoScars (talk) 22:11, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
Production began December 15, 1887, and products included tableware, bar goods, and lamps - Would be good to condense this sentence, since "products" is repeated here, and even if you replaced one of these instances with a synonym, it just wouldn't flow well. As of now, these sound like two different thoughts that can be connected, but aren't.
Changed to Production of tableware, bar goods, and lamps began on December 15, 1887.
The glass men that formed the new company were from Wheeling or had worked there at one time. ... - First, I suggest "were either from Wheeling...". Second, I think a good rule of thumb for this paragraph is one sentence per person, to make it easier to follow.
Fixed. TwoScars (talk) 22:11, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
The company hired Henry Humphreville to be plant manager. Humphreville was from the nation's other center of glassmaking innovation: Pittsburgh.[3] He had also worked at Brady's Riverside Glass Company in Wellsburg. - Same as above.
Fixed. TwoScars (talk) 22:11, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
The Crimmels, O'Neal, and Scroggins were mentioned in a Bellaire newspaper article.[22] Henry and Jacob Crimmel were "key craftsmen in the early period of the company" and both had worked at Belmont Glass Company in Bellaire and Hobbs, Brockunier and Company in Wheeling.[23] Crimmel family recipes for glass were used in the early days of the Fostoria Glass Company.[24] - Interesting that this should be in a note, while the sentence Their work experience included glassmaking at the Belmont Glass Company (in Bellaire) and at Wheeling's Hobbs, Brockunier and Company. is in prose format.
Can you expand more on the importance of The Crimmels, O'Neal, and Scroggins in the prose?
What is the importance of them being mentioned in the news?
Shortened the note and moved the Crimmel info to the main text. Scroggins and O'Neal must have been well thought of to merit their names in the newspaper, and I believe a Jake Crimmel (he eventually became a columnist for American Flint) article may have mentioned them in a column that I cannot find right now. A Frank O'Neil of Fostoria invented a machine that could press 27 glass jar lids per minute, so I suspect the family was talented. The Crimmels were important because Henry was involved in the startup of at least 4 glass companies (for example: Novelty Glass Company), and Jacob became important with the American Flint Glass Workers Union.
More later. epicgenius (talk) 20:19, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
Ok, continuing review... epicgenius (talk) 03:24, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
Early products:

The company advertised as a manufacturer of pressed glassware. Specialties were candle stands, candelabras, and banquet lamps. - I guess you can combine these two sentences, or reword them so that the first sentence leads into the second.
Combined. TwoScars (talk) 22:11, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
Another early pattern was called Cascade. This pattern looked like a swirl, and was very popular. It was used for candelabras and ink wells - Consider combining these as well, or rewording.
Combined and reworded. TwoScars (talk) 22:11, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
This was the first tableware pattern made, and it continued through the years under different names. - still referring to Cascade?
Changed "This" to "Cascade". TwoScars (talk) 22:11, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
Another talented designer was Martin (company president), who patented the Cascade ink well (called an inkstand) and a paper weight with swirl sides - do you need the parentheses, or can you rephrase this?
Rephrased. TwoScars (talk) 22:11, 5 January 2020 (UTC)
I guess you can move parts of notes 6 and 7 into the prose.
Moved all into prose with changes. TwoScars (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
A pattern made in Fostoria that is popular with collectors is called Victoria. A wide variety of products were made using this pattern. This is the only pattern that was patented by the company. - this also flows somewhat roughly. Also, do you know why this was popular?
Redid the paragraph. The source implies that its popularity is because it was only made in Fostoria—never in Moundsville. However, it does not specifically say that is the reason for its popularity, so I believe I need to imply here too. The source also alludes to the probability that the pattern was copied from a French company, but does not specifically say the pattern was copied. TwoScars (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
Here is what the paragraph says now: The Victoria pattern is popular with collectors, and a wide variety of products were made with this pattern. It is the only pattern that was patented by the company. Its appearance is "almost identical" to a French company's pattern, and Fostoria Glass had some employees from France's glassmaking region. When the company moved to Moundsville, all of the molds for this pattern mysteriously disappeared. The missing molds were never found, and the Victoria pattern was never produced again. TwoScars (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. epicgenius (talk) 04:26, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
Fostoria Glass had employees who were from the glassmaking region of France. - maybe "France's glassmaking region"?
Made change.
Move to Moundsville

Unfortunately for the area glass factories, - "Unfortunately" may be subjective
Changed first two sentences to Northwest Ohio's gas boom was short lived, as gas shortages started occurring during the winter of 1890–91. TwoScars (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
In early December, the move to Moundsville was delayed by a temporary restraining order. Several members of the Crimmel family, who owned stock in the company, filed suit. - Consider rephrasing or combining these again.
Changed to In early December, the move to Moundsville was delayed by a temporary restraining order when several members of the Crimmel family, who owned stock in the company, filed suit.
the restraining order was lifted a short time later. - same month?
The source says "The restraining order was apparently only temporarily effective, as the plant did leave Fostoria." It also mentions that the plant was vacated during December, with an official date of December 31. Reworded the whole section, but cannot say the exact day the restraining order was lifted—only in time for the company to be out by the end of the month. TwoScars (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
In addition to the $10,000 cash incentive, the company was also offered a 10-year supply of coal at a low price. - the $10,000 cash incentive was mentioned in the first paragraph. However, the mention of the injunction interrupts the discussion of the cash and fuel incentives. Can the second and third paragraphs be swapped?
Took the sentence about the 10-year supply of coal out of paragraph 3 and moved it to paragraph 1. TwoScars (talk) 21:37, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
Moundsville operations

Another co-founder, William Brady, also moved to the Pittsburg firm a short time later. - be consistent about whether you use "Pittsburg" or "Pittsburgh"
Fixed. TwoScars (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
In 1899, he worked for National Glass Company - Starting in 1899? Or did he start earlier and that was just the situation by 1899?
Changed to When Fostoria Glass became associated with National Glass in 1899, Dalzell was working at the trust as manager of the western department. TwoScars (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
In 1903, the company added a three-story brick building that housed a 14-pot furnace. This was thought to make it the largest independent glass plant in the United States.[50] It meant that Fostoria Glass was operating with three large furnaces. - I think this can be condensed into two sentences. The transitions between these sentences is currently pretty rough.
Redid to two sentences: In 1903, the company already operated two large furnaces when it added a three-story brick building that housed a new 14-pot furnace. One trade magazine believed that the addition made the company "probably the largest independent flint glass concern in the country...."
At that time, it was said - by whom?
Changed to At that time, a trade magazine said that the company "makes so....." If necessary, "trade magazine" could be changed to "Glass and Pottery World", but that is already footnoted. TwoScars (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
Moundsville Products

Yet, Fostoria glassware is also found on lists of Depression glass. - If it contradicts the previous statement, use "However". If not, just delete the word "Yet".
Changed to However. Elegant glass and Depression glass are very different. TwoScars (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
In the 1960s, collectors began being interested in the inexpensive versions of glass made during the Great Depression, and the term "Depression glass" was born.[56] The term Depression Glass eventually began to be used for glass made beyond the Great Depression years, including years from 1925 through the 1970s. By the 1990s, the phrase "elegant glassware of the Depression" was being used to describe the better quality glass made at the same time as Depression glass.[56] Thus, some of the patterns made by Fostoria using crystal glass are listed in books about Depression glass.[57] - this note is pretty long, and I think Depression glass has its own article.
Eliminated the first half of the note. It now says By the 1990s, the phrase "elegant glassware of the Depression" was being used to describe the better quality glass made at the same time as Depression glass. Thus, some of the patterns made by Fostoria using crystal glass are listed in books about Depression glass. TwoScars (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
One pattern that should be easy for historians to remember is pattern 1861. - "Easy" is considered subjective and should be removed, unless this was mentioned verbatim in a source, then it should be quoted.
Dropped the sentence. TwoScars (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
Management around this time was still led by is W. A. B. Dalzell as company president. - "was still led by W. A. B. Dalzell"
Fixed. TwoScars (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
peaked around 650 people - "peaked at around 650 people"
Fixed. TwoScars (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
Depression and Post War

Except for the first word, the heading should be lowercase, with dash between post and war: "Depression and post-war"
Fixed. TwoScars (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
A combination of outstanding products and national advertising - "Outstanding" is another word to be cautious of, and can be interpreted as opinion. If you meant "distinctive", say so.
The source talks of "high-quality" products and "cutting edge national advertising". Changed outstanding to quality. TwoScars (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
Beginning with President Dwight D. Eisenhower, every American president through Ronald Reagan had glassware made by Fostoria. - can be possibly shortened: "Every American president from Dwight D. Eisenhower through Ronald Reagan..."
Fixed. TwoScars (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
own consumer direct magazine, "Creating with Crystal" - there needs to be a comma after "Creating with Crystal". Also, is there a wikilink for consumer direct?
Added comma. Consumer Direct in wikipedia is something different: Consumer Direct was a Government-funded call centre providing basic consumer advice in the United Kingdom."  I also looked at different versions of marketing, but could not find a good fit. TwoScars (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
Morgantown

First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy had chosen Morgantown glassware for official White House tableware, and Fostoria sought to capitalize on this. Morgantown was also a leader in barware. - These two sentences contain an abrupt transition. I'd consider rephrasing.
Rephrased to Morgantown was a leader in barware and also made tableware. First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy had chosen Morgantown glassware for official White House tableware, and Fostoria sought to capitalize on this. Glassware from Morgantown could be sold as stylish entry-level tableware for the.... TwoScars (talk) 18:01, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Decline

Back in 1950 - do you need the word "back"?
Dropped "Back". TwoScars (talk) 18:01, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Changing dinnerware preferences and foreign competition made profitability difficult for the company during the 1970s. - similar to what I mentioned above: does this mean that the company was earning less money year-over-year?
The sources imply that, but do not specifically state profitability for the 1970s. Reworded to say During the 1970s, changing preferences and a substantial increase in imports of machine-made lead-crystal tableware forced the company to make significant investments in machinery. This late attempt to be more competitive by automating more of the manufacturing process unsettled the labor force, and the company faced strikes during the early 1970s. By 1980, the company's commercial division was unprofitable. TwoScars (talk) 18:01, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Unlink "factory", as it's a common term.
Fixed. TwoScars (talk) 18:01, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
However, the Fostoria Glass factory was shut down permanently on February 28, 1986. - despite Lancaster Colony Corporation now operating the factory?
Yes, shut down. Reworded to say However, Lancaster Colony shut down the Fostoria Glass factory permanently on February 28, 1986. TwoScars (talk) 18:01, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
The American, Baroque, and Coin patterns were therefore produced by others - "therefore" doesn't sound like the right word. Try "thereafter".
Replaced therefore with thereafter. TwoScars (talk) 18:01, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
That's it for the writing and coverage section. Next I will go to the references and notes. epicgenius (talk) 04:26, 7 January 2020 (UTC)


### Sources/notes
Not too many issues here 

"O-I [Owens-Illinois] Retiree's Quest to Clear up History of Glass Industry Develops into Book". Toledo Blade. 2002-09-24. p. online web page. - Do you have a URL or archive URL for this page? If you do this, the text "p. online web page" is also not needed.
Changed template to newspaper-on-web, added URL, and used a more useful quote. TwoScars (talk) 18:30, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
For citations like Around the Glass and Lamp Factories (right column, bottom of page), the parenthetical should be outside of the quote marks unless it is part of the actual title.
The template is dong that. I fixed by commenting out the (right column, bottom of page) part. If someone is having trouble finding it, they will have to look in the code at the comment. TwoScars (talk) 18:30, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
The citation Weeks, Joseph Dame; United States Census Office (1884). Report on the Manufacture of Glass. Washington: Government Printing Office. p. 1152. OCLC 2123984. does not have any short footnotes linking to it. Therefore, I would remove the |ref=harv parameter. epicgenius (talk) 16:14, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
Took it out. TwoScars (talk) 18:30, 9 January 2020 (UTC)


### POV
This appears to be neutrally written. Some of the paragraphs contain one to three sentences about individual glass patterns. In addition, there is a good amount of history on the glass company itself.

I felt like it would be incomplete without some information on a few of the most popular patterns. Last October, someone added information about 10 more patterns without any citations—I took those out. TwoScars (talk) 18:47, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Overall, I would generally say that this article is focused, due to the use of explanatory footnotes to corral off the less relevant details. epicgenius (talk) 16:16, 7 January 2020 (UTC)


### Overall
Prose looks good other than the issues I have described. epicgenius (talk) 04:26, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

I think I am all caught up. Am I missing anything? TwoScars (talk) 18:47, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
TwoScars, no, I think everything should be good. It is getting late where I am, but I'll check this early tomorrow. epicgenius (talk) 04:16, 11 January 2020 (UTC)