# Talk:Banu Munqidh

This review is transcluded from Talk:Banu Munqidh/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Borsoka (talk · contribs) 14:14, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

...the Kinana branch... Consider linking to Banu Kinanah.
The Munqidhs belonged to a branch of the Banu Kalb called the Kinana, which was completely unrelated to the Banu Kinanah tribe of southwestern Arabia. Al Ameer (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
...also taken prisoner was the Hamdanid poet and governor Abu Firas al-Hamdani. Why is this relevant in the context of the article? Did al-Hamdani record Ali ibn Munqidh's fate or were they taken prisoner together?
I revised the wording a bit, but the relevance, if any, is the notability of Abu Firas, and yes they were captured together. --Al Ameer (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
...an iqṭāʿ (fief)... Is the term "fief" the best translation for iqṭāʿ?
Not quite. This one has always perplexed me as far finding a one or two-word synonym. Do you have a suggestion? Perhaps "land tax grant" or "land grant"? Al Ameer (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
Perhaps "land tax grant"?
...in the affairs of their nominal Mirdasid suzerains. Consider rephrasing this part of the sentence. (Affairs? Nominal? Suzerain?)
Removed altogether as it is an unnecessary summary sentence. The details follow in the rest of the passage. Al Ameer (talk) 18:43, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
...he was able to gain further recognition of the Banu Munqidh's budding principality. From whom did he gain further recognition? Why could he gain further recognition?
Looked back in the source and I am not sure how I came up with this. Revised per source. Al Ameer (talk) 18:43, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
...Sabiq's succession was opposed by the other members of the Mirdasid house... Did all other Midrasids opposed Sabiq? Consider rephrasing ("by his kinsmen/by other Mirdasids"/.../...)
Rephrased. Al Ameer (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
...for the allotment of iqṭāʿat to the Mirdasids in Aleppo's hinterland Was this a new iqṭāʿat, in addition to the lands around Shaizar? The term iqṭāʿat has not been introduced (even its association with the term iqṭāʿ' is quite obvious).
Introduced the plural after first mention of iqta. The iqta'at in question were not the Munqidhs', they just mediated the deal between the Mirdasids and Uqaylids. Al Ameer (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
...Ali began construction of the Hisn al-Jisr fortress... Perhaps "the construction"?
Done. Al Ameer (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
...in exchange for a certain sum... Consider clarifying that the price is unknown.
Done. Al Ameer (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
...the town bishop's home. Perhaps "the local bishop's home"? (The local bishopric was named for Al-Bara, not for Shaizar.)
Done. Al Ameer (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
Like their previous encounter with the Uqaylids... Perhaps "Like during their previous encounter..."?
Done. Al Ameer (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
...the family employed the same strategy to stave off an attack by the Seljuk ruler Sulayman ibn Qutulmush in 1085. I am not sure to what you are referring in this sentence. Do we know what actions did they take?
Hope I clarified this now. Al Ameer (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
...the Seljuk ruler of Aleppo... Who? Tutush?
Aq Sunqur al-Hajib. Al Ameer (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
...the family's Arab rival, Khalaf ibn Mula'ib... Historian Michael A. Köhler introduces Khalaf as a Turcoman. (Köhler, Michael A. (2013). Alliances and Treaties between Frankish and Muslim Rulers in the Middle East: Cross-Cultural Diplomacy in the Period of the Crusades. The Muslim World in the Age of Crusades: Studies and Texts. Vol. 1. BRILL. p. 1. ISBN 978-90-04-24857-1.)
I will look into this, but doubtful that he was of Turkic stock. As far I remember when reading about Khalaf ibn Mul'aib al-Kilabi, a very Arabic tribal name, is that he was an unsavory Bedouin tough who ruled with impunity. However, unless Kohler made a mistake, his source, Ibn al-Adim, is generally authoritative for north Syrian affairs. Al Ameer (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
Only found Kohler calling him a Turcoman, which, as I said, seems dubious. He may be confusing them with the Turkmen Ibn Qaraja rulers of Homs. H. A. R. Gibb in his annotations of Ibn al-Qalanisi's chronicle (orig published 1932) calls him an Arab of the Banu Kilab, while Moshe Sharon writes "Khalaf b. Mula'ib al-Kilabi, is the 'brigand chief' of Bedouin origin (as his nisbah testifies) who took Salamiyyah in about 476/1083". Since his ethnicity is not really relevant to this article, I could just replace "Arab rival" with "local rival". Thoughts? Al Ameer (talk) 20:30, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
...Banu Kilab... Consider mentioning that they were Bedouins and linking them to Banu Kilab.
Already linked in a preceding passage, but I clarified that they were Bedouins. Al Ameer (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
More to come. Borsoka (talk) 16:20, 12 November 2020 (UTC) 

@Borsoka: Thank you for taking up this review so quickly! I remember you starting this article. There are a couple of items above which I have not addressed yet, but will get to them shortly. I look forward to the rest of your review. Al Ameer (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for your prompt actions and the above clarifications. Borsoka (talk) 01:59, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
...to an extent... Is this undefined phrase necessary?
...militiamen... Perhaps "militia"? Also link the term.
Link "mercenaries".
...a tentative alliance... What is the difference between a "tentative" alliance and an alliance?
...prince of Antioch... Consider changing to ruler of Antioch. (Tancred's princely title is not obvious. Some say he ruled Antioch as regent for the absent minor prince, Bohemond II.)
Link Tancred to Tancred, Prince of Galilee.
...Isma'ili sect... Is the term "sect" neutral (and necessary)?
Consider linking Easter.
Link Orthodox Christian to Greek Orthodox Christian and delink the latter term in section "Assessment".
...generally well-treated... What does this phrase means? Were they privileged, supported, or were they treated as the Banu Munquidhs' other subjects?
Clarified. Kennedy uses the wording "had been well-treated", but he probably means well-tolerated as the Isma'ilis migrated to the coastal mountain villages of northern Syria such as Shayzar after fleeing persecution in the major Syrian cities such as Damascus and Aleppo.  Al Ameer (talk) 18:43, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
...its residents... Do you refer to the garrison?
I referred to the citadel's "residents" above.
Clarified. Townspeople, not garrison. Apparently the attack was launched by the Ismaili inhabitants themselves rather than with help from Ismailis on the outside, which I also clarifed, per Kennedy. Al Ameer (talk) 18:43, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
...certain measures... Examples?
None were provided by Kennedy, so I left it at "unspecified measures". Alternatively, I could just delete this sentence. Let me know. --Al Ameer (talk) 18:55, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
Link Burid to Burid dynasty and also link Damascus.
Link Shams al-Mulk Isma'il. Consider mentioning that he was Zengi's most powerful Muslim opponent.
...Byzantine-held Edessa... Edessa was the seat of a Crusader state in the 1130s.
What about a red link to Banu al-Daya?
...well-known memoirs... "Well-known" is uncertain. Perhaps his memoirs could be described as an important historical source/an important source of the crusades/...
...before Saladin's conquest of Damascus... Is this necessary? (The next sentence says they moved to Yemen.) If it is necessary, consider clarifying when Saladin seized Damascus.
Do you have information on the family after the death of Jamal al-Din Isma'il? Or could you make a closing statement about the Banu Munquidhs? ("We do not have information on them"/...)
Unfortunately, no. I am not sure if we could add such a closing statement either since I do not have a source to back it and there could be information out there about other descendants outliving Jamal al-Din. --Al Ameer (talk) 18:43, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
Historian Michael A. Köhler refers to a treaty between the Crusaders and Sultan in late 1098: "In addition to a money payment, [Sultan] undertook not to molest the Franks within his lordship and to sell them horses and food. The course of relations with Shayzar was certainly not without problems-the amir had the land cleared of men and animals and threatened the Crusaders with a ban on trading if they did not withdraw further from the suburbs of his fortress." (Köhler, Michael A. (2013). Alliances and Treaties between Frankish and Muslim Rulers in the Middle East: Cross-Cultural Diplomacy in the Period of the Crusades. The Muslim World in the Age of Crusades: Studies and Texts. Vol. 1. BRILL. pp. 41–42. ISBN 978-90-04-24857-1.)
This accord with the newly arrived Crusaders in Ma'arrat al-Nu'man spared Shayzar the Crusaders' devastating raids. The sentence suggests that the previous sentences cover the treaty to which I referred above. However, the 1098 treaty could not be made between Baldwin and Sultan, because Baldwin was far away in Edessa in late 1098. Could you clarify the sequence of treaties?
@Borsoka: This stumped me initially, until I looked into the source I originally used (Husain, p. 192). There was no mention of Baldwin I, I guess an ill-informed assumption here. I believe I have clarified it. I did not need Kohler, but I intend to use him to supplement what is already in the article. Let me know if this all squares out now. Al Ameer (talk) 02:44, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
I guess Timurtash ibn Ilghazi is identical with Ilghazi of Mardin, mentioned in section "Reign of Sultan".
Delink Burid and Damascus.
More to come. Borsoka (talk) 02:55, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

...Banu Munqidh's emirs paid social visits to Iftikhar al-Dawla... Is the adjective "social" necessary?
Based on the accounts of Usama ibn Munqidh, the family were avid hunters and went on expeditions in the wetlands of the Orontes valley west of Shayzar and in the hills south of the city. Perhaps "Based on the accounts of Usama ibn Munqidh we know,..."/"Usama ibn Munqidh's accounts show ..."/...?
...family's emirs... Emirs? Heads of the family?
Who is Sadid al-Mulk? Section "Struggle for Shayzar" introduces him as Ali's son and successor and Nasr's father, but the List of Banu Munqidh emirs assiciates Sadid al-Mulk with Ali and states that Nasr was Ali's son (not grandson).
Link "Kunya" or explain it in a footnote.
Could a family tree be added?
LEAD: After the death of Emir Muhammad ibn Sultan (r. 1154–1157) and his family, the emirate passed to the Zengid emir Nur al-Din, who granted it to the Banu al-Daya family. Consider mentioning that the Emir and his family died in the earthquake.
LEAD: ...most well-known... Best-known?
Where was France (2016) published? (Alternatively, delete the places of publication in other titles.)
ISBN for Zakar (1971)?
Tertiary sources verify about 50% of the main text. I think this is not a problem now, but this could be a problem during a FAC process. Consider adding further references to secondary sources after this process is closed.
Noted. I’ll look into where information from the Encylopedia of Islam could be replaced or elaborated by secondary sources. On a related note, I just stumbled on the translated work of Ibn Khallikan which contains some gems about the Munqidhites. Although this is a primary source, I may add some info from it with attribution. Al Ameer (talk) 03:12, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
End of review. Thank you for this interesting, well-written and thoroughly researched article. The article assisted me in significantly developing my knowledge about Near Eastern politics in the Middle Ages. Borsoka (talk) 02:47, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for such a thorough review. The article has definitely improved, and I too have learned some new information about this period in the process. I will try to address the remaining issues tomorrow or in the following couple of days. I will add a family tree and will attempt a basic map showing the Banu Munqidh's Orontes domains and the surrounding states and local potentates, hopefully by the end of the week. —Al Ameer (talk) 03:12, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
@Borsoka: There is one more item left, about the treaties, which I will try to address today. Added a map as well. Al Ameer (talk) 18:43, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for your edits. Agree, the treaties remained the only pending issue. I guess Michael Kohler is a good source. Borsoka (talk) 01:25, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
Thank your again for this excellent article. All my issues were addressed. Congratulations for your GA! Borsoka (talk) 04:15, 24 November 2020 (UTC)