A: Mmm .
B: Yeah , and the question is how extensive this gets .
A: I mean , I guess what you really want , is if there 's some information you wanna know F: Mm - hmm .
A: So we want some rough idea of their dialect , basically .
F: That 's it .
A: then we should have some question where it 's not free form , except for these people who are who have non - American English accents .
A: There we probably have to have a category " Non - American English " and then a few choices .
A: And we should have something that 's simple , that people can circle , like these TIMIT regions or something , so that we have something that minimally you can A: cuz a lot of times if you give the data out that 's what people are gonna use .
A: They 're gonna want some small set of places ,
A: and then , but anything additional people can fill out , and we can put it in as a note or something ,
A: but if we don't have that , someone 's gotta sit there and figure out you know , I 've got twenty people who said Midwest ,
A: and I 've got a few people who said something else
A: and these don't overlap or these
F: Well - Isn't it I mean , I think that we 're going a little bit in a circle , because I like the TIMIT suggestion very much ,
F: and I think it 's a question of how to ge incorporate it ,
F: and and we 've already suggested I mean , it 's come up in this discussion , that the suggestion that we could have um the TIMIT categories for the American ,
F: and and then make the choice or not , as to whether we do it for British ,
A: Oh , OK , so A: yeah as long as you have F: I mean , w we sort of discussed one way or the other ,
F: and it doesn't matter to me .
F: I don't know if Adam has has a preference ,
B: But but F: but we could have you know , a sub a sub - categorization for American ,
F: We could even use the TIMIT subcategorization .
F: I don't know if it has one for British , or whatever ,
E: Mm - hmm .
F: But you know , just have it you know , a short simple form that you can categorize yourself in a in a systematic way .
B: What about the the phrasing that um Chuck used , uh which was in in relation to the question I was trying to formulate of uh Where where did you what B: what was that what w how did you phrase it ?
D: What language was spoken in the home ?
B: " What language was spok " ,
B: yeah , so it 's not where did you grow up , but what language was spoken in the home between the ages of , what would it be , five and twelve or something like that ?
C: Mmm .
C: Yeah .
F: It 's a good idea .
D: Depends of who you ask , what the age range is .
A: Well , in the home , the influence of the home is much lower age than that ,
C: Yeah .
A: I mean once you go beyond the age five or six then it 's the the school influence as well and and
F: And the peers .
A: yeah ,
A: so In the home it 's sort of your phonetic first level ,
F: That 's one part though .
A: um a - So it 's you know it starts to get sort of complicated .
D: Yeah , so this is why I F: Well , It 's that 's not a problem though ,
D: So so th
F: I mean . That would be a good question to ask ,
F: and then you could add a question .
F: You know , would uh " among your peers " .
F: You know .
B: cuz he does make a good point about the region
F: Specify the age range .
B: not necessarily again , if you 're on the army base or A: Right .
D: Well , the way it 's phrased right now , it 's clearly asking about language .
B: Yeah .
D: And so , what it 's trying to get at is what you think you speak .
D: Now , I think that the point is well taken that sometimes people are wrong about what they think they speak .
A: Right .
D: But , other than having a trained linguist interview them and ask these very specific questions , I don't see a way around it .
E: Mm - hmm .
D: Because as you said , what you 're gonna have to stay say is " Well , list the languages that your parents spoke when you were in home and how good they were at it and how long they spoke it ,
D: and now list the ones in preschool
D: and now list the ones in first grade
D: and now list the ones your friends speak "
E: Sort of like as soon as you get to the cases on the edge , the complexity just shoots up .
F: Yeah , that 's right .
D: Right .
A: Mm - hmm .
D: So I want to try to keep the complexity so someone can fill out this form at the beginning of a meeting without taking f uh forty - five minutes .
C: Mm - hmm .
F: and we 're F: and then we like I said , we have the enviable benefit of knowing most of these people .
F: and being able to ask them follow - ups if we need to .
B: For now ,
B: right
B: so it 's I mean , again , we are hoping to expand this out ,
F: For now .
F: That 's true .
F: Washington and stuff , yeah .
B: yeah .
F: That 's true .
D: So I think that adding the the TIMIT categories is a good idea ,
D: because that 's very easy for a person to fill out .
D: But I think we still have this problem of is it gonna be a self - evaluation ?
D: or are we gonna ask them " what was it when you were four years old , or what was it when you were six years old , or what wher " w
D: What 's the best way of phrasing the question ?
E: Well , you know the other thing , too , is that it seems like th one of the reasons you would gather real detailed information about their native language is if you were gonna do fine - grained phonetic analysis or something .
E: and I don't F: Well , it 's B: And somebody might .
D: Or adapta or adaptation .
A: Most of but most of those people don't rely on the self - evaluations , anyway .
E: Well that 's what I was gonna ask ,
E: is that A: They 'll probably listen to the speech ,
A: so
F: Well , I you know , I w I was thinking of it as e
F: that 's a good point ,
F: but I was thinking uh , you know , with reference to the language model issue , which uh
F: and I guess it could be done inductively ,
F: but if you have a bunch of , say , R - less dialects and uh you know , if they A: But even you know in Switchboard , I I remember looking really carefully at A: They have information sort of like TIMIT
A: I don't know it 's how well they categorized ,
A: but they had North Atlantic , Mid - Atlantic , and A: You know , Texas was definitely out on A: I mean most of the people from cer certain places in the South were from specific Texas locations ,
A: but other than that you had a huge range of A: You know , people would say Boston , and they had nothing like what I would call a Boston accent .
F: Mm - hmm .
A: So it was F: Interesting .
E: Were they putting down where they lived at the moment they m recordings were made ?
E: Is that why ?
A: Um No , the question was really geared towards trying to get people 's self - evaluation of their dialect region .
E: Rather than where they grew up ?
F: Mm - hmm .
E: Mmm .
F: But you have a lot of stratification in any region .
A: and you know , for instance , you know , Minnesota Midwest is totally different than Michigan Midwest which is totally E: Yeah .
B: Right .
F: Interesting .
A: these were all settled by very different type people ,
A: so it it 's sort of a general help
A: but I think that anyone who 's doing phonetics wouldn't rely on that , they would probably use it as a first pass or something ,
E: So , then we probably don't need the fine - grained information .
D: Well maybe should we just D: Then maybe we shouldn't just shouldn't ask .
A: Well , I think we do need to make sure about the f the non - native accents because those are , you know E: Yeah .
A: but we don't need to ha be really really specific about the others , because it won't be very w helpful anyway .
E: Mm - hmm .
D: Well , maybe for the native English speakers we shouldn't even ask the region if it 's that unreliable .
A: I think we should , because other databases do .
A: It 's sort of a political thing .
A: And there are some general A: like , you will find more New Yorkers in the New York category .
A: but it 's not
E: It can't be relied on only .
A: Right .
D: The other thing also is that I 'm asking for the variety of English , and I did just put American , British , Indian and other .
D: So , I didn't put Canadian , Australian , and all the other varieties .
F: Mm - hmm .
A: But Other is there , and people will fill that out .
D: e But do you think those three are OK ?
A: They 'll see by example .
A: Yeah that 's I think that 's fine ,
E: Yeah , I think those are good .
D: OK .
A: they 'll say oh , I 'm not one of these ,
A: I 'm Canadian , or
B: Yeah .
B: So internally , we have Texas and other .
C: Hmm .
D: So that for the Eng - native English speakers , we 'll do variety of English , regions from the TIMIT labels , and another field .
A: Right .
A: I mean , even like Cal - LA is totally different than D: And then
A: I mean , you really can't um F: Well F: Mm - hmm .
A: We could ask them for more information , but I don't think it 's  necessary and it 's not going to solve this problem .
D: I thought this was <comment> be fast .
E: Yeah .
F: Well that 's what the final the fin the third category was designed to do ,
F: because I mean , you have a bunch of different types of accents in New York
F: You know .
F: Native - speaking New Yorkers , as a as a function of their social uh groups and their ethnic identifications and their You know .
A: Oh yeah .
B: mm - hmm
F: There are lots of things that are very identifiable as um you know , other other aspects , which is why we have this third category .
C: Mm - hmm .
F: So we wanted to certainly distinguish American versus British , and other types at that level ,
F: and then allow people to self - identify if there are other specific things ,
F: and then in addition , this issue of regions with some sort of time frame for the re region because I think that if you live in Massachusetts now versus you know , in childhood and as adolescence F: So if you lis if if you D: Air conditioning .
F: You know .
F: So , region with respect to a time frame is what I would suggest .
F: " Where did you live ? "
F: I mean . What you said .
F: you know , " where where wh where did you live ? " ,
F: or uh , what you were saying , " Languages in the home " .
F: But I think that uh a time frame on the region would be useful
F: instead of " Region now " , say . It 's a little bit unbounded .
B: um so are you suggesting that you put something in about childhood in there .
F: well , you know , there 's this issue of of what age is relevant for the formation of your speech patterns , whatever they are .
B: Well you could distinguish between pre - five and five t five to twelve ,
F: And Oh , that 's interesting .
B: right ?
B: So depending on what someone 's interest was in the formation of the phonetic kinds of categories or whether or whether you 're talking more about their linguistic speech patterns ,
B: you know uh
B: so
B: But , again , it depends how fine we wanna get ,
B: but we could say uh " where did you live before you were five ? " ,
B: " where did you live after you were five ? " ,
B: I don't know .
F: Oh that 's interesting .
F: from five to fifteen or something , is a B: yeah
A: I mean , I think the question on regions is really to ask people how did they define their dialect region now ,
A: di
A: the whether they picked it up at the one age or another .
A: pretty much , I mean , most people will know whether they have a southern accent or not .
F: Mm - hmm .
A: um , but they may have lived you know , in other places , too .
A: So if we ask the question about dialect regions , it makes no sense to say where do you live now .
D: Right .
A: Right ?
A: You ask how would you best define your your accent or your dialect style .
B: Right .
D: Right , the way the way the form reads now , I think it 's pretty clear that 's what we 're asking cuz it says " Native English speakers , Variety of English , American , British , Indian , Other , Region " .
A: OK
F: Mm - hmm .
D: And then we 'll have Southern English , you know , whatever whatever the TIMIT categories are .
D: So I think i if you look at this fr
A: Or you could say to somebody , how do you define your your the accent that you have .
D: Right .
A: um And then you can ask these other questions as well ,
A: but what we don't want them to think is that they 're living in a certain place
A: and that therefore they 're A: I mean , nowadays hardly anybody from California has a native Californian accent ,
B: Right .
F: Yeah .
F: Well I I g
F: OK .
A: so .
F: I don't think it was ever the intent to talk about the region now ,
F: because
D: Right , so I it seems to me that if you read this form , i w it 's pretty obvious that it 's a subcategory of the language that you think you speak ,
A: OK ,
F: It 's It 's a sub - categorization .
A: as long as it 's clear .
F: Mm - hmm .
D: not where you live .
D: I mean , I don't say anything about where you live on the form .
A: OK .
F: Yeah .
A: OK .
B: OK .
D: So it 's just in the section talking about language .
A: OK .
B: Why don't we try it out . and see  see what kind of responses we get from people .
D: Yeah .
A: Yeah ,
B: Anyway .
D: And then uh , as Jane said , the last question is " List other language influences , bilingual dialects , et cetera . "
D: And that 's just and open - ended place for them to do .
A: Oh .
A: Mm - hmm .
A: Sounds good .
F: That 's to handle that unusual percent or two .
D: And then F: Yeah .
D: And then the bottom of the form is for not for them to fill out , but for us to fill out , for um the aliases and database speaker database that the person is in , since we 'll eventually anonymize
D: and this will be a form a place for us to connect the two .
D: And then the meetings that they attended ,
A: Mm - hmm .
D: because there 'll be one form for each person .
A: Sounds good .
F: It 's very efficient .
D: OK . So .
D: Yeah , I guess I 'll fiddle around yet again with the language stuff .
E: I don't think you really have to do all that much .
B: d I
B: yeah .
A: It it gets into a can of worms .
F: Well , you F: Mm - hmm .
A: I mean , the more you ask , the more you realize that you 're not getting great answers to what you 're asking and E: Yeah .
E: N Right . Yeah .
F: Well , y you didn't really talk about the non - English speaker categories .
A: So .
D: Right .
D: So , there 's another area which is non - native English speakers which asks for Native language , Region , and Variety of English .
D: And that 's it .
F: Because it used to be that Germans would learn British English , and now I think there 's , you know , is a certain percentage of them who who 've @ @ to tend toward American English .
E: N detec
A: What about proficiency in English ? as well ?
D: Proficiency .
D: That 's a good idea .
B: Uh , I F: That 's hard though , for self - identification A: I A: You don't want to do it for political reasons ,
C: Hmm .
A: I mean I 'm no I wasn't thinking about that ,
A: I was just thinking , " Gee , I 'd like to know actually "
B: I wasn't thinking B: oh No , no .
B: I wasn't thinking political at all .
A: Oh , OK .
B: I was just saying , looking at applications of people over the years for post - docs here .
B: They 're r generally not very good at assessing their own abilities .
D: Well , do you think that 's That 's also because they know that it 's a re important for them to be good at it .
B: but A: OK .
F: I agree .
B: That could be .
D: So , don't don't you think they overrate rather than underrate ?
B: That could be .
B: Yes .
A: Well , so maybe that 's D: So , but
D: no , I think proficiency is actually a good thing to have on this sort of form .
A: Maybe we maybe we shouldn't ask it ,
D: The the question are what are what would the categories be ?
A: I don't know .
F: Well , e  I 'd F: I 'd have to I I 'd wanna relate it back to training .
B: Good ,
B: Bad .
F: " How many years did you study English " ,
F: or , you know , " have you lived in the America in a c an English country before " .
F: But it seems like that 's so F: I mean , I think that you know , if a person who A: What about something like " How comfortable are you in a meeting conducted in English ? " ,
A: or " How easy is it for you ? " ,
A: or something like that where it 's B: How b How About " How long have you been uh in in an English speaking country ? "
A: Yeah , that 's a good one .
C: Yeah .
F: That 'd be OK .
C: Yeah .
A: Something A: wha what do you think ,
A: what 's it C: Is better .
A: I mean C: I think it 's better .
A: How A: yeah ?
A: How long have you been in an English speaking country .
C: Yeah .
A: OK .
F: Yeah , I like that .
F: I like that .
F: That 's that 's non - threatening , and it 's also an i a good indicator .
B: Yeah
F: And there are people who haven't ever lived in an English speaking country and who are superb .
F: However , um , that 's you know I do think it 's a pretty good indicator .
C: Mmm .
E: And then there will be people who live in an English speaking country , but all their meetings are held in another language .
F: That 's true too .
F: Or even , you know , I mean , some people who just don't change much in their E: So ,
C: Yeah .
D: Yeah , I 'm I don't know .
C: Yeah .
E: Yochai 's company is like that .
D: Being totally monolingual , I 'm not the right person to ask , to talk about this
E: Everybody speaks Hebrew .
B: Really ?
D: but it just seems to me that that doesn't the length of time doesn't really get at what we 're asking .
D: Right ?
D: It seems to be that asking about the proficiency , even if it 's self - rated , is what we wanna know .
F: Except that you have some many biasing factors ,
B: Yeah .
F: you have you have people who are highly confident when they really should be a little bit less confident ,
F: and then you have , uh other people who are just the reverse , and and it B: Yes .
F: so many things that vary I F: And also we wanna keep it simple and non - evaluative .
D: Mm - hmm .
D: OK .
B: We done ?
D: With that form .
B: Yeah .
B: Oh , there 's another form .
D: Shall we wait for other forms later , or you Keep going more form B: No , you got what 's the other form ?
D: Uh , the other form is a modified digits form .
D: uh and it 's pretty sim this one 's pretty simple ,
D: it 's it 's very much what like the digits forms in front of us , except it doesn't ha ask for sex or native language .
D: Um , so it 's Name , Email , Time , Date , Seat , Session , Mike number , Channel , Mike type .
F: Why do we need that much information ,
F: why do we need the email address , for example ?
D: Uh , in case people have the same name .
F: Oh , I see .
F: How often would that happen ?
B: In case people what ?
D: So I wanted D: Have the same name .
B: Oh .
D: Yeah , I 'm particularly sensitive to this cuz a good friend of mine in S in Seattle was named Scott Smith and there were fourteen of them in at Boeing .
F: I see .
D: So <comment> We could drop email .
F: So the only so D: I mean that 's not a big deal ,
D: it 's just uh F: Well , it 's an it 's an interesting identifier , I I now that I realize the und the reason for it .
F: The That 's true too .
B: Well the other thing is that potentially if this is done over a period of time , someone 's email could change .
D: Right .
D: Well , the other way I was thinking about it was assigning them an ID
F: Yeah .
D: but I hate it when people do that to me ,
D: when they say , here 's you ID ,
D: don't forget it .
B: Oh yeah , that 's bad .
D: So , I I wanted just something that would give us a hint of who the person is if the name field isn't readable or it 's a duplicate .
B: Thanks
F: That 's interesting .
A: How about their birthday ?
F: Good idea .
A: I don't know .