# Talk:Boreray Blackface

Several sources reffed in the article state that the Boreray arose from crosses of Scottish Blackface with "Scottish Tan Face" also called the "Old Scottish Shortwool".  While these sources are all reasonably authoritative, they are all tertiary ones, and are so similarly worded that they must come from the same primary source – which however none of them gives.  I can't find out much about the Tanface, but some sources I can find imply that it was indeed related to the Soay, or alternatively that it may not be an ancestor of the Boreray, and perhaps was not even a short-tailed sheep.  For example:

Could this be the "primary" source? "The sheep that replaced the Soay on Hirta ... were presumably of Old Scottish Shortwool type ... some of these remain ... on Boreray " (my italics).  Looks uncomfortably like guessing – if not, why say "presumably"?  [Later edit: I'd not realised that this is a quote in that ref, and comes originally from Ryder, M L, Sheep and Man 1983.  Richard New Forest (talk) 09:05, 17 May 2009 (UTC)]
This source (p 66) says "the old Scottish shortwool sheep ... still survive on North Ronaldsay in Orkney and in the Shetland Islands".  These breeds are close to the Soay, suggesting that the Boreray is too.
This source (p 156) says "the Cheviot appears to have evolved entirely from the native Dunface or Old Scottish Shortwool".  The Cheviot is not a short-tail, implying the Dunface was not.  If it was not (and the Blackface isn't), the Boreray must have got its short tail from somewhere: therefore it would not be derived mainly from a cross of Blackface and Dunface.
This source states of the Shortwool that "no trace of these sheep is now found", implying it is not an ancestor of any modern breed (the paper gives a ref, which I can't check).
A History of British Livestock Husbandry, 1700-1900 by Robert Trow Smith (on Google Books) says (p 147) that there were short-tailed white-faced sheep in mainland Scotland.  It mentions Dunfaced/Tanfaced sheep, but I could find no description of them.  The implication is that the Hebridean sheep were closely allied to the Shetland and the short-tailed mainland sheep (p 150).  Also see p 68, which says that the original Cheviot was "of somewhat mixed type", perhaps conflicting with the other ref.
Two things trouble me. One is that the origin given in the article has no primary source; the other is that other apparently authoritative sources appear to disagree on vital facts.  At the very least the situation is much less clear than the current wording of our article suggests.  Richard New Forest (talk) 23:26, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know. The presumed association with the Old Scottish Shortwool or Tan/Dun Face with the Soay feels like synthesis original research. None of the sources here or that I've seen suggest that they mean the Soay when they talk about this breed, and to say so looks like pretty wild supposition. The most reliable of the sources to be found treat the Old Scottish Shortwool/Dun Face as a now-extinct breed separate from the Soay, and that's how Wikipedia should too. In any case, it is completely obvious from the Boreray's phenotype that they have been heavily influenced by the Scottish Blackface, and are not significantly similar to the Soay in any of their traits (other than the fact that they're both short-tailed breeds). Steven Walling (talk) 23:45, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Yes, you're right, it's only my presumption that Soay might be related to the Dunface.  The problem is that it looks very much as though no more than similar presumption lies behind the idea that the Boreray is derived from the Dunface, and we need to treat this with caution until we can find a much better primary ref. Speculation is speculation, not fact.
Yes, it's obvious that the Boreray has been influenced by the Blackface, though I'm not sure about the "heavily", as the Boreray still has a short tail, and the colour pattern is the only obvious feature from the Blackface.
Have you found any sources describing the Dunface/Shortwool?  Was it the same as the Shetland/Ronaldsay/Hebridean type? My first bulleted source above implies so (p 6).  It also says that the Scottish Blackface itself arose from crosses of Scottish Shortwools from English blackfaced sheep, and so the Boreray is a "fossilised" early Scottish Blackface.
If it is true that the Dunface is the same as the Shetland/Ronaldsay/Hebridean type, then it would be clearer and no less accurate to say "the Boreray is derived from crosses of Scottish Blackface with earlier Hebridean sheep".  Richard New Forest (talk) 09:05, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to be buying some more rare breeds books in the coming weeks, which may help me find more resources to clear this up. But in the meantime, I agree that it would be no less accurate to use the quote you suggest. Steven Walling (talk) 20:47, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Boreray sheep/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Chiswick Chap (talk · contribs) 07:05, 20 November 2015 (UTC)


### Comments
Northern European short-tailed sheep - wikilink in main text.  Done
Well you hadn't, actually, so I've done it for you. Please check the output article carefully before adding "done" marks.
Could usefully be a 'further' link.  Done
Eh? There isn't a "further" or "main" link anywhere in the article.
primarily raised for meat and wool - conflicts with the primarily conservation grazing argument of the main text. Please rearrange, cite, and make consistent.   Done
The text argues that the breed is primarily raised for meat and wool, and conservation grazing. Sources 10 and 11, section Use in Farming. TheMagikCow (talk) 10:40, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, but the lead doesn't.
reads much better now. thank you. TheMagikCow (talk) 12:38, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Second para of lead seems to belong in main text. It needs to be cited.  Done
Lead needs to be rethought once it has been reorganized and made consistent with the main text: its job is to summarize the article, providing a short readable version of it; it must not introduce new information.
"Category 2: Endangered" should similarly be mentioned in main text.  Done
The "there is between 300 and 500 known to exist" of History conflicts with the numbers given in Population. Please update and clarify. (The "is" needs to go too.)  Done
"Conservation grazing" needs to be explained, and probably linked and cited.  Done
Soay sheep should be removed from See also.  Done
The differences between Soay and Boreray sheep need to be explained and cited.  Done
Horned "females": why not say ewes?  Done
"Complete spirals" - whatever is a complete spiral, given that spirals can be infinite? What seems to be meant is that the horns of rams spiral (with age) through more than 360 degrees, forming one or more complete turns, whereas those of ewes turn more slowly.  Done - Greater than 360 degrees.
I've copy-edited to remove the suggestion of completeness.
As for adjectives, this source says "The rams have striking majestic horns" which is exactly right and might be worth quoting.  Done
How small is "small"? this source says "they stand approximately 55cm at the withers".  Done - You expanded it into text, I presume and I have sourced when it appeared. TheMagikCow (talk) 18:46, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Not me, I think, but no matter.
Are we to understand that the Boreray does in fact represent an unmodified St Kildian sheep as used by the former inhabitants, unlike both the Hebridean and the Soay? This seems worth discussing in the text, with refs of course.  Done
Do Borerays now always have just one pair of horns? If their ancestors in C18th "often" had two pairs, when was this trait lost? Four-horned sheep of other breeds are still exhibited in Scotland.
I've checked and can't find any recent mentions of the trait.
One of the few surviving descendants of the Dunface: which are the other rare breeds that descend from the Dunface? A brief mention with links would be helpful as context.  Done
Tweeds: can we have some detail on what these are, who weaves them, what they are used for, and perhaps a photo of the product?  Done
"most of the population are thought to be feral" - should be "is".  Done
Image caption "less typical darker colouring" - could wikilink that text to "animal coloration".  Done
References - it would be helpful to provide authors, dates and Publishers of any documents such as Breed Data Sheets cited.  Done
Could you provide more detail on what this is and some examples. Sorry! TheMagikCow (talk) 13:02, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Nothing remarkable, just |date=29 February 2017 |author=Smith, John |publisher=Ministry of Food, that sort of thing.
I think that you have very kindly done that. thank you, but if there is anything more that I can do please ask. TheMagikCow (talk) 16:01, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
It might be wise to go to https://archive.org/ and check that any such pages have been archived (or else at once to archive the pages yourself), so the links don't "rot". Even government pages have a habit of being moved to the national archives. (You can then add |archiveurl= and |archivedate= to these refs to protect them.)

This is an informative article on a very rare breed, properly cited and covering the main points in clear and concise form. I'm happy to accept it into the fold of good articles. Well done. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:57, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very much for all of your help and reviews - much appreciated! TheMagikCow (talk) 16:05, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm thinking of trying to do some work on this page – tightening up the sourcing and citations, copy-editing the text and so on. If I were to do so I would change the in-text references to the list-defined system – references defined in the reference section, not in the text – and to hand-written refs (without cite templates), both changes for the sake of simplicity and clarity. I'll probably do that in a day or two if – and only if – there's no objection. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:38, 5 August 2025 (UTC)