# Talk:Andranik

Hey Eupator, I have several excellently pristine, authentic photographs of Andranik dating back to the early 1900s of Andranik and I'll try to find the best one to upload here.
Regards--MarshallBagramyan 04:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I have a picture of his equestrian statue in Yerevan. I want the article to be expanded a little before I add it though. I also took a few pictures of Baghramyan's statue. I have very mixed feeling about him though. --Eupator 17:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Mixed feelings on how successful of a commander he was or mixed feelings about him per se? I always saw him as the amiable, little Armenian grandpa in his pictures.--MarshallBagramyan 22:25, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Mixed feelings whether he should be considered an Armenian hero. Baghramyan served the USSR not Armenia and I'm not sure but I think he was also fighting against Armenian forces for the Bolsheviks during the takeover of Armenia. Anyway, that's OT-reply in my talk.--Eupator 22:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I forgot to tell you this but my grandfather did see Andranik in Kars when the Russian army was mounting offensives from there. He recalled that he rode on a white horse and took off a cape which had several bullet holes in it, demonstrating the numerous amount of times he was shot at but never wounded. He also personally met Serob Pasha's wife, Sose, when she stayed at their house.--MarshallBagramyan 19:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
And the prince on his white horse swooped down the plains to bring Cinderella her shoe and his bullet-ridden cape :) Better say "considered a freedom fighter by the Armenians", per NPOV btw. And my grandfather met a lot of people too, but met's not get into that :)Baristarim 20:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot 14:41, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Some parts of new addings are dubious or historically not correct so its preferable to discuss these addings at first:

what means the edit summary: "to user Fedayee"?
"but disagreement with party policies led Andranik to leave the Hunchak ranks": Andranik never had disagreements with S-D. Hunchakian party, he just leave it after 1895-96 division,
"A mission was led by Andranik...etc": an uncorrect translation from Chalabian. Serob's sons were killed in 1899.
"General Andranik": during the Balkan War I he was an officier.
"Republic of Mountainous Armenia": very dubious chapter name. In all the books about Andranik I ever read there werent such a division of his activities. F.e. in that time Zangezur was a part of Democr. Rep. of Armenia, it became a RMA during the Njdeh's leadership.
"to find Andriank around the Shishi" - ??
"The Armenian militia under Adriancik's" - ??
"taking with him a group of loyal solders"- he went with few secretaries.
Summaty: this variant is dubious and must be explained and at least partially reverted to the prev. more correct encyclopedic style-version. Andranikpasha (talk) 16:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Pls discuss at first here! Andranik also wasnt "an officer of the Garegin Njdeh", but the head of Armenian volunteer troops (see the same Trotsky). and this one quote is more than dubious: "Third Army found Andriank(Andranik) at the Shishi(Shushi)": during his life Andranik never entered to Shushi. he was near Shushi in 1919 when he received a command to return. Andranikpasha (talk) 17:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Removed OR that equals to vandalism and breaks WP:WTA - Fedayee (talk) 21:00, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I removed an uncorrect text on Andranik's ARF membership. Several times he said that he represent all the Armenian nation and all the oppressed people, and only for some periods was different partie's member. Andranikpasha (talk) 17:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter where the hero was born. The only thing that counts is the most common spelling in English literature: “andranik+ozanian” has 92 hits at Google Books and 9290 hits at google.com, while “antranik+ozanian” 31 and 833, respectively. Besides, Western Armenian form would be Antranig, not Antranik, and it too has much fewer hits than the Eastern Armenian form. --Vahagn Petrosyan (talk) 18:52, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Antranig!!! Pesheker (talk) 12:57, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Hey, so the first issue brought up by you was his nickname Shapinad. I agree that the only place Shapinand is used is Dashtents's novel, but first of all that novel is a non-fiction, second, Khachik Dashtents wrote it after interactions with many of Andranik's comrades such as Makhluto, who was next to him almost all his life. I don't see any reason, why this shouldn't be added as his nickname. 
Second, the issue of using the Dashnak symbol for Armenian militia. He left the Hunchakian party in 1894 and joined Dashnaks and he started his revolutionary/fedayee activities in 1895 (a year later after joining ARF) and he was a Dashnak, not Hunchak or Armenakan, when being a militia member. I think this makes sense. --Yerevanci (talk) 16:18, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Both points of your answer are WP:OR. There are a lot of historical researches about Andranik, and noone of the historians mention his nickname as Shapinand (except writer Dashtents and... you). The author of this nickname was Dashtents in his novel (Shapinand is just a hero of this book, Dashtents does not confuse him with Andranik, as some of his readers do), which is off course not a documantal research. For Armenian militia, the symbol of ARF is a clear POV-pushing. Andranik became a revolutionaire in 1889. And many groups of Armenian militia were not related to ARF (read f.e. about Hampartsoum Boyadjian and Girayr). So the Armenian militia is not equal to ARF. Please avoid of new disruptive addings to this page before you find any reliable sources. For the first, please read WP:RS. Gazifikator (talk) 17:12, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Shapinand is just a hero of this book, Dashtents does not confuse him with Andranik, as some of his readers do. Well, if you say so. I believe you, but as I understood from the book, Shapinand was the name his comrades called him. I will revert my edit to yours.
First of all, to avoid any arguments over my political views, I have to tell you that I'm not a Dashnak member and/or I don't have any sympathy to that party, I just consider it as one of the main figures of the Armenian national movement, as you can see in other articles (e.g. List of Armenian fedayees, ) I also added the logos of Hunchakian and Armenakan parties. But yes I think you're right, the ARF symbols shouldn't represent the Armenian fedayee movement. I agree with that. --Yerevanci (talk) 18:19, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Thank you! For Shapinand you can check some historical books by Tsatur Aghayan or Antranig Chalabian, you'll see that is wasn't a real nickname but created by Dashtents (not Smbat Boroyan) possiblly because of Soviet censorship. Gazifikator (talk) 20:14, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Yes I will and thank you for helping me to reveal the truth. I really want to make this article be good and neutral.--Yerevanci (talk) 20:46, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Is the poster influenced more by Uncle Sam, or by the original featuring Lord Kitchener?Varlaam (talk) 09:27, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not into the history of this posters and I don't know which came first, but your point is good, because I looked up in Lord Kitchner article and there's a section saying "Imitations", so it got to be the original finger-pointing poster. Also, the article says that Lord Kitchiner was created in 1914, when the WWI started and Uncle Sam poster was created only in 1917, when US got involved in the war.--Yerevanci (talk) 19:16, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

A quote from Bloxham:
"From mid-1918, Andranik was prominent in the destruction of Muslim settlements during the purging of the Armenian-Azeri border region of Zangezur. Hovannisian describes his actions as the beginning of the process of 'transforming Zangezur into a solidly Armenian land'." Parishan (talk) 18:39, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

First of all, thanks for that quote. I Googled and found this:
On the Armenian side, many of the key perpetrators were the former leaders of the volunteer battalions and Turkish-Armenian 'self-defense' operations. From mid-1918, Andranik was prominent in the destruction of Muslim settlements during the purging of the Armenian-Azeri border region of Zangezur. Hovannisian describes his actions as the beginning of the process of 'transforming Zangezur into a solidly Armenian land'. Alexandr Khatisian, one-time Prime minister of Armenia, used similar language, averring that 'it was not the will of the diplomats which was to bring about homogeneous populations in this or that region, but through the course of elemental behaviour'. Andranik was stopped from expanding this policy into Karabakh by the local British commander, who had his own distinct political agenda.
Andranik brought with him 30,000 Armenian refugees, mostly from eastern Anatolia, particularly Mush and Bitlis, where, under the protection of fedayee forces lead by Ruben Ter Minassian, they had managed to resist the Turkish assault and escape to the Caucasus. Some refugees stayed in Zangezur, but Ter Minassian, a former member of the Armenian national council, ordered the transfer of many of them to the Erivan and Daralgiaz regions, where they replaced evicted Muslims in a move to ethnically homogenize key areas of the Armenian state. One of the fedayees accurately described this as ethnic cleansing, and the parallels to the settlement of muhajirs at Armenian expense in the late Ottoman empire are obvious.

What I suggest now is to compromise a neutral text that can go in the article, because this line (He was particularly prominent in the destruction of Muslim settlements and in the planned ethnic homogenisation of regions with once mixed population through populating them with Armenian refugees from Turkey.) seems biased and incomplete to me.
Thus, what do we have?
From mid-1918, Andranik was prominent in the destruction of Muslim settlements during the purging of the Armenian-Azeri border region of Zangezur
Hovannisian describes his actions as the beginning of the process of 'transforming Zangezur into a solidly Armenian land'.
Andranik was stopped from expanding this policy into Karabakh
Andranik brought with him 30,000 Armenian refugees, mostly from eastern Anatolia, particularly Mush and Bitlis,
Some refugees stayed in Zangezur
transfer of many of them to the Erivan and Daralgiaz regions, where they replaced evicted Muslims in a move to ethnically homogenize key areas of the Armenian state.
These are the most important parts of the text. Agree?
This is my interpretation of the text:
After Armenia's declaration of Independence in May 1918, Andranik fought in Nakhchivan, Karabakh and Zangezur against the Azerbaijani and Turkish forces, during which he organized a deportation of the Muslim population of Zangezur and brought some 30,000 Armenians from Mush and Bitlis, many of them later transferred to Erivan and Daralagiaz to homogenize key areas of the Armenian state.
This is my understanding of the text. I tried to be as neutral as I could. If you don't have any problem with my text, I would like to replace the text added by you with it as neutral and complete.--Yerevanci (talk) 20:32, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
You forgot to outline one more important point: Bloxham agrees this was ethnic cleansing when he says "accurately describes", which is quite a serious interpretation of Andranik's actions. I believe that should not be omitted.
Otherwise I generally agree with your wording, except one important point. The meaning of the term 'deportation' lies very far from the meanings of the words 'destruction' and 'eviction' which Bloxham uses. In other words, it is too soft and rather inaccurate a word to summarise what was being done to the Muslims in Zangezur according to the author. It can be applied but loosely to the events taking place in the region at the time. We could drop the word 'eviction', because the term 'ethnic cleansing' already presupposes that, but the word 'destruction' should be kept.
So here is what I suggest: "After Armenia's declaration of Independence in May 1918, Andranik fought in Nakhchivan, Karabakh and Zangezur against the Azerbaijani and Turkish forces. His policy in Zangezur involved the ethnic cleansing of the local Muslim population and the destruction of their settlements, which were then repopulated with some 30,000 Armenians from Mush and Bitlis (many of them were later transferred to Erivan and Daralagiaz) in order to homogenize key areas of the Armenian state." Parishan (talk) 04:21, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

--Yerevanci (talk) 13:07, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

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The user who adds this seems to have not only copyright problems, but he also believes nationalistic day.az is a reliable source for Armenian history. OptimusView (talk) 07:58, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
First of all, Day.az is not nationalist. It is simply Azerbaijani. And it is only used here to illustrated the Azerbaijani point of view. Secondly, you cannot delete an entire paragraph based on your criticism of only one source that it contains. With it, you are reverting established and recognized sources, such as Bloxham and Hovannisian. Parishan (talk) 08:23, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

It is obviously nationalistic. It supports military aggression against Armenia and Karabakh and publishes extremely anti-Armenian materials (f.e. "Azerbaijan celebrates the return of Ramil Safarov" is written on the first page of Daz.az). Day.az is an Azeri newspaper, it doesn't represent Azerbaijani official views or historical academic researches. I made same copyedit and readded all the reliable materials. OptimusView (talk) 08:32, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
I do not see how saying "celebrates" is nationalist. The agency simply reports on the attitude of the Azerbaijani government with regard to the event. The "military aggression against Armenia and Karabakh" is your own POV, and disagreeing with it does not mean being nationalist.
The "reliable" materials you added are Antranig Chalabian, a historian with a degree from the Yerevan State University, who refers to Azerbaijanis as "Tatar bandits". Now, that is nationalist. Furthermore, presenting his opinion as primary is unacceptable; most sources agree that in 1918, Azeris were either expelled or massacred in Zangezur and all across Armenia: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], so Chalabian's view is WP:UNDUE. You cannot simply state that Chalabian believes so, but David Bloxham holds a different opinion, because the two sources are not equal in either notability or lack of bias. I also question your removal of the term "ethnic cleansing" that Bloxham used to refer to what happened in Zangezur. Parishan (talk) 08:44, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

About Chalabian: I answered you on your talk. He is the most reliable specialist on Andranik. Conflicts.rem33 and ceghakron are not reliable sources and all sources you mentioned do not mention Andranik's name (FYI in 1920 not Andranik but Njdeh was in Zangezur). See details at WP:SYNTH. What about to ask for a third opinion? OptimusView (talk) 08:51, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
How can Chalabian be "the most reliable source", if he is endorsed by an Armenian state-funded university? Even the wording he uses is biased. Also, you never explained why you keep removing the term "ethnic cleansing" from the article.
Conflicts.rem33 is in fact very reliable: the article there is written by Dr. Andrew Andersen, former professor of Simon Frazer University and the University of Victoria and currently a research fellow at the University of Calgary. Cegharkon is notable in that in quotes an existing document from Soviet archives, to which the reference is provided. Anyway, I listed the sources to demonstrate that the Azeri exodus and killings in Zangezur were a commonplace occurence in 1918–1920. If that is not convincing, I can quote Richard Hovannisian: "When he encountered a Turkish division near Julfa, Andranik backtracked and ascended into the highlands of Zangezur, where for the duration of the world war he overran one Muslim village after another" [6].
If you have problems with Day.az as an Azerbaijani source, I suggest we use academic Azerbaijani sources, such as Anar Isgandarli and Tofig Kocharli, to illustrate the Azerbaijani view on the issue.
Isgandarli: "A report by the commission stated that 115 Muslim villages in the Zangezur uyezd were reduced to the ground by the Armenians; the names of the ruined villages are provided therein. [goes into the description of the atrocities] These episodes were realized in Zangezur under the direct command of Andranik during summer and fall of 1918." [7] (p. 123)
Kocharli: "As said by the Prime Minister of Azerbaijan F.Kh.Khoyski, on July 1918, Andranik "by doing terrible evils in Zangezur destoyed many villages and, finally, by crossing to the Shusha uezd, block the road to Asgaran..." The Azerbaijani Armed Forces were then focused exclusively on the Baku problem." [8] (p. 26)
I would like you to comment on this, and if we still disagree, we can ask a third party to join. Parishan (talk) 09:17, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

About Chalabian: no sources even discuss his reliability. After the publication of his book he received a diploma of Honorary doctor from a respected scientific institution in Armenia, as many other historians, I see no problem with that. Chalabian is also a respected and cited source in US. You're speaking about mass killings and quote Hovanissian writing he overran one Muslim village after another. Overran has different meanings, anyways that's not the same. For Isgandarli and Kocharli I searched Google books but didn't find any reliable links if they were serious scholars. But I find the name of book by Kocharli you're quoting - "Armenian deception". Great, if you call these "good traditions" of wild anti-Armenianism the Azerbaijani view! You're free to add any quotes from that book to the Anti-Armenianism, not here. OptimusView (talk) 09:44, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
The fact that Chalabian received a diploma from Armenia only goes to show that how biased his opinion is, because Armenian sources are not third-party in this case. Wikipedia describes Chalabian as a "medical illustrator", and I do not see any evidence of proper training in history. He is not a qualified historian, more like an amateur. "Honorary doctorate" is not even an academic degree. Heck, Ilham Aliyev is an honorary doctor of over 20 universities in Azerbaijan and abroad.[9] Does that make him an academic authority? Is it really so difficult to understand that someone with Chalabian's qualifications and approach is no equal to someone like Donald Bloxham, a professor from the University of Edinburgh and a notable expert on genocide issues? I should even insist on Chalabian's complete removal from the article, now that we have established he is not even a scholar.
As for the Azerbaijani sources, no one is expected to agree with them. They are simply to show that this is what the Azerbaijanis believe. Isgandarli holds a Ph.D. degree [10] and is chair of the department of historical methodology at Baku State University.[11]. The late Tofig Kocharli was also an acclaimed historian in Azerbaijan and member of the Azerbaijan National Academy of Sciences.
I was not pushing for the inclusion of information about massacres. Both Hovannisian and Bloxham mention the destruction of Muslim villages, and Bloxham further describes it as an act of ethnic cleansing (and he is perfectly qualified to do so, unlike Chalabian). That is all. And that is exactly what the article said before you started meddling in the text. Parishan (talk) 10:08, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

You promised to ask for a third opinion if I disagree. So it's the right time. Not any material by a PhD is a reliable source. And we can include the term of "ethnic cleansing" but with respect to WP:WEIGHT and after we have a direct citation. OptimusView (talk) 11:29, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Anyone with a Ph.D. in history is definitely tons more reliable than a medical illustrator who writes quasi-historical essays for fun. Before we invite a third party, I would like you to answer this question: what scientific background does Chalabian have? It would be nice to see some degree in history-related fields, examples of relevant scienfitic publications and, if possible, peer reviews. Once we establish that Chalabian and Bloxham are of the same weight, we can invite a third party. Parishan (talk) 05:50, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Chalabian is a specialist on Andranik's biography, holds a Honorary doctor's diploma. Bloxham just mentions the name of Andranik few times. Chalabian is a widely cited specialist (for example, Occupation and Insurgency: A Selective Examination of The Hague and Geneva Conventions on the Eastern Front, by Colin D. Heaton, Steve Greer, 2008, p. 180, or Hovanissian you're quoting in The Armenian Genocide. Transaction Publishers, 2007, p. 16), an invited regular contributor to the Military History magazine [12][13]. Chalabian was never criticized for his books. This is enough. And Bloxham is not supported by any other reliable specialist on Andranik, only pro-Azerbaijani radical sources support him. In his book, Bloxham also questiones the fact of Armenian genocide, and he was criticized for that. So even as a historian he is controversional. But anyways he is enough famous so he is cited in the article. And again, if you have a direct citation on "ethnic cleansing" I do not oppose to add it into article. So what's your problem with Bloxham? OptimusView (talk) 06:40, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
By the way, Bloxham uses Chalabian's book as a reliable source for him [14] and in several reliable publications they both (Chalabian and Bloxham) were used as sources [15]. OptimusView (talk) 08:00, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

"The most famous of the Armenian guerrilla fighters, although not necessarily the most important"
Can we remove this line? The only fedayi who really has a good argument for being more important than Andranik is Nzhdeh, and combined with how Libaridian didn't go into detail on why Andranik isn't important or whatever he meant, this sentence doesn't carry much weight. --Steverci (talk) 14:58, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

"Ozanian was Commander-in-Chief of the allied forces in the Near East in the early part of the World War. He relinquished the command to General Allenby of the English forces and returned to the command of the Armenian Army."[20]
Should any mention of this title be made? --Steverci (talk) 23:04, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

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Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070827225037/http://news.president.am/arm/?sub=statements to http://news.president.am/arm/?sub=statements&year=2000&from=20
Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130921061021/http://www.ktak.am/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?206.30 to http://www.ktak.am/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?206.30
Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20170825232550/https://www.archives.government.bg/uploaded_files/sprav_09_all.pdf to https://www.archives.government.bg/uploaded_files/sprav_09_all.pdf
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