Gareth Pierce: Yes, and we've been part of starting that discussion amongst publishers in Wales. Certainly, there is interest. I think that I haven't described correctly the purpose of a seminar to encourage interest: the interest is there, but there needs to be an understanding of what the implications are of working towards that kind of timetable, what the implications are of working in two languages, what kind of business model, perhaps, would be suitable for the publishers in Wales, how much certainty could be given to them that there is a period of work, because they would want to build their teams, and develop skills within those teams, and to have enough certainty that this is worth doing. And therefore, those are the sort of issues that we're starting a discussion on, in the hope of having a discussion in June to move that forward. Of course, Welsh Government, Qualifications Wales and other stakeholders are part of this discussion, not only WJEC, but we've been part of initiating that discussion.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Is this developing at the pace that you would like to see it developing?
Gareth Pierce: Yes, I think, and there is some enthusiasm. For example, a number of publishers in Wales are within an association describing itself as Cwlwm Cyhoeddwyr Cymru. Myrddin ap Dafydd is chair of Cwlwm at the moment, and there is enthusiasm and vision, certainly. So, there's a wonderful opportunity, I think, for Wales to interpret these possibilities swiftly and then hopefully take action on them.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: And we're talking here not just about translating but developing resources, and the point, I think, is an important one around some of the evidence that we've received about the importance of developing resources naturally bilingually from the very beginning, rather than having to translate something. Because there have been comments that translations are clunky, difficult to follow and not—I'm not saying that they're not fit for purpose, but certainly don't facilitate teaching, perhaps, as easily as one would wish.
Gareth Pierce: Yes, I would agee, and that begins with the authors, doesn't it? We must have the authors—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, the expertise, and the same capacty with the publishers as well.
Gareth Pierce: Yes, and we do want to nurture authors within Wales, particularly given that the new curriculum has to do justice to a Welsh dimension within the curriculum in so many different subjects. So, we need authors who can be developed, and authors who would be willing to work with the publishers. That's a very specific theme within one of the ideas of the seminars with publishers.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Would that market be viable without any sort of subsidy, if it were to develop bilingually? Or do we have to accept that they have to have an element of public subsidy?
Gareth Pierce: Our view in the WJEC is that subsidy will be necessary. But we could rethink the model for the subsidy, perhaps. At the moment, the subsidy is described as a subsidy for the Welsh-medium version. Why not rethink that and think of a subsidy for producing resources in two languages for the Welsh curriculum? And perhaps we would need a little more funding for that. But there will be organisations such as the WJEC who will still be interested in contributing, because we are a charity, and within our mission is investment in various things that supports education in Wales.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But in terms of where we are now, resources have to be translated. I struggle at times to understand why it takes so much time to translate a resource. I would like to know better, perhaps, what the main barriers are in that sense. But also, how long is acceptable to wait for a translation, in your view?
Mike Ebbsworth: We've done a great deal of work recently, over recent years, to ensure that that delay between having an English version and a Welsh version is reduced. We are highly aware of the fact that the best-case scenario is that the Welsh and the English are available simultaneously. In those terms, we've taken huge steps forward with the publishers that we've named this morning, so that we have discussed translation as the textbook is being produced. There is a risk there, of course. The nature of books is that the author may change his or her mind, or edit as he or she is writing. Well, with that model, we would have to ensure that we approved as we moved forward, chapter by chapter perhaps, so that there would be no changes to be made from then on. At the end of the process, then, the publishers in England have agreed to hold the English version back for a period of time until the Welsh version is available, and then to publish both simultaneously. Unless that timetable is followed throughout the process, there are inherent risks in that process, of course, as I've mentioned in terms of translation as we author materials, and in ensuring that that timetable is stuck to.
Gareth Pierce: And perhaps there is a need to emphasise that the process is translation and editing as a package, and that sometimes the same amount of time goes on the editing, how the Welsh works in terms of diagrams and things that aren't text necessarily—pictures and so forth. So, eight weeks, I think, is the time that we've succeeded in agreeing with the publishers so that we can turn around the Welsh version in that period of time.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Darren.
Darren Millar AM: I just want to ask about this eight-week delay. So, you’re telling us, Mr Ebbsworth, that the WJEC has agreed with Hodder and Illuminate that, in future, even if an English textbook is available for publication, and it’s already late, you will further delay the availability of that textbook so that it can be published on the same day as the Welsh-medium textbook?
Mike Ebbsworth: We can only work on those books that are in the process of being developed. Naturally, if something is late in English, then that timetable would be affected in terms of a decision that will ultimately have to be taken. But that's the hope: that when new textbooks are produced in English and authored in English, we would look at that eight-week period as a turnaround.
Darren Millar AM: I understand the point that you made earlier about the chapter-by-chapter approach, which seems much more equitable. But to suggest that you will delay books that could be available for students and could be available for teachers to be able to access by two months because you haven't got the systems in place to be able to produce them on the same day, seems to be wholly inappropriate. Can I ask, also, why on earth it isn't possible to produce Welsh-medium textbooks first and then translate them to English on occasions?
Mike Ebbsworth: We're entirely open to that and to that sort of model.
Darren Millar AM: So, why has that never ever been done?
Gareth Pierce: Well, of course, it would happen with subjects that stem from Wales, but I think the problem is that we work with publishers and those publishers and their authors, therefore, tend to work through the medium of English. But, just to be clear, this idea of delaying an English version is something that the Welsh Government is eager for us to experiment with, but not with textbooks that are already late. They are within the new programme of textbooks that are contained within the grant that you mentioned of £500,000. So, in a way, this is an experiment and the Welsh Government wants to look at this as one way of responding to the complaint that there are different timetables available.
Darren Millar AM: So, you're being forced to do this by the Welsh Government, rather than—
Gareth Pierce: Well, we've agreed to do it in discussion with them.
Darren Millar AM: So, are you happy with that approach?
Gareth Pierce: Well, as long as the textbook isn't late in the first place, then yes; it's worth trying. There is a challenge on the eight weeks, there is a challenge in the publisher sticking to the timetable in terms of the English version first of all, but we are willing to use this as a test bed, and we're working on two specific textbooks on this.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think the committee is struggling with this idea, so what do you understand to be the rationale behind that, then? Is it that both sets of pupils should be equally disadvantaged?
Gareth Pierce: Well, no, in a way, it uses the same principle as we have regarding our use of digital resources. With the digital materials, the intention is that things are available in time and that they're available in both languages at the same time. So, trying to imitate that with printed text is what we're trying to do, but not with texts that are already late. So, if these books keep to the timetable, then they will be available in time in both languages, but that the English version has stayed before going out on the shelves.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, that's to say that the English version will be completed eight weeks beforehand so that you have eight weeks for translation.
Mike Ebbsworth: Well, ultimately, I may have used the wrong words in saying that we're holding the English back. The English version would still be in the process, just as the Welsh version would be, and then they would catch up as they approach the date for publication and printing. There is an element of editing the English as well as the Welsh and that would happen in that eight-week period. So, a draft form might be available, and we do ensure that our draft versions are available on our secure website as soon as possible, but then that has to be held up before publication.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. John.
John Griffiths AM: Just on that, Chair, it's nonetheless the case, as we've heard, I think, and as the letter to the committee from Kirsty Williams has made clear, that there might be a situation where the English-language version of a textbook could be made available, but it isn't made available because there isn't a Welsh-language version. And, as the Chair said, is that about putting those students in Wales on the same footing, and if so, how does that relate to the fact that these students, including those who could have had earlier access to the English-language version, are competing with students over the border, as we heard on the video earlier, for those precious university places? Doesn't it place the English-language student using the English-language version at a potential disadvantage, compared to students over the border?
Gareth Pierce: I think this is a point for Qualifications Wales to a certain extent, but applicants for qualifications in Wales are assessed as a national cohort, if truth be told, so, each piece of information we have on the standards is evaluated for that national cohort. The standards stem from the three-nation system. So, in discussion with Qualifications Wales, we ensure that there is no disadvantage to any cohort in Wales in any subject, be that because of a textbook being unavailable or for any other reason.