# Talk:Hel (mythological being)

I know that she was actually known as "Hel" to the Norsemen and not "Hela", but given the prominence of "Hela" in modern sources ranging from Marvel Comics to the John Charles Dollman painting actually used as an illustration on this page something needs to be said about that form of the name somewhere on this page. --Khajidha (talk) 17:10, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

It would be Hella if anything. Hela is a mispelling and no one even in the Marvel universe pronounce it any other way than Hella. Though the closest you could get to that name academically is the Helja, but Hel is just more universally used.Carewolf (talk) 20:38, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

I must express my surprise about the confusion about Hel not being categrorized or named a Goddess. This seem to be because she was not a part of the group asynja (modern Swedish spelling). It does seem a little odd. The asynja was simply the name of the goddesses belonging to the group of deities living in Asgard. Not all gods or goddesses lived in Asgard, but that does not mean that they where not gods or goddesses.  To designate her as 'not a goddess' because she did not belong to the goddesses living in Asgard, and thus not having the title of asynja, is essentially the same thing as not categorizing Hades as a god because he did not reside in Olympus: true enough, Hades is not categorized as one of the Olympians for that reason, but that does not mean that he is not a god, not does anyone say he is not.  Now, Hel is categorized as a "being", which is a little odd, as there is no true difference between being a "supernatural being" and being a goddess in this case, and she function as a goddess in all issues - beside for the fact, it seems, that she her place of residence disqualify her as such.  All this seem to me to be a uneccessary semantic confusion, perhaps originally founded on a misunderstanding during translation, that a goddess need to live in Asgard and have the title asynja to be counted as a goddess.  This is comparable to the Greek mythology, where many gods does not live in Olympus - or many other mythologies, for example, the goddess Ereshkigal, who like Hel are the queen of the underworld and the goddess of the death and have the same functions as Hel.  This is uneccessary and creates unhelpful consequences for the readers and users of Wikipedia.  To remove the categories "death goddesses" and so forth is not helpful to the reader, because she was a death goddess and functioned as such, and should be categorized with other "beings" with the same function rather than to be exclused because of a semantic designation. Indeed, Ereshkigal ias also a "supernatural being" - well, that is what a goddess is. --92.35.227.48 (talk) 15:56, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

We don't make any assumptions on Wikipedia, we stick to what scholarship says. The question of whether or not Hel was considered to be some kind of goddess or a jötunn remains entirely open-ended in the source material, which scholarship on the matter reflects. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:00, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

I am trying to add a modern culture section page and within it give instances in which Hel was depicted in several video games. Almost every god or goddess in one form or another has a modern culture section within their article that simply lists in which movies, tv shows, video games, or music the respective god is mentioned in. However my section, which is well referenced and contains the appropriate internal links, keeps being reverted and I was asked to gain a consensus regarding its inclusion, which is a little ridiculous in my opinion as this page is not frequently edited (I mean the last post to this talk page was two years ago). Regardless, I believe the more well-referenced and cited information on a a page the better, and adding an "In Popular Culture" section helps make the page more consistent with similar pages. Also in reality the vast majority of younger people only know Hel and many other gods and goddesses from mythology because of references in popular media, so including such a section is important. MrGoldenfold007 (talk) 15:56, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

This is just the use of the character in games and shows no impact of the use on culture. The cited references are simply documenting the games, with no intent or attempt to link the appearance of the god to any impact on culture. It's an excellent example of what WP:IPC warns about: " indiscriminate collections of trivia or cruft."
The section WP:IPCEXAMPLES provides more detailed guidance. Of the four suggested questions to ask there, #1 ("Has the subject (if a person or organization) acknowledged the existence of the reference?") is not applicable (subject is not a living human being). #s 3 ("Did any real-world event occur because of the cultural element covered by the reference?" & 4 ("Did the referencing material significantly depend on the specific subject?") are decidedly "no." Only #2 ("Have multiple reliable sources pointed out the reference?") comes anywhere close, but that's a simple artifact of documenting the game -- not because of any particular import of Hel the being.
This is the type of "sighting" that IPC disapproves. It's the sort of thing for which Wikipedia has been rightfully mocked. It gives no useful information to anyone researching Hel. TJRC (talk) 20:58, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
I'd argue that my added section provides useful information to a reader in showing that Hel is still being depicted at least somewhat in modern culture. Without an "In Modern Culture" section a reader has no way of knowing if Hel has been depicted in anything save the Hela in Marvel Comics, which has its own article. Additionally, if I create an "In Modern Culture" section from scratch of course it's not going to be very large and possibly be "trivial" in size and/or scope at first, I'm only one person and as with any article or section the hope is that it will grow over time, but it has to start somewhere. I am willing to do more research into depictions of Hel in popular culture, but I was only prepared to add to the article depictions of Hel I was familiar with. If every attempt to create an IMC section is shot down, it's never going to grow into anything.
Also again I want to reiterate that an IPC section, similar in structure to my own though usually larger because they're well established and not brand new, is present in almost every mythology article, so I believe there is already a general consensus supporting the presence of such sections among the editing and admin community at large, or else these sections would be taken down regularly. You might not like video games and that might be one reason you find my addition trivial, but I think it's important to understand that by and large younger generations learn about mythology largely through video games, fantasy literature, and movies. I can add additional instances of Hel being present in popular culture that I am less familiar with such as her being present in the Magnus Chase and the Gods of Asgard book series or being in episodes of the tv show Supernatural, which could help show that depictions of Hel are not present in any one form of media. Alone any of these mentions are not significant I agree with that, but if a lot of instances are mentioned it can better show the influence, or lack of influence, for a particular mythological deity in modern culture.
I think having a short paragraph about depictions of Hel in modern literature, video games, film, and televisions could be beneficial, and not ruin the integrity of the article. I realize long bulleted lists can be annoying at times which is why I purposefully did my edit within a paragraph, not bullet points. Take a look at the article for Thor, which is designated as a "good article," it has a fairly lengthy modern influence section but it's not in bullet point form, and it gets the idea across that Thor has had a big influence on modern culture, as he is depicted in a great variety of media. MrGoldenfold007 (talk) 01:53, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
Also it looks like that Wikiproject page you posted that consensus discussion to regarding this article is even more dead than the article, I mean the last post to the Wikiproject page was in April and all the topics posted to the discussion page get no comments or interaction from what I've seen. The "consensus" is likely going to be 50/50, your vote and my vote, no one else, unless invited by you I guess, will voice any opinion on the matter.

I must say, the in culture section as written is quite promotional. Really, one only needs a single line that says "Hel is a character in the 20xx video game xxxx". All the rest is guff. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 00:34, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
I agree with including it. Just trim it a little @MrGoldenfold007: and format references. To really solidify it, it needs some secondary sources. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:56, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Thanks all, I'm a newer editor so it's great to get some constructive feedback. I'll get on making those changes. MrGoldenfold007 (talk) 00:59, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
@MrGoldenfold007: "in popular culture" sections of articles are often a hotbed of conflict. In part because alot of them were haphazard unreferenced jumbles of trivia, but many editors frown on them and will wholesale revert even referenced material. Best thing is to reference everything with as good sources as possible. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:44, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Why is Hel referred to as a "being" in English language Wikipedia? Is this an issue of English language scholarship? She is referred to as a goddess in Swedish scholarship. Would the term goddess be accepted about her if a reference is added describing this in Swedish language sholarship, or is she referred to as a being her simply because this is the preferred term about her in English language books? It seems an odd thing to sort her as a being, if this is only about the term ascribed for her in the English language. Would it not be more correct to follow the term described for her in the culture she originated? --Aciram (talk) 01:10, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

We'e discussed scholastic reception of Hel above quite a lot (see above). The issue is that the corpus does not designate her as a goddess (ásynja), a jötunn, or anything else, which is unusual. Some scholars have even argued that she was essentially a late personification, and was not considered a goddess at all. We have significant discussion from scholars in the article on this, and we're not here to take a stance on the matter one way or another. :bloodofox: (talk) 07:35, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Non-English scholarship is still scholarship, and this article greatly overrepresents the proportion of good scholarship in which she is considered a goddess. The section which talks about the controversy in the article has virtually no input from academics who would describe her as such. Scholarship is always changing, though, so previous discussions don't necessarily put anything to bed.  AnandaBliss (talk) 02:16, 26 September 2024 (UTC)