# Talk:Battle of the Pelennor Fields

The image depicting  ""... the great aurochs hunting horn of Sigismund III Vasa" should be removed. its irrelevant to the article and there is no connection, not even a source that tolkien had this horn in mind. Probably just polish trolls again, but maybe someone accidentally placed it there. So unless someone sources this and delivers some proof of relevance ill remove the image.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8108:9C0:1B5D:E581:9CC7:C2D8:B1C4 (talk) 20:25, 17 April 2021 (UTC) 

The image is there to illustrate the "great horns of the North, wildly blowing". The aurochs was a source of such large horns, and the illustrated example shows that exactly this type of animal horn was indeed carried and used as an instrument. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

@Chiswick Chap: the number of 150,000 was introduced with no sources in the first place. --GrandEscogriffe (talk) 13:01, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I've repeated the ref for you though we usually don't do this in the infobox. It's sourced in the article text ... you mean the IP tweaked the number, misusing the source? If that's the case then of course we must change the numbers back. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:03, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
Yes, this is what I mean and what I did. I should have said so in edit summary, sorry.
Disclaimer: this is apparent from the diff above but I wish someone who had access to Foster 1971 could check. Given what is written in the novel a total invading force of 30,000 is unlikely since there are are three times as many Southrons as Rohirrim (so 18,000) even before they receive reinforcements, and it is not implied that Southrons are a majority among the invaders. 30,000 fighters from Minas Morgul along with more invaders from other places is more plausible. This is what I guess might be in Foster 1971. --GrandEscogriffe (talk) 13:20, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
It's a very old source and much has happened since. The IP was likely thinking of Jackson's version, where Bogstad & Kaveny (Picturing Tolkien, 2011, a book I do have on my shelf) says 200,000 orcs for the film's battle on page 157 ... Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:31, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

This very important part of the article is unclear and unorganized. It does not explain or correctly recount the events. Minas Tirith was besieged for about 2 days before Rohan arrived. Rohan did not arrive "the next day" after "companies from outlying provinces of Gondor" arrived. I tried to edit this by using the dates in the "Tale of Years" but apparently we cannot use these fictional dates to describe the events, so I have put in a tag -- "disambiguation needed" -- and I look for clarification and improvement. Wastrel Way (talk) Eric

Well, we certainly need to be clear and accurate; but actually the 'Participants' section that you've tagged doesn't need and shouldn't have an account of the battle at all, so I've cut out the mentions of battle events there. Probably that resolves the matter, but I'm happy to discuss and amend further.
It may be worth stating clearly here that the 'Fiction' section is already quite long; the purpose of the article (any article on any book, actually) is not to recapitulate the book (as might be appropriate for a fan-site, but not for a global encyclopedia), no matter how exciting, but to describe its reception by scholars and others, and its impact and legacy. The 'Fiction' section is provided to give just enough detail for readers unfamiliar with the book to understand the analysis that follow.
You are right that no Middle-earth articles use dates in their text. It might be appropriate to add a boxed timeline ("Day 1: morning", etc) as a summary of events within the siege and the battle proper to accompany the text; I'll explore it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:30, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
I like that. Yes, the Participants section should be only that. And I think the timeline is a good idea, and it should include the build-up to the battle; such things as the reinforcements coming to Gondor from the south, the Witch-King and his army leaving Minas Morgul, the muster of Rohan, etc. Tolkien has "recorded" it but the events take place over two books. Wastrel Way (talk) 15:58, 13 December 2021 (UTC) Eric
Oh good. I think you'll see that it does all that. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:21, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

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