C: That , you know they do MRI , and and if you 're uh got something within reach then there 's one of your areas lights up ,
C: and if something 's out of reach uh a different one .
C: But here 's the the amazing result , um , they say .
C: You get someone with a with a deficit so that they have a perfectly normal ability at distance things .
C: So the s typical task is subdivision .
C: So there 's a a line on the wall over there , and you give them a laser pointer , and you say , " Where 's the midpoint ? "
C: And they do fine .
C: If you give them the line , and they have to touch it ,
C: they can't .
C: There 's just that part of the brain isn't functioning , so they can't do that .
C: Here 's the real experiment .
C: The same thing on the wall , you give them a laser , " where is it ? " ,
C: they do it .
B: Mm - hmm .
C: Give them a stick , long stick , and say " do it " ,
C: they can't do it .
C: So there 's a remapping of distant space into nearby space .
A: Right .
A: So they doubled F: Because it 's within reach now ?
A: the the end the end of this C: It 's not within reach and you use the Within - Reach uh , mechanism .
B: Yeah ,
F: Oh . Wow .
B: yeah .
B: Circuits .
C: So I 'll d I 'll dig you up this reference .
A: Right .
B: That 's cool .
C: And so this doe This is , uh C: First of all , it explains something that I 've always wondered about
C: and I 'll do this this test on you guys as well .
C: So .
C: Uh . How - I have had an experience , not often , but a certain number of times , when , for example , I 'm working with a tool , a screwdriver or something , for a long time , I start feeling the tip directly .
C: Not indirectly ,
C: but you actually can feel the tip .
B: Yeah
B: yeah .
C: And people who are uh accomplished violinists and stuff like that , claim they also have this kind of thing where you get a direct sensation of , physical sensation , of the end affector .
B: Yeah .
B: What 's going on at the end of the tool ,
B: yeah .
A: The ext the the The extension ,
C: Huh ?
B: What 's going on at the end of the tool , or whatever .
C: Yeah ,
C: within A: right .
C: Huh ?
A: The extension of of your hand , right .
C: Yeah ,
C: right .
C: Have you hav y h had this ?
A: The A: I I think so .
A: I mean i i it 's not exactly the th same thing , but but s it it it 's getting close to that .
F: W what does it feel like ?
B: Yeah .
C: Oh i it feels like your as if your uh neurons had extended themselves out to this tool , and you 're feeling forces on it and so forth
C: and and you deal directly with it .
A: I once I I was playing you know with those um uh devices that allow you to manipulate objects when it 's dangerous to get close ?
C: Right , yeah yeah yeah .
B: Oh , OK .
A: So you can insert your hand something
C: Yeah .
A: and there 's a correspondence between C: Yeah .
A: So I played with it .
A: After a while , you don't feel the difference anymore .
C: Yeah , right .
A: I I mean it 's kind of B: Mm - hmm .
A: Very kind of you stop back and suddenly it goes away
A: and you have to kind of work again to recapture it , but yeah .
B: Yeah .
C: Right ,
C: Yeah , so anyway , so So this was the first actual experimental evidence I 'd seen that was consistent with this anecdotal stuff .
B: That 's cool .
C: And of course it makes a lovely def uh story about why languages uh , make this distinction .
C: Of course there are behavioral differences too .
C: Things you can reach are really quite different than things you can't .
B: Yeah .
C: But there seems to be an actu really deep embodied neural difference .
C: And i this is , um C: So . In addition to the e
E: This is more proximal - distal .
C: Yeah uh exactly .
C: So in addition to e ego and allocentric uh which appear all over the place , you also apparently have this proximal - distal thing which is very deeply uh embedded .
C: S
E: Well , Dan Montello sort of ,
E: he he does the uh uh th the cognitive map world , down in Santa Barbara .
E: And he he always talks about these E: He he already well E: i probably most likely without knowing this this evidence uh is talking about these small scale spaces that you can manipulate versus large scale environmental spaces .
C: Yeah .
C: Well there 's there 's uh been a lot of behavioral things o on this , but that was the first neur neuro - physiological thing I saw .
C: Anyway yeah , so we 'll we 'll look at this .
C: And . So , all of these issues now are now starting to come up .
C: So , now we 're now done with demos .
C: We 're starting to do science ,
C: right ?
C: And so these issues about uh , reference , and spatial <comment> reference , discourse reference , uh - uh - uh - uh <comment> all this sort of stuff , uh , deixis which is part of what you were talking about ,
B: Mm - hmm .
B: Mm - hmm .
C: um So , all of this stuff is coming up essentially starting now .
C: So we gotta do all this .
C: So there 's that .
C: And then there 's also a set of system things that come up .
C: So " OK , we 're not using their system . That means we need our system . "
B: Mm - hmm .
C: Right ?
C: It it follows .
B: Yeah .
C: And so , uh , in addition to the business about just getting the linguistics right , and the formalism and stuff , we 're actually gonna build something
C: and uh , Johno is point person on the parser , analyzer , whatever that is ,
C: and we 're gonna start on that in parallel with the um , the grammar stuff .
C: But to do that we 're gonna need to make some decisions like ontology ,
B: Alright .
C: so , um And so this is another thing where we 're gonna , you know , have to get involved and make s relatively early I think , make some decisions on uh , " is there an ontology API that that " C: There 's a sort of standard way of getting things from ontologies
C: and we build the parser and stuff around that ,
C: or is there a particular ontology that we 're gonna standardize on , and if so For example , is there something that we can use there .
C: i Does uh either the uh SmartKom project or one of the projects at EML have something that we can just p pull out , for that .
C: Uh , so there are gonna be some some some things like that , which are not science but system .
C: But we aren't gonna ignore those
C: cuz we 're we 're not only going The plan is not only to lay out this thing , but to actually uh build some of it .
C: And how much we build , and and so forth .
B: I C: Uh . Part of it , if it works right , is wh
C: It looks like we 're now in a position that the construction analyzer that we want for this applied project can be the same as the construction analyzer that Nancy needs for the child language modeling .
C: So . It 's always been out of phase
C: but it now seems that um , there 's a good shot at that .
C: So we 've talked about it ,
C: and the hope is that we can make these things the same thing ,
B: OK .
C: and of course it 's only w In both cases it 's only one piece of a bigger system .
B: Mm - hmm .
C: But it would be nice if that piece were exactly the same piece .
C: It was just this uh construction analyzer .
B: Right .
C: And so we think we think we have a shot at at that .
B: OK .
C: So . The for
C: So .
C: To to come full circle on that , this formalization task ,
C: OK ?
C: is trying to get the formalism into into a shape where it can actually uh
B: Yeah .
B: Be of use to someone who 's trying to do this ,
B: right ?
C: d Well , yeah ,
C: where it actually is is covers the whole range of things .
C: And the the the the thing that got Mark into the worst trouble is he had a very ambitious thing he was trying to do ,
C: and he insisted on trying to do it with a limited set of mechanisms .
C: It turned out , inherently not to cover the space .
B: OK .
C: And it just it was just terribly frustrating for him ,
B: Yeah .
C: and he seemed fully committed to both sides of this i i irreconcilable thing .
B: I see .
B: Right .
C: And .
C: Uh . Johno is much more pragmatic .
B: OK .
C: Uh . Huh ?
B: Good to know .
C: Is This is true ,
C: is it not ?
D: Yes .
C: OK .
C: So there 's you know sort of , yeah , deep , really deep , emotional commitment to a certain theory being uh , complete .
B: Oh , OK .
F: You don't have a hidden purist streak ?
D: Oh no .
F: OK .
C: We - well it hasn't it it certainly hasn't been observed , in any case .
F: Just checking .
D: No sir .
B: Alright .
C: Um . Now , you do , but that 's OK .
C: Uh . So . For for B: Cuz I don't have to implement anything .
C: Exactly right .
F: I have a problem , then .
C: Exactly .
F: It 's So . Whether I do depends on whether I 'm talking to him or him probably .
A: Hmm .
B: Yeah , right .
C: Right .
F: Which meeting I 'm in .
C: Why a actually , uh , the thing is , you you do but , th the thing you have to im implement is so small that Uh .
F: It 's OK to be purist within that context .
C: Within that ,
F: Yes ,
C: yeah ,
F: good .
C: and uh , it 's a and still , I think , you know , get something done .
B: Cool !
C: But to try to do something upscale and purist Particularly if if um what you 're purist about doesn't actually work , is real hard .
F: Yay .
B: Mm - hmm .
B: Yeah .
C: OK .
C: And then the other thing is while we 're doing this uh Robert 's gonna pick a piece of this space ,
A: It 's possible yeah .
B: OK .
C: OK ,
C: uh , for his absentee thesis .
C: I think you all know that that you can just , in Germany almost just send in your thesis .
B: Just a drive up .
B: Ca - chuk !
C: Yeah right .
A: Um
B: There you go .
C: OK .
E: The - th There there 's a drive - in thesis uh sh joint over in Saarbruecken .
B: Exactly .
B: Drive through , yeah .
C: It costs a lot .
C: The the amount You put in your credit card and  as well .
C: But , uh , C: But anyway ,
C: so , uh , that 's um , also gotta be worked out , hopefully over the next few weeks ,
C: so that that it becomes clear uh , what piece uh , Robert wants to jump into .
C: And , while we 're at this level , uh , there 's at least one new doctoral student in computer science who will be joining the project , either next week or the first of August , depending on the blandishments of Microsoft .
B: OK .
C: So , de Uh . And her name is Eva .
B: OK .
C: It really is .
C: Nobody believed th th that F: Yeah , I thought it had to be a joke , of your part , you know
F: like <comment> " Johno made it up ,
C: Yeah .
F: I 'm sure . "
G: Is this person someone who 's in first - year this year ,
C: No , first year coming .
G: or
C: So , she 's she 's now out here
C: she 's moved ,
G: OK .
C: and she 'll be a student as of then .
C: And probably she 'll pick up from you on the belief - net stuff ,
C: so sh she 'll be chasing you down and stuff like that .
G: OK .
E: Document .
C: Uh .
G: Right .
C: Uh , against all traditions .
C: And actually I talked today to a uh undergraduate who wants to do an honors thesis on this .
C: Uh F: Someone from the class ?
C: No ,
C: interestingly enough .
F: We always get these people who are not in the class , who C: Some of th some of them , yeah .
F: It 's interesting .
C: So anyway ,
C: uh , but uh she 's another one of these ones with a three point nine average and so forth and so on .
B: Mm - hmm .
C: Uh , so , um , I 've give I 've given her some things to read .
C: So we 'll see how this goes .
C: Oh there 's yet another one of the incoming first <comment> incoming first - year graduate students who 's expressed interest ,
C: so we 'll see how that goes .
C: Um ,
C: anyway ,
C: so , I think as far as this group goes , um , it 's certainly worth continuing for the next few weeks to get closure on the uh belief - net and the ideas that are involved in that , and what are th what are the concepts .
C: We 'll see whether it 's gonna make sense to have this be separate from the other bigger effort with the formalization stuff or not ,
C: I 'm not sure .
C: It partly depends on w what your thesis turns out to be and how that goes .
C: S so , we 'll see .
C: And then , Ami , you can decide , you know , how much time you wanna put into it
C: and uh , it it 's beginning to take shap shape ,
A: OK .
C: so uh and ,
A: Right
C: I think you will find that if you want to look technically at some of the your traditional questions in this light , uh Keith , who 's buil building constructions , will be quite happy to uh see what , you know , you envision as the issues and the problems and um , how they might uh get reflected in constructions .
B: Sure .
C: I suspect that 's right .
B: Yeah .
B: Yeah .
A: I I may have to go to Switzerland for in June or beginning of July for between two weeks and four weeks , but uh , after that or before that .
C: OK ,
C: fine .
C: And , um , if it 's useful we can probably arrange for you to drop by and visit either at Heidelberg or at the German AI center , while you 're in in the neighborhood .
A: Right .
A: Yeah be uh
A: actu actually I 'm invited to do some consulting with a bank in Geneva which has an affiliation with a research institute in Geneva , which I forgot the name of .
C: Yeah .
C: Yep .
C: E o do y
C: Well , we we 're connected to uh A: Yeah .
C: There 's a there 's a a very significant connection between C: We 'll we 'll go through this ,
A: Yeah .
C: ICSI and EPFL , which is the , uh It 's the Fr
C: Ge - Germany 's got two big technical institutes .
C: There 's one in in Zurich ,
A: Mm - hmm .
C: E T
C: and then there 's one , the French speaking one , in Lausanne ,
C: OK ?
B: Oh , so in Switzerland .
C: which is uh E P
C: F L . So find out who they are associated with in Geneva .
A: Great .
C: Probably we 're connected to them .
A: Right .
A: Great .
A: I 'll let you know .
A: S I 'll send you email .
C: OK .
C: Yeah ,
C: and so anyway we c uh We can m undoubtedly get Ami uh to give a talk at uh EML or something like that . While he 's in in uh E: Hmm .
E: Uh . I I think the one you you gave here a couple of weeks ago would be of interest there , too .
A: Sure , yeah .
C: A lot of interest . Actually , either place , DFKI or uh C: Yeah , so , and and if there is a book , that you 'll be building up some audience for it .
A: Yeah .
A: Right .
C: And you 'll get feedback from these guys .
A: Great , yeah .
C: Cuz they 've actually these DFKI guys have done as much as anyone over the last decade in trying to build them .
C: So we 'll set that up .
A: Cool .
C: OK .
C: So , uh , unless we wanna start digging into the uh the belief - net and the decisions now , which would be fine , it 's probably E: I I tho
E: It 's probably better if I come next week with the um version O point nine of the structure .
C: OK .
C: So , how about if you two guys between now and next week come up with something that is partially proposal , and partially questions ,
C: saying " here 's what we think we understand , here are the things we think we don't understand " .
C: And that we as a group will try to to finish it .
C: What I 'd like to do is shoot f for finishing all this next Monday .
G: Sure .
C: OK ?
C: Uh , " these are the decisions " C: I don't think we 're gonna get lots more information .
C: It 's a design problem .
B: Mm - hmm .
G: Yeah .
C: You know . We C: Yeah .
C: And let 's come up with a first cut at what this should look like . And then finish it up .
B: OK .
C: Does that so make sense ?
B: OK .
E: And um , the the sem semester will be over next week but then you have projects for one more week to come ?
G: No , I I think I 'll be done everything by this uh by the end of this week .
E: Same with you ?
E: No .
D: Nnn .
D: This Well , I 've I have projects , but then the my prof professor of one of my classes also wa has a final that he 's giving us .
D: And he 's giving us five days to do it which means it going to be hard .
C: Yeah .
B: Yeah .
C: Oh . is it a take - home final ?
D: Yeah .
C: Who 's doing this ?
D: Aikin , Alex , yeah .
C: Yeah , figured .
C: That would have been i my guess .
G: Hmm .
C: Right .
C: Um , But anyway , yeah .
B: Pretty soon .
E: OK .
C: OK , so I guess that 's
D: So , the seventeenth will definitely be the last day , like it or not for me .
C: Right .
C: right .
C: So let 's do this ,
C: and then we we well there 's gonna be some separate co
C: these guys are talking ,
C: uh we have a group on the formalization ,
C: uh Nancy and Johno and I are gonna talk about parsers .
C: So there 're various kinds of uh B: OK .
C: Of course , nothing gets done even in a meeting of seven people ,
C: right ?
C: So , um , two or three people is the size in which actual work gets done .
B: Right .
E: Mmm .
B: Yeah .
C: So we 'll do that .
C: Great .
C: Oh , the other thing we wanna do is catch up with uh , Ellen and see what she 's doing
C: because the um image schemas are going to be um , an important pa
B: Yeah .
B: Quite relevant , yeah .
C: We we want those ,
C: right ?
B: Yeah ,
C: And we want them formalized and stuff like that .
B: oh yeah .
B: Yeah .
C: So let me let me make a note to do that .
B: OK .
B: Yeah , I 'm actually probably going to be in contact with her uh pretty soon anyway because of various of us students were going to have a reading group about precisely that sort of thing over the summer ,
D: OK .
C: Oh right !
C: Right right right !
C: That 's great !
B: so .
C: Yeah , I I Shweta mentioned that , although she said it 's a secret .
B: OK .
D: Hi
B: Right ,
C: Th - the faculty aren't faculty aren't supposed to know .
B: no faculty !
D: Wednesday 's much better for me , yeah .
C: But um ,
C: I 'm sufficiently clueless that I count as a B: Yeah , right .
B: It 's as if we didn't tell anyone at all ,
D: Bhaskara .
B: right .