# Talk:Augustus Post

Article claims that Post received the "first driving tickets" in New York, citing a March 5, 1905 story in The New York Times.
But the November 11, 1904 issue of The Evening World  claims that someone by the name of Edward R. Thomas was charged with speeding at "Amsterdam avenue and One Hundred and Fifty-third street" on November 10, 1904, contradicting the Post claim. Fabrickator (talk) 00:09, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

The factual error has been resolved by clarifying language. Hollykatharine (talk) 04:44, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
@Hollykatharine: Please demonstrate that you actually have access to a source that supports this claim. Fabrickator Fabrickator (talk) 17:26, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
The cited source regarding driving in Central Park refers to a requirement to otbain a permit; I saw nothing indicating he was cited for his driving in Central Park; the incident for which he was cited (a couple of years later) occurred on 5th avenue.  Please stick to the facts. Fabrickator (talk) 09:36, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
I have included four new citations. One does correct an error noting that Post was going 10 rather than 5 miles per hour when pulled over by a policeman on bicycle. It also supports the statement that he was given a ticket in Central Park. Another also supports that he was given the first ticket in Central Park. That preceded his being given a permit to drive in Central Park, for if he had had the permit he would not have received the ticket. That permit was issued in 1900, per the article cited, four years before the Edward R. Thomas ticket you mentioned previously. Two other citations were also added to strengthen the section. I appreciate your helping ensure every citation is as strong as possible.  Hollykatharine (talk) 22:51, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

@Hollykatharine: Can you please clarify which auto club Post was originally involved in founding along with details as to his role in that organization and when the founding was supposed to have occurred?  If you have sources to verify this, that would be good too.  Thanks.  Fabrickator (talk) 07:51, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

I have added four new citations clarifying Post's journey from member to VP of the Long Island Auto Club (a group that remained in existence, and to which he continued to belong, for several years before being merged into the AAA, as indicated in the citations) to founder of the Auto Club of America, to founder of AAA in 1902. AAA's history page, among other sources, indicates he was their "founder." So does the publication "Political Groups, Parties, and Organizations that Shaped America: An Encyclopedia and Document Collection" by Brian M. Harward, Scott H. Ainsworth, Scott H. Ainsworth Ph.D..  Hollykatharine (talk) 15:27, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
It seems to me that Post's participation in the Long Island Auto Club would not be directly relevant to this question.  I had hoped that your understanding of the situation would provide more insight as to the claim that he was the actual AAA founder.  With regard to the sources that you provided, we have to consider anything about this that was published after 2016 as questionable, even if the source is the organization itself. Fabrickator (talk) 23:42, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
The AAA organization surely has access to records that go back to their founding and would not say Post was their founder if they could not corroborate the fact. I think you are moving beyond the bounds of ensuring strong sourcing and citation if you won't accept the organization's own representation as adequate for determining who their founder was. Your attention to detail and the time you have devoted here are admirable. I encourage you to put your ample skills to good use in adding additional sources where you think they might be needed rather than simply looking for possible deficiencies and assuming the facts are inaccurate, particularly for an article that was evaluated by outside editors and given a GA rating. You found the Edward R. Thomas record so I know you to be a capable researcher when you apply yourself.  Hollykatharine (talk) 00:03, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
With regard to your claim that AAA even had official records as to who the founder officially was, you're just stating pure speculation.  However, I note that you have previously demonstrated your own skill at searching the online versions of newspaper morgues.  Better than this (at least in many cases) are a handful of automotive publications of the era accessible with a full-text search at the Wayback archive.  Now here's the trick: Skip down to the entry field just below the set of "media icons", where the text reads "Internet Archive is a non-profit library".  Enter your text (try using quoted strings for phrases), but check the "search text contents" before clicking on "go".
Honestly, I haven't figured out how to use this really well, but well enough to put in multiple search terms.  Assuming you get a bunch of hits, look through for ones which matched multiple terms and click on one of the publication images, then scroll through the "search inside" area on the left-hand side to find hits which actually matched multiple terms.  Voilà!  We don't need any citations, people can check for themselves whether Augustus Post was actually recognized as the founder of "American Automobile Association" or any of the other automobile clubs.  (As examples, try a search on ("augustus post" "touring committee"), then try ("automobile association" "founder")  Note that it seems to return lots of hits if there aren't any matches on multiple terms. Fabrickator (talk) 08:03, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Tom Marshall's Weekly News (news archive index)
Augustus Post (1873–1952)
Newtown,Connecticut
Jay Leno Climbs Mount Washington
J. Homer Kratz and the Beginning of National Fibre & Insulation Co., 1904
Our Stanleys with Important People (1949–2013)
Fabrickator (talk) 01:16, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Be careful about relying on any claims made in this article (in its "current" state), even if the claims are supported by seemingly reliable sources.  In particular, sources which are from 2016 or later may have been impacted by citogenesis.  Keep in mind that older sources, even though deemed reliable, may also contain inaccuracies, as well as this article is the example that proves the point.  You have been warned!
The article cites this source, which claims that in 1898, Post had purchased "the first horseless carriage in New York."  Yet this appears to be incompatible with various other sources, such as this item from "The Book of Firsts", claiming automobiles were being manufactured in New York City in 1895 and this story published in the August 14, 1897 issue of Electrical World.  Fabrickator (talk) 22:43, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Could they have not purchase what was the first carriage in 1898, the claim makes no mention of when it was built. So it was the first horseless carriage, and was later sold. No idea about the article in general, it's just the wording of the reference that caught my eye. - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 00:06, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
If there is a wording or factual issue, that should be addressed and corrected. That's the nature of editing pages. But for reasons I don't understand Fabrickator repeatedly questions the credibility of this page rather than editing and updating it. This behavior can ultimately prompt citation overkill. It seems to run counter to the collaborative spirit of Wikipedia.  Hollykatharine (talk) 20:08, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Challenging credibility is the cause of citation overkill?  I'll say this: WP rules about "reliable sources" don't always produce the most satisfactory result.  For instance, they may result in just claiming that different sources report conflicting facts. Contemporaneous newspaper reports often (but not always) provide the most credible explanation, but WP insists that there's some kind of hierarchy of credibility, but seems to ultimately demand that all reports from "reliable sources" be acknowledged.  Anyway, here's a source with its own version of the facts:
Motor Travel (a.k.a. The Club Journal), April 1921, page 30, col. 1: While this was presented some 20+ years after the fact, certain details give this account some added credibility, notwithstanding certain details being in apparent conflict with some other sources. "The first automobiles used in New York were built by Mr. A. I. Riker, who put batteries and electric motors on some of B. Altman's delivery wagons in Frank Wood's wagon shop in West Eighteenth Street... .  Mr. Riker also built electric vehicles for himself, Mr. Whitney Lyon and and Mr. W. E. Busby, whose 'horseless' carriages were also taken care of at Wood's shop.  At the time, Mr. Augustus Post and Mr. William Hall owned 'Waverley Electric Vehicles', which were taken care of at Wood's place.  These Waverley electric carriages were the first to be exhibited at the Bicycle Show about 1898."
The precise meaning of first in the last sentence is subject to some interpretation. Fabrickator (talk) 23:18, 21 September 2022 (UTC)