# Talk:Arena (web browser)

Image:Arena (web browser) screenshot.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:06, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

market shaare? (see mapsofworld)
requested to take mapsofworld.com from the spam list at [1], since this source states that arena was widely used. no I/we have to wait!
mabdul 02:15, 12 June 2010 (UTC)


### timeline
 Done
(removed content)
is somebody able to upload the code? wikipedia doesn't want the code because of the js ^^

It looks great in my firefox, but it needs to be stripped of some formatting for the Wiki to accept it. I've started a post at Wikipedia:SVG_Help#Arena_svg. Perhaps you could save it as a png for now? Great timeline nonetheless!Smallman12q (talk) 02:21, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
thx. will check the new source uploaded by our helper and correct the errors. after that it will be integrated in the article. mabdul 12:25, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
done, see picture ;) mabdul 14:06, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

It says at http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/drafts/html-design.html  that  "Arena" was a testbed for HTML 3.0, from Dave Raggett et. al and links to http://info.cern.ch/Arena/ .It says at http://www.livinginternet.com/w/wi_browse.htm "In 1993, Dave Raggett at Hewlett-Packard in Bristol, England, developed a browser called Arena, with powerful features for positioning tables and graphics." Is this Arena's origin? (A .94 readme also has some info).Smallman12q (talk) 02:21, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

There's also a [ http://ftp.scientificlinux.org/linux/fermi/obsolete/502/i386.old/contrib/susedocs/pkg_English.ps post script] file i found...Smallman12q (talk) 02:21, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
There's also a multilingual i18n version.Smallman12q (talk) 02:21, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
If I understand all the resources correctly that I read: CERN invented the WWW and created later the W3C and moved their projects to the W3C and stopped involving into the WWW --> at the beginning everything was only available over CERN(because there there less servers!) So it was "understandable" that the first browsers were invented in cern. dave ragett worked for IBM and (moved/worked for both ?) later to the W3C. So the W3C/CERN was the real inventor. Think we can let the article as it is now mabdul 15:07, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Found a comment at www.ntg.nl/maps/16/maps.pdf saying Arena and UdiWWW were first to support 3.2 .Smallman12q (talk) 01:39, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. Integrated and as well the graphical (bad rendered raster) timeline. mabdul 09:28, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
For your question about the origins: http://www.w3.org/People/Raggett/book4/ch02.html explains Dave Raggett all: he worked fulltime at hp, halftime of that for the arena browser and at home in his spare time! really greate for the article. I found too much resource this morning, but I have to go now :( mabdul 08:29, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

ok, I found many links that I will integrate in the arena article in at least 1 week. I'm on vacation and I don't know how long!
all prerelease links are aviable on http://www.w3.org/Arena/0.90
mabdul 06:38, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

There's also the Arena tour, Arena activity. You can see virtually all the files in the Arena directory here and relevant w3.org Arena stuff "Arena+browser"+site:http://www.w3.org/ here. Great link above to http://www.w3.org/People/Raggett/book4/ch02.html , I will use it to expand World Wide Web Conference 1. Something has come up for this weekend, but on Monday, I should have some time to expand these articles. Cheers!Smallman12q (talk) 13:08, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
thanks for the google link. I already knew that ;) the activity link is already integrated a few hours ago. as you can see: I corrected some mistakes already in the WWW1 article. Hope that the Arena article got a GA one, if we integrted all references. so, I have to go again. mabdul 13:30, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
I inntegrated all links of the 0.9X builds (except the 0.98 builds) -->nearly finish: need to update the timeline! good night mabdul 02:17, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
todolist:

http://www.w3.org/Arena/style98/implementation
http://www.w3.org/Arena/style-beta-1/implementation.html
mabdul 14:19, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I've emailed Dave Raggett and have been fortunate to get a response=D. Below is a copy of the correspondence for those interested:
Email 1

On Tue, 2010-06-22 
> Hello,
> I've written the Arena (web browser) article at Wikipedia at
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_%28web_browser%29
>
> I was wondering if you'd be willing to give some screenshots of Arena
> development under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License
> or the W3C license.

Please find attached some screen shots from 1994 that you can use with
the CC license.

Note that I started work on the browser in late 1992 as a spare time
effort, and transferred it to Tim's group at CERN a couple of years
later. It was given the name Arena fairly late on.

I built the browser on top of XLib as the programming manuals for Motif
and other XWindows libraries were rather daunting. I demoed it at the
first WWW conference in CERN in Summer 1994 and at the 1994 ISOC
conference in Prague a couple of weeks later.

Regards,

-- 
Dave Raggett 

Email 2

On Wed, 2010-06-23
> Thanks!
>
> I've added the pics to
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arena_%28web_browser%29#Screenshots
>
> I have just one more question: Whyt did you name the browser Arena?

At one point I had a plan to create a themed browser with a romano greek
flavor, and Arena sounded appropriate.
-Dave Raggett

Hope this helps Mabdul!20:26, 24 June 2010 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smallman12q (talk • contribs)  

Can we add this into the article without any conserns/as a reference? (to the agora/argo article also) mabdul 21:01, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
I've started a thread at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Citing_an_email to determine the proper way to cite this type of information.Smallman12q (talk) 01:33, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Arena (web browser)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Hi, I'm going to chip in and review this article for Good Article status. This is my first time reviewing an article, but I've undergone the process with several articles that I've written, so I know what it takes to write a Good Article. My gut feeling is that this will go smoothly: the material appears to be thorough, and it's well-supported with reliable references. A couple of the sections have some grammar issues, but it's mostly well-written. The small grammar issues, I may fix myself; but there's at least one instance where the issues are such as to make the meaning unclear. I'll give more specifics later, and then I'll put the article on hold to give you time to clear those up. Normally, the article is put on hold for a week, but I can't do that because I'm in the middle of moving. We'll work around that, but there don't at first glance appear to be many glaring issues.
Reviewer: Dementia13 (talk) 02:10, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I've cleaned up some grammar in the various "Beta" sections. One thing you want to watch is to keep your tense consistent within a sentence: if you say that something "has" at the beginning of the sentence, you shouldn't say that it "had" later in the sentence. Don't mix those up, keep it consistent within the sentence. For example:
Beta-2 has two builds (beta-2a: 28 February 1996 and beta-2b: 21 March 1996) and introduced a new Application programming interface (API)).
I fixed this for you. It now reads like this:
Beta-2 had two builds (beta-2a: 28 February 1996 and beta-2b: 21 March 1996) and introduced a new Application programming interface (API)).
See the difference? It had and introduced, both past tense. Or make them both present tense, just don't randomly mix and match.

The following sentence needs to be made clear: This API can be used for communication with other applications like the application browser-history. That could be taken two ways, each slightly different. Is it:
This API can be used for communication with other applications, in the same way that the application browser-history can,
or is it:
This API can be used for communication with other applications, such as browser-history
please clarify that.

Where it says that Beta-3 introduced support for other operating systems, I'd like to see some of those operating systems specified.
There's something wrong with the first sentence of "Yggdrasil phase", it looks like there's an extra "W3C".
Although everybody would be able to compile Arena with the source code, volunteers created unofficial binaries. Consider that you're potentially writing this article for readers who don't know what that means, and reword that sentence.
In the following sentence, "competitive" with what? If the idea was to try to bring Arena more into the browser mainstream, that probably deserves a little more detail.
The Arena browser was shut down in favor of outside Linux-community development,[60] but it wasn't created any new build. Neither part of that sentence makes sense.
It doesn't support any extended code,[66] made a mess of tables,[66] BG COLOR tag,[66] DIV ALIGN tag,[66] animated GIFs[66] and has problems with transparent GIFs. "...made a mess of tables" is the same problem of the different tenses within the same sentence, and the wording is a little too informal for what's supposed to be an encyclopedic article. If you can briefly state how it breaks each of those things, then you should do so; but definitely reword the "made a mess of" part.
Most of the "Version numbering" section needs to be rewritten, it's strangely worded and difficult to understand.
"Screenshots": what does "HTML form in" mean?
under "History", should "html math" be "HTML math"?
I've made numerous minor grammatical fixes, but I'm leaving the rest up to you. I'm going to put this article on hold while you make the necessary changes. Since the issues involved are not large, and I'll be unavailable for most of next week, it'd be great if these could be cleaned up over the next three days. And, just so you don't think I'm picking on you, nice job with the article. Clearly, a lot of work went into it. The fixes I specified are small compared to the amount of effort you've put into it already. Dementia13 (talk) 03:08, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

The following sentence needs to be made clear: This API can be used for communication with other applications like the application browser-history. That could be taken two ways, each slightly different. Is it:  Smallman12q (talk) 16:40, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
This API can be used for communication with other applications, in the same way that the application browser-history can,
or is it:
This API can be used for communication with other applications, such as browser-history
please clarify that.

Where it says that Beta-3 introduced support for other operating systems, I'd like to see some of those operating systems specified. comment: see infobox: these is a detailed list of the supported oses mabdul 22:05, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Please specify it where you wrote it. The infobox lists what OSes are supported, presumably at the end of development; but that's not the same as saying what specific OS support was added with which specific release. Was support for all of those OSes added at the same time? Then say so without making me guess that the information's in an infobox. Dementia13 (talk) 20:51, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 Done; add the linux OS and the platform on that Arena runs now. mabdul 23:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

There's something wrong with the first sentence of "Yggdrasil phase", it looks like there's an extra "W3C".
 Done? I corrected the headlines, hope that clarifies enough. or do you have better ideas? mabdul 00:38, 28 August 2010 (UTC); now it is done. a slightly rewording. mabdul 10:55, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Although everybody would be able to compile Arena with the source code, volunteers created unofficial binaries. Consider that you're potentially writing this article for readers who don't know what that means, and reword that sentence.
This probably isn't needed as its open source.Smallman12q (talk) 16:40, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Compiled (wikilink to compilier now) and binaries/binary are wikilinked --> the reader should read these articles? In the source code article it is also in some ways described. Need more clarification? I mean that has really nothing to do with Arena. This is computing (programming) standards/open source! mabdul 00:45, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
It's also an awkward sentence, and I'm hoping that by clarifying it, you will clean it up at the same time. But don't get lazy, thinking that anybody who would be looking at this article would already know what those things are. What if a fifth-grader is using this as research for a report? And if that same fifth-grader doesn't know how to compile source code, then the word "everybody" is inappropriate. A simple change like Although Arena could be compiled from the source code by any user, volunteers created binary versions which could be installed more conveniently is clearer and more accurate. It also takes away the informal, un-encyclopedic feel that the word "everybody" gives. Dementia13 (talk) 20:36, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Although everybody would be able to compile Arena with the published source code to be able to run the application, volunteers created already unofficial finish binaries hope that is enough clarification. mabdul 23:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

In the following sentence, "competitive" with what? If the idea was to try to bring Arena more into the browser mainstream, that probably deserves a little more detail.  linked to browser wars Smallman12q (talk) 16:40, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
The link is good, but please find a way to briefly explain without making the reader follow a link. If you want this to be statused as a good article, then make it one, and make it self-contained instead of dependent on other articles for explanation. Dementia13 (talk) 20:51, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
I removed the link gain and explained it a bit. Or should I add the like anyway? mabdul 23:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

The Arena browser was shut down in favor of outside Linux-community development,[60] but it wasn't created any new build. Neither part of that sentence makes sense.  Smallman12q (talk) 16:40, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Very good. Dementia13 (talk) 20:51, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
It doesn't support any extended code,[66] made a mess of tables,[66] BG COLOR tag,[66] DIV ALIGN tag,[66] animated GIFs[66] and has problems with transparent GIFs. "...made a mess of tables" is the same problem of the different tenses within the same sentence, and the wording is a little too informal for what's supposed to be an encyclopedic article. If you can briefly state how it breaks each of those things, then you should do so; but definitely reword the "made a mess of" part.
This section needs to be reworded.Smallman12q (talk) 16:40, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
see in the new section for comments mabdul 23:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Most of the "Version numbering" section needs to be rewritten, it's strangely worded and difficult to understand.
I'm not sure if this section is needed...Smallman12q (talk) 16:40, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
I add this section to understand the timeline of releases. Will reword and make more work on the article in a few hours! (tomorrow morning!) mabdul 00:35, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
better? don't know if this wording is better understndable... mabdul 14:33, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
It's better, and I do agree that it's a good section to include. Now that it makes sense, I can tweak its grammar, but you have to provide a reference for it. Dementia13 (talk) 20:51, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
I add a reference for the beta-3e to 0.3.05 version changed. Is this enough? I can't remember to read aything online about the version change. This is "normal" praxis. mabdul 23:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

"Screenshots": what does "HTML form in" mean?  Smallman12q (talk) 16:40, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Good Dementia13 (talk) 20:51, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
under "History", should "html math" be "HTML math"?  Smallman12q (talk) 16:40, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Good Dementia13 (talk) 20:51, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

as I mention already above I will only mark it as finish mabdul 23:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

OK, this is getting there. Here's what's left:

When it says that support was added for other OSes, please state which OSes in the body of the article.
 Donemabdul 23:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Yes, the "volunteers created unofficial binaries" sentence does need reworded; see above.
 Donemabdul 23:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
The sentence about making Arena competitive, please briefly discuss what that means without assuming that the reader knows what that means, or making the reader follow a link.
 Donemabdul 23:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
The "criticism" section still needs work.
 Done hope my English is not too bad ;) Think the article is ready - or missed I something? If you have a question (i.e. to the animated gifs - I could add the reference out of the GIF article, but I can't check it [ blind copyandpaste ] otherwise please leave a talkback on my talkpage) mabdul 00:31, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
The "version numbering" section needs a reference. Also, please verify that my grammar tweaks left the meaning intact. Dementia13 (talk) 20:58, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
I add only a reference for the beta-3e to 0.3.05 change (with "quotation") --> is that enough? as mentioned above: can't remember to read something about this topic: this is normal praxis. mabdul 23:39, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Oh; I found a second reference by Y. - but that does notexplain the X.XX to betal-XY change! mabdul 00:32, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

When I said that you should list the OSes for which support was added, I didn't mean that you shouldn't mention that if you couldn't name the OSes, I just meant that it was a detail that belonged in the article. Anyway, it looks good with your revisions; and after I've done some grammar corrections, I think it's ready to pass. BTW, as you mentioned, your English is OK, but when you're writing in a language other than your native language, you have to work a little harder to make sure that your spelling is correct and that you're using correct idiomatic phrases. Good work. Dementia13 (talk) 03:21, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

There's a nice excerpt that we may be able to useat Fischetti, Mark; Berners-Lee, Tim (1999). Weaving the Web: the original design and ultimate destiny of the World Wide Web by its inventor. [San Francisco]: HarperSanFrancisco. p. 68-69. ISBN 0-06-251587-X.

One of the few commercial developers to join the contest was Dave Raggett at Hewlett-Packard in Bristol, England. He created a browser called Arena. HP had a convention that an employee could engage in related, useful, but not official work for 10 percent of his or her job time. Dave spent his 10 percent time,N plus a lot of evenings and weekends, on Arena. He was convinced that hypertext Web pages could be much more exciting, like magazine pages rather than textbook pages, and that HTML could be used to position not just text on a page but pictures, tables, and other features. He used Arena to demonstrate all these things, and to experiment with different ways of reading and interpreting both valid and incorrectly written HTML pages.

Smallman12q (talk) 17:33, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

More coming, thanks to Mosilac mystery on LineMode ports.

Not related, but apparently OMRON's version of 2nd Betas came first. And although no PDF document is available, maybe an actual public release by W3XXX? PS: dear captcha "drinkloose", much people here buy Coke, and we had some dictatorship, not a 2nd War (no debt, quite on the contrary).