Interviewer(s): Henry
Interviewee(s): Fred

Henry: Great. Thank you. Just to be clear, if you're quoted directly in the final paper, it'll be under a pseudonym and your company will not be named. It will just be spoken of generally an ambulance company in the Philly area.

Fred: OK cool, that sounds good.

Henry: OK, great. Let me pull up my question list. So, Fred, how old are you?

Fred: I am 31.

Henry: And where are you located?

Fred: I'm in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. The United States.

Henry: And what is your current job?

Fred: I'm a paramedic at an ambulance company, a private ambulance company.

Henry: And how long have you been there?

Fred: I've been there for about six years.

Henry: Is this your only job?

Fred: Yes. Yes, it is.

Henry: You volunteer anywhere?

Fred: No. No, I did have like two jobs going on for a little while, but I just I just stick to this now.

Henry: So what was your job in January of 2020?

Fred: I was still a paramedic at the same ambulance company that I'm at now, dealing with a covid outbreak.

Henry: So when did you first hear about covid?

Fred: I guess it was around that time. Must have been January. February. I don't keep up with news too much. It's pretty much just stuff I see mostly Facebook. So I guess I was like, run the first time that I heard about it was in January. I guess I was like everybody else. It was a it was something that was like new.

It seemed really scary. It seemed something to be taken seriously. And I guess I was just as much up in arms about it as everybody else.

Henry: Can you expand on that?

Fred: Yeah, sure.

Um… I guess around that time… it just became more and more politicized. Unfortunately, instead of being looked at as something that should be approached from a medical standpoint, everything was covered. Everybody started taking sides over. I mean, jeez, even that really was it was even taking sides against, like was it real or not, which is kind of crazy, but I guess I guess people were taking a look at it as like it was something to be, not really a big deal.

And I was on the opposite end of that. I was like, we're not taking, we're not making as much a big deal about it as we should be. So I guess things started coming down the line where he was like, they're going to start shutting down the economy and stuff. And I was all for that at the time.

It all seemed like it was a good idea. There was something to be not taken lightly. It was dangerous. There was a… I mean, there was just a flood in every hospital. It seemed like every house was just seemed to be booked. And dealing with people who were coming up positive was, uh, it was it was really hard at the time.

We eventually got PAPRs where it was like, I mean, you're pretty much walking around like an astronaut suit and it just made it like really difficult taking people home in that. And like, you know, he had to like carry them with stairs and stuff wearing all that kind of equipment. It was like really crazy. So but, you know, we tried our best to keep it concealed and try to keep it try to keep coworkers from like getting getting caught with the Covid and stuff.

And then I, through the rest of the year, you hear about like people dying and I had two coworkers that I wasn't keeping in contact with anymore who I knew. And they ended up passing away, too. And it was like it was real, man. You know, you had friends or it was family members.

It was it was kind of crazy.

Henry: Anyone from [organization]?

Fred: Yeah. Yeah.

Henry: Who passed away?

Fred: I don't remember his name. He was an older guy. He was missing a couple fingers. He was a paramedic. I can't remember his name, but I've only seen him a few times at [organization]?

Henry: It wasn’t [name] The little guy?

Fred: No, not [name]. None of he was a tall guy. He was an older dude. He always wore a hat and glasses, and he was missing a couple of fingers. I can't remember his name. But he wound up dying. And then somebody who used to work at [organization], he wound up working at a different company, and I would see him from time to time at hospitals that I go to.

And then he died, too. Man, he was. He was an overweight dude, I think. I mean, he must have been above like 250 pounds, which we know now. Is a really big problem as far as like if you get COVID, it's like it's a really high morbidity rate. If you have like diabetes or stuff like that, which I'm not sure if he was diagnosed with diabetes.

I do know he was an overweight guy and I know that that kind of, um, that kind of just makes it a lot worse. So he wound up dying too. It was, it was really unfortunate. It was really a shame. But, you know, to that point though, there was plenty of people who got it and they ended up being fine.

And that was really something. It was, it was really crazy. You kind of didn't know what was going to happen until later information came out down the line, like, now we're pretty solid on the information we got. I'm sure there's always more stuff that we could find out, but at the time, it was like, Oh, my God, it was a circus, you know?

Well, you didn't know what was going to happen, you know, if you're going to go or not. It was really nuts.

Henry: Okay. But back to… right… we'll come back to some of that. some of that uncertainty. But before this before the first wave really started hitting. You said you're getting your news from Facebook, Correct?

Fred: Yeah. Yeah.

Henry: And you said it seemed scary. You thought it you said you thought it would be a big deal?

Fred: Yeah. Yeah. It seemed like because it was new. And since since, like, essentially working on the front lines there with with the ambulance, it started just it was something to be taken serious. And the company definitely took it seriously. And, you know, we all just kind of feared for each other. I mean, because we are just because we're dealing with these sick patients, every single day.

And we were we were having multiple COVID patients a day. And it was just like, you know, just you wanted to protect yourself as much as possible.

Henry: When did when did you really start seeing the patients?

Fred: I guess I mean, it had to have been January, February, and then it picked up later because more people were being hospitalized for it and so it was around that time. It was around that time. It was all throughout the rest of the year. And I can't pinpoint months since it was a couple of years ago, but it started off slow and then it really started to pick up.

We were getting patients all the time. Going home, going to another facility, And even then, it was a wide range of different levels of critical illness that they had. I mean, so I mean, sometimes you would take somebody home, and they were positive, but they were asymptomatic in the hospital either like they were treated and now they're fine or they ended up in the hospital and they're asymptomatic the entire time.

Maybe they just got checked out for a cough. Sometimes they'd go in there for, you know, something as simple as like foot pain. And they just run a covid test anyway, they come out positive. 90 today wants to go home because we have to provide some kind of isolation for your transport back to your house, even though they're a walkie talkie, right?

You get there and you can just let them off the stretcher and they walk. But we still had to like wear like a full astronaut gear and make sure everything was like as isolated as possible. So you're taking the same degree of, of isolation, essentially, whether they were asymptomatic or not. And then that started to change down the line as well, for people who were like asymptomatic but still positive.

You could like further further down the line as more information came out about the virus, it was just like you could have gone from wearing your N100 and, uh, not fully wearing that big astronaut gear. So. Well, at the beginning, man, you wanted to suit up as much as possible.

Henry: Okay. So did you and your coworkers discuss this at all?

Fred: Yeah, there was this… everybody had different thoughts. So some people seemed to be like it was just another thing to deal with. It was just another it was just another kind of like pain in the butt to work at work to deal with. But, you know, it's unfortunate that people took that stance on it. But I don't know.

I think I think after time went and you started to realize that maybe it wasn't as serious as like, maybe the news outlets were making it out to be, because more information came out about survival rate and all that. And it started to come out that like if you don't have any co-morbidities, you have a really high chance of being OK.

So I think people's idea about it started to change. I know mine did. I mean, I started out pretty fearful of it. And then as time went on, I was like, Oh, you know what? I think I'm going to be alright. As far as this information is coming out, it looks like I might be OK, but at the same time you still want to be careful and keep, uh keep.

You keep its isolation as much as you could because you don't want to affect anybody else, especially in our line of work. When you're dealing with sick patients all the time, you don't want to be the person who's transmitting to somebody else and then they end up dead. You know, that was a real possibility. That stuff, that stuff happens.

So you wanted to still be careful.

Henry: So for some people, just some more B.S. to deal with. Was anyone really panicking?

Fred: Some people, a lot of people quit, actually, not now that you mention it. There was a lot of people at the beginning who were like, they were like, I have comorbidities or they're dealing with family members who do like they were they had their parents that they were dealing with at home. And a lot of people actually quit and ended up just staying home and collecting a stimulus.

I don't know what happened after that, but I haven't seen them. But there was a lot of people who are like, You know what? I'm actually getting out of the business entirely. And they started doing something else and they got out of there. So you had a wide range of people being like, you know, like, oh, we're going to be fine, which was typically the younger crowd of coworkers all the way up to the opposite end of the spectrum, where you had like older coworkers or coworkers or taking care of family who were just like, I'm out, dude.

Henry: And they quit, though… and I know you said it's hard to narrow down the timeline…

Fred: I'd say it was definitely earlier than it was later because like the highest fear was at the beginning. So it was around that time where, you know, it became it became it's it became seen that like we were, you know, we're not going to be the ones who are going to be sent home to stay home; we're going to be the people who are still open.

Right. So we still essential employees. So, you know, we still had to show up. We had to show up at work. We still had to deal with those patients. So it was around that time that people were like they were really just like Self-reflecting and being like, should I be out here putting myself at risk when I'm still putting my family members at risk, too?

So people were, you know, deciding whether they wanted to stay or not.

Henry: you said these were a lot of the older…?

Fred: Correct? Yeah. The people who might have had some some co-morbidities like diabetes or anything like that or people who were taking care of their elderly family members.

Henry: Did that change at all how you perceived the crisis?

Fred: Yeah, it did. It changed over time. Like everyone else at the beginning, I was I was pretty fearful since I'm in the front lines anyway.

I guess I guess my opinion changed on a line when it started to be when I started to become like really politicized. I really didn't like it, it seemed that we were just well, like I said before, it just seemed like people were kind of like taking sides. And it started to be like not a medical issue. It started to be like, not a medical question.

I mean, and I don't know, it just, it just got really it got really nuts.

Henry: When sort of when, do you think the politization started?

Fred: I guess I guess it happened maybe like February or March. I feel like it got worse. It definitely became I mean, the situation didn't get better as far as it being politicized because of what the things that Trump said. So I just it definitely made it worse, unfortunately. And then I guess with Dr. Fauci coming in to, coming into the picture, more and more people have started pointing fingers and what we should and should not be doing, as far as like staying home mask mandates, vaccine mandates.

And it really became a question of like who what political side you're on instead of like, is this something that you need or is it something that someone else needs? And so, like, my opinion started to change when again, I don't remember when this or when this time happened either, but my opinion started to change when they started talking about vaccine mandates.

And at the time, I think at the time, I'm pretty sure there was already mask mandates, which I was OK with. Like everybody says, like it's an annoyance to go to a restaurant or whatever and you had to wear a mask. But you know, it was helping. If anything, it was like wearing the mask and keeping like your separation of six feet or whatever,

Those kinds of things were preventing transmission for people to people, even though now it's kind of like the masks aren't as efficient as what we were told from the beginning. The point is it's better than not wearing anything at all. And like, that was really the bottom line. And it did help. It helped. It wasn't a 100% perfect solution, but it was probably I guess I guess probably the cheapest answer that everybody could really afford.

And staying home was another thing that, you know, that's something that we could do that everybody that everyone can do. But as far as like when when I started, when we started getting into the question of like vaccine mandates, that's when I started to be like, my opinion on it's kind of changing because it started to be like, you have to get the vaccine.

And from a medical standpoint, I really didn't jive with that because our, the basis of my job revolves around individual choice. It revolves around whether you want to my medical intervention or not. And I mean, look, if someone goes to the hospital and they don't like what's going on, they can find themselves out AMA and leave and they can totally do it, that's fine.

Henry: When I was at [company] I had a dude who was having a heart attack and didn't want to go to the hospital and we signed AMA and he walked out the room.

Fred: Exactly.

Henry: The consensus was he was not making it through the night.

Fred: Wow, yeah. Yeah. I mean, even, even faced with death, they still have to. You should still be able to decide for yourself what you want your medical interventions to be.

Henry: So speaking of deciding for yourself, actually, in this period of like January to March, the early, early period before it hit, did you change your behavior at all.

Fred: As far as like socially?

Henry: Anything?

Fred: I’m trying to think. Well, I definitely saw my friends less. I mean, I don't know if that was a result of me choosing to do that or just because it was important for people not to leave the house or, you know, being like being like forced to not leave essentially. I definitely I guess I definitely took my time to give more distance between, you know, me and whoever I'm standing with online, but that's probably about it.

I guess I didn't change too much.

Henry: So again, like you said, you you were keeping up on things. It seems scary early.

Fred: Yeah.

Henry: And again, just in the January to March period, did your perception of COVID change at all over that time?

Fred: At the time, I think I really dug my heels in and I don't think my opinion really changed until later, probably later in the year. OK, but from January to March, it seemed to be it was pretty much the same. It was something to be to be not taken lightly. It seemed to be something I was like really dangerous and you see firsthand the fucking hospitals are just full.

So I don't think it was I don't think my opinion of it changed at that point. I was still like scared. I was still like, man, people aren't take it serious enough. I think I was still in that mindset.

Henry: Did you have a eureka moment, or an oh shit moment when you realized how bad it was going to be?

Fred: I'm trying to think. No, I think it was something that happened over time. I mean, it wasn't a long time but it was definitely like, Well, you know what? I guess? I guess you're right because because it would be like, you know, December, November, it's it's just another day. And then as far as like working, and then you come January, February, and it's like you get you're getting all these fucking emails from your job being like wear this, wear that we're having PAPRs come out.

You guys that come in for training for these astronauts suits these astronauts and you're like, holy shit. You're like, you know, like, how and you started to think like, how is my job? Going to change from here on out? Is this going to be how it's always going to be? You know, everybody saying like the new normal or whatever, and you're just like, dude, are we going to have to wear these astronaut suits for the rest of my job?

And like, you really didn't know! And I don't know. It was really fucking crazy. So then you would get to the hospital and that place would just be packed and you know, you get to these certain floors like the ICU floors and like nurses are all gowned up. They're walking in and every room like they're wearing, it seemed like it was just as much gear as we were and you're like, Damn, dude, this is really something different.

Henry: OK, so you said your organization gave you PAPRs and they gave you some advice. What else do they do to prepare?

Fred: So they would go into every ambulance and they provided us with these big these big containers, like big containers. And they were just full of gowns like sanitary stuff, like wipes with like bleach and all that kinds of jazz and also like duct tape and we had to essentially try to seal off as much as we could when we had a patient inside of the back of the ambulance.

So we were sealed off so so some of the the trucks from the back to the front had those window partitions and you just had to duct tape, that shit, make sure like nothing was going through or whatever. And you know, like I said before, it's we really didn't have a foolproof answer, but this is, I guess, the best answer that the company could come up with.

So it was like is a lot of duct taping partitions. And then we found it to be better if we actually just had one or I mean, not one, but like specific crews who whose only job for that day was to meet up with the crews who had cold positive patients who were considered high risk as far as like symptoms. And so the crews would get there, they’d pull out these big massive containers, they would gown the crews up and duct tape and a wrists into like their pants and their boots like stuff.

Like that. And so we had these crews who would respond with you and they would be the ones in charge of pretty much keeping isolation at a top level as much as they could. And then they were also in charge of cleaning your truck and making sure that all of your equipment was clean afterwards. So we actually had uh, I don't know what it's called, but it looks like almost like a leaf blower it's like this big machine and it has like this battery powered fan.

And this actually was spraying down well, a lot of like the the like sanitary… it was like spraying like bleach or something. I'm not sure what was inside it, but it was like it was a snow- it was a leaf blower essentially, they would go around a truck and it was just spraying everything, spraying everything down.

Henry: Yeah. That I mean, do you think that that focus on surface disinfecting was effective?

Fred: I mean, I would say I really you know, I can't provide any data as far as like, you know, if we didn't do it or if we did do it, what was what was the outcome? I, I couldn't provide you that data, but I would say it's probably like I said, it was I guess it was the best answer to the job could come up with.

I would think that it did. But it was also like you know, you want to clean something, you wipe it down with bleach. You know, you're always told that's a better option. So, you know, that's that's what we did. Like, that's, that's what they were. But as far as effectiveness, it was really dependent upon how well that person was spraying, you know, so it really came down to like person to person how well they did it because we would we would have covid patients and you'd have one crew who, like the entire back of the fucking truck is dripping wet like everything.

And then you have other people who are just like they gave a once over to like, all right, we'll see if we have another crew to get to. And you're like, they didn’t fucking do anything! So then you would have to go back and do it yourself, you know, just start wiping everything down and shit. So it's really dependent on how well that person was was being effective.

Henry: Sounds like pretty light duty.

Fred: For them. Yeah, I would imagine because you just, you're just going from place to place and you don't really have any patient contact. It's pretty much just like, you know, they gowned you up and then they cleaned the truck afterwards. And I think they also handled paperwork from the facility that you're sending to the facility that you're ending up at.

But I don't think they actually had any patient contact.

Henry: Was there any- were there any meetings or group discussions?

Fred: Not informally, but we did have meetings for just like say, well, this this was also all part of the one meeting that we had, and it was to go and get training for the PAPR. So I guess they sent out they did send out emails about what we should and should not be doing as far as isolation is concerned.

And then we had a meeting for PAPR and like what we're supposed to do with the PAPR and stuff, but we didn't have there was no discussion about whether or not hey, this is the right thing to do or wrong thing to do as far as like socially or morally, we didn't have those kind of direct discussions as far as that.

Henry: Do you remember when the PAPR thing was?

Fred: I’m trying to think, I think it was pretty early on that became came upon that stuff. I guess it was a I want to say like March, April, something like that.

Henry: OK, so after, after it had hit.

Fred: Yeah, it was, it was, it was afterwards. And if we were I guess they were trying to look for something that would be some kind of a good answer. So they, it took some time to find it, but don't call me on it. Don’t quote me on it but I want to say, I believe it was around March or April.

Henry: OK, so is there anything that you wish that your employer had done differently?

Fred: No, I mean I mean, they were pretty thorough and or I mean, at least thorough as they could be. some things seemed like they didn't really make sense. But I guess at the end of the day, it's kind of just like, well, you know, no one really has a perfect answer. So this is the best thing that we could do.

Henry: And what about you personally as an individual.

Fred: About as far as I what.

Henry: In doing things differently. In, you know, the January to March period.

Fred: Oh, I definitely cleaned my stuff a whole lot more. You know, I bring like a I bring a bag of stuff in and now from the job, we also carry around another bag that has all these different masks inside. So I bring a lot of stuff in. So it's important for me to keep that stuff sanitary before I bring it home, because I'm not trying to you know, I'm not trying to end up in court because I'm not trying to lose my job.

You know, I don't want somebody, you know, ended up sick, basically, because of something stupid I did. So I definitely sanitize more. I wipe down my boots more than than I ever did before. Even my car I wipe down the steering wheel a whole lot more than I used to. So I just tried to I guess I brought those kind of ideas back home with me.

As far as like keeping everything super sanitary.

Henry: So I have a few wrap up questions. So what would you like to tell me about the way you were feeling in this January? To March period?

Fred: I guess I guess you as like a layperson who may not be involved in EMS, even though I know you were but I'm saying like, I guess figuratively so. Yeah. So I guess just it's not something I don't think you should be taking it lightly as far as like conversations now where it's like mask mandates or not. I would say look, the mask help.

If you want to wear one, please do. Most people in the country right now, I believe are vaccinated. So the cases are I think I'm pretty sure the less now than they were, at least at the beginning. Hospitals are being you know, they're they're being packed no matter what. And it seems like we just don't have the resources to handle everything.

But I would say, listen, man, if you want to wear masks where one I would say you can't really tell other people what to do as far as medical interventions are concerned. I would say do whatever you can yourself to keep yourself safe.

Henry: Right. But it's over- the you have your position on what you should do to keep yourself safe, right?

Fred: Sure.

Henry: And you realized that this was going to be a big deal pretty early.

Fred: Yeah.

Henry: So how did you arrive at that conclusion?

Fred: Oh, so so my position at the beginning as far as now, that's what you're saying.

Henry: Not not from here to now. Just tell me about how it was.

Fred: I mean, it was not it was it was really crazy. It was something that I'd never experienced before. You know, this isn't the first time that we've had that contagious thing going around, right? I mean, we have we have so many things that are contagious and how we're dealing with it. Now, as far as COVID, I guess it's just because it was something new and something to be feared, and media and political parties, we lit a fire under it to to really have this this response of like we really need to take care of this thing.

And I find it to be odd because like so many things, so many things that we know are contagious and really has a pretty high mortality rate. But I don't know, I guess I like I said before, I think it's something that that you shouldn't take lightly, but you should do whatever you can to keep yourself safe.

And as far as my position on being a medical personnel, you can't tell somebody what to do with their body as far as medical interventions, you know, you just you just can't.

Henry: Is there any question that you think I should have asked that I didn't?

Fred: No, I feel like I feel like it was pretty was pretty thorough. I feel like you did a pretty good job.

Henry: Thank you. And anything else you want to tell me?

Fred: I guess not. I guess I guess. Just stay safe, man. Just stay out there and stay safe. Try to knock, not dig your heels in as far as which side you want to take on it because I know it's it's a very political it's a very politically charged question or issue, rather. So I think that you should really, everybody should take a step back and really have an open mind about the new information that's coming out.

And you shouldn't dig your heels in, make a decision, and then just stay with that decision when new information is coming out. I think you should always be open minded to different stuff that's coming in that's reputable and really taken into consideration as far as your health and your family's health. And you shouldn't. I just want people to be open minded.

It's OK to change your opinion on stuff as information comes out. So like me, I was very scared at the beginning, you know, now I see that things have really died down. Like I haven't worn a PAPR since then, you know what I mean? So it's you know, I think it's that people just should be very open minded and they should take care of themselves.

Henry: I mean, it seems like this was a pretty clear goal for you from the beginning.

Fred: Yeah. I mean, you know, the goal is, the goal is to stay safe. It really is regardless of what stance you have or like what God you pray to, man. You just got to stay safe out there and just you just just just have an open mind as far as information is coming out. As far as this virus stuff, it's important to keep an open mind and keep yourself objective and keep yourself looking at the facts.

Henry: A lot of the- there was a lot of new information coming out from January to March.

Fred: Oh, sure. Yeah, sure. There was I mean, Jesus Christ, at the time, I remember being told at work that it seemed like everything that could go wrong with somebody, as far as like stubbing your toe or catching a cough happen to be a symptom of COVID. And it was just like, man, what are we doing? It just seems so crazy.

It just I don't know. I guess I guess they just thought put like this wide open net and we're just trying to catch every single symptom that somebody who had COVID could have been. So it just seemed it was a lot of information coming at you back then and it was hard to decipher what you should be taking into consideration what you didn't need to.

It was very difficult.

Henry: So what what did you do?

Fred: When when we just as far as legality, we just followed whatever the job told us and the job told us. Listen, we can be you know, we don't have to worry about what the symptoms you should be taking lightly and what symptoms you should be taking seriously if you're masking up all the time, if you're cleaning your equipment all the time, so they just tried to they just did try to like I guess just put a big umbrella over all of it and just being like, look, just take care of yourself.

Make sure you clean down your equipment. Make sure you're just trying to keep yourself safe as much as you can. Try to keep your patients stable as much as you can so that you don't have to really worry about, I guess anything else that was going on. As long as long as you're doing the basics, just keep basics.

It's all just being sanitary and safe and like gowning up, we're in the PAPRs, then you should be good.

Henry: One more thing.

So you said I mean, you're pretty active on Facebook, and you said that you realized this was going to be big early on. Did you try and convince anyone?

Fred: Yeah, I did. I was I definitely changed. It's- I definitely changed how I interacted on Facebook a lot. So at the beginning, I felt that it was important to get information out because it was very it was a very popular opinion to be like against it. It seemed like a lot of people were. And some people, you know, a lot of people just seemed to be like, you know, this is something that the politicians should cook up.

It's not something that's that big of a deal. And so from a medical standpoint, I just shared a lot of meme about like about like about I guess I guess the end point being that people should take it more importantly than they were. I remember one, right? I remember I shared to me and it was like it was like a picture of the dinosaurs and a fucking asteroid is coming down.

And it was like something like it was something like the dinosaurs are saying like, oh shit. The economy when like they're fucking dude. So the joke was they're arguing about the economy, but the fucking world is going to end. So like I shared, something like that. But, so, but that was the kind of shit that I would put up, and I probably, I probably shouldn't have, I probably should have been like looked at it more professionally, but the time I like, I just thought it was absurd that people weren't taking it as seriously as they were.

So I don't know, I wouldn't have done that shit now. I fucking- I try to keep my Facebook more professional than I try to.

Henry: I've haven’t posted on Facebook in years.

Fred: I haven't seen you on there ever.

Henry: I only use Instagram now.

Fred: I should probably do that too, move to Instagram. A lot of people have.

Henry: It's the same company. So I mean, they already have you data. Anyway.

Fred: That's a good point. Yeah.

Henry: OK. Yeah, I think that's everything, so I think I’m going to stop recording, unless you have something else to add?

Fred: OK.