i ordered a men's size 4 which should be the equivalent of a women's size 6 which would have fit my 8 yo son (sorry if that doesn't make sense), but these are too small for him.  I can only assume the men's size 4 is actually a kid's size 4 which is tiny.  I'm returning them.  Everything else looks good although they seem a bit stiff although that would probably change with wear.