# Talk:Murder to Excellence

This review is transcluded from Talk:Murder to Excellence/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Nominator: Kyle Peake (talk · contribs) 20:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
Reviewer: CarbonLollipop (talk · contribs) 07:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)
Hello, I'll take a look at this in a bit. CarbonLollipop talk┊contribs 07:02, 20 January 2025 (UTC)


### Prose
#### Lead
I see that a different editor added this in, but do any reliable sources call Jay-Z and Kanye "The Throne"? I think this should be reverted, and I would support The Throne being deleted or merged into Watch the Throne. I've fixed this myself since the article has been draftified.
In the second part, the rappers celebrate their definitions of black excellence despite remaining problems. I'd write "on" (the song) instead of "in" here.
 Done --K. Peake 20:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
An experimental song The source says the song "takes the experimental route", not that it is an experimental song (although it could be interpreted that way). Are there no sources that call it a hip hop song?
 Comment: this one is a tough point, I looked thoroughly and no sources call it any other genres yet the experimental part as you say is down to interpretation do you think it can be kept in this context? --K. Peake 20:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
Since no sources explicitly call it a rap song, I suppose the experimental genre is okay for now. CarbonLollipop talk┊contribs 00:50, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
Don't think "music critics" needs to be linked.
 Not done this is common practice in musical articles --K. Peake 20:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
I personally disagree with this, and haven't seen it in music articles before, but since this isn't a GA issue, OK. CarbonLollipop talk┊contribs 00:50, 24 January 2025 (UTC)


#### Background and recording
From the alt text: Swizz Beatz felt working with Jay-Z and West on the likes of the song was akin to being in the studio with Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson at the same time, the former of whom received a songwriting credit due to a sample of "Celie Shaves Mr./Scarification". I'd also consider removing the last part about the songwriting credit; maybe Swizz Beatz likened working on the song with Jay-Z and West to being in the studio with Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson at the same time.
 Done --K. Peake 20:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
Record producer Swizz Beatz described working with Jay-Z and West on the record as akin to being in the studio with Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson at the same time. Swizz Beatz explained that despite the majority of people not feeling the same way, this comparison would be made in hip hop history within 10 to 15 years. Is the second sentence needed? Writing "record" twice is also repetitive; maybe remove it or change "on the record" to "on the song". You could say Record producer Swizz Beatz compared working with Jay-Z and West to being in the studio with Quincy Jones and Michael Jackson at the same time.
 Not done I feel this would be lacking since there is not much info about Swizz's collab, so it provides more insight into how he felt. --K. Peake 20:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
Fair enough CarbonLollipop talk┊contribs 00:50, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
Following the album's release, Semenya declared that he was unaware of the sample and had found out about it once City Press reached out to him. Semenya alleged that Jay-Z and West did not "even go through my publisher" to obtain permission and he still did not know which composition they used, having worked on many with Jones despite no prior contact being made to him about this sample. The composer was not favorable towards the rappers merely crediting him and insisted they should have followed the full process of obtaining his permission, not feeling any honor at all as he should have been able to grant approval if he liked their work. I rewrote this a bit to remove editorializing and to make it more concise: Following the album's release, Semenya said that he was unaware of the sample until City Press reached out to him. He alleged that Jay-Z and West did not obtain permission, and he did not know which composition had been used. Semenya was not favorable towards the rappers only crediting him, and felt that they should have obtained his permission first.
Speaking in 2011, S1 revealed -> In 2011, S1 said
West recorded his verse after Jay-Z, who completed his recording in 10 to 15 minutes and questioned to S1 when he heard the beat, "What the heck is this?" -> West recorded his verse after Jay-Z, who completed his recording in 10 to 15 minutes. Upon hearing the song's beat, West questioned S1, saying, "What the heck is this?" This is still a bit confusing. "What the heck is this?" could convey that Kanye hated the beat, which I'm pretty sure is the opposite of what he was saying.
The first half was Swizz Beatz's song "Black on Black Murder" and S1's second half was titled "Black Excellence"; both parts being combined led to the two being credited as the song's producers -> The first half was Swizz Beatz's song "Black on Black Murder", and the second half was S1's "Black Excellence". Their credits are mentioned above and the combination of both parts is elaborated on later in the paragraph.
 Done --K. Peake 20:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)


#### Composition and lyrics
I don't think this is a GA issue, but I notice a lot of WP:OVERCITE in this section.
 Done --K. Peake 20:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
Feel free to completely ignore this: I see this section is organized (production on Murder), (production on Excellence), (lyrics on Murder and lyrics on Excellence). It could be worth reorganizing it into just two paragraphs: one about "Murder", one about "Excellence".
an experimental song I mentioned this above.
"Murder" also includes bongo drums, dark piano, and strums of acoustic guitar. It features additional vocals from Kid Cudi, who contributes humming. -> "Murder" includes bongo drums, dark piano, strums of acoustic guitar, and humming by Kid Cudi.
 Partly done I changed the first bit, yet kept additional vocals in the Kid Cudi section since this is what the lead says and also as an owner of the album I can confirm the liner notes do as well. --K. Peake 20:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
the backing sparse tribal drums dominate its instrumentation after the main drum beat cuts out. I found this confusing. the main drum beat fades out, and sparse tribal drums take over. is clearer.
as "a reverse chop" of the sample This could be unclear to some readers. "sample" and "sample chop" mean the same thing, so the whole sentence could probably be rewritten.
which are part of the beat breakdown too Tiny nitpick, but this sounds a bit informal. It could be changed to which are part of the beat breakdown as well or which are also part of the beat breakdown.
"Murder to Excellence" features additional keys from Caleb McCampbell and for both parts, Jay-Z performs the first verse. feels a bit out of place in this paragraph, maybe you could move it near the first sentence.
the police shooting first before asking any questions -> police brutality?
black power movement figure Fred Hampton that, who was killed
He also addresses friendly fire coming from "the same team", telling them to stop the shooting since there was too much from the enemies already. Sounds informal and could be clarified to something like: He also addresses black-on-black violence, calling it "friendly fire from 'the same team'".
Jay-Z's 2003 track "Lucifer" Link to The Black Album
I don't think VIP should be linked
Jay-Z raps about seeing a small amount of fellow black people who have become successful, to which West responds by comparing them to "the promised land of the O.G.'s" and picturing past events like a black tie would make blacks the last thing expected to be seen, focusing on the problems of the American social system. Chop up this snake.
 Done for the above --K. Peake 20:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)


#### Release and reception
West makes a comparison between the 509 homicides in Chicago and the 314 deaths of US soldiers in Iraq that both occurred in 2008, which was a lyrical reference singled out by critics, and they who mostly preferred his performance to Jay-Z's. Is the very last part necessary?
Changed to what you said, although this is important since it gives viewers awareness West was mostly highlighted on a picture of him which is suitable. --K. Peake 20:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
Again, I don't think music critics needs to be linked.
Writing for Time, Claire Suddath named the song as the album's prime example of Jay-Z and West touching on being successful black men as the latter compares Chicago's murder rate to Iraq, while the former pays the tribute to Henry and he finalized that they chronicle "what's happening in urban communities". Long sentence; Chiraq and Danroy were already mentioned above, so maybe that part could be removed.
 Not done they were not mentioned yet in this section --K. Peake 20:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
adding a feel of celebration -> adding a feeling of celebration?
Rob Harvilla from Spin commended the seriousness of Jay-Z eulogizing Henry and West drawing a comparison between homicides in Chicago to Iraq on "Murder", while he felt the subject matter downgrades to fame and wealth for "Excellence" in spite of the faster beat. Long and confusing. I'd write Rob Harvilla from Spin commended West's comparison of Chicago and Iraq, and the seriousness of Jay-Z's eulogy of Henry. He felt the subject matter on "Excellence" downgrades to fame and wealth in spite of the faster beat. Also, why is it "in spite of" the faster beat?
James Shahan of Urb asserted While not listed at words to watch, "asserted" doesn't feel right to me here. "Said" or "called" would work.
MusicOMH's lauded the song's distinctive production and feels across its "sprawling landscapes", although but thought that the rappers' references to eachothers works fall fell into "frat boy backslapping territory" "Although thought" looks and sounds wrong. Also "distinctive" is the opinion of the reviewer, fix this per WP:VOICE.
In a mixed review, the Chicago Tribune writer Greg Kot praised that Jay-Z and West address the problems of the African-American community on the song then "the two-part tale of destitution and dominance" predictably becomes about them. "predictably becomes about them" is also a WP:VOICE issue, and "about them" is a bit ambiguous.
could not take Swizz Beatz's the song's beat switch seriously. Similar to the "although thought" issue, and technically speaking it would be Noah Goldstein's beat switch.
In Tiny Mix Tapes, Ross Green disregarded the sequencing of the song next to "Made in America" on Watch the Throne as abandoning any foresight or purpose, providing "a convoluted and contradictory take on race relations" that prevails across the album. "disregard" means "ignore". I think criticized is the right word here.
 Done --K. Peake 20:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)


### References
#### Reliability
Ref 15 seems like it was written by a HuffPost contributor. 
 Done nice catch there! --K. Peake 20:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
Everything else looks good 


#### Spot check
6 
7 
19 
20 
a; source doesn't say anything about 2008.
 Not done I can access this book, which says the year and I do not think it needs to be invoked at this point per WP:OVERCITE. --K. Peake 20:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
I see now that the book was supporting this CarbonLollipop talk┊contribs 00:50, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
b; 
c; 
24 


#### Original research
Small issue with ref 20, otherwise this passes criterion 2c. 


#### Misc
Ref 9, 20, and 30 should be marked dead.


### Other
Passes 2a, 2d, and 5. 


#### Neutrality
Seems fine, other than some mistakes with WP:VOICE which I noted above. 


#### Scope
No obvious issues. 


#### Images
Looks good. I noted a few issues with captions above. 


### Result
@Kyle Peake: Per some of the confusing wording, WP:VOICE issues, and HuffPost contributor source, I'm putting this on hold for now. Sorry if I was a bit nitpicky when reviewing the prose. I wish you luck with improving this article! -CarbonLollipop talk┊contribs 02:20, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

@CarbonLollipop: Thanks a lot for this comprehensive review, I have covered all of your points above! --K. Peake 20:59, 23 January 2025 (UTC)
@Kyle Peake: Nice work! I see just a few more issues before I'll pass this:
In a mixed review, the Chicago Tribune writer Greg Kot praised that Jay-Z and West address the problems of the African-American community on the song then "the two-part tale of destitution and dominance" predictably becomes self-centered There's still the issue with "predictably"; it's the opinion of the reviewer. I tried fixing it, but after looking at the source, I don't see anything to suggest he was "praising" their coverage of the problems.
He then pictures past events like a black tie would make blacks the last thing expected to be seen I'm not sure what this means, and I don't see the refs supporting it (the NYT article merely provides the lyrics, and not an interpretation of them). Does the book support this?
Jay-Z references the black power movement figure Fred Hampton, who died on December 4th, the same date the rapper was born and he references this by rapping that "real niggas just multiply". -> Jay-Z raps "real niggas just multiply", referencing the black power movement figure Fred Hampton, who died on December 4th (put a year here?), the same date Jay-Z was born. Also, explain how it is a reference?
a little too maudlin This might just be me, but I had never seen the word "maudlin" before reading this article. Maybe link to wiktionary?
expressed distaste with Jay-Z saying his father died when he was assassinated Unclear, change to something like expressed distaste with Jay-Z saying his father died, when he was actually assassinated
I did a quick search at the MTV News archive and found a handful of sources that could be used for expanding this article in the future. One of them somewhat calls the song "hip hop"; maybe it could be used for the genre. CarbonLollipop talk┊contribs 00:50, 24 January 2025 (UTC)
CarbonLollipop Thanks for a brilliant outline of these problems, I have worked over them now after a busy weekend hope it works! --K. Peake 20:49, 26 January 2025 (UTC)
OK, I'll pass this now. Great work! CarbonLollipop talk┊contribs 23:30, 26 January 2025 (UTC)