# Talk:Bahram IV

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bahram IV/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Ardenter (talk · contribs) 06:11, 12 December 2020 (UTC)


### Overall
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar):  b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): 

It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):  d (copyvio and plagiarism): 

It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects):  b (focused): 

It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias: 

It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.: 

It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions): 

Overall:
Pass/Fail: 


### Lede
#### Sourcing
First thing I see is a lack of sources in the lede. Statements there need to be sourced. Also, perhaps, add some sources in the infobox? I recommend using ones from the rest of the article and filling in the gaps with new sources.

The lede generally doesn't need sources per MOS:LEAD. None of my other GA articles have citations in the lede either (well, with the exception of one, and that's because I cited a historian word for word). It simply repeats what it is mentioned in the body of the article, which is already sourced. Same goes for infobox. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:00, 12 December 2020 (UTC)


#### Balance
I feel the lede is a bit unbalanced. The first paragraph is four sentences long while the second is one sentence long. I'd recommend splitting it so it goes:
"Bahram IV (also spelled Wahram IV or Warahran IV; Middle Persian: 𐭥𐭫𐭧𐭫𐭠𐭭‎), was the Sasanian King of Kings (shahanshah) of Iran from 388 to 399. He was the son and successor of Shapur III (r. 383–388).
His reign was largely uneventful. In Armenia, he deposed his insubordinate vassal Khosrov IV and installed the latters brother Vramshapuh on the Armenian throne. In 395, the Huns invaded the countryside around the Euphrates and the Tigris, but were repelled.
Seemingly disliked by the nobility and clergy, Bahram IV was killed by his own troops. He was succeeded by his brother Yazdegerd I."

Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:18, 13 December 2020 (UTC)


#### Parentage
As seen in the "Early life" section, his father is disputed. I'd recommend adding a note to the lede and infobox noting this.

I don't think it's disputed. From what I am aware, modern scholarship (Daryaee, Bonner, Klíma) seem to agree that Bahram IV was the son of Shapur III. Majority of medieval sources state the same. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:07, 12 December 2020 (UTC)


#### Conclusion
I feel this is one of the weakest parts of the article and it must be improved. Sources, notes, and minor rewrites are needed.


### Name
#### Sources
The way sources are cited here is a bit off. I think the first [1] should be removed and the final sentence re-written to cut down on the number of times [1] is cited. Maybe:
"His theophoric name "Bahram" is the New Persian form of the Middle Persian Warahrān (also spelled Wahrām), which is derived from the Old Iranian Vṛθragna. The Avestan equivalent was Verethragna, the name of the old Iranian god of victory, whilst the Parthian version was Warθagn. The name is transliterated in Armenian as Vahagn/Vrām,[1] whilst the Greek transliteration is Baranes.[2]"

Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:21, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
Heya @Ardenter:, anything else? --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:30, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Very sorry, I was busy and forgot about this. I'll get on it right away.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ardenter (talk • contribs) 03:51, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
I'm going to be taking a semi-wikibreak due to medical reasons. I'll try to get this finished by Friday or so. @HistoryofIran:
Sure thing. Hope you get well. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:43, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
I noticed that there hasn't been any movement on this nomination in over a month. Are you still able to complete this, Ardenter, or is a new reviewer needed? Thanks! Extraordinary Writ (talk) 20:52, 3 February 2021 (UTC)


### Second reviewer
Will take over this review. From a first impression the lead is deficient. It's a short article, but there should still be a fuller summary. All the sections in the article should be referenced in the lead in some way. I also don't understand the "see note" remarks in the shortrefs. CMD (talk) 10:46, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Broadness
Taking Bodashtart and Tiridates I of Armenia as potential reference points, this article lacks a Historical context/Background section, which seems like it would be useful here. Other sections those articles have that might be relevant are Historical sources, Genealogy, and Legacy.

Writing
Why is the lead so certain about his father if the text hedges? "He was the son" could be changed to "He was likely the son", reflecting the wording of the body.
If the death dates for al-Tabari and Yaqut are given, the death date for Hamza al-Isfahani should be given as well, even if approximate.
Why is one seal described in the Early life section rather than also being described in the Seal section?
[1] Fixed :d. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:52, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
"Armenia had been divided during the reign of Shapur III according to the terms of a peace treaty. But this arrangement barely survived the reign of Bahram IV. In 389, Khosrov IV, the vassal king of Armenia under Sasanian suzerainty grew wary of his subordination to Iran and entered into a treaty with the Roman emperor Theodosius I, who made him the king of a united Armenia in return for his allegiance." The first sentence should establish who the parties of the peace treaty were. The second seems out of place within the section.
The text should be more careful to distinguish between Armenia as a whole and Sasanian Armenia.
"This enraged Bahram IV and made him have Khosrov imprisoned in the Castle of Oblivion." Is there a need to state "enraged"? It seems likely from context. Is there a reason for the convoluted wording of "made him have Khosrov imprisoned" rather than just using "imprisoned Khosrov"?
I guess not, fixed x). --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:11, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
"attempts to restrict their self-determination usually resulted in their murder". Needs rewording, pronouns are unclear.
The text goes into some detail about the Parthian nobles, but doesn't clearly establish the link with the murder. If Bahram IV was trying to restrict their autonomy, it would be useful to spell that out more explicitly.
"The 12th-century historian..." sentence should have some indication that it is not part of the generally positive sources.
How can "Bahram IV was the first Sasanian monarch to combine two religious components on his crown" if "Bahram IV is portrayed wearing the same crown as his predecessors"?
"The modern historian Michael Bonner has suggested that the construction of these type of large scale fortifications were initiated from 363 under Shapur II.[29]" What is the relevance to this article?
Not much, I guess. Removed. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:38, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
Sourcing
Where are the medieval death dates sourced from?
You mean the death date of al-Tabari, etc? They're not, I simply took it from their article. Imho it is unnecessary to add citations for that. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:25, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
There are some disagreements between sources, and I can't see a reason some were preferred.

The History of al-Tabari Vol. 5 seems to think Sabur II was the father. Why is the Encyclopaedia Iranica assertion preferred?
Because other primary sources along with a modern source disputes this. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:07, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
The Brunner 1983 source seems unsure who founded Shiragan.
"Armenia had been divided during the reign of Shapur III according to the terms of a peace treaty. But this arrangement barely survived the reign of Bahram IV." The source used for this says "Bahrām negotiated with emperor Theodosius I over Armenia in 389, and they divided that land between their empires."
The page number provided in Frye 1983, p. 13. seems quite wrong. It should be 143, and it refers to "arabic sources", which does not seem to be the same as "medieval sources".
All images properly licenced, and the article is stable and neutral. The items raised above are concerning in parts but might be solveable in a short time frame. I'll have to take another look at the sources later, but I'm happy to put this review as on hold. CMD (talk) 17:47, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

I've had another look and found more points of concern regarding source interpretation I've added above. I've also noticed a few areas where the paraphrasing is on the border of what I would consider far enough. One instance I'd look past, but there were quite a few throughout, so this could use further copyediting just to reword it. CMD (talk) 16:07, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
@Chipmunkdavis: I see. I think I've fixed the listed issues, thoughts? Also, do you want me to request a copy-edit at Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests? --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:56, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
Best not to bother the guild, your edits fixed quite a bit and I've made some additional changes myself. Let me know what you think.
I've just noticed Frye 1983 says Yazdegerd was Bahram's son, is this an outdated view or another bit of unknown history?
"After the regularization of mint signatures, the eastern province of Abarshahr became the highest mint producer (19%) in the Iranian realm", where is this in the source? Is it also meant to be page 164?
On birth/death/reign dates for ancient historians/rulers, do you know if there is some consensus to have these unsourced on articles? CMD (talk) 12:25, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
This an error on part of Frye - majority of sources refer him to as a "son of Shapur." This is also mentioned in Iranica; A few sources (Nöldeke, p. 73 n. 1) erroneously called him a son of Bahram IV.
Both - fixed now. I've also adjusted the info a bit to match the source more. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:21, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Noted on Frye. On coin mintage, would you please copy here the part of the source which supports "throughout Sasanian history", as I missed it. Aside from those, the only outstanding points are my request regarding the historian dates, and my opening point on a need to expand the lead. CMD (talk) 16:11, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
"As has been seen above, Khurasan was at its most productive (after the introduction of mint signatures) before and after the turn of the fifth century, under Wahram IV (388–399), Yazdgird I (399– 421) and Wahram V Gor (421–439) – when Sasanian forces were pushing out into Central Asia and into the Indus basin."
"Likewise, the large share of the output of drachms taken by Khurasan issues under Wahram IV and Yazdgird I (19% and 15% respectively, declining thereafter to 8% under Wahram V Gor and 1% under Yazdgird II and Peroz)"
As for the historian dates, I've personally never seen citations being used for that in GA articles, including my own. Also expanded the lead.
--HistoryofIran (talk) 18:54, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Fair enough. Clearly not original research. I've added a citation to the only note. Will pass this article now following your adjustments, it's an interesting read. CMD (talk) 08:50, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

@M.samei: The "Seal" section is about a seal of Bahram IV, which we are fortunate to have an image of. But despite this, you have tried to push it out of the section with a random coin of Bahram IV with no edit summary? Can you please explain? HistoryofIran (talk) 11:28, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

In the Middle Persian language, the title of the Sassanian monarch was “Shahan shah i Eran ud Aneran”. The word “Eran” (from which the modern name “Iran” deprives from) means “Iranians” in Middle Persian and “Aneran” means “non-Iranians” in Middle Persian.
Iran (word)
Aneran
So yeah, “King of Kings of Iranians and non-Iranians” is a far better and more accurate translation than “King of Kings of Iran and non-Iran”. Ironzombie39 (talk) 22:05, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you have any WP:RS about this? HistoryofIran (talk) 22:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Yup, here's some sources
- https://iranicaonline.org/articles/eran-eransah
- https://iranicaonline.org/articles/aneran Ironzombie39 (talk) 22:46, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Thanks. The first link supports that, but the second link does not ("non-Iran").
Daryaee, Touraj (2008). Sasanian Persia: The Rise and Fall of an Empire. I.B. Tauris. pp. 1–240. ISBN 978-0857716668. uses "Iran and an-Iran", eg on page 1.
Canepa, Matthew P. (2009). The Two Eyes of the Earth: Art and Ritual of Kingship Between Rome and Sasanian Iran. University of California Press. ISBN 978-0520257276. uses "King of Kings of Iran and Non-Iran" [2]
I'll look into my books tomorrow, it's been some time. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
Well, my books weren't that helpful, I had expected more. Some ebook searching shows both variants being used by expert sources. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
"Eran" still means "Iranians" in Middle Persian, and logically the same with "Aneran" meaning "non-Iranians". Ironzombie39 (talk) 21:44, 3 February 2025 (UTC)
Please remember that we still follow what WP:RS says. If anything, I think the description should be "King of Kings of Iran and Aniran". That way we also utilize the relevant but barely linked Aniran article. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:55, 3 February 2025 (UTC)
According to Wiktionary, they translate as "Iranians" and "non-Iranians". It says that "Ērān" (𐭠𐭩𐭥𐭠𐭭) in Middle Persian is the plural form of "Ēr" (𐭠𐭩𐭫) meaning "Iranian" and "Anērān" is just "Ērān", but with "⁠an-" (𐭠𐭭) literally meaning "non" added as a prefix.
Wiktionary Article for "Eran"
- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%F0%90%AD%A0%F0%90%AD%A9%F0%90%AD%A5%F0%90%AD%A0%F0%90%AD%AD#Middle_Persian
Wiktionary Article for "Aneran"
- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%F0%90%AD%A0%F0%90%AD%AD%F0%90%AD%A9%F0%90%AD%A5%F0%90%AD%A0%F0%90%AD%AD#Middle_Persian Ironzombie39 (talk) 00:01, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
Again, please stick to what WP:RS says. You did not answer my suggestion, which I guess means you don't support it. HistoryofIran (talk) 09:50, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
They use reliable sources for their claims, I’m pretty sure they do fit WP:RA. Can you please explain to me how they don’t? Ironzombie39 (talk) 13:11, 4 February 2025 (UTC)
Then please cite the sources themselves. Have you looked into the sources? The two Iranica sources are already mentioned here. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:35, 4 February 2025 (UTC)