Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. I've just got one question for Mr Ed Evans, if that's okay. You explained earlier that if people knew what the bac was about in your sector, they'd value it more greatly, which I accept. Are you worried at all, though, that some of the more able and talented STEM students, in particular—who are needed in your sector, after all—might be deterred from doing those four A-levels because of the bac, because, presumably, you need a mix of these talents? You talked about the more able and talented vocational learners, but also you have more able and talented academic learners—presumably you need them all.
Ed Evans: We do. There's a big range, and some really high achievers coming into the sector as well. So, it is about that mix. I think the discussion that I've had with our employers has been around the academic side of things, if you like. The qualifications are well catered for. So, it's almost a given somebody's been through that route. What isn't there is some of those softer skills, but also some—. I was almost going to call commercial skills 'soft' there—.
Suzy Davies AM: Call them 'commercial'.
Ed Evans: Commercial skills are hard skills, which are very, very difficult to come by. So, the Welsh bac starts to do some of those things at different levels. Again, I'll come back to the input of businesses to support that delivery of commercial skills and so on, but I think I probably made that point earlier. So, I don't think it is a case of squeezing things out. There's clearly going to be different individuals who will cope better, and they will be, I guess, maybe guided as well by parents to a certain degree in terms of, 'You do those four and forget about that nonsense there', which is not helpful, but I can understand why that happens. So, for me, now, it's not a case of squeezing—. This should be seen as an important part of creating a rounded individual ready for employment. I guess that's what a lot of our employers saw the Welsh bac as being able to do. Whether that's a shared view is another matter.
Suzy Davies AM: That's great. Thank you.
Nick Brazil: Can I just add something to that? I think Ed's just said about the softer skills. Do the softer skills have to be developed through qualification? I think Kay mentioned a programme earlier on within her college. We run programmes as well. They're not qualifications, but they offer the opportunity to develop those softer skills. So, I think we're all in agreement about the development of the skills, but does it need to be through a qualification?
Lynne Neagle AM: And you've said that you make the decision in the best interests of the learner. Are you aware, then, of any young people who are coming to you from the Swansea area because they've got that flexibility, which they may not have in one of the local schools?
Nick Brazil: As I said, in terms of our offer, we offer a range in the curriculum. We're not going out there saying, 'Come to us for this particular reason.'
Lynne Neagle AM: No, but does anybody come to you and say, 'Well, actually, I've really come here because I don't have to do the Welsh bac'?
Nick Brazil: The honest answer is it's one of the first questions that people always ask. But, as I've said, as a parent, I've been to open evenings and other open evenings. It's generally a question that people ask, 'Do I have to do the Welsh bac?' It does come across not just in our open evenings, but in other open evenings that I've been to. It is always a question that people ask me. They do want to know that, and it's usually, as I said, one of the first questions that they ask.
Sian Gwenllian AM: And is that the parents asking the question or the pupil?
Nick Brazil: It's a combination. But, honest answer, I would say parents, a lot of the time, but the learners usually—as I said—have sometimes had not the best experience pre 16 and that's why they ask the question straight away.
Sian Gwenllian AM: Can I suggest that maybe, then, the perception that parents have is steering the way rather than the actual benefits for the pupil in your institution? If you're telling them, 'Come to us, you don't have to actually do it because we know you don't like it', is that the correct way of approaching education?
Nick Brazil: No. Education is about offering the range and offering it correctly.
Sian Gwenllian AM: I'm being devil's advocate.
Nick Brazil: Yes, I know, I totally understand, but it's about offering the full range of qualification opportunities for learners. If you don't offer the full range, which, sometimes—if you, obviously, limit and you make qualifications compulsory, that can limit the choice of opportunities as well. So, I think what parents and learners are looking for is for the range of options. There are some places in, I would think, some sixth forms now, where certain qualifications may not be offered now because of the need to pick up an extra—Welsh bac. So, for example, modern foreign languages is reducing quite dramatically in Wales, and, I think, I picked up today a few schools had been saying that one of the reasons is, 'We have to put our focus on the Welsh bac to ensure that is achieved rather than giving the opportunity to do the modern foreign language.'
Sian Gwenllian AM: But it could be a short-sighted view because what some young people tell us is that at the time—and parents—they didn't really appreciate what skills they were actually learning, and by the time they'd got into employment, that working as a team, the communication skills, they thought, 'Ah, we did—. I know what this is about', and it all makes sense at that point. So, to try and, sort of, discourage it at a younger age may be doing them a disservice in the long run.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Well, we'll move on now then to—.
Sian Gwenllian AM: That's a question.
Lynne Neagle AM: You do want an answer. Anybody want to pick that up?
Dafydd Evans: We certainly have experience of that, of young people coming in with quite a negative attitude, originally, to the Welsh bac and taking it on board. But where we are delivering it well, well contextualised, they've really enjoyed the experience, and very much valued the experience. So, yes, there are certainly instances of that happening, there's no doubt.
Ed Evans: We certainly see it, as employers. The penny drops after a few weeks or months.
Dafydd Evans: But don't underestimate the fact that if you had a poor experience of the Welsh bac at school, that perception is very difficult for us, as institutions, then, to change. Very difficult.
Dr Rachel Bowen: It does make it into quite an intensive selling process for colleges when they've got to overcome that negative perception. As people have said already, it is possible to talk parents and learners round, but then that's time spent having to do that selling job when we should be talking about other things.
Kay Martin: Can I just mention as well that there's a bigger job in helping parents to understand that the only qualifications in the world are not A-levels? Perhaps you might want to do an engineering BTEC programme, or you might want to do a health and social care, or you might want to do hospitality. You might want to do BTEC programmes, you can still go to university if that's what you want to do, or you can go into an apprenticeship afterwards, and selling that whole range to parents, because there is an overemphasis, by us all, on A-levels—.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden.