Interviewer(s): Henry
Interviewee(s): Lilah

Henry: Okay. Thanks for letting me record. Your real name will not be used and your organization will not be directly named. Do you have any questions for me before we start.

Lilah: No.

Henry: Great. So where are you located?

Lilah: [Location]

Henry: Okay. And how old are you?

Lilah: [early 30s].

Henry: And what's your job?

Lilah: I'm a registered nurse.

Henry: Is that what you were doing in January? 2020? Yes. What kind of unit are you want.

Lilah: I'm in the resource department, so I float to like ten different medical surgical units right now. But in 2020 at the, the time that you're thinking of, I was on a general medicine floor.

Henry: Can you tell me about when you first heard about COVID.

Lilah: I first started really hearing about it in February of 2020 and I had actually flown out to California at that time and we were just starting to hear that there was some virus going on and people weren't wearing masks in the airport. There was maybe like one mask, but I was starting to get, starting to get nervous about like flying back from California just because it seemed like that was something we should be concerned about.

Even though nobody in the airport was really paying attention to it.

Henry: So can you tell me about your initial thoughts about the new virus?

Lilah: Um, um, it definitely seemed concerning, but I was hopeful that it was something that would just go away but it seemed to keep, you know, picking up speed and in the media and the newspaper and stuff, and it didn't seem to want to go away.

Henry: What did you expect.

Lilah: Hmm.

That is a good question. It's hard to think about now knowing what happened and what I expected at the time I guess I, I don't know. I expected it to go away and then and maybe not expected, but I hoped that it would go away.

Henry: Why?

Lilah: I guess being in health care, the thoughts of what would happen if it actually turned into the situation that it did end up turning into, was pretty terrifying.

Yeah. I think about like SARS, which like kind of happened but was more located in China and didn't really like leave that area when they had that outbreak.

But this definitely seem different.

Henry: SARS made it to Toronto.

Lilah: Did it, but then it stopped there.

Henry: Yeah. Also in in Hanoi, there's a very bad outbreak in a hospital Yeah. A lot of nurses died and they learned some lessons from that. That's why their initial COVID response was so good.

Lilah: I guess it’s good we learned some lessons, but then I guess things like Ebola like kind of popped up and like, which like kind of pop up in a few different places and then go away and so.

Henry: So you compared it to SARS and Ebola, both of which went away. So were you hoping that this would follow the same path?

Lilah: Yeah, even H1N1, which was something that, like nurses who have been working longer than me dealt with and they're like, yeah, it can't be worse than that.

Henry: Any other reasons for hope?

Lilah: That's all we have The only thing that keeps us going.

Henry: I mean, how long did you expect it to go on for.

Lilah: I had heard from people looking back at the the flu epidemic in like 1918 that it took at least three years for things to start to go back to normal, whatever that means. So I had that in the back of my mind, but I was hoping it would be sooner, but several years, if not forever.

Henry: Okay. So let's go back to this January March 2020 period. You're in California. You see, you're getting a little worried maybe in the airport Can you describe how you felt about this time?

Lilah: Let's see. I was definitely interested in like what was going on. But again, just hoping that it was something that would go away and like it was in China, you know, it wasn't near us at that time. So it was hopefully something that they would deal with over there and it wouldn't make it to where we are. So I was… I don't know, I was distracted and hoping that it was something that I wouldn't have to think about too much.

Henry: Did you have a eureka moment when you realized how bad it would be?

Lilah: Yes, I was literally driving to work. The roads were like completely empty. There were no cars on the road because they were just starting lockdown It was terrifying that I had to go to work, even though Covid was there and they had those, like those road signs up that would, like, tell you information, and it just had a link to like COVID-19 and the Health Department.

And that literally, like, gave me goosebumps That was it. It solidified that this is real and it's not going away. And I'm driving to work and this sucks.

Henry: But before then, though, were these lockdowns a surprise?

Lilah: I would say before that, it was like I didn't realize until the day that they did it, like the day that they shut everything down here I was at a restaurant with one of my friends and I was like, this is probably the last time we're going to be able to go out. Like, they were like, like disinfecting all the tables and there was barely anyone there.

And I was like, We probably shouldn't be here.

But before then, I didn't I didn't really know what anyone was going to do. It seems like every decision that was made kind of came out of nowhere.

Henry: Like the lockdown decisions.

Lilah: Kinda. I mean, they they were like concerned. They didn't really know what to do. And then they just shut everything down.

Henry: But they shut down in, I mean, March right? So OK, so you said you see this in China. You think, okay, maybe it's a Chinese problem. It's over there. It's not over here. Right?

So do you remember when it was in Italy?

Lilah: Probably. I feel like it was around March, April, around the same time that New York City was getting hit bad Do you know when was it in Italy? Was it right after New York City?

Henry: Just before.

Lilah: Okay.

Henry: I mean, Iran also got hit.

Lilah: I remember like watching all the video. Like, that was terrifying.

Henry: You’re Breaking up.

Lilah: I remember watching videos of like, nurses working in health care, like specifically in Italy when they were getting slammed. But I guess it's kind of hard to piece the timeline together cause I was paying attention to it, but, like, what I knew was it wasn't here.

Henry: So you see these videos and what do you think.

Lilah: It's scary. It's terrifying because they're in crisis mode. Like specifically Italy and New York City were slammed before pretty much anywhere else in the world. And we're just watching their health care systems collapse and people dying and not know what to do. And it's not here yet, but you know that you're anticipating that that is what's going to happen at your hospital.

Henry: So how did you prepare for this.

Lilah: So when we were over prepared for the first wave because it was hitting other places like New York City and Italy and um, the hospital cleared out essentially all the patients that didn't need to be there, a lot of patients that were awaiting placement in other places and we hired a lot of travel nurses to prepare for the coming waves that didn't really come.

So we were actually really overstaffed at the time. To the point where I got to stay home a lot of March and April 2020, which was really nice.

Henry: And you personally like.

Lilah: We kind of just like bunkered down. [husband’s] sister who is living in the Bronx with her fiancee – [name] - kind of booked it out in New York City the day before. They shut everything down and stayed with us for eight months. So yeah, we just had our own little bubble here. [...]

Henry: Okay, so you said you kind of prepared at the hospital did you have any of the PPE shortages?

Lilah: We did not experience that, but we did have things in place like you could wear, like one mask for the whole day type of thing. Like they were restricting the PPE to avoid a situation Okay.

Henry: Do you remember speaking in the January, February, March period do you remember speaking with any of your coworkers about this?

Lilah: Yeah, definitely. We were all talking about it.

Henry: Can you describe some of those conversations?

Lilah: Yeah, people were definitely afraid. Like some people that were younger than me, like in their early twenties, who were more used to going out all the time, did not know what to do with themselves, and were kind of freaking out at the loss of being able to go see their friends. Or like travel nurses that just didn't have any support in the area to help them work through their emotions were having a really hard time. A lot of people's like mental health was definitely suffering. Like even my nurse manager who I went to going to talk to, to just talk about how people are not doing OK. She was freaking out, so there wasn't really like anyone to go to at that time that seemed to be able to tell you that it would be okay.

Henry: So do those conversations change how you perceive the coming crisis?

Lilah: Um, I would say yes. I was trying to be hopeful about it and like, yeah, this is totally just like the flu. It's not going to be any worse than that. Even though knowing what I knew from past epidemics and the way that this was being handled seemed different. I wanted to believe that it would be OK. But seeing everybody reacting to it in their own way made it seem more real and like it probably was something bigger than that.

Henry: So so it seemed to be being handled differently Yeah, How so?

Lilah: Between my coworkers, like their reactions to it.

Henry: I mean, handled differently. You mean like in terms of government response to your hospitals response or what?

Lilah: I think just dealing with their emotions about how they, they felt about this because there wasn't a lot of information coming from anywhere and people are trying to process how they felt about what was coming, like what this meant, because nobody really knew.

Henry: Those emotions being.

Lilah: Like scared, anticipating what's to come, expecting the worst, just the fear of the unknown and the isolation of being told that you can't, you know, go anywhere see anybody that you would normally go to for support. So it almost felt like coming to work was like our way to be able to, like, talk to people and get those emotions out.

Henry: You know, you're not the first person to say something like that. Actually, I think a few people have said have described, you know, seeing this very big thing in motion and realizing to some extent that it's going to be this major, this major tragedy, and just putting their noses down to the work and focusing on the individual patient care.

Lilah: Yeah. That's a big part of it because when it comes down to it, that needs to continue. And at least you can feel like you're still doing something productive, you know, while everybody is at home wondering what's going to happen.

Henry: So anything you wish that […] so you see this thing about to happen I mean, there's like a few months. I mean, there's like even if you will, in February. Mm hmm. So is there anything that you'd like to tell me about that month.

Lilah: Hmm. It's interesting thinking back on it, like trying to remember how I felt before, knowing how I feel now.

I think there was just a lot of anticipation and, like, a lot of chatter about, like, what would happen. Like, I just remember talking to, like, one of the orderlies at the hospital, just like. So you think this is going to be a problem? And he's like, nah, it's just going to be like the flu. And then we just, like, go on with our life.

And it's just like, you know, hoping that it's not going to come until it actually did.

Henry: Was that a common perception?

Lilah: I think so. Yeah. It's almost like that movie that just came out. Don't look up where it's like you can just, like, pretend like it's not going to be there even though it's right in your face.

Because we all want to be hopeful, you know, that it's not going to be a problem. And I still see people doing that. Like, maybe, maybe this is the last wave. You know, maybe it will go away when we very well know that it's not.

Henry: As long as they don't make any new names.

Lilah: Right.

Henry: If they stay on Omicron they're not going to make an Omega.

Lilah: Yeah. And if we like, we stop counting the numbers and we don't look at them, then it's fine. I think there's just some comfort in that.

Henry: Yeah, we just hit a million.

Lilah: I know. And I was literally crying at like, I don't know, 100,000. 200,000. When you really think about the scope of what that number is, but like, who's crying over these numbers anymore?

Henry: You know.

Lilah: We just hit a million and nobody's talking about it.

That's crazy.

Henry: Was anyone freaking out there? Was anyone panicking? Oh.

Lilah: Yeah, definitely. One of my coworkers who is a travel nurse, she told me that she was having suicidal thoughts. Another one of my coworkers, like she was crying in the locker room and just like, you know, I had to comfort her and just just because she was scared and didn't know what to expect. And this was all before COVID was even in [state].

I probably March or April, I'd say probably closer to April.

Henry: Is there anything you wish that your unit or your hospital did differently.

Lilah: I think they did a really good job with the information that they had at the time in terms of like PPE and offering support or maybe a little bit more support from the start in terms of mental health. But I don't think they even realized how people are reacting because it was right in the moment at the time.

Henry: Anything you would that you would have done differently as an individual.

Lilah: I don't think so. I think we did the best that we could with the information that we had at the time.

Henry: What else would you like to tell me about the way you felt in early 2020?

Lilah: Hmm, I don’t know. I mean, I guess just to emphasize the how how terrifying it was, and especially like like before we were face to face with it, like that month or two that I was staying home from work, it was so much harder to go back just because I didn't know what it was going to be like when I showed up there.

But, you know, once you got there, it wasn't so bad. And even working with the COVID patients, knowing what you had to do at that time wasn't so bad. But I guess it was the fear of the unknown for me that that made it the scariest for okay.

Henry: What do you think I should have asked that I didn't.

Lilah: Hmm, That is a good question. I feel like I think on that one a little bit and let you know if I come up with anything.

Henry: And what else would you like to tell me.

Lilah: Hmm, I don't know. I just definitely think I'm interested in what you'll find out with all these interviews, because I definitely think there's something there I'm interested in in other people's perspectives and what they thought.

Henry: Okay. Yeah. So, I mean, I am happy to fill you in on what I’ve found so far.

Lilah: Yeah, cool.

Henry: OK, so generally there's a general pattern, right? Because the timeline is the timeline. It springs up in one China walks down about mid January. And it's at that point where a certain logic exists and that logic is this spreads insanely rapidly. And the Chinese Communist Party would not have done this drastic action - which is unprecedented in history, by the way - They would not have done this drastic action on there during the only holiday if it was not necessary.

I don't I don't think it's the 17th or the 18th - it is on the 13th that Thailand reports its first case. So it's already out of China by that point. And you know, no other country, including America, has the capability of locking down like China. Right. So from that point thinks are kind of set so people but for whatever reason, people don't still think it's going to be a problem.

So what are those reasons? Right. So essentially you can boil it down to socio political jurisdiction. So, you know, the reasons for this denial was cognitive dissonance because the numbers are there but people don't believe that the numbers are going to have this effect because of these reasons. So denial, American exceptionalism, you know, trust in our government or organizations or hierarchies, those are really the big three.

And also you know, these comparisons with past, past epidemics and past all these SARS never really hit Ebola, never really hit the HIV hit very badly. But it was not personal danger to medical providers. And it did not - you could escape it by following certain patterns of behavior, which are pretty easy for a lot of people and that so that that's really the pattern.

You have these cognitive things that get in the way, and then once it hits Italy, people start freaking out with this. It sort of realized that it's going to be so bad in America. They still misjudge the volume because of, you know, this is America, things don’t hit here. And we have the CDC we have the NIH, we have all these organizations that have very smart people that will stop this and also normalcy bias.

Yeah.

Lilah: Yeah. You are definitely on to something there. That's all very, very interesting stuff. But I hear the baby crying. I hear so I'm glad we were able to do this.

Henry: Thank you. Thank you very much!

Lilah: Yeah, of course. It was just in time, but we'll chat more later. Sound good?

Henry: Yes, sounds good. So say hi to [Names] for me.