Interviewer(s): Sharon Thibodeau
Interviewee(s): Mike McReynolds

Sharon Thibodeau: State your name and length ofservice at the National Archives.

Mike McReynolds: I'm Mike McReynolds and I worked for 32 years at the National Archives.

Sharon Thibodeau: Wow! Good to be reminded. I guess my first question for you is how you.decided to apply for a job at the National Archives

Mike McReynolds: I was an instructor at the SUNY College at Fredonia, New York and teaching Western Civ and U.S. History. I had an MA from the University ofChicago and knew that I wouldn't be able to stay at Fredonia.

Sharon Thibodeau: It was a temporary ...

Mike McReynolds: Yes, I had a two year contract. I could have had a second two year contract, but I knew that I had to do something else. The National Archives was recruiting at the Organization ofAmerican Historians in Philadelphia. So I talked with them about a career at the National Archives, and that's how I goi to the National Archives.

Sharon Thibodeau: So you didn't really prepare for an archival career; you were preparing to be an historian.

Mike McReynolds: Yes, though I had thought about being a librarian or archivist throughout my ... that was always in the background ofmy thoughts.

Sharon Thibodeau: Did you take any library science classes?

Mike McReynolds: No, but I had applied to the University ofToronto and Columbia University Library Schools, before I got the job at the National Archives.

Sharon Thibodeau: So you wer~n•t a complete stranger to it?

Mike McReynolds: That's right.

Sharon Thibodeau: When you got the job, did it meet your expectations? Did you have a vision ofwhat it would be like working at the National Archives?

Mike McReynolds: I was very fortunate in that my first position was in the judicial records section which had been my interest while I was in graduate school. I was primarily a reference archivist the first five years, and that is what I thought I would be doing.

Sharon Thibodeau: Working with researchers?

Mike McReynolds: Right, working with researchers and with records.

Sharon Thibodeau: Did you get training on the job when you first arrived? How did that work?

Mike McReynolds: There were two other people that worked in the judicial section at that time. One was Don Mosholder who was an archives technician and Marion Johnson was the archivist. Marion spent almost all of his time with the Warren Commission Records. Most ofthe on job tutoring that I got came from Don Mosholder.

Sharon Thibodeau: They didn't have formal training?

Mike McReynolds: Oh yes, they did have a very extensive training course.

Sharon Thibodeau: Which you participated in?

Mike McReynolds: Yes, Mabel Deutrich and Frank Evans were the instructors.

Sharon Thibodeau: How did the class operate when you were there? Once a week or ...

Mike McReynolds: It was twice a week. It went on for two years. We had exams. Mabel taught for the second and third semester's administrative history ofthe United States. That was considered by the trainees to be horribly boring, but it turned out to be very useful for our careers.

Sharon Thibodeau: You didn't appreciate it at the time?

Mike McReynolds: We did not.

Sharon Thibodeau: Who else was involved in the training, was it really primarily Mabel and Frank? No others?

Mike McReynolds: We had a two person Office ofPersonnel at the time. Most ofthe personnel work was being done at GSA, and so the director ofthat office actually directed the assignments. What we now call CIDS assignments.

Sharon Thibodeau: So you did go on rotations?

Mike McReynolds: Very thorough.

Sharon Thibodeau: Sounds that way, much more so than happened in the interim. Well actually I would like to hear a little bit more generally about your career. You started out in the judicial unit.

Mike McReynolds: Yes

Sharon Thibodeau: Then where did you go from there?

Mike McReynolds: I was working as a reference archivist in judicial and didn't have any thoughts ofmoving around at the time. That looked like what I wanted to do. The National Archives ofthe United States was hosting the 1976 !CA (International Congress Archives) and they needed someone to prepare for it. This was 1974. Al Leisinger, who had been a mentor of Bert Rhoads (who was the Archivist at the time) suggested me to Bert Rhodes and Jim O'Neill who was Deputy Archivist, and I interviewed with them. I had no idea that I would be moving to their front office so quickly as a grade eleven archivist.

Sharon Thibodeau: It must have been stunning.

Mike McReynolds: I didn't know what !CA meant, so after the interview was over with, I went up to the library and asked the librarian ifshe knew what ICA w'as. I spent five years there, prim"!'ily preparing for the Congress. I also did quite a bit ofspeech writing. At times that was about half my work. Then the National Archives got involved in a joint publication with the Soviet Union archives on the documents for the relations between the two countries from 1765 to 1815. I was the administrative officer for that publication. So that was the big change in my career. It was just a real shift in everything that I was doing. It also gave me an idea ofwhat the National Archives was; much broader. Being a reference archivist in those days, in Archives I, your desk was in the stacks, your reference letters were signed by the division director. Congressional letters were signed by the Archivist. It was very bureaucratic and much closed in, physically as well as bureaucratically. So the move to the front office really opened my eyes to a Jot of things going on at the National Archives that I had no idea had happened.

Sharon Thibodeau: Why do you think Al picked you?

Mike McReynolds: I was young and he thought I could do the job

Sharon Thibodeau: Really? Your phone just rang one day?

Mike McReynolds: He and I knew each other. I don't know how that happened. He was the special assistant to the Archivist at the time. There were several older gentlemen who had kind ofout lived their careers at the Archives. I met him and talked with him, and we kind ofjust knew each other.

Sharon Thibodeau: I guess it paid off?

Mike McReynolds: Yes.

Sharon Thibodeau: So you moved from there to other jobs?

Mike McReynolds: Yes, after five years, there. was very little work, because of GSA and what was going on in the Soviet Union. There was little international activity within the front office, and that whole program of died down. Clarence Lyons needed an assistant branch chief and asked if! would be willing to join his branch. Which is what I did, and that was my first real supervisory effort. Then five years after that the National Archives was forced to reestablish a Legislative Division. I was selected for that new division and spent five years there. Then there was the reorganization that took place with the preparation for the move to Archives II. The project and reference divisions were established, and I was made director ofthe Reference Division. I was doing for more than nine years at Archives I, Archives II, and Suitland.

Sharon Thibodeau: Some interesting aspects ofthat job I know.

Mike McReynolds: Then I ended my career as Deputy Director ofthe Legislative Center.

Sharon Thibodeau: I would you like to really follow up on a.couple ofthings that you have mentioned. One is the International aspect of; you were involved in these international activities earlier on in your career. But I think you also got involved toward the end of your career with international activities once again. Were you involved with international activities throughout or were there ... ?

Mike McReynolds: Th.ere were times that I was not involved, but I did become known as the person who could deal with Russian Archivists. So through the eighties I would be asked to sit in on meetings with a group ofRussian archivists or archivists from Eastern Europe. In 1992, I was asked to join with the Library of Congress and the DIA to go over to Russia and try to establish microfilm programs in the various archives in the new Russia. In '95 I became the archives representative on the US-Russia POW-MIA Commission. All ofthat was very interesting; I also was chair of the International Committee for the Society of American Archivists offand on throughout my career. I kept involved in that way too.

Sharon Thibodeau: Did you notice a difference in the Russian archival world between your time when you were involved in the joint project early on and the time you were doing POW-MIA work?

Mike McReynolds: Well certainly between the late ?O's and early S0's and then 1992 was very different. In '92 they were talking about opening up the archives. They were trying to come to the level offreedom of information that the United States had. But that turned very quickly, so by the time I was on the U.S.­ Russia POW-MIA Commission it was very difficult to get into the Russian military archives and the archives that would have been useful for the US side.

Sharon Thibodeau: It was' a changeable situation, Did we have any way of influencing that at all?

Mike McReynolds: We tried very hard and it was almost a total failure. Nationalism took over in the middle and late 90's in Russia, and nothing was going to stop that as far as access to Russian archives.

Sharon Thibodeau: That whole archival road has been such a mystery to me. It was good that you were able to experience it. I would like to hear you talk a little bit about challenges that you faced in your career. Some things that were really difficult.

Mike McReynolds: Certainly the getting into the front office and dealing with things that I had never done before. I had never drawn up a budget. I ended up getting grants ofabout two hundred and fifty thousand dollars for the ICA Congress. I had never written a grant proposal before. I had never dealt with caterers. I had never dealt with translators, never dealt with bus companies.

Sharon Thibodeau: Did you have any help? Or was it really you and the ICA?

Mike McReynolds: It was primarily me. In those five years, I had five different special assist~nts to the archivist as my supervisors. In halfthat time I had no direct supervisor at all. They just kept coming in and out. Morris Rieger and Al Leisinger had both been involved with the !CA quite a bit and so I used them alot as sources of information. We went to lunch every week for three years.

Sharon Thibodeau: So they were mentors?

Mike McReynolds: Yes.

Sharon Thibodeau: I would have no idea. I can appreciate that we have different agencies.

Mike McReynolds: The next big challenge was learning to be a supervisor.

Sharon Thibodeau: Well, that's what I wanted to hear you talk about a little bit. You didn't really apply for this. I mean Clarence sort ofselected you. Did you have some difficulty making the decision?

Mike McReynolds: No, I knew that was exactly what I wanted to do, because the work load in the front office just died. I didn't know this, but I went to talk to Bert Rhoads about my possible assignments. But I went in there at the time, and he thought that was a good idea. Three days later he resigned, and just stunned everybody at the National Archives.

Sharon Thibodeau: Did you have any insight into that decision?

Mike McReynolds: None at all. When Jim O' Neill heard that I was leaving, he was very upset and tried to talk me into staying. He was going to be Acting Archivist.

Sharon Thibodeau: A challenge all on its own, but you decided it was time?

Mike McReynolds: .It was time that I get back to the records and the people. I had supervised a staff, a volunteer staff and three people in the front office to work as translators. We translated all of the papers ofthe Congress into five languages. I had some experience with those people. My first division director, Mark Eikhoff, then Clarence Lyons as branch chief. They were mentors for me also as I became a supervisor.

Sharon Thibodeau: Was there formal training, did you take any classroom training.

Mike McReynolds: I probably did take a class, some kind ofclassroom training, but it was worthless. It was awful.

Sharon Thibodeau: Well, ifit was the same one I took, it was a GSA, about a week and it wasn't memorable.

Mike McReynolds: Clarence was very good about teaching me how to get the paper work done. How to protect the staff, so they could get their work done.

Sharon Thibodeau: He saw his role as mentor?

Mike McReynolds: Right. We had a great staff and it was fun.

Sharon Thibodeau: Once you had some experience and some advice, you felt more comfortable.

Mike McReynolds: Starting up the legislative division was also a new experience for me. I never dealt with anyone on the Hill. Two historians there in the House and Senate informally supervised the Legislative Archives Division also. Dick Baker, Ray Smock and I talked on a weekly basis. It was helpful, yes, but we could also come back to the National Archives and say the Senate wants this or the House wants that.

Sharon Thibodeau: I am sure it's still happening.

Mike McReynolds: I am sure it is. The National Archives for the most part was looked upon as a very friendly agency on the hill. We weren't asking for billions ofdollars. We weren't doing bad things with what we spent. We were looked upon as a good agency, so it was fairly easy to get involved in the politics ofit all.

Sharon Thibodeau: How did the guide project originate?

Mike McReynolds: It started before I took over.

Sharon Thibodeau: Oh it did?

Mike McReynolds: Yes. There had been a planning between Smock, Baker and the National Archives for the Bi-Centennial of Congress. There were three projects that were going to be done. One was the guides, one was a preservation projects of Senate and House documents, and then a microfilming project ofthe early Congresses. All ofthose projects had come along when legislative records were part ofthe Diplomatic, Legislative_ and Fiscal Division. So when I took over those projects for the division many people did deadlines and all of this business. It was a major undertaking. Trudy Peterson, who was head of the Office in the National Archives was very supportive. We had a lot oftrainees come through and spend two or months working on various chapters. Virginia Purdy and Bob Kvasnicka were editors for us. Bob figured out a way of dealing with the changes ofcommittee names and functions, which is just constant. Trying to write a descriptive guide on those committees was impossible. So finally he came up with line charts which illustrated the changes ofcommittees, years and names of committees. He saved hundreds of paragraphs.

Sharon Thibodeau: I am not sure ifBob has got sufficient credit.

Mike McReynolds: He saved us.

Sharon Thibodeau: That worked, got over that hurtle.

Mike McReynolds: We met our publication date. We worked with GPO. They got three hand made copies done by the date.

Sharon Thibodeau: Well, what about the microfilming and preservation, did they also go forward?

Mike McReynolds: They went forward, yes. My deputy was David Kepley and we did have three people who were doing preservation work, reboxing, refoldering records. No one had kept track of their work. We had been given two hundred and fifty thousand dollars by Congress to do this. We had no idea if we had spent the money or not. So David dove into the records and straightened that problem out. Then the microfilming went forward too.

Sharon Thibodeau: That was Legislative. Any other challenges?

Mike McReynolds: Well umm the next big challenge I think was when I was head ofthe Reference Division and made the spokesman for the National Archives after the film "JFK" was released.

Sharon Thibodeau: Tell us about that.

Mike McReynolds: In my career in Judicial and elsewhere I had avoided the Warren Commission records and the Kennedy assassination. Marion Johnson took care ofthat, and I was happy to have him do it. The Archivist Don Wilson and Trudy Peterson decided that I would be the front person for responding for the National Archives. The film ends with a statement that hundreds ofcubic feet ofJFK assassination records were still closed. In fact almost all the records were open, so we had to respond to that. I worked with Jill Brett who was the press officer at the time. She was very good. I had worked with the press during the International Congress and with the Russian business a number oftimes. Never like this kind ofavalanche ofpeople that came in. I remember being interviewed by ... she was the first woman on channel 5 news. At my desk, trying to answer the questions and doing as well as I could. It went on for a number ofweeks and I was interviewed by the Post, Newsweek. In many newspapers and then the Today Show wanted me on television. Jill called me and said what was going on and I said, "Well I don't want to do that." She said "I will get you out of it over lunch." I was walking back into the building from lunch and I ran into her and she said, "You're on tomorrow morning." So I was interviewed by Bryant Gumbel in the research room before the research room was open that morning. It was about five minutes. Again it was primarily about access to the records and I said 99% ofthe records are open. Autopsy photos and CIA documents were still closed. He asked at the end ofthe whole thing if I had seen the movie and I said, "no." He said are you planning to see the movie and I said, "no." And he laughed and I laughed and that was the end ofthe interview. That seemed to quiet the press down I think. After that things calmed down. I

Sharon Thibodeau: It's a good thing; you just never know how the press interactions will turnout.

Mike McReynolds: I remember getting up one morning and getting the Washington Post and turning to the federal page, and there was my picture. And I thought my God, now what have I got myself into.

Sharon Thibodeau: That was in the midst ofthis.

Mike McReynolds: Yes, my fifteen minutes of fame.

Sharon Thibodeau: So it was hard to top that experience

Mike McReynolds: Well our FBI experience comes close to that. I had actually worked with the GSA lawyer, Steve Garfmkel. I had worked with him on Watergate records before Judge Green actually forced the National Archives and the FBI to do a full appraisal ofFBI records (1980-81).

So !knew what the whole background ofthe appraisal problem was, but it was a fascinating experience. I don't know ifyou agree with me or not but one ofthe things I thought about the schedule we came out with. Fifteen people trying to get a job done. Having very good ideas of what they thought should be done. The schedule was much too complicated. We tried to cut the cheese so thinly, so that it made it difficult for the FBI to implement. I have heard that the FBI has been sending more records here in recent years, which were certainly not the case for many years after that, 1982.

Sharon Thibodeau: What has precipitated the avalanche of FBI materials is they have to relocate from a building in Virginia to West Virginia, and they don't want to move the files. It's the same old story ..

Mike McReynolds: It was an interesting clash of archival thoughts and ideas as to what should be kept and what shouldn't. What was the role ofthe FBI in the history ofthe United States? The fact that Charles Dollar, deputy project director, came in'after our first or second day ofvoting on appraisal decisions saying "this - would be not only an archival document but also a court document and a political document. Folks we have got to think about that."

Sharon Thibodeau: Some interestipg conversations.

Mike McReynolds: So I have been fortunate to have-these kinds of activities like that throughout my career.

Sharon Thibodeau: I would be interested to know what you would describe as your best experience ofall the things you have done and been involved with, really the best thing.

Mike McReynolds: Well I always loved reference. So being head ofthe Reference Division gave me an opportunity to let the reference staffdo their work. I was always involved with the Freedom ofInformation Act. So that was a pivotal part ofmy work in reference. The work that we did on Watergate, especially with the Watergate Special Prosecution Force. I worked with Steve Tilley. We had fascinating resear.chers and that was fun. The FBI task force was fun too. I was fortunate, I really was.

Sharon Thibodeau: It sounds like that was the case. Would you say anything ab_out ' your worse experience? Was there a worst experience?

Mike McReynolds: The last few years were my worst experience. I had seen so many people leave the Archives very bitter. I was put in the situation where I could have been very bitter, and I determined that I wasn't going to be. So I got involved with the POW- MIA commission. Then I was also made the point person for Legislative electronic records. I geared up to keep in touch with all the stuffthat was going on with the Hill with electronic records, so that made the experience easier and better. But it wasn't easy the last three years.

Sharon Thibodeau: I can appreciate that. It's a major change. Well you made some clear moves as time went by and what precipitated those moves? Was it because an opportunity came up, and you decided to do something different or someone invited you to do something different?

Mike McReynolds: It was different through different changes. The movement up to the front office in international archival activities was just out ofthe blue. The move into Clarence Lyons.Branch was something that I wanted and would have campaigned for. Same way with Legislative, I was interested in doing something like that and same with Reference. They were things that I wanted to do.

Sharon Thibodeau: I can't remember. .. were those jobs posted?

Mike McReynolds: Yes.

Sharon Thibodeau: Yes, so it's good you had the opportunity to make the decision yourself.

Mike McReynolds: I did taik to Trudy Peterson over the Legislative job and the Reference job before they were posted. I just indicated my interest in them.

Sharon Thibodeau: Did you work with other federal agencies to any great extent while you were here?

Mike McReynolds: Not very much. I knew the records manager at the Department ofJustice and then during the FBI task force, ofcourse we got to know the FBI very well. I knew ihe Clerk's staff at the Supreme Court an~ I worked with them. I worked with various staffs on the Hill when I was in Legislative. I didn't have a wide contact ofrecords officers or anything like that.

Sharon Thibodeau: We would like to talk a little bit more about researchers. Were there any that stick in your mind as being particular fascinating?

Mike McReynolds: Yes ofcourse a lot ofthem were fascinating and I got to know many ofthem as friends. I worked with Allen Weinstein on his Alger Hiss book. I got to work with tow ofmy favorite professors, Sidney Fine and John Hope Franklin. I worked with Stan Kutler on Watergate and Randy Roberts on "Bad Blood" and Jack Johnson. Kermit Hall and Mary K. Bonsteal Tachau were legal historians who became good friends. And others in the Washington area such as Pete Daniel, Same Walker, Anna Nelson, - and Maeda Marcus. I was a member ofthe American Society for Legal History and a number ofthose people were researchers. It was same with the Society offor History of the Federal Government and the Organization of American Historians.

Sharon Thibodeau: So you were active in those professional organizations?

Mike McReynolds: It was always easier if you knew these people through the professional organizations when things went wrong at the Nationa!'Archives. You could try to straighten it out. That happened a lot. I became the spokesman for the FBI task force at the American Legal History Society and OAH.

Sharon Thibodeau: How was that experience?

Mike McReynolds: Fairly hostile. They wanted the red meat ofJ. Edgar Hoover documents and that sort ofthing for whatever reason. We never really found any smoking guns in the records when we went through them.

Sharon Thibodeau: It may or may not have been saved for whatever reason. You just don't know.

Mike McReynolds: Right, when I said that, they were not happy with me. It was dealing with researchers and something I dealt with all my life.

Sharon Thibodeau: Was there ever one that was really a problem?

Mike McReynolds: We had several real problems.

Sharon Thibodeau: What was the nature ofthe problem?

Mike McReynolds: Who was the researcher? He was German? He dealt with getting stolen art cases.

Sharon Thibodeau: I know who you are taking about but I can't think of his name [Willi Korte].

Mike McReynolds: He caused enough problems in the research room that we had to take his card away from him. That meant his livelihood was gone. We had a whole list of things that he had done. We had warned him that he would get his researcher privileges revoked. And eventually we took his research card away from him for six months.

Sharon Thibodeau: Did that make a different in his behavior?

Mike McReynolds: Yes it did. When he came back, he was a lot more pleasant. He was still a difficult researcher, but he was better. We took research cards from... I guess six people during the nine years that I was in Reference.

Sharon Thibodeau: It's still happening

Mike McReynolds: I was involved with one theft incident.

Sharon Thibodeau: That would be something to talk a little about.

Mike McReynolds: The point person in that case was Mike Musick. It was Civil War stuff.

Sharon Thibodeau: It was discovered somehow ...

Mike McReynolds: Yes, it was discovered, I think Mike is the one who discovered it. Documents were put on the market. The man went to jail eventually.

Sharon Thibodeau: Something that is happening again fairly recently.

Mike McReynolds: Something you always have to worry about as an archivist.

Sharon Thibodeau: And it's very hard to detect. It's interesting how it was detected. Can you talk about your relationship with the archival profession in general? You talked a little about the international archivists but were you involved in the Society ofAmerican Archivists?

Mike McReynolds: Yes, I was involved from the beginning. I was one of those people who thought belonging to a national organization was a part of your job or your life as an archivist. I had gone to the AHA and the OAH as an historian/teacher. I hired on in September 1969 and the SAA was in October. It was in Washington so I went up. I always found it very beneficial to get to know other archivists and get outside the National Archives. Get some perspective on what the profession was like. Later I got involved in giving papers up in Canada. The Association of Canadian Archivists is really a great organization. It's much smaller than the SAA. A lot.more fun.

Sharon Thibodeau: They really talk to one another.

Mike McReynolds: I was involved in the founding ofthe Mid-Atlantic Regional Archives Conference. I stopped going to that after a number ofyears but I was still asked to give papers and I did. It was the same kind of thing as going to the historical associations; getting to know people.

Sharon Thibodeau: light, that's really what it's all about. I guess maybe I have another question; maybe you want to think about it a little bit. Ifyou were providing advice to a newly hired archivist today, one ofthe one's we hired a year ago, what would that advice be?

Mike McReynolds: Learn as much about electronic records as you can.

Sharon Thibodeau: That was certainly a plus.

Mike McReynolds: I mean when I was being hired there were people who came to the National Archives with PhDs in history. I only had a MA. I didn't think that was a problem, but certainly the leadership in the National Archives was looking for people who had a very solid background in American history. Over the years, I don't know when it changed, maybe 1990. We desperately needed people who could handle electronic records. I remember we hired a trainee, Kate Snodgrass, in 1997. She had some background in electronic records. The Legislative C.enter had all kinds of, not junk but electronic records that had no provenance or much documentation'. We didn't know what to do with them. I asked her in her CIDS paper to put that stuff together and she did a wonderful job. She did it without even doubting that she could do it.

Sharon Thibodeau: That seems like good advice. I think I have asked most ofthe questions that are on the Assembly's list. Is there a topic that we haven't discussed that you would like to talk more about?

Mike McReynolds: This is kind ofoutside the National Archives, but I had a group offriends here who played, basketball together. Later we played softball together that started exactly thirty years ago.

Sharon Thibodeau: Just identity the people who were part ofthat group.

Mike McReynolds: There was Gerry Haines, Doug Helms, John Butler, Tim Nenninger, John Vernon, Bill Grover, Clarence Lyons, Roger Bruns, George Briscoe, and others.

Sharon Thibodeau: How did the group get started?

Mike McReynolds: It was just conversation at the snack bar I think. "Well why don't we get together and play." That was in 1976. We got a gym where we could play basketball, and then we decided we would play softball also. We got into the DC federal league, and the Arlington league. This group was all archivists, and we had all been jocks at one time or another. It was one great evening for us. Eventually we started going to a bar after the games.

Sharon Thibodeau: What bar.

Mike McReynolds: Key Hole Inn in Arlington. It no longer exists but there is still a group that meets on Wednesday evenings. The athletic activity and all the banter and laughter made the next day at the Archives a lot easier.

Sharon Thibodeau: I know I can imagine. Did you talk about business?

Mike McReynolds: Oh yes, much too much.

Sharon Thibodeau: I think it does help to have a different perspective on your colleagues. I don't know ifthat is happening today; that people are socializing outside the office.

Mike McReynolds: I have had similar conversations about our generation ofarchivists. We were organizers and we just org'!Ilized a softball and basketball teams. We organized the Assembly.

Sharon Thibodeau: Weren't you involved with ...?

Mike McReynolds: Yes, yes

Sharon Thibodeau: Do you want to talk a little about the Assembly?

Mike McReynolds: Yes, in 1979 the Administrator of General Services wanted to send records on various subjects to various cities and set up regional archives. It got to that far: There had been a long effort to get the National Archives independent ofGSA. It got such that there was a committee ofemployees in 1980. January 1980 to oppose the regionalization of records. In January 1980 John Rurnbarger, Virginia Purdy, Gerry Haines, myself, and others decided to put a staff organization together that would pursue independence for the National Archives. And fight offthis idea sending records all over the country. That is how we got started.

Sharon Thibodeau: How did it actually happen?

Mike McReynolds: The founding committee issued a statement and asked staffmembers to meet for an organizational meeting. We met in the old auditorium ofArchives I on a Saturday morning. There were about 85 people and television cameras. It was agreed to establish the Assembly. Virginia Purdy was elected President, and quarterly meetings and a newsletter were started. Two years later I was president.

Sharon Thibodeau: You testified before Congress as President?

Mike McReynolds: Yes, I testified before the House Subcommittee ofGovernment Operations. It was looking at the National Archives and GSA. That was a part of the general movement that led to the independence in 1985.

Sharon Thibodeau: Did you have to have your remarks approved by someone before you could present.

Mike McReynolds: I don't know if you knew this, but you were on the Executive Board at the time. I did a draft and then the Board did a great review. I thought we really had a very good statement. Clarence Lyons was my supervisor at the time and I told him I was going to do this. I was going to take time off. The Archivist at the time was Bob Warner and I thought he would ask. to read through my remarks, or ask to say something to me or have some representative say something to me, but I never talked to them at all. I was not on the panel that he was on. There were two other organizations that were testifying at the time. I didn't get any reaction from the front office before or afterwards.

Sharon Thibodeau: That's wonderful really; it really could have been otherwise.

Mike McReynolds: They had their own agenda and the Assembly was not part ofthat agenda: The Society of American Archivists got very much involved in that whole period also, and we were very happy to see the Assembly being represented.

Sharon Thibodeau: It was a good moment. It was a good experience. I remember being worried at the tiine. I was in the same position being in line for the presidency and wondering if! would have to testify at some point and being relieved it never happened. I'm impressed.

Mike McReynolds: We had a good statement and the two Congressmen were happy to hear from us.

Sharon Thibodeau: Well the Assembly is thriving. It was definitely on ofthe things that started.

Mike McReynolds: Well good.

Sharon Thibodeau: Well how many survivors ofthe Key Hole Inn are there now? I guess some folks have moved away?

Mike McReynolds: John Butler is in California and Clarence Lyons is in Georgia. Doug Helms and I are still going on Wednesday night. We have added some younger people. It will go on.

Sharon Thibodeau: Well anything else you would like to ....

Mike McReynolds: I can't think of anything else.

Sharon Thibodeau: I am trying to think ifthere is something that we haven't talked about or any comments in particular about the records you worked with.

Mike McReynolds: I loved them; I was absolutely fascinated by the Supreme Court and the Department of Justice records. When I took over Legislative, I had never worked in legislative archives. That was really fun to deal with. I enjoyed the arguments over freedom of information and those questions and issues. I did several papers on those questions, so that was always a fun part ofmy work that was right along with the records.

Sharon Thibodeau: Were you making appraisal decisions at points in your career?

Mike McReynolds: As division director in Reference and Legislative, I got to see appraisal decisions. I didn't object to very many ofthem. Trudy Peterson thought that I should get more involved, but I didn't. Appraisal was always very important. Given the FBI experience you always had that mind set in your head about what had to be done.

Sharon Thibodeau: Any memories ofthe FBI project that is particularly memorable? Let me ask first, were you the one who drew up the list ofphrases, my treasured possession? [Yes]! have to say that's wonderful.

Mike McReynolds: I think.the camaraderie and the fun that we had, was just wonderful. We were dealing with very important questions under court order knowing that things were not going well for the Archives and.the FBI. We were fortunate to have the records manager at the FBI. His name was Bob Scherrer. If he hadn't been there, I don't think that project would have succeeded. He did a wonderful job. Jim O'Neill did a wonderful job ofsupervising fifteen very independent archivists.

Sharon Thibodeau: I remember our trip to Puerto Rico, and our trip going the wrong way down the one way street. We weren't arrested and that was good.

Mike McReynolds: Yes, we had a good time.

Sharon Thibodeau: Well any last thoughts? I think we maybe ready to close.