# Talk:Argos (dog)

I named my dog Argos after this loyal pup.  It's such a sappy, silly part of the story.
---Haha, very true, but to be fair, it's mostly "sappy" because so many people have reused it. I still look forward to it every time I read the Odyssey....  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.134.122 (talk) 12:17, 8 July 2012 (UTC) 
It's sappy to us but I have a feeling that it is the first time in Western literature that the "dog/master" relationship is used this way as a metaphor for faithfulness and fidelity.  Can anyone confirm whether this is the case?  Partnerfrance (talk) 18:18, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Maera was a dog that led Erigone to her slain father's body, Icarius (not to be confused with the Icarius in the Odyssey). When they found the body both were overcome with grief and Erigone hanged herself and Maera lept off a cliff. I'm not sure if this story predates the Odyssey though. PedanticSophist (talk) 17:48, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The Odyssey just so happens to be a poem... Maybe it would be proper to break it up into lines? I may come back to do this later.
Tullie 19:06, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Why is it spelled that way over the info box? 38.73.253.217 (talk) 16:42, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Death of a loyal servant who had waited faithfully for his master only to pass away before he could return from the war… at least he was seen Allyseus (talk) 10:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion, the current lead image is a poor choice, partly because it's drab and badly drawn, but mostly because it is not at all clear that this is actually a depiction of Odysseus and Argos. Yes, it is identified that way in the 19th-century publication from which the drawing uploaded to Commons was taken, but on what grounds? Without any other identifying attributes, a man with a staff and a dog is not an iconographical lock for O. and A. Depictions of men and dogs are common in Greek art, and this particular man is young and beardless as well as nude, which is not at all what one would expect in a representation of Odysseus. The gem in question was formerly in the collection of the topographer William Leake, and is now in the Fitzwilliam Museum in Cambridge. The Fitzwilliam web site appears to be down at the moment, so I don't know what, if anything, they have to say about it, but J. H. Middleton, who was briefly the curator of the museum in the late 19th century, published a catalogue of the Fitzwilliam gem collection in 1891, and he describes the scene like this: "a youth, nude, leaning on a jagged staff, bends downwards to caress his dog, which looks up affectionately at its master" (Appendix, p. vii, no. 10). No mention of Odysseus or Argos. Instead he compares it to a similar gem from the Cesnola collection, now in the Metropolitan Museum in New York, and to the representations of dogs accompanying idealized nude youths on Athenian funerary stelai. In fact, "nude youth with dog" is a fairly common subject for Greek gems, and one can easily add other examples, like this one in the Getty collection, or these two in the Louvre (one, two), or these three in the British Museum (one, two, three). I see nothing to suggest that the figures on any of these gems, including the one in the Fitzwilliam, are intended to be understood as as Odysseus and Argos. 
If you'd like to compare these to a gem that does depict Odysseus and Argos, have a look at this one. Here the man is older and bearded and clad in a traveling costume, and the identification is clinched by the fact that he is wearing a pilos, a very common attribute of Odysseus in both Greek and Roman art. This gem, originally from the collection of the Polish prince Stanislaw Poniatowski and last seen in an auction at Christie's in London in 1999, would be a fine lead image, but unfortunately the photo is not in the public domain, so we can't upload it to the Commons.
But I have an alternative suggestion for you: a Roman Republican coin issued in 82 B.C. by Gaius Mamilius Limetanus (see Coinage of the Roman Republic Online RRC 362/1). It bears on the reverse a little vignette of a man and his dog, and in this case too the identification of the man as Odysseus is confirmed by the pilos.  The Commons has several images of this coin in c:Category:Coins by C. Mamilius Limetanus; the clearest image of the reverse is probably File:Odysseus Argos roman coin.JPG. It's not as clear as the Poniatowski gem, but it is both (a) ancient and (b) certainly meant to be Odysseus and Argos, which I think makes it better for the lead than any of the other images currently in the article. 
Cheers, Choliamb (talk) 21:02, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Choliamb: I find your argument compelling and agree that we should use a better image. My concern about the image you selected is twofold: it is worn to the point of being unclear and whether the ancient nature of the image has any bearing on whether it should be used. To the first point, have you considered the image File:Traianus- Restitution - Münzkabinett, Berlin - 5488480.jpg? If the image were cropped to only show the reverse (right), that would be a much better quality image for the lede. To the second point, neither of these coins are contemporary images of these characters so I'm not sure if the age of the object in question is of any benefit. Other fictional characters from literature often have modern (or close to modern) images for their ledes (e.g., Wilkins Micawber [1912], Prince Hamlet [1864], etc.). If we were to choose an image that best suits the character itself within the context of the Odyssey, I would strongly suggest either File:Louis Frederic Schutzenberger - Retour d'Ulysse.jpg, File:Ulysses and Argo.png, or File:Chatterbox1886 0373.jpg. Each of these images highlights one major aspect of Argos in the poem: the first shows Odysseus's stoic attitude (see the article for: "Odysseus's restraint demonstrates his resolve"), the second one (esp if the words are cropped out) really sells the pathetic form of both characters, and the Chatterbox one has him sitting on a pile of (what looks to be) manure, as he does in the poem, which is missing from basically every other image of the dog.  Look forward to your comments. ThaesOfereode (talk) 22:20, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
I have no objection to a modern illustration if that's what you prefer. As you say, any Greek or Roman image you can find is still going to be centuries later than the time of the composition of the Homeric poems, so neither a 5th-century BC sealstone nor a 1st-century BC coin is any more "contemporary" than a 17th-century engraving. Since Argos is not a historical dog, but a fictional character, I think it's fine to use any illustration you like (as long as it actually does depict Argos and Odysseus).
As for the Trajanic reissue of the Republican coin, it is certainly clearer, so by all means use it if you think it's appropriate. It would be nice to have an ancient image somewhere in the article, just for balance, even if it's not the lead. But I'll leave the decision to you. My only objection was to the inclusion of the Fitzwilliam gem, and as long as the article no longer claims that it depicts O. and A., you have satisfied me completely. Cheers, Choliamb (talk) 23:01, 14 December 2024 (UTC)