# Talk:Armenian Quarter

Could the contributor who tagged this article as non-neutral please explain why he/she did so? Hakob 21:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah really this is bs.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.174.192.171 (talk) 01:52, 2 November 2007 (UTC) 
As far as the first map is concerned, it states as fact the Jewish takeover of the central eastern part of the Armenian Quarter. POV, clearly. ArmindenArminden (talk) 13:01, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

I have removed this concluding sentence of the article:
"The Armenian community is but a smaller example of Israel as whole, of a community's ability to survive and persevere for such long periods."
Two reasons.  One, this is a triple evaluative opinion, expressing praise for Israel, expressing praise for the Armenians in Jerusalem, and comparing them.  This is not an encyclopedic fact. It is a generous opinion, maybe, but it is still an opinion. It also might not be acceptable to all the people being discussed without some modulation.
Second,  the sentence is poorly phrased.  The Armenians are not an "example" of Israel, that's not the intended word. And smaller than what?  "Examples" are not "smaller" than the things they are "examples" of,  exactly. Is "2+2=4" "smaller" than "addition"?  It's just an--example!
Perhaps the contributor of the sentence could find quotations from figures in the community being discussed expressing the sentiments he or she means to document.  That would be more informative, perhaps.

— Inacurate statement
"With the outbreak of World War I the Armenians found themselves cut off from their sources of 
support among the western powers. In 1915, using the excuse that the Armenians were allied with the Russians, the Young Turks ordered all Armenians expelled from Armenia in north eastern Turkey. The Soviets meanwhile marched into Russian Armenia and annexed it as a Soviet Socialist Republic." 
First of all, the paragraph seems to imply that East Armenia was annexed by Soviet Union in 1915, as we all know USSR did not exist at the time. Armenia became a Soviet Republic only in 1922. Anyone care to rewrite?
209.195.110.247 06:17, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The use of this phrase clearly consitutes an attempt to draw political parrallels with modern actions and as such should be reworded.

"Jordanian rule was not as equal and tolerant as modern day historians like to imagine it."
I have the same sympathies regarding Israel's more humane treatment of its religious minorities, but what you're basically saying here is that you've put something in wikipedia that doesn't belong there. It's a tertiary work, remember; our job is precisely to report what "modern day historians" tend to claim. If we think they're wrong, well, wikipedia isn't the place to solve that problem. The whole Jordanian rule section is an unsourced editorial as it stands. I think with a little work it could be made into something respectable that nevertheless doesn't whitewash Jordan's role. Make no mistake, though, it can't stay as it is.205.212.73.163 07:45, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The chapter Jordanian rule 1948–1967 states:  Jordanian rule was not as equal and tolerant as modern day historians like to imagine it. This is pure opinion - without any source given! There should generally be a lot more of notes and sources in the article! 
The picture showing an Eastern Orthodox Man in the Armenian Quarter is questionable as well. What's the value of a - eastern orthodox clergyman in the article about the Armenian quarter where there is non Armenien clergyman?  Besides of that the caption Man in the Armenian Quarter is rather poor. - Eliminate this picture it's of no value in this article! 
Any article about Jerusalem, an apple of discord, absolutely need notes! This is not a solution but a first step. Apocolocynthosis (talk) 22:25, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Armenian church is not Monophysites nor Dyophysites. They have rejected both. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miaphysitism  Miaphysitism (sometimes called henophysitism) is a Christological formula of the Oriental Orthodox Churches and of the various churches adhering to the first three Ecumenical Councils. The Oriental Orthodox Churches include the Armenian Apostolic Church, the Syrian Orthodox Church, the Indian Orthodox Church, the Coptic Orthodox Church (including the British Orthodox Church which is under the Patriarch of Alexandria), the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church and the newly autocephalous Eritrean Orthodox Church. Armen11 (talk) 22:43, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

This is a great article, but there are a couple issues that need to be addressed especially since it's being nominated for GA:

The main issue is the lack of attribution of quotes to their sources. All of the quotes are backed by citations, but they need to be directly attributed to whoever made the statement. Also, some quotations don't need to be quoted at all and could be paraphrased instead.
The following sentence needs a citation: The significant increase in the population in 1690 is attributed to urbanization experienced by the Armenians and other Christians. Thus Armenians came to make up 22.9% of Jerusalem's Christians by 1690, becoming the second largest Christian community.
Both these issues should be easy fixes for whoever has access to the sources. Good luck with the nomination. --Al Ameer (talk) 21:17, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

All fixed. --Երևանցի talk  13:34, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:Armenian Quarter/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: FunkMonk (talk · contribs) 23:01, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
Hi, I'll review this article. FunkMonk (talk) 23:01, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Articles should generally not have separate "galleries", the images there should be incorporated article body or removed.
 Fixed --Երևանցի talk  18:16, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
You don't need citations in the intro, it is just supposed to be a summary of the text in the article body.
Well, citations aren't prohibited from the intro. --Երևանցի talk  18:57, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
No, but they shouldn't be overused there. Three citations for a simple statement is over the top for the intro. FunkMonk (talk) 19:48, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
I think the Landmarks and institutions section should be moved to at least after history.
 Done--Երևանցի talk  18:57, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
"uncovering of Christian holy places in the city." Like which?
Not specified in the source. --Երևանցի talk  13:20, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
"by rejecting dual nature of Christ" The dual nature?
Yes. That's an actual thing. See Hypostatic union for more. The phrase "dual nature" is used there.--Երևանցի talk  18:44, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
I know, I meant there should be "the" in front of dual nature there... "The dual nature of Christ". FunkMonk (talk) 14:29, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
 Fixed--Երևանցի talk  07:53, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
What source is the map at the top based on? I know it is based on another file, but there must be some published map that one is based on or similar to as well.
It seems to be based on a map uploaded to WikiTravel and not a published source.--Երևանցի talk  18:44, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Likewise with this[1] map.
The source is already indicated.--Երևանցի talk  10:44, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Source of this[2] image?
I provided the source at Wikimedia Commons.--Երևանցի talk  10:44, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
"forcing them to leave Jerusalem." and "A seventh-century Armenian chronicler mentioned the existence of seventy Armenian monasteries" So what happened in between? Did some Armenians not leave, or did some return in the meantime?
Presumably they returned after 637. The existence of monasteries doesn't mean that they were active, I presume. I'll have to look into this. --Երևանցի talk  10:44, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
"Jerusalemite historian Mujir al-Din provided a detailed description of pre-Ottoman Jerusalem in 1495. He mentioned Dir el-Arman (Monastery of the Armenians) or Kanisat Mar Ya'qub (St. James Cathedral), which is "situated in the middle of the south part of the nineteenth century-defined Armenian Quarter. The Armenian Quarter (Haret el-Arman of future centuries) was unique among the quarters of Jerusalem in that it was an enclosure which developed along the years around the Armenian Monastery."[32]" Who is quoted here? I'm sure a 1495 historian wouldn't say "nineteenth century-defined"? I think this entire quote could just be paraphrased, especialy because it comes right after another long, differently formatted quote.
Actually the quote it irrelevant. Deleted it for good.--Երևանցի talk  18:44, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
"nineteenth century-defined" Which began when?
What began when? The 19th century? Not relevant anymore. --Երևանցի talk  18:44, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
"This was signified that" Seems was should be removed?
 Done--Երևանցի talk  10:49, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
"Israeli historians Kark and Oren-Nordheim wrote:" When?
 Done--Երևանցի talk  10:49, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
"he significant increase in the population in 1690 is attributed to urbanization experienced" So did the Armenians who moved to Jerusalem come from provincial parts of Palestine, or what is meant by urbanisation?
It's not specified in the source.--Երևանցի talk  18:44, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
"and Latin communities" Catholics? Why not eliminate all ambiguity?
 Done--Երևանցի talk  10:49, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
"of which Armenians (121) comprised less than one-third (31.7%). Jews (127) made up 33.2%, Christians (94) 24.6%" Other Christians.
 Done--Երևանցի talk  10:49, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
"In 1947 around 1,500 Armenians from Palestine repatriated to Soviet Armenia" Why?
We can't say for sure why each of those 1,500 moved to Armenia. The Soviet Armenian government with the permission of the central government of the Soviet Union organized a large scale repatriation of ethnic Armenians. Do you think some background should be provided in this article? --Երևանցի talk  18:44, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Not much more is needed, but could be nice for context. FunkMonk (talk) 14:29, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
 Done--Երևանցի talk  12:56, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
You use three different ways of showing quotes (within other paragraphs, as their own paragraphs, and in boxes), this should be standardised.
 Fixed--Երևանցի talk  17:04, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
Most of the short quotes within other paragraphs could simply be paraphrased, no need to overuse non-free text for no reason.
If you can't think of an immediate solution, it isn't a big deal for GA. Might be brought up by someone else later, though. FunkMonk (talk) 16:57, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
"The Jerusalem Post also wrote" When? Always give dates for such claims.
 Done--Երևանցի talk  10:49, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
The long boxed quote under Issues seems redundant in relation to the adjacent text.
 Fixed--Երևանցի talk  17:04, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
You have put forced pixel sizes in many images, this should be removed from photos, according to the manual of style.
 Fixed--Երևանցի talk  09:27, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
"and "their feeling of loneliness"." Such quotes always need in-text attribution.
 Done--Երևանցի talk  19:37, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
"because it has geographically relatively isolated " Has seems wrong here.
 Fixed--Երևանցի talk  19:37, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Unde Language, you could mention whether they speak Hewbrew or Arabic in addition to Armenian.
Have not come across any such information. I assume few speak Hebrew and Arabic has traditionally dominated.--Երևանցի talk  17:04, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
Some of the footnotes seem redundant in relation to some of the text.
Some of the entries under Landmarks and institutions do not have citations.
You only cover Armenians in the demographics section. But the text would indicate others live there was well (Jews, other Christians), and they should therefore also be covered and numbered.
True. But there is simply no information on non-Armenians living in the quarter. The Jewish population is somewhat covered in the Jewish settlement section. --Երևանցի talk  10:44, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
"Mahmoud Abbas stated:" Present him.
 Done--Երևանցի talk  10:44, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
"geographical division of Old City" Missing the.
 Fixed--Երևանցի talk  12:56, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
"Jewish views" This should maybe rather be called Israeli views.
But Israel doesn't represent all Jews. Does the Rabbie quoted here really speak for Israel or its people? The term "Israel" is used here for the Israeli government. I've added Israel's official position on Jerusalem and renamed the section to "Israeli and Jewish views". --Երևանցի talk  12:56, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
" Located in the southwestern corner of the Old City,[4] it can be accessed through the Zion Gate and Jaffa Gate.[5] It occupies an area of 0.126 km² (126 dunam), which is 14% of the Old City's total. In 2007 it had a population of 2,424 (6.55% of Old City's total). In both criteria, it is comparable to the Jewish Quarter.[6] The Armenian Quarter is separated from the Christian Quarter by David Street (Suq el-Bazaar) and by Habad Street (Suq el-Husur) from the Jewish Quarter.[7]" Much of this info is only in the intro. All of it should also be in the article, as the intro should not have unique info, and is only a summary of the article.
 Done--Երևանցի talk  16:57, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
"It is thus considered the oldest living diaspora community outside the Armenian homeland." Likewise.
 Done--Երևանցի talk  08:50, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
"The patriarchate is the de facto administrator of the quarter and "acts as a mini-welfare state" for the Armenian residents." Likewise.
 Done--Երևանցի talk  16:57, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
The intro should not use any citations not used in the article, and the footnotes should not be placed there, but in the article.
Almost done.--Երևանցի talk  09:27, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
You there, Yerevantsi? FunkMonk (talk) 22:10, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
Yes. I was kind of busy. Will address the issues asap. --Երևանցի talk  10:49, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
FunkMonk As far as I can see, I've addressed most of the issues raised here. Could you please go over the article and tell me if I've missed anything?--Երևանցի talk  17:21, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
I think it looks quite good, so will now pass. FunkMonk (talk) 18:46, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

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Before I open this Pandora's box, I realize any topic related to Israel and the status of Jerusalem and it's non-Israeli residents is going to draw lots of fire.  It's not my intention to purposely cause trouble here, but I do wish to highlight the sources used in parts of this article and (perhaps) a POV issue.

1) The sections "Issues" and "Jewish Settlement" highlight apparent bias toward the Armenian community on the part of Israel and the Israeli government, but the citations are mostly from news sources (The Economist, Reuters, Asbarez,etc).  While I don't wish to simply remove all these citations, I would ask, how helpful it is to cite mostly popular news media in an encyclopedia?  It is easy for the news media to push certain viewpoints in their stories and not present both sides of an issue.
2) A possible solution for #1 is to find and cite official sources from the Israeli government on the status of the Armenian Quarter and it's Christian residents.  However I have no idea where to begin with that.  Are there editors that could help?
3) Related to #1 above, I believe this citation is problematic:
George Hintlian, an Armenian historian from Jerusalem, said in a 2010 interview: "The Israelis want to take over the Armenian Quarter. Every day they see what we have. They want it."[47]
I don't doubt this person actually made this statement.  However I do want to question whether the subjective opinion of one person, in such a sweeping statement, belongs in an encyclopedic article.
So I would like to propose, pending further discussion, that we find editors to add sources other than popular news media, and to research the official policy of the Israeli government on the Armenian Quarter and include it in the article with proper citations.
I would also like to remove the citation I noted above in #3, pending further discussion.
Questions, thoughts, comments from the community?  Foreignshore (talk) 03:12, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

The Economist and Reuters are not just "popular news media". They are highly reputable sources that are widely cited in Wikipedia. Asbarez is an US-based Armenian outlet and is cited here as a source for the Armenian viewpoint. How exactly are they pushing "certain viewpoint", that you imply is anti-Israeli? I have no problem with citing official source, be it Israeli, Palestinian, US or Saudi. But official sources should be cited for official viewpoints only and not be presented as impartial information. If you'd like to add Israeli government sources, go ahead and add them. I did quite a lot of research on this topic and did not find much from them.
What are your doubts based on? Hintlian is a "prominent member of Jerusalem's 2,000-strong Armenian community in Jerusalem"[3] and a former Armenian Patriarchate secretary[4]. He is cited by numerous media outlets. His opinion is presented as his personal opinion. I don't see how that is a problem.--Երևանցի talk  08:54, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
Yerevantsi, thanks for your response here--I see you've done a lot of work on this page as well as on Armenian Apostolic Church.  Here are a few thoughts:
By "popular news media" I was referring to sources that report news and are widely read by the public, as opposed to academic journals (maybe Foreign Affairs is an appropriate example here).  It is true that Reuters and The Economist are reputable sources, and I understand they are often cited on Wikipedia, but I do believe it is easy for their writers and editors to tell only one side of a story.  In this case I was concerned about bias in general, not necessarily anti-Israel bias (that wasn't my intention; perhaps it appeared that way).  This may be a topic for a different discussion--how and when popular news media, if I could use that description again, should be used on Wikipedia.
Regarding the citation itself:  I don't doubt that George Hintlian is a prominent member of Jerusaelem's Armenian community.  Rather, I'm concerned that his quote, which is a subjective opinion, could be read or understood as fact by someone 1) who has little knowledge of the political situation in Israel and 2) has come to Wikipedia to learn and to read an unbiased article about the topic.  Perhaps I'm oversensitive to this, but I also read Wikipedia articles on topics about which I have little or no knowledge.  While no encyclopedia may be completely and perfectly unbiased, I want to know what I'm reading is as unbiased as it can be.
I would prefer to remove the quote, but I sense you don't agree with me simply deleting it.  Might I propose revising it to something like this instead of directly quoting Hintlian:
Since 1967 prominent members of Jerusalem's Armenian community have voiced concerns about the Israeli government's policies and commitment to preserving their community's presence in the Old City. [follow with citation to Azbarez article]
If I were an uninitiated reader I would understand this actually happened, rather than reading Hintlian's quote and thinking, "Israel wants to take over the Armenian Quarter" (which I don't believe to be true).
I appreciate you taking time to read this and I welcome your thoughts.  Foreignshore (talk) 02:47, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
I completely agree with your proposal as it is more elaborate. I actually don't mind removing the quote, as it is a little too POV. --Երևանցի talk  16:44, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Is there a proof that a man smoking hookah is actually an Armenian priest? Asking since the man does not look neither Armenian nor priest. And the source link does not work as well.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zyxel2000 (talk • contribs) 18:43, 5 June 2016 (UTC) 

What are they based on? Legal documents, tradition, or simply tourist maps copied again & again? Why I am asking:

Relevant re. encroachment of Jewish Quarter.
If there is no LEGAL base (a firman, or even older, pre-Ottoman documents?), then it is very hard to see how following entities should be part of the AQ:
Citadel
Northern section with Christ Church and Austrian post office (CIC, Christian Information Centre)
Kishle (police station)
Syriac (Jacobite) mini-quarter around the Church of St Mark.
IF there is a legal base for counting all the SW quadrant of the Old City as part of the AQ: were (some of) the northern entities listed here built on land leased or sold by the Armenians at some point?
Once this is clarified, we should have a map and a text reflecting both the de iure and de facto aspects. What in that SW quadrant is Armenian, where did historically, and do currently, Armenians live or own houses etc. The SE part of the quarter seems to be (entirely?) part of the monastery and enclosed by its walls (is it?); the SW part across from the monastery seems also to be part of the religious and/or public section (seminary, library), including also the large mound of (Herodian and medieval?) ruins known as the Arm. Garden; the NE part, except for the CIC and Christ Church compound, looks entirely residential (do many of the Old City Armenians live there?); the NW part is hardly part of the AQ (Kishle, Citadel).
THIS would be a systematic explanation of the quarter and what I expect from an encyclopedia. But I don't have the resources to firmly know and write this. Who picks up the challenge? I'd be grateful for that. Thanks. ArmindenArminden (talk) 13:29, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

@Yerevantsi: There are two very different, mutually exclusive bits of info in the article regarding this topic: under "Jewish settlement" Israel is blamed for forcibly taking over parts of the AQ after 1967, while under "Ottoman period" it reads: "According to the 1905 Ottoman census in the Old City, the Armenian Quarter had a population of 382, of which Armenians ... less than one-third... Jews ... 33.2%... The Jews, who numbered a little more than the Armenians, inhabited the eastern part of the Armenian Quarter, which in the second half of the nineteenth century, became the western part of the Jewish Quarter."(Quoted source: Arnon, Adar (1992). "The Quarters of Jerusalem in the Ottoman Period", p. 52). I know unifying info about conflict situation is not ideal, but the user/reader is left puzzled - or rather, they only pick up just one of the two messages. Not so great. Who knows more? The two sides should be presented together, to avoid the current situation where one might not read the entire article, and be left with just ONE SIDE of the story! ArmindenArminden (talk) 14:20, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
So? ArmindenArminden (talk) 22:11, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

@Yerevantsi: Hi! Respect for your work, much of this page seems to be your baby. Don't get too upset about me bringing my input, with a fresh look "from the outside".
So, one map says one thing, the next says smth. else. ONE map is no argument for anything, maps/city plans are among the most POV-fraught items I can think of.
Holy sites: NOT every synagogue/church/mosque is a holy site. The Western/Wailing Wall, Tomb of Jesus, Haram ash-Sharif are holy sites. One can argue if "consecrated ground" is holy or not, but common language does not consider every place of worship a holy site. It needs more, like physical relics or the memory of a holy person who has touched it in some way. Hurva is arguably about as holy as any shul from Lower East End, Plonsk or Thessaloniki. For the Jews, I cannot think of any halachically holy place other than the Temple Mount, by extension maybe also the W. Wall; the tombs of patriarchs are widely accepted, but not by all; to the different sects the tombs of founding rabbis might be holy as well, but a) they are holy mainly to their own sect members, and b) there are none inside the city anyhow (not allowed). Similarly with old synagogues used by venerated rabbis such as Maimonides or Nachmanides: NOT unqualified holy sites.
Propaganda media need to be clearly named IN THE TEXT. Some might try to remove them altogether, but I'm all for using them, if properly marked. One cannot quote some guy with a Jewish sounding name, introduced as "Graham Usher, a Palestine-based foreign correspondent of several Western newspapers", who wrote an article for a Beirut(!)-based publication, in a new paragraph, without reminding the perplexed user why Mr. Usher sounds so one-sided. He wasn't writing there for the Economist or NYT, you know. I'd do the exact same thing with a quotation from, say, IsraelNationalNews.com / Arutz 7 or Israel Hayom & their ilk.
You can help me with something. St. T(h)oros Church is puzzling me. Hethum I built it in memory of his son killed in battle by the Mamluks, but Prince T(h)oros was not a saint, so the church must have been dedicated to/named for a Saint T(h)oros. Who would that be? If you can find out, please add him, even as a "red link", to the respective disambiguation page (Thoros, Toros, Theodore?), and please link the name on the St. Toros Church page to that saint. Maybe you can ping me if you have an answer. Thank you! Keep up the good work, ArmindenArminden (talk) 22:11, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

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