Semi-structured interview transcript with Interviewee #1 (Industry: Finance)
Interviewer(s): Interviewer
Interviewee(s): Interviewee A

Interviewer: Hi (participating change leader), thanks again for finding the time and energy to participate in our followup research on change leadership in your organization. This time you get to tell your side of the story, and complement your change recipients’ reported perceptions. Just as last time, all GDPR actions still apply, and this interview is being recorded. The only purpose for this meeting being recorded is the transcript which is required for the qualitative analysis, however neither the video nor the audio of this meeting will ever be publicly displayed, nor will your identity or the identity of your organization be disclosed. If you do not agree to this, please let me know and we will stop the recording and our interview. Other than that, today’s protocol is fairly simple. First, we will go through a round of so-called “quick- draw” questions, which is designed as a warm up exercise. I give you a quick question, and then you answer with one or two words max. After we complete this round, we move onto the actual stories, where I will ask you to recollect a certain incident, and to retell it to us in as much detail as you deem appropriate. I may ask you a followup question, but the general idea is to give you enough space to tell us a story without being interrupted. We are not interested in names, and in case some of these names find their way into our transcript, I’m going to redact them and use a generic term to replace them. If you agree with the aforementioned, let’s get started. Before we move to anecdotes, let's talk more about some general information. For example, the industry part, which was obviously finance, right? (Yeah) The type of project was the merger and acquisition, right? (Correct.). A previous change leadership experience on your side, in years.

Interviewee A: So I would say… since 2015, then when I had my first, let's say, leadership role in (the company), as head of risk management,

Interviewer: okay, I'm guessing this will be the tenure within the organization as well. So we can count it from 2015. Right?

Interviewee A: Yes. Yes. At the Company, I was since 2014. But since 2015, then or actually (paused for recollection) it was 2016. May 2016. Yeah, May 2016. Yep.

Interviewer: Yep. We'll adjust that. It's no problem. Team members that were included in the quantitative study was 6, if I remember correctly, correct. Yeah. And what would you say was the biggest challenge during implementation?

Interviewee A: Yeah, it was definitely keeping the colleagues motivated, keeping them going. So to say, after we announced that this change is coming, that they would not drop either drop there, you know, things and not show any dedication to work anymore, or leave the organization completely. So this was something that was a big worry for the Company, but also for me personally. And then on the other side. It was also, you know, how you (uhmm) how this project (of change) will impact them personally. So how can we ensure that they will not (uhm...) That the we will have the outcome that will, to the least extent affect them negatively, personally. So that was, at least from my perspective, the biggest challenge.

Interviewer: that's great. Then, if we could kind of observe your organizational change project as a story. What would you say were the key elements and I'm gonna do a quick round of question, you just do a quick answer. So it's like, who was the protagonist

Interviewee A: so in this case, does it need to be a person?

Interviewer: It doesn't have to, it's up to you, you know, maybe your protagonist was a team, maybe it was the organization, maybe it was some individual.

Interviewee A: Yeah, the protagonist that I would see here was the Company, (or more precisely) private, individual business in Country. And because this is the organization that was going through this major change, and I was, as a general manager responsible are at least held responsible, definitely for the whole organization. So that's, that's (uhhm) why I would say that the protagonist here was the whole organization, not only this core team.

Interviewer: who would you say, was the antagonist? So like, the bad guy of the story?

Interviewee A: The bad guy of the story, would then be (uhm…) you know, the pressure from the owners of the Company and automate this change, we would need to sell the business or run the business off. Because we were not significant enough on a global level, and the Company decided to focus only on the core markets. So the antagonist in this sense, would be the expected... (uhm…) expectation or the owners and their expectations. I found it in this story, that that was the antagonist, they were trying to impose this change on their organization that nobody wanted to see. But it was coming from… from the owners. It was not the management itself. So nothing, not only the Organization's management in the head office, because they were also only doing what the owners, more specifically the shareholders wanted to see.

Interviewer: And what would you say was the inciting moment that triggered this change?

Interviewee A: It's a combination of both (internal and external). But in the end, I would say it was the decision of the owners, because the markets in the market developments, I would say... We could still adjust our business to, you know, so, and in the end of the day, I'm still convinced that if somebody would look back into the decision, that this was not the best option for the organization that, in my view, they could have been done differently.

Interviewer: What would you say was the biggest conflict? Do you think it's something that you were mentioning earlier with, with these expectations? Or would you say one of the biggest conflicts were within the team, maybe you when the team maybe some members of the team may be someone outside of team?

Interviewee A: No, it was the conflicts that we saw. So the view from (Country), the possible changes that we saw, you know, to meet the expectations of the owners, options on how to adjust to the market developments, you know, low interest rate environment, etc. And then the decision, you know, to exit the market in the country, I mean, this was instilled is like, you cannot understand... Why would, why is this the option, why was not this consulted are other options evaluated, etc. But it was more like, you know, the Company and the new management wanted to show, you know, their strength, what they can do, what they can impose changes that they can make in their organization, and to meet the shareholders expectations (uhh...) and this is how it was done, if it was done right or wrong in at the end of the day. From the Company group perspective... You know, it's not going to be a big impact. Anyways, it's a small (business) unit, you know, we had the balance sheet of 7 billion euro, whereas the whole Company has a balance sheet of 900 billion or a trillion almost, you know, So it's like 0.7 percent.. If you if you save it, or you lose it, I mean, it's 0.7%, let's start to lose time on this. And let's just get it done. You know, if you look at it from the very top by just the message that you portray and showing, say, today, investors: "look smaller units, we're carrying them down, where, you know, streamlining the pool organization, focusing on the bigger markets, saving the resources, focusing, refocusing the resources to the to the areas and the markets where we see we need to focus on..." and that's a good message to make, but still...

Interviewer: What would you say was like the biggest revelation? From your side from this whole experience?

Interviewee A: Yeah, it was also something that was... (uhh...) with us throughout this change process, you know, and it was also something where I, as general manager had to convey this message to other colleagues, you know, in find the right balance, let's say... Not to be fully on the (other) side, saying: "Oh, this is makes no sense". This is something I'm still, you know, responsible for this realization you need to do and execute what was asked of me, but still to find the right balance and how you communicate it in a sense that you don't say: "Yeah, this needs to be done, because then that's only these points..", but also, not only on the other side, saying :"Yeah, this makes no sense. Let's not do it"... because it needed to be executed, you know, so you needed to keep the colleagues motivated, you need to do just accept the decision, because it cannot be reverted. And then make the best out of this decision that what you can make and keep the team as stable as possible. So that was the goal. Actually, that at least in my head was set the minute I found out about what's coming.

Interviewer: Let's just do the quick round of these short, you know, kind of quick draw questions. What would you say is the general of this change story?

Interviewee A: Thriller... Maybe Drama Thriller.

Interviewer: Yeah, that's great. And what would you say was the main moral of the story?

Interviewee A: Yeah, with the right team you can move mountains, nothing is impossible.

Interviewer: What would you say was the most frequently used metaphor, during your interactions with the team on this change project?

Interviewee A: That, that... that... that... that.. (seeking words) I meant with, you know, nothing being impossible, you know, and they can achieve anything, and we can achieve anything. Together, we will be moving, and making sure that we get the best out of this situation, do what we can. So still focusing, not on the problem, not on this, you know, dark side of what might be coming, but rather on what positive outcomes we can get out of this, that we have a great team as not only in the risk domain, but as a Company, we have a lot of talent here. We have a great products, a great core banking system, you know, many assets that will be extremely valuable to another organization. And let's try to make this success story at the end of the day.

Interviewer: Could you talk me through an anecdote which will demonstrate how to how did these change recipients behave before you started to change? You know, when they had no previous knowledge of upcoming organizational change?

Interviewee A: Yeah, so I would say we were, well you know, lubricated machine like me here locomotive, you know, running smoothly, whenever there's a obstacle, you know, the tracks... (uhh..) It, it's removed without any significant issues, if there's turns to take, the turns are made with whatever direction the train needs to move, it became extremely strong, heavy, we could move with the ever increasing speeds carry more burden with us so to say. And it was just a pleasure working this piece of machinery, you know, moving and running so smoothly. So that was how the situation was before announcement,

Interviewer: W already touched a little bit upon the, the inciting moment and how these things started moving around. What I would ask you to kind of recollect for the purpose of this research, is how did you articulate this awakening moment where the organizational change was formally initiated? What would you say were the key elements of your speech?

Interviewee A: Yeah, so that was the 13th of March at eight in the morning.... Yes, no, it's a, I remember that day, because they didn't sleep the whole night... Because I, you know, I knew about the fact that we are moving out of the Country market, since months before... We were already deeply involved in the due diligence processes, certainly individuals in the teams were already on boarded to the project, at the full team, get to know, you know? It was only in the out of 23 colleagues in the CRO domain, it was four of us that were already involved. And the rest (of the Company) didn't know, what's, what's coming. And I remember this night, you know, it was midnight, and then 1 AM and 2 AM in the morning, which is still fine... You know, I often go to bed at 2 AM, and then you see 3 AM. And, you know, I still couldn't sleep I said, you know, how can I communicate this, we're potentially closing down the bank, potentially, these colleagues are losing their jobs, you know, I mean, come on, this cannot be the reality... you know, how do you portray these messages, you know, it can be horrible that it can impact individuals, more than they've ever been impacted?

And I mean, I'm in the driving seat here. I mean, come on, this cannot be. I remember that. Then at 3:30 AM I was thinking I need to... And I don't know why this is (the case), I was looking for something to symbolize this change, you know, and to symbolize it in a positive way, you know, that it's a new awakening, so to say. And I said: "Okay, maybe what would be good is to, to buy a painting. Yeah, let's buy a painting." This was a moment at 3:30 In the morning, you know... And portraying the message or dates in the morning, okay... "3:30 AM, let's buy a painting, what should it be?" and then I was looking for I might be something, you know, growing trees or, you know, something new. And there is in Japan, they have the blooming of the blossom, cherry blossom, but there's also the plum blossom, you know, that it's also a symbol of awakening new life, new direction, new opportunities, new chances, it's starting something new, something better, something, something that's going to be positive. And I guess I needed that for myself, psychologically, you know, to go in this direction, so I found an artist in, in Germany. And if you recall, behind me, there's a big painting. It's a golden painting with the painting that I bought three hours before the call on March 21. So more than a year ago now. And actually, it was an online store that she had, and apparently I was the first customer in that store. It was just opened the day before, and I ordered (from them) this painting and some others for my apartment and then she gifted me two more (paintings) and wrote a nice letter. Thanking me and so... (Uhh..) Yeah, anyways, because I was the first customer and so on. But then I didn't go to bed at all this because, you know, it was like 5 o'clock in the morning, right? And I said: "Okay, I'm going to go to bed for three more hours. This makes no sense." So yeah, I started the call. And I said: "Thanks for joining the call as they can imagine starting at eight in the morning getting an invitation a day before today's before saying that it's an urgent meeting or an urgent call the day should be joining." It's, it was something that and that also, yeah, it was the 12th of March sorry, not the 13th of March. So, anyways, that way it was, something like: "You might have noticed already in the past months, you know, that we were coming up with some requests, that might have sound a bit off, but were a bit unusual, you know, getting some documentation, maybe some data itself, and so on. And some of the colleagues were already involved more than the others, but the Company decided, as it was decided also in other countries, our Country is now the one that will be reducing the business or exiting the market. But that we are in discussions with many organizations trying to get the buyer for the full organization, and this is our aim." So it was maybe a half an hour call with q&a session, in the end, and

Interviewer: During this q&a were there any strong reactions, or was there any direct demonstration of resistance or some negative emotions?

Interviewee A: I mean, first we had a call with the full bank staff, and then right after it was a call with only CRO domain. So it was very pragmatic questions, actually how, what, with my job security, you know, what does this mean? You know, and then at least we could say, what the intentions are, how this will progress going forward? And what are the next steps? And who will be now involved? What are we working on? Who are the (potential buyers) banks that we are talking to obviously, could we disclose this etc. But at least in this round with the CRO domain colleagues, it was a very open friendly discussion, you know, like you would have, I don't know, you have an accident with a car, and then you just are there to help, you know, so I was there to help to tell them anything that I have, I can tell them if. And I couldn't tell them, I said, like "With what banks, are we in discussions?" I said: "Yeah, this is something I unfortunately cannot disclose at this moment. But I can say that these are both local and international banks. And again, both smaller and larger organizations, and that it's at least half a dozen banks that we are in discussions with and this is not the full list. So we're still contacting other banks, the interested banks are contacting us. So this will still continue in going forward and also expectations going forward". Another set of questions included things like: "what business as usual processes need to continue and where do we need support within the due diligence process".

Interviewer: And then as this process kind of was moving forwards, what were some signs of growing reluctance with change recipients? Was there any demonstration of strong resistance, a big hurdle or challenging milestone during this project?

Interviewee A: Now, so for me, it was extremely important that the colleagues can always contact me, you know, right after this call. I said: "Please, everybody that wants to discuss anything at anytime, 24/7 Reach out to me anytime I'm here". And some colleagues did right after the call. And I also said: "If I'm in another call, I'm going to give you a call back the minute I'm there, and we will have this sessions that we had today, every day, for the time being, until we consider it is not necessary". So we had this announcement, individual called afterwards. And then every day, a session, you know, for half an hour, you know, just if somebody, if we have new information to share, if they want to talk, ask questions, in a bigger round, if they want it in the smaller round, whatever is necessary, it will be shared and provided. And support will be given whenever it's needed. And my focus was, you know, to convey the message, which will, which was clear, we are exiting the retail market, but also directing the energy, not into the abyss, you know, but directing it into something that we see as a goal, this is what we want to reach, you know, we want to go and find a buyer that will take on the full organization, with all the employees, with the product with the systems. And that's our core goal. And let's make this happen, you know, and we can make it to happen together, you know, just, if we put our energy together, like we did in the past years, when so many projects that we did, you know, implementation of current accounts, the record speeds of mortgages and the record speed in everything that we've done so far, successfully, we will achieve this as well. So obviously, you know, it was not a big applause. And yes, we will do it. Yeah. Who? Yeah, you know, everybody was scared, you know, why will? How is this going to impact me? Personally, you know, everybody had these thoughts. And I understood this, you know, and I also said, we are, as we've always been in the same boat, you know, so let's try to take this boat to nice place together.

Interviewer: Reverting to the metaphor that I've used previously, and the challenges that are kind of unfolding and, you know, unavailable, or maybe unforeseen threats, putting people at risk or at a disposition. What would you say, were the biggest conflicts within the team, or maybe your personal biggest conflicts during this whole year of the change implementation?

Interviewee A: Yeah, it was actually interesting that within the team, and within the organization, so zero domain, and the organization is the whole, there were not that many conflicts, it's really interesting that we were, in fact, then acting as a team, we knew what we need to do, you know, we had standard 7 billion euro balance sheet. And we knew if we want to have, you know, if you want to make this bank pretty to be sold, to make the bright, pretty, so to say that we need to balance our balance sheet, you know, and the only option was to get rid of 400,000 clients, you know, that was the environment and we knew that this is the expectation. And the question was, how can we do this?

But the conflict that I saw was within the Company group, you know, because we in the Country, you know, were pushing to get the buyer find the successor. You know, they take the full organization secure the positions of all the employees, you know, make this success story continuing under a new umbrella brand, it's fine, you know, it's still there, but it is going to be another name on top of the galaxy tower, you know, where I'm currently sitting. And there is another name on the Galaxy tower, but that was the thing, you know, it is the same table, you know, this is the same thing, everything's the same, the fluid, the plants are the same as they were nothing changed it just a new plant up there, you know, but this was the vision, you know, this is where we want to go. But like I said, before, we are presenting 0.7% of the balance sheet, the assets of the Company, you know, there was not this interest, you know, to fight it through, you know, to make it successful to continue the success story. I mean, come on, just run it down, you know, and just, it's fine. Why would you bother? I mean, it was not said like this directly, but the energy was not there. You know, it was not like, the willingness to push this through as much as it was internally. And so that was the biggest conflict that I've actually seen. And then convincing the stakeholders outside of Country was more challenging than convincing those internally to make this successful story.

Interviewer: Okay, since this interview is kind of nearing to an end, my concluding thoughts: 1) What would you say were kind of the first signs of successful transformation with the team? 2) What would you say was the biggest revelation from this process?

Interviewee A: Yeah, that was then the 12th of July, when we announced to the organization that we have a buyer and the buyer will be taking over the whole organization. And that mission accomplished. So to say, that's what we strive toward, that's what we achieved, and everybody in this organization will keep their jobs. And the jobs that they will keep will be the same as they have in terms of job title, salary, you know, everything will remain the same, whatever position they have, they will keep it or it will improve, in a sense, but it will not be any degradation or anything of that sort. So clearly, this was the best outcome we could wish for. And then that's looking back, I would even say, we might have needed to take more time, you know, to celebrate this, as a team... You know, we did so but it was like, we were already in a project of legal merge with the purchasing Bank (new owner). So this was then announced, mission accomplished, but now we have a tight deadline, September, we need a legal merge, let's push it through, you know, and we didn't take time to stay and take a step back to say, Now we take a day off, you know, just relax. Now, one day will not do any harm. You know, we're not jeopardize any. I mean, now, looking back, I really I really think that we should have done this, you know, as a executive committee, say, look, organization achieved that. Let's give the full organization a day off, let's do something, if possible outside, you know, it was summer, it was not a Corona was not a big issue. You know, we could have, we could have done more, but it was like, mission accomplished. This is what we need to do we have tight deadlines, put, let's push it, and we were pushing them until the legal merge. And now the colleagues are pushing with the same pace for the technical merge within the new bank. And this is something that in the reflecting now back, I would say is, you know... Not really giving enough opportunity to pay tribute to say, thank you, you know, to show that you cared that the gratitude, you know, what was the what was, what levels of energy were given to the organization to make this happen. But it was just the expectation done, (off to the) next, you know, let's continue, continue with the same pace. So this is something that I would say, looking back, I would do differently.

Interviewer: Thank you very much for sharing your experience, I think we covered the whole story,

Interviewee A: Just this one more point to consider... From my narrative, and the messages that I was conveying, it has always been hope and positive direction, you know, this options were not really considered, it was like the, no, we're going to make this happen. This is too good of a bank too good of an organization with so much top talent, and great processes, then systems in place to be ran over... Not even an option.

Interviewer: Yeah, I think really was kind of the main message that you were kind of projecting, and people were able to pick up.

Interviewee A: Yeah, it also depends on what kind of a change it is, you know, do as a matter of life and death situation. You know, if you have a system implementation, like you said yesterday, it's... it's a different ballgame, you know, if you don't make the right decision...

Interviewer: Sure, although there is a lot more resistance in those types of stories, because they "DO" have a choice. And when your job is kind of hanging on the line, you're not so eager to choose, and you're more eager to be a team player to play along to try to contribute it, it gives you a little bit of extra motivation, not necessarily the positive motivation, but it definitely motivates.

Interviewee A: No, but I that's what I meant, in a sense that perhaps these other change leaders in the sample that you already spoke to, had it tougher than me because I was in a life and death situation in terms of business. So for me, it was easier to lead this change, then if you have to lead the change, if it's, let's say in quotation marks "only" a technical system, you know, that you motivate the colleagues, even though they have less to gain and less to lose... You know, why would we do this, but here we have everything to lose and a lot to gain. So that's what I meant. They had it tougher than I.

Interviewer: Yeah, I mean, we do our best to try and compare these specific contexts. But obviously, every change is a little bit different. Every human being is a little bit different. That's why we try to kind of move away from, you know, a specific context and try to understand the narrative behind it. And I think we've we've been fairly successful in painting this, this picture of how this change was unfolding. What was the main idea and the overall results that were manifested in the end?

Interviewee A: Yeah, it was quite a journey.

Interviewer: Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, as far as the formal part of the interview, we can definitely consider it finished. I know you have a busy schedule and have to, move on to the to the next call that you have... I think in these anecdotes will be sufficient enough for our analysis and I'm looking forward to going through them once again in more detail.

Interviewee A: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's all fine, feel free to reach out in case you have any additional questions and thanks a lot. It was a pleasure as always, and talk to you soon. All the best!

Interviewer: Thank you very much. Have a nice day.