Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. So, in your view, though, what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision?
Nick Williams: Capacity—
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What? Sorry, I missed that.
Nick Williams: Sorry. Capacity: we just haven't got enough spaces in some cases, some year groups and so on. Obviously, given what I've said as well, and I'm sure it'd be the same for all local authorities, we've got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision, if you like, the home school. So, there might be a time period when the learners are on a part-time timetable, which isn't ideal, I accept, but again, it's working with the families and the youngsters. Also, for us as well we've reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion. We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners. Sometimes, it works really well; sometimes, the learner turns around and says, 'Actually, I preferred it in my old school.' So, there's a cooling-off period as well. I think the learner voice is very important there, because—. We've got to have a package, I think, that is quite wide in its offer.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. What would be the advantages or disadvantages, then, of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers, and for EOTAS providers to have approved status?
Nick Williams: Obviously, we do do that, but we're struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding. However, we don't want to make it too difficult, so that we haven't got any providers coming forward either. So, it's a little bit of a balancing act. But, first and foremost, safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking. But I think, then, we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have. At the moment, that is a struggle for us, because we're managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is—. But, to actually offer some additional training is a challenge.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay, thank you. To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools, whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site?
Nick Williams: I can only speak for Swansea. We know, as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in, they have to put down where that provision is. And obviously, as part of the visits, as well, to the schools by the challenge advisers, the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS? Independent.
Nick Williams: The schools would have to make sure that—
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But is that happening, do you know?
Nick Williams: Yes, because schools do take safeguarding very, very seriously. They see the importance of it. It's their prime driver in many ways.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring, monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools?
Nick Williams: Yes, but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use, in our experience. So, if it's MTP or something through the college, like a mechanics course or something like that, we're probably using it ourselves. So, it is quality assured, if you like, by two sides.
Sharon Davies: In Torfaen, our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision. So, you've got senior leaders there who attend those meetings. The meetings are facilitated and they're currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because, sometimes, it's worked in the past, but what they're seeing now is that it's not quite working now, and it's understanding why. Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more? So, it's looking as well at, coming back to that curriculum offer, is it the right curriculum offer for those learners? And the training of the staff, do we have the right staff? It's capacity, then. It's just quality assuring the provision. Just because it's worked in the past—it's about keeping that momentum going.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition?
Sharon Davies: Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual, I would assume that means.
Sharon Davies: Okay.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I wouldn't like to think anyone was falling through—
Lynne Neagle AM: I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition, yes.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes. Individual tuition in terms of we wouldn't want any child, if they're away from a main-school setting, to slip through the net in terms of tuition, or safeguarding even.
Sharon Davies: I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is, as a local authority, we're restricted on how much access we get into the home.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Well, I appreciate that, and that's the—[Inaudible.]
Sharon Davies: Therefore, it's really difficult then to quality assure, because unless the families invite us in there's very little—. We are restricted in that respect.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about if they're in a private setting?
Nick Williams: If they're following a restricted timetable or whatever, because maybe they're school anxious and so on, and we're trying to get them into our provision like that, the home-tuition staff work for us. We don't use agency staff, for instance, to go in and provide a few hours of provision, or to go to the local library. So, for whatever reason their needs at the moment can't be met in a school or in approved provision, then the staff who do provide some education, or if it's for medical reasons, they work for us in the local authority. So, we're not using—
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Is that widespread around Wales?
Nick Williams: I don't really know the answer to that, I'm sorry. I can only speak for Swansea.
Sharon Davies: We're very similar to that.
David Hopkins: Historically, there has been a general pattern, and if you're making a provision you will quality assure it, clearly. I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Absolutely, yes.
David Hopkins: And that's more difficult to answer, I suspect.
Lynne Neagle AM: What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority, but I think Nick has answered that now, really, if that's a consistent answer for local authorities. Can I just ask, before we move on, in the WLGA paper, you say you're concerned about the 'potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of data/funding/joint working'. Can you expand on those concerns for the committee?
Nick Williams: I think it's, you know—
Lynne Neagle AM: It was the WLGA paper, actually.
David Hopkins: It was a joint paper. You go on.
Nick Williams: It's about getting that money following the learner and so on, and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep, because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that's the aim of any provision that we put in. It's not permanent—except, for certain learners, that might be the case—so they're still, if you like, part and parcel of the school. I think one of your other colleagues asked about the off-rolling, if you like—another term that's used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they don't count in schools' data. We're trying to very much move away from that, through the messages that we all give our schools. The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff. So: 'They're our learners. They're the most vulnerable learners we've got.' And for the individuals, for the families, and for society, if we can't support these learners—we know the links then to crime, and the cost to us as a society as well. So, it's in all our interests to do the very best for these learners.

Summary: One of the advantages was that youngsters' voice could be heard in time if they showed the willingness to go back into school; the framework offered the excluded learners a cooling-off period. The disadvantage was mainly some individual schools' lack of capacity to organize and offer additional training. Monitor and evaluation systems of the EOTAS provision were supposed to be set up to ensure the education quality.