# Talk:Jewish dairy restaurant


### Sniff test and CLOP
The DYK posting generated some discussion at WP:ERRORS.  That did not fully resolve on the day and so is copied here, for the record, in case UndercoverClassicist or others have more to say. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:23, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

... that Leon Trotsky frequented a Jewish dairy restaurant in the Bronx but refused to tip, and the waiters retaliated by spilling hot soup on him?.
In the article, this is presented less strongly, as "according to one story...". Given that Trotsky only spent a few months in the Bronx, and the overall story doesn't do great on a general "sniff test", I don't think it can be presented as hard fact in the DYK hook. Rubenstein places quote marks around the anecdote, but I can't see any citation. The ultimate source seems to be the cited Esquire article. We also have a possible CLOP issue here: the article has Trotsky refused to tip after eating as a matter of principle, insisting that "tipping was demeaning to the dignity of a workingman, and that a person should get a regular salary, enough to live on, and not have to depend on tips". For the same reason, he tried to persuade other customers to refuse to tip as well, while the Rubenstein source has As a matter of principle, he refused to leave a tip himself and would harangue other customers to do the same, with the quote elsewhere in the paragraph.. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:24, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

The Esquire article has an extensive account of the matter and that's because the author's father was a waiter at the restaurant.  Such stories have to start somewhere and we have a fairly plausible chain of sources in this case.  The anecdote has been repeated in numerous reputable sources such as the journal of the New York State Historical Association and none of them seem to doubt it.  Many other famous people were opposed to tipping at this time and it was quite a political issue – see When Tipping Was Considered Deeply Un-American – so laws were passed against it in several states.  So Trotsky would have been just following an existing political trend.
As another bit of background, note that Gratuity#Russia says "During the Soviet era, and especially with the Stalinist reforms of the 1930s, tipping was discouraged and was considered an offensive capitalist tradition aimed at belittling and lowering the status of the working class."  That's not sourced but it seems quite consistent.
So, there's no particular reason to doubt this.  An unsupported "sniff test" isn't adequate reason to mess with it.
Andrew🐉(talk) 21:16, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
I agree with Andrew Davidson that there's no good reason to doubt the story given its appearance in Giffin as well. FWIW, regarding CLOP, the bolded text about the principle was added recently by an anonymous editor after the article was already on the main page: [3] as I had left that out in the original draft, and I'm not sure if it is needed. However, I do not think that this paraphrase is too close, as "a matter of principle" is a common everyday English idiom, and I think "persuade other customers to refuse to tip as well," is a suitable paraphrase of "would harangue other customers to do the same." Andre🚐 00:32, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I've often heard of these referred to as "Kosher dairy restaurants" though I'm not sure what term is more common. Some places refer to themselves that way; a lot of the sources reference the fact that they're Jewish, and call them "dairy restaurants" but I don't see the full term popping up in many sources; thoughts? Tduk (talk) 14:15, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

They are synonyms Andre🚐 14:19, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Oh, I guess I was unclear. I was wondering if one or the other was a more sensible title for this page; it's a minor point I just thought I'd mention it. I'm not sure myself. Tduk (talk) 14:56, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Ah, yeah, neither is wrong, and "kosher dairy restaurant" might be slightly more common in extant places' names, but there seem to be more occurrences of "Jewish dairy restaurant" in the books and articles, so I slightly prefer that. Andre🚐 15:13, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
That was what I suspected - are there other kinds of dairy restaurants? Tduk (talk) 15:15, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
There are, although "dairy restaurant" at this point is usually referring to this kind. But at least one "dairy restaurant" is more like an ice cream shop Andre🚐 15:19, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
I guess that might be another option for the title. I guess I'm wondering if they are called Jewish Dairy Restaurants, or called Dairy Restaurants and are Jewish, do you see what I'm getting at? (I note that B&H has a sign calling it "kosher dairy vegetarian restaurant" which seems more like adjectives than a formal type)... Tduk (talk) 15:36, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, just "dairy restaurant" wouldn't be a bad title since nothing else is there at the moment. But "Jewish dairy restaurant" is a valid construction much like "Jewish deli." Andre🚐 15:43, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Would Category:Jewish dairy restaurants be helpful? ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:35, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Pretty much the same as Category:Milchig restaurants I think Andre🚐 21:24, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
OK! ---Another Believer (Talk) 11:30, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi. I just changed the short description and lead sentence to omit "vegetarian" because these restaurants frequently offer fish. Vegetarian usually means no fish. Also, in kosher discourse, milchig (dairy kosher) food always includes fish. ProfGray (talk) 05:00, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to restore with a link to Lacto-ovo vegetarian/pescatarianism. They are a more specific type that is distinct from the garden variety vegetarianism. Andre🚐 05:03, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Let's look at how these restaurants are commonly described in the sources. I don't know the answer. But based on my experience, they don't advertise as vegetarian, unless they are. Some are vegan, some vegetarian, and many are lacto-ovo. They can be any of those, so it'd be inaccurate to define them up front as just one. ProfGray (talk) 05:13, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
They do actually advertise as vegetarian, as is extensively discussed in the sources, and they have an important defining characteristic of being vegetarian and connected to vegetarianism, as discussed in the sources. I don't know of any that are vegan... but I suppose in the modern day, that's possible. They are generally ovo-lacto as they almost all serve eggs, and obviously all serve milk. I don't know what a vegan dairy restaurant serves. Oat milk? Anyway, it's not inaccurate, it's defining, take a look at the sources, because I wrote this article and I did. Andre🚐 05:16, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Well, I don't have a copy of the book, which looks wonderful. But the g-book search shows numerous references in the book to fish, herring, sturgeon, lox, etc. The article itself mentions gefilte fish and eggs. I'm sure that many kosher dairy restaurants advertise as vegetarian, but not all do. Does the author define them as vegetarian? If so, that's an error that the article can avoid or omit.
For info on vegan, see this webpage of the OU, which has a vegan-kosher partner. https://oukosher.org/product/kosher-vegan/ Otherwise, some are ovo-lacto and some include fish. "Dairy" or milchig is agnostic toward the three options (vegan, ovo-lacto, fish). ProfGray (talk) 05:47, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Things might be a bit different on the modern kosher restaurant front, and feel free to expand the article though I do not think the OU site is a good enough source, but the dairy restaurant is mostly a turn of the century and pre-war thing that slowly faded through the late 20th century. The point is that vegetarianism is connected to them and it has a different meaning in this context, the philosophy is connected to them, and they were often called that even if inaccurately; the modern obsession with neat rules about what is or isn't a certain type of diet wasn't in play as much, and in the Talmudic world, they're only really concerned with mixing the milk with red meat (and poultry, since pork is out anyway). My grandmother would refer to a restaurant as a "vegetarian place" even though they served non-vegetarian stuff just because they had a mock duck on the menu. That's the world we need to step into a bit. These restaurants are a dying breed and there weren't vegans back then AFAIK, they were a new word coined for "non-dairy vegetarian." Hopefully my adding of "generally ovo-lacto vegetarian/pescetarian" suitably clarifies, but we can't omit the discussion of vegetarianism because it's key to the article. Yes, it's a fascinating little book. Andre🚐 06:10, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
You've done good work on the article. I hesitate to comment further, esp since I've written about research that shows conversations between 2 editors tends to escalate into disputes, so it's best to get other folks to weigh in.
I agree that the OU source is weak, but something like this might be desirable at some point to explain certification and supervision.
If this article should be kept within an earlier time period, then perhaps that should be reflected in the title or the lead. But there are kosher dairy restaurants nowadays all around the world, so it'd be good for Wikipedia to have an article with a bit of the global aspect if possible. ProfGray (talk) 07:29, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
I'm not saying the article has to be limited to an earlier time period. Actually, I just said please go ahead and expand it with more modern stuff if you have it. The Spielberg thing is great, thank you for adding that. The fact remains though that the heyday of the dairy restaurant is in the past. This isn't an article about all kosher restaurants, just dairy restaurants. And mainly I was responding to the concern about vegetarianism. Vegetarianism is related to this topic, although Jewish vegetarianism is also an article. Andre🚐 08:02, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Let's discuss (at some point) the reverts of the content on vegan and vegetarian restaurants, from articles that don't explicity say "dairy." These are not meat restaurants, so they are classified as dairy restaurants in common Jewish discourse. Not all kosher dairy is vegan, but all vegan restaurants are going to be discussed within that umbrella, as we discussed above. Vegetarian restaurants, if they serve milk or cheese, are certainly "dairy" (milchig) in a strict sense, even if the source doesn't mention it explicitly.
(In theory, there could be an article about Jewish vegan restaurants that are not explicitly named as "dairy," but that doesn't seem necessary with the content available.) ProfGray (talk) 08:31, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
@ProfGray, I appreciate your enthusiasm on this topic, and I do not WP:OWN the article, and I encourage your constructive improvements to the article to continue. However, I must say I'm puzzled by defending including unrelated content about Jewish veganism and this edit[4]. Could you please explain how either of those is related to the topic of Dairy restaurants? Neither appears to be one or mention them. That would be WP:SYNTH if you're just randomly introducing unrelated stories about kosher restaurants. I've already removed several examples of this. Could you please remove that edit if you can't justify it, and please in the future when you're adding stuff, stick to things that are related directly to the topic of Dairy restaurants? Andre🚐 08:32, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
My mistake with the Ethiopian place. Effy's is dairy and I'll add a cite for that. Not sure if you saw my comment above, please look. ProfGray (talk) 08:40, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Effy's cite is good 👍, and thanks for removing the Ethiopian one. As far as the Jewish veganism, I think that also needs a source explicitly connecting it. It's not enough that you and I know that that would be commonly thought of as dairy by observers of kashrut. That needs to be in a source. If it is, great, you can restore it with that source and I won't remove it again. But just on the face of it, a vegan restaurant isn't a dairy restaurant even though it might be dairy in the kosher categorization sense, mainly because by virtue of being vegan, they are actually non-dairy in the culinary sense, since vegans won't eat any animal products, which excludes milk, cream, not to mention the eggs and fish that we talked about most dairy places having. I'd accept it if you have a source that calls them vegan dairy restaurants, but just articles about Jewish vegan restaurants shouldn't be included here absent a source explicitly calling them dairy restaurants. However, I think you should totally turn the Jewish veganism redirect into an article about them, if you feel so inclined, or Jewish vegan restaurant even. Andre🚐 08:58, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
This is a good question to figure out -- what is the relationship of vegan to Jewish dairy or kosher dairy, etc., restaurants (and food). I will start another thread to try to get a handle on the overall options for this article (which connects to some related others).ProfGray (talk) 12:19, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
After thinking about this more, I agree about moving descriptions of Jewish vegan restaurants and Jewish veganism, unless the article deals with the dairy/milchig aspects. Thanks.ProfGray (talk) 17:38, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
No worries. I hope you know I really welcome and appreciate the constructive dialogue even though we might not always agree! Andre🚐 17:49, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Me, too! I'm a bit nervous, just hyper-aware after reading scholarship about what WP editors tend to say that escalates into disputes.
Question: I'd like to put some info from this article into the Kosher restaurants article. I could rewrite (paraphrase) and use the same sources. Or, I could copy some text with sources, citing this article in the edit summary (per WP:Merge IIRC), and then revise there. Do you have a preference?
I will do a similar copy with the vegan stuff. ProfGray (talk) 18:29, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Either or both sounds good! Andre🚐 22:36, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Done, fyi, copy w credit in edit summary, to Kosher restaurants. Also, added image. ProfGray (talk) 01:57, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

@ProfGray, I'm not sure about "Kosher dairy foods" as a section. I think that belongs in "Overview." Maybe a better split would be "Overview," then "History." Andre🚐 07:19, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

History would make sense, these sections usually go near the beginning IINM. I'd still leave a section at the end for the variety of foods maybe, which are trans-historical, and for discussion of kashrut issues. But not a hill for me to die on, as they say. ProfGray (talk) 07:30, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
I'm not sure I can untangle the history from the overview at the moment without further expansion, anyway. But I do think the listing of the food on the menu belongs in the overview, as it's explaining what these restaurants are and what they have. The discussion of the kosher certifications is informative and it does seem to be related, although, it might belong better at the milk and meat in Jewish law or Jewish vegetarianism article, since although they mention the kosherness of dairy in those sources, they do not seem to talk much about dairy restaurants per se. Andre🚐 08:00, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Here's an effort to lay out options for the scope of this article, which has implications both for the content here and its relationship to other current & potential articles. 

Restaurant :: food. Safe to assume that this article will stick to restaurants. It suppose it might serve as a sub-article of Kosher restaurant and a sub-article of (B-class) Kosher foods, which lacks any section on food industry and restaurants.
Jewish or Kosher
Kosher is a well-defined formal term and regulated by both rabbinic and (some) secular law. There are three and only three categories: meat (fleishig), dairy (milchig), and pareve, which is food that is not classified as either of the other two. All kosher restaurants use one of these three categories. However, pareve is pretty uncommon.
"Jewish" is in current article name. In the term "Jewish dairy restaurant" it could mean formal "kosher dairy," i.e., milchig, or it might be used more loosely. Sources will vary on what they mean by this phrase. Jewish (alone) is obviously a common word, but its meanings are controversial and contested among Jews. Thus, "Jewish food" is much broader and harder to define than "kosher food," they are not synonyms.
By the way, there's also Kosher style restaurants. These are mostly meat, but maybe some are dairy?
"Jewish dairy" or "kosher dairy"
Jewish dairy -- has the advantage of Katchor's book The Dairy Restaurant, which is at the core (and early version history) of the article. The book seems to use "Jewish dairy" 15 times and in more relevant ways than "kosher dairy" (also 15 times). Overall "Jewish dairy restaurant" has 1250 g-hits, 14 g-scholar hits, 230 g-book hits, Google news 253
Kosher dairy -- This term is more common -- 12,500 g-hits, 61 g-scholar hits, 681 g-book hits, Google news 300
Vegetarian and Vegan restaurants
A key question is the extent to which we rely on formal definitions, logical categories, or phrasing of sources. Vegetarian restaurants seem to typically use cheese, so they might be formally "kosher dairy" even if the source does not use that phrase. Example -- sources don't need to say "dairy" if they refer to place with "kosher pizza" (133,000 g-hits, 205 G-Scholar hits, 2530 g-books, News 377 -- but some hits may be pizza as food, not restaurants)
Plus, there's are some kosher Sushi places that are vegetarian with fish, and no dairy restaurants, so they are pareve. Maybe these could be subsumed in this or the kosher restaurants article.
Vegan restaurants are less clear to me. Ordinarily, I see these grouped by Jews with other non-meat restaurants, kosher or quasi-kosher. So, it looks like they belong, at least as an outlier section, here, yet there's a good argument to exclude them from the scope of this article. It may depend on how formally to define the scope of this article. There are more than a dozen "Vegan" kosher restaurants certified in the controversial IKC kosher list (including one vegan pizzeria?!)
Other options for this article. It seems possible that the article began with a focus on Katchor's book and related history. So it'd be fair to refocus this article on, say, "History of New York dairy restaurants" or as in-depth article on Katchor's book itself, adding some history and context from other sources.
Update -- Might the article include ice cream, doughnut, and bagel shops? Bakeries?
Hope this is useful in sorting out the definitional issues for this article and for what gets to be included here. ProfGray (talk) 13:46, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Appreciate the thoughts, but I strongly oppose any change to the article scope. As you say, this is about restaurants, not Kosher food or Jewish cuisine, or a specific article like Blintz. This is an article about Jewish dairy restaurants, which are also called milchig restaurants. It is not an article about vegan restaurants, which are not dairy-based restaurants, although I'm open to including them if sources relate them to this. It is not an article about kosher style restaurants at all, which is typically about Jewish delis, ie flesichig.  "Kosher dairy" is more common because it is not exclusively about this topic. For example, that could refer to a dairy as in a place that makes milk, or simply a kosher delineation for food products. It is also not limited to the "history" because it should include an overview as well - no reason to WP:SPLIT the broader scope since it's not very long. And no, it's definitely not about ice cream parlors or Jewish bakeries. Those are quite different. This is an article about the Jewish dairy restaurants. Andre🚐 16:59, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Ok, fair enough. Agreed that milchig restaurant is another term for the scope. But it does appear that Kosher dairy restaurant would be a more common title (usage stats above) and a more unambiguous title for English readers. Thoughts? ProfGray (talk) 17:32, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
I agree that's a synonym, and should at least redirect here if not be the title. And you're right that it's more common overall, but many of those sources are passing mentions or unreliable sources, WP:COMMONNAME is in WP:RS and not everything on the web. One possibility is also to move to it to Dairy restaurant which is currently a redirect here. This was also discussed above at this thread. Personally I'd prefer to leave it where it is because I think that's the title preferred by the reliable books and articles that the article is based on, the most WP:PRECISE title and the one reflects the sources the article is based on currently, but I'm open to changing my mind if you can do a more comprehensive survey of sources that use "Kosher dairy restaurant" at the expense of "Jewish." I think when you drill down to a lot of the mentions of "kosher dairy restaurant" they are current restaurants advertising themselves or current restaurant reviews which aren't RS or are passing mentions. Andre🚐 17:43, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Ok, it appears that we are close, or in outright agreement. Let me ask clarifying questions: If discussed in a reliable source, is it adequate for a restaurant to be (WP-verifiably) certified as a kosher ("dairy" or "milchig") restaurant, even if the specific phrase "Jewish dairy restaurant" does not appear in the source? For instance, can a reliable source about kosher pizza restaurants be included, even if the word dairy is not used there? Might a Mizrahi/Sephardi milchig restaurant be within the scope? Or to ask another way, is there any difference between "kosher dairy restaurant" and "Jewish dairy restaurant" that would exclude some restaurants that have dairy kashrut supervision?
Anyway, to consider a title change, agreed that a better survey of sources could be useful. Would it be good to get input from other  editors in Judaism / Jewish culture? Thanks ProfGray (talk) 18:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
All very context-dependent, but here are my general ideas. So yes, if discussed in a reliable source that it's a kosher milchig or certified dairy restaurant, that is a suitable synonym and should apply, but just being a kosher restaurant, without some discussion of that aspect, probably not. Depends on the context. Kosher vegetarian restaurant also could go either way. These days, with the vegan stuff, it's unclear, although a kosher vegetarian restaurant from 1937 almost probably is a dairy restaurant. Mizrahi/Sephardic seems like fair game though a little outside of the sweet spot, but I wouldn't exclude it simply for not being Ashkenazi even though it's more of an Ashkenazi tradition. Is there such a thing as a kosher style Jewish dairy restaurant? I can't think of one, but it's not impossible. I'd say the daylight between kosher dairy restaurant and Jewish dairy restaurant is minimal if it exists at all. Andre🚐 22:40, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

It seems that articles should center around secondary sources, but primary sources may be useful as long as we avoid original research. Here's some sources:

Circle K agency has 37 dairy restaurants (mostly NY and CA), 21 meat, and 14 pareve. https://www.ok.org/restaurant-guide/
OU seems to list 12 dairy and 37 meat restaurants in NY. https://oukosher.org/restaurants/
Star K has many restaurants across the US, but not easy to see how many are dairy. Presumably these include doughnuts, ice cream shops, pizza, bagel shop.https://www.star-k.org/retail-establishments
ORB lists more than a dozen dairy restaurants in Florida. https://www.orbkosher.com
IKC, which is controversial, has many dairy and vegan restaurants: https://www.ikckosher.com/clients.html
CRC has 15 dairy (or combo) in Chicago. https://consumer.crckosher.org/kosher-establishments/?q=&meat_or_dairy%5B%5D=Dairy&meat_or_dairy%5B%5D=Dairy+or+Pareve&meat_or_dairy%5B%5D=Meat+or+Dairy&comp_type%5B%5D=Restaurant
There are many other certification agencies. Not finding a consolidated dataset yet. ProfGray (talk) 14:14, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Unless those sources mention Jewish dairy restaurants, it's WP:SYNTH and shouldn't be used here. Andre🚐 17:00, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
To elaborate a little more on my thoughts - I'm not opposed to adding some of those as WP:EL. And to the extent there's something useful in the WP:PRIMARY we could definitely add it. As you say, they list dairy restaurants, but I think it needs some more useful context or some reason that we're adding it - we shouldn't be interpreting primary, but can be used for simple facts. So if you can speak a bit more to what you want to use them to source I might be fine with it. Andre🚐 17:53, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
yes, context is needed, as well as a reason to add info. This should not devolve into a list article. But I believe we are allowed to count up or compile certain facts, for instance, "As of 2024, there were ___ milchig restaurants in Cleveland under the ____ kashrut agency."
In addition, I'm guessing that some agency websites have information about certification of dairy restaurants (not merely milchig food) that could enhance the article. ProfGray (talk) 18:23, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Yes, I don't see a problem with a count like that. And I think the certification stuff could be fine assuming it mentions dairy restaurants and not just the food like you say. Andre🚐 22:42, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Currently, there's a short lead followed by a section called "Overview" which contains most of the content and detail.  Some restructuring seems needed as, per WP:LEAD, it's the lead which is supposed to be a summary or overview of the detailed content.
I also reckon some globalising is needed as the article talks mainly about the US.  Do these places exist in Israel or elsewhere?  One has been newly introduced in London and I'll check that out now ...
Andrew🐉(talk) 09:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that would qualify as a dairy restaurant, and looks delicious to boot. I'm sure there is more interesting information about dairy restaurants in London, Israel, and elsewhere. There's a bit of extra focus on NY because of the Ben Katchor book, which particularly focuses on the Lower East Side, and yes, the lead could have more summarization of the key points as well. In London you've got a dairy probably pizza place [5], a place called Reubens which claims it's the first[6][7], another new one called Sophies[8], but I suspect the real interesting stuff would be historical places in the East End like this Kosher Luncheon Club[9] During the late nineteenth century kosher eateries opened up all over the East End. They were at first little more than soup kitchens but as the community prospered, so the variety of the menus improved, reflecting the regional dishes brought over by the Jewish refugees. The Kosher Luncheon Club was one of the last of such eateries to survive in East London. It existed for decades in Kasler Hall attached to the former Great Garden Street Synagogue in Greatorex Street and was known as a dairy restaurant, selling fish and vegetable dishes, no meat... This index[10] should also be helpful and lists a number in London. Andre🚐 17:48, 18 November 2024 (UTC)