# Talk:Billy Sunday

There should be a section about her legacy and influence on later evangelicals.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.125.130.21 (talk) 13:58, 16 October 2019 (UTC) 

I added more about Sunday's relationship with the Klan, including a source about an incident in Bangor, Maine in 1927. There is some conflict since one of the references claims that he never praised the Klan but that was clearly not the case.--User:Namiba 16:07, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d33khh7rItE&ab_channel=AscentofMountCarmel 2601:249:1681:DCA0:0:0:0:A0F9 (talk) 04:42, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d33khh7rItE&ab_channel=AscentofMountCarmel  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:249:1681:DCA0:0:0:0:A0F9 (talk) 03:24, 9 April 2022 (UTC) 

Hope you approve of the tweaks I've made to the sentences about Sunday's relationship to the Klan. John Foxe (talk) 04:19, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

38.240.241.32 (talk) 19:10, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

This article is full of overly-promotional language. It takes a more or less uncritical lens and seeks to put Sunday in the best possible light. I've tagged the article and I hope others will join me in rewriting this article with neutral language.--User:Namiba 13:08, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

You need to be specific and suggest alternatives for what you consider "overly-promotional," especially because this article has been rated GA. Twice actually. The GA rating was unsuccessfully challenged in 2009.23:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC) John Foxe (talk) 23:44, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
For example, "With his wife administering the campaign organization, Sunday was free to do what he did best: compose and deliver colloquial sermons." "Although he never lost his sympathy for the poor and sincerely tried to bridge the gulf between the races during the zenith of the Jim Crow era,[70] Sunday did receive contributions from members of the Second Ku Klux Klan during the 1920."--User:Namiba 14:10, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
Those statements are adequately cited. At the very least you need to prove that they aren't. If you can improve the article do so, and I'll support you. But don't tag the article just because it's easy to do. John Foxe (talk) 01:25, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Per WP:WNTRMT, you should not remove maintenance tags when "There is ongoing activity or discussion related to the template issue." Please stop doing so until the NPOV issue has been resolved.--User:Namiba 17:52, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
Statements like those above indicate that better sources are needed. Dorset's book, published more than 30 years ago by a religious publishing house, needs to called into question as a definitive source. For example, there is an inherent contradiction between someone who "tried to bridge the gap between the races" and someone who was strongly favored by the Ku Klux Klan. Until this contradiction is adequately resolved in a neutral manner, the tags should remain.--User:Namiba 18:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
Find the appropriate source first. Don't say one should exist simply because you want to believe it must. Sunday both attempted to bridge the gap between races and was favored by the KKK. To deny that combination was impossible a hundred years ago, without evidence, reflects modern bias. You'll need to get into the weeds in Sunday biography if you want to improve this article. John Foxe (talk) 02:47, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
@Namiba, I removed the "do what he did best:" on the first sentence, which I think sounds less editorialized now. I'm not really seeing the problem with the second sentence. That we're getting inside Sunday's head too much in assuming that his apparent sympathy for the poor was genuine? ~Awilley (talk) 04:06, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
Yes, this article extensively relies on a 33-year old source from a religious publishing house to paint Sunday in the best possible light. The Dorset book is cited 41 times in the article. Relying on a potentially less than reliable source is part of the problem. A more recent scholarly source highlights Sunday's close relationship with the Klan more clearly.[1]--User:Namiba 13:02, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
I welcome any improvements based on reliable sources. John Foxe (talk) 02:08, 22 April 2024 (UTC)