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Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

Originally Posted by Ganfar

So you mean that if they discard our top in turn 1, there is only downhill afterwards.  And that's way we can't play Grim Flayer?  Ofc the oppment will interact with us and we get cards in the graveyard. 

It's not about get Grim Flayer as 4/4 soon as possible, it's about Grim Flayer can help us dig for the cards we want.  Have you ever top and seen land, explore and another top that you don't want?  Yes ofc you have.  Grim Flayer will dump all three cards in the graveyard and become bigger.  He doesn't need to be 4/4 on turn 2 or 3, he becomes bigger later like Gofy. 

Connecting with a 2/2 for 2 isn't exactly reliable.  He gets stonewalled by a lot of decks, including often by Goyf.  I wouldn't rely on his combat damage trigger at all. 

If you're not getting to connect with Flayer:

- Artifacts basically never hit the graveyard
- Sorceries also are hardly ever there (you only have one that stays there)
- Lands are there, but can be eaten by Deathrite
- Creatures are same as lands
- Deed and Courser of Kruphix can be enchantments in there
- You play 3 instants

Basically you need four out of those above.  You don't have enough ways of killing Deathrite to reliably keep lands or creatures in the graveyard, and same for instants and sorceries.  You have nothing that lets you discard cards or mill yourself unless you're connecting with your 2/2. 

You want to play more removal for Deathrite (Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay), more artifacts or enchantments (probably equipment, maybe Oath of Nissa), planeswalkers (seriously why no Liliana LH?  She's exactly what the deck wants). 

If you're only planning on getting Delirium online in the late game, why are you playing Grim Flayer?  Surely there are better lategame payoff cards you could be playing than a 4/4 for 2. 

Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

Originally Posted by fireiced

Nissa Vital Force (Best in Class)
The best walker in Nic Fit for all builds imho.  Pressures JTMS and kills opposing Liliana of the Veils. 
- 5/5 Trampling Creature land is fantastic as it dodges Abrupt Decay which is currently the most played removal atm, trades with Gurmag Angler and Reality Smasher & tramples over TNNs
- Regrowth ability is fantastic especially so when it brings back deed over and over again
- Emblems very quickly in 2 turns and the CA produced makes Shardless Variants cannot keep up with our CA even via visions

While I agree that Nissa is very good, it's probably worth pointing out that the land she animates does not get Trample, just Haste. 

Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

Originally Posted by gth842s

I like the eye towards consistency and resiliency in your deck construction, for sure, but I guess I just disagree about the idea of running ramp alongside low impact cards and situational / virtual card advantage. 

1 Chameleon Colossus in a format defined by Swords and Terminus isn't exactly a plethora of evasive finishers.  I guess I just feel like you have to draw perfectly to beat Miracles. 

I love the dark depths and the crop rotation experiment, as I've mentioned to you before.  I think it's awesome. 

I think we define card advantage and grinding slightly differently.  Confidant is a great card, but I just don't think that Nic Fit is the right shell for him.  He's so much better when supported by hymns and wastelands and KotR. StE isn't advantage, strangleroot geist is advantage but probably not the kind that's good enough for legacy.  Courser's been discussed a ton on here, and the consensus seems to be that it's borderline.  But honestly, my biggest issue is the low number of deeds and 2 tops instead of 3.  So if it were me, I'd swap out the mediocre cards like Geist and add some more removal or hymns and another top. 

But anyway, I really truly hope you do extremely well with it.  My only point was that it's not how I envision and build Nic Fit.  And I'll be trying out Depths whenever I move on from Sneak for sure! 

Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

1 Chameleon Colossus in a format defined by Swords and Terminus isn't exactly a plethora of evasive finishers.  I guess I just feel like you have to draw perfectly to beat Miracles. 

You would be surprised.  The secret to beating Miracles is card advantage.  They can't beat CA, which is something most Legacy decks are actually pretty short on (the format focuses on quality more than advantage).  That's how this deck beats most decks actually, raw CA beats most decks. 

I think we define card advantage and grinding slightly differently.  Confidant is a great card, but I just don't think that Nic Fit is the right shell for him.  He's so much better when supported by hymns and wastelands and KotR.

It's a different method of achieving the same result.  Those decks try and use attrition cards to strip the opponent of removal and deny them resources to play their cards.  By doing so, their low number of threats survive, hit the opponent, and win the game.  This deck uses the SE approach which instead looks at how much removal a deck is going to draw into if that's their game plan (Miracles has the highest amount), and then plays enough threats (backed by card draw to get them) that they can't remove everything I play.  If your opponent can't remove your threats but you can remove theirs, you eventually win the game. 

But honestly, my biggest issue is the low number of deeds and 2 tops instead of 3.  So if it were me, I'd swap out the mediocre cards like Geist and add some more removal or hymns and another top. 

Deed works better when you have a bunch of 4+ drops and can pop deed for 3.  Since I don't have that, it makes a lot less sense.  Hymns don't work because BB isn't a good cost to pay in this deck.  I would actually like one more SDT, but I cut the 3rd for a Garruk in order to raise the threat density, I'm still evaluating that one.  It helps that I was finding the deck to be a lot faster with the non SDT hands than with the SDT hands. 

Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

Connecting with a 2/2 for 2 isn't exactly reliable.  He gets stonewalled by a lot of decks, including often by Goyf.  I wouldn't rely on his combat damage trigger at all. 

If you're not getting to connect with Flayer:

- Artifacts basically never hit the graveyard
- Sorceries also are hardly ever there (you only have one that stays there)
- Lands are there, but can be eaten by Deathrite
- Creatures are same as lands
- Deed and Courser of Kruphix can be enchantments in there
- You play 3 instants

There are only 5 that are a stone wall that costs 3 mana
Gofy
Thalia
Big Thalia
Knight of Requliry
True Name (If Grim becomes a 4/4, he can trample over 3 dmg and survive another day"

Most cretures in legacy that are two drop are 1/2 or 2/1.  Grim will either become chump block or trade with a trigger.  Trample is real relevnt, elves can't bounce thie creture to avdoid dmg.  Same with Karakas.  Few times Grim Flayer have been stopped by cretures when I have played him. 

Originally Posted by Navsi

Basically you need four out of those above.  You don't have enough ways of killing Deathrite to reliably keep lands or creatures in the graveyard, and same for instants and sorceries.  You have nothing that lets you discard cards or mill yourself unless you're connecting with your 2/2. 

You want to play more removal for Deathrite (Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay), more artifacts or enchantments (probably equipment, maybe Oath of Nissa), planeswalkers (seriously why no Liliana LH?  She's exactly what the deck wants). 

If you're only planning on getting Delirium online in the late game, why are you playing Grim Flayer?  Surely there are better lategame payoff cards you could be playing than a 4/4 for 2. 

Because Grim Flayer can still be played turn two.  Even if he is not a 4/4 on turn two, he is still a great card.  It becme a bouns later when he is a 4/4. 

Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

Originally Posted by fireiced

Would not mind adding my input for the various walkers and their relative power in the various variants. 

Nissa Vital Force (Best in Class)
The best walker in Nic Fit for all builds imho.  Pressures JTMS and kills opposing Liliana of the Veils. 
- 5/5 Trampling Creature land is fantastic as it dodges Abrupt Decay which is currently the most played removal atm, trades with Gurmag Angler and Reality Smasher & tramples over TNNs
- Regrowth ability is fantastic especially so when it brings back deed over and over again
- Emblems very quickly in 2 turns and the CA produced makes Shardless Variants cannot keep up with our CA even via visions

Garruk Relentless
The best walker vs Tempo decks or anything that wins with small critters like Elf & DnT. Also pressures Miracles abeit slower than Nissa Vital Force.  SB option since it is bad vs Eldrazi
- Fight ability very good vs critters
- 2/2 Wolf for grindy fun
- Flip side has the awesome ability to tutor for a creature while triggering Explorers

Liliana the Last Hope
Good vs Critter decks and Miracles.  Exclusively used in Atraxa & Leovold 4c builds. 
- Does exactly what she do in Standard now which is picking off critters dead such as DnT critters and YP and makes Insectile Abberation a limpy 1/1
- Rebuys dead creatures to pressure opposing removal
- Ultimates regularly vs Miracles

The more I test it the more Nissa is just an absolute house in this deck.  There's been quite a few games where I had no business winning but was able to stabilize.  Although I'm a bit confused when you say trampling land. 

I also want to test Ob Nixilis Reignited in the list.  I'm curious if anyone has tried him out / has any thoughts on that. 

Re: [Updated Primer] Nic Fit

Originally Posted by Purple Blood

The more I test it the more Nissa is just an absolute house in this deck.  There's been quite a few games where I had no business winning but was able to stabilize.  Although I'm a bit confused when you say trampling land. 

I also want to test Ob Nixilis Reignited in the list.  I'm curious if anyone has tried him out / has any thoughts on that. 

I have played Ob Nixilis Reignited.  He is really nice with CA but slow.  Easy to cast after turn two Phyrexian Tower sac Vet. 

Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

What happened to Big Sorin in the PW list?  Yes, he costs 6 mana, but his +1 is CA & kill condition roled into one, his -X is spotremoval + lifegain and his ultimate says "You win the next turn". 

Granted, he didn't win me all games where he hit the field but he turned into at least a 3-for-1 (allowing me to finish off my opponent soon after). 

@Arianrhod: No love for Summoner's Egg Fit in the tertiary builds list?  It's pretty much the Junk coloured older brother of Sneak Fit.  I know I'm the only nutcase who's ever played it and it never amounted to much, but still.  It's fun as hell. 

The OP's quote is very fitting in response to the various takes on the build, I frankly love the addition of Natural Order and wouldn't dream of cutting it: “You have your way.  I have my way.  As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” 

The build is meant to be hyper aggressive.  Once it reaches 4 mana, it's game over for your opponent thanks to the unblockable, unkillable 10/10 coming for their face. 

Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

Here is my current list...

The OP's quote is very fitting in response to the various takes on the build, I frankly love the addition of Natural Order and wouldn't dream of cutting it: “You have your way.  I have my way.  As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.” 

The build is meant to be hyper aggressive.  Once it reaches 4 mana, it's game over for your opponent thanks to the unblockable, unkillable 10/10 coming for their face. 

Honestly adding blue makes that NO list look very spicy.  Best looking one I've seen proposed.  I especially like Fauna Shaman + Meren although it is likely to be fairly disruptible in a lot of matchups.  I'd only try to add a Nissa VF.  Perhaps (I'll get flack for this) cut a single GSZ?  With 3 DRS you won't feel as much need to GSZ for a Vet early, and you have fetchland -> arbor if you need a green creature to sac for NO.  I think that GSZ, at least a full playset of GSZ, is not so needed if you have excess DRS and lack any 6+ cmc green dudes.  I'd say that Tracker is missing as well, but Leovold covers that spot similarly. 

Mind you that I haven't played anything but Sneak Fit in a while, just throwing out ideas. 

Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

Great suggestion, I'll add 3 Mindbreak Trap to the sideboard.  I'm also considering cutting the Fatal Push and Painful Truths to play a Collective Brutality and Liliana of the Vess maindeck.  Collective Brutality combos great with Cabal Therapy (lets you peek at your opponents hand), Veteran Explorer (lets you kill an Explorer in a pinch) and both cards even let you get rid of a drawn Progenitus. 

I hadn't considered Nissa VF.  What purpose would it add to the list.  It's 5 mana and there's no way to tutor for it so it clearly isn't essential to the deck's functioning.  Is it a way to allow you to blow up the board with Deed while still letting you maintain dominance?  Because Progenitus already serves that role very well. 

Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

Great suggestion, I'll add 3 Mindbreak Trap to the sideboard.  I'm also considering cutting the Fatal Push and Painful Truths to play a Collective Brutality and Liliana of the Vess maindeck.  Collective Brutality combos great with Cabal Therapy (lets you peek at your opponents hand), Veteran Explorer (lets you kill an Explorer in a pinch) and both cards even let you get rid of a drawn Progenitus. 

I hadn't considered Nissa VF.  What purpose would it add to the list.  It's 5 mana and there's no way to tutor for it so it clearly isn't essential to the deck's functioning.  Is it a way to allow you to blow up the board with Deed while still letting you maintain dominance?  Because Progenitus already serves that role very well. 

Nissa does several things in (I currently believe) every Nic Fit list.  I had stuff written down but I think I can summarize her easily in that...she works wonderful along any range of aggro-grind-control that nic fit can find itself depending on both matchup and current gamestate.  Fast clock, check.  Recurs permanents that save from troubling situations, check.  Out-grinds any game that goes long, check.  She has to be answered and on a slightly different level than your creatures, and in turn answers stuff that nic fit often has trouble with (Jace in particular).  I would still recommend trying her out as a Plan B/C. I can see a large number of games winning due to the 10/10, but Nissa has the chance to better guarantee those while also allowing wins without a successful NO.  She, in a similar vein as Tracker and Leovold, is a different threat that simply has to be answered.  I don't see how adding a second 5-drop would in any way be problematic for this deck. 

Also, I spent time earlier in the year with NO Rug.  I loved having Elderscale Wurm available as an NO-target.  That deck struggled to survive against small creatures, so it made more sense there, but having an instant-win against Dredge, Burn, any damage combos, and giving you plenty of time in the lands matchup to find another NO for Progenitus was all very nice.  It's a thought - nic fit has better board control so perhaps a separate NO target isn't as necessary (ruric thar in the side could keep NO as a game-winning play vs storm for instance). 

Re: [Primer] Nic Fit

No it definitely isn't.  Sneak requires the fatty to be in your hand.  NO does not.  Play what you want.  But to argue one is strictly superior/inferior to another is a fool's errand. 

As for Elderscale Wurm, I think I want to test Terastadon first instead.  It seems just as useful than the Wurm and a faster clock.  Plus I have Terastodon where as I have to wait for the Wurm to come in the mail.