# Talk:30 Rockefeller Plaza

I have removed the following paragraph and image gallery from the article. While this addition is very interesting (and sources for each of these probably exist), none of these is sufficiently sourced, even the final one. The LA Times source for the Embarcadero Center leads to a bunch of search results, and the actual source says nothing about 30 Rockefeller Plaza or the RCA Building.

Several later buildings were inspired by 30 Rock. Harrison & Abramovitz, who participated in the design of Rockefeller Center, went on to design 525 William Penn Place in Pittsburgh. It has similar materials and massing, and orients the narrow face of the tower toward Mellon Square, which was established at the same time. Postmodern skyscrapers based on 30 Rock include NBC Tower in Chicago, Wells Fargo Center in Minneapolis, and Georgia-Pacific Tower in Atlanta. The Embarcadero Center in San Francisco, developed by David Rockefeller as “Rockefeller Center West” , incorporates slab-style highrises reminiscent of 30 Rock.
 – Epicgenius (talk) 16:19, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Would this be a suitable source for the Wells-Fargo Center:
https://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/15/arts/architecture-view-cesar-pelli-seeks-the-perfect-skyscraper.html
And here is one for NBC Tower:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1989-04-23-8904060535-story.html
Here is one for Pittsburgh:
https://apps.pittsburghpa.gov/dcp/Pittsburgh_Central_Downtown_NR_Nomination-4.pdf
Per Page 10: "Built in 1950-1951 by the same firm, Harrison and Abramovitz, the design of the Mellon Bank/U.S. Steel Company Headquarters was “as conservative as the Alcoa was daring, and as costly as Alcoa was economical: the verticality of its limestone ribbon piers flanked by stainless steel fins recalls the RCA and Empire State Buildings” (Newhouse 1989:150). Chevron-patterned aluminum panels enliven the recessed spandrels of the 41-story slab skyscraper and contribute to its latter-day Art Deco feel."
This source discusses the similarity of Mellon Square with Rockefeller Plaza:
https://www.archpaper.com/2016/08/mellon-square-modern-landscapes-review/ 2601:C2:87F:1FD0:C1F8:120B:AF2:DE46 (talk) 20:13, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
The AIA Guide to San Francisco has this to say about the Embarcadero Center:
“Next was a series of office towers and elevated shops– the Embarcadero Center… with massing inspired by Rockefeller Center in New York.”
This is clearly referring to the style of the office buildings themselves being reminiscent of 30 Rock, not the site plan of the complex being similar. The guide goes on to say that the Embarcadero's site plan, “represents the attitude of antiurbanism prevalent in the 1950s-1970s.” 2601:C2:87F:1FD0:C1F8:120B:AF2:DE46 (talk) 20:35, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for these sources—I think these may be usable. I'll take a more in-depth look tomorrow. Epicgenius (talk) 05:54, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
I've added these to the Rockefeller Center article. I think 525 William Penn Pl. and the NBC Tower could also be mentioned in the 30 Rock article, but the other sources only mention Rockefeller Center, not 30 Rock specifically. – Epicgenius (talk) 19:18, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
I don't really understand how you could dismiss the Wells Fargo Center being inspired by 30 Rockefeller Plaza specifically. Per the New York Times article:
“The underlying inspiration for the Norwest Center is one of the greatest of all 20th-century skyscrapers, the RCA Building at Rockefeller Center. The RCA is a massive slab of limestone, with setbacks that give the building both elegance and great power.”
I read the source I provided for the Embarcadero Center as saying the architectural massing of the 4 office buildings in the EC were inspired by 30 Rockefeller Center in particular, since it's really the only building that they really look like. But certainly being inspired by the architecture of the center includes being inspired by its main building. 2601:C2:87F:1FD0:8596:C5B2:FCA9:3E2A (talk) 04:27, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
The Wells Fargo Center is obviously inspired, no doubt. Just look at it! Same with the NBC Tower in Chicago, which has the added bonus of being, well, NBCms regional HQ. (The peacock logo is inescapable at 30 Rock, right down to the carpet in the elevators, in addition to being on top of the building now. In fact, the peacock on the top of the west facade of 30 Rock was modeled after the one on the NBC Tower's west facade.
That New York Times review of the Wells Fargo Center could source the section alone, as all the buildings being discussed here are specifically compared to it and the 30 Rock. That said, some of the comparison is direct contrast highlighting the differences. The Embarcadero Center is contrasted in the buildings forms as being far more of a modernist design because of the asymmetry, for example. It's broad strokes at best, and pretty much any narrow slab building with setbacks could be compared to 30 Rock. (In the EC's case, I think it's more about it being a complex concept with a few hints of building form that evoke than a major inspiration in appearance, but that's just my opinion.) I think we should be probably be voting two sources for each to show that it's not the isolated thoughts of one writer in an opinion piece (as critic reviews actually are). oknazevad (talk) 11:43, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
I completely missed that the NY Times review mentioned the RCA Building. As oknazevad says, the source is actually describing how these buildings were, in a sense, different from the RCA Building. Nonetheless, that source is already used in the Rockefeller Center article - I just copied it over to this article and directly quoted Goldberger as saying that Embarcadero and Peachtree Centers may have been inspired by 30 Rock. (I've also added a little more detail about the NBC Tower's similarities to 30 Rock.) – Epicgenius (talk) 00:40, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
Would anyone be opposed to adding small gallery of these buildings? 2601:C2:87F:1FD0:F14E:8B63:C151:EAA0 (talk) 15:20, 19 December 2023 (UTC)