# Talk:Apple and unions

By virtue of the contentious topics covered here, the viewpoints will be highly critical, I am inspired by this essay Wikipedia:Criticisms of society may be consistent with NPOV and reliability. Covering a large company like Apple is a challenge, but so is building the largest encyclopedia. Future improvements will need to look in depth in the various worker mechanisms particularly in Foxconn and Apple's unique culture in the US of employee retention/secrecy Shushugah (he/him • talk) 00:39, 29 August 2021 (UTC) 

(Feel free to directly add/remove as they're used in article.

Apple admits breaking the law in China; Fortune Mag
Uigher camps WaPo article
Verite auditor kicked out of China; Wall Street Journal
IndustriALL flags iPhone 6 labour violations Philippines
2012 Atlantic; why apple retail workers should unionize
LEE, CHING KWAN (2016). "Precarization or Empowerment? Reflections on Recent Labor Unrest in China". The Journal of Asian Studies. 75 (2): 317–333. ISSN 0021-9118.
Apple shuttle drivers/teamsters union
SIWA, JANE ALEXANDRA; VILIRAN, JESSICA (2016). "Taming Class Conflict? Industrial Peace and Workers' Resistance in the Philippines, 2001-2016". Philippine Sociological Review. 64: 41–72. ISSN 0031-7810.
~ Shushugah (he/him • talk) 00:39, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Specific text to be added or removed: a sentiment mirrored on the union busting episode of Last Week Tonight with John Oliver.
Reason for the change: This phrasing is original research and should not be included in the sentence. Moreover, the reference cited is a primary source, and the clause above is a user's interpretation of that primary source (the episode). We need a secondary source to establish verifiability and that the statement is due.
References supporting change: N/A
AlexEng(TALK) 08:48, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

I made the change you suggested and agree with you. Unsure if you have a conflict of interest, but {{Request edit}} template is for editors with a WP:COI. Apple worker organizations can be freely edited by anyone otherwise. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 10:49, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
Thanks, Shushugah. I do have a COI with respect to Apple Inc. as disclosed on my user page.  To avoid even the appearance of impropriety, I keep a wide berth from articles even tangentially related to the subject, except through this template. Thanks again for the quick response! AlexEng(TALK) 11:57, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

I think a quote should be added to the #Apple Together section, after the statement about the walkout.

Specific text to be added: According to Janneke Parrish, a former Apple employee involved in organizing the walkout, it is “significant” that workers are speaking out against Apple, despite the fact that the number of employees participating represents a small fraction of Apple’s 80,000 US employees.
Reason for the change: The HuffPost piece has a salient quote from one of the organizers. I also think that citing the total number of US employees provides context for the size of the action.
References supporting change: HuffPost piece already in the article.
AlexEng(TALK) 03:44, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done This is an opinionated statement from a source involved in this action, and therefore not recommended for its inclusion into the article. It would be better to add analysis of the action from people not involved in this campaign, such as academics who studied this action. Z1720 (talk) 16:17, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Currently the various unionization efforts have a subcategory title listing the name of the efforts, Fruit Stand Workers United, AppleCore etc.. and one of the first initiatives was called Apple Retail Workers Union as in "Cory Moll launched the Apple Retail Workers Union in San Francisco, citing compensation, pay, benefits and hiring processes as motivations."
I don't have a strong opinion on it one way or another, but I think there's confusion whether it's a formal union, or something we Wiki editors came up with as a category name. Pinging @SquareInARoundHole~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 14:22, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't think anyone will be searching for "Apple Retail Workers Union", nor will there be any new content about it. If we add that subcategory, the paragraphs after the first one do not make any sense as they are unconnected to that effort, and more a generalization as it stands in the chronological ordering. SquareInARoundHole (talk) 15:55, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
I reworked it with the news that Apple Together is a solidarity union. I added the Apple Retail Workers Union back in with the new structure. Let me know what you think. SquareInARoundHole (talk) 17:09, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

@Avatar317 @Sosorrysalty! I re-inserted relevant criticism of Foxconn union process by Fair Labor Association that was likely accidental, but hard to detect with the major rewrites. Regarding the rewrites in Apple Inc. and unions § China I personally found the working conditions background quite relevant and helpful context for understanding the challenges/dynamics of Chinese trade unionism. Some of it is borrowed from Foxconn and unions § China and Apple supply chain. 
I do think working conditions be trimmed to minimum, because an article about working conditions or human rights violation are entire subjects themselves and other country sections would need them. However when we cover collective bargaining demands or motivations for unionization, I see working conditions as inseparable. Could you envision a middle ground? I also did not consider any of this to be WP:OR nor WP:SYNTH but it's a fair question of how to keep WP:FOCUS. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 11:17, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

When RS's discuss unionization drives as motivated by X and Y specific working conditions, then those should be included; other working conditions problems belong in different articles.  I agree with you that: "when we cover collective bargaining demands or motivations for unionization, I see working conditions as inseparable", but that should be only when RS's cover unionization drives and certain specific bad work conditions are mentioned as part of that same news coverage.
To illustrate, bad working conditions can involve widespread race-based or sex-based harassment by OTHER CO-WORKERS (not by management) and this may not be a motivation for unionization. ---Avatar317(talk) 00:12, 12 September 2024 (UTC)