A: Yeah , I mean you could call it whatever you want .
A: For the foreign language we couldn't classify every single one .
A: So I just left it blank and you can put whatever you want .
E: Because is different , the Span - uh the Spanish language from the the north of Spain , of the south , of the west and the A: Sure .
E: But .
A: So I 'm not sure what to do about the Region field for English variety .
E: Yeah .
A: You know , when I wrote I was writing those down , I was thinking , " You know , these are great if you 're a linguist " .
B: Yeah .
D: Actually even if you  t
A: But I don't know how to I don't know how to I don't know how to categorize them .
B: Yeah .
C: If you 're if e if y
D: This wasn't developed by th these regions weren't C: if you 're a TI or MIT from nineteen eighty - five .
A: Yeah
C: Yeah .
A: So I guess my only question was if if you were a South Midland speaking region , person ? Would you know it ?
D: Mm - hmm .
A: Is that what you would call yourself ?
D: I don't know .
A: Yeah .
C: You know , I think if you 're talking if you 're thinking in terms of places , as opposed to names different peop names people have given to different ways of talking , I would think North Midwest , and South Midwest would be more common than saying Midland ,
C: right ,
C: I mean , I I went to s
D: Yeah . Now the usage D: Maybe we can give them a li like a little map ?
D: with the regions and they just D: No , I 'm serious .
B: No , that 's not bad .
D: Because it takes less time , and it 's sort of cute
E: i at this  in that side in that side of the the paper .
B: Yeah .
D: there 's no figure .
C: Well .
D: Well just a little D: You know , it doesn't have all the detail ,
D: but you sort of C: But what if you moved five times and and uh
B: Well , I was thinking you could have ma multiple ones and then the amount of time D: No , but you 're categorized .
D: That 's the same B: so , roughly .
B: So . You could say , you know " ten years on the east coast , five years on the west coast " or something or other .
A: Well , We I think we don't want to get that level of detail at this form .
A: I think that 's alright if we want to follow up .
A: But .
C: I guess we don't really know .
D: I mean I As I said , I don't think there 's a huge benefit to this region thing .
D: It it gets D: The problem is that for some things it 's really clear and usually listening to <comment> it you can tell right away if it 's a New York or Boston accent ,
D: but New York and Boston are two D: well , I guess they have the NYC ,
D: but New England has a bunch of very different dialects
D: and B: Mm - hmm .
D: and so does um S So do other places .
A: Yeah , so I picked these regions cuz we had talked about TIMIT ,
D: Right .
A: and those are right from TIMIT .
D: And so these would be satisfying like a speech research community if we released the database ,
A: So .
D: but as to whether subjects know where they 're from , I 'm not sure because um I know that they had to fill this out for Switchboard .
D: This is i almost exactly the same as Switchboard regions
B: Oh . OK .
D: or very close .
D: Yeah .
D: Um And I don't know how they filled that out .
D: But th if Midland D: Yeah , Midland is the one that 's difficult I guess .
B: I think a lot of people D: Also Northwest you 've got Oreg - Washington and Oregon now which uh y people don't know if it 's western or northern .
B: Yeah .
A: Yeah , I certainly don't .
A: I mean , I was saying I don't even know what I speak .
D: It 's like Northwest
C: Oh , what is Northern ?
A: Am I speaking Am I speaking Western ?
C: Well and what and what 's Northern ?
D: I think originally it was North Northwest
A: Northwest ?
E: Yeah .
D: But A: Yeah , so this is a real problem .
D: Yeah .
A: I don't know what to do about it .
B: I wouldn't know how to characterize mine either .
B: And and so I would think I would say , I 've I 've got a mix of California and Ohio .
A: I c
A: I think at the first level , for example , we speak the same .
D: I don't know .
A: our our dialects Or whatever you region are the same .
B: Uh - huh .
A: But I don't know what it is .
A: So .
D: Well , you have a like techno - speak accent I think .
A: a techno - speak accent ?
D: Yeah , you know ?
E: A techno
A: A a geek region ?
D: Well it 's I mean I you can sort of identify
B: Geek region .
D: it f It 's it 's not not that that 's E: Is different . Is different .
D: but but maybe that maybe we could leave this
D: and see what people See what people choose
D: and then um let them just fill in if they don't D: I mean I don't know what else we can do , cuz  That 's North Midland .
B: I 'm wondering about a question like , " Where are you from mostly ? "
E: Yeah .
C: But I I 'm s I 'm now that you mentioned it though , I am really am confused by " Northern " .
E: Yeah .
B: I agree . I agree .
C: I really am .
E: Yeah .
C: I mean , if if you 're in New England , that 's North .
B: I agree .
C: If you 're i if you 're
B: Scandinavian , the Minnesota area 's north .
C: Uh yeah . That 's C: But that 's also North Midland ,
E: Yeah .
C: right ?
B: Oh , @ @ . OK .
C: And and and Oregon and and Oregon and Washington are are Western , but they 're also Northern .
D: Yeah .
D: Of course , that 's very different from , like , Michigan , or E: Mmm .
B: Mm - hmm .
C: uh , Idaho ?
D: Well there are hardly any subjects from Idaho .
C: Montana ?
A: No problem .
B: Just rule them out .
D: There 's only a few people in Idaho .
A: There are hardly any subjects from " beep "
E: Yeah .
D: Sorry .
D: No , that 's C: Maybe Maybe we Maybe we should put a little map and say " put an X on where you 're from " ,
E: And is in those A: Yeah really .
E: And if you put D: We could ask where they 're from .
B: It 'd be pretty simple , yeah .
D: Yeah .
D: But - We went back to that .
E: Yeah .
E: If you put eh the state ?
A: Well well we sort of B: Where are you from mostly ?
D: We we went we went around this and then a lot of people ended up saying that it E: Uh - huh . Mm - hmm .
D: You know .
A: Well , I like the idea of asking " what variety of English do you speak " as opposed to where you 're from
A: Because th if we start asking where we 're from , again you have to start saying , " well , is that the language you speak or is that just where you 're from ? "
E: Yeah .
B: Hmm ?
D: Right . Right .
E: Yeah .
C: Let 's D: I mean it gives us good information on where they 're from , but that doesn't <comment> tell us anything C: Mm - hmm .
A: And C: We could always ask them if they 're from D: well , enough about their A: I mean . So so I would say Germany
D: like A: You know am I speaking with German accent
B: Oh .
A: I don't think so .
D: Right .
B: Well , see , I 'm thinking " Where are you from mostly "
A: Oh , OK yeah .
B: because , you know , then you have some some kind of subjective amount of time factored into it .
E: Yeah .
E: Yeah .
A: Yep .
E: Yeah .
A: Yeah , I guess I could try to put squeeze in a little map .
A: I mean there 's not a lot of r of room
C: I 'd say , uh , " Boston , New York City , the South and Regular " .
B: Well A: I think of those , Northern is the only one that I don't even know what they 're meaning .
D: Oh , I don't know .
E: And And  Um And usually here people here know what is their kind of mmm lang English language ?
B: Yeah . Yeah .
C: That 's a joke .
C: That 's D: So let 's make it up .
D: S I mean , who cares .
D: Right ?
D: We can make up our own D: So we can say " Northwest " , " Rest of West " or something .
D: You know .
D: " West "
D: and I mean .
A: Ye
A: I don't think the Northwest people speak any differently than I do .
D: It doesn't even D: Yeah , exactly .
D: That 's not really a region .
C: " Do you come from the Louisiana Purchase ? "
B: I D: So we could take out " North " " Northern " .
A: That that 's
E: eh here Is easy for people to know ?
A: exactly what we 're arguing about .
D: That 's D: Yeah , w It 's In It 's it 's harder in America anywhere else , basically .
A: We don't know .
E: because you have A: I mean some of them are very obvious .
A: If you if you talk to someone speaking with Southern drawl , you know .
E: N m Yeah .
B: Yeah , or Boston .
A: Or Boston , yeah .
B: I can't do it , but E: Or Boston ?
D: And those people , if you ask them to self - identify their accent they know .
C: Yeah .
E: Yeah .
B: Yeah , they do .
D: They know very well .
B: Yeah I agree I agree . I agree .
D: They know they don't speak the same as the
A: But is Boston New England ?
B: And they 're proud of it .
D: day o
B: Yeah .
D: Yeah , exactly .
B: It 's identity thing .
D: And they 're glad to tell you .
E: style .
D: Well . Depends who you ask , I suppose .
A: W I guess that 's the problem with these categories .
D: But that 's why they have New York City but B: Well , we ca Well , why can't we just say characterize something like char characterize your accent
C: Well , Boston 's @ @ , too .
D: Or D: " Characterize your accent if you can . "
B: and and so I would say , " I don't know " .
D: Yeah .
D: Right , which probably means you have a very B: But someone from Boston with a really strong coloration would know .
B: And so would an R - less Maine or something ,
D: And that 's actually good .
E: Yeah .
D: I was I was thinking of something along that line
B: yeah .
C: How
D: because if you don't know , then , you know , ruling out the fact that you 're totally inept or something ,
B: Good .
B: Hmm .
D: if somebody doesn't know , it probably means their accent isn't very strong compared to the sort of midwest standard .
C: Well , I mean , it wasn't that long ago that we had somebody here who was from Texas who was absolutely sure that he didn't have any accent left .
B: Hmm ?
C: And and had he had a pretty noticeable drawl .
A: OK , so . I propose , take out Northern add , don't know .
B: Oh . Yeah . I I would say more more sweepingly , " how would you characterize your accent ? "
E: Yeah .
A: So you want to change the instructions also not just say region ?
D: W
B: Well , I think this discussion has made me think that 's s something to consider .
A: I don't know
A: if I if I read this form , I think they 're going to ask <comment> it they 're going to answer the same way if you say , " What 's variety of English do you speak ?
A: Region . "
A: as if you say " what variety of region region <comment> do you speak ?
A: Please characterize your accent ? "
A: They 're going to answer the same way .
B: I guess B: Well , I was not sure that E: Mmm .
B: I B: So . I was suggesting not having the options ,
B: just having them A: Oh , I see .
E: Huh .
A: Well what we talked about with that is is so that they would understand the granularity .
B: Yes , but if , as Liz is suggesting , people who have strong accents know that they do A: I mean that 's what I had before , and you told me to list the regions to list them .
B: and are D: Each each one has pros and cons
B: Well , I know .
C: Right .
C: Right .
A: So .
D: I mean we we C: Right .
B: That 's true .
C: Yeah last week last week I was sort of r arguing for having it wide open ,
C: but then everybody said " Oh , no ,
C: but then it will be hard to interpret
C: because some people will say Cincinnati and some will say Ohio " .
A: I mean I had it wide open last week and and you said TIMIT .
C: And .
D: What if we put in both ?
B: Yeah .
C: Yeah .
D: And Would people A: That 's what the " Other " is for .
D: No , I mean what if we put in both ways of asking them ?
D: So . One is Region
D: and the another one is " if you had to characterize yourself your accent , what would you say ? "
A: Won't they answer the same thing ?
D: Well they might only answer only one of the questions
D: but if
B: Yeah that 's fine .
D: You know .
B: They might say " Other " for Region because they don't know what category to use
D: Actually B: but they might have something D: Right .
D: It just And we B: because it is easier to have it open ended .
D: we might learn from what they say , as to which one 's a better <comment> way to ask it .
D: But I Cuz I really don't know .
C: W This is just a small thing
C: but um It says " Variety " and then it gives things that e have American as one of the choices .
C: But then it says " Region " ,
C: but Region actually just applies to uh , US ,
C: right ?
A: Right .
A: I mean that 's why I put the " Other " in .
B: Well , we thought about it .
C: Ah , OK .
B: Yeah , OK .
C: S
B: We just We sort of thought , " yes , " y y I mean B: At the last meeting , my recollection was that we felt people would have uh less B: that that there are so many types and varieties of these other languages
B: and we are not going to have that many subjects from these different language groups
B: and that it 's a huge waste of of space .
A: Yep .
C: OK .
A: So I mean , I I mean the way I had it last time was Region was blank ,
B: That 's what I thought .
A: it just said Region colon .
B: Yeah .
B: Yeah .
A: And and I think that that 's the best way to do it ,
A: because because of the problems we 're talking about
A: but what we said last week , was no , put in a list ,
A: so I put in a list .
D: Maybe we can make the list a little smaller .
A: So should we go back to A: Well , certainly dropping " Northern " I think is right , because none of us know what that is .
D: Cuz , I mean D: And keeping " Other " ,
D: and then maybe this North Midland , we call it " North Midwest " .
D: South Midwest , or just C: Yes I I I think so . Yeah .
D: South Midwest .
D: Does that make sense ?
E: South Midwest ?
D: That would help me D: Yeah .
D: Cuz C: U unless you 're from Midland , Kansas .
D: Midland C: But .
C: Yeah .
D: I don't know where Midland is
C: There 's a Or Midland Midland C: Is it Midland Midland Midland , Texas or Midland , Kansas ?
A: Is " Midwest " one word ?
D: Y yeah , one w
C: I forget .
C: But there 's a town .
D: Oh .
C: in in there .
C: I forget what it is @ @ .
B: I don't think that 's what they mean .
D: But ,
D: yeah . So . Kansas would be South Midland .
C: Yeah .
D: Right ?
C: Y yeah .
D: And and wouldn't D: Yeah .
D: So , th I 'm from Kansas , actually .
C: And Colorado , right across the border , would be North Midland .
E: Southern Midland .
D: Yeah .
D: Colora
A: And uh D: Oh , right .
D: And then , the the dropping North ,
D: so it would be Western .
D: It 's just one big shebang , where , of course , you have huge variation in dialects ,
C: But you do in the others , too . So .
A: But that 's true of New England too .
D: but <comment> but so do you D: Yeah .
A: So . I mean only one C: Yeah .
D: Yeah . Yeah .
A: Well , I shouldn't say that .
A: I have no clue .
A: I was going to say the only one that doesn't have a huge variety is New York City .
A: But I have no idea whether it does or not .
B: It does seem C: U
B: I mean . I I would think that these categories would be more w would be easier for an an analyst to put in rather than the subject himself .
A: I think that that was what happened with TIMIT , was that it was an analyst .
B: OK .
C: Wait a minute .
C: Where does Where does  d w Where Where 's where does uh New New York west of west of uh New York City and Pennsylvania uh and uh
D: Yeah , I don't know how it came from .
B: OK .
D: So . That 's New England I think .
A: New England
C: N No , it 's not .
D: Yeah .
A: Oh , no .
C: Oh no .
B: I sort of thought they were part of the one of the Midlands .
C: No , no . No .
C: Pennsylvania is not A: " Other " ,
A: it goes under " Other " ,
A: definitely under " Other " .
D: Well , you know , Pennsylvania has a pretty strong dialect and it 's totally different than C: Pennsylvania C: Yeah . Pennsylvania is not New England .
C: and uh New Jersey is not New England and Maryland is not New England and none of those are the South .
A: OK . So .
A: Another suggestion .
B: Yeah .
A: Rather than have circle fill in forms , say " Region , open paren , E G Southern comma Western comma close paren colon . "
B: OK .
D: OK !
C: That 's good .
E: Yeah .
B: Fine by me , fine by me .