# Talk:Bengal famine of 1943

Did Churchill Exacerbate the Bengal Famine? (The Churchill Project at Hillsdale.edu)
I am too exhausted by all this, and by the insular fake that is FAC (yes, it's all an oversized fake, Wikipedians... stop believing in FAC as legitimate.. no Santa Claus, no Easter Bunny, and definitely no legitimate FAC)... too exhausted to ever, ever, ever look at another source again. I decline. I refuse. No sources. Ever.
I also won't pursue this thread after starting it. I'm done with this.
But this Hillsdale page is gonna keep popping up. It's a fairly skillfully-woven fig leaf thrown over actual events. So I'll start this thread to let others examine its contents.
A few errors jump out:
Check the chronology of the events listed very closely! That page has Churchill requesting wheat for India after the food crisis was abated.
The Hillsdale article likes to make the point that India as a whole had a surplus of grain. But there was not a famine across India as a whole. It was just Bengal and Orissa.
Suggesting that Churchill helped the crisis by appointing Wavell is deeply misleading. Wavell fought Churchill and the Cabinet. Wavell threatened to resign at one point. Wavell also had absolutely zero positive to say about Churchill. I don't recall the quotes... you can look them up.OneOffUserName (talk) 00:55, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

After reading through the current version of this article, I felt very concerned that it did not give a fair and neutral depiction of the topic, insofar that it never addresses it as a genocide, even as a minority perspective. The most recent edit to attempt to address it as one was apparently reverted on the grounds of "insufficient evidence."
I understand that whether or not the British administration simply misgoverned the circumstance or knowingly starved the rural population is a matter of debate, but I think it is very important to the content of the article to provide, at least in some part, a depiction of the genocide narrative, as this is a common view. This would be analogous to & consistent with Wikipedia's coverage of the Holodomor, addressing the accusation of genocide readily in the introductory paragraphs of that article.
I'm bringing this to the talk page so as to garner consensus and to show my good faith towards resolving this problem appropriately. In the coming days I'll be providing some edits to better integrate the genocide perspective into the content of this article unless forced to do otherwise by consensus.
Thanks,
Altoids0 (talk) 01:31, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

When you describe it as a common view, do you mean common in popular literature and websites, or do you mean a common scholarly view? If you wish to build consensus, you'll need to say what sources you propose using. --Worldbruce (talk) 04:32, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
A genocide by whom and of whom? By the British (led by Churchill) of Indians? By the Raj of its constituents? By the Indian provincial government of Bengal (headed up by a Muslim) of its constituents?   By the Japanese who had bombed Burmese rice to smithereens of Bengal's rice eaters?  By the grain-hoarding merchants of Calcutta of their customers? By the Hindu absentee landlords of East Bengal of their Muslim tenant-farmers and landless laborers? Or, by the mostly Hindu, Indian men—who in a last-ditch bid to save the patriline and unconversant with the Birkenhead drill, had slinked away to the cities— of the abandoned women and children of rural Bengal? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:10, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
I've been thinking about this article for years. To me it seems there is an empirical, objective, acid test of determining the turning point (not necessarily the cause): Bengal under Linlithgow, and Bengal under Wavell. I think the real turning point is here: "Auriol Law-Smith's discussion of contributing causes of the famine also lays blame on the British Government of India, primarily emphasising Viceroy Linlithgow's lack of political will to 'infringe provincial autonomy' by using his authority to remove interprovincial barriers, which would have ensured the free movement of life-saving grain." Yes, all the factors Foweler&fowler mentioned above made the crisis much, much, much worse. [Although he/she forgot to mention the UK military's very, very significant negative impact.] Everyone and everything mentioned above had a hand in making it worse. But if Linlithgow had the political will to use his emergency powers (he still had such emergency powers, but I forget the name of the act that granted them) to say "What? People are starving? Send in grain from other provinces!!" then the outcome would have been different. Yes, Linlithgow's problem was huge and was significantly compounded by a basic lack of understanding of the problem (previous famines had always been caused by drought). But a lack of food is fixed by an influx of food, simple and plain. India as a whole already had enough to share with Bengal, as Wavell correctly perceived, and Wavell addressed the issue correctly. So on this view... the fact that this event fell during the intersection of two key events in global history 1) the transition period (broadly defined) between British and Indian rule (as noted even by those at the time), and 2) a huge freaking World War, is probably the crux of the problem. Linlithgow focused on the political setting rather than the simple facts of "need food, so get food, and damn the politics of it all". The good crop months later nearly eliminated the food crisis, but the food crisis could only have been a case (perhaps serious) of food distress in the absence of inter-provincial barriers. So there ya go. My two cents. Auriol Law-Smith hit the nail on the head... No way on earth I'll edit anything in the article tho. Too many POV warriors from both sides (tho the UK folks rule FAC, of course).OneOffUserName (talk) 03:02, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
Agree. Genocide also has a UN definition "crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part. " The Holomor article does have a section on whether what occured was a genocide though, but that is in part because Stalin seems to have had intent, and because Raphael Lemkin who was the creator of the term genocide  specifically stated that the Holomor was.
Do people think we have a difference in the way we treat the 1971 Bangladesh genocide? Wakelamp d[@-@]b (talk) 22:51, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
I'd ask the editors to consider the treatment of the Bengali Famine, and the questions raised above, juxtaposed against the treatment of Holodomor. Both tragedies resulted in comparable numbers of death (well within an order of magnitude) and lasting human impact. Both can be viewed as the result of a multitude of factors including global upheaval, failures of the prevailing economic system, the (arguably willful) indifference of political leaders, as well as natural factors. The page for Holodomor says the word genocide 100 times, while the page for the Bengal Famine doesn't mention the term once, let alone seriously address the entirely legitimate question.  Yes this speaks more to the treatment of history in general (i.e. communism evil, capitalism good).  The Bengal Famine is treated as an event of complexity, with that complexity used to obscure, bury, and entirely omit legitimate critique of a deeply immoral imperial system, built and maintained by xenophobic capitalists and imperialists.  By contrast Holodomor is treated as an unambiguous genocidal act willfully acted on the Ukrainian people by the Soviet regime, with the complexities of the situations being backgrounded. I concede that it is difficult to treat these subjects with true subjectivity. I doubt that such a goal is even achievable. But this example is a pretty obvious indictment on the inherent biases of this community and this project as a whole. I am not a historian, amateur or otherwise, but I'm educated enough to know that the sources to present a case for genocide are aplenty, if the editors wish to treat them in anything close to the same manner as the sources for Holodomor or other genocides/tragedies are treated. I'd argue the statements of Churchill vis a vis Indians, juxtaposed to the statements of Stalin vis a vis Ukrainians speak for themselves.  Additionally, I would like to note the word 'tragedy' only appears twice in this article as opposed to 11 times for Holodomor. The word "tragedy" is undoubtedly a subjective value judgement. Is this distinction indicative of a more dispassionate academic approach or is it an example an orientalist dehumanization of the victims of the Bengali Famine. 69.51.119.18 (talk) 15:12, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

You've raised many points. First, as a test of your thesis that this famine can be equated with Holodomor, I would suggest that you get a piece of paper and a pen. Draw a vertical line straight down the middle of the page. Label one side "UK actions (and inaction) in Bengal". On the other side write "Soviet actions (and inaction) in Holodomor". Be careful that the lists are very specific about the duration of each action, and the numbers of people affected. For example, (from my very poor memory... stop me if I'm wrong) yeah the UK seized some rice...only once... and not too much, IIRC. On the Soviet side, grain seizures and taxes were immensely greater. Then take a look at the list of "seven crucial policies" in Causes of the Holodomor. I won't copy/paste here, but the list includes deeply brutal instances of repression. There was also "liquidation of the kulaks as a class"... and "A [Soviet] campaign of political repression, including arrests, deportations, and executions of people proclaimed traitors engaged in sabotaging collectivism" I also see "Immediate cessation of delivery of goods, complete suspension of cooperative and state trade in the villages, and removal of all available goods from cooperative and state stores. Full prohibition of collective farm trade for both collective farms and collective farmers, and for private farmers. Cessation of any sort of credit and demand for early repayment of credit and other financial obligations."... And collectivism itself included things such as to "forcibly [deporting]" Ukrainian Kulaks who opposed its collectivization policies"... I haven't even mentioned other points; the list of atrocities goes on and on. And on. And on. I do not believe these famines can be treated as even vaguely or generally equivalent. ♦ Lingzhi.Random (talk) 15:14, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
Original poster has put their finger on the issue: its one of recognition.  The Holodomor is recognized by the Ukraine government there is no similar position by either the British or Indian governments.  The Colonial viewpoint is deeply rooted in the Western English-speaking world and the Imperial state has successfully obfuscated and covered up the scale of its global atrocities.  It was standard practice around the world.  Ireland, Wales, the American Colonies, Kenya, India, West Africa, the China trade all have had aspects of British Colonial policies implemented.
For example in the American Colonies the British expected them to pay for the French and Indian war!  India got the full Colonial Imperial package: no national flag, Government of India, Viceroy, state politics but no control of budgets, home charges, divide and rule, import restrictions, currency controls, no population wide access to education, non-payment of goods and services are just a few.  The mechanism of their full exploitation remains obscure to most people even Western scholars. (see Dadabhai Naoroji)
Did the British commit genocide when they exported and allocated food for the army; refused all offers of help from Canada and Australia;  and "somehow" 4 million people died, oops?  No it was genocide through utter neglect for human life.  And because they were the rulers then the "buck" stops at 10 Downing St.
The British did make sure that the Famine Inquiry Commission report was thoroughly misleading (see the Nanavati papers); that unlike Churchill's Council of Dominion Prime Ministers India had a Viceroy (V. Hope then A. Wavell); did not have any control over its own budget.  2 million Indians fought for the Empire during WWII; yet their contributions have been white washed (lit.) away.
Cheer up though you can (maybe) post something to Wikipedia till its gets reverted or erased!
Uncovering the brutal truth about the British empire  Germsteel (talk) 06:00, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
So, was it Britains intent to murder 1-3m Bengalis? If not, then no genocide. Have you even considered how the actions of Bengali "Kulaks" and the Japanese invasion of Burma played a role? 2A00:23C4:3E44:2C01:89C2:83A4:E92E:118C (talk) 15:47, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
Thats not true. A minister in Nehru's government wrote a book about how it was genocide.
So many years later does the Indian government care about popularizing the view that it was genocide? Well, no. Why not? I don't know. Maybe they think they have better things to do with their time. But to say that it was never the view of anyone just shows that you haven't dug around enough beyond the British party line. MHGA2024 (talk) 01:43, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
Don't tell a lie. Noone real scholar blame Churchill for creating so called engineering famine. Noone scholar called Bengal famine as "genocide". Causes of Bengal famine is dispute. Some researchers like Mark B Tauger, Peter Bowbrick, Omkar Goswami, M Mufakharul Islam supported FAD causes. Amartya Sen and some others support FEE theory. Mark B Tauger, Peter Bowbrick, Omkar Goswami, M Mufakharul Islam, Amartya Sen, Kaushik Basu, Cormac O Grada, Paul R Greenough, Tim Dyson, Arup Maharatna nobody blame sir Winston Churchill for deliberately creating famine.
https://martinplaut.com/2020/07/25/churchill-and-the-bengal-famine/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1A71RPdK6Yp6Ku3LcA7slJz2KLhrrChZ-bTsXIdSFA55H7X-FDToN4xzo_aem_AUrE_To1_wVNX_9DDXMKI-5AJIaHDKJHH83mF3IN_3LvWcicaRchpa6johw1pChNweh3bIAov3HlvOxSX2EREriC
https://historyreclaimed.co.uk/the-bengal-famine-what-the-experts-say/
Even Churchill hater Madursree Mukurjee wrote that Churchill's culpability in tihhering famine wasn't same scale as that of Stalin and Mao 👇
https://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-churchill-madusree-mukerjee-arthur-herman-rebuttal/20101202.htm
Madhursree Mukurjee is neither economist nor historian. Many researchers and scholars like Arthur L Herman, Richard M Langworth, Andrew Roberts, Andres Koureas, economic historian Dr Tirthankar Roy, historian Dr Zareer Masani debunked Madhursree Mukurjee and Shashi Tharoor's nonsense propaganda about Bengal famine 👇
https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/churcills-secret-war-bengal-famine-1943/
https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/december-2020/churchill-and-the-genocide-myth/
https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/did-churchill-cause-the-bengal-famine/
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/winston-churchill-isnt-to-blame-for-the-bengal-famine/
Even Churchill critic historian Janam Mukurjee told in Al Jazeera, "he played a role- particularly in blocking imports but to put the blame on the single person of Churchill is highly misleading". Oxford historian Yashmin Khan told in BBC news,"we can't blame him for creating famine anywhere". "What we can say is that he didn't alleviate it when he had the ability to do so". Nobody except Marxian and Shashi Tharoorians blame Churchill for creating so called engineering famine. Why Commies and woke left propagandists blame Churchill for creating famine? Because their godfather Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Jong killed hundreds of millions of people by man made famines. Indian fascists especially Subhash Chandra Bose's supporters blame Churchill. Because thay have need to justify fascist quisling Subhash Chandra Bose's axis collaboration. Deutsch Wikipedia show that axis collaborator Indian fascist nationalists created anti Churchill and anti British propaganda during Bengal famine. Madhursree and Shashi are spreading same nonsense again.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungersnot_in_Bengalen_1943#NS-Propaganda Anima Debnath (talk) 15:05, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
Are you crazy? Why are you share a Guardian article which has no relationship with Bengal famine? This is about mau mau rebellion. Guardian article is nonsense. Mau Mau terrorists killed thousands of innocent men, women and children. Woke left propaganda media The Guardian whitewashed mau mau terrorists.
https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/december-january-2024/kenyas-history-rewritten/
https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/august-september-2023/how-ofcom-signed-off-on-channel-4s-lies/
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/2005/06/23/the-end-of-the-mau-mau/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12690763/DAVID-ELSTEIN-Charles-RIGHT-not-apologise-Campaigners-demanding-King-say-sorry-Kenyan-tour-week-Britains-treatment-Mau-Mau-rebels-wrong.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/kenya/10103371/The-British-must-not-rewrite-the-history-of-the-Mau-Mau-revolt.html
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/daniel-goldhagen-and-kenya-recycling-fantasy/ Anima Debnath (talk) 15:45, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
I call POV Warrior here. Heads up on all future edits: Anti-UK POV warrior.Used.to.be.Lingzhi (talk) 14:29, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
'Well actually the 1933 Soviet Famine and the 1943 Bengal Famine aren't remotely comparable because here's a very one-sided list of things that the Soviets did, without any attempt to account for similar actions (or lack thereof) on the part of the British Empire in Bengal' = very cool person with a valid neutral POV
'Well the British clearly implemented colonial policies and the British Empire was based on exploitation hence their refusal to aid the famine for a long time including offers from other nations to give aid to Bengal' = very bad stupid incorrect "POV warrior"
'What? You think I'm enforcing bias on the examination of complex historical events on Wikipedia? You think I'm hiding this bias behind a veneer of objectivity which is really just rejecting all evidence I don't like/acting as if it doesn't exist and marking anyone who brings it up as a "POV warrior"? Nah, you must be one of those non-objective people if you think that.' 144.32.240.81 (talk) 01:38, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
What are some examples of sentences you would like changed? And what sources do you base these proposed  changed (Also I suggest you think about obtaining a user id as it makes it easier to discuss, and reduces editors concerns about POV as they can see your interest in other issues. From the editor perspective, they cop most of their abuse from IP editors). Wakelamp d[@-@]b (talk) 22:57, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
Stop your nonsense. All researchers agree that holodomor or great Ukrainian famine, Kazakhstan famine and great Chinese famine were completely man made. Even some researchers like Norman Naimark, Timothy Snyder, Anne Applebaum, Roman Serbyn, Stanislav Kulchytsky, James Mace, Andrea Graziosi called holodomor as genocide.  Micheal Ellman called not genocide but crimes against humanity. Russian historian Viktor Kondrashin rejected holodomor genocide theory. But he told that Russia didn't kill Ukraine. A leader killed his people.
http://kondrashin-golod-1932-1933.blogspot.com/2014/06/12-1932-1933.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20101201204942/http://izvestia.ru/hystory/article3121813/
Yes genocide theory is controversial. But all researchers agree that holodomor and Kazakhstan famine were deliberately created by Stalin and his comrades. Noone real scholar blame Churchill for creating so called engineering famine. Churchill critic historian Janam Mukurjee told in Al Jazeera, "he played a role- particularly in blocking imports but to put the blame on the single person of Churchill is highly misleading". Oxford historian Yashmin Khan told in BBC news," we can't blame him for creating famine anywhere". "What we can say is that he didn't alleviate it when he had the ability to do so". Churchill critic historians like Janam Mukherjee, Yashmin Khan, Richard Toye blamed Churchill for limited food help but not as main culprit of famine crises.
Truth history about holodomor and Bengal famine.
https://www.quora.com/Did-Stalin-in-Ukraine-1932-3-and-Churchill-in-India-1943-use-man-made-famine-as-a-weapon-against-the-people/answer/Debnath-18?ch=15&oid=1477743848571025&share=492eb521&srid=34Bkqt&target_type=answer Anima Debnath (talk) 06:20, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
The issue of Holodmor is completely 100% irrelevant to this discussion. Volunteer Marek  17:53, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

No it’s not, it’s perfectly reasonable to find similarities between the two events. 2601:601:8582:4F40:105E:3DEA:C179:C729 (talk) 16:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article is absolutely shameful. It's well documented that Churchill's policies had significantly worsened an already bad situation when he flat out refused to allow food diversions to Bengal despite the urgent need and full awareness that people will die of famine if he refused them. Is that genocide? It's definitely racism where Churchill couldn't care if people died in Bengal because they're brown and not important to him. What's seriously wrong is how the article neglects to even mention the serious potential crime against humanity when Churchill did that. Whether or not you call it a genocide, it shouldn't be ignored that Churchill's policies played a major role in exasperating the famine. Churchill's government did not prioritize relief efforts adequately and was slow to respond to the crisis. That should be noted clearly in the article and to stop being removed.[1] 49.180.179.36 (talk) 19:25, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Also should nore that a famine is when many people die from hunger. Mostly the poor. British inflation policy that ‘reduce the consumption of the poor' in order to make more resources available for British and American troops, through a ‘forced transfer of purchasing power’ from the ordinary people to the military. That is not from mother nature but made by man. And is arguably the biggest man made factor and yet it's not even mentioned anywhere in the article. Who even writes this stuff? it makes it sound like it's completely natural famine and the gov had nothing to do with it, but that's wrong. Policies contributed greatly to the famine and should not be ignored.[2] 49.180.179.36 (talk) 19:33, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
This nonsense propaganda was created by notorious Marxist propagandist Utsa Patnaik. How dare this lady? She blamed economicst Keynes for so called profitable inflation. Who is Utsa Patnaik? Who claimed only 11 million people died in great Chinese famine. When Chinese communist official history showed that 14,580,000 population decrease between 1959-1961. Chinese historian former vice director of the history researche unit of Chinese Communist Party Liao Gailong showed that 40 million people died in great Chinese famine. Chinese historian former instructor of central party school of communist party Yu Xiguang showed that 55 million people died in great Chinese famine. It's shameful to call her an economist. Both Utsa Patnaik and her husband Prabhat Patnaik are members of Communist Party of India (Marxist) or CPIM party, a radical Stalinist political party of India which always whitewash Stalin and Mao Zedong's crimes against humanity. Utsa Patnaik blamed Keynes for creating so called man made famine in Bengal. But this 'economist' claimed, main cause of great Chinese famine was natural. It's completely lie. Because researchers agree that major cause of great Chinese famine was great leap forward, natural cause was minor. Economist Peter Bowbrick proved that inflation wasn't major cause of Bengal famine.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/4790060_The_causes_of_famine_A_refutation_of_Professor_Sen's_theory
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jid.3635
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/358373178_Speculation_as_a_cause_of_famine_SPECULATION_AS_A_CAUSE_OF_FAMINE_-A_DANGEROUS_MYTH
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268265145_A_Refutation_of_Professor_Sens_Theory_of_Famines
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268265145_A_Refutation_of_Professor_Sens_Theory_of_Famines Anima Debnath (talk) 14:55, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
Polemical writing in which people are slighted, instantly makes us less credible, no matter the strength of our argument. Next time please write in a more professional manner. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:59, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
stop your nonsense. I didn't write 'polemical' writing. But Utsa Patnaik wrote. She is far left propagandist. Many researchers and scholars debunked Utsa Patnaik and Jason Hickel's nonsense 👇
https://historyreclaimed.co.uk/did-the-british-loot-india/
https://thecritic.co.uk/the-myth-of-an-extractive-empire/
https://x.com/DebajyotiBis/status/1579160479658045440?t=acKGzqTk574hyto-xodlFQ&s=19
https://quadrant.org.au/magazine/2021/09/british-india-and-the-45-trillion-lie/
https://x.com/Cesar5783/status/1860042218117169646?t=ibLMKFZszU6jX19CeJn_7g&s=19
https://x.com/Cesar5783/status/1860051574984425923?t=qXkSWYUbaqWaDHVAExvW8w&s=19
15&oid=220936754&share=50398047&srid=34Bkqt&target_type=answer
Answer to How did Britain steal $45 trillion from India? by Manoj Mahajan https://www.quora.com/How-did-Britain-steal-45-trillion-from-India/answer/Manoj-Mahajan-4?ch=15&oid=220936754&share=50398047&srid=34Bkqt&target_type=answer Anima Debnath (talk) 17:41, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
Don't tell a lie.I didn't write 'polemical' writing. Utsa Patnaik is ultra left propagandist. She had no argument. He falsely blames Churchill and Keynes. I have already shared many truth historical information which debunked Indian CPIM Comrade Utsa Patnaik's nonsense. But Wikipedia is now woke left propaganda site. So, they use Utsa Patnaik and Jason Hickel's nonsense. Anima Debnath (talk) 17:45, 24 March 2025 (UTC)
I agree in a general sense, accusations of genocide are made in modern times for crimes that are not nearly as severe in terms of death toll. That is not to say those aren't serious crimes and they may fit the definition of genocide while this and even the Holodomor (heavily debated) may not but there needs to be more emphasis on how devastasting this really was. At least call it a mass-famine, largely man-made if I'm reading the sources correctly. I don't think it's agenda-pushing to draw attention to the severity of this mass-famine especially since the majority of people have never heard of it. 2001:56A:FAB2:9C00:F450:25DD:F829:C176 (talk) 16:47, 18 April 2025 (UTC)
I think we have to first decide which definition of genocide we are using, and then agree on evidence for each point of the definition.  Wakelamp d[@-@]b (talk) 05:27, 30 April 2025 (UTC)