# Talk:Bajo Pivljanin

According to what evidence he was an ethnic Serb?--Crovata (talk) 01:00, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Common sense? Could you refute any Serbness of Bajo? Piva was a medieval Serbian county and the Serbian Church has a core eparchy in the region. Pivljanin himself is described as Serb in epic poetry and Serbian historiography. Béla K. Király; Gunther Erich Rothenberg (1979). Special Topics and Generalizations on the 18th and 19th Centuries. Brooklyn College Press. ISBN 978-0-930888-04-6. The Serb subjects of the Ottoman empire looked upon Venice as an ally, but they resented Dubrovnik's collaboration with the Turks ... Some, like Bajo Pivljanin, reappeared as hayduks in the Morean war --Zoupan 22:23, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
"Common sense" is not a source or an argument, that's WP:OR. How can I refute Serbness of Bajo if we do not even know if he was a Serb. If we asked him then would he declare as a Serb? Why in the primary sources he is not mentioned as a Serb? What made someone in that period an ethnic Serb? Because he was Orthodox - that's not even 1/2 argument for being a Serb. If anything else, then appropriately edit the article be citing something in the line "although not considered in the primary sources, some historians, epic poetry, consider he was a Serb".--Crovata (talk) 13:18, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
No, WP:OR would be stating that he wasn't Serb.--Zoupan 20:33, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
That's not how neutrality and Wikipedia work.--Crovata (talk) 14:07, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
You seem to have problems with how WP actually works. If you can't refute it, don't force your OR/POV.--Zoupan 23:47, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
No, you're the who has problems with neutrality on the specific period of time and people.--Crovata (talk) 05:38, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
"According to T. P. Lješević, Bajo was the son of Jovan Ivanović and a mother of the Tadić brotherhood (from which the former President of Serbia, Boris Tadić, descends[3])" - Who is T. P. Lješević? Why is the info contradicting? Why is cited source from "blic.rs"? Is it reliable? Why the info about the President relevant anyhow to the article?--Crovata (talk) 13:22, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Tomo P. Lješević seems to have been a historian from Piva, who wrote Iz Pive u Gacko and Život i djelo Baje Pivljanina (1897). Tradition and Lješević are two separate stories? Why wouldn't it be contradicting? I will expand with other claims (there are several).--Zoupan 20:33, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
There is no "seems" - he was or was not a historian? What you intended, he was an amateur historian?--Crovata (talk) 14:07, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
He was a priest, so yes, an amateur historian. He is cited by reliable sources, though.--Zoupan 20:41, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
Until now I did not see any primary source in which he is mentioned as a Serb. The epic poetry is not a reliable evidence, while historiographies of specific Balkan nations are influenced by specific national-political ideology, and their neutrality is often questionable on previous events and people. The article lead should not mention that he was an ethnical Serb, from modern-day perspective, and thus should be noted somewhere else in the article, perhaps in notes, that in Serbian epic poetry and historiography is considered a Serb.--Crovata (talk) 05:38, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

What was Bajo's religion?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:32, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Orthodox.--Zoupan 23:35, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
Taking in consideration that religion and patriarch of Church he adhered had very important role in his life, maybe it would be good to mention it in the lede.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:25, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
I disagree, religious adherence is excessive for mention in lede. I have added his connection to Metropolitan Vasilije, however.--Zoupan 00:03, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Per WP:NICKNAME, the title of the article is appropriate, but the first sentence should probably begin with "Dragojlo Nikolić (c. 1630 – May 1685) known as Bajo Pivljanin (Serbian Cyrillic: Бајо Пивљанин)"? See Lady Gaga, MC Hammer, 50 Cent, Samantha Fox, Sabrina Salerno, .... Any thoughts? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:35, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

I believe the two annotations in the infobox and first section are adequate. His full name is scarcely found in references.--Zoupan 08:34, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
ok--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:40, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bajo Pivljanin/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Peacemaker67 (talk · contribs) 04:07, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

The review was open for more than a month, I ping the reviewer (Peacemaker67) and the nominator (Zoupan) to have a look at it. The article has no edits since 10 September 2016 though the nominator is active. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk • mail) 03:40, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

I would appreciate if passed points be struck.--Zoupan 20:29, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
I have passed a couple of criteria that have been marginally met. The remaining key ones are the uncited sentences (a major problem) and the untranslated source titles (a minor problem). Cheers, Peacemaker67  (click to talk to me) 01:09, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

I added a section to describe the ethnic cleansing perpetrated by hajduks from Montenegro, including Bajo Pivljanin:
Bajo Pivljanin and his fellow Montenegrin hajduks acted with a great deal of cruelty towards the agricultural inhabitants of Hercegovina (specifically, but not exclusively Muslims). Their actions caused the total destruction of Muslim heritage in the Sanjak of Hercegovina. The evidence for this comes from records from the year 1701 which state that that some twenty villages in the districts of Zupci, Dvrsna, Riđan, Rudine, Korjenić, Grahovo and Gacko have been depopulated over the last forty years due to the actions of Montenegrin bandits, because they lie on the path of their regular raiding campaigns.
The source for this is an academic article published in 2016 by Fazileta Hafizović from the University of Sarajevo.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.111.106.183 (talk) 13:33, 31 May 2018 (UTC) 

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In the beginning of the article it is stated that Bajo Pivljanin was a "Serbian hajduk". This might come as slightly strange to someone who is not informed, as it could cause confusion in regards to location. Serbian is often used as an association with Serbia (the country) itself.
Seeing from the linked map - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bajo_Pivljanin/map - Bajo Pivljanin never set foot on the territory of modern-day Serbia, as such the use of the adjective could be misleading.
By no means am I denying the Serbdom of Bajo Pivljanin or his ethnicity, as quite logically all Serb hajduks were Serbs ethnically. He was obviously not Montenegrin by ethnicity, as that didn't exist back in the day, but he was a Montenegrin by birth (just how there are Herzegovinian, Bosnian, Macedonians hajduks as well). The question here isn't ethnicity, but geography and the area in which they operated.
Similar practices were utilized on other pages - e.g. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grdan , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golub_Babi%C4%87 , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikac_Tomanovi%C4%87)
As such, I propose that "Serbian hajduk" at the top gets changed into "Montenegrin hajduk", for he was a member of the Piva tribe, one of the many traditional Montenegrin tribes (nearly all of whom even today are Serbs ethnically, but Montenegrins geographically), while he was not associated with Serbia proper. Dragonrykr (talk) 21:06, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing you opinion on talk page, for any other changes that you want to input in the article you need to provide a source that clearly states the change you want to make. You did not provide any of the sources that are mentioning Bajo Pivljanin, wikipedia does not work on presenting other examples on other articles, please read WP:RS. You need to present a source that states that "he was a Montenegrin Hajduk" also you can read what WP:SYNTHESIS meanTheonewithreason (talk) 18 November 2021 (UTC)
I have read it, thank you. The source is in the article about Bajo Pivljanin itself. The article states (below the image) that he was born in Piva. Piva is located in the northwestern portion of Montenegro. As such, he is a Montenegrin hajduk, in a geographical sense. Meanwhile, can you provide a source that states that he is a Serbian hajduk (from Serbia proper), since that piece of information isn't sourced either? Dragonrykr (talk) 21:20, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
No you are making a conclusion based on WP:synthesis meaning he was from Piva, Piva is in Montenegro therefore he is Montenegrin, wikipedia does not work that way, you need to provide a source that clearly states that he was a Montenegrin Hajduk, meaning a book with a quote, we don′t do our own conclusions. Theonewithreason (talk) 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Very well, but can you provide a valid source that states that he is a "Serbian hajduk", since as I mentioned, that fact is unsourced as well. Dragonrykr (talk) 21:32, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
There are several sources mentioned here in the article, Usually when article reaches a GA status it means that such things were checked, meanwhile you are free to look at references used for this article i.e. Corovic, Jačov, Marko (1990). Srbi u mletačko-turskim ratovima u XVII veku [Serbs in Venetian-Ottoman Wars in the 17th century, Samardžić, Radovan; Veselinović, Rajko L.; Popović, Toma (1993). Radovan Samardžić (ed.). Istorija srpskog naroda: Srbi pod tuđinskom vlašću 1537–1699 [History of the Serb people: Serbs under foreign rule 1537–1699]. Belgrade: Srpska književna zadruga etc. Theonewithreason (talk) 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Everything that you just sent mentioned "Serb" and "Serbs", not "Serbian". By which source is Bajo Pivljanin a "Serbian hajduk" when he never set foot in Serbia? Is there a source that proves that he had some relation with Serbia proper? Dragonrykr (talk) 21:43, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
You are free to check the sources not just read the titles of the sources. Theonewithreason (talk) 18 November 2021 (UTC)