# Talk:Black Speech

How do we know it's ergative? —Tamfang (talk) 06:26, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Because it's reliably cited to a well-known Tolkien scholar. I've not read of any other path to establishing facts in Wikipedia's voluminous policy documents. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:07, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
Weirdly, the page cited bases the inference of ergativity only on the use of clitic object pronouns, which are hardly unknown in non-ergative languages.  Oh well, I won't press the issue. —Tamfang (talk) 03:40, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
Well we could relegate it to a footnote I suppose. It'd be best if another scholar wrote a rebuttal. Chiswick Chap (talk) 04:05, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

"Tolkien stated that when coining the Black Speech word nazg, he might have been influenced by the Irish word for "ring", nasc (Scottish nasg)" Nasc isn't the Irish word for "ring"; it's a verb that means "to bind". Fáinne is Irish for ring. 78.152.225.141 (talk) 22:07, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks. I've edited the statement. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:48, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
This gives Old Irish meanings "chain, link, tie". Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:51, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Am I crazy or does the audio file (The_one_ring.ogg), not pronounce the ring inscription correctly? Specifically, the speaker pronounces <zg> as [ɣ], but I can't find any reason it shouldn't just be [zg]. 2003:E5:B71C:7FF7:954A:2846:4814:5585 (talk) 21:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Meaning that somebody at Oxford had only recently become aware. Sumerians had cottoned on at least 5000 years ago, and the most full-blown ergativistic languages were already being spoken in Australia 10000 years ago. 145.53.11.225 (talk) 12:53, 11 July 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the thoughts. However, the theory of ergativity was created in the 20th century, and it may or may not be correct: it is quite possible that no language in the Middle East ever actually worked like that. The mention in the article is limited to what the Reliable Sources say about what Tolkien knew of the theory. Anything beyond those sources is out of Wikipedia's scope. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:15, 11 July 2025 (UTC)

I seem to remember that "sharky," used by orcs to refer to Saruman in The Return of the King, comes from the black speech "sharkû," meaning "old man". I would add this under Other Examples but I can't recall just where in the book I read it.  Tolkien Gateway lists "sharkû" and has references but doesn't mention where in the trilogy it occurs. 
Perhaps someone else more familiar with the word's source can add this? Mark Asread (talk) 17:03, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

It's in "The Scouring of the Shire". Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:42, 29 September 2025 (UTC)
Thanks for finding this and making the page change, @Chiswick Chap Mark Asread (talk) 22:13, 29 September 2025 (UTC)