D: And if I really have an IP application , where I need this kind of of quality of service and having in mind that certain kind of QS will be available in the rest of the internet .
D: So how can I map these things uh to the UMTS stuff ?
D: And what is the trend towards UMTS to the first generation ?
D: And how it is possible to map this one to this technology ?
D: And if you have the building blocks identified , what is really necessary for QS eh QS - in - Advance for for mobile systems , then you have , in principle , the ideas for the following generation what you could improve .
B: Hmm - hmm .
D: Because then you are maybe no more related to this kind of thing .
D: I believe the same applies for Multicast .
D: And I believe the same applies for routing .
D: So , in principle , in the beginning , there would be a certain kind of uh paperwork anyway ,
D: some theoretical examination of these problems ,
B: I think so
D: and then some prototypes must be derived from that .
D: And then maybe we will start here with a certain kind of uh testbed equipment we still have here .
D: We have four uh P Cs available .
D: Maybe we have to extend it then ,
D: and figure out some real scenarios ,
D: and maybe then pfff !
B: Oh yeah .
D: Because uh , despite the fa
D: uh uh Hopefully , then we have with the money also not eh only for the room ,
B: W
D: that would be great ,
D: but there are also some sponsors then then then we add a certain kind of field trial .
D: But I think that 's  pfff ! <comment> that 's years , you know .
B: A long way , yeah .
D: That 's years .
B: That 's right .
D: But in the beginning we must have a certain kind of theoretical framework with the relevant technology .
D: Real technology .
D: Maybe you can start with GPS or or UMTS , or whatever .
D: because these technology will definitely available in Europe .
D: There 's some money spent on it ,
D: so that it will be in a certain kind of flavor .
D: It will be available .
B: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
D: And it will be also available in the USA .
D: Because there is a big eh harmonization effort ,
D: despite the fact they are not aligned to each other anyway ,
D: but they will have s also certain kind of thr third generation and fourth generation networks .
D: So .
D: And after this theoretical framework , if this one is aligned , OK you have some specification
D: and you set up some Linux or Free BSD or whatever kind of prototype .
D: So that is what I have in mind with that .
D: And then OK , and then you will see .
B: Hmm - hmm .
D: The problem is which I see is that it could be fruitful to standardization
D: that it could be fruitful to some extent to telecommunication providers .
D: But there 's not a real product like you say .
D: There 's not the selling idea behind it .
B: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
D: Yeah ,
D: if you go with something what what Wilbert mentioned " OK , let 's have this one here " . We have a new PCMCIA card and and extend something and the end system , or what you mentioned here was the seamless four technologies inter - working in the end s , then you have an an a device which you can sell .
D: If you go for a networking pfff <comment> um uh improvements , in principle , and and understanding next generation building blocks , uh there 's no product .
B: Hmm - hmm .
D: But it is a long term it 's long term , I think , uh work you can do .
D: And it 's more related I believe to the skills
D: to what is available
D: and and currently as I see what uh will be available within the NSA group .
B: OK .
D: And uh , the point is if we focus on on this networking small more networking stuff and em some application guys came into the boat and they focus on their application stuff , whatever this means , It might be we have then the active classroom ,
D: but it could be another one
D: that is not representative ,
G: Yeah but there 's something needed to sell it .
D: it 's only D: Hmm ?
G: And I think D: Yeah .
D: Then then is something available
D: but I don't know
D: you know , I 'm not an application expert ,
D: I D: We have some content .
D: We will then discuss it on next Tuesday as I mentioned .
B: Bless you .
G: Bless you .
D: Uh Anyway , but uh that were is my answer to the question if some money is available .
D: The good thing is that the money is available ,
D: because everybody is paid here .
D: So that is money that the the smallest portion of money which is available .
B: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
D: But first of all Wilbert need more , definitely ,
D: because maybe then KPN is uh no more interesting to go on with this work ,
D: or we can convince with these kind of things which we have in mind ,
D: uh companies like KPN .
D: So
D: And if we have other suggestions and eh have this as a long term
D: NSA core group activity ,
D: and this theoretical framework , whether it is finished in half a year or one year doesn't matter , in principle ,
D: because the road map for the the next generation networks is is eh is for many years .
D: And b before UMTS will be deployed very well , I believe eh it will be common t uh two thousand four or something like that .
D: So .
D: And and have an intermediate project , which is related in this direction , something like the seamless handover for two technologies or whatever .
D: This is a smaller portion in the gen more generic framework , I would like to say , from this proposal .
D: Why not go in this way ?
B: OK
D: I I don't know .
D: But uh that 's the point eh we are sitting here together .
B: Yeah .
B: But D: But for for Dietmar I think eh eh he mentioned it to me , it 's very clear that he will go on with a portion of time , with this USAIA stuff ,
E: That 's right .
E: It depends on my D: in the matical sense
D: because that means for you in a certain kind a certain extent , you are decoupled from networking stuff .
D: Because your focusing on the mathematical thing of whether it 's a network or other thing ,
E: Well , I 'm foc
D: it doesn't matter E: I 'm focused on performance evaluation
D: Yeah .
D: Yeah .
E: and um especially of communication networks
E: and D: Yeah .
E: I never eh e um dealed with um mobile communications .
E: So why not ?
D: Yeah .
D: So .
E: So that 's eh , to open my mind .
D: There is it still ongoing activity with uh maybe a portion of time at the University of Berlin Berlin .
D: And independently whether I will leave the uh uh ICSI in in the mid of December or not , I will still focus on on on these QS - in - Advance schemes
D: eh also within Siemens
D: and also with some project there .
D: And I believe your routing stuff is also available ,
B: Hmm - mmm .
D: uh ,
D: And when you when you will go back to Spain , right ?
B: Yeah .
B: Yeah . Sure .
D: Yeah , so . and and that 's why , in principle , the skills will be always available I guess .
B: Yeah .
B: And and
D: if there is a certain type of project in the home countries and then the eh institutions and B: Mm - hmm .
B: N Not only this .
B: We can even use this u platform to to get some European projects in the future
B: because you know , sometimes eh it 's a good thing D: yeah
D: maybe
D: Currently no money is available , you know .
B: Yeah but uh , this will I think w This will improve over time , I 'm sure .
B: So uh B: Probably .
B: You know , this kind of joint work of different countries de companies , universities . This is usually the best ah the best place to to put a project on .
B: Because it is involving different partners from different points of of Europe .
D: Now , I will not prevent anybody from getting some cake
D: and we are sitting here together
D: it 's uh very uh very slow , in principle ,
D: but my last question is for Wilbert .
D: Wilbert , you I I think you got the basic idea
D: because it was mostly discussed with you here from this current available scrap project proposal .
D: Don't you think that KPN could be convinced to go on this way what I mentioned before ?
D: There 's no way ?
C: No .
D: They needed definitely , in principle , some kind of service or device or product or whatever .
C: Yeah .
C: That 's right now the s the status .
C: Yes .
D: Can we both have together , maybe , I think it 's a little bit more easier , a discussion on Thursday ?
C: I 'm out for th one a week and a half .
C: So on Wednesday , Thursday , Friday , I have a workshop at Stanford
D: OK .
C: and next week I have a week on holiday .
D: OK .
D: Maybe that 's enough time for you to consider a little bit more in this direction ?
C: Could be .
D: And then we could have eh discussion
D: and maybe this one is an overall work , in principle , where everybody could hook in and and get certain kind of small portions to solve it
C: Yeah .
C: So so the only solution would for for KPN would be that there is a p a project in this area .
D: and
C: So that makes sense to do in this ar This , I mean the Bay Area
B: Hm - hmm .
C: with a group of uh a few people ,
C: like four or something ,
C: and that connects to this project .
C: So , one somebody or two somebodies can be found uh founded or get money to join this project .
C: But that the other four should build a service on top of it , that has a clear business focus .
D: mm - hmm .
C: It means eh a a UMTS service basically .
D: Mm - hmm .
D: Can you consider poten also in the meantime , some potential UMTS services besides this one ?
C: Yeah .
C: Yeah , but you see the the they ask something pretty strange .
D: And C: They they want something pretty strange from me that I think of a service ,
C: a network service .
C: There are sixty million billion people in the  in the world that think of services all day
C: and try to make a lot of money with it in the form of start - ups or whatever .
C: And just think of a service like that , if I could do this .
D: No , but , uh fff <comment> maybe based on this one and you see the networking stuff
C: w
D: that it is a little bit more evol evolved and than in the the core network technology in the access network , I would like to say .
C: Mm - hmm .
D: And this is aligned then as much as possible to the internet .
D: That 's the basic idea ,
D: that you can have a certain kind of service which make use of these novel things .
C: Mm - hmm .
D: Because normally I I believe the the the people are either on the application layer ,
C: I you know D: that means higher than layer four ,
D: or they are on layer f one to l l up to layer four .
C: Bu
D: And the service people are considering
D: " OK , UMTS
D: you have some location information ,
D: and maybe you are have the infrastructure in the car ,
D: so , if I provide a certain kind of service , independently what the network is offering , you know .
D: Because they do not consider it very well .
D: They know there is a certain kind of location information
D: and you have a GPS ,
D: and they know , OK , it 's based on satellite .
D: And there 's UMTS , that is based on base station .
D: There 's all that they consider .
D: And then assume , OK , I can do that .
D: And the networking guy said OK it would be great to have Multicast and all these kind of things in the network ,
D: but do not consider really what a sense of benefit uh for applications ,
D: there were new app old application make use of it
D: and how can new application arise
D: which we haven't considered up to now based on this new network function , LAT enrich enriched network function , LAT .
D: So , I think it 's worth to to consider something in that way
C: Well , u until now I have been trying to think about it ,
C: but eh f to me u
C: what I have every every time I encountered it , it is all this is all pretty close by ,
C: like the industry is already behind this .
D: Yeah , what is our C: So they they want to make this available pretty soon .
C: So I 'm just trying to think uh m more ahead , like uh use the wireless device as a only as a signalling thing or something .
C: So so whenever you come in with your uh GSM phone and there is a PC available , like everything will be directed to the the bigger device or something .
C: So more services like that .
C: I think the they are working pretty hard to get IP available very good and efficiently from uh two mobile devices or wireless devices .
D: Not currently there is a techno technology split .
C: a th thing
D: Of course you have IP in the mobile device
D: but if you see the strange protocols text
D: there 's IP over IP and tunnels and and whatever ,
D: so , but it 's uh looks very strange to me
D: because you have different numbering screens , concerning you have a phone number ,
D: you have to map it to IP addresses
D: and and so on ,
D: but for me , you have not the end to end parts of for for IP functionality .
D: We are far away from that .
D: And if you take a really look to the GPRS protocols texts and I believe also they apply for UMTS but I 'm not
D: eh very familiar with that ,
D: and the next generations access network is will come soon .
D: You see it 's every three years or four years they will have a new generation .
C: And there 's a We m
D: But anyway you C: Our group might fo want to focus on the uh IP over ether no nets
D: yeah ?
D: yeah ?
C: or something like
C: or over ether D: Why ?
D: What kind what kind IP over what do you call it ?
C: N no nets ,
D: No net .
C: Yeah .
D: That would be great !
C: Over C: Like only over ether .
C: carefully integrated for net
C: but there is no net .
C: If you want to do make like also for wireless devices end to end IP available , that could be a vision .
C: Like .
D: Can you repeat it ?
C: Well , so he he says well IP to IP or end to end IP , is far  well , it 's far away .
C: um
C: So you what you might want to do is well get U M T S out there
C: and just do uh I Ps playing over radio .
D: Mm - hmm .
D: Something like that is my final vision .
C: Like like SDH , IP over fiber or WDM - WDM .
D: Mm - hmm .
C: This gets rid of the SDH .
C: Or , well , start with get rid of the ATM first
D: Yeah .
D: ATM stuff .
D: Yeah .
D: Yeah .
C: and then get rid of SDH .
D: There 's the problem is is , you see that the providers eh have always there broken view for for the management .
D: If you have different kind of protocols texts and network management system , and the billing system and all these kinds of things which is besides the networking stuff , in principle , but you still need it , is eh not aligned .
C: Yeah .
D: We have it for different islands
B: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
D: and and
D: Well , that 's my final vision you know .
D: If you have really then IP networks at a certain generation where you have really the physical media and where necessary uh additional maclear protocols ,
D: and then you have really always end to end .
D: It makes you things much more simple much more easier ,
B: Uh .
D: uh , but is far far away , you know .
B: Unless unless we speak about quality of service ,
D: Yeah .
D: Yeah .
D: Yeah .
B: which is not eh embedded on on IP services .
D: Yeah but you have the extension for the eh quality of service mechanism
B: Yeah , but D: which you have to map then to the underlying technology .
B: Yeah but for example nobody 's really using RSVP .
D: And D: Yeah but maybe in the LAN interface it makes
D: since to use it
C: Eh you guys do that discussion later on please ,
D: And and But
D: yeah
C: uh ?
D: but I think we sh we will miss the cake
B: OK , sorry , sorry .
C: RSVP .
D: and I think we should stop now but please everybody ,
D: short
D: eh s
D: go on with considerations and potential
D: and and uh
D: um we didn't make s much progress today in the meeting ,
D: but anyway this kind of activity lives from all , from the input of all .
D: And so I really
D: if somebody has an idea send an email
D: and then I would like to enforce everybody
D: not that I 'm doing everything
D: I could not I f didn't have the time in the past
D: and I will not have it in the future
D: and maybe I will stay here only s four weeks or five weeks .
D: So it would be really not the best thing if the activity is dead when I am leaving
D: and if I stay longer of course we can go on
D: but nevertheless I rely heavily uh also from the contributions of everybody ,
D: and it 's in their own interest
B: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
B: That 's right .
D: of of everybody , also from the institution behind . So If there is certain kind of idea or questions or whatever , we are s only a small group of people
D: we can easily join on a white board and and start a discussion .
B: Well , if Klaus D: It must not be on every Tuesday , you know ,
B: OK .
D: at a certain time .
D: And I try to motivate the people .
D: That it 's free .
D: That 's a starting .
D: That 's a ramp .
D: And we can go in different directions .
D: And if you have a real focus on the certain novel thing for the services or UMTS or whatever , great .
D: If not , the long term and then these things must be , nevertheless must be defined in much more detail .
D: Yeah .
D: OK ?
D: So , thanks
B: OK
C: OK
D: please do not , um what Adam mentioned to
E: Not to switch off .
D: uh switch off ,
C: Don't switch it off .
G: Do not Don't switch it off .
B: OK ,
B: yeah , that 's right .
D: So maybe I will find him @ @ .
B: Oh , can you call Adam ?
D: cake area .
B: At this number ?
D: and
D: now let me see whether he will be here ,
D: and
D: We did not forget .
D: We are done .
F: Yeah , just leave them on for now .
F: Sometimes if you turn it off while it 's recording it crashes
D: OK OK .
D: Hopefully everything went fine .