Interviewer(s): Karen Bell
Interviewee(s): Anne Eales

Karen Bell: We are here for a Legacy Project interview with Anne Eales, who is retiring from the National Archives after fourteen years ofservice. Well, Anne, we have set of, general questions that we are going to ask, and they basically pertain to your education, your background with the National Archives, your work experience outsiae ofthe National Archives, and your collections knowledge. So, we'll get start/d with our first question: how did your education influence your decision to work at the National , Archives?

Anne Eales: Well, I wouldn't be working at the National Archives i,f I hadn't happened to be at George Mason University when Ed McCarter advertised for a, oh, goodness, I don't remember what the exact title was, but it was someone to work with the naval photographs from World War II. And I was taking my master's degree at Mason, and a friend saw a note on our bulletin board that Ed had sent, and they knew that I had worked three years for the Military History Institute up in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, arranging their World War II photographs. They said, "Oh, this is perfect, why don't you apply?" So I wrote, and, sure enough, here I am.

Karen Bell: OK, so you had your master's thesis at George Mason ...

Anne Eales: I also took my bachelor's there.

Karen Bell: OK. And you engaged in research at the National Archives?

Anne Eales: I had, and had met Michael Kurtz, also, through some work that I was doing, so I had that tie.

Karen Bell: OK. Well, your professional work experience outside the National Archives was with Capitol Hill. Can you discuss that?

Anne Eales: Well, I had worked on-and-off; my husband was an army officer, so we would come to Washington, be reassigned, and come back to Washington. During the time that I was in Washington, I worked on the Hill for three congressmen and one senator. Most ofmy work there involved writing speeches and position papers, and I edited Senator Allen Cranston's newsletter ...

Karen Bell: OK.

Anne Eales: ...for California in three languages! So I did that for several years. The unfortunate part ofit was during the time that I was on the Hill, the employees there were not part ofthe Civil Service system, so it does not count, those years do not count at all for my retirement purposes!

Karen Bell: OK. You spent how many years working on the Hill?

Anne Eales: Oh, goodness, I don't know ...six, seven, something like that.

Karen Bell: And that helped you secure a position here at the Archives in '91?

Anne Eales: No, it really didn't. I decided, when we came back in 1985 and my husband decided to retire, that I would go back to school and finish my education, which had been interrupted every place we would go!

Karen Bell: OK.

Anne Eales: I have a good friend who has about 150 hours ofcredit but not enough to graduate anyplace, because they have gotten it at places were her husband traveled, so ... I don't think the Hill experience really helped me to get a job at NARA, other than the experience ofwriting.

Karen Bell: OK. What kind oftraining did the Archives provide when you started working here?

Anne Eales: Not very much. I started with Ed McCarter, and I was actually only with Still Pictures about, hmm, three months, it was because I had the experience already working with photographs, from the time at MHl [Military History Institute] but at the end ofthat three months, my husband was retiring. I was working part-time for Ed, but I needed a full-time job. Mary Rephlo suggested, knowing my writing experience, that Sharon Thibodeau was looking for someone in NN-E, which was Archival Publications, to write and to edit, and do that kind ofthing. So at that point I moved over there. Again, I had writing experience, so it did not take much specialized training for that.

Karen Bell: So you came in as a writer?

Anne Eales: I came in, certainly, to full-time employment at the Archives; as I said, I had worked at Still Pictures for those three months. Cataloging was what I was doing, and I wrote descriptive material, too. But when I moved to NNE, they were looking for a writer and a historian, and I had experience doing both.

Karen Bell: OK. But the archivist position; how did you come about being the archivist for RG 64 [Records ofthe National Archives and Records Administration]?

Anne Eales: Oh, goodness ...

Karen Bell: .. .Is that a long story?

Anne Eales: That is a long story! How much tape do we have here? I worked mainly in publications for probably, out ofmy fourteen years, I worked primarily in publications for nine ofit. And when I moved back out here in 2000, I was finishing writing, with Bob Kvasnicka, the Guide to Genealogical Research, and as soon as I finished that I picked up the responsibility to write the inventory for RG 64, which meant going through all ofthe series and doing descriptions, which are now being translated into ARC [Archival Research Catalog] descriptions. It took a long time to get to [RG] 64!

Karen Bell: OK. You've addressed the next question, at least tangentially. That question is, what were your impressions ofthe agency at the time you began your career here?

Anne Eales: I think very limited, because I did not, probably for the first three or four years, I did not take the "Archives for Non-Archivists" course, so I didn't really get how all the pieces necessarily fit together. I was looking at the archival publications and the finding aids that NARA was preparing, and I was working preparing, or writing, or editing those, but as far as accessioning, or that kind ofthing, really, until I took the course, I didn't quite understand how it all worked.

Karen Bell: OK, OK. You mentioned your initial work assignments in Still Pictures, and you mentioned your work with RG 64. What other assignments had you had here at the agency, and how did those assignments change over the years? I guess that is a long, drawn-out question.

Anne Eales: No, it is pretty much limited to the two things. I picked up other responsibilities when I started out. I did the pictures, and then I transferred over. I started out doing microfilm publications, editing microfilm publications. Then I expanded it into Reference Information Papers--the different types ofpublications--and gradually, oh, goodness, worked on guides and things like that over the years. So, the types ofpublications certainly expanded. Eventually I expanded into working in exhibits, you know, the captions that are up beside exhibits that we have. I worked on those, those have to be edited. You go in, and there is a huge conference table, and you have these things laid out in order, so you are looking at them in the exact order that they will be in the exhibit. Then you are making corrections, making sure they are in the right order, making sure that that this one agrees with that one, and all ofthis.

Karen Bell: From what I understand, you have had some significant publications here at the agency; you have worked on some significant publications here. Can you discuss your work with the genealogical guide?

Anne Eales: Oh, goodness, It is the kind of thing where you are putting together a puzzle. Bob Kvasnicka and I edited the guide, and it took almost two years, because you are trying to cover all the various types ofrecords, civilian and military, that someone would use in trying to find an ancestor. So you are going to this unit and saying, "What about the immigration records, what about census records, what about the military records associated with this war," or whatever, trying to put all this together, Gradually, as you get all these things in, you have to make it agree. Putting a book together is very difficult; I don't think people think very much about that, but ifyou write on the first page, "Dwight D. Eisenhower," and you write on page 75, "Dwight S. Eisenhower," people notice things• like that, so you are trying to make all ofthe things that go into a book agree. Because people say, "OK, which is it? These poor dummies can't get it straight!" B. OK. There were some other publications, that you worked on, that's the NARA Guide [to Federal Records], that has to be the cream ofthe crop here.

Well, certainly the biggest, at over 2000 pages! Judy Koucky and I said that when we finished this, that we ought to get one of those sweatshirts that said, "I survived the NARA Guide," because it's like the "genie" guide, only much greater, because obviously there is a lot more information that you are trying to get from a lot more people. Then, looking at all ofthe background information Judy was gathering for all the agencies; to tell [ the Department of] Agriculture has reinvented itself about 312 times, at least; so you're going down all ofthis, saying it was this at this point, then ...

Karen Bell: The hierarchy, right. ..

Anne Eales: ...Yes, exactly. So that when someone looks at the series at a particular time, they know that it was called this, that, or the other thing. So, to try to get all ofit, so it agrees. I think we did something like 414 record groups at that time that are included in that Guide. We didn't do them in order, starting with Record Group 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. We started, the first batch, I think we sent it to GPO [Government Printing Office] to have it put on to the, goodness, it reminds me ofZantac, the medicine, but it's something like "Zertec;" the software program that they used at that time. We didn't send it to them 1, 2, 3, 4, 5; we sent them like, 24, 33, 38 ...

Karen Bell: Bits and pieces ...

Anne Eales: Yes, and it was a challenge just to keep track ofwhich ones you had sent, what stage they were in, had they come back. Then, when you get all ofthem back, you get them in sheets that are about the size ofnewspaper sheets, what we call page proofs. You sit with these on this huge table, and you read line-by-line, letter-by-letter, all the way down, every one ofthose, I believe it is 2038 pages or some such thing. You are looking at each one ofthose, letter by letter.

Karen Bell: That was a massive compilation.

Anne Eales: It was a huge compilation, yes it was!

Karen Bell: How long it take for you two to put the guide together?

Anne Eales: Judy and I spent a year and a ha!£ Bob Matchette had originally worked on it, and was pulled offto work on the move. He jumped from the frying pan into the fire, so to speak. Unfortunately, we had to go back to some ofthe stuff he did, because as new material came in, it didn't agree with some ofthe stuffthat was done before, so we were constant! y shifting back and forth.

Karen Bell: That was the early '90s?

Anne Eales: Yes, from about '93, probably, to early in '95 when the last of it was sent to GPO. But then we were going to GPO to meet with them, and to go over problems that we had, because no book ever arrives .. .I think ofthe Bible and what it took to get that together! I remember that when we met with the people to discuss what page weight.. .it's the things you don't think about in the book: how much does the paper for an individual page weigh? Because ifyou are going to put 2000 pages in somewhere, that's a lot ofweight!

Karen Bell: It effects the weight, certainly.

Anne Eales: So then, they said, "All right, ifyou choose this weight ... " and then the cover is a certain weight, and then the three volumes, and then when you pick it up and carry it around; the man at GPO said it would be very effective in Washington DC, because if you carried all three volumes, the weight ofthe paper and the cover would stop a bullet if it was fired at you! He thought there might be a market out there for protection purposes! [Laughs]

Karen Bell: OK, very good. I guess our next question would be, what challenges and issues have you faced with the agency? I know you were here for 14 years, but you have done a tremendous amount ofwork, from what I gather, with the agency, and I am sure there were some challenges and issues that you faced that you may want to expand upon here,

Anne Eales: Well, I think that anyone who has worked at this agency during this period of the move; when I started to work with RG 64 I wrote a short article about what it was like when they originally moved into Archives I, because they moved in and the building was not finished. The first day ofwork there was, I think, November 9, 1935. They had been, before that, in the Justice Department across the street, the Archivist and the employees, just four, I think at that point. When they moved into the other building it was not finished, so you still had jackhammers going, and the hammering, and the sawing, and all ofthis stuff. I was making a comparison about what it was like to work at the Archives in those first days and what it was like during this move period and the renovation downtown. So I think that the relocation certainly has been a challenge for most ofthe employees during that period, because what records are closed so researchers can't get to them; where are the records? Keeping track; I don't envy Mr. Matchette his job trying to do that. I think that anybody who has managed to give service during that time is certainly to be commended, because it was a very difficult period. I came out here early on, so I did not get nearly as much as most ofthe people ...

Karen Bell: All the records did come?

Anne Eales: Yes! [Laughs]. You have to keep track when and how you are going to be moving things around, so that you don't lose something that you are going to be hunting for a week later.

Karen Bell: What kind ofprocedures were put in place for tracking the records during that major move?

Anne Eales: Oh, that was Matchette's job, and he was very good. The government is sometimes bad about putting a square peg in a round hole; Mr. Matchette is a round peg in a round hole, because he was perfect for the job. They could not have chosen better, as far as I am concerned, at keeping track ofwhere things were, ofkeeping all ofus alert as to which record groups were closed. That was a difficult time, and trying to tell researchers in our publications that, "These are going to be closed at this time, so don't come to Washington. Ifyou have been saving for five years to come to Washington and look up Grandpa, don't do it now, because this is not going to be available."

Karen Bell: OK, very good. What changes in the administration were there during your tenure here at the Archives, and how did that affect your work with the agency? What sort ofadministrative changes took place during your tenure here?

Anne Eales: I don't know ifyou would call it administrative changes; certainly consolidation ofthe publications functions. When I first got involved with Archival Publications, NN-E, there were several units that had publications. NI, which did Records Management pubs at that time, and NE, Public Programs, did Trust Fund publications for exhibits and that kind ofthing. And I was asked to prepare a report on how having so many different units preparing publications complicated things, because here we were, all going separate ways on publications. I guess it was 1997 when they began to pull, at least all ofthe NW--and NE, ofcourse, at some point became a part of NW--so they pulled the various types ofpublications together. The Records Management publications, and there are a lot ofthem that go out to the various agencies, to tell them what you need to save, how to go about saving it, the training that they offer, that sort ofthing. The publications associated with the exhibits, the exhibit books, as I said, the captions, that kind ofthing. And the archival publications. So they brought it together in NWCD, and created one unit that would do all the various types of publications.

Karen Bell: OK. And NWCD would be ...for those who hear the "alphabet soup" and don't knowNN-E?

Anne Eales: I'm sorry, NN-E was Archival Publications, which was the finding aids, RIPs [Reference Information Papers], guides, special lists, select lists; we had a list ofStaff Information Papers, where the staffwould write papers on how to work with a specific series, or how to do specific things; recommendations on how to prepare a microfilm publication, which was a very big thing during those years ...

Karen Bell: OK, so that has changed ...?

Anne Eales: Well, NN-E was assimilated with the NI and the NE and the other types of publications staffmembers into one unit, so that now the people who edit down at NWCD--I started to say NNCD, it's WCD!--are doing a lot of different things. I did the Archivist's bio one year, to prepare and edit that for NPOL. So there are a lot of different things than we used to do. Where we were very specialized, we expanded, so that NI people, who had done nothing but records management, could do finding aids and that kind ofthing, across that border.

Karen Bell: OK, Ok, right. So that has been a good change?

Anne Eales: I think it is, because it has meant that ifyou only had one person in NI, in Records Management, preparing records management publications, and they were on leave or sick, or something happens, then it stops at that point. Whereas ifyou have them all working together, ifthat person is gone, someone else is prepared to pick up the editing, or the writing responsibility for it.

Karen Bell: OK, our next question is, what would you say were the most significant turning points in your career with the agency?

Anne Eales: It came early on, very early! [Laughs] I met Sharon Thibodeau. Mary Rephlo, who was at that time working with Personnel within the Archives, she knew that Sharon was looking for someone who could do what we call "content editing." Editing is usually like a technical edit ...something is not spelled right. But someone who could look at a NARA publication and say, "No, this person was not at the conference ... " I remember one in particular that said that Charles de Gaulle fought in France all the way through the Second World War, which ofcourse, he did not [Laughs], he was in England for much of that time. So it is the ability to pick up a historical error as well as a technical error in spelling or English grammar, where the tenses don't match and that sort ofthing.

Karen Bell: OK; Would you say that gender has affected your ability to advance within the agency?

Anne Eales: Not in my particular case. I am sure that there are other cases where it probably has, but I had a skill that was somewhat unusual, or a combination ofskills, ifyou would. So I don't think it would have mattered had I been man or woman; ifI had been a man with those skills, it still would have been what they needed. And in editing, in NWCD, there have certainly been both men and women who have served as editors and writers for the National Archives.

Karen Bell: OK, very good. Well, I guess you have addressed the next question in your previous responses, but what had been your relationship with other Federal agencies, and how have those relationships affected your work?

Anne Eales: Ifwe are talking strictly of may time at NARA .. .I don't know, is it NARA [with an "ii" as in "father"] still? I never know, I was told the other day ... something about NARA [with an "a" as in "care"], and they said, "No, it's NARA [with an "a" as in "father"]." I need to get that right, ifI don't do anything else, before I retire, I'll get that right! Much ofmy time, because I have been working on NARA publications, I haven't been too involved with people outside. The Library ofCongress, sometimes, because we will use photographs, for instance, from there in some ofour pubs. Smithsonian, a little bit, and the military, the Center for Military History. Because I am a military historian, and I wrote an article called, "Fort Archives: The National Archives Goes to War," which was the Archives experience during World War II and what we contributed to it. So I did some work with the Center for Military History at that point. I guess the one that I have worked with the m_ost is the Government Printing Office. And there are nice people there, but it doesn't always work ... [Laughs]

Karen Bell: There's a "but" in there!

Anne Eales: We had received, in fact, just about three weeks ago, I guess, we did a new NW booklet, and got it in. They had put it away wet, and I was very disgusted, because we paid a couple ofthousand dollars, and the front is smeared in places. So it depends; the work that they did on the NARA Guide was excellent. So it's the kind ofthing, and I guess it is this way at any agency, you get people who are tremendously talented, and you get people who are not as interested in producing the quality product, at least as good as I want.

Karen Bell: But they have been pretty good over the years in producing the guides?

Anne Eales: Yes, there was a time when we had a little more flexibility to go out, you know, to other [print shops] .. .if GPO was just stacked up with work, and we needed something very quickly. And I think probably, still, invitations to a dinner that the Archivist gives, or something ofthat nature that has been edited and designed by NWCD, would be sent out. And ifwe needed something and GPO can't produce it, then I think they probably still have the ability to go to other ... well, maybe still through GPO, and GPO sends it to somebody else. I don't know how that works. But it has been a tenuous situation at times!

Karen Bell: Tenuous, OK! You mentioned that you are a military historian. Have you had occasion to work here with the records for your own personal research?

Anne Eales: Oh, yes. A book I had published a few years ago was a book on Army wives on the American frontier. And [I] certainly used the records for that. I am writing a book right now on America and the China Relief Expedition in the Boxer Rebellion in China. And General Chaffee, Adna Chaffee's records from that are here. I wish that somebody has read it before we went to war in Iraq, because it is very similar. Chafee, when the Boxers were defeated, his forces moved into Peking. And the coalition forces ...really, other than France in the Revolutionary War, it is the first example ofAmericans participating in coalition warfare. Which is why there is some interest in it. But he talks a great deal about what it's like to occupy a city in which you have, still, enemies, as we have in Baghdad today. But nobody had looked at those records for probably ninety years.

Karen Bell: Wow.

Anne Eales: I wish they had!

Karen Bell: So you are making an important contribution, as a result ofyour work here with the agency?

Anne Eales: Well, I hope so, I plan to work on it; I am on chaptertwo ... to finish it. I want to make an important contribution to getting one ofmy bedrooms back! There are copies ofrecords stacked all over the place there!

Karen Bell: OK, very good. So, going back to our list here, researcher interests and researcher demands are important here with the agency, ofcourse. How would you say that that has guided your work with the records; and you have mentioned the various guides that were published, and now we are entering into this digitization phase that the agency...

Anne Eales: Yes, indeed ...

Karen Bell: So, can you expand on that a little bit?

Anne Eales: Well, one ofthe biggest tasks that I was involved with was preparing the 3000+ microfilm publications to go up on the web site. The GPEA [Government Paperwork Elimination Act] project. This has been a huge task; it took me a little over two years, two and a half years, something like that, from beginning to end ofthat, to go through, because for many ofthem we did not have an electronic form. And to get them into an electronic form took a lot ofeffort, and certainly for Tina Robinson, who later headed that effort--the "Microfilm Guru," as we tease her--it has just been a huge task. But I think a very worthwhile one. I think it went up last December, at least they started, I know. As far as what I have done with RG 64, a lot ofthe interest in RG 64 is within the Archives itself, what we call internal requests. And the Archivist has taken an interest, Professor Weinstein, and he has occasionally asked for information. You know, the kind ofthink where he has a Supreme Court justice coming to visit the Archives, and he wants to know who was the first Supreme Court justice to visit the National Archives. And you go to the files, and you look in the records and find out. Maybe you have two hours to find it, but it's that kind ofthing. Most of the interest from outside has changed, very much, since 9/11. Before then, we got huge numbers ofschool children who said, "We're coming to Washington." And each one would be assigned a different agency. "We're coming to the National Archives. Tell me everything you know about the National Archives!" You would sit down and tell them about the building, and how much it cost, and the fact that they were not going to put much furniture in it in the first place, because they didn't think there were going to be very many employees who would be sitting down, it would just be records. Stuff like that. But the schoolchildren tours have certainly dropped offsince 9/11. So, much ofthe interest that has been shown: things like the great gates and doors: who produced those, when were they produced, what do they weigh, that sort ofstuff, the seal in the floor, who designed the seal? But mostly it's people wanting to do something; an exhibit, have we ever had an exhibit on this topic before, that kind ofthing.

Karen Bell: OK. Well, I guess you have pretty much assessed the next question on our list, and that is the institutional value ofthe records. Certainly, RG 64 is ofgreat value to NARA's internal staff, and is there anything else you would like to add as you contemplate and think about the work you have done over the past 14 years with the records in the agency?

Anne Eales: You hate to leave people when you go, obviously; I hate to leave RG 64! [Laughs]. I have invested a great deal oftime in the writing, and certainly it is far from finished. I hope, I hope very much that the effort to get the series descriptions prepared... And for many ofthem, a man named George Ulibari wrote one in 1964, but things are added, you know, you have new series or series are broken down, because they get too large. But you find a number ofthings. Ifyou go into those files ...did you ever eat in the snack bar downtown in Archives I?

Karen Bell: No.

Anne Eales: No? Well, in the snack bar down in the basement ofArchives I, most employees who have been around for a Jong time certainly ate down there, I know it has changed quite a bit now, but the snack bar downtown was created for the military who occupied part ofthe Archives during the Second World War. They were working at night; it was the O.S.S. [Office ofStrategic Services]. They had nowhere to eat, so they put in the cafeteria downtown so that they would have some place to eat at night. They occupied Room 400, which is the old microfilm reading room, which now happens to be where NWCD's offices are now. There was a vault, or there is a vault, I think they still have it, in that room. The vault in that room was where they stored the maps, because they drew from Archives records the topographical maps for the D-Day landing, they had them out on the table there. They had the vault in there so that they could store the stuff. They came in through the loading dock, downstairs, and carried them up through the big freight elevators down there, for the D-Day landings. And those kind ofthings that are done in the Archives, to me are fascinating...

Karen Bell: You're right, they are...

Anne Eales: .. .It gives a dimension to the Archives that you don't think about, you know, because much ofthe activities ofthe Archives, in the early years, particularly ...I'm saying, "in the early years;" ofcourse it is still tremendously valuable, but I think it has a value all the time that people don't appreciate. "Oh, you know, I'm sitting here looking at the Agriculture records, or I'm sitting here looking at the Interior, or something like that," but there is a great deal in those records that you find, as Bob K vasnicka has, a land claim for Buffalo Bill Cody's ranch. It is about so big, and it has an entire layout ofthe ranch, where the ranch house was, and all ofthis business. And, you know, people don't think about things like that in the Archives. So I hope that someone will continue to work with the RG 64 records, for the sake ofthe Archives itself, for our own identity, I guess.

Karen Bell: Right. Exactly what kind ofprogress has been made, in terms of... [Laughs]

Anne Eales: There's just, ifyou go down into one of the stack areas, you have two full row, 85 and 86, just box after box after box. And then, Larry Patlen, I know, has another stash ofthem upstairs. There's just a lot to be worked on. The problem is, ofcourse, is that the person working with it, the archivist working with it, like Judy Kouky, has a lot ofother responsibilities, as I have had other responsibilities, so you are doing it part-time, or you are picked up. I was a special projects archivist for many years, and wrote things ... Like writing a draft pamphlet for speakers bureau, because this was a proposal that we had, that archives staffwould go out and speak at colleges and universities, or whatever.

Karen Bell: Right. Good idea!

Anne Eales: So you get picked up, and you don't get to work as much on things like RG 64.

Karen Bell: Well, it had been a pleasure talking with you, and getting your insights into the agency over the past fourteen years. I know that there are many, many more stories that you would like to tell, and certainly this is the opportunity to do that. Is there anything else that you would like to add as you look over the past fourteen years?

Anne Eales: Oh, goodness, it will be lunchtime before we finish! [Laughs]. No, I think that I said at my retirement party the other day, that I have been reading a book on ancient history, and one ofthe stories was about a dig that they were doing in Egypt, and they had a wall ofhieroglyphics, you know, the way they always do, but at the bottom ofit, it said, "I Amonophis, keeper ofthe king's deeds, have caused this to be written that it may be remembered forever," all of the things that the pharaoh had done. And, I said, it must have worked, because three thousand years later, here we are talking about these deeds, or these records that he caused to be preserved. Well, we are keepers ofthe king's deeds, and that is an important task. I think we don't value that task as much as we should, sometimes we don't take it quite as important as it is.

Karen Bell: Well, you have certainly added an very unique perspective to our efforts to capture the memories of our retiring staff, and certainly with your work with RG 64, that has to be the capstone in this entire process for us. Thank you very much.

Anne Eales: Well, I thank you.

Karen Bell: Thank you.