Lynne Neagle AM: Actually, it's your set of questions next on universal adoption.
Suzy Davies AM: I'll try and keep this on the shorter side, if that's okay, everybody. You say in your evidence that you expect universal adoption, basically, by 2020, I think it is, or it might be 2019. What do you think universal adoption actually means? What does it look like? Does it mean 100 per cent adoption?
Kirsty Williams AM: What is means is that I expect all institutions to be in a position to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate. I believe it should be an entitlement to all Welsh students to be able to study this qualification, and I believe we should work to the situation where it becomes the norm to take the Welsh baccalaureate. I also recognise that in some individual cases, there may be very good reasons why perhaps this is not aligned to the well-being of that particular student. But when I talk about universal adoption, I expect all our institutions to be in a position to deliver the qualification, and I believe it should be an entitlement for Welsh students to be able to undertake this qualification.
Suzy Davies AM: But not an obligation—that's the bit I'm trying to get at.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think it should become the norm, and if there are exceptions to that, and there could well be for very legitimate reasons, I think that that flexibility should be allowed. But I think, for those students who are not doing that Welsh baccalaureate, there should be evidence as to why that decision has been taken.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay, so there's a presumption. I think the performance measures, probably, are likely to sharpen the minds of some school leaders, so I won't pursue that. But can you tell me what lesson you may have learnt from the universal obligation for students to study Welsh language in schools when those schools weren't particularly ready to offer a quality course?
Kirsty Williams AM: As we've rehearsed earlier, it is important that all of our schools and colleges are in a position to deliver this qualification well and deliver a really positive experience to learners. That's why there is existing support available, and via our new professional learning programmes there will be more support available for teachers to ensure that they have the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's going to take some time. Would you consider pausing the presumption of universal roll-out until you're absolutely sure that all institutions are able to offer the bac to the quality that you would like to see it delivered?
Kirsty Williams AM: Not at this stage. I have no intention of pausing. We have evidence that schools are already delivering the qualification really well—
Suzy Davies AM: But you know that we've had evidence, and you must have as well, that not all schools are doing it.
Kirsty Williams AM: What we do know is that some schools struggle to deliver existing qualifications. I don't know why we would turn round and say that this qualification needs to be stopped when we wouldn't stop other qualifications, and we'd say, 'Well, there we are, we haven't got a 100 per cent guarantee that every single school is delivering this particular qualification especially well, therefore we're going to denude the opportunity of students to study that particular subject.' What we're saying is, 'There is a responsibility on us, on individual schools and on our regional consortia to endure that there is professional learning in place so that all schools are in a position to deliver the qualification well.'
Suzy Davies AM: Isn't it irresponsible to ask students to be obliged to take a qualification that's badly delivered?
Kirsty Williams AM: What is irresponsible is not to invest in professional learning to ensure that all schools are in a position to deliver it well.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, I agree with you on that, actually, which is why I was a bit confused when you had some in-year additional money in this year's budget that was being given out to consortia rather than to schools to improve the ability of their teachers to deliver the Welsh baccalaureate in certain schools. Can you tell me whether the money—I think it was about £5 million that was going to the consortia in-year—will you will offer them suggestions that that is used for improving baccalaureate teaching?
Kirsty Williams AM: The money that is available is going via consortia to schools. Individual schools are best placed to understand the professional learning needs of their staff. And if that school understands that they have particular professional learning needs for the Welsh baccalaureate, then I would expect the money to be spent on that. Where a school is doing the Welsh baccalaureate particularly well, then the school might identify other areas where they look to seek improvement. Therefore, it is for the individual school to assess the professional learning needs of their staff. We can't second-guess that, and therefore it has to be right that school leaders are able to plan the professional learning of their staff accordingly.
Suzy Davies AM: I completely accept that and, as I say, it's not for all schools, but bearing in mind we're facing evidence of polarisation of delivery, I'm just wondering whether there wasn't a letter suggesting that they may want to focus on this in the schools that aren't delivering this well at the moment.
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, again, that's a conversation to be had between challenge advisors in our regional consortia who are aware of the strengths and weaknesses in individual schools, in conjunction with the leadership of those schools, to discuss how that professional learning money is best spent. There isn't a school that is fantastic at everything, nor is there a school that is not good at anything, if you know what I mean. There are strengths and weaknesses in all schools. It is for the regional consortia, via challenge advisers, and the headteacher, to have that conversation about what the professional learning needs are for that particular school, to ensure that all their teachers, across the length and breadth of the curriculum, are in a position to deliver good-quality lessons. But we can't second-guess that.
Kevin Palmer: Can I just make a further comment? I'll be this afternoon meeting with the regional consortia, Estyn, the universities, and the rest of what we call 'the middle tier' to discuss with them the configuration of a national curriculum for professional learning, premised on the priorities that are emerging from our current work with pioneer schools. And the shifts in pedagogy that you all know is found behind some of these issues, with the delivery of the Welsh bac, those shifts in pedagogy are right at the core of the national approach to professional learning—so, things like project-based learning, the kinds of things you talked about today, moving away from a spoon-feeding model, not just for the Welsh bac but actually right across the curriculum. The new curriculum requires us to move in these new directions. So, it's absolutely true to say that each individual school is different, each individual practitioner is different, but we must give the regions and the HEIs, as it were, a menu of things, and guidance around where there are clearly weaknesses in schools. Those weaknesses need to be addressed.
Suzy Davies AM: I accept that we're going forward towards Donaldson, and I'm sure that you will be getting questions on that at some time in the future. I'm more concerned about this bac that's been around for 10 years, and there's still, as far as we can tell from the evidence that we've had, poor delivery in some schools, where there's the prospect of obligation on the horizon. That was the thing that was worrying me. Anyway, thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think the issue of the difference between entitlement and obligation is a very important one and is a concern to students. You were saying it's an entitlement, not an obligation, but we have had very clear evidence from colleges that some of them are making young people do it, and schools are making young people do it. So, what do you say to those schools that are insisting on their pupils doing the Welsh bac at post 16?
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, I hope that it becomes the norm that at post-16 level students take the Welsh baccalaureate, because I think it is of huge value. There may be circumstances that mean that the well-being of that student could be compromised by making them do this qualification. There could be a whole host of reasons why it is not suitable for a child to take this qualification, and therefore there has to be some flexibility in the system, and we have to trust in the professional leadership of our colleges and our headteachers to make that decision in the round, with the pupil and their parents, about what's in the best interests of those pupils. But I do think a situation where, perhaps, an entire cohort of students are suddenly deemed it's unsuitable for, I find that very hard to believe, but there could well be circumstances, for a whole host of reasons, where that particular qualification—. And we would not want to jeopardise the well-being of a student by forcing them to do a qualification that wasn't in their best interests, and we need to have the flexibility in the system to allow school leaders to make that decision, but they should also then be accountable for that decision.
Lynne Neagle AM: But do you recognise there's maybe a case for strengthening guidance, then, on this? Because, we've had teachers tell us that they have insisted on pupils doing this, and then the parents have rung Welsh Government, and they felt undermined, then. So, do you think there's a case for strengthening the guidance or clarifying what the position is to schools and colleges?
Kirsty Williams AM: Very happy to do that. As I said, from time to time, parents do indeed contact Welsh Government, and in that contact there is a whole variety of reasons why that parent feels the Welsh baccalaureate is not in the best interests of those children. Sometimes, that can go from the extreme of, 'I want my child to do five A-levels and I think that's in their best interest to get into Oxford and Cambridge'—I would argue that that is a myth, around the need to do that many A-levels—through to, 'Actually, my child has a range of learning needs, and actually this qualification isn't suited to them. Making them go out and do voluntary work in an organisation with people that don't understand their needs and they are unfamiliar with could jeopardise my child's ability and my child's well-being.' So, there's a whole range of reasons why sometimes people have concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. Some of those are very legitimate concerns. Sometimes, they're based on information that, perhaps, isn't correct, or the myths around, 'I need to do five A-levels if I want to go to Cambridge'. Schools, then, have some flexibility. I'm aware of a case last year where a parent felt very concerned that the students were also having to study for entrance exams into Cambridge. A conversation was had with the school. They were able to allow the student extra time to study for that qualification and pick up their Welsh bac work later on in the academic year. So, they were able to be flexible in the delivery of that qualification. I'm very pleased to say that we've had correspondence from said parent to say that his son went on to do exceptionally well in his A-levels and his Welsh baccalaureate and gained his place at Cambridge University, and that's about having the flexibility, even at a school level, to be able to respond to the needs of individual students.

Summary: The committee members expressed their hope that all schools would be able to organize the baccalaureate, as well as its corresponding training courses. Via their professional programs, there would be more available support for teachers to ensure that they had the skills and the confidence to deliver the qualification in a high-quality manner. Financial support would be provided as well.