jiebi/CodeConvo huggingface dataset:
And a reference should be added for these definitions in the context of video streaming. Section 5.5.2 Head-of-Line Blocking If Head-of-Line Blocking is indeed a relevant operational problem, it would be useful to add a corresponding reference (e.g., with measurements). Section 5.5.3. Wide and Rapid Variation in Path Capacity The statement "As many end devices have moved to wireless connectivity for the final hop (Wi-Fi, 5G, or LTE), new problems in bandwidth detction have emerged from radio interference and signal strength effects." could be moved to earlier parts of the document. Quite a bit of new computers apparently only have Wifi connectivity and no Ethernet port, i.e., Wifi may just be their default. Also, wireless may not only be used on the last hop, for instance in meshed setups. This may make the problem even harder. Section 6. Evolution of Transport Protocols and Transport Protocol Behaviors I really wonder whether UDP vs. TCP vs. QUIC is actually the relevant distinction. What may actually matter are the transport services provided by the protocol stack (e.g., RFC 8095). I fully agree to a related comment in the INTDIR review. Section 6.1. UDP and Its Behavior UDP is also used for encrypted tunnels (OpenVPN, Wireguard, etc.). Does encrypted tunneling really have no operational impact on streaming apps other than circuit breakers? (I am thinking about 4K streaming over OpenVPN and the like.) Section 6.2. TCP and Its Behavior This text should IMHO be presented and be discussed in TCPM. Personally, I am not convinced that this document is a good place for discussing the long history of TCP congestion control. If the objective of the document is to provide a tutorial, IMHO it would be more useful to briefly explain the state-of-the-art in year 2022. Some further specific comments on TCP congestion control: It is surprising that RFC 5681 is not referenced.793bis has normative statements regarding congestion control, and most stacks are compatible to what is written in 793bis. Several operating systems use CUBIC by default and support standard Reno. Another general good reference for TCP standards is RFC 7414.Does ECN, DCTCP, etc.
really not matter at all, for instance, if a data center hosts video playout servers? Section 6.3. QUIC and Its Behavior As already noted, the discussion about head-of-line-blocking would really benefit from backing by a reference. Section 7. Streaming Encrypted Media As far as I know, streaming users sometimes use encrypted tunnels such as OpenVPN or WireGuard (or IPsec) to access video content. I may miss something, but it is unclear to me how that fits into the categories presented in Section
This PR is one potential way to It simplifies route exchanges by going with NAME 's suggestion of sending the entire routing table each time something changes. It could be somewhat inefficient in some cases, but it becomes easier to reason about than what's currently in the draft when overlapping prefixes are involved.
This is interesting, but I'd prefer to wait to do this until after we post a -00 version. NAME is that OK with you?
I'd prefer we figure this out before -00, because this would be a pretty significant non-compatible change and I'd like to implement -00
NAME you nearly convinced me in the call that we rather want to announce ranges separately but I forgot why. Can you outline your reasoning again?
NAME my argument was that we shouldn't have two different ways to set routes, one that gives a table and one that gives a single route. If we go to only have a table, then it's fine.
I know saw the discussion in and support this approach. Also if we agree on this approach, I also think we should merge it before we submit -00
NAME I think we're ready to merge this PR
As discussed in , turning a sequence of ROUTEADVERTISEMENT and ROUTEWITHDRAWAL capsules into a functional routing table isn't as simple as initially expected. This is because two separate capsules can describe prefixes that are distinct but overlap. We should simplify the design or better explain the caveats.
I think this looks good enough to include in the -00.
Originally raised by Magnus: Section 5.1.1: R-2 [RFC5764] MUST be supported for signaling the UDP/TLS/RTP/SAVPF [RFC5764], TCP/DTLS/RTP/SAVPF [I-D.nandakumar-mmusic-proto-iana-registration], "UDP/DTLS/ SCTP" [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp], and "TCP/DTLS/SCTP" [I-D.ietf-mmusic-sctp-sdp] RTP profiles. I would note that [I-D.nandakumar-mmusic-proto-iana-registration] is actually published as RFC 7850. Section 5.1.1: R-12 [RFC5761] MUST be implemented to signal multiplexing of RTP and RTCP. This should include the updated as ref also.
We previously derived the acceptance signal from the handshake secret. This meant that clients which used the wrong ECHConfig might need to process ServerHello extensions twice before computing the signal, which can be problematic for some libraries. Given that the signal's secrecy is entirely dependent on URL, we can relax the signal computation and base it on the transcript alone, which includes URL, rather than a secret derived from that transcript. cc NAME NAME NAME
Yep, good change. Thanks, S.
Encoding the "ECH worked" signal in the URL lower octets is, at best, ugly. It also arguably causes violation of internal API designs in at least the OpenSSL code. And I'm not sure if there might be some interaction between that and ticket handling (just from the look of some code I've yet to understand really.) Do we really need such a hacky solution? Given the ECH sticks out in the CH, we could just define a non-encrypted extension in the SH to include the confirmation value maybe (though even that is pretty hacky).
I have some sympathy for this, but the point of this signal design was to make it difficult to distinguish GREASE from non-GREASE ECH.
Could you elaborate on the concern with ticket handling? I'm not sure I see how tickets would relate to this.
Sorry for being slow - should get to looking again at that bit of code in a few days. S
Just to synchronize the discussion across list/GitHub a bit, this was discussed a bit in URL I agree with NAME now that there's some fiddly interactions from two ClientHellos and ServerHello. I sketched out a possible change sketched out in URL We could compute ClientHelloInner...ServerHelloECHConf as in the draft right now. But then rather than feed that into the handshake secret computation, just rely on that transcript containing a secret URL and computing F(transcript). (Hash it down, KDF it with zero secret, whatever.) One observation is that, while this relies oddly on a secret URL, the existing construction does too. An attacker constructing a ServerHello gets to pick ServerHello.keyshare and, with knowledge of ClientHello.keyshare, compute the resulting shared secret.
One further observation here is that if the client uses the same shares for CHInner and CHOuter, the double key derivation piece doesn't really need to apply.
For my own reference, I just wanted to flag something that we've discussed on the list: the current acceptance signal interacts with PSK in a way that could easily cause a bug in an implementation that hasn't carefully vetted this interaction.
dns records are 8 bit clean and rfc 6763 is an example of a TXT record carrying arbitrary data
:+1: Base64 is not only complication. It is a space overhead for a large object like ESNIKeys. Seeing corruption of binary will be rare; we can detect them by validating the checksum and fallback to non-ESNI in such case. So why not go for binary? FWIW, base64 was introduced in .
This is solved in which removes base64 with new ESNI RR type.
We only added this since TXT records were claimed to not work well with binary, per Christian’s suggestion. I’m fine either way.
Thanks for the info. I found URL, in which NAME asks: We know that we can store more than 128 octets in TXT record, and that we have a precedent that uses TXT to store binary data, as NAME has pointed out. Regarding configurability, my understanding is that RFC 1035 defines how binary TXT records can be specified in a zone file, and therefore many DNS server "softwares" support having such records. Googling also tells me that managed DNS services like Route 53 and Azure DNS provide the capability, although surprisingly they use different escape sequences ( uses + 3 octal, uses + 3 decimal).
I do not think it’s a complication, and I’m not convinced space is an issue as per your comment above.
only tangentially related - NAME do you know why your URL txt record is broken into 127 char strings instead of 255? Is there a bug being worked around somewhere?
NAME Oh I did not notice that. I am using tinydns (of djbdns), and it seems like tinydns works that way (see URL).
NAME The issue about the size is that with base64 we might hit the 512-octet threshold when publishing keys of multiple strengths. As an example, query for URL currently returns a 186-byte response, which contains just secp256r1 key. If we add secp384r1 and secp521r1, I'd assume that the size will come near to 490 octets.
In other words, for longer hostnames we will hit the 512-octet threshold if we publish three keys. If we avoid the base64 encoding, we will have enough room to store 3 ECDH keys that can provide 128-, 192-, 256-bit-level security. I do not think this argument is strong enough to prohibit the use of base64 for the following reasons: we will be using DoH / DNS over TLS between the client and the resolver we might be using DNS over UDP that has the 512-octet threshold between the resolver and the authoritative server, but we would want that to migrate to DNSSEC or something even better we might be just fine with publishing only two keys: X25519, X448 But it does make me prefer not to have the overhead of base64, if that is possible.
Fixed in .
Seems fine to me. Christian Huitema wrote: computation per se. Actually doing trial decryption with the secret requires reaching down into the record layer. This is especially onerous for QUIC, where the record layer is offloaded to another protocol (often outside the TLS library). I think going back to full trial decryption would still considerably increase the cost of implementing ECH over the current draft. That said, I do agree that even the first part seems more onerous than expected and it's worth reconsidering things. We switched using just the randoms to the full handshake secret to mitigate some issues. Perhaps there's an intermediate point that still mitigates those issues but avoids the expensive part of the secret computation? What if we kept the ClientHelloInner...ServerHelloECHConf transcript as in the current draft, but derived the signal exclusively from that? (Or from the client random and that transcript, though the transcript includes the client random anyway.) We'll still bind in the ServerHello extensions, and it still includes the encrypted inner ClientHello random, as in the randoms formulation. It doesn't do the job as clearly as the handshake secret did, but maybe it'll work? Implementation-wise, this variant would not require actually processing the ServerHello extensions. David
Hi all, I raised a github issue [1] related to (but different from) this but would prefer a discussion via email if that's ok. Depending how this goes, I can create a new GH issue I guess.
ECH draft-09 (and -10) requires the client to verify that the server has processed ECH by comparing 8 octets in the URL with a value one can only know if you know the inner CH octets and (pretty much all) the rest of the h/s so far. That seemingly removes the need for the client to maybe decrypt twice (once based on inner CH, once based on outer) to see what works. That can be implemented ok for the nominal case. As far as I can see that was the result of github issue [2] back in Aug/Sep 2020. But in error cases that seems to require the client to possibly process the same ServerHello extensions twice, which could have side effects, is generally ickky and I think shows that this aspect of the design maybe needs a change. That's not much different from trial decryption really. In my current, (and still horrible;-), OpenSSL code the minimal effect is memory leaks for error cases that are tricky to handle, but can be handled, although at the expense of probably making the code even more brittle. (Note: I'm neither defending nor attacking the way OpenSSL handles extensions here:-) The specific problem is one needs the handshake secret to calculate the 8 octets one expects in the URL, but generating the handshake secret typically involves a key share ServerHello extension and might in future involve some PQC stuff, so I think we can't say for sure which subset of extensions are needed for the calculation. And if the first time doesn't give the right answer (e.g. if the client used the wrong ECHConfig) then you gotta process the ServerHello incl. its extensions a 2nd time. I think the requirement we ought try meet here is that any confirmation value needs to be something the client can calculate using values known before the SH is rx'd plus the ServerHello as a (mostly) unprocessed buffer. That could be e.g. some hash of the encoded inner CH, ECHConfig and the ServerHello maybe. Some of those issues were discussed in [2] already and in an interim meeting I missed but I reckon it might be worthwhile thinking again. Thanks, S. [1] URL [2] URL
It seems like there's a major thing missing here, namely how the sender of a Commit transmits the new node signatures to the other members of the group. We need something like that before this lands. The most obvious approach would be to add a field to DirectPathNode, as you have with RatchetNode.
It would also be handy to include in the intermediate node an indication of which leaf signed it. Otherwise you have to do "trial verifications" (cf. trial decryption), which is expensive.
Was this addressed? it's mentioned that the signature should be transmitted in "Synchronizing Views of the Tree" but there's no signature in the transmitted DirectPathNode
NAME changes the strategy for signing the tree, everything should be sorted out there.
Here's the Weekly Digest for : - - Last week 8 issues were created. Of these, 0 issues have been closed and 8 issues are still open. :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :speaker: , by It received 1 comments. - - Last week, 6 pull requests were created, updated or merged. Last week, 1 pull request was opened. :greenheart: , by Last week, 3 pull requests were updated. :yellowheart: , by :yellowheart: , by :yellowheart: , by Last week, 2 pull requests were merged. :purpleheart: , by :purpleheart: , by - - Last week there were 10 commits. :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by - - Last week there were 2 contributors. :bustinsilhouette: :bustin_silhouette: - - Last week there was 1 stargazer. :star: You are the star! :star2: - - Last week there were no releases.
- - That's all for last week, please :eyes: Watch and :star: Star the repository to receive next weekly updates. :smiley: You can also .
Here's the Weekly Digest for : - - Last week 4 issues were created. Of these, 0 issues have been closed and 4 issues are still open. :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by - - Last week, 14 pull requests were created, updated or merged. Last week, 8 pull requests were updated. :yellowheart: , by :yellowheart: , by :yellowheart: , by :yellowheart: , by :yellowheart: , by :yellowheart: , by :yellowheart: , by :yellowheart: , by Last week, 6 pull requests were merged. :purpleheart: , by :purpleheart: , by :purpleheart: , by :purpleheart: , by :purpleheart: , by :purpleheart: , by - - Last week there were 10 commits. :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by - - Last week there were 3 contributors. :bustinsilhouette: :bustinsilhouette: :bustinsilhouette: - - Last week there were no stargazers. - - Last week there were no releases. - - That's all for last week, please :eyes: Watch and :star: Star the repository to receive next weekly updates. :smiley: You can also .
Here's the Weekly Digest for : - - Last week 11 issues were created. Of these, 1 issues have been closed and 10 issues are still open. :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :heart: , by :speaker: , by It received 2 comments.
- - Last week, 11 pull requests were created, updated or merged. Last week, 6 pull requests were opened. :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by :greenheart: , by Last week, 4 pull requests were updated. :yellowheart: , by :yellowheart: , by :yellowheart: , by :yellowheart: , by Last week, 1 pull request was merged. :purpleheart: , by - - Last week there were 2 commits. :hammerandwrench: by :hammerandwrench: by - - Last week there were 2 contributors. :bustinsilhouette: :bustin_silhouette: - - Last week there were 2 stagazers. :star: :star: You all are the stars! :star2: - - Last week there were no releases. - - That's all for last week, please :eyes: Watch and :star: Star the repository to receive next weekly updates. :smiley: You can also .
There are two changes in this PR: Pull the extension to the TLS syntax up into the Terminology section Add an extension that lets vectors have variable-length headers, allowing them to be efficient at small sizes while also accommodating large sizes All vectors are converted to the variable-length header representation. It seems like this should simplify implementation, since the encoder will no longer have to be told how many bytes of header to use for a given vector. This has been the source of several annoying interop bugs.
Looks great! I only have a small objection: there is now several valid ways to serialize a length, as the example shows, both and are valid ways to encode 37. This means that if you parse a structure, and later want to re-serialize it to check a signature for example, you need to remember how many bits were used to store the length. In short, we loose the property that . The fix is easy: can we add that "the length MUST be stored using the smallest amount of bits possible"?
Good point, updated!
I wasn't clear under which circumstances you would use a longer length with a number that would fit in a smaller range. If never, then the table should be:
DIscussion on virtual interim Some concern about being able to send gigantic stuff In adversarial cases, the 4-byte headers used for a lot of stuff might already be a problem Could also have length constraints decoupled from the syntax SIP experience shows that imposing arbitrary length limits isn't a good idea ... but applications should have a way to signal that things are too big TODO(NAME Advisory text "Beware, things can get big; consider imposing limits and clear failure cases for this" Consider streaming implementations, where you might not know that the whole message fits in memory Modulo the above TODO, clear to merge
This addresses . cc NAME NAME NAME NAME NAME
This looks fine, though I'll note that since an HTTPSSVC record is public and the outer ClientHello record is public, it's not unreasonable to pull values from there to put in the public fields since the observer already knows (or can get) them. Restricting them to come only from the ECHOConfig seems unnecessary. I think the key observation in this PR is that the outer ClientHello isn't really offering to establish a TLS connection -- it's a not-crazy-looking wrapper for the actual ClientHello inside the ECHO extension, and the vehicle for the recovery flow. The only things a server can legitimately do are respond to the inner ClientHello or do a recovery handshake. Thus, most of the things you might set on the outer ClientHello are irrelevant; they can be chosen to look innocuous, chosen at random, or copied from the inner ClientHello as the implementation chooses.
NAME does this seem reasonable to you?
Seems reasonable.
LGTM
I have a doubt about why an SRC for the CTR is needed at all and if a global counter for all streams would be equally secure in terms forming the IV or was due to implementation details to be able to have different context for each streams?
Because the key is used to encrypt all outgoing stream, we need a global counter for the IV to avoid counter reuse. If we use the frame counter only, then each stream will have their own counter and IV will collide
If the frame counter is global for the participant instead that per stream, i.e. increased whenever a new frame is encoded regarding the media stream, there would be no IV collision.
Correct. But I imagine this will be more complex to implement, having a single global counter across all media sources including audio and video
Prepared a PR to change it to a global counter, however I want to make sure I understand how the counter is maintained globally, If the frame N is encrypted in 3 different layers, they will have different counter values right? One potential benefit of having a global counter it will free up some bits in the header which we can use as a keyId (up to 16 keys) which is nice
Yes, each call to the frame encryptor which would require to atomically increment the counter. In the case of the simulcast, the same input image will produce N different encoded frames which would have their unique counter. Regarding the free bits, I was thinking in something like this: If x=0 then K is the key id ( 0-7) if x=1 then K is the length of the key that is inserted before the This would allow to avoid the extra byte for conferences with less than 9 participants. Another option would be to always use the KLEN/KEYID and reserve that bit for extensions in the future.
I like it :-)
This is a simple rename of to to be more descriptive of the action being performed by the message. I'll open a separate PR after this PIR is merged with updates to the spec where it uses when instead it should say (since not every actually ratchets forward key material, as I understand). Some examples of where these clarifications should happen are: Line 1203 should instead say "each MLS UpdatePath message" The sections "Ratchet Tree Evolution" and "Sychronizing Views of the Tree" should describe the process of generating the key material for an message cc NAME
DirectPath corresponds to the graph theory term "direct path" of a leaf with the root
"Direct path" is still a thing, and the object in question here operates along a direct path, but I think "UpdatePath" indicates more clearly what it's doing.