# Talk:66th (2nd East Lancashire) Division

Did you mean Serain?  Hamish59 (talk) 10:11, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Looks like a typo - thanks for spotting it. Andrew Gray (talk) 17:56, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Just realised that I've used {{}} rather than chevrons for various wikilinks and converters and the rest of the article is in <> references. Apologies but I don't know how to convert them.Keith-264 (talk) 13:49, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:66th Division (United Kingdom)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Peacemaker67 (talk · contribs) 01:53, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

A few notes-
I'm fairly sure we've got over 1914-18 a few time before and considered it generally acceptable, but can't immediately find past discussions - [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Reginald Pinney|notes at a previous A-class][. With a couple of exceptions, it's used primarily for organizational details; this is the sort of material that isn't found in the Official History and would normally use a divisional history for. However, there's no divisional history for 66th Division. It might be possible to reconstruct the organizational history from the Official History OOB supplement volumes, and it's what I'd recommend for an FA... but I've never seen those, and AIUI 1914-18 is mostly taken from them in any case.
I think I agree on Nafziger but, again, there's not much else out there for a short-lived Home Service division ;-)
I think multiple iterations of the OOB are needed; the alternative is a very messy list with lots of "(until 4 April)" type comments. 1914-18 (and our brigade) articles do this, and the result is that it's very hard to understand what happened. The first and second could possibly be merged (they're much the same but with some renumbering), but the third and fourth are significantly different to what went before. Would the size issue be helped by collapsing them?. Andrew Gray (talk) 19:13, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Done 6b. Andrew Gray (talk) 19:24, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Quite agree about several OOBs, they take up space but I think that the alternative is far worse. Apropos my recent edits, there isn't much interest among editors in the articles I mostly contribute to, so if you think any of my edits here are presumptuous or should be discussed first, apologies and please let me know.Keith-264 (talk) 19:46, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I saw this the other day which might help with compression (assuming I'm not teaching anyone to suck eggs).Keith-264 (talk) 19:57, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Good idea Keith, I reviewed that one, I think the navbox would be a great idea. It can be collapsed and placed to one side and it is much smaller. Peacemaker67  (crack... thump) 21:52, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
If Andrew can use his Wikimojo to merge the first two as he suggested and the others go in a version of that navbox, it could resolve the conflict between comprehensiveness and brevity and perhaps also be a model for other divisional pages?Keith-264 (talk) 22:02, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure how well it would work with three separate instances, though (and I'm definitely convinced you need at least three - 1917, 1918, 1939 are all quite different). On the other hand, you could move it to the appropriate section rather than lumping them all at the end. I'll have a play around with the sidebar approach versus collapsing the end tables and see what they look like. Andrew Gray (talk) 18:18, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
It occurred that that format would need three several boxes, if you wanted to use it or it would be mile long when open ;O) I'm happy to defer to your wikimojo.Keith-264 (talk) 18:27, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
I would at least collapse the OOBs. It really overpowers the article and makes it a bit "listy". Peacemaker67  (crack... thump) 00:26, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
Curious about semi-colons in the second para of Formation and home service. Are they really necessary?Keith-264 (talk) 10:11, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
  Semicolons: I tend to overuse them so possibly not, but I think it helps to distinguish between the brigades. Breaking them fully into sentences would feel too bitty.
I'd prefer commas because I'm an anglophone monoglot.;O)Keith-264 (talk) 13:00, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
OOBs: tried "individually" collapsing the OOBs but this doesn't work very well; there's some kind of messy table intersection going on. Either we can have four separately collapsible entries with headers, which might look a bit raggedy, or one collapsible entry with the columns all aligned for tidiness - happy to defer on which you think is prettier but have used the latter for now. Sidebar method didn't work as well as I'd hoped. Thoughts?
Looks OK to me.
Bethell: good catch! The Army List & Who's Who both confirm 35 (turned 36 in September '18). I hadn't seen the note about his youthfulness; I'd always remembered Ironside as being youngest, but that may be hinging on promotion to MG rather than divisional command. I'll look into this one a bit more and see if a biography exists, but there do seem to be some remarkable anecdotes out there... Andrew Gray (talk) 10:43, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
Bethell is now in there. I've sadly left out the best quote, by his GSO.1 - "a wonderful fighting soldier, but a terror to the administration of an army". One for a later biography... Andrew Gray (talk) 11:32, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
Gleaned some details from the 1918 OH volumes, Travers appears to have misconstrued the command changes in March, implying a collapse when the OH records the headquarters going forward. I have left the passage in since it's cited and rather than add a long explanation have added the OH version.Keith-264 (talk) 10:34, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
Found a few details about Bethell in the OH and the 25th Div history.Keith-264 (talk) 13:00, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
Addressed suggestions above, don't think I missed any. Keith-264 (talk) 09:43, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Gleanings from later books
Griffith, P. (1996). Battle Tactics of the Western Front: The British Army's Art of Attack 1916–1918. London: Yale. ISBN 0-30006-663-5.
"Major-General Bethell was another notorious pirate, who re-created 66th Division from scratch in the autumn of 1918, stealing guns, ammunition trains and even whole infantry brigades from their officially intended formations, to forge them all into a successful vanguard for Fourth Army's October advances." p. 28
"... (e.g. 66th Division effectively vanished after the March onslaught on Fifth Army but reappeared as a spearhead of Fourth Army, complete with a reconstituted South African brigade, for the last two months of the war)." pp. 218-219
Sheffield, G.; Bourne, J. (2005). Douglas Haig: War Diaries and Letters 1914–1918 (1st ed.). Weidenfeld & Nicholson. ISBN 0-297-84702-3.
"I also saw the three brigadiers, Onslow, 7 Brigade, Bethell 74 Brigade and Pratt 75 Brigade...." "Bethell is a Brevet Major in 7th Hussars having gone from the Indian infantry (Gurkhas) to that corps." p. 247
"Brigadier-General (later Major-General Sir) (Hugh) Keppel Bethell ('Beetle') (1882-1947), GOC 74 Brigade, 1916-18. He took over the shattered 66th Division in March 1918 and led it for the rest of the war; he was - at thirty-five - the youngest British divisional commander of both world wars." p. 247, fn 4. Keith-264 (talk) 22:32, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Travers, T. (1987). The Killing Ground: The British Army, the Western Front & the Emergence of Modern War 1900–1918 (Pen & Sword 2003 ed.). London: Allen & Unwin. ISBN 0-85052-964-6.
"... by 26 March, 66 division, commanded by Gough's Chief of Staff in 1917, Neill Malcolm, simply ceased to function as a unit." "By 27 March 66 Division HQ had disappeared and the enemy was through the gap between the division and its neighbour." p. 233.
I fear that this exhausts my sources less than a century old. Did anyone ever find the HQ? Keith-264 (talk) 09:08, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, they would be good additions, no doubt. Peacemaker67  (crack... thump) 22:07, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
FWIW, Who's Who in World War I by Bourne has more bio info on Bethell. You'll need to get a hold of someone with Questia access. Cheers, Peacemaker67  (crack... thump) 22:33, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Bloody Red Tabs: General Officer Casualties of the Great War 1914-1918 by Davies and Maddocks mentions the CRA 66th Division (Brigadier-General Arthur Lowe) being killed in November 1917. IMO, death of a one-star (even in WWI) is worth mentioning. Peacemaker67  (crack... thump) 22:53, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Now added - believe it or not, he wasn't the first; commander of 198 Brigade was killed by shellfire shortly after they arrived. Unfortunately I got BRT from a Google ebook so no pagenumbers. Andrew Gray (talk) 21:50, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
[1] the PhD original of British Generalship on the Western Front 1914-1918: Defeat into Victory (Military History and Policy) 2006 by Simon Robbins has
Bethell, Major-General Sir (Hugh) Keppel "Beetle" (1882-
1947)
Charterhouse and R.M.A. Entered Royal Artillery, 1901;
p.s.c.; transferred to 9th Gurkha Rifles, 1905, and 7th
Hussars, 1914; Staff Captain, Meerut Cavalry Brigade, 1914-
15; Brigade-Major, 8th Cavalry Brigade, 1915; 0_C. 1/
Northamptonshire Regiment, 1915-16; G.0.C. 74th Brigade,
1916-18; D.S.0., 1917; G.0.C. 66th Division, 1918-19;
C.M.G., 1918; C.B., 1919; G.0.C. Presidency and Assam
District, 1930-34; retired, 1935. A headstrong character
and at 36 the youngest British Divisional Commander on the
Western Front. His father also served during the war! (p. 383) Keith-264 (talk) 13:13, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

22 Mar
Watts' XIX Corps, strengthened by 1st Cavalry Division, faced the renewed attacks of Marwitz's left wing, starting with a three-hour bombardment. The British 66th Division was driven fighting from its Battle Zone; seven of its detachments broke out of encirclement. Six tanks and dismounted hussars counter-attacked at noon, temporarily easing the pressure, but at 12.45 p.m. Watts ordered his two original divisions to retreat behind 50th Division, now frantically digging in along eight miles of the Rear Zone Green Line. p. 45
30 Mar
North of the Luce 66th Division was helped by three 39th Division counter-attacks but Demuin eventually fell. Watts sent in 12th Lancers who retook a wood that became Lancer Wood. p. 76

This is the extract from Bourne's Who's Who in WWI: pp. 24–25

Bethell, (Hugh) Keppel
(1882-1947) British military commander, who assumed command of the shattered 66th (2/East Lancashire) Division in March 1918 at the age of 35, making him the youngest British divisional commander of both world wars. Bethell, universally known as 'The Beetle', began the war as a captain in the 7th Hussars, but he had also served in the Royal Artillery and Indian army, an indication of his restless character that abhorred inaction. Neither superiors nor subordinates were exempt from his towering rages and impossible, often contradictory, demands. His career on the Western Front as staff captain, brigade major, infantry battalion, brigade and divisional commander was marked by complete contempt for all rules, regulations and procedures. One of his staff officers, Walter Guinness, described him as 'the most insubordinate person that I have ever come across'. He was notorious for poaching officers and stealing equipment from other units. In March 1918 he sought to reinforce the firepower of his new command by commandeering all the weapons from the British army's Machine-Gun School at Camiers, reassuring his (totally unauthorised) staff that he would soon square things with his friend 'Duggie'. (In fact, Field-Marshal HAIG was not amused; 66th Division was pulled out of the line and sent to train American drafts.) In the 'Hundred Days', however, Bethell got his chance. His division, supported by two squadrons of the Royal Air Force, a brigade of cavalry and other units, operated as the all-arms spearhead of the Fourth Army in the advance to the Rhine.
Peacemaker67  (crack... thump) 01:28, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Quick update (as of 27/1) - I've now updated most of the article except the Spring Offensive, and I'm working through that - I think I've more or less got my head around what happened but I'm still assembling it all. I'll go through after that's done and check all the smaller points have been followed up. Apologies for taking a bit longer than hoped! Andrew Gray (talk) 23:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
No worries, I like the way you're approaching it. Happy to give you some more time. Regards, Peacemaker67  (crack... thump) 23:17, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
1300 words was more than I intended for the Spring Offensive, but at least it's detailed! Unfortunately they seem to vanish from the sources around 28 March, but it's clear they hung around Amiens until basically falling apart. Content now all in place, I think, and will give it a close copyedit tomorrow.
The 66th remnants were withdrawn 30/31 March, added a couple of items of local colour; Little was a Lieut-Colonel so I assume a battalion commander.Keith-264 (talk) 10:50, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

The following references do not correspond to any of the books cited to Edmonds. Are they typos, or are books missing? 
Edmonds, 1935 p. 504
Edmonds, 1945, pp. 552–553, 561
Likewise, the following do not have corresponding books:
Carpenter
Griffith
Is Gibson, the same as Gibbon?
Kincaid-Smith: looking up the isbn, I was able to [http://www.amazon.com/25Th-Division-France-Flanders-Kincaid-Smith/dp/1843421232/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1460488206&sr=1-1&keywords=isbn+1843421232 find the following]. To confirm, is this the same version? As it states the publication date as 2009 rather than 2010.

Kincaid-Smith, M. (2001) [1918]. The 25th Division in France and Flanders (Naval & Military Press ed.). London: Harrison and Sons. ISBN 1-84342-123-2.{{cite book}}:  CS1 maint: ref duplicates default (link)
Regards, EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 19:46, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Sorted out a few discrepancies. History of the Great War has the biblio details of the OH series. RegardsKeith-264 (talk) 20:53, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
Where there are two Edmonds 1995 citations, one of low numbers and the other of high, I think one is OH 1918 I and the other OH 1918 II. I added 1918 I as harvid|1995a| but I'm not sure which other cites are from it. Keith-264 (talk) 08:36, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

@EnigmaMcmxc:  I've checked over the ORBAT against Becke volume 2 and there are some discrepancies depending on the date.
1914 - Becke's earliest orbat is November 1915 so some supposition that troops listed in 1915 were there from the start

Only mounted troops as 66th Divisional Cyclist Company;  2/1 Bedfordshire Yeomanry are probably a later addition.
2/3 East Lancs Field Company are post November 1915 addition.
1917 - this really depends on the date.  Becke is June and the differences from the article are:

RFA CCCXXXII (2/III East Lancashire) Brigade broken up June 1917
RE Add 430 (2/I East Lancashire) Field Company
RAVC Add 1/1 East Lancs Mobile Veterinary Section
1918

RA No Trench Mortar batteries - both disbanded April 1918 and not reconstituted.
RE Add 430 (2/I East Lancashire) Field Company
MGC - full title was 100th (Warwickshire & South Nottinghamshire Yeomanry) Battalion MGC
RAVC Add 1/1 East Lancs Mobile Veterinary Section
Ref: Becke, A.F. (1937). History of the Great War: Order of Battle of Divisions. Vol. Part 2b: The 2nd-line Territorial Force Divisions (57th-69th). HMSO. pp. 70–71.
GOC

6 Nov 14 Br-Gen C E Beckett
14 Nov 15 Maj-Gen C J Blomfield
10 Feb 16 Col C S Gordon Steward (acting)
1 Mar 16 Maj-Gen C J Blomfield
12 Feb 17 Maj-Gen Honorable H A Lawrence
22 Dec 17 Maj-Gen N Malcolm (wounded 29 Mar 18)
29 Mar 18 Br-Gen A J Hunter (acting)
31 Mar 18 Maj-Gen H K Bethell
Ref: Becke, A.F. (1937). History of the Great War: Order of Battle of Divisions. Vol. Part 2b: The 2nd-line Territorial Force Divisions (57th-69th). HMSO. p. 67.
Hope this helps. Nthep (talk) 15:03, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

@Nthep:, thank you very much. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, I have not had much time the last few days. If you able, would you be able to make the edits to the article? If not, I will be able to in a few days if you will be able to do a little quality control afterwards to ensure there was no mistakes? Kind regards, EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 17:52, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
Updated as asked. Nthep (talk) 18:43, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay, thank you very much for your additions to the article in getting the OOB and GOCs up to scratch! Kind regards, EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:55, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Following the disbandment of the 66th Division, its constituent units were dispersed. The 197th Brigade, with the 257th Field Company RE and 110th (Manchester) Field Regiment RA was assigned to the 59th (Staffordshire) Infantry Division and reformed it as a standard infantry division of three brigades, having been organised as a motorised division. With the 59th Division, the 197th Brigade fought in the Battle of Normandy from July–August 1944 before its battalions were disbanded in August, due to a severe shortage of infantry, to make up combat losses in other divisions. The brigade headquarters was then assigned a number of support units for battlefield clearance duties.
The 198th Brigade was assigned to the 1st London Infantry Division and in December 1940 was then assigned to the 54th (East Anglian) Infantry Division. After the 54th Division was disbanded at the end of 1943, it became an administrative headquarters for line of communications units. The 8th (Irish) Battalion, King's Regiment (Liverpool) and 6th Battalion, Border Regiment were retrained as Beach groups and landed in Normandy on D-Day, 6 June 1944. The 7th Battalion, Border Regiment was later transferred to the 222nd Brigade and, in April 1944, redesignated the 5th Battalion. The 199th Brigade with 109th Field Regiment, RA, was assigned to 55th (West Lancashire) Infantry Division, reforming it as a standard infantry division, and renumbered the 166th Infantry Brigade in August 1944.

The 111th Field Regiment, RA was assigned to the 42nd (East Lancashire) Infantry Division, then to the 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division and in 1942 was sent to the Middle East, where it served in the British Eighth Army in Africa, Tunisia, Sicily and Italy. In 1944–45, it was detached to Land Forces Adriatic and operated from Vis on the Croatian coast. The 256th Field Company, Royal Engineers later served with the 78th Battleaxe Infantry Division in Africa and Italy.
I have moved this section here to the talkpage. The information on the brigades being moved around has already been edited into the article, and the information on the RA and RE units will follow. However, the rest appears to be more suited to the various regiment, brigade, and division articles than here. This article should focus on the division, IMO.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 15:29, 3 May 2016 (UTC)