# Talk:1984 New York City Subway shooting

@Jerome Frank Disciple There's been some new attention on this case after the Jordan Neely homicide and I think you may want to incorporate these sources into the article: [1], [2], and [3]. On first glance to me, they appear to have a few bits of information not currently in the article. :3 F4U (they/it) 20:15, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Homicide?  Hardly. But you're right.  The cases are similar.  Neely is also a criminal a scumbag and Daniel Penny and Gaetz are both heroes. 2601:603:5382:4DA0:78E4:FD19:B08C:760E (talk) 00:54, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

Hello, my Wikipedia name is ChangerOfPages. I changed this page because the intro seemed inaccurate. It described the targets of the shooting as "young... teenagers" when they were 18 and 19. This seems inaccurate. If 18 & 19 are young teenagers, then what are 13 & 14? That's why I removed the word "young". ChangerOfPage (talk) 10:04, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Source 41 (only a partially accurate Wiki article) is used as a source. The actual court decision People v. Goetz should be used instead (https://www.nycourts.gov/reporter/archives/p_goetz.htm). 2603:7000:4DF0:9340:54E8:AD37:3A8B:4154 (talk) 11:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

That source is referring to the court decision, not the Wiki article. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 14:45, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

(For the sake of this comment, I'm going to describe the 4 young men as "suspects" and Goetz as a "defender." That's for the sake of clarity and the courts of NY agreed with this decision at Goetz trial. Disclosing that now.)
As most know, 18-19 isn't very old at all. I personally think that's still a kid, as it is a silent rule in this country that you're not an adult until you're 21. But my opinion does not reflect the age of majority laws in the United States, as well as most of the world. At the time of the incident, all four of the suspects were over the age of 18. This means they all were young adults. And while the term teenager can occasionally be used to describe a person who is 18 or 19, it's not the norm. As someone who is actually within that range, I get called a "young man" more than anything. But "young adults" is the only real encyclopedic word to describe these people.
Now this isn't the fault of Wikipedia editors not really knowing what age the suspects were, but the early news sources. The suspects were described as "youth" by the media to demonize the defender. After all, who can be so evil to take out their anti-black hatred by committing a mass shooting against black teens? This was the idea the 1980s media painted regarding the defender, but it's intentionally misconstrued. Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral regarding this topic and not use confusing language. "Youth" is a word most commonly associated with minors, not people over the age of 18. We should agree that it's misleading to use that word, even if our sources push for it. - MountainJew6150 (talk) 17:55, 4 August 2025 (UTC)

A mass shooting is a type of attack; Goetz was defending himself from muggers. Robertjhennigan (talk) 21:49, 12 November 2025 (UTC)
Agreed. Wiki defines a mass shooting as "A mass shooting is a violent crime in which ....". Goetz was convicted of NO shooting crime.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by ~2025-33859-27 (talk) 01:09, 17 November 2025 (UTC) 

I've reverted the recent change of this to "self-defense". That is a motive, and does not describe what this actually was.The mass shooting article says: "There is no widely accepted specific definition of the term, and different organizations tracking such incidents use different criteria." However, multiple people were shot in this event, so yes, under some definitions this would be a mass shooting. – Epicgenius (talk) 03:12, 17 November 2025 (UTC)
The [mass shooting] article also says in the first paragraph "the term generally excludes gang violence, shootouts and warfare." Doesn't this suggest self-defense would also be excluded as being described as a mass shooting? ~2025-33859-27 (talk) 17:53, 18 November 2025 (UTC)
Disagree. Just because multiple people are shot doesn't qualify a shooting incident as a 'mass shooting'. I've raised the subject in the TALK section of the Mass Shooting article.  Suggest you weigh in there. I don't think the arguments you have given here will fly. ~2025-33859-27 (talk) 19:15, 18 November 2025 (UTC)