D: You have to have in mind always the end to end scope .
D: And if you see , for instance We have routing algorithm but different protocols and whatever kinds of things , u
D: especially also for Multicast ,
D: different things really for different providers ,
D: and uh and it 's uh very easy to change it , maybe in the access network , for novel things .
D: For instance , that 's one provider domain
D: and you can say well why not use active routing in that provider domain ?
D: So it means that packet are delivering information ,
D: and you do not have the separation of routing and and and forwarding process .
D: It 's impossible to deal with that in the whole internet ,
D: because security reasons and whatever kinds of things make it impossible .
D: So how to combine these pos uh potential um extensions in the um access networks , and D: without losing the end to end scope in the internet .
D: Then you can have certain n novel features
D: give the providers like KPN or whatever , the po the potential , in principle , to to uh see the building blocks for the future networks
D: because there 's a three g third generation like UMTS , a fourth generation more IP related .
D: There will be a fifth generation , I 'm sure .
D: And then you derive the certain kind of building blocks for this network ,
D: if you ever really full I uh uh full I P , end to end .
D: But nevertheless you can only not only focus on " OK , I provide this mechanism "
D: because u you are accessing a certain kind of server node in the internet , using any application .
D: And then this mechanism must fit it there .
D: But nevertheless eh internet backbone is in the meantime , based on its success ,
D: impossible to change .
D: You see the difficulties with IP version six ,
D: eh eh you see the difficulties with Multicast .
D: They are discussed since , you know , ten years or whatever .
D: The specification are rather stable and and available
D: but we have only islands in that .
D: We cannot assume that everything is end to end available .
D: And so you have to mi to have to have in mind that certain kinds of mechanisms are maybe at a certain stage end to end available ,
D: maybe we have a lucky that the islands are connected to each other
D: or the same applies for MPLS , for instance ,
D: maybe they are only portions available ,
D: how to deal with that when the islands are not available
D: and maybe nothing is available .
D: But you have to select it
D: because I have a mobile phone , a mobile node or whatever kind of device ,
D: and I want to contact a certain kind of content in the internet .
D: So is it possible to d have certain kind of normal features in the access network without losing the end to end scope of with these difficulties we are dealing with .
D: I always say that the success of internet make it unflexible .
D: It 's impossible to change something <comment> very easy . s
D: s
D: It 's easy maybe more on the access network as in the internet backbone .
D: So that is eh overall picture that we have in mind with these things .
D: And we can not u
D: We we are six people
D: or seven or whatever
D: if Hannes come ,
D: We are not able to solve the problems uh in in uh w in the few years or whatever
D: what the whole internet community has um done in in si since uh since a decade .
D: But we can f pick up some f some um potential and and and to start with something .
D: And that 's my missing point .
D: That we have here , in principle , really the description of this problem I mentioned
D: and focus really on the reasonable size of the project
D: maybe in the first stage fo for the NSA core itself ,
D: and maybe possible extension from , for instance , if KPN say " yes , that 's great , "
D: " that 's the right direction .
D: We will support that . "
D: And if Siemens say " OK , great , we will support it " ,
D: and and what it D: mmm University of Berlin or something
D: and maybe University of Mannheim or Duisburg
D: or in Spain oder whatever .
D: So if we have all the similar project then you have only to take care about that 's a little bit aligned ,
D: that there 's some transparency concerning the results
D: and and the activities are literally going in the in the same um pace .
D: So that 's the basic idea .
D: But really it 's to to figure out certain kind of smaller activities where we can start it .
D: That 's the point .
D: And if we get some funding back ,
D: and we have certain potent uh potential partners in the boat ,
D: OK , we can go to a broader scope of this whole thing , yeah .
B: u
B: Let me let me propose a a a a reasoning way .
B: Uh let 's assume that we are successful with this proposal ,
B: so we get the funding to do whatever what we want to do .
B: So my question is , what we want to do is ?
B: Let 's assume that we have the funding .
B: What will be our first and or or and second steps ?
B: Ah , what kind of things uh we eh we will buy ,
B: what kind of things we will eh program or we will deploy ?
B: Because answering this these questions we can know much better what the application we want .
B: So let 's assume D: Yeah , but the problem is that f f f funding is the second step .
C: Mmm .
C: N
C: Well , I 'm not sure .
C: I I th I think I agree with him .
C: But uh right now we 're looking at b a th You want to do a big thing instead of a great thing .
D: Yeah .
C: So if you d assume that it should connect uh really good to Siemens and to uh KPN , and to the then it starts to get big we should all go to the in the same direction .
C: If you already assume " well , OK , they paid money " , and now you think , OK , what what great thing you want to do , then it gives you more freedom to think about this great thing you want to m do .
D: Yeah , but we have no eh current no public funding ,
C: No .
D: OK , everybody 's paid here .
B: Yeah .
A: Yeah , but but C: But you but you don't get one if you if you try to to align KPN with Siemens , for instance .
G: Yeah .
A: Yeah .
A: But D: Yeah .
D: Yeah .
A: But for theoretical or for historical reasons a really good question , " if we would have the money what would we do with that ? "
C: Uh .
A: So if we don't know what we would like to do with the money , we probably wouldn't get any money to do what we don't know .
D: Mm - hmm .
D: That 's right .
B: Absolutely .
D: That 's right .
D: Yeah .
D: Yeah .
A: So that 's why , I think , yeah , it 's a good question .
D: Yeah .
D: Now , that 's the point why I am focussing on more on the A: Yep .
D: Yeah .
D: I want to have really the activities
D: you know , what is really the outcome
D: what is really the problem we are going to solve .
D: These are my questions .
D: And if we have identified this block then it is possible to raise some money .
D: Yeah .
A: That 's just the same question just other way around .
B: Let let me put an example .
B: You know I Some days ago , I bought , like some of you , this kind of things .
B: This is a PDA
B: eh three com uh Palm Pilot compatible ,
A: Modernistic stuff !
B: nothing nothing that great ,
A: Completely useless !
B: but it has some some possibility of being expanded .
B: But the point is eh , the only in here The only thing wireless thing I can put on on this is just uh this Omnisky modem ,
B: which is uh , I think it is a subscription - based uh thing .
B: You have to pay every every month ,
B: and eh of course , I cannot imagine that uh tomorrow I 'll be able to buy a different thing with four different networks ,
B: four different providers on it .
B: Maybe I 'm wrong
B: but
B: if I have the funding I say " OK , well , I can buy this or even I can buy a mobile computer ,
B: a notebook " .
B: OK ?
B: A lot more expensive ,
B: but that 's OK ,
B: I have the funding
B: Then I can add a couple of cards at most ,
B: because mmm the majority of the of the notebooks only have two PC cards uh type two slots .
B: So
B: In in the better case , maybe I 'm only able to add two different networks to this thing .
B: So ah
B: the difficulty I see is that ah if we are if you want to think in in two three four different technologies um , maybe we are uh too advanced too , um , let 's say , uh too in advance for the current technology .
B: Which is not bad ,
B: but uh , I 'm just saying that it will be able It will B: Sorry .
B: It will be difficult for us to develop a a reasonable test bed with the available technology .
B: If somebody tell us , " OK , now here you have the thing , and just put these four networks you want on the thing . " How can I do it now ?
B: So mmm
B: I 'm still trying to you know , to get used to the uh all the ideas
B: and to see that all the things are really connecting
B: because this the eh most difficult thing I see to to to get this alignment to this connection point among the different things we are trying to align .
B: So that 's why I was proposing this this question .
B: Let 's assume we have the funding .
B: Now let 's proceed .
B: What what kind of things we can buy , we can put together , we can program .
B: Because oh at the end uh somebody will uh be asking us " OK , did you do your homework ?
B: Did you do what you B: So .
D: It 's clear .
D: Now from my point of view in the beginning , one more time , if I see the four building blocks , and eh I could speak only for my skills , I believe to derive a certain kind of QS Reservation - in - Advance scheme Much more uh general as it is done for for USAIA ,
B: Mm - hmm .
D: but mapped then really to desired network subnet layer technologies .
B: But for different networks ?
D: Yes .
B: The point is for
D: For D: No , for y UMTS .
D: But first of all , a generic system ,
D: but because you can have several mechanism
D: really using certain kind of of um um quantitative description ,
D: you can have more of a qualitative description ,
D: you can have taken into account moving patterns ,
D: and and and whatever kind of things ,
D: but there are a lot of lot of ways to have certain kind of QS Reservation - in - Advance ,
D: and I see it as definitely is necessary to have this one
D: if I want be mobile and I want to have not a interruption of my in my application qualities of service .
B: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
D: So .
D: Um
D: But then , to go , for instance , to UMTS , and figure out what is available within UMTS .