Interviewer(s): Barbara O'Neil Brett
Interviewee(s): Rose Gabel

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Hi Rose. Thank you for coming today for your interview for the NARA Assembly Legacy Project. I have just a few questions to ask you and this will be part ofthe official records ofthe National Archives here in College Park, MD. The first question I have to ask you is: Why did you decide to work for the Federal Government in DC and leave your home state ofPA? How was DC different from your hometown in PA?

Rose Gabel: I left home to come to work in DC, because when my senior high school class came down here, I loved this city and I thought it would be a great place to live. I wanted to work for the Federal government because they could not fire you and that is why I came to DC.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Describe your first job with the Federal Government. What agency did you work for and what were your duties? Did you enjoy this position?

Rose Gabel: The very first job I had in DC I was a clerk typist. Back in the 1960's, in those days, they came around to the high schools and recruited you. Well, I had been in Business School so that's how I got recruited. They just hired extra girls and when they had a vacancy, one ofthe girls just went in there.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Was that like a Secretarial Pool?

Rose Gabel: Yes.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Was that at GSA Headquarters?

Rose Gabel: Yes. That was at GSA Headquarters. My first job was in employee relations in Personnel at GSA. I enjoyed that job. It was really nice.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: How long were you in that job for Rose?

Rose Gabel: Four and half years.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: That's a long time. Is that the position you had before you came to the National Archives?

Rose Gabel: Yes.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: You joined NARA in 1970?

Rose Gabel: That's right. January 1970.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Which office did you report to at NARA, Rose?

Rose Gabel: I worked in what in those days was educational programs. I was in the Public Affairs Office.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: You were doing secretarial duties for them?

Rose Gabel: Yes.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: What was your first job like with NARA's Declassification Division under Alan Thompson?

Rose Gabel: That was an interesting job because I got in on the ground floor when Mr. Thompson was setting up the place. We did not even have office space at the time. I got to set up the files, set up everything. We hired the people. It was just great being in on the ground floor.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: That sounds like an exciting job. How did your job duties as a Secretary change over time?

Rose Gabel: Let's see. For one, telephones rang on the Secretary's desk and the Secn;tary answered all the phones for the staff. We in Declassification had four phone lines and then you had a phone hold button and that was great. You cou~d put people on hold and answer the other lines or tell someone there is acall for them. Now-a-days, everybody has a phone on their desk and their own phone number.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Right. Now in this conference room we have some high tech phones that have moved along since we started Federal service.

Rose Gabel: Oh yes, speaker phones.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Yes, speaker phones so now staff off-site can listen in on a headquarters meeting. Ifyou call a NARA field office, you can have that field person an active participant in the meeting.

Rose Gabel: There were no speaker phones in the 1960's.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: That's quite a change. Having the computer has changed your work too from the typewriter to the computer.

Rose Gabel: Yes. When I came in we had typewriters and no copier machines. If you wanted to make multiple copies, you used carbon paper. You could only make so many copies with carbon papers or you could not read them. So we used to send out memorandums to all the Regional Administrators and the Office Heads and I had to type the memorandum three times till I got enough copies to send them out.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: That was before word processing so you typed every stroke from scratch.

Rose Gabel: Yes. That's right. Every secretary had some white chalk in her desk and that was in case you made a mistake and erased a little too hard. You chalked it over and rubbed it down with your finger. You could type letters over it and nobody knew.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: That's a good tip. Wite-out was very helpful when it came on the market.

Rose Gabel: There was no wite-out in those days. When correcting fluid such as wite-out came out, that was great!

Barbara O'Neil Brett: What a time saver!

Rose Gabel: Yes. It was just great. You did not have to erase anymore.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: I remember the IBM selective typewriter that had the correction feature. You would back up and it would lift the typo right offthe paper. Those were great those IBM selectives.

Rose Gabel: They were something wonderful.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: How would you describe the atmosphere at the National Archives? How has it changed over the past 42 years? Did NARA start out more like a family atmosphere and then become more business like?

Rose Gabel: The atmosphere, I can only speak ofthe downtown Archives 1 building. I was never at Suitland, MD. Downtown was like a family. I worked on the West Side. As you say, they (the staff) were just like family. You knew all about them. You went on break together. You shared your problems and your joys. You went to all the Christmas parties. Out at Archives 2 in College Park, MD, the friendliness is gone. It is not a friendly building.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Is that because Archives 2 is a very large building with more staff and more contractors than at Archives 1 in DC? Do you think the mix is different than it was in the old days?

Rose Gabel: I am not sure what it is. I think Archives 2 is a big building and that has something to do with it - it being a big building. You don't see many people in the hall and downtown you always saw people in the hall.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: I think what made a big difference too was in the old days when you had to take a message to someone, you usually walked down the hall to see them. You delivered the mail yourself and picked up something going back to your office. Now with e~mails you never see the person. It's just a computer communicating with another computer so you loose that personal touch.

Rose Gabel: One thing I remember about being downtown at Archives 1 were the elevators.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Oh, those old wood elevators at Archives 1.

Rose Gabel: The elevators were terrible.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Yes. They were always getting stuck between floors.

Rose Gabel: They never came on time but when you were late, when you stayed at coffee break too long, you could say the elevator did not come or the elevator got stuck and your boss did not know any better because the elevators . always got stuck.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: That is an excuse that you cannot use here at Archives 2 since we have new elevators.

Rose Gabel: Right. That's true.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Of all the changes you have seen over 42 years such as this new building and all the reorganizations, was there any one that stuck your mind as possibly one ofthe better ones? Perhaps, NARA's independence from GSA? Do you think that was a good move for NARA to break away from GSA when we did and to become independent?

Rose Gabel: Yes. I so think that was a good idea. GSA was holding us down, reminding us all the time that they were in charge and that we were not in charge. That was a big move.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Yes. I felt, when NARA was urider GSA, that the emphasis by GSA was on buildings and not records so we had two different focuses as to what the agency mission was.

Rose Gabel: Right.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: In your 40 years at NARA, who would you rate as your best supervisor and why?

Rose Gabel: I would rate Alan Thompson as my best supervisor. He was great to work for. He shared his knowledge with you and he taught me all about working with classified records and security. He was great.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: You stay in touch with him now.

Rose Gabel: Yes, I do.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Mr. Thompson is living in NC at this time.

Rose Gabel: That's right.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Were there any significant challenges that you faced with your career? Did you find it difficult to get used to the new technology? Was that a big change in your career, the computer, or did it not seem so much of a hurdle?

Rose Gabel: Yes, computers were a hurdle. I was used to typewriters. Now that I have been using the computer for a good while, it's no challenge anymore. What was a challenge was that the secretaries had to do everything and they would change the forms.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Like with travel regulations?

Rose Gabel: Yes. You were always the last to know and you ended up having to do it.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: That would be very frustrating.

Rose Gabel: Yes, it was.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Do you prefer working in FOIA over Declassification?

Rose Gabel: They both have their pluses and minuses. One reason _I am in FOIA now is because I wanted to work with the JFK assassination records. They are part of FOIA's office. Declassification I liked. I was in there a long time. It was challenging.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Now, ofcourse, Declassification (NWMD) has expanded to include the FOIA staff. We are sort ofmixed together anyway since fiscal year 2007.

I would like to say for the record that you have been outstanding in doing NWMD's time and attendance for the past five months. We appreciate that Rose because we haven't had a Secretary in Declass since Christmas 2006 so you were like a New Year's gift to us and we appreciate it.

Rose Gabel: Thank you.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: What changes would you like to see at the secretarial series at the National Archives? Are there any particular changes you'd like to see?

Rose Gabel: There are changes I would like to see. Generally speaking, secretarial positions have to be a certain number of grades below their boss. That's not going to change unless OPM changes. I'd like to see more upward mobility of Secretaries. Ifyou happened to be a Secretary for upper management, you got moved to another higher graded non-secretarial position. Ifyou are a middle or lower graded Secretary, you do not get these opportunities to advance. Ifyou want to get a promotion, you have to leave.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: So that would be a positive change then, to look after all the Secretaries no matter what grade level they are.

Rose Gabel: Right. Offer them (Secretaries) upward mobility and not just to Archives Technicians.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: The upward mobility for Secretaries would keep the knowledge here at the Archives. I know in our office (NWMD) we go through Secretaries every couple ofyears because they leave for an upward mobility opportunity.

Rose Gabel: I brought this up years ago when I was looking for a promotion and they said: "Be a technician." and I said: "Sure, I can be in the same grade (GS-7) that I am now.".

Barbara O'Neil Brett: You wanted an Archives Specialist position rather than an Archives Technician - something with a future.

Rose Gabel: Right.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: After 42 years of working for the Federal government, what will you miss most of all when you retire on August 3, 2007?

Rose Gabel: I will miss the people. Despite what I said earlier, they are a great bunch ofpeople here - loyal and just nice to be with - and I will miss the people.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: I'll know they will miss you too, Rose. What will you miss least of all ofyour duties when you retire?

Rose Gabel: Time and attendance. I have done time and attendance for 42 years.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: That's a long time.

Rose Gabel: Yes, it is.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: You'll be glad to leave it behind.

Rose Gabel: I will be glad to leave it behind. I know all the rules and regulations backwards and forward but what makes time and attendance so hard is you have to be right all the time because you are dealing with people's money.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Rose, is there anything else you would like to add?

Rose Gabel: Yes. I remember when I first came to work at GSA and we did not have copier machines. I was down at GSA in the late 1960' s when we got copier machines. My goodness! We could not believe it! They were big machines then and the operator had to be specially trained. GSA had a room where the copier machine sat in the middle of the room. There was a lady in there and all she did was pick up the handle, put a paper in, put it down. Put another paper in, put it down, and so forth. We were not allowed to operate the copier machines. It was years before we were allowed to operate the copier machine. Then, it was grudgingly that they let us use it.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: That was quite a change.

Rose Gabel: Yes. You felt so important when you took something up to be copied. You did not have to have them mimeographed.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: That's right. Mimeographing was messy with purple ink and those big rollers to crank.

Rose Gabel: You could just have them photocopied. I remember. I don't know ifyou remember, Barbara, but I remember coming to work by bus.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: I remember the bus before there was a subway in the Washington, DC area. I took the bus to work at the National Archives in DC from Arlington, VA.

Rose Gabel: The bus companies were Overall-Chalk in DC and AB and W in Virginia before the subway and Metro Bus. The two bus companies in DC and VA did not talk to each other. You could get a little reduced fare ifyou were going from one bus company to the other. Both companies in rush hour, they had their old buses out. The buses must have been from the 1950's. They had hard seats. They were not air conditioned, windows opened about so much, and they rattled and they groaned.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: You were wondering if they were going to make it home or to the office.

Rose Gabel: Yes. You did. They stuffed them full to the gills.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: No transfers from one to another bus company?

Rose Gabel: You could transfer but you had to pay an additional fee.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: I remember when I first came here to the National Archives (NARA) on February 3, 1975, when I first met you. You were my first Secretary when I came here to NARA in Washington, DC from the Defense Supply Agency (DCASR) in Boston. I remember going out at lunch time and they were digging the subway. We could not wait for the subway to open because it would be right across the street from the National Archives. That was an exciting event when the subway was coming. Lots ofchanges.

Rose Gabel: One ofthe things I also remember about the old building (Archives I in DC) was people took coffee breaks then. You were not allowed to have coffee or drinks in the stack areas because ofthe records, so you had to got to the Snack Bar in the basement. When I first came to work for Mr. Thompson, we shared office space with other staff and they invited me down to coffee breaks with them. So I went and continued to do so the whole time I worked at Archives 1. I met my good friend, Eddie Reese, there. We had break together for years. (Eddie Reese retired and passed away in the 1990's.)

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Wasn't Sandy Smith part ofthat group?

Rose Gabel: Yes.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Was Vickie part ofthe group?

Rose Gabel: No.

It was great listening to those older employees telling tales of what it was like when they were young and working for the Federal government. I also remember downtown (Archives 1) one year when we did not have a fire drill because the building was so full offire code violations. They didn't bother.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: They did not want the fire department to come thru and see the fire code violations. Hopefuliy, the violations have all been addressed with the recent ( circa 1998-2005) renovations to Archives 1 in DC.

Rose Gabel: One time we had a fire drill. We always found out in advance that they were having it. It was a secret but we always found out. Eddie Reese and I would go down to the. Snack Bar in the basement and have our coffee. We would sit way back in the Snack Bar. Lo and Behold, the fire drill would come and Eddie and.I would not leave the Snack Bar. We would stay and drink our coffee.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: No one noticed that you had not left the building because you were sitting in the back ofthe Snack Bar?

Rose Gabel: Right.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: That doesn't work out here at Archives 2. Does it Rose?

Rose Gabel: No.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: We just had a fire drill last Friday (June 8, 2007) and you had to vacate the building.

Rose Gabel: At Archives 1, you had to set security in the stacks. Generally, you had 3 stacks that you looked after. Until you got all the security on in the stacks, generally, you did not make it out ofthe building.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: So those staff never had to go down all those stairs at Archives I during a fire drill.

Rose Gabel: That's right.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: They were saved from that trip down the stairs.

Do you remember 9/11 (Terrorist Attack of September 11, 2001 )? Were you at work on that day? That Tuesday?

Rose Gabel: Yes. On 9/11/01, I was working here at Archives 2 in the FOIA Office. One of the men in the office, his wife called, and he wasn't at his desk. She called again very soon after and he was at his desk. He turned on his computer and told us what was happening. We went and watched on his computer as it was happening.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: So you saw the two planes in New York city hit the buildings, the World Trade Center Towers?

Rose Gabel: Yes. We had a TV in the FOIA office and Herb Milton­ Rawlings knew where the rabbit ears (antenna) were. Herb got the rabbit ears and we sat in the FOIA conference room (Room 6350) and watched the whole thing on TV.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Until you got the release from the Archivist?

Rose Gabel: Yes and staff wandered in and out. Yes, I remember that. We were not sure how we were going to get home. We heard the buses were not running. I think that they were running but we were told the buses were not running. A girl stopped at the bus stop (R3 Bus Stop at Archives 2 in College Park, MD) and asked is anyone was going down to the District (Washington, DC). So she took me along and dropped me off at Eastern Market ( in DC) and then I went home (to Arlington, VA) on the subway with no problem.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: That was good. On 9/11/2001, I was at workdowntowIJ. at the main Archives in Washington, DC and we could see the smoke from the Pentagon (where one ofthe planes had hit). We were waiting for Archives 2 to give us the release to vacate the city (DC) because we were under enemy attack. It took us a real long time to get the release from Archives 2. I remember seeing the FBI employees released, Department ofJustice employees released, Federal Trade Commission employees released and still we at Archives 1 were at our posts because we had not received the word from Archives 2. Then, we finally were released around 10:30a.m. over one hour after the first plan_e hit. As you said, there were no buses running. We were told by DC Pplice, who were on every comer, not to go down into the subway. The police thought there may be bombs planted in the subway. So I waited four hours on the comer ofih and Constitution Ave. NW for my husband, Charles Brett, to drive from Archives 2 in MD to Archives 1 in DC to our home in Arlington, VA .. That was some day. A day we won't forget.

The other day that I remember is the Oklahoma City bombing ofthe Federal Building in April 1995. That was something too.

Rose Gabel: What you don't remember, probably, were the riots back in the 1960's.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Were you here in DC in 1968 during the riots after Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated?

Rose Gabel: I worked at GSA during the riots. I still remember seeing the smoke over the city (DC).

Barbara O'Neil Brett: As buildings were being burnt and businesses were being trashed?

Rose Gabel: You could just see the smoke over the city.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: The Federal Government stayed open then?

Rose Gabel: No. We were released early in the afternoon. I went to Virginia for the weekend because I was helping a friend move. When I came back Sunday night to DC, there was a curfew. It was about 6:00p.m. and the curfew had gone into effect at 5:00p.m. There were National Guard soldiers posted all over the place. I was walking home. The only way to get home (was by walking). I was stopped twice (by the National Guard) and asked where I was going.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: So you were walking home to your apartment on Massachusetts Ave. NW in DC and the National Guard pulled you over and asked what your business wa~ (in DC)?

Rose Gabel: Yes. It was so strange being in a curfew. You were not allowed to go out of the building ( apartment building) for anything.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: You could not go to the store to pick up a loaf ofbread?

Rose Gabel: No. You were not allowed on the street.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Total shutdown?

Rose Gabel: Yes.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: How long did that curfew last? A couple ofdays?

Rose Gabel: A.few days.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: That was after the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. in 1968?

Rose Gabel: Yes.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: You certainly have seen a lot ofHistory there Rose.

Rose Gabel: Yes.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: Are you going to stay in this area after you retire (on August 3, 2007)?

Rose Gabel: I plan to.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: It was a pleasure interviewing you Rose. Thank you for all your insights. Thanks for being a friend these past 30 years.

Rose Gabel: Thank you.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: I will transcribe this interview and I will let you review it. We can edit it. It will be part ofthe National Archives Assembly Record Group,NAA.

Rose Gabel: Fine.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: I am glad that you are a part ofthe permanent records of NARA. Thank you very much.

Rose Gabel: Thank you.

Barbara O'Neil Brett: This concludes the National Archives Assembly Legacy Project June 14, 2007 interview ofRose M. Gabel, Secretary, NWCTF (Special Access and FOIA Licon) by Assembly member, Barbara O'Neil Brett Archivist, NWMD (Initial Processing and Declassification Division). This interview will be transcribed by Barbara O'Neil Brett and added to the records of Record Group NAA ofthe National Archives Assembly.