# Talk:Battle of Grunwald

The old history of this page is at Battle of Tannenberg, but a history merge is not appropriate because that page once contained some text that is now at Battle of Tannenberg (1914). Because of the current setup, I think that it would be very difficult to find the old page history, so I think that it's worth noting here. Graham87 10:38, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The link to Teutonic Knights in the lead in paragraph points to the wrong location
Docdave (talk) 00:54, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

What do you mean? It leads to Teutonic Knights. Where do you think it leads? Renata (talk) 01:46, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Battle of Grunwald/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: mark nutley (talk) 21:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Passed quick-fail check. mark nutley (talk) 18:23, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

GA review (see here for criteria)
It is reasonably well written.
a (prose):  b (MoS): 

It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR): 

It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects):  b (focused): 

It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias: 

It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.: 

It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions): 

Overall:
Pass/Fail: 

Is this review is over or not?? M.K. (talk) 04:40, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
No i am still working on it but time has been short, i shall finish it tonight mark nutley (talk) 06:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

in medieval documents Jogajlo not only Wladyslaw Jagiełło. for example: Cronica conflictus Wladislai Regis Poloniae cum cruciferis anno Christi 1410

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.199.253.225 (talk) 21:29, 24 August 2010 (UTC) 

Hundreds of academic sources uses Jogaila, thus name stays. M.K. (talk) 04:37, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
And an example?Lithuanian historians only write so. Jogajło a pagan name. Not Polish king of that name.As the Polish king Wladyslaw II only use the name.
Give example of a medieval document, which refers to "jogailo". Jan Dlugosz says, "Władysław Jagiełło". included in the bibliography are works of historians who write Wladyslaw (Burleigh,Christiansen,Kuczynski,Davies,Sven Ekdahl...).
At 100 % no one will find the king of the Polish "jogajlo". 
For someone who knows the history of Polish, this article is not understandable. Bibliography of books talk about Wladyslaw II.

Looking at this edit, where an editor changed all the dates into US format. The article began with dates in International format. As it is not a subject with strong ties to an English-speaking nation using the US format, dates should therefore be in International format. I refer to the Manual of Style:
Full date formatting
In general, the following formats are acceptable:

Month before day: February 14 and February 14, 1990 (comma required)
Day before month: 14 February and 14 February 1990 (no comma)
Date formatting in an article is governed by the following three guidelines.
Format consistency

Dates in article body text should all have the same format.
Dates in article references should all have the same format.
These requirements apply to dates in general prose and reference citations, but not to dates in quotations or titles.
Strong national ties to a topic

Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country should generally use the more common date format for that nation. For the US this is month before day; for most others it is day before month. Articles related to Canada may use either format consistently.
Sometimes the customary format differs from the usual national one: for example, articles on the modern US military use day before month, in accordance with military usage.
Retaining the existing format

If an article has evolved using predominantly one format, the whole article should conform to it, unless there are reasons for changing it based on strong national ties to the topic.
The date format chosen by the first major contributor in the early stages of an article should continue to be used, unless there is reason to change it based on strong national ties to the topic. Where an article has shown no clear sign of which format is used, the first person to insert a date is equivalent to "the first major contributor".
Thanks! --Pete (talk) 01:17, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

yeah, the reason for the revert was changing dates and not removing glaring pov pushing... Renata (talk) 03:15, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
sorry, this rubbed me wrong way. Renata (talk) 04:45, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
That's okay - looked like it was an attempt to change dates to the wrong style. I'm staying well out of the POV aspects of the battle itself! --Pete (talk) 08:12, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

The naming section is not properly referenced; refs need to be added for this article to maintain its GA status. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 22:37, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

...or just remove the unsourced part as, aside from the German and Lithuanian names , I don't think it's that significant. However, there are several other statements made throughout the article which are unsourced, mostly paragraph ending sentences and the like.VolunteerMarek 04:28, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

The article claimed that the Teutonic side had a hundred cannons (with the Polish-Lithuanian side having 16). This is a ridiculously high number, especially given the date. The following book was given as source: Kinard, Jeff (2007), Artillery: An Illustrated History of Its Impact, Weapons and Warfare, ABC-CLIO, ISBN 978-1-85109-561-2. If the book really does say that, then it is not a reputable source. -- Zz (talk) 18:33, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I removed the following reference: 
July of the German Blitzkrieg. This newspaper article in Ukrainian language as is a sample 
of "Nazi and Soviet propaganda campains" mentioned
in the Introduction and in the last section. All sentences citing this article operate with
such notions as "ethnic cleansing" "ethnic Ukrainians", "Belorussians", "Blitzkrieg" and other evident anachronisms
which are out of place in a serious article on 15 century history. 
So I removed all sentences that cite this source.--User:Pym1507 (talk) 23:38, 2 September 2013 (ET)

Why "Grunwald"?  Every history book I have seen calls it the Battle of Tannenberg.  The Germans call it that.  'Grunwald' looks like an Anglicisation of the name 'Grünwald', derived from a label attributed by one chronicle.  The Battle of Tannenberg in the Great War was explicitly named after this mediaeval battle.-- Hogweard (talk) 12:40, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Grunwald is in fact a Polonization of the German Grünfelde. (The 1410 battlefield lay between the villages of Grünfelde / Grunwald and Tannenberg / Stębark.) -- Picapica (talk) 16:02, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

I call into question the neutrality of this page (and thus it's status as a good page), while it indeed provides sources the sources chosen can also reflect a lack of neutrality, there are a lot of overly specific details in this article that is unlikely that they should be known about a battle that took place 600 years ago, usually in reference to dramatis personae which makes it even less crediable. Someone should really go over these soruces and move what's unproven myth based on contemporary sources and later embelishment to it's own paragraph.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.254.139.195 (talk) 11:50, 4 October 2015 (UTC) 

The declaration of the picture in the Part "Battle end" seems wrong: The Tatar-warriors at Tannenberg wasnt muslims. Regards--MAGISTER (talk) 06:30, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Especially the future Khan Jalal-ad-din that the Lithuanian Great Duke welcomed him in his country. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 10:48, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

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While less numerous, the Teutonic army had advantages in discipline, military training and equipment.[31] Their heavy cavalry was among the best in Europe.
Is there actually any source to the latter claim? It's a pretty tall one considering the contemporary forces of pretty much any Western country (or Polish and Lithuanian knights, for that matter). 66.234.40.164 (talk) 04:01, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out, I have made it more vague. Renata (talk) 18:10, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

As of now, only the knights are listed as casualties (which, as pointed out by Renata3 makes sense since the sources are pretty sketchy). However, I think this at first glance makes it look that no other were killed apart from the knights, and in turn gives an unfair picture of the battle. Could "unknown number of soldiers" or similar be added in lieu of actual numbers? Oherik (talk) 07:13, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Oherik, you make a good point. I added a bit more detail in the infobox. Do you think this is ok now? Renata (talk) 17:33, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
Thank you, Renata, that does make it more clear. Oherik (talk) 17:51, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
The article wrote: Unknown (light). Instead of that the Polish casualties were very heavy. Astroplanet (talk) 06:30, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
It is impossible that 8000 Teutonic knights were killed, as there never were so many. At the battle about 200 were killed (of participating 250), the other knights killed being vassals or guests of the Orden.
--Jidu Boite (talk) 10:12, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Smolensk belonged to Rus', had no connection with Moscow till 1500. Xx236 (talk) 09:17, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

"As Władysław II Jagiełło delayed, the Grand Master sent messengers with two swords to "assist Władysław II Jagiełło and Vytautas in battle". The swords were meant as an insult and a provocation.[61] Known as the "Grunwald Swords", they became one of the national symbols of Poland." They were bi-(or more)lingual Silesians. And such "sword-present procedure" was quite usual before battles, old tradition. No provocation, no superbia etc.

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

"Галицькі хоругви у Грюнвальдскій битві 15 липня 1410 року".jpg
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:53, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Came to this to fix a couple of grammatical errors with the Ekdahl quotes, and fell down a rabbit hole.  I see that the Polish version of the article shows several disputed or unresolved matters, but these do not include any commentary on the recent claims by Ekdahl about the positions of each side.
What I did find was another reference that throws doubt on the claims that the new theory was "proven correct" as per the maps by @Jcw12. Don't get me wrong, the maps themselves are excellent, however there does not seem to be any evidence that these claims have been accepted.  This would have resulted in further surveys and research, including reassessment of contemporaneous accounts of the battle.  The only publication on the recent surveys I can find is a 2022 paper in Russian (https://dspace.spbu.ru/bitstream/11701/18362/1/448-468.pdf), which, as Strzyż & Wrzosek pointed out, is woefully lacking in scientific detail and methodology is scattergun. 
I would love to see more precise information if it's available, as this is a fascinating, important event.  History of the battle has been plagued with biased reporting since the time and as noted, any facts are waved about like flags by several countries. Davoloid (talk) 20:20, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

@F534707cfa: In your edit summary, you wrote Poland-Lithuania is neither considered Central Europe, nor has it ever been the dominant military force there.
This is easily refuted, & one need look no further than one of the citations for the article:

Most people, with the obvious and understandable exceptions of Poles and Lithuanians, do not realize that Poland and Lithuania were a joint continental superpower at one point in their histories. During the fifteenth century, the unified kingdoms of Poland and Lithuania were a joint continental superpower at one point in their histories. During the fifteenth century, the unified kingdoms of Poland and Lithuania were the largest European power, and the genesis of the Polish–Lithuanian union in 1386 is a good example of how dynastic politics and primal "national alliances" function in late feudal and early modern Central Europe.
Peaceray (talk) 17:50, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Can you please name me any historical event that suggests Poland-Lithuania was "dominant" over the Holy Roman Empire states in central Europe? In what way were they dominating? F534707cfa (talk) 12:35, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

At the end of the "Opposing forces" section, the current text states: "Jan Długosz stated that the low-ranking swordbearer of the Crown, Zyndram of Maszkowice, commanded the Polish army, but that is highly doubtful. More likely, marshal of the Crown Zbigniew of Brzezia commanded the Polish troops in the field."
I propose adjusting this to better reflect Długosz’s account and give Zyndram due credit, as the "highly doubtful" assessment lacks clear justification from the primary source, which remains the sole contemporary chronicle of the battle—published in 1480, just decades after the 1410 event—with later interpretations being conjectural without further primary evidence.
In Jan Długosz’s Historia Polonica (1415-1480), the only detailed account from the time, Zyndram is mentioned four times, providing consistent evidence of his significant role. Długosz does not suggest Zbigniew of Brzezia as an alternative commander.
This view is also supported by Polish historian Władysław Semkowicz’s 1910 study, Zyndram z Maszkowic, which, drawing on Długosz and archival records, argues that Zyndram served as an autonomous commander of the Polish left wing, significantly contributing to the victory by expertly organizing the battle lines and leading the Kraków Banner. Semkowicz highlights Zyndram’s experience against the Teutonic Order (e.g., guarding Kamieniec Litewski in 1390 and serving in 1393–1394 expeditions) and suggests his role as princeps militiae involved issuing orders and supporting weak points, countering the idea that his command was merely nominal.
Here is the source material from Jan Długosz’s Historia Polonica (1415-1480):
Page 20: [1] 
PL: "Władysław król w obec wojsk swoich rozwinąwszy chorągwie, z płaczem wzy­wa Boga na świadectwo, że nie on, ale nieprzyjaciele sam i dają powód do wojny; poczem Zyndramowi z Maszkowic porucza dowództwo nad wojskami ; Alexander zaś wielki książę Litewski dwóch bezbożnych Litwinów skazuje na szubienicę."
EN: ""King Władysław, in the presence of his troops, unfurled the banners and, with tears, called upon God as witness that it was not he, but the enemies themselves who were giving cause for war; after which he entrusted command of the troops to Zyndram of Maszkowice; meanwhile, Alexander, the great Duke of Lithuania, sentenced two godless Lithuanians to the gallows.""
Page 21: [2]
PL: "Ponieważ zaś wszyscy Czesi i Morawcy, uważani za najbieglejszych w wojowania sztuce, wymawiali się od steru i zwierzchnictwa nad wojskami królewskiemi i książęcemi, i żaden urzędu wodza przyjąć nie chciał, aby nań nie spadła wina w razie niepomyślnej wojny, zwłaszcza że lud trzeba było prowadzić liczny i kierować nie lada wyprawą, zlecono zatóm rząd i dowództwo Zyndramowi z Maszkowic, miecznikowi Krakowskiemu, szlachcicowi mającemu w herbie słońce; mężowi wprawdzie małej postawy, ale wielkiego serca i znanej w sprawach obrotności.
Żaden bowiem z Czechów i Morawców zaciągnionych w służbę królewską nie czuł się zdolnym do sprawowania i prowadzenia tak wielkiego wojska.
Skoro więc na rzeczonej równinie rozwinięto chorągwie, ruszył Władysław król Polski z całą siłą, i tegoż dnia między dwoma jeziorami, z których jedno zowie się Trzcino, a drugie Chełst, niedaleko miasteczka Ludborza (Lauterburg), już przez jego ludzi złupionego i spalonego, położył się obozem.”
EN: "Since all the Czechs and Moravians, considered the most skilled in the art of war, excused themselves from command and leadership over the royal and ducal armies, and no one wished to accept the office of commander, lest the blame fall upon him in the case of an unsuccessful war—especially since the people had to be led in great numbers and directed on no ordinary expedition—command and leadership were therefore entrusted to Zyndram of Maszkowice, swordbearer of Kraków, a nobleman bearing the sun in his coat of arms; a man indeed of small stature, but of great heart and known for his prudence in affairs.
For none of the Czechs and Moravians enlisted in royal service felt themselves capable of managing and leading such a great army.
So, when the banners were unfurled on the said plain, Władysław, King of Poland, marched forth with full force, and that very day, between two lakes—one called Trzcino, the other Chełst—near the town of Ludbórz (Lauterburg), already plundered and burned by his men, he made camp.""
Page 35: [3]
PL: "Kiedy Władysław król Polski zajmował się nabożeństwem i słuchaniem mszy świętej, wojsko tymczasem królewskie, za sprawą Zyndrama z Maszkowic, miecznika krakowskiego, a litewskie pod wodzą wiotkiego księcia Alexandra, ustawione w porządne hufce i chorągwie, z dziwną szybkością wystąpiło w szyku i stanęło zbrojno przeciw nieprzyjacielowi: Polacy na lewym skrzydle, Litwini rozwinęli się na prawym.”
EN: "While Władysław, King of Poland, was occupied with devotion and listening to Holy Mass, the royal army, under the direction of Zyndram of Maszkowice, swordbearer of Kraków, and the Lithuanian army under the command of the slender Prince Alexander, was arranged into orderly units and banners, and with remarkable speed marched into formation and stood armed against the enemy: the Poles on the left wing, the Lithuanians unfolded on the right."
Page 35: [4]
PL: "Pierwsza chorągiew wielka ziemi Krakowskiej, mająca w herbie orła białego z koroną na głowie i rozpostartemi skrzydły, w polu czerwoném: ta chorągiew przewyższała wszystkie inne siłą i liczbą, do tego bowiem znaku należeli celniejsi panowie i czoło rycerstwa Polskiego, żołnierze wysłużeni i ćwiczeni w boju. Prowadził ich Zyndram z Maszkowic, a niósł chorągiew Marcin z Wrócimowie, rycerz herbu Półkozic; na czele zaś i w pierwszym szyku, wedle starszeństwa i zasług, postępowało dziewięciu rycerzy, jako to”
EN: "The first great banner of the land of Kraków, bearing in its coat of arms a white eagle with a crown on its head and outstretched wings, on a red field: this banner surpassed all the others in strength and numbers, for to this standard belonged the most distinguished lords and the elite of the Polish knighthood, seasoned soldiers trained in battle. They were led by Zyndram of Maszkowice, and the banner was carried by Marcin of Wrócimowice, a knight of the Półkozic coat of arms; at the front and in the first rank, according to seniority and merit, marched nine knights, namely:"
These passages show Długosz attributing to Zyndram a key pre-battle command role, including organizing the Polish forces and leading the Kraków Banner, though he is silent on his actions during the battle itself. The skepticism about Zyndram commanding the Polish army may stem from this silence or later historiographical debate, but Długosz does not suggest Zbigniew of Brzezia as an alternative commander, and any assertion of Zbigniew’s role, made centuries later, lacks support from this primary source.
I suggest revising the statement to: "Jan Długosz, the sole contemporary chronicler whose Historia Polonica was published in 1480, described Zyndram z Maszkowice, the low-ranking Sword-bearer of the Crown, as overseeing the deployment of the Polish forces and leading the Kraków Banner before the Battle of Grunwald, with Władysław Semkowicz’s 1910 analysis supporting his autonomous command of the Polish left wing and significant tactical role."
This revision prioritizes Długosz’s text, credits Zyndram’s documented contributions, and adheres to verifiability standards. I encourage editors to review this evidence, verify the basis for Jučas’s claim via citation [52], and consider adjusting or striking the Zbigniew assertion if no primary support is found. Timba7 (talk) 23:26, 15 June 2025 (UTC)