Interviewer(s): I003
Interviewee(s): P461

I003: You have so far told me that you are 40 years old now and you are from the Maasai community and have lived here over the past 27 years approximately. Correct?

P461: Mmhh.

I003: And your main activity is rearing livestock? And you have mentioned that you have seven children in your family?

P461: Mmhh.

I003: Okay, let us carry on with our discussion. Before you came to Mela village, you mentioned you were from, you had lived in…?

P461: Chalinze

I003: Chalinze?

P461: Mmhh.

I003: When you lived in Chalinze, what kind of home did you live in? And were you able to go to your aunt’s or your uncle’s house to eat? Or was it a home your father built and you lived and ate within that homestead?

P461: My father had his own homestead.

I003: His own homestead?

P461: We had meals within the homestead.

I003: Within?

P461: Mmhh.

I003: Was it just the one house within the homestead?

P461: No, there were several houses, a large homestead.

I003: Could you go eat at any of the other houses?

P461: Yes, I could go say to my Aunt’s house..,

I003: Say for example if your mother had made Ugali and you did not feel like having that and your aunt had made rice so you simply went to your aunt to eat?

P461: Eeeeh.

I003: Okay, now moving away from how you and your family lived, let us talk about family responsibilities. To begin with, how many children were there in your father’s family? How many children were born to his family?

P461: My mother had four children and I was the youngest.

I003: Four?

P461: Yes.

I003: Okay, so you were the fourth child. How many male and female children were there in your family?

P461: We were three girls and one boy.

I003: Within the family, did you have specific responsibilities allocated to children? What responsibilities were allocated to girls and boys?

P461: The girls gathered firewood and fetched water.

I003: The girls?

P461: Mmhh

I003: Firewood, water and what else?

P461: Cooking ugali

I003: uh huh, those were your main tasks?

P461: Mmhh.

I003: And what about the one boy in your family, what were his tasks?

P461: looking after the cattle, feeding and watering them.

I003: That was his main task?

P461: Yes.

I003: What about your mother, what were her responsibilities?

P461: My mother’s tasks included fetching water, gathering firewood and cooking.

I003: Those were your mother’s responsibilities?

P461: Mmhh.

I003: How about your father?

P461: My father would work to get money to buy food.

I003: So your father worked to buy food for the home? That was his responsibility?

P461: Yes.

I003: Okay. Let us move to another topic. When you lived in Chalinze what types of food would you say you would have every other day?

P461: I would say Ugali.

I003: Ugali huh? Okay. So besides Ugali, what foods would you say you had only on occasion?

P461: Rice and also meat we used to like a day where mum will cook ugali and meat.

I003: How would you source your food? Through farming perhaps?

P461: No, my father would work and buy food. We never farmed.

I003: So you father never farmed for food?

P461: No my parents never farmed for food.

I003: And who in the family would buy the food?

P461: My father did.

I003: There are some foods which one need not to farm or buy at a shop but they grow naturally around?

P461: There were some which would grow wild and naturally and people would go looking out for those.

I003: Who would look for these wild vegetables?

P461: We would do it ourselves.

I003: Why doesn’t your father get the traditional vegetables as he brings home the other food items?

P461: He can bring home food items which he will buy on the way home but he will not go looking for traditional vegetables in the wild.

I003: So you cannot ask your father to help out in gathering traditional vegetables?

P461: No

I003: Why not? Do you sympathize with him to have to do so?

P461: eeh! Yes

I003: Now let us talk about your childhood. You mentioned your father would work and buy food for the family, so when an item would run out, who would make the decision to replace it? Would he decide on his own or would he discuss it with your mother?

P461: He would discuss it with my mother.

I003: So they would decide it together?

P461: Yes. They would discuss it and he would go and get it

I003: They would not involve you children in those discussions regarding a food item running out?

P461: No.

I003: May I ask you another question?

While you lived in Chalinze near Dar-es-salaam, there were ways of identifying a child who is maturing into adulthood. How would you determine that a boy is transitioning to become a man or a girl to a woman? What would you look at to determine this?

P461: For a girl it would be based on her age.

I003: her age?

P461: Yes, her age. At around fifteen years she would be identified transitioning to becoming a woman.

I003: So it would be based only on age?

P461: Yes.

I003: How about a boy child?

P461: The same, it would also be based on age?

I003: On age?

P461: Ohh yes.

I003: And at what age for a boy?

P461: At about the age of sixteen and seventeen there.

I003: That is when he is said to be transitioning to become a man?

P461: Yes.

I003: And during this transition, was there a way to mark the change in the lives of the children transitioning to adulthood? Like a ceremony to mark the transition?

P461: Yes. There would be a ceremony.

I003: For both boys and girls?

P461: Yes for both boys and girls transitioning into adulthood.

I003: Would there be a dance?

P461: Ohh yes.

I003: And the same for the girls?

P461: No, for girls there would only be ceremony.

I003: A ceremony only?

P461: Yes.

I003: How many days would the ceremony last?

P461: Just one or two days. If it began tonight it would end the following evening.

I003: So the same thing for the boys?

P461: Yes, the same ceremony for the boys.

I003: So for the boys this happens once they return from initiation ceremony?

P461: Yes, after the initiation ceremony.

I003: And for the girls is it at her first menstrual cycle or is it something else? Or is it just based on age?

P461: Yes, it is based on age.

I003: So a girl who has started her periods but has not yet attained the age of fifteen may still participate in the ceremony?

P461: Yes, it is possible.

I003: Okay, let us talk about you, how many days did your ceremony last? Is it one or two days?

P461: Two days.

I003: Is it possible for the ceremonies for both boys and girls to be held at the same time?

P461: Do you mean in conjunction with the girls?

I003: Let us say you have a son and a daughter and you would like them to have their ceremonies on the same day so that you have just one ceremony.

P461: Ohhh yes that is possible.

I003: Now if we can move from the past to the present, how many years did you mention you have been here? How old is your eldest child? Did you say you got your first child when you were Twenty four or?

P461: I got my first child when I was sixteen years, he was born in 1993.

I003: So you have been in this village for twenty seven years? And since you came to this village what economic activities are you and your family engaged in? Is it crop farming or livestock rearing or in trade.

P461: Livestock rearing and we are also engaged in trade.

I003: So it is just animal rearing? Do you do crop farming? You mentioned you used to do crop farming in the past?

P461: Yes we used to but not anymore.

I003: Why did you stop?

P461: life got difficult.

I003: So if life gets difficult one stops farming?

P461: Yes. On this big piece of land how will you continue farming? Because prices of food have risen and this is about ten acres and you cannot support farming so you are forced to stop farming.

I003: I thought it is better to keep farming. You said your farm extends all the way to that tamarin tree?

P461: Ohh yes it is up to the tamarin tree.

I003: indeed that is a large piece of land.

P461: Yes a large piece of land full of maize.

I003: What is the largest harvest you had?

P461: 39 bags.

I003: Ma’am you had a lot of money! Why don’t you farm?

P461: That is how life is.

I003: But ma’am if you sold one cow you would plant maize and have food for a whole year.

P461: One cannot then plough the farm with one cow.

I003: really?

P461: Yes. If you sell the one you are ploughing with then what will you do and you still have to weed the land?

I003: What do you use to plough though? Is it a cow?

P461: I use a tractor.

I003: A tractor?

P461: Yes.

I003: Okay. Let us now discuss the difference in the responsibilities of the past and present day. Boys and girls had defined tasks. Now you are a mother, do your children have the same tasks as you used to do or has that changed?

P461: The responsibilities have changed.

I003: Okay, share some examples.

P461: Work in the past was easier but presently it is more difficult. In gathering firewood and fetching water nowadays the sources are far away. And for boys herding cattle they have to walk further to find pasture for the cows.

I003: Okay. Do you find your children carrying out their tasks willingly or are they reluctant?

P461: My children?

I003: Yes, with your children; do they do their tasks willingly like you used to or are they reluctant?

P461: Yes, sometimes they are reluctant and even say they are tired.

I003: Your generation would not tire out?

P461: No we would not get tired.

I003: How is it that you never tired?

P461: I really do not know, I think our bodies were stronger.

I003: So you want to say the children today are not strong?

P461: They are, however they tire easily even after a short walk or doing some small task, they are tired.

I003: Why do you think that is?

P461: I do not know but perhaps life has become more difficult, and they get exhausted from working I think because the sun is too hot nowadays.

I003: So when the weather is hot they are unable to work?

P461: Yes indeed.

I003: really?

P461: Say for example you are out in the fields herding cattle’s a person must move as the cow moves and sometimes you run so as to put them together so you are always on the move.

I003: Okay. You have a daughter?

P461: Yes.

I003: Is she married?

P461: No, she is in secondary school.

I003: In the home where you grew up, how many of you were educated?

P461: None of us went to school.

I003: Not a single one? And what about your own children how many are educated?

P461: All of my children are or have been in school.

I003: All of them?

P461: This one has completed secondary school, another two are also educated and my daughter is the youngest and is in secondary school currently.

I003: So your children are educated.

P461: Yes.

I003: Now could we discuss about foods that you ate as a child which you no longer eat as well as foods that you eat now that you did not eat when you were a child, also the method of cooking maybe having changed from boiling to now frying with onions and tomatoes. Have you experienced such changes?

P461: Yes. For example with amaranth we would just pick it, wash it, boil it and add milk and eat but nowadays we fry it with onions and tomatoes.

I003: So changes do exist?

P461: Yes they do.

I003: What foods would you say you eat now which you never ate when growing up?

P461: The foods are the same. Only the preparation method varied like adding oil, also before some people used to cook cow’s blood and was eaten like that.

I003: That is it?

P461: Yes. That is it although nowadays those methods or preparation are not used.

I003: What were the foods prepared in those ways? Say by adding oil…

P461: We would add oil from sheep, cows,

I003: is it ‘nguruni or ‘ngurena?

P461: Ghee ‘ngurena’ in Swahili is called samli.

I003: No I am asking about the one from the tail of the goat or sheep, what is it called?

P461: ‘Ng’orno.’

I003: When you cook it, you separate the oil and you have solids which you add to ugali, you said it is called?

P461: Ng’orno.

I003: So nowadays the foods have changed? ‘ng’orno’ is no longer available?

P461: It is still there, during the rainy season it is available.

I003: And what foods would you say you never ate in the past and now you eat?

P461: I would say potatoes, we never used to have them before but nowadays we buy them and cook.

I003: What about chicken?

P461: We do not eat them.

I003: Even nowadays you do not eat them?

P461: no, we don’t. We just grow them and sell

I003: They are not eaten at all in this house?

P461: not at all.

I003: Even children do not eat them?

P461: No, we only grow them and sell.

I003: What about eggs? Although nowadays I understand some people eat them.

P461: No we do not eat them. Yes I understand some people do eat them, but we do not.

I003: Even in your home nobody eats it?

P461: no.

I003: Could you explain why the foods and preparation methods have changed with time?

P461: Perhaps education.

I003: So you think education has made people eat foods they never ate in the past?

P461: Yes, like sugar.

I003: Another reason? Why is it linked to education?

P461: Not really, only that one linked to education.

I003: This area had a Large Maasai population in the past?

P461: Not really, the Maasai population is larger now.

I003: Are there other tribes like Wagogo in this area?

P461: No, only Maasai

I003: Really! No other tribes only Maasai?

P461: No, only Maasai.

I003: Okay. Perhaps tell me about markets?

P461: Markets are not available in our area yet, perhaps only the ones along the road at Kibaoni area.

I003: The one along the road on the way to Kilosa?

P461: Yes on the way to Kilosa.

I003: Do you think perhaps vegetables and other foods are transported to this place using bicycles and motorcycles right?

P461: Yes.

I003: Could that be the reason people now consume other foods including foods that people have not consumed before?

P461: Ohhh yes, people try it.

I003: So the next time I am here I could have some sardines and fish, and you will also have some?

P461: Yes you may have your sardines, but who will prepare it, because I do not eat those foods?

I003: Okay, so you have basically mentioned three main reasons which explain the different foods people like and consume and you have also mentioned foods like sardines and fish which people here do not eat.

P461: No, we do not eat.

I003: And other food items you consume because they transit this area on motorcycles. When they are available you buy them. And another is due to people getting educated?

P461: Yes.

I003: Could you share any other reason as to why there has been some change in the foods people consume in this area?

P461: No.

I003: There are some foods which would be said to be cheap or affordable and people from the cities would consider someone eating them to be broke. What are some such foods?

P461: Perhaps like for us in the Maasai community we do not eat millet. When we see someone having ‘ugali’ made from millet then we think that person to be poor or broke.

I003: Ohh okay, someone eating millet could be described as broke or poor, anything else?

P461: That is it.

I003: What about ‘kididio’ gravy made from tomatoes onions and maize flour?

P461: We eat that.

I003: It is not associated with poverty?

P461: No, we eat it.

I003: Okay, let us discuss the foods consumed nowadays in your community; do you think these foods are as nutritious as those consumed long ago? And do such foods diminish the culture? For example rice or chips?

P461: No, they do not diminish our culture. They cannot. After all we are the ones who prepare the foods.

I003: So you would say it is not a problem?

P461: Not at all.

I003: And within your family unit, with your children consuming these current day foods, have you noticed any changes in them? Eating ‘pilau’, rice or chip?

P461: No.

I003: Perhaps we could briefly discus milk. Do you consume milk? Is it an important food item to you? And do you like it?

P461: Yes, I like it very much.

I003: Why do you like it so much?

P461: Because I have liked milk since I was a child.

I003: So tell me you like milk as much as you did when you were a child; do you benefit from consuming milk more now as an adult or more when you were a child?

P461: I would say at both times, as an adult and as a child milk has been beneficial. The only exception is that it is not as readily available these days also weather is not favourable it is very hot nowadays and cattle moving further away to look for pastures.

I003: Conditions are difficult?

P461: Yes, very difficult.

I003: You mentioned milk is difficult to get these days, why do you think that is?

P461: Well because of rising temperatures, there is no pasture for the animals.

I003: Ok, so it is due to the prolonged dry season or?

P461: Ohh yes and also that affects the presence of water.

I003: Another reason? Do you experience land disputes in this area?

P461: Not really. Perhaps in the case where one of your cows wanders onto someone’s land and they trap it, but you discuss and agree but not in anger.

I003: Do you have anything further to add to this?

P461: No, that is all.

I003: How about diseases and illness?

P461: Diseases were widespread especially last year. We lost many of our animals.

I003: Could that be an additional reason as to why milk is not available as it is used to be before?

P461: Yes probably unless the cow is not in good shape.

I003: So we can attribute the shortage of milk to three main things, drought, lack of water and diseases?

P461: Yes.

I003: Anything else?

P461: No.

I003: Okay. Now let us talk about buying food. Who buys the food in your household?

P461: In our home, it is the father, my husband who does it.

I003: How comes he is the one who buys food though?

P461: Because he is the one with an income.

I003: He is the one with an income?

P461: Yes I am just at the home; I do not earn any money?

I003: So he is the one who will go buy the items? But can’t he give you the money to buy the items?

P461: No.

I003: Really?

P461: Yes.

I003: Is that Maasai culture that the mother in the family may not be given money?

P461: Mmmm No, the only time my husband would give me money is if I am unwell or if our children are unwell.

I003: I thought that the men in Maasai culture would give the women some money.

P461: No. In Maasai community there are some who do not.

I003: What type of foods in particular would he usually buy?

P461: Usually he would buy maize and vegetables too.

I003: And who informs the men on what items need to be bought?

P461: We are the ones who do that. We will tell them when something is finished like we would just mention if say flour is finished and then he will go buy it.

I003: You said ‘we’, meaning you and who else?

P461: I meant we the wives.

I003: Your husband has how many wives?

P461: He has two.

I003: So you are two?

P461: Yes but she has her own home.

I003: So each of you has her own home?

P461: Yes.

I003: You cannot both stay in one house?

P461: We used to live in one house until our husband builds another house for her.

I003: And you have no disagreement with each other?

P461: No.

I003: Really?

P461: Mmhh.

I003: There is no jealousy between two of you?

P461: No.

I003: Really?

P461: Yes.

I003: How do they get along so well without disagreement when others get into fights over straying from the relationship?

P461: That is common out there among others but among the Maasai we do not have that.

I003: Now let us discuss the availability of foods between this village here and where you grew up in Chalinze. Which area had larger supplies of food?

P461: I think it was better where I was before (Chalinze). At present here the food prices are high. Drought has brought about problems with food availability.

I003: So the other place (Chalinze) was better?

P461: Yes.

I003: So food there was in good supply?

P461: Yes.

I003: And in this area where you live now, if say you wanted to buy fruits or vegetables or even oil. Where would you buy it from?

P461: Just along the road.

I003: Along the road on the tarmac?

P461: Yes.

I003: At the market or?

P461: Yes at the auction but also at a nearby village called Mbelelasia

I003: Ohhh that is where you go to buy these items?

P461: Yes they are available.

I003: Is the place far from here?

P461: It is a bit far, I go by motorcycle.

I003: If you compared the distance you travel to buy food, between where you grew up and here which is closer to access food?

P461: The place where I grew up was closer as it was along the road.

I003: What would you say is a popular meal in your home? One which is cooked often?

P461: I would say ‘Ugali’ thick porridge other times we also have rice, we mix it up.

I003: You mentioned you mix it up, one day you will cook say rice today, then you will make plantain the next day and cassava on another day, tell me how do you determine what to cook on which day?

P461: I do not predetermine and in fact the main food eaten pretty much daily is ‘ugali’ because the other food types are not available on a daily basis.

I003: So it is based on availability? The readily available foods are the ones which will be cooked?

P461: Yes.

I003: That is one determining factor. What other factors would you guide what food you will cook? Say rice one day and plantain the next, what would determine that?

P461: When plantain is available on particular day, I will cook that. But rice is not readily available. Perhaps when you go into the city one day and you find it then only on that day you will likely have rice.

I003: What else would determine what foods you would cook? The choice to mix it up and have one item today and another tomorrow, do your children participate in choosing some of the foods you cook?

P461: Ahh,

I003: Do your children sometimes refuse eating ‘ugali’?

P461: Yes of course they do, but what other food will I cook? Yes sometimes by the time we are having supper they say they do not want ‘ugali’ again, but they just have to eat what I have prepared because where will I get some other food?

I003: So they will just eat whatever you would have prepared?

P461: Yes.

I003: So regularly you prepare say ‘ugali’ and beans but if a bicycle food vendor passes by you will buy a different food item on sale?

P461: Yes if the food vendor comes by I would have to buy something different with the money that I would have at that moment.

I003: What other factors have I not mentioned that would determine your choice in what to cook?

P461: None.

I003: So it is just those three factors? So the first is dependent on having enough money to buy other foods, another is the choice of the children or your husband asking for a change and finally you cook what is readily available.

P461: Yes.

I003: And what happens when you have a special visitor for whom you would like to prepare a special meal? Like make rice for a particular visitor. Would that change the menu? Would you do that? Or would a visitor simply eat whatever was on the day’s menu?

P461: The visitor would eat whatever we have prepared.

I003: Really?

P461: Yes. We are deep in the village, where would we readily get alternatives?

I003: But you could use a motorcycle to get other food?

P461: With a motorcycle you have an additional cost of fuel or fare.

I003: So it is better for the visitor to eat whatever has been cooked?

P461: Yes, it is better that way unless one has time to go buy other foods.

I003: Now onto the next question, please tell me, when you were in Chalinze, do you recall a time of extreme hunger and drought with no money available and you would even sleep hungry?

P461: No.

I003: You never experienced that?

P461: No.

I003: And what about here where you live? Have you ever experienced that here?

P461: There was one year where we experienced drought. I do not recall how expensive a kilo of maize flour was in fact the children would sleep hungry. Food was just not available.

I003: What year was that? Last year or what year was that?

P461: It was last year but one.

I003: That is when you experience drought?

P461: It also happened last year. Maize prices went up so high; a 20kg bucket of maize was selling at thirty thousand shillings.

I003: How did you managed to survive that situation to today?

P461: God is there for us and we persevered until the rains came.

I003: So it is through God that you survived?

P461: Ohh yes.

I003: But it is not just through, God says he helps those who help themselves. What did you do to help yourselves? Did you resort to selling food or cows to get some money to buy food? Or did you take a loan? What did you do to manage?

P461: Yes we had to sell our cows at a low price and then you would get a sack of maize to survive on.

I003: How much would you get from selling a cow though?

P461: It would go down to half the price. We would sell it to get money to buy food to feed our families.

I003: Who would you say gets most affected by this issued of drought?

P461: There are some adversely affected. They lost all their cows until they contemplated suicide. They would be looking for rope to hang themselves.

I003: How about within your home, did anyone contemplate suicide?

P461: No. We only lost cows, seven of them.

I003: I am very sorry. So you made through the drought with some help from here and there and you sold some of your cows to get money to buy food.

P461: Yes.

I003: Tell me; in the home where you grew up, what measures did your father take to ensure there was no hunger?

P461: Times were different then. He would sell a cow to buy a sack of maize and it would last until the next rain season, it was very different from today.

I003: Let us discuss the final item. Please tell me, as regards nutritional health, how do you get access to information? Does someone come around informing people of various foods that are good for the body? Have you ever heard of such a service?

P461: No.

I003: I have heard that you get such information during clinic visits?

P461: Yes. When we go to the clinic we are informed. I have visited the clinic this year to treat a cold. I was informed to eat beans, amaranth and fruits. I was advised to take these alongside medication until I felt better.

I003: So you get this information and education at the clinic?

P461: Yes.

I003: Do you get this information from anywhere else besides at the clinic?

P461: No.

I003: You have never been called to a gathering like a seminar to get such information?

P461: No, I have never been to one. I have only heard from others who attended.

I003: Others attend seminars?

P461: Yes. Even yesterday there was a seminar.

I003: Regarding food and nutrition?

P461: Yes.

I003: Where was it held?

P461: At the school. INTERRUPTION

I003: How are you Mr? ##P462## I am fine and you?

I am also fine. I am just conducting an interviewing with this lady. ##P462## About what?

Regarding nutrition and the lifestyle of herders. It is a survey but may lead to a project. END OF INTERRUPTION

So you went to the clinic and they advised you on what to do. Did you benefit from their advice?

P461: Yes I did.

I003: In the event there may be a project regarding nutrition, health and such topics, would the people here be interested?

P461: Yes we would.

I003: If we are interested in conducting further research on your lifestyle and how you live how would we go about that? How would we be able to reach other people in the village?

P461: There is no problem with that. You would just speak with them. You would contact the village officer who is able to get in touch with everyone here and inform them of the same.

I003: How about if we also made announcements in the churches and schools? Do you think we could reach more people that way?

P461: Yes.

I003: Do you think the children would be able to convey the message at home?

P461: Yes they will.

I003: And what about at the churches? Do many people go to church here?

P461: Yes they do, many people go to church. We have two churches. One is called Calvary and another is called “KKKT- (Kanisa la kiinjili la Kilutheri Tanzania – Tanzania Lutheran Gospel Church)” which is ELCT- Evangelical Lutheran Church Tanzania.

I003: Do you go to church and which church do you attend?

P461: ELCT

I003: That is Lutheran Church?

P461: Yes. It is Lutheran.

I003: When we are organizing this seminar, Should we target the women, the men or the children?

P461: All of them, but more so for the women.

I003: Why do you think we should target the women more?

P461: Because they are the ones who are unaware especially many of them are not educated and will therefore need to be informed.

I003: So your advice is we concentrate on the women?

P461: Not necessarily, you may talk to both men and women together. Even in the recent seminar they had both the men and the women together.

I003: Thank you I am grateful. I have completed my questions; perhaps you have some questions for me?

P461: No, I have no problem, I have no questions.

I003: I was not saying there is a problem; I just wanted to know if you have any questions, not even one question.

P461: Maybe you could tell me when you will roll out this project? Or how we would benefit from this project?

I003: Okay, these are the questions I was hoping for, allow me to answer them. I am here as a researcher. Just the way you prepare before you take your animals out to graze. What preparations do you make before going out to graze your cattle?

P461: No we do not have any preparations

I003: You do not? Don’t you have to check if there is good pasture before taking your animals out to graze?

P461: Yes we do, we check that there is adequate pasture, water is available nearby.

I003: So that is also a type of research that you do. So we are also doing the research. We cannot start a project without carrying out the research first. And that is why in my last question I asked how we would go about doing a project for a seminar in your village. What would be the recommended approach? So there are good plans ahead.

P461: Okay.

I003: I am grateful. I will turn off my recording device now

P461: Okay.