Michael Ford Oral History Interview
Interviewer(s): Robert Klein
Interviewee(s): Michael Ford

Robert Klein: Today is November 6, 2008. This is Bob Klein. I am interviewing Michael Ford, who was a Peace Corps volunteer in Kenya, in fact, Kenya I in 1964 to '66. And the project was rural, rural community action. So let's go back about, oh, a year before you joined.

Michael Ford: Okay.

Robert Klein: And talk about what was going on.

Michael Ford: Okay. A year before I joined, I was in my, beginning my senior year of college.

Robert Klein: And where were you going to college?

Michael Ford: I was going to college in Galesburg, Illinois, at Knox College, a small liberal arts college, about a couple hundred miles from Chicago.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: I was a political science major, but I had had a long-held interest in Africa and in fact, in a way, pulled together a kind of minor in African studies during college.

Robert Klein: Mm hmm.

Michael Ford: So.

Robert Klein: Well, let's go back a little bit.

Michael Ford: Sure.

Robert Klein: Where had you grown up?

Michael Ford: I grew up in the South Side of Chicago.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: In the sort of heart of the Black neighborhood often called Bronzeville.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Siblings?

Michael Ford: I had three sisters and one brother.

Robert Klein: Were you the youngest?

Michael Ford: I was the second. I have an older sister and I was second in birth order.

Robert Klein: And let's jump ahead to. And growing up, high school?

Michael Ford: I went to high school on the South Side. It was one of the best known of the high schools, DuSable High School, traditional Black high school. I think maybe the second or third Black high school built in Chicago.

Robert Klein: Was it by law or by tradition that it was a Black high school?

Michael Ford: By tradition and geography.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay. And high school, during your four years in high school, did you get to do any volunteer work? What did you do during the summers?

Michael Ford: Usually I had to work.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: I didn't do volunteer work, although there were times when there were high school projects that I was involved in or other kinds of things.

Robert Klein: Right, right.

Michael Ford: You'd be involved with meeting other people. The only other sort of projects were choral concerts we often did during the summer too, the high school choir.

Robert Klein: And you were in the choir?

Michael Ford: I was in the choir.

Robert Klein: So you got to do some travel?

Michael Ford: Around Chicago, yes.

Robert Klein: And did the family ever travel anywhere? Did you ever go on vacations?

Michael Ford: Not really. Once or twice there were treks to Mississippi, which was sort of the homeland.

Robert Klein: Okay. Yeah.

Michael Ford: But not the kind of travel that other families did, you know, vacations.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Ford: We didn't do that.

Robert Klein: Okay. Um. Any other extracurricular activities at high school?

Michael Ford: Um. Mostly it was choir or some of the, often I was doing summer courses, accelerated courses, that kind of thing.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: That wasn't extracurricular though.

Robert Klein: But in going through high school, your expectation was that you were going to go on to college?

Michael Ford: Yes.

Robert Klein: And your family's expectation also?

Michael Ford: Yeah. They were pleased to think that. I mean, I was going to be to the first or second to do so.

Robert Klein: Right. Right.

Michael Ford: But they certainly had those aspirations.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Yeah. So you graduated high school and had applied to several schools?

Michael Ford: Mm hmm. I went to Knox essentially because it became the most affordable. I got into the University of Chicago, but since I lived in the neighborhood, I really wanted to get out of town. I applied to a couple of other places outside of Illinois, but I had two fellowships. One was a Pullman Fellowship, which I'll tell you about in a minute.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: The other was an Illinois state one, which gave you money if you went to an institution within the state.

Robert Klein: Where is Knox College?

Michael Ford: Knox is in Galesburg, which is southwest of Chicago.

Robert Klein: Okay. But it's a private.

Michael Ford: It's a private school.

Robert Klein: And it's a four year?

Michael Ford: Four year liberal arts school, about 1,600 students or so.

Robert Klein: Yeah. And so you had the state money and Pullman money.

Michael Ford: Pullman. There's a Pullman Foundation, which actually got formed using the money from the Pullman fortune.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: Pullman had a company town way south in Chicago, and it was essentially all white, and Pullman was pretty much a segregationist. You could be a porter in his company, but nothing else.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: So in his desire to sort of organize social services and supports for the people who worked for him and lived in the company town, he created this foundation.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And the stipulation was that the money went first to the children of Pullman employees, people who lived in Pullman, and then people on the South Side.

Robert Klein: As long as you were poor.

Michael Ford: As long as you were poor. Little did he know that the South Side would become just about totally black.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay.

Michael Ford: So a lot of the Pullman money was available for potential Black college students.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: So using the Pullman money and the state money, Knox was virtually cost free.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay. Yeah.

Michael Ford: $1,002, I think. And I earned that working during the school year.

Robert Klein: So. Okay. So you got into Knox?

Michael Ford: Mm hmm. [to other person] Mary.

Robert Klein: How early did you choose a major? Was it by your second or third year?

Michael Ford: I pretty much was interested in politics from the beginning, politics or history.

Robert Klein: And the African interest?

Michael Ford: That was true even in high school.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay.

Michael Ford: And I'm not exactly sure where it came from. There were a variety of sort of local institutions in and around the South Side.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: People interested in Africa. There was also an enormous Liberian population, and we knew some of them.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay.

Michael Ford: But even in high school, as I said, I began to develop this interest, reading.

Robert Klein: Marcus Garvey was long gone by then?

Michael Ford: Garvey was long gone, but there were still remnants. And I did have teachers who focused on Africa, for whom it was a serious interest. So by the time I got to college, the interest was embedded.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Okay. And you said during, while you were in college, you worked.

Michael Ford: Mm hmm. I did mail delivery for the school. I was a mailman.

Robert Klein: Yeah. All right. And what about your summers then?

Michael Ford: Summers I found whatever jobs I could.

Robert Klein: Come back up to Chicago?

Michael Ford: I'd come back to Chicago. And once I worked for a design company which did offset printing, and I was the packer and loader of their products. And so I had a variety of jobs of that kind. You know, anything you could get during the summer.

Robert Klein: And during the four years, any opportunities for travel?

Michael Ford: Not really, I'm trying to think.

Robert Klein: So now your whole life up to the end of college is pretty much in Chicago.

Michael Ford: Pretty much in Illinois. Yeah.

Robert Klein: Okay.

So, okay, we're talking about travel during your four years. What was your involvement in school life at Knox?

Michael Ford: Um, let's see. I was in a fraternity, which was interesting. It sort of organized your social life on campus. It was a local fraternity because in those days, almost all the national fraternities had discriminatory clauses. Hardly any of them would allow Blacks in, and a great many had anti- Jewish clauses.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Yeah. So the fraternity you were involved with, it was integrated?

Michael Ford: Yes.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: And by local, I mean it had no national, it existed only on this campus.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: I was involved in things political on campus, you know, student peace union and those kinds of activities.

Robert Klein: Yeah. It was during those years, of course, the Peace Corps first began, just about the time you started college.

Michael Ford: Right.

Robert Klein: Do you recall when you first heard of Peace Corps?

Michael Ford: At the very beginning.

Robert Klein: Okay. And how you heard about it?

Michael Ford: I'm not sure exactly how, probably media, but clearly my abiding interest in Africa was key because of Ghana I, you know. I'd had an interest in West Africa, Liberia, Ghana.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And actually knew one or two Ghanaians sort of from Chicago, the University of Chicago area.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay.

Michael Ford: So the announcement of the formation of Peace Corps and then the formation of Ghana I was something I, this was very much a.

Robert Klein: So you were aware of it?

Michael Ford: Yeah, very much.

Robert Klein: But setting Peace Corps aside, what was, what was your intended goal once you finished Knox?

Michael Ford: I assumed I'd go on to graduate school. I also thought fairly seriously about doing African studies at the graduate level. And one of the things I came to be aware of was those handful really of very good African studies programs that existed at the graduate level.

Robert Klein: That was, yeah, early on.

Michael Ford: Yeah. One of which was Northwestern.

Robert Klein: Right, right.

Michael Ford: And because I lived in Chicago and it was sort of close at hand, I actually made a trek or two up to their library while I was an undergraduate.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: I remember, I think my senior paper was on African liberation struggles.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay. And were there any, were there any African study courses at Knox or?

Michael Ford: Not really.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay. And were there any Africans at Knox?

Michael Ford: There was one young man. This is a funny story.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: Sukhdev Bassi, who came from Kenya. He was Asian.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And he was in my class and he graduated in the same year. This is skipping ahead. But Sukhdev was a bright and really engaging young man. This is the weirdest but absolutely true story. I was in the Peace Corps. I was assigned to Thomsons Falls.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: You know, it's a good distance outside of Nairobi. And although there had been a colonial presence there, it wasn't a place that attracted lots of tourists.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: So I was there maybe a week or two and went into the town to do shopping. And all of the shops were owned by Asians.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And this one man behind the counter who was one of the owners of the store in T Falls, really intrigued by this strange person coming, and he told me that he had a relative who'd gone on to the States and he said, do you know Sukhdev? That's an absolutely true story. This was Sukhdev's uncle.

Robert Klein: Well, it's not that coincidental, he had come from Kenya. But that's like, are you from New York City? Do you know?

Michael Ford: That's right. That's right. So we became fast friends. G. K. Unia was the guy's name.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And I got all kinds of special treatment because I knew Sukhdev.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: But there weren't any Black Africans at Knox.

Robert Klein: Right. Okay. Let's jump back now. You're approaching graduation. Had you applied to graduate school?

Michael Ford: No, I had decided I really wanted to do Peace Corps.

Robert Klein: Do you recall applying, the application process?

Michael Ford: Vaguely.

Robert Klein: Okay. One of the things in the application usually is you give an indication of your preference for assignment.

Michael Ford: Right. I do recall that.

Robert Klein: And what was your preference?

Michael Ford: West Africa.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay. And also they may ask if you had a language preference, if you had a second language that you felt comfortable in. Had you studied any foreign language?

Michael Ford: German. So none of the ones, none of the places I'm interested in.

Robert Klein: Okay. So you applied. I don't know if they were still giving the entrance exam then.

Michael Ford: I don't remember.

Robert Klein: Did you apply before you graduated?

Michael Ford: I did.

Robert Klein: Okay, so then let's take the story from there. You sent the application in, but it wasn't a done deal. So you must have been exploring other options.

Michael Ford: Yeah. I graduated and took a job in Chicago.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay.

Michael Ford: Actually, in a management training program for AT&T, Illinois Bell.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Okay.

Michael Ford: And I expected that I'd hear from Peace Corps, and I told them that I'd applied, but they said, fine, you know, if it comes up, it comes up. But if not, we're happy to have you. They were trying to expand their management ranks.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: Really diversity effort.

Robert Klein: Right. Yeah.

Michael Ford: So during the summer, I worked for Illinois Bell and waited to hear. And I guess I heard from Peace Corps probably July of '64, telling me that there was a Kenya program, the first one.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: That training would begin in September and I had to let them know I was interested.

Robert Klein: Did it indicate that it was going to be rural community action?

Michael Ford: Yeah. I'm pretty sure it did.

Robert Klein: And did you think, what in the world is that?

Michael Ford: I did. And I, you know, I had second and third thoughts, but since I wasn't sure how or when the ideal operation would come up, I decided that this one is there now. And I was also intrigued, I remember, that it was Kenya I. It was early on, '64, so I thought it would be fun to be in, you know, the first group.

Robert Klein: Up to that point, had you known anyone who'd been in the Peace Corps?

Michael Ford: No. I think I'd met a Peace Corps recruiter.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: But no.

Robert Klein: So it was kind of a leap of faith.

Michael Ford: It was.

Robert Klein: And when you got the invitation to training, the reaction of your friends, your family?

Michael Ford: Um. Friends didn't quite get it because, you know, in '64, African Americans didn't feel strongly identified with Africa.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: Africa was more an epithet than anything else.

Robert Klein: Yes. Yes.

Michael Ford: So they didn't quite get it. And there was always joking, you know, about you're going to be over there with Tarzan. Or, you know, other jokes. My family was supportive of me.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: But they had real hesitation because, you know, it's going to the other side of the world.

Robert Klein: Right, right.

Michael Ford: Like the dark side of the moon.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: They know nothing about it.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: So their trepidation was about the distance and the disconnection.

Robert Klein: Yeah. But you, you had no hesitation when the invitation came?

Michael Ford: No, I had no hesitation.

Robert Klein: That was it. And Illinois Bell would have to make it without you. They were supportive too I assume?

Michael Ford: They were. They were.

Robert Klein: Because it was the Peace Corps.

Michael Ford: Right. And they made clear that, you know, look, when you're done, you can come on back.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay. Okay, good. Uh. So now you finally get to travel outside of Illinois.

Michael Ford: I'm in Milwaukee.

Robert Klein: Are you reported directly to Milwaukee?

Michael Ford: Report directly to Milwaukee. I'm 90 miles away.

Robert Klein: Very exciting.

Michael Ford: It was.

Robert Klein: So you didn't fly?

Michael Ford: No, actually, I took the train.

Robert Klein: Oh.

Michael Ford: Took the train from Chicago to Milwaukee.

Robert Klein: What a disappointment.

Michael Ford: And made my way to the YMCA where we were housed.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: Downtown Milwaukee.

Robert Klein: Now, it's kind of an interesting moment for a lot of people. You're suddenly in a room with 30 or 40 other people, all of whom have joined the Peace Corps. And I think inevitably you say, well, how do I match up to this crowd and why are they all looking at me or whatever? Do you remember your?

Michael Ford: I do. I do. I remember, um, feeling sometimes in a way like I used to in college. I mean, it was an overwhelmingly white group.

Robert Klein: Right, right.

Michael Ford: See, my life was kind of strange by vocation. College was almost all white. I think there were three or four Black students.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: But home was all Black. Utopia, you know.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: You could go weeks without seeing a white face unless you went to the A&P or something.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: So it was a strange kind of juxtaposition coming from college back home and then from home, say, to the Peace Corps group.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: It was kind of like being back at Knox because they all seemed like the kind of people I'd gone to college with, you know, all the roughly the same age.

Robert Klein: About how many in the group, do you recall?

Michael Ford: 36. And three of you were African American.

Robert Klein: Okay. Okay.

Michael Ford: There was me, there was Rowan. Nettie Kane. I think I'm leaving out somebody, but if not there, there were at least the three of us I can think of.

Robert Klein: Had it been made clear that it was, it was training and selection that you were going into?

Michael Ford: Absolutely.

Robert Klein: Okay. Okay. So now you meet, you see the group and you settle into the why.

Michael Ford: Right.

Robert Klein: There are several married couples among?

Michael Ford: Right.

Robert Klein: Okay. And let's talk about how training began. We'll go through its components in a minute. So what happened after you reported to the Y?

Michael Ford: My memory is that there was a quick initial meeting, and several people sort of addressed us and welcomed us and began to pass out reams of instructions and paper telling us what was going to happen over the next several weeks.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: We got to meet the staff. Most, actually it was two staffs, the training staff and some Peace Corps staffers were out as well.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: The people we actually got to know best at that stage where the training staff, many of whom had connections to the University of Wisconsin.

Robert Klein: Okay. And who was head of the program, do you remember?

Michael Ford: I can remember his face. And if I worked hard at it, his name would come. Joe.

Robert Klein: Okay, that's alright. But at the same time, there was a Peace Corps staff. They were there for the whole training, too?

Michael Ford: No. They were not. They were there to greet us. They stayed only a couple, three days.

Robert Klein: Okay. And during that time, when you made aware that you were a pioneering group, that you would be the first into Kenya? That kind of thing was being talked about by.

Michael Ford: That was.

Robert Klein: I assume more by the Peace Corps staff than by.

Michael Ford: Exactly.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: So they talked a lot about that, about the Peace Corps mission. My memory is they also talked a bit about selection so that we were made aware that there would be a couple of periods where the staff would come in and there'd be this process and selection would occur and not everybody would make it.

Robert Klein: Okay, let's, let's leave that for a moment.

Michael Ford: So that was sort of the orientation.

Robert Klein: So initial training took place at, in Milwaukee.

Michael Ford: Right.

Robert Klein: And it must have, you must have started language training?

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: Let's describe the structure of that and how that works.

Michael Ford: Language training was phenomenal. It was what we'd spent most of our time on. It was several hours a day. We had two sessions, morning and afternoon.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: And even on Saturday there was a, one session of language. I want to say, it's my recollection, it was five or six hours.

Robert Klein: Could be, yeah. Small group or?

Michael Ford: Small groups. I think there were three groups of 12 or 13.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Ford: Each one, each group had two native speakers. One was sort of the lead person. The other was more support.

Robert Klein: And did they tend to be African Kenyans or white Kenyans?

Michael Ford: All African Kenyans.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: All African Kenyans.

Robert Klein: Graduate students in the U.S.?

Michael Ford: Mostly. In fact, perhaps all either recent graduates, B.A. graduates, or currently graduate students.

Robert Klein: Yeah. And did anyone indicate that your ability to learn the language would affect whether you became a volunteer or not?

Michael Ford: I don't remember whether they put it that starkly. It was made clear that this was important, that we were going to be out in the field, out of Nairobi.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: I don't know whether they said, you know, there's a specific level you have to attain to make it. But it was very clear that you had to do well enough to be in the field using it.

Robert Klein: So the Milwaukee phase, then, there was intensive language.

Michael Ford: Very intensive.

Robert Klein: Did you also do some area studies, learning about Kenya?

Michael Ford: Absolutely.

Robert Klein: Do you remember who headed that up?

Michael Ford: There were a number of people. One of the guys who actually became part of the permanent training staff was a fellow named Roger Simmons. Roger, interesting fellow. He, I think, graduated from Tufts and had an interest in Africa and ended up in Kenya, actually worked in settlement.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: So somehow or another they found him or he found Peace Corps and they enlisted him as part of the staff.

Robert Klein: He was an American?

Michael Ford: He was an American.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: And he wasn't part of the Peace Corps staff before that. I think somehow or another they hooked up with him and he became part of our training staff.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: So he was there and sort of organized and directed the area studies part.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: And there were a number of people who came through that were really memorable. And Carl Rosberg, who was a famous Kenyan scholar, came in for a short residency of a couple, of three days.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: Maybe the most memorable one was St. Clair Drake.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay.

Michael Ford: Who was a phenomenal presence.

Robert Klein: Right. His main area of expertise is West Africa.

Michael Ford: That's right. And in fact, I remember one evening after class, we all went to some club in Milwaukee and St. Clair Drake taught us the highlife.

Robert Klein: Yes.

Michael Ford: Smoking all along.

Robert Klein: Yes. Yeah.

Michael Ford: So there was a fair amount of area studies done by a range of people, some of whom talked about politics. There were anthropologists. A couple of linguists.

Robert Klein: Was some of it familiar to you because you had done some African studies?

Michael Ford: Yeah, certainly the politics was. Rosberg was someone whose work I knew. And St. Clair Drake's work I knew.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: So some of it was familiar to me.

Robert Klein: Yeah. And was there also a component called American studies?

Michael Ford: There was, I want to say there are some weird thing like ASWAC or something.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Okay. American studies, world affairs, and communism.

Michael Ford: Yes. It's funny. It's coming back. Yeah. Some of that was okay. Some of it was strange. Some of it was almost like USIS propaganda.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: Like the communist stuff. Yeah. But yeah, there was ASWAC. The American studies was interesting and sort of parallel to the African studies, you know, history, politics. The world affairs, I don't remember it specifically. But I remember the communism stuff was a little heavy handed.

Robert Klein: Yeah. This is all still in the Milwaukee phase?

Michael Ford: All in Milwaukee.

Robert Klein: And it's like, it's an academic thing?

Michael Ford: Right.

Robert Klein: Uh, did, um, well, let's continue. Another component of training is kind of a medical training, health education sort of. Was that there too?

Michael Ford: That was there. Everything was in Milwaukee with one exemption.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: We spent a week to ten days in Madison, where the agricultural animal husbandry component was conducted.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: Making use of, I'm pretty sure they're all different people, folks who are connected to the university there in Madison.

Robert Klein: At what point in training did that come?

Michael Ford: I'm guessing maybe midway or a little bit past midway? It wasn't super early.

Robert Klein: Okay. Let's stick with Milwaukee first.

Michael Ford: Sure.

Robert Klein: Two questions. Did the group tend to break down into subgroups, cliques? What did you do? Did you have any free time? And if so, without saying anything embarrassing, what did you do?

Michael Ford: Friendship groups did develop. Mostly, I think, out of the language groups because they were the small groups in met continually together.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And there might have been friendships across those, you know, people who had something in common. The people I was closest, the two, three, or four people, were people out of the language group.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: Because you were with them 6 hours a day.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And they weren't cliquish in that you didn't have any time to go off and be a clique. You know, your entire day was structured up through about half of Saturday.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: Saturday, I think we trained till noon, we had lunch, then at 2:00 you were off. But for some of us, and I was one of these, some of my Saturday time was given over to dentistry. I mean, they sent us this thing saying, you got to get all your dental work done before you come. Oh, but I couldn't afford it. And neither could apparently a lot of people so they had contracts with one or two dentists and every Saturday we were hieing off to the damn dentist.

Robert Klein: Did you lose all your wisdom teeth?

Michael Ford: I lost wisdom teeth. I had fillings. None of that stuff I'd ever been exposed to, you know. So I had several fillings and extractions. And so Sunday was pretty much the only day off.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: You know, and Milwaukee being Milwaukee, it wasn't a town that was open to a lot of stuff on Sunday. So you could hang out a little bit, maybe go to a movie.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: More often than not, a lot of us ended up spending a chunk of Sunday trying to catch up because they gave us a bunch of reading, you know. And sometimes you'd try to practice the language and there wasn't, you didn't have cars, so your reach was limited.

Robert Klein: Was there any phys ed component?

Michael Ford: There was. There was a, there's a component that was regular. I don't remember how often, but we had swimming training. We had regular soccer and other phys ed kinds of things.

Robert Klein: Right. None of it was a problem for you?

Michael Ford: No.

Robert Klein: Okay, let's, well, let's talk about the Madison phase and then we'll talk about selection. So somewhere near the midpoint of the program, the entire group. Had anyone been deselected by the time you went to Madison?

Michael Ford: I don't remember.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: I remember the first deselection was a guy in my language group.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: Bill Phillip. I don't remember whether it was before or after Madison. I suspect it might have been before.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: And that was a strange thing. I don't know if you want me to talk about it?

Robert Klein: Yeah. Yeah. Talk about it.

Michael Ford: We were each interviewed by a couple of. [tape break] With these people and they had all kinds of questions. I discovered that they lacked a sense of humor. You know, I'd try to, as I typically did, joke around and they'd look at you very strangely.

Robert Klein: Up to that point, you had not been given a psychological interview or anything?

Michael Ford: No.

Robert Klein: So it was all new.

Michael Ford: No. It was very new. So all of us went through this. And my recollection is that the deselection was carefully scheduled so that. I remember we used to, used to have us do soccer on Saturday after the classes, maybe just before or just after lunch. And we'd be at soccer and somebody was missing. The first time that happened was Phil.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: By the time we got back, he was gone. And, you know, somebody announced that he was deselected afterwards. It was all a mystery. Nobody ever told you why. He just was gone when you got back.

Robert Klein: A little creepy.

Michael Ford: Yeah. Very creepy. And the problem, well, there are probably an infinite number of problems with that. But one of the things that it did was it increased anxiety to a level that you could cut with a knife.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Ford: From that point on, you know, because it was mysterious. Nobody knew why. And the guy seemed normal to us.

Robert Klein: Right, right. Yeah.

Michael Ford: You wondered maybe it was something in his background, but you didn't know that. So if it could happen to him, why not me?

Robert Klein: Yeah. Did it tend to bring the group together?

Michael Ford: It did. So the anxiety on an individual level was, you know, kind of unsettling. But it did sort of bring us together in a weird way, like a group under attack almost.

Robert Klein: Yeah, yeah.

Michael Ford: Um, I think there was one other deselection while we were in Milwaukee.

Robert Klein: Mm hmm.

Michael Ford: A couple of people sent home from Kenya, but the other deselection was a very quiet, almost effete young man, and we sort of wondered if there was anything in his mannerism or his sort of projected sexuality, whereas Phil seemed like one of us, you know, was involved in sports and so forth. So I remember two being deselected. And the second young man was clearly after the.

Robert Klein: Madison.

Michael Ford: Madison sojourn. I think maybe there were only the two.

Robert Klein: So let's now talk. The training now shifts over to Madison. And where do you stay at Madison?

Michael Ford: I'm pretty sure we stayed in some sort of dorm thing. We were on campus at the University of Wisconsin.

Robert Klein: And language training continued?

Michael Ford: Language training continued. Yeah, absolutely.

Robert Klein: Was there, about the midpoint, was there language testing? Were you given an indication of your progress?

Michael Ford: We did have a couple of tests, maybe about midpoint or maybe a little bit before. Yeah, we had a couple of tests and they told us where we ranked, you know, we were sort of graded.

Robert Klein: And you?

Michael Ford: I, the first one I was an S-3, which was the highest, and I ended up in S-4 which was native speaker.

Robert Klein: Yeah. And you were, that makes you an exception in your group, doesn't it?

Michael Ford: Yeah, I, I was the highest in the group.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: There were a couple of others, I remember Mike Davidson, who were quite good, but nobody else had native fluency.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Why you, I mean?

Michael Ford: I, um, I took to the training because it was fun and fascinating, and I discovered quite by accident a way of doing the language. Mostly because I liked the teachers, one of whom I actually was in love with.

Robert Klein: All right.

Michael Ford: And I like palling around with them and talking to them.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And what I started to learn was how to create phrases rather than string words together. And I learned that early so I could think and talk in phrases.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: And that sort of gave me a real jump.

Robert Klein: So you were having social contact with the instructors?

Michael Ford: Yeah, limited, I mean, you know, but yeah.

Robert Klein: But it was in Swahili?

Michael Ford: It was in Swahili.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: Yeah. And I would, I would learn how to say a phrase and I'd practice and get it correct. And I learned more and more and more.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: Whereas most language study, the way they were doing it, you know, it was typical language study. You learn words and then they try to get you to pull it together. And but rather than learning, oh, jambo and then trying to think the next thing is habare, I learned habare jaco, you know, I learned a whole phrase.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: And that, that seemed to work.

Robert Klein: Yeah. You, I gather you were highly motivated in training because you really want, now you really want to get to Kenya?

Michael Ford: Right.

Robert Klein: Okay. Let's talk about the other, the other part of Madison was technical training.

Michael Ford: Right.

Robert Klein: And what was that?

Michael Ford: It was a blast because it was so foreign to everything in my background and makeup.

Robert Klein: Were you aware it was any, were there any in the group who had agricultural farm experience?

Michael Ford: Yeah, several.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay. Had actually seen a cow face to face?

Michael Ford: Uh huh. And I remember one or two actually, John Greer, who was sent home early.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: He had grown up on a farm. There were a couple of others. Not, most of us had not, but a handful had.

Robert Klein: Yeah. So what did they take you through?

Michael Ford: Oh, well, there was all kinds of things about crops and corn and, which was called maize.

Robert Klein: Yes.

Michael Ford: I remember the animal husbandry more specifically because a lot of us were going to be in areas in the central highlands where everybody was going to have a cow and there were going to be sheep. So we had to learn some very basic things about the husbandry of cattle, sheep. There was also, again, a focus on grain production. I remember we saw pictures in a lecture about pyrethrum, which I had never heard of.

Robert Klein: Right, right.

Michael Ford: And actually I think it was at that point a couple of former colonial types, farm owners, were there to talk to us.

Robert Klein: From Kenya?

Michael Ford: From Kenya. Yeah, mostly it was, um, I'm pretty sure they were all faculty.

Robert Klein: Right, right. But they were trying to say, well, this is the way it works over there in Kenya.

Michael Ford: That's right, yeah. And, you know, talk about special aspects of animal husbandry and the problem with the native cows and how you had to keep them from breeding with the European cows and that kind of thing.

Robert Klein: But didn't you feel like a fraud? I mean, you think.

Michael Ford: I did. I thought it was the craziest thing in the world. You know, in a week now, I'm going to go over and be the expert.

Robert Klein: But you didn't point this out to anyone else?

Michael Ford: No, I kept quiet about it. You know, there was a feeling that we got that was communicated, if not directly, it was clearly communicated indirectly that, look, you guys are bright, you got BAs. And even though you've only got a week, you're going to be years ahead of the Africans you're working with so you will know more than they do. Turned out that was a complete falsehood too.

Robert Klein: Of course. Yeah.

Michael Ford: But there was this presumption, and I think this was true in all the early Peace Corps times, that if you've got a BA and, you know, you have a good record, we can train you to do anything.

Robert Klein: Right, right. There were several lawyers in the group, weren't there?

Michael Ford: Yeah, there were at least two or three. No, three. Mohan, Davidson, and Baker. Yeah, there were three.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: And all of them had joined, I guess, immediately after finishing law school. So they had more education. There might even have been one or two people with masters. I'm not 100 percent sure, but most of us were newly minted BAs.

Robert Klein: And was there any kind of test on the ag portion at the end?

Michael Ford: Yeah, there were tests, you know, written kinds. We didn't have to perform anything.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: We did have to in groups sort of actually touch these animals and things from time to time, you know.

Robert Klein: I would have lost it right there.

Michael Ford: They actually showed us how to inseminate a cow.

Robert Klein: Okay. And did you or?

Michael Ford: I did not then. But I did do it once in Kenya.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: They showed us how the hooves of the sheep had to be trimmed to prevent foot rot. And you'd put this purple stuff on it, you know, all kinds of things.

Robert Klein: Now were the, there was two married couples at the beginning?

Michael Ford: Let's see. Dakin.

Robert Klein: Three.

Michael Ford: Three. Mohan, Dakin, and Janet and her husband.

Robert Klein: Benson.

Michael Ford: Benson.

Robert Klein: Okay. Did the women took part in the training alongside?

Michael Ford: They did.

Robert Klein: So there was no distinction.

Michael Ford: Right alongside.

Robert Klein: So the assumption was they were as much volunteers.

Michael Ford: Exactly.

Robert Klein: Okay. It's not always the case.

Michael Ford: The only time that it became obvious that there were real gender differences, I remember was when we had our motorcycle training in Kenya. And the women, a couple of them were small, Mohan was, and the women got special treatment on the motorcycle training, but otherwise they went through it just the way we did, everything.

Robert Klein: So Madison wraps up and you're back in Milwaukee with about how many weeks left for training?

Michael Ford: Maybe three.

Robert Klein: Okay. The tension is still very high?

Michael Ford: Very high, because there's at least one selection, deselection coming.

Robert Klein: Okay. And were you still being pulled out for psychological interviews all through?

Michael Ford: I think so. I think so. Yeah.

Robert Klein: And were some people interviewed more than others?

Michael Ford: That you don't know because they kept it secret.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: Really very closely guarded.

Robert Klein: Another, sometimes when groups begin to coalesce in training, there's a problem because often another technique they use for selection is peer ratings. I don't know, do you?

Michael Ford: I don't recall anything like that.

Robert Klein: You didn't, uh, you'd like to be assigned with X, but not Y?

Michael Ford: I don't remember that.

Robert Klein: Okay. It may not have been used.

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: Anything else about training?

Michael Ford: No. I just remember it as being utterly exhausting because we were on the go all the time without hardly any break.

Robert Klein: At any point in the training, was there discussion of the role you as Peace Corps might play going into a newly independent African country?

Michael Ford: A lot of points.

Robert Klein: That there'd be suspicion of you and so forth?

Michael Ford: Absolutely.

Robert Klein: Do you recall the flavor of that?

Michael Ford: I thought that was done relatively well. I do remember people saying that a country, they won't have a clue about who you are because they won't have had contact, but many people will be suspicious and think you're CIA and other kinds of things. And they talked about the role and how we should handle things. And I was impressed that somebody, I'm not sure who, whether it was the director of the training, made it clear that not only were we not connected to things like the CIA, but should we ever be approached, we should make it clear to them that we were Peace Corps and would not countenance any kind of extra involvement of that sort.

Robert Klein: And was there any discussion about particular, specifically about Africa, an African American going into the African setting of Kenya?

Michael Ford: Not one word.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: Interestingly.

Robert Klein: And we'll speak about that a little later but. And the other African Americans, there was nothing special about the training in relation to them? They were just part of the group?

Michael Ford: Right. The only one who had any sort of real difference was Roland Johnson, because Roland had been on Peace Corps staff before he became a volunteer.

Robert Klein: Ah, okay. I didn't know that.

Michael Ford: Yeah, or came straight to. And I recall that Roland, and maybe one or two of the other people, took pains to make it clear that he wasn't an undercover person because he actually talked. I remember him saying during, during training that there were a couple of people in the group with whom he'd spoken as a member of the staff, whether recruiting or whatever.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: Answering questions. So he tried to make it clear that he had decided to volunteer and he wasn't, you know, a special agent of Peace Corps.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: And he got accepted pretty quickly. So he was the only one for whom there was anything special.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: Lenny and I, you know, we were just there, as was Roland.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Training finally comes to an end, and the final selection is announced. Do you recall how that was done?

Michael Ford: Not with great specificity. I mean, this last young man was deselected and again hied off before anybody could see him.

Robert Klein: Mm hmm.

Michael Ford: And I remember that a lot of us were really pissed at that mode of selection. But at that point, we were also relieved it was done and we were going and it was now time to pack up and go to Kenya, that we didn't have as much time or energy to be pissed as relieved that training was over. But again, it was this very mysterious process. And you didn't have any chance to take leave of the person and find out what they'd been told because they were gone.

Robert Klein: Yeah. So once training is over, what month was it then? Was it December?

Michael Ford: December.

Robert Klein: Did you get any time at home?

Michael Ford: We did. My memory is it was maybe nearly a week.

Robert Klein: Okay. And you then are buying enough underwear to last you two years?

Michael Ford: Yes.

Robert Klein: And handkerchiefs.

Michael Ford: Exactly. Saying goodbye to everybody, you know.

Robert Klein: What was the reaction of your folks and friends now that you're on your way?

Michael Ford: Um, I think there still was the trepidation about the distance, because communication was not impossible, but extraordinarily difficult so. And mail took forever and you could barely make a phone call, you know. So there still was the concern about the distance and not being able to get their hands on you immediately if anything was wrong. But by the time the training was over, certainly my family knew that this was something I was going to do, and they knew I was a pretty strong character. So they didn't worry that it wasn't anything I could handle.

Robert Klein: You didn't have any second thoughts?

Michael Ford: No, absolutely committed.

Robert Klein: Okay. So you pack it up and then report where?

Michael Ford: New York, where I think we must have met at the airport. There wasn't a meeting before that, and we were introduced to the other half of Kenya I, whom we had never met, the education group.

Robert Klein: And that was about 50 teachers?

Michael Ford: Yeah, about 50 teachers.

Robert Klein: And how many were then in your group, 30 something?

Michael Ford: Yeah, 33, 34. Somewhere like that. And so we met them and I don't know whether or not there was a meal at the airport, but we got the powder on a little bit because I remember when we all filed on to the plane, it was a TWA plane, and there was a little bit of mixing. Not much, just a little bit. You know, people met one or two people who either were from the same town or had gone to the same school, had something in common. But mostly you hung with the people you knew.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And as I say, they were an interesting group. I remember one or two people I met on the plane. And we flew to Madrid. And I want to say we were there nearly overnight. Then we flew. Strange, we made two stops. I think we might have stopped in Athens, but that was short. Whatever the second stop, Madrid was a long stop. Then we went somewhere else and then straight on to Nairobi.

Robert Klein: Mm hmm. I'll ask you, do you recall your reception when you got to Kenya?

Michael Ford: I do.

Robert Klein: Tell me about it.

Michael Ford: We arrived at the airport, which was a provincial seeming thing then. I mean, the new Jomo Kenyatta Airport is quite big and imposing. But this was a smallish airport.

Robert Klein: This was just a year after independence.

Michael Ford: A year after independence.

Robert Klein: Okay, so.

Michael Ford: So it's December and it's really warm.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: And I remember many of us getting off in our overcoats because, you know, we got on the plane in New York, it was colder there. And this extraordinarily bright tropical scene unfolds in front of you.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And there's a whole coterie of Kenyans lined up to greet us as we're getting off the plane.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: Among them is Jomo Kenyatta.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Ford: And there were talks and speeches, not long lasting, but very impressive. While we tried to figure out how do we get rid of these damn overcoats because we're sweating bullets.

Robert Klein: Was anyone in your group chosen as a spokesman?

Michael Ford: Philip Schafer.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: And did he give remarks in Swahili?

Michael Ford: He gave a few. And I doubt that I.

Robert Klein: Woke up the crowd?

Michael Ford: I don't think I can do this before you leave, but I'll look. I recently discovered a tape of that and I'll see if I can't find it.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: Quickly. But, you know, it's in all the packing up stuff. If it's handy, I'll, I'll actually give it to you and you can make a copy.

Robert Klein: Okay. Okay.

Michael Ford: I'll find it eventually.

Robert Klein: Yeah, yeah.

Michael Ford: So, the greeting.

Robert Klein: Was the American ambassador? Who was the American ambassador?

Michael Ford: Attwood.

Robert Klein: And he was there, I'm sure.

Michael Ford: He was there.

Robert Klein: And your friendly Peace Corps staff?

Michael Ford: Yes. Dotty Chambers and Tom Quimby.

Robert Klein: Tom was the?

Michael Ford: Tom was there. He was the director.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: I'm trying to think who, if anybody, was the associate. It had to have been somebody for the teachers. I just, I don't remember. I don't think. Well, you weren't there yet. Were you?

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: Were you there?

Robert Klein: Yeah. I may have been off checking on everything. I was. Yeah. So big reception.

Michael Ford: Big reception.

Robert Klein: How did it feel to be in Kenya?

Michael Ford: It was really extraordinary. I mean, we were all a little sick, many of us, because we'd had 50,000 inoculations before leaving. And, you know, you're tired because it was a long trip. But simultaneously.

Robert Klein: Was it a charter flight?

Michael Ford: No.

Robert Klein: No, it was commercial.

Michael Ford: It was commercial.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: And we were elated finally to be here, you know, to see Kenya and Africans and.

Robert Klein: Was there any publicity in the Chicago papers when you left or by then the Peace Corps was routine?

Michael Ford: I think Peace Corps was routine.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: Enough that it didn't mention.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And there was a kind of gala reception at the airport and then later there was a big party somewhere in Kenya. We stayed again at a Y for a week or two maybe.

Robert Klein: Both groups?

Michael Ford: Both groups. There was in-country training with local people for the most part doing, doing the training.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: There was some language.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: It's funny. It brings back memories. Ayeesh Genovie was our language teacher expert and there were other people in too.

Robert Klein: Are the two groups together during this time, or were the teachers being peeled off and sent out to schools?

Michael Ford: I think we were together, at least initially. And then they may have been peeled off.

Robert Klein: Okay, let's concentrate on your experience. Do you recall at what point you? At what point in the whole process did you get any kind of definition of what the job is that you were going to be assigned to?

Michael Ford: During that two week period, the training included a number of visits by people from Settlement.

Robert Klein: So that's, that's the ministry. It's an agency within the Kenya government that concentrates on these.

Michael Ford: The resettlement projects.

Robert Klein: Land resettlement areas.

Michael Ford: It was actually a ministry.

Robert Klein: It was a ministry, okay.

Michael Ford: And the minister came.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: A couple of assistant associate ministers.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: And then the Department of Lands and Settlement, the actual organization, the director, the associate director, and then real people from the field. There were visits.

Robert Klein: At that point, weren't there still a significant number of white Kenyans as well as?

Michael Ford: Yes.

Robert Klein: African Kenyans in the ministries?

Michael Ford: Absolutely. The minister was African, but almost all of the department heads were European.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: Almost all.

Robert Klein: Now, this is 1964. Just.

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: Do you remember when you had your first coherent discussion or talk in Swahili?

Michael Ford: Yeah, actually, it was during that sort of Nairobi phase. I remember now we were first at this Y. Really we got sent to the Kenya Institute, KIA, of Administration. That's where we are for this two week period. And there were service people and other people, like we got introduced to some of the kinds of people who were going to be staff out in the field, that assistance.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: And I remember having a conversation in Swahili with one of the agricultural assistants.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: Had little English. Most of these folk had technical training and spoke a teeny bit of English, perhaps, but Swahili was their lingua franca.

Robert Klein: But many, many of them also would have a first language like Kikuyu.

Michael Ford: Oh, yeah. All of them.

Robert Klein: So Swahili was an added on and then English would be on top of that.

Michael Ford: Exactly.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: I remember my first conversation there. I was surprised. While we were training, some of the teachers talked to us about this phrase Kiswahili cha jikoni, meaning Kiswahili in the kitchen.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: Which is, you know, broken Swahili that real Swahili speakers don't use. I remember learning, the Swahili that we learned was the correct Swahili. And it's, it's a beautiful language full of concordances and so forth. Nobody used it. It's like, um, kitchen Swahili reminds you of the English equivalent in the movies where people are talking to Native Americans. How, me speak to? You know, that kind of Swahili. I no go.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Ford: And it threw me off a little. I mean, I could understand it, but I expected people to speak the way we'd been taught, but almost nobody did.

Robert Klein: Okay, um, but you were able to jump into Swahili conversation without hesitation, even though there was some surprises there.

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: At what point during the two, at any point during the two weeks were you asked any, anything about assignment preference? You'd rather be alone or with or in this area or that?

Michael Ford: There were discussions of that kind.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And I don't know whether that got all the weight in the world. I think there were clearly personal considerations that determined where people were sent. Preferences may have had something to do with, but.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: And I learned that I got sent to one of the most forlorn places because it was presumed that I could handle it. And I was good at language and I had the kind of personality. So it was that rather than my preference. I don't think I would have chosen my spot.

Robert Klein: Okay. Initially you were assigned alone?

Michael Ford: No. Well, certainly there weren't other Peace Corps people, but initially all of us, without exception, were assigned as assistant settlement officers. So we worked with the settlement officer at some place, and there was a period of training, mentorship. As many settlement officers were European then as African.

Robert Klein: Oh.

Michael Ford: Mine was African. He was from [inaudible].

Robert Klein: And where were you assigned?

Michael Ford: Thomsons Falls.

Robert Klein: Can you give a quick description of where it is?

Michael Ford: It's 160 or 70 miles from Nairobi north and east. It was an area of some European settlement. Lots of sheep, pyrethrum. [phone rings] The center of European settlement was the Thomsons Falls Country Club, which I visited once or twice, and you know, there were Europeans still around and there was horse racing and genteel drinking and.

Robert Klein: There was a, there were a fair number of white Kenyans who stayed on after independence and were considered Kenyan citizens.

Michael Ford: Right.

Robert Klein: Citizens?

Michael Ford: Right.

Robert Klein: Okay. What was the traditional area you were in? Was it Kikuyu?

Michael Ford: Kikuyu. Totally Kikuyu. Most of the Europeans with whom we worked, I think, hadn't planned on remaining permanently in Kenya. It was a sort of transitional period until they made arrangements for the next stage of life.

Robert Klein: Did many of them go on to Rhodesia and South Africa?

Michael Ford: Most did. Some went to Britain, but many went to South Africa.

Robert Klein: Yeah. So well, we'll get that when we get into the job situation. So now the group, after two weeks, is finally breaking up and going out to assignments. Was that a wrench? I mean, you'd been together.

Michael Ford: It was.

Robert Klein: And there's an intensity.

Michael Ford: There was, and I remember it vividly. Yeah.

Robert Klein: Talk about it.

Michael Ford: We were at KIA, and all of a sudden these trucks and Land Rovers show up to pick us up. And they'd been sent from the particular place where we were going to all be going. And we had by then been given motorcycle training and assigned motorcycles.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay.

Michael Ford: So we all had motorcycles and helmets and three years worth of underwear and, you know, toilet tissue, because we knew we weren't ever going to get real toilet tissue. So we're all packed up in these, these bundles and a Land Rover came to get me from the settlement scheme where I was going.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And you had a time getting the damn motorcycle in there.

Robert Klein: Of course.

Michael Ford: In position.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: The driver was Akamba who spoke no English whatsoever. And one of the clerks from the office there came. And he had decent English.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: The settlement officer didn't come. [tape break]

Robert Klein: So they picked you up. Finally figured out how to get the motorcycle. Did Peace Corps supply the motorcycle?

Michael Ford: Actually the government of Kenya issued it.

Robert Klein: So it was, what kind of cycle was it?

Michael Ford: A Triumph.

Robert Klein: So it was British made. Okay.

Michael Ford: And everybody got one. And they all had government licenses. Mine was GK3040.

Robert Klein: Did, did everyone took? Not everyone had ridden motorcycles before.

Michael Ford: No, I hadn't.

Robert Klein: So all of a sudden. Were there any serious mishaps?

Michael Ford: Not serious, but there were spills. You know, they trained us at the Kenya Institute of Administration.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And, you know, once they did it, I remember this guy, Buckminster, who came out and trained us. We had two or three sessions. Once they did it, they assumed, all right, you're ready. You know, that's it. Now, the good thing about it was this is '64, '65.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: In Kenya, there were only a handful of cars up country.

Robert Klein: Yes.

Michael Ford: Nairobi is a little car but nothing.

Robert Klein: Yeah. The growth came later.

Michael Ford: Yeah, much later.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: So I'm sure there would have been many more mishaps and even fatalities if the road had been more crowded because, um, we just were far from expert.

Robert Klein: Do you recall if Peace Corps put any restrictions on your use of the cycle?

Michael Ford: Peace Corps didn't, but the government did. We had to follow government regulations, which was no personal use.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: I mean, you can use it to go into town to get groceries.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: But you couldn't take it on holiday.

Robert Klein: Into the city. Right. Right. And of course, no one ever did.

Michael Ford: Nobody ever did.

Robert Klein: Okay, we'll get there. So now you go off into the wild blue yonder in the truck with a Swahili speaking truck driver.

Michael Ford: Uh huh.

Robert Klein: And mostly it's a relatively short trip.

Michael Ford: Actually, um, probably. I mean, you couldn't do a lot of fast driving. I want to say it was 4 hours anyway. More than that maybe. Four or 5 hours. Because, I mean, the roads were rutted, and, you know, you couldn't do 60.

Robert Klein: Were you at all apprehensive? I mean, you're really going into the unknown at this point.

Michael Ford: I was, because I didn't know the place or really anybody where I was going, and it had been made clear to me that I was on an escarpment. The settlement scheme was called Shamata. The Thomsons Falls was this town, but really where I was going was Shamata. And you'd go from Thomsons Falls up on the escarpment, up 9,000 some odd feet in altitude. And there was nothing up there except, you know, the Aberdares.

Robert Klein: Yeah. The mountains.

Michael Ford: And nothing was nearby. So you could come back to T Falls, which I want to say was 20 miles or so, you know, rough miles.

Robert Klein: From the scheme?

Michael Ford: From the scheme.

Robert Klein: Where you ended up.

Michael Ford: Yeah. So.

Robert Klein: Yeah, go ahead.

Michael Ford: I was a little apprehensive about being in a place so distant, you know?

Robert Klein: In sending you out, had Peace Corps set up any kind of emergency communication system? I mean, if you were to double over with some disease, you would jump on your cycle and drive 6 hours.

Michael Ford: Not to my knowledge.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: Not to my knowledge. What they did was they gave us a medical kit and said you're on your own.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: It's a pretty well supplied medical kit, but.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Yeah. And was there any, I guess it may have come later, any talk of if there's political trouble, this is what you should do? Or if we need to get in touch with you in a crisis?

Michael Ford: I don't remember that, at least initially. I do remember vaguely some sense that if there was trouble, there were gathering spots where.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay.

Michael Ford: But, you know, where I was the only way to get in touch with me was to ride up there.

Robert Klein: No, well, okay, on the scheme?

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: No phones.

Michael Ford: No phones.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: There were some phones in T Falls.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: But not on the scheme.

Robert Klein: So you arrive in Thomsons Falls and?

Michael Ford: I'm in the town. I meet the settlement officer, Ephraim Nifalma. Wonderful man of some real reputation, which I'll tell you about in a minute.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And just a very cheery, outgoing, quite bright man with pretty good English too. So he greets me, and he has a sense of humor. Kind of raucous, straightforward sense of humor. And we ride up together, and he drops me off at the house where I'm supposed to be. And, you know, we get sort of unpacked. And then my trepidation and anxiety really come to the fore. No lights. No working toilet. You know, a minimum of furniture.

Robert Klein: Yes.

Michael Ford: And it was, I want to say, a couple, three miles from his place.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And, you know, I was going to be, I didn't have any factotum. Nobody hired. I'm there. So I spent the first night in this house by myself. And next morning, got on the bike, drove to the scheme office, met him, and told him I wasn't staying there. He thought that was funny. He said, alright, you come stay in my house, which was quite generous. But it turns out, one it was an enormous house and we could actually divide it in half and have two separate parts. He wasn't there much. Ephraim, okay, a little bit about Ephraim. Ephraim had been in the Home Guard. These were the Kenyans who really were part of a quasi-military arm of the colonialist government.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: Whose job was to keep order and to really be one of the first lines of defense against the Mau Mau.

Robert Klein: Right. Right.

Michael Ford: And as you can imagine, in Kikuyu areas, they were despised. Ephraim was really bright and quite competent.

Robert Klein: Was he Kikuyu?

Michael Ford: He was Kikuyu, yeah. He, in fact, was head of the Home Guard unit that captured Dedan Kimathi, the Mau Mau hero of all time.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: So he was known, um, and had a reputation. I remember some of the Africans saying, yes, we had this dog and the dog's name, you know, everything was ferocious. And so part of the after effects of that was Ephraim was not a happy person in an all Kikuyu sort of setting. And when government took over and, you know, largely African, Ephraim was in Settlement, so they stuck him up there. In a way, it's kind of punishment because Shamata, my settlement scheme, was a settlement scheme that was made available to former Mau Mau. So he wasn't, I mean, nobody beat him, but his life was not easy.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: So he didn't spend much time on the scheme.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: He would go Friday. He lived in Njebi. He would, he had his own vehicle. He'd drive into T Falls, leave the government vehicle, take his vehicle and go to Njebi. And he'd come back maybe Tuesday, as we had our settlement meetings on Tuesday.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: And he drive with me back to the scheme. He'd be there Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and then he's off.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: So for the most part.

Robert Klein: Did he have a family in Njebi?

Michael Ford: Yeah, big family in the Njebi.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: So, you know, half the week or more, he wasn't there. So I was pretty much on my own.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And it was easy to share the house because he was on his own there and wasn't there most of the time.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: And we got along fine. You know, he was a boon companion, but he was really not happy where he was.

Robert Klein: Well, okay, let's think about the first weeks.

Michael Ford: Sure.

Robert Klein: You're way out at the end of nowhere, with Ephraim not being a hands on, right there settlement officer. First, second, third day. What did you do?

Michael Ford: Well, the settlement operation was reasonably well organized in most places to the extent that there was an office, there was a staff, and there were ongoing operations. You know, the veterinary assistants and agriculturalists all had jobs to do. And they were out instructing people and so forth.

Robert Klein: So who did they take their orders from?

Michael Ford: There's two-fold, in a sense, in that they came from separate departments, extension departments.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: But essentially they were under the control of the settlement officer. They were seconded, is the British phrase, to the settlement scheme. And the settlement officer ran everything.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: So I worked with them and they were happy to have me be there because Ephraim wasn't around a lot, you know. So they, they taught me and they came to me with questions and.

Robert Klein: But the first week, what the hell did you know?

Michael Ford: I didn't know much. But, you know, it's funny, that business about having a BA and being able to do some stuff. I knew, for example, how to create a ledger.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: And so we made a real ledger because you had to keep track of the loan accounts and all of the disbursements for each farmer. So you know, went in, got these big books, and it was all by hand but we made real ledgers and columns headed with, you know, what did I know? But it was common sense. So it was stuff like that that needed to be done. People hadn't been there that long. So, you know, things were, the operation was in its infancy.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Well, so was independence.

Michael Ford: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. In fact, there was still people coming in.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: So there were regulations and procedures. Each person was to get so much of X and Y, and when you had the distribution, you had to record and they had to sign.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: So I did things like create the ledger and help them construct records. And they would take me out often, you know, they'd be on the back of the motorcycle and we'd go around and look at this issue and this issue.

Robert Klein: That would be you and one of the other settlements officers?

Michael Ford: One of the settlement staff, yeah. Sometimes, you know, Ephraim would be there. Um. Oftentimes the office would fill people with questions and issues and problems and requests. So you'd spend a lot of time in the office trying to figure out what they wanted and what you could do to help.

Robert Klein: And were you the point of first contact or?

Michael Ford: Pretty much, when Ephraim wasn't there.

Robert Klein: Right, right. Well, let me, let me ask you a question. Well, two questions. Why did Peace Corps have to do this? Why weren't there Kenyans to fill?

Michael Ford: Because they weren't trained yet. They, in fact, this is another really good thing about Peace Corps. They made it clear to us, particularly when we got to the country and being trained, if you're really successful, if you do your job, when you leave, there'll be a Kenyan to replace you. So you should be working yourself out of a job.

Robert Klein: So that was explicit?

Michael Ford: Absolutely.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay.

Michael Ford: That's completely explicit.

Robert Klein: It doesn't always happen. Yeah. The other thing is, what was, those Kenyans you were working with immediately, the staff and then the farmers, what was their perception of who you were?

Michael Ford: They didn't have a clue who I was.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: On a couple levels.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: The white volunteers, I suspect, had a different experience and I, you would know better than I. It was clear that I was a little different. I looked different.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: They didn't know what to make of me because I didn't fit one of the easy categories. And the categories were of overriding importance in Kenya, you know. You're European. You're African. You're Asian. You might be some weird, like mixed. And, you know, jokata was a, uh, it was closer to half breed than mixed race. It wasn't a compliment to be jokata.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: And I wasn't sort of any of those. Mostly initially I was European because I looked different, I dressed different. And you know, I came from this place that was kind of European.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: But they knew that wasn't right.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: So as people asked me and I would explain my history, and this is the difference in Ghana and in the history wasn't part of who they were, you know.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: They knew about slavery, but slaves from there had gone to Arabia.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: You know, the French had been involved in. But America?

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: So they, what they, a lot of them ended up doing was giving me this separate category. The Swahili way to indicate something is an animal, a human, is to put an M in front of the noun.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: So I became Mnegro.

Robert Klein: Mnegro?

Michael Ford: You know, that was the term I used there, not Black. They'd say, well who are? You know, I'm an American Negro. So when people would want to know, well, he's Mnegro. I don't know what exactly they thought it was. They knew it was weird.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And they knew I wasn't quite European, but they weren't quite sure what it was.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: So it was exotic.

Robert Klein: Were you ever mistaken for Asian?

Michael Ford: I was. Not so much in Thomsons Falls, but in Nairobi often, because I looked Swahili and my Swahili was correct.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: So often I was mistaken for Swahili. Not the subcontinent of India Asia, no.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: But Swahili a lot.

Robert Klein: From the coast.

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: Yeah. So let's, uh, a couple of things. For the first three, four months, at the end of that, there seems to be a clear pattern of work that emerged. And did you feel any confidence in what you were doing or any confidence?

Michael Ford: Yeah, because I had a great staff. I really had people who knew what they were doing. My clerk, Kihara, spoke good English, was bright as a whip, was enormously useful and supportive. The agriculturalist and the vet, young people, had been well trained. And they had a terrific extension service. They were really very good. So I was well served by them, and a lot of what I attended to were the administrative issues like locating cattle to purchase and arranging their transport to the scheme and finding a place to get fencing material. And settling boundary disputes.

Robert Klein: And that was the kind of thing you could do?

Michael Ford: That's the kind of thing I could do.

Robert Klein: Yeah. So I'm gathering that the staff felt you had a role to play, that you weren't some annoying level of administration that had been imposed?

Michael Ford: Exactly.

Robert Klein: Um, two things. You didn't spend 24 hours in the office.

Michael Ford: No.

Robert Klein: So now, in the thick with the first six months or so, how often did you leave the scheme? Or while you were on the scheme, what did you do when you weren't working?

Michael Ford: Um, I was working. When you said you weren't in the office 24 hours, I wasn't, but I was in the house maybe 8 hours a day. The rest of the time I was on the scheme. I was either in the office or out in the field. I made it my business to visit every farmer in rotation, and I'd take notes on where they were, what their issues were, what they needed.

Robert Klein: How many farmers approximately?

Michael Ford: In Shamata, there were a couple of hundred, maybe 250.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And I just spent my time going around, you know.

Robert Klein: And in this case, in that case, the conversations were in Swahili?

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: And, you know, this one would be having trouble with that, or this one. It wasn't all trouble either, you know? Something about who was especially good at something.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: And they were pleased because people didn't go around and visit them, you know what I mean?

Robert Klein: Oh, okay. Yeah.

Michael Ford: Kind of unusual and weird, but they were wonderfully hospitable and happy to see me.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: Many of them hadn't yet finished their houses or anything, but they'd always run off and get a kettle of hot water and make some tea. Yeah, we'd sit around and drink tea. And you know, they'd talk about stuff. I did a lot of that.

Robert Klein: Did you, did you begin to get some sense of the traditional life of the people?

Michael Ford: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Robert Klein: Births, deaths, celebrations?

Michael Ford: Absolutely. And it didn't take that long to do that.

Robert Klein: Yeah. But in a way, you had the advantage. Well, there were other Europeans in, on the scheme or not?

Michael Ford: Not on the scheme.

Robert Klein: So to deal with Europeans, you had to go into?

Michael Ford: T Falls.

Robert Klein: Okay. So in a way, you were, you were in an environment where if you were going to do anything, you were involving yourself with the Kikuyu people who lived there?

Michael Ford: Absolutely. Yeah.

Robert Klein: Did, well, did you find yourself going into T Falls much, you know, just to break away and get the?

Michael Ford: I'd go maybe once every two weeks.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay.

Michael Ford: You know, I'd go. We were. The Kenya workweek included a half day Saturday and I followed that. You know, that was what you're supposed to do.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: So sometimes Saturday I'd go into T Falls, and, you know, I didn't. I knew the shopkeepers and some people around and people in the settlement office there. But I'd shop. I might grab a lunch someplace. Meet somebody. There were a couple of volunteers who were in the area sometimes, we'd meet. Then I'd go back.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Did the European community and people try to recruit you as part of their circle?

Michael Ford: They, they certainly tried to recruit.

Robert Klein: Not recruitment, but.

Michael Ford: No, no, it's a good term. Yeah, I would use it. I think they clearly tried to recruit the other volunteers. I was exotic to them too. And while I don't feel I was recruited, there were no barriers to, I mean, they were open to me.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: They went out of their way to invite volunteers to the country club, which was their gathering place.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And, you know, I'm not giving them much credit. I remember there were local families that had me and other people over. And, you know, they were interestingly sometimes kind of lonesome for European or Western company too.

Robert Klein: Okay. Yeah.

Michael Ford: So there were people in the area, not tons, but there were people. The district headquarters for settlement in T Falls was largely staffed, the upper level staff was all European.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And, you know, they, they went out of their way to be nice and open to us, sometimes invite us for dinner. And there were contractors whom we met, you know, who lived locally.

Robert Klein: Did, um, so how long before you made a trip back to Nairobi?

Michael Ford: Probably three months.

Robert Klein: And was it required to get together with the group?

Michael Ford: I think it was a required meeting, yeah, because I didn't have much occasion to go before then. I think it was probably.

Robert Klein: Do you remember when the group first got back together?

Michael Ford: It was in Nairobi. There was a meeting. We'd had meetings of people in our area in Nakuru, and that involved, you know, the people within central, not the people in the west or wherever.

Robert Klein: And that was just Peace Corps?

Michael Ford: It was just Peace Corps.

Robert Klein: And it was just the settlement people?

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: And was it, did someone come out from the Nairobi office?

Michael Ford: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know.

Robert Klein: By then, was there a staff person in charge of the settlement? I think there was.

Michael Ford: There was. George somebody?

Robert Klein: Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Michael Ford: And, so we'd try to see what was on our plates, what issues we had, what we needed, if anything, what observations we had. You know, they were going to pretty quickly put together another group, so they were interested in figuring out what they needed to know to better train the next group and that kind of thing.

Robert Klein: And how did your experience compare to when you're first getting together with the group again? How was the experience others were having?

Michael Ford: A lot of similarities. The main difference I think between and amongst us was some of us went into situations where we had more responsibility more quickly than others. Others went to places where often, you know, there was a European settlement officer and he was really in charge. And that was a major variation, you know. Also, resources. In central, we had more resources available more quickly. Some places it was more difficult to get stuff done.

Robert Klein: Was that tribal maybe?

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: So being in a Kikuyu area in a way had some advantages.

Michael Ford: Real advantages.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: Very real advantages.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: So I was there for three or four months in Thomsons Falls.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: At the end of which time, this was roughly true for most of us, this was part of the plan. Then they found spots for us to be settlement officers.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay. Was that part of the program design or did it evolve?

Michael Ford: Um, that I can't say. I know that it seemed like part of the design, that it had happened to so many of us.

Robert Klein: Right. Now, who, who was, who was in a position to make a judgment that you were ready to become a full time settlement officer?

Michael Ford: The district settlement officer. The guy in charge of the district.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay.

Michael Ford: He assigns you.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: With Peace Corps support. But it was their decision, it was strictly Settlement.

Robert Klein: Well, how did the district office get a reading on how competent you were?

Michael Ford: Well, we had meetings once a week. We had to do paperwork. They talked to us every now and then. They'd come out and visit.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: But again, we had to go in every week to the meeting.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay.

Michael Ford: They got some sense of where you were. You had to do reports.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: They got some sense of how well you knew the place. And, you know.

Robert Klein: Now, so after three, four months, you're being reassigned?

Michael Ford: Mm hmm.

Robert Klein: That couldn't have been across the board for the whole group?

Michael Ford: No, but it happened a lot.

Robert Klein: There must have been some who were judged not ready?

Michael Ford: Right. Right.

Robert Klein: You were judged ready?

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: And it came as no surprise?

Michael Ford: No, I wasn't surprised.

Robert Klein: So where'd they send you?

Michael Ford: Ol Kalou, which was still in the same region.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: But different direction.

Robert Klein: Okay. [tape break]

Michael Ford: Ol Kalou was closer to Thomsons Falls, much easier to get to. It's on the main road from Thomsons Falls that goes to Nairobi essentially.

Robert Klein: Now, had there been a settlement officer there?

Michael Ford: There had been.

Robert Klein: And what had happened to him?

Michael Ford: He was reassigned.

Robert Klein: Because he was incompetent?

Michael Ford: No, he was a youngish guy. He was moved to a more responsible position.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay.

Michael Ford: And there was that kind of shifting going on, particularly as many of the Europeans were beginning to leave. So some of the officers in places like Ol Kalou, I've forgotten where he went. I think he went to the west because he wasn't Kikuyu and sometimes I think people preferred to be in their own area. But he was reassigned.

Robert Klein: But you were still within the same district?

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: So it's still the district settlement officer?

Michael Ford: Yeah. Yeah, same district settlement officer.

Robert Klein: Okay. Is there a house waiting for you?

Michael Ford: There's a house. Really nice house, you know, compared to where I'd been in the first place.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: Very nice house.

Robert Klein: At any point did you have a steward or someone to help you?

Michael Ford: I did, actually. I did. Samatta. Because Ephraim had hired a guy. Joseph. He was a really sweet guy. You know, he was sort of a cook and everything else. And when I got transferred, Joseph said, Mr. Michael, I want to go with you. So I said, fine. So he came with me to Ol Kalou.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay.

Michael Ford: And stayed in service working with me as the cook person.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: And we were responsible for their salaries, you know, out of our Peace Corps stipend. But, hell, the average salary was so low. And even though I paid at the high end of the scale, it wasn't the problem.

Robert Klein: Right, right. So Peace Corps was paying you?

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: Yeah. We got, I think it was eight or 900 shillings a month.

Robert Klein: So it was an easy, by now you're familiar with the work and you're moving into a new environment.

Michael Ford: Yeah. But the same district settlement office, the same sort of cast of characters.

Robert Klein: And the new office that you're now in charge of?

Michael Ford: Yeah. The folks weren't quite as, they were okay.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: They weren't quite of the caliber. So, you know, I had a little more work to do to get them trained and so forth, but they were perfectly fine. And it was a bigger scheme, it was 400 families.

Robert Klein: And you could do most of the training?

Michael Ford: Yeah. I did.

Robert Klein: Did you continue the practice of trying to visit all 400?

Michael Ford: I did.

Robert Klein: That wasn't common, I mean.

Michael Ford: No. That was pretty uncommon. But, you know, one, it's fun and I'm gregarious and love to get out and joke with people. It was just, it was a delight to get out and meet folk, you know. And they were really thrilled and often surprised. Then, you know, once you start doing it, they sort of come to expect it, not in an untoward way, but initially was a real surprise because the only time anybody visited them was if there was a problem.

Robert Klein: So now when you're running the office, do you encounter problems you can't solve, I mean, or questions you can't answer? I mean, you're not an expert by any means.

Michael Ford: Yeah, I do encounter some tough problems. You know, there are guys who've got local bulls and I'm supposed to make them castrate them because you don't want the local bulls inseminating the European stock. And that's difficult, you know, to. And you're supposed to, if necessary, really use force. [tape break] But there's human with tractors drawing lines. And so these were hard.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: You do the best you could. But, you know, often everybody wasn't satisfied. So there were local problems of that level.

Robert Klein: Did people have any appeal over your head if they wanted?

Michael Ford: Oh, they could go to the senior settlement officer.

Robert Klein: In the district?

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: Did it, did it happen?

Michael Ford: No, not really. You know, because mostly I worked to try to come up with a reasonable and fair solution.

Robert Klein: Where people working mostly as subsistence farmers or?

Michael Ford: Pretty much. Well, beyond that there was subsistence farming, but almost all of them had something to sell, whether it was milk to the Kenya Cooperative Creamery. Some had some pyrethrum. Some had sheep.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: If you grew a field of pyrethrum, let's say you had an acre to. You would cultivate it, let it grow, then you collect it. And the settlement scheme, or two or three settlement schemes, would pool the resources to buy a drying device. You'd dry the stuff and you'd take it in to Pyrethrum Board where it would be weighed and you'd get credit and ultimately some money for it. So there was that kind of thing that most farmers were engaged in. There was wool to be sold if you had some sheep.

Robert Klein: And did you tend to coordinate that kind of activity?

Michael Ford: Yes.

Robert Klein: Was there any ever any sense of combining plots to do large scale pyrethrum growing on a basis of efficiency?

Michael Ford: No. Sadly.

Robert Klein: And was Ol Kalou a scheme where the issue of inheritance became a problem? In other words, a farmer's three sons would expect to each get a piece of his land. Or how did that work?

Michael Ford: It was so new then, Bob, that inheritance wasn't an issue that I got faced with, but it certainly, almost certainly would have occurred down the road when the farmer died.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: But again, by then, when I got Ol Kalou, it was maybe three years old.

Robert Klein: Okay, we'll leave it. Um. So, okay, let's bring it toward the end of the first year. During the first year, did you take any vacation at all?

Michael Ford: I might have, uh. I might have gone to Nairobi.

Robert Klein: You're not going to tell the story about going to Malindi?

Michael Ford: No. No. Actually, my best vacation, longest vacation, I'm not sure, it was probably after I was on Ol Kalou a little bit. And maybe it was by the end of the first year, you know, first 14 months. I had become friends with some of the teachers, especially Rose Levinson.

Robert Klein: Levine.

Michael Ford: Levine. And, um, Lance and Joy Sobel and some of their friends.

Robert Klein: And they were all in Nairobi?

Michael Ford: They were all in Nairobi, right. And at one point there was a teachers vacation. Sometimes these were fairly long periods in between their sessions. So I invited them all up to Ol Kalou.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay.

Michael Ford: And we had a good time. And then we all got together, rented a vehicle, and went on this long trek to the coast and to Tanzania.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: We drove to Mombasa and from Mombasa to Tonga and on. It was quite a trek.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: That was the sort of major vacation I took. You know, on the weekends when I was at Ol Kalou, we could run into Nakuru and maybe stay overnight. So there was time for fun. The major vacation was that one. That was just a blast.

Robert Klein: And you didn't, you did the game parks? You must have at some point.

Michael Ford: Yeah, we did game parks. And even on that trip, we did. In fact, there was a huge adventure. You bring all this to mind. We, uh, during this trek, we were in Uganda. We must have gone on two different vacations. We went to Uganda and we went to Murchison Falls Park.

Robert Klein: Yes, yes.

Michael Ford: On the way to Murchison Falls, we were staying at a place outside Murchison Falls because there were no lodgings within.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: And we were driving from this place to the falls. And Lance Sobell was driving. I was in the car with Jadish and Rose. Lance and Joyce and a couple of other people were in this Peugeot, and we're kind of behind them. Lance drove a little fast. At one point, we got up to a spot. We see the ass end of the Peugeot sticking out over a body of water. And what had happened was Lance was going a little too fast and didn't make a curve. And it was kind of a land bridge like thing.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And it went into the drink and everybody got out and everybody was safe, and we came upon them. So, um.

Robert Klein: Wow.

Michael Ford: I think Rose and I and a couple of other people got out so they could ferry the ones from the car who needed to be ferried to the place where we were going to stay.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And then they came back and got us. It ended up that Joyce and Lance and whoever else, there was somebody else that was in the car, they didn't actually get into Murchison. They had to wait for the car to be dealt with.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: Jadish and Rose and I, at least the three of us, I'm trying to think if there was a fourth in the VW, did get on to Murchison and you had a good time, but felt awful that our colleagues were stuck.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: So that had to be a second vacation because we wouldn't have done Uganda.

Robert Klein: By then there was also a Peace Corps in Uganda I think. You may have made contact with some of them or.

Michael Ford: I think we did. I know we did in Tanzania.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Okay.

Michael Ford: In fact, I remember a couple of the volunteers in Tanzania. But so, yeah, we, we did a couple of vacations, you know, and the vacations that I did really were with Joyce, Lance, Rose.

Robert Klein: With the teachers, yeah.

Michael Ford: Yeah. They became close buddies from the times I would go to Nairobi and we hooked up. And we just had a lot in common and liked each other a lot.

Robert Klein: End of the first year was there a group gathering?

Michael Ford: There was.

Robert Klein: Of your group?

Michael Ford: Yep.

Robert Klein: And had, was there a second group of settlement officers in the works or?

Michael Ford: I think they were maybe on the ground. I don't think we were there more than a year before they. If, if it was more than a year, it wasn't more than a year and a couple of months.

Robert Klein: Were any of you invited to help train them?

Michael Ford: Not in the States, but we were brought, a couple of us were brought into Nairobi when they came in.

Robert Klein: During the two week orientation?

Michael Ford: Yeah. And we met some of them. And some of them were going to be, you know, in the same area where we were. So.

Robert Klein: Right, right, right.

Michael Ford: And they were going to kind of start off the way we did.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: So we got to meet them and, you know, help acquaint them and situate them.

Robert Klein: Do, do you remember? I just, sorry. Do you remember any of your Thanksgivings or Christmases as being particularly lonely times? I mean, it's one of the few times maybe when some people are inclined to get homesick.

Michael Ford: I remember one Christmas. Well, the first Christmas in '64, we were still in the States.

Robert Klein: Yes.

Michael Ford: '65 was the only Christmas in Kenya.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: Because we left before Christmas in '66. So Christmas in '65, went into Nairobi. And Christmas is kind of a major holiday there. Oh, it's weird because it's, you know, hot and gorgeous.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And I remember all the celebratory stuff and there was Boxing Day and this. It was kind of nice but different, you know.

Robert Klein: Right, right.

Michael Ford: So that Christmas, I think I hung out with Rose and the Nairobi crew. I don't think we did anything for Thanksgiving.

Robert Klein: Okay. Had you been communicating back home to friends and or family?

Michael Ford: Regularly.

Robert Klein: Generally upbeat letters? You didn't tell them when you were?

Michael Ford: Always, you know, because I, I didn't have any period where I was depressed or, you know, I just, I didn't. Everything was so new. And even when things were challenging. I had a couple of rough spots.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: Real rough spots. Not, I don't think of my doing, but they were problems to be dealt with. They weren't things that made me depressed and they weren't loneliness. For example, the guy who was the area settlement controller who was over at several districts.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: And I had kind of relationship you did with Franklin Williams.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: And his name was Doug E. Kirkwood.

Robert Klein: British?

Michael Ford: British. South African.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: And he came to the scheme one day visiting around and wanted to go out his Land Rover and see a farm and he did. And I drove up with my clerk on the back of the vehicle and it bothered him, you know. And I had the kind of easy relationship, um, and it was obvious that I palled around with folks, you know?

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: Not in an appropriate way, but as human beings. And he didn't like that. And that set him off against me from the beginning.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: So what happened was he was kind of critical of me. And there was one day when a guy was supposed to come and do a kind of workshop about sheep husbandry on the settlement scheme. And it was a day when a report was due into the district office, and I had written the report. I had both my clerk, and there was a guy called the head man in the scheme, organize everybody and get them there. I was going to ride in and come back. So I did that and when I got back they said, well, the guy showed up and said he was sick and wasn't going to do it. And he left. But the guy said, I got there and the PC wasn't there, so I left. Now, both those things were true, but it was a baseless lie.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: So Kirkwood got on that. And what I did was demonstrated conclusively that I was not only there, I was ready. I had delivered an official report which was due. The senior settlement officer backed that up. And everybody else said they had gathered, they were there, and they were ready. And see, this guy made it seem like he showed up, came to the office, I wasn't there, and nothing was ready.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: Everybody was gathered. I had had them gather. So Kirkwood got under that and was really a bastard about it. And he had said, he was, he was a rugby player. And there was another volunteer, you may remember. C. Brian McDonnell.

Robert Klein: Yes.

Michael Ford: Brian and he were friends. Brian's a nice guy. By the way, Brian is a judge in this county, a Superior Court judge.

Robert Klein: Yes.

Michael Ford: He's often holding court in Northampton.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: Anyway, and Brian was a nice guy, but he and Kirkwood played rugby.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And Brian had been stuck as an assistant in a settlement scheme the whole while.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: So Kirkwood said, well, I'm going to switch you with him. I said, no, you're not. You know, the best you can do is you may send me home, but you're not switching me because this is a lie.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And Peace Corps was not terribly supportive. They didn't want to make waves. They didn't say we wouldn't back you, but they didn't move in to back me.

Robert Klein: This is, after the first year is this happening or?

Michael Ford: Yeah, it's after the first year. I'm on Ol Kalou.

Robert Klein: So the program's already been in place for a year.

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: Okay. And the second group has come?

Michael Ford: Second group has come. Yeah. And Brian didn't push him to do that. And Brian's a good guy.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: But, you know, he wanted to do Brian a favor, and he was pissed at me.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: So I actually got, proved that this guy, the sheep guy. One, that there was a guy, that the guy had actually left saying he was sick and going to get, you know, I got all that out. But Kirkwood didn't want to relent because that wasn't the real reason. He just wanted to help out Brian. So I said I wasn't doing it. And I talked to a Peace Corps person and they said, you know, you've got to sort of figure out if there's a way. In the meantime, my settlement scheme, it turned out. You may remember this really well- known guy, Josiah Mwangi Kariuki, who was assassinated.

Robert Klein: Mm hmm.

Michael Ford: It was a big cause celeb. He was a major figure in Kenyan politics. And his wife had a plot on my scheme. And she and other people really liked me because I went out of my way to do a good job and be a good person. People on the settlement scheme rose up in anger, called a meeting, and made it clear to the settlement people that this guy was lying, that they had been there. Josiah's wife, this is before he was assassinated. He was a major power. He had a big youth movement and so forth. Josiah's wife called Josiah Mwangi. She looked into it and sent word. If you send him home, you're going to have trouble. And all of a sudden the trouble disappeared. Kirkwood got sent away. And Peace Corps was.

Robert Klein: Didn't know what to do.

Michael Ford: Didn't know what to do. You know, they really didn't know what to do. In a way I guess they were kind of happy I hadn't been maltreated, but in a way they weren't pleased with the notoriety of it all.

Robert Klein: Yes. Yes.

Michael Ford: But, you know, he got sent away and everything was fine.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Ford: But that was the only trouble. And it wasn't the kind of thing I would have written home about. I wasn't worried about it. I was going to stand my ground, you know, you know.

Robert Klein: Now going sometimes, you know, going into the second year, you know that within ten months or so you're going to, your tour is over.

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: And sometimes people say, well, before I leave, you know, I'd like to at least to accomplish X, Y, Z, or have gotten this far. Don't let me put words in your mouth. But was that an element?

Michael Ford: Absolutely. Yeah, I had an agenda. There were certain issues and problems that needed to be dealt with, that I thought were important. For example, we didn't have a cattle dip and I broke my butt trying to get it organized, to get it done. Ultimately, we did get it dug and put up.

Robert Klein: Now, you have to deal with other ministries to do that.

Michael Ford: Absolutely. And get the money and get the.

Robert Klein: Now where would you get money from?

Michael Ford: From Lands and Settlement.

Robert Klein: Okay. Okay.

Michael Ford: They were supposed to do it, you know, but some places got favored and, you know, it just took forever to get anything done.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: So I got a cattle dip. I got a couple of other major projects done. And one of the most fun things I did, actually, Marie Gadsden came to. I did this big, um.

Robert Klein: Marie was a Peace Corps staff member in charge of education.

Michael Ford: Yeah. She was in the area, and I invited her to what was an agricultural fair for the scheme. You know, it was an idea I stole from lots of places. We didn't do this shit in Chicago.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: But what I did was I announced we're going to have a competition and it's going to be a big celebration with prizes. The best pumpkin, the best dish, you know, the Judas cow. So we had all these categories, and, you know, we had a good time. We, uh, we had food, and then everybody showed up.

Robert Klein: On the scheme?

Michael Ford: On the scheme, right. And Marie was there. I had solicited from the Asian duka owners, you know, pawn goods and other prizes. And they were happy to give them, you know, they weren't expensive gifts. I don't remember what the most expensive thing was, but they were all on that level. They're mostly implements that'd be useful on the scheme. So we had this thing and we invited all the settlement people and some people from nearby schemes and, you know, there was food, they had slaughtered a cow, and there were speeches. The senior settlement officer was there and it was just a blast. And Marie just went back and extolled it, you know.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Okay.

Michael Ford: And I, I did something that she, she overrated. But it was kind of fun. I mean, I lived amongst the Kikuyu for a while. I didn't do a serious study of their language, but I knew phrases, so I addressed them in Kikuyu.

Robert Klein: Uh huh.

Michael Ford: She was just blown away.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: So those were some of the things that I wanted to get done.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: The fair, one, because it was a community building fun thing, but also to sort of highlight people who really were successful.

Robert Klein: Right, right.

Michael Ford: The cattle dip was another.

Robert Klein: What about the the goal that was supposedly part of the program of identifying or finding a replacement? Were you able to do anything for that?

Michael Ford: Absolutely. I saw to the continued training of my staff and the man who was clerk, Erastus Kihara, I pushed really hard and got him first to be sort of assistant to me. Brought him from Shamata to Ol Kalou.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: Got him to be assistant. And when I left, he became a settlement officer.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay. Was there, was there any exam or was it strictly?

Michael Ford: It was training. I don't know. There might have been exams during the training.

Robert Klein: Right. And the training was done by the Settlement ministry itself?

Michael Ford: Yes. Exactly.

Robert Klein: So you encouraged him to take whatever courses that were being offered?

Michael Ford: Absolutely.

Robert Klein: And was he aware that you would tapped him to?

Michael Ford: Oh, yeah. You know, he was ambitious and wanted it.

Robert Klein: Yeah, yeah.

Michael Ford: And was quite pleased.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: Um, it was a delight to be able to do it. He was. There are a lot of competent people, you know. He was a standout, but the system was really very, very good.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: It wasn't a spot I could put him in because their ministry was separate in a sense, or their department was, but within Settlement. And I don't think I was the only one who did that. I know that it happened in a couple of instances where people had been identified.

Robert Klein: As you come to the end of the second year, did you at all consider the idea of extending your tour to, because you never quite finished with the things you're trying?

Michael Ford: Yeah, I gave it a little thought, I did, but I decided to come on back and go to graduate school because I wanted to do African studies and I'd gotten into Northwestern, which was my dream.

Robert Klein: So you had applied while you were in Kenya?

Michael Ford: I had applied while I was in Kenya. And was accepted into Northwestern.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay.

Michael Ford: And this was sheer luck. One of the people who came during our training in Milwaukee was a linguist who talked to us about Swahili and, um, I'm slipping on her name right now, but she ended up in the linguistics department at Northwestern and really pushed me to come. And I got a really good fellowship so.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: I decided to come on in. I knew that even though I was leaving this particular venture, that doing what I was about to do was going to bring me back.

Robert Klein: Yeah, uh, let's stick with the Peace Corps experience.

Michael Ford: Sure.

Robert Klein: Without your being overly modest, I assume you were probably considered one of the better volunteers in the group.

Michael Ford: I suspect so.

Robert Klein: And often, well, certainly even by '66, the Peace Corps was recruiting very aggressively among returned, the stars of returned volunteers. Were you approached at all?

Michael Ford: I was, uh, by local staff people wanted me to consider it. But, you know, I was pretty clear by then that I was going to go on to graduate school. So it didn't. It came up. But since I was clear about what I was doing, there was no pressure.

Robert Klein: You've been accepted at Northwestern. Okay. And it's for a master's degree or just?

Michael Ford: PhD program.

Robert Klein: In African studies?

Michael Ford: African studies. Political science, but the African Studies Program.

Robert Klein: Okay. So did Peace Corps invited you to stay on or they wanted you to?

Michael Ford: I had a discussion with the staff. Jim Black, I think, was the guy's name.

Robert Klein: Mm hmm.

Michael Ford: And he clearly encouraged me to stay because he and I got along really well.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: And, uh, but again, you know, I was thrilled with my Peace Corps service, but I wanted to really go do the African studies. So I was pretty clear and I'd been accepted and had a fellowship. So, um, that, that was fine with me.

Robert Klein: Was there a termination conference? Often at the end of service, the group would get.

Michael Ford: There was.

Robert Klein: Want to talk about that?

Michael Ford: Yeah. We got together for a couple of days in Nairobi and there were a lot of discussion and I have this bizarre memory. I think it's right. But there were one or two volunteers who had had a really sour experience and they were down on the Peace Corps. The Bensons, at least Michael, maybe Janet a little bit, but at least Michael really had been unhappy. And, you know, we had to do questionnaires.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And you'd fill them out and they'd announce that 87 percent of you had a fabulous time and one of you hated it.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And I have this peculiar kind of ethic. I've noticed at least one other occasion when I'm making a major transition, I get unusually quiet and reflexive. And I'm thinking about where have I been, what has it been like. I said, uncharacteristically, almost nothing. And some of the young people who were my friends thought I was one of the ones who had hated it.

Robert Klein: Oh, oh.

Michael Ford: It was the furthest thing from the truth. It's just that I was thinking about all that I learned, all the people I knew, and a little bit about, all right, what does the next step mean? And I just, I was ruminating rather than anything else. And, you know, a couple of times there were a couple of, three answers that were negative and Benson was obvious and nobody knew who the others were. But because, as I say, I wasn't saying anything, some people thought it was me.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: I had a fabulous time and.

Robert Klein: And generally did most of the group have a sense that they had achieved something?

Michael Ford: Absolutely. Strongly positive feelings. As I say, it was striking that a couple of people would have such negative feelings.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Well, sometimes the negative feelings may be in relation to Peace Corps staff, and that's totally separate in many ways from the job that you're doing.

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: If you're successful as a volunteer, you've probably integrated more toward the job you're doing than what Peace Corps is expecting of you.

Michael Ford: Right. I don't remember the particular complaints. I kind of think, at least with the Bensons, my memory is they were in a position that didn't work.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: For a variety of reasons, it wasn't the staff. My recollection is that for the most part, the staff were fairly highly regarded, you know, I mean.

Robert Klein: And your own, your own assessment is they were supportive?

Michael Ford: Absolutely, without question. I thought George was limited.

Robert Klein: Mm hmm.

Michael Ford: Not unsupportive, just limited, almost naive. Whereas Black was fabulous. Just a terrific person.

Robert Klein: And he was, he was in charge of the settlement part of the program?

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: So obviously, you've already given your assessment of what you feel of the two years. And on a broader sense, what do you think was the impact of having been in the Peace Corps on you?

Michael Ford: It was life shaping.

Robert Klein: Um, and can you flesh that out?

Michael Ford: Sure. Sure. I, I don't think it made me a person fundamentally different from the person who went in. It just gave new dimensions to, um. I had a perspective shaped by working with the people with whom I worked. It was internationalist, but it was also a deep appreciation for the humanity of even the poorest folk.

Robert Klein: Yeah. And you were spending time with the ordinary farmers on all schemes.

Michael Ford: Yeah. And what was amazing, you know, is with these people who are about as poor as you get, subsistence farmers.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: But their love of family, their sense of humor, their generosity was always on display. And you couldn't come away with this feeling that these are the poorest of the poor and, oh my God, we've got to help them and bring them up.

Robert Klein: There's a life there.

Michael Ford: There's a life there. An amazing life there. I think that's stayed with me. I reject the sort of analyzes of the underclass where, you know, these poor, benighted people. Lord knows we've got to pull them up out of their misery.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: There really are lives there.

Robert Klein: You must have a good sense of self confidence because you stood up to a senior settlement officer. I gather you did that without hesitation. I mean, that's pretty nervy.

Michael Ford: Yeah. I think I was raised with that. You know, I was raised by two of the strongest people I've ever known.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay.

Michael Ford: In an environment where you were not going to be as happy if you weren't forward and so confident as if you were. So I was that way from the beginning.

Robert Klein: But you proved that in an international setting.

Michael Ford: Yeah. You know, I've done that throughout my life, battling, you know, even in high school. But, you know, I knew, I'm. [tape break]

Robert Klein: So, uh, you're now, you're leaving Kenya.

Michael Ford: Mm hmm.

Robert Klein: We'll jump ahead. One of the questions I ask is, uh, in the years that followed, have you been able to have any contact with the people you worked with in Kenya? Not the volunteers, but the Kenyans. Have you maintained any ongoing contact? And I know there's a lot. Answer that in, you know, in the narrow sense, and we'll broaden it later.

Michael Ford: I have, not as directly with the farmers. But I've been back to Kenya maybe a dozen more times since.

Robert Klein: Have you been back to Ol Kalou?

Michael Ford: I went to Ol Kalou. I actually looked up my old clerk who had.

Robert Klein: How many years later is this?

Michael Ford: I went back in '87.

Robert Klein: Okay. Okay.

Michael Ford: So it was many years later.

Robert Klein: Although you had been back to Kenya in the intervening years.

Michael Ford: Yeah, I'd gone back to do dissertation research in '70.

Robert Klein: Okay, well, let's just take the Ol Kalou visit.

Michael Ford: It was phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal. People still knew me and remembered me and.

Robert Klein: Were you still Mnegro?

Michael Ford: Yeah. Yeah. Although they knew a little bit more, you know, there were TV programs and you could actually make a direct call to Kenya as opposed to booking it through London.

Robert Klein: Oh, yeah.

Michael Ford: So. Most of them remembered me. And I looked up Kihara. He'd been a successful settlement officer, moved on, and actually gotten involved in politics. And I looked up several of the farmers on Ol Kalou. I tried to find Ephraim but couldn't. He might well have been alive and well, and yet I couldn't find him while I was there. So that was a delight when I did get to visit and see. The changes were astounding.

Robert Klein: The whole settlement program has changed considerably over the 20 years.

Michael Ford: Absolutely. The European overlay that had been there.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: You know, the old houses, the old social club. All that, everything's gone. Things were much more dense.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: People were in reasonable shape, you know, I mean, they weren't well-to-do. But they grew food. They had some cash crops and some of them were doing pretty well. You know, the houses have been rebuilt and were better and had tin roofs.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: Some of the first houses, I mean, you had to build them pretty quickly. Some of the first houses were mud, mud and water, you know. But many of them had been replaced by wood structures that kind of. So it was a delight to see that. Nairobi was bigger, more congested, more smog ridden than you could imagine. The population growth has just exploded.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: I can remember that, I think. I'll ask you if this is right. I think I remember being in Nairobi on a Saturday and crossing the middle of the street. Hardly a car around, '64, '65.

Robert Klein: Yes.

Michael Ford: '87. Not even to think about it.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Ford: Just a sea change.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: The other thing that was different, and people on the scheme talked about this. When I was there, the civil service was effective, honest. If you needed something, generally you could get it. I mean, it wasn't the computer age, things were slower. But if I needed a map, I went to the Geological Survey. They looked it up and I'd get it. I went back in '87. Corruption was unbounded and you couldn't get anything done. It reminded me of the descriptions of the need for the dash in West Africa.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: It was palpable.

Robert Klein: Which you hadn't been aware of when you were there as a volunteer.

Michael Ford: No. The civil service had a kind of a spree, and it was just a complete change.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: It was a little disheartening, you know, in order to get anything done, you had to use a bribe. And I ran into that as soon as we got into the airport, you had to bribe people to go through customs, you know? Just it was amazing. So there are all kinds of contradictory things. I was pleased to see that many people are doing well. Some of the kids have gone on to school.

Robert Klein: Had you been involved with sponsoring or helping any Kenyans to come over?

Michael Ford: Not at that point. Since then.

Robert Klein: Okay. Up to '87, yeah. And on that trip back you had through the years been back to Kenya enough that you kept your Swahili?

Michael Ford: My Swahili was still quite good. I'd often taught it too, both at the college level and as a co-curricular thing.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay. I didn't know. We'll talk about that.

Michael Ford: Yeah.

Robert Klein: So, in going back to Ol Kalou, you're still, you're. You could converse in Swahili and?

Michael Ford: Pretty easily.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Okay, let's, let's zero back now to a little bit of a narrative. You went to Northwestern and working toward a degree in political science and African studies.

Michael Ford: Right.

Robert Klein: And, oh, sort of talk about your own continuing relationship with Kenya, where you served as a volunteer.

Michael Ford: Mm hmm. Um. While I was in Northwestern, the program of African studies, which was a renowned and fabulous program.

Robert Klein: Was Herskovits still alive?

Michael Ford: He wasn't still alive. But as you know he was the founder. Gwen Carter was running it then.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: And she was a force of nature too.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And there were all kinds of people in and out of the program as guest lecturers. And Gwen made it her business to invite the next generation of leaders to come and get to do. [inaudible] had been there. And I mean, everybody was there. A fair number of Kenyans were part of the program, some as graduate students, you know, some as guests. So through the program, I kept abreast of what was happening.

Towards the end of the program when I had to design a research project, I clearly designed it to take me back to Kenya. So in '69 to '70, I went back for a year, stayed on the coast, but even in '69 and '70, I'd make trips to Nairobi and once or twice to see people up country. So the time at Northwestern deepened my interest in certain academic knowledge on Africa.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: And just cemented what had been, not a lifelong, but damn near a lifelong fascination and connection to that world.

Robert Klein: So you were, you got to know a fair number of the political leaders?

Michael Ford: Right.

Robert Klein: Was that intentional or just the circle you moved in?

Michael Ford: Both.

Robert Klein: Okay. This is not a trick question. As you became thoroughly knowledgeable about Kenya, at any point were you ever approached by the CIA?

Michael Ford: Uh uh.

Robert Klein: Okay.

Michael Ford: No. Never, to my surprise.

Robert Klein: Or anyone from State?

Michael Ford: I was by State because they wanted me to enter. They had a kind of program, almost like AT&T's program, to identify reasonably young people, bring them in, train them, and set them on a career path.

Robert Klein: In the Foreign Service?

Michael Ford: Yes. And in fact.

Robert Klein: You were still a minority at that point.

Michael Ford: Yeah, yeah. I had a fairly serious interest in them and Mary and I talked about it.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: But the academic world is seductive, even if you're not incredibly happy at any point. There aren't many push factors pushing you out, you know.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: So I thought about the State Department really seriously, talked to people and, uh, but ultimately decided that I'd stay. You know, once I had kids, there should not have been a case, but I think I tended to think more of staying put.

Robert Klein: Right. And you ended up at Hampshire College.

Michael Ford: Uh huh.

Robert Klein: And both as dean and professor on and off through the years.

Michael Ford: Yes.

Robert Klein: And you continued to go back to Kenya on a fairly regular basis?

Michael Ford: Mm hmm.

Robert Klein: Did you consciously think, you took students on trips?

Michael Ford: Sometimes. Yes.

Robert Klein: Well, it was part of your mission then to broaden some Americans' understanding of Kenya?

Michael Ford: Absolutely.

Robert Klein: Because, you know, that's one of the third purposes, or the second purpose of the Peace Corps, that to. And you were very, you were in a very specific place where you could do that. I mean, far more than many other people.

Michael Ford: Right. I did it in two or three ways. One, there were occasions to take students, but I continued to teach about Africa with a special focus on Kenya.

Robert Klein: Mm hmm.

Michael Ford: I did sort of local presentations, and I remember doing them for the Lions Club, the World Affairs Council in Springfield. I've done that kind of thing a great many times. Um, at one point I thought of taking an adult group, but couldn't pull it off.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Adults are difficult.

Michael Ford: They are. And, you know, if you have an infrastructure, if there's an organization that handles that stuff, you can plug in as the leader, but doing it on your own.

Robert Klein: Right. Right.

Michael Ford: I thought it would be fun to do, but I didn't find a group that wanted to.

Robert Klein: Did any of your children ever express an interest in joining the Peace Corps?

Michael Ford: No, not really. Not Peace Corps.

Robert Klein: Okay. Okay.

Michael Ford: They were interested in going to Africa.

Robert Klein: And did any, have any of them going?

Michael Ford: Beth did.

Robert Klein: Your oldest daughter, your daughter?

Michael Ford: Yeah. Yeah.

Robert Klein: On her own or?

Michael Ford: She went with me.

Robert Klein: Oh, okay. To Kenya?

Michael Ford: To Kenya.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Had she studied Swahili prior to the trip?

Michael Ford: No.

Robert Klein: Okay. How old was she then?

Michael Ford: She was mid-twenties.

Robert Klein: Oh, so she was in college?

Michael Ford: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm trying to think exactly. Maybe 18, you know.

Robert Klein: Well, okay. Yeah. And it was just father daughter?

Michael Ford: Well, what happened. I have this colleague by the name of Frank who is also a Kenya specialist. And we would frequently go during the summers to study, to you know keep abreast of what's happening in Kenya. Contact old friends. And our routine was we usually go end of June because fares would pump and change July 1. We'd stay a month doing work and then we'd come home. So what I arranged, uh, that particular year. Also this friend wrote this book [inaudible].

Robert Klein: Yes.

Michael Ford: He had a real interest in seeing Africa. So I arranged that he and Beth would meet me toward the end of the study period. [phone rings, tape break]

Robert Klein: I had to ask if any of your children, and you indicated that you took Beth on one of your trips.

Michael Ford: Nate is quite interested in going.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: He actually has framed a video project, which, you know, it needs some funding, but he's interested in looking at the connections between the street gangs in Chicago and Cape Town, South Africa.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And there are real connections. I mean, he'd go to Kenya with me, too, but this interest is more in line with his work.

Robert Klein: Now, that's not Peace Corps?

Michael Ford: No. No.

Robert Klein: So you continue to, your involvement with Kenya and kept your Swahili up?

Michael Ford: Mm hmm.

Robert Klein: One of the interesting things you did, I think it's probably worth throwing on the tape, uh, when. I don't know if the system is still in place where the Congress had required elections in a country be monitored.

Michael Ford: Right. Right.

Robert Klein: Let's talk about that.

Michael Ford: I've uh, since the first multiparty election in Kenya, monitored nearly a dozen elections in East Africa. Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda. Zanzibar, which is part of Tanzania. But the elections are separate.

Robert Klein: And this is a State Department program?

Michael Ford: It's, actually it's encouraged by State and the funding initially was through AID. Now it's more private. The same institutions are involved. There were four or five. There was the International Republican Institute, the National Democratic Institute, the Africa-American Institute, the National Foundation for Electoral Systems, and the Carter Center.

Robert Klein: And their interest is what?

Michael Ford: They each have a strong international focus. And some of them specifically are focused on Africa, like the Africa-American Institute. But others have Africa as one of the areas that are of major interest. And in each case, one of the things that really is at the center of their interest is notions of governance. And they all have governance programs of one kind or another. And elections clearly are part of the sort of structure of governance and in Africa, really beginning in the early '90s, finally having succession, you know, sort of independence leaders were passing on.

And the question becomes, you know, how is that succession going to be organized? And in many cases, it's not through a democratic process. But the election observation is designed together with probably the U.N. and other places to foster that kind of peaceful and democratic succession process. So I've done election monitoring in presidential elections, parliamentary, local government. The most recent which was Zanzibar in 2005.

Robert Klein: And you were, you were picked because you are knowledgeable about East Africa?

Michael Ford: Yes. Yes. And probably knowing Swahili doesn't hurt, although many other people don't and they're are also selected. But just knowing about Kenya.

Robert Klein: Has it led you into any embarrassing exchanges where people don't know you know Swahili?

Michael Ford: Yes. Although it wasn't embarrassing for me. No. On a number of occasions. And, you know, sometimes, I must confess, sometimes I've used that, you know. I was at the coast in Kenya monitoring Mombasa election places, and guys at the site were openly discussing the fact that they were going to bribe people. And I was standing around looking like a goofy American, like all the others, you know. And I knew exactly what they were saying.

And in fact, I was on BBC because they interviewed me. I turned in a report, which you're supposed to, not supposed to interfere but you can observe and go to court. And I reported this one guy who was openly bribing people. He would give them the party symbol that he wanted them to vote for, and they had to go in and do that. And then when they came back out, I've forgotten how they demonstrated that they've done it but, and he paid them. And I heard him doing it. I saw him doing it in the line.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And I reported it, you know. And BBC did a sort of cute tongue in cheek thing where Ford K was one of the parties, and there were two Ford parties. And at the end of it, the reporter said, your name is Michael Ford. And I said yes. And he said, is that Ford K or Ford A?

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: But, yeah, there have been a couple of occasions where people didn't know I spoke Swahili and assumed, oh, American. I made it useful.

Robert Klein: One last question that now in 2008, it's an issue that's boiled up some and there is the possibility that Peace Corps may expand under a new government. Some people question, you know, what's the value of Peace Corps? And not thinking in 1960s terms when our perceptions may have been different, but what's your feeling now? I mean, what is?

Michael Ford: I think it's even more valuable to citizens of this country to have an organization like Peace Corps. You know, over the years, because of, I think, stupid, shortsighted, mal-intentioned foreign policy, it's just really true that a hell of a lot of people don't think a lot of this country.

Robert Klein: Yes.

Michael Ford: And I think, in my experience, good, sincere, thoughtful Peace Corps people can and have made a difference even in a context where there is suspicion about the country.

Robert Klein: Right. Right. Right.

Michael Ford: I don't think there's been a period in my life when we've been less well-regarded, even when there was talk about the Ugly Americans.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: And I think a rejuvenated, expanded Peace Corps could make a significant difference.

Robert Klein: Do you think it would be possible to create a genuine international Peace Corps that was not American dominated?

Michael Ford: I think you could certainly make a start. I mean, I remember when I was in Kenya, Cuso, the Canadian volunteers.

Robert Klein: Canadian, yeah.

Michael Ford: And there were English volunteers, and occasionally we'd get together and talk and, uh, had many of the same values. I don't mean that those are the only ones. They're just examples I think of institutions that had the same mission. And we could talk and we could agree and we'd learn from each other. So, yeah, I think it's possible. What would be really fun is if there were non-Western groups like India that became a part of it.

Robert Klein: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Ford: Yeah, I think that the possibilities are significant. I really do. And I'll say, unless you have a last question in closing.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: I came to retirement and, you know, I've been trying to figure out what's next. I actually decided to apply to be a country director.

Robert Klein: Oh.

Michael Ford: They've put the applications on hold.

Robert Klein: Of course.

Michael Ford: They tell me that they'll probably reopen them in the spring.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: But, you know, the good Lord willing and the creek don't mind, if my health will allow, I intend to apply and I really would want to do it in Africa.

Robert Klein: But anywhere you can make it, if you don't, you know, they have to accommodate to you.

Michael Ford: Yeah. So I would, you know, I'm not interested in a bureaucratic position in D.C.

Robert Klein: Right.

Michael Ford: I wouldn't want to be the regional director for act, but a country director would be.

Robert Klein: Yeah. Well, that's consistent with your experience through the years.

Michael Ford: And, you know, if it's possible, that's precisely what I would do. Mary's at the point where she's retired. The kids are grown.

Robert Klein: Yeah.

Michael Ford: And I'd love to do it. I think I have the energy and the vision and commitment so.