# Talk:John A. Hilger

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This review is transcluded from Talk:John A. Hilger/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Zawed (talk · contribs) 06:39, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
I'll review this one, comments to follow in next few days. Zawed (talk) 06:39, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Will make updates to the article for GA based on your comments following review. Toadboy123 (talk) 10:50, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
Having looked at this, I am concerned that it is a little way from being ready for GA (I suspect that this is why it took as long as it did to get reviewed). Some initial comments:

The lead should be expanded to be more of a summary of the overall article.
No need for the cite in the lead; as it should be a summary, everything mentioned here should already be cited in the body of the article.
Not all the commands listed in the infobox are mentioned in the article.
I don't believe that "Children of the Doolittle Raiders" is a reliable/independent source. Fortunately, it is only used a few times so hopefully will be easily replaced.
Ranks should not be capitalised if not part of the subject's title, i.e. "Captain Hilger" is OK, "Hilger was a captain" is also OK.
In terms of dates, once the year is established
The heading hierarchy seems off to me. Suggest integrating the first part of his military career into the early life section then using World War II as the major heading. At that point mention the anti-submarine patrols that was his major operational work. Also, what kind of aircraft was he flying at this stage? Instead the "post raid" heading, I suggest "Later war service". The Cold War heading should be the same hierarchy as the World War II heading. (I hope that this makes sense; it does in my mind, but my wife says nothing I say makes sense...)
Don't use laudatory language e.g. for the famous "Doolittle Raid",
The last part of the final sentence of the Cold War section is uncited.
Suggest integrating the information in the Personal life section with the remaining sections so that it is all chronological. I have seen the current format used elsewhere and have always found it jarring.
The bullet pointed material in the Awards section should be integrated into the later life section.
Note 1 is uncited.
Nelson is listed in the Bibliography section but is not actually cited; move it to a "Further reading" section.
The caption for the image of Hilger and his B-25 crew is quite wordy; suggest deleting the ranks/names of the crew
I will do a more detailed review of the prose once the above is attended to. There is a bit of revision work here and I wonder if it may be better for me to fail the review for now so you can attend to the necessary remedial edits, and then renominate it. I am happy to work with you outside of the GA process to achieve this but wouldn't be able to be the reviewer for the renomination. Let me know either way how you want to proceed. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 01:11, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

I have made most the edits to the articles based on the suggestions you have made above following the review. I hope you can review the article and if possible make any more minor edits to ensure that it will attain GA article status. Toadboy123 (talk) 03:05, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Some points haven't been dealt with well - I expanded the lead some more so that the second paragraph is a summary of the entire article and have made a few edits elsewhere in addition.
There is still one cite to the Children of the Doolittle Raiders.
Note 1 is still uncited.
You have him as flying cadet in the Air Corps twice, and same for second lieutenant.
I will go through the prose soon, but at this stage, the only thing that really stands out is the placement of the paragraph dealing with his deceased brother. I would probably have this at the end of the section. Zawed (talk) 07:51, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
I have made the modifications as per your second and third points. Toadboy123 (talk) 08:55, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Also completed the first and final suggestions made by you, for the article. Toadboy123 (talk) 12:47, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
Circling back to this for a belated prose review/final look.
Lead

a United States Air Force general and deputy commander of the Doolittle Raid...: the structure here implies that he was a general at the time of the Doolittle Raid and during WWII, when in fact it looks as though he didn't reach general rank until well in the 1950s. I suggest replacing the term general with officer.
link Lieutenant Colonel
Early life

Despite leaving from his studies in 1929...: "leaving from" doesn't sound right, perhaps replace with "abandoning" so long as that doesn't hew to close to the source (or just "leaving")
link bachelor of science, adjutant, captain, major, Washington
in October 1939. In May 1940, Hilger was transferred to McChord Field, Washington,...: awkward sentence construction here, with two dates mentioned back to back. Suggest "in October 1939. Hilger was transferred to McChord Field, Washington, in May 1940,...
World War II

Is it known why Doolittle selected Hilger for the role of deputy commander? I would assume it would be because of his B-25 experience but perhaps the two also knew each other from previous assignments. While not essential for GA status, it would be nice to have a mention of some sort of connection.
Can we also have a one-liner as to the motivation for the Doolittle Raid. E.g. "The mission was intended to be a retaliatory response to the attack at Pearl Harbor" or similar.
link Lieutenant Colonel, colonel, Ensign, Orlando
Running low on fuel due to the early launch of the raid...: no antecedence for the fact the launch was made early. Perhaps integrate into the sentence beginning "On April 18, 1942...", something along the lines of "...took off from the Hornet earlier than planned due to fears the Hornet had been detected by the Japanese, and reached Nagoya in Japan.
delink China; generally not necessary to link countries
link 344th Bomb Group (here and in infobox), even if it is a redlink
Pipelink "Kunming, China" so that China is not linked.
Following his return to the U.S,: should be "Following his return to the United States," for consistency with first mention of country
During the last 18 months of World War II,...: firstly, combine this with the previous paragraph; as it stands it is too short to be a standalone paragraph. Secondly, I think it would read better if "During" was replaced with "For". Thirdly, given the end date of his previous appointment, the war only lasted for 12 more months, not 18.
...brother Lt. Ted Hilger served...: write rank out in full
Cold War

in B-29 Superfortresses during the war.: the "during the war" is a bit redundant given earlier mention of the Korean War
Pipelinl "Sinuiju, North Korea" so that North Korea is not linked. Ditto "Oslo, Norway"
666 yards: add a conversion template for meters
link: Air Force Operational Test Center, Air Proving Ground Command, Eglin Air Force Base
There are a couple of single sentence paragraphs in this section, integrate them with the others but watch out for dates appearing to next other (at the end/start of successive sentences)
References

The date of publication format for cite 4 should be made consistent with the format used for other dates in this section. Also the name of the article should be rendered in title case, which seems to be the style used for the other citations
I made made a few tweaks to the text here and there, check you are happy with the changes. Apologies for taking so long here. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 05:05, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

One final thing I just spotted, his nickname is presently uncited and needs to be worked into the text somewhere. Zawed (talk) 05:07, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
I have made edits based on the most recent suggestions you made right now. Toadboy123 (talk) 08:59, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
Reviewing the changes, several issues weren't enacted or missed altogther. I've gone ahead and dealt with them myself for sake of wrapping this review up. Passing as GA as I believe the article meets the necessary criteria. Zawed (talk) 09:26, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
Thanks a million! Toadboy123 (talk) 11:39, 10 March 2023 (UTC)


### John A. Hilger
This review is transcluded from Talk:John A. Hilger/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Sturmvogel 66 (talk · contribs) 12:31, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I'll get to this shortly--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 12:31, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Images properly licensed
Don't open with his rank; start with just his name.
I would suggest modelling this article on FA-quality general officer aviators like Frank Bladin, especially in coverage and structure of the lede.
Delete the names of the other crewmembers from the photo of the Doolittle raiders and just tell the reader which one Hilger is.
More information is needed on why Doolittle picked Hilger.
There are lots of issues with close paraphrasing remaining, particularly with the Handbook of Texas article, although some of that is because there are only so many ways that you can say that he served in this post or did that job. Nonetheless, you need to put this article in your own voice.
There's some redundant info that needs to be deleted, particularly in the early life section where you tell the reader which year he graduated from high school twice, mirroring the entry in the Handbook of Texas.
I'm going to give you a week to start reworking the article and will put the article on hold until then. If you cannot start work before then, I'll fail the article and you can work on it at your leisure before renominating it.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:17, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
I have made some updated to the article based on your suggestions:
All images are licensed properly (PD-USAF).
Updated introduction by removing rank and starting with his name.
I updated the article structure based on the article you mentioned.
I have updated the bomber crew images by deleting other crew members names and only adding Hilger in it.
Regarding the information on why Doolittle chose Hilger, I can't find detailed information from sources regarding Doolittle Raid. But in the book by Woodall, it stated that Hilger was chosen as deputy commander after being nominated by his AAF bomb group commander, due to him being a 'no-nonsense individual', which I paraphrased.
Regarding the paraphrasing issues from Handbook of Texas, I modified the paragraphs with similarity from the content in the Handbook, with the help of Earwig tool.
The redundant info in 'Early life' section deleted. If there are more, you could suggest to me and I will edit it in a given time.
Toadboy123 (talk) 04:27, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
Better, but still needs more work.
Forex, the opening sentence comes directly from the Handbook. Look more closely at the info contained in the lede of the Frank Bladin article and how it's structured as a summary of the article. That should be your model. There's a lot of the excessive detail from the lede here that needs to be deleted. Forex, you should tell the reader what school he graduated from and when, but don't tell what his major was until the main body. See WP:SUMMARYSTYLE if you need general guidance on what should be included.
The lede should be roughly chronological and you shouldn't mention the Doolittle raid in the opening sentence.
You got the date of his commissioning in the Air Corps wrong.
Rework the lede and we'll proceed from there.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:08, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
I have updated the lede based on the article you mentioned and the second set of suggestions you made. Let me know of any more updates have to be made for the article. Toadboy123 (talk) 02:27, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
Sorry to take so long to get back to this.
The lede looks pretty good, although you need to give a rough time for when he was commanding the 89th.
Combine the first two sentences of the first para in the early life section
Open the next para with "Later that year,"
Combine the first two sentences of the second para by changing the "however" to but
We don't know for sure that he had to drop out for money problems, so add a "probably" and change fiscal constraints to a simpler phrase
Link the BS degree, mechanical engineering, adjutant
Use the name US Army Reserve with a link. You need to clarify that he branched infantry in the USAR. This is one place it's OK to close paraphrase because there aren't many viable alternatives.
Fold the 3rd and 4th paragraphs together since they both cover his early military career
More later--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
@Sturmvogel 66 Hi. Sorry for the late response to your message. I have made edits to article as per the recent updates you made. Toadboy123 (talk) 08:52, 02 October 2023 (UTC)
I've trimmed the text some to eliminate extraneous details; feel free to revert.
I'm not seeing anything about Hilger's service from Nov '43 to Sept '44 in the AF biography. What's the source, Woodall? In fact it contradicts the AF biography which says that he was on Nimitz's staff for the last 18 months of the war.
The first para of the Cold War section is almost a direct quote from the AF bio and needs to be revised or quoted directly. This is true of most of the rest of the article. Do your best to rephrase all the duty assignments. But stuff like the second sentence of the Later life section is lifted directly from sources and needs to be rewritten.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 11:14, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
@Sturmvogel 66: I have made the edits as you stated. Regarding the 'rephrase all the duty assignments', am I supposed to rephrase the duty assignements to avoid similtairty with AF bio. I have rephrased and edited the 'Cold War' section? Toadboy123 (talk) 12:58, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
Yes--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 13:15, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
@Sturmvogel 66: I have paraphased the 'Early life' section which contains the bulk of the information of his military assignments. Let me know how is it and any if any further edits have to be made. Toadboy123 (talk) 09:28, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
@Sturmvogel 66 and Toadboy123: where does this review stand? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 01:55, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
@AirshipJungleman29: I have made necessary edits from my side including paraphrasing. Waiting for reviewer to give any further suggestions before the article can be considered GA . Toadboy123 (talk) 07:57, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
I have left some messages on Sturmvogel 66's talk page encouraging them to complete this.  Let's see if that has any effect. RoySmith (talk) 15:09, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
Apologies, I had misread your comments as only applying to the early part of his career. Your changes are now sufficiently different from the sources that I'm comfortable promoting it.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:17, 14 December 2023 (UTC)