# Talk:Kerry Bog Pony

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://kerrybogpony.ie/contents/page.php?v=19&u=breed-standard. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you.  Dana boomer (talk) 14:18, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

This bit from the Animal Genetics article is highly relevant and probably can be used as one of the "DNA studies" for sure:  "Most striking was the observation that only a few of the KB sequences belonged to the common European haplo- group D (Europe: 35%; KB Pony: 13%), and a high pro- portion were within haplogroup E (31%). Haplogroup E is rare globally and no other population analysed to date has been so highly represented herein (McGahern et al. 2006). Within all published horse data, haplogroup E contains 29 of 844 mtDNA sequences of which 66% are from popula- tions in the British Isles (12 KB pony, six Shetland and one Thoroughbred). Haplogroup E also contains one Icelandic pony and two Cheju mtDNA sequences. Fisher exact tests of independence for haplogroup E concordance with British and European pony populations were both significant (P < 0.0001). Therefore, this haplogroup has a propensity to contain a high frequency of mtDNA sequences from small ponies distributed principally on the western fringe of Europe."

Translation (and proposed edit): DNA studies suggest that the Kerry Bog Pony is not closely related to the other two native Irish breeds, the Irish Draught and the Connemara pony. It has a rare haplogroup that is more closely related to other small horse breeds found in western Europe, including the Shetland pony and Icelandic horse.
Conclusion:  Toss that in with the citation if you want, re-edit as you see fit. (Haven't found any ref to Welsh ponies yet) But it is a stronger source for the stuff on DNA that's there.  Montanabw(talk) 22:27, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
Next: Found full text pdf of the Animal (2012), 6:1 article here. It focuses on the roots of Canadian breeds, so the other stuff is mentioned in passing Some relevant quotes:

"The Mountian and Moorland breeds originated from the British Isles and include the Connemara, Dale, Dartmoor, Eris- kay, Exmoor, Fell, Highland, Kerry Bog, New Forest, Shetland and Welsh. The Nordic breeds also include the Shetland along with the Norwegian Fjord and Icelandic." (19)
But then this source says that the Kerry Bog is related to the Dartmoor and Exmoor (not Shetlands and Icelandics- confusing), and clearly NOT the Welsh or Connemara (that much consistent) though possibly they crossbred some later on:  "Within the Mountain and Moorland groups, several breeds also consistently shared several similarities among the phylogenetic trees. Specifically, the Dartmoor and Exmoor breeds paired together and appear to share common ancestry with the Kerry Bog ponies... the Welsh and Connemara breeds also consistently paired together with great confidence, supporting previously published data, and share common ancestry with New Forest breed...the New Forest, Highland, Fell, Dale, Haflinger, Welsh and Kerry Bog populations, which also shared admixture among each other." (23)
"...most notably the New Forest and Kerry Bog, still did not form their own individual clusters but rather appeared to be a mixture of breeds ... The Kerry Bog pony suffered a severe herd reduction to only 20 animals in the 1990s, and as a result the breed was also likely crossed with other Mountain and Moorland breeds in order to conserve the population (McGahern et al., 2006)." (27)
I'll admit that the numbers are mostly gibberish to me, but the obvious conclusion is that the breed is low in numbers and inbreeding is a risk. I suspect the differences between the two studies are perhaps because there are so few ponies and they may have been outcrossed with different breeds... I think the first article mostly looked at Mitochondrial DNA, which comes from only the female line, the other probably was stallions and mares... My guess is that we have a bit of romantic speculation mixed with a low population. However, these sources seem to agree that they aren't related to Connemaras, anyway. Montanabw(talk) 23:16, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

OK, I've added this in to the Characteristics section, replacing the info on DNA studies that was already there. In doing so, I was able to remove two references to the breed organization, which should also help alleviate concerns there. Used some of your wording and created some of my own... Maybe check and see that I didn't screw anything up? Dana boomer (talk) 16:01, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
I think it looks good.  Nice work!  Montanabw(talk) 21:25, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Just wondering, seeing as how this is GA and not FA, would it work to use the photo of the stallion with the pack saddle as the lead, instead of the foal (maybe swap positions) I know the foal is looking left, but the stallion is at least standing with his head turned and could be considered "looking" into the article if he were the lead image; he so much nicer an example of the breed.  I don't have real strong feelings, just think it's a more representative animal.  Thoughts?  21:24, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

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