# Talk:Aula Magna (Central University of Venezuela)

Some of the text on this page is a modified translation from the Spanish Wikipedia, however there is much more content, with more references, on the English Wikipedia article. Kingsif (talk) 23:05, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Removed from page September 1st, 2018 Kingsif (talk) 22:45, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
"The main video, recording, and reproduction system was donated in 1991 by the Republic of Japan and the Sony company. The central console of sound was bought in 1997 and is also from England."

Did find mention of the Japan claim, since lost the source.
"When it was first built, the hall had a simultaneous translation system for special events and conferences, which was available in several languages ​​and accessible to anyone from his seat by connecting headphones to the front of the armrest. At present, this system has been disconnected, with only some of the wiring remaining in the seats and flooring."
"These panels had been built in the Jorge Rodríguez Square ("Tierra de nadie, UCV"), which is near the building, and then brought inside by the back of the stage before it was finished."

Because Voice of America/Voz de América is US government, their content can be freely uploaded to commons. This video has some frames that could be taken to be uploaded as images for the Aula Magna: https://www.facebook.com/LaVozdeAmerica/videos/1869927089685098/ Kingsif (talk) 20:43, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Development narrative from Newman: [1] Kingsif (talk) 16:57, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
+ more old docs. Kingsif (talk) 02:51, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
+ more Patrick Frank book Kingsif (talk) 01:35, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Aula Magna (Central University of Venezuela)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 18:23, 6 November 2018 (UTC)


### Initial comments
Please could you address the following points:

Acoustics
'The hall was named in the 1980s as one of the five rooms with the best acoustics in the world' has a tag which is still valid;
It took a while to find a source that isn't a dead link; there was a promising better source, but a quick UCV library search finds a book written by Beranek which claims this. diff Kingsif (talk) 23:02, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
'It is also said that "the Aula Magna's interior [...] represents the high-point of Villanueva's interest in the synthesis of the arts' has a tag which is still valid.
The source was named in the ref, added names to article. Kingsif (talk) 23:04, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
References 1, 3, 4, 5, 12, 14, 17, 18 and 28 contain links which cannot be reached or which go to the wrong place.
To disagree, all these work fine: ref 1 (link), ref 3 (link), ref 4 (link), ref 5 (link), ref 12 (link), ref 14 (link), ref 17 (link), ref 18 (link), ref 28 (link). (Refs at time of comment, from the edit on September 26th) Kingsif (talk) 23:14, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Lead section - this is an inadequate summary of the article, and needs to be expanded, some of the information in the lead section is not mentioned elsewhere.
Will work on making this an accurate summary and incorporating information into the article body. Kingsif (talk) 23:14, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Prose - the whole article is clearly written, but some of the sentences are too long to read easily, such sentences would benefit from being split into smaller sentences.
Long sentences aren't errors, but may be poor style, though it all seems readable to me so I don't know where you're looking. I looked over the grammar; I made some minor tweaks but there was nothing actually incorrect. Kingsif (talk) 23:14, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
This is an interesting article which contains plenty of references and lacks personal research, and which covers the subject. The images complement the article well.
I've put the article on hold for seven days to allow folks to address the issues I've brought up. Feel free to contact me on my talk page, or here with any concerns, and let me know one of those places when the issues have been addressed. If I may suggest that you strike out, check mark, or otherwise mark the items I've detailed, that will make it possible for me to see what's been addressed, and you can keep track of what's been done and what still needs to be worked on. Hel-hama 17:40, 8 November 2018 (UTC)


### Further improvements
The remaining points for bringing the article are forthcoming. They will be relatively minor and should not take too long to address, but I feel it is important that my initial comments are addressed first. I will list the remaining points in the next few days. Hel-hama 17:45, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

The remaining area for improving the article up to the required standard to be classed as 'good' was the standard of English. The are numerous examples of poor prose, e.g.,
"A study published in 1955 by the Museum of Modern Art that looked at Latin American architecture also stood impressed and fascinated..."
"It was in the hall, during its inauguration, no less, that several thousand world leaders collectively signed the historical resolution..."
"In line with concerns, during a protest in July 2013 a bus was lit on fire..."
"In late 2014, Copred refitted the interior surface a roof slab of the Plaza Cubierta..."
"...and was open to changing designs..."
As the initial comments I provided were not addressed, I have failed the article based on those points.Hel-hama 18:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Your initial comments weren’t serious issues, and from my replies it’s clear I was working on them. To then give extra feedback but immediately fail the nomination is just dumb. I feel like you failed this prematurely and unnecessarily, and will reopen it. I’d like for someone else to review the nomination, thank you for taking it up, though. Kingsif (talk) 01:10, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Your're welcome. Good luck with the article. Hel-hama 03:11, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Aula Magna (Central University of Venezuela)/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: KJP1 (talk · contribs) 07:30, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
Looks very interesting and happy to pick it up. Sorry you had to wait so long. One thing: I don't read Spanish so shall have to take most of the sources on trust. KJP1 (talk) 07:30, 12 May 2019 (UTC)


### Quick fail criteria assessment
The article completely lacks reliable sources – see Wikipedia:Verifiability.

The topic is treated in an obviously non-neutral way – see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.

There are cleanup banners that are obviously still valid, including cleanup, wikify, NPOV, unreferenced or large numbers of fact, clarifyme, or similar tags.

The article is or has been the subject of ongoing or recent, unresolved edit wars.

The article specifically concerns a rapidly unfolding current event with a definite endpoint.

Articles passes quick-fail assessment. Main review to follow.


### Main review
1. It is reasonably well written.

a (prose):
The prose is generally to a good standard and I'll Pass on this criteria subject to consideration of some suggestions for possible improvements below. 
Lede
A couple of general points. First, you've got a lot of citations in the lede. Given that it's a summary of the main article body content, you might want to think about removing those that don't support direct quotes. Second, it comprises four, rather short, paragraphs. I'd expand them a little. Now, specific points:
Will work on this Kingsif (talk) 23:53, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
"The most notable feature of the hall is its acoustic "clouds", an artistic and practical function" - Link acoustics at first mention. Perhaps, "The most notable features of the hall are its acoustic "clouds", which serve both aesthetic and practical functions"?
Will link and rewrite, should it still be plural if the "clouds"/perhaps capitalized "Clouds" in general is considered a single piece - i.e. how about "The most notable feature of the hall is its acoustic "clouds", which serves both aesthetic and practical functions"? Kingsif (talk) 23:53, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
"and also because academic, artistic, and political events have taken place within it" - perhaps, "and also because of the academic, artistic, and political events which have taken place within it"?
Will rewrite Kingsif (talk) 23:53, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
Construction
"When the University City was commissioned to be built in 1943, a committee was formed to analyse options for the planning" - Not sure "to be built" is necessary. Perhaps, "When the University City was commissioned in 1943, a committee was formed to analyse planning options"?
Works well Kingsif (talk) 23:53, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
"As well as choosing the location near Central Caracas, this commission also recommended basing the project for the campus on similar endeavours, naming the recently opened National University of Colombia in Bogotá with Leopold Rother's "urban project" there as one" - This reads a little oddly. Perhaps, "As well as choosing the location near Central Caracas, the committee also recommended basing the plan for the campus on similar models, including Leopold Rother's "urban project" at the recently opened National University of Colombia in Bogotá"?
Thank you for the copyedit! Kingsif (talk) 23:53, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
"Designs for the central campus complex were started in 1944, with early studies and a "tentative" plan by Villanueva." - This is missing something? And "tentative" is not quite right. Perhaps, "Designs for the central campus complex were begun in 1944, with Carlos Raúl Villanueva drawing up early studies and an outline plan"?
"and the design had to have "substantial changes" in 1949" - perhaps, "and the design underwent substantial changes in 1949"? and I wouldn't have "substantial changes" in quotes unless it is a direct quote, in which case it needs a cite.
"The final design was done in 1952" - "The final design was complete by 1952"?
Above three, also thanks Kingsif (talk) 23:53, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
"The ability to make changes is said by experts to be not only because of Venezuela thriving in these years, but also because of Villanueva's likeable personality, and that out of all of his successes during this period, the Aula Magna is an "unprecedented work"". - This seems to be saying at least two things. First, adaptations to the plan were possible due to Venezuela's buoyant economy and to Villanueva's flexible personality. Second that the work was "unprecedented". I'd split them into something like, "The ability to make changes to the plans was due in part to Venezuela's economic prosperity and in part to Villanueva's accommodating personality. Of his works during this period, the Aula Magna is considered unprecedented." Even here, I'm not quite sure what "unprecedented" means here. Does it mean, "he hadn't done something like it before"? In which case, "ground-breaking" / "revolutionary"?
"It is also written that Villanueva was adept at adapting in his work, as well as embodying Modernism, and was open to changing designs as the ideas of construction naturally moved" - I don't think "It is also written that" is needed. And it's another sentence that's trying to do too much, covering both his adaptability and his Modernist approach. Perhaps, "Villanueva was capable of adapting his work, while remaining true to his Modernist principles, and was open to changing designs as ideas for the construction evolved"?
"Even Villanueva's designs invoke synthesis of art as well as living architecture, describing buildings as "movements" in the key (of which the Aula Magna is IV)" - What's the "Even" doing here? I'm afraid I'm not getting this sentence. What's a "synthesis of art as well as living architecture"? Who's doing the describing? And "in the key" of what? Sorry, can't make a suggestion as I'm really not sure what it's trying to say.
Will work on the above three (you know what, I'll start editing and respond to the whole review, thank you for the notes!) Kingsif (talk) 23:53, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
"as a culmination of its other elements" - Are there other culminations? "the culmination"?
"started on November 28, 1952, with its end date set as March 31, 1953" - that is so incredible a construction period that I think it really needs a direct citation. Reading on, are we sure that completion date wasn't March 31 1954, with a fourteen month build period.
"architect Carlos Raúl Villanueva" - link and introduce him on first meeting in the para. above.
"The hall was baptized and opened on December 3, 1953 (in a small ecclesiastical and ceremonial act)" - see above re. dates query. And I don't think one baptizes a building. Perhaps, "The hall was dedicated and opened on December 3, 1953 with a small religious ceremony"?
"Reportedly, when Villanueva first entered the completed hall (Calder's clouds newly painted), he threw his arms up and shouted that it was tremendous" - Couple of things. Not sure we need the "Reportedly" and we've not met Calder before and didn't know he designed the "clouds". His intro. and role, from the next para., need moving up.
Specifications: Acoustics
"The hall was named in the 1980s, seemingly by Leo Beranek in review, as one of the five rooms with the best acoustics in the world"  - Well, did he or didn't he? And who is he? There's a link, so perhaps - "The acoustics engineer Leo Beranek ranked the hall in the world's top five concert halls for its acoustics"?
"thanks to a system that combines technology and art: the Flying Saucers or Floating Clouds designed by the North American artist and engineer Alexander Calder" - the intro for Calder's needed above so perhaps, "due to the arrangement of panels, called the 'Flying Saucers' or 'Floating Clouds', developed by Calder"?
"The initial destination of the clouds was not inside the hall" - perhaps, "The clouds were not originally intended for the interior of the hall"?
"the shape of the structure would make the acoustics terrible" - A bit colloquial. Perhaps, "the shape of the structure would detrimentally affect the acoustics"
"The structure of the panels, or clouds, is a steel frame containing two pieces..." - Perhaps, "The structure of each of the panels, or clouds"? Or better, "Each panel, or cloud, comprises a steel frame..." And I'd put in a semi-colon after "secured together".
"Short ton" needs a link.
"The real ceiling of the room is 9.8 feet (3 m) above a false plaster ceiling installed below" - got a bit confused by the "above/below" here. Is it something like, "The real ceiling of the room is 9.8 feet (3 m) above a false plaster ceiling which supports the panelling and facilitates..."?
"Artistically, art critic Phyllis Tuchman noted" - not sure what "Artistically" is doing here?
"It is also said, by Helen Gyger and Patricio del Real, that..." - Another superfluous, "It is also etc." Why not just, “The critics HG and PdelR write..."?
"Floating Clouds" - we need consistency for these. Italics, Floating Clouds, I think not, or double, "Floating Clouds", or single, 'Floating Clouds' quote marks? I prefer the last.
"One of the most interesting examples of this is the seats" - says who? "The seats exemplify this. They are made from the wool.."?
"Another noteworthy element" - says who? "Another element"?
"creating between them a kind of vacuum that prevents both the exit of sound and the entrance of noise from the outside. On the balcony level, the doors function the same, though both the internal and external doors are made of wood. There is also a folded wooden canopy positioned eight meters above the stage to soften sound" - Perhaps, "creating a vacuum between them that prevents both the exit of sound from the hall and excludes external noise. On the balcony level, the doors function in the same way, though both the internal and external doors are made of wood. There is also a folded wooden canopy positioned eight meters above the stage to further soften sound"?
"The precise design of the hall includes even the original carpet that covered the aisles of the room, which were cashmere, which aids acoustics. However, in the 1990 renovations the carpets were replaced with a synthetic material" - perhaps, "The original design of the hall included aisle carpets made of Cashmere wool, which also helped the acoustics. However, during renovations in the 1990s, the carpets were replaced with ones made from synthetic material"?
Lighting systems
"The lighting system is versatile" - delete "system" to avoid close repetition? "having two main lighting systems" and delete "lighting" for the same reason.
"a series of instruments to produce events with lighting effects" - "a series of instruments to produce lighting effects"?
"The most interesting thing about the lighting in the Aula Magna is that the former main console was a duplicate of a lighting organ created in England, by Strand Lighting, who had adapted the keyboard of an organ to operate as a lighting control console" - Again, who says so? Why not, "The former main lighting console was a duplicate of a lighting organ, created in England by Strand Lighting, which adapted the keyboard of an organ to operate as a lighting control console"?
Structure and façade
" inspired by the classic Greco-Roman theatre" - Link?
"designed like an amphitheater and conch shell" - "or"?
"Equally, it is said that", and later "it is described as" - superfluous.
"A study published in 1955 by the Museum of Modern Art that looked at Latin American architecture also stood impressed and fascinated" - Not sure a study can stand "impressed and fascinated". Perhaps just "also noted the hall was..."
"This creates some notable facts about the hall" - Perhaps just, "incongruous features"?
"you can see many works of art" - colloquial. Perhaps just "are"?
Events
"It was in the hall, during its inauguration, no less, that several thousand world leaders collectively signed the historical resolution declaring Communism a threat to world peace" - A few things. I think the "no less" is unnecessary. "Several thousand" world leaders sounds an awful lot. Were they all leaders? And was "the", probably, "a", declaration particularly “historical”? It sounds rather par for the course for a generalísimo. It doesn't have an article on here? As an aside, I don't suppose the Lincoln Portrait was performed at the Aula Magna? That would warrant a mention.
"Hausmann, from a famous family of anti-Chavistas" - I think "anti-Chavists" will need some explanation. Perhaps, "from a family with a history of opposition to Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez"?
"One of the company's productions of Jesus Christ Superstar in the hall, on March 7, 2010, was attacked by masked assailants with tear gas before the show, harming the actors" - I think you might need to explain a little more why Superstar was attacked, as part of a campaign of intimidation, rather than a protest against Lloyd Weber's music.
Preservation
"the Aula Magna was inscribed as a UNESCO World Heritage Site in the year 2000" - "designated"?
"The organisation" - "UNESCO"?
"a growing number of students" - "the growing number of students"?
"In line with concerns" - "UNESCO's fears were subsequently realized; during a protest in July 2013..."?
"with donators including Banco Mercantil" - "donors"?
"it has been said that" - by whom?
"Still, in 2015 an art historian and industrial designer commended that the hall" - perhaps, "Despite these setbacks, in 2015 an art historian and industrial designer noted that the hall..."?
"$392,919 at the official rate of the time, or $2,943 on the black market" - this sounds very low, even at black market rates! Can you check it? There's no source given.
"The hall also aims to preserve tradition of the hall as well, with sources saying that its "continued reason for being" is the "proud" moment when UCV students enter every year to graduate and be inducted as "ucevistas", and that this should extend for generations" - I can't read the source but this reads rather oddly. Apart from some superfluous wording, "as well", it's not clear what the source is saying. That the main raison d'être for the hall is its use as the graduation venue for UCV students and that this needs to be perpetuated? Can't really suggest an alternative.
b (MoS):
Not my forte but as far as I can see it meets MoS:
Thanks, some work done. Re. Lincoln Portrait sadly no, I feel it may have been performed at a baseball stadium due to this source saying it was in a 6000+ seat outdoor stadium. Kingsif (talk) 01:19, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

a (references)
As noted at the outset, my inability to read Spanish is a major handicap and therefore I have had to AGF more than one would usually do. I have checked the following, however, and with one exception, they all look good so will be happy to AGF regarding the others and Pass on Sources, subject to consideration of Source 7.
Source 2 - Although in Spanish, one can see it supports the text.
Source 7 - This appears to be from the Spanish Wikipedia Architecture Portal. It's an impressive portal but we can't really source Wiki from Wiki. Can they be replaced?
Source 9 - I don't have/have access to this, but it's a sound source.
Source 10 - Supports the text.
Source 11 - Looks fine but it would help to give the page number as it's 115 pages long.
Source 13 - Fine.
Sources 15 and 20 - Look fine but seem to be the same work, cited slightly differently. Should be combined.
Source 22 - All good.
Source 23 - Can't access but looks sound. As an aside, I've found at FAC - if you're thinking of that - some reviewers much dislike Google Books links, even when they give a snippet. The site is, rightly, seen as commercial and I tend to use WorldCat for this reason.
Source 24 - Good.
Source 25 - Fine.
Source 26 - A blog but I think it will do here.
Source 27 - Fine.
Source 28 - Fine.
Source 31 - Excellent source.
Source 32 - Can't access but looks sound.
Source 34 - Fine.
Source 36 - Fine. Isn't it an expanded, English language version of Source 2?
Source 37 - Needs a "Subscription required" tag
Source 38 - Fine.
b (citations to reliable sources):
The range of sources look reliable.
c (OR):
There's no indication of OR.
d (No evidence of plagiarism or copyright violations):
Comes up at 19% on the Copyvio Detector but that's only the Bernstein quote.
Some work done tidying up Kingsif (talk) 01:51, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
3. It is broad in its scope

a (major aspects)
Covers what seem to me, as one who'd not heard of the building, to be all of the necessary major aspects.
b (focused):
It doesn't stray from the main focus on the building.
Thank you Kingsif (talk) 01:51, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
4. It follows the neutral point of view policy

As far as the building goes, all is good. I detect just a slight hint of anti-Maduro/Chavez sentiment, e.g., "from a famous family of anti-Chavistas", "from the Chavez and then Maduro government stances of "scorn for" and subsequent defunding of universities and "marginalisation of culture"." The first doesn't have a source, and I can't check the second as it requires a subscription, but I'd just make sure the points are fully supported by the cite.
By "famous family of anti-Chavistas" I simply meant that they are all well-known for this sentiment - Michel Hausmann's father and sister are notoriously vocal in the US, and his uncle is currently a political prisoner. Direct quotes, though from a source that sways on its view of Maduro. I can simplify that. Kingsif (talk) 01:51, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
5. It is stable

All stable.
6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):
The images are mostly great and add much to the article. They all appear appropriately licensed. Two - the graduation and the orchestra - aren't top quality but there may be nothing better to illustrate the points being made.
b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Captions are fine. 
Thanks Kingsif (talk) 01:51, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
7. Overall: 

Pass/Fail:
A great article on a fascinating building. Well-sourced and well-illustrated. My concerns are mainly around prose clarity and Source7. Look forward to discussing/passing when you've had a chance to have a look. Shall put it On Hold now. Let me know if you need more time than the usual 7 days. KJP1 (talk) 12:43, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
@KJP1: Let me know if you have more feedback! Kingsif (talk) 01:52, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
@KJP1: I've now removed all refs to source7, with all info covered by other sources (it must have been left as better sources were found). Thanks. Kingsif (talk) 03:04, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
@Kingsif: - Apologies - am abroad at present and only logging in occasionally. Shall try to take a look tomorrow. KJP1 (talk) 06:01, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
Kingsif - First off, apologies that this took longer to finalise than planned. I had thought I could wrap it up before my leave, but that didn't prove possible. But thanks for considering the suggestions. It looks good, and I'm pleased to Pass it. Congratulations and all the best. KJP1 (talk) 09:35, 4 June 2019 (UTC)