Semi-structured interview transcript with Interviewee #4 (Industry: Finance)
Interviewer(s): Interviewer
Interviewee(s): Interviewee D

Interviewer: Hi (participating change leader), thanks again for finding the time and energy to participate in our followup research on change leadership in your organization. This time you get to tell your side of the story, and complement your change recipients’ reported perceptions. Just as last time, all GDPR actions still apply, and this interview is being recorded. The only purpose for this meeting being recorded is the transcript which is required for the qualitative analysis, however neither the video nor the audio of this meeting will ever be publicly displayed, nor will your identity or the identity of your organization be disclosed. If you do not agree to this, please let me know and we will stop the recording and our interview. Other than that, today’s protocol is fairly simple. First, we will go through a round of so-called “quick- draw” questions, which is designed as a warm up exercise. I give you a quick question, and then you answer with one or two words max. After we complete this round, we move onto the actual stories, where I will ask you to recollect a certain incident, and to retell it to us in as much detail as you deem appropriate. I may ask you a followup question, but the general idea is to give you enough space to tell us a story without being interrupted. We are not interested in names, and in case some of these names find their way into our transcript, I’m going to redact them and use a generic term to replace them. If you agree with the aforementioned, let’s get started. If you had to point out one biggest challenge from this organizational change, what would you say that challenge was?

Interviewee D: To convince the colleagues that all of us have to change, somehow.

Interviewer: Okay. And if we do a short exercise in perceiving the whole organizational change experience as a story, who would you say was the protagonist of the story?

Interviewee D: I thought that I was (the protagonist).

Interviewer: Who was the antagonist of the story?

Interviewee D: I as well.

Interviewer: Okay, that's an interesting angle. What would you say was the inciting moment that pushed the protagonist onto the journey? Perhaps some internal or external trigger?

Interviewee D: It was definitely an external trigger. Because the cultural change was initiated from the mother company, on the group level. And I wanted to find out what should be going on. So I wanted to dig deep, deeper.

Interviewer: And what would you say was the biggest conflict in the story?

Interviewee D: In the beginning, the (managing directors) were not included in the process. That was (I think) the biggest conflict.

Interviewer: And what would you say was the genre of the story?

Interviewee D: Of the beginning of the whole story now? Or over the years? Science fiction, I would say, because it's a lot of future talk. It's, it's, it's a lot of science fiction, I would say.

Interviewer: That's an interesting angle. And what would you say was the moral of the story, something that we should take away with us from the story?

Interviewee D: Oh, if you want to make big changes, you have to start with the first small step.

Interviewer: Was there a certain darkened version in this story, you know, when a character that was initially good, turning into a bad guy, or something that was perceived as bad initially, then progressed into being perceived as something good?

Interviewee D: I did not see that... (pondering about the question) That would be a no, I did not observe that.

Interviewer: What would you say was your most frequently used metaphor?

Interviewee D: Big tanker versus sailing ships.

Interviewer: And what would you say was your biggest revelation from this whole journey, this whole organizational change experience?

Interviewee D: That I'm too critical sometimes.

Interviewer: Can you please talk me through an anecdote which would demonstrate how change recipients were behaving before the change was initiated? So before they even knew that things were going to be unfolding in the future.

Interviewee D: It was like everybody working his own little garden and jealously protecting it. So, somehow like that with a little bit sunshine in between, but basically like this...

Interviewer: and what would you say was the awakening moment?

Interviewee D: it was not just one moment announcing the change, but it was step by step preparation and also supporting events, where the colleagues were also included and had to experiment and find out things on their own. So, it was... it was a learning... it was a learning path.

Interviewer: would you say there was a certain way of addressing or expressing this doubt from people when you initially you know, started talking about this change was there a certain you know, expression or a certain dialogue between people resisting were there some themes that were kind of occurring?

Interviewee D: The issue is, I did not get that feedback. Because usually, and that was the culture at that time, negative feedback was not communicated to the (managing director). So, all I got was very filtered diplomatic info. And basically, the resistance was not against the change. It was some, I would say, toxic emotions within the company as such, feelings like nothing can be changed, no one listens, we are underpaid and exploited in something. it was existing dissatisfaction, which we discovered through different service, we measured organizational energy within the company, we measure the culture the yes, all those energies that prevailed in a company from corrosive to energetic to proactive to whatever. And this was, this was measured, and it was found out there's a lot of, on one hand, a lot of well being and they were very comfortable. And on the other side, they were stressed out. So we had to, in order to change things, we had to address those issues. And if there were doubts that there was... (A general) doubt that anything would change at all, a lot of blah, blah, but nothing will happen. That was the... that was the biggest... the biggest challenge.

Interviewer: Was there an individual who was challenging you the most? Or who was the biggest challenge to kind of get on board?

Interviewee D: Those who were identified as a challenge left the company very fast.

Interviewer: So did they leave by their own choice? Or were they let go?

Interviewee D: In our Country, you cannot (fire) people, that easily. So they have to leave on their own (in the majority of cases).

Interviewer: Do you think that if they stayed within the company, they could have been used as an asset maybe turned into a believer from, from a hater?

Interviewee D: I don't believe in that. Because it's, it was really a complete different worldview, or attitude or lifestyle or expectations towards life from them. So what what the company represents, so it wouldn't have worked.

Interviewer: Can you talk me through an anecdote which would demonstrate how these change recipients were behaving? I think we kind of partially addressed this, but I'm, I have a feeling we're kind of missing something here. So formally, there was no resistance being spoken to you. But obviously, there were some behavioral cues that you were able to pick up, right?

Interviewee D: For example, the aim was to start a learning culture. And then the learning formally did not happen on on that level, which was expected. saying there was a lot of courses and online courses provided and learning platforms provided, but the attendance was low. This typeof things...

Interviewer: So like more passive aggressive, right, instead of being directly conflict?

Interviewee D: the daily work was always done. Operations, no problem. It's the add on, which was the challenge the leaving the known paths, and trying out something you're experimenting, to look from a different position to try something else. And this is something you cannot you cannot get your your, because some black and white it's difficult to get the hands on to say: "OK, you're not cooperating".

Interviewer: Was there a certain moment where you saw these attitudes begin to change? What was the moment or this specific incident or specific place in time where you saw, a change in attitude being manifested?

Interviewee D: Some made this change very fast, and are now full... fully adopting this learning, the new way to learn and are reading and listening and being curious. All of the time, it's a way of life for them. But others are, they don't they don't see it. They say: “We don't have the time. I don't have the energy. Small kids, blah, blah, blah.” It's… it's too much you cannot expect from me even to invest more time

Interviewer: in how did you address these type of comments. For example, I don't have time I have to take care of other things... How did you approach this?

Interviewee D: Usually, it's about staying relevant on the labor market. It's not about us. It's not about the team here. It's about how fast things are evolving in five years. Our I don't know accounting department; our legal department will be completely different. And if you do not keep up with changes, there won't be no use for you. Not here, and not anywhere else on the market. So basically, when they say: "Oh, we have to learn so much with the with the company software, with a collector, it's so complicated. And every week comes something new..." That's this hygiene. If you do not know how to work that, if you do not keep up, you are irrelevant. And it's, it's the same with me. And it's the same with them, it's the same on the company level. If the company cannot keep up with the changes... with the fast changes, it will become irrelevant on the market. And so we will be employees as well, regardless of their gender, regardless of their age, regardless of their educational level. And this is basically... it's... it's not just my speech, whenever I talk to them, (uhm) one on one, it's also when I address them as a group. It's also on the weekly meetings with the management team. And you have to repeat this. And then I have two girls supporting me with internal communications. And it's a lot of and written communication on all kinds of topics, but also the learning. And we have a learning platform, we have to actually we have a local (country) one, we have one from the mother company international in English, and also doing other workshops, and anti-stress, whatever. So really taking care of our employees. So they can take care of themselves and their life. It's to hope that you can work for one employer, from the beginning to the end. That's not going to happen anymore. That's let's proceed. I'ts over. And to finish one, education degree, whatever, and hoping to stay in that profession for the rest of your life... That's also over. Regardless whether you're a lawyer or... or IT guy, for that matter, it's even worse, or managing director, you have to become completely irrelevant. That's how I see it. That's how I make sense of the information I get.

Interviewer: It's more about pursuing personal benefit from it right? Instead of focusing on organizational outcomes.

Interviewee D: But also the organization is the same thing. If we do not change as an organization, if we do not adapt, if we do not get things done, then we will become irrelevant. Doesn't matter that we are part of a big international group. Here in (our Country), we are one local entity, which is growing in the past years, of course. And regardless how old you are, you have to try to learn. And I tell everyone who wants to know I'm a living example or living proof. So yeah, and some are cooperating and are very enthusiastic and are grateful. Grateful. And also, in... in within the group HR, we make the changes and competence model not only on paper, but coming to life, identifying talents, and top talent, which is going to promote that was a big issue. How should I explain to my management team that I'm sorry, but you don't have only top talents in your departments, how? And how to communicate that? that the others are not heard?

Interviewer: Did you have a sense of employees being discouraged or some doubts occurring, where things were moving smoothly at first, and then this progression was slowed down?

Interviewee D: Not yet. We have (pauses) the... the only... the only... (slowly) discouraged... Now we, we really work very hard to make our our… our colleagues feel welcome, supported. Listened to (them)... we really try to hear what is going on what is bothering them, how can we help them? And it's also I changed my attitude. And I on the management team, I always asked him: What do you need from me to get this done?” So it's, it's really before that, I only asked how much time do you need to get it done (laughs).

Interviewer: So maybe we can reframe it in a certain way. What would you say was the hardest discussion that you've had with yourself during this change process? So in a way, maybe you were seeing things as moving positively? And then had some doubts about it? What did you talk about with yourself concerning this?

Interviewee D: This is why I said that I am very critical. And most critical to myself. Yes, I got discouraged when things were not moving as fast as I expected, or when people who I observed as... that they can do it, did not deliver. (pauses) But I had to take a step back and say: "Okay, this is your responsibility, you have to start communicating again. And again, and again. And it's not, it's not to here and then it's over. You have to continue... you have to continue trying, you have to take responsibility that they not just hear what you say they have to incorporate what you say. And you have to give them a chance to try harder and to make mistakes regardless." And this was the hardest thing for me to accept that it's not perfect, neither am I neither are they. And then again, you have to I said it five times and you have to say it the sixth time again. Because things are not that simple (pauses). And it's it's, it's a bit sad, but then at the end of the process, they say okay, what do you expect from me? And I was convinced they know what I expect from them. So apparently, I did not do my homework very well if they don't know what I expect.

Interviewer: Would you say, some of the things that you're mentioning now are, in a way a manifestation of this confusion caused by change?

Interviewee D: Well yeah, because even I don't know anything, everything 100%. So there's always a little bit ambiguity. Only I would handle that ambiguity differently than they do. And that's my frustration. So I have to take a step back and say, Okay, it's them. It's not, it's not you cannot not criticize, you cannot measure them with the way I would handle it, or react or whatever. It's, it's not behavior, because behavior is such is okay. It's, it's, it's the way they come back with solutions, or how they look at the our challenges every day, it's the way they look for answers. And sometimes it's as if they do not see the woods because of the trees. Okay, sometimes.

Interviewer: So this one kind of kind of early signs, right? This, this misunderstanding of your expectations... Do you think these were early signs of regression, meaning the return to their previous way of working?

Interviewee D: Well yes, but that's only sometimes is that when I, when I made retrospection, about the last two years, what we accomplished what we did, that was tremendous. That was from before COVID-19, it's unbelievable, huge step forward. But still, we're doing this, we're living this every day, we are in the middle of it, and it's normal. And from this, I think it's where these high expectations and the frustrations come from, because it seems so normal. And this should be this is the status quo, which should be changed. Now, we did a really huge steps forward, we took a leap before COVID-19.

Interviewer: Would you say you had an ally in this stage, regardless of the corona crisis, or maybe some sometimes before maybe after that? Was there an ally present and who was it?

Interviewee D: Oh, yes, I think a lot allies in this. First you have managing directors who push, push or who do things together in regards of support communication, whatever. And also, I, we have this communication team who is perceived also very, very positively from the other colleagues, they like them very much, and they have a good understanding and they know how to approach, how to get to the people to the base, but sometimes they get frustrated too. (laughs) so it's not only my thing (both laugh) I think there is support and also from the management team, I expect support. And I think I get it, at least openly or knowingly, they would not resist (change). (pauses) I trust my, this is a very good thing I have in the management team, I have people I really trust

Interviewer: What would you say was the manifestation of things moving in the desired way? Some signal that this change was successful?

Interviewee D: People wanting to behave in a certain way, cooperating when I see different department heads, working on one problem together, when I see all all the different departments working on one IT problem, and testing together as a team, and trying to find out the box and is it okay, the… the software or not, this is something we did not do in the past and the group together, basically, it's not, as I explained today, okay, we have walls in the office. But we do not have walls, between the departments. There is no silo. And they are able, when they face a problem, to organize, with them, to meet to discuss to resolve it, without me. And this is huge in comparison to… And it's also taking responsibility then for for that as well. Yes, it's, it's sharing knowledge as well. When… when I asked them, if we could have half an hour, after the weekly management meeting, for topics to share our knowledge. Everybody was in and said yes. And I went out I did not want to see the whole thing. So that it would not be personal or perceived as personal, whatever. So but they were all in and this is something very, very positive. Helping each other supporting each other (coughs). When… when someone is in trouble (and they don't let me know), I (try to) get the information so I can help the person regardless. Yes. And this is all what our values are about sharing knowledge, cooperating, communicating and learning as well. And through this striving for excellence, and this is something the IT loves very much. We have workshops organized for idea creation for innovation for improvement. So we incorporated that into our daily business. Not only work, work, work, work, work, (but) also ideas, innovations, sharing knowledge, and having a good times as well.

Interviewer: Two more questions to go, pretty short because I'm trying to be mindful of your time. The first one is, you've mentioned earlier that the way that things were unfolding in your organization: this feedback flow, negative feedback flow was never communicated to managing directors. And I'm curious, has this changed? Or is there no change in this way? Or do people feel more freely to talk to you about things that, you know, aren't working as good, or maybe things that they are not satisfied because of this change?

Interviewee D: Some are, I'd say, taking the courage to come to me. Or some are taking the opportunity to say something to me when I am in conversation with them. But some still don't. And it's not as it's fifty the people within the organization and not everyone is prepared to talk with me. Some are prepared to talk with the others or... (pauses) but basically, I think they understood that I'm not someone Hi, Hi Hi above and unreachable in my deck is over. That's, that's not happening.

Interviewer: And my my final question to you is more of a metaphorical thing. Earlier, you mentioned a metaphor where you depicted the people in your organization as being at the beginning of the stage being gardeners, or taking care of their separate gardens. Has this changed? Do you see it still being manifested in the organization?

Interviewee D: I think it's less because the, because of this home office thing working from home, they became nomads, so to say. (laughs) You take the laptop and you go home. And they still have their their own desks, okay, that's true. But when they are not there, somebody else can sit there and it does not hurt... something like that.

Interviewer: So someone else can water the garden if they're not there (both laugh)

Interviewee D: So it's, it's not it's not just having the own garden. But it's more of like civil a sharing community. It's becoming a sharing community. (both laugh)

Interviewer: That's right. I mean, we're on time I you know, as for the formal part of this interview, we got everything done. We have enough material

Interviewee D: OK, that's great!

Interviewer: to formally concluded so you know, I would like to thank you formally once again, and stop recording the conversation. Have a wonderful rest of the day!

Interviewee D: Bye!