Julie Morgan AM: Thank you, Chair. Good morning. I think you've already got into this bit of the discussion, but what are your views on how comparable the Welsh bac is to other qualifications? I don't know if you've got any more comments on that.
Dafydd Evans: Well, obviously, as we noted, it's become a very rigorous, very large qualification. Actually, it's probably larger than an A-level by now. And, therefore, regarding the rigour and so forth, that's absolutely fine, but I think one of the problems that you're hearing is that perhaps the Welsh bac is trying to be all things to all men. At one end of the spectrum it's trying to be a rigorous qualification that stands up to a Russell university's expectations, and on the other hand, it's trying to develop softer skills and employment skills for people going into work from a vocational area. Can the same product deliver those two outcomes? I'm certainly not sure, and perhaps we need to think: what are we trying to achieve with this qualification?
Julie Morgan AM: Right.
Kay Martin: Yes, and earlier, we talked as well about that difference for the A-level students. They know what it is. It's worth UCAS points. For the vocational students, some things like the Career Ready programme, which is used in other colleges, and WorldSkills, you know, where all colleges have really been pushing to get more learners into WorldSkills at national and international level. And for some of our learners, particularly if we take our engineering learners, then having somebody who has competed in Europe as a tiler or an electrician would, I think, make an employer think, 'I'd better look at this person', whereas the other one has done the Welsh bac—. I think they would look at the WorldSkills person first. And the investment we have to put into WorldSkills is huge. So, for some of our learners, we choose that you do WorldSkills, because that is going to be more valuable for you as a skill, and to show to an employer how much extra time you've put in. So, they put a lot of time—you know, to get somebody into a WorldSkills competition is not just a couple of hours a week, it isn't just the normal curriculum—they have extra time. They are more able and talented vocational learners, and that is more valuable to those learners and I think it's more valid for employers than the Welsh baccalaureate.
Nick Brazil: I think it's got to, extending on what Kay says—. It's got to be—. You know, it is comparable, as long as it's right for that learner's future. If it's right for the learner's future, absolutely it's comparable. But if a learner wants to go into a particular sector and the Welsh bac is not accepted, it's not comparable. But, then, if it is into a certain sector and the skills are being developed in the right manner for that sector, absolutely. But it's got to be right for the learner.
Julie Morgan AM: What are the reasons why some colleges do see it as being rigorous and others don't? Why does the view vary?
Ed Evans: Can I give perhaps an employer's perspective on that, which might be completely wrong, but it's been interesting listening to what's been said here? About a year ago, we bought the WJEC in to speak to our employers, or a number of them, just to explain to them what the Welsh bac was about—back to listening and about understanding, really, and it just was not there at all. I could see that most of the employers there were really impressed with it once they understood what it was about and they saw the opportunities at a whole host of levels. We've kind of gone into an university discussion here, but there are school leavers leaving at 16 or 18. The skills that they bring having gone through this process I think most of the employers could get, at least in my sector, they could understand—'I can see what that person can do.' But we've also seen it from university-educated people as well. They are a little bit too focused on the academic side of things. Those that bring a little bit of world experience, a little bit of the Welsh bac-type of things, just become far more rounded and useful people. I can understand why there's a certain obsession, almost, with the academic side of it, but I think we lose that vocational bit at our peril, and to a certain extent we probably haven't got it in many quarters anyway. So, for me, the Welsh bac helps to build that. Call it something else maybe, but that's what it should do.
Julie Morgan AM: Right. And those skills that are learnt in the Welsh bac, can they be learnt in any of the other qualifications? Because I know that Cambridge university said to us they thought, in the four A-levels that they asked for, that those skills were there.
Kay Martin: It probably depends on the subjects that people are studying and the combination of subjects and the institution. Generally, in college, even if they're doing A-levels, they go out on some community projects or work-related education, without the Welsh bac—even if they're not doing that. So, it does depend on the subject, I think.
Dafydd Evans: I think there's a real danger of us perhaps becoming overly critical here as well of the Welsh bac in terms of—I don't think it's perfect by a long way, however, learners are getting some value out of that process. Certain learners in departments where they have really worked hard to contextualise the Welsh bac within the vocational area, within the A-level subjects that the learners are doing, are finding it very rewarding. So, there are some very positive things coming out there. I think what we're suggesting is there may be even better ways of doing it and better ways of explaining to people what it's about.
Nick Brazil: On this point about the skills being developed, I think that's debatable if all the skills that are supposed to be developed in the Welsh bac are being developed, and that's why I think there's a need to relook at it to make sure those skills are being developed fully. But I will go back to the point that I think a comparable qualification is comparable as long as it achieves the right outcome for that particular learner. If you force a learner to do something that is not necessarily going to achieve the outcome that they require in their future, is it the right thing to be doing for that learner? That's what my concern is.
Dr Rachel Bowen: I think the baccalaureate approach is best at producing independent, inquiry-based learners who have the skills to look to teachers not as sources of information but just for guidance. That whole sort of approach about creating inquisitive young people with the skills that we've discussed, that's a real positive. The chances are that we've lost some of that by trying to fit it into being a specific qualification. The approach is a positive one.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, to both Rachel Bowen and Nick Brazil, if you don't mind. Both of you mentioned this is about skills and a piece of paper that demonstrates that you have these skills. At pre 16, would it be fair to say that there have been occasions when people have come presenting those pieces of paper but actually show none of the skills that they were supposed to have? The reason I'm asking this question, having had children who've gone through the process myself, is that in some schools, and I'm not saying all, doing the bac is something that everybody does in the last four weeks of term, and that undermines the whole idea of the bac anyway. It's just not fair on the learners or the people teaching the bac. Is that a fair observation?
Dr Rachel Bowen: I think it's perfectly possible for learners to reach FE college having attained the Welsh bac under the process that you've described, and without necessarily having gone through the holistic inquiry-based independent skills that we would want to see.
Nick Brazil: Yes, and at interview process or during an interview, or in the first week, you can see that they haven't developed those skills, and I think it is down to the variable models that have been put in place. There are lots of different models, and if you put, as I said, the model that you've described in place, there is no way, in that period of time, you're going to develop those skills. But that indicates, again, the value that people are putting on the qualification, if they are squeezing it into three or four weeks of term.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes. It might be different post 16—I accept that. Okay. Thank you.
Dr Rachel Bowen: And obviously practice will differ across schools.