Interviewer(s): I004
Interviewee(s): P452, P453

I004: Greetings Mama?

P452: I am fine thank you.

I004: How old are you?

P452: Forty eight years.

I004: During the time you were born, what major event did your parents speak of?

P452: I do not know. When I was growing up we used to herd and play only, that was our education.

I004: Which district were you born in?

P452: Iringa.

I004: What village?

P452: Kihemi.

I004: I would like to understand the family structure while you were growing up living with your parents, or with other siblings. What was the family structure like? Parents and children, or parents, children and uncles, grandparents and cousins or did you all stay in one home?

P452: We stayed with our parents in one home with my parents, brothers and sisters in one homestead but with other homes.

I004: How many other homes?

P452: Many others, because especially when boys grew up, they got to have their own space. There were about ten homes. My father had two wives. My mother was the second wife.

I004: Did you all live under one roof?

P452: No each wife had her own home.

I004: Did you live with other relatives like aunts or grandparents?

P452: No, we did not.

I004: While growing up what economic activities did your family engage in?

P453: Herding cattle only.

I004: What were the responsibilities of the men in the family growing up?

P452: Herding and buying food.

I004: And what about the responsibilities of women?

P452: Picking beadwork, milking the cows, and building houses.

I004: What about you young girls?

P452: Playing with other includes the Moran boys, fetching water, eating meat, cleaning ground and collecting firewood.

I004: Didn’t you help to herd the goats even?

P452: Yes we did, sometimes when the boys are sick.

I004: You mentioned playing in the forests with the boys, what games did you play.

P452: Singing and playing children’s games and catching animals and eating meat. We would even spend two months in the forest together.

I004: Girls could stay that long in the forest? There was no taboo for girls on eating meat and being in the forest? It was not an activity reserved for boys and men only?

P452: No, that is not true. Grown up women would not go but young girls could go

I004: What period is that when girls could eat meat alongside the boys with no issue?

P452: During the time before a young girl matures into womanhood.

P453: These young girls who have not yet celebrated woman hood are referred to as ‘Ndoiye’.

I004: So in those days ‘Ndoiye’ could join in eating meat with the boys?

P452: Yes they would.

I004: How about nowadays, can ‘Ndoiye’ still go to the forest and also eat meat with the boys?

P453: Not anymore because nowadays the young girls are in school and cannot spare two months in the forest with their male counterparts.

I004: You have mentioned that the girls go to school, what about the boys?

P453: The boys do not go either, well the ones who are in school cannot but the ones who do not still go to the forest and hunt wild animals. But when schools are closed they can then spend that time in the forest hunting and eating meat.

I004: How has this affected their transition from childhood to adulthood given that these traditions have affected such cultural practices?

P453: The boys who go to school are those who have already had their initiation ceremony not the others. The ones who go to the forest are the young ones called ‘Morani’.

P452: And the young girls who go are the ones called ‘Ndoiye’.

P453: Those who have not entered womanhood yet.

I004: So between what ages can they go to the forest?

P453: Starting from 7 years till 16 years and they can all have meat. No ugali and no milk. They do not eat anything else. They have water mixed with traditional medicines.

I004: Why is that?

P452: It gives them strength.

P453: It makes them healthier and they stay healthy for longer.

I004: What about the responsibilities of boys in those days, what were their roles?

P452: Herding, playing, that is it.

I004: How about fetching water or collecting firewood?

P452: No, boys cannot perform those tasks. The girls are the ones who would perform those tasks such as fetching water, collecting firewood and cooking.

I004: Why do you say boys cannot carry out such tasks?

P452: Because according to Maasai culture they cannot partake in such tasks.

I004: What would happen if a boy was found carrying out such tasks?

P452: It would not even happen because he would not agree to perform such a task.

I004: What about education in those days, how many in your family were able to go to school?

P452: I have not seen any of my siblings going to school.

I004: Thank you for your clear answers. Regarding foods, what foods would you say were eaten regularly in your family as you were growing up?

P452: Plantain, Potatoes, Cassava and rice.

I004: Which were eaten like every day?

P452: Rice.

I004: And what foods were rarely eaten?

P452: Like ‘kande’ mixture of maize and beans, there was plenty of food then. People would trade milk for chicken, cassava and plantain.

I004: During what season would people trade a lot of food items?

P452: During the dry season. They would trade with, milk, chicken and in other cases the men would buy food and the women would trade food items. Women did not have the liberty to sell the cows, only the men would.

I004: What other food items would you trade?

P452: Some would come buy items with money.

I004: Who would oversee this trade?

P452: My mother or the sisters-in-law.

I004: So this task was generally performed by women?

P452: Yes.

I004: What foods were prepared specifically for certain family members like mothers or children?

P452: None really, anything specialized was for the men. They may slaughter a fat goat and fry the meat and keep it aside to eat with his meals or he would allow you to serve it to a guest with his permission. We call this meat ‘orkondo’.

I004: What is ‘orkondo’?

P452: ‘Orkondo’ is dried meat stored in oil.

I004: What would happen if you ate some of this meat?

P452: It would be considered to be disrespectful.

I004: What would happen in that case?

P452: Nothing but he would talk about it. He may however say sometimes take some of that meat and give to my children. When we were growing up there were plenty of milk whether is dry season or wet season we had enough milk so we used to take milk and ugali most of the time.

I004: In those days, where would you source food from? You mentioned you would buy some food items?

P452: Yes, we would buy because in those days we did not even know how to cultivate. We depended on someone to bring or we would send the boys to go get some using the donkeys as we did not have bicycles or motorcycles. They would tie a bag called ‘ichogi’ to the donkey to carry food.

I004: You mentioned a time when you would trade with food items. Would that be done throughout or during some seasons?

P452: It was during the dry season.

I004: So when they would bring items to trade there would be no reason to buy?

P452: No. We would agree on what to trade for.

I004: Do you know if this is still practiced?

P452: No I do not know. I left there a long time ago. Although nowadays the Maasai are more educated and so are cultivating. They are growing rice.

I004: Where were they trained on growing rice?

P452: They just learn from others who are growing the same.

I004: You mentioned they saw others growing it and learnt from them. Who are these they learnt from, what tribes?

P452: The Sukuma’s and Nyakyusa’s

I004: What about fruits and vegetables which grow wild, would you use these?

P452: There was one called ‘ngandoloi’ which we would cook at home and eat with rice. We would usually eat more of meat with our meals, sometimes we would slaughter a sheep or even a cow with some disability would be slaughtered to provide meat because they could not be sold.

I004: While you were growing up, who would decide to buy food items for the home?

P452: My father.

I004: And who would he consult with on this?

P452: With the older Sons.

I004: While you were growing up, what would be used to determine that one has grown up? Say a girl growing up and can now be referred to as a young adult?

P452: For a girl the signs are visible for example when she reaches puberty.

I004: Once a girl reaches puberty what would be her role?

P452: In Maasai culture a girl can be engaged at birth and would be given one young cow as dowry. As the cow grows so does the girl once she reaches puberty, the mother would inform the father that it is now time for the young girl to go to her betrothed.

I004: And what about for male children?

P452: With the boys also it would be visible. By this time the father would find him a girl to marry.

P453: In Maasai culture, the boy does not look for a girl to marry. His father is the one who searches for a wife for him. The reason for this is that the young man may not understand the relation or reputation of the people where the girl is from.

I004: But what specifically would you observe to determine that a boy has reached puberty?

P453: We would look at his age unlike the Swahili who look at the level of independence of the young man to determine that he is ready to take on a wife. For us a boy is dependent on his father even after he has had two or three children and will decide on his own when it is time to move away. So you find him a wife, some will even find him a second and a third wife and he decides when to separate from his father.

I004: And so from what age is he said to have reached puberty?

P453: At the age of sixteen he is allowed to marry according to Maasai culture.

I004: And as for you ma’am, what marked your entry into adulthood?

P452: For me I observed my body changing, I was putting on weight and I reached puberty and started my menstruation period.

I004: Were there celebrations associated with this? How old were you when you had your initiation?

P452: Around 15 years.

I004: By the time you were being initiated, had you began your menstruation periods?

P452: No I had not yet begun.

I004: Why did you participate if you had not begun your menstruation periods?

P453: My father just decided because at the time there were many other girls being initiated.

I004: What would determine a girl who has reached puberty?

P452: The body would tell. In Maasai culture a girl wears one item of clothing and when the clothes no longer fit you know the girl has grown.

I004: How comes girls only wear one item of clothing in the history of Maasai culture?

P452: I do not know. It is a practice we found going on and followed. She only gets a second one after initiation.

I004: We are moving now to the next section regarding family make up when you moved to Mela.

P452: I was married in Mlandizi I moved from there to ‘Maili Ishirini’ then we moved here to Mela and we have been here about ten years.

I004: What caused you to move here?

P453: People buying the lands around so we had to move here because it is not good to live in someone’s land.

I004: Who do you live with here?

P453: My husband and my children.

I004: And what about your children?

P453: We have three children. The middle one is married and the other two are here with me, they are boys.

I004: And what about your in-laws?

P452: My father-in-law is deceased and my mother-in-law has gone to live with her daughter.

I004: What is the main income generating activity in your family?

P452: Animal rearing and farming as well.

I004: Of those which is the main one?

P452: Animal rearing.

I004: How is the lifestyle your now different from when you were growing up in Mlandizi perhaps regarding the economic activities?

P452: Yes there is a difference. While I was growing up, I used to eat without thinking about where the food is coming from and I spent time playing.

I004: I was asking about the economic activity?

P452: I was a child then and now my children are dependent on me as a mother.

I004: You have mentioned selling cows, does that mean this role has shifted to you now?

P452: No, it is the man’s role. He takes the cows to the auction for sale. He only leaves these tasks to me if he has travelled.

I004: How have these changes affected you and your family?

P452: None.

I004: How have you benefitted?

P452: We are okay.

P453: Perhaps I can add that now she is a mother with children dependent on her. As regards economic activities I can say we only herded, nowadays we cultivate. We never used to do so before in fact it was something looked down on. But we have come to see the importance and benefits of cultivating food. In fact some Maasai people are more dependent on cultivation than they are on livestock rearing.

I004: And how did you gain the knowledge on crop farming and its Importance?

P453: We get experts from the town that come to show us how to go about it.

I004: Tell me about the responsibilities of men and women in your community. We can start with the responsibilities of the men?

P452: Men take the cows to the auction and sell them. Once he has received the money, he buys food, sugar, clothes. We just receive. Sometimes he will ask me to accompany him to select items needed for the children like clothes or shoes or a watch.

I004: What about the responsibilities for women?

P452: Here in the home we milk the cows; we cook, fetch water and collect firewood.

I004: How are the tasks you perform now different from the tasks your parents performed while you were growing up?

P452: I would say nowadays we get on better with our husbands. While I was growing up women used to be beaten by their husbands.

I004: Why was that?

P452: I do not know. The men those days were like soldiers. But nowadays the money I get from rearing chicken is mine to keep.

I004: Speaking of rearing chicken, did your mother also keep chicken?

P452: Yes she did but my father sometimes would come home with a guest and ask to have a chicken given to the guest. My mother would have no choice but to give it.

I004: How is that different now?

P452: Nowadays I have my own chicken which I sell and sometimes I even sell the ones which belong to him but he does not say anything.

I004: So you have mentioned you rear chicken and sell them; do you eat chicken?

P452: Yes I do. Many people eat chicken my children also eat.

I004: How about your husband?

P452: Yes, him as well. In fact he eats a lot of chicken.

I004: How about in the old days?

P452: In the old days the Maasai were not bothered with chicken. It was not reared nor eaten.

I004: What has caused that change?

P452: I would say God has caused people to change their minds and become more receptive of things.

I004: How have these changes affected you? Selling chicken, men no longer beating their wives, some liberty to speak more freely?

P452: I would say it is by God’s grace. The presence of religion has brought about a lot of the change. Women nowadays have a voice and we can be heard.

P453: I would say it also has to do with the change in society. We inter-marry with other tribes and the laws also have brought about these changes, in the past a Maasai man would not discuss with his wife on anything. He alone would make decisions.

I004: I would like to know about the responsibilities of children in the home. How old are your children and what are the tasks of boys?

P452: They help to milk the cows and they herd.

I004: Any other tasks?

P452: They farm and even cook.

I004: Do any of your daughters live with you?

P452: No, my daughters are married.

I004: During the time they lived with you, what were some of their tasks?

P452: They would milk the cow, collect firewood, fetch water; we would also go to the farm and weed.

I004: Do you see any difference in the tasks your children do in your home from what you and your siblings did when you were growing up?

P452: Yes nowadays when our Maasai children get married, they say they are able to dialogue with their husbands and discuss and agree. In our days once a young lady was married she never returned home even for a visit but our children visit us.

I004: How have these changes affected you?

P452: I feel very happy when my children come to visit me. Nowadays even I am able to visit my mother by myself. Sometimes the men would think that if they let us go visiting we would stray but that is not the case anymore.

I004: What do you think brought about this change such that girls nowadays get married but return to visit their parents?

P452: I do not know, I think it is global changes I suppose. They see people out there changing and they also follow the change.

I004: Why were women in the past not allowed to go back home to visit?

P452: Because that was the tradition I suppose because women in the past were not valued, she had no say, she was just expected to be in the home and do what the husband would say. They lived like helpless people in prison, all that has come to an end.

I004: What brought about this change?

P452: I will say probably education and the word of God has nowadays even elders preach and as such has made them more compassionate.

I004: People have been talking about the change in diet and methods of food preparation. Nowadays people eat eggs, fish and even chips with eggs. They also fry their foods now and no longer boil.

P452: Yes they do, but I do not eat eggs. We even eat maandazi, rice pancakes these days.

I004: What do you think has brought about these changes in methods of food preparation?

P452: It surprises me too but I think it has to do with education, the word of God.

I004: So you have mentioned education and faith, which of these two caused the change for you?

P452: For me it was religion. In the past reputation was more important. Now that we have found religion, reputation seems rather unnecessary. We see the things we eat are good for health. We now eat beans and greens as opposed to milk and meat which was all we used in the old days.

I004: So you will attribute this to religion?

P452: Yes.

I004: What about education, has this been a change factor?

P452: Yes. When we go to seminars we learn more about the benefits of cultivation. We also learn about the government encouraging us to reduce our livestock numbers.

I004: The government directive to reduce livestock numbers, do you see this as educative?

P452: Yes because when we look at the drought, we lose a lot of animals and there were no enough pasture to sustain the animals.

I004: What about the education of children? Do you think this has affected the cooking methods?

P452: Yes. Like all my daughters are educated although one only completed primary school, the other one has reached secondary school but she kept on falling sick until she gave it up altogether.

I004: How about the availability of foods? Could this be a factor in the change to different foods you prepare?

P452: Yes because like now during the drought, our cows do not produce much milk unlike when we were young.

I004: What about rare use of certain foods because they are foods eaten more by people who are broke or poor? Say like ‘kididio’ do you think this is a factor for which people would eat more of meat perhaps?

P452: ’Kididio’ in Maasai culture is not a symbol of poverty we use it even today. It was a more popular vegetable while I was growing up, but not so much now.

I004: Why do you think that is?

P452: Nowadays people know about other vegetables. Also nowadays women have access to and can control their money and can therefore go into the cities and buy other food items like beans or potatoes. But in the old days, a woman could not even handle a hundred shillings so we could only have ‘kididio’.

I004: What dietary changes have you noted within the community; let us start with the changes you have observed with men’s diet.

P452: Their diet has changed because nowadays many of them eat chicken and when we prepare beans they eat. If there is no milk they will have vegetables made in water and are satisfied.

I004: Which are such vegetables made in water?

P452: Cassava leaves, cowpeas leaves, amaranth we fry it with cooking oil although in the past we never knew about cooking oil, we only used oil from cow products like ghee.

I004: How about with women?

P452: We have seen some changes because nowadays I like to have my tea with maandazi or chapati

I004: Where did you learn how to prepare and eat such foods?

P452: From training we receive from others and we understand this is development. We have also observed that in the old days of eating just ugali and meat we would hardly fall ill but nowadays even the children fall ill from time to time.

I004: How have all these changes you have mentioned affected you or your family?

P452: Nowadays we cultivate, when I ask for money to buy items I may receive it, if my husband has travelled I can take a cow to the market to sale.

I004: How has it affected you though?

P452: Nowadays if we are unwell we got to the hospital and get medication but in the old days we would take bitter traditional herbs for treatment.

I004: How have these changes affected your culture?

P452: Nowadays our children are educated so they no longer pierce their ears. Our children are also better informed on things not like us when we were young we would just play in the forest.

I004: Where do the children get this information?

P452: Through education.

I004: You mentioned that as a result of education the children no longer pierce their ears, how has this affected your culture?

P452: It has not affected the culture and it is right. They no longer agree to have their ears pierced even as children.

I004: Let us discuss about milk and its availability. Is milk of important to you?

P452: It is important because it is also useful for a mother who has given birth to be able to breastfeed the baby.

I004: How is it beneficial?

P452: It is healthy to have milk. Even in the clinic, I was advised to have half a litre of milk every day.

I004: When you prepare food, do you need to add milk to the foods you are cooking?

P452: Yes, we even have tea with milk.

I004: Why do you add milk to everything?

P452: Because we are used to it. When we eat ugali we must have milk, because milk is readily available. Even when I am thirsty, I must add water to my milk to quench my thirst.

I004: Why?

P452: I am just so used to it. Even my children usually ask for milk when they are eating.

I004: Do you use milk straight from the cow or do you boil the milk first?

P452: We use it straight from the cow.

I004: We have heard that there was a milk shortage and price hike, what do you think caused this shortage?

P452: Because of drought.

I004: Besides drought, what other reason?

P452: No rains means the lands and pastures are dry so not enough food supply for the cows.

I004: What about conflict?

P452: Yes that too but it has come about because of the drought.

I004: What about the tastes and preferences of people? What I mean is say nowadays milk is so popular that many people are taking it. Could this be a cause for the shortage?

P452: Yes to some extent because we really like milk.

I004: Let us discuss the purchasing of food items for the home. Who buys the food in your household?

P452: My husband.

I004: What food items does he buy?

P452: Maize.

I004: What else?

P452: Rice, some plantains, I may also trade chicken for cassava.

I004: Within your family, about how much money do you spend on buying food?

P452: I am not sure because my husband is the one who buys the maize; I only take it for grinding.

I004: Who decides what amount of the money will be allocated to buying food?

P452: He does it, but we usually discuss it and he usually tells me he sold a cow to get money for food for the children or for medication.

I004: How far do you go to buy food here where you live? And how far did you have to travel to buy food while you were growing up?

P452: It is closer now because people are selling maize not too far from here.

I004: What about for vegetables?

P452: There are people who walk around selling vegetables.

I004: What about when you were young, where would you get vegetables?

P452: We would go and harvest it ourselves from close to the dam.

I004: How about meat, eggs and fish?

P452: I do not eat fish. Only my husband does.

I004: Eggs?

P452: I do not eat it but my children do.

I004: Where do you get eggs?

P452: From our chicken here.

I004: How about beans and cowpeas?

P452: When I was young, we did not buy beans only ‘kididio’ and traditional vegetables. Other times we heat up the fat from the cow and eat that with our food and add salt.

I004: What about having that fat nowadays?

P452: No, no, we do not have it nowadays.

I004: Why not?

P452: I do not know. Perhaps because nowadays we have sugar so we do not feel like eating the fat.

I004: What foods used to be available in the market when you were young that are no longer available nowadays?

P452: I do not really know. The men are the ones who know.

I004: Sir please tells us about these foods?

P453: I would say pawpaw, oranges, and fruits in general perhaps due to drought. What is available in the market nowadays come from very far.

I004: What foods do you prepare for your family?

P452: Ugali and rice.

I004: Earlier you mentioned you would get cassava or plantain.

P452: Yes there are people who come from Mlandizi who come around selling them.

I004: How do you determine what you will cook for your family on a daily basis? What influences your decision?

P452: I like for my children to eat the food they like so I prepare good food so they can enjoy and this makes me happy.

I004: Besides that which makes you happy, what other factors influence your decision on what to cook?

P452: Perhaps hunger.

I004: What about foods that is easier to prepare, would this be a reason?

P452: Yes like with rice, I will put it on the fire and go on to other tasks.

I004: What about the availability of certain foods, could this be a reason as well?

P452: I would say just my preference.

I004: Whose preference is of the greatest influence?

P452: My husband usually will buy what is available and we will cook whatever he brings home.

I004: Who influences what you will cook the most, you husband or children?

P452: Neither, I decide it on my own.

I004: What is the main reason you cook the food you normally cook?

P452: It is just because of my husband and my children.

I004: Of the reasons you have mentioned which is the greatest influence in making you decision?

P452: I would say it is because of the children and my husband.

I004: Did you ever experience drought and hunger when you were young?

P452: I do not recall, I have not experienced it.

I004: During the milk shortage, how did you manage that situation?

P452: We would just eat the meat even of a dead cow.

I004: How about now in your adult life, have you experienced hunger and famine?

P452: Last year.

I004: When did it start?

P452: Around October to March. Many cows died.

I004: What was the cause of that hunger?

P452: The drought, there were no enough pasture for the cows and so they died. Interviewer	How did you survive the situation?

We did so by selling our goats as they were in good condition for sale otherwise we would not have fetched much.

I004: Did this affect the amount of food you would have feed your family?

P452: No we did not. It only meant we bought food at higher prices especially maize flour. But we would eat rice as well.

I004: You said as parents you felt the pinch, how were you affected?

P452: We would sell a cow at TSH 200,000 down from the usual price of TSH 600,000, the cows were very thin.

I004: Thank you very much for your responses. We are nearing the end of our interview; we just have a few more questions left to conclude. Where and how have the people of Mela received information on food and nutrition and health?

P452: We have not really had seminars here on that, perhaps at the hospitals.

I004: And what about on the radio?

P452: Yes, we have also heard it from the radio.

I004: How does this advice benefit you?

P452: I found it beneficial because I was advised on good foods to eat when I was pregnant.

I004: How was that beneficial to you?

P452: It was beneficial because I had a fat and healthy baby.

I004: How can information on health and nutrition be beneficial to the families?

P452: Through talks and training. For example, with the spread of religion our men became more receptive to eating different types of foods.

I004: But how can we reach the people of Mela to share such information on foods, nutrition and health?

P452: Perhaps through a seminar.

I004: And by what other means?

P452: Just a seminar will do.

I004: How do we disperse the information to the people? Is it through the radio, in schools, in health centres, in the churches?

P452: Perhaps we can write letters to formally request to have a seminar. Interviewer	I meant how do we convey the message to people?

By holding seminars in the schools like ones we have had in the past on agriculture.

I004: Are you suggesting we come to the schools and give the training to the children or what did you mean?

P452: No. I meant you invite people to attend the seminar at the school.

I004: And what channels do we use to get his information to the people, like channelling the information through the village elders?

P452: No. The information would not reach us well by that channel.

I004: So what would you recommend?

P452: Through people like yourselves

I004: Okay. Thanks ma’am, we have completed our interview.

P452: Thank You.