Transcript of interview (Tutor Y)
Interviewer(s): Thy
Interviewee(s): Tutor Y

Tutor Y: Where I taught previously right, if we get students to do drafts and all that, it can get quite laborious for them to rewrite the whole thing again, and again, and again. So the good thing about it being electronic is that of course they can make edits on the spot.

So from the students’ perspective it’s good because it’s not so laborious like it was in the past, where they rewrite everything again and again. And so eventually it would come to a point where they just get super tired of looking at the same introduction- writing the same introduction for the fourth time.

So I think that’s really really good about doing it electronically. For me, the perspective as a teacher is that of course it’s awesome that I don’t have to do a lot for the marking or grammar, I could focus instead more on the content itself.

So my comments to the kids would be more like in terms of content, “what’s lacking here”, and then “what are some areas that you can improve on.” “This is good in terms of your content that you have chosen to write about for this.” I would say that was the big difference for us.

And I think it makes it fun for them to relook at their work again, and be able to just focus on the areas that need improvements.

Thy: Okay, so there are 2 things I wanna ask. One is that when you say you focus on the content, is it during the period of time they are still writing? Or is it after they’ve submitted?

Tutor Y: For me, it’s after they’ve submitted. So while they’re writing, I try not to interject too much. Of course there were some kids who rush through, of course when they rush through, we all know that their quality of work will likely be found lacking in some aspects.

So of course those I will go in and try to...but for most of them at least it’s after class, after they have submitted and of course I’ll insert my comments, and then we reopen during class after I’ve done a debrief with the class on like what are areas that were lacking across the class.

That’s what I do before I return it to them, return their scripts to them so that they can make their edits on the spot.

Thy: Okay, so they are expected to edit. Of course before submission to you they are required to hit the “check” button right? And correct whatever it is?

Tutor Y: Yes.

Thy: So like you say because that’s corrected, you don’t have to focus so much on the grammar, system takes care of it. You will still probably have to weed out some grammar...

Tutor Y: Definitely, I mean for me that’s what I see. So I’ve highlighted to the kids early on, that AI is not...I think humans still need to exercise their judgements in terms to decide what are some of the suggestions that are feasible, and what are some that are not.

To use one example I still remember very clearly, this was not from my Sec 3 class but from my Sec 2 class, where basically- but I think it’s relevant as well because the AI suggest that “you’ve been using these words too frequently, here are some synonyms for you”.

And the Sec 2 kids had to write a diary entry, and there are only so many ways you can describe the word “school” right? So the AI said that “you repeat ‘school’ too many times, here are some synonyms for ‘school’.” So they said educational institution, faculty and all that, and it doesn’t make sense right.

We humans know that context matters a lot, so I think when my kids saw that, whether Sec 2 or Sec 3, they saw that and they were like “Oh but cher, some of the suggestions are quite bad.” And I said “yeah it’s good that you are aware that you don’t have to blindly click ‘accept’ for everything.”

So basically for them, I like that they have that...they try to have that judgement to know when some suggestions are good, some suggestions are not so good. Because as humans, we are aware that look, the AI can tell us “you repeat these many words, these are synonyms that you can use” but it’s nt suitable.

Just like some of the grammar suggestions, we know when to use certain tenses and all that. The AI just assumes that because everything was in past tense, you have to use past tense. But sometimes we do use present tense for certain situations.

So I like it when the kids can exercise that kind of judgement. But I have come to tell them that “look, don’t keep obsessing over the ‘check’ button, because kids being kids, it’s almost kind of like an OCD thing. Like check check check. Write one sentence, check. One sentence, check.

Trying to see the score go up or go down. Then “cher, score go down eh, how come ah?” I try to lead them to why your score might go down even as you write more, because as we all know once you write more, statistically speaking, you’re more likely to make grammatical mistakes.

And as such your score will likely go down if you write more, but its’s fine, don’t obsess with the ‘check’ button. So usually for the kids I tell them, just do one check before you submit, and I’ll give you about a space of 5 to 10 minutes to go and look through, see what’s some proposed changes that you would like to make, in terms of your grammar and all that.

Sorry I mean I know I went a bit off tangent but that’s my approach for how I get them to approach the ‘check’ button. I don’t want them to keep checking every one sentence, check check check. Because apart from the fact that it strains the computer, it also doesn’t make sense for them to do so.

Thy: True. I’m just wondering, this thing about being more critical, not as in criticise, being more critical about the use of AI is something that is a common message of your classes. Because I noticed between you and O’s classes your students tended to raise that more.

Sort of like “ah the system ah! Sometimes nonsense ah!” So when I was listening in, they tend to be more critical, not as in the criticise sense.

Tutor Y: Yes yes understand.

Thy: So this is probably a message that you have raised with them?

Tutor Y: Yeah I mean I’ve technically shared with you my lesson plan, so I actually dedicate one lesson to talking to them about AI, and I showed them the ChatGPT itself, to try to show them how they can use it to enhance their writing.

And I guess maybe that’s why you got that sense from my kids is because I also showed them some of the...because they were using it on a slide before I talked to them, showed them ChatGPT. So they were using it on a slide. So you know when walking around, like I can see some.

And then the moment they see me they quickly minimise it and all that. So I want them to see that it’s not the panacea for everything. Like all your writing problems are not gonna be solved just by writing something in ChatGPT.

You need to smart about the kind of questions you ask and use the material, the stuff that is generated to help you in your writing. And it’s not always gonna be perfect, because I spend...maybe why is it that they have that attitude is because I spend quite a bit of time critiquing, not criticising, the kind of stuff that’s come out of it.

So I mean if it’s a less charitable view of it maybe my kids end up being a bit cynical about it the same way I am. But I just don’t want them to blindly accept it, because I think when we’re using Scribo, we realise that not everything that’s suggested can be taken right away.

So they shouldn’t just blindly “accept accept accept”. Yes, at the start there were some kids who just “accept accept accept”, but then when they read it they actually realised “my piece doesn’t make sense at all, I have no idea what I’m writing here.”

Because when I ask them “what do you mean by this?”, and then they say “I don’t know cher, I just accept accept lah, because I want my score to go up.” But I said that’s not the point right? And teacher can adjust the score at the back end.

I do use that quite a bit because the system just measures language. It doesn’t measure content. So I will adjust the score based on my assessment of their content, relevance to the question and all that.

Thy: How do you adjust the score? So you manually overwrite...?

Tutor Y: You can click...that’s right, manually overwrite the score, like minus how much for content and all that. And the kids, they see that score. So they know that cher has taken away... but of course conversely I add more marks if it’s relevant and the system says that “oh but you have to use your keywords”.

And I find that aspect of Scribo a bit limiting in a sense, because they want them to use these keywords. But the fact of the matter is that if the kids are talking about something that’s relevant to the subject but not using the keywords, it doesn’t mean that their content is not relevant.

It can be very relevant, in fact, so I find that a bit unwieldy, the keyword usage function of Scribo. And the kids get quite upset right, they are like “cher I write!” and it’s true they have written something relevant, but the system docks away 20 marks just because they didn’t use the keywords.

So I think that function still needs work, on Scribo’s part as well. So on my end, what I can do of course is that I look at their content and say “okay actually you’re pretty much on point” right. “I don’t think you deserve the 20 marks docked away for lack of keyword usage.

So I’m gonna add it up to you, maybe add on 10 points for example instead of minus 20.

Thy: So it’s great that you’re telling me this because one of the things I will have to do is look at the quantitative scores, so I need 2 sets of scores to do the pre and the post. So do y’all...all had one that was pre-diagnostic right, that was cold writing?

Tutor Y: Yes, yes.

Thy: Right? So I can use that one, the pre-diagnostic one. Apparently in the next semester, you all are going to have another one, Module 3. I would also need for that to be cold. So in other words Scribo will still give its score, it’s just that the kids will not have their checks to help them improve.

So I will tell C about that. So for that one again, can I ask that you don’t change their scores?

Tutor Y: Understand, understand.

Thy: So that between your class and O’s class there’s common grounds for me to make that gauge. The other thing that I wanted to ask as a follow-up because I pounced on the word “fun”, so it became fun.

Can I understand what were the elements that is not just about clicking and checking, but what were the other elements that were built into this tuition program that made it fun for the kids to learn English?

Tutor Y: I guess I mean I’m trying to see from the kids’ perspectives here. I’m not sure about how O did hers but for mine at least, I try to show bad examples so that they can have a good laugh about it. And then from there, once they know not just it’s bad but why it’s bad and all that, they can then come up with their own.

I mean what I tried to do, especially with the expository, the Module 2, was to show them how to write introductory paragraphs, how to write content paragraphs, then show them good and bad examples. I show the bad ones first, so that they can have a good laugh about it.

Then afterwards they...I’m not sure if that’s what you’re asking, but at least...

Thy: Yeah I mean that’s...can I double check that these bad examples, did that come from the students themselves, or?

Tutor Y: I think from my past experience with students.

Thy: Have you ever pulled out examples from the class itself for discussion?

Tutor Y: Yes. And it’s easier for me because I can just do a screenshot and I can put it up there, but I am very careful that I don’t have any unique identifiers and for me it’s very straightforward. I will pull it out only if at least 2 other students have made the same mistakes or...

Actually it’s quite easy because a lot of them just go google and then some of them will try to lift, and they tend to lift from the same sources. So it’s quite easy, and for me I will only show it if 2 other kids have so no one feels “cher is targeting me” and all that. So I do use real examples from the students.

Thy: Okay. So maybe not use the word “fun”, but to engage them to be involved, instead of that teenagers, that typical Wednesday Addams kind of like...so do you engage them in lessons? What are the elements that you typically put in and is this typical of what you do right now as well, or is it typical of your general approach to teaching English language?

Tutor Y: For me definitely I do see that why the kids get disengaged from their work is because they feel there’s no relevance to them, “I’m only doing it to get good grades” and all that. And my approach has always been what’s the real world implications of what we’re doing for you?

If I’m giving a speech, I’ll show them examples of good speeches, I’ll show them examples of not so good speeches. Because it’s one thing to learn about it the classroom use all, all the good vocab and all that.

But it’s another, I think, when you see that hey, you know sometimes we have to...in a sense I always tell the kids “unlearn what you have learnt”. Some stuff that you were taught when you were younger or maybe some things that sound good on paper don’t necessarily sound good when spoken.

So I think for me my approach has always been “what does this mean to you?” Sure, exams are important and that’s why we’re all here. Beyond that right, how do you use what you apply to real life scenarios?

It’s just like I told them, “you think situational writing is useless right, but I tell you that you already use situational writing literally the moment you picked up your phone.” Because when you text your friends, that is situational writing.

You don’t realise it, you’re not writing an address block or anything, but when you choose to talk to your friends differently from how you talk to your teachers, that is situational writing. And then they say “oh okay okay that makes sense.”

I think that’s when they realise this is why we are doing situational writing class for example. So for me that’s my fundamental approach I would say when it comes to teaching, and I mean I can see it on the kid’s face “oh I’ve been doing situational writing” and all that.

Not sure if this was something highlighted or what, but for me at least this is I would say what really drives my approach when it comes to teaching.

Thy: Can I understand because the CDAC material has been written for y’all right, so you supplement this, you replace them, or you had input in the materials?

Tutor Y: Myself...because I had a part in Sec 2 compre, Sec 3 compre, and if I recall correctly Sec 3 actually the materials that O and I are using, I came up with it.

Thy: Sorry the what?

Tutor Y: The Sec 3 compo writing materials, yeah I was the one who came up with it.

Thy: Ah okay. Because that came across from O, the materials are what is given by CDAC, and then y’all...I guess a way of standardising that everybody does the same. But what you’re telling me is that you come up with bad examples, and so is...is it only you and O teaching or is there more?

Tutor Y: So for me I came up with those “bad examples” myself, like supplement stuff.

Thy: Yeah, so that’s what I needed to understand. So describe the usual approach, let’s say for Module 5, if there’s a Module 5, I know there isn’t one. So would it be accurate to say that what will happen is that y’all will kind of like give the kids...teach what it’s all about, that particular writing genre?

You all will give examples, videos, whatever it is, then immediately the kids will start to write, before submitting they would check, address those, then you would give feedback and then they have to redraft. Is that the typical?

Tutor Y: Some slight differences. So for me I break it down into manageable pieces for them, because if I just tell them to do, I tried that for Module 1, it didn’t go as I planned. So for Module 2, I was definitely a lot more structured about it, there was some lessons I don’t even take laptops out, because there’s just no point.

I spend one entire lesson simply dissecting the question, understanding the requirements of the question, we do a lot of pre-planning, just looking at the relevant videos and all that to activate the schema.

So that would be one. Then after that there’ll be a lesson also maybe focusing on say, writing introductions. One lesson will focus purely on writing introductions, so I’ll give them my own notes, and get them to fill in the blanks, and then I just tell them “okay for Scribo today, just write your introduction.”

Don’t even write your content paragraphs and all, just introduction. Plan, write your introduction and then that’s it. Then afterwards another lesson I’ll talk about content paragraphs, what you look out for, your PEEL paragraphs and yada.

And then afterwards I’ll get them “okay, today you wanna adjust your intro, that’s fine, but don’t spend too long on it. Do your content.” So I also wanna takeaway that...because I told them that look, you can do the check, but the check will tell you that you’re missing the word count and all because I just told you to write introduction.

So I don’t want to...I want to disincentivise them from hitting that “check” button too frequently, but then come to a point where I can say “okay, so now we’re gonna do peer review, I give you 10 minutes to tidy up whatever you wanna do. And you can use the ‘check’ button then,

Then you tidy up what you wanna do before you submit for peer review. And then peer reivew I’ll give them some prompts and all that. So that’s generally how I structure my class. I’m not sure about O, but at least for mine I don’t try to give homework because I know my kids.

They will not do it. We like to say that they can access the system at home, so far there have been 2, I remember Rowan, I can’t remember someone else. But Rowan from my Wednesday class, I don’t think you got to meet him because he was absent that day.

But the Rowan from my Wednesday class, not the Thursday, the Wednesday Rowan, he did submit his own compo in between lessons.

Thy: The one that I met in Jurong right?

Tutor Y: No. Not that one. The Wednesday one, you didn’t get to meet him.

Thy: Oh, so he actually...on his own initiative...the Wednesday...is it spelt the same way or different?

Tutor Y: Different. The Jayden in the Thursday class is different.

Thy: Yeah, okay so he did his own initiative, so I guess what I’m trying to understand and summarise, and so we’ll be looking at the students’ work is that...in assessment lingo nowadays we talk about success criteria.

So by showing your own notes, and all the other examples, good and bad examples, kids are more sensitised to what a successful performance look like, before they go in and write. And in the peer review, when you ask for prompts, I suppose the prompts in themselves is encoding the success criteria.

If your friend didn’t give this...this is important, this is the part of success, so just double checking. The other thing I want to double check before we proceed is that they will be asked to redraft, once they have all of this?

So I’m looking forward to you pulling out some of their reflections, or their work which helps me see any changes. It can be changes for the better, it can be changes for the worse, but something characteristic as it were to help illustrate changes that you have seen in kids.

Tutor Y: Okay. For reflections, I mean I’ve shared with you in the email, initially for the first couple of lessons I missed it, and then C reminded me then I was like “oh ya there’s the reflections.” So for reflections, I actually structure it for the kids a bit.

So I told them I’ll remind y’all this was what we did. Then of course after, from the third or fourth lesson onwards I got them to do it. But usually the kids are struggling to write their own work on Scribo that they barely have time and energy by the end of the lesson to do their reflections.

So at one point I just like “look, your reflections are way too thin, just like one or two cursory sentences” so I structured it for them, and then got them to fill in the blanks. But I still think that their reflections are not really up to standard, so I think this is something I definitely have to work on for...

Really integrate the reflections more into Module 3 onwards. I mean we can look, but the thing is that I’m not sure what we can get from the reflections, as in the content of their reflections. But in terms of their writing, I can definitely flag out a few for us to see.

Thy: Is there a repository for their reflections? Because earlier on you were saying email, they don’t email you right? It’s in a link somewhere?

Tutor Y: It’s in a Google Doc.

Thy: Yeah, never mind. So I would need that, I would get my RA to just go through and see if there’s any changes, don’t worry about that. So I hear you, not as much richness from their reflections, then let’s take a look at their work.

Tutor Y: Their writing, let me see. So anyway the reflections are just these, just to share with you the...I mean I think you have access to these. C told me you have access to the writing reflections. Basically the ones that look like this.

I thought Joy, she actually tried towards the end, once I gave a bit. So she did try to, but I know she’s not involved in the study.

Thy: Who?

Tutor Y: Joy. I think she was last year, but...

Thy: Okay, she opted out so I cannot access.

Tutor Y: Oh you can’t access?

Thy: She’s one of the three who says that...whose parents said no. So I won’t...

Tutor Y: Oh I see I see. But I got them to fill in the reflections even if they-whether they opted in or out. But I thought for hers, I think towards the end, she tried to and it’s quite interesting. But I understand.

Speaking of Jack, Jack’s writing is actually something that I do think that have shown a lot of improvement, I believe you’ve met Jack?

Thy: Jack? That would be...

Tutor Y: The Thursday class.

Thy: Yes, is that the boy with very curly hair?

Tutor Y: No, I...but he’s very quiet.

Thy: There’s Ryan is it?

Tutor Y: Ryan is the Wednesday class, at Redhill.

Thy: Okay. How do you spell his name, Jack?

Tutor Y: This one, Jack.

Thy: Oh yeah the 3 who was in the Jurong class is it?

Tutor Y: Yes. The one that’s part of this year’s study, not last year’s.

Thy: Yeah I met Jack, Jonah, oh no no Jack is the very very quiet one.

Tutor Y: Very quiet, he’s super quiet.

Thy: Yes yes oh my god I can’t get anything out of him.

Tutor Y: Yeah I’m not surprised I did try to warn them about it, but I’m not surprised that you can’t get anything out of...

Thy: He’s so undelighted to be able to see his work! What is your sensing? Was he...has he become more confident? Because face-to-face it does not come across.

Tutor Y: No, definitely not. I mean he’s been with me since the first lesson, some of them join in later ways and all that but I’ve had Jack for the first lesson. He’s always been very quiet and that’s the sense I got.

In terms of his writing he started off quite badly, I think you can trace the history and all that but for Jack, I’m glad to say that he did try, you know. And I think this is a good reflection of how he actually did for his piece. It’s really quite relevant.

Initially, likewise it was quite...huge chunks of it were not very relevant, but then when we talk to him, he will kind of be like “mm mm” then you see him working on it. There are certain kids who are like “yeah yeah I get it” but they don’t actually do so.

So I say Jack is one that maybe you might wanna have a look and see the vast improvement that is made in terms of his writing.

Thy: Okay so his improvement, I hear you, you are affirming his improvement, but while he was at it, all these improvements was that with input from you? Or?

Tutor Y: Input from me as well. So he needed a bit of quiet encouragement, because I remember for him at least, I can double check on the history but I did recall for him at least, the content wasn’t particularly presented very well at the start.

But then I gave him some quiet encouragement aside and all, and then when we did the debrief, looking at some examples from his classmates and all that, that’s when I think you can look through and see that actually it’s pretty relevant. Like about businesses, governments and residents.

You can see it in that kind of prism when it comes to his talking points.

Thy: In his reflections did he say anything about his confidence, let’s say? Or whatever?

Tutor Y: Okay in terms of his reflections, this one I’m not very sure because the reflections right, it’s...I mean he very diligently did according to...you can see this. I think for him, my sense is that he’s someone who is the very quiet kind. He’s not gonna shine in a presentation, but I think he is very diligent I feel.

Thy: Okay. I mean it would be great if like you say he’s quiet, obviously he will be the wallflower, but he gets to gain his confidence. Jayden was the other spectrum, “100% I have improved!” “Have you become more confident?” “Yes!”

Tutor Y: I mean in his defence he’s always been confident, so...the first time he came into my class he very confidently struck up conversation with me. Not like the shy ones who are like “ oh I’m not sure not sure”, so he’s like “you’re my new teacher?” He almost talked to me like I have been his old teacher for very long.

Thy: Yeah, friend-friend kind of thing. For sure he is...Jayden was very confident and he says that he’s improved a lot. So I’m glad if let’s say for Jack as well, hoping to see greater confidence from him moving forward.

Okay so that’s one person, is there any other examples you want to show me which...

Tutor Y: I would like to pull out another one from Wednesday, but before I do so I also thought to highlight Jimmy, I think you had Jimmy last year, and you’re arranging a follow-up because he was missing, I mean he was away?

Thy: Yeah I’m gonna interview him next week.

Tutor Y: Jimmy as well, I thought that he tried to as well, still definitely not there, like not sure why he put “punctuation mark may not require a space before it” I think he kept my comment or something. But other than that, I think in terms of his content, he did try to.

Jimmy, I think since you met him last year, you also know a bit about him and his disposition and all that. So outside he’s a bit bochap bochap “okay lah just like that lor”, but in terms of his writing I thought it also showed drive to improve as well.

Thy: I keep hearing he’s tried to...his drive to improve, so how do you see that from their work? I mean they follow up on your feedback, or they use keywords or whatever?

Tutor Y: There are some kids that they don’t follow up on the feedback, they just click “resolve”, they don’t follow up on it at all. Not necessarily because they don’t want to, but also because they don’t understand. So of course for the kids I try to ask them “do you understand this comment here or not?”

“If you don’t, it’s okay, you can ask me.” Because it’s one thing for us educators to know the feedback, but it also has to be something they can process and they can work on as well. So what I said about Jimmy, I can see the drive to improve because he does try to.

And the good thing about Jimmy is that he wants to act a bit cool in front of everyone else but he will quietly ask me “cher what you mean by this?” So it’s very nice I will say, I mean they are at that age right, “I wanna be cool, I don’t want to seem like I care about what my teacher says a lot.”

But he will be quietly like “Cher what you mean? What you mean?” Then I’ll tell him and then he’ll think about it, I can see he thinks about it. And so that’s why I say for Jimmy there’s a drive there.

Thy: Okay thank you.

Tutor Y: So that’s for the Thursday class, and then for the Wednesday class...

Thy: That’s the Redhill one with...

Tutor Y: Yup the Redhill one. Ruby, Ryan, Ricky and Raymond. So Raymond came to class, I think I shared with you that time Raymond came into class quite late. Ricky is also one that I thought was kinda like the Jimmy of his class.

In a sense that on the surface he also tries to “I don’t care” and behaviour-wise also upsets me a bit sometimes, go off to toilet and then disappears for 10 minutes and all that. I think when it comes to his writing and all that, he also does try to act on the feedback.

He doesn’t dismiss it as I’ve seen some students do, so I think for him as well, it’s one that you can have a look. Ryan, hardworking, struggles a lot, I think initially was around the 40 range or something. Then he pushed himself, worked on the feedback as well.

I think he has quite a lot to catch up on in terms of skill, but I definitely say that he has that drive to wanna succeed.

Thy: Okay.

Tutor Y: Ricky and Ryan, they’re friends as well.

Thy: Yeah. At first they will echo whatever each other says. I ask a question, let’s say Ryan answers, then the other one will say “yeah same.” No no no you don’t get away with-later on I’ll start with you, or give me something more and stuff like that. So it’s obvious that they kawan kawan.

Did they at any point reflect to you they were able to transfer what they’re learning here back to school?

Tutor Y: I would say that no. I think for them they don’t see how an online platform that they can actually use...they are not sure how to transfer that. I have shared with them of course, I have told them “okay look, yes I know you don’t get to spread out your writing over 5 different sessions, you have 50 minutes to do one composition.”

And I made it very clear that I’m not here to tell you that the work you produce in that 50 minutes is gonna be the same as if you have 5 different sessions to work on them. But it’s all about that sensitivity, that you’re more sensitive to certain errors that you may have made.

And so that when you’re writing in the heat of the exam, you know to target this before you write them because you don’t have that much space, you don’t have a lot of time to do self- correction and all that. It’s always about time time time in exams.

So I told them that, but they have not given me any indication that I think they fully appreciate that just yet. I think we as educators we know that “I’m not saying your work is gonna be the same as something that takes 5 lessons of one and a half hours- duration each.

Your work’s not gonna be like that.” But it’s also about building that sensitivity, understand that “I tend to make more tense errors according to Scribo. I need to look out for my tenses the next time.” So I try to make it a bit more manual, so that’s why my debrief is very manual.

I actually have slides prepared, I shared with you just now, screenshots and all that of work. And then I print those out and I get them to write, to annotate along with me. So it’s something they can see, and I think when they revise they look at that.

Otherwise what happens online they’ll think “oh yeah that is nice”, but so far they have given me no indication that they feel that whatever they’ve learn in Scribo itself is transferable to exams.

Thy: Yeah, so what I’m hearing from you is that there’s that combination of- it’s not entirely all online, there’s a bit of handwritten paper and pen kind of thing.

Yeah I don’t let them get away with just typing everything online and all that because it’s easy to get distracted, and I do see that a mix of both hardcopy and softcopy... I hope it’s beneficial for them.

Yeah. Along with Jack there was that Jonah and one more, what’s his name?

Tutor Y: James. But I think recently he changed his name to [redacted] by deed poll so not sure what name you have right there but James...

Thy: No no I think it was his Chinese name, James but he made it clear he prefers the screen, not paper.

Tutor Y: Of course they do.

Thy: Because then they can sneak off, it was Jonah who mentioned something, confidentially I won’t say what it is, but being on screen means that they have accessibility to many other things.

Tutor Y: Okay I mean for that I can share with you that I want them to enjoy writing as well, it’s not just about your exams and all that. I’m not sure if they told you but I told them “if you have something to say, you can do so.” It’s almost like I want them to think of this like a home assignment, and enjoy doing it.

Because if I feel if I simulate exam conditions for them right, it’s gonna be very dry. And kids being kids you know they’ll sneak off, and then they’ll try to do something under...so the funny thing I noticed after talking to them, showing them ChatGPT is that after I show it to them, actually most of them refuse to use it.

Before that they were sneakily using it, they thought I couldn’t see but as teachers we can see right. But once I show it to them, most of them, even the ones who were previously using it refuse to use it. Is it teenagers being recalcitrant or anything and all, I’m not sure.

But the thing is that I told them “look, you can listen to music”, some have very weird coping mechanisms like they prefer to watch a looping Youtube video or something. I told them “look, if it helps you concentrate, it helps you focus...”

And I find that the more I tell them that they can do it, some will not do it, but then they still focus. Then some will do it, and they focus. In the end it’s a win-win for me.

Because you give them the freedom of choice they do it, but I feel like if I stop them and say “no, just focus on your writing, don’t even do anything else”, kids being kids they will do anything else that you tell them to do.

Thy: Yeah, so this element of choice was something that came up during the conversation. Like they don’t wanna be locked in on the same resources. I gather that the resources that’s given here that’s filled in within Scribo are things that you all put in right?

Scribo in and of itself doesn’t offer any resources right? So whatever it is it’s prompt in by you guys. And your classes, more so than O’s seem to kind of like “we prefer to go and find our own thing.” In fact one of them kind of like “huh there’s stuff meh?”

I say “when you get stuck then what do you resort to?” And it seems to come as a surprise to this person that there’s stuff already there that you can go and get and use. And seems to be that they prefer to go and find their own thing, which is a good and bad thing.

Tutor Y: Of course. I prefer my kids to be resourceful. Yes I was the one who came up with the material so I know what materials I gave them in the booklet itself, the one that O and I use for our kids. But I also know that the reality is that next time whatever they do, even when they do their school assignments now,

And especially when they link to what they do for their school assignment, is that you have to be resourceful. It’s not just about copying and pasting. The analogy that I gave across all my classes is that don’t be the monkey that is conditioned to do copy and paste.

Use what evolution has given you to be a bit more critical about what you read. Look for your sources, question if it’s legit or not, and if it is, then adapt it to your own writing. I think that’s for me, I want my kids to have a certain kind of versatility, flexibility.

To be able to be resourceful, to go out and find stuff on their own. I mean I came up with my own materials, I can’t- I vouch for my own materials of course, but the thing is that I also want them to see that “look the book is in book right, but you are the generation that have access to all these resources.”

But you have to use them wisely, because there’s a lot of fake news out there, misinformation, I want you to be able to be very critical of what you read. And so that’s my approach for them. In the end it ties back to what I said about showing them real world relevance of what they’re doing.

That misinformation is out there, even one of them, my Sec 2 kids also shared with me stuff that he had to debunk a couple of days before about heatwave and all that. So I share with them that misinformation is real for us, resources are all there, but not all resources may not be- not the same level as everything else.

So you have to be critical as well. So I think that if you notice that in my kids it’s because I told them that “you can use these resources, but you have to use them wisely.”

Thy: ...not aware of the time, so many other questions but I think I would have to discipline myself. Can I just ask one very quick question, you’re a tutor in CDAC, do you do any 100% online tutoring?

Tutor Y: No.

Thy: So they are all hybrid? It’s a hybrid Sec 2 class and it’s a hybrid Sec 3 class?

Tutor Y: No actually all in-person, I don’t have any hybrid.

Thy: Oh all in-person but okay maybe I shouldn’t use the word “hybrid”. In-person but they make use of Scribo?

Tutor Y: Yes.

Thy: Okay. So I’m gonna sneak in one more question, so do you use Scribo in comprehension?

Tutor Y: No.

Thy: Okay, alright. So 2 questions then, number 1 is more factual, which is if you were to make recommendations as to how this program as it is that you’re teaching, recommendations of improvement, what would they be?

Tutor Y: What’s some improvements that I can recommend to this program? I think it’s a bit hard to say since I came up with the materials, I think I would say it’s important to perhaps use this as a certain...

Okay because I’m also doing Sec 2, Sec 2 I have less of an input because it was devised by Miss Chia. But I also use the same approach, like I use that more as a guide, but I do understand when you say the materials, some may see it more as a guide, some might see it as “everything I lean on,

this is the way that I’m just teaching you.” So I think it would be good if the program can be tweaked a bit to make it clear that this is just what... I’m providing more like guiding questions for you? And it’s a foundation for you.

But it’s also for you to kind of slap on more to make sure that you tailor it according to the needs of your students. Because I’ve been asked to observe a few teachers using Scribo as well in other centres, but only Sec 2s. So O and I are the only ones doing Sec 3.

I see that for some classes they’re going very fast, especially the Express kids, the Sec 2 Express kids they do it really fast. Some struggle a bit, take a bit more time, so if I have to suggest an enhancement, very simply it would be that to give teachers that kind of flexibility.

To really tailor the materials according to the needs and dispositions of the group.

Thy: Okay. I think one of the things that I talked about when I presented the preliminary findings to T, C and all that is the idea of differentiation. I mean even within the class itself, never mind whether it’s Express versus Normal, but even within the class there will be some who are like “okay, go!”

Let me not bore you by restricting you...so the idea of differentiation. Okay so the last one is really a bit more personal, what has been your most memorable experience this whole journey since January? It could be very memorable positively, or it could memorable because negative. So anything?

Tutor Y: I think it’s when I’m really amazed by how kids I taught that are usually very bochap, like really don’t care. I see them really care, I see them care. Of course conversely there were those that eventually got quite bored by the limitations of the system, and they were like “cher it doesn’t make sense I don’t want do already.”

And because it’s on the computer they move in and out of windows and all that. But I think mostly on the whole it’s been quite a heartening experience to see kids who really want to try. The whole gamification really made it such that for them, they wanna see it go up and up.

And when they start asking questions like “why is it that I write more, my score go up...went down?” Then I can share with them and they see “oh that’s why.” And so it’s for me to see kids quietly improve, it’s not the loud ones that you see that have always been confident like our Jayden,

But especially that’s why Jack, I thought that this was the quietly improving...we don’t notice them but I think it’s encouraging, I would say. That’s what is particularly memorable.

Thy: Thank you. I notice that this “in progress” Ruby, she calls herself [redacted].

Tutor Y: [redacted] I think.

Thy: How has she been? Because she’s one who said that “no, Scribo sucks and it doesn’t work for me because my scores have been...” She feels that she was better in English before she embarked on this program. Can I understand your perspective of her progress?

Tutor Y: Sure, Ruby I would say is...actually you don’t realise, very chatty. Particularly chatty. I’m not sure if during the group interview was she so but in class she’s always very chatty and all. But as an English educator I would say that she’s someone who’s overconfident.

So her abilities are not as good as she thinks they are, but she makes up for it with a lot of confidence. So I think that when the system flags out to her that so and so, these errors, I think it also dealt a bit to her confidence?

That’s why when she said that she’s doesn’t feel as good as she...but it’s because I think it kind of brought her down to Earth a bit.

Thy: I see, okay it’s true. I mean when I first went to talk to your class, she was the one who’s asking questions “are you a teacher? Analysis?” and that kind of thing. But during the interview because there were 3 boys, and so she kind of toned down a little bit.

But that was the thing that struck me, she kept insisting that the whole program has made her worse off, so I’m like “Huh? How come?”

Tutor Y: No no like I said my assessment as like looking at her, her work and all that, then we all also did a bit of hardcopy like editing, all those other exercises, for Ruby it’s mostly overconfidence. So for many of the kids they suffer from lack of confidence, but for Ruby it’s the other way round, it’s overconfidence.

So I think the program brought her back down to Earth, that’s why she had that kind of...yup.

Thy: Okay. You just said something, you do paper and pen editing?

Tutor Y: Yes yes. So in between the Scribo lessons we don’t do purely Scribo, so we have worksheets as well.

Thy: Okay. Did you capture their scores across the months in paper and pen editing?

Tutor Y: No, so generally what we do here is that we do self-marking for the kids so they hold on to their booklets and all that.

Thy: Oh so they have a booklet?

Tutor Y: Yes that’s right, assessment book, I mean they have one for editing, they have another for compre, of course on top of the one for compo. So they have 3 booklets.

Thy: Are the booklets with them or at the centre?

Tutor Y: With them.

Thy: If we ask for it in July, actually you all start in June right, last week of June? Is it possible to somehow get a record of their editing marks from the beginning of the year and now?

Tutor Y: If you just want the marks it’s possible. But if you wanna see...because the marks is just upon 10, but I can get them...because at the start there was a supply issue so I used a lot of hardcopy worksheets at the start.

Eventually they got their books, and so I can ask for the books, and if you want me I can record their scores and all. It’s best if I can...

Thy: Yeah, because that’s where the transference is. I don’t know which classes it was that kind of like- for sure they had proof in editing. Used to be 5 marks, but now 7 or 8 marks. I can’t remember who was it.

Tutor Y: Was it mine or O’s?

Thy: Yeah I can’t remember yours or O’s but in any case, it would be good to get the actual quantitative. Because I’m struggling...for me I’m a mixed method person and I totally respect qualitative, I have no issue. But I also know that people out there, sometimes unless it’s the numbers...

Somebody actually sort of like “without numbers you’re just a person with an opinion”. Like “What? Okay never mind.” So I’m struggling to find the quantifiable things that I can do some sort of number crunching, so editing might be one of them.

So I’ll write to C just to mention the thing about Module 3 being cold writing, so don’t allow the kids to...to hopefully to also ask for you to not change their scores. And then I need their editing marks as well. I gather that the editing would be the same for O’s class?

Tutor Y: Yes, we use the same materials.

Thy: That’ll be great. So that will be very helpful. I would need that because as it is right now, each class is small, right now if I combine both it’s about 24 students, which is still decent. 9 here and 12 there is a bit difficult.

Okay alright so thank you so much it’s on the dot at 12, I won’t ask for more of your time, but I ask for your indulgence if I kind of like...just now I should have asked that. I would email you is that alright?

Tutor Y: Yeah sure sure no problem.