B: It is the proxy , the one that does the work .
C: Yeah .
B: OK ,
B: so you can even , for example , use B: It 's the same ?
D: Ah we just discussed a lot about proxies .
B: Oh , OK .
D: That 's a fun
C: I like them
C: so
B: OK ,
B: I B: It is just that that well , maybe we can we can take a look at oh maybe a more in - depth look at this project
B: just to see if we are doing the same , or if we are doing something similar .
B: It would be important for us to to highlight the differences .
C: Yeah .
B: Because if not , well , they can say , " Oh , you are doing the same thing . "
B: " This was done now . "
C: Or maybe talk to them about s operations they thought of but didn't touch yet .
B: Yeah , well we are close .
D: Mm - hmm .
D: Uh maybe a few comments .
D: First of all , Um . Do you mind Mi - Miguel , to write the name of the project on the whiteboard ?
B: Yeah .
B: No problem .
D: So that everybody D: Uh I I will send also the pointer which Miguel sent to me , to everybody so that everybody can take a look to this uh , project .
C: I was D: And uh I don't know what avail information is available
D: because I didn't find the time currently to check it out .
E: It 's a project of the UC .
D: But first of B: Yeah ,
E: Oh , yeah .
B: UC Ber - uh Berkeley ,
D: Yeah .
C: Wh - when did you go through this ?
B: yeah .
B: I 'll I you uh I seen uh uh reports from nineteen ninety uh ninety - six , ninety - seven and ninety - eight .
C: Cuz yesterday I was uh Well coincidentally , I b bumped into this project here .
B: Maybe the project B: n uh
C: It 's funny .
D: Uh , sorry ?
D: Uh do C: Yeah , yesterday I was just surfing a little bit .
D: Mm - hmm .
D: Ah !
C: And then from Nokia I came to this that project ,
D: Ah !
D: OK ,
D: I see .
C: so .
D: Yeah ? @ @
C: Nokia research .
B: I think that that the leader was uh Professor Katz .
C: And then D: OK .
C: That 's right .
C: And he 's also board in Nokia research ,
B: OK .
C: so
D: Mm - hmm .
D: Then the second thing is that uh Daimler - Chrysler research here in Palo Alto as well as in Germany , Ulm , is doing , in principle , the same with a car .
B: Mm - hmm .
D: They have a specific antenna for uh GSM Oh , GPS and and fu for future extended G - uh GSM networks and wireless LAN and and other thi and other network technology .
D: In the roof of the car . They have a s lot of servers
D: in the trunk of the car . Then they collect data how it is with handoff and all these kind of things
D: and they are driving around the different areas .
D: And the same car exists here in Palo Alto uh based on wireless LAN , GSM and 2 x Ricochet networks .
B: Mm - hmm .
D: They collect the dat collect collecting a lot of data . concerning the seamless handoffs and whether it works very well with speed
D: and um
D: uh , Thomas is going to build mobile IP stuff in their servers .
D: uh
D: because they want to
D: use current technology with a c a combination of mobile IP . So I think there is a lot of activities in the area .
D: Uh .
D: And my third uh comment is uh if we are going something in that direction that is quite different from this thing here .
D: But , anyway , maybe as a core technology with a real product in mind .
D: I see some difficulty because nobody currently has here certain kind uh of UMTS know how .
B: Mm - hmm .
D: And you need it definitely
D: because then it j must be your uh Bible I would like to say that you are very familiar with UMTS if you wanna go in in that way .
D: And As far as I know the UMTS standardization is not finished yet .
D: Ninety percent , maybe , or eighty percent .
D: I kno I 'm not sure .
D: But uh
B: Yeah
B: b le let me let me ask you a question about eh UMTS or or third or possible fourth generation communic wireless communication systems .
D: that D: Yeah .
B: Uh , from the point of view of the user , uh is there uh something more that nnn , that than more speed ?
B: Is there any other advantage , from the point of view of the user or of of the terminals ?
D: Users of of UMTS ?
B: Yeah .
D: You can request certain kind of QS .
D: You can even request it in GPS
D: but it 's not end - to - end quality of service .
B: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
D: It is only um what the gateways get .
B: OK .
B: Yeah .
D: And within the core network there are certain kind of tunnels set up in the core network itself of the access provider ,
D: not the internet backbone core .
D: And you use certain kind of tunnel mechanism to combine , in principle , the base station cluster control .
D: But this is uh is controlled by a certain kind of node .
B: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
D: And you have the gateway to the PDN , or the Public Data Network .
D: And between both there 's a certain kind of tunnel set up .
B: But in fact B: But in fact now , at the GSM level , what you have is that every voice channel you use provides a a p a pretty fine fixed uh data speed .
B: So , we can say that every voice channel has an i an incr uh implied um quality of service ,
B: which is nnn ninety six hundred bits per second .
B: Full duplex .
D: You mean now for GSM , @ @ ,
B: Doesn't it ?
D: or ?
B: Yeah .
D: Yeah .
D: Yeah .
B: So .
D: Yeah , what is what means quality of service .
D: A certain degree .
D: Right ?
B: Yeah .
D: Uh .
D: Sometimes we have some B: No , but um but not only because of of data speed ,
B: but also about delay ,
B: you know ,
B: because GSM networks were developed to y uh with a voice service in mind .
B: Ah , delay is also considered in these networks .
B: So ,
B: uh , in fact for every voice channel you have uh a pretty fine maximum uh delay and jitter , and a a a specified um data speed .
B: So you can scale up scale up this uh this um thing by using several channels .
B: So , in fact , you have , using just GSM technology , you have more or less the same building blocks as you can get uh with the UMTS .
B: I mean that one thing is that the technology is a little bit different ,
B: that uh the base station thing is different
B: and maybe uh the the internal routing uh inside the network is different
B: but from the point of view of the mobile things uh I 'm not sure if if D: It 's packaged data oriented .
D: It 's not really circuit - switched .
D: In UMTS you have always GPS as a a involvement in the core network .
D: You have , in principle , the path which still is available for for the GSM network .
D: Also they use , in principle , the same uh the same mechanism .
B: Mm - hmm .
D: But you also have a dat uh packet oriented communication that 's on the GPS stuff .
D: And that 's also related to UMTS .
B: Yeah , but The You know , it is also being d uh developed , this G uh P - DPRS thing , GPRS thing .
D: So ,
D: that is B: which is uh pack uh packet data over GSM .
B: So ,
B: I mean . Uh , I don't see that a a lot of difference .
B: We can expect a lot of differences f uh from the uh mobile terminal point of view . Uh , when uh UMTS be deployed .
B: What I 'm trying to say is that is that well , uh maybe uh it is not a big problem that any of us uh be uh um were um a UMTS expert
B: because uh I I don't see it I think that the UMTS thing is more a technology issue , than a research issue .
B: Maybe I 'm wrong .
B: Just es
B: um
D: No , I think there 's a lot B: explaining my m
D: Yeah . D: I think there 's a lot of research .
D: But the question is " is this uh a research wh in which direction we are going ? "
B: I mean to be done here ,
D: And because D: For inf
B: not not at the B: of course , you know , I 'm I I agree with you that there are a lot o of things to be developed
B: but But the point is that uh this is probably not here .
B: Because uh well , you know the the the orientation of our group which is uh " Networks Services and Applications " , not uh wireless technology or the underlying wireless technology .
E: You think more about hardware technology .
B: Yeah .
E: So , there is a lot of hardware to develop , but not B: You know , radio frequency technology ,
B: wide - band w uh CDMA .
B: These kind of things all have a lot of things to be to be uh researched .
B: But uh I don't think w this is not something we are doing here .
D: Right ,
D: but bear in mind the picture is a is a little bit different .
D: The picture I have in mind concerning UMTS is , first of all , if you use UMTS only for voice , Like you did it or are doing now for GSM , it 's not worth to have this kind of network .
D: And , currently in Europe , where it will be deployed first , I believe , it will be very hard , in principle , to get some money back if you have only for using it for voice .
B: Voice ,
B: yeah .
D: Because they paid a lot of money .
D: So .
D: What is the point ?
D: The point is that you use the UMTS to connect to the internet and have certain kind of services which are still not available up to now .
D: But the problem is if you have the internet content , and you have maybe your small uh um device of maybe only evolution based for for these uh new technologies , for for certain mobile phones , then you have certain kind of problems ,
B: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
D: you know ,
D: because you cannot use these things .
D: And WAP is not an answer for for these kind of things ,
D: you know .
D: So .
D: The I believe there is a lot of research work
D: and also if you see the end - to - end scope of the internet , from the mobile node up to the certain kind of server , " correspondent node " , or whatever you call this destination , then you have certain kind of models , for instance , for the quality of service and all these kind of things .
D: And then is UMTS only one link where you have certain kind of subnet layer technology .
D: And you have to match these things anyway .
D: It 's like a normal ethernet .
B: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
D: Whatever you see , it is only an additional subnet layer technology .
B: Yeah .
D: And you have all the things mapped to the uh to to the to the the internet stuff , in principle , to this technology .
D: And furthermore , you see that the trend is to put more IP technology , really , really IP technology , and not certain kind of modifications and adaptations , to their access network itself .
D: And
D: th there 's a lot of potential , as I believe , for for uh certain research work .
D: But the question is , first of all , " Do we have the competence to do something like that ? "
D: First of all .
D: Second , we are not hardware builders , in that sense to set up certain kind of end systems .
D: We can design them , yeah , from the protocol layering
D: and and maybe have some simulations , or whatever .
D: But isn't the final outcome really such a device ?
D: Prototype , Linux based .
D: And we go around here and we have maybe a GPS - base station sponsored by Ericsson ,
D: since they are living not so far away
D: and and maybe WaveLAN connection , here
D: now a testbed
D: and then then figure out that it works ?
D: So , that 's my point .
C: Well , just to make the list a little bit longer .
D: Yep .
C: May
C: Um , you could also think about uh session management .
C: I do along with uh the network applications and services , uh as you might know .
C: It 's a a
C: if you can do it in the end systems or at sp specific servers , then , I 'm in favor of that .
C: But se session management , I mean uh the authentication , if you go from one network to the other , it 's not solved .
C: uh ,
C: Nobody really wants a a guest on your network .
C: Unless you get some money through some way uh through some way .
C: Then , there is also the session management in the sense that a lot of these things at the Barwan project , as you said , go through proxies .
C: There might be kind of handoffs at uh at proxies ,
C: like the zip uh s zip proxy that we also discussed before a little bit .
C: That that 's als I think also in the line of uh session management .
C: Then there is this uh perfect thing uh the Berkeley sockets .
C: It 's almost perfect .
C: They s kind of skipped uh layer five , uh session management or session layer , I think .
C: That 's um normally with if you do a socket programming , it 's directly the prot application protocol on layer four , uh TCP socket , or layer five for UDP socket .
C: There might also be some research C: Well ,
C: could you introduce such a session management ,
C: or C: Norm - what they do right now is they make it part of the application - level protocol .
C: That 's what they do most often .
C: Like with session management ? for mobile the uh applications such as ist instant messaging or uh talks , and so on , uh like zip . It 's just doing a a reconnect .
C: If they think that the network is different or different capabilities come into play , they simply do a reconnect
C: so it 's part of the protocol .
C: That 's all what I think about session management ,
C: like part of in proxies or is it en embedded in application level protocols ?
D: But it 's really higher level .
D: Right ?
D: It 's no more related to a network .
C: I it 's D: We are leaving the network area .
D: That 's dangerous .
C: So how do you want to focus on network services .
D: Cuz if you go to the app
D: If you D: For me that 's starting with middleware aspects ,
D: you know ?
C: Well the
D: And C: So " network applications " , if you look at the name of the group , one thing is that um the they used to call a a n a " network " that was uh if it was like distributed between two systems connected by a network .
C: If you look at " network " from the OZ layer , then it 's uh , level two or something or maybe level three , but everything below three .
C: So there are , I think , two two different interpretations of uh " network " .
D: No , I believe " network " is , if you see it really from from the IP protocol suite , is then layer one , in principle , up t including layer four ,
D: despite the fact that layer four is only residing , normally , in the end system and in the gateways .
C: But are there " network applications " , then ?
D: Yeah .
C: So , the the name is " Network Services and Applications " ,
C: s so what could be an en example of a network application if you look at the OZ stick ?
D: Yeah , we have , I think , some .
D: Yeah .
D: Do you see this word " application " related to a network ?
D: Or do you see this word independently ?
D: That was never discussed in detail .
D: " Network Services and Applications " .
D: So , everything in the world .
C: OK .
D: Or is the application related to the network ?
D: For my understanding and as far as we discussed , so such a long time uh , these applications should D: For instance , e - commerce .
C: OK , OK , well , they will I didn't want to get a discussion now .
D: And it 's really , really
D: yeah
D: You know ?
D: That D: Yeah .
D: No no , uh that is a typical application , I think ,
D: which is , in principle , also a little bit related to uh to the network .
D: But not any application .
D: And we also have the aspects for security .
D: Miguel , you mentioned here authentication and and triple - A ,
D: but we do not have any expert anymore .
D: Because Hannes was an expert for that .
D: So the problem for me , it still exists that we have , in principle , here basic building blocks in the proposal from the networking side .
D: We could have a certain kind of application
D: and there 's a lot of activities in the outside world
D: and I believe there 's a lot of contacts .
D: Or there could be a lot of contacts uh with with these people .
D: Especially at uh Georgia Tech .
D: I know on next week on Tuesday .
D: Tuesday , right ?
D: We will go to UCB .
D: There are three guys .
D: Then Morgan mentioned one .
D: I do not know exactly um uh what he is doing ,
D: but , he 's also interesting in some kind of collaboration .
D: He 's also a professor in the UCB .
D: And uh many universities
D: maybe Claudia mentioned Duisburg .
D: And uh in principle , most of the university have some activities in that area .
D: We will not take care about these one ,
D: but we can use them as um for field ex uh field trial access
D: and and and maybe some support
D: and and whatever kind of thing .
D: And we focus really on the networking stuff
D: and going in more detail in this area .
D: And the alternative is maybe what uh
D: currently we have only uh this uh proposal from Wilbert to go more in the smaller scope .
D: Figure out some potential from maybe this uh WaveLAN UMTS stuff
D: and and starting from that .
D: Or , are there other suggestions ?
E: I think we uh have already so much work put into this proposal ,
E: why to switch now ?
E: So I don't see the reason for that .
E: Maybe the application we suggested is not the best one .
E: So we have to think about an application which which is um um , for mobile users , more relevant .
E: I don't know .
E: Maybe video games .
E: If you are traveling
E: uh , it 's boring to travel
E: and then you decide to play a g video game with somebody else who 's traveling .
D: Yeah , you know , it 's still mentioned in the proposal .
E: So .
D: And
D: th um
D: I I 'm sure , OK , that it is the wrong place to get the foundation why we are use this kind of application ,
D: but uh And In in the end of the text in the end of the pr text of the proposal .
D: But it is mentioned that it is only an example .
D: And that we use this application , in principle , while it is then very very easy to get a certain kind of access to these kind of things .
D: When you have a video game server and and you want to have mobile access you must at least have one in your consortium , or as a partner whatever , who provides this service .
D: And then we we are playing videos , in principle , if you have a field trial .
D: And that is , I think , much more harder than to have a certain kind of certain kind of access to the University ,
D: and uh to this server , which is run on the campus of the University .
E: OK , that 's right .
D: And that is the point .
D: You can have this f to figure out all the things
D: and the the um
D: and the the um
D: um , now , how to say , the requirements of this application using this classroom scenario .
D: But nevertheless , it 's not the best for
D: and and and and uh
D: s networking stuff .
D: You are right .
D: But it Does anybody see certain kind of potential here to go on ,
D: and to start the work maybe in this little bit smaller oh uh scope based on these building blocks ?
D: Because Multicast you still mentio uh you mentioned that there is no potential .
D: I think it 's described here that the potential , if you use it for the mapping to the next generation networks in the wireless access area they are still some potential to map Multicast
D: because they do not use it .
D: And to figure out whether they 're useful inse instead of using certain kind of tunneling mechanism and to set up these tunnels
D: and have the mapping between a PSDN uh telephone number or whatever kind of number they are using to IP addresses and then there 's the tunnel I Ds ,
D: and and all this kind of things , I think , is very beneficial as well for for telecommunication providers .
D: as well as for ISP 's .
D: I I think the potential is still there .
D: You you neglected that ,
D: but I don't think that you are right in that sense .
C: Well , think it works ,
C: but uh
C: yes , the mapping of course between multicasting and the UMTS or or whatever
D: In next generation ?
D: Yeah .
C: That 's or CDMA or whatever that 's uh , yeah , probably a thing that has to be find out .
D: Yeah .
C: I don't know what statuses .
C: Maybe they already did it par as part of UMTS ,
C: I 'm not sure .
C: I don't have a clue .
C: I I only know how it works on copper and like ethernet
C: and on PS PPP over something
C: and how it works like that ,
C: but on the wireless I 'm not sure .
D: Now what do you see about the
D: um , um ,
D: KPN interests ?
D: Because , I believe s if the argument changes as follows that you are here and that you are very familiar with uh the Multicast stuff , and KPN is very interesting in UMTS stuff , and this is one potential target network environment we are focusing on , but only for the uh IP - layer technology , then , why do the mapping of multica also potential mapping of Multicast , I think , must be of major interest for them .
D: Right ?
B: One question .
C: Yes , but if if it 's available
C: that means
C: so so if uh if it 's already part of the UMTS standardization then uh it 's immediately finished ,
C: like , OK , you can tell , KPN well go to Ericsson or Nokia and buy it ?