Interviewer(s): I004
Interviewee(s): P465, P466

I004: If we may start our interview mum

You told me you are 30 years you are a Maasai and you have been to this village for 10 years since 2007 and you are a pastoralist and you also do small scale farming of only one acre.

P465: Yes.

I004: Before you came to Mela, where did you come from?

P465: Mbeya.

I004: Aaah, you came from Mbeya?

P465: Yes.

I004: Which part of Mbeya?

P465: Chimala.

I004: So you have grown a lot of rice farming?

P465: Eeeeeh.

I004: When we talk about you in Mbeya back at home, were you staying in a homestead or your father’s house was just one that you were staying with your mother and you could not go eat food from any other person like your aunties or uncles,

P465: It was a homestead with several houses.

I004: So if your mother cooked ugali and you do not feel like eating ugali and maybe your aunty has cooked bananas can you go and eat there?

P465: Yes, you can go to your aunt’s place and eat.

I004: How many of you have been born in your family?

P465: Mhhhh.

I004: Like how many?

P465: Nine.

I004: Nine how many are boys and how many are girls?

P465: Three boys and the rest are girls.

I004: From the nine children how many have gone to school?

P465: We are all educated.

I004: All have been educated?

P465: Yes.

I004: All of you have finished schooling?

P465: No. it is only me who reached class seven some went up to form four others form six and university.

I004: Okay that is good. Now let us talk about the duties and responsibilities that were done by girls and those done by the boys most of the time. Girls in most cases could do which work?

P465: Girls used to wake up did the milking, wash utensils, fetching firewood, cooking, sweeping the ground, washing clothes and cleaning the house.

I004: So that was the responsibility of a girl child?

P465: Yes.

I004: And what about boys?

P465: Look after the cattle, treat them when they are sick and fence the compound.

I004: Now whose work was to count the cows as they enter the compound?

P465: It was the work of our mothers.

I004: Ooh, it was the work of your mothers not the boys?

P465: No, it was for the boys and the mothers.

I004: Okay.

P465: When the boy reaches home, he tells the mother all the cows are there or if there is a lost cow he also report.

I004: Must you count them every day or sometimes you can just assume they are all there?

P465: You check them by their clan and relationship, when you check their clan, you find out that one clan is up to ten and so if they are ten you now check this gave birth to this one and she gave birth to this other one and so this is the uncle to this.

I004: Ahaa.

So this is how you usually do?

P465: Yes.

I004: Okay. May be we can now find out the kind of foods that you were taking back at home. Which food could you not pass maybe two or three or a day without taking?

P465: When we wake up we were given milk to drink.

I004: Milk?

P465: Yes.

I004: After milk?

P465: Ugali.

Ugali?

Yes.

I004: So you mostly took ugali with milk?

P465: Yes.

I004: Which kind of food did you take once in a while?

P465: Rice.

I004: Okay, you were happy the day rice is cooked?

P465: Yes and we only eat once in a week.

I004: Okay, now there are foods for example in our home when rice is cooked the girls liked it much, what about your home did the girls like a certain kind of food and the boys love a certain kind of food or how was it at your home?

P465: We all like the food we did not choose.

I004: So when it is cooked you all eat?

P465: Yes.

I004: Okay. When you say you were eating ugali, is it because you were planting maize or you were buying?

P465: We were buying.

I004: Who could mostly buy food?

P465: My father.

I004: Why do you like sending fathers to the market and not mothers?

P465: Because he is the head of the family and so he is the one to bring food.

I004: What about other small things like vegetables, tomatoes, onions, cooking oil these also were bought by your father?

P465: Yes, you tell him but if he gives you money you can go to the market and buy.

I004: Why is it that you do not go and buy? Is it because you do not have money or what?

P465: No, it is them who most of the time goes out and we remain indoors.

I004: Okay. There are wild vegetables do you know hares lettuce?

P465: We do not eat hares lettuce.

I004: Do you eat nightshade?

P465: Yes.

I004: Or which kind of vegetables do you eat? You name them even in Maasai language.

P465: Pumpkin leaves, Chinese, Jute mallow and cowpeas leaves.

I004: Those vegetables are planted; I want you to tell me about wild vegetables?

P465: There are two types of jute mallow one is called matangai.

I004: Matangai resembles pumpkin leaves?

P465: Yes.

I004: Another one?

P465: Kibingiriru.

I004: Yes, So you mostly looked for those?

P465: Yes.

I004: Also your father was going to gather wild vegetables?

P465: No.

I004: Why can’t you send him and he is the one who mostly goes to the forest?

P465: He cannot go and bend so it is us girls who were sent to the forest to pick vegetables or our mother.

I004: Who mostly goes to the forest to look after the cows? It is the boy child right?

P465: Yes.

I004: So why can’t the boy child bring those vegetables?

P465: They cannot look for them since they are herding cattle’s.

I004: So their work is only to look after the cattle?

P465: Yes, because when they start to look for the wild vegetables, they will forget about the cattle.

I004: Okay, Who used to make decision of buying food when you were young living in your parents’ house?

P465: You eat ugali and if it is not there you only take milk and sleep.

I004: Eeeeh, till the decision is made for the food to be bought. Who gives the order?

P465: My mother tells my father the food items to be bought and if he does not have money to buy food we will drink milk until he is able to buy food.

I004: Did your father and mother involve you children in making decision?

P465: No, we were not involved; the children will only see the food being brought by the mother. There are those boys who were looking after the cows and when the father wanted to sell a cow, he could engage only the elder boys and tell them we want to sell two cows can you choose which one we can sell. They then check and they come up with their decision of selling or not, so there is collaboration in the decision making.

I004: So you have said boys aged 18 and 19 are the ones the father can make decisions with.

P465: Yes.

I004: In your Maasai community what makes you say this child has grown up and he or she should be part of the decision making plans in the family? Starting from the girl child what makes you think she has grown up?

P465: When the girl has grown up and danced for that means she is ready for marriage, so after she got married she is allowed or she will be involved in the decision making for her family but not when she is still in her father’s house. Likewise the boy child after he has been initiated he can be involved in the decision making process because by that time he is ready to marry.

I004: So what is being looked at in a man is the age?

P465: Yes, for now they look at the age.

I004: How many years is a boy allowed to go for a dance?

P466: Mostly 15 years.

I004: When you say he is dance for, is it a ceremony that people come and eat or there is more than that?

P465: It is a ceremony because remember that this boy has not gone through his circumcision rites and so it is that day that he is initiated into adulthood and the old men surrounds him and tells him to rise because he has now become a grown up.

I004: What about the girls? Do women also do the same to the girl?

P465: I do not know because they do it on their own us men do not know.

I004: Okay. Now how many days do ladies take?

P465: They do it the same time as men. If you start today at 6am you will finish the following day at around 4pm -5pm.

I004: Okay, so now mother you have your own home you have shifted to Mela Village, when you look at life in general is there any changes that you have seen or experience especially if you were to compare your life in Mbeya and here in Mela?

P465: Now life has become difficult.

I004: Why?

P465: I have a family now so my responsibilities have increased.

I004: Okay.so why do you think things have become difficult? Is it because you have a family or there is something that has made your life difficult?

P465: Mhhhh, nothing much it is only my children because I have to think of what they will eat, clothes, go to school and I have to buy maize and everything.

I004: So that is what makes your think that your life has become difficult?

P465: Yes, because in the past when I was living with my parents I could only wake up take a shower your mum gives you a book and shoes and you go to school.

I004: So now it is you who buys books for your children?

P465: Yes.

I004: It is true you must feel a change. If we look at life you are living now for example rearing cattle together with farming, you also did farming back at home?

P465: Yes but it was only my mother who used to go to the farm.

I004: Okay, so you do not know how to plough and what about cattle rearing?

P465: Yes.

I004: Do you have larger piece of land for herding your cattle?

P465: Yes, here in Mela there are many places to herd our cattle as compared with Mbeya.

I004: Are there any difference of duties and responsibilities of female children and male children here as compared to how you were doing when you were in your father’s house?

P465: When I got marriage, I found out that if you do not have a male child or he is not available what you do is to eat ugali and you go out to graze cattle.

I004: Are there boys who graze your cattle?

P465: Yes.

I004: Are they from this family or hire them?

P465: Some are from the family and others we hire them.

I004: Back at home you also had people who herd and then you pay them?

P465: Yes.

I004: Why were they being paid? Is it because the family had fewer boys to herd or they did not want to go and herd?

P465: Mmmh sometimes the boys want to go to school and so schooling and herding at the same time will be a bit difficult.

I004: So because many boys go to school so u decide to look for someone to look after the cattle?

P465: Yes.

I004: It is not that you do not have boys?

P465: No some families have only girls and so they will have to look for someone to come and look after the cows. Then you find out that some of them just do it because they have been told to do so and so treating the cows becomes a problem and the father himself must look after them. There you only look for a boy to cut grass for them.

I004: Are there foods that were eaten in the past but you do not eat nowadays and the food that you are eating nowadays and you were not eating in the past like chips enriched with eggs, fish, vegetables, and also pilau which was only cooked in ceremonies but now people cook at home and also there are methods of cooking food you used in the past but you are not using nowadays like boiling food instead nowadays most of the foods we eat are fried?

P465: Nowadays we eat fish which the mothers do not like but for us who have gone to school we eat.

I004: So you also eat fish?

P465: Yes. We also eat chips, eggs, chicken which our mother’s do not like.

I004: Okay, so let us go back a bit, the way you cooked food in the past is it the same way you cook nowadays or it is different?

P465: We used to only boil food and eat.

I004: What about now? Do you fry?

P465: Yes, in the past we did not use tomatoes and onions you only cook vegetables add salt and milk then you eat.

I004: Okay. What is it that has changed until nowadays you eat pilau, fish, chips, and eggs?

P465: My husband wants to speak.

I004: No, it is you who cooks and you are the one who has felt the change isn’t?

P465: Sometimes the mothers could boil milk then remove the cream and use it as cooking oil, those days they did not buy oil but these days they do.

I004: There is no cream.

P465: Yes, in the past, people liked to stay in the village but these days they do not want and that is what has brought us eating food like pilau, maize flour from different millers.in the past they liked staying in the village and going to town may be if you have been sent by your father to see one of the men in town to come and build your house but today we stay in town and know many places but in the past ,you could stay in town and never know how some places look like.

I004: So let us say it is because of the interaction between different communities?

P465: Yes. Till we have changed and adapted to the new lifestyle. For example I started school when I was 13 years of age in class one, then when I finished school I was taken to Christian teachings where I was able to interact with other people and brought some changes and that is how others have stayed by looking for a place in the town to stay. and that’s how we have done even the other men their children have learned here in town so that we can be close to each other for example in case a child is sick it is easier to get to the hospital even at night. They refused to stay in the village so that we can be close together.

I004: Okay, there are three things here that you have mentioned to me first it is the interaction with other tribes so you emulate what others are cooking.

P465: Yes because we stay with them every day for example for me when I go to town in the morning I come back late in the night same to my neighbour. So we live together as relatives like now we are looking for milk so that we can sell and so they go to town tell their fellow women bring two litres of milk tomorrow and the other one says okay and you can also have this banana you can also have some tomatoes you see the closeness.

I004: The closeness of the people brought about the change?

P465: Yes you also find people holding parties they cannot fail to welcome you “hey welcome tomorrow” you find they have cooked pilau and other kinds of foods and you find yourself eating them.

I004: Eeeeh you eat?

P465: Yes.

I004: And you also invite them to your home?

P465: Yes.

I004: And education also?

P465: Yes.

I004: When we talk about drought could it have also led to the Maasai people eating this other kinds of food?

P465: Yes.

I004: How?

P465: Water?

I004: Yes, or drought. How has it led to you eating other kinds of food?

P465: It is because, when it rains we get a lot of milk and we do not even cook vegetables we use milk but for now there is no pastures and getting them is a problem. We go and look for beans we cook and eat also we give our children milk.

I004: So drought has also been a major cause?

P465: Yes because milk production has reduced and the mother says let me sell even if it is one litre so that I can save some money to buy things like salt.

I004: Okay. Do you still have land conflicts?

P465: Yes we have.

I004: Could they have led to discover other kinds of food? And the conflict is between farmers and pastoralist or pastoralists and pastoralists or farmers and farmers?

P465: The land disputes that we have is between one person and the other or can also occur between a pastoralist and a pastoralist because it can happen that I was shown this area and someone else also showed you the same area for you to practice your pastoralism the land disputes between farms for now it has reduced because many of us have gone to seminars and we have come to teach others and for now we do not have people grabbing other people’s land or herding your cattle where you have not been given permission to do so. The land disputes for now have really reduced.

I004: They have reduced.

P465: Yes.

I004: Let us talk about something else. You feel this other kinds of food that have come up like rice and chips do you feel like the maasai tradition is getting out when we use them can you say that today’s children do know have the maasai traditions that was there before?

P465: Yes, like for example drinking soda has influenced because you find out that when this boy takes soda for a long time, he reaches a time where he does not want to take milk again.

I004: He stops taking milk?

P465: Yes. Same as meat the traditions that was there that a maasai can eat like a whole goat alone and finish is not there anymore, it has come to an end with this age of ours.

I004: So you feel this has really destroyed the culture and traditions of the Maasai?

P465: Yes it will end with our age for example I am now 36 years old so it will end with our age because people who are younger than us many of them have been educated and because many of them are educated so they are not conversant with the maasai tradition.

I004: Mother, if we can now talk about the issue of milk, does it have any importance to you?

P465: Yes.

I004: How?

P465: When a child asks for milk you give it to her because you cannot give her water so when she says she wants milk you give her the milk mum tea you give her tea mum water you give her water and so milk is so important for her to get milk.

I004: Okay. If we talk about the importance of milk to you personally if we look at when you were young and now that you are mature, is milk important to you now or when you were still young?

P465: When I was young.

I004: Why, when you were young?

P465: Yes, for now you give the child milk first then if it remains, you can take but you cannot take the milk and leave the child to cry.

I004: Why do you give the child and you do not take milk yourself?

P465: The child just say mum help me with milk.

I004: So milk was important to you when you were young?

P465: Yes because when I asked my mother for milk, she could give me since I loved milk so much. So now I have kids I cannot take milk alone because my children are still young.

I004: Mmmh how does milk help a child?

P465: How it helps them?

I004: Yes for example when she asks for milk and you give her water is there any problem?

P465: She will refuse.

I004: So you make for her ngarebusi (water mixed with milk)?

P465: No, She will take milk and that shows the importance of milk to a child, but when she wants ngarebusi she will definitely say.

I004: Nowadays getting milk has been very difficult and even if milk is found then it is sold at a higher price?

P465: Yes.

I004: Please tell me why has it become hard to get milk?

P465: Drought.

I004: So drought is the cause?

P465: Yes.

I004: What else has led to the low production of milk?

P465: It is because cows are not feeding well and also diseases are the major influence of the shortage of milk.

I004: Okay, anything else apart from drought and diseases what else can influence the shortage of milk?

P465: Environmental changes has also affected some of the grass/ leaves which was very popular for the cow but it has disappeared I do not know where it went.

I004: So those leaves/ grass are no longer found?

P465: Yes they are not there anymore, and cows used to like them.

I004: Okay, is it that boys do not herd the cattle well like in the past you could take cows even to Dodoma.

P465: That has also influenced because it is not like in the past if I you were been told to go and herd the cattle by that time my father had no worries about it but for now you tell a boy to herd he does not do it well make the cows cross the road and leaves the cow to his younger brother who do not care even some cows go to other people’s farms because the elder brother is not there.

I004: What has caused the boy child to behave in this manner? Why has this behaviour changed?

P465: Mmmh they play and forget about the cattle’s.

I004: Mmmh.

P466: for example in a group of five boys some of them their parents employed a herdsman some of them they herd by themselves so they start asking themselves why can’t our parents also employ someone to look after the cows like this other parents do because their friends are enjoying themselves and their good things that have come up in town now for example the bars that are in town the boys go and drink and also find beautiful girls in the bars hence it will make them look for money to go and enjoy themselves too.

I004: Mmmh so the behaviour that the boys have started makes the production of milk go low because they do not want to herd cows in the field?

P465: Yes.

I004: Okay let us now talk about the family which kind of food does the father buys most of the time?

P465: Mostly it is maize, rice and bananas.

I004: That is what you eat mostly?

P465: Yes.

I004: Now who tells the father to buy food is it you or he goes by himself?

P465: I normally tell him today we want this kind of food and you are given money to go and buy.

I004: Mmmh okay so if you want to buy food like vegetables, fruits, eggs or meat where do you get them?

P465: Meat?

I004: Yes.

P465: We have goats here.

I004: Okay, what about vegetables, fruits, bananas tomatoes where do you get them because you do not do farm them?

P465: In town.

I004: Where is the town?

P465: Along the road.

I004: Along the road?

P465: Yes there are also people who hawk around like bananas, tomatoes

I004: They hawk?

P465: Yes most of the time they do hawk them.

I004: Okay, when you were in Mbeya did you have people who hawked these things like they do here?

P465: Yes, but mostly they do not buy.

I004: But you now buy when you are here at home?

P465: Nowadays we like vegetables.

I004: Those days you did not like taking vegetables eeeh?

P465: Yes, these days’ going without eating vegetables is a bit hard.

I004: What influences you to cook what you cook for your family, what is it makes you to cook pilau or bananas or potatoes today?

P465: When you want to eat a variety of food like today you can eat rice, tomorrow may be vegetables or you boil milk and put flour and salt and eat.

I004: Kididio right?

P465: Yes.

I004: Ahaa so it is how you feel if you want to cook this today you can do it what if the family members do not like what you cooked?

P465: You can cook vegetables and the children do not like them they want milk and so you give them milk and you eat vegetables.

I004: So if you decide today we are cooking this you cook?

P465: Yes.

I004: What else makes you cook what you cook?

P465: You will be surprised when you cook beans and you children tell you I do not want to eat beans I do not like them.

I004: So it will force you to look for another food?

P465: Yes.

I004: Have you ever missed food because there was drought or may be the situation was too bad till you could not get food?

P465: Yes, sometimes we do not have maize so our mother used to prepare porridge and drink.

I004: Do people complain about food shortage in other places?

P465: Yes.

I004: Which year was that can you remember?

P465: No I cannot even remember.

I004: You were very young by then, you were in which class?

P465: I cannot even remember I was still young.

I004: Like how old were you? Is it 4 years?

P465: I was like this young child of mine here.

I004: How old is he?

P465: 10 years.

I004: That is when there was lack of food due to drought?

P465: Yes.

I004: Did you ever lack food when you were still young and now that you are a grown up and what was the cause?

P465: Yes, it is there.

I004: When was that, which year?

P465: 2005.

I004: What was the cause?

P465: There was drought.

I004: Just here?

P465: Yes here then we moved to another place since there was drought we travelled for 3 days without rain till we reached a place where it was raining.

I004: Aaah.

P465: Because for us we have never moved to another place since we came here in the year 2000 but in 2005 the situation was worse and forced us to move to another place.

I004: Okay. So how did you overcome the situation?

P465: Yes it was hard to get food.

I004: How did you survive then?

P465: We could cook a meal in the morning and we all eat if you delay you will not find food so we were advised the food to be cooked in one place we all eat then we wait to again eat at 8 in the evening.

I004: So that is how you prepare your food?

P465: Yes.

I004: So you have said there was no food what about money?

P465: Money was also a problem because you find out that if you have 10000 shillings is like 1000 shillings when you change ten thousand shillings it gets over very first and whatever you wanted to buy requires a lot of money. And also there is a disease that has come up and affected the cows that has not been caused by drought it is just a disease.

I004: Eeeh it is not drought it is just a disease?

P465: Yes, you know it is us who look after the cows we cut for them leaves from the tree and they eat very well then we dig a borehole so that they can get water but still they are affected.

I004: Okay mother let us discuss about nutrition and health, have you ever heard about good health, nutrition and healthy lifestyle like what you should eat example vegetables, fruits which is good for our body, have you ever heard of that and where did you get the information?

P465: I go to the clinics.

I004: Okay, what were you told at the clinic?

P465: Yes we are told on how you can give you child a good diet and sometimes you go to the hospital you find that they are selling things and you buy them.

I004: So you are the one who buys them?

P465: Yes.

I004: Okay after you have been educated have you ever tried doing what you were taught at home for example eating fruits and vegetables or you do not eat?

P465: We do not eat?

I004: Why you do not eat them?

P465: When they finish we leave it there.

P466: I have never seen that because since her first pregnancy she was eating everything we were eating, it is only on the third pregnancy that I heard her saying I should not eat this because when we went to the hospital and the doctor said I should eat fruits, and vegetables because her blood is low in the body and now come home and buy for her and she takes.

I004: So you came and did what was said in the hospital?

P466: Yes.

I004: So you the one who followed instructions?

P465: Yes, I took because I was worried about my health since I had less blood.

I004: If people wants to come and teach you and your family about nutrition and healthy lifestyle do you want?

P465: Yes we do.

I004: Since you need it what will we do so that this education can reach everyone in this village? Give us a secret on what we should do?

P465: Where there are groups.

I004: Do you think churches and schools will spread the information or we go to the market and we use a microphone to spread the information?

P465: In church.

I004: What about in schools the information will not reach them or?

P465: It will.

I004: Okay when you pass through the church so many people will get the education?

P465: Yes.

I004: Who do you think deserve to get that knowledge is it the father or mother or children?

P465: Mothers and women in general because since I started attending those meetings I have never told my husband so the mothers first then the men can get the information later.

I004: So you do not want the men to listen to the news on good health?

P466: Most of the time it is the women who go and get the education and then they come and brief the men because mostly the message is being passed across targets the mothers so they go there without even asking us.

I004: But it is good to let men know what you have been taught?

P465: Ohh yes.

I004: Thank you mother for your time we have come to the end of our interview.