Lynne Neagle AM: You won't get any arguments from us on that. Siân Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes. I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands, and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum, of course. What are the challenges? I'll begin with the WLGA, in general, and ask you, in both your areas, what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum, and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them? What are the challenges associated with that?
David Hopkins: In general terms—. You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs. PRUs: clearly, we know that they are following a set curriculum; they are inspected; they are under the control of the local authorities. So, we're happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there. Where home tuition is provided through the local authority, as has been discussed, again, there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving. You can't always guarantee what then happens in the home. As you say, particular things happen there, and they may not get that. But that's a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle. It's more difficult where, I suspect, it's being provided by a third party that's been commissioned. The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place; it's all about the monitoring then. But that's a very general, broad-brush answer. I couldn't give you a definitive one of what's happening across Wales. My colleagues can probably tell you what's happening in their localities, and that would be helpful. But in general: PRUs, yes, we'd be satisfied; home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority, yes, we would be satisfied; other areas, we would not be able to give a definitive answer on, is my guess.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And does that worry you?
David Hopkins: Me?
Sian Gwenllian AM: The WLGA.
David Hopkins: Of course it's a concern. If you can't guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person, it is a concern.
Nick Williams: In the region, we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training. Certainly, they also work with school staff as well. So, the developments are quite positive currently, but there is work to do, I agree.
Sian Gwenllian AM: In terms of the how curriculum is at present, are you happy that it's being delivered?
Nick Williams: To be honest, we are—
Sian Gwenllian AM: In the PRUs?
Nick Williams: To be honest, they are broad and balanced. They have to be broad and balanced currently. But there's working together now in terms of the new curriculum, and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well.
Sharon Davies: Collaboration, I think, is the answer, between the PRUs and the schools. Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes. I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they're under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system, in a way.
Nick Williams: They're not with other people all the time; they just go for something So, they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU. So, they're not out all the time.
Sian Gwenllian AM: No, it's beyond the PRUs I'm talking about. If a pupil is in a PRU, you are telling me that they have the curriculum. But for those who are in homes, or in private provision, perhaps who are not in your experience—. Maybe, this morning, we're getting a picture of the best practice, and we're not going under the surface to where things aren't as good in some areas. Do you agree that there is that inconsistency? What we're hearing about now are the best elements.
Nick Williams: Consistency is developing across Wales.
Sian Gwenllian AM: With the curriculum?
Nick Williams: Yes, and in terms of collaboration. I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is developing.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Siân. Questions now from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. It's really around support. It follows on a little bit from what Siân was saying. Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS? The information that we've had is that it's difficult enough in mainstream schools, but in an EOTAS setting, it's particularly challenging. So, how can that be improved? What can we do to address that? The reason I'm saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that's why they're there, quite often. So, it's almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through.
David Hopkins: If a child has additional needs, of course they should be met, whatever the setting. But I take your point. There's a possibility that—. Again, going back to the previous question, we would know within, say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met. I can't tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I don’t know—but they should be. Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system, then, again, if a child has a particular need, of course that need should be met, but it becomes increasingly difficult. So, I think there possibly is an issue there, but I don't know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that. But there certainly may well be an issue there.
Dawn Bowden AM: There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening, isn't there? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening, we know that it’s not; we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either. The basic numeracy, literacy and well-being stuff is taking place, but there is discrepancy of provision, even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision.
David Hopkins: I think there will be variations in provision, but I would say that, within the local authority maintained sector, that provision should be being made. If it's not, the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that.
Nick Williams: We've probably—[Inaudible.]—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision. Going back some years, they weren't— What you're describing, it was true. However, the most recent inspection is very positive, and not that we recognise that there's no work to be done; we're not being complacent. But to answer your question, I think the biggest challenge is the capacity. So, I suppose that comes down to additional funding, because I'd like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision, but we haven't got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system.
Dawn Bowden AM: And—. Sorry, go on.
Sharon Davies: It's kind of what Nick said about capacity, but it's also ensuring the right staff as well, because sometimes, you may have them, but if they move on, or retire, or whatever, there's not a bus load, if you like, of people with that expertise. Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise, and therefore, it's quite niche, and once that person has moved on, it's really difficult to start all over again.
Dawn Bowden AM: I understand that.
Sharon Davies: Absolutely. It's more than just one person—it's the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, and I'll come back to that in a moment.
Nick Williams: But I think that's something we could do better. I think we need to be more—. Because that's not just down to money, it's making sure that we perhaps offer, through our teacher training colleges, the opportunity for them to spend some time. At the moment, a newly qualified teacher can't work in this type of provision, which you can argue, that's fine, they need to perhaps get mainstream first. But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps. So, that should be built in to their teacher training, and even through their ongoing professional development, both ways—staff actually coming out to schools, going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you've worked in PRUs for—. You've got very specialist skills, but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well. So, we could be doing more there, and I think that's probably, the group I chair, a discussion we need to have.
Dawn Bowden AM: And on that point, actually, we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision. There really isn't the capacity for them to access professional training. Is that your experience? And if so, what can we do about that?
Sharon Davies: I think it's limited. I think it is getting better, as Nick mentioned. There are networks now, there are conferences. It is an improving picture, but I think it's limited.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, okay. So, is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS?
Nick Williams: Yes, but again, it's a capacity issue, because if we take them out of the provision, it's difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands. So, it's not an easy conundrum.
Dawn Bowden AM: No. But you're saying, really, take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting. I understand that.
Sharon Davies: Or whether there's an opportunity, if somebody wants to lead into that more, that there's an opportunity to do it; that there's an offer there, if they want to specialise more into that area. But at the minute, there isn't that option.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Can I just take you back to pupil support? We talked about ALN. What about access to mental health services? What's your experience of EOTAS learners' access to mental health support?
Nick Williams: Again, even in the region there's variation there because we've got three health boards over the footprint of the south-west and mid Wales region. So, it varies. That's my understanding, anyway, and I think that's similar across Wales. Ours hasn't been great, to be honest with you. And that's one of the positive steps, that health boards have to have a DECLO now—don't ask me, I can't remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we've met with the designated education clinical lead officer, and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future. But it's also us then having a well-being strategy and support that is universal. So, there's counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through, if you like—. Not that we're trying to stop them going through, but we're trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they're not inundated either.
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, of course. But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision.
David Hopkins: I was going to say, about the question, I think there's a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services, for example. I'm not criticising the services, I'm just saying the capacity isn't there, as we would like. So, I think there's probably a more general issue there that would, in turn, translate into pupils who've got additional needs, whether they're in EOTAS, PRU or wherever. I suspect—I've not got an evidence base to offer you, but there's a very long-standing problem there.
Lynne Neagle AM: Siân, you had a supplementary.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes. Just to return to teacher training, and you say that new teachers can't go straight into a unit, and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect. But generally speaking, if there's an increase in challenging behaviour, are new teachers able—? They don't have the experience, but are they equipped well enough to deal with that? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour, and again, I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that. And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour. Do you know what I'm saying?
Nick Williams: It's not just—. If people decide not to go into teaching after having training, it's not just because of challenging behaviour. There is a change now. There is more time for students in schools, so that helps. You need the theory, but also the practice—that's important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice. Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school.
Sian Gwenllian AM: But if we're facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people, then it creates a great big challenge, doesn't it? We're looking at something very limited here, but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what's happening. Would you agree with that?
Sharon Davies: Yes, certainly.
Lynne Neagle AM: Sharon, the CAMHS in-reach project is operational in Gwent, but my understanding is that they don't include PRUs. Is that right?
Sharon Davies: I don't know if that is the—.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, that's fine, that's my understanding. I just wanted to ask, then, the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent, and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team, can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs?
Sharon Davies: I think any form of professional learning, it's positive, and, therefore, as we alluded to earlier, it's that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there. It's having a positive impact. At the minute, I don't know what the overall impact is. I think it's early days, but it seems to be positive.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Janet, I think some of the areas have been covered. Is there anything you want to pick up from the—?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners, particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales?
Nick Williams: Certainly, in our region, in Powys, from north Powys, when you're almost in Oswestry, down to Ystradgynlais, which is not far from me. So, you've got provision for those types of learners there. I think they've got provision in the north and south of the county, but you're still talking—
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What provision in the north?
Nick Williams: I think there's a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south—
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Oh, sorry, north of Powys.
Nick Williams: North Powys.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Oh, sorry, I thought you meant north Wales. Sorry.
Nick Williams: Sorry. But even so, the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, I've got a—. It's a big issue.
Nick Williams: For myself, and I'd hazard a guess, Torfaen, we're relatively compact, aren't we, so it's not such an issue.
Lynne Neagle AM: Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue?
David Hopkins: I'm not aware of issues, if I'm honest, but then again, it may be something we've not investigated. I'm quite happy to look at that.