# Talk:Leonard's Bakery

czar ⨹ 22:12, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Leonard's Bakery/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Viriditas (talk · contribs) 00:46, 11 May 2015 (UTC)


### Criteria
### Review
Well-written:

Verifiable with no original research:

Broad in its coverage:

Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.

Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:


#### Result
#### Discussion
@Czar: Viriditas (talk) 03:03, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Infobox
The "County" parameter in the infobox says "Oahu", which hasn't been true since 1907.  I realize it is linked correctly but shouldn't it say "City and County of Honolulu" or "Honolulu County"? Viriditas (talk) 02:54, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Lead, Background and history
This article uses the phrase "continental United States" twice.  For various reasons outlined in several different articles, including mainland and Contiguous United States#Hawaii, Hawaii doesn't use that term and prefers to use mainland United States.  This is especially true for the Hawaii food print literature which uses the term "mainland" exclusively. Using the phrase "continental United States" in an article deeply connected to the culture of Hawaii, is like using the horrendous term "Frisco" in an article about the San Francisco Bay Area.  It's generally discouraged and lacks authenticity. Viriditas (talk) 01:21, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the heads up. Fixed this and the others. czar ⨹ 03:22, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Leonard's Bakery is a Portuguese bakery in Honolulu, Hawaii, known for popularizing the malasada Portuguese doughnut.
Calling the malasada a "Portuguese" doughnut is superfluous here for several reasons.  Simply call it a "malasada doughnut".  It's unnecessary to call it Portuguese here because 1) you've introduced the bakery as Portuguese, and 2) you subsequently explain that Portuguese immigrants brought the doughnut to Hawaii.  So it's both adequately explained in the context of the type of bakery and in regards to its origin all in the first paragraph without having to specify the doughnut as Portuguese for a third time. Viriditas (talk) 20:34, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Background and history
Margaret and Frank Leonard Rego Sr. opened Leonard's Bakery in 1952 when his mother encouraged him to sell malasadas, a Portuguese doughnut with no hole, a "crispier" outside, and a "chewier" inside.
"His mother" reads awfully strange here.  I expected to read "Frank's mother" in this context, even though last names are generally preferred. But you are referring to a couple, so I think "Frank" would work here. If you have another way of rewriting it, please do so. Viriditas (talk) 23:11, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Though Portuguese immigrants had brought the dessert to the Hawaiian islands in the turn of the 20th century when they arrived to work in the fields, Leonard's is known for popularizing it.
No need for "had".  I think "work in the fields" should be changed to "work on the plantations". Viriditas (talk) 23:11, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
In 2012, the Honolulu Star-Advertiser reported that the bakery sold over 15,000 malasadas daily, or over 160 million since its opening.
I'm not sure why this appears in the middle of the paragraph.  Perhaps it should be moved to the end of the paragraph or somewhere else appropriate? Keep in mind a narrative, structured however you want, but logical. Viriditas (talk) 23:25, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
✓ done czar ⨹ 23:53, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
The plain malasadas are coated with white sugar, but the bakery sells variations garnished with cinnamon or filled with haupia, custard, or chocolate pudding. The bakery sells anthropomorphized malasada stuffed animals and other malasada-related items. The "old-fashioned, plain-Jane bakery"[5] also sells coffee cakes, sweet bread, and pão doce meat wraps.
I recommend restructuring this as it reads as if it is backwards.  Walk the reader through the bakery, from the general to the particular (by order of importance) starting with:
1. Description: Old-fashioned, plain Jane bakery
2  Primary product: malasadas, variations
3. Secondary product:  coffee cakes, sweet bread, and pão doce meat wraps
4. Promotional items: stuffed animals, etc.
That's the logical order I expect as a reader.  However, for some reason, you've got the following order:
1.  Primary product: malasadas, variations
2.  Description: Old-fashioned, plain Jane bakery
3.  Promotional items: stuffed animals, etc.
4.  Secondary product:  coffee cakes, sweet bread, and pão doce meat wraps
That doesn't make much sense to me. Viriditas (talk) 04:07, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
Another way of looking at it is that the bakery is primarily known for malasadas even before its secondary description as a "plain Jane bakery", so its malasada business is described in detail (its origins, its variations, its promotional items) before mentioning that the bakery also does other/secondary/"plain Jane bakery" stuff. That's the logic. While I appreciate the detailed prose review, I don't think this is going to trip the reader up, though I added some helper words anyway. Everything else should be resolved, if you'll take a look czar ⨹ 08:54, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
I see your point about giving the malasadas a certain primacy over the other subtopics. That's an interesting approach and I think the helper words actually did the job. Good work. Viriditas (talk) 20:55, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
As of 2011, the bakery is owned by Leonard Rego Jr., where he incorporates his children into the bakery in the same fashion as his parents did to him.
I get what you are trying to say, but that's a really clumsy paraphrase.  The wording ("incorporates his children into the bakery") makes me think of Hansel and Gretel, and that's not good. :-( Viriditas (talk) 04:00, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
In December 2008, Rego Jr. opened a franchise location in Japan's Yokohama World Quarter Shopping Center. The location only sells cinnamon and sugar malasadas and beverages, though they expected to add malasadas with fillings to the menu...Rego Jr. intends to open more franchised locations in Japan and on the other islands of Hawaii
That source is dated 2009. If there's no update to the expectations of their menu changes within the last six years, then I recommend modifying the wording so that it has more encyclopedic longevity.  Saying that they "expected to add malasadas with fillings" to their menu or "Rego Jr. intends to open more franchised locations in Japan and on the other islands of Hawaii'" in 2009 while reading it in 2015 is a form of WP:RECENTISM.  That essay has recommendations for how to fix the language for a more balanced and historical perspective. Viriditas (talk) 21:19, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
The current menu shows custard filled[3]. Would this be a valid citation? I can't read Japanese, unfortunately. Brianhe (talk) 21:57, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
Whatever removes the recentism and replaces it with historical, encyclopedic language works for me. What they expected and intended to do in 2009 should be rewritten for longevity. Viriditas (talk) 22:05, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
Edit made to fix recentism. Brianhe (talk) 22:49, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
@Brianhe: good work, but you missed the last part: "Rego Jr. intends to open more franchised locations in Japan and on the other islands of Hawaii."  That's from 2009.  Look at the source again to see if you can reword it for historical longevity or remove it. Viriditas (talk) 03:17, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
You're right, I missed it. Seems the best thing to do was to strike the sentence. 6 year old expansion plans aren't really necessary here. — Brianhe (talk) 03:20, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
External links
The MSN recipe link is a recipe for malasadas.  How is it connected to Leonard's Bakery?  The title of that page indicates to me at least that this is a recipe for malasadas in the tradition of Leonard's Bakery.  In my eyes, this is a bit spammy.  I realize that the GAR doesn't evaluate external links, but one could also conceivably argue that this runs afoul of criterion 2b and 3b.  I don't have strong feelings about it, however, the MSN site page does appear to be using a trademarked name to promote a recipe which opens another can of worms.  Of course, if it can be demonstrated that Leonard's is connected to this MSN page in an official capacity, then the problem is solved. Viriditas (talk) 03:17, 11 May 2015 (UTC)


### Additional notes
This isn't really a big deal, but a change suggested by the GAR was to change from the wording "continental United States" to "mainland United States". This seems stilted to me. As a native English speaker, I don't think I have ever heard this phrase. Maybe the phrase is common in Hawaii, but this Wikipedia is not written in Hawaiian English and should reflect the more widely used phrasing (data: 6,990,000 vs 158,000 ghits). Seems to me in fact they'd be likely to use another phrase in Hawaii anyway. In my experience Hawaiians colloquially say "off-island" like Alaskans say "in the States". — Brianhe (talk) 18:22, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I strongly disagree.  There's nothing "stilted" about it.  I've been in Hawaii for only 14 years, and they certainly don't say "off-island" as much as they do Mainland.  Please read that article to see why there's a problem with using "continental".  Accordingly, "The word "mainland" occurs numerous times in Hawaiian law, and apparently refers to any part of the United States outside of Hawaii."  This is an article about a bakery in Hawaii, not a bakery in New York.  When Hawaii establishments (and our best food sources about Hawaii food) refer to the rest of the country, they use the term "mainland" and our article should reflect that.  You are assuming that the term "continental" is the only correct and appropriate term, and that assumption is manifestly false. Viriditas (talk) 21:59, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
I don't think it's a big deal either way, but it's easy enough to change a word to make someone happy. I'll add, though, that WP is not a reliable source in itself. The two WP articles used to show how Hawaiians use the phrase are unreferenced in their illuminative parts, which should be deleted from their articles as original research unless supported by a reliable, secondary source. czar ⨹ 14:20, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
That's not original research nor is it how the term is used.  I suggest you take a look-see at Google Books, Google Scholar and any scholarly search index of your liking. The term "mainland" United States is the predominant term.  Original research refers to something that can't be sourced. Viriditas (talk) 18:17, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm referring to For various reasons outlined in several different articles, including mainland and Contiguous United States#Hawaii, Those articles do not have references in the parts that you mention (otherwise they'll be deleted as original research). I am not interested in disputing the continental vs. mainland issue, just pointing out the parts that need referencing, if you're able and willing. – czar 19:04, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
Again, just because something is not explicitly cited does not mean it is original research. Which of these facts are you challenging?
1. Hawaii became the 50th state of the United States on August 21, 1959.
2. It is the southernmost and so far, the latest state to join the Union.
3. Not part of any continent, Hawaii is located in the Pacific Ocean, about 2,200 miles (3,500 km) from North America and almost halfway to Asia.
4. In Hawaii and overseas American territories, for instance, the terms the Mainland or U.S. Mainland are often used to refer to the continental United States.
5. The word "mainland" occurs numerous times in Hawaiian law, and apparently refers to any part of the United States outside of Hawaii.
I suspect that you aren't seriously challenging any of them. Viriditas (talk) 04:59, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
I've added some refs, however, while the ref I added supports my contention, it also says the following: 

Although the term 'mainland' is still widely used in Hawai'i to refer to the continental United States, many Hawaiian activists and scholars prefer the term "continent" because the "mainland" implies a position of privilege (or at least 'continent centeredness') and hence domination.  As one writer stated, 'For me, Hawai'i is the "main land"!'  However, in this article, I use 'mainland' (rather than 'continent') because outside of Hawai'i, readers sometimes misinterpret "the continent" as meaning Europe'."[4]
I don't agree with this author, but it is at least one good reason to change it back to "continental United States", which I am doing now. Viriditas (talk) 06:16, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

{{Did you know nominations/Leonard's Bakery}} czar ⨹ 14:20, 13 May 2015 (UTC)