Semi-structured interview transcript with Interviewee #3 (Industry: Publishing)
Interviewer(s): Interviewer
Interviewee(s): Interviewee C

Interviewer: Hi (participating change leader), thanks again for finding the time and energy to participate in our followup research on change leadership in your organization. This time you get to tell your side of the story, and complement your change recipients’ reported perceptions. Just as last time, all GDPR actions still apply, and this interview is being recorded. The only purpose for this meeting being recorded is the transcript which is required for the qualitative analysis, however neither the video nor the audio of this meeting will ever be publicly displayed, nor will your identity or the identity of your organization be disclosed. If you do not agree to this, please let me know and we will stop the recording and our interview. Other than that, today’s protocol is fairly simple. First, we will go through a round of so-called “quick- draw” questions, which is designed as a warm up exercise. I give you a quick question, and then you answer with one or two words max. After we complete this round, we move onto the actual stories, where I will ask you to recollect a certain incident, and to retell it to us in as much detail as you deem appropriate. I may ask you a followup question, but the general idea is to give you enough space to tell us a story without being interrupted. We are not interested in names, and in case some of these names find their way into our transcript, I’m going to redact them and use a generic term to replace them. If you agree with the aforementioned, let’s get started. So, who was what was the biggest challenge during your implementation of this change?

Interviewee C: Right. So first was this introduction of the management board. Second was, let's say, a year ago that we, for the first time had to fire we had we call that "refocus", but in essence, is this lowering the overhead costs. So people, so it was around 17 people. So these are maybe, maybe the latter, you know, this refocus was a bigger challenge. I think it's two different issues. Introducing, introducing, but look I'm not sure what you're after. So we can we can talk about both, if you need something like that. Basically, what we tried to see is, you know, how does the organizational change unfold through the eyes of the change leader... So we kind of force you to recollect incidents for certain elements of the organizational change? Yeah, sure. What was the question again? (laughs)

Interviewer: The question was, what was the biggest challenge during implementation of this change?

Interviewee C: The biggest challenge, not just during implementation, but also later on... Was, was (uhmm..) that (partner) and me were perceived as that we are moving away from the business that we are not one with the people anymore.

Interviewer: okay. And if we observed this organizational change project as a story, who would be the protagonist?

Interviewee C: The protagonist would be just the company, I would say.

Interviewer: who would be the antagonists then?

Interviewee C: That's the hard one (both laugh). So the change on its own would be the antagonist.

Interviewer: Okay. And what inciting moment motivated the protagonist to start the journey?

Interviewee C: So the company or us what, what... (uhmm) what was the point of the change, was that because of the growth, because of the rapid growth, it was not possible to properly communicate with the entire company anymore, so we didn't have stamina or time or knowledge. For that matter, this is why we then decided that you know, we are going to bring in people or upgrade the people who are in the company, so we can (uhmm) delegate the responsibilities.

Interviewer: and what would you say was the biggest conflict during this change?

Interviewee C: The biggest conflict was when we brought the most senior person into the company. So the new guy, because everybody, were afraid of him, because he's quite an alpha male, which means very loud and very believes in, in his views. People were scared that the culture of the company would change. But we, on the other hand, we're hoping that the culture will change. Right? So it was the purpose. But yeah, this was the issue.

Interviewer: And what would you say was the genre of this story? If you can, you know, if you could just frame it, this is a certain genre, which one would it be?

Interviewee C: Um, I don't know... I mean, business in general, it's a drama, but not in a bad sense.

Interviewer: One of the change leaders actually mentioned, it's like a dark comedy. So anything goes (both laugh)

Interviewee C: yeah, yeahy, yeah. It can be. It depends how you perceive it.

Interviewer: Okay. And what would you say was the moral of the story of this drama story?

Interviewee C: That, that you need to push through... So no matter the obstacles, you need to go forward. And it doesn't even (uhmm...) then this is why maybe it's not the romantic story, because it's not about the outcome. It's not about the happy ending, it's just about the, you know, you have to step the step forward, or go to the next step. And there is another step, and there is another step, it's never ending story. So...

Interviewer: okay, and was there a certain darkened version of the story? Because from what I'm hearing, there is this element of you turning into bad guys and things like this? Is there a dark inversion in the story that you kind of identified?

Interviewee C: Dark meaning of negative?

Interviewer: Yeah, when something good turns into something bad or something bad turning into something good at the end of the story?

Interviewee C: I'm not sure if that's bad, but… but let's say (uhm..) with us building the company this way, this hierarchical way, it's inevitable to get into corporate thinking. So basically, with solving one problem, we created ourselves another one (laughs) that we had to solve later on, right? Or, we are still solving, let's say. So maybe, maybe just that... you know, that once you're, and we were very scared of that. So we are, we were expecting this. And we were scared of this. We said: "Why were we waiting so long for introducing a management board or, you know, processes in the company? Because we were scared that we're going to be too rigid, you know, we're not going to be able to move fast, which exactly happened later on.. (laughs) But... But I think it's completely natural that you personally don't have it, then you have it, then you break it up. And then you know,

Interviewer: it's like, from what I'm hearing, it's like a meta overview of the creative process, where you move from the chaos into structure and then into chaos. And then it's structured, it's a never ending thing.

Interviewee C: So… you just have to do it like that.

Interviewer: And was there a certain metaphor that you frequently use? Do you think there is a metaphor for this journey or this experience?

Interviewee C: (ugh...)I don't think so. I, that I don't remember, I think it's going to be soon three years since we introduced the structure. So that's a bit vague...

Interviewer: From this experience, overall, what would you say is the biggest revelation for yourself personally, during this, this, you know, process of leading change and all of the challenges that arise from it?

Interviewee C: I mean, my… my only, my only revelation, but I'm not sure if that's a revelation is... everything needs… needs time in business. So I realized, although we are not very patient, and we're trying to push all the time, but only if you combine this with patience, you can get you can get somewhere. So you shouldn't be too nervous when things are not happening as fast as you wish, because they're never happening as fast as you wish. And that's it (laughs). So time… Time heals...

Interviewer: What I would kindly ask of you next, is to recollect a little bit of what did this situation look like before the change started to unfold? You know, how did these things unfold before the change started?

Interviewee C: Look, the… The change started already when we were (around) 20 people let's say. And this started as (partner) and me were the only guys who were within the company, who were doing the product. So we had outsource people at that point for products, not in house. And the first thing was when (partner) told me that I remember: "Look, I need you to take over some… some products, because I cannot hold them all, you know, I cannot be a project lead for all of them." And so I did it. Although I had other responsibilities he had as well, but I did it at that point. Then we realized, okay, because we are doing this, we don't cover the production or the print house as well. So, we start to build up team leads, this were not managers, we're just like, the most senior, let's say, from that point, you know, knowledgeable people from the company, who we could trust that they will, you know, make sure that everything's standing right, in coordination with us. That was... that was maybe even longer three and a half years ago, after that, we started to grow rapidly. And when then we moved into the bigger offices. So this this was needed. So this bigger environment was needed in order to start also building people. Because before we were in one room, everybody in one room everybody doing all the stuff, right?

Interviewer: So like a startup culture thing, right?

Interviewee C: Yeah, very, very much and everybody doing everything, basically, I was still doing the PDFs, checking (quality), writing to customers, you know, maybe not as much as before, but I would still have conversations with, with employees... I would hire them, I would fire them and (partner) as well for his part, right? So first, we moved, then we upgraded few of our people, which half of them we succeeded mediocrely. So-So and we'd have to… we didn't succeed... And that other half was then: "okay, let's bring some professionals from the outside, who were leaving, for example, big teams". For example, we had customer care, lead, who was not able to manage 50 people. You know, this was really a lot. And even now, like even nowadays, 50 people is a lot to lead. So we, so we brought in a professional, whose goal was, don't grow the team, figure out how you can do it without growing the team (laughs). So first, for the first year, we were still extremely growing the team, but then we started to, you know, the scale, either with technology, you know, with approach either, you know, a lot of things. So, yeah, it took, you know, from this first phase, it took more than a year, you know, into really a big change into then saying: "Okay, now we have people. And now we're going to introduce the weekly meetings, and this weekly meeting is going to be the one who's going to dictate the company". You know, he is, everything is gonna go into one, one hour per week. But this was just an introduction. Right.

Interviewer: Okay. Yeah, could you please share some insight in how people were expressing their resistance to change was there like a strong reaction? Or was it more like passive aggressive with this?

Interviewee C: It was more of a, it was more of a passive aggressive, more aiming towards not being satisfied, because they're not working directly with me to me. And that happens, not just that, that happens, every time you introduce change, each time you decide that you're going to restructure a company little bit. I even failed, and I'm still in the failing phase on some levels in the company, where I couldn't put a manager to oversee a certain part of the company. Also, because of the feedback of you know, of people who had to accept the change, because they just didn't accept it. They said: "it's not good enough, we're not going to work like that". And I'm still working directly with them. Which is maybe currently ideal, but in general will not be ideal.

Interviewer: So it's like a learning curve still ongoing. Right?

Interviewee C: Yeah. And I think that's going to happen all the time. I don't think we... I don't think the trust exists in a in a level that, if I proved you once that the change is good, that you're going to believe in me every time that I'm saying the change is coming, right. I think every time you need to reestablish why this is good. So you're not seen as A great smart dictator who, you know, knows his way. And we all trust you. So it's always a struggle.

Interviewer: Could you recall the way that you've communicated this change to the people? How did you announce it? Was it like a formal thing or like an informal thing?

Interviewee C: I mean, the first team leads that we introduced were pretty poorly announced. Because we are, we are, we were also afraid of the change on two levels. I think. One level was how the main people, the people that we need it, but we thought that we cannot replace at that point, how they will perceive a new leader, and if they're going to be scared off, they're going to just go away, and we're going to have a problem. So you need to understand also, we were bad managers, very bad managers at the beginning, right. So we were afraid of this, of losing people at that point. So we didn't introduce properly the new team leads. The second was we... because we were not experienced enough, we didn't actually believe that this new people coming from outside into the company will actually do their job well, right? So we didn't know whether to trust them or not (laughs). So it was very tricky beginnings. And this is why we very low scale, introduce them in all right. For example, (ugh...), we would still say, I will still say that I'm still responsible for firing or hiring the person, and there will still negotiate with me the salary, which is completely wrong, right, you take away all the responsibility from the person. But yeah (laughs)... but later on, we were doing it, in my view, the way I perceive the world, this is very Gestapo way to do it. But in general, what I see is that people appreciate this type of weight. And what I what I say about Gustavo is we were very direct, so this person is responsible for this, they're going to do this, you're going to be under this person, you need to respect it with the decisions, you know, very much hard data when they start, and then later on, we figure out the, you know, in between. So we just changed the, the perspective, we would still fail every now and then when we would do the change, we would still be too much hush hush. Because that's, I think it's just the human nature in us. But yeah, at least now we know what's the proper way. And when we fail, at least we say, Ah, I knew that, you know, that was wrong.

Interviewer: Could you recall who was the loudest in terms of expressing resistance and how did you address this resistance? Was there a certain you know; we'll let's call it like a rebellion lead or something like that?

Interviewee C: (Whoh..) in this case, in another case, we had we had a very loud employee. The refocus but that's much recently so I remember that now. I mean, later on, when we had this refocus, yes, we had a very strong, I'm not sure why I would need to consider why... Why were there so strong opinions. Look the but usually about the change. And maybe even with this with this management, I can I can connect this to dismantle what was the loudest problem. People were no, we were running the company. Just, we communicated only hearts and flowers, and everything was nice, and everything was great. And "we cannot do it without you. And now you are the strongest link". And so it's like you would when you would teach a child, you would just tell him you're the best, but you would never tell him you're doing this wrong. And the which exactly what we were doing for for three for three years. We were doing that right? Maybe not on the on the higher level, but but to the all the employees, we were doing it like that. So when introducing this management board, we started to build up this right? Even when we were doing the structure you... even if you wouldn't say it out loud, you would show to certain people, you are not good enough to fit this group, right? You are not performing well enough, or we don't see you as a manager or... I don't know... So I would say that was the biggest pain. At that point, we the only let's say a person who would who would push negatively this was a designer, (who) was honestly also a person that we were the least satisfied with. But we didn't know how to handle that person. Right? We didn't know that we should fire him (laughs). But we would just try to manage that. And later on. I think in the next year and a half we anyway fired the person. And I usually I think the loudest are those who you are at least satisfied with. (ugh...) But it's not directly connected. I think it's connected just because you're unsatisfied with you don't communicate properly with them. So something's goes missing in the communication. So then they are not satisfied with you. Okay, and then when you try to introduce the change, they're even more untrusting. Right? So it's

Interviewer: like a feedback loop. Right?

Interviewee C: Yeah. So I'm not sure who… who’s the first fault is in that case, probably also, the manager is because he didn't decide on time, either to build that person either to fire that person. But yeah, that's that level of... First is I'm not satisfied with you that it's, I don't trust you. And then it's again, I'm not satisfied with you. So yes, we did have these cases in all the changes, but usually, usually, (laughs) which is funny enough, usually, that's only one person. Okay, oh, if you could know, if you could know, when you when you start to change who that person is going to be... So if you could predict, because it's always going to be one and only one. You could work with that person more and prevent, you know, bad mood in the process. When we brought, we brought HR when we were already 100 people... students, employees, experts, everything right? Before that, everything (partner)and me were doing the same and about the same time. So, soon after we brought the HR and people embraced the HR because they said: "Okay, finally, we have somebody to talk to". We also introduced this, we call general weekly, so group of managers. But the that was kind of embraced, the HR was included in all of these decisions, but then later on when we realize that we are not doing HR the way we imagined and that it's not worth that HR is included in this group of people (uhm...) and again, this was the same problem not satisfied with the person and they don't trust you (and so on). And then then the problems occurred again. So in the entire process of introducing these managers, this was not that we had only one, one trouble, right? First is just initial, okay, the culture will change, then people are satisfied, then things are not going the way as we planned. We change the things or we introduce small changes, but maybe the impact it has, it's even bigger.

So the unsatisfaction is even bigger than when introducing a big change, right? Because we did restructure, we didn't do these management meetings. We didn't do them well, for a year. And we didn't achieve what we wanted to achieve. There was no structure. I didn't run the company with visionary style in the sense of, you know, to Apple, Steve Jobs would always come and talk to everyone. And he would say stuff, and then he would disappear and do his own thing, right? So we never had floor meetings, why we never had floor meetings? because I was not comfortable yet, for the first two years, I would say, with… with how the company is structured. Now only, I think only lately, now, it's not really a long time, I am comfortable to say, I have no issues talking to everyone, because I am not weighted with… with the words I say, with the style I'm using. Because I know that I have managers there who are going to explain this, you know, more in depth more in a style that suits particular people in the company, right. And before that, before we build it up this so before the change was entirely implemented. I just could not do that. Because I was too much weighted: "Yeah, but that one's going to meet thing that so you know, maybe he's going to leave or whatever, you know, if they are going to give me (a rough time), things will change". You know, today, I'm saying one thing, and in a week, maybe I'm going to change my decision. And, you know, these were the obstacles that I don't see anymore. Because this is working. Right?

Interviewer: Do you have an anecdote to share with us regarding this feeling of regression within the organization during this change, where you saw evidence of people returning to their old way of thinking and working?

Interviewee C: Yeah, I'm going to go straight back to this, but just before how we talked to people when, when, when doing the first change, was, we had to have a discussion one on one with almost each of them. So first, there was you're moving away from us, then when we saw that we literally took a week, or 14 days, let's say as far as I remember, at that point, to talk to everybody to in person, explain them why we are doing this and why this is going to be better. And still to this day, I think when we have big change even during the pandemic, during I don't know, everything? you know, even that refocus when we had, it was not good enough just to have meetings with managers, you know, one meeting the big one, explain them this, but I (also) had to repeat the same stuff over and over (again), over Skype calls that took hours and hours literally saying like a you know, a poem you know, like, by heart everything the same (laughs). I was the fifth person I would say everything on the autopilot already, but it had to be done because otherwise people did not understand this as their, as their story. So the first regression that happened, maybe when we introduced I have one anecdote, which is not mine, but I heard it so many times is an example that's already also, almost mine. So (partner) was leading the illustrators before, before we brought the new Manager here, so the… the most senior manager in the company. (takes a short break to recollect thoughts)

He took over, he took over people and started to build middle management actually, you know, team leads. And, of course, this is a hard process, and he went full on. And at some point the person went to (partner) and said, like, you know, she skipped her superior, but went directly to the CEO, basically. And she said: "Look, this is not going to be working, you know, I'm going to burn out, you know, this is this is too much, too much stress too much work too much everything", right? Which in that point, if if this new Manager (hadn't been as) senior as if he was, we would probably fail this endeavor. Because, you know, as a CEO, when you hear "I'm going to burn out immediately", at least how we operate, it's like, (oh no!), you know, we went too far... Like, let's talk, let's figure it out, etc. But, this new Manager, because of his seniority came, came, came to us and said: "Look, guys, you brought me here for a reason. This is not an easy task, you know, from building from juniors to seniors, it's very stressful. And of course, there are going to be, you know, out of their minds, and this is going to happen for the next month, you know, you need to understand that this is the process. And, please, when, if I'm not doing something really, really wrong, don't let people come talk to you directly. But please just send them to me, I'm going to make it smooth. And you know, I'm going to figure it out. Right? It's my responsibility to figure it out." And because we trusted that, that, that point him, right, because he explained very thoroughly how this is being done. We succeeded and actually build up the manager who was not burned out or was not stressed anymore. Just, you know, they had to go over that phase. But yeah, this is how it shows usually, you know, they say: "Yes, I get the structure", but then they just start going over that structure. And it's the same for all processes. Even if you're, it's not a big change, even if you just set up a process for releasing a product, right? We are constantly battling, they're constantly that means that when there is a big issue, it's very, it's fairly easy to fix. And there's a big issue, we sit together, we do the priorities, everything's perfect. You know, everybody understands, we just go with the plan. But always after two, three months, things will derail so much that again, a big issue will occur. And then you again have to sit down. So we still didn't figure out how to create processes that are running smoothly on the long term. So we are not there yet. I'm not even sure if that's possible. You know, we always have to do it.

Interviewer: Yeah, like, like a never ending loop. It's just one of those things, you know, the, the growing pains of a scaleup.

Interviewee C: Yeah, look, we were even we were hiring different people in different stages of the company. So first, as you mentioned, it was like, you know, let just give, give me just the heart (laughs). It's not about even, about the knowledge or about anything, right? just that. And then we started to hire professionals, and after that managers, and after that, professionals again... But in terms of the culture, you're always looking for that heart, you know, I'm I'm always looking for that part. So maybe it's not the first KPI, but even when you are hiring a professional you're looking for that so

Interviewer: Like a cultural fit right?

Interviewee C: Yeah, it would all be just... You know, you cannot always hire just managers, people who manage and nothing's gonna be done. And even the company is not always going you know, just up. So in between when it's going down, you know, we really need to teach people to... You know, we have to work not manage! (forget about) management, we're gonna figure it out when the things break. Right, let's, let's go back to the basics.

Interviewer: Maybe we've touched upon this, but just a little bit more clarification, in terms of reawakening, did you have a sensation that after the regression that you've mentioned, this curve of downward movement kind of shifted its direction and started to move upwards? Did you have a feeling that people were starting to accept change the things were finally moving forward, things were finally you know, getting done?

Interviewee C: No (laughs). In this particular case. But it's not connected to this change. Because you know, how it is with the business, you cannot go with your plan, as imagined, you know, it always changes. So just as when we set up this change, you know, when when we started going, we had to then do the refocus the (change project done) later, which was, which was maybe a bigger crisis for the company and had to be communicated even (more) thoroughly. So we didn't even finish the first one yet and had the happy ending, yet, we have to go into another change, right? It's like now in Europe, from pandemic to war, right? It's, you don't finish up, right. So, in that case, we went from: first we need to introduce this to managers, then we need to persuade managers, we did it one by one. So the same process, then it was the cuts. So it was the big pain. We had the antagonist as well, there, you know, we had a person who, I don't know... what was so deeply unsatisfied and distrusting. She's still in the company, somehow we manage that. But I still don't believe that we managed to solve that bad taste in the mouth completely. And we're still and that's already a year ago now. So more than a year, a lot of things change in between, I still don't think that we fixed that. But after that second big change what it came, and with all distrust, what we were lucky was that the business went extremely up after that. So it was kind of the proof of: "look, if we do the right decisions, this is benefit us all so." So not after the first change. But after the second big change, we got that, you know, the product started to work the market worked. The happiness went up. But I have to say that the culture does change. You know, it's not back to what it was before. It's never that. So it's always the change. And it's always even, even when… when you have a good times... Of course, if they're the same people in the in the company, they still remember the bad times, right? Which is not completely bad. Because next time the change comes (laughs), it's going to be somewhat easier to adapt, maybe not for a person, that particular person, because that might bring some bad memories. Implementation will be easier. So yeah, that's the way it is. But look, we are again, in the middle of the big change. Now. The Facebook that we relied so much on stopped working as it was before. So you know, 20% of the company we moved from, let's do the product, into let's do the marketing. So, again, a big change. Of course, there is a lot of confusion, you cannot explain enough stuff. That's only a hunch, you know? (laughs) This, of course, affects the culture as well affects values as well, because when you're going from change to change, there is a portion percentage of people who will get somehow scared about the job safety. And as a startup, you cannot really address that... you can never say you know... look, we have an because the style that we are doing in our business that's very seasonal, creative, whenever you know, something happens. Good. Then we grab it and we scale fast. But when something solid happens bad, we need a couple of months to figure it out. Right? So you're not maybe a service or or I don't know what kind of business school has a four-year plan. We are not that kind of business. So...

Interviewer: it's more agile, right?

Interviewee C: We have a feeling where we're going to be in four years, but not so strong feeling, that I will literally stand in front of the camera and say, this is where we're going. No, not really. So you know this, for a portion of people, let's say it's half-half in the company, okay, or half of the people, this is exciting. And let's work for it. And we like, small, big or big wins that happen happens now. And the half of them is, I would really like to see the long term safety here. And it's not just he's just not part of the discussion with us.

Interviewer: And it just to quickly, kind of check up on what you were mentioning, with the biggest antagonists that you have right now. Based on your experience, so far, in your impression of this individual, do you feel that a "turned antagonists" can be your best protagonist for future change? Or is it something that is it's more like a liability and something that particular exploring?

Interviewee C: Look, I think it's both if you I mean, I think there is less chance that antagonists... And here, I think the management decisions comes into play now. I think there's way higher chance that this is a liability. And you should get rid of that as soon as possible. But us not being yet. I would say good enough, managers still don't know you still have a lot of excuses and reasons why you're not doing it. Because you have benefits you because the person who's doing well, because he tried to be objective. And just about the subjectivity also had in December, like a big, I think talk... Because I started to be against... I was very... For me before, my purpose was to be objective in business. And I think that's naive (laughs). I think that that's off... And I think it's wrong. Like, literally, I'm in the phase where I know that in management, how you manage people, you need to be as objective as possible. Okay. But in running the business, I believe that you will never reach objectivity. And you might just as well be as subjective as it suits the business. So just to answer your question, I think you you can create a protagonist from (an) antagonist... It's definitely possible, it's just, how much time are you willing to invest into that? And how much not. So at the end, you know, this is why I'm saying that it's higher chance that you get rid of the antagonist. Because it's, it's faster, it's freeze ups your time, you know, your focus,

Interviewer: At the end of our interview, I'm wondering if you could talk us through how you identified people accept the change, what were the most visible signs of change being accepted in the organization? Maybe some examples that signal that the transformation was completed to you.

Interviewee C: Yeah. Not everywhere this happened. But in terms of anecdotes, it's just a recent one, when where I've seen this.. (uhm...) So, when our Manager got into the company as senior as a loud person, as somebody people were scared off, right? scared off not as a person but scared off that he's going to change the culture. You could see now after, after a year and a half -two, how they perceive that person and everybody who, so people who he manages, they love him. See, you know, and you see that, that, that, that love from the jokes, the respect. It's not that they're, they're scared of him and respect him, but they love him and respect him. This means they're able to make jokes out of him. You know, they they see the flaws.

Interviewer: Yeah, like friendly banter, right?

Interviewee C: Yes. There's a lot of that, but there's also a lot of respect. So. So this is where, where, for me, it was okay. Obviously, we did this right. But it took time, you know. And, and that anecdote pushed me to continue that work. Because we are not as nearly finished, you know, it's not every everywhere in the company that we achieve the same revelation or you know, that we are done with the story. So, where we did a bad transformation, we still have probably a year to work on.

Interviewer: That's interesting, thank you for sharing the story of change within your organization! Being mindful of our time, I wouldn't like to jeopardize our super pleasant conversation on on not a super pleasant topic with additional questions (both laugh)

Interviewee C: Thanks. Okay. Good luck with your… with you finishing this, right?

Interviewer: Yeah, it's in the final stages. Oh, well, above the 70% (both laugh)

Interviewee C: 70%, then it's done! (both laugh).

Interviewer: Thanks again and wish you a pleasant rest of the day!

Interviewee C: Bye!