A: Hmm .
H: and then we talked about that ,
H: and so - and - so talked about "
H: And then you 'd have , like H: I e My thought was to have multiple people summarize it , on recording rather than writing
H: because writing takes time
H: and you get irrelevant other things that u take time , that A: Mm - hmm .
H: Whereas if you just say it immediately after the meeting ,
H: you know , a two - minute summary of what the meeting was about , I think you would get ,
H: uh , with mult
H: See , I I also worry about having a single note - taker
H: because that 's just one person 's perception .
H: And , um ,
H: you know , it it 's releva it 's relative to what you 're focus was on that meeting ,
D: Mm - hmm .
H: and and people have different <comment> major topics that they 're interested in .
D: A
H: So , my proposal would be that it may be worth considering both of those types , you know , the note - taking and a spontaneous oral summary afterwards ,
A: OK .
E: Yeah .
H: no longer than two minutes ,
D: Adam , you can H: from multiple people .
H: Yeah .
D: you can correct me on this ,
D: but but , uh , my impression was that , uh , pretty much , uh , true that the meetings here , nobody sits with a w uh , with a laptop
G: Never .
D: and G: Never . I 've never seen it at ICSI .
G: Does anyone ?
G: I mean , Dan is the one who who most frequently would take notes ,
D: I
B: Dan ?
E: Yeah .
G: and E: I 've d When we when we have other meetings .
E: When I have meetings on the European projects , we have someone taking notes .
G: Oh , really ?
E: In fact , I often do it .
D: Yeah , but those are bigger deal things .
D: Right ?
E: Yeah .
D: Where you 've got fifteen peo
D: I mean , most D: th this is one of the larger meetings .
D: Most of the meetings we have are four or five people
G: That 's true are four or five people .
D: and you 're not you don't have somebody sitting and taking minutes for it .
A: Yeah .
D: You just get together and talk about where you are .
A: Right .
A: So , I think it depends on whether it 's a business meeting or a technical discussion .
G: Culture .
D: Yeah .
D: Yeah .
A: And I agree ,
A: technical discussions you don't usually have somebody taking notes .
D: Yeah .
G: The IRAM meeting , they they take notes every D: Yeah .
D: Do they ?
G: There 's uh a person with a laptop at each meeting .
E: How many people are those meetings ?
G: There are more .
G: I mean , there are ten - ish .
E: Yeah .
D: Yeah .
B: Y you should also have a record of what 's on the board .
G: They 're very sparse .
B: I mean , I find it very hard to reconstruct what 's going on .
B: I I don't know how G: Yeah . This is something early in the project we talked a lot about .
B: I don't know how ,
B: but for instance , I mean , the outline is sort of up here
B: and that 's what people are seeing .
B: And if you have a B: Or you shou could tell people not to to use the boards .
B: But there 's sort of this missing information otherwise .
H: I agree .
E: We sh we should G: I agree , but but you you just you g end up with video ,
E: Well , I don't know .
G: and and instrumented rooms .
G: And that 's a different project , I think .
E: f u
E: I think for this data capture , it would be nice to have a digital camera
G: Yeah , different B: Uh , y
E: just to take pictures of who 's there ,
E: where the microphones are ,
E: and then we could also put in what 's on the board .
E: You know , like three or four snaps for every B: Right .
H: I agree .
B: Yeah .
H: That 's wonderful .
E: for every meeting .
B: People who were never at the meeting will have a very hard time understanding it otherwise .
C: Mm - hmm .
G: But don't you think that 's H: I agree .
G: Don't you think that But C: Mm - hmm .
E: Well , no . I mean , I I just think I mean , I think that right now we don't make a record of where people are sitting on the tables .
B: Even people who were at the meeting .
A: Right .
G: Huh .
G: Right .
E: And that the at some point that might be awfully useful .
G: But I think adding photographs adds a whole nother level of problems .
H: Mm - hmm .
A: Mmm .
E: Yeah .
E: We
H: It 's just a digital record .
E: n uh ,
E: Not not as part of the not as a part of the data that you have to recover .
B: I don't mean that you model it .
E: Just just in terms of B: We should just B: Like archiving it or storing it .
E: Yeah .
H: Yes , I agree .
H: I agree .
H: It 's i because discourse is about things ,
A: Mm - hmm .
B: Because someone H: and then you have the things that are about , and it 's recoverable .
B: someone later might be able to take these and say " OK , they , you know at least these are the people who were there
E: So B: and here 's sort of what they started talking about ,
B: and "
B: and just H: Yes .
H: And it 's so simple .
H: Like you said , three snapshots
D: Li
D: uh , L L
H: and D: L
D: Liz , you H: Just to archive .
D: u uh , Liz , you sa you sat in on the , uh , subcommittee meeting or whatever E: Actually D: uh , on you on the subcommittee meeting for for at the , uh that workshop we were at that , uh , uh , Mark Liberman was was having .
D: So I I wasn't there .
D: They they they they h must have had some discussion about video and the visual aspect , and all that .
B: Big , big interest .
D: Yeah .
B: Huge .
B: I mean , it personally , I don't I would never want to deal with it .
B: But I 'm just saying first of all there 's a whole bunch of fusion issues that DARPA 's interested in .
D: Yeah .
D: Yeah .
B: You know , fusing gesture and face recognition ,
D: Yeah .
B: even lip movement and things like that ,
B: for this kind of task .
B: And there 's also I think a personal interest on the part of Mark Liberman in this kind of in storing these images in any data we collect
D: Mm - hmm .
B: so that later we can do other things with it .
D: Yeah .
D: So so to address what what Adam 's saying ,
H: Mmm .
H: Mm - hmm .
D: I mean , I think you uh , that
B: And D: the key thing there is that this is a description of database collection effort that they 're talking about doing .
G: Mm - hmm .
D: And if the database exists and includes some visual information that doesn't mean that an individual researcher is going to make any use of it .
D: Right ?
H: Mm - hmm .
D: So , uh G: But that it 's gonna be a lot of effort on our part to create it , and store it ,
G: and get all the standards , and to do anything with it .
D: Right .
D: So we 're gonna D: So we 're gonna do what we 're gonna do ,
D: whatever 's reasonable for us .
G: Yeah .
B: I think even doing something very crude D: But having B: Like I know with ATIS , we just had a tape recorder running all the time .
G: Mm - hmm .
B: And later on it turned out it was really good that you had a tape recorder of what was happening ,
B: even though you w you just got the speech from the machine .
B: So if you can find some really , you know , low , uh , perplexity ,
G: Low fidelity .
G: Yeah .
B: yeah , <comment> way of of doing that , I think it would be worthwhile .
H: I agree .
H: And if it 's simple as I mean , as simple as just the digital B: Otherwise you 'd you lose it .
H: Yeah .
D: Well , minimally , I mean , what what Dan is referring to at least having some representation of the p the spatial position of the people ,
D: cuz we are interested in some spatial processing .
H: Mm - hmm .
D: And so G: Right .
A: Mm - hmm .
D: so , um G: Well , once the room is a little more fixed that 's a little easier
D: Yeah .
G: cuz you 'll G: Well , the wireless .
D: Yeah .
D: Yeah .
G: But B: Also CMU has been doing this
B: and they were the most vocal at this meeting ,
B: Alex Waibel 's group .
B: And they have said , I talked to the student who had done this , <comment> that with two fairly inexpensive cameras they they just recorded all the time
D: Mm - hmm .
B: and were able to get all the information from or maybe it was three from all the parts of the room .
B: So I think we would be we might lose the chance to use this data for somebody later who wants to do some kind of processing on it if we don't collect it <comment> at all .
G: Yeah .
G: I I I don't disagree .
G: I think that if you have that , then people who are interested in vision can use this database . The problem with it is you 'll have more people who don't want to be filmed than who don't want to be recorded .
H: Well , she 's not making G: So that there 's going to be another group of people who are gonna say " I won't participate " .
C: Mmm .
C: That 's true .
A: Mm - hmm .
B: Or you could put a paper bag over everybody 's head
G: Um B: and not look at each other
B: and not look at boards ,
B: and just all be sitting talking .
D: Uh - huh .
H: Well B: That would be an interes Bu
H: Well , there 's that 'd be the the parallel , yeah .
D: Great idea .
H: But I think y she 's we 're just proposing a minimal preservation of things on boards ,
B: Yeah . I definitely won't participate if there 's a camera .
H: sp spatial organization H: And you could anonymize the faces for that matter .
H: You know , I mean , this is H: We can talk about the G: But , you know , that 's a lot of infrastructure and work .
H: It 's just one snapshot .
G: To set it up and then anonymize it ?
B: No , it wa n not , um H: We 're not talking about a movie .
A: No , no , no , no .
H: We 're talking about a snapshot .
B: Not for not for CMU .
A: So G: Mm - hmm .
B: They have a pretty crude set - up .
H: Yeah .
G: Mm - hmm .
B: And they had B: they just turn on these cameras .
B: They were they were not moving or anything .
G: Couldn't find it ?
B: And stored it on analog media .
G: Hmm ?
H: Hmm .
B: And they they didn't actually align it or anything .
B: They just they have it , though .
H: Yeah .
H: Well , it 's worth considering .
H: Maybe we don't want to spend that much more time discussing it ,
F: Did they store it digitally ,
H: but F: or ?
B: Hmm - mm .
B: I think they just F: or just put it on videotape ?
B: I think they just had the videotapes with a c you know , a counter or something .
B: Um ,
D: Mm - hmm .
D: Well , I think for I mean , for our purposes we probably will d
B: I 'm not sure .
D: we we might try that some
D: and and we certainly already have some recordings that don't have that ,
D: uh , which , you know , we we 'll we 'll get other value out of , I think .
H: Yeah .
B: Yeah .
H: Th
H: The thing is , if it 's easy to collect it it th then I think it 's a wise thing to do
H: because once it 's gone it 's gone .
H: And B: I 'm just The community B: If LDC collects this data u I mean , and L - if Mark Liberman is a strong proponent of how they collect it and what they collect , there will probably be some video data in there .
D: There you go .
B: And so that could argue for us not doing it
B: or it could argue for us doing it .
B: The only place where it sort of overlaps is when some of the summarization issues are actually could be , um , easier made easier if you had the video .
H: Mm - hmm .
D: I think at the moment we should be determining this on the basis of our own , uh , interests and needs rather than hypothetical ones from a community thing .
D: As you say , if they  if they decide it 's really critical then they will collect a lot more data than we can afford to ,
D: uh , and and will include all that .
B: Mmm .
D: Um ,
D: I I I 'm not worried about the cost of setting it up .
A: e
D: I 'm worried about the cost of people looking at it .
D: In other words , it 's it it 'd be kind of silly to collect it all and not look at it at all .
D: And so I I I think that we do have to do some picking and choosing of the stuff that we 're doing .
D: But I I am int I do think that we m minimally want something we might want to look at at some some , uh , subsets of that .
D: Like for a meeting like this , at least , uh , take a Polaroid of the  of the of the boards ,
B: Of the board .
H: Yeah .
B: Or at least make sure that the note - taker takes a sh you know , a snapshot of the board .
H: Exactly .
D: and D: a
D: and know the position of the people B: That 'll make it a lot easier for meetings that are structured .
H: Exactly .
A: Mm - hmm .
B: I mean , otherwise later on if nobody wrote this stuff on the board down we 'd have a harder time summarizing it or agreeing on a summary .
H: We And it H: Especially since this is common knowledge .
H: I mean , this is shared knowledge among all the participants ,
H: and it 's a shame to keep it off the recording .
H: s
G: Uh , except in G: er , if we weren't recording this , this this would get lost . Right ?
H: Well , I don't understand that point .
D: Yeah .
H: I mean , I just think that the G: The point is that we 're not saving it anyway .
G: Right ?
H: Well G: In in our real - life setting .
A: What do you mean we 're not saving it anyway ?
A: I 've written all of this down and it 's getting emailed to you .
C: And you 're gonna send it out by email , too .
G: Well , uh , in that case we don't need to take pictures of it .
B: Right . That would be the other alternative , to make sure that anything that was on the board , um , is in the record .
A: Yeah .
C: Yeah .
H: Well A: Well , that 's why that 's why I 'm saying that I think the note - taking would be A: I think in many for many meetings there will be some sort of note - taking ,
A: in which case , that 's a useful thing to have A: Uh , I mean , we uh , we don't need to require it .
G: Mm - hmm .
A: Just like the A: I mean , I think it would be great if we try to get a picture with every meeting .
A: Um ,
H: I agree .
A: so so we won't worry about requiring these things ,
A: but the more things that we can get it for , the more useful it will be for various applications .
D: So A: So .
D: So , I mean , departing for the moment from the data collection question but actually talking about , you know , this group and what we actually want to do ,
D: uh , so I guess that 's th the way what you were figuring on doing was was was , uh , putting together some notes and sending them to to everybody
D: from from today ?
D: OK .
D: So .
D: Um H: That 's great .
D: So  so the question <comment> that that we started with was whether there was anything else we should do during during th during the collection .
B: Ow .
D: And I guess the CrossPads was certainly one idea ,
D: uh , and we 'll get them from him and we 'll just do that .
D: Right ?
D: And then the next thing we talked about was the was the summaries
D: and are we gonna do anything about that .
A: Well , before we leave the CrossPads and and call it done .
D: Oh , OK .
A: So , if I 'm collecting data then there is this question of do I use CrossPads ?
D: Yeah .
A: So , I think that if we really seriously have me collect data and I can't use CrossPads , it 's probably less useful for you guys to go to the trouble of using it ,
A: um , unless you think that the CrossPads are gonna A: n
A: I 'm not I 'm not sure what they 're gonna do .
A: But but having a small percentage of the data with it ,
A: I 'm not sure whether that 's useful or not .
D: What A: Maybe maybe it 's no big deal .
A: Maybe we just do it and see what happens .
D: I guess the point was to try again , to try to collect more information that could be useful later for for the UI stuff .
A: Mm - hmm .
D: So it 's sort of Landay supplying it
D: so that Landay 's stuff can be easier to do .
A: Right .
D: So it it Right now he 's g operating from zero ,
A: Nothing .
D: and so even if we didn't get it done from UW , it seems like that would could still You shou
A: OK .
D: I mean , at least try it .
B: I think it 'd be useful to have a small amount of it just as a proof of concept .
D: Yeah .
B: It will A: Right .
G: And and they seem to not be able to give enough of them away ,
B: You know , what you can do with things .
A: OK .
G: so we could probably get more as well .
B: Yeah . But not not to rely on them for basic modeling .
A: That 's true .
A: So if it if it seems to be really useful to you guys , we could probably get a donation to me .
G: Yeah , I 'm not sure .
G: I think it it it will again depend on Landay ,
G: and if he has a student who 's interested ,
G: and how much infrastructure we 'll need .
G: I mean , if it 's easy , we can just do it .
D: Yeah .
G: Um , but if it requires a lot of our time , we probably won't do it .
A: Right .
D: I guess a lot of the stuff we 're doing now really is pilot
D: in one sense or another .
G: Yeah . Yeah , we have to sort of figure out what we 're gonna do .
D: And so we try it out and see how it works .
G: Right .
A: Yeah .
B: I just wouldn't base any of the modeling on having those .
G: Right . I ag I think I agree with that .
A: Right .
B: Yeah .
B: It 's just A: Right .
A: OK .
G: I think , though , the importance marking is a good idea , though .