Norman Graham Oral History Interview
Interviewer(s): Randolph Adams
Interviewee(s): Norman Graham

Randolph Adams: Today is August 22nd, 2019. This is Randolph Adams. I am interviewing Norman Graham, who was a Peace Corps volunteer in Brazil from August 1964 to August 1966. To start off, the most common question, of course, is why did you join the Peace Corps?

Norman Graham: Well, I think if you can remember back into the particularly early ‘60s and in the Kennedy administration, there was just a lot of hope in the world that that young people or this nation could make some really meaningful changes and in the world and with other nations and with other peoples. And you know, that call was very strong for me and that I can do something and make some contribution to another other people was just so appealing to me. And plus, I really wanted to travel. I never traveled very much. Never been out of the country except for Canada. And I thought that would be a very, you know, very interesting experience.

Randolph Adams: What was life like before you joined the Peace Corps?

Norman Graham: Well, I just finished undergraduate school and social work, and that was really that was very fulfilling. I was very active in student affairs and very active in my fraternity and had a really nice group of friends. And so it was a very fulfilling experience and that was kind of adding to my desire to make a contribution to other people.

Randolph Adams: Where did you study and what did you study?

Norman Graham: Ohio State University. I had major in social work with a minor in criminology.

Randolph Adams: Were there any other life experiences that you could recall that may have also influenced you to think about serving in an organization like the Peace Corps?

Norman Graham: No, I just think my observations of the hope that was in the in the ‘60s, that this generation can make a contribution. And I was very strong on that and I'd been active in the civil rights movement and saw some changes in that too.

Randolph Adams: How did you hear about the Peace Corps?

Norman Graham: Well, I was on campus. Recruiters. There was in the news and the recruiters were around and I think, at the student union. I went over and signed up.

Randolph Adams: Was there a specific country you were interested in?

Norman Graham: Well, I was very interested in learning how to speak Spanish. So that was an interesting so I was my first desire was going to South America.

Randolph Adams: What was the timing like for the application process?

Norman Graham: It was perfect because I had finished just finishing undergraduate school. I accepted an internship at the Federal Bureau of Prisons and there was a, where I was. I lived in Columbus, Ohio, at that time and there was a federal reformatory in Chillicothe, Ohio, actually the town that I grew up in. And so there was an internship that particular summer, and this project was not supposed to begin until August or late August, I believe. And so the timing was perfect because by the time I was informed early on, the project was going to be in Brazil again. Kind of a little joke because I wanted to learn Spanish, but that was a Portuguese speaking country. But it sounded interesting and it was the first offer and I took it. And I think I knew about the that right around the time I graduated in June and then with my internship and had a couple of days at home and off I went.

Randolph Adams: What was your reaction when you were accepted?

Norman Graham: I was very honored to be accepted because I know it was that time was pretty competitive and even more competitive now I understand, but competitive and I feel, you know, you know, quite honored. In fact, some of the some of the literature at that time about people who had to face adverse situations in their life, but people that were picked for the Peace Corps were, you know, right at the top of the list. So I felt, whoa, hey, I'm part of that group.

Randolph Adams: What about your friends and family? How did they react?

Norman Graham: The family was not, not too keen on it. I'm an only child, so my parents were not too keen on me going, but they didn't put any impediments in my in my way.

Randolph Adams: Did you have other friends that applied or no?

Norman Graham: No, that was it. Actually, the fellow that I that I did the internship with at Chillicothe, Ohio, in the reformatory. He was also accepted for a project in Brazil and was going to, I think his training group was starting the same time as mine, but in a different location.

Randolph Adams: Did you know before you left that it was going to be involved with prisons or did you find that out once you arrived?

Norman Graham: What's involved with what?

Randolph Adams: Your work was going to be involved with prisons?

Norman Graham: No, I trained in New York, in the jungles of New York City at NYU and it was a health project. So I was with a lot of nurses and as a male non-nurse, I was being, you know, as a sanatorium and we were scheduled to go to the northeast Brazil. And so I learned about latrines and, you know, health care and lots of diseases and first aid and, you know, those kinds of things. And so that was that was the mission.

Randolph Adams: Can you elaborate a little more about the training, how did how did you receive it? Did you think you were being properly prepared?

Norman Graham: Well, I think so. You know, in terms of I had nothing really to, you know, to compare it to at that particular time. But you know, it was new information for me about, you know, tropical diseases. And I was really keen on helping people with latrines and maybe building some houses out of, you know, out of adobe and, you know, probably much more enthusiastic than knowledgeable. But I was ready to go. And I thought the instructors that we had, both the language instructors as well as the more technical instructors were, were very good, were really excellent I think.

Randolph Adams: In retrospect, do you feel there were any particular weaknesses?

Norman Graham: I can't. I can't recall any. No, no. Now, you have to understand it didn't train me for what I eventually ended up doing, but the intentions were all there.

Randolph Adams: Sounds like a story I've heard before.

Norman Graham: Yes, right?

Randolph Adams: So your style of training was at the university, so you didn't have much interaction with actual Brazilians.

Norman Graham: You know, instructors were mostly Brazilians, the language instructors. And we got tickets to see George Proyecto, so that's great.

Randolph Adams: Were any volunteers asked to leave during the training process?

Norman Graham: Yeah, I think we lost close to 50 percent. Yeah.

Randolph Adams: How many did you start with, do you remember?

Norman Graham: No, I don't recall. But you know, most were lost at half time, halfway through. I know a couple of the women were there and they decided to go back with their boyfriends, you know, want to get married. So because I mean, the rumor was, those kinds of relationships didn't last over a two year period if you were separated.

Randolph Adams: The next question would be, what was your initial entry into the country like?

Norman Graham: We had some nice training in Rio de Janeiro. And that was really great to be in Rio. And we had some orientation, which I’m bit fuzzy on. I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was basically a scheduled for about a week, I think, to just get us used to the country, get a feel for the country and kind of relax a little bit and feel welcome. And so that was really nice. Now the whole thing got changed, as I said before I was, but I was supposed to, scheduled to go to northeast Brazil. And while I was there, a fellow came by the name of Phil Lopez, who was directing the project in Brasilia, and had seen my bio and wondered if I wanted to go to this project in Brasilia, which was the first group in Brasilia. So I said, sure, sounds great.

Randolph Adams: I take it this was a staff person.

Norman Graham: Yeah, Phil was the director. Yes, it was a staff person. Yeah. He's recruiting and recruited from a couple of different groups.

Randolph Adams: So I guess he was the one that actually facilitated your moving into this position.

Norman Graham: Yes, that's correct. Yeah. Going to Brasilia.

Randolph Adams: Can you elaborate now on what the specifics of your assignment were like?

Norman Graham: Well, it's kind of a long story. We got to Brasilia and at that time it was only half built, one side, and I don't know if you're familiar with Brasilia, but it's like in shape of an airplane. And one of the fuselages was the government buildings and the wings were commercial residential. And only one of the wings was built out. The rest, the other wings had some cute little wooden houses and lots of red dirt. You know, there's a lot of iron in the soil there. So first assignment was I was assigned with another female volunteer and we were assigned to a satellite town called Planaltina. Planaltina was a satellite town that was in existence before Brasilia was built. Most of the other satellite towns were new, and we were assigned to work with the social worker in that in that village. Yeah, for myself, the general community development, community improvement projects, what happened was, is that just as we arrived and the fellow who was the social worker and that township was promoted to being the chief of the whole social service foundation. And for the federal district. And so we went out there and he kept saying, well, I'll be out there, we'll get some projects going, I'll be out there, we'll get some projects going and some time passed.

So I was um looking for a mission, basically. The one which was really quite discouraging because I was out there to do something and I wasn't doing much. But in the meantime, I was befriended by a young Brazilian fellow who wanted to learn some English. So I was learning Portuguese, so he and he introduced me to a lot of townspeople and playing cards, and we'd go up and watch television in his friend's house, and he had a good time. And that was 50 some years ago, and we still have a really nice relationship. And I, I think I was somewhat influential in his in his career because he was a young fellow, one of 10 children from a farm family. And I kind of think that I influenced a bit about going to college, and he went to this agricultural college and eventually became part of the faculty. So yeah, I just, we just saw him last year we were visiting. So keep that up and telephone conversations when we can. So that's very gratifying relationship. But anyway, back to the main topic.

So I spent a month out there and I told our director Phil, I said this, you know, this is going nowhere. What else was happening? And it happened at that time, one of the social workers in the Social Service Foundation was with the penitentiary on the just outside of Brasilia. So he saw my background in corrections and filled in and asked me if I wanted to do that. Sure, sounds great.

Little did I know what it's getting myself into, but that happened very quickly. And what happened? You've got to remember this penitentiary is not one with, was not one with walls. It was two old barracks which were originally constructed to house single men that were there to build Brasilia. And it was an area called Vellia Cap, All Capital. And there was these barracks, and this is where the workers lived, single workers live. And then it was converted into this penitentiary basically. And then it just surrounded these old barracks with barbed wire and put these young guys out there with machine guns. And so it was very crude. Very crude. And what was fortunate is that there was right next door was a boys’ school. These are for kids that were either abandoned or orphaned, young boys that were, you know, in custody of the welfare organization. And so for exchange for board and room, I did some physical education with the kids and did some other activities with these young boys, which was which was kind of fun. So I lived there and I worked at the prison during the day and weekends.

So you're probably interested in what I did there?

Randolph Adams: Typical workday.

Norman Graham: Well, nothing is typical when you're working in a prison. Well, there was not much going on there, actually. When I got there, the there was like big rooms. There were like 12 to 15 people in one cell and they were locked up 22 hours a day, had two hours afternoon outside in the yard. So I think I did have. The first things I did was to go to the Ministry of Education and they were able to grant me some free sports equipment. So I brought the sports equipment, you know, to the prison. So the fellows had had some, basically not much, there wasn't much room. So they had room for volleyball, you know, and a little bit of small, very small field, you know, soccer. And so that was fun. They were really very enthusiastic about that. Then I started a program with, I would go to the AID office and get some films and actually one their 16 millimeter projector. And I would get some films about brushing your teeth or good hygiene or something. And then I would go and rent, you know, I paid for that myself, go rent a feature film and we’d have like every other Friday night a movie night in the yard. So and then there was I started a program with a lot of the fellows were illiterate. So actually the federal government had a good program for teaching literacy. So I got some information from them and I started literacy program and I started, you know, said, well, they're literate. They I should know something about mathematics. They should also know something about Brazilian history.

And I did that for like a month or so, and I said, you know, what am I doing? Teaching Portuguese to a bunch of people who are more fluent than I? And so then I taught a couple of the more educated prisoners to be the teachers. So we have a little school going. So, you know, some of some of the guys were more literate than others and we need things to read. So with the help of the social worker, you know, the Brazilian social worker, she made some contacts at schools and we got a lot of donated books. So the guy, so I started a library and so we had a little fun, actually. The lieutenant was in charge of the penitentiary slackened, and he was pretty tough character, slackened some of his rules and gave us a space. We can have our library. And so I, with the help of there were some librarian, librarian, Peace Corps volunteers. So I set up helped got some information and they helped set up by Dewey Decimal System to catalog these books. So we got a lot of books, not only just children's books, but we got some more adult books. But a lot of the books were pretty, pretty dilapidated. And then I was talking with the social worker, you know, my counterpart, and she said, well, you know, I think there must be something in the Department of Education. So we went there and yeah, there was there was a book binding course.

So we got some book binding teachers to come out. And then at the same time, they said, well, how about carpentry? And oh, yeah, sure. So we were teaching carpentry skills. And when I was leaving, I mean, then we got a lot of books that were really improved. And when I was leaving, there was there was a grant. We got a grant to buy some equipment for bookbinding, you know, because all you need certain kind of equipment. But at that time, a lot of Brazilians liked to have their books, all in one color on the shelf. And there was no bookbinding facility, except for government things, before you hit Rio or before you hit Sao Paolo. So it was a business opportunity. So and then the carpenters now were now building a little pavilion do that. Unfortunately, I never found out what happened because the volunteer who followed me, I don't know whatever happened to him, you know, he was supposed to be in there. So it was pretty tough duty. So he may not have been able to hang on there, but I had to. It was kind of a seven day a week job because there were a number of abuses in the prison. So I would just show up at odd times, weekends, evenings, and nothing happened while I was there. But I felt an obligation to, you know, be kind of a guardian angel to these to these prisoners.

Randolph Adams: How large was the prison? How large was it in terms of?

Norman Graham: I’d say there were about 10 cells, anywhere from 100 to 120 probably max males. And there were there were about four or five females there also that were in a different, different barracks, but then not far away. But they pretty much kept to themselves.

Randolph Adams: So it was a seven day a week job. But did you have any leisure time?

Norman Graham: Oh yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. I made sure I got together with some of my colleagues and I saw my friend got my friend in Planaltina and see him, or we could come in and we go to a movie. And I think, yeah, at one time I took a little road trip with him to see his family. His family lived down on a farm, in another, in another state. Spent a weekend out there with him and his family, which was really quite nice.

Randolph Adams: You said you were able to get some support from another volunteer. Was this typical of the group where you could reach out to other expertise?

Norman Graham: Uh yeah, I don't think I did. I mean, with the librarians, which was pretty, you know, pretty, pretty obvious. I don't think I needed to. I think the only other thing I needed from the other volunteers was just, sometimes you just kind of blow off steam, you know, let your hair down, you know? And just be with colleagues.

Randolph Adams: How frequent was that? Was opportunities did you have?

Norman Graham: Oh, it kind of depended on what's going on. I know our director would pull us in every maybe six months for like a weekend or something, and we could take great showers and fax. So, I mean, maybe every other week or something like that.

Randolph Adams: Can you elaborate a little more on your living arrangements?

Norman Graham: Living arrangements I think were pretty decent. I lived at the boys’ school and had running water and they had two cooks for the children. Limited menu, of course, rice and beans or beans and rice, which I still love actually. And these two cooks were just male and female. They were very dark there. Yeah, black. And when I left in Thanksgiving, for what they've done for me or, you know, I gave them some gifts and I had the ultimate compliment from them and I still remember this. They said, Norman, you may be white, but your heart is black. And I thought that I said that I almost came to tears on that one. I thought that was just a wonderful comment. Yeah, but I had to get there before. My hours were so weird at the prison. Sometimes the kids would get the meal before I would. But they’re being kids, so I survived.

Randolph Adams: How did, was this something that the service paid for, or was this part of your, coming out of your allowance? Payment for the food, payment for the?

Norman Graham: Oh no, no, I got free room and board for, you know, in exchange for doing work with the children. I would do the physical education. And then on Sundays, over in the next little town, what's called Nuclear Bondaraunche, it's no longer there. Bondaraunche meaning people from the backlands and these were the people that from the Northeast that came down to build Brasilia and they were supposed to go back after they did their task, but they stayed. And that's why there's all these satellite towns around Brasilia. They said, hey, I’m earning some money. I'm going to bring my family here. And they built houses and stayed. But Nuclear Bondaraunche was something out of the Wild West, a little dirt roads and sidewalks made out of wooden planks, wooden sidewalks, raised up over the muck, over the streets. It's just like, you know, you'd see in the old Wild West. When I took the kids over there, they got a movie every Sunday, so I'd escort them over there and try to help them behave. No, they were nice kids for probably what they went through.

Randolph Adams: Thinking of your full two-year period, did you yourself see an evolution of how you were engaging, how things were progressing?

Norman Graham: Yeah, I think, you know two things. I think I gave the prisoners a piece of myself. And it gave them some hope. And it's somebody that cared to them, about them, as individuals and not criminals, because most of them were there for homicides. And really pariahs. And I think they appreciated that. In fact, I know they told me they did. The other thing is, when I left was that, as I said before that the prisoners were locked up 22 hours a day and when you have a tin roof in the summertime, yeah, it's not only stuffy, but anyway, the only time they're locked up is that after supper in the evening and then they got out at breakfast. Yeah, so they were from 7:00 AM to 7:00 PM anyway or 8:00 PM. Oh, I think the other thing is I was at a party. I also ran the dispensary by default because the guy, was one of ex-prisoners who was also an ex-police officer, was running it and they wanted me to take over, so I had to. I knew enough about medication and then I'd throw stuff away after it was expired for three or four years. But I was at a party and then I was trying to get the fellows regular medical care, which was difficult. Because the transportation, had to take them in to Brasilia. And one guy, I remember a guy named Zed, crazy chap who was not only a bit psychotic, but, you know, he had really severe seizure disorder, and it just broke me. He’d go into a seizure and we couldn't, you know, couldn't get the kind of medical care to, you know, to get him stabilized.

And remember, I was shown a movie one night, uh, Friday night out in the yard and towards the end of the movie, you hear this voice and it's coming from above. And Zed’s up in a tree. And I said, what the heck am I going to do here? So I grabbed a table or something and pulled it over to the tree and I was going up to get him. And he came right down, right next to me, on top of the table, broke his hip and that was sad. I mean, he was a bit crazy, but a lovable crazy. I mean, the fortunate thing is, you know, he got better, and then he was went to a psych hospital for a while. He eventually came back. And by that time I had been to a party and there was two Brazilian physicians and they basically asked me what I was doing. And I said about the difficulty in getting medical care. They said, oh, we'll come out. It kind of bowled me over, you know? Yes!

So they alternated. They would come out every other week and by their orders, you know, the guys started getting, the women too, you know, starting getting regular medical care. That was really gratifying, too. Yeah, that was nice. Because a lot of them had, you know, chronic. They never took care of themselves that much. Nothing super major. But some of the things that made me like some psychotic disorders that need to be stabilized.

So and I think the other thing is, I'm not I don't know if I made any major change or not, is that I think the custodial staff begin to soften in terms of their discipline. I don't know. It's tough when you give somebody a uniform and not much training. The authority goes to their head, and they think these people are hardened criminals and you know. But anyway, that's another story.

Randolph Adams: As you became more familiar and comfortable with the language, did you see that having an effect on your ability to do the things you wanted to do?

Norman Graham: I never became really very fluent in Portuguese. Mainly because I was people around people who basically used the present and simple, past tense knows, you know, and I can never really get into some of the more difficult tenses to talk with people that are educated. So I talked on a very basic level. But no, I don't think. I think it probably was in a little bit embarrassing when I had to talk with some people that were educated. The mistakes I made, they thought were funny, so I went along with that. And that was good.

Randolph Adams: Moving on to another area. What about vacation time, did you do that?

Norman Graham: Yeah, oh yeah, I used that, that was great, because I was able to get around Brazil and I went I spent some time up in the Amazon, actually more than I know more than I expected. Not a whole lot, but because of plane breakdowns, I spent some time there and, uh, got around in the Amazon area and down through the coast, the west or the east coast of Brazil, visiting volunteers on the way. Some of the people that I had trained with, saw them. And then another vacation period, I went south to southern Brazil and actually saw one of the families of one of the prisoners, and took them some greetings that their son was OK. I didn't exchange anything else. And then got into Uruguay and Argentina briefly. Got spooked out in Argentina because I was on the street, and it's all these people turn speaking German, and it just freaked me out. It’s post World War II, you know? So but I was glad to get to southern Brazil because it's a different Brazil. You know, it's much different and it's quite beautiful. Quite beautiful. Yeah, as well as the Amazon is, and hopefully will be in the future.

Randolph Adams: Looking back on your tour of service, you've mentioned a number of accomplishments and wondered if there's any other things you wanted to add or were there any things that you felt you failed at regretted?

Norman Graham: Well, I think if I failed anywhere, it's because I didn't stay longer to see those projects through. But again, as I said before, I was an only child and had been accepted into undergraduate training at University of Pittsburgh, and I only had 10 days and I didn't know if I'd get another chance at that. I missed my folks. So if I had stayed another year, I'd see those projects through. Because I don't know what happened to them. I think the other thing is that, you know, it was pretty tough duty. And I was by myself, and, you know, that's that was pretty difficult so. But, you know, I handled it. But I had a lot, not a lot, but I'm sure it happens to most Peace Corps volunteers, lots of just, you know, somewhat disturbing dreams after afterward. Basically until 2004, when I went back to Brazil and we were touring around and I wanted to see where the prison was.

It wasn't there anymore because they were it was just supposedly temporary. They built a new one. And the whole area where that was not only it's been renamed, but it's built up, you know, it’s kind of working-class area now and with my Brazilian friend. And we'd asked, you know, where were the prison? Well, I guess there was one here. I don't know where it was. I think it's down that way, down below. So we were driving around, driving around, and we came to one area and I said, stop. This is the place. Not because I saw anything, it's because I felt something. And I walked around a little bit. And I walked through the little barbed wire fence and I saw where one of my prisoner friends used to play volleyball and soccer. No buildings anymore. But I saw the area and it just happened there was a policeman walking by and my Brazilian friend asked, does he know where the prison used to be? And he said, yeah right there. I don't know how I found it, but I just felt it so, but I haven't had a dream since.

Randolph Adams: What would be some lessons learned that you may have thought about over the years?

Norman Graham: Oh, I think the big one is, it's really pretty, probably pretty healthy to have two volunteers together an assignment like that or at least living in close proximity or rooming together, you know. I may be overdramatic about, you know, some of the things that affected me and I could have maybe used some corrective action, you know. But I think what I did was very positive. It gave some hope to people and so I think that, you know, that's one lesson learned. But I was out there as far as I know, was the only volunteer I've ever done anything like that at least up to that time. I don't know about, but it's pretty rugged duty. It helped with some peanut butter.

Randolph Adams: And how did your Peace Corps experience influence your plans for the future? Did it?

Norman Graham: Yeah, yeah. I came out of it pretty arrogant, saying I can do anything, you know. I got myself into some trouble actually doing, you know. When I went to University of Pittsburgh, they had this community lab and which was really a good idea that you would have this one little class out in the community on Friday mornings. It was just basically, it was the whole War on Poverty opportunity, and so is the study of the community. Yeah, like we did in the Peace Corps, actually studying the community, what's its assets? So the professor that was there was so much into poverty and we were talking about poverty every week, poverty every week. So I said, after a while in my arrogance, I said, I don't see any poverty. What do you mean you don’t see any poverty? Well, people around here, you know, are not starving. I haven't seen any khwajaworcore, which I saw in Brazil. I haven't seen any kids running around with extended stomachs, with worms coming out their butt. But yeah, people look relatively healthy. They may have some medical problems, but yeah, actually some of them are obese. They can go to medical care, that's like a bus, maybe two busses, but they can get the medical care. There are screens on their houses, lots of TVs. You don’t see aerials at that time. And I went on about it and I said, there are lots of stores that people can walk to. And I went on about some other things. My only C in graduate school.

And then I was interviewing for a job at the university. Fast forward about three years later. And I was recruited from, I was in the public health service after I did my master's degree out in Arizona with the Navajo Indians, and I got recruited and they'd be on the faculty of the university and I was going on about this experience that I just told you. And they said, who was this professor? I said, it’s Professor X. Oh, he's starting here this fall. I said, well, nice knowing you guys. Actually, it worked out well. The other the job I took, worked out really, very well anyway.

Randolph Adams: Could you comment on the three goals? You may not have thought of them while you were in service, but you know the goal one of providing technical assistance where requested, promoting a better understanding of Americans, and then promoting understanding of other people by Americans?

Norman Graham: Yeah, I think those last two, probably. You know, when I went to the prison, some of the prisoners there told me we thought you were with the CIA or the FBI. I said, what the heck would the CIA or FBI be interested in what's going on here? And oh yeah, we had a good laugh on that. But that was the time of you know, James Bond and all that stuff.

So but I think they were able to, you know, see me as an American, as just an ordinary person who was interested in them. And I think I've been, you know, able to convey that to, you know, when I, you know, when I had back in the States, when I had students, whether it be medical students or social work students or other students, I worked mostly work in the minority populations. Mostly all minority populations. And I would be very keen because these were mostly Caucasian students or medical students or residents or social work students. So what you're seeing in this chair, you know, when you're interviewing people, sometimes you play into stereotypes and you've got to remember these are some of the people who are not functioning that well. This wasn't mental health, chemical dependency. But there's a whole array of people you're not seeing out there that are well-educated, you know, like some just I had to keep that theme going, you know? So hopefully that rubbed off on someone. And then I think the other thing in terms of discussions I've had with either colleagues or neighbors or something about people in other countries, you know, hey people want the best for the kids. Education and so on, same things you do.

Randolph Adams: You mentioned you have stayed in touch with at least one friend. Had you maintained any other contacts with Brazil?

Norman Graham: No, not that. Yeah, that's it. Yeah.

Randolph Adams: What about with Peace Corps activities back here in the States?

Norman Graham: No, I'm not a groupie. You know, I went to some NORVA Northeast Ohio folks, and when I went, everybody was telling war stories and I didn’t want to hear that. And I guess it would have been OK when I'm just, if I was just out, I'd been out. Because I went because when I got out of Brazil, I went right into graduate school for two years and then I went to a reservation for two and a half years and then I came back to. When I came back, I got recruited to Cleveland to help start the Department of Psychiatry. I really didn't, you know, the only people I've kept contact with some Peace Corps volunteers that I was with in Brasilia and maintained those contacts.

Randolph Adams: I don't know if this is particularly a repeat of a previous question, but the last question in the guide is, what has been the effect of Peace Corps service on your life?

Norman Graham: Oh, I think it's something I could be very proud of, number one. And it's a legacy I think I passed on to my daughter, who's a 1Z energy consultant. Because she did that stint in the Dominican Republic and Mexico. And I think she's going to be helping people for many, many years in terms of energy. Well, it's something to be proud of, and, you know. It was a life, life growing experience.

Randolph Adams: Any final comments you'd like to make?

Norman Graham: No, I'm just so happy that somebody is interested in the story, that's all. And if it's helps other people or, you know, provides entertainment or whatever, and that's great.

Randolph Adams: Very good.

Norman Graham: If it makes the cutting room floor, I don't know. If it even makes the cutting room floor.

Randolph Adams: Well, I appreciate you taking the time to meet with me.

Norman Graham: Well, thank you as well.

Randolph Adams: I found it very interesting. Thank you.

Norman Graham: You're welcome.