# Talk:2023 Masters (snooker)

Aren't the numbers next to players in the draw their seeding? Dave Gilbert is still technically going to be considered the 16th seed because he replaced Yan directly in the draw, and Yan was 16th in the draw. Unless I'm wrong in some way and there's a source saying he's unseeded. -- CitroenLover (talk) 21:17, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

It's actually the other way round. We shouldn't put "16" in unless we've some proof of it. The WST article says "Gilbert was 17th in the world rankings at the cut-off point for the Cazoo Masters so he is the next player in line." but no mention of him being seeded 16. To me there's a big difference depending on whether the replacement happened before or after the draw. In 2018 Bingham was already suspended at the time of the draw and was removed from the ranking list, so Wenbo was in that list at the time of the draw. However in 2021 Trump and Lisowski were replaced after the draw, Perry replaced Trump who was ranked 3 but we don't say that Perry was ranked 3, we have it blank. If Gilbert had replaced Ryan Day (say) who is ranked 15 would we say Gilbert was the number 15 seed? Or the 4th seed if he replaced Trump? I think not. Nigej (talk) 08:46, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
Anecdotely, I thought only the top 8 were actually seeded. We might know a bit more nearer the time in how broadcasts and brackets treat it and follow suit. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 08:57, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
Of course, we've had that discussion before. The main problem is that WST tends to use "ranking" and "seeding" to mean the same thing, i.e. the player's position in the ranking list. See eg https://wst.tv/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Calendar_2022_2023_v22_full_season_issued_31_08_2022.pdf where it says "SEEDING CUT OFF POINT FOR THE MASTERS" when it really means ranking cutoff (ie the top 16) or see https://wst.tv/race-to-the-masters-who-will-make-it-to-the-palace/ (from Dec 2019) "The top 16 seeds are:" Nigej (talk) 09:39, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
Indeed. Confusing. I'd be happy to leave it blank until we see how it's treated during the event. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:55, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
fair enough. However, seeding is not automatically equivalent to ranking in some situations.
For example, the defending champion of a tournament is always seeded as 1 in the draw, regardless of what his or her official world ranking is (eg someone who is technically World Number 12 in the rankings will automatically be Seed Number 1 if he or she is the defending champion of the tournament).
In the case of the Masters, the World Champion is also Seed Number 2 [if it is a different person to the defending champion and the said World Champion is not already the World Number One]. If both defending champion and current world champion are not World Number One, then Seed 3 becomes whoever the World Number One is, in order of the world rankings.
therefore, in the masters, everyone is seeded 1-16, after taking into account the forced seedings of 1 and 2 in the draw [because 1 and 2 have to be placed in a draw so that they can only meet in the final]. —CitroenLover (talk) 10:58, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
True, the defending champion/world champion are exceptions. I'd also agree that everyone is seeded 1-16 at the time of the draw. The issue though relates to replacements after the draw. Do they inherit the seeding of the player they replace? I'd say no. Nigej (talk) 11:33, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
Hard to say Nigej tbh. We’re probably going to have to wait for the tournament to start before we’ll know if he’s 16th or not. — CitroenLover (talk) 12:27, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
I just find it hard to believe that if Yan had been ranked 12 then we'd have made Gilbert the 12th seed. Nigej (talk) 17:08, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
I guess we'll have to see how they handle this. Zhao Xintong, seeded 9th, has now been suspended. The Gilbert precedent implies that Hossain Vafaei (ranked 18th after the UK Championship) would replace Zhao, but as you note, this would not make Vafaei the 9th seed. HurricaneHiggins (talk) 12:14, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
I've just looked at the 2021 entry as a precedent for the current situation — 2021 Masters (snooker)
In that year, Trump and Lisowski both withdrew after testing positive for Covid and were replaced by Joe Perry and Gary Wilson. However, the entry does not have a seeding for Perry or Wilson — the box is left blank. So the answer to Nigej's question would seem to be that a replacement player does not inherit the seeding of the player they replace. HurricaneHiggins (talk) 22:30, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Should we wait for an official confirmation from WST or WPBSA before listing Vafaei as Zhao's replacement? The BBC has already called it, advertising Selby vs Vafaei in the first round, but saying that it's "barring an appeal" from Zhao. https://www.bbc.com/sport/snooker/64165887 HurricaneHiggins (talk) 22:19, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I think we can add something to the text with that source (although quite what "is set to take" means is anyone's guess). However I'd still be reluctant to add it to the "draw" while https://livescores.worldsnookerdata.com/Sessions/Tournament/14585/cazoo-masters-2023 still says "Zhao Xintong" and the replacement is not confirmed. Nigej (talk) 05:04, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
All change. The official link now says "Hossein Vafaei". Nigej (talk) 09:40, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
Indeed. For future info, we should only change draws when there's an official change in the draw. We also saw this at the World Championship earlier this year with Wenbo. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:28, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
Great! Thank you both! HurricaneHiggins (talk) 10:49, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
Official confirmation: https://wst.tv/vafaei-joins-cazoo-masters-field/ HurricaneHiggins (talk) 12:36, 5 January 2023 (UTC)