# Talk:Battle of Mynydd Hyddgen

Armies section starts "The settlers were reinforced by" but never explains who the settlers were. The next sentence begins "This was Owain's early base". What was? The settlers? Were the settlers Welsh?
The revision history shows an explanatory sentence existed till 2014: "The battle began when English settlers of Pembrokeshire and settlers of Flemish descent ... attacked the small army of Glyndŵr..." Cannot that, or a similar brief background to the battle, be restored? The article is incomprehensible without it. 80.175.14.26 (talk) 13:34, 15 July 2025 (UTC)

I don't see where this was ever properly explained in the page history, but yes, these were Anglo-Flemish settlers that came up from Pembrokeshire via Carmarthen. That's not the only problem with this page, mind. I'll see if I can find some time to rewrite it. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:39, 15 July 2025 (UTC)

I started off looking for sources from the victorian / edwardian period that might doubt the battle to flesh out what Livingston might have been getting at with his "if it even happened" title but not much luck but these are some source that might be helpful anyway.
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A Topographical Dictionary of Wales: Comprising the Several Counties, Cities ... : Samuel Lewis : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Mentions raids by Glyndwr in 1401 older source but it would enable sourcing to explicitly some named places that were raided at least given that it doesnt appear to be in anyway controversial that raiding occurred.
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Owain Glyndwr and his times : T., T.F : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Another older source no description of the battle it even says of the 1401 campaign that he wont describe it in detail because of lack of source material. Thats the closest I could find to anyone doubting the battles existence.
But its short is a decent summary perhaps that might help frame what should be most relevant to include in the background / aftermath sections to make them relevant and informative.
Tout was a professional academic historian and a fellow of the royal historical society
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Owen Glyndwr and the last struggle for Welsh independence, with a brief sketch of Welsh history; : Bradley, A. G. (Arthur Granville), 1850-1943 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Again older, certainly also with some romantic treatment but it mentions the battle explicitly on the pages linked, pp 110 onwards details background information (the tensions he had with marcher lords) which none of the other sources cited already that I have access to go into great detail on.
pp 145 also talks about him raiding in the summer of 1401.
But while Bradley had a degree im not sure they were an academic historian more of a travel or popular writer perhaps even if more on the serious side? Im not 100% sure what they were but its certainly one of the longer and more extensive works on the period.

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Archaeologia cambrensis
An older historical journal? page 30 onwards (and a little before) discusses the battle and the rebellion explicitly naming the battle. It also is the oldest source where I found the 500 man figure for Owens force from. 
But I do wonder if this may simply be authors synthesising 1500 from the annals and then some other document (bradley repeats this or may be the original source I'm not sure) that says Owen had 1/3 of the Anglo-Flemish force. And going 1500/3 = 500 LeChatiliers Pupper (talk) 13:47, 12 September 2025 (UTC)

J. E. Lloyd, Owen Glendower (Owain Glyndwr), (Felinfach: Llanerch Press, 1992, orig. 1931)
I cant seem to find online or digitised.
54-114-1-SM.pdf by Gideon Brough (modern + academic
Calls it "In 1931, J. E. Lloyd described the outbreak of the revolt in his landmark work, Owen Glendower (Owain Glyndwr)."
Gideon himself only mentions this battle in one line citing Lloyd and also Rees Davies whom Gideon also speaks about as being a good source.
Just another note on source clean up @Sirfurboy the Rees Revolt book is cited as just one chapter - whose pages arent used in the article in line citations with instead pages in other chapters
pp 266 of Rees that Gideon cites is also never cited so perhaps useful info there. LeChatiliers Pupper (talk) 14:21, 12 September 2025 (UTC)
From Rees - pp 266-267 quotes
"All in all, the elusiveness of Glyn Dŵr and his plans and the somewhat disorganized nature of the news-gathering and news-reporting facilities in Wales made it difficult to gather accurate information about the revolt and to assemble a coherent picture of its overall progress.4
Perhaps ‘coherent’ is an ill-chosen word in this context. Much of the strength of Glyn Dŵr's revolt, as so often in guerrilla movements, lay in its unpredictability. Surprise was its trump card. Between April 1401 and June 1402 it was transformed from a dormant local conspiracy into a national rebellion by three bolts from the blue: the capture of Conway Castle (1 April 1401), the seizure of Reginald Grey (spring 1402), and the massacre at Bryn Glas (22 June 1402). It was as unpredictable in its geographical range as it was mercurial in its actions: what showed its rich potential as a guerrilla movement in 1401–2 was the way it broke out from its base in the mountain fastnesses of Snowdonia to erupt into dashing victories at Hyddgen in the Pumlumon range in mid-Wales (summer 1401) and, even more dramatically, at Pilleth not far from the English border (June 1402). It was to be part of its strength throughout its course that the revolt was not tied down to any particular area; it was its very fluidity which served it in good stead. That is why it is difficult, even misleading, to try to express its success cartographically. There came to be, it is true, areas which were regarded as rebel redoubts and virtually no-go areas for the government: north-west Wales beyond the River Conwy, and more specifically Snowdonia and the uplands of the commote of Nantconwy around Dolwyddelan, were regularly identified by contemporaries as such districts. But while virtually no area of Wales was exempt from rebel activities and raids after 1403"
Emphasis my own the "three bolts from the blue" sound like they warrent inclusion in an improved aftermath / background section. LeChatiliers Pupper (talk) 14:34, 12 September 2025 (UTC)
Thanks for these. Archaeologia Cambrensis is indeed an older historical journal and well reputed (see our page on it). "could not have exceeded 500" is language that, to me, suggests this was the original research of the author of that piece. Some estimates for Glyndŵr's force are lower, but none suggest it is much higher, and indicative would be former skirmishes which indicate his support remained limited at the time.Also, on the doubt about the battle, I continue to await my library loan of Lloyd's book. I suspect, however, that the doubt is this: we only have one contemporary account, and what we lack in particular is mentions in dispatches regarding ransoms and such like. The argument from silence is an important argument in historiography, but it is answerable (e.g., because ransom would only occur if any of the commanders of the English army were captured, and there are plausible reasons why none were here). Anyway, I'm guessing. I'll let you know what Lloyd has to say as soon as I have it. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:34, 12 September 2025 (UTC)
On the three bolts from the blue: yes we could mention them. Note, however, that the seizure of Conwy castle in 1401 was orchestrated by brothers Rhys ap Tudur and Gwilym ap Tudur. R. R. Davies cautions the extent to which these disparate forces could be seen as coordinated at this stage in the rebellion. It was a bolt from the blue for the English, but we should be careful not to make it into a victory for Glyndŵr, which would move beyond the evidence. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:45, 12 September 2025 (UTC)
Sure sure but the aftermath doesnt acknowledge anyone else contributing to the welsh rising alot of focus is given to Hyddgen maybe too much I am not sure
Anyway thats all me off loaded all my sources / feedback I look forwards to seeing the article as it develops LeChatiliers Pupper (talk) 14:53, 12 September 2025 (UTC)
On the doubt as to the battle taking place, I have made some progress. I wrote to Michael Livingston to ask who may have raised doubts about the battle in the past, and he was good enough to write back, and to say he will comb through his notes, but that his recollection was that there was doubt about the battle in some older English sources. He said: "Lloyd hints at it in his classic work on Owain. It seemed useful to me to acknowledge that potential issue while ultimately rejecting it."I have also now been able to consult Lloyd. As per Livingston's article, the relevant passage is on page 39, which reads:At the opening of the summer he appeared with a small following in the wilds of Plynlimmon and there, in a remote mountain glen,, signally defeated on the banks of the river Hyddgen a large force which had been gathered in West Wales for his overthrow.3
Where footnote 3 reads: The sole authority for the battle of Hyddgen (or Hyddgant) is Ann. O. Gl., but some such success is required to account for the situation as it appeared to the king at Wallingford. In the Hyddgen valley (which lies in Montgomeryshire, just north of Plynlimmon) are two blocks of white quartz, sixty feet apart, which are known to tradition as 'Cerryg Cyfamod Owain Glyn Dŵr' (The Covenant Stones of Owen Glendower) (Inventory of Ancient Monuments in Wales, Montgomeryshire [1911], no. 911).
So the doubt arises from a argument from silence, which is not fallacious in historiography (as per that link). But neither is it conclusive. We have a single contemporary source, and that is reason enough for a historian to treat this with caution, yet each historian who has looked at the matter, certainly in more modern sources, seems to agree with Lloyd. Something certainly happened, and the only thing in the frame is this battle.I'll try to draft something appropriate.I know I am replying to this one point and others are raised above. I'll get to them all in time. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:39, 17 September 2025 (UTC)
I have made a few improvements, added another good source (Brough, 2017), and removed all references to 500 men on the Welsh side. I haven't dealt fully with the stuff sourced to Pugh (1997), but I note that Grant (2011) follows Pugh, or else uses the same sources. Grant is also the only source I found that mentioned 500 on Glyndŵr's side. But I have similar concerns about Grant as I do about Pugh. Grant is a historical writer of some repute, but not an academic historian. The source we have on the page is his 1001 Battles That Changed the Course of History, but the only source he gives for that piece is Annals. So... we are not quite there yet, I think. It may be that all the Pugh/Grant stuff is better just left out. Or we could write it as "some speculate that..." or similar. Any thoughts? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:33, 25 September 2025 (UTC)
The gentleman antiquarian Thomas Owen Morgan, writing in the North Wales Chronicle in 1850, recounts this battle and says Glyndŵr was heavily outnumbered for his force did not amount to 500 men. A curious 19th century way of phrasing, that does not preclude that the number was only 120, but is the earliest reference I can find to the 500 number. Not amounting to 500 could easily become "as many as 500" in those following. In any case, he gives a computation that derives the number 480 by arguing that at the time there were three archers for each swordsman. This then is the source of the higher figure, whatever we might make of it now. I'll work up a reference to that anyway as it is an interesting account. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:24, 28 September 2025 (UTC)
The source A Topographical Dictionary of Wales: Comprising the Several Counties, Cities ... : Samuel Lewis : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive mentions raiding in 1401, but the detail is the abbey at Cwmhir and Radnor castle from where his "posting himself on Plinlimmon Hill". Plynlimon is the higher peak adjacent to Mynydd Hyddgen, so this is aftermath stuff (according with the view of historians that the attack on the abbey was probably in 1402. That is, it could be later 1401, or 1402, but it does not seem to be the raiding that led to the force being sent. Likewise the attack on the castle was either 1401 or 1403, but the doubt is such that it would necessarily be second half of 1401). Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:41, 3 October 2025 (UTC)