D: and in this second case , communication happens f eh um from one computer to the other at the link ly layer .
D: OK ?
D: So , if I want to connect to uh , let 's say , Miguel 's , uh Michael 's , uh I I will send him a packet ,
D: and he will receive it , and that 's it .
D: OK , we can build on top of this some uh routing algorithm ,
D: some ad - hoc routing algorithm ,
D: but this is out of the scope of the of the standard .
C: Mm - hmm .
D: And C: and Miguel , should I should ask you one question .
D: Yeah .
C: And uh uh in version one and two you you have different technologies .
C: You know , frequency hopping , uh two modes and and and also infrared .
D: Yeah .
D: Yeah .
C: Does it still apply for for the uh eleven - B ?
D: For the D: no .
D: Eleven - B is only for for uh radio
D: and it 's only for uh direct sequences spread spectrum .
C: OK , DSS .
C: OK .
C: OK .
D: But , in fact , there is an ongoing new version , I think it 's c version - A ,
D: but it is not uh commercially available
D: which w will use uh orthogonal frequency division multiplexing
C: OK .
D: and will get probably twenty - five megabits per second .
D: eh but , again , the will move to five gigahertz ,
D: uh five point five gigahertz ,
D: eh gigahertz , uh area of a spec expect uh spectrum
D: But now , uh current devices are split at D: You know , that the old  the old waveLAN are nine hundred megahertz version
D: and the new ones are the the eleven megabits uh are uh two point four m uh ISM band .
C: Megahertz ,
C: yeah .
C: Mm - hmm .
D: However , uh some old uh waveLANs are also , but not the older ones  the oldest ones , are also uh two point four m
D: eh gigahertz . S
C: Uh , gigahertz .
C: Yeah .
C: In the RSM band .
D: S
D: And the good thing is that now , especially with the new version , all you D: you ca you you are you start to see uh compatible products in the market .
D: Because eh  maybe because it 's the , let 's say , second version ,
D: but also because I think it 's the only way for this industry to take off .
D: because uh previous versions , if you buy , let 's say , waveLAN , you are tied to waveLAN al the rest of your life .
D: But now you can  you can have interoperable products from several vendors ,
D: which is , I think , what , in the past , <comment> will power the ethernet uh revolution
D: You can buy any any compatible product
D: and and you know it will work with the other brand .
C: Yeah .
C: And one additional question from myself ,
C: but maybe also short ,
C: because time it running fast .
C: Uh , I have heard that uh wireless LAN and Bluetooth will have some problems
C: uh that they influence each other .
D: In front ?
C: Do you have additional information about this topic ?
D: Yeah .
D: Mmm .
D: You know ,
D: in the beginning , uh what w the D: I think that to put things in perspective , what we need to know is what Bluetooth is and what Bluetooth is for .
D: And uh Bluetooth is mainly for cutting this cable .
D: You know , the other day I was joking about that our wireless microphones were not , in fact , wireless
D: because it had this wire ,
D: So , the point is that eh Bluetooth is mainly a technology for cutting these kind of cables .
D: You know , sh oh short short distance cables ,
C: Yeah , that 's right .
C: Yeah .
C: Yeah .
D: uh , carrying usually really s uh , sh nnn ,
D: nnn
D: slow signals ,
D: or let 's say , boys and something like this .
C: Yeah , but nevertheless , you have the range of ten meters , or of one hundred meters .
D: Yeah .
D: Yeah , but you know , uh in fact
C: OK .
D: uh the initial version had only the the range of ten meters ,
D: and I guess that somebody at a certain meeting said " OK , why don't we have a l an extended range version ,
D: so we could re - use the same technology for other purposes ,
D: different than the original ones . "
D: So , em , uh , I have the feeling that this is  u this is what is uh introducing some confor confusion in the  in the Bluetooth
D: eh  or in the way people is is looking at Bluetooth
D: because they can say " OK , hundred meters is is  is an acceptable distance ,
D: let 's say , for communicating inside a building , inside a a small office .
D: So , uh some people , I think , is being tempted to think that Bluetooth could provide them uh , some kind of local connectivity ,
D: but uh for for data for computing uses .
D: Eh , however , I think that the that the  When you have tried uh current eh standard eh working devices , you you D: working at at eleven megabits per second , you cannot  you cannot switch to another thing , to another slower thing .
D: But uh even when they are using the same the same uh , um area of a s a spectrum ,
D: because Bluetooth is also intended to work in two point four uh gigabits ,
C: Yeah .
D: eh the technologies are different ,
D: you know eh Bluetooth eh is using a frequency hopping system
D: and uh
D: mmm
D: both uh dialing sequence and frequency hopping , spread the spectrum techniques , are also intended to provide uh interference l uh less , uh data transmission .
D: So , the idea is that these two techniques are intended not to interfere with any other thing .
D: So , even when I haven't tried , and I cannot tell you for sure , I think that the only problem one network will encounter uh in the presence of the other is a little bit of more noise .
D: And this will produce a little bit less throughput ,
D: but nothing more .
D: I don't expect any any more problem .
D: even the the the own Bluetooth specification is also
D: assuming that another Bluetooth or several Bluetooth networks c will be could be in the same area of space
D: and they are using the same hopping technology , frequency hopping technology .
D: But again , this technology is uh trying to avoid the other networks by choosing different hopping patterns .
D: So uh if several Bluetooth networks can can uh coexist without a problem , I don't see any problem will will happen if if we want to to make coexist one uh Bluetooth with another wireless uh local area network technology .
C: Well that 's a good news , OK ?
D: Yeah . I think so .
C: But anyway , um based on your uh uh initial scenario I believe because Bluetooth is on one chip ,
D: Yeah .
C: like you have now your UCB buss or whatever connectivity , you will have your Bluetooth connectivity .
D: Five bucks .
C: And that means your mouse , and and and D: Five bucks chip .
C: Yeah , and and and whatever kind of of eh things connected to your laptop and also your microphone and whatever you will will have , is Bluetooth - based .
D: Hmm - hmm - hmm .
C: Yeah , or will be Bluetooth - based .
D: Will be .
C: Yeah , and this is this is eh within maybe an uh wireless LAN .
D: Will be .
C: So , despite the fact that they are considered for different scenarios they are still
D: In fact in fact Bluetooth is also designed
C: within one one area .
C: Yeah .
D: to be compatible with existing digital European cordless telephones .
D: So , hopefully , we will be able to use some of our old devices or maybe our our cordless phone base station at home , with a computer . S
D: S So I think some really nice applications will will appear .
C: OK we 'll when I I will have some problems in the future with my l wireless LAN and Bluetooth connectivity ,
C: I will come to you ,
C: you will solve it OK ?
D: I 'll try to .
C: OK , please go on .
D: So , let me let me just uh finish , you know .
C: OK .
D: Uh well , this is something I , more or less , I told you .
D: and eh you know , the point , or or or D: what  the the spark of of my  of my work here , or at least , of what I was proposing to work here , is the fact that these two model uh two modes of operation , I was telling you here  that you have to choose at the driver level if your network adaptor is working in an access point - based environment or in ad ho in an ad - hoc environment . I see this as a as a limitation
D: because I think that uh when you have to choose among two options , well , mmm , maybe you are saying " no " to some of the benefits the other option , different than the one you are choosing , could provide you .
D: And I envision an an an m  an escenario where eh D: Oops !
D: Well , yeah .
D: Let 's go .
D: where we can have a kind of uh dual mode uh wireless network adaptor
D: So if we are not able to reach any access point but we are able to reach another network node , well , maybe this network node could do me the favor to reach or to forward my packets to the access point .
D: So the main idea , the driving force here , is to uh try to obtain uh , let 's say , hybrid mode
D: which allows an adaptor to work either in the access point or in the  eh in the ad - hoc mode in a seamless way .
D: and to include in every single node driver ,
D: this forwarding or helper uh forwarding mechanism that will allow to extend the wireless coverage without a need of buying a lot of access points
D: and putting even an access point inside the restroom . OK ?
D: Of course this idea mmm , can sound p can sound a little bit not very appealing for the manufacturers ,
D: at least for the manufacturers of access point
D: because well , they probably are very happy of selling a lot of them .
C: But maybe for cars .
C: Yeah , if your car is the infrastructure , for instance .
D: Yeah .
C: Yeah .
C: OK .
D: So , this is the m I think this is near the end , this is the last D: So
D: One possible extension of the same idea and something uh I 've been thinking for awhile , is the idea that , well , why can't do we <comment> extend this same concept to cell array systems ?
D: Why can't we , for example , think about some mmm , new mechanisms that users could get , uh connectivity by means of other users , and no directly to the base station ,
D: or , when we have several technologies uh in  overlapped in a certain area , why can't we use the closest and the cheapest , maybe , technology ,
D: or maybe the less power consumption technology , without the user to worry about if he is now using this or the other technology .
D: And on the other hand , what are the billing implications of this behavior ?
D: Because it is clear that , well , when I 'm only uh , talking to the to the base station of my provider , well billing is more or less straightforward ,
D: but what happens if I 'm working uh , let 's say , uh across a mall , and at a given moment I 'm using the small base station of a cordless phone that is inside the shop I 'm at the window of ?
D: Well in this case , I 'm using a resource which is not owned by my provider .
D: I 'm using , a let 's say , a private property .
D: Maybe I have to pay to this private property ,
D: or maybe my carrier will have to pay or to refund some money to this guy .
D: You know this something , uh I 'm putting on the table
D: I 'm not sure about , uh if this can be really of interest or not
D: but , it 's an idea ,
D: and I 'll be happy to discuss it with you .
D: And I uh I think my presentation is over ,
D: So .
C: Mm - hmm .
C: OK .
C: many thanks Miguel .
C: Are there any questions ?
D: Oh , you are welcome .
C: Maybe we have also the time to discuss with Miguel off - line the things if there is some uh question concerning uh his talk or maybe other questions .
C: Maybe one last question from my side
C: because I bring it up , uh concerning the proposal , some kind of active routing mechanism .
D: Mm - hmm .
C: It 's going in a quite different direction as as as as the traditional things discussed in the ITF
C: and I currently do not have any idea whether active routing is really a topic uh , within the I T
C: Do you have certain kind of experience or do you know certain activities uh , in that area ?
D: Nnn , no to both q to both questions .
C: OK .
D: I don't have previous experience
D: I don't eh know if uh where it will  it would fix .
D: However , eh you know I 'm just doing this presentation
D: uh some somehow a review of my previous work .
C: I know , yeah .
D: So eh this eh doesn't mean that D: I 'm I 'm probably getting involved a little bit more in this active routing thing .
C: Mm - hmm .
D: So uh I I maybe I will be able to hopefully I will be able to to give you a better answer in the future .
C: Oh , OK .
C: One more time , many thanks Miguel .
C: So .
D: Oh , than thanks , Michael , for your computer .
A: No problem .
C: So I will deploy a little bit information here from the uh project proposal .
D: Should I power off it ?
A: Um , just log out .
D: OK .
A: Uh . No .
A: Log out .
D: Oh , OK , sorry , sorry .
C: So I have only
C: four .
D: Oh .
C: Jordi is only a short period of time here ,
D: W
D: which is i which is proper C: so he will get the colored one .
D: Michael
E: Ah , thank you thank you very much .
A: OK .
D: Michael ,
C: and take a look to D: which is the proper answer ?
C: uh
A: That 's the proper answer .
D: Th - this one ?
A: Yeah .
D: OK .
C: Yeah .
D: Thank you .
C: Kill the computer .
C: Uh , So I started uh , for for advertising the project proposal here to provide a few slides
C: I think , first of all , Wilbert , is not here ,
C: second um , the um link here was uh enabling UMTS services and application ,
C: uh , I assume <nonvocalsound> was not read yesterday night .
C: So I suggest we go roughly to the slides here
C: and um
C: The the problem is that , in principle , we have different scopes .
C: And motivation of the project proposal from my point of view is that we will have the um Wireless access networks for the next generation will be more flexible .
C: There 's a @ @ for uh current uh uh uh for for fast changes within this network .
C: And that means , if you go to slide number three , <nonvocalsound> that we have um the possibility to to um having normal features in the mobile access network ,
C: and C: and um
C: and um also based on that it belongs normally to one single provider domain , that it is possible to to uh use novel things
C: and and and new protocols and new technologies within this network .
C: On the other hand , in the internet backbone , uh we it is i impossible
C: and we see it on several examples
C: like this , MPLS ,
C: there 's quality of service support , and multicast
C: and all this kind of thing ,
C: that , based on the success of the internet backbone , it 's become uh very unflexible , to p uh fo for the provision of these things .
C: So , if we are going to offer building blocks , and provide novel solutions for the next generation of wireless access networks , taking into account , without modifying the end - to - end scope , then I think it 's really beneficial work ,
C: also for the use of interactive multimedia application ,
C: so as it is described in the uh project proposal .
C: Um the point is that um to start with um a bigger cluster of co uh of potential partners to do this really really really big work ,
C: seems not to be feasible in the next time .
C: because if you have settled everything , and discussed everything and and and and uh without any money in the background , and a lot of money in the background ,
C: that is not uh feasible from my point of view .
C: Nevertheless , I discussed , with a lot of partners , these things .
C: And today , uh Michael and me , we were on the UCB to discuss with a guy who is a professor who is probably interested in the application stuff .
C: They are going in that direction .
C: They have a small project funded by NSA C: NSF ,
C: um , f for this " intelligent classroom " , is a little bit exaggerated , I believe ,
C: but going in that direction .
C: So there are a lot of interest ,
C: but without really hard money in the background , it is very hard to come to the initial steps .
C: And uh Juan Peire , one of the uh members of this NSA group has uh identified a certain kind of s start money , I would like to say .
C: So maybe if you start with a small cluster of um the constraints of this funding ,
C: and that means uh six universities and and institutions
C: uh , three in USA and three in Europe .
C: and of course , they are uh including the NSA group
C: and maybe that seems to be very reasonably , for me .
C: But then we have to align the project proposal in that sense .
C: Because then we cannot do do anything as it is described in the in the bigger scope .
C: So the point is um to reduce the overall picture , which I described in a few words , to the fact that we have really some work packages where we can focus on it ,
C: still fitting into the big picture .
C: Yeah ?
C: And so that will be the task of the next weeks .
C: And uh
C: I hope that everybody is doing his homework concerning @ @ for instance
C: uh alternative to the intelligent classroom maybe that we h can start here only with the N S A group
C: within this big picture
C: um with some work
C: that we put the pieces together .
C: Because I believe many are very flexible here
C: accounting also the future - coming uh joining people of the NSA group , to do some work here .
C: And if we are starting with a very very very small cluster with a common activity have maybe some starting funding for bigger uh radius of the of the the the uh project proposal , with the mind that maybe at the final stage it will becoming a European proposal with this uh the the whole funding .
C: That 's uh my point , and my picture I have in mind .
C: And I will go definitely back to Germany the tenth of December .
C: That is fixed now .
C: And I hope we can use these remaining weeks to have really progress in uh for the proposal in that sense what I mentioned before .
D: Hmm - hmm .
C: Because then I will make the advertising that is still worth to stay here ,
C: And I hope then Siemens will say OK for me to stay longer here .
C: And then I will come back maybe in the mid of end of January .
C: So that 's uh it 's a comment to the proposal .
C: So I think everybody should consider carefully , based on this statement I made uh next steps
C: and of course everybody has little bit other work to do
C: but it should be should be always an ongoing process until I will leave until the tenth of December .
B: You mentioned um six partners of this um work .
C: OK .
B: So you know already what partners are included .
B: OK I didn't have a look at uh slides ,
C: Um
C: yeah
C: I will distribute all the things electronically
B: OK .
C: to all the C: OK , take a look to slide of number two ,
B: Just I 'm just curious .
C: Yeah !
C: You see uh uh University of Mannheim ,
C: University
C: also these are the official ones ,
B: Yeah , sure .
C: You see that in the ICSI US on the U S A side , I believe that the home companies and universities are still contributing .
B: Mm - hmm .
B: Yeah yeah .
C: Yeah ?
C: but these are then the official ones ,
C: and I would like to have them B: And all of them had agreed ,
B: or ?
C: They say they are very interested in it .
B: OK .
C: Yeah ?
C: Uh a few words , the University of Mannheim is at location where Joerg Widmer is uh working on it ,