Interviewer(s): Timothy Price
Interviewee(s): Participant 11

Timothy Price: Alright, so the first thing we'll start with is just a consent process. I'm going to read you a series of statements and I'll just ask you to say yes or no to each one. Its a little bit repetitive towards the end. My apologies. I confirm that I have read the information sheet for this study. I've had the opportunity to consider the information to ask questions and have had these questions answered satisfactorily.

Participant 11: Yeah.

Timothy Price: I understand that my participation is voluntary, and that I am free to withdraw it anytime without giving any reason. I also understand that I can decline to answer any questions during the interview. Yeah.

Participant 11: Yeah.

Timothy Price: I understand that information collected during my interview may be looked at by other researchers from Newcastle University are working on or assisting with the study I give permission for these individuals to have access to this information.

Participant 11: Yeah.

Timothy Price: I understand that information collected during my interview may be shared by other-- may be shared with other researchers for use in future research or teaching purposes that the data will be thoroughly anonymized first

Participant 11: Yeah

Timothy Price: I understand that the interview will be audio video recorded typed out and that all of my identifying personal details will be removed.

Participant 11: Yes

Timothy Price: Understand that direct quotations may be taken from what I say and used in research and publications, but that I will not be identifiable from these quotations.

Participant 11: Yeah.

Timothy Price: I agree to take part in this study.

Participant 11: Yes

Timothy Price: Yeah, excellent. And if you'd like to receive a copy of the research findings, I can send you those once the study is complete, you can either tell me that now, or if you decide you want to see those later. You can email me,

Participant 11: Yeah, no keep me in the loop, that would be pretty good to know. Yeah.

Timothy Price: Yeah, absolutely. So this study will be finished towards the end of August. So that's when you can expect to get that. And the last thing is if you'd like to receive a hard copy of all the study documents I can mail those to you.

Participant 11: No, that's fine. Don't worry.

Timothy Price: Okay. All right, so that's that out of the way we can sort of dive into some other questions here. So my first couple of questions just to help get to know you and your child, a little better and to help me understand what you know about the flu. So you have two children, is that, right?

Participant 11: Yeah, two. That's right.

Timothy Price: Yeah, yeah. And how old are they?

Participant 11: So one has just turned nine and the youngest, [Younger Child], is three, but she will be four in September.

Timothy Price: Great, and are they both girls?

Participant 11: Yeah, they are, yeah.

Timothy Price: And how are they doing with lockdown?

Participant 11: They are interesting with lock down. Surviving there's lots of pictures that get put up behind me and requests for things. But, um, yeah. They're, they're okay to be honest, its one of those joys. [Participant is speaking to her child]

I'm less okay. They may have regressed about a year, but. [laughter]

Timothy Price: Who hasn't at this point? I think, I think children are regressing and adults are aging faster than normal.

Participant 11: Yeah, yeah. Im certainly greyer than I was.

Timothy Price: So has your, your youngest, youngest was named [Younger Child]?

Participant 11: [Younger Child], yeah.

Timothy Price: Yeah. Has she, had, before this year had she started school yet?

Participant 11: So she was in school nursery, so not reception yet, because she's September so she's going to be the oldest. So she's kind of got early entry into nursery and then she officially starts in September. So in a school, but not in school yet.

Timothy Price: Yeah, that makes sense. Has she started back at nursery yet or is she still at home?

Participant 11: No, no. Our school decided that they couldn't keep them apart so they decided they weren't going to open the nursery.

Timothy Price: Yeah, it's too bad.

Participant 11: Yeah. I tried begging, crying, nothing would work. [laughter]

Timothy Price: Yeah, it's gotta be hard for the kids to just because that you know the social aspect is so important for kids their age.

Participant 11: Yeah, I mean, neither of them are missing the schoolwork side of it, but they're missing their friends. Yeah.

Timothy Price: Yeah, and just just being able to get out of the house and see some different faces is important for everyone.

Participant 11: Yeah, they're bored of me. [laughter]

Timothy Price: So can you tell me what you know about the flu like when you hear the word flu. What are your first impressions?

Participant 11: Okay, well, I guess I should say that I come from a family of nurses. So I'm one of, my mum is a school nurse. So a lot of my information and things have always come from her. She's my tester for most things. And so with things like the flu vaccine and stuff, she's always kind of gone "oh flu's horrible." You've never, I remember having flu vividly when I was maybe seven or eight. And I remember being really, really sick and having to stay in bed listening to all the kids on the street playing and not been able to go out. So I guess when I think of flu, I think of kind of been stuck in bed really high temperature, aching, and just not being able to do anything. [Participant is speaking to her child]

Sorry, she's just given me a request for a vending machine. [laughter]

Timothy Price: It's worth a shot, she can't have it if she doesn't ask. Um, so you had the flu, when you were a child.

Participant 11: Yeah. Yes, I remember being I remember it being horrible, yeah. I remember having a high temperature. And I remember it being something that meant you couldn't do anything. I kind of will often say, "Oh, I feel a bit fluey" now but really, what I mean is, I've got bad cold. So I do use flu as the word to describe a cold, if that makes sense. Even though I know my head. It's not flu. It's just a bad cold.

Timothy Price: Yeah, can you tell me as far as the differences between flu and cold. What are the kind of differences that you think of?

Participant 11: Um, so I guess in my head. I probably think of flu is being debilitating. So if you've got the flu. It's not that you're just being a bit lazy and facny a day in bed, you physically can't get out of bed. You can't concentrate on work. Whereas if you've got cold, you can have a bad cold, but you can still do things, like you can go out. I mean, I guess. Nowadays, maybe we shouldn't be going out. You can go out. You can do things. You still feel horrible. You can feel really crap with a cold, but it's just not the same debilitating level as a flu, I think.

Timothy Price: Yeah, so, so the flu is, do you think there are differences in symptoms or is it just in severity?

Participant 11: Um, I think there were some differences in symptoms. So in my head, the flu, to me, is more of a high temperature achey limbs, plus the symptoms of a cold and then like sore throats and things. So I think it's probably some of that. It's like a high severity of some plus others, if that makes sense.

Timothy Price: Yeah, no. That makes sense to me. So if one of your children was coming down with flu is that, you know, what would the, what would be the thing that tips you off that they were getting flu, as opposed to a cold?

Participant 11: I think probably being slightly more lethargic than normal. Or if I give them some, so they have a cold, and they sometimes when they first start nursery they kind of you feel like they've got cold every day or something. And so kind of feel like with a cold, I know they tend to get a snotty nose, they might have a bit of a cough. They occasionally have a temperature but a temperature is not something I would expect to hang around for too long with a cold, maybe kind of few hours, give them some medicine and if they recover from the medicine, then I'd assume thats a cold. If they have a temperature that's lasting and I'm giving the medicine and it works for a bit, but then it comes back then I would think that's something.

Timothy Price: That's when you start to think that it's flu?

Participant 11: Yeah.

Timothy Price: Yeah, so if you knew, you know, obviously nobody wants their children to get sick but if you knew that one of your children was going to come down with the flu. Is that something that you would be worried about, or is it something that you're more like "well you know kids get sick. It's not the end of the world"?

Participant 11: So I'd be concerned more that it would be something unpleasant for them to go through. But I don't particularly think either of them are, which is probably a big mistake, but I don't particularly think either of them and the sort of kids that would end up in hospital. Like they don't have any of the underlying conditions. They both have had lots of colds and things and recover quite quickly. So I guess I, when I go a bit like my grandma and say they both got good constitutions. So I wouldn't be too worried even though I know that flu can be serious for kids I feel like they're out the danger age. If, if they were baby so if we're talking when like [Younger Child] was, say, three, four months old, then I would have worried because I would have felt she's at the age where it actually could cause quite significant problems. But I don't think I find it worrying and that's partly that age and partly that I feel that they deal with illnesses pretty well.

Timothy Price: Yeah. So that's because they're they're generally healthy and they're not, you know, tiny, tiny little infants you feel like they would probably do okay.

Participant 11: Yeah.

Timothy Price: Um, so how long if they had flu, how long would you expect them to be ill for?

Participant 11: I would probably say about a week to 10 days.

Timothy Price: A week to 10 days. And do you, you mentioned that you had flu as a child. Do you know anyone who has a child that has gotten sick with the flu? Like maybe one of your kids' friends or something?

Participant 11: No to be fair I don't actually... I'm just trying to think. No, I mean like, I know older people that have had the flu. Like my mum has the flu, had the flu, and my mum is post chemo so is quite high risk for those things. But children, I've not. I don't think I've heard of a child having food for a long time. If I'm honest.

Timothy Price: Yeah, sure. So when you want to learn more about a sickness, like the flu, whether that's anything from symptoms, to treatment, you know, just anything about a sickness. Where do you go to get that information?

Participant 11: So I use a mixture. I use my mum and dad. Or but I probably, I don't use my mum and dad because their my mum and dad. I use them because I know that they're nurses, so I use them for that. And then I will also Google and but I'm a researcher as well so I try and avoid the crazy Google Sites.I'll kind of stick to things like NHS, are reasonably good, I sometimes use them. Some of the American sites too, is it may Mayo Clinic? I find they can be quite good. So I do that. And I guess with the flu, and this is probably highly wrong, I feel like I know what the symptoms are and I don't google those as much. But if it was a symptom that I hadn't expected to link to the flu, then I would, I would probably speak to my mum first and then maybe Google if I didn't trust my mum's answer.

Timothy Price: Sure. So it sounds like you, you talk to your parents because they're medical professionals and then if you want to do some research on your own, you go to websites that are from like, a you know, sort of a professional health authority like the NHS or Mayo Clinic.

Participant 11: Yeah yeah I try and go to a trusted source because there are a lot of um. Because as a mum, for some reason, it seems to be an automatic thing you do, you join loads of family Facebook groups. And then you see some of the information that people share on there and you kind of want to silently cry and go "no, no, that's wrong!" So I would never go anywhere like that because I just, it's like running out into the street going "I want everyone's opinion on this!" And you've got the crazy mum down the road and you get so and so's. So yeah, I avoid places like that. I would use places like that for sharing, for getting maybe tips on say good medication or like, you know, "has anyone found some medication that your kid will take because mine don't like strawberry flavour" or something like that. So I'd use that, but not the symptoms.

Timothy Price: Yeah, so it's more. It sounds like what you're saying is it's more like, maybe, I don't know if parenting strategies are the right words. It's not exactly a parenting thing. Sort of like coping mechanisms, maybe.

Participant 11: Yeah, yeah.

Timothy Price: Just kind of home treatment options, rather.

Participant 11: Yeah. And again, I'm still wary of that because I've seen people say like "put garlic in your socks" and you're like "no!".

Timothy Price: Yeah. Um, have you ever talked to medical professional, other than the ones in your family, about the flu or have you had no reason to?

Participant 11: I've not really had a reason to I think, oh I did ask because there was a shortage of the flu vaccine. I think the last time that she went to get it, And so I asked about what the difference was between the injection and the nasal thing because I'd been trying to get the flu vaccine for my youngest. Because there'd been a shortage, I was gonna, I was looking at paying for it privately but nobody would do the nasal thing privately. So I asked him, about the injection and whether it was worth giving a three year old an injection because she's reasonably un-bothered by injections. So I'd been asking about the difference between the type of vaccinations, but not actually flu itself really.

Timothy Price: Yeah. So did you was that it can you tell me a little bit about like how that conversation happened. Was that something you like called the GP about?

Participant 11: Yes, so I hadn't had the letter but I knew she was due a flu vaccine and I hadn't had anything from the GP. So I rung up the GP and they said that they had a shortage and so they weren't, they would contact me as soon as they had some medication. I find it very difficult talking to my GP practice because it's like getting blood out of stone sometimes. and you're just like "Well do you have any idea how long it's going to be?" because I was trying to judge whether it was worth just holding out. I could delay could be a month, or whether the delay was going to be so long that we will pass flu season and there was really no, you know, there was no point, getting the injection, should I just go and get it done myself. And being a student, I was been a bit stingy as well because I didn't want to pay for it. So I was like, I was trying to judge it like that. And I find it very, I don't find that I get that good information when you ask questions. I find this is still a very kind of, probably just my just my GP practice, its very paternalistic. It's like "We will get in touch. She'll have it when she gets one. We've got it. There's nothing else you need to think about." So I then rung up other pharmacies locally and so "do you do it privately?. Will you do it privately for child?" And most said no, they wouldn't. I found it very difficult to find anyone that would give it to a three year old.

Timothy Price: Huh, that's interesting.

Participant 11: Yeah, and I found it. I found it interesting, because I thought it would just be an automatic thing that you would just be able to pay for it, get it. I never realized how difficult it was and I never found anyone that would give it to her. And then the vaccine came in. So I managed to go to the GP practice and I tried to have a conversation then but I found I very much didn't get a response. You know it was very "No you won't get that." And that was very, that was the answer. I tend to get, I don't often speak to my GP practice about things because I find them quite difficult to speak to, they don't. It's almost like they feel you're questioning their ability, rather than having a conversation.

Timothy Price: Yeah, so it sounds like what you're saying is, they're very, you know, they're not interested in sort of, you feel like they're not interested in providing like education and helping you understand what's happening and why.

Participant 11: Yeah, I think if you question it. They automatically assume you're an anti-vaxer and get a bit kind of, "oh you know vaccines are compulsary." Like, look at my child's record, they have had, they have vaccines. Everything. You give me something, you show me that it works, and I will give it to them. I am very pro-vaccines but you try and have a conversation with a medical professional and I find they instantly go "Well you must be anti-vaccine. So I'm gonna get my back up a little bit and we're not gonna have an easy conversation.

Timothy Price: So yeah, that's interesting. So it's, it's not a matter of the, you know, just because you're supportive of, you know, having your child vaccinated doesn't mean that you can't have questions. You feel like that there's sort of a disconnect with your GP about that. You feel like they think if you have questions, they're just immediately going to have to argue with you.

Participant 11: Yeah, and I, I often have I am will often ask questions, because as which they will vaccine them, and I give them vaccines for everything, I also don't feel you should blindly follow the medical professionals.

Timothy Price: Yeah, sure.

Participant 11: They're not always right. So, so I think it's good to have questions and to be answered like you're an adult and I often don't feel like you're spoken to like you're an adult. But, I mean, obviously, that's my experience with my GP. I'm not saying that there are not great GPs out there.

Timothy Price: Yeah, absolutely. No, that's, that's really good to know. Thank you for kind of walking me through that. Um, so what do you think the benefits are of having your child get the, for these questions I'm asking specifically about about [Younger Child]. So what do you think the benefits are of having your child get the flu vaccine?

Participant 11: And so I guess it's just you go out and it's cold, you put an extra layer on. I know it's not going to stop her getting the flu, but it will just reduce risk. And I think anything that can make a child needlessly sick. We don't, we're at a point where we don't need to make them needlessly sick so I don't believe given her her having the flu will build her up to be, have a better immune system. I think if we can protect her. Then that's all I'm doing. So I guess I'm just reducing the risk, the same way as I try and reduce risk when they go out on their scooters and make them wear helmets. It's not going to stop her falling off and banging her head, but it will hopefully mean the bang on the head is slightly less. So that's how I see the vaccine really.

Timothy Price: Yeah, that is a that's a really great example. So it's just, you know, even with the understanding that it's not always perfect. And that they can still get the flu, you essentially just say the benefit, you know, any benefit that it offers in terms of protection is significant to you.

Participant 11: Yeah, yeah

Timothy Price: Yeah. And what do you think the downsides are of having your child get the flu vaccine? and downsides don't necessarily mean you know it can include things like adverse reactions but it's also, you know, things like cost, maybe it's difficult to get, you know, kind of any downsides, that you can think of.

Participant 11: So I mean other than last year when I found it difficult to get it. And then I realized that, actually, if you can't get it to the NHS, it's very difficult to get it for a child and any other way. So if there was a shortage again then she would go without it most likely. There was, there's no downside to the actual, I mean once they've got the vaccine, the appointments quick, they come through and thats sorted. Occasionally, it's just a case of rescheduling appointment, because they assume all of us a free to to the whim of their child and don't have employment. It would be nice if they wrote to the father occasionally got him sort out the vaccine. But that's a whole other argument, I won't go down my feminist rant. And then like there's no issue with actually having it they, they've never, neither of them have ever had a particularly, [Younger Child] has never had an issue with having it. It's not uncomfortable, she normally gets a cake afterwards as bribery. So she's quite happy with it. I can't really think of any negatives. I guess the main negative would be that I am very pro the NHS and I'm not used to paying for health things. So if it came to the situation where I'd have to pay for, it based on my current situation, then I'm not sure I could afford to pay for the whole family to be vaccinated. I guess that's the only potential thing. I can see as women issue.

Timothy Price: Yeah, no, that's that seems like a downside, especially with, you know, just having had the experience where you're, you're not confident you'll get it through the NHS. So that makes, that definitely makes sense to me. So if you, this is sort of a similar we talked about this a little bit, but just to make sure I kind of understand correctly. If you want to learn about a vaccine specifically, where do you go to get that information? Is that something similarly, you do online it sounds like [inaudible] GP about.

Participant 11: About. Yeah, so, um, my mum because she's school nurse, she does a lot of vaccines. So any childhood vaccines. I often ask her, and she will send me stuff if I'm unsure about anything. I mean most of the vaccines that they've had have been major vaccines that have been around for a long time. So I've not really had any major concerns or questions that I've needed to ask. So I kind of use her mainly because I know she's pretty good with childhood vaccines and and then I occasionally would yeah I would go online as well. Yeah, they're the main ones. I probably, because I don't expect to get a response now from the GP. I don't always bother now really. If it was something new that maybe I would ask. So like my research is in HPV and head and neck cancer so I know that my oldest one will come up to that in a few years, but I feel comfortable with giving her that because I've got a bit of background knowledge about that even though thats a newer vaccine. If they were to come up with a vaccine for COVID, then I might do a bit more research because I'm a little suspicious about how quick these vaccines have been developed and are coming out. So there I might be a little bit more like "Well, let's just see for a little bit."

Timothy Price: Yeah, to do a little research, maybe wait a bit.

Participant 11: Yeah, but because most of the vaccines they've had have been something that I know has been around for a long time I'm feeling reasonably confident in those.

Timothy Price: Yeah, that makes sense to me. Um, so I just want to make sure I'm kind of understanding correctly, it sounds like a little what's happened is that because you've tried to talk to the GP before and you've not had, you've not felt positive about those experiences it sort of makes it so that going forward, you just don't feel like it's worthwhile or that that's going to be a productive conversation.

Participant 11: No.

Timothy Price: So that's sort've turned you away from talking to the GP about these things.

Participant 11: Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Timothy Price: Yeah, thank you for explaining that to me and helping me understand that. Ah, so again, we've talked a little bit about these next few questions, but it's it's just helpful to me to make sure I'm understanding you clearly. So [Younger Child] was vaccinated. This year, is that right?

Participant 11: Yeah.

Timothy Price: Um, and can you just walk me through the process kind of from start to finish of exactly how getting how getting her vaccinated worked out. So it started with an invitation. Is that right?

Participant 11: So it started with... I am trying to remember whether... I definitely got something through the post and I'm trying to remember whether I got the appointment on that letter as well because I have a feeling... From memory, I got the letter and the appointment time together and and then I rung to reschedule the appointment to a time I could make it. And I think I had about maybe a week or two weeks notice the appointment time and then when I changed it. It was only by a day. So it wasn't that much of a difference. And then it's done by the nurse in our practice so once we got the important time sorted it was just going there. Normally you never go in at the appointment time, so I think we had, we were there for about 40 minutes and went in. She just did, had the nasal spray. So she always gets me to sit with [Younger Child] on my knee and hold her still, although to be fair that's not really needed with [Younger Child], and then she had it had it up the nose and she complained about tickling and then that was pretty much it really.

Timothy Price: Yeah. Um, so was the, was it this past year, you know, and I said this year. I mean, the 2019/2020 flu season. So probably this would have been happening in the fall of 2019.

Participant 11: Yeah.

Timothy Price: Is that, was that, was it this year that you had the difficulty getting the appointment for her for the vaccine?

Participant 11: Yeah, that's why there was the delay in the vaccine. Yeah.

Timothy Price: So when you, when you received the letter and they gave you the the appointment time, was, that was, was that when the delay was? Was the appointment for quite a while in the future?

Participant 11: No, I hadn't received a letter at all. But because my oldest one gets the vaccine through school, and she'd had a letter through school saying, she was due her flu vaccine. And then we had a letter to say that they canceled the flu vaccine day and because they didn't have enough vaccine. That's when I suddenly realized, actually I've not heard anything from the GP about [Younger Child], let me ring, because there's always rumors going around and there was always things on Facebook around "oh no GPs can vaccinate the younger ones they've got priority over the vaccine." So there were all these things. I figured I'd just give the GP a ring and see why we haven't heard anything. So when I the first time I heard anything was when they obviously had the vaccine in and I got the letter with the date on it.

Timothy Price: Okay, so that was it. So you heard about it because the in school program was delayed, rang up the GP and said, you know, "what's going on. Can I get this?" and they said you know, "we'll let you know just kind of wait and see". And after you finally got the letter, it was you were able to do it fairly easily.

Participant 11: Yeah, yeah, very easily. Yeah, I think, I'm sure the appointment with within kind of at least within about 10 days of receiving the letter the appointment was kind of really quickly. And then when I rescheduled it. I think I've been given a Thursday and I rescheduled it to the Friday because that was my day off.

Timothy Price: Can you guess at all. You know, I know. It's such a long time ago. And obviously, a lot has happened since then, can you was, do you have an idea for what month it was that she finally did receive the vaccine?

Participant 11: I try to remember because I remember feeling it was very late and kind of wondering whether it was even worth it. So I'm wondering whether it was November, October ,end of October, early November time, something like that. But to be honest. That is about as wild guess as I could manage. If you hold on, I can look and see if it's on my phone that that will prove me massively wrong on my guess.

Not sure, no. Its not letting me find it. No, sorry.

Timothy Price: No, thats okay.

Participant 11: It's just a wild guess. I remember I felt it was quite late in the season. But then I can't, if I'm brutally honest, I'm not entirely sure what the flu season is I kind of have it in my head has been winter. So I'm not entirely sure when they would finish, given the vaccines anyway.

Timothy Price: Yeah sure know that it's fine. I was mostly just curious to, you know, to get a timeline not a huge deal. Um, so how important was it to you that [Younger Child] be vaccinated this year? Was it, you know you, it sounds like you had mentioned that you were considering going private for the vaccine if you couldn't get it through the NHS. So it seems to me that it was fairly important to you.

Participant 11: Yeah, it was definitely and it felt more important this year because I'd been following the um. So I follow Twitter for work and I've been seeing lots of stuff coming up about how bad the flu season, had been in Australia. And because I know that we often follow the Australian, kind of, we often get the same impact as Australia does. I was more concerned, though, then I would be normally. So I, that was partly what triggered me going, "actually, she has to have it this year because it seems so bad." I know, in the end, actually it turned out not to be as bad as people thought. I guess at the peak of all that, kind of, "it's so bad. We're having a lot more deaths than we normally do, blah, blah, blah." I was like, "well, actually I think we should. I should really make sure she gets it this year." So it was really impacted by that. I guess previous years, I wouldn't have been quite so pushy.

Timothy Price: So you had heard that it was an especially severe flu season. And that was what motivated you to seek out the vaccine and think "this is definitely something we really need". Yeah, um, so I just have a couple other questions just to make sure I understand your thought kind of surrounding vaccination as a whole. So you have mentioned that both of your children have had the childhood vaccinations is that right?

Participant 11: Yes, yeah.

Timothy Price: And can you explain to me how you decided that they would receive those vaccinations, or was it something that felt like a decision at all?

Participant 11: It never really felt like a decision. I remember being in hospital with [Older Child], my first child, and having to sign to say that I was happy for her to have something, I cant even remember what it was. Oh, vitamin K injection, and I remember that. I remember that wasn't really a decision, it was just like, "oh, you have you're vitamin k injection just sign here." And then I remember just giving birth to [Younger Child] and not really thinking, it was just something you did. It was just like, yeah, yeah. And so vaccines or not having childhood vaccines has never been an option for me at all. I've always thought that they that they need to have them. I don't think they need to have homeopathic medicine with a tiny drop a flu in it, that worries me. Um, I guess I just see it and maybe this is silly. But I see it's my duty to protect them in any way I can. Vaccine is a protection and I, I've never seen any evidence that there are the potential outcomes will be worse by having it. So I've always given it to them. And, and I'm the sort of person that doesn't like, I've not given them the vaccine against chicken pox because it's not compulsory in the UK, which I know it is compulsary in other countries, but because it is-- [Participant is speaking to her child]

But because it is compulsory in other countries. I have sometimes considered whether to pay for it, but I guess I've always been, I've never seen a severe, severe case of chicken pox, and I know they are out there. I've never seen it. So that's never triggered my need to give that to them. So I guess I just, it's never felt like a decision. It's always just felt like this is what you do to protect your child. But then when you throw in other things. I'm like, "well, why not protect them about chicken pox?" things like that. And so they my husband's Indian. So they were both, so my oldest automatically got back vaccinated for TB because we lived in London before we moved here and we lived in an area with high TB. So it was an automatic thing. Whereas here, it's not an automatic thing. You only get it if you're considered high risk. [Younger Child] was considered high risk in case family from India came over and carried TN over to us. But I had to fight for that as well because that kept being delayed and put off and I did fight for her to have that. I don't think she's high risk on TB, but I did fight for that so I'm not even sure where my thought mechanisms are because I don't fight for her to have chicken pox, but I fought for for other things but I fought for her to have other things.

Timothy Price: Well, I imagine, you know, if it's not compulsory, I can see how that would make it feel like less of a, you know, less of an incentive. With you know, it seems to me that with the TB vaccine, there was the possibility of getting it on the NHS whereas it seems like for chickenpox your only option would be to go private. That can start to get expensive. That's a pretty significant barrier.

Participant 11: Oh yeah, I mean financially. Yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't justify doing it for one and not the other. Cause obviously, thats like, "which child do I love more" [Laughter]

Timothy Price: That makes sense. And that's a, that's a tough decision. that's actually that's everything I had. So just the way I like to kind of close these us is just, is there anything that you'd like to say about the flu or the flu vaccine or vaccination in general. Just anything that I didn't ask you about that we were hoping that you get the chance to speak to

Participant 11: No, I don't think so. I mean, I guess one of the things I find difficult is we don't open conversations about vaccine. Like we assume that anyone that doesn't get a vaccine isn't doing it because they're a bit stupid. And I don't think we allow people to question so easily. But then I also think we give too much voice to, you know, the Gwyneth Paltrows is of the world. There's no balance, if that makes sense. It's like you either are pro or you're against this. You can't kind of have questions in in the middle. And I think that's sad. And I think if GPs would just allow people to just express their concerns without being judged then perhaps they could help people understand what they're worried about. Because there's so much false information out there that it's understandable people would be worried. It's difficult if you're not health literate. If you're not able to understand health information. How do you make a decision? If you can't have a conversation with someone where you admit to be worried about dead baby cells in the vaccine or something like that.

Timothy Price: Yeah, absolutely. No, that's a really good point. And it's really interesting to think about. I do think that we you know, we have this idea that anybody who doesn't vaccinate their children fully must be 100%, you know, very strong antivax whereas that's really not, you know, that's not the case. People do have questions.

Participant 11: Yeah.

Timothy Price: It's an interesting observation that sort of by neglecting the fact that people can legitimately have questions, we actually might be making it harder for those people to, you know, decide. Might cause people to make a decision in the dark, rather than, you know, kind of being open to them and kind of shining a light on the situation for

Participant 11: Yeah, no 'cause I'm lucky with my history and with my parents in that I can ask them, but not everybody has that. You know, if you don't have the people around you that can help you, then who do you go to?

Timothy Price: Yeah, it's also an interesting observation, because, you know, if you don't feel comfortable asking your GP those questions, you can certainly find someone some "expert" online who's more than happy to talk to you.

Participant 11: Oh my God, yeah. Yeah.

Timothy Price: It's a good point.

Participant 11: And I just think it can be a bit scary sometimes. like, "oh, you get the idea. If you don't really know why do you want to ask about this? vaccine good. Take it. Be grateful. The NHS is giving you for free should be immensely grateful for this without being able to question it." And I just think that's wrong. And I feel that I am, I'm someone that will quite happily question and I will question authority. And I know that I'm quite lucky even I will walk into GP practice. Sometimes I feel like I'm quite that strong willed person and even I will suddenly fulfill the role of being patient and them the great doctor and will walk out and go "No, I wanted to ask about this. I wanted to do this" and not have done it because it's like, I've just all of a sudden I just walk in and fill a role of being the quiet patient

Timothy Price: Yeah, absolutely. There's definitely a very significant feeling at least have a power imbalance between patient and GP and, as you say, even for someone who is confident and kind of knows a bit about that world it can be very hard to overcome. Yeah, thank you. So I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording now unless there's anything else that you want to add.

Participant 11: No, thats alright.