# Talk:All Ghillied Up

After realising that this article is a GAN and as the primary author of the article, I thought I would mention more sourcing to expand the article, though I do not know if I will have time to do this myself before the review. Firstly, the intial reception only includes one review. I did dig through some more reviews however I was unable to find another mention of the level. Though, I am certain it was mentioned in some more reviews that I did not get time to look over. Another source which could added is this [5] YouTube video. Yes I am aware YouTube is generally unreliable as it is a WP:SPS however this video contains direct interviews with Alavi and the design leads which can be helpful to expand the development section. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 14:00, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

I used Youtube as a source once in a good article, so I would encourage adding it.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 18:38, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Yeah I will try to add it parts to the development section if I get the time. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 01:50, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Spy-cicle I know this may seem really pedantic but I've just uploaded a slightly different version of the gameplay screenshot used as I felt it helped illustrate more what the image was trying to convey by having more soldiers in the picture. Wikibenboy94 (talk) 16:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
Having said that, the re-size makes the soldier on the left almost imperceptible anyway... Wikibenboy94 (talk) 12:41, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

@Wikibenboy94: The reason I chose the first one since it does not have the green "Cpt. MacMillan" text which may confuse unfamiliar readers. I say what you mean about trying demonstrate more soldiers but once it is reduced hard to tell either way. Also one thing I realised is that both images have the YT uploaders watermark (maybe if I get enough time at some point I'll be able to upload an ideal screenshot no green text, clear enough soldiers, no water mark).  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 15:41, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

This review is transcluded from Talk:All Ghillied Up/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Haleth (talk · contribs) 14:57, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
I'd be happy to review this. Taking down notes, will be back with commentary soon. Haleth (talk) 14:57, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar):  b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): 

It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section):  b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):  d (copyvio and plagiarism): 

It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects):  b (focused): 

It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias: 

It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.: 

It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions): 

Overall:
Pass/Fail: 

Thank you for picking this up and I look forward to comments (first time trying to write an article on a specific level, tad tricky given the limited coverage of the level unlike say No Russian). Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 15:09, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Before I get a proper review underway, I do have a question though, with regards to the broadness of its coverage. The initial reception section is very thin, with only one source cited. Outside of the ones already cited in the Call of Duty 4 article, I'm sure there are dozens upon dozens of reviews for the original game out there in the wild. Did none of them discuss All Ghillied Up in their reviews at all, even in passing? Haleth (talk) 15:16, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
From memory I remember searching (using ctrl+F) through some of the reliable reviews of Call of Duty 4 (mostly those listed on the main article) and that was the only thing I sizeable part I found. However, it is possible they described/noted the level in some capacity without mentioning the name so I'll have another scan over now. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 18:38, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
@Haleth: I have greatly expanded the intial reception [32]. The reason I did not find much of it before was because hardly any of the intial sources actually state the level name. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 22:47, 14 June 2021 (UTC)


### Lede
Set in Pripyat, Ukraine, in 1996, the player assumes control of then Lieutenant Price and alongside their superior Captain MacMillan must deal with enemies stealthily or overtly or avoid engaging them altogether I find the sentence a bit clunky and could use breaking up: first sentence concerning when where and who, the second sentence explaining what the mission is about.
 Done Split into two sentences: Set in Pripyat, Ukraine, in 1996, the player assumes control of then Lieutenant Price and is assisted by their superior Captain MacMillan. The player must deal with enemies stealthily or overtly or avoid engaging them altogether.
In that context, could you swap must to may?
 Done Replaced with "may"
It was designed by Mohammad Alavi, and is unusual for its stealth gameplay and the choices it offers the player. During development, its enemy artificial intelligence was secretly added to the game due to its unusual complexity. I suggest grouping together statements about Alavi as the level's creator, and about him being responsible for the discreet implementation of enemy AI.
 Done Have reorganised and rewrote parts of the lead. (Now the structure is: first sentence, setting and characters, level content, development then critical reception)
The claim "unusual for its stealth gameplay", is that Alavi's or another developer's own description of the mission, or feedback from the game's critics?
Removed, I falied to verify the claim (iirc it is was new for the series to have steath levels but cannot find a secondary RS cite)


### Level content
The player proceeds to another field where they encounter a platoon with tanks advancing across it, and hide from the enemies in the foliage using their ghillie suits in prone. I don't feel the second part of the sentence connects to the statement of being outnumbered by the platform that well. I suppose you can frame the stealth mechanics as a specific in-universe response to the platoon, but from memory I am certain the duo planned the entire mission all the way to the hotel as a covert one to avoid detection. Alternatively, you may simply emphasize on the ghillie suit part and write about it generally without going into minute detail about proceeding from one node to the other.
I see what you mean here but the reason I think this sentence is important to include is becuase critics specifically highlighted this section of the game (infobox caption, intial recception 2nd para, etc). Though decided to trim this sentence ("They proceed past further areas containing inactive tanks, helicopters and shipping units, whilst dealing with enemies.") as less noted parts of the level.
and in stealth crawl under a series of these vehicles A little bit "crufty" (if that can be a word) tone. Perhaps, and must crawl under a series of these vehicles to avoid detection?
 Done
Soon after, they traverse several buildings, encountering wild dogs, culminating in them setting up in the abandoned Polissya hotel to prepare for an assassination Instead of going into minutae, I think you can just say, they eventually reach the abandoned Polissya hotel to prepare for an assassination? Unless critics in the sources specifically discuss the last few buildings and dogs too?
 Partly done Omitted the mention of Polissya hotel (since mentioned in plot, did not want to repeat now just a generic hotel) Changed to "They eventually reach an abandoned hotel to prepare for an assassination attempt"
Second paragraph is entirely uncited, but it is not placed under plot. The reader may presume that it is not meant to be a plot summary and thus it is not exempt from the necessity of citations to secondary sources. Is it necessary though to put these details in a separate paragraph, when the first paragraph can be streamlined to incorporate the second paragraph's contents by trimming prose that is already duplicated under plot section?
Okay I defintely see where you are coming from here. Could I cite parts of this second para to the game/level itself simliar to plot, since these two choices like the plot itself are entirely scripted. I do not think we have any MOS guidelines in terms of level content (unlike plot) since we have hardly any levels dedicated to specific levels (Category:Video game levels)
I think for the paragraph, you can cite the PC Gamer retrospective piece on the franchise's two most famous levels, since they devoted one paragraph about Captain MacMillan's behaviour and reactivity to the player's actions. Maybe emphasize on the significance of the reactivity mechanic to give context to the fact that it is a 2007 game and that kind of coding sophistication was uncommon in most other contemporary video games.
 Done Added part about NPC reactivity to player action using PC Gamer source (At the time of its release, the level was the first in the series where NPCs could react differently based on the players' behavior like those seem in stealth video games. This allows NPCs to react differently based on whether they can detect the player.. Also cited Kotaku article for other parts since it also discusses player choices.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 08:27, 16 June 2021 (UTC)


### Plot
Some of the details from level content are duplicated in the plot summary (for e.g. arriving in the abandoned Polissya hotel to prepare for the assassination mentioned twice, but not mentioned in the lede). Or maybe it's the other way around since it sounds like story content as opposed to gameplay/level content. It's fine for the lede to repeat some of the stuff discussed in a section since it serves as an introduction, but not between level content and plot.
 Working
Believe this is now  Done, tried to reduce repition between early level content paragraphs and plot section.
The mission ends with MacMillan and Price setting up in the abandoned Polissya hotel preparing for an assassination. -> Grammar, preparing -> to prepare?
 Done Added to "to prepare"
All Ghillied Up" introduces parallels between Captain Price and the game's main player character Soap MacTavish. How so? Unless it can be elaborated on and supplemented with character analysis from a critic's review, that point feels very random to me.
Gotcha. Should I attribute this to Ars Technica under the plot section. Or perhaps shift it to the reception section?
Probably shift it to reception, since it appears to be an original analysis by the critic on the game's themes as opposed to developer commentary on what they were trying to achieve and convey.
Atrributed and moved to reception


### Development
The level was based on game mechanics used in Half-Life and Metal Gear Solid. In it, non-player characters react differently to the player based on distance and angle, rather than a simple proximity trigger. I checked the source. It says "born from study". So is it supposed to convey that Alavi copied the context-sensitive distance mechanic used in these games, or was he simply inspired by them?
So yeah from looking at the PC Gamer sources it says "Born from study of Half-Life and the Metal Gear Solid games ...". The wording is somewhat imprecise as to whether they are talking about inspiration from other series or copying. The phrase in this instance seems to suggest the level was created or formed after Alavi studied games in those series. Thoughts on wording it something like: Alavi drew inspiration from the Half-Life and Metal Gear Solid video games series when creating the level or Alavi studied games from the Half-Life and Metal Gear Solid video games series when creating the level, plus maybe a mention of simliar gameplay mechanics?  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 15:32, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
The second one is probably a better fit, since it is a good direct paraphrase of what the source said, whereas inspired can be a bit more ambiguous.
 Done Incorporated second version
No need to split the paragraph I feel, since it is still about Alavi's code.
 Done merged paragraphs
 making Alavi consider it a success. -> which Alavi considered to be a success.
 Done


### Reception
Many publications highlighted "All Ghillied Up" among other levels in the game. -> highlighted "All Ghillied Up" as a standout among other levels in the game?
 Done, changed
GameDaily's Steven Wong noted that based on whether the player is skillful enough to deal with enemies they will have different results. - GameDaily's Steven Wong noted that players will experience different outcomes depending on their skill levels?
 Done, changed
Burford also complimented the "incredibly tense" prone section as implementing the mechanic in an interesting way. What mechanic? Video game stealth mechanics in a general sense, or a specific mechanic innovated or popularized by the game?
 Done, I believe Burford was just talking about the mechanic of being able to go prone (I really like that incredibly tense prone section in Modern Warfare because of what it means for the game. While more recent modern military games have removed control options like lean, prone, and even jump, Modern Warfare doesn't just retain them, it actually implements them in interesting ways). Changed to "Burford also complimented the "incredibly tense" prone section as implementing the prone ability in an interesting way"
Fair enough, it's clearer now.
The publication particularly praised the pacing and level of player agency. Maybe rewrite the sentence to say, "the degree of agency the level offers players" or something along similar lines?
 Done Changed to "The publication particularly praised the pacing and the degree of agency the level offers players"
were a fan favourite. -> why past tense? Is it no longer a fan favorite?
 Done, changed
He opined that "All Ghillied Up" is Modern Warfare's best level for its tension in avoiding combat as opposed to embracing it, and calling it the "tense, thoughtful soul of the series" for its message of violence begets violence The words "for its tension" feels out of place in the sentence. Maybe a simpler sentence like "because it encourages players to avoid combat instead of embracing it"?
 Done Adjusted, split into two setences simpliying He opined that "All Ghillied Up" is Modern Warfare's best level because it encourages players to avoid combat instead of embracing it. Tyrer went on to call it the "tense, thoughtful soul of the series" for its message of violence begets violence.
I don't believe that citing the results of a reader's poll from a publication which has been questioned for its reliability or quality is appropriate for a GA class article.
 Done Removed.
This difference being if the player gets spotted in "All Ghillied Up" the game will not have a fail screen instead giving the player the chance defend against many enemy soldiers. Should break the sentence up with a comma somewhere.
 Done Added comma "fail screen"


### Discussion
Thank you very much for the comments and feedback I will start addressing them.  Working. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 11:05, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
No worries, and take your time. I went back to the merge discussion and noticed that other editors have brought up a few sources to support their decision to keep the standalone article, including for example, one from Gamasutra. I don't believe that they have been cited in the current version of the article. Have you reviewed the aforementioned sources before to determine whether they are relevant for inclusion? Haleth (talk) 12:23, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
@Haleth: I have resonded above to your comments. I have also added two more sources both from Gamasutra that appeared in the merge discussion (one of them was a case study on game pacing [33] so was a tad tricky trying to incorporate it, but there was some commentar there). Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 17:12, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
I have added new comments. Just a reminder that you have not yet actioned the changes to the second paragraph of the development section. Haleth (talk) 22:44, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
 Working. Apologies thought I had done the development stuff but I must have accidently self-reverted due to different revisions of the article.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 08:04, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
@Haleth: Thank you very much for you comments again, I have responded/addressed to them above. Let me know if you have any more concerns or queries. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 08:36, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
There were a couple of lingering typos, and I thought the ghillie suit reference should be moved to the front of the second paragraph. I've directly addressed them since they are minor stuff. It's a pass for me. Well done and thank you for putting up with me. Haleth (talk) 23:37, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
@Spy-cicle: One more thing. I recommend that this Kotaku article, which is about the documentary discussing the development of "All Ghillied Up" and has an embedded YouTube video link to it, be included at the bottom of the article as an external link. Since a reliable source like Kotaku has highlighted it, it is fine for inclusion.  Haleth (talk) 04:14, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
@Haleth: Great thank you very much for the thorough review of the article. I have added the external link now as well. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 11:23, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

@Spy-cicle While I still don't agree with the Level content section in terms of highlighting lesser moments, I will accept if it was written this way during GAN; however, the prose about the "Recon By Fire" level wasn't. The usage of "strongly compared" and "numerous similarities" feels a bit excessive and less neutral for what is a brief mention in the sources that simply call it very reminiscent or a next-generation version of "All Ghillied Up". At the very least, the sources don't mention any context of the level that we have included (which I think can be assumed is similar to AGU from the comparisons), with the exception of the gameplay systems and enemy AI. Wikibenboy94 (talk) 21:29, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

I would not saying using those terms in this context is overstating or excessive so many RSs compared All Ghillied Up to that level with its numerous specific simliarities. Given this I think it is fair to briefly outline it in the body.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 16:13, 20 August 2023 (UTC)