jiebi/CodeConvo huggingface dataset:
…transport protocols Also tighten up description of the assumed protocol stack in (what is now) Section 6.1. Note that the UDP and TCP sections have been flipped in order, to improve section flow and clarity.
NAME - If you have a moment before our call on Friday to take a look at this PR, I'd appreciate it. I think it's important to to get that right, in order to address both the INTDIR and TSVART reviews.
From NAME As a bit of transport commentary, I don't find the setup of Section 6 compelling. While UDP is a transport in a technical sense, for the purpose of media, it is almost always a layer upon which the protocol doing the congestion control work runs. To that end, QUIC is just another more standardized case of this, just like SCTP over UDP. Rather than talking about "UDP's behavior" vs "TCP's behavior", I suggest talking about how applications over UDP for media behave vs applications over TCP for media behave.
NAME - I need to look at this more closely. I understand your point about UDP, but (because UDP is not a real transport layer, while TCP and QUIC are), I suspect (without looking closely yet) I'm going to be making sure that I explain this more clearly, without trying to explain the behavior(s) of applications running over TCP and QUIC. As an aside, I'm trying to make this clearer in drafts I'm targeting forwards Media Over QUIC/MOQ, so I actually DO believe you ... Please await results.
A +1 from NAME 's review (URL): Section 6. Evolution of Transport Protocols and Transport Protocol Behaviors I really wonder whether UDP vs. TCP vs. QUIC is actually the relevant distinction. What may actually matter are the transport services provided by the protocol stack (e.g., RFC 8095). I fully agree to a related comment in the INTDIR review.
After looking at this issue. I agree with both NAME and NAME that the emphasis should be on the interaction between (see new section describing this) media transport protocols and the transport services provided by underlying transport protocols. I'm moving the formerly-UDP section below the formerly-TCP section, because it's easier to describe what UDP is NOT doing after describing what TCP IS doing.
I'm also moving one paragraph into the formerly-TCP section from Section 6, because it is specific to ABR strategies that assume a reliable transport. More news to come, when I create a PR for this issue ...
We think is now mergrable. Reviewer: Michael Scharf Review result: Ready with Issues This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team's ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the document's authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the IETF discussion list for information. When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC EMAIL if you reply to or forward this review. This informational document surveys network and transport protocol issues that affect quality of experience for streaming applications, in particular video. The overview covers many topics across different technologies. Readers may only be familiar with a subset of these topics and could therefore learn quite a bit from this kind of tutorial. Nonetheless, it remains somewhat unclear what the actual objective of some of the text is. For some topics, quite a bit of technical background is provided, but the discussion is not really comprehensive. In many sections, the document neither derives technical challenges, nor system/protocol requirements, nor practical usage guidance. It is just a kind of tutorial. Quite a bit of text also presents ongoing IETF work, and an RFC with this scope may thus get outdated soon. Section 6.2 deals with topics owned by TCPM. In similar past documents, I have asked for a TCPM presentation prior to an IETF last call in order to ensure that owners of running code are in the loop. I believe this strategy has worked well in the past. Having said this, as TSV-ART reviewer I don't strongly disagree with a publication. All these issues may just be OK for an informational RFC. Some more specific comments: Section 3.2.1. Recognizing Changes from an Expected Baseline This section apparently assumes relatively static path properties, e.g., fixed network connectivity. It would be more useful to analyze the impact of Wifi and 4G/5G networks in one place.
Some of this follows later in sections 3.2.1 and Yet, the split between these three sections is unclear. Having a discussion about today's Internet path characteristics and the dynamics at one place could be more useful. The text could also better distinguish between what matters to endpoints and considerations relevant only for middleboxes (such as passive monitors). Section 3.3 Path Requirements The statement "to find the bandwidth requirements for a router on the delivery path" may assume that the bottleneck on the path will be routers. Yet, on a path the bottlenecks could also be a link layer device (e.g., an Ethernet Switch, a Wifi access point, etc.). RFC 6077 (specifically Section 3.1.3) also explains that issue. A better wording may be "to find the bandwidth requirements for a delivery path". Section 3.6. Unpredictable Usage Profiles / Section 3.7. Extremely Unpredictable Usage Profiles I am not fully convinced by the distinction between "unpredictable" and "extremely unpredictable". To me, these two sections could be merged and maybe also be shortened. More specifically, Section 3.7 lists a lot of statistics from the past. What is IMHO a bit missing in Section 3.7 are actual operational considerations. For instance, are there any lessons learnt for the future? Note that Section 3.6 has a reasonable conclusion at the end. Section 4. Latency Considerations and Section 4.1. Ultra Low-Latency I am surprised by the definition "ultra low-latency (less than 1 second)", as well as some of the other numbers. For other real-time communication use cases, "ultra low-latency" would probably imply a latency requirement of the order of one millisecond. For instance, isochronous traffic for motion control in industrial networks may require a latency of 1 ms, and such "ultra-low latency" requirements are discussed elsewhere, e.g., in the DetNet WG. The terminology in this section should be better explained to readers dealing with networked systems with much harder latency requirements. And a reference should be added for these definitions in the context of video streaming.
Section 5.5.2 Head-of-Line Blocking If Head-of-Line Blocking is indeed a relevant operational problem, it would be useful to add a corresponding reference (e.g., with measurements). Section 5.5.3. Wide and Rapid Variation in Path Capacity The statement "As many end devices have moved to wireless connectivity for the final hop (Wi-Fi, 5G, or LTE), new problems in bandwidth detction have emerged from radio interference and signal strength effects." could be moved to earlier parts of the document. Quite a bit of new computers apparently only have Wifi connectivity and no Ethernet port, i.e., Wifi may just be their default. Also, wireless may not only be used on the last hop, for instance in meshed setups. This may make the problem even harder. Section 6. Evolution of Transport Protocols and Transport Protocol Behaviors I really wonder whether UDP vs. TCP vs. QUIC is actually the relevant distinction. What may actually matter are the transport services provided by the protocol stack (e.g., RFC 8095). I fully agree to a related comment in the INTDIR review. Section 6.1. UDP and Its Behavior UDP is also used for encrypted tunnels (OpenVPN, Wireguard, etc.). Does encrypted tunneling really have no operational impact on streaming apps other than circuit breakers? (I am thinking about 4K streaming over OpenVPN and the like.) Section 6.2. TCP and Its Behavior This text should IMHO be presented and be discussed in TCPM. Personally, I am not convinced that this document is a good place for discussing the long history of TCP congestion control. If the objective of the document is to provide a tutorial, IMHO it would be more useful to briefly explain the state-of-the-art in year 2022. Some further specific comments on TCP congestion control: It is surprising that RFC 5681 is not referenced.793bis has normative statements regarding congestion control, and most stacks are compatible to what is written in 793bis. Several operating systems use CUBIC by default and support standard Reno. Another general good reference for TCP standards is RFC 7414.Does ECN, DCTCP, etc. really not matter at all, for instance, if a data center hosts video playout servers?
I have committed all request changes. Thank you for the refinements.
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As suggested by Éric Vyncke, mention that the new ciphertext record format provides ContentType encryption and per-record padding in both abstract and introduction.
URL Update from Éric re: Section 6
About "-- Section 3 --, DTLS / zero-length CID" "An extension type MUST NOT appear in the ServerHello unless the same extension type appeared in the corresponding ClientHello." The "zero-length CID" therefore is mainly used for the very common cases, where only the clients are required to send such a CID, but not the server. Maybe adding a hint to RFC5246 7.4.1.4 will help?
About "-- Section 6 --" Yes, that's still very complex: First, processing the record seems to be easier (less restricted), than use a changed source address for sending data back. Using a changed source address for sending data back to, is not generally solved. There are some special case, e.g., if the data sent back is very small, there is no risk (at least, none has explained one). There may also be some upper-layer mechanisms, which helps out (e.g. for coap). And there is a idea of a general solution , but that will require more time. Because of the required time, the idea was to release this spec without RRC and postpone that general work (see also issue ).
also in the abstract ? Some initial attempt at this in
LGTM Éric Vyncke has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-tls-dtls-connection-id-11: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to URL for more information about DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: URL COMMENT: Thank you for the work put into this document. This specification addresses the IPv4-mainly issue of NAT binding and is still required. I am also trusted the security ADs for section 5. Please find below some non-blocking COMMENT points (but replies would be appreciated), and some nits.
I hope that this helps to improve the document, Regards, -éric == COMMENTS == -- Abstract -- As an important part of this document is the padding, should it be mentioned also in the abstract ? -- Section 3 -- While I am not a DTLS expert, I find this section quite difficult to understand the reasoning behind the specification as little explanations are given about, e.g, what is the motivation of "A zero-length value indicates that the server will send with the client's CID but does not wish the client to include a CID." -- Section 6 -- I am puzzled by the text: "There is a strategy for ensuring that the new peer address is able to receive and process DTLS records. No such strategy is defined in this specification." Does this mean that there is no way to update the peer IP address ? == NITS == -- Section 1 -- Please expand CID on first use outside of the abstract. -- Section 4 -- Suggest to add a short paragraph as a preamble to figure 3. Currently, it looks like figure 3 belongs to the 'zeros' field description.
This proposal consolidates normative language into the section on design principles (now requirements), using the suggestions in .
Please review the latest updates!
Early art-art review of draft-ietf-taps-architecture My first observation and request is that the group rethink the separation of the architecture and interface documents. It is a warning-sign that the interface document is a normative reference for the architecture document. As the documents are currently constructed, a new reader cannot grasp the architecture without inferring some of it through reading the interface. Consider reformulating the architecture document as an overview - introduce principles, concepts, and terminology, but don't attempt to be normative. (There are signs that this may already be, or have been, a path the document was being pushed towards). If nothing else, rename it, and acknowledge that the actual architecture is specified using the interface definition. Note that the first sentence of the Overview in the interface document also highlights the current structural problem.
I don't entirely agree with this ART-ART comment: I think I might well agree with moving more of the description to this Arch document, but as discussed before, I also think it useful here to set the actual requirements for the architecture, and to define the architecture. It may need to be much clearer that this architecture consists of more the API.
For completeness, this is the first statement of the interface document review: This document reads fairly well. I have some structural concerns (see the early review of the architecture document). In particular I think this document contains the actual definition of the architecture and some of that is inferential.
Discussion at September 2021 interim: pass through this document with a view toward making it a high level introduction, not an architecture definition: "An Introduction to the Transport Services Architecture". remove normative language from this document (moving it to API, where necessary). move details not useful in a high level intro to API.
I disagree with this conclusion at first pass—we did a specific analysis and pass on this over a year ago, with PR . The normative language and the standards-track aspect was very intentional and something the WG had consensus on. The point is that the API is a specific incarnation of the TAPS architecture, but there are overarching architectural properties that go beyond a specific abstract API.
I completely agree with Tommy here, and recommend we fix this in . We should also of course check for any stray text or missing concepts.
I think it would also be useful to somehow better explain that in figure 3 the API function is ONE part of the system.
See linked PR first please to see if this resolves this?
A PR was merged that addressed important text issues with separation of requirements and overview, and should more clearly set out that the requirements are for the system. The question of whether the overall TAPS systems requirements belong in this ID; the API; or a separate RFC needs some discussion based on the review, before this can be closed.
Many good text improvements in the PR NAME but I noticed two smaller updates in the PR that I think were incorrect. Fixed in
The review comment showed were many places where the wording of architecture can be improved. There are some high level principles that I think should remain in the architecture document. The decision in today's interim is to review the architecture to get this more into a shape that is valuable as a reference, and then check the updated draft.
I now suggest the issues are addressed and we close this issue without moving text between documents
I agree with that; closing.
Overall review: I think we need to keep the normative language for the key features that differentiate the API. I'd really like to use REQUIRED, RECOMMENDED, rather MUST and SHOULD - because these are not protocol operation requirements, but are implementation requirements to conform. This includes requirements based on Minset - where the WG dervied this API: This is after all why the WG worked on Minset as the basis of the API. I suggest we group all the requirements on architecture as short one or two sentence blocks (preferably as a bullet or definition list) collected into a single subsection, so they are easy to find and read and we say that these are the key architectural requirements. We insert this new requirements text either their own section, or in section 1.3 (although I am open to other places where we can call-out the architectural requirements). The following are key requirements, that define the TAPS architecture: It is RECOMMENDED that functionality that is common across multiple transport protocols is made accessible through a unified set of TAPS interface calls. As a baseline, a Transport Services system interface is REQUIRED to allow access to the minimal set of features offered by transport protocols {{?I-D.ietf-taps-minset}}.
A Transport Services system automates the selection of protocols and features and network, based on a set of Properties supplied through the TAPS interface. It is RECOMMENDED that a Transport Services system offers Properties that are common to multiple transport protocols. Specifying common Properties enables a system to appropriately select between protocols that offer equivalent features. This design permits evolution of the transport protocols and functions without affecting the programs using the system. Specifying common Properties enables a Transport Services system to appropriately select an appropriate network interface. It is RECOMMENDED that a system offers Properties that are common to a variety network layer interfaces and paths. This design permits racing of different network paths without affecting the programs using the system. Applications using the Transport Services system interface are REQUIRED to be robust to the automated selection provided by the system, including the possibility to express requirements and preferences that constrain the choices that can be made by the system. If two different Protocol Stacks can be safely swapped, or raced in parallel (see Section 4.2.2), by the Transport Services system then they are considered to be "equivalent". Equivalent Protocol Stacks need to meet the requirements for racing specified in section XX. Applications using a Transport Services system MAY explicitly require or prevent the use of specific transport features (and transport protocols) and XXXinterfaces using the "REQUIRED" and "PROHIBIT" preferences. This allows an application to constrain the set of protocols and features that will be selected for the transport service. It is RECOMMENDED that the default usage by applications does not necessarily restrict this selection, so that the system can make informed choices (e.g., based on the availability of interfaces or set of transport protocols available for the specified remote endpoint). When a Transport Services system races between two different Protocol Stacks, both SHOULD use the same security protocols and options. However, a Transport Services system MAY race different security protocols, e.g., if the application explicitly specifies that it considers them equivalent. Transport Services systems MUST NOT automatically fall back from secure protocols to insecure protocols, or to weaker versions of secure protocols. A Transport Services system MAY allow applications to specify that fallback to a specific other version of a protocol is allowed. It is RECOMMENDED that in normal use, a Transport Services system is designed so that all selection decisions result in consistent choices for the same network conditions when they have the same set of preferences.
This is intended to provide predictable outcomes to the application using the transport service. I would then suggest to use lower case within other parts of the document - except were pointed to from here, (we could refer to the requirements subsection, if we thought necessary).
for discussion at the interim, but IMO we could start the interim with a PR based on these suggestions and work from there.
I suspect that we need more protocol-specific properties to be able to talk to various kinds of native protocol peers (other than TCP and UDP: these should already work fine with what we have, I believe). A concrete example: we're hiding stream numbers. In NEAT, we needed to make them configurable though, because we wanted a NEAT client to be able to talk to a native SCTP server, where an application may expect certain type of data to arrive via a certain stream number. I suspect that we may need something similar for a QUIC peer. Should we address this? (I'd say yes) How .. is it a protocol-specific (per-Message) property? (I'd say yes... and perhaps a per-Connection property too, with text explaining that the per-Message one automatically becomes the Connection default unless otherwise specified) What other such things are we missing... what other expectations may e.g. a native QUIC or SCTP application have that we just cannot fulfil with our current system?