# Talk:1912 Vanderbilt Commodores football team

This review is transcluded from Talk:1912 Vanderbilt Commodores football team/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Harrias (talk · contribs) 18:05, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Right, this has languished here for long enough. Harrias talk 18:05, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

First general thoughts
The lead looks too short for an article of this length (though I appreciate that much of the length is tables).
A lot of things are included with the assumption that the reader will understand them – jargon needs to be explained better.
The language is too casual in places ("The season started with a bang...", "The Commodores then rolled up a...").
Listing the starting lineup, in the prose, seems excessive detail.
Some of the tables appear odd in their construction; why are there cells missing in the Varsity letter winners tables, for example?
Additionally, the tables should be accessible and sortable. Harrias talk 18:37, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for this. Can you provide some examples of jargon? The missing cells are due to a lack of information in those fields. Cake (talk) 18:32, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
Images
The lead image, File:Wilson Collins.jpg is lacking sufficient source details to demonstrate that it was first published before 1923. The source link doesn't work.
The same for File:Wilson Collins.jpg.
Similar for File:HughMorgan.png; if Spalding's Football Guide was published before 1923, then we're fine.
File:Zach Curlin.png is fine, though for clarity, it would be best to put the year of publication of Vanderbilt–A University of the New South in the source information.
Similar for File:Ammiesikes.jpg; fine, but make it clear.
File:Lewhardage.png is fine.
File:Tombrown.png needs more details; when was Collier's Weekly published?
 Done

Lead
Spell out "ninth"  Done
Explain what a "8–1–1" record means, probably in a note.  Done
What is a "a third-team All-American"?
Walter Camp annually selected an "All-America" team composed of who he thought were the best players at each position on an (American) football team. It is a fantasy, "all star" team of players who are really from different teams all over America, given recognition at the end of the season. Some writers, including Camp, help themselves to multiple teams. A "first team selection" is then best, followed by second and third. Four or more is rare but happens. Camp was also often criticized for his bias towards players from New England and the northeast. In 1912, it was considered impossible for a Southern player to get on his first team. Hence part of the reason for the regional "All-Southern" team. Then, if you were from the South, getting on any of Camp's teams All-America teams had you saying you were "All-American".  One could argue "Hardage was third-team All-American" is the most notable thing about the season. I'm not sure I have a better way to put it than "third-team All-American".
Do you have sources for most of what you've said? Because if so, the article would definitely benefit from that explanation, particularly to show how notable the achievement was. Harrias talk 17:26, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Before the season
What are "varsity letter winners"?  Done Added links.
"in quarterback Ray Morrison, tackle Ewing Y. Freeland to Texas" – what does this mean? Did the state of Texas have some claim on them?
"and guard Will Metzger to business." – again, what does this mean? Is it just that he got a job?
Morrison, Freeland, and Metzger presumably graduated. The source, Vanderbilt's own publication, says "Of course Ray Morrison is not back, Freeland is in Texas, Metzger is in business..."
Maybe just trim away to say that they all left, without the detail, which in this case, doesn't add anything useful, I don't think. Harrias talk 17:26, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
"..retained the rest of its great backfield of the previous year.." This falls afoul of WP:NPOV a little; either specify how they were great, quote someone saying they were great, or tone down the language a little.  Done and agreed.
Season summary
Listing the starting lineup for each match in the prose like this seems like excessive detail to me, particularly as it ruins the flow of the text. Given there are tables at the bottom which list how many starts each player made, I'd strongly suggest removing the lists from the prose.
Still considering, for it has been done enough that I am used to it and it is some of the most important information in the newspaper articles. However, I agree it is neater in the tables, if I can avoid citing several articles down there.
I'm not going to insist on it, but I would recommend you consider it, for this and similar articles. Harrias talk 17:26, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
"..in a pouring rain" – is odd construction, in the UK at least; would "..in pouring rain.." flow better?  Done
"..Hardage and Robins and Morrison.." – change to "..Hardage, Robins and Morrison.."  Done
"..romped to a 54–0 victory.." – Not encyclopaedic language, tone it down.  Done
"..with subs.." – expand subs to substitutes.  Done
"..end of the first half.." – Earlier you refer to the second quarter; is it common to use both terminologies?
It is, but there is something to be said for consistency.
"During the game, Rose Poly tried a trick play with a player in civilian clothes receiving the ball." This is really intriguing, is there anything more that can be said about this? Was it legal? Did it stand?  Done Added a bit. Apparently it did stand, thought it was rather anticlimactic.
"The score would have been higher but for the water and mud." – According to who?
Good point. According to Vanderbilt's own publication. They said it would have been another Bethel or Maryville but for the mud.
"..with his longest gain being 12 yards." – What is a gain?
Some play resulting in positive yardage. Rush might be better.
Some form of clarification would be beneficial. Harrias talk 17:26, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
"..playing to a first-time, 13–0 win." – Does this mean they beat them for the first time? It isn't clear; explain it better.  Done
"..after runs of 35 and 28-yard.." – Should be "yards", plural.  Done
"..after Harvard muffed a punt." – Not encyclopaedic language.
Linked to the article on muffing a punt, though it does sound rather informal.
If it's linked jargon, then that's fine with me. Harrias talk 17:26, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
In the lead, it states that "the Commodores won their third straight conference title", but in the Sewanee section, "Vanderbilt clamored for a rematch to decide a champion after the tie with Auburn, but an upset by Georgia meant the Sewanee victory secured the title." Can you make it clear what title that is referring to.  Done
Varsity letter winners
Fill out the table, it looks awful with the missing cells. If something is unknown, just state that.  Done Harrias talk 10:17, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Thanks again. I have tried to add my comments and address the needed fixes. Cake (talk) 13:33, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
I've put a few more replies up; the tables still need work per MOS:DTT as well. Harrias talk 17:26, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Hopefully the tables are improved. I still am not sure about the lineups for each game. There seems no other way to show which games the players started. As for part about Hardage's All-American achievement, I've added a note. As for additional sources to what I say, one can look at the All-Southern article for example. The 1910 All-America team article had some info about Camp's "Eastern bias", though written from a (mid)western perspective. Cake (talk) 05:27, 26 September 2017 (UTC)


### Comments
@Harrias: What still needs to be done here? If MisterCake doesn't mind I may be able to fix whatever else needs to be fixed for this to pass. Lizard (talk) 16:09, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I think I missed MisterCake's last comment; it looks like he has addressed everything now. I'm on a family holiday at the moment, so won't be able to have a proper look through until the weekend to have a final check before hopefully passing the article. Harrias talk 16:59, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
@Harrias: Pardon me passing through, but judging by your contributions, it appears you're back. This is one of the oldest noms in the queue; any chance this could be wrapped up soon? --Bcschneider53 (talk) 03:48, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Okay @MisterCake: @Lizard the Wizard: the major things that still need some work are making the tables accessible as per MOS:DTT and expanding the lead. I still have reservations about the line-ups for each game appearing, but that's more Wikipedia:I just don't like it than anything based on policy. Harrias talk 19:12, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

I've reworked the tables and the lead, I think it should be good now. Lizard (talk) 16:47, 7 November 2017 (UTC)