# Talk:Bayswater, Western Australia

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bayswater, Western Australia/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Whiteguru (talk · contribs) 07:46, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

 
Starts Good Article Review Page. Hopefully we will start the review shortly.  Thank you       --Whiteguru (talk) 07:46, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

 


### Observations
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar):  b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): 
HTML document size: 308 kB
Prose size (including all HTML code): 74 kB
References (including all HTML code): 145 kB
Wiki text: 103 kB
Consider the rule of thumb given in WP:SIZERULE
Consider Balcatta, Booragoon, Canning Vale, Cannington, Forrestfield, Osborne Park, Willetton, These are all inner suburbs of Perth. These pages do not have any similar extensive history for the early settlement of the inner suburbs of Perth.
Compared to the History of (chosen at random) of these suburbs Balga,Bassendean, City Beach, Cottesloe, Freemantle, Guildford, Innaloo, Jindalee, Kewdale, Leederville, Mount Hawthorn, Nedlands, Redcliffe, Scarborough, South Guildford, Thornlie, Welshpool and Wilson, the history section of this article is both over large and over extended. It relies principally on one source, and we have to assume good faith as the source is not accessible. (That is not a complaint.) The only suburb that has any comparable history is Thornlie. Freemantle, the port, has an audaciously short page for a suburb of Perth.
European colonisation has 5 paragraphs and one quote;
Initial development in the 1880's has 6 paragraphs and one quote;
New services in the 1890's has 4 paragraphs;
After Federation has 7 paragraphs
Post World War II has 6 paragraphs
21st century has 2 paragraphs. 
This article may benefit if the sections Initial development, After Federation and Post World War II were truncated to 4 paragraphs each. 
Given the history of floods in the region, the Geography section provides good coverage of drainage issues.
Reference 76 goes to the Albany Electoral District?
Nonetheless, good work on the design and layout of the Polling results for State and Federal seats.
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):  d (copyvio and plagiarism): 
The History section relies on a single source.
Heading "After Federation" does not need to be a link; remove the link and place a hatnote, see also Federation
Reference 33 is a dead link. Use the Wayback Machine
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects):  b (focused): 
In the Governance section, it might be best to link to City of Bayswater's "Elected Members" page. (What to do when the elected councillors change?)
Are there any references available for the two railway proposals vis-a-vis Bayswater as a junction for new lines?
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias: 

It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.: 
Page created 14 November 2006
Prose size (including all HTML code): 74 kB
References (including all HTML code): 145 kB
Prose size (text only): 44 kB (7468 words) "readable prose size"
Page has 191 edits by 67 editors and currently has  status.
90 day page views = 1,838 views with a daily average of 20
131 pages link to this page; there are 199 external links from this page.
examination of page history reveals steady improvement and nil edit warring.
Page is considered stable.
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions): 
Page has 16 images.
File:King William Street from Bayswater Bridge 1.jpg = Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license.
File:Metropolitan Perth.svg = Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.5 Generic license.
File:Ribbon grants of the Bayswater area, Swan River Colony.png =  is in the public domain in the United States because it was published (or registered with the U.S. Copyright Office) before January 1, 1926.
File:Bayswater Estate advertisement in The Daily News.png = is of Australian origin and is now in the public domain because its term of copyright has expired. According to the Australian Copyright Council (ACC), ACC Information Sheet G023v17 (Duration of copyright)
File:McLeish's Store, Bayswater, 1905.jpg = is of Australian origin and is now in the public domain because its term of copyright has expired. According to the Australian Copyright Council (ACC), ACC Information Sheet G023v17 (Duration of copyright)
File:Meltham Heights townsite map.png =  is of Australian origin and is now in the public domain because its term of copyright has expired. According to the Australian Copyright Council (ACC), ACC Information Sheet G023v17 (Duration of copyright)
File:Bayswater Post Office, 1942.jpg =  is of Australian origin and is now in the public domain because its term of copyright has expired. According to the Australian Copyright Council (ACC), ACC Information Sheet G023v17 (Duration of copyright)
File:E37 King William Street shops near Bayswater Subway (October 2020).JPG = Creative Commons CC0 1.0 Universal Public Domain Dedication.
File:Bayswater, Western Australia map.png = Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license.
File:A.P. Hinds Reserve 02.jpg = Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license.
File:Bayswater Russian Orthodox Church 1.jpg = Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license.
File:E37 Bayswater Library from west (October 2020).JPG = Creative Commons CC0 1.0 Universal Public Domain Dedication.
File:E37 War memorial at Ben Wright Park (from south-west).JPG =  Creative Commons CC0 1.0 Universal Public Domain Dedication.
File:Bayswater Primary School 03.jpg = Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license.
File:Hillcrest Primary School administation from Bay View Street 2.jpg = Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license.
File:Meltham railway station from footbridge 2.jpg = Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license
File:May Street Bayswater Bike Boulevard 4.jpg = Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license.
Overall:
A most comprehensive (if not the most comprehensive) history of the origins and development of a suburb of Perth and the genesis of a local government authority battling with floods, inundations and uneven development of housing, industry and education, along with serious erosion on the riverbank. A very well written article.
That said, the history sections are long in the tooth and some truncation has been recommended. Other minor issues may be resolved quickly.
Happy to discuss issues raised. --Whiteguru (talk) 08:24, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 
 On hold

 
I will crack on with the history section soon. I aim to get it down to slightly longer than Hamersley, Western Australia#History (a featured article), as Bayswater has existed for longer than Hamersley.
Reference 76 covers all electoral districts in WA. Scroll down. The 2001 state election doesn't have results on a webpage like the more recent elections.
I have put in a new link for reference 33 that isn't dead. Annoying that that website seems to change its url every year.
For the local government section, I put the year of expiry for each councillor's term.
Added references for the train section. I can't believe I didn't realise that paragraph had no references before.
Steelkamp (talk) 10:05, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

I have now cut down the history section. I've cut down the section on European colonisation considerably instead of the other sections as I decided it had the least important information in it. Each section has had paragraphs trimmed.
Steelkamp (talk) 16:04, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Steelkamp Thank you for your edits. Very pleasing work. It's a good read, this article.  --Whiteguru (talk) 01:02, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 
 Passed

 

I am completely new to Wikipedia.  Unfortunately I tried to replace 2 paragraphs and edit the article. I now understand that was the wrong thing to do and I am sorry.  I now note that each article has a talk page where one can suggest improvements and corrections to the article. I hope I am now in the correct place to do that - Add Topic.  Please advise if I am out of order again.
Regarding the second paragraph under European colonisation, I feel that there is little point to include Peter Broun in a Bayswater history because he lived from 1832 to 1836 in Bassendean and never Bayswater.  The existing article is wrong to claim that he never lived on or improved the land.  He was well known as a good improver at Bassendean. The existing text is also incorrect in saying that William Henry Drake never improved his land.  Drake was the first European improver of land at Bayswater.  Trove newspaper records and Landgate show that between 1835 and 1838 Drake build a brick house and stables with a garden on Swan Location U. That fact is confirmed by the 1841 Survey by Government Surveyor, Chauncy, whose map and field books detail Drake's improvements on what is now the lower end of Slade Street. The Causeway did not open in 1836.  A quick google will show 1842/43.  Thus until that event the Guildford road through present day Bayswater remained unusually a usable public road in a rural area.  It is strange to call the Drummond family "the last colonists" who left the area in 1836.  How so? Surely the Oliver family who migrated in 1838 and lived on Location U as tenants for around 40 years were also colonists? Is colonists being used here to mean original grant recipients? The reference to Frederick Sherwood's house refers to what he built in the Maylands area near Tranby in the 1860s. At about the same time period John Scrivener built his house on Location U near the Olivers home at what is now Bayswater. Perhaps some of these problems stem from an over reliance upon one particular source for citations. That source has no information about the Olivers at Bayswater.  Wikipedia Bassendean Western Australia is short and precise about that City's first colonists, namely Henty and Broun in the 1830s. Wikipedia should acknowledge Drake and Olivers as the first colonists of Bayswater in the late 1830s.  These people are very well documented. I could go on.
Under the heading "Initial Development in the 1880s" it is not correct to claim that Drake died in London in 1884. The date was in fact 1882. The statement that "whether the name (Bayswater) had any connection to Drake is unknown" is itself implausible.  The statement rather misrepresents the source which notes that "it seems almost too much of a co-incidence that the previous owner, William Henry Drake, was resident in Bayswater, London."  Exactly.  The developer of the Drake estate, Joseph Rogers, knew about Drake and commemorated the place of his death. There is more circumstantial evidence about this. Balbaysy (talk) 09:39, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

@Balbaysy: Thanks for your comment, and welcome to Wikipedia. It would help if you could show the sources for the information you have posted here. Currently, the history section is fully sourced, so changing it so that there are parts that are unsourced will not work. The history section is mainly sourced to the book by Catherine May because the book is by far the most comprehensive source on the history of Bayswater. If you provide sources for what you are saying, then we can compare and determine which source is the correct one.
I concede your point about the origin of the word Bayswater, and will reword the article accordingly. I also concede that there may be parts of this article that talk about places beyond the present day boundaries of Bayswater. After all, the book is about the whole city of Bayswater, and the boundaries did not exist back in the 1830s. I don't have the book with me right now so I can't go check myself, but I endeavour to go to the library at some point to check it out.
Thanks, Steelkamp (talk) 09:08, 24 April 2025 (UTC)
Thanks Steelkamp
I would be very happy to show the sources for the information but I find the Wikipedia protocols and technology very difficult. I am very familiar with May's book. That book does not mention Drake's house on Location U or his tenants of 40 years, the Olivers. Trove Australia is the most important of many sources.  The Perth Gazette and West Australian Journal, Classified Advertising, 28 April, 5 and 12 May 1838 (all the same), SMALL FARM, TO BE LET OR SOLD, W H DRAKE. This  has much useful detail about the first house in Bayswater.  The no-name problem calls the place Upper Swan but it is definitely the 1000 acres of Location U.  I can provide much more in due course. Balbaysy (talk) 09:59, 24 April 2025 (UTC)
P.S. - Are you saying that the article is wrong, or the book by Catherine May is wrong? You are going to have a harder time changing things if you are saying the book is wrong, because it comes down to what one source says versus the other, at which point the sources would have to be weighted up against each other to determine which is more likely to be correct. A book written by a professional historian is more likely to win that fight than a primary source newspaper. Steelkamp (talk) 09:48, 24 April 2025 (UTC)
I encourage you to read the online primary source newspaper.  If you do read that I would be interested in what you think.  You may like to have a close look at the P Chauncy Survey of 1841, also online, and comment upon the buildings and garden recorded there on Location U.  I will be having no disagreements with anyone.  I think that May's book is a magnificent scholastic effort and Wikipedia does the very best it can.  I really value your interest. Thank you. Balbaysy (talk) 11:24, 24 April 2025 (UTC)

From very early times of European settlement the Bayswater area in the Swan River Colony had no clear or agreed name.  That is one reason why at the time of the 1885 subdivision of Location U the name of "Bayswater" was readilu  accepted to replace the no-name confusion that had prevailed for about 50 years.  The largely undeveloped bush at last had a name that people could identify as a specific place.  Bayswater had been known at various times as Swan, Upper Swan, Lower Swan, Guildford, North Perth, Peninsula, Peninsula-Guildford Road, between Perth and Guildford, etc. Old records about the Bayswater area prior to 1885 can be hard to identify properly if not impossible.
A lot has been written about the early land regulations in Swan River Colony which were very complex, often changing and not well understood.  I readily admit that I do not fully understand them and would appreciate advice.  To quote Catherine May, "Changes They've Seen", 2nd edition, page 22. "The early forties marked the end of the ten year period in which the ribbon grants were required to be improved in order to gain title."  So, people with original grants were very concerned to show satisfactory improvements as they could theoretically at least lose their land because of insufficient improvement. But, what about land grants that had gained title by purchase?  W H Drake purchased Location U in 1835 for 90 pounds.  I have always assumed that the Colonial Government had no intention to confiscate or change titles gained through private market sale.  After all was not a free market in land what the then UK Government wanted to encourage?  I thought that if a grant had been sold privately the Government would have no interest in improvement levels.  Is this correct?  At the end of page 22 May writes "Title to Location U passed by purchase, the improvements required being listed as 'none'. This indicates that little, if anything, had been done to that grant."  I think that the Government required no improvements because title was already given by purchase.  The level of improvements is not given and irrelevant with none required in that case. Opinions welcomed please. May cites 'none' source as SRO, Acc 36, 109/275, 30 March 1842, which I am looking for. Balbaysy (talk) 06:40, 25 April 2025 (UTC)