Interviewer(s): Timothy Price
Interviewee(s): Participant 04

Timothy Price: So the first thing that I will do is I'm going to read you an informed consent sheet and I'll just have you agree or don't agree to a series of statements. If You agree you can just say, Yes, that's fine, or whatever.

Participant 04: Okay, my internet connections been a bit jumpy this morning. So if I freeze or you freeze, so I might just ask you to repeat stuff.

Timothy Price: Yeah. Yeah, not, not a problem at all. So the first statement I confirm that I have read the information sheet for this study. I've had the opportunity to consider this information asked questions and have these questions answered satisfactorily.

Participant 04: Yes.

Timothy Price: I understand that my participation is voluntary, and then I am free to withdraw at any time without giving any reason. I also understand that I can decline to answer any questions during the interview.

Participant 04: Yeah.

Timothy Price: I Understand the information collected during my interview will be looked at by other researchers from Newcastle University who are working on or assisting with the study and I give permission for these individuals to have access to that information.

Participant 04: Yes.

Timothy Price: I understand that information collected during the interview may be shared with other researchers for use in future research or teaching purposes and that the data will be thoroughly anonymized first

Participant 04: Yeah.

Timothy Price: I understand that the interview will be audio video recorded, typed out and all identifying personal details will be removed.

Participant 04: Yeah

Timothy Price: I Understand that direct quotations may be taken from what I say and used in research and publications, but that I will not be identifiable from these quotation.

Participant 04: Yes

Timothy Price: I agree to take part in this study.

Participant 04: I do

Timothy Price: And if you'd like to receive a copy of the research findings, you can tell me now and I'll send those to you have

Participant 04: That would be great. Yeah. Thank you.

Timothy Price: Yeah. And would you like to receive a hard copy of the study documents? I can mail them to you.

Participant 04: Thats fine, yeah, no need.

Timothy Price: All right. And can you just say your name for me. And today's date, please. It's 18 June.

Participant 04: Participant 04 and and it's the 18th of June 2020.

Timothy Price: I am Tim price and it is the 18th of June.

Yeah, that's the hardest question I asked in the interview, that's what today's date is I really like to put people on the spot with that.

Participant 04: Thankfully, just tells me in the bottom corner of my screen. Because if not I wouldn't know.

Timothy Price: Um, alright, so that's that out of the way so we can go ahead and get started. So you have two children. Right? You said they are two and five years old?

Participant 04: Yeah.

Timothy Price: Both girls? Both boys?

Two Boys. and has the five year old. Like, would the five year old be in school yet or not yet?

Participant 04: Yes. Yeah, so he's in year one at the moment. Yeah, so he's in his second year at school, really.

Timothy Price: Okay. And neither of them had the flu vaccine. This year, right?

Participant 04: Um, you know what the five year old. I think did, does that mean-- yeah I thought about that this morning. I think he had the spray before the end of last calendar year.

Timothy Price: Yeah, well, they, they do it in school. So a lot of the kids who are, you know, once they've started school, it becomes sometimes a little easier to have them vaccinated right there in the school, but the younger the two year old has not had it that you know of?

Participant 04: Yeah, he definitely definitely hasn't no.

Timothy Price: Okay, what, what's his name, the younger one?

Participant 04: The younger one is [Younger Child]

Timothy Price: [Younger Child] and the older?

Participant 04: Is [Older Child].

Timothy Price: [Older Child]. So, what do they get up to these days? Are they, you know, hows everyone doing? [laughter]

Participant 04: You know, [Older Child]'s discovered Roblox, which is a, I don't know if you know it's a game basically on the iPad so he's he's six on the sixth of July. He's getting a Nintendo Switch for his-- I should see that really quietly. But he's yeah, he'se into, getting into all of that, which is a lot younger than I would have thought and maybe hoped and all but. He also, I mean in the minute He's missing his friends, you know, he loves to play with his friends. Either [inaudible]. He's you know he's one of these people here he is a bit of a rebel at home, but at school he likes structure and he listens to what other people tell him to.

Timothy Price: He behaves for everyone else.

Participant 04: Exactly. But he's the first child. So, he spoiled. So really, we've created the monster that we live with. You reap what you sow is what they say and thats true with [Older Child]. [Younger Child] is a lot more crazy than [Older Child] was sauce as a toddler, super strong willed, loves to play, but is also very affectionate and actually they're both really affectionate boys. But being stuck in lockdown. They've been fighting a lot

Timothy Price: Yeah.

Participant 04: Proper wrestle fighting now. You know he'd be three in September, but he's tough. He thinks he's five

Timothy Price: Yeah, yeah, I cannot imagine. I had two brothers growing up and I cannot imagine what we would have put my mother through if we'd been on lockdown with all of us, so I'm impressed by your by your persistence or determination or whatever it is.

Participant 04: No choice, no choice in the matter.

Timothy Price: Yeah that’s true. Your ability to cope then. [Laughter]

Participant 04: Yeah, wine. That's what, that's what parents are doing at the minute to get through.

Timothy Price: Yeah, absolutely. I, you know, you're certainly not alone in that that's already a theme I've seen in these interviews, a lot of rambunctious children at home. For the most part they do well?

Participant 04: I just think I just block out the craziness and just try and enjoy the, the really funny stuff that kids come out with things that they see. I just, yeah. Hilarious. So

Timothy Price: No, that's, I think, that's nice. I mean, whatever, whatever you've got to do to to get through. Right.

Participant 04: Yeah.

Timothy Price: So can you tell me what you know about the flu. Just like in general kind of first first thoughts about the flu.

Participant 04: That it's possibly rarer than people think. So most people when they're ill think that they've got the flu when actually they we maybe haven't. Typically the flu would absolutely floor you, you know, you'd be incredibly sick high temperature in bed feeling really lethargic aches, pains, that kind of thing. And the different strands each year. So it's something which changes therefore is hard. When it comes to things like vaccines to be absolutely sure you know that you're, yeah you don't get the vaccine and then you're completely immune from getting flu. and obviously if you're healthy, you're going to cope a lot better than if you're if you're ill, or if you're immunocompromised and yeah that's you know when it's dangerous to get it so that kind of things. I think of immediately.

Timothy Price: Yeah, that's great. So as far as symptoms you said like really high temperature you know, lethargic, at all that kind of stuff. Um, how, like, how is that are those are the things you would look out for, if you thought your child was getting the flu or is there anything else like you would expect to see if your kids got the flu?

Participant 04: That's probably what I'd expect it's really difficult, isn't it with kids and viruses, because it quite often is, you know, high temperature give calpol. And what I find with kids that when they're ill that there are a lot more resilient. So I think that they, as soon as we start to feel ill we maybe start to talk about it, but I don't think it's until they're actually feeling significantly poorly that that you really pick up on it. I think that both of mine, quite often when they've been poorly and had things like tonsillitis you don't realize it's that bad. And then all of a sudden they're absolutely wiped out. And then, you know, as a parent, then it becomes a bit more worrying. So I think it's quite hard to pick up on some of the early signs, because they're often so engaged in play. And yeah, then they don't moan in the same way that an adult does. You know they don't start saying, "I've got a bit of a headache". I think, actually, when you realize they're sick, you think, "oh yeah, they haven't really been eating their Tea for the past couple of days", you know, and you can maybe see that there was a pattern emerging that they were getting yell, but it's not often until they're really poorly that I, yeah, I would know.

Timothy Price: Yes. Yeah, that makes sense. I think communicating, you know, about being sick with really young kids is part what they're saying and part just observing. You know what they look like to you.

Participant 04: Yeah yeah

Timothy Price: So do you know anyone whose child has gotten ill with the flu that you know for sure it was flu?

Participant 04: No, not for sure. Definitely not now. And I think that when kids get ill and then that illness spreads. It's often just, you know, everything that comes back from doctors typically is "oh it's viral, you know, it will pass, give them calpol, stay hydrated. Don't worry about their eating, you know, give them what they want to, if they're, if they're hungry." So I think that, you know, it's quite hard to identify whether they've had the flu or whether it's just been one of those viral type infections. And I think it's quite often, you know, sickness bugs, there's quite clear signs that you know vomiting is is going on and that that spreads. Then yeah, when mine have had tonsillitis obviously when when they're poorly. You can see their throat, you can feel they're ill. So no, I don't. Yeah, I don't hear anybody say they have the flu.

Timothy Price: Yeah. Um, can you tell me like about what you think getting sick with the flu is like for kids, not so much about symptoms which you kind of already spoke to you, but like, do you think it is, if one of your kids were to get the flu, is that something to be really worried about or would you be more like, you know, "it'll kind pass on its own" How serious you think it is? how worried about it would you be?

Participant 04: My children cope better with being ill than we do, as parents, so I wouldn't actually be that concerned and actually selfishly, the concern becomes that we are going to get ill. Because we know that as a child. If they're ill it’s, it's awful for them. And if they're upset, it's really awful. But you can comfort them. You can just try and you know. Get them, het them through that period. I think the worry is "Oh, now the next child will get it. And we'll have to have two weeks off of work or something. But then, its actually. Oh, we'll get it and actually" And parenting as a poorly parent is is no fun at all, you know? I don't know with mine when they were younger, both the boys have been breastfed, and it's been like somebody like my mom is apt to come over and just look after the children, just bring them to me, like just feed them and then and then take them away. So I'm not, I'm not particularly worried about yeah the the effects on the kids there. Luckily, they're healthy. They don't have any underlying conditions. That we know about. So yeah, it's not a massive concern. It's more the impact on the rest of the family.

Timothy Price: Yeah, no. That makes sense that and just what you described. That does sound like something I would worry about, you know, sounds sounds like kind of a tough situation to be a parent. So when you want to learn about a sickness, like the flu, you know, anything from symptoms to what you should do if your children get it. Where would you go to get that information?

Participant 04: And I would Google and probably just go straight to NHS pages and look at that. But then look at other other sites which which come up. I'm not a researcher, but I work at the University and I support academics who are doing social science research. But I have got a bit of an understanding about research. So I would look at some studies and I would have some degree, some ability to evaluate actually whether they were, um high quality research and maybe wouldn't read full papers, but I would look at, you know, look at those and be able to get something from from those as well. I don't have a massive distrust in the NHS. But I do know that certain guidelines are somewhat outdated, or some people think that some of the approaches that they're, they take are outdated. So I would always start with them. But then you know, if it was something that I was worried about or concerned about would look in a bit more detail into other papers that I knew were reputable sort of things like from the BMJ, The Lancet, you know, top medical papers that as a non a non specialist I can access, due to kind of like open access, but also that I have some understanding in so I would explore like that. And then also, I find, like if your child is ill and you take them to the doctor. Sometimes they say things which are in conflict with advice, but actually are based on being a GP for fourty years, and having children themselves. So I think that sometimes you know when I have gone and spoken to a GP about, about one of the kids being ill, they offer stuff which might be classed as anecdotal. But I also believe in some of that experience.

Timothy Price: Yeah. So in that situation, if you know, you imagine a situation where one of your kids had flu and you looked online and NHS websites said one thing and then you took them to the GP, or you call the GP, and the GP said something else entirely. It sounds like what you're saying is that you would be more inclined to trust the GP. Is that, is that right or am I not understanding correctly here? kind of, what would you do in that situation?

Participant 04: I Think that's where I would look look further evidence online and then that's when I would maybe look to other parents as well. So, you know, I'm part of a really big group on Facebook called, and it's still called, slings and things. It's basically a parenting group. I don't know if you've heard of this through, through anybody else, it was based on baby wearing but it's turned into a massive regional and parenting group. So I don't know, its got 10,000 members or something and and it's quite a good place to put out concerns. "Has your child...?" So for me, it's, it's about probably getting information from quite a lot of different sources. And evaluating that based on, yeah. Based on my own instincts.

Timothy Price: Yeah.

Participant 04: As well. But I suppose to say that I would do that with something like flu, which I don't think as a massive risk to my child. And, you know, things like tonsillitis and other viral things, but I would never do that If I thought that there was something more serious. You know, when people look to Dr. Google and other mothers for for advice, then you know. There was a time that [Older Child] had a large lump in his neck and obviously, as a parent, that's was really, really worrying. I wouldn't be looking for anecdotal evidence from parents who say "Don't worry about it. It's nothing. It's just glandular" I would, that's when I would trust doctors and other consultants to look at that.

Timothy Price: That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for sort of walking me through that makes a lot of sense to me.So my next set of questions are to help me learn your thoughts kind of around the flu vaccine, specifically of the benefits it does or doesn't have for your child. So, these questions are kind of more focused on the younger child, on [Younger Child].

Right, this kind of, you know, because, yeah, so the kind of thinking about how many things that what do you think the benefits of your [Younger Child] getting the flu vaccine would be?

Participant 04: While we said earlier that you know we realize it doesn't cover all strands of flu and that if he got flu and it wouldn't be, I don't think it would seriously, seriously impact on him. I'm not, you know, not massively concerned, obviously you want to do anything that you can to protect your child. So if someone's going to offer you something which could potentially stop them from being poorly, then I'm more than happy to take, you know, to take that. What was the question again Tim?

Timothy Price: Um, what do you think the benefits are of having a child vaccinated?

Participant 04: Um benefit. Yeah. Again, as I mentioned benefit to the wider family and you know that if he's not going to bring that home to to us. It will protect us as parents, but also with protect [Older Child]. And a lot about taking responsibility in society, really, that if this is something which could stop somebody more vulnerable getting it. So [Older Child], you know, he might be fine. But he may be starting to get the virus, the flu, and be contagious. I take him to a soft play and there's somebody there who's pregnant or there's somebody there, whose child is playing, but has asthma or, you know, and he passed that on, then I think that there's some social responsibility to vaccinate your child, if it's available.

Timothy Price: Yeah, so it's like, you know, there's a benefit to your child. And then there's like a wider, like collective benefit.

Participant 04: Yeah.

Timothy Price: Yeah, that's interesting. Do you think there are any downsides to having your child get the flu vaccine?

Participant 04: No, I don't, no. I think there's a lot of stuff out there, isn't there? The anit-vax debate and all. and I think that while I don't think the government always does stuff right, and the NHS doesn't always do stuff right, I don't think that they would do anything to harm, you know, children. And I don't think that, I don't think they would make the the massive expense, you know, financially. So I just, yeah, I don't think so.

Timothy Price: Um, so if you want to learn more about a vaccine like the flu vaccine, you know, things like not just what are the benefits, what are the side effects, but, you know, things like who is it recommended for how do I get it, where would you go to get that information?

Participant 04: That would, yeah, that would be the NHS or Public Health England or, you know, an official kind of government health site.

Timothy Price: Yeah, all online stuff? there aren't any other resources yould use?

Participant 04: I think that school one sent. So with the older child not with [Younger Child], but I would expect it follow the same process, you would be given a leaflet. You know, and you would be given a consent form. If you weren't taking them to the doctor yourself to do it. So yeah, so that would be that kind of written format and when we took [Older Child] to get his, before he started school, we took him to the GP and obviously just spoke to the nurse and said, and I probably asked her "Is it likely to have any side effects?" and, you know, she would have explained, maybe some anecdotal stuff as well as some official stuff. Yeah.

Timothy Price: Yeah. Um, so as far as, you know, [Older Child] got the vaccine through school and [Younger Child] has not had the vaccine. So, was it a decision that you made not to have [Younger Child] the vaccine or was it something that sort of happened? Like can you walk you me through sort of what that was like.

Participant 04: Tim, we, we haven't been offered it for [Younger Child]. So I'm not sure if, I'm not sure what happened last, last year. But we weren't offered it. I don't know whether. Did they just offer it to children who are three? or I'm not entirely sure why we haven't. But I certainly didn't explore it either.

Timothy Price: Has he, has he like just turned two years old?

Participant 04: It was August that he was two so...

Timothy Price: Yeah, I'm, you know, I'm not sure. And I would be, you know, more question for his doctor, as far as why he you know, if it is recommended for him if he should have it. My understanding of what the recommendations from Public Health England is that children who are, two, three and four years old, you know, before they're in school should receive the vaccination. So you haven't you know you were never contacted about it? Nobody ever brought it up with you?

Participant 04: No, no. And I think, I think, actually, when [Older Child] had it he didn't have it until he was three. I wonder if it's something which the local trust doesn't offer it until they're three?

Timothy Price: Yeah, I'm not sure.

Participant 04: I'm not sure, but honestly, it didn't actually occur to me to investigate. I just took it there. Yeah, unless somebody told me. He did have his, like developmental check, and they asked if all of his immunizations were up to date, which they were. They didn't ask about the flu vaccine, didn't say anything about it.

Timothy Price: Yeah, and was that, was that appointment with this birthday in August that that happened, or is that?

Participant 04: It didn't happen until the start of the year. I think they're always a bit behind in Newcastle. There's quite a big delay. I think health Health severices have got absolutely massive case loads and they just tend to put their classic. "What would have been the two year check" I think the form it might be better to say "between two and three years check and they hope to see you in that interim and that you know if you've got any problems you you would act. But yeah, he was quite late with that check.

Timothy Price: Yeah, I'm so you said that I think that it hadn't occurred to you to even, you know, look into it or anything. It just isn't, just didn't occur to you as something that was an option really?

Participant 04: No, not at all.

Timothy Price: It sounds like sort of what you're saying is that there wasn't really a decision at all. It was like there was nothing. And then you realize that there may have been an option. At some point, but you never really know that option was there. Is that right or have I misunderstood?

Participant 04: Yeah, that's absolutely right. Yeah. Yeah. And if, if the option had come up, I would have done it, you know, that would, I would have. I would just, you know, he would have had it, but that just didn't come up

Timothy Price: Yeah, that's interesting. Thank you. So, my last few questions Are to help me learn your thoughts kind of vaccination as a whole. So, has [Younger Child], you know, the younger child received any other vaccinations, like all the routine childhood ones?

Participant 04: Yeah, he's up to date with everything which is recommended.

Timothy Price: And as far as deciding to have him receive those vaccinations. Was that something that you, you know, you researched in the same way, kind of, that we've talked about NHS website, all those other resources or?

Participant 04: No, not really. I am, you know, I think that pregnancy and birth and early childhood is quite medicalized and that's something which is is quite normal. There is like a definite movement towards people having more home births people not accepting particular tests. But I'm very much in the, I took everything through pregnancy and through birth and afterwards that was, was recommended. I think that I didn't really, I wouldn't go against that. So even if I read something which made me think "is this absolutely necessary?" I think, as a parent, if you didn't do it. I would never forgive myself if something happened. So, you know, it's that. I don't know if I'm making much sense. But I just, I went along with it and I was happy to to trust, you know, that that these actions were really for the, for the benefit of, of children. I think that, you know, a lot of the anti-vax debate is like nonsense and based on poor research and, you know, and yeah, and I can see all of Latin wouldn't accept any of that. And I think that you know the only, the only thing would have been The MMR stuff, which before having children I knew that any of the evidence associated that that was absolute nonsense. But, you know, Ive realized that, but you know they've eradicated, a lot of really, really awful childhood diseases through, through vaccination programs and yeah I'm kind of 100% behind all of that.

Timothy Price: Yeah, no. That makes sense to me. It sounds like what I'm understanding is that you knew what all the recommendations and everything, you knew that these were serious diseases. So there wasn't much research on your part that needed to be done essentially. You were content to, you know, accept that whatever medical professionals were saying to you was kind of the case.

Participant 04: Where as if they'd maybe said "We can give him 10 injections, which might stop him from getting a cold". That's where I probably would have said no. But you know, it's talking about things which you know can give children lifelong issues, you know, the diseases that arevaccinated against are si serious. Yeah, I would, I would trust it. That was the right thing to do.

Timothy Price: Yeah. Have you personally had the flu vaccine this year?

Participant 04: No. and I didn't have it when I was, I think I've had it when I've been pregnant before but now, no, not this year.

Timothy Price: Yeah. Yeah, so that is almost the last question. The thing I close on is just like a general, is there anything else that you want to say about the flu, or the flu vaccine, or vaccination in general, or anything that you were hoping I would ask that I didn't. This is kind of your moment if there's anything you want to say.

Participant 04: It's been really interesting actually talking about it and thinking about it. I suppose what I'm interested in and You're probably interested is what's going to happen around the current um vaccination debate. I suppose I want to ask you, as somebody who really knows more, what what do you think is gonna happen. They're not going to vaccinate everybody. Are they going to create a vaccine that if you're poorly, you might get it and you might have a greater chance of surviving or? It's not really about the flu, but just just

Timothy Price: Yeah, no, I wish, I wish I knew the answer to that question. I think I wish everybody knew the answer to that question. It is, its you know, it is really interesting to just to hear from, you know, kind of where everybody's heads are at with thinking, you know, obviously the flu is a much different virus from coronavirus. Something I've been thinking about is if coronavirus has changed people the way people think about the flu now. Like, You know, are we maybe taking flu a little more seriously now? or is it that we're looking at coronavirus and saying, "well, at least flu isn't that bad". So, you know, it may be going in the other direction and now we're thinking of it more like, you know, the common cold. But as far as the vaccine for coronavirus, I have no idea, I hope, I hope there's one very soon.

Participant 04: Yeah, that's what's interesting is like for us all to get a, I don't know if I would feel a bit less comfortable in getting it compared to getting things like the flu vaccine because so many people have had that vaccine. You know the process. Now, is this obvious masses rush to develop something then, for me it's, what would, what would be the long term effects be? So, you know, I might be more fearful, particularly with the kids that if they said, "oh, we've developed the vaccine. We're going to give it to everybody who's, you know, we're going to give it to everybody." And then they give it to children and there was different reaction. So that's where there's that weighing up to to do. I think that's why it's going to be really, really difficult and part of me maybe thinks that would maybe be better if they just said to me, "Oh, you're not eligible for it, and neither are your kids" and then the risk is maybe a more known risk that as a healthy family, if we were to get coronavirus, we might be really sick. But we'd be okay. Whereas if we get the vaccine, it's the it's even more unknown, isn't it.

Timothy Price: Yeah, that's an interesting an interesting point that you would worry most about giving it to your kids because presumably. I mean, first of all, they're your children. You want to protect them, but also young people, you know, they, they have their whole lives for to be affected by whatever the side effects are whereas, as an adult, it feels. Well, I don't know. I also wouldn't want to deal with side effects either. [laughter]

Participant 04: No me either, absolutely not! So I don't know. Maybe they're doing some weighing up. Yeah. I suppose it's where it would be, it would be my decision to get it for myself. Whereas, I'm actually deciding for my child so slightly different. Obviously I want the best for myself and the best my children, but there's something about being a parent, isn't it, you don't want anything at all to happen to them.

Timothy Price: And I think you I think it makes sense that when you would be, when you're making a decision that may have consequences for yourself that you, that that's an easier decision than one where you're making one thats going to have consequences for somebody else, someone that you you know care so much about, your child. You know, I can see that that's a very different situation. Yeah. It is. It is an interesting question.

Participant 04: Yeah.

Timothy Price: Right, well that's going to conclude the interview, so I'll stop the recording now.