# Talk:9 January 1917 German Crown Council meeting

@Dumelow:, do your sources explain what the German Crown Council was? There is an article at fr:Conseil de la couronne (Empire allemand) and it is mentioned at de:Bismarcksche Reichsverfassung#Kronrat. TSventon (talk) 13:42, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi TSventon, sorry, not really beyond that it was an advisory council convened by the Kaiser (it is presumably of similar nature to the others listed at Crown Council).  The German Crown Council comes up a few times in WWI histories I've read.  There's discussion of some towards the end of the war in Herwig, Holger H. (1983). "Tunes of Glory at the Twilight Stage: The Bad Homburg Crown Council and the Evolution of German Statecraft, 1917/1918". German Studies Review. 6 (3): 475–494. doi:10.2307/1429756. ISSN 0149-7952. and there's widespread coverage in contemporary newspapers of a July 1917 Crown Council that defined Germany's war aims - Dumelow (talk) 15:32, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
Thank you @Dumelow:, I think it would be useful to add a couple of sentences similar to the content of the fr article on the German Crown Council to the article, but only if sources could be found. TSventon (talk) 09:54, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Thanks TSventon.  I've done a but more digging and found some sources to add as background, also added some more details of the meeting from a new source - Dumelow (talk) 12:03, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Thank you @Dumelow:, that was helpful. TSventon (talk) 10:02, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

The article states "The policy increased the quantity of shipping sunk by U-boats to 500,000 tons in February 1916, 600,000 tons in March and 870,000 tons in April." There was no unrestricted submarine warfare in 1916. There was only the intensified one. Germany restarted the policy only in January 1917. Did the writer mean 1917? אוהד בר-און (talk) 12:46, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Thankyou אוהד בר-און, I've checked the source and it was meant to be 1917.  Now changed - Dumelow (talk) 07:18, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:9 January 1917 German Crown Council meeting/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Nominator: Dumelow (talk · contribs) 11:05, 2 October 2025 (UTC)
Reviewer: Jon698 (talk · contribs) 05:02, 17 October 2025 (UTC)
This article is on the shorter end, but covers a very interesting piece of WW1. The lower reference count of 21, compared to other articles I have reviewed, will also be easy to review. Jon698 (talk) 05:02, 17 October 2025 (UTC)

@Dumelow: I have made my first comments below. Jon698 (talk) 04:01, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
I have no more prose comments. Will do source review soon.
Thanks for starting this review, much appreciated.  I have responded below - Dumelow (talk) 07:36, 18 October 2025 (UTC)


### Comments
Could you change the usage of "German Emperor" to be "Kaiser" as that is what is used in the World War I article?
I was initially going to request changing Britain to United Kingdom, but I saw that the WW1 page prefers using Britain.
Switched to kaiser, with "German Emperor" in brackets at first use - Dumelow (talk) 07:21, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
The policy had been proposed by the German military in 1916 but was opposed by the civilian government under Chancellor Theobald von Bethmann Hollweg who feared it would alienate neutral powers, including the United States. -> Could this be reworded to "The policy had been proposed by the German military in 1916, but was opposed by the civilian government under Chancellor Theobald von Bethmann Hollweg; he feared it would alienate neutral powers, including the United States."
Yes, good idea.  Done - Dumelow (talk) 07:21, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
US would be moot -> Change US to United States
Done - Dumelow (talk) 07:21, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
The policy was announced to the United States on 31 January 1917 and commenced the following day. -> Could this be made the beginning of a third paragraph in the lede? It and the following sentences cover the impact of the policy while the preceding ones cover debate over enacting it.
Yes, agreed and done - Dumelow (talk) 07:24, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
US declaration of war on Germany on 6 April 1917 -> Could you replace US with American?
Done - Dumelow (talk) 07:24, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
From 4 February 1915 Germany had implemented unrestricted submarine warfare, in which merchant vessels were liable to sinking by U-boats without warning. The campaign was abandoned on 1 September 1915 following American protests after the sinking of the liners Lusitania and Arabic, in which a number of US citizens were killed. -> Could this be reworded to "From 4 February to 1 September 1915 Germany implemented unrestricted submarine warfare, in which merchant vessels were liable to sinking by U-boats without warning. The campaign was abandoned following American protests after the sinking of the liners Lusitania and Arabic, in which a number of US citizens were killed."
Agreed and done - Dumelow (talk) 07:24, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
In a meeting with military figures at Schloss Pleß, a palace in Silesia used by the German Emperor Wilhelm II, on 29 December Bethmann Hollweg and Helfferich again voiced the government's concerns over the policy but stated that the final decision must lie with Wilhelm. -> Could you move rearrange the sentence to be "Bethmann Hollweg and Helfferich again voiced the government's concerns over the policy in a meeting with military figures at Schloss Pleß, a palace in Silesia used by the German Emperor Wilhelm II, on 29 December, but stated that the final decision must lie with Wilhelm."
Done - Dumelow (talk) 07:35, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
Wilhelm, Hindenburg and Ludendorff meeting on 8 January 1917 -> Change the image description to "Wilhelm II, Paul von Hindenburg and Erich Ludendorff meeting on 8 January 1917".
Done - Dumelow (talk) 07:35, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
The formal agreement was made between Wilhelm II and Charles I in Berlin on 26 January -> Could you remove their numbering? Per the other usages of Wilhelm's name you do not include the number. Charles I of Austria's page does a similar thing.
Agreed and done - Dumelow (talk) 07:35, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
In response to the adoption of unrestricted submarine warfare the US broke off all diplomatic relations with Germany from 3 February -> Change from to on
Done - Dumelow (talk) 07:35, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
The policy increased the quantity of shipping sunk by U-boats, which had been running at just above 300,000 tons per month since October 1916. -> Can this be the start of a new paragraph? The previous sentences were discussing American relations with Germany while the rest are talking about the tonnage sunk.
Sure thing, done - Dumelow (talk) 07:35, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
I think the multiple image template below would serve the article better than the image of Wilhelm, Hindenburg, and Ludendorff meeting.

I included this image as it shows three of the men involved meeting on the day before the event discussed.  I haven't found any sources discussing this meeting but it appears to have been focussed on land strategy.  I am not opposed to including portraits of the main players as well, perhaps midway through the "meeting" section? - Dumelow (talk) 07:35, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
I have added in where I think it will fit, feel free to change it around - Dumelow (talk) 07:38, 18 October 2025 (UTC)


### Sourcing
There are 21 references in the article. I will be reviewing 8 of them representing 38% of the total. After you answer my highlighted comments below I will approve the article.

Reference [1] does cover Germany's initial unrestricted submarine warfare campaign
Reference [4] does cover the rare usage of the crown council
Could a specific page number be given for reference [5]? Here are direct links to the book for your ease 1 and 2
Oh, don't know how I missed that.  It's page 296 "what was a Crown Council more or less in those pre-war days? Its constituent members, the royal princes, the ministers of state, the field marshals, the chiefs of the Kaiser's military and naval households, the commanding generals, etc., were either in constant attendance on William, or within easy call, while the rest, ex-ministers of state and other high officials on half pay, hovered near, hoping for possible re-establishment if, perchance, they stroked William just right" - Dumelow (talk) 20:17, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
Reference [13] does cover the 4-6 month timeframe for eliminating the UK, Wilhelm viewing that it would "so much the better" for the US to declare war on Germany, Hindenburg and Ludendorff threatening to resign, the US breaking off diplomatic relations and declaring war, and the end of Bethmann Hollweg time as chancellor. However, the section "Hindenburg and Holtzendorff spoke in favour of the policy. Bethmann Hollweg spoke against it stating that "we must reckon, however, on the entry of America into the war, her help will consist of the delivery of food to England, financial assistance, the supply of aeroplanes and a force of volunteers". To this Hindenburg retorted that "we are already prepared to deal with that. The chances of the submarine operations are more favourable than they are likely to be again. We can and must begin them"." is not covered by this source. I typed parts of the quotes into here and did not find them.
Good spot, I must have misplaced the reference somewhere along the way.  The quotes are from Senior (2016), I have added the right ref to the article.  The relevant passage is "On 9 January 1917 the Kaiser presided over a Crown Council on the subject of unrestricted warfare. Both the head of the Navy Staff, Admiral von Holtzendorff and the head of the Army, Hindenburg, spoke in favour. Bethmann-Hollweg was well aware of the possible consequences: 'We must reckon, however, on the entry of America into the war, her help will consist of the delivery of food to England, financial assistance, the supply of aeroplanes and a force of volunteers'. Hindenburg replied: 'We are already prepared to deal with that. The chances of the submarine operations are more favourable than they are ever likely to be again. We can and must begin them" - Dumelow (talk) 20:22, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
Reference [15] does cover Germany not including Austria-Hungary in the discussion until January 20
Reference [16] does cover Austria-Hungary's crown council meeting and its acceptance of the German plan.
Reference [17] does cover Wilhelm and Charles' formal agreement.
Reference [18] does cover the parameters of the German unrestricted submarine warfare campaign and its expansion


### Review
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar):  b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): 
All of my prose comments were done by Dumelow. I can find no further issues with the article.
It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check.
a (reference section):  b (inline citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):  d (copyvio and plagiarism): 
I have conducted a review of 8 random sources representing 38% of the article's sourcing. There were no sourcing issues except for one, which Dumelow corrected. They also provided the page number for one of the sources.
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects):  b (focused): 
Covers the background on Germany's previous usage of unrestricted submarine warfare, the debate over resuming it, and the aftermath.
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias: 
No neutrality issues.
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.: 
This article was created by Dumelow back in 2022. They have authored 96% of the article and the last non-Dumelow edit was by Hugo999 on 16 January 2025. No edit wars.
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions): 
Four images are used in the article.  German Submarine War Zone Announced 1 February 1917.jpeg was published in 1920, and is therefore public domain. It depicts the area of unrestricted submarine warfare, which the article is about.  Lusitania2.jpg is public domain. It depicts the RMS Lusitania, the most famous victim of unrestricted submarine warfare. The Lusitania is also directly mentioned in the article.  German General Headquarters. General von Hindenburg, Kaiser Wilhelm, General Ludendorff, January 1917., ca. 1919 - ca. 1 - NARA - 533182 (cropped).tif was taken in 1917, and is therefore in the public domain. It depicts Paul von Hindenburg and Erich Ludendorff, who are mentioned in the article.  Just like that! LCCN2002714582.jpg was published in 1917, and is therefore public domain. It was made in response to the change in German policy.
Overall: Passed
Pass/Fail: 
The article offers a thorough overview of the German decision to relaunch unrestricted submarine warfare. All of the sources appear to be in line, the images are appropriate, and there are no issues with the prose.