Paul Clark Oral History Interview
Interviewer(s): Jack Franklin Davies
Interviewee(s): Paul Clark

Jack Franklin Davies: Now it is, OK. Testing one, two, three. It looks like it's working. I'll try to fool around with the playback tonight, so whoever is listening to this on the other end at the Kennedy Center, hello. Let's get started. My name is Jack Davies. I'm a returned Peace Corps volunteer from the Fiji Islands from 1978 through '80, which was Group 31. I have the pleasure today of interviewing Paul Clark, who was a volunteer in Fiji from 2005 to 2007. He was an environmental advisor in the Cuvu village, which is actually spelled C-U-V-U. The C is pronounced T-H. Anyhow, that's close to Sigatoka, and I'm going to let Paul take it from there. So how are you doing, Paul?

Paul Clark: Hi, Jack. Yeah, I'm doing, I'm doing great. Thanks so much for taking the time up in sunny Anchorage.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah. Well, it's my pleasure to be here, and it is a beautiful day today. Anyhow, so how did you hear about the Peace Corps and what got you interested in it?

Paul Clark: Well, that's a good question. I guess like lots of momentous decisions I've made in my life, it was just sort of coincidental that someone mentioned Peace Corps to me. So I was finishing up in my active duty time in the Army.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, in the Army.

Paul Clark: Which I was an air defense artillery officer down in Fort Bliss, Texas. And so trying to figure out, well, what comes next? And one of my fellow officer friends said, well, you should do the Peace Corps. And I'd certainly heard of the Peace Corps, it's a well-known organization, but I honestly hadn't thought about, hadn't thought about going in. And this was in, I guess, 2003.

Jack Franklin Davies: OK.

Paul Clark: And so I thought about it a little bit and I thought, well, you know, she's right. That sounds really interesting. And so I was also interested in doing graduate school following my time in the Army. So my undergraduate degree's in history, and I had pursued some PhD programs but actually didn't get accepted. So I was thinking, OK, well, what else? And so then started looking at, well, how does, how can we connect grad school as well as its potential for Peace Corps? And so I ended up going to graduate school at the University of Montana. And they were part of the Master's International program that I don't think is running anymore. But it's where the Peace Corps would essentially serve as my research time. So it would be incorporated into the graduate program. And the graduate program was a master's of science in resource conservation. And so that's how it came to be. I applied for graduate school and for the Peace Corps at the same time.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, interesting. And the Peace Corps called first?

Paul Clark: That is a good question.

Jack Franklin Davies: Because I seem to recall waiting quite a while to hear from them.

Paul Clark: It did take a, it did take a while. Yeah, I think. I think continues to still take. I don't remember the exact timeline.

Jack Franklin Davies: Was Fiji your first offer?

Paul Clark: Fiji was my first offer.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, lucky you.

Paul Clark: Yeah. So I got the call. I had already, in fact. So graduate school must have been first because I was at, I was in Missoula at the University of Montana when I got the call. I think it was already spring semester and so the recruiter or the placement officer said, well, what do you? I've got a place for you. Because as part of the Master's International program, I knew that it would be in the environment field.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, OK.

Paul Clark: That was it. I didn't put any preference for location because my Spanish and French skills are pretty basic, so it wouldn't make the cut for the programs that had that language requirement. But other than that, I was wide open.

Jack Franklin Davies: But you do have an aptitude for languages then. Did you learn Fijian?

Paul Clark: I did. I did. Yeah, and it's, um, that was one of my motivations for going into the Peace Corps. I was, I really love languages and love trying to learn them. It's, I have an aptitude for it, I would say. But of course, it's still a challenge.

Jack Franklin Davies: So before we get too far into Fiji. So what did you do with all your stuff, your personal belongings and everything while you were gone for two years?

Paul Clark: While I was gone. Well, I originally grew up in Helena, Montana, so it was only a hundred miles away and I had moved up. I finished active duty service with the Army in 2003, moved stuff back up to Montana, and I think my, uh, I think my dad absorbed it all in his house and some went to my brother. I actually loaned my car to a friend for a couple of years. So, yeah, I didn't have too much still.

Jack Franklin Davies: Sounds like a win win.

Paul Clark: I was young and pretty young and single and little more than just what could fit in the car.

Jack Franklin Davies: I want to ask you, did the Army help prepare you for Peace Corps?

Paul Clark: Yes and no. Yes in that you certainly need to learn to adapt. You're going to be flexible to a variety of environments, could be adverse conditions, but pretty flexible and flexible in coming into a situation just trying to understand what's happening there and acclimating.

Jack Franklin Davies: A little survival training too, right?

Paul Clark: A little bit, a little bit. Not as much as maybe you would hope for. I bet they do more of it now, but I'd say no in that the Army is pretty structured.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah.

Paul Clark: And there's the right way to do it and wrong way. Now there is room for creativity and thinking on your feet and all. But then the Peace Corps and especially Fiji and Fiji time, right, was a polar opposite. But I will say that the Fijians that I worked with, especially the indigenous Fijians, really highly respected military service.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh yeah.

Paul Clark: And so they were actually really confused. How? Why on earth would I have gotten out of the Army? Which is this prestigious occupation that many of them, especially the men, hope to be able to go serve with the British military or others. And here I am, choosing to get out of the Army and to come to Fiji as a Peace Corps volunteer. So that confused them a little bit.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah. Uh-huh. Interesting. You mentioned Fiji time. Tell me what that is.

Paul Clark: So it's just the sort of non clock based, much slower pace, you know, I think often general sense of island time.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah. OK.

Paul Clark: So in Fiji, specifically what I can remember is, it seemed like if I would press and say, well, when is this event going to start? It would either start at 9:00 or at 1:00. And nine o'clock meant sometime in the morning, probably before lunch, and one o'clock meant probably sometime before dinner.

Jack Franklin Davies: Or maybe tomorrow.

Paul Clark: And tomorrow was potentially never.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm sure we would call the coconut wireless.

Paul Clark: Oh, indeed, indeed. Among Peace Corps volunteers. Now, of course, in my era we did have email.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh.

Paul Clark: So we weren't all connected quite like I imagine volunteers are now, but we could go to an internet cafe and actually be in touch.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh boy, that's a big difference. Well, I want to hear all about that when we talk about Fiji a little bit more but.

Paul Clark: You bet.

Jack Franklin Davies: Where did you learn the language? Where was your training held?

Paul Clark: So our training was just outside of Suva at, I believe it's called Nandave, and it was a vocational training center for, I can't remember if it's young men and women or just young men.

Jack Franklin Davies: OK.

Paul Clark: But we held about, we were there for about two weeks, I believe. And then we went out with host families at a series of villages. And unfortunately, I can't right off the top of my head remember the name of my fantastic village where we did our training.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah, we should have a map in front of us, but maybe we can reference one later on.

Paul Clark: Sure.

Jack Franklin Davies: OK, so two weeks and then a village stay. Or several villages.

Paul Clark: So we were each assigned to different villages. There was a group of, I'd say, about five of us in the village. And so there was a language trainer and we learned the standard Fijian or known as the Bauan language. And so that was the, that was our kind of primary schooling. And then our host family, you know, would help with that too. And so I was with a family, with a mother, her adult daughter, and then the daughter's two children.

Jack Franklin Davies: OK.

Paul Clark: And all of the, the elder, the grandmother there, she knew some English, but she wouldn't speak it to me. She knew that I was supposed to learn Fijian.

Jack Franklin Davies: Good for her.

Paul Clark: And the kids, the kids helped. So I would say I had a wonderful family who really took an interest in helping me learn the language.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, that's great. Yeah, nice. So from the language, so you did all your training in country?

Paul Clark: Yes, except for a three-day pre-service in Los Angeles.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, just staging.

Paul Clark: The staging, exactly.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah, OK.

Paul Clark: But yes, the rest was in Fiji.

Jack Franklin Davies: Did you happen to drink kava while you were in the training?

Paul Clark: Yeah, apparently that was definitely a key part of the training.

Jack Franklin Davies: So tell us about kava.

Paul Clark: We did. So kava, or in Fijian known as yagona, which is made from the roots of a pepper plant. And it was sort of humorously called dirty water, but it kind of looks and kind of tastes like dirty water. But it's, you know, it's common in really across a lot of Pacific islands and Fiji, they get in into the drinking yagona. It's part of just every community.

Jack Franklin Davies: It's kind of like the passport into a village, as I recall,

Paul Clark: It is, it is. It's part of what's called the sevusevu or offering when. So if you're going into a new place, including when we got to our sites and even, you know, when we certainly the ground had already been laid for us to the training, the training villages. But my guess is that there was one of the Fijian Peace Corps staff went in and did a sevusevu where they offer a big bundle of kava and some kind of ceremonial talk goes back and forth.

Jack Franklin Davies: Did you ever learn the presentation of the kava?

Paul Clark: Not, not perfectly.

Jack Franklin Davies: Because usually the chief would have a spokesperson, but I learned it if you'd like to hear a little bit of Fijian for the record, or would you like to say something?

Paul Clark: Oh, it's too rusty.

Jack Franklin Davies: Well, let's have a little conversation. Ni sa bula, Paul.

Paul Clark: Sa bula vinaka.

Jack Franklin Davies: Sa vacava tiko? How are you?

Paul Clark: Uh, sorry, I have some Spanish mixed in there now too.

Jack Franklin Davies: Isn't that how it goes?

Paul Clark: Yeah.

Jack Franklin Davies: Well, let me do this sevusevu, because I should have brought some kava to present to you because I'm here in your office. So let's just pretend that this recorder is some yagona. [speaks Fijian] So that was in the northern island dialect, which probably sounded a little different than what you're used to speaking.

Paul Clark: A little bit. But excellent. Well done. Well done.

Jack Franklin Davies: I remembered it over the years, and practiced it.

Paul Clark: I think certainly mine's gotten rusty. But yeah, so I did learn a little bit, but definitely in. And so where I was located in Cuvu village was in western Viti Levu. So the main island, about a little closer between Nadi and Suva.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, OK. Sigatoka. On the south side, I believe.

Paul Clark: Right. And just about six miles west, right next to the Shangri- La Fijian Resort. So big, big resort along the coral coast.

Jack Franklin Davies: Nice.

Paul Clark: And the language there is, linguists considered a separate language.

Jack Franklin Davies: Do they?

Paul Clark: And so. So for example, [speaks Fijian], right? I'm full or I'm hungry in the nandrolone dialect is [speaks Fijian]. So it's just, it's just different. Even grammatically, there's some structural differences so that the present tense indicator is at the end of the sentence. So there's enough changes both in the grammar, the lexicon, and just the sounds, the phonics of it.

Jack Franklin Davies: Did you have much trouble learning Fijian?

Paul Clark: Uh, probably learning well, just because most people's English was better than my Fijian would ever get. So they would typically speak to me in English, and if we were actually doing something official or business as opposed to actually just sort of banter or practicing with the language, mostly it was in English. So it was kind of on my own as more of a hobby. And I, all throughout, I was trying to learn the dialect and actually put together a little tiny dictionary of about three pages of words and phrases for volunteers that were going to follow behind me.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, OK.

Paul Clark: In the area. But I never got. In retrospect, I wish I would have made more effort to learn the dialect because that's what they could understand the standard Fijian.

Jack Franklin Davies: That's what endears you to the people, I think.

Paul Clark: Exactly.

Jack Franklin Davies: And how were you received in the village when you first got there?

Paul Clark: Definitely, definitely friendly. And we were supposed to have our own housing when we got there at that time, for the Fiji groups at the time, and there was not housing available for me yet. So I stayed with my counterpart's family.

Jack Franklin Davies: Counterpart being somebody else at the office?

Paul Clark: No, the counterpart is sort of my main coworker, the main person.

Jack Franklin Davies: Fijian counterpart?

Paul Clark: Fijian counterpart, exactly, my main contact in the village. The person that I worked most closely with through the two years. And so, yeah, we definitely had the, certainly had the sevusevu.

Jack Franklin Davies: I'm sure you did. How long do you recall staying with him before you did get another place?

Paul Clark: It was about four months.

Jack Franklin Davies: OK.

Paul Clark: And that was a, that was a stressor for my time. Just because if I knew all along it was going to be with a host family, then it would have been fine. But the expectation was to have my own space and.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, I see.

Paul Clark: And in a cross-cultural setting, it's kind of nice to have a home base where you can just kind of decompress and relax. And especially I'm more on the introverted side.

Jack Franklin Davies: Really?

Paul Clark: So Fijian culture is not on the introverted side. Really social.

Jack Franklin Davies: It's probably where I picked it up.

Paul Clark: You might have fit very well. So it's. So that was a point of contention. I actually left my site for a few weeks and was potentially going to move to another site. And they said, OK, no, wait, we've got a place for you.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, that's good.

Paul Clark: And fixed up one of the teacher's quarters at the primary school. So I ended up being living on the just outside of the village on the school grounds.

Jack Franklin Davies: Nice. So what would an ordinary day look like?

Paul Clark: Oh, that's a great question.

Jack Franklin Davies: If there is such a thing.

Paul Clark: There wasn't. Yeah. One day a week there would be community work. And that's, I think, was usually Mondays.

Jack Franklin Davies: Like farming or what?

Paul Clark: If it was cutting the grass or clearing the ibulubulu, the cemetery there.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, yeah.

Paul Clark: So it would be kind of whatever the community had going on.

Jack Franklin Davies: OK, so that was one day of the week.

Paul Clark: So that was one day. And then like I think a lot of Peace Corps volunteers, I feel like my biggest job was figuring out what my job was supposed to be. And so what I ended up kind of shaping was, since I was at the school and there was certainly a need at the school. Well, teacher was not part of the job description or anything, I just found a need there. So I actually organized the books in the library and started a checkout system and started an environment club for middle schoolers.

Jack Franklin Davies: Middle school. OK, so what ages would that have been?

Paul Clark: So it would have been. The school was equivalent of like first through eighth grade. So it would, it was primarily 12, 13 year olds.

Jack Franklin Davies: So sixth, seventh, eighth.

Paul Clark: Exactly.

Jack Franklin Davies: As we understand.

Paul Clark: Yeah, yeah. And so that was about. And I worked with the slow English readers as well, just giving them some one-on-one time. And so that equated to about two full days a week. And then really the other days there was nothing standard. There was nothing.

Jack Franklin Davies: Except Sunday maybe.

Paul Clark: Sunday was a day of rest.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah. And church probably.

Paul Clark: And church, absolutely. So I would typically go to the local church, which was Methodist.

Jack Franklin Davies: Methodist, yeah.

Paul Clark: And then afterwards, we would usually go to someone's house and have a meal and sit and watch some rugby on TV.

Jack Franklin Davies: That's a popular pastime.

Paul Clark: Maybe a little different than your experience.

Jack Franklin Davies: OK. You just said TV. Now we didn't have TV back in '78. Do you remember when it came about?

Paul Clark: No.

Jack Franklin Davies: But it was there when you got there?

Paul Clark: It was there when I got there and it was primarily, um, people watch movies. So there were DVDs as well. But otherwise it was, Fiji One was the main channel. And then if it was, if it was other programing, kind of Western programing, it mainly came from

Jack Franklin Davies: BBC?

Paul Clark: From New Zealand.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, New Zealand.

Paul Clark: Yeah.

Jack Franklin Davies: New Zealand, Australia, about a thousand miles away each. So you had TV. That means you must have had electricity.

Paul Clark: I did. I did.

Jack Franklin Davies: Lucky guy.

Paul Clark: I had electricity and most of the time I had running water.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, OK. And lights I assume, with the electricity?

Paul Clark: Yes.

Jack Franklin Davies: OK.

Paul Clark: Yeah. Light. You know, really pretty, pretty nice housing, I even rented a refrigerator.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, wow.

Paul Clark: While I was there, which was my finest luxury, and I don't regret it one day.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah, you probably had lots of visitors. Were you able to keep anything cold in there?

Paul Clark: Not, not too bad.

Jack Franklin Davies: I'm alluding to Fiji beer.

Paul Clark: Yeah, little Fiji beer may have been in there occasionally. And then one other time a gecko got in there, which was, I don't know how he got in there.

Jack Franklin Davies: A gecko like a little lizard?

Paul Clark: A little lizard, yeah, yeah. And the poor guy fell out of there all frozen because, yeah, being cold blooded. And then he had to thaw out and I saw him kind of scamper his way back up, back up the wall. But oh, it was nice.

Jack Franklin Davies: And what did you do for fun in your pastime?

Paul Clark: So you mentioned drinking kava, so there would often be, right, if you just kind of stroll through the village and they'd call out in our dialect, dua na bilo.

Jack Franklin Davies: A bilo is a bowl.

Paul Clark: One cup. Well, come have one cup of kava and.

Jack Franklin Davies: A coconut bowl, right?

Paul Clark: Exactly, exactly, about half of a coconut shell. And for whatever reason, you just sort of kind of walk back and forth and don't go in right away and then finally go in and you, gosh, you can sit there for quite a while. So that ended up passing the time quite a bit. I really loved learning the language, and so I absorbed whatever I could by book and by listening to it. But again, that was the standard Fijian, so it was a little harder.

Jack Franklin Davies: Do you remember singing or music?

Paul Clark: Mostly at church. And I didn't do. I played the saxophone, but I didn't take the saxophone there.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, that's too bad, they would have loved that.

Paul Clark: I bet they would have.

Jack Franklin Davies: Was there a guitar in the village that people played while you're sitting in the circle drinking kava?

Paul Clark: You know, I feel like I saw more of that when I visited some of the other volunteers.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, OK. Because that would have been my story.

Paul Clark: Oh.

Jack Franklin Davies: Largely related to music.

Paul Clark: What a great way to integrate.

Jack Franklin Davies: It was. It was a good key to the culture. So back to work. So what did you do on a daily basis for work?

Paul Clark: So the school was, and I really struggled with that. I think as Americans we're trained to be productive, to value productivity, to ride that through schooling. That's how you achieve. And the Peace Corps is such an astonishing wakeup call in that regard, because I can't speak for all volunteers, but I sure was not feeling productive. And on a day-to-day basis, usually we know what we need to work on and we go set out to it and we can get it done. And there, it just was difficult to figure it out. What? So, you know, the village did have to request a volunteer, but I think really they only had about two or three months' worth of work that they had in mind. Setting up a waste management workshop and some follow up with some non-profits, some non-governmental organizations, NGOs, that had done some work in the area and so.

Jack Franklin Davies: Well, waste management would be a big deal in the village. What did you have, pit latrines or?

Paul Clark: So they were on a, you know, septic system. So it, really it wasn't a huge issue. It was a, in terms of Fiji, it was a wealthy village because they own the land. The tokatoka, the kinship group, owns the land that the Fijian resort is on.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh boy, they get some premiums from that, huh?

Paul Clark: Right. So it was a little different. So trying to carve out a Peace Corps volunteer generalist at best, right? I didn't know what I was doing in terms of waste management, coming out of school with a history degree and then working for the Army and air defense artillery. So it didn't exactly equate to waste management. So I was kind of trying to get one chapter ahead. And so that took some time. And so we did that. We set up the workshop and then tried to, from that workshop, tried to follow up on some ideas that that these different villages. I mentioned I worked in six or seven villages. And it just didn't, it just didn't end up being that much work.

Jack Franklin Davies: Well, six or seven villages, I can only imagine the coordination and the power structure. How did that work with the chiefs?

Paul Clark: Sure. Well, with Cuvu village being the chiefly village of the whole province, it was the traditionally, right, the most powerful village.

Jack Franklin Davies: And your chief would be the high chief.

Paul Clark: Exactly, exactly. And so if the traditional structure came into play, then that was fairly, fairly simple. Easy. You could go talk with the person at the top. From village to village, though, I would work with the rokotuli, which is sort of loosely translated as the village headman. It's kind of a funny way. I love that translation, but kind of the mayor.

Jack Franklin Davies: Right. Well, iliuliu does mean chief so.

Paul Clark: Right, right. So it's an elected, but an elected position.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, well, that's interesting. Yeah. And did he have, did the chief have a mata ni vanua, the spokesman that would generally accompany him on all visits?

Paul Clark: Yes. Yeah, that was built into it. And I, you know, I don't think it was ever specifically explained to me. Like there he goes. But being at some of these large, large ceremonies, in fact, when Ratu Mara, former prime minister, when his wife died and she was connected to my village, there was a giant ceremony attended from all over the islands and other countries.

Jack Franklin Davies: How many days did that last?

Paul Clark: The event itself was one day.

Jack Franklin Davies: One day. But the gathering, yeah.

Paul Clark: Giant gathering and offering of gifts to the chief, the provincial chief. Yeah, so who exactly that was. And at different events, it would kind of be different people and it's probably who was there, but there was certainly the mata ni vanua role being served.

Jack Franklin Davies: I'm sure there was. Yeah, I recall a wailing tent from one of the funerals I attended where the women would just go into the tent and the most blood curdling scream would come out of this tent. The men wouldn't go. The men would be sitting there drinking coffee.

Paul Clark: They would drink coffee all day.

Jack Franklin Davies: While the women wailed.

Paul Clark: Right. There was, I mean, for, they definitely the big ceremonies or funerals, weddings, first birthdays.

Jack Franklin Davies: And church holidays?

Paul Clark: Church holidays, around Christmas was very, very big. But they could kind of blend in your mind because most of it was sitting and drinking kava.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah.

Paul Clark: There'd be some nuances to the ceremony. And of course, the words would be different. But the procedure was very similar. But, you know, that was a really neat thing about being in the village while finding work and knowing where I could be valuable. Being, you know, barely being as competent as a two year old in terms of Fijian culture and the local politics and dynamics. So quickly realizing, and I don't think I suffered illusions that I was going to be extremely knowledgeable technically to help out. But while that was a challenge, the benefit was being immersed in the culture. And even though a lot of people in my village went to work six days a week because it was pretty well.

Jack Franklin Davies: Did they work in the village or outside the village?

Paul Clark: Outside. So in the various resorts.

Jack Franklin Davies: Ah, yes.

Paul Clark: Because my village was pretty well integrated into the cash economy. And so that makes for an interesting dynamic, right, for a Peace Corps volunteer. So it's not like going into a subsistence setting and figuring out a nice project scope. It's instead trying to figure out what's going to enhance the wellbeing of these communities that, right, they're still immersed in Fijian culture. One foot there, but also one foot in going to work. Going to work every day or six days a week and, you know, having to earn some cash.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah. And who did you report to?

Paul Clark: I reported to a man, so my site supervisor in the village.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, OK.

Paul Clark: So I had a counterpart, a site Fijian counterpart, and then a Fijian supervisor. And so those were the, and they were brothers. So those were the two men who were kind of in charge of putting me to work or keeping me out of trouble. Yeah.

Jack Franklin Davies: Interesting. OK. Well, so you spent two years there?

Paul Clark: Yes. Yes, I did the two years.

Jack Franklin Davies: And do you recall your feelings as you prepared to leave Fiji?

Paul Clark: So leaving Fiji. You know, I think that first, after the first year at the halfway point, I definitely had a little bit of a meltdown. And I think I had not quite shed all of my American values around that productivity. And so you're just wondering, wow, this is stressful, right? Because I'm pretty capable. I'm pretty competent in an American setting. And that's, you know, eye-opening about living a cross-cultural life and being immersed, is you don't feel competent.

Jack Franklin Davies: You're kind of starting over.

Paul Clark: You're starting over. Your jokes aren't funny.

Jack Franklin Davies: Especially in another language.

Paul Clark: In another language. You got to learn so much in the context, and um.

Jack Franklin Davies: I have to share one joke with you.

Paul Clark: Of course.

Jack Franklin Davies: Since the Fijians used to be cannibals, the last guy to get eaten was the missionary, but their biggest insult is, we wouldn't even want to eat you. And I'd say, oh please, just a little bite.

Paul Clark: And I can see, I bet that was funny the entire time.

Jack Franklin Davies: Pretty much.

Paul Clark: And so it just, it takes learning that. And so at the one year mark, I don't, I didn't think seriously about leaving, but we started with 34 volunteers in our, at the beginning of training, and we finished at the two year mark, I think, with 24. So it was, you know, pretty decent amount lost. And yeah, I feel like that was maybe because it was so uncertain that I think the sites at this time, because Fiji, the program closed down from '98 to 2001 or 2002.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, that's right, I forgot about that.

Paul Clark: And I don't think. I don't know exactly why. I think it might have just been reallocating resources, but then it opened up in I think 2003. So we were the third group after the program reopened. So we were called FRE-3.

Jack Franklin Davies: Free three?

Paul Clark: F-R-E dash 3, Fiji Re-Entry Three.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, OK.

Paul Clark: Which I think the program has gone back to the more chronological numbers which I think was really great so you had the continuity. So that was really, that was hard for me. And the second year, I guess in a way, I'd say I got it finally. Quit taking myself so seriously, right? Shed that Army command and control that I had been trained to do.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, oh yeah.

Paul Clark: Of moving things forward, of being able to see that progress. And stepping back and saying, let's just, let's just roll with it. What do the folks I'm working with want to work on? I have this little bit of structure at the school. So, great. That made a big difference. So I did know I had at least 15 to 20 hours established, so that second year was just much more relaxing.

Jack Franklin Davies: That's good.

Paul Clark: And so that coming to the end, you know, there was definitely some relief just because it's, for me being immersed in that Fijian culture and that social communal aspect, which is so awesome, so amazing. But hard for someone who doesn't mind some solitude and solo time. So there was definitely a relief. And definitely also real sadness to be leaving these people I'd gotten real close to, including other volunteers.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah.

Paul Clark: Such an important network of volunteers and fellow teachers and people I worked with in the village, people in some of the non- governmental organizations. You know, I think moving on from anything is really tough in the sort of the emotional cauldron of Peace Corps. I think that's even more, that's even more powerful. So it was a real mix. And I remember, you know, we talked about drinking quite a bit of kava. So even the last day, a fairly large contingent, probably 10 or so, we actually all came to the airport with me and we sat out on a tiny little strip of grass out in the parking lot and had a couple more tanoas, a couple more bowls.

Jack Franklin Davies: Bowls of grog, yeah.

Paul Clark: Of kava before I went and checked in. So definitely a lot of tears.

Jack Franklin Davies: On both sides, yeah.

Paul Clark: On both sides. And so, yeah, hard. But it was also, I'll admit, definitely a sense of relief when I got on that plane. And it was just kind of like, wow, OK. It's just such a powerful experience.

Jack Franklin Davies: Did they have a nickname for you?

Paul Clark: Well, just my name. So Paul in Fijian is Vaula or Paula. So being a biblical name, it's pretty common there too. But it, of course, it sounds like Paula, which takes some getting used to, and the Fijian women, you know, would often singsong-y voice if they were calling out to me as I'm walking down the road. They'd say, Paulaaaaa. And so that still rings in my ear.

Jack Franklin Davies: I'm getting tingles just hearing that, because that flashed back.

Paul Clark: In my mind, yeah. Yeah, such truly friendly people. And I would say it's, you know, my experience was, of course, once they get to know you and you get to know them, it becomes more sort of the more universal stand out. Some people don't like you, some people do, and you build some connections.

Jack Franklin Davies: Nice. So you got on the plane. Where did you fly to?

Paul Clark: So I flew. Let's see, where did I end up flying into? Back into, I believe I went flew into Seattle because, while my home of record was still in Montana, my friend who was borrowing my car lived not too far out of Seattle.

Jack Franklin Davies: He gave you the car back?

Paul Clark: He did. He did. It was mostly in one piece. He did a pretty good job taking care of it.

Jack Franklin Davies: Well, that sounds very Fijian too, what's yours is yours and what's yours is mine.

Paul Clark: That's exactly right. Ooh, I like your car means I want that car. Yeah.

Jack Franklin Davies: Or can I use it? Yeah.

Paul Clark: And so, and it was nice. So I actually stayed with him and his folks for about three days. And I was really glad for that because it was kind of a good transition zone. I really appreciate that they opened up their house for me, just because it's, one, I mean, there's just so much jet lag that you can't quite grasp it.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah, Fiji is on the international dateline, so.

Paul Clark: Exactly. So there's changes of days involved.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah, that's right. You lose a day going back. Or you gained one.

Paul Clark: It was kind of as if you flew forever and it only took an hour of clock time.

Jack Franklin Davies: You got back the time you lost when going to Fiji.

Paul Clark: Exactly, exactly. And then I made my way back to my hometown of Helena, Montana.

Jack Franklin Davies: OK, so I want to stay with those first three days. Any culture shock?

Paul Clark: I would, I would say there was definitely a little bit. Yeah.

Jack Franklin Davies: Such as?

Paul Clark: Just the pace of traffic. And a little bit of, say, the availability of everything.

Jack Franklin Davies: Like groceries?

Paul Clark: Groceries, yeah. I mean, I could go into Sigatoka on a weekly basis and there were supermarkets there. So. So I would say not, not immediately, not too huge. And we just didn't do much in those first three days. And then also, you know, going back to Montana, it's pretty low-key too, small, fairly small town. But it, I would say the culture shock just. Perhaps the shock is when you're realizing all of the things that you didn't think about before, and what it means to be an American and what we value about ourselves and having such a contrasting cultural context to be able to compare with. Of that really communal setting to the much more nuclear family and individual base, so I think that's it. I think it was sort of a protracted culture shock. But I had some built-in time. I think I got home in August and I didn't start with graduate school again. So Peace Corps was embedded in my graduate school.

Jack Franklin Davies: At least it wasn't snowing when you got home.

Paul Clark: And it wasn't snowing. It was warm weather. Yeah. So there was quite a bit of time to transition. I didn't have to jump back into hustle bustle or big city life or, so I think that subdued it a little bit.

Jack Franklin Davies: And what did you do when you got home?

Paul Clark: So I knew I was going to go back to graduate school.

Jack Franklin Davies: OK.

Paul Clark: So I had one more semester left and I needed to write up my professional paper, which I officially did my research in Fiji. For a long time, I was figuring out, OK, what's it going to be? What's it going to be? And a non-governmental organization did a large project all along that district, and in fact, about five NGOs had done work there in the previous five to 10 years.

Jack Franklin Davies: What sort of work?

Paul Clark: Environmental. Environmental based work. So waste management, coral gardens. So we're right on the coast with a beautiful reef, as you imagine. But a bit of a degraded reef just because there were villages and resorts all along, all along that coast. So trying to revitalize the reef and the fisheries, and some were governance type issues about how to manage, kind of co-manage those resources. And so one needed to have an independent study done to, I think, apply for future funding about their five year project. And what went well, what didn't? Why was that? So I did 20, 25 interviews with Fijians who were involved in the project.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, OK. And that resulted in your paper?

Paul Clark: And so then I after that, I did that. I wrote up the report for the NGO. That was probably some of my most professional based work that I did there.

Jack Franklin Davies: Dealing with other scientists.

Paul Clark: Exactly. And so I still along the way. And then after that, I was figuring, well, what do I, what am I going to do my research on? Should I do eco-tourism or what? And then after a while, time keeps passing and I'm like, you know, I think I've done my research.

Jack Franklin Davies: Sounds like you lived it, yeah.

Paul Clark: And so I looked back, going back to those, right, I mean, observation, the experience, and then going back to those 20, 25 interviews. I realized, well, that's a good amount of information.

Jack Franklin Davies: That's a lot of data, yeah.

Paul Clark: And continuing to then expand on what were the challenges that these NGOs, which were, you know, mostly Fijians speaking with Fijians. So what were the challenges? Why did some things not work? Why did most things not work?

Jack Franklin Davies: Did you come to any conclusions?

Paul Clark: Well, in a professional paper, of course, and you've got to finish with more research is needed. But yeah, I did have about 10.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah.

Paul Clark: And one that that comes to mind, and I think it still applies, is the unreasonable pace of change that's expected in philanthropic giving.

Jack Franklin Davies: Tell me more about that.

Paul Clark: So the expectation is in two to three years, you're going to have a successful project, right? And in a lot of these projects had governance components to them. So behavioral change, structural change tied to the role of women or the role of youth.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah, cultural change in a chief environment.

Paul Clark: Exactly, exactly. And to think that that's going to happen, if some of the solutions. Like bringing back, for instance, fish wardens, which is a traditional role in a Fijian village setting. So bringing back traditional fish wardens to monitor the lagoon, the lagoon area, I think it's a pretty, I think it's a pretty cool idea, but it's a, they're in the cash economy now.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah, you've got to play the game.

Paul Clark: Right. So seeing that as a voluntary position. Well, those people who would be fish wardens, really, there's probably some pressure on them to go make money. So that was just a challenge. And just so, I would think it, you know, it probably takes 10 years if you're trying to build leadership and technical capacity at the local level. It's just almost impossible to do in two or three years.

Jack Franklin Davies: You know, it sounds a lot like what you're doing right now.

Paul Clark: It is. It very much, um.

Jack Franklin Davies: Tell me more about that.

Paul Clark: It very much relates. Yeah. You bet. So my current position is with the National Park Service Rivers, Trails and Conservation Assistance Program.

Jack Franklin Davies: In Alaska.

Paul Clark: In Alaska. So I'm the program manager for the Alaska Region Program. And Alaska region is just that, it's the state of Alaska. And so our role is to help community led outdoor recreation and conservation projects.

Jack Franklin Davies: Community led.

Paul Clark: Community led.

Jack Franklin Davies: Non-governmental.

Paul Clark: Right. Right. They can be governed, they can be governmentally led. But it's the key thing is, it's not the National Park Service. It's not, we're not the leaders of it. So it's very much like Peace Corps in the aspect that we're coming in, that kind of coincidentally for two years often, and working with a community group to plan, design, and construct new trails. And we haven't done too much of it, but do like watershed management plan. It's really up to the community, so they apply for our assistance. Instead of getting money, they get our time. So it's a grant.

Jack Franklin Davies: That's kind of like Fiji or Peace Corps.

Paul Clark: It is very much so, just like Peace Corps where an organization needs to request hosting a Peace Corps volunteer. Same with the RTCA program. We get applications and then we go work with that project champion out in the community, figure out what she or he wants to do. We try to. And I think I'd be such a better Peace Corps volunteer now having this experience.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, I have to agree with that. But, you know, it is what it is.

Paul Clark: It's humbling. But I think having that Peace Corps volunteer experience has really helped shape my perspective on how to go in and work with these communities. So we're working with small rural communities in Alaska, um, different tribal communities, one out in St. Paul Island, which is one of the Pribilof Islands in the middle of the Bering Sea.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh boy.

Paul Clark: So a number of, right, the kind of flexibility and adaptability and learning. Learning that local context that we all have to do as Peace Corps volunteers, are some of the key competencies to serving in this kind of community planning role.

Jack Franklin Davies: Well, I met some of the native Alaskans, but at least everybody speaks English, so you've got a little bit more common ground.

Paul Clark: Sure, sure. Although in Fiji, that was mostly the case, although they didn't operate between each other in English for the most part.

Jack Franklin Davies: Because English was the national language, right?

Paul Clark: Right.

Jack Franklin Davies: And the villages maintain their own dialects.

Paul Clark: Exactly. So yeah, it was. So yes, it's different there. But in some Alaska Native communities, you know, it's helped me be able to open my eyes and see, OK, what are the structural differences if I'm working in downtown Anchorage versus if I'm working in Togiak in the Bristol Bay area?

Jack Franklin Davies: And what would be some of those differences?

Paul Clark: Communication and the pace, the kind of expectations.

Jack Franklin Davies: Transportation's got to be an issue here.

Paul Clark: It's expensive and, I mean, some of our projects are because transportation is a challenge, so most are using four wheelers.

Jack Franklin Davies: No dog sleds?

Paul Clark: Not as much, no. Snow machines have pretty much taken their place.

Jack Franklin Davies: So they've gone modern too.

Paul Clark: Yes.

Jack Franklin Davies: And they have TV?

Paul Clark: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. And I mean, certainly cell phones. I'm behind the times with some of the younger professionals I'm working with out there. They laugh at my iPhone 5.

Jack Franklin Davies: At least not a flip phone.

Paul Clark: So, but yeah, there are so many parallels between I feel like trying to be effective as a Peace Corps volunteer and trying to be effective in providing this technical assistance to community groups that are, you know, they have.

Jack Franklin Davies: The government officials. Yeah, interesting. So why don't we refresh on the three goals of the Peace Corps? First was to learn about another country while being there, which you pretty well explained that. The second goal is coming back here and sharing what you know about Fiji with other people. How have you done that?

Paul Clark: Yeah, good. So part of that was kind of embedded thanks to it being part of my graduate program. So I wrote a, waxed philosophic in my professional paper for a hundred plus pages. But what was, I think, pretty telling for me. So I'll step back. So I also presented to a couple of other college classes and I was a teaching assistant, so I got to. [coughs] Excuse me, sip of water here.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah, I was wondering too, whether you did any recruiting for the Peace Corps?

Paul Clark: Informally, simply. Never in a paid position or on the university campus.

Jack Franklin Davies: OK.

Paul Clark: No. But I definitely have talked with several people. There's one friend of ours who is in Ecuador now. You know, she certainly came to that decision on her own, but certainly talked with her quite a bit about my experience and what was challenging and what was amazingly rewarding.

Jack Franklin Davies: So on a daily basis, how often might the thought of Fiji even come up? Or daily or how often does it?

Paul Clark: How often? I would say it's never too far away. So it's, let's see. I got back in 2007. So it's 12 years, almost exactly 12 years, and it does not seem like that long ago. It was, I think, just such a powerful experience. So it's.

Jack Franklin Davies: Like a snapshot in time.

Paul Clark: It is. So I think it, it really changed who I am, I guess.

Jack Franklin Davies: In what way?

Paul Clark: I think around the cultural, about taking it easy, not taking things too seriously, questioning the focus on achievement and productivity that, you know, I was certainly very driven and got good grades and, you know, successfully found jobs and all. And just to be able to step back from that and, right, not judge myself too much or others. And in, you know, I mean, especially in the current times, there's so much talk about different cultures and clashes and tensions. Experiencing the Peace Corps for me, right? Because it was hard to be, I mean, I guess it's the first time where I was mainly prejudged based on the color of my skin.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh. And you were in the minority.

Paul Clark: And I was very much in the minority. And so, you know, after a hundred years of colonization and the post-colonial construct still being strong of the white guy coming in and having all the ideas and having all the money and being in a tourist area. So for those who didn't know I was there, you know, would assume I was a tourist, which makes sense.

Jack Franklin Davies: Or a local European.

Paul Clark: Right, right. An I wasn't there for too long in the scheme of things, right? Two years, it feels long to us, but it's a blink of an eye for the folks who are going to live there their whole lives. So, you know, I just think that's something that everyone needs to experience. I really think it would be valuable, because you come to an understanding of, OK, well, here's why they feel that way. Here's some ways that they're right, and there's a lot of ways where they're not right because they don't. They don't know who I am.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah.

Paul Clark: And just that colonial construct. So the expectation that, well, this guy's got lots of money and, it was tough to work through. I struggled with that because I was, you know, perhaps because I studied the culture a lot being in graduate school before going.

Jack Franklin Davies: Well, since you've been back, have you gotten any letters from people there or requests for aid or assistance or money or?

Paul Clark: I got a, I got a love letter. And if you can remember, you don't know anyone's name, like in general. There's a few people, but you're not often, people aren't calling you. They're not saying, hey Jack, hey Paul. And so like, I don't know who the woman is, but I did get a love letter. And then on a much sadder note, I got two messages, some emails, that two of the guys I work closest with died in their mid-forties.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. These were Fijians?

Paul Clark: Fijians, yeah. So the teacher that I was really close with and my Fijian side counterpart, both died. So that's been, that's, yeah, that's been tough.

Jack Franklin Davies: Where did you meet your wife?

Paul Clark: Meet my wife? Well, that was here in Alaska.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, OK.

Paul Clark: So moved up to Alaska in 2008 as a presidential management fellow. So a federal government program as a way to recruit people finishing up a graduate degree of some sort. And I worked for the Forest Service from 2008 to 2015. And in 2010, through mutual friends, we were introduced.

Jack Franklin Davies: Nice.

Paul Clark: And yeah, late 2010, then got married in 2012.

Jack Franklin Davies: And you have children?

Paul Clark: We have two children, age six and three.

Jack Franklin Davies: Wow.

Paul Clark: So yeah, quite a, in a sense a quick change for me. I tell you.

Jack Franklin Davies: Well, that's culture shock.

Paul Clark: That is. That is culture shock.

Jack Franklin Davies: What have you taught the kids about Fiji?

Paul Clark: Oh, you know.

Jack Franklin Davies: Do they sit on the floor and eat out of bowls?

Paul Clark: Well, they'll definitely have no problem eating with their hands, sitting cross-legged with me on the ground.

Jack Franklin Davies: Would you let them drink kava?

Paul Clark: You bet.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah?

Paul Clark: Yeah.

Jack Franklin Davies: Even at this age?

Paul Clark: Sure. Yeah, sure. They're not going to drink too much of it because we'll say it's an acquired taste, I guess. And I think maybe you don't even acquire it. You just, you put up with it.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah, it tastes pretty bad.

Paul Clark: And you drink a lot of it. But I taught him a little [speaks Fijian].

Jack Franklin Davies: OK. That's got to be cute.

Paul Clark: It is, and you can see they're sponges, their pronunciation, right? I'd love to go immerse them in it, and they'd have a great time running around with the.

Jack Franklin Davies: Think you'll ever take them to Fiji?

Paul Clark: I do. I do.

Jack Franklin Davies: Wouldn't that be great. Don't wait too long.

Paul Clark: Well, it's true. Just, uh.

Jack Franklin Davies: Before they turn into teenagers. I'm sorry.

Paul Clark: If, especially if we go, my wife actually got a master's degree in New Zealand, so she's got friends in New Zealand and Australia, so we could make a big South Pacific expedition. And I would definitely love to spend some time, but I do want them to be a little older to really have a sense of the experience.

Jack Franklin Davies: To appreciate what they're experiencing. Yeah.

Paul Clark: Right, right.

Jack Franklin Davies: Teenagers might just tune it out and sit there and watch TV the whole time.

Paul Clark: Exactly. Or be like, this is lame, and then only appreciate it. You know, it's going to depend on the person. My older son is extremely social. I've met a lot of interesting and new people at the airport.

Jack Franklin Davies: And so they've met Fijians?

Paul Clark: No, no. Just anyone. No, I don't think.

Jack Franklin Davies: Is there a large Fijian community here?

Paul Clark: Not to my knowledge. There's a large Samoan population here and how that got started, I'm not sure, but that especially in the Anchorage area, that Samoan population is pretty substantial.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah, I recall that a lot of the Fijians immigrated to Vancouver rather than Seattle, apparently it was easier to get into Canada.

Paul Clark: Vancouver? OK. When I was in Fiji, Sacramento seemed to be the most common landing spot.

Jack Franklin Davies: I believe that too. I'm from Sacramento and, yeah, we've hosted a lot of immigrants.

Paul Clark: That's most people would say, oh yes, I have a cousin in Sacramento. Yes, Sacramento, California. And so, yeah, have not. Have not met a Fijian, well, since being in Alaska.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, OK. Might be a little cold for their blood up here. Too cold for me.

Paul Clark: Well, it could, but Samoa is a pretty similar climate and, you know, they managed. I think it's, I think just with that, I feel like with the communal nature of the culture and similar with someone in Tonga. Probably if a few get settled, it's more likely that more family members and broader kinship groups will come in. So, yeah, Anchorage is, doesn't seem to have been a destination yet for.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah. Well, now that you mentioned it, I've met all kinds of Fijians, Fijians and Fiji Indians. A lot of them drive bus at the airport and so on. And their English is very good and they're very, very friendly people.

Paul Clark: They sure are.

Jack Franklin Davies: That's why they call them the friendly islands.

Paul Clark: Although I think my, because they are so friendly, friendly up front, that I felt like it was a true sign of respect and to where my language skills had gotten when they said, hmm, you're Fijian skills aren't very good.

Jack Franklin Davies: Really, they'd actually say that?

Paul Clark: They said it, and I felt like, wow, that was the best compliment you could give me!

Jack Franklin Davies: Really?

Paul Clark: Instead of [speaks Fijian], right? Oh, you're so, you're so smart. You're so smart in the Fijian language because you said bula. To where they said like, hmm, that sounds, what?

Jack Franklin Davies: I remember them saying one time, oh, you speak the good pidgin Fijian?

Paul Clark: Right.

Jack Franklin Davies: Very broken.

Paul Clark: And that's where you knew. That's where you knew that you had made it to level two, at least.

Jack Franklin Davies: Yeah. But that's what endeared them to us or vice versa.

Paul Clark: Right.

Jack Franklin Davies: Wow. Well, what an experience you had many years after I was there. So we talked about how you got into the Peace Corps, what you did there, and what you're doing now. Anything else you'd like to add?

Paul Clark: Oh, no, it's so fun. I'm glad I had a little advance notice that I would be talking about it just because it's, as I say, it's like the language is rusty. But I do think about it a lot, and I stay in touch with a core group of volunteers on a very regular basis.

Jack Franklin Davies: How many volunteers are around here?

Paul Clark: Oh, not in this area, just via Facebook, via text messaging. So some of my cohort. There is an RPCV group here in Anchorage.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, OK.

Paul Clark: That seems to be pretty active.

Jack Franklin Davies: Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Well, we're going to have a Peace Corps Fiji reunion in Sacramento one day, and you're more than welcome to join us.

Paul Clark: I would love to.

Jack Franklin Davies: Well, Paul, it's been very nice talking with you. Thank you, and good luck to you.

Paul Clark: You as well, Jack. Thank you.

Jack Franklin Davies: All right.