John Griffiths AM: Okay. Mark, I think you have some further questions on Schools Challenge Cymru.
Mark Reckless AM: Yes. Did you consider that the Schools Challenge Cymru programme was a success?
Meilyr Rowlands: It was certainly variable. It lasted for a relatively short period of time, so it's quite difficult to be definitive about the evaluation of it, but it was certainly variable. It varied from school to school. Some were very successful, some didn't make as much improvement. If it had lasted longer, maybe it would have made a difference. Overall, the data made—. There were improvements overall for the 40 schools over and above the general improvement that there was for all schools in Wales. So, you could say that it was successful in that respect. So, it's quite difficult to say whether it was successful, because that was a fairly limited improvement for quite a lot of money. It is, you know, quite a difficult judgment to say whether it was successful or not overall. What strikes one, I think, was the variability in the success of it, and I think that was clear also at an operational level. It was clearly more successful in certain areas where all the various people involved in the work worked together effectively. So, the challenge adviser and the local authority and the regional consortia were all working effectively together. And, in other cases, they weren't, and there had to be changes in personnel and that sort of thing. So, it was quite variable.
Mark Reckless AM: Of the five schools within the programme that Estyn actually inspected in the last year of the programme, I think that three of those were in special measures and two required significant improvement. Doesn't that suggest that, as far as Estyn engaged with the programme, your evidence was not to suggest that it was being successful?
Meilyr Rowlands: Not wildly successful, certainly, but many of these schools would have been in those sorts of categories in the past as well. So, it's not very surprising that many of them still remained. So, it wasn't a huge success, clearly. As you say, many of these schools are still struggling schools, so it hasn't been a panacea.
Mark Reckless AM: Bearing in mind your remarks earlier over the focus on key stage 4, in particular the C to D grade boundary, what sort of minimum length of time should a programme like this run for if we are to expect success?
Meilyr Rowlands: That's a hugely difficult question to answer, and it is at the core of whether this initiative was successful. There has been research, and people have looked at things like the City Challenge and have suggested that two or three years is too short a period to make a proper evaluation of how successful those particular initiatives were. I don't know of similar evaluations to that particular point in Wales for the Schools Challenge Cymru, but with similar initiatives in England, the suggestion has been that you need at least three years to be able to evaluate it properly.
Mark Reckless AM: The Schools Challenge Cymru advisers, I understand that Estyn met with those termly through the programme. Can you explain how useful that engagement was, and also perhaps compare or contrast it to the ongoing engagement you have with the advisers from the regional consortia?
Meilyr Rowlands: You know, the engagement we had with local authorities, and regional consortia, and with Schools Challenge Cymru advisers was not really a problem for us. That was fine. I think the engagement with each other was more of the issue, really. I think the challenge for Schools Challenge Cymru was that it was introduced at a time when regional consortia were just beginning. So, you had a period of time when it wasn't entirely clear what the responsibilities of regional consortia were, compared with local authorities. That has developed and clarified over time, but at that time it wasn't entirely clear. Plus, you were bringing in another player to the school improvement landscape. When all of those different agencies worked well together, then that was a positive thing for schools. When they were all saying the same thing, having that extra resource, extra money, extra attention, was a positive thing; but, clearly, in some cases, that relationship didn't always work, and some schools felt that they were being told different things by different agencies. Clearly, that was one of the reasons why that wasn't as successful.
Mark Reckless AM: So, is Welsh Government now trying to do, through the regional consortia, what it was then trying to do through Schools Challenge Cymru?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, what you had then was you had all three: you had local authorities and regional consortia and Schools Challenge Cymru. So, what you have now is a clearer demarcation of who does what. I don't think what Welsh Government are doing now is the same as what they were trying to do in Schools Challenge Cymru, because I think what Schools Challenge Cymru did, and did well, I think, was identify that there are a small number of secondary schools that have particular challenges and they need over and above the normal local authority/regional consortia support, they need over and above that a certain quantum of support and resource. I think that's specifically what Schools Challenge Cymru was trying to do, and that's not quite the same as what the more universal provision of regional consortia is.
John Griffiths AM: Okay, that's all we have time for in this session, I'm afraid. There are some questions that we haven't reached that we'll write to you on to obtain further responses, and there are some matters that you've identified where you need to provide us with further information also. May I thank you very much for coming along this morning to give evidence? You will be sent a transcript to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Thank you very much. The committee will now break for just over six minutes until 11:30. Welcome back, for item 3 on our agenda today, scrutiny of Estyn's annual report for 2016-17. We've got a number of areas to cover, but please, Members, feel free to raise whatever issues you think appropriate, because the areas that we've identified are a general guide only. Okay, welcome back to Estyn, our witnesses for this session also. I don't know if we need further introductions. I don't think we do, really; we've already had that on the record. So, we'll move straight into questions then, and Llyr.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you very much. Just to start with, what's your opinion about the way the Government has been introducing reforms in this area over this past inspection cycle? In general, what is your opinion about how effective that has been and how much of an impression has it had?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well the seven year cycle encompasses three Governments if truth be told, but there has been a sense of continuity and progress made in the nature of policy work in general, starting with the fundamental things such as literacy and numeracy in the first instance and also behaviour and attendance, as I said earlier this morning. And then they've developed a far more comprehensive scheme that is at the heart of the development of the curriculum and pedagogy specifically. And I think that that general shift from the foundations—of literacy and numeracy—moving towards the curriculum and pedagogy does make sense. And the other trend that we've seen is to promote collaboration and the self-improvement system, as it's called. I also think that there are a number of progressive countries doing the same kind of thing. So, I think that the general direction is right.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, you think—and I'd agree—that the focus on pedagogy is correct and that this culture that appears to be putting more emphasis on self-improvement, and so on, is a positive one. Are there aspects that haven't worked as well in your opinion?
Meilyr Rowlands: Of course, one accepts that one would like to see development and progress happening far more quickly, but, even in that instance, we need to balance the need that we all have to see progress with the pressures that are on teachers—there are so many things changing. I think that the most striking aspect in looking back over the past seven years is that all aspects of work in the education system—I'm trying to avoid saying 'schools', because it's more than just schools; it's colleges and the system as a whole—have changed. All aspects of that have changed, and I think that we need that—all of those aspects need to be changed and improved—but we need to balance that against the fact that we need to not go so fast, because workload on teachers—. This responsibility of self-improvement means that there is more pressure on teachers and headteachers, ultimately. That's why Estyn was very pleased to collaborate with 15 other bodies to give guidance on workload for teachers, because we have to be very careful to get that right as well.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But is it disappointing, then, in the latest annual report, that you are to all intents and purposes coming to the conclusion that the performance is consistent with how it has been over the past inspection cycle? Would you not expect some kind of progress or something more significant in terms of outcomes?
Meilyr Rowlands: That's one way of looking at it. Another way, as I said earlier, is that all of these things are changing and, under those particular circumstances, that it's a good thing that teachers and the education system have been able to maintain standards and the quality of education.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: The sector, of course, is continually evolving. We know that a number of these reforms are still playing out and are still being developed and introduced. Of course, there is a risk that we are in this situation continuously, and therefore settling for managing to maintain, for me, perhaps wouldn't show enough ambition. Is there a risk that we will find ourselves continually—? As you say, the inspection cycle has seen three Governments. There are changes and different policies and priorities being implemented. From what you say, that does prevent the development of the sector.
Meilyr Rowlands: We are in the middle of a period of major change, and you're right that there is more change to come. The new curriculum will reach key stage 4 in around seven years again, so we're genuinely in the middle of this period of change. Perhaps 'revolutionary' is too strong a word, but it is the biggest change that I've seen in my career. You have to go back to the 1980s and 1990s to see similar changes. Of course, we all wish to see swifter progress being made, but what that means in practice is that you push more changes through, or that you push through the changes that we currently have more quickly. There was discussion, for example, about when the new curriculum should be introduced. Those are the kinds of practical questions that arise, and you have to remember that, in the classroom, what you will have are individual teachers having to prepare for a new GCSE, a new A-level, and there are new specifications in that regard, and it's a great deal of work. So, we have to be very careful when we say that we need to accelerate that process.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you understand the point I was making about the risk of finding ourselves like this continually and therefore to say, if we were to interpret your conclusion in the recent report, that outcomes have been consistent over the inspection cycle doesn't mean that we are pushing enough or that the reforms happen in a way that allows progress in performance terms.
Meilyr Rowlands: I would wish to see that we wouldn't be in this position continuously. I think that—
Llyr Gruffydd AM: But you've just suggested that there are seven years ahead of us yet in terms of introducing these reforms.
Meilyr Rowlands: But I do think that the reforms, in looking at them holistically, are fundamental, as I was saying. You have to go back 30, 40 years to see something similar. So, I do think that we need to look at—. One of the problems—. You ask what hasn't worked in the past. Well, I think one of the things, and it's difficult to answer that question, but one of the things that hasn't worked in the past is just doing one aspect of the system. We need to look at transforming the entire education system at the same time, because if you just tinker with one part then it might have an unintended effect in another place. So, I think we need to look at the system as a whole, and I think that what's happening at the moment is a structural change to the system.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, I think that's a fair enough point. What's your assessment, therefore, of how able or how ready schools are to deal with, in moving forward now, all of these changes and reforms?
Meilyr Rowlands: Well, as I said, I think that they have coped with a whole host of changes, and that's something to be praised. We are disappointed the standards haven't improved as much as we would have liked to have seen, but we also need to be congratulating the workforce for getting to grips with so many changes in a relatively short period. So, that does give one confidence that they will be able to cope with other changes in future. So, I am confident in that sense, but we do have to be careful in looking out for the workload, because the culture of promoting is one of giving more responsibilities to teachers, to schools, to colleges and to headteachers. So, we have to be very careful that that workload doesn't become excessive.
Llyr Gruffydd AM: Would you also share the concern that the reduction in school budgets will worsen those risks that you referred to?
Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. As you'll know, international research evidence shows that it is not the amount of funding that goes into education systems that dictates how effective they are. But it is true to say that, if you have financial cuts, that does cause practical problems for headteachers in having to lay off staff, and so on. So, it does take a lot of time and energy to deal with cuts.