# Talk:Hachijō-jima

This review is transcluded from Talk:Hachijō-jima/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Nihonjoe (talk · contribs) 00:48, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
Before I get into the review, I should note that I have made two edits to this page: 1 (changed an image) and 2 (removed stub tag). Neither is significant. 
Now, looking at specifics:

The article is reasonably well written, with prose that is clear and concise. I noticed a few spots where a comma could be used, but there were not many of those.
There is one unsourced statement in the Geology section, so that should be addressed.
The gallery was tagged as "possibly indiscriminate" in May 2017. Try to incorporate the images throughout the rest of the article as possible. There are only 9 images in the gallery, though, so it may be fine to leave it as is.
The lead section needs to include more summarization from the article (basically, it needs to include more that refers to the various parts of the article). Madagascar would be a good one to look at to see how this is done. Also look at WP:LEAD for more detailed guidance.
The references are well organized, there is no original research I can see, and the sources appear to be reliable. I am familiar with a number of them.
There are a few bare URLs that should be converted to use the various citation templates.
Any references that have a non-English title should use the "trans_title" parameter to offer an English translation of the title. There are four references like this.
There are no apparent copyright violations or plagiarism.
The article stays focused on the topic, and covers a broad range of information about the topic.
A few of the sections (Food, Transportation, Education, and Climate) should be expanded a bit as they barely scratch the surface.
The article is neutral in presenting the information. It uses a good encyclopedic tone.
The article is quite stable.
The article has a number of images used throughout it, and they are appropriate for the topics covered.
If those few issues mentioned above are fixed (#2, #3, #4, #6, #7, and #10), then I think this would qualify as a good article. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:48, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

What is the WP:ENGVAR of this article?  It appears to be some sort of Commonwealth English, but it's not clear which.  A {{Use British English}}-type template should be slapped at the top to make it clear. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:32, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
@Curly Turkey: Since that's an easy thing, I threw one on there. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 22:03, 23 January 2018 (UTC)


### Status query
Curly Turkey, Nihonjoe, what's the status of this review? I don't see that anything has been done in over a month; how long will it take to wrap this up? Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:50, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset: If you look at the history, it was originally nominated in April 2017 by Centipede92, who hasn't edited since then. If someone can take care of the items I mentioned, it could be promoted. Since I reviewed it, I can't do the fixing and then promote it myself. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 03:18, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
Nihonjoe, you could always ping one or more of the WikiProjects and task forces that this article falls under, to see whether anyone there would be willing to take responsibility to for updating the article per your review. If no one responds within the usual seven days, or edits the article, then it may be time to consider closing it. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:29, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
@BlueMoonset: I pinged Islands and Japan on January 12, and again on February 7. And again just now. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:59, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
Nihonjoe, I hadn't realized that you had already notified those WikiProjects, or my advice might have been different. If no one offers their help or starts helping within the next seven days, then I see two possibilities: you could close it, or if you really want to bring this to be a GA, to do the updates yourself, and then call for a second opinion, where that person (or, if more than one opinion, those people) is the one to decide whether the article meets the GA criteria. Either way, this can get moving. Thanks for being so proactive. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:09, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
I am planning to do that sometime this week. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:32, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Okay, to address the specific items I raised above since no one else has come forward to work on it:
2. There is one unsourced statement in the Geology section, so that should be addressed.
A: Fixed. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:55, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
3. The gallery was tagged as "possibly indiscriminate" in May 2017. Try to incorporate the images throughout the rest of the article as possible. There are only 9 images in the gallery, though, so it may be fine to leave it as is.
A: I looked at this one and can see no valid reason for the tag. I've removed it. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 02:42, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
4. The lead section needs to include more summarization from the article (basically, it needs to include more that refers to the various parts of the article). Madagascar would be a good one to look at to see how this is done. Also look at WP:LEAD for more detailed guidance.
A: Done. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:55, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
6. There are a few bare URLs that should be converted to use the various citation templates.
A: I fixed all of these and cleaned up all the references to use the proper citation templates. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 02:42, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
7. Any references that have a non-English title should use the "trans_title" parameter to offer an English translation of the title. There are four references like this.
A: These were fixed when I did the cleaning for #6, above. This should no longer be an issue. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 02:42, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
10. A few of the sections (Food, Transportation, Education, and Climate) should be expanded a bit as they barely scratch the surface.
A: Food expanded slightly, transportation can't really be expanded, education moved tot he article about the town (makes more sense to have it there), climate can't really be expanded much. I'm fine with it as it is now. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:55, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I have addressed a few of them now, and will work on the others. If you have any concerns outside of those I raised above in the initial review, BlueMoonset or Curly Turkey, please post them below this comment and I'll see about addressing them. If your comments address a specific concern I already raised, please include the number for easy reference. I also trust Hoary to give an unbiased opinion, so feel free to comment, if you wish. Thanks! ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 02:42, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
First thing that popped out at me when I took a peek was [[Tokyo|Tōkyō]], which technically violates the MOS (though I don't personally care). Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:38, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Me neither. -- Hoary (talk) 07:06, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
I fixed the two instances I saw. If there are others, let me know. These were both in the lead. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:47, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Nihonjoe, thank you for the vote of confidence, as it were. On 23 January, you wrote: "A few of the sections (Food, Transportation, Education, and Climate) should be expanded a bit as they barely scratch the surface." Let's pause for a moment for a reality check. I quote the article: "As of 2009, the island's population was 8,363 people". That's tiny. And also: "tourism remains a large component of the island's economy to date" (citation needed).
Right then:
Food. The article says little -- but quite a lot given that the population is just 8,000 or so. (As for what the tourists eat, this is an encyclopedia and not a tourist guide.)
If there is nothing more that can be found, that's fine. I will see if I can find a few refs that discuss the history of the food or something. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:47, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Transportation. There's still nothing whatever about transportation within the island, which is a pity. But NB the island is tiny.
I will see if I can find any more information the airport, ferries, and perhaps some on any roads on the island. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:47, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Education. For a population of 8,000, do we normally, or should we, say more than we say here? I suggest that it's good enough.
I'll see if I can find any history of the schools, the names of the schools, and anything else I can find. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:47, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Climate. For me, this is the most puzzling. Nihonjoe, when you wrote the above, the article already had the conventional Wikipedia climate table (blue for cold, red for hot). True, this example didn't/doesn't cover extremes; but such information may well not be avalable; anyway, as this is an island in the sea, I think we and readers can infer that the extremes will be tempered when compared with Tokyo 23-ku: this is what being close to the sea does. Even on 23 January, there was easily enough information here. (Or am I missing something? I'm genuinely puzzled.)
I agree, this may be enough for such a small island. I'll see if I can find any other discussions of it outside of NOAA. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:47, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
I think that the big gap in this article is tourism. If you look in Google News for 八丈島 観光客数, you'll find promising links to sources at go.jp and the like. -- Hoary (talk) 07:06, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
The "Activities and accommodation" section seems to cover that. It's not a huge amount of info, but I will see about expanding it. Maybe I'll rename it, too. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:47, 9 March 2018 (UTC)


#### Final look
I think it's all ready for the final evaluation. @Hoary, Curly Turkey,  and BlueMoonset:, if any one of you wants to look through this and see what you think, I would appreciate it. Thanks for all the comments! ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:55, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Nihonjoe, thanks for letting us know. I've asked another GA regular if he'd be willing to take a look; if he agrees, I'll let you know and he'll do a pass through the article. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:56, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Sounds good. Thanks! ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:34, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I've made a few nitpicky tweaks.  I haven't looked deeply into the article, but it at least superficially appears to my eyes to be ready for GA. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:21, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the edits. They all look good to me. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:34, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Another nitpick: there's a mix of serial and non-serial commas—the MoS normally requires you to settle on one style. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 00:07, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
I tried to make them all serial. Feel free to fix any you notice were missed. I've read through this so many times now, my mind probably puts them in even if they aren't there. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:20, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
I think I've gotten them all, There were only 2-3 that I initially missed. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:27, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
I've just now gone through the article, quickly. There were little things that I wouldn't have written; these didn't worry me. What did startle me was a fairly detailed and alluring write-up for a campsite -- open all year, free of charge, no reservation needed! -- based on a source published thirteen years ago. I modified this as gently as my conscience let me; but really, I think that even if it can be brought up to date, this kind of thing belongs not here but in Wiki-voyage or similar. ¶ I have no objection to promotion of this article to GA, but I'd strongly encourage 日本穣, or somebody, to first do what the demands of my salaried job unfortunately don't let me do right now: check that all assertions whose factual correctness can't be assumed to be stable from year to year are marked "(as of 2016)" or whenever (which I know is tedious for both writer and reader), put into the past tense, or otherwise not phrased so that they might mislead the unwary reader. ¶ Incidentally, I didn't intend to write up the fish so pedantically, but "Kusaya is a dried and fermented version of hamatobiou" (as it had said) was very uninformative, and I cobbled something together from ja:トビウオ, as tempered by Cypselurus. I can see at least one way in which I could have made a mistake here. Ideally, some expert on Japanese fish should chime in. -- Hoary (talk) 01:58, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
I've reworded some things as well. I removed the explanation of the hamatobiuo and simply linked to the article about it. There's no reason to go into all the different names for it in this article. I appreciate your edits. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:33, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Sorry: I hadn't noticed that there was an article on kusaya. You improved it, and I've tweaked it further. -- Hoary (talk) 00:41, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
At five paragraphs, the article currently does not meet the lead sections guideline of the GA criteria, particularly the MOS:LEADLENGTH section, which indicates that, for an article of this size (11,151 prose characters), one or two paragraphs is the ideal. In any event, five paragraphs is considered overlong for any GA; perhaps the information can be condensed as well as combined into fewer paragraphs. I would like to suggest that a second opinion for this review be requested, as the person I was going to ask wasn't sure they'd be able to do one for this review, and that's the prescribed way of finding someone new to go over the article. (If you don't know how to make the request, I'm happy to modify the GA nominee template accordingly.) BlueMoonset (talk) 18:23, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
After reading that guideline, I think they're being a bit ridiculous. It's impossible to be both "short" and "complete", but whatever. I don't feel like arguing how I think MOS:LEADLENGTH is overly prescriptive here (or anywhere, for that matter). I've reduced it to two paragraphs. I appreciate your time, especially since I only took on the effort of fixing this article because I thought it was silly that it sit around for so long (it was nominated nearly a year ago) and be so close, waiting for someone to bother with it. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:33, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
I sympathize. This kind of thing is why I've stopped bothering to attempt "good articles" (and have never considered submitting "didja knows"), though if amiably prodded I'm happy to give helping nudges to the attempts by others. -- Hoary (talk) 00:41, 16 March 2018 (UTC)


### Daily Mail
The article cites the Daily Mail. Yes, the ghastly Mail does occasionally have pages worth looking at; they're recyclings of work done elsewhere, and this article is no exception. The text isn't worth reading but the photos are attributed to Ralph Mirebs (whose name is new to me). His website is here, but I can't immediately find these photos within it. Duckduckgoing "ralph mirebs royal resort" brings alternatives to the Mail, but none is particularly impressive. OTOH as this non-article doesn't deal with any perceived threat by young people, "Europe", feminists, dark-skinned people, etc, perhaps the link to it can be left in. -- Hoary (talk) 00:41, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

I wondered if there might be a better source ... and what I found was most interesting.
First, let me quote a randomly chosen chunk from Sadie Whitelocks, "An empty bar and very soiled beds: The haunting carcass of Japan's most luxurious hotel after it was abandoned", Mail Online, March 19, 2017:
Fast forward 30 years, the idea of hanging out on black volcanic sands no longer held the same appeal.
With world class beaches only a little further afield in places such as Guam, Hawaii and Thailand, Hachijojima struggled to reinvent itself.
The hotel subsequently underwent several name changes, settling on the Hachijo Oriental Resort prior to its demise and eventual closure around 2006.
And now let me quote "The Rise and Unravelling of the Hachijo Royal Hotel", Ridgeline Images, April 17, 2016:
Fast forward 30 years and cracks had plainly emerged. With overseas travel having become the norm rather than the exception, the idea of hanging out on black volcanic sands no longer held the same appeal. With world class beaches only a little further afield in places such as Guam, Hawaii and Thailand meant Hachijo-jima was going to struggle to reinvent itself. The hotel subsequently underwent several name changes, settling on the Hachijo Oriental Resort prior to its demise and eventual closure around 2006.
There's no mention in the MailOnline piece of the origin(s) of the text. Either Whitelocks (still active for the MailOnline) ripped it off, or she was honest about the appropriation but the website lazily/deliberately kept mum about it. Either way, it's pretty contemptible. I've replace the reference with one to Ridgeline Images (which has photos less dramatic than Mirebs'), and I've also added another reference, which has different photos again. -- Hoary (talk) 09:33, 16 March 2018 (UTC)


### Second opinion from 1.02 editor
Due to the complexity of the situation, am I correct to assume that I am here to take over the review and pass the article as usually the closing is done by the first reviewer. 1.02 editor (C651 set 217/218) 05:02, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

@1.02 editor: Yes. I originally reviewed the article, but the original nominator hasn't been active for almost a year, so I decided to take on making all the changes. Now we need someone else to give it the final review and determine if it meets GA. If not, we need to know what needs to be fixed. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:43, 16 March 2018 (UTC)


#### comments
some statements are unreferenced. I have put citation needed tags where appropriate.
"sea turtles are common……for a volcanic island" is there a reason for its listing under 'accommodation and activities'?
Thank you for your comments, 1.02 editor. Three items were unsourced: matters of roads, sea turtles, and underwater lava arches. I've sourced the first two and deleted mention of the third. And I've moved the bit about turtles elsewhere in the article. I've removed both your (well merited) "citation needed" flags, I hope with sufficient reason. -- Hoary (talk) 10:10, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
@1.02 editor: How does it look now? ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:41, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
One last issue-it'll be good if the population stats could be updated it is currently showing 2009. Thanks 1.02 editor (C651 set 217/218) 00:12, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
You were too kind, 1.02 editor: it was showing a mishmash of 2009 and 2015. Luckily the cited source has (just!) been updated; and so we have a figure that's less than three weeks old. Fixed. -- Hoary (talk) 01:56, 18 March 2018 (UTC)


### final review
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
one issue needs to be addressed
It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar):  b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): 

It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):  d (copyvio and plagiarism): 

It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects):  b (focused): 

It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias: 

It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.: 

It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions): 

Overall:
Pass/Fail: 

All issues have been addressed and article looks good. Passing. 1.02 editor (C651 set 217/218) 02:04, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Five problems undermine the claims made in this section: (1) Etsu Inagaki Sugimoto had no first-hand knowledge of Hachijō-jimi; she's merely reporting a kind of contemptuous storytelling that Big Island Japanese have for "bumpkins" living on distant small islands. (2) The corresponding Japanese article says nothing whatsoever about male and female roles of the islanders being reversed. (3) The key sources are given in a non-standard way. (4) Don't forget: EIS is novelist, i.e. someone who writes fiction. (5) "Historical Mystery" is an unencyclopedic sensationalist title; Solecistic Claim of Gender Reversal would be more to the point.  Vagabond nanoda (talk) 06:31, 18 October 2023 (UTC)