# Talk:Mike Avery

don't delete the article, because i'm not done with it yet. I will add more information, and make it look better when I get time. But until then, show patience and keep the article.

I believe that the head coach of the NCAA teams meet the WP:Notable criteria. TheBigJagielka (talk) 20:34, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I don't. That is no different to the head coach of any other non-professional football team.--ClubOranjeT 10:58, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

"During a four-year span, he enjoyed stints with Real Santa Barbara and Askims (Sweden). He also served as a player-coach for the Indiana Invaders." Full of weasel words and doesn't cut it for me. He may have played for their third team, reserves or Sunday social side for all that tells me. Every other player that has played professionally has stats quoted on numerous sites. Every other player under AfD that casually claims to have played professionally for a club gets deleted unless there is evidence they actually took the field for a competitive match. This reference does not verify that. If he had actually played it would be relatively easy to prove, but no-one seems to be able to provide that proof.--ClubOranjeT 11:04, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Aside from the college bios, I can't find any evidence of him playing for Real Santa Barbara or Askims and only a passing reference to him at the Invaders website. The difficulty is that the majority of his career is pre-website era, meaning that potentially valuable evidence may be more difficult to find. Your observation on the availability of reliable statistical information may be true of other leagues but the discontinuity of US soccer competitions in the 80s and 90s makes finding information a particular challenge. Hack (talk) 11:28, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Mike Avery/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: MrLinkinPark333 (talk · contribs) 02:53, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Hello! Thought I'd review this one. I haven't reviewed a soccer one before. Feel free to correct me if I make any mistakes about terminology. If you have any questions/comments, feel free to ping me here.


### College Y
"Born in San Jose, California, Avery attended Westmont College in Montecito between 1986 and 1989." - Valpo doesn't say he was born in San Jose, California. Extra source needed.
 Done,  the article about him being hired at Notre Dame includes the birth place. Added that to the end of that first sentence. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC) Verified
Valpo says Westmont is in Santa Barbara (yes I know Montecito is part of Santa Barbara, but it's not specified).
 Done so every source I can find says that Westmont is in Santa Barbara. I don't like the inaccuracy compared to what the school says, and I didn't want to add a source simply stating that fact, so i just removed that information entirely. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC) Verified
While Avery did play for Valpo between 1986-89, he graduated from Valpo in 1990. A minor edit is needed, whether you want to focus on playing or attending years.
 Done, I focused on the years he played, that's also what most sources indicate. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC) Verified
"Westmont won the Golden State Athletic Conference (GSAC) during their first year in the conference" - all time records doesn't say they participated/won the 1986 conference. A new source is needed here.
 Done, added the awards and honors source to this sentence. Verified
Any particular reason why his assists in 1987 is not mentioned? I'm wondering as the other three years with Valpo has the assists.
 Done, no idea why, I've added it in now. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC) Verified
"He dropped off as a junior, tallying just four goals" - this part doesn't sound neutral with "dropped off" and "just". I suggest removing these parts.
 Done, the sentence now reads " As a junior, he tallied four goals and six assists from 23 games and was again named all-GSAC as Westmont won their third consecutive conference title.", with the references now combined at the end. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC) Verified
"but was again named all-GSAC" - "but" is editorializing in connection to the previous part of the sentence.
 Done, see above. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC) Verified
"with the Warriors making a run to the semifinals of the NAIA Tournament" - not mentioned in the 1989 season, only the players stats.
 Done, added a reference to back this up. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
See below. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 22:20, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
"Avery was named as an Honorable Mention All-America following the season" - I think this could be rephrased to "was named an Honorable Mention All-American" or something similar as it sounds a bit off. I could be wrong.
 Done, rephrased to your suggestion. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
See below. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 22:20, 24 November 2019 (UTC)


#### Additional points
I'd drop the all-time records source for Westmont's GSAC first conference win, as it doesn't mention any conference matches in 1986. The source you added (awards and honors) would be sufficient enough. Verified
The additional source for the 1988 NAIA tournament doesn't specifically say they went to the semi-finals in 1988. Yes they made the finals in 1989, but the previous year is not exact. Verified
Should it be All-America or All-American for his Honorable Mention? --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 22:20, 24 November 2019 (UTC) Verified
 Done for concerns one and three. For the second concern, I don't think the 1988 tournament is mentioned in the prose; for the 1989 one, the source says "The Warriors captured the 1972 National Championship and advanced to the NAIA Final Four in 1989." I can change the prose to clarify that the "national semifinals" were the Final Four, if you think that would be necessary. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, I meant 1989 not 1988. I think semi-finals is fine as that means final four. No need to change it. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 21:55, 27 November 2019 (UTC)


### Senior career Y
"by signing for Real Santa Barbara in the American Professional Soccer League." - true, but Notre Dame doesn't specify which league Santa Barbara was in.
 Done, added a reference to support the league. Note: see below
"He played for the club during their final season of existence, helping Real qualify for the playoffs out of the West Conference." - citation needed for the entire sentence as Los Angeles Times only talks about Santa Barbara playing in the playoffs. It doesn't mention the conference name, 1990 being their final season, nor Avery played in the qualifying matches that led to the playoffs.
 Done, changed and added sources to back up the conference name, final season, and playoffs (however, the "qualifying matches" were just the regular season, they qualified by finishing third in their division). Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC) Note: see below
Should the team be mentioned as Santa Barbara instead of Real? Maybe that's just me. Resolved
 Done, probably not just you, changed. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
"They were eliminated in the first round by Los Angeles Heat, falling in a 30-minute mini-game after the sides split the first two matches in the series" - The Los Angeles Times source talks about the first match only. It doesnt say Santa Barbara tied it up in game two nor the Heat eliminated Santa Barbara in game three. Resolved
Y see below. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
This also seems like out of scope as (currently) the source does not back up that Avery was part of the playoff matches. Resolved
 Done, I couldn't find a source that even showed the rosters for the game, so I removed this sentence entirely. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
"After the club folded, Avery moved to Sweden and appeared with Askims IK in the Swedish Division 2" - Notre Dame doesn't state Santa Barbara folded. Resolved
 Done, added a reference for this. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Notre Dame also states he played for Chicago Power before moving to Sweden. So he didn't go to Sweden right after Santa Barbara.
Y Again, this is a weird one with conflicting sources. Obviously that article says he played for the Power, but Notre Dame's own profile of Avery doesn't mention it; also, the only stats I can find for the Power that season don't include Avery. Since that article was the only mention of Avery playing for the Power, and multiple sources not mentioning it at all, I left it out. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Fair enough. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 00:38, 28 November 2019 (UTC)  Resolved
Finally, Notre Dame doesn't specify which team Askims IK was in.
 Done, added a source to back up the league for Askims IK (I can also add this for the 1992 and 1993 seasons, if necessary). Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC) Note: see below
"He also spent time in the Premier Development League with Indiana Invaders, playing with the first team" - similarly, Valpo doesn't say which league the invaders are part of.
 Done, added a reference to support the league for the Invaders. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC) Note: see below
What do you mean by "first team"?
Y /  Done The Invaders club has a whole youth setup, from roughly U8 up to high school-age (18 or 19) teams. I'm changing this to say "senior team", to better reflect that he played for the senior-level team at the club. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2019 (UTC) Note: see below


#### Additional comments
A-Leagues Archives is unofficial, so I don't think I can accept it for reliability.
 Done, changed the source to one from RSSSF, which should work for reliability. Resolved
For the sources you added for the 1990 WSL season, neither state Avery played in the qualifying matches or playoffs. Resolved
 Done, still couldn't find any good source to back this up so I removed that part entirely.
I don't think Class Glenning's source is reliable per SPS.
 Done, replaced with a reference from the club.
Could you point me to which part of the club source backs up the Division 2 part? --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 00:17, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
The quoted sentence, it's kinda hidden at the end of the reference (and on the page under the heading "Högsta" serierna). Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
Okay but this one is now a case of Synthesis. Yes, Askims IK played in Division 2 in the 1990s, and Avery played with Askims. But, UND doesn't say Avery played with Askims IK in the 1990s. New source needed to replace UND as their club year specifically states a decade. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 01:48, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
Every source I can find on this one says the same thing: he graduated in 1990 and during a four-year span played with RSB and Askims; he then received a master's degree in 1994. Is there enough in that synopsis to use it for this information, or should I just remove the league detail entirely? Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:17, 8 December 2019 (UTC){ Note: resolved at final bottom section
Not 100% sure about Soccerstats.us as a reliable source. Found a bit of discussion in the Wikiproject.
Y Just fyi, three of those discussions are for SoccerStats.com, a different website. SoccerStats.us isn't listed at WP:RSP, so no help there. As far as I can tell, it isn't user-generated but it is open source. I could add an archive link to the Invaders USLSoccer.com page to back up that they were in the PDL, or to a PDL team list if you think either of those would be better.
The PDL team list looks the most reliable if you don't mind switching it. Thanks for digging for it! --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 00:17, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 Done, changed. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC) Resolved
Valpo doesn't specifically say it was the senior team he played for Indiana. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 00:38, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
 Done, changed to read "playing as well as serving in an undisclosed coaching role". Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 23:51, 4 December 2019 (UTC) Resolved


### Section break
I'll work on the coaching career paragraphs and lead later on, as I can't review all of it in one sitting. So far, I see verification issues in terms of minor tweaks (such as city name/years/league names) and bigger issues like the sentences regarding Santa Barbara's qualifying and playoff matches. There's also one instance each of non neutral and editorializing with one possible grammar issue. I'll continue to work on this throughout the seven day review and let you know once I'm finished. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 02:53, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

All above sections before this section break are dealt with except for Askims IK played in Division 2 in the 1990s for senior career --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 01:50, 7 December 2019 (UTC)


### Coaching career / 1994 - 1999 Y
"Avery returned to the United States to pursue a master's degree in kinesiology." - Avery was already in the USA as he played for Indiana before going to Midwestern.
Y so this one is a weird one, but basically there's a reason why the Invaders don't have years listed in the infobox –  none of the sources say exactly when he played for them. Either way, though, the club didn't exist until 1998, so he would have been able to go straight from Sweden to Midwestern State. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC) Note: see below
"He attended Midwestern State University and while studying for the degree also served as an assistant coach for the Mustangs" - NCCAA doesn't talk about his degree (but the previous citation does). So you could combine them.
 Done, combined the two sources in this section at the end of the second sentence. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC) Resolved
However: NCCAA doesn't say Midwestern State University's team is the Mustangs.
 Done, changed to say "their men's soccer program". Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC) Note: see below
"In the fall of 1994, Avery was hired to his first head coaching position, getting the job at Bethel College in Indiana." - page 2 of NCCAA doesn't say fall 1994 (but page 1 does), so I suggest tweaking the page range for this one only.
 Done, changed the reference to support both pages. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC) Resolved
NCCAA also is not specific with this being his first head coach position, nor that Bethel College is in Indiana.
 Done added a reference to back up that it was Avery's first position and that Bethel is in Indiana. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC) Resolved
"the next three seasons in charge" - I think it'd be two, as he was hired in 1994 and remained with the Pilots until 1996.
 Done, to make things clearer I changed this to read "He would spend three seasons in charge". Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:15, 22 November 2019 (UTC) Resolved
"Bethel had won just three matches in the season prior to Avery's arrival, but he led them to a 10-9-1 record" - all true, but a few words need tweaking for neutrality/editorializing. Specifically "just" and "but".
 Done, I removed "just" and tweaked the wording of the second clause. I couldn't find a good way to remove "but"; I hope the sentence is more neutral with the tweaks, though. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC) Note: see below
For his awards with the Pilots, the 2019-20 record book has the new name (Crossroad League) and not the older name (Mid-Central College Conference). Not a big issue but thought I should mention it.
Y gotcha, I'll look around and see if I can find any old sources from before the name change. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
"Avery returned to his home state of California in 1997 when he was hired as the director of soccer at California State University, San Bernardino" - CSUSB doesn't state California is Avery's state (per the college paragraph).
 Done, removed "to his home state" from the sentence. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC) Note: see below
He was head coach, not director of soccer in 1997.
Y again, a weird one here. This NWI Times source says "After getting married, the couple moved to California where Mike took over as the Director of Soccer at Cal State University, San Bernardino...", and this article just says he was the director of soccer for three years. I get where you're coming from with this, but the sourcing seems to suggest that his title was the same in 1997, even if he was only coaching the men's team. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC) Note: see below
" In his first year with the Coyotes, he only was in charge of the men's program." - I recommend dropping "only" as this is citing the men's soccer team. Yes the article is talking about the CSUSB's women's team later on, but it's in a different citation.
 Done, removed. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC) Resolved
"with a 2–1 victory over his former school, Midwestern State." - CSUSB doesn't state Midwestern State was his previous school so "former school" should be dropped.
 Done, removed "his former school," Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC) Resolved
"Although the Coyotes were rebuilding during his time at the school, under Avery's tenure the men's program improved their record each season" - close paraphrasing with "rebuilding". I don't think it falls under Limited wording. "Improved" i think would be fine under limited ways to say it.
 Done, going back I didn't really like how this sentence flowed. Changed it to read " During Avery's tenure, the Coyote men's program improved their record each season." Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC) Resolved
"He tallied a record of 17-39-2 during his three years in charge of the team" - citation needed as the adjacent source is for the women's team records.
 Done, added the same reference here as in the stats box. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC) Resolved
"The Coyote women finished with eight victories in both of Avery's seasons in charge" - shouldn't it be the other way around? As this article is about Avery, this sentence directs attention to the women's team, and not Avery.
 Done, changed around the order of these clauses and removed a comma for grammatical reasons. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:15, 22 November 2019 (UTC) Resolved


#### Additional points
If the Invaders started in 1998 (which Avery's article is not clear that this is the case), then Avery did not end his career before he graduated/started coaching at Midwestern in 1994. Therefore, the sentence needs rewriting. Resolved
 Done, rewrote here to read "Following his time in Sweden, Avery returned to the United States..."; also a slight rewording in the senior career section.
NCCAA doesn't specify it was the "men's" soccer team he was hired for at Midwestern.
Y MSU didn't have a women's soccer team until 1995, so they wouldn't have needed to specify this at the time.
Well, this is presuming even though that is the case. I'd suggest resourcing / adding a source that state's it was for the men's program. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 00:30, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
Y Unfortunately, I couldn't find a single source outside of the NCCAA source (and to be honest, I'm lucky somebody had added that one back in 2010!) Does it work to just remove "men's" from the prose? Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
Sounds fine for me.  Resolved --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 01:41, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
"Bethel had won three matches in the season prior to Avery's arrival," - hmm. Not sure if this is peacocky. It sounded fine before but now i'm not sure.
"arrival...including a 9–0 victory over Lake Erie in his first match as a head coach." - now I read it, it sounds like a long sentence. I suggest breaking it up to help with neutrality/grammar.
 Done for both concerns, how about "Bethel had won three matches in the season prior to Avery's arrival, but in his first year in charge finished with a 10-9-1 record. In his first match as a head coach, Bethel tallied a 9–0 victory over Lake Erie." I also considered switching up the clauses in the second sentence, if that sounds better to you.
The second sentence is fine, but the first isn't. The three matches Bethel won before Avery came in might be out of scope. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 00:30, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 Done, another try on this one: how about "In Avery's first year, the Pilots finished with a 10-9-1 record, including a 9–0 victory over Lake Erie in his first match in charge." It's just one sentence, but cuts out the other matches and should work for neutrality? Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
A lot better.  Resolved --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 01:41, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
Also i think it should be "as head coach" as the Pilots source doesn't say it was his first ever head coach match (plus it's already stated earlier).
 Done, moved this above the CSUSB point for clarity but changed.
Bethel Pilots doesn't say he was a head coach. Maybe reworded it a smidge? Yes i'm being picky. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 00:30, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 Done (as per the above change), reworded to remove that part. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC) Resolved
Cal State doesn't specify he "returned" to California. Yes he did per the article overall, but with this specific source alone no.
 Done, to clear this up with the sourcing I changed the sentence to read "Ahead of the 1997 collegiate season, Avery was hired as the director of soccer..."
The source doesn't specify a year unfortunately for his hiring. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 00:30, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 Done, moved a source up one sentence to back up the year; it could go right after the comma if that would work better to source the year. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
Again, NW Times doesn't state when he was hired in the 1997 season before / during ). If there was a source that specifys when exactly he was hired for Cal State, then it'd work better. Otherwise, you could simplify/reword the sentence based on the given sources. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 02:07, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 Done? the article from his hiring at Notre Dame states he had been the CSUSB coach since 1997, if that works. (I could also reword it to say something along the lines of "Avery began serving as the director of soccer at CSUSB in 1997...") Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:17, 8 December 2019 (UTC) Note: resolved at final bottom section
If you wish to use director of soccer for his Cal State position, an additional source with this title is needed as the Coyotes source alone doesn't support it. Resolved
 Done, added the NWI Times articles as a source here.
"16-22-2 on the women's side" - seems redundant of "women's side" as you already mentioned Coyote women. Resolved
 Done, ended the sentence after the record.
The Crossroads renaming is optional and not a requirement. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 01:28, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Gotcha. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 23:51, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
"He attended Midwestern State University and while studying for the degree also served as an assistant coach for their men's soccer program" - might be better in two sentences to prevent a run-on sentence. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 00:30, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 Done, changed to be one sentence about the degree and one about the coaching. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC)  Resolved


### 2000 - 2006 Y
"However, Berticelli passed away on January 25, 2000, shortly after Avery had resigned at Cal State San Bernardino" - NWTimes doesn't have the exact date of Berticelli's death. However, the adjacent source does so the citations need to be bundled.
 Done, dropped the NWI Times reference back one sentence. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC) Resolved
Also "passed away" needs to be replaced per WP:EUPHEMISM.
 Done, replaced with "died". Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:15, 22 November 2019 (UTC) Resolved
"Nearly two months later, on March 17, 2000, new Fighting Irish head coach Chris Apple" - Notre Dame's source doesn't specifically say their team's name is the Fighting Irish. There's a passing mention of Irish, but again not 100% said. Resolved
 Done, removed "Fighting". Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
"Avery spent six years at the school, one year under Apple and five years under Bobby Clark" - yes but the sources are contradicting each other. In the Notre Dame source, Avery specifically said he was there for six years, with Clark joining in 2001. With NWTimes however, it says Avery stayed with Clark for six more years after Clark joined in 2001. I think the NWTimes source should be removed to prevent the contradiction. Resolved
 Done, removed that source. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
"On March 3, 2006, Avery accepted a job as the head assistant and recruiting coordinator at the University of Louisville" - the Louisville source does not state which positions Avery was hired for. However, the adjacent citation has it, so citation bundling needed. Resolved
 Done, combined both references at the end of the paragraph. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
"for the first time in program history." - should it be "the program's history"? If not, that's fine for me. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 21:57, 14 November 2019 (UTC) Resolved
 Done, I feel like this could work either way, but if you thought about it, readers might as well. Changed. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2019 (UTC)


### 2007 - present
#### Paragraph one Y
"third head coach in the history of the men's soccer program at Valparaiso University" - bit of close paraphrasing with "third head coach" and "men's soccer program". If this was slightly tweaked, then I think it'd pass limited wording. Resolved
 Done, the sentence now reads "On January 18, 2007, Avery was hired as the head coach at Valparaiso University; he became the third coach in the history of the Crusaders men's soccer team." Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
"He joined his wife, Carin, at Valpo" - yes but it doesn't say Mike joined specifically in 2007 at his wife's profile. Note: - see below
 Done, added a reference to back this up. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
"Avery immediately set about remaking the Crusader program in his image," - This doesn't sound neutral with "in his image". Resolved
 Done, removed those three words entirely. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:15, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
The 18 players were added in May, so this wouldn't be immediate as he was hired in January. Resolved
 Done, removed the word "immediately". To go with the above concern, the clause now reads "Avery set about remaking the Crusader program". Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:15, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Adding 18 players doesn't seem like remaking the program. This just seems like replacing the people who graduated, not reforming. Note: - see below
Y for context on this one, Valpo had only signed four players for the 2006 season and just six players in 2005. In 2006, they'd had only 20 players on the entire roster; Avery bumped that to a 32-man roster with 22 newcomers. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
"While the Crusaders won just four matches on the season, they conceded just 28 goals" - editorializing issues with "while" and "just" Note: - see below
 Done, the sentence now reads "The Crusaders won four matches on the season, but did so while conceding 28 goals..." Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
"the third-fewest in a season in program history" - close paraphrasing that needs rewording Note: - see below
 Done, reworded to read "the third-fewest ever conceded in a single season in Valpo history." Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC)


#### Additional points
While Cairn's profile doesn't state Avery was there at Valpo at the same time, the 2007 Valpo source doesn't mention Cairn was there upon Mike's hiring. I think this violates WP:SYNTH.
 Done, I added the NWI Times article as I believe it clarifies their timeline. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC) Resolved
Similiar editorializing issue with "but did so while conceding 28 goals" with "but"
 Done, I changed the sentence to read "on the season and did so while conceding 28 goals" Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC) Resolved
"the third-fewest ever conceded in a single season in Valpo history." - close paraphrasing with the word order. I think if the above editorializing issue was addressed alongside this, then maybe it'd work better.
 Done?, changed "ever conceded" to "allowed" if that's enough to eliminate the close paraphrasing.Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
Good enough.  Resolved --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 03:27, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
In terms of reforming, if more context was provided to explain how the 18 players was a "reforming" (while being netural), it'd help give a reason why this is important to mention.
 Done, how does it sound to add "and increasing the size of the roster from 20 to 33 players." to the end of the sentence? I could also use the roster as a source if necessary. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC)  Note: resolved at final bottom section
--MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 21:54, 30 November 2019 (UTC)


#### Paragraph two Y
"to raise money and awareness about the Crusaders program" - close paraphrasing requiring rewording Note: see below
 Done, this part now reads "to raise money for lights at Eastgate Field and new equipment for the program." Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
"(the final day of Valpo's regular season)" - not verified in NW Times source plus sounds like a side note. Resolved
 Done, removed entirely. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
"average more than 6 miles (9.7 kilometres) per day" - sorta. The 6 miles was in July, but that doesn't mean he averaged 6 miles each day onwards. Note: see below
 Done, I changed a few things around to now read "He blogged about the effort, which lasted from early June until November 2. Avery averaged more than 6 miles (9.7 kilometres) per day at the start, and as word spread he began taking mileage donations from supporters of the program." Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
"That year, the Crusaders picked up their first victory over a ranked program under Avery" - yes, but Valpo doesn't specifically state it was their first under Avery. The source says it was their first in six seasons. While it's accurate, it's not 100% stated. Resolved
 Done, changed to say "their first victory over a ranked program in six seasons." Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
The following season, 2009,...winding up 10-7-2." - not in Avery's Valpo profile. New source needed. Resolved
 Done, replaced with a new source. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
"The following season, 2009," - this seems disjointed. I'd recommend either dropping 2009 or saying 2009 season. Resolved
 Done, removed ", 2009" Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Any reason why certain seasons from 2010 onwards are skipped?
Y I wanted to try to avoid turning the article into a list of seasons and records. For example, in 2010 they barely cracked .500, didn't beat a ranked team, and didn't qualify for the conference tournament. None of that information is really notable enough to include in Avery's article, so there's really nothing to write about the season.
Fair enough. How about 2012, 2013, 2015, and/or 2016? I also wouldn't want Avery's article being cherrypicked with certain seasons and ignoring other ones. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 22:04, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
 Done, I've added a bunch of prose to help sum up those missing seasons and and some more background to this section, let me know what might need to be changed in those additions. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 18:19, 8 December 2019 (UTC)


##### Additional points
Now i think about it, the running, fundraising, and pledges seems like too much detail altogether. I think this might be better as a summary to focus on the main idea. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 22:04, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
 Done? Changed it up a bit to read "In 2008, Avery ran 1,000 miles (1,600 kilometres) in five months to raise money for lights at Eastgate Field and new equipment for the program. He averaged more than 6 miles (9.7 kilometres) per day at the start, and as word spread he began taking mileage donations from supporters of the program." Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 18:19, 8 December 2019 (UTC)  Note: resolved at final bottom section


#### Paragraph three  Resolved
There are some parts that are out of scope and should not be mentioned in Avery's article: Antonijevic's MLS draft, Antonijevic and Zobeck's awards, and Betancourt's entry to the team. These parts would be more suited to their individual articles. Resolved
 Done, removed these parts entirely.
"As the Crusaders finished 9-6-5, Avery was tabbed as the league's Coach of the Year" - I think "as" should be replaced with "After" because their record wouldn't guarantee that Avery would be named coach of the year. Resolved
 Done, changed.
Also, the 2011 Horizon League press release is broken for me. Archive link is here. Resolved
 Done, thanks for dredging up the archive link for me!
"multiple milestones" - doesn't seem netural with "milestones" Resolved
 Done, changed the sentence now that I've removed the out of scope parts.Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC)


#### Paragraph fourY
The 2014 National Soccer Coaches Association of America votes and top 25 TopDrawerSoccer.com ranking does not mention Avery. Therefore, I don't think this is relevant to Avery.
Cause of this, the no. 7 Michigan State defeat would need rewording.Y
 Done for both concerns? I've added another source that mentions both Avery and the rankings, if that works for you then I think the wording should be fine. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
also "milestone" neturality isssue per aboveY
 Done, replaced "milestone" with "mark" if that works. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC)


#### Paragraph five Y
Valparaiso's first game in the Missouri Valley Conference does not mention Avery in the student newspaper source. Resolved
 Done, added another reference that includes quotes from Avery. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
As Avery will no longer be head coach at Valpo, additional info is needed. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 02:06, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
 Done added information on the program discontinuation and his departure. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 18:19, 8 December 2019 (UTC) Note: resolved at final bottom section


### Personal life  Resolved
"The two met in 1996, when they were both working at Bethel, and were married later that year" - not verified in Cairn's Valpo profile.
 Done, found that information in the NWI Times article on them, added that reference on the end of the sentence. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2019 (UTC) Note: see below
"Carin served as the head coach at Southern California College...assistant for the Crusaders" - out of scope that seems more appropriate for Cairn Avery's article and not Mike Avery's.
 Done, removed that sentence. The reference to back up her position as head volleyball coach is now at the end of the opening sentence. Resolved Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
"Alex, who was born during the Mid-Continent Conference volleyball tournament" - not sure if this is exactly true. I think she gave birth a day before the tournament started.
 Done, yeah, I think you're right on that one. I just changed the wording to match that fact, but let me know if you think I should just remove that part entirely and just leave in his name. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
I'm on the fence with that one. I think if you leave it in, it gives equal weight (comment about each child). So I think it's fine.  Resolved  --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 01:50, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
KJ, who was adopted from Africa." - according to the NW Times quote, his name is Kasongo, not KJ.
 Done, changed. At the bottom of his (and Carin's) Valpo profile, it mentions in parentheses that Kasongo's nickname is KJ; I didn't add that to the article, but it still could be included if you think it would bring clarity. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
I think his full first name is good enough. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 01:50, 28 November 2019 (UTC)  Resolved


#### Additional points
NW Times does confirm the year they met, but I don't see the year they married. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 01:50, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
 Done, they were married before they moved to California in 1997, but saying that probably falls under WP:SYNTH now that I think about it. Removed. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 23:51, 4 December 2019 (UTC) Resolved


### Career statistics
Bethel Pilots's record book doesn't say his first game was in October of 1994, just 1994. Resolved
 Done, yeah, I don't know why I put that on there. Thanks for the catch. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Cal State San Bernardino Coyotes record books doesn't state March 16, 2000 for his final game with the men's and women's team. Both of his last games were in 1999.
Y So for this one, and for the same issue with Valpo, the usual WP:FOOTY standard (at least that I'm aware of) has been that those dates aren't the last game coached, but the dates they were hired/fired (for example, Gerardo Martino or Mauricio Pochettino, who just was fired yesterday). I'd have no real issue with changing this, but if so should I include a source for those dates in the reference column or directly next to the dates? Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Valpo says August 31, 2007 was his first game, not January 18, 2007.
Y See above ^ Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Also, the Valpo records only go to 2018 and says 87-92-45. The current numbers (89-96-46) are inaccurate.
 Done, I added a reference and updated the statistics through the end of the 2019 season. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2019 (UTC) Resolved


#### Additional point
Could you link me to a WP:FOOTY discussion that suggests that the end position dates are prefered in the coaching career, instead of last game dates? --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 02:10, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Y I couldn't find any discussion about this in the WP:FOOTY archives, so I've created a new discussion and tagged you in it on the FOOTY talk page, hopefully that'll bring some consensus from the project. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 23:51, 4 December 2019 (UTC)


### Honors Y
I think an extra source that says Avery was with Westmount when they won the 1986 GSAC would be needed. As Avery was honored 1987-89, those seasons wouldn't be disputed.
 Done, would the 1986 statistics from the school work? I've linked that reference down from the College section to show that he was on the team that season. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Sounds good. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 01:41, 28 November 2019 (UTC)


### Overall
@Keskkonnakaitse: This article has various issues. In the first half, there are verification issues, neturality and grammar issues. In the second half, there are more instances of verification issues, a little bit more of neturality issues, and additional issues of out of scope information, close paraphrasing, and words to watch. I've noticed that you currently have limited access to Wifi, as stated on your userpage. Therefore, I'll let you decide whether you would like to work on these issues now or not. Otherwise, I can fail this review so you can work on it when you have more free time. I'll keep this on review until you decide. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 04:22, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

@MrLinkinPark333: Hey, I'm back from the wilderness! Thanks for the review, I'll definitely be trying to work through all of these issues. I appreciate your patience in waiting on me to get this going, I'll be working through it in a pretty haphazard way, so let me know if any of my changes still need some work. (edit: I got the bottom of the page done, and started in on some of the concerns from earlier on. I'm working on this while on break at work (oops!) so I should have a bit more done later today, again thanks for all the work you put in combing through this one!) Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:31, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
@MrLinkinPark333: I don't know exactly how this news impacts this GA review, but Valparaiso just voted to drop its men's soccer program, effective immediately (here's the article) Obviously I'll be adding this to the page, and removing any traces of Avery as head coach at Valparaiso. Just a heads-up to you about this, it kinda came out of nowhere!! Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 23:36, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
@Keskkonnakaitse: I'm a bit confused. What leads you to remove any of his history at Valparaiso? Yes, the program will be no more, but it's a part of Avery's career in my opinion. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 03:06, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
@MrLinkinPark333: Sorry, I should have confirmed that a bit more: I'll be changing the lede and the infobox, removing the template at the bottom, and adding some text to the Valparaiso section. Obviously the history will stay, but the page will no longer show him as the current Valpo coach. We'll see how big of a change it turns out to be, but no, all of the information on his time at Valpo will stay. Sorry for the confusion. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 14:45, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
@Keskkonnakaitse: Ahhh okay. No worries. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 15:59, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
Quickly worked through a few more of these issues, I'll be picking up some of the larger ones tomorrow. Thanks again for the patience. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:15, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

@Keskkonnakaitse: Got bit confused until i realized you changed your username. You might want to update the nomination to include your new username. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 02:46, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
@MrLinkinPark333: Finished up the college section and worked few some other scattered issues as well. I also think I correctly updated the nomination to include my new username (at the least I changed it on the article talk page), hopefully I've cleared up that bit of confusion. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:21, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
@MrLinkinPark333: Worked through some more concerns, I've now finished up the senior career section and just have to work on his coaching career. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 17:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
@MrLinkinPark333: Addressed your additional points and worked through more of the coaching career, hopefully I can finish up the last two paragraphs as well later today. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
@Keskkonnakaitse: Alrighty. I'll look through your edits in a little bit and reassess from there. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 20:14, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
@Keskkonnakaitse: As of today, there's only a handful of points left unaddressed at the 2007 - present part. Without this part, three sections are done while personal life and career statistics are almost done. Alternatively, senior career and 1994-1999 coaching career has additional points for discussion. Therefore, I'm willing to keep this on hold for a bit longer. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 02:17, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
@MrLinkinPark333: Not much time to work on this today, I'll be back with more changes tomorrow. Thanks for your patience on this one. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:05, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
@MrLinkinPark333: I'm back with some more work, I think I've addressed or commented on everything but his time at Valparaiso. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 23:51, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

@Keskkonnakaitse: I've commented on Senior career, and coaching career / 1994 - 1999. I'm more concerned with the Valparaiso sections as there's more points to be addressed than the other two sections combined. As this has been 2 weeks since I put this article on hold, I would like to know how long you think would be needed to finish these points up. Usually, I wouldn't be keeping this article on hold for this long. However, as you have limited WIFI per your userpage, it's to be expected. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 00:40, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
@MrLinkinPark333: I don't know if I can confidently predict exactly how long I would need, but (if you can keep it open this long) I know that I would need to be finished by December 14, as I then lose WiFi almost entirely for a week. As of today, I've taken a stab at everything but paragraphs two and four in the Valparaiso section, plus the FOOTY discussion that hasn't received a response. Thanks again for your extreme patience on this review! Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:06, 7 December 2019 (UTC)


### Lead / infobox
Just realized I haven't reviewed these part. There are some issues that need addressing:

His date of birth is not mentioned at all in the following sections per WP:LEAD. This should be mentioned with a source.
Y slight bit of confusion on my end here. I added a source for his birth date in the infobox, but if the DOB also needs to be somewhere else (besides the opening sentence) then where should I include it? I couldn't find anything in MOS:LEAD that spelled that out.
Per MOS:LEADREL with the "Significant information" sentence. However, the following sentence in that paragraph has DOBs one of the "exceptions". I always thought that everything in the lead must be covered elsewhere, and wasn't aware of exceptions. In this case, a citation in the infobox is good. Up to you if you want to repeat the info or not in the opening sentence with his place of birth. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 04:12, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
 Done, I'll throw it in there, don't think it can hurt to include it in the prose. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 18:19, 8 December 2019 (UTC) Resolved
I see you added info about him playing soccer during his childhood, but it doesn't have his date of birth. Therefore, since you added it to the paragrpah, the citation would need to be added too. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 19:41, 8 December 2019 (UTC)Y
 Done, yeah, I found that article while looking for information in the Valparaiso paragraphs. Moved around a reference to cover the date and place of birth. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 23:39, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
While the cited quotes in the refs do mention he was a midfielder / forward, there isn't any mention in the prose. Resolved
 Done, added to the first sentence as WP:FOOTY specifies.
"won four Golden State Athletic Conference titles during his time at the school" - i only see three mentioned in the college paragraph (none for 1989).Y
Y the fourth is shown in the Honors section, should I also add in a quick mention to the prose?
Yes please. Otherwise, it sounds incomplete. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 04:12, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
 Done, in the College section the sentence now reads"...with the Warriors winning another GSAC title and making a run to the semifinals of the NAIA Tournament." Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 18:19, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
"with the Warriors winning another GSAC title" - source needed for this part. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 19:41, 8 December 2019 (UTC)Y
 Done, added the Awards and Honors source. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 23:39, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
"Avery went into coaching upon his retirement" - no mention of retirement in the article nor source.
 Done, would it work to say "Avery went into coaching after he stopped playing..."?
Not really, as the sources don't specify he stopped playing. I suggest swapping it for the year he started coaching for Bethel, as it was the start of his head coach career. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 18:41, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
"He spent three years as the director of soccer at Cal State San Bernardino...at Notre Dame and Louisville." - two sentences please  Resolved
 Done, changed along with the below issue.
"before spending seven years as a NCAA Division I assistant at Notre Dame and Louisville" - this sounds like he was a assistant coach at both colleges for seven years, which isn't the case. A bit of clarification is needed. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 02:24, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 Done, rejigged the sentence to read "Avery was then a NCAA Division I assistant for the next seven years, spending six years at Notre Dame and one at Louisville." Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 00:17, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
Perfect!  Resolved --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 04:12, 8 December 2019 (UTC)


### Update
@Keskkonnakaitse: Oops! I didn't realize you went to all of these points. My bad :/ Here's an overall recap of what's left to be done, alongside new issues after your additional prose.

Previous issues:
I think it’d be better to remove “Division 2” for Askims 2 part as there isn’t a source that connects Avery playing in that Division then. The team name itself is fine. Note: see next point
 Done, the relevant phrase now reads "Avery moved to Sweden and appeared with Askims IK."
Looks good! Now, you don't need the Laget.se source as it's not backing up any part of the sentence. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 18:25, 4 January 2020 (UTC)Y
Stating that Avery began his CSUSB position in 1997 is better as it skips over the issue of when in 1997 he was hired.Y
 Done, changed the sentence to read "In 1997, Avery was hired as the director of soccer at California State University, San Bernardino."
For increasing the roster, I don’t think comparing 2006 roster to 2007 would work, as the Valpo source only mentions adding 18 men to the roster. Similarly, the math *ouldn’t work.Y
 Done, removed that part entirely. In the grand scheme of the article, I don't think this little detail isn't important enough to try to keep if the sourcing is questionable.
Fair enough. Sometimes the sourcing doesn't work out :) --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 18:25, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
For his fundraiser, I think the mile average and mileage donation is too much detail. The first sentence summary seems suitable enough.Y
 Done, removed the second sentence.
New issues:
The NSCAA votes and beating Michigan State were the same week (12th vs. 16th).Y
 Done, thanks for the catch on that one, changed the sentence to begin "That mark came the same week that..."
New source for the third place in the 2018 MVC needed, source is from 2007. Note: see next pointY
 Done, replaced with a better source. (The information can be found in the "Tournament Seeding" section, I could add that part in as a quote if necessary.)
Your new source states that the MVC had just started, and doesn't have Valpo third place finish/highest conference finish since joining conference. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 18:25, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
“The 2–1 defeat would turn out to be the final match in program history. One week later, the university discontinued the men's soccer program, overriding the protests of former and current player” – I’d suggest rephrasing “would turn out” to “was” for neutrality. For the 2nd part, I’d suggest removing the “overriding the protests…” part for neutrality as well as this is article is about Avery, not the school (even though it is surprising).Y
 Done, addressed both issues.
“and led the program to nine of the 10 best defensive seasons in Crusader history.” – not verified as this source cited is from 2007.Y
 Done, oops, I used the wrong link there. Changed to his Valparaiso profile, which backs up that part in the second paragraph.
--MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 03:49, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

@MrLinkinPark333: Hey, I'm finally back! Thanks for condensing all the remaining issues down into this section, it certainly made it a wee bit easier to find everything that was still problematic!! I've taken a stab at everything you raised in the update, let me know if any of these changes require some more tinkering. Thanks again for your extreme patience on this review!! --Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 05:10, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
@Keskkonnakaitse: Hello! Only a few points left: a removal of a source (Division 2), a new source needed (MVC 2018), and a prose change (year he entered head coaching in the lead). Also, I suggest tweaking the end dates for career statistics to match the sources for now, as there was no reply to your WP:FOOTY talk page discussion. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 18:25, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
@MrLinkinPark333: To quickly summarize: I've removed the Division 2 source, added the MVC men's soccer media guide as a source (pages 16 and 20 are the most pertinent for your concern), changed the prose in the lede, and tweaked the end dates as per your suggestion. Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 01:48, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
@Keskkonnakaitse: Okay, with the 2019 MVC guide "in the MVC in the regular season; it marked" needs tweaking. the part before the semicolon needs a tweak for grammar and "marked" could be reworded as it's an unique word. Also, that MVC quote is from page 11 (see bottom of the page) but the page number won't effect the GA. Rest is A-ok! --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 02:04, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
@MrLinkinPark333: I changed that sentence to read "...in the MVC regular season; it was the highest conference finish..." and corrected the page numbers (didn't even notice the number on the bottom, oops!) Will that change work on your end? Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 02:32, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
@Keskkonnakaitse: Yep. You're all set. Well done! --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 02:52, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
@MrLinkinPark333: Whoooooo!! One last time, thank you for your patience in this entire process, I appreciate all your work to move me through this review!!! Keskkonnakaitse (talk) 03:20, 7 January 2020 (UTC)