# Talk:A Perfect Circle

I was surprised to see there was not a List of songs recorded by A Perfect Circle. I redirected the page to here for now, but feel free to get a list going before me if you have time and interest. ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:49, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I've written/maintained most things APC since about 2010. I'd be knowledgable and helpful if someone went this route, though I've never really bothered with any of these song list articles. There doesn't seem to a guideline as to at which point it's acceptable for a band to have one, and there seems to be a 50/50 chance of them getting deleted at AFD as a result. I'm not sure they're prolific enough to warrant one... Sergecross73 msg me 17:05, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Why would anyone need such a list for APC songs? It's not like they have a myriad of b-sides spread across a dozen of singles and soundtracks -BlameRuiner (talk) 20:46, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

For reference in rewrite, here's what the article looked like when first made a GA on Sept 30, 2008. Sergecross73 msg me 16:57, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

http://m.rollingstone.com/music/news/q-a-maynard-james-keenan-knows-where-to-score-a-good-wig-20130917 Sergecross73 msg me  18:40, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
http://www.blabbermouth.net/search?s=a+perfect+circle - The pretty liberally tag APC to their article, but upon digging, there are relevant sources in there. Sergecross73 msg me 20:47, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
http://www.thetulsavoice.com/April-A-2017/Emotional-not-mathematical/
http://www.sltrib.com/entertainment/5160919-155/concert-preview-a-perfect-circle-comes?fullpage=1 Sergecross73 msg me 16:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
http://www.laweekly.com/music/a-perfect-circles-maynard-james-keenan-discusses-wine-songwriting-and-his-new-biography-8161874 Sergecross73 msg me 13:40, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

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http://loudwire.com/maynard-james-keenan-explains-delays-new-tool-a-perfect-circle-albums/ Sergecross73 msg me 13:39, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
http://alibi.com/music/54435/A-Perfect-Circle-of-Acquaintances-and-Friends.html Sergecross73 msg me 20:57, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
http://www.vulture.com/2018/04/review-a-perfect-circles-new-album-eat-the-elephant.html Sergecross73 msg me 04:03, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Would anyone know a tool to quickly fill these in here? It looks silly on any article, let alone a GA on a band. 104.39.141.47 (talk) 23:57, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

I did a massive rewrite because the old version was nowhere near the current day GA standards, which is much higher than back when this was made a GA. (Honestly I don't think it was even old standard GA level really.) I left the URLs bare - usually other people end up doing it. I must admit though, it's rather rare/bizarre to come across someone who knows enough to request ref formatting, but not enough to do it themselves. Sergecross73 msg me 00:24, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Well, I'll tell you right now, the above IP was me, and I would have, it's just my Reflinks bookmark was broken and I wasn't well informed. I don't use it a lot, but I see reason to use it here.  I went ahead and fixed it for you, I hope that doesn't obstruct anything. (It shouldn't, right?) dannymusiceditor  Speak up!  17:10, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Ah, gotcha, that makes sense. Like I said, its pretty rare that someone cares enough about formatting refs, but not enough to make an account, haha. Thanks for doing it. Sergecross73 msg me 17:17, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm fine with your genre trimming in the infobox as well. They kept on getting tinkered with by random passerby editors, and I stopped caring as long as they were adding them as long as they were sourced in the body, which they all were. But that being said, the three you left really are the three core ones, so I'm fine either way. Sergecross73 msg me 17:24, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

As I've recently added to the the article, the band released a teaser today for something called "The Doomed", without explaining if it referred to a song or an album. See sources like http://abcnewsradioonline.com/music-news/2017/10/13/a-perfect-circle-teases-something-called-the-doomed.html for details.
FYI, I've been working on a draft for the album in my userspace, at User:Sergecross73/APC4. If "The Doomed", or anything else, is announced as an album title, we should use the draft, rather than how it goes down sometimes, where a editor hastily throws together a single sentence article that gets sent to deletion because it looks like its too early to have an article. Sources have been discussing a future release for almost a decade. As soon as this album gets an actual name, there's more than enough sourcing available to prove the notability of the album. We just need a name, and I'll move it into the mainspace. Sergecross73 msg me 21:01, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Update: The Doomed is a song, has been released, and has an article, while the album still has no name, so it stays in the draft space. Sergecross73 msg me 20:29, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

An IP is challenging the use of the term, so I figured I'd show that sources clearly, directly, and consistently use the label. This is what I found in less than a minute of searching. (So much more can be found if really needed.) All are deemed reliable and usable sources per WP:MUSIC/SOURCES.

https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/7617841/a-perfect-circle-first-tour-6-years
https://pitchfork.com/news/watch-a-perfect-circles-new-music-video-for-the-doomed/
https://www.spin.com/2017/06/a-perfect-circle-fall-tour/
https://www.moderndrummer.com/2017/03/jeff-friedl-tour-perfect-circle/
http://news.radio.com/2016/12/12/a-perfect-circle-2017-tour-dates/
https://www.revolvermag.com/music/watch-perfect-circle-perform-new-single-doomed-live-first-time
Please stop removing it. Thanks. Sergecross73 msg me 13:51, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

So, I don't really want to open up a full-on genre debate or anything (I rewrote the whole musical styles section to avoid that sort of stuff, which has brought relative stability to it since doing earlier in the year), but I wanted to make sure I get the few experienced editors that maintain the article in addition to myself all on the same page - Binksternet and DannyMusicEditor.
Bink, I think Danny's thought process is just that there were too many genre in the infobox, and in an effort to de-clutter, he removed genre with less sources in the musical styles section. I don't think he was contesting the validity of art rock as a genre, just that it wasn't one of the primary ones used to describe this band.
I generally support trimming lots of genre from the infobox to a few core ones...but I also believe that A Perfect Circle is one of those bands diverse enough to actually warrant a ton of them. (opposed to your realitively straight forward Nickelbacks and Breaking Benjamins of the world.) So really, I'm fine either way on this one, and a few of the other ones just used sometimes. Sergecross73 msg me 19:05, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

I weighed the sources and concluded that AllMusic and Oxford University Press should be represented in their analysis, as they are especially respected publications. And they're not alone in calling the band art rock. In the Spin piece "Hammer of the Gods", professional music reviewer Chris Norris describes how Keenan ended a concert by A Perfect Circle, then Norris writes, "Clearly, Keenan has got this whole art rock thing perfectly wired." In the Keenan book A Perfect Union of Contrary Things, Keenan and his co-author Sarah Jensen write about how the band developed during a mini tour: "At each stop, the lyrics were more polished, the presentation more professional, and the gate more satisfying as word spread of this surprising alt-metal, art rock, operatic band." Finally, metal biographer Joel McIver wrote in Unleashed: The Story of TOOL, that Keenan's three bands had connections in their musical styles: "Tool's difficult, challenging art, A Perfect Circle's political art rock and Puscifer's lightweight groove..." So if trimming is in order, I would like to see art rock stay in the mix. Binksternet (talk) 02:28, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
I have no problem with art rock being in the infobox, so long as more citations are added on the article. There was only one previously, and if you can find more, very well, I will support its addition. Bink, these are bona fide references that give plenty of support, I just didn't want to see a single-ref genre thrown in with ones that have three, four references. dannymusiceditor  Speak up!  16:02, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Good examples. I feel more strongly about it being in the info I'd now too (though as Danny says, we should put your sources in the musical styles section too.) I would, but I'm stuck on mobile for a bit. I will later if no one else does in the short-term. Sergecross73 msg me 16:24, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

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https://www.laweekly.com/music/the-comings-and-goings-of-a-perfect-circle-10038751 Sergecross73 msg me 02:51, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
https://www.thegazette.com/subject/life/arts-and-culture/perfect-circle-emotive-eat-the-elephant-keenan-howerdel-20181107 Sergecross73 msg me 12:43, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Can someone edit the timeline to remove the lines?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.47.74.204 (talk) 03:06, 11 April 2020 (UTC) 

https://consequence.net/video/billy-howerdel-maynard-james-keenan-met-trent-reznor/ Sergecross73 msg me 16:17, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
https://metalinjection.net/interviews/billy-howerdel-talks-solo-album-tech-nightmares-working-with-nin-reflections-on-a-perfect-circles-thirteenth-step

The wiki contained the following sentence: "As Keenan was well known through his other band, he would often wear long wigs on his otherwise bald head when performing, to distinguish himself from his Tool persona." It then linked to three sources that do not confirm this claim, so it has now been removed.
The first source was a Youtube video embedded on the website of, and produced by, the music magazine Revolver. The video contains Keenan and Howerdel discussing wigs as Keenan tries wigs on in a wig shop. At no point in the video does Keenan or Howerdel claim that he "would often wear long wigs on his otherwise bald head when performing, to distinguish himself from his Tool persona."
The second was an article in the newspaper The Australian. This comes closest to the assertion that the wiki editor has made. The author of The Australian article observes that Keenan "took to wearing long, braided wigs in promotional images and on stage, perhaps in part to differentiate his persona from the one he inhabited in Tool." Please note the word *perhaps* — in other words, the author makes clear that this is their own speculation and not a fact. The Wiki editor most likely has taken this speculation and transformed it into fact, which is against wiki sourcing policy.
The third is an article in The Daily Bruin about an A Perfect Circle concert. The only mention of wigs in the article is a brief note that Keenan was "clothed in a simple outfit, with his trademark long brown wig and beanie." Nowhere does the article state anything suggesting Keenan ""would often wear long wigs on his otherwise bald head when performing, to distinguish himself from his Tool persona."
Meanwhile, in a 2004 interview with MTV News, which a wiki editor removed and replaced with this speculative at best information, Keenan explicitly says in response to a remark by journalist Kurt Loder about his wearing wigs: "That started when I had a son. That's the main reason for the makeup, the wigs, the bras, whatever you've seen in the past with Tool. I just like the incognito aspect, because now I can wander around even where I live and not really be hassled too much. I just think it's really unfair for my child to have to be victimized by my career — you know, here you are signing autographs in the 7-11. It seems ridiculous to me. And I try not to be in my videos." Keenan's explicit stated reason for wearing wigs was to maintain personal privacy.
Please do not reverse this again by inserting speculative info.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Icanttalkaboutit (talk • contribs) 20:47, 1 August 2023 (UTC) 

Please assume good faith. I'm not trying to "add false info" into the article (what would my motivation even be with dealing with such a claim?) To be clear, the claim has been in the article at least since it passed its GA nomination in September 2008, and was not originally written by myself (I joined Wikipedia December 2008).
That obviously doesn't mean its automatically correct, but I know I've seen Keenan make the claim before (and come on, you have to imagine there's a reason why not a single person has challenged the claim in the last 15 years.) I'm just struggling to locate it at the moment. We're 90% there as is - the Revolver source demonstrates he specifically wears wigs for APC, and the Australian source posits that its to keep the 2 bands separate - I'm just looking for a source that definitively mentions it as the reason. I thought we were close enough, but if you want to be bizarre strict on this extremely minor point, I can keep searching. Sergecross73 msg me 21:16, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Apologies for being overly blunt there. Obvs editors on wiki are (almost) always working in good faith. Anyhow, simply put "I know I've seen Keenan make the claim before" is not a source. And an Australian newspaper reporter hypothesising that someone did something is not cause to say they, in fact, did that thing. And "you have to imagine there's a reason why not a single person has challenged the claim in the last 15 years" is also not an argument — incorrect or not fully substantiated information is left up in places all the time, not just on Wikipedia, for all different kinds of reasons and lengths of time. It makes no difference how long something has been in a Wiki article — if it's not properly sourced or substantiated, it is not properly sourced or substantiated.
Lastly, it's not "bizarrely strict" to say if you're going to state something as factual that it has to be proven as factual. If there's a source or an interview where Keenan explicitly says he wears wigs with APC to distinguish himself from his Tool persona, go for it Bob's your uncle etc. But unless there is it can't be stated as fact in the article. That's how Wikipedia works in the most simple and basic way. Icanttalkaboutit (talk) 22:14, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Spare me the lecture, I'm well aware of how the website works. I object to the accusation of adding false information - I reverted you once to restore a sentence that was mostly-but-not-entirely sourced, and already said I wouldn't revert again until I find further sources. My comment about it being in the article 15 years was merely a reminder to you to exercise common sense. None of this interaction instills confidence that you are. Sergecross73 msg me 22:50, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Well again my apologies. I wasn't lecturing, I was just responding to you point by point. That aside — and I do want to very much emphasize this is completely sincere — thank you for that understanding and thank you for all the excellent contributions to the APC wiki and related APC song wikis. The lion's share of the good stuff here would not exist without your work. Icanttalkaboutit (talk) 02:31, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
https://www.loudersound.com/features/tool-hope-they-make-another-album-before-someone-dies Sergecross73 msg me 13:24, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

https://metalinjection.net/news/a-new-a-perfect-circle-album-may-be-coming-soon-its-all-about-timing Sergecross73 msg me 14:04, 9 June 2025 (UTC)
https://www.revolvermag.com/feature/a-perfect-circle-at-25-maynard-james-keenan-and-billy-howerdel-look-back-and-ahead/ Sergecross73 msg me 19:27, 9 June 2025 (UTC)