Semi-structured interview transcript with Interviewee #10 (Industry: Insurance)
Interviewer(s): Interviewer
Interviewee(s): Interviewee J

Interviewer: Hi (participating change leader), thanks again for finding the time and energy to participate in our followup research on change leadership in your organization. This time you get to tell your side of the story, and complement your change recipients’ reported perceptions. Just as last time, all GDPR actions still apply, and this interview is being recorded. The only purpose for this meeting being recorded is the transcript which is required for the qualitative analysis, however neither the video nor the audio of this meeting will ever be publicly displayed, nor will your identity or the identity of your organization be disclosed. If you do not agree to this, please let me know and we will stop the recording and our interview. Other than that, today’s protocol is fairly simple. First, we will go through a round of so-called “quick- draw” questions, which is designed as a warm up exercise. I give you a quick question, and then you answer with one or two words max. After we complete this round, we move onto the actual stories, where I will ask you to recollect a certain incident, and to retell it to us in as much detail as you deem appropriate. I may ask you a followup question, but the general idea is to give you enough space to tell us a story without being interrupted. We are not interested in names, and in case some of these names find their way into our transcript, I’m going to redact them and use a generic term to replace them. If you agree with the aforementioned, let’s get started. So, first question: what would you say was the biggest challenge in your story?

Interviewee J: Well, the biggest challenge in this story was how to how to wake up, wake up the sleeping, the sleeping, princess, call it the princess. And how to how to motivate it, how to build the self esteem of the princess to put up the to put up better cloths to be more more self confidence, and to go, not only that, she doesn't live only in that golden cage, but she moves that she moves, engages with people with the crowd. And at the end of the day, everybody will acknowledge for beauty and for the possibilities. That's great. Thank you very much for a more detailed elaboration. Who would you say was the protagonist of your story? The protagonists were the managers in the company, the leaders, all of the employees and external, some external stakeholders as the owner of our company.

Interviewer: And who was the antagonist? So like the enemy, the bad guy.

Interviewee J: The bad there was, there was none. One, one existing bad guy, perhaps at the end of the day, the former former CEO of the company who was still employed in the company. He was actually the antagonist of the story.

Interviewer: What would you say was the inciting moment of the story? So what was the trigger that kind of pushed the protagonist into the story?

Interviewee J: At think the trigger the trigger was the that the protagonist realized that they have that they know that they don't have to wait for specific orders to be received and to be implemented. But that they are allowed freely, freely to implement their ideas. Of course, in line... in line with the story of the company or be the line of desired story of the company. It was... (Well) It didn't come at once because... because... because it's sometimes hard for us to obey orders (and) when you are asked to be self confident (or) to be more independent. It's it takes some time, but I think that was that was the better decisions. Okay, we have a lot of potential and we can express that we can express the potential

Interviewer: And and what would you say was the biggest conflict in your story?

Interviewee J: The biggest conflict in the story was or were the relations between between some internal some internal protagonist, the protagonist of the story, they had conflicted interests. And yeah, that had to be sold out.

Interviewer: And what would you say was the moral of the story, a key lesson, something that people should take away?

Interviewee J: We can change. And we can change... we can change dramatically.

Interviewer: Okay, that's great. I have a couple of a couple more of these short (questions). What would you say was the genre of this story?

Interviewee J: I would say the genre or the story is kind of... you know... a fairy tale, you're there to talk... to the... talk to the children with somebody who is an underdog in a certain context of Sleeping Beauty. And yet, that's the end we we do so far happier stories, still not over. But so far, it looks like a fairy tale, which prospects have happened.

Interviewer: That's great. Is there a certain dark inversion in your story that you have recognized, meaning that something that was initially perceived as good turned out to be bad? Or maybe something that was initially perceived but turned out to be good?

Interviewee J: There is one specific element which I perceived, it would be bad, and it turns out extra ordinary good. And yeah, there was short elements of vice versa, sympathetic protagonist, which I thought were good, turned out to be really bad. There were certain stories, of course, of course happened.

Interviewer: I'm interested in learning just a couple, two more of these short ones. The first one is what is the frequently used metaphor that you use during this change?

Interviewee J: I have to think which means there is not a seat there is not a single one. What, in this, what in the narrative... it was always explained that we are what we want to become, or you can... We didn't use a single word or phrase... we... we were using word that we want to be accessible for all the people that we want to be more interesting, more cool. And perceived, not something as exclusive but some something which is, which is approachable and suitable for all external stakeholders, kind of kind of that we are different than a typical financial institution. That was the message it was not the med single metaphor. The message was always like that.

Interviewer: It's okay. Sometimes change leaders have this one metaphor that they always use.

Interviewee J: It's... it's all let's say mission statement, which is, it's loving, it's cooler than in then. Then in English, we add value to to savings, which the interpretation of it is (incomplete). It's like: "Yes, we are managing assets in order, to generate return". But not only that, and this was perhaps most frequently repeated: "We want to offer our clients more", and this slogan or as a solution: "You deserve more", and which is... You deserve more, returns more attention, more transparency, more everything we use that engaging other parts of other parts of the company. And this is something I'm most proud of that no, we're not talking only about... about... you know, how much return did the Generate, but we mostly talk about what are our services to our clients. And we moved from a company which didn't have, you know, social media presence... presence to the company within the group, which is most advanced in the digital marketing and the presence or the presence on social media, which is something the team which is which has worked with this is extremely proud of.

Interviewer: That's really interesting to say, I think it gives us a little bit of light into my my next question, which is, what would you say was the biggest revelation in your story?

Interviewee J: The biggest Revelation... Revelation in the story was really that, I was amazed how certain people became began to change, they were really sleeping... because they didn't have the opportunity to show what they're capable to do. And there are two or three individuals who are super good, they just have to be, they just have to be given the opportunity and push a little bit and they seize the opportunity. There are some who I think are equally talented or more or less, but they they just couldn't operate differently. They are... Perhaps, to use into this (context), let's say sleeping (and needed to be woken up). Like: "Okay, I'll be told what to do". And that occurs. And the greatest revelation was, yes, how, how engaged certain people are, if they are given the opportunity to thrive, to thrive in in... you know, a topic where they're good at, and that's... that's somehow somehow, you know, contagious than other people that other people are following me, me too. I would like to do this. Well, what about us, and the latest, the latest... the latest, you know, novelty or innovation was that we are now having this financial podcast as to my, to my knowledge, the only financial institution in (Country), and it was idea of a guy who would work experience of half a year, and they self organize themselves. And they presented the idea and not just the market in you know, we just do it was a marketing effort and smoking clearly. So that's the things the things I'm most proud proud of. And this, you know, contagious... (I said): "Okay, if it can be done. Okay, let's do it". And without, you know, telling them what to do

Interviewer: Which actually brings us into this anecdote part. Could you please talk us through how things were unfolding before the change happened?

Interviewee J: While the people had mixed feelings about me before that, I was in another position, which was pretty senior I was the CFO of the group. And I guess I was perceived as a threat to them. To a certain extent I was but I was not threat to I was just a threat to how the company was doing business that threat to not threat to, to two people, two people to embrace them said what the perception was relative. And at first thing before the change was happening,...I suffered, tried to connect, to connect to several of them, so that we got to you, we had to get used to each other. And especially thank God, they have to get used to my... my style of working, which is not micromanage to things.... I'm (laughs)... there are a lot of things that I'm not, but I'm most definitely not micromanager and operational type of a guy (both laugh). And the company was vice versa was very operational. And, yeah, we had to... we had to get used to each other. And once we did, once, once they bought that I really want to do to do something more than this thing started doing for a door unfolding.

Interviewer: talk us through how this change was communicated? How did you address these negative reactions?

Interviewee J: The first thing was, it was coincidence... coincidence, that coincidental but nevertheless, it was actually the time when we developed the new strategy. And it was a novel thing, the company that invited all the all the, you know, middle managers to the event, and some other people as well. And I used I used the whole strategy, preparation process to communicate it, what do we what do we want to do, and to engage, to engage people, people into it, so that if they participate, they are more likely to buy to buy the store. So this, this was one, one element, the other one was actually quite interesting. Coincidentally, we were in this process of acquiring another company. And I combined those two processes, already inviting some people from the other from the other cop from the other company to participate in the process in the process itself, and use the whole merger, to call acquisition merger process to formulate the vision of the combined company. And it was a messy process. What we wanted to do, we especially put a lot of emphasis into developing the sales function, and the marketing function (which was) separated before... before that it was... it was in one department that created some tensions between the two (department) heads. But... But once we solved this, actually, then the whole marketing and sales part (was aligned) because individuals realized that they can be more successful (than) on the separate acquisitions. It was... Well it's not a game of power anymore. And we use an external consultant to (help) set this up. And yeah, it was a tremendous amount of work. But I... somehow... somehow the idea was to use this merger to turn the company up completely. If you do it already, then let's put this... let's put this... this combined three elements together, it will be well, even more challenging, but I think at the end of the day, it was worth it because because a lot of a lot of this integration process that technical did the when the team was formed, was no done, even... even on not only on the operational basis, but on the basis of the strategy innovation.

Interviewer: And you said it was kind of a messy process. I'm really curious to see what did you mean by that? Was it more about the reactions of people? Did they manifest some resistance? Was there any doubt things like this?

Interviewee J: Yeah, of course, that there were there were some doubts at the beginning. There were even some, let's say, I wouldn't say active, yeah, in one part active, active opposition, and then we separated the base, of course, this cannot be done cannot be done any other way.

Interviewer: So, just do a quick followup question. Do you believe that people who are naysayers can be turned into your greatest promoters (of change)?

Interviewee J: They can. But one specific individual was actively opposing... Actively pausing and once was... once you have somebody who is actively actively opposing kids and not prepared to change them, yes, yeah, there were a lot of... there were a lot of, let's say... blockers. But at the end of the day, some of them became became drivers of change. And that's really amazing. But unfortunately, unfortunately, unfortunately, in this one particular case, it wasn't possible, there was another case, where the skill sets and the competencies of the director there is simply not adequate enough. Yeah, and mess... mess in terms of... in terms of, you have certain deadlines. In this process, a lot of work during nights. The usual the usual stuff, which we which you have ditched, you have to manage. But at the end of the day, the people were extremely engaged with an extreme that nevertheless, if they if they didn't, like... they didn't like perhaps this... this... this... this... this... this transformation of the company from a cozy place really to a place which is a little bit more messy... with less rules, but still within the boundaries of the financial institutions, it can be it can be messy, and so we have to we have to train the people in terms of managing the... managing the subordinates... the subordinates, we have to train the people in terms of how giving and receiving feedback. And, yes, that ...that was... that was... that was kind of the process, and some people don't really great, but even the people who mostly mostly in the parts of company, which are very, very operational, they don't like they don't like transformation, because I can understand that, because it's a lot of work that I really can understand them. Nevertheless, they were extremely, extremely motivated, that everything is done right and on time. And I always gave them a lot of praise. And because because they thought that's how we communicated with the another strategy preparation process, and on those meetings to the managers, but we have this because of Corona mostly on mostly on teams, employee meeting server or participated, and I always used those meetings to project the story of trailer slamming. And that's how that's how that's how other that's how all the company, all employees have been informed. I hope that some that managers, the respective managers of the departments did their work as well. They were encouraged to do so somebody better some David, that's a good but it's always it's always like that. Yeah.

Interviewer: Could you talk us a little bit more about the signs that people were experimenting with this new knowledge? So kind of trying to apply this new thing, this new way of working this new way of the way your organization is valuing performance? And maybe talk us through what was what were kind of the what will what was the aftermath of this experimentation?

Interviewee J: Those small wins, let's say once we started the social media it It worked out really, really nicely. Then the marketing efforts, actually were really good. And we had some we had some campaigns, which, which actually got outside press as well. And that was the company that came before them. So that was the beginning of okay, we can do it. It's nice, it's good. And then somehow, because this is visible all the company, all the company sees it, then we didn't have, you know, our own salespeople. And once they brought in, they brought in new clients. People began to realize: "Okay, that's it, we'll be working". And those were the sizes. Those are the sizes. That okay, it's moving. And once perhaps the people from the operational part of the business started to use some of the awards, which we were communicating, like engaging with clients. We have to we have, we have to work hard to acquire a new distribution channels, then I then I sense, okay, they are starting to buy the story. When a hurts the same or similar similar sentences being used as we use them in communicating the vision, of course, and it all those small elements, actually, small wins, or how should I put it? I think the story is more and more being bought. Yeah,

Interviewer: Being mindful of your time I'm wondering if you could share an anecdote of what happened next after this positive outcome? Were there some signs of regression, employees returning to their initial way of working before that?

Interviewee J: I think now we'll be moving to phase two, (there might) (both laugh). There were no major setbacks until now. Of course... of course, there are still there are still external factors as well. But think the first the first part of the story is now is now finished. I think the integration, everything has been done has been done pretty well. Now, we are moving into second phase, we are implementing some new it core systems. And this is really, really messy here. Undoubtedly, there will be setbacks. And I'm starting to sense in the sense that sometimes just building up in terms of, you know, this is an still analytical part, part of the company, and yeah, how we are going to do it and people want to know beforehand. exact steps, knew it's a path. (I said:) "Yeah, it will be difficult, it's uncertainty. I cannot tell you, if you have enough manpower to do it, but once you are there, you will get it. And now we are managing this. We are managing this, let's say fierce. What will be if this and this happens along the way? I don't know. We'll see. We'll manage it." So I think we are entering this new phase. We reach the peak in the peak in kind of the recognition. The story of being environmentally conscious, we had a nice day project as the cover story of the whole of the whole group of three love. That's that's a great thing. That's a big recognition. Actually, the trigger group was developing strategies. And the first there, the first item, there was Asset Management. Because we had these things we can, the strategic part of the study really sought it out, it was actually a negative thing. Because it's, it's, it's created envy. It never happened in Taylor before. And because the outside goes out of direct opalized, and they don't care about the internal about internal internal stuff. And now, I think things are going to be more difficult. It's never going to be more difficult inside the company. Because we are moving from this, you know, vision, vision and strategic and the merger to this internal nitty gritty, messy implementation, which will last more than a year, because it's a huge progress. It's a huge project. Now, I think definitely, we are entering inevitably, some, some set setbacks... We'll see.

Interviewer: I'm curious, did you see some ways of, you know, employees returning to their previous ways of working, kind of by just by default, you know, going into little bit of regression, and moving into the old way of working?

Interviewee J: Yes, to a certain extent, especially in the this operational part of the operational part of the business. It's something which we have, we have, let's say, potential potential obstacle in the in the, in the future. Because the two persons head into two departments, they are really, really fully dedicated to company, but they are really not the persons driving change within the organization. And now we will be starting to change those processes. And those are the major problems, I think we will be facing the facing in the future. And yeah, this is no, let's say, in the in, we are entering into the part of the story for the second time where where the main character is going to face either no enemy soldiers in a dark in the dark in the dark, so to speak, there will there will there will be challenging times. I'm most definitely. I'm definitely. I'm pretty convinced that they will.

Interviewer: What would you what would you emphasize is key, you know, kind of evidence of mastery evidence of things going good.

Interviewee J: Well, at the end of the day, its results on set in on several, several, several, let's say, areas. What is the results? I don't know. Let's talk about the asset managers. The parts I neglected I neglected a little bit I'm it's not in my reporting live but still they need they perhaps need more of my attention. But I simply couldn't, couldn't find enough time to dedicate to To be more engaged with them, and I consciously took the decision that okay, we are good enough. The board member responsible for them he's trying to he's trying to live them a little bit. But we have, because some things to improve steam, it's a continuous process. But they can do more than that, then then do what can then what they have done before, but now there was some recognition, some public awards, how successful they were. And they are no, okay, they are happy. And somehow, somehow, let's say that part is evidence of that things are nevertheless being good, then the sales results, then this outset recognition of the marketing efforts, and the fact that the online sales of funds versus online sales of insurance products, interest premia, it's three to one, okay. And with huge difference in resources, and when I told the team, this, this information, they were really happy. I think those are the science daughters, those are the size of things. Looking good. I'm still waiting for those sides on this operational bank officers of thing, and I can't think of any. So to give them some, give them some boost, some some some recognition. Okay. I recognize them, you know, like place, but it would be nice to find something, you know, that they will find, like more objective, yeah, with it. And that would be really, that would be really, that would be really great. I wanted 111, let's say in terms of work department that they have done really well. But their head is not skilled of, you know, internal marketing. And I have to find ways how to lead them as well. Because they've done a lot of work, but the self promotion is lacking a little bit. And you know, the sales guys, they are very good at self promoting.

Interviewer: Yeah, yeah, by default, I mean, this Yeah. But yeah. I mean, we're kind of I think we've got the whole picture. So this is just a couple of comments from me, not regarding your change, but overall, some of the research findings that you maybe maybe you may find interesting. I'm actually a big advocate of internal marketing and the way it changes overall being conveyed to people, maybe in your operational things. Some of these angles might be interesting for you, especially because I get a feeling you're open towards new ideas and not, you know, just automatically dismissing them because it's finance, it's more serious.

Interviewee J: Now, my, my ultimate goal is to make the make the company illustrates this. This is real document, ultimately, no, I'm not, I'm not buying suit anymore. Just to just to because everybody wants to get your neck. Wearing this end, will No, no, we will be moving to new to new premises, which will be totally different by choice not resemble financial institutions. And it will be a shock to some of the people's the younger part to come. Yeah, it looks fine.

Interviewer: So basically, the change is going to happen nevertheless, but the indicator of how good you were at managing change is how much people you were able to retain within this new environment, right? Yes,

Interviewee J: yes. And now we are entering the phase two. So it's because otherwise, you know, there still will be complacency as management companies are extremely profitable. But the profit is not, is backward look. It's not about the future, or future is determined by how much influence they generate. And that's where you move the KPI. And so that's, that's, that's somehow, somehow the story so far. The partner is successful. It's a nice story. We'll see about the second part.

Interviewer: Well I'm sure you will successfully find a way to get things done! Being mindful of your time, I would like to thank you for participating in this followup interview and for expressing interest in the research. I'll stop recording now and wish you a pleasant rest of the day.

Interviewee J: No problem, it was my pleasure, we'll stay in touch. Take care!