Dafydd Evans: Could I start and then open it up? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence. But just to give you the context, I think, if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru would be, it would be quite unanimous, but I think on the Welsh bac there is a difference of opinion, and I'm sure you'll hear those differences on the panel before you today. We've possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion. So, I just want to give you that context at the outset. To answer the specific question, no, I don't think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac means or what it includes. Personally I don't think that even the title of the Welsh bac is helpful, because it doesn't say what's happening in the tin. So, I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title, and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac. So, no, I don't think that employers understand the value or what we're trying to achieve through the Welsh bac at present.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Which is a big problem.
Dafydd Evans: Yes, it's a huge problem, but not only to employers, but also to parents and young people, of course.
Dr Rachel Bowen: And I think that that varies by size of employer as well. That, certainly, where there are larger employers, who've got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum, they may have more capacity to follow changes, get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving. But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses. And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand, the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the day-to-day running of the business. And that means it's quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac, what does it offer. And, certainly, when that's evolved over the past few years and there have been changes, it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those, I imagine.
Nick Brazil: Could I add to that? As do many of my colleagues within the colleges, we have a number of employer boards, which we regularly meet with—employers—and I cannot think back as to how many employers say to us, 'That is what we require—the Welsh bac—to come and work within our industry.' Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within those professional sectors. Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require. I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac initially, but the Welsh bac has turned into quite a rigorous, some would say demanding, qualification, which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy, in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the year, and whether that's developing the skills that employers require is very questionable. And, as I said, from the employer boards that we have, very few of them understand the Welsh bac. They certainly don't mention the Welsh bac and, as I said, are very much questioning the qualifications that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Kay, is that your experience?
Kay Martin: Certainly, it's very similar, and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification. They're having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales, and changes to qualifications. But they want them to get their main qualification. So, if you're an engineer, they want to get the engineering qualifications and they want them to be literate, numerate, and they want them to have digital skills. And that isn't captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate. And, so, the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. And, finally, I know you've got strong views as an organisation.
Ed Evans: Do you mind if I carry on in English—
Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine.
Ed Evans: —just so that a lot of our members will understand when I'm speaking. I think it's fair to say employers don't understand it, that's for sure, but I think if they did, they would really appreciate this. For my sector in particular—the civil engineering sector—and particularly the contracting sector, which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background, the Welsh bac gives them that ability, I guess, not to pursue so much of an academic focus, but to test them in terms of the challenges, but also, to—. And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this, and supporting schools and colleges to deliver it, they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry. And some children, some pupils, some young people, they respond far, far better to that. And I think that's the issue for me—that we've not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them. All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent, and that would be true of a lot of employers as well. So, perhaps there are differences across the sector, but I think, certainly for my sector, we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate.
Sian Gwenllian AM: What are we going to do, then, to improve employers' understanding of the Welsh bac, and whose work is it to try to persuade employers that it is worth while, if you feel that it is worth while, of course?
Dafydd Evans: I think we need to review the qualification, and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review, so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within that qualification. And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications board, I think the employers—. And the only way we'll get employer buy-in is that if they feel ownership of what's being done. Because I think that's what the vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate—that it was going to improve skills for employment. But, somehow or other we've lost our way. The aim is an excellent one, but I think we've lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day, and I think having more input from employers would be a great help.
Ed Evans: I will carry on in English, if that's okay.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, it's no problem.
Ed Evans: I would agree. I think we do need more employers involved in this. I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment. I suppose that the bee in my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social value-type contracts in this sector, and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more co-ordinated way. It happens at the moment. It's the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts. They're there to serve a really good purpose, but it's become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic, whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity—. It's something that's part of the curriculum. It's clearly not functioning well at the moment. It would benefit from that business input. So, why not link up those contractual clauses, which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more structured way of getting employers into schools? At the moment it's a little bit—we'll pick up the phone, we'll get a phone call, and it'll be, 'Can you come and do something for us?' It's tokenistic. We need to be far more clever in terms of how we join these things up, and then I think you'll start to get that business input there, but let's not be ad hoc about it.
Kay Martin: Could I just add something? We've also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well. Career Ready is a national programme, which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use. That's where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme, from employment, and they all go out for at least six weeks' internship. So, they don't go for a day's work placement or two days—they go for six-week internships. Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations. We've got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London, which is one of the top law firms in the world. So, there are lots of other programmes as well, and perhaps there's a way of joining it all up together. But, in the college, we've got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them, but it's not the one that engages employers the best, certainly in our college.
Sian Gwenllian AM: So, do we get rid of it?
Lynne Neagle AM: You don't need to answer that. [Laughter.]
Sian Gwenllian AM: I mean, if there are so many other programmes helping anyway, why do we need it?
Nick Brazil: I think that is a very good question, but I will go back to Ed's point, which I think was a very important point, which is that the initial vision for the Welsh bac—I think when we go back a number of years—was a really good, good vision for the Welsh bac. It was going to be an overarching qualification that developed these skills, and certainly employability skills, and I think it's lost its way since then. It's become a qualification and all the realms around becoming a qualification, and it's become very much focused on outcomes rather than necessarily skills. And that's what happens, unfortunately. But I think what Ed said is absolutely right: if you get the engagement of the employers—. But you've got to listen to what Kay said as well: there are programmes already out there. So, why are we focusing one way when there are already programmes that work extremely well? I will go to the enhanced programmes, enhanced engineering and programmes that we are running within our college and that I know run in other colleges, which are much, much more focused on skills, much more focused in linking with industry, and they work extremely well. The actual progress of learners into employment is happening. So, I think the question is: have we got programmes already in place, and do we need another one on top? But the vision initially for the Welsh bac, as I said, I will always be positive about. The vision was a good one.
Dafydd Evans: I'd like to expand on what Nick said. It's important for you to understand that although we always try and put the learner first, funding does drive behaviours, and the Welsh bac is fundable; Career Ready isn't. So, yes, there are options out there, but because we're so focused on qualifications and we will only fund qualifications, that drives certain behaviours, and I think you need as a committee to be very much aware of that.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you've got a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, but that was very useful information for us, because bearing in mind what Nick Brazil said—that the vision of this was created as almost something that could have the status of something like a Duke of Edinburgh award without necessarily being a compulsory qualification; what was important was that the learners got the skills. However, if getting the qualification is how you get the money, then you can see why schools—well, and indeed colleges—might be tempted to go for it. So, thank you for that. Diolch.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Have you finished? Janet.