Semi-structured interview transcript with Interviewee #9 (Industry: Pharmaceutics)
Interviewer(s): Interviewer
Interviewee(s): Interviewee I

Interviewer: Hi (participating change leader), thanks again for finding the time and energy to participate in our followup research on change leadership in your organization. This time you get to tell your side of the story, and complement your change recipients’ reported perceptions. Just as last time, all GDPR actions still apply, and this interview is being recorded. The only purpose for this meeting being recorded is the transcript which is required for the qualitative analysis, however neither the video nor the audio of this meeting will ever be publicly displayed, nor will your identity or the identity of your organization be disclosed. If you do not agree to this, please let me know and we will stop the recording and our interview. Other than that, today’s protocol is fairly simple. First, we will go through a round of so-called “quick- draw” questions, which is designed as a warm up exercise. I give you a quick question, and then you answer with one or two words max. After we complete this round, we move onto the actual stories, where I will ask you to recollect a certain incident, and to retell it to us in as much detail as you deem appropriate. I may ask you a followup question, but the general idea is to give you enough space to tell us a story without being interrupted. We are not interested in names, and in case some of these names find their way into our transcript, I’m going to redact them and use a generic term to replace them. If you agree with the aforementioned, let’s get started.

What was your biggest challenge of this journey?

Interviewee I: So biggest challenge of this journey was actually that to... to convince people that their core values, trust and safety will not be compromised.

Interviewer: Okay, the second one we have is... if we perceive this change journey as a story, who would you say was the protagonist of the story?

Interviewee I: That will be myself.

Interviewer: Okay. Who would be the antagonist?

Interviewee I: The sales team.

Interviewer: What would you say was the inciting moment of the story? So something that has triggered the protagonist to move on to the change journey?

Interviewee I: That would be actually knowing that there is a possibility that we improve the quality of the work on the field by implementing this mobile ordering platform. And in that way, on one click, they would finish the sales in, in a pharmacy, for example. And yeah, that would be actually that possibility to improve things. And knowing that is possible to do. It was actually my motive to go into that change.

Interviewer: What would you say was the biggest conflict in this story?

Interviewee I: Actually, that platform has a GPS inside... And we can see the location of people because they need to synchronize when they are ascending order from the from the pharmacy, and we can see their route during the day. So... all that actually raised a topic in a team that maybe there is something behind the project. Maybe we are not telling the (uhm...) the truth, maybe we want just to control them. So it is primarily a control tool and not aimed at improving their sales and life. And what will happen if we maybe conclude that they're late somewhere, or they are not spending enough time in a pharmacy, or they're going to lose their job, etc. So actually many, many questions like that (were) raised up.

Interviewer: And what would you say was the moral of the story? So like, the key takeaway.

Interviewee I: That actually... some projects are triggering core values of employees in employees. And that management should be very careful when talking about changes, because people are talking about some technical things, maybe, but behind is actually great fear about their freedom, if they're going to lose freedom, or if they're going to lose safety, maybe, maybe they they're feeling safe on their job positions. But now they're starting to thinking that they're going to lose their job and to get fired because of some things that will be perceived wrongly from the management and that they need to explain why they were on that position. In that time, what happened during the day that we will not understand the complete story, and that we will make some wrong conclusions maybe. So actually think about core values, values was main, more or less say, here in this concrete project in what I'm talking about?

Interviewer: To continue our Quick Draw question section, I would like to ask you to specify the genre of this story?

Interviewee I: Yeah... I would say it was thriller (both smile) Because starting, you know, something scary happened, and they were afraid of their life, and then they try to run away from that. And at the end, you know, they got familiar with that strange enemy, which was actually trying to help them and at the end... at the end, it was a happy story.

Interviewer: What was the darkened version of this story? So when something that was initially perceived as good turned out to be bad, or maybe something that was initially done, you know, perceived bed turned into something that was good?

Interviewee I: I think the whole project was, the whole platform was something that was perceived at the beginning as something bad. But at the end, they were familiar with that, and they perceived it as a quality. So now it's an integral part of Organization. This was actually a few years ago, it was the process that that took some time because previous they were taking orders in pharmacy on a paper you know, or that was just agreement in personnel with some some people in pharmacy and then later maybe they forget store there that boots or they've changed the mind or competitors came with a better proposal a better offer. So many lost sales we had and now they just have it all in, in platform on one click they they finish business and in, in one visit in pharmacy.

Interviewer: And the final question of this quick draw round, what was the most frequently used metaphor that you use during this change journey?

Interviewee I: I had one metaphor, which is my general one, you know, so, when you ask anybody in organization, they will say you, all of them will say you the same, maybe it's a maybe nothing is realistic, but everything is possible. So, this is the general one. And I mentioned this because so many obstacles they mentioned, you know, like okay, wholesalers will never let us go into their digital system. So we can click send electronic order, or what if my battery on tablet is empty, you know, I will not be able to synchronize and then I will not be able to do that or, or something like that. So, in that way, maybe this metaphor is useful for this project, but maybe it's not the best one. The second would be that we are not here to to compete in sprint, we are here to run marathon actually. So, our idea is long term, we will not do anything with some short term actions, but in the long term, we will be somebody who is pioneer in this new technology new project two, we will have competitive advantages on the market we will be different working with with us will be much easier than with with others. So we should think long term, when we are talking about the benefits of of this project.

Interviewer: That makes perfect sense, I already see some additional similarities with the approach of the narratively intelligent individual that I've previously mentioned.

Interviewee I: there is one more that that I like to say that actually, when I talk to people, I say: "Okay, you are the people who are writing the history, of course, this is something new, this is something that's never happened, you know, in our industry before we are we are the leaders. So one day when somebody will talk about this, which will be normal in future they will still okay, those are the people who introduce it first. So actually, you are not just doing business here you are writing the history". So I realized they really liked to hear that (both smile) When you talk about somebody who is changing the history, then it's something you know... big and something's wrong and and really important and not just another tool for for sales, you know?

Interviewer: How did these people behave before the change? From what, from what you said, I could kind of pick up on the ideas that they had unlimited freedom, things like this. So maybe you could talk talk us through a little bit more about that?

Interviewee I: Yeah, they... they had freedom, and they still have it, because it was really not intention to control people on this way. And they were... well maybe some of them were living in a, you know, with pink glasses... you know? yes, that they're actually mostly medical representatives, you know... talking about medical things, and sales is just one part of their job, but not so important. And they have medical background, they are doctors and pharmacists. So when they actually realize that they will have tablets, with a digital platform, and they will take it out in the pharmacy to take an order, it somehow immediately looks like they're not so medical anymore, you know... that their purpose will be different, that they will be somehow humiliated, because they will not be (perceived as) doctors anymore. And they will be some kind of sales salespeople some kind of commercial representatives with tablets and and actually, their purpose was questioned, you know?

Interviewer: So when they started expressing doubts, how did you address that?

Interviewee I: Well, for example, if you're talking about freedom and safety, I shared with the team how I felt when I was working in a company many, many years ago, I was working as a medical sales representative on the same position where they were now, and we had the GPS system in power. And it was the system (designed) for the... for the control. We knew that it was the control system, we didn't have something for... for this mobile ordering back then and I shared with them, that every morning I was waking up in stress, and I was in hurry to be on time. Because I had just one picture in my mind and that is that my car with will explode at exactly 8:00 AM If I'm not there in car and already in start going to various locations. So this picture with the car and bomb was everyday in my mind. And it was really stressful for me, because I do not believe that eight o'clock in the morning or nine o'clock is making some kind of difference if you are working properl and you're doing your job... And I'm not a morning person (both laugh). So it was really not the best way of... of controlling my sales efficiency, you know, so I shared that with these people. And I tell them that I'm not a fan of that way of working. And when we are talking about control, we have so many soft methods, you know, we can talk with people, we can see the quality of the work, we do not have to measure it in specific working hours, because you can be in your car at eight o'clock and be talking on the phone for one hour and not doing anything (marked on the GPS). So in that way, I try to show them that I understand how they feel. And I understand their fears. And that this is really not the point, the point was something completely different than I explained. What will be the benefits for them, how they will save time and energy and the nerves, you know, because they will finish time finish work and sales and everything and they will be relaxed, they have not been stressed what will happen after their visit? Was it efficient or not. And what was also very important to be consistent after that. So when once when we start with that way of working, really to show people that what you said, is what you do. So after that's not to go and ask questions, why were you there or just show them that what you said, is really going to be like that. And then they start to, you know, to believe and to relax, and to think about the benefits. Until the moment they were thinking about their freedom and safety and job and maybe losing a job and what happened they couldn't think about benefits of the project. So we need to go through that first phase of, of change, while four values or let's say our focus, but but not transparent. You know, we didn't have situation that they transparent. Say said, Okay, I now I'm afraid what happened with with my job, they were quiet, you know, they, you know, they should worry on the faces, but they didn't express what exactly is bothering them. Because that would be even worse, you know, when when they say okay, but I'm starting, you know, later, I'm not going What if they did? They cannot say that? Actually they can but

Interviewer: I'm curious to see what were the first signs of people starting to accept this, this change?

Interviewee I: When we started, when we implemented this platform, then we had, of course, early adopters, who were more agile and who had their orders done through this platform, and they were enjoying that paperless administration and they were happy with that, you know? And then we had people who were not so good at accepting change from the first moment, and then we detected who is an early adapter, and then we started talking with with themand we asked them to share the good experience with other people, to maybe teach them how to use the platform. Maybe they are not so you know... technically skilled, so that in that way, this person can help and also share the joy and satisfaction with new features with them, so that they can also feel this optimism. So these people helped us, I think a lot... because she was he was sharing best practice with people. And then we did some incentives as well, and for people who made the most sales through this digital platform, we prepared some awards... Some were financial, some were not financial, but we had a different kind of awards to stimulate them to to compete, you know and to reach some targets and to gain some experience through this incentive. A step by step approach with some incentives.

Interviewer: Were they more oriented towards the purpose of the innovation or it was more towards certain functionalities, like how does this feature work? Or something like how can you use it better? Did you notice some of these topics emerging?

Interviewee I: Yeah, I think when when they when we finished with this first phase of of questioning with core values and purpose and everything, you know, and when time was passing they started being secured that everything is fine that they are safe that they didn't lose freedom then it's okay and then they started questioning technical part and getting on with application etc.

Interviewer: I'm curious if you've seen some of the evidence towards returning to doubt again from from the initial people accepting it kind of moving along getting on board towards expressing some new doubt has new doubt emerged during this stage?

Interviewee I: Yes, actually, it would be some kind of technical issues Okay. As because in that application, there are several wholesalers and each wholesaler has its own article number, some codes for customers, etc. So one pharmacy in several wholesalers hat has several quotes, you know, sometimes when a new customer happened in one wholesaler, for example, and there is no code in the system, then order is not realized. So that was the problem. And many other technical issues with new products with new products with the stock in wholesaler, for example, they order something and then it's not on a stock of wholesale actually, it was something completely new in, in pharmacy business in general, but also for us, and we had so many things that were happening on a daily level Oh, no. And that, then it was the situation, okay, maybe it's not really a good project, the customers will be angry on us, you know, I had problems with this pharmacy and with that pharmacy and, for example, one order was delivered twice, and what will what will we do now with the goods and started complaints and stuff like that?

Interviewer: How did you address these complaints?

Interviewee I: Yes, well, I think it's much easier to address them than the first stage, when we passed through first stage, then everything else was just you know, matter of organization. So, we tried to be quickly and fast with reaction to get smooth communication with that company that was providing the application, because we had the contact person there. So we arranged several meetings with that person, and then discuss all situations that we had tried to be much. So as much flexible as possible to, to solve all all complaints, actually, that we had from our customers, and to also communicate all that to our sales people. So that they know what we are doing that they have support that we will not let them deal with complaints all alone, that they will get all help and all support from the management from the company from the support of that provider of software. So that we are here to all together overcome all issues that are coming up.

Interviewer: Was there evidence of people going into regression, like returning to the old way of working, even though all of the effort was done?

Interviewee I: Well not reallly, because of all those incentives and motivational efforts, they stopped percieving that the app is a tool to control their movement, you know... But you (always) have those people who are sometimes resistant and, you know... they sometimes like to complain for no real reason. When something is not working, that tends to make them happier. And that's okay, I knew that. But actually, we we didn't have a big regression or going to all the way of workng or something like that.

Interviewer: Who would you say was the most negative person and how did you manifest your influence to maybe change their mind or convince them that it's better to support the thing?

Interviewee I: Yeah. Well, there were two people. Medicinal educated workers tend to be difficult... And I think two of them were louder, even loudest, because of what I mentioned already before... They had some processes inside questioning their self, if that is in the sales, it is something they were supposed to do in life because they were studying to help people to treat people to be doctors, you know, and I think two of them were actually loudest in in complaints. But actually, they were the root in ad sales, you know? So we praised and we appreciated their sales and their results. And we, we said when I'm talking, when I say we, I think management and their supervisor, Sales Director, commercial director and myself, not not only myself, but also few people who are leading the project. Actually, we gave them appreciation, you know, and recognition for the results. So, it was somehow push forward for them to, to accept this change. But I also think that it was very important to give them time, you know, okay, we know that they will complain that they will have some arguments why that is not good. And that it is, you know, sending bad impression to pharmacies that we are degradative people or something like that. But sometimes, I think it's not, not important to argument everything, you know, and to talk about everything, sometimes we should just let time to do things

Interviewer: Sounds like a maturity curve, right? as time goes by you gain experience and maturity, and you manage to accept something that was difficult to accept before.

Interviewee I: yes. Because if if person has internal process, then then it cannot be finished overnight, you know, and any arguments from our side cannot, cannot really make that faster. So, so we are here to support but some things people need to process.

Interviewer: So it's like you're supporting their internal processing, right?

Interviewee I: yes, we understand them... you know, it's very important that we say that we understand that their doubts are completely on place, you know... they're... they're completely right. And that, we should think about that, and we should be careful, and we should monitor and we should see what how pharmacies will really react. And then if he get in some situation, you know, which is not so pleasant, then we will sit again and talk about that and how we can explain that to pharmacy, etc. But actually, it was not anything of that was was something risky for the business. Yeah, now, actually pharmacies accepted that. Really nice. It was easier for them also to say, Okay, I want to order from this wholesaler. And to finish, you know, and just one click, and it, it goes electronically to the system of the fourth sailor.

Interviewer: I'm curious to see, what would you say were the signs or evidence or maybe behavioral cues of this total mastery coming from people who initially resisted this change?

Interviewee I: Well, at the end, nobody was really talking about that anymore... Yeah, it was just a normal everyday thing they were working with. And we had technical support that is functioning we had processes. So if something happens, they know who to call. The problem is (already) solved. And everything's finished very quickly, and and it somehow became normal and everybody forgot to what was before that, you know, and many, many of people, most of the people are still here in the company. And now when we are talking about this, we ask them: “Do you even remember how you were working before?” And they say: “No, we don't remember it, we were like, in stone age, you know, we cannot even think about working that way. That way again.” So it's also a good story when we are implementing something new. But when we have new changes, then we say, okay, you remember when we were talking about mobile ordering, so you know that you had doubts like this, this, this, this at the end. Now, it's you cannot imagine your day or working without that. And they agree. And then we go to another topic.

Interviewer: Do you have a certain failure story from this change? I'm asking because failure stories tend to have a lot of power in in conveying your humility, how we all fail, we've all learned from previous failures, how it's an inevitable part of life etc.

Interviewee I: Not so many stories with failures. Fortunately, that's great. Unfortunately, but failure always happen, it's just that the end outcome defines it. We didn't fail with the project because we were learning from it. But maybe with, with some products, you know, sometimes we will launch some products, which are not so successful. Or maybe it needs to time to develop on the market. So maybe we have expectation that one product, when they launch it in three years, you know, it will be top of the mind, and it will be top three in the category. And it will be you know, great market share. But in three years, it's very short timeframe in this industry, actually. So maybe for some products, you need about 10 years to be in top three. So we had failures with some projects, we believed in project in the product, and we launched them, but at the end, the sales was not so great... And our energy and resources that we invested in financial and non financial resources were huge. And it was just not so reasonable. So maybe the final conclusion was that we should invest resources in something which will bring us much more results. So so we quit with some some products. And that can be maybe some example of how we started something we did our best. And we let some time you know, and in few years, we realized it was not really what we expected. And then we cancelled product.

Interviewer: Did you bounce back from this negative experience, do talk amongst each other and say, Listen, we did this wrong, we should do it better, or maybe some other approach in sharing knowledge from failure.

Interviewee I: Yeah, and it's very important not to give up too early. And also not to give up from some product too late, you know, when people are exhausted or you're invested maybe unreasonable amount of money in the product. So when we had situation like that we were we had meetings with discuss what else we can do. And is it reasonable or not to try to give the product a little bit more time until we give up and when we have, let's say consensus when we have agreement and everybody's okay with that, that we shouldn't put push it anymore. You know, then we then we say okay, at that point, we we are quitting the and I think it's very good to talk about that. And to learn from that and that people are familiar with that, that it's not an it's not bad to have a mistake or to fail or that it can happen and that if you realize it on time and do some steps and do not make any damage to company that that is completely okay. So I think transparency is very important in this in this case. And actually we are showing people how to behave in situations when things are not going as expected.

Interviewer: I mean, these are great examples and thank you once again for your time Jelena. I think we've got a lot of material from thsi talk, and being mindful of your time I propose we wrap this up.

Interviewee I: Yeah, as a conclusion, I would just say that I think integrity is very important is in change management, simply because when people go with you through a change process, and after that, they conclude that they can rely on you, and they can believe you... And they have trust in you, making future change projects easier and easier, thanks to previous experience, and they know that you have the integrity and they can really believe your intentions. When there is a new leader with no previous experience, I think it's much much harder for people to accept any change. So integrity and consistency would be my final words to take away.

Interviewer: Thank you very much Jelena, appreciate you taking the time to do this interview. I'll definitely followup with our research findings and we can talk more details on our findings.