# Talk:Dock Ellis

Does anyone else find it odd that Dock Ellis, when listed on a roster, would appear as "Ellis, D"? Say it aloud ("ell-ess-dee"). When I first read this story years ago, I dismissed it as an urban legend or drug lore. Apparently not!
I been reading up on his LSD No hitter, and find this articles information to be way off. I will correct it with the proper information latter.

The way the article is written makes it appear that Ellis beaned Jackson during the 1971 All-Star game.  I reverted User:Mojo Len's edit because it was unsourced and the tone was wrong for an encyclopedia.  A little researching turned up an anecdotal post about the beaning occurring in 1976 because of the '71 home run, but I can't find anything that qualifies as a source that meets Wikipedia standards.  Anyone else have more/better info?  CarbonX (talk) 05:28, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

"Ellis' best season came in 1971 when he won 19 games for the world champion Pirates. He was the NL starting pitcher in the All-Star Game that year and gave up a famous homer to Reggie Jackson off the Tiger Stadium light tower. Five years later Ellis, pitching for the Yankees, beaned Baltimore's Jackson in the face in apparent retaliation for the All-Star Game home run." -- from Dock's obit at http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2008/12/20/2008-12-20_from_nohitter_on_lsd_to_hair_curlers_to_.html --CliffC (talk) 01:49, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Didn't realize this question was over a year old, have added the cite.  --CliffC (talk) 01:59, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Because the no-hitter was the first game of a double header, Ellis was forced to keep track of the pitch count for the night game.
I don't know what this means. 68.239.116.212 (talk) 00:24, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Added two links, thanks for the heads-up.  --CliffC (talk) 01:45, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
I came here to ask the same question. Is the idea that the second game could have gone so long that the Pirates ran out of pitchers, and Ellis would have to pitch again on just a few hours rest? That's something you'd do only as a last resort, right? But once you were in that situation, you have to use the guy, however many pitches he threw in game one. Right? So why bother counting? And couldn't somebody else have counted the pitches? The pitching coach, say, or another team employee? Or whoever is scoring the game? Nowadays they track pitch counts in every game, double header or no. Didn't they do that in the 70s?
With Google, I have found other pages with this same bit of verbiage. (They seem to be copies of each other, though I can't tell whether this article is the source or another copy.) But I can't find an explanation. I'm curious what the links are that CliffC mentions adding; perhaps they make it all plain. I'm stumped. TypoBoy (talk) 02:14, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
My understanding of a pitch count, is to gauge a number of things related to a pitcher during a ballgame, such as his effectiveness, strategies for how to pitch to batters on their subsequent at-bats, concerns for any potential injury or even after-effects of previous injuries. This way, the manager can always make the best informed decisions on how to pitch to one batter vs another, and for keeping a pitcher in, or removing him for a reliever. I'm sure there are other motivations for counting pitches as well. This is a rather mundane duty and the one doing the counting should be a player who doesn't really need to focus on other aspects of the game, so that he can give the most accurate info to the manager in real time. The idea behind a starting pitcher keeping track of the pitch count the game after he pitches, is that he would, under most circumstances, be the least likely player to be called upon to play in the very next game, precisely because he did just finish pitching earlier in the day for a doubleheader, or the previous day for single games. Fgoron2000 (talk) 17:44, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Dock Ellis/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Secret (talk · contribs) 05:01, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
I'll be reviewing this article, along with a couple of others within a day or two. Secret account 05:01, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Take your time, this is a decently long article. – Muboshgu (talk) 05:19, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
Yea I feel this is one of the few articles from you that I could review independently that is from my subject area. Considering I'm very familiar with the Yankee subjects that you mostly have in GA reviews right now, I could be a help making the article achieve GA/FA considering I have access to the proper sourcing including many books from that era I own. If I review them, however it might be a burden because of my access to the sourcing. I'm a bit familiar with Ellis as well, who had one of the most colorful personalities in a era filled with them, I think making a proper GA review here will be worth it. I'll review it tomorrow in the afternoon hopefully, right now it's 2 AM so I need to sleep. Thanks Secret account 06:21, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
Reviewing now....

I'm surprised there isn't much use of Dock Ellis autobiography, which is considered one of the best and most honest memoirs written by a baseball player. Tons of authors who finally got around to write information from his era uses the book as a key source while doing their research.
I don't have access to it. Although I do see that Google Books has an excerpt of it available. I think I did a decent job with sources, so we'll see if this is an issue or not. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:18, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
"While there, he began drinking and using drugs.[1] Ellis said that he began using drugs at the age of 14.[2]" Both sentences should be combined here, also an explanation on why he started using drugs so early which is key to understanding the article further along.
Sentences combined. Not aware of an explanation for why he started using. Are you? – Muboshgu (talk) 00:18, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
I had read Ellis autobiography but I don't own a copy, though my local college library has one so I'll rent from there once I figure out my latest health issues. I think it was peer pressure from his friends. Secret account 01:52, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
"four games, and was named all-league" He was named all-league after only playing four games? Bleh do further fact checking for that as it sounds a bit dubious.
It's what the source says. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:18, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
That doesn't mean the source is accurate on that detail, see if you can find a second source confirming it as source 5 said he played 3 games and no mention of all-league, and I don't remember a all-league mention in his book. Secret account 01:52, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
"He was arrested for grand theft auto, and given probation." Seems misplaced in that paragraph, unless it involved him getting signed for a much lower bonus, which then it should be clarified.
That was part of it, yes. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:18, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
Did any team confront him about his amphetamines use? (I know some players did, but it's not in the article)
I didn't find anything on that. Which players did? I didn't find that either. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:18, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
The Pirates optioned Ellis to the minor leagues;[14] he began the season with Columbus, moved from the rotation into the bullpen.[15] Some word missing there.
Fixed. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:18, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
I noticed alot of sentences begin with He, which gets repetitive, change some words around.
Working on that. Probably will do a bit more of it. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:34, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
He decided to stop talking about baseball with sportswriters.[20] This should be removed, as it's only sourced with a 1970 newspaper piece. Ellis was well known for speaking his mind with the media who had a mixed relationship with him.
Removed. Some of the issues I imagined would come up would be this sort of thing: items I left in the article in order to make this a 5x expansion for DYK. Since the DYK, I've tried to condense and clean, but figured I'd miss some things, like that. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:23, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
Apparently in Ellis autobiography, and several other highly reliable book sources and later interviews, the team flew on a Wednesday, he took the LSD pill that day, slept though Thursday, and only realizing it was Friday thinking it was Thursday because of that reason. I can replace the info and source for you though, but try to use books and scholarly article more often as a lot of what players said back in the 70s and 80s were bull and some journalists get fooled by it.
Sirbacon.org source can be replaced
I can't find his quote about the game in any other source. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:21, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
He finished third with only 0.402 home runs allowed per nine innings pitched.[28] Random unneeded stat.
Removed. There for the 5x expansion, doesn't need to be for GA. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:24, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
Opening day score?
Added – Muboshgu (talk) 00:34, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
To be continued....

I'm sure there's free images of Ellis out there as he was in the public eye until his death. Flickr may have some, and if they say all rights reserved ask if they can release it to a free license. Be careful though as some of the images there are associated press and so forth that is being illegally used there.
I looked through Flickr and found nothing, so I uploaded the one picture you see under a fair use license. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:57, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Nothing for 1969 other than he made the roster? Or the early part of the 1970 season?
So far not much on 1969 or early 1970, in deeper searching. I added a bit on Steve Blass being demoted to the bullpen, keeping Ellis in the rotation. I'll find more. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:05, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
He lasted only 2 1⁄3 innings, allowing four hits and four runs, including two home runs.[42] He was the losing pitcher in the game. Can be combined into one sentence.
Done. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:05, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
In his 1980 book, he claimed that wearing hair curlers produced sweat on his hair, which he used to throw a modified version of a spitball.[5] It's Ellis book not Morgan so reword, source says 1976 though I know there been more recent editions of that book.
Yeah, but Joe Morgan accused him of throwing a spitball during the 1970s. Ellis didn't confirm it until the book. Clarified. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:09, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Ellis had the third lowest walks allowed per nine innings pitched ratio (2.089) and seventh best walks plus hits per inning pitched ratio (1.155).[62] Random stats, use his normal season stats.
Walks per nine is perhaps less common, but WHIP is a pretty regularly cited stat. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:39, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Healthy to begin the 1975 season, Ellis continued to perform well at the beginning of the season. And then it jumps to an incident in August, add a sentence or two on how well.
1978 is missing
His 1978 season was nondescript from a statistical standpoint, but was highlighted by his leading a team insurrection against the manager regarding the liquor policy. Corbett fired Hunter after the season and kept Ellis. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:37, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Ellis' son, Dock Ellis III, played college baseball. Where?
It was college basketball, my mistake. And Cal State Bakersfield. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:10, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Honestly because so much is written about Ellis no-hitter why don't you create a separate article on it, as it's clearly one of the more memorable games in history.
That might not be a bad idea. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:10, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Some of his pitching style and personality is worth its own section, there's very little on his pitching style here other than he threw spitballs and while there's snips and pieces of his personality in the article it doesn't seem like it's fully complete, it mainly what made Ellis one of the most colorful figures in baseball history.
Any way you'd propose doing a personality section? I felt it fit best in a chronological look at his career. Anything in particular you think is missing? I'll look into his pitching style. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:29, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm not seeing much on his pitches. He had a curveball and a changeup to go with his fastball, but that's all I know so far. There was no PitchF/X back then. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:41, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Oh wait here we go... Hall asked Ellis in their book... – Muboshgu (talk) 17:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
See what else you can find on Ellis. On hold for now. Secret account 01:52, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
How's this review coming along? Wizardman 02:29, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Secret is MIA. I messaged him on his talk page a while ago and sent him an email a few days ago, with no response. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:17, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Yes I been MIA hardly have time anymore sorry about that and I saw the email (somehow it landed in my spam folder so sorry for the late reply there), most of my concerns been fixed, I'll comment on a PR or FAC if it happens, just email me, passing. Secret account 22:18, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for finishing this off, and hopefully everything's okay in the real world. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:16, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

This is a popular story, and well referenced, but there is some skepticism that probably should be in the article about this event.  Bill Christine, a beat reporter of the Pirates disputes the story, though I wish I could find a better source than deadspin. [1] Two kinds of pork (talk) 06:05, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Add "self-reportedly" to the beginning of the sentence and put it back in. This is not an urban legend.__ E L A Q U E A T E 17:27, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Alternately, you could re-add the well sourced stuff you removed and add the minority bit of skepticism as a quote at the end.__ E L A Q U E A T E 17:32, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
After taking a look at it, it looks like there are a couple of naysayers who are just speculating that it couldn't have happened because they would have seen it and admit they wouldn't want to admit missing a good story. Considering this is the era of sports journalism that said people weren't on steroids because they would have seen it too, I think we should go with the widespread belief in reliable sources that this was true. The Deadspin article itself supports this view. If you want to add a bit about the speculation at the end, go ahead, but don't make it seem like it's not a minority view. i.e. if you add naysaying, you'd have to add more corroborating, as the Deadspin article ultimately does. __ E L A Q U E A T E
I'm ok with "claims" or whatnot.    As for "minority view", there is only one view, which is Ellis claimed he was tripping during the no no.  Under no circumstance should the article report that he was under the influence of LSD, because we have no sources stating such.  Christine's skeptism is quite relevant, as not only is he a journalist, he had intimate knowledge of the team and their procedures.  And btw, that wasn't the roids era, but the greenies era.Two kinds of pork (talk) 19:49, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Despite Elequate's unsubstantiated claims that "dozens" of journalists believe they LSD claim, the statement in the lead reflects journalists who were at the game and were well familiar with the workings of the team.  Those views are considerably stronger then any presented so far, so they are certainly not "undue".  As Ellis is widely known for this claim, it must be tempered by the highly reliable sources who cast doubt on this claim.Two kinds of pork (talk) 18:12, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

There are certainly a full barrel of stories like this (where the claim is taken at face value without insistence it couldn't have happened) to support my claim that many reporters conditionally believe it could have happened. Snopes suggests we should generally believe it, as well as your own big source, Deadspin. If someone self-reports drunk driving, where they make it home safe without an incident, we don't usually give tonnes of weight to those who say they didn't notice any bad driving. But if you want the article to be more like Deadspin, go ahead, although you still might want to re-write some of your bit before I do, as it seems a little heavy-handed in trying to show that people who believe him couldn't possibly know, and people who didn't believe him "would surely" have noticed. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We aren't in a position to say a reporter would have had to notice something. Again, if someone who's theoretically done drugs didn't raise much suspicion, it shouldn't be presented as known proof that no drugs were taken. I'd also remove the part starting "despite" as that's turning something that was a speculation in the article into a non-questioned factor in our article. It's also pretty unintentionally funny that you assert that Bill Christine was intimately familiar with Danny Murtaugh. There might be a BLP issue in there somewhere.__ E L A Q U E A T E 01:38, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
If anyone is dense enough to think there is sexual innuendo, by all means fix it. Two kinds of pork (talk) 01:52, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Okay, let's improve the article together.__ E L A Q U E A T E 11:44, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Hmm, new information. It looks like Charley Feeney wasn't in attendance at all, according to Charley Feeney. He did write up a story about the no-hitter later. But we can't reference Bill Christine's recollections of Feeney's "on-site" speculation if Feeney says he wasn't there. For the record, Feeney is still alive, and is a Baseball Hall of Fame sportswriter. I'll fix it before a Feeney-fan notices.__ E L A Q U E A T E 16:27, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

That's odd.  I saw this a week ago. [2] .  One of them has to be wrong, or maybe this was a "remote" interview?Two kinds of pork (talk) 16:44, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I saw that too. The quote is in Feeney's later newspaper article, but it doesn't say Feeney specifically "asked" a question on-site. I think it was an introduced paraphrase error on Garland's part, after reading the news article.__ E L A Q U E A T E 16:51, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Ok, he must have been referring to his colleagues about hearing something. Thanks for the correction. Two kinds of pork (talk) 23:53, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

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