Altium Designer new pricing model and high end / low end tool in development - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: koko79
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2013, 10:40:01 am
content: Hey guys just caught this -http://www.altium.com/resources/investor_announcement/asx_releases/ASX_Announcement_Altium_Investor_Presentation_FY2014.pdfCan't work out if this is good or bad for Altium!Any thoughts?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2013, 10:54:12 am
content: QuoteandQuoteThis is absolutely the best thing they can do, and it's what the customers (and many employees) have been screaming for for about a decade now. Seriously, a decade.But I fully expect them to screw it up, as Altium always seem to do, but at least they will try.I seriously need to do my video with my tips for how they should do this.I heard it would be October, but don't quote me on that.And they finally admit publicly:"Over 90% of Altium's revenue comes from PCB business"Which means that the 13 years and the entire company fortune they spent on FPGA has been a complete waste.

author: koko79
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2013, 11:27:36 am
content: Well I think something needs to happen. They recently released financial figures year ending June 30 2013. US $69.2 million in sales which resulted in US $1.4 million in profit after tax. Hmm interesting times ahead!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2013, 11:37:46 am
content: Quote from: koko79 on August 30, 2013, 11:27:36 amI should have bought those shares at 10 cents...

author: koko79
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2013, 01:18:10 pm
content: 8AU cents dividend for those that did! Not sure if that eats into the US$1.4m profit after tax.Loos like they want a piece of the Cadence, Mentor and Zuken high end PCB pie.Is it possible to write that higher end software and get it to market on those profit margins??Those high end customers will still want a SI solution.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2013, 01:49:40 pm
content: Quote from: koko79 on August 30, 2013, 01:18:10 pmWhilst their current offering in this area is sorely lacking, it wouldn't take much to make it competitive.They already have access to a 3d model of the copper they just need to get their hands on a field solver engine.On the layout side they need to sort out some of the length matching stuff, like being able to recognize an entire signal path regardless of series terminators for example

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2013, 01:58:59 pm
content: Quote from: koko79 on August 30, 2013, 01:18:10 pmNot originally, but the majority of the (expensive) original PCB code group are now gone.I have no idea how competent the new cheaper hires in Shanghai and the Ukraine are, but assuming they have a big enough group who know their stuff I don't think it would be that hard to get the SI up to scratch. Not really super duper high end, but good enough to compete for most tasks, and that's all they need. To shoot for industry leading SI would be silly, just like FPGA was.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2013, 01:59:16 am
content: Altium could release a powerful, easy to use, quick to learn PCB tool tomorrow, with no development cost.It's called P-CAD2006

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2013, 07:53:31 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on August 31, 2013, 01:59:16 amSure, or Circuitmaker 2000, but either would be a bad move.The code base is no longer supported, and it doesn't provide seamless upgrades to high priced version of Altium Designer.They would be crazy to do anything but release stripped down Altium Designer, which has never actually been that hard to do if thy wanted to. But sounds like they are going the whole hog and rejigging the entire code base to separate the functional modules etc.What they need is:- A free version of some sort. This isabsolutely essentialfor complete market domination of Altium designer. But sadly is something they are very likely to overlook. Eagle having a free version is thesole reasonwhy it is now the defacto standard PCB tool in the hobbyist/hacker/maker community. Eagle has more seats than Altium, and they could steal a majority of those seats within months with a good free version. A low cost paid version will not cut the mustard here. If they want total market domination they must do this.A free version would have absolutely no company support, and could even have a non-commercial license like Eagle does. But they could one-up Eagle by having some limited commercial use for free.- A low cost version which that are obviously going ahead with. There are many ways to skin this cat. To be commercially viable I suspect the price has to be somewhere in the $200-$500 category. They could perhaps even have a 3 or 4 tear pricing system. e.g.1) FREE2) sub $100 limited commercial use3) $200-$500 sweet spot for the low end users.4) Maybe $500-$2K for slightly higher end users5) Full version as it stands currentlyFor the The low cost cost versions, you wouldn't bother with any company sales or support at all, it would be fully automated PayPal ordering/download and forum support only.But here I think is the kicker,all versions must includeat least the following:- 3D- BOM/Supplier/price stuff- Full library access- Full schematicWithout those things, you aren't going to get the "wow" factor that will draw people into the Altium world.So they need to differentiate the product based on other things, like for example:- FREE and limited version get say 2 layers and size restriction.- The "low cost" $200-$500 price point gets unlimited size and 4 layers.- The high end or full versions get stuff like interactive routing, autorouting, simulation, SI, FPGA, pin swapping, embedded, snippets etc etc.You could argue that manual interactive routing belongs in the essential "wow" category.And really, Altium,no one gives a shitabout FPGA and embedded stuff, really, they don't, they never have and they never will want Altium to provide that solution. Pin swapping if the only FPGA thing that matters. You will never be able to have a real industry solution in FPGA or embedded, ever. You spent 13 years on that dream, you failed, drop it and move on, leave it to the FPGA manufacturers and companies that do it right. But you know that of course, and now admit that 90%+ of your income comes from PCB, as it always has and always will.I do think that around $500 is the upper sweet spot to take on the low end market. $1K will be too much, and under $200 is chump change.If this low cost version doesn't include any company sales or support effort as I mentioned then it becomes money for jam. That is the position you want to be in.

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2013, 11:00:15 am
content: I'm looking forward to having Altium as an affordable alternative to Eagle........but also having Eagle raise their game to counteract..................well, I live in hope anyways!Right now, Altium is too expensive........and Eagle won't listen and fix some fundemental issues (form me) with their product (I just have the hobbyist license). Shame!.....because the money is waiting.Ian.

author: alexmackuk
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 01, 2013, 04:59:44 pm
content: This has probably already been said/asked (but I just signed up so forgive me! LOL)... but the thing I find hard is comparing the packages available in any meaningful way. I currently use something called Proteus (from Yorkshire - formerly ISIS and ARES a separate schematic and PCB pair but now an integrated tool) which is pretty good (probably low- to lower-mid-end) for anything up to 6-layers but lacks finesse when dealing with things like BGA packages and multi-layer tracking. For instance it lacks anything to deal with tracks that need to be length or impedance matched such as LVDS or tracks that you would want routing together (such as data or address lines) - anything like that has to be manually tracked.I've always vaguely lusted after Altium Designer without really being able to justify the cost so would probably bite at the cheap version... but I would not really know what benefits I would be getting until I actually tried it!Have you ever done any detailed comparisons of low-, mid- and high-end (although they're all out my price range!) design systems? You can find reviews, etc on the web and you can watch the sellers videos and blurb but the reviews are often partisan and the promotional materials only every show you the good stuff and not the bad.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2013, 09:40:39 pm
content: In terms of limits, I think maybe a component count limit may be an alternative to a size limit - not sure of the pros/cons but it is something they did with PCAD (6 layer, 400 components I think).I'm not convinced about the whole commercial/noncommercial thing as it's completely unenforceable - I think you have to give some functionality benefit for buying the lowest end - maybe an increase in size/component count. Maybe 3D.

author: ElectroIrradiator
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 08:49:25 am
content: Am I the only one, who feel that 4 layer support even for a free version seem almost mandatory these days?With 3+ layers you can have an uninterrupted signal path on one layer, located above an unbroken ground plane. This leaves the other side plus any remaining layers for routing power rails and control signals. Given the speed that many hobbyist widgets run at these days, then even very small items can frequently benefit from proper RF layout techniques and shielding. I would almost say it is a bit of a 'crime' to force hobbyists and beginners to only use two layers, as in many instances it would forces them into making various suboptimal kludges on high speed analog and digital designs. A two layer limit would prevent them from learning how to do things properly, nor could you teach them how due to lack of proper toolsWith only two layers you are forced to reserve one of them for the ground plane, which means you will often need jumpers in order to make 'clean' RF technique aware designs for the signal path(s). Or is there some deep PCB layout topological secret regarding two layer RF designs, which no-one has bothered to teach me yet?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 09:08:50 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on September 01, 2013, 09:40:39 pmSure, either way would work if implemented sensibly.QuoteIt's not, and that's not the idea anyway.If the "commercial" tool is priced resonably enough, a good majority of users will go legit.That is why I suggested the Eagle method of $569 for the "commercial" version of the same stripped free down version. It's a no-brainer price for almost anyone.Then you have the proper intended "low cost" version at the $200-$500 price point.QuoteI believe 3D must be present in all version, even the free one. It's the "killer feature" that will suck people into the tool. Although they could leave out mechanical 3D DRC or something like that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 09:11:39 am
content: Quote from: ElectroIrradiator on September 02, 2013, 08:49:25 amI don't think so.Many quite complex designs can be fitted on a 2 layer board.QuoteTrue. But most hobbyists are likely going to squeeze designs onto 2 layers anyway to take advantage of the enormous range of low cost 2 layer PCB proto services.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 09:13:46 am
content: Quote from: alexmackuk on September 01, 2013, 04:59:44 pmNo, I haven't done such videos. It's hard to do that when I've been using Altium/Protel for more than 20 years. It wouldn't be a fair comparison when I'm intimately familiar with one package, and not the others.

author: alexmackuk
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 02, 2013, 10:02:03 am
content: Yes, I'm in much the same boat with Proteus - I've been using it for long enough that things that it probably does wrong are masked by my experience and other packages seem clunky by virtue of unfamiliarity.It was so much easier to choose when it was sticky crepe traces and pre-cut pads at 2:1 or 4:1 on mylar sheets! (I've still got the A0 light-box).If Altium put something out at <£500 then it will be a no brainer to give it a proper try.

author: olepr01@gmail.com
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2013, 08:27:27 am
content: As an example of someone elses take on the problem of expensive software/poor hobbyists, look at Mathematica from Worlfram. The full package costs an arm and a leg (an extra leg if you need to pay VAT), but rather than releasing a crippled version they sell the complete, full-featured program forhome useat a massive discount. The only difference is that the software isonly licenced for noncommercial use.Those who want to stay legit use it within the legal limit. Those who do not care about the legitimacy of the software they use would probably just pirate it anyway, but this way at least theres some revenue from them. So theres no real reason to have a crippled version, IMHO..In my opinion the right way to go, I can at least say that Wolfram has got more of my personal money than any other software-vendor.

author: graynomad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 06:30:07 am
content: Yeah I know, slightly old thread but anyway I have two things to add.2/4 layer, with the cheap prices of PCB fab these days I never even consider 2 layer any more, 4 layer is much easier to route.And from the "I heard it from a mate" department, just the other day I heard from a mate who works for a large Oz company that the light version will NOT include schematic capture. Personally I find that impossible to believe and said as much. My mate felt the same and also said as much to the rep (or whoever) he was dealing with. But that was the story.I still can't believe that because how on earth would it work without importing the schematic?I used to use pre-release Protel versions (sort of beta testing I guess) when it was written by two blokes in a Tasmanian shed, then I left the game for a long time and when I came back Protel had morphed into humungous bloatware of which I only need about 20%, if that.Anyway it will be interesting to see what happens with this.BTW I reckon Dave's feature/pricing structure is pretty spot on.EDIT: I see from that marketing PDFQuoteMaybe they are going to split the F(ing)PGA and other stuff from the core schem/PCB software.______Rob

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 06:41:32 am
content: Quote from: graynomad on January 09, 2014, 06:30:07 amThat's what Altium are famous for, doing the ridiculous. I hope that's not still the case now that Nick Martin is gone.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 08:49:24 am
content: Ok, I'm lost here... How the hell are you supposed to use PCB CAD without schematic capture? Write the netlist by hand to a txt file?!

author: graynomad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 09:42:30 am
content: Got me buggered, maybe import from EagleIt's hearsay though, not verified and one would assume almost impossible for even Altium to shoot themselves in the foot that badly.______Rob

author: andtfoot
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 10:00:20 am
content: Quote from: poorchava on January 09, 2014, 08:49:24 amI've done it before for really simple stuff. Just drag out the footprints only and connect them based on relevant chicken-scratching/back-of-napkin circuit.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 11:18:24 am
content: Quote from: graynomad on January 09, 2014, 09:42:30 amDon't put it past them, seriously, they once made the PCB tool optional extra. As in, you got everything BUT the PCB tool.They marketed it under the slogan "turning the world of electronics design upside down"

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 11:49:25 am
content: Quote from: andtfoot on January 09, 2014, 10:00:20 amOh yes, just like Wintek's SmartWork back in the 80's............so maybe Altium have aquired the source code from them........I better brush up then....F2 was place-pad wasn't it?Ian.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2014, 01:18:42 pm
content: Quote from: IanJ on January 09, 2014, 11:49:25 amI've done that too. But then it's not much better than Corel, Inkscape or Autocad

author: Brorulf
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 26, 2014, 08:59:35 pm
content: yes yes yes. Finally after 10 year they have decided to do, what Auto CAD is doing with their light version . Or Eagle cad for that mater.please, don't do a Size crippled version ow the program. As for example. PCB Size, Rat net Size, PGA Size...Its better to not include advanced functionality in the program.Or make a restriction on number of components. Not number of connections on the component. Please.Please don't exclude a auto router.And let the 3D capacitate stay.And... … Hmmm!? Well?.. Hmm. AAA, and maybe make the program modular. So any wan can grow in functionality over time.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 26, 2014, 09:46:51 pm
content: Quote from: Brorulf on January 26, 2014, 08:59:35 pmWhy?I think an autorouter is an excellent and obvious feature to leave out of a low end tool.

author: Frost
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2014, 10:10:54 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 26, 2014, 09:46:51 pmThat's true.The simple PCBs I designed as a hobby user, I have always routed by hand.So I bought eagle without the autorouter and never missed the function.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2014, 10:19:02 pm
content: AR should certainly not at the expense of other features.The only difference between having an autorouter or not is how much time it takes to do the job.A low-end tool is aimed at people who can't/won't throw money at a problem to save time. Therefore an autorouter has to be a lower priority than other features.A lower cost tool has to have some features missing compared to the higher end version, so in deciding the feature set, you basically decide where on a list of capabilities to draw the line(s) between versions.So the presence of an autorouter would probably be at the expense of other features. A "cheap" autorouter is probably worse than none at all, especially on the low layer counts that low-end users are likely to be using.A low-end package by definition has to have some things left out or limited, and the list of what a low-end PCB package should have, there are plenty of things, e.g. 3D, that would be a higher priority.Unfortunately autorouters, like pick & place machines, are attractive to people that don't understand the issues involved using them.

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2014, 10:23:39 pm
content: Quote from: ElectroIrradiator on September 02, 2013, 08:49:25 amThey could do what DipTrace does. Unlimited ground and power planes but only two signal planes. Which to me makes sense.Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk

author: graynomad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2014, 11:26:03 pm
content: QuotePlease DO exclude the auto router, apart from the above arguments it's bloody useless anyway.After many years of not touching AR I recently decided to give it a try again, after all it's been 20 years or more, the algorithms must be pretty good by now eh?I routed a part of a board, not bad, a bit of cleaning up to do, then I did some more, still reasonable, then I let it rip. What an effing dog's breakfast. Thanks but no thanks, I'll route by hand.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2014, 07:57:01 am
content: I've never seen an autorouter worth its time. At least Altium has some "gloss" features that kind of sort of make it not painfully ugly, but it's still just bad.I was playing around recently in Ultiboard 11, what a mess the autorouter makes...Tim

author: matkar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2014, 09:57:33 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on January 27, 2014, 07:57:01 amTrue. Autorouter is not for beginners. To make a usable product with AR you have to set a very strict package of rules. Not mentioning placing components plays a major role in AR success rate. Even so you often have to correct some weirdness AR leaves behind. Adding all up, you're quicker routing by hand.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2014, 10:44:52 pm
content: I recently saw a demo of "push and shove" routing. This on kicad developed by CERN engineers. It looks really good and much better than any AR I have ever tried.One thing though, the only PCB package I have ever found to autoroute single side boards with auto generated top layer jumpers is an ancient AutoCAD (v9?) or Cadence. I hate them though, the UI is just like a 386 MS-DOS/Windows mutation with a mix of mouse and weird keyboard spanking. The whole package was/is really clunky.I do miss the auto jumper facility as my ancient supply of single side PCBs and UV, etching tank etc, is still great for prototypingI use RS DesignSpark for now. It's really nice but of course produces an RS BOM (I have a Farnell add-in for that though!)I think I will check out kicad...

author: graynomad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2014, 10:45:39 pm
content: Trouble is I think many beginners think AR is a silver bullet that will do all the work and save them from having to learn the nuances of PCB design. I can certainly see the attraction, especially if you just want to do a single board and don't plan to become a PCB guru.As I said, they were crap 20 years ago but I thought they would be good by now. Wrong! Still crap.

author: GrumpyUnclePete
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 02:24:13 am
content: I've been using Protel 98 for years now. I love it. Small, fast, simple, effective. But now, horror of horrors, we've been forced to "upgrade" to Windows 7 (64 bit) and of course now my old friend Protel won't play anymore. Yeah, I tried running it under XP Virtual Machine but that has major issues.Anyway, as of yesterday I gave up. We've always had Altium Designer on our company network. We did some of their courses years ago and I've used it for doing simple Xilinx CPLD designs using schematic entry (don't judge me...) and it has generally been OK. I used it a bit in the early days for PCB work but quickly reverted back to Protel. Now I have to bite the bullet. AD13 - it's horrible. Too horrible for words. In frustration I typed "Altium Designer is rubbish" into Google and ended up here!The thought that Altium could bring out a stripped down package certainly gives me a glimmer of hope. But I fear the chances of them actually giving us what we need are minimal at best. The whole Designer package has just gone way too far off the rails to ever return. Maybe attacking it from the other end would work better - could somebody find the Protel 98 code and bring it into the present? Surely it's not that hard?! I'd pay real money for that!Just in case our new Chinese overlords ever finish up here - feed this into your spybot. <rant> I just want a Protel 2014! Please!! I don't need autorouting or 64,000 layers. I don't need a manager for every little process. I don't want 32 options in a menu (yes, I counted them). I don't need a query builder. I don't want to create an Output Job File just so I can print something out! I don't need three different ways of running the same command. I want nothing to do with vaults or clouds. And I definitely don't need FPGA developement or anything to do with a damn nanoboard! Just something small, fast and effective for designing PCB's. Is it really that hard? </rant>Fortunately I can still use 98 at home. I use it for therapy after I've been at work all day battling AD13! Ahhhh - so refreshing...Pete (now with more grumpiness!)

author: graynomad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 02:26:28 am
content: Well said. Take 3 valium and report back tomorrow

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 02:59:05 am
content: Quote from: GrumpyUnclePete on January 30, 2014, 02:24:13 amWell, it is really. They'd have to support two different code bases, and then there is no upgrade path for people from the lite version to the full version. So it would be pretty foolish to even try doing that. Same thing with PCAD or Circuitmaker 2000.The latest Altium does offer some really valuable stuff over Protel 98 or 99SE, it's well worth getting to learn it.

author: Alphatronique
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 03:10:44 am
content: Hi GrumpyUnclePetewhat you describe was named P-cad 2006 O0opuss sorry altium have die and put it on the trash after promise to integrate it to altium DXP ..the fun joke it offer me a discount of 50% for "Upgrade" to altiumthat good have paid p-cad 12,000$ and offer to "upgrade" to altium that sell for 5,000personally i call it paid for downgrade but altium sale rep see it as major upgradeso now i use zuken but learn curve was very sharp ,i hope some one made P-Cad 2014 ;-) so easy to use and intuitive and do only PCB noting else

author: GrumpyUnclePete
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 03:24:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 30, 2014, 02:59:05 amWhich part exactly is the valuable bit? I'm all ears because at present I don't have a choice - I have to use Altium Designer.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 04:33:22 am
content: Quote from: GrumpyUnclePete on January 30, 2014, 03:24:36 amThe 3D is worth the price of admission alone. Not just for actual 3D parts, but for seeing your board with mask, silk etc before you make it.

author: graynomad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 04:45:00 am
content: I second that, 3D is amazingly useful. You can put your board into an enclosure, and check mechanical clearances between parts. If you have multiple PCBs you can put them together to see if the connectors really do match. etc etc.It takes a while to amass a good collection of 3D models though.

author: GrumpyUnclePete
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 05:52:10 am
content: I look forward to viewing my new board in glorious 3D. Oh, after I edit all my library parts to include the 3D data.I'm sure the project manager won't mind paying for the extra time involved.I'm off home to find those valium..

author: Chopsticks
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 06:37:31 am
content: Just wondering what people's views are on them going cross platform to include Linux and Apple Mac? Is it even feasible to do so? Eagle does and dip trace does to an extent using wine...

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 06:49:53 am
content: Dave, another tip for them. At least WINE compatible (Like DipTrace).Alexander.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 08:16:40 am
content: Quote from: Chopsticks on January 30, 2014, 06:37:31 amAltium has always been written in Delphi. The software devs can tell you how feasible it would be to do that...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 08:17:50 am
content: Quote from: GrumpyUnclePete on January 30, 2014, 05:52:10 amNo, you don't need to do that, just hit the 3D button and you get your blank board in 3D. That alone is incredibly useful as a visual aid.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 08:22:09 am
content: Aside from mechanical cad interaction, I find 3d mode incredibly useful for interaction with customers, especially those who are not engineers (or otherwise technically competent). If you are presenting stuff to a client, 3d model is so much better than black/red/blue 2d mosaic.

author: graynomad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 09:25:29 am
content: QuoteYes good point, non-tech people can much more relate to a 3D pic.

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 09:31:56 am
content: Diptrace is (very) slowly going native mac thanks to new native delphi compilers:http://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi/mac-osx-developmentI think I remembered reading that they have finished porting their code to Delphi XE5 for windows.edit: very slim info here:http://www.diptrace.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=132&start=20

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 09:33:47 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 30, 2014, 08:16:40 amDelphi RAD is one thing... the exclusion of OpenGL engine also can give you some hint. Diptrace also developed in Delphi but it is claimed to run in MacOX as well.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 09:42:52 am
content: With regards to going cross-platform, I think that realistically it would be a waste of time and effort for Altium to even try, even if they could do it.The reason is simple. Altium is a serious CAD tool, and if you want to use it, then you will use whatever hardware and O/S it's designed for. When you spend $5K-$6K on CAD software, it's nothign to dedicate a $1K-$2K machine to run it. This isn't consumer software land. There is a reason why hardly any pro engineering tools work on the Mac

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 09:45:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 30, 2014, 08:17:50 amAssuming your library parts have 3D models...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 09:50:51 am
content: Quote from: Alphatronique on January 30, 2014, 03:10:44 amWhen they retired PCAD I had a look at AD but soon the dealer I wouldn't "upgrade" even if it was free. PCAD2006 still works just fine for me - no probs working on Win7.The only issue I had is they refused to sell me an upgrade from the 400 component limit, but it took me about 2 mins to find a full license serial number online & didn't even need to reinstall - I'd have been happy to pay but if they won't take my money then screw 'em.I have heard that someone was doing a clone of PCAD but would be surprised if it ever happens.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 09:51:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 30, 2014, 09:42:52 ami thought a "serious CAD"s use OpenGL instead of "game oriented" DirectX. i dont know, but from reading internet, Altium is not classified as "high end" CAD. YMMV. :edit: and maybe this is due to the long historic war between MsDX and OGL, Altium has picked there side and forced users to do the same...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 10:27:14 am
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 30, 2014, 09:45:10 amNo, I'm talking about theblankboard. You don't need 3D library parts for that, and it's still incredibly useful to get a photo realistic rendering of what your board will look like. You can even "fly" inside layers and via holes etc.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 10:29:20 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on January 30, 2014, 09:51:10 amI said serious CAD tool, not "high end". Altium is a mid level tool, pushing into a the high-ish end, depending upon how you define high end.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 01:15:09 pm
content: Quote from: GrumpyUnclePete on January 30, 2014, 03:24:36 amPush and shoveBus routingAD13 is stablePolygon pours actually workThese are the biggies for me. But I agree with the vaults, FPGA stuff, software development etc. I don't see value in Altium's direction, and I let my subscription expire.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 02:45:36 pm
content: Quote from: GrumpyUnclePete on January 30, 2014, 05:52:10 amYou are not really getting it. You can get to see the board in 3D along with other 3D objects such as other boards and enclosures, panels, displays/whatever. You can have a 3D model of the board to use in a 3D model of whatever it fits in. You get 3D clearance checking on the board and between the board and other 3D objects.At 3D view of the board and components is very useful. An almost photo-realistic view of a PCB without components is very useful. Many times in the past I have opened the packet and looked at a fabbed PCB and thought why didn't I do this or that.Some of my customers simply demand 3D models of boards I design. If your company doesn't think it has a use for them maybe you should be asking why.

author: Scutarius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 04:50:21 pm
content: I don't think that an OS is such a big deal nowadays, it should not be an issue its just a matter of which OS you like and do the best job for you, and if you are limiting that option (only mac or only windows) you are loosing, that's it.Of corse it is a big deal to code for different platforms, specially in Altium's complexity, but you don't just stop because of that, you invest and in the way you get a more robust software that doesn't depends on windows moves (dlls, drivers etc etc)That's how I see thinks.

author: jpb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 04:58:51 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 30, 2014, 09:42:52 amLogically this is correct, but some companies have odd policies regarding budgets so that it is easier to get software signed off than it is to get hardware (which may come under the category of capital expense). At least this is what the small company I worked in found on occasion. If you require a customer to buy hardware in addition, even if it is comparatively very cheap, you may delay or lose some sales.

author: bxs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 05:32:57 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 30, 2014, 09:42:52 amIf Altium want to enter the more entry level market they need to start looking at other OSs, those people will want to use Altium on their PCs and with that with their installed OS.Quote from: EEVblog on January 30, 2014, 09:42:52 amAbout MAC I don't know, but for Linux exist really serious EDA software and some companies only accept Linux.Quote from: EEVblog on January 30, 2014, 09:42:52 amIf you go for the future entry level version of Altium all those numbers don't matter anymore.

author: bxs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 06:13:03 pm
content: About cross-platform and my point of view...The main problem seems the Delphi and DirectX stuff.Let's start with the simplest one, the DX, simple don't exist an excuse for them not ported the code for OpenGL, this is something that they should have done years ago, even if for now they are locked on Windows. Using and maintaining a OS specific 3D language/API when we have OpenGLAbout Delphi, where to start???So Borland liked Pascal and wanted a object oriented language and Delphi born; so it was a new stuff only of Borland but nonetheless many software used it, today I'm still surprised of it's success, being it a so locked thing.For years so many code was wrote that make it almost a no go porting it, it's what I think happened with Altium...Back in the late 90s early 2000s I was also one of those sold out by Borland propaganda and all the promises of Delphi and C++ Builder going cross-platform, at least Linux; several years ago just for fun I exchanged some messages with I think at the time CodeGear(Borland -> CodeGear) about all those promises and they continue saying me that support for Linux were around the corner...But guess what, now at 2014, let's say 15 years later and no Linux supportWTFThis don't affect me any more because many years ago I decided that I would not develop any more software that was OS locked.Maybe Altium also listened the "Borland propaganda"

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 07:23:15 pm
content: Quote from: bxs on January 30, 2014, 06:13:03 pmthen what is the comparable version of Delphi RAD for the not-OS-locked environment? i like the concept of OS-independent development but i cant find any "Window-GUI-control-drop-down" IDE as good as Delphi or even VB6-like environment.i dont have issue with Altium forcing Windows OS since i'm a MsWindows user as well, and we certainly cannot blame entirely to Altium on this really (maybe due to business model, market size and SW/HW support for a particular OS). but the problem is even some cheap/older/non-compliance display driver in Win cannot run Altium just because of the fancy bell whistle of 3D. i find it unacceptable for AD to reject built-in motherboard display card and laptops, not at the current value and capacity of Altium Enterprise... from a software developer point of view, this all seems like a laziness imho, people did this from many years in the past in games and pro-CAD where compatibility/variant among GPUs was a major concern. providing option for lower quality rendering, or making a separate/encapsulated/OOP OpenGL class and a simple click to divert rendering code path is not a mega effort afaik. with a simple inclusion of OpenGL class (simple if they do it right, but a nightmare if they do it wrong) with just a finger snap, probably Altium will run nicely in most virtualboxes/Wines. they should learn from Diptrace even though it is a small market. just probably and just my 2cnts.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 09:45:34 pm
content: Delphi isn't necessarily a deal breaker for porting to OtherOS: Lazarus is a freeware clone which runs on Linux, for instance:http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/

author: MatCat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 10:18:44 pm
content: For a minute I was running AD13 in a VM under linux, it worked but the 3D stuff didn't work quite right. Honestly going to linux is probably going to be a MUST, if they don't do it now they are going to be really struggling in about 5 years when 90% of all working machines are running Android / some other linux (anyone else see AMD announce new ARM based chipset for the desktop / server???)). I don't think we are going to see a continued viable MS OS solution for too much longer, their market slid right off the plate. Look at the gaming industry, Valve is pumping millions into finally getting the graphics working right on linux as tablets and phones become the mainstream computing device all running Android linux, and the CPU fabs are all switching over to ARM architecture for more and more non-mobile devices. I give it 5 years and only mission critical machines that companies just can't be bothered to deal with changing are going to be running MS.

author: bxs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 10:28:19 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on January 30, 2014, 07:23:15 pmI always was more BCB/C++ then Delphi/Pacal, that said, I went with Qt as the framework, for me it was gold since is core is C++ have GUI and classes that abstract almost everything in the OS and moreAlso these days you can use Qt for free even on commercial software.With the QtCreator IDE you get "Window-GUI-control-drop-down", it isn't so good but works well enough and do the job.For people that don't want C++ exist lots of bindings for other languages, like Pascal.For a Delphi similar thing in Linux(and other OSs) you have Lazarus, that use several widgets, of of those is Qt

author: Pat Pending
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 10:33:26 pm
content: Quote from: MatCat on January 30, 2014, 10:18:44 pmSadly I have to agree. The PC for power users is morphing into something else and the necessity of an MS OS is changing.I have to wonder if we are headed full circle back to the days of workstations (remember Sun Sparcs/Apollo) for serious power users.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 10:58:05 pm
content: Speaking of compatibility, apparently Altium doesn't run too well on hardware other than NVidia. Did some work for a company, the laptop I was working on was no slouch -- a favorably rated Intel graphics chipset -- yet Altium ran like crap in all views: schematic and 2D and 3D PCB. I didn't even know you could do that with DX-supporting chipsets.As for a move to OpenGL or something, hopefully that would clear up such compatibility issues, but at some expense to speed (more levels of abstraction and more processing to implement equivalent operations), plus the large expense in development and bug-squashing to port it over in the first place, and replace all those dubiously-compatible APIs. (Mind, IANA graphics coder..)As for compatibility in general... whether you wish to accept it or not, business as usual is very much PC and MS centric. I have yet to see a company that uses, say, OpenOffice files as standard. If your spreadsheets aren't .xls or .xlsx, and you can't view them correctly, you're going to have problems.Tim

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 11:53:45 pm
content: QuoteUK government is about to dump Microsoft and go Open Office:Bye Bye MicrosoftThat will allow companies to follow: if it's good enough for the government your supplier/client can accept the same or be olde phartes.Coupled to which, Microsoft is actively pushing users off their products to force them onto the stuff they hate - witness XP being not just EoL but an open backdoor from April if you haven't moved on since then. If they pull the same trick with W7, is everyone going to migrate to W8.1 like Microsoft hope? After being a lifelong Microsoft user since MSDOS2 days, and with many thousands invested in PC software, my next upgrade will be to Linux rather than another Windows. The only question is how much software I can take with me via Wine or a VM.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 30, 2014, 11:59:36 pm
content: Quote from: bxs on January 30, 2014, 06:13:03 pmProtel was originally written in Turbo Pascal for DOS, then when they made the bet on Windows, Delphi was the obvious choice, and a perfectly good choice at the time.Then what do you do when you are locked into a tool like that? It's very hard to make the decision to switch it all to another language when things creep up on you slowly, with Delphi perhaps making promises that didn't eventuate etc, so you keep getting strung along.I'd necessarily blame Altium for sticking with Delphi.

author: MatCat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 12:30:59 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 30, 2014, 11:59:36 pmProblem is computer technology grows far faster then business, businesses invest into technology to take advantage of it but fail to consider what will the tech you are relying on be in 10 years? How will your needs of that technology change in 10 years? When it comes to industrial setting this isn't so much of an issue, it's not a big deal that the robot runs off of a Windows 95 machine, it works fine doing exactly what is was made to do. But when it comes to software used directly by humans that idea really doesn't work. Either you invest the time in keeping your code base working with the times, or you eventually fade out when someone else comes along that did it and it works better on the modern code base.In the case of Altium it all worked out well as long as Windows stayed the primary OS, and it will continue to work until that magic moment when suddenly the majority of dev tools are on something else and so are the users.Personally I don't see why they can't change the codebase to something more portable, go with an Eagle style marketing scheme in the mean time, use that to get funding in, invest a few million into hiring a good dev team that know good modern portable programming, utilize all of the existing IP algorithms that took the time to R&D and it shouldn't take too long, maybe a year or 2 to come up with something completely new and fresh, but still using reliable concepts that work well.Seems to me their biggest issue is management.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 12:44:27 am
content: Quote from: MatCat on January 31, 2014, 12:30:59 amThey have new management!But perhaps unfortunately the new CEO actually wrote his own Ajax based development system, Morfik.And they were stupid enough to use that for their forum etc which sucks arse.So they don't exactly have a good track record there...There was a rumour that they were porting it all to C++, but I heard that was a myth. Some parts are in C++ (or other things). They use what works best for what job apparently. But the core is still Delphi.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 01:11:50 am
content: Quote from: MatCat on January 31, 2014, 12:30:59 amWith 91% of desktops and laptops still running Windows when do you think that magic moment will be?Try searching for PCB or general CAD packages for linux or OSX and see that Altium is far from alone.

author: MatCat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 03:40:23 am
content: Quote from: Rufus on January 31, 2014, 01:11:50 amYeah that statistic holds true for it's metric, but how many laptops and desktops sold this year compared to the last, and the last? Also mix in how many other devices which we don't necessarily consider computers in the desktop/laptop sense are now in use that have replaced previous laptop/desktop uses (Tablets, smart phones, etc), the stark reality is the concept of the desktop is leaving fast! Don't get me wrong, there will always be certain people that need a desktop concept, I.E. yes like someone posted above, the concept of a workstation will come back full swing as the common computing device turns into something other then the desktop computer as we know it now, the software and tools will follow, it does take a bit of time though, but the majority of major perquisites to change from an MS dominated computer landscape to linux is already been put in place, Android was just the landslide trigger, it made all programmers shift to a linux central development platform, companies like Valve are pumping millions to get the graphics working right simply because that is one of the the major driving forces for consumer computing technology, you also have companies like NVIDIA dedicating resource to development on the linux kernel, AMD is now starting to produce ARM chips for server and workstation systems.Why I give it 5 years or so, that is what it is going to take for the bigger players to get their code base ported over.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 03:54:58 am
content: Quote from: MatCat on January 31, 2014, 03:40:23 amNot for serious CAD work or video creation for example it's not.Let's assume that 90% or so PC/Windows figure is correct (I have no reason to doubt it), then Altium still have no real business reason to start porting the code yet.Let's say it's drops to 80% this year, and 70% the next. Ok, only then would they start to think it would be worthwhile to port it.But what is it switching to?Mac? Clearly not.The only thing left is Linux. Do you really think Linux is going to take over the mainstream power desktop field? Not likely.There is reason why Windows has lasted so long, and is still the platform of choice for engineering programs.What I'm getting at is that a Linux version of Altium would not really gain them any significant extra customers who otherwise won't use it because it's Windows only. So the business case has just never been there, and that still remains the case.

author: graynomad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 04:00:14 am
content: QuoteI haven't used a desktop for maybe 15 years, funnily enough though I may be about to go back to one, 90% because I want 3 screens for my PCB (and other) CAD work and AFAIK there's no good way to do that with a laptop.I suppose I could just make the new machine a "workstation" and install whatever OS makes sense for that, but I haven't got the endurance to learn another OS and/or software packages. Not that I've really "learned" much about Windows over the 25-30 years or so I've been using it, the OS is just some crap that runs in the background as far as I'm concerned, it's the applications that I use and sure as eggs my favourite calculator (or whatever) won't be ported to a non-windows platform.Apart from the fact I aplaud Linux/Andriod et al for being open, I have no real cause to swap to them and can't see that I ever would.

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 05:13:06 am
content: Quote from: graynomad on January 31, 2014, 04:00:14 amlittle bit off topic, but I currently do this with my laptop (macbook pro). You just plug them in?

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 05:39:33 am
content: Quote from: MatCat on January 31, 2014, 03:40:23 amThe concept of a desktop isn't leaving any time soon. Lots of people bought desktop computers because they wanted to access the internet, email, and maybe some office type application and games. They bought desktops and later laptops because that is all there was. Now we have tablets which do most of what those lots of people bought desktops for, they are also cheap and portable so obviously there will be far fewer desktops/laptops around.That doesn't change the concept or need for desktops/laptops and won't much affect the choice of operating system to run on them. So yes 90% of computing 'devices' may soon not be lap/desk tops but I wouldn't be surprised to see 91% of the ones that are still running Windows. The biggest threat to Windows on desktops/laptops is Microsoft continuing to screw it up.

author: graynomad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 06:00:00 am
content: QuoteYes but you've had to use a MacAre the screen resolutions the same on all three? I currently use 2 but it seems impossible to get matching screens because my laptop has a very fine dot pitch and stand-alone displays do not.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 06:29:00 am
content: As long as there is a need for powerful computers, there will be desktop computers.I remember 20-25 years ago, companies like Novell were prophesying the end of the desktop computer, and applications would be run on servers with the user just having a monitor.Funny, because that existed 20 years earlier and dumb terminals went the way of the dodo. I remember 23 years ago working in a computer company and the first Toshiba laptop with an active matrix screen came in - and it was said that soon, everyone would just use laptops and there would be no more desktops.Bottom line is that the death of the desktop has been predicted for at least 25-30 years, and it hasn't happened and shows no signs of happening. Who is going to be doing PCB design on a tablet or smartphone? There will always be aspects of a powerful machine that are incompatible with a small machine. Such as screen size, storage, power consumption. For as long as this universe obeys Newtonian physics, more speed will mean more power which will mean more electricity, more heat sinking, more physical size, more expense, etc. Some people will pay a premium for that power (gamers, video editors, CAD users, software developers). And those machines are where real development will happen.Could Linux take over as the OS? I guess so... but that's been supposedly coming for decades as well and also hasn't happened. Windows is dirt cheap, supported by a major company that you can call for tech support, and has the largest user base and largest software list out there. What is the incentive to change? Security? Windows is really good these days. Cost? A total non-issue. Sticking it to evil Bill Gates? Corporations don't care - they just want to make $$.

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 06:40:22 am
content: Quote from: graynomad on January 31, 2014, 06:00:00 amI run osx, Linux and windows, macs are just a piece of hardwareVM speed is indistinguishable from native speed on my latest one. The laptop has a much higher DPI but has a smaller effective resolution than the external monitors. All different resolutions, but the OS seems to know how to join them up.I would agree that the only major reason everything is built for windows is that everything *else* is built for windows. That reason is very slowly disappearing (Xilinx now on Linux, valve steambox, every embedded device under the sun runs Linux, etc) and developers will eventually need to switch to more portable practices or be left behind. It happened with osx and video/photo/3d tools moving to windows, and it will surely happen again and again with something else.At this stage it probably doesn't make sense for Altium to do a full rewrite and port. But few ever see the market shift coming...

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 07:02:42 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 31, 2014, 12:44:27 amMorfik isn't the reason their forum sucks arse.It sucks because rather than having subforums for each obvious functional area (PCB/schematic, FPGA, nanoboard, microcontroller firmware), it's all lumped into one big forum. Requests on the forum to divide it up were met with flaming derision.And there's no way to know what threads have been updated, or basically do anything you could have done in a CompuServe forum in 1988.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 07:19:13 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on January 31, 2014, 06:29:00 amditto! Linux for years is simply just a "waste". now dont get me wrong, linux is quite good actually (both from technical and UI POV) and i always hope that one day i can get fulltime on it. what i'm guessing is that all those supporters are fishing the wrong pond all this while. what they need is support from HW vendors and pro SW developers (Pro means money) and to improve business model for it. i dont involve in linux update, but looking at this fact put some credibility to the claim. linux is complete, what is not is its marketing, my 2cnts.Quote from: bxs on January 30, 2014, 10:28:19 pmyep C++ is golden, its not necessarily delphi, sorry i didnt mention it earlier, just another quick OT on this... Qt looks good, but.. for "Qt 5.2.0 for Windows 32-bit" install, whats the difference between for MinGW, VS2010, VS2012? this is very confusing i cant find explanation for it.http://qt-project.org/downloadsand what do you think about wxWidgets?http://www.wxwidgets.org/compared to Qt?

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 08:04:12 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on January 31, 2014, 07:44:15 amCompiler type for precompiled libs I presume. VS2010 and VS2012 are Visual Studio and MinGW is the GNU toolchain that runs on windows.

author: bxs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 02:33:37 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on January 31, 2014, 07:44:15 amAll this VS2010, VS2012, MinGW is just because of incompatibilities between libs compiled with different tool chains or just between different versions of a toolchain, this way you can choose with what toolchain you will use Qt ;-)MinGW is just a port of GCC to windows, you can have 2 releases of Qt installed, for example one for VS other for MinGW, also the Qt MinGW installer also installs MinGW ;-)About wxwidgets compared to Qt, you really can't compare them, they are very different things, wxwidgets only have widgets so it is only useful for GUI, Qt have the widgets and all the rest, it have classes for almost everything you need to do, take a look at:http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-5/qtmodules.htmlhttp://qt-project.org/doc/qt-5/classes.htmlThat said, if you only need cross-platform widgets wxwidgets are a really nice option.

author: Scutarius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 04:21:46 pm
content: Quotewhy not? OK fair enough, OS X is for non-technical people if you want but it is a UNIX system, so If you make it for Linux GNU I am more than happy with it.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 04:22:40 pm
content: Quote from: jeremy on January 31, 2014, 08:04:12 amQuote from: bxs on January 31, 2014, 02:33:37 pmah i get it, the toolchain, i'm so used to the install that already has a fixed toolchain in it. thanks to both of you!Quote from: bxs on January 31, 2014, 02:33:37 pmhell no, more is betterthe choice is crystal clear now thank you!

author: MatCat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 08:11:36 pm
content: I can see why some would think the desktop will continue on intrepidly like it has been, but if you think the Windows Desktop is going to still be the standard device in 5 years you are crazy.The main reason I see the change from Windows to Android/Linux (remember Android is linux) on the workstation/desktop machine is because there is an obvious push to change the architecture to ARM right now, not just at the hardware level but at the software level too. As the mainstream user base changes the primary computer they use, so will the software vendors to make their products work on it. Sure currently 90% of all laptops and desktops are running Windows, but at the same time as of 2013 only 65% of all internet access is from a Windows OS, take into account that there was a total loss of internet connected devices using MS by 34% from 2012 to 2013 (2012 saw nearly all internet access from MS), that is a huge market share sliding right off the plate if I ever saw one, and there is no sign it's going to stop. Windows 8 was a complete flop, and shows how MS just can't keep up with the changes.Anyone look at the new AMD ARM cihp? Sure it's made for servers, but it's a sign of a paradigm shift in architecture. 5 years is a long time for computers, a lot can happen by then.Of course none of it matters to the OPLet's just hope Altium does it right.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 09:13:55 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on January 31, 2014, 07:02:42 amThe point is they chose their own stupid development system to roll their own forum instead of using a proven, debugged, and feature rich industry standard off-the-shelf forum software.That means it's a lot of work to add anything significant instead of it being trivial.That also means they have had to deal with a ton of bugs. Were you on there at the start? it was awful.That also means it also takes valuable programming resources away from the CAD product in order to dick around with their forum.It was a stupid choice on so many levels, and shows how stupid and stubborn Altium are.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 09:14:54 pm
content: Quote from: MatCat on January 31, 2014, 08:11:36 pmNot for serious CAD work, which is what we are talking about here.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 09:15:38 pm
content: Quote from: MatCat on January 31, 2014, 08:11:36 pmI agree - also, all the real engineering/scientific tools have always been developed under Unix in academic environments. Spice, Finite Element Analysis, LaTex, SPSS, indeed the whole internet as we knew it, HTTP, IRC, FTP, SMTP, etc.The motor manufacturers don't use Windoze and Altium. They have custom tools on high end Unix workstations. Proprietary and not for sale. They were doing solid modelling decades before Solidworks came out.REAL engineers, like NASA, etc, use Unix. Pissy engineers use what overblown commercial vendors take from Unix and port to Windows with bells and whistles.I look forward to what the CERN guys can do with KiCad on their free time.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 09:42:07 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on January 31, 2014, 09:15:38 pmehh... that time is gone...Tesla is using altium exclusively for all their electronics.and as for NASA. Spirit and Opportunity were also completely designed with Altium...Other carmakers : BMW , Volkswagen are all using Altium for various parts.The availability of tools Like Dassault systems Catia has sent the 'custom tools' to the garbage bin.Unix workstations have also gone the way of the wind. Apollo, Sun ... all gone... Standard Pc hardware, Windows, VNC client into a farm.

author: MatCat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 11:20:39 pm
content: We are already at the point where phones and tablets are equaling or rivaling our desktops, I wouldn't be surprised if in 5 years those of us who need a serious 'workstation' computer to do our work will just plug our phone/tablet into a docking station and or wireless connect to the keyboard / mouse / displays needed for work, there is no reason to have 2 machines when 1 can do the work of both.What I see is programs like Altium going to way of WordPerfect in the transition from DOS to Windows, it lost it's market because it's software was no longer the best option for the current OS. Personally I love Altium and hope it stays a strong viable package on whatever the current mainstream OS is, I even forgo primarily being in linux to use Windows just for Altium, something I don't do lightly, and in fact it's a bit of a contrast to a lot of the programming tools I use which mostly work in linux better then Windows, but it's easy enough with MinGW to do what I need. I just don't see Windows being what most people are using in 5 years, not even serious engineers, I think by then the most important tools will be there and a user experience that is required to make it so will be there. Had the *nix scene progressed to be the dominate OS instead of MS all the tools we use right now would be in a *nix environment, that's not how it went though, and all signs point to MS not being it in 5 years from now. Who will be using it? Like I said before those who need it for mission critical stuff with proprietary software that can't be easily replaced. That's not to say there won't be people using MS Windows for their favorite CAD software from 5 years ago, but I don't think that will be the norm, just as it's not the norm today (Though there are still people using CAD software from 5 years ago, would be interesting to know how many).

author: Pat Pending
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 11:54:31 pm
content: Quote from: MatCat on January 31, 2014, 11:20:39 pmI was thinking exactly the same thing, heck, in time you won't even need to take the phone out of your pocket to achieve those high bandwidth display connections.Where is the DOS emulator for the smartphone? Sure would be fun (academic fun) to run Tango Schematic or PCB on it.Then again I'm loathed to carry a multitude of devices with me. I'd rather open an editing session on the display glass (Corning glass of course) walls of the conference boardroom.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 11:56:48 pm
content: Quote from: MatCat on January 31, 2014, 11:20:39 pmWe are?No phone or tablet on the market can match my main machines in CPU or GPU power. These machines I built five years ago, and are utterly surpassed by current hardware. You may want to check again.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2014, 11:57:10 pm
content: Quote from: Pat Pending on January 31, 2014, 11:54:31 pmaaaaaaaaagh. where is my set of large needles. i'm gonna gouge my eyes out....

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 12:37:33 am
content: Quote from: MatCat on January 31, 2014, 11:20:39 pmi believe you dont quite get what dave said earlier. let me do it again... clothing.. your shirts, jeans trousers everything and everybody far more surpassing phones and tablets. no? i mean you are talking orange and apple two different machine with different purpose. tablets can only rival PC if... it has 23" wide screen (the bigger the better), fullsize keyboard for full 10 fingers typing, a printer that can fit A4 in for documentation etc etc, in the end guess what? a desktop. you are not going to bring 23" tablet around. but undoubtedly, tablet is really good, good at what? at filling boring time and play crush candy. now dont take it as an offense. OS war should not be taken seriously, only "unreal" engineer that will take it seriouslyQuote from: MatCat on January 31, 2014, 11:20:39 pmnot a good example. you are talking about a transition from a PC to a PC. you are talking about OS obsolesence, not a HW concept obsolesence.Quote from: MatCat on January 31, 2014, 11:20:39 pmi installed Qt with MinGW this night and tried to compile something, guess what i need to copy many Qt*.dll files into my system folder, but before i completed all the dll copy, they already reaching hundreds of MB, something that i never see happening in Windows my entire life, so it was a no go last night i deleted them all. i'll look into it next time as this is my first timer not so good experience.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 01:18:21 am
content: Quote from: MatCat on January 31, 2014, 11:20:39 pmI do for the same reason I see keyboards with QWERTY layout being what most people are using in 5 years time.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 01:44:11 am
content: Quote from: MatCat on January 31, 2014, 11:20:39 pmI've said this before, but I'll say it again.Not that many years ago Computing platforms were expensive, namely because they were the domain of large business, scientific and engineering markets. As the uses for computers started to expand into the everyday lives of the general population, so to were the efforts of OS developers to accommodate this new and expanding market.Smart phones, tablets and the accompanying UI's and OS's are now taking this large market away from "proper" computing platforms used in the aforementioned fields.The current offerings for these new UI's are sorely lacking. Production software is usually complex and requires access to a great deal of functionality which at the moment isn't being catered for in these new UI's.Efforts to provide a means to make these new OS's user friendly for serious production software will not happen with the speed and low cost we have seen them develop for the much more profitable "content consuming" market. As a result we will see prices escalate, not for the hardware, but for solutions provided by companies that choose to support what will become a niche market, aka, us.

author: MatCat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 01:54:25 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on February 01, 2014, 12:37:33 amNo I don't think anyone who actually has to work on anything is going to sit there and do it on a tablet, but I can see the concept of walking into the office (whatever that may be for you), and your screen, keyboard, and mouse are there just like before, but it's not connected to a computer directly, instead it's all wireless (or a dock), and going on with what you have to do. Shirts and pants have nothing to do with it, think about it, Microsoft powered devices on the internet from 2012 to 2013 dropped 34% while Android rose about the same, so unless people are getting on the internet with their pants and shirts I don't see what you are saying there.Quote from: Mechatrommer on February 01, 2014, 12:37:33 amIts' really one and the same, it doesn't matter if the new OS is on the same hardware concept, or a new one, the primary OS in use is what it is, reguardless of platform hardware, it just so happens that in the computer world up until now the primary platform was IBM-PC, and a small slice of Apple, now it's a big slice of ARM and growing.Quote from: Mechatrommer on February 01, 2014, 12:37:33 amQT is a horrible example, and a horrible bloated library.

author: MatCat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 01:57:19 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on February 01, 2014, 01:44:11 amI am not going to argue with you on that, one of the reasons why software packages like AD cost many thousands as it is. But the UI landscape is changing and changing fast.

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 02:10:50 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on February 01, 2014, 12:37:33 amYou just need to add the appropriate directories to your PATH environment variable. There's no need to copy any DLLs into the system folder. So far as I remember there's one directory for the QT DLLs and one for the MinGW DLLs.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 02:59:47 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on January 31, 2014, 09:15:38 pmNASA officially use Altium as their PCB CAD tool at the Johnson Space Centre, they are one Altiums biggest customers.http://www.abc.net.au/news/2007-10-29/aust-company-lands-nasa-software-deal/709666

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 03:05:39 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on January 31, 2014, 11:56:48 pmHeck, I'd claim it may even be closer to 10 year old hardware still beats any phone or tablet.They are just designed for entirely different things. Tablets and phones are designed to optimise battery life provideadequateperformance for the user consumers tasks - web surfing, watching a video, playing a non-CPU taxing game etc.Once you want to do anything "serious" with it (CAD, video editing, hard core games), a phone or tablet, no matter how powerful, simply does not cut, and likely never will, because they will always be optimised for mobile general purpose use.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 03:55:55 am
content: QuoteAlways have that in mind, yes, but even my ancient Dell Latitude speeds up or slows down depending on whether it is battery or mains power. Consider that phones and tablets have progressed from the Nokia bananaphone capability, somewhat less than a PC XT, to the current state of quad-core play a lot quicker than the PC covered the same ground. I don't see them freezing now but continuing to progress.I think matcat's view is most likely to happen: whatever is is we're carrying around with us will do basic stuff on battery for when we're on the train or something, and then go into full 'serious work' mode when it's docked with a suitable screen attached. The GUI could even be different: slidey-touchy-pokey interface for out and about mode, decent multi-windowed point'n'click when you have the capable display and inputs. We see that already with $50 USB sticks that are actually Android devices that will do HD AV when plugged into your TV.Does anyone want that kind of thing? I reckon the huge number of laptops, many of which were essentially desktops in a clamshell case, says someone does. And laptop sales are nosediving as tablets are taking off. Not hard to put 2 + 2 together on that one! The stumbling block at the moment is that developers only write $2 fart apps for phones, and scaling up a phone GUI to a 40" HD TV is kind of pointless.Tablets also don't need to be perfect workstations. Phones have basically taken over from compact cameras not because they are better, but because they are there when needed and 'good enough'. That 'good enough' in the hand beats 'best ever' left at home any day. Don't write off another format because it's not obviously better than the current best - if you're on the train and want to review your Altium schematic on your way to see a client, I bet a tablet with HD screen would be more than good enough for you.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 08:47:36 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 01, 2014, 03:55:55 amSure, but that's not the point.The point is about what is really needed to comfortably and efficiently use the tool all day every day. Phones and tablets simply do not cut it, and likely never will. Unless they start coming out with super-duper powered tablets. But then you don't have a tablet any more, you have essentially a desktop, because it needs a lot more power so it becomes pointless to try and make it a tablet form factor or battery powered etc.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 08:49:58 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 01, 2014, 03:55:55 amMy point is that a tablet or phone optimised for portable battery powered use simply won't have the power to do that.At least not nearly as efficiently as a higher powered desktop would.And when you have to design all day every day at your desk, you aren't going to put up with crap performance from a phone or tablet.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 08:56:15 am
content: It is precisely why Apple have released their new beast of a desktop. It's for those high end apps (like video editing) where no phone or tablet will ever cut it. These niches will never go away.So yes, while the desktop is dying in the consumer world, it is still essential for high end use. That won't change.I have used notebooks exclusively for almost a decade or more until I decided I really needed a better video editing machine. The result is I had no real choice but to go back to a desktop. The machine stays in my room all day and it crunches videos quicker than any notebook. I use the right tool for the job. I have notebooks and tablets and phones for other uses, because they are the right tool for the job.Anyone who doesn't understand this obviously has never done high end CAD or video work all day every day.

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 09:41:51 am
content: Whilst I agreee........things are changing though...........http://phandroid.com/2013/07/24/nvidia-announces-mobile-kepler-graphics-said-to-exceed-ps3s-power-comes-to-mobile-in-project-logan-video/Ian.

author: MatCat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 09:45:56 am
content: I don't think those of us with real power use are going to use our phones or tablets either, but the majority will, and what I do foresee is not so much the shift of hardware from desktop to phone/tablet but more a shift of those types of computers using the same OS as our phone / tablets, with seamless integration and or docking system that has a GPU or whatever that needs the energy that mobility can't cope with. Though to say the processing power of a modern ARM system is still not on par with 10 year old desktop I think you are sorely mistaken on that, we are talking quad, and 8 core chips running ~2GHz on a PHONE, yeah sure it doesn't have a GPU that can drive a modern flagship game or high end 3d CAD, but the CPU itself is more then capable of what the CPU on your desktop is doing, just needs the memory / graphics. Can you honestly say that something along the lines of an ARM system using 64 cores with something along the lines of say 64GB of GDDR4/GDDR5 is not going to be able to compete? (It's not that far away). Heck the Tegra 4 already matches the majority of mid range consumer desktops, even in GPU.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 01:48:31 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on February 01, 2014, 08:39:17 amAre you being serious?What happens if your super-workstation gets 440V up it's PSU? If the only copy of your data is on your tablet/PC/NAS you are going to be crying at some point.You would, of course, have off-device backup of some form, probably a subversion or similar repo. Blimey, even a simple dropbox folder would do the biz, wouldn't it?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 02:17:14 pm
content: Quote from: IanJ on February 01, 2014, 09:41:51 amSure, but the PS3's GPU is from 2005.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 02:26:48 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 01, 2014, 01:48:31 pmchange the PSU! and a serious workstation needs voltage regulator and UPS upfront, not barely connected to the unreliable public mains line. not to mention the private "custom made" backup storage system. how likely it is of the HV surge in mains line compared to say, the stolen or lost tablets? anyway your choice of surrenderring your serious work into the cloud environment is your choice, i dont have the right to ask you to not to.

author: graynomad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 02:32:14 pm
content: QuoteJust live off grid, problem solved

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 02:43:20 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 01, 2014, 03:55:55 amWhy would you want to carry round an expensive item which could be lost/dropped/stolen when a cheap item will do the mobile basics? We have wireless chargers because people can't be arsed to plug in a power supply never mind anything else. I really don't see the attraction.Microsoft are trying to sell that crap with surfaces, why have a PC and a tablet when you can have just an expensive tablet - we even screwed up the OS for you so it tries to work as a PC and a tablet and does neither well... People shrugged and carried on buying iPads and androids.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 02:52:42 pm
content: Quote from: poorchava on January 30, 2014, 08:22:09 amI like that I can often download a 3D step from the supplier, when I'm making footprints. Just Thursday, I found that I had the footprint off for one pad on a micro SD card slot. The dimensions on the print were drawn in a weird way and I read it wrong while drawing the pads. The 3D model lined up with all pads, but looked slightly off for one. I found the error and all is good now. I probably would not have found that until first run, because each double check I was seeing the same value in the drawing.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 03:40:22 pm
content: QuoteEh? Peoplealreadydo that. And have done for yonks. And will continue to do that.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 03:44:35 pm
content: Quote from: graynomad on January 31, 2014, 06:00:00 amMac Book Pro was for a while the only laptop with 16 Gb RAM. I only boot to Windows 7 on it. I run a 30" 2560x1600 and 24" 1920x1200. You can't really go to 3 full monitors with it. I can't fault the construction, but it annoys me to no end that the "Delete" button functions as backspace and you have to hold function to delete. When I'm working with just the laptop and mouse doing layout. I have to take my hand off the mouse so I can delete something.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 03:51:31 pm
content: QuoteI feel that you have zeroed in on a specific irrelevant instance instead of grasping the gist of the message. That particular thing may never happen, and any other disaster I could mention probably won't occur either. But this is not about what specific disasters may occur but about what you do to mitigate them.On a PC you have backups. Why would not have backups for your tablet data? Or laptop? Sure, many people don't because they are either lazy or can't figure out how to do it. There are a similar number who don't have backups for their PC either. None of that detracts from the fact that youcanandshouldhave backups for your data on whatever platform you use.Now, you poo-poo my example suggestion of dropbox, as if that means you can't do anything on a tablet. Life is too short to list every possible scenario for making your data robust, and it would miss out the new ones that turn up between writing the list and you reading it. So I use an example which we can all understand (except, seemingly, you) is just an example. Why shoot that down in flames? It is whackamole if you're going to take that approach.Hell, if I were doing this I wouldn't back up the data on the tablet as such. I would make the tablet data a copy of the real data held somewhere else. That's why I specifically mentioned subversion and dropbox, because you suck the data down when you need it and if it then disappears down the bottom of a canyon (or you just buy a new tablet, laptop, PC, notebook) you just suck exactly the same data down again from the same source.Forget canyons and voltages and those distractions. Try arguing with the message rather than the letters that spell the message.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 04:12:31 pm
content: Some people are not understanding that there is ZERO contest between tablet CPU and GPU power and the desktop (or laptop workstation). Where there is competition between ARM and Intel is in processing power per running power. i.e. MIPS per mAsIn the last 3 weeks, I have used Altium to design PCBs, used SolidWorks, used SketchUp to prototype some room layouts quickly and make PCB 3D bodies for Altium rapidly, used After Effects to make some video sequences, edited together video in Vegas Pro, Rendered video, used Illustrator and Photoshop in above efforts. I did this on a reasonably portable Mac Book Pro Retina, running Windows. None of this is possible on a tablet. When it is possible to play with some of this on a tablet, the latest workstation laptop will completely obliterate the computing power of a tablet.With some of those, I wish I had more power in my GPU. I'm sacrificing that for portability to have a full desktop monitor setup at both work and home, with the same machine. So when tablets are getting to 2005 GPU technology, I'm want more than the GPU of a year old Mac Book Pro Retina.I really don't doubt that you will eventually be able to do many of these things on a tablet, but never as well. Photoshop is on a tablet, sort of. But you can't take 8 shots of the same thing, put into a smart object, auto align, then use mean combination to automatically remove the people that were moving around the architecture shot you wanted. In Photoshop on a desktop, 35 seconds. On a tablet, impossible.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 05:54:04 pm
content: QuoteThe difference between that and a tablet is basically a keyboard.Despite what it looks like, we are not having a tablet vs workstation war (or shouldn't be). It is fixed PC vs mobile platform, and if that mobile platform is a Macbook I don't think anyone is going to argue. The tablet issue comes up because that is where mobile is heading - people prefer tablets to laptops.Suppose Apple hadn't switched to Intel: your Macbook wouldn't be running Windows and you'd be saying that doing any of that stuff you mentioned (the Altium, Sketchup, etc) is a joke on a Macbook and it's nothing like a proper workstation. In fact, all the arguments aimed against tablets in this thread would apply. Yet the ability to run a specific OS on there changed everything, and it's suddenly in the other camp.So why is that shift not possible for tablets? If a tablet ran Windows, why couldn't you do any of that stuff on it?

author: MatCat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 07:16:19 pm
content: Quote from: sacherjj on February 01, 2014, 04:12:31 pmI never said it was here right now, just that it's getting here fast. It isn't going to be long before photoshop works on a tablet just the same as it does on a desktop, heck Photoshop isn't even that intensive unless your maybe doing 3D stuff in it. I have no doubt a tablet is already powerful enough to run Altium, even the 3D, problem here is just code base.I don't think the serious hardcore use of desktop style systems is ever going to go away, only in the mainstream will they go away, and let's face it the majority of us do our engineering on a mainstream OS, and no matter how much we as humans are comfortable in a static state, technology moves forward fast, and the software will always follow the mainstream OS. This entire debate started because I stated that I think Altium will have to change it's code base to stay viable in the near future, simply because in the near future Windows will be a distance memory, and so will any software packages on it (with exception to big companies running prop. software, and random stragglers that prefer to stay behind at the cost of familiarity or requirement).And its not just CPU and GPU architectures that are improving here, it's also battery technology, look at carbon nano-tube LIPO, 10x the amp hour for the same size and weight, think about that, your cell phone currently runs on a 5Ah to 7Ah battery on average, now imagine what that is going to be like with 10x the battery capacity, you don't need a phone that can run for a month solid, so you can sacrifice battery time for extra core / more clock and still get a user experience that is acceptable and still far blowing today out of the water. Remember this is 5 years from now, not today, not tomorrow, not next month.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 08:53:19 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 01, 2014, 05:54:04 pm...and 2 thunderbolt ports, 2 USB 3 ports, HDMI connection (on half the tablets), and substantially more CPU and GPU than any tablet out there.QuoteI'll give you that. However, my Mac Book Pro would be a workstation desktop if I didn't live 2 hours drive from where I work. In fact I have a workstation at work that is a primary Linux box for compiling Android.QuoteThe main reason I have a Mac Book, is because it was the fastest laptop of decent construction I could get at the time. It is faster than a "proper workstation" available a year before it. If Mac has not switched to Intel, I would have a originally Windows based workstation laptop.The difference between my Mac Book Pro and a Tablet is this:Substantially more power.Ability to use 3 monitors. (Two thunderbolt connections and an HDMI.)1 Tb of SSD storage.The Surface Pro is a tablet that DOES run windows and comes closest to your panacea. It is still a joke compared to the performance I get from my Mac Book Pro. Altium on it is a waste of my time. Even if I could get multiple monitors on it.QuoteIt isn't possible with tablets, because the processors on most tablets are so anemic that they can't run the apps needed. This may change with time, but they are more focused on battery life with ENOUGH performance, rather than performance with enough battery life.It isn't possible because tablets come with ZERO external display opportunities or 1. Most only up to a max of 1920x1200.I agree that it will potentially be possible to build a tablet that could replace what I do with my Mac Book Pro, but I don't think it is likely. Why? Because most people only need what tablets can do. They don't need a workstation or portable workstation. The biggest limitation in making a tablet that is powerful enough to displace a workstation or workstation laptop is either efficiency or battery power density.I don't disagree that a portable solution is possible. I working on one. But no one will hold my Mac Book Pro in one hand and consider it anywhere close to a tablet. I don't know why I would get a tablet without a keyboard or a mouse or a 3D mouse or ability to use 2-3 monitors. At that point, I'm at a laptop. I don't disagree that portable computing solutions exist. I just don't see a convergence between the consumer tablet and a tablet that is actually powerful enough to run something like SolidWorks or Altium.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 08:59:57 pm
content: Quote from: MatCat on February 01, 2014, 07:16:19 pmI DO have a doubt that an tablet I have seen is powerful enough to really run Altium. DRC checks on a complex 10 layer board are slow on my fairly fast i7.The faster ARM processors get crushed by the lowly i3 Intel. Crushed. Take a look at ARM vs Intel Chromebooks. Apple's A5 processor has performance closer to a 1995 Pentium-Pro.

author: matkar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 09:15:40 pm
content: Designing tool on tabet? No way. I need big resolution, comfortable posture, keyboard, mouse, spacenavigator and quietness of my office. I take no compromise when it comes to serious work. Tablets might become powerfull enough soon but the usability of such a device will remain limited.We are way to serious and somehow off topic.To cheer the debate, here is my vision on how the new tool should look:

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 09:25:50 pm
content: QuoteNone of which stop you using Photoshop or PowerDirector or whatever. My partners Thinkpad has less but she uses that for her desktop work when she is away. Indeed, you say:QuoteSo it is not an ideal solution but when you trade off the pros and cons it works for you. Yet you deny anyone else the same consideration and boldy state that if it isn't equivalent to a top of the range workstation it is a non-goer.Did you know some people browse websites on aphonescreen? Can you imagine! I wouldn't (really, I have tried and won't consider it a possibility) but people do. Are you going to tell them they mustn't do that because they phones aren't the best possible solution for browsing?QuoteYes!!!That is all anyone has promoted: not that it works now but that in the future it probably will.QuoteYes,nowthey are, but just wait until some enterprising manufacturer breaks ranks, thinks a little, and delivers what users are looking forthen. That's how we got tablets and things like the iPhone in the first place. And laptops.We already see manufacturers playing with dockability to provide a desktop experience from the same phone you shove in your pocket. There is not too much call for it at the moment, possibly because it's not a completely working solution right now, and there's a chicken/egg smell about it. And it ain't cheap. But it is the first thrust and it just needs the users on one hand and software vendors on the other to mentally click and everyone will be shooting off down that route. Be interesting to revisit this topic when that happensBut... an unthreaded web forums is not really conducive to meaningful discussions, and if no-one is convinced, or even slightly swayed, by this point it's not going to happen. So, for me at least, I think we should agree to differ. It's certainly something I will watch with interest (if it happens!), but other than that I am out of here.

author: MatCat
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 09:59:07 pm
content: Quote from: sacherjj on February 01, 2014, 08:59:57 pmIt's not the A5 that is going to do it, it's things like the Tegra line, the new AMD ARM line (64 BIT, DDR3/4, and no this probably wont be in a tablet, but will be in servers and maybe 'workstations'), and what ever else comes out. Remember the shift is not going to be so much to WORK on a TABLET, but that the machine you work on will be the same CPU architecture, the code base will be the same, heck even the CPU might be the same, the key difference here isn't what hardware platform you are on, but what OS platform. In 5 years will you do CAD on your tablet? Hell no, you can't be productive like that, but you will be able to do a quick fix to your project on that tablet while in commute for example, and when you get to work the internet sync solution of your choice would of already synced the project to your work system which is running the same OS as your tablet, but of course has good GPU, doesn't care about battery, and has all the monitors in 8k or whatever useless resolution you can't see the difference in anyway. And yes, I think the majority of people will just dock their phone up when they need a standard desktop type experience, but I don't see that being that common really, because your nice 8k flat screen device will make a great display, and power enough to do star trek style voice recognition there isn't much point, and when you do need to type most people today are just as competent at pecking away on a phone as they are on a keyboard (if not more so).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 10:12:43 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 01, 2014, 05:54:04 pmNo, it's not.The battery in high powered notebook alone can weight more than a tablet.They are designed for different things.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 10:14:47 pm
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 01, 2014, 09:25:50 pmYes, I do, and what a wonderfully shit experience it is!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 10:19:51 pm
content: Quote from: sacherjj on February 01, 2014, 08:53:19 pmAnd this is the entire argument. Tablets will always be designed with "just enough" performance, storage, I/O etc for their intended mobile application. So desktops will always beat them, because they have room for much faster processors and GPU's which can dissipate 5-10 times the heat, big SSD drives, multiple monitor support etc.Yes, tablets have multiple core 2GHz ARM cores or whatever, but that is still pathetic compared to the processor power on even a pedestrian i7 notebook, let alone a high end desktop.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 10:23:56 pm
content: Quote from: MatCat on February 01, 2014, 07:16:19 pmAnd the apps and requirements get more intensive with time too, and desktop power increases at the same rate too. Thinking you will be able to run high end intensive apps on a tablet in 5 years time is as silly as saying you can run todays high end intensive apps on a tablet. The whole market scales, tablets don't magically get better on their own.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 10:28:56 pm
content: Quote from: MatCat on February 01, 2014, 07:16:19 pmand are you sure Mr Bill Gates and the gang will let that happen? if somehow anything really bad is going to happen, company as big as Microsoft or Altium can flip their codes in a matter of months, i'm sure no worry there. unless the manager shot their own foot.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 10:39:49 pm
content: Quote from: MatCat on February 01, 2014, 07:16:19 pmThat may well be the case but it's a big call. The same could of been said about apple a few years ago, they were well and truly on the way out.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2014, 11:21:28 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on February 01, 2014, 10:52:12 pmI cut the quote there because it a) uniquely identified the exact part that I was commenting on, and b) the rest makes no difference. Specifically, "Peoplealreadydo that (carry round an expensive item which could be lost/dropped/stolen when a cheap item will do the mobile basics)".OK, that last, the 'mobile basics' shouldn't be there because it is irrelevant. Think SLR cameras, watches, whatever you like. Thepointis that people carry around expensive stuff that is easily lost/stolen/dropped/run over by the car/whatever. A computing platform is no different, as Apple should happy to acknowledge.BTW, if there is more stuff cut which might be relevant, I generally put ellipsis in (front, back or middle) to indicate that. Just in case my posts wind you up in future

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2014, 06:14:00 am
content: Quote from: MatCat on February 01, 2014, 07:16:19 pmThat's never going to happen.You are thinking about the hardware of tomorrow with the software of today. But the hardware of tomorrow won't be running the software of today, it will be running the software of tomorrow.My smart phone is infinitely more powerful than my old 8086 computer that I ran DOS on with a monochrome monitor. But my smart phone is running Android and a high-res screen. That is not a coincidence... the software makers will always use up whatever performance the hardware guys deliver. That's why some of my installed programs like Solidworks take up a few gigabytes of storage whereas 25-30 years ago, I could boot off a floppy disk and have whole programs that were self-contained on a single 1.2MB floppy.The bottom line is this... the laws of physics will never change. That means that more processing power will always equal more energy consumption and more heat. That will always mean a size-constrained device like any laptop or tablet will always be significantly underpowered compared to the same year desktop machines. That is axiomatic. And it is also an axiom that software developers will always use the processing power available to deliver more features to the consumer. Which means there will always be a better a better user experience for hard-core work when that work is done on a desktop vs. anything less.To think otherwise is to think the laws of physics will cease to apply, or that software manufacturers will reach a point where they have done everything and there is no longer a need to add any features. But to think that would be like the famous quote from the US Patent office guy who claimed everything has already been invented. Or, in other words, it just doesn't work like that.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2014, 06:19:31 am
content: Quote from: matkar on February 01, 2014, 09:15:40 pmAnd this is the other reason that tablets and smartphones will never be used for development.Some are suggesting a developer would bring their tablet along and plug it into some sort of dock (or the communications would happen wirelessly) and they would use their large monitor(s), keyboard, power, etc. Well, if you are already spending for the monthly rent on an office space, as well as a big monitor, keyboard, mouse, desk, insurance, payroll, health care, taxes, etc... the one-time cost of a powerful processing unit is utterly irrelevant. Even today, an almost top of the line processing box is well under $1,000.So what is the benefit to the employee bringing their processing device from home and using it at work? There is none. Data access? With cloud computing and storage, access to the data is a non-issue. Cost is a complete non-issue as well. There is no benefit for the employer in having engineering done on tablet or smartphones of the future stored in people's jacket as they work. It will never happen, not in 5 or 50 years.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2014, 06:29:48 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on February 01, 2014, 10:28:56 pmWhile Bill Gates hasn't been involved with Microsoft in what, a decade?, I would imagine that MS has builds of Windows running on ARM hardware in a lab somewhere. Migrating the OS isn't the problem. Getting developers to migrate the APPLICATIONS is the problem.Which, if you remember, Apple solved, not once, but twice -- first going from 68k to PPC, and then from PPC to Intel.I have to believe that Microsoft is working to make a Rosetta-type translation layer real.-a

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2014, 06:34:23 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on January 31, 2014, 09:13:55 pmI was, and it was awful. I was one of the many who complained about the one-forum-to-rule-them-all and we were all told to pound sand.I had a tech-support question recently, and logged in for the first time in ages, and it still sucks.

author: graynomad
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2014, 06:43:07 am
content: @matkarYou missed out a "Run all" button, you think I want to click 5 times?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 02, 2014, 08:36:38 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on February 02, 2014, 06:29:48 amAnd which simply isn't going to happen with high end apps like pro video editing and serious CAD. These companies know what hardware profiles their users use, and they are always on the bleeding edge. Tablet and phone support would get laughed at at such companies.

author: TerminalJack505
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2014, 10:05:20 pm
content: If wireless communications ever get to the point where a certain minimum QoS can be achieved then mobile devices can become simple thin clients. All of the processing can be done on a high-powered server at home or the office (or somewhere out in the 'cloud.')One server could likely serve all of a family's mobile devices. There would be no storage and very little processing capability on a mobile device at that point--it would just be a glorified frame buffer device with some I/O. This would basically make a person's 'real' computer and 'real' OS portable.This particular industry loves to merge technologies and this wireless technology would be one of the key factors in merging traditional desktop technology with mobile technology.Another big hurdle to overcome would be having some form of I/O (to replace keyboard and mouse) that is common to both the desktop and mobile devices. This would be necessary so that the user experience is the same (with the one big exception of the screen size) whether they are mobile or at their desk. So far as I know this has yet to be invented. Touchscreens may be part of the solution but they don't completely replace a mouse and they are a poor substitute for a keyboard. Some form of hand gesture technology, perhaps?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 02, 2014, 10:14:08 pm
content: Tablets and even laptops are not usable to run high end software such as Altium , Rhino, Solidworks , Catia and others.They lack both the CPU , GPU horsepower and memory requirements. Let alone being able to drive 2,3 or 4 monitors.There are some relly beefy laptops out there (i wouldn't call them laptops. A 17 inch monster that weights 6 pounds without its power brick is not exactly a laptop ) That can do it , but you won't be moving very much…I have a HP 'laptop' with a Quad core + hyperthreading (windows sees 8 cores) , 8 gig ram , an nVidia graphics card with its own 2 gig ram, boots from a 256 Gb SSD and has two 1Tb classic drives in it. Features a 1920x1080 3D display with active glasses. It has two displayport connectors each capable of driving 2 monitors at 2560 . It runs all that cad software perfectly fine but you have to plug all the external stuff in every time .It is great to do some work off-site but whereever you arrive you are looking for monitors … you just can't work serious cad on a single 17 inch screen. no matter how many pixels. and you need to drag along an external mouse, 3d spacenavigator anyway.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2014, 10:12:39 am
content: Or you can get a docking station. Very convenient. But then the laptop stops being portable (for CAD work anyway) and you end up with 3x overpriced PC

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2014, 11:44:15 am
content: Quote from: poorchava on February 03, 2014, 10:12:39 amDocking stations don't magically make your optimised for mobile battery performance laptop any more powerful.Desktops will always be more powerful than laptops, it's basic engineering. And high end pro users will always demand the best performance.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2014, 04:44:24 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on February 03, 2014, 11:44:15 amactually, some laptops beat the pants off many current gen desktops. however, at 12+lbs (not including the power brick), I'm not sure you can call it a laptop.Eurocom's Panther 5's will let you stick an i7 4960X or an E5-2697 [the "desktop processors"] into them paired with a K5100M or a beefy consumer SLI.your only limitation is screen space, networking, storage and memory (32GB, retarded for pairing with 12 cores/24 virtual)obviously, at full tilt, something which consumes 300-400W isn't going to have much battery life.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2014, 04:58:31 pm
content: Quote from: Fsck on February 03, 2014, 04:44:24 pmI think that whenever you have to deal with packaging issues, there will always be compromises that lead to reduced performance.How does the motherboard in that laptop rate against similar desktop full-size motherboards? I bet it's not the highest performer. And you can't get the latest tech in it either - for example a Quadro 6000 or dual Xeon processors. And if you go with the Quadro 5000 series and single Xeon, you are looking at over $10,000 for that laptop, which will get blown away by a desktop with dual Xeon's and a Quadro 6000 which can then even be reliably overlocked and water cooled, and which would cost thousands less.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2014, 05:32:16 pm
content: QuoteWhat is this fixation with 'the latest tech' and hyper-workstations and 'serious pro 24/7 draughtsmen'? AFAICS, it's just to put the kibbosh on the idea that the host OS for Altium could move in theory if not in practice.Remember: this thread started with a rant to say that Altium should flog a cut-down low-to-zero cost version for hobbiests. What hobbiest is going to be considering the sort of desktop y'all are saying will barely crawl with this stuff? [Yes, I know some will have Big Toys but many will not - otherwise why will they need a cut-price version?]. How many Altium users here really use it all day, every day? More likely it is used when part of a project needs it, but the rest of the time other tools are used to do other things.Whether y'all like it or not, Altiumisusable on less-than-bleeding-edge machines with screens that aren't wall-to-wall. Gosh, you can even use it with one screen. I have seen it used in a VM which was just awindowon a screen. That is not to deny that bigger is better (and it I were using it 24/7 I'd want the best kit available); it is saying there is a range of needs and usability. It is certainly fine for a hobbyist with limited resources.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 01:58:53 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 03, 2014, 05:32:16 pmI totally agree with you. I have a 17" laptop, mobile phone, and a couple of desktops and a server. I use the laptop for running car diagnostics with a Ford VCM and Renault CLiP, and other odds and sods like hacking batteries, etc. But it is really really shit to use compared to a proper desktop.Sorry, but I need a full keyboard, mouse, and at least 2 displays. The usability of a real mouse and keyboard wipes the floor clean over shitty touchpads or touchscreens. It doesn't matter how powerful the engine is under the bonnet when you only have a shitty automatic gearbox compared to a proper manual (stick shift? for the USA).

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 02:10:54 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 03, 2014, 05:32:16 pmI was also going to raise the same point. I'm not sure AD actually scales in performace to many (4-80 physical cores or 8-160 [this is basically 1 to 8 sockets] virtual ones) cores or with the uncrippled dp-float or to the other uncrippled features in WS cards. I'd actually be curious to know if AD scales with video performance: say from 1 high end card to Quad-fancymarketingterm

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 04:05:28 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 02, 2014, 10:14:08 pmdude dont even mention that, i browsed about current HT its still the same no magic, at most HT can only give you 10-20% boost, but worst sometime you wont see any difference or even make things slower. real algorithm needs real physical core. you may as well entirely disable HT to avoid software confusion.Quote from: free_electron on February 02, 2014, 10:14:08 pmwhen we are talking ergonomics we usually dont talk about technical side of a thing, how powerfull the chip or cpu can cramp the mips in or how cool it is. ergonomics... its something more correlated to human form factor. one can push thing miniaturized, but all in all he will drag it away from "ergonomination" or "ergonomistic" whatever you want to term it. 1920x1080, if its in 8" monitor is still useless to the eyes. with physically larger screen, no matter whats the resolution is (given a practical and some acceptable dpi threshold, say at 1000 x 800 @ 23" screen) we are able to look at it for farther distance without sacrificing loosing perception to objects 3D space and time, hence avoiding things like myopia crap. one can say oh we can finger spread and zoom on smaller monitor, well yeah, you still loose alot of 3d space and time.for photoshopp geeks that say it can be done in tablet, tell me how are you going select multiple layers, merge or group and copy (duplicate) in under than 5 seconds? (last night i did just that on the PC) one can say bye bye to a PC (something with full keyboard and mouse), they'll also bid bye bye to all the goodness and dandies of the good ol days.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 04:28:59 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on February 03, 2014, 05:32:16 pmThere is no fixation at all - perhaps you haven't been keeping up with the various debates throughout the thread? The point I was addressing had nothing to do with whether Altium will run on less-than-top-end hardware (there is no debate that it will), the point I was making was that portable devices will always be inferior in processing power to fixed devices. The more portable the device, the less powerful it will be - and that is never going to change as some folks think (i.e. the suggestion that in the future, the apps will run on the smartphone/tablet with the video/keyboard using traditional fixed hardware).That desktops (or full fledged laptops) are going to remain the weapon of choice for any serious engineering means that the claims that we won't have Windows desktops in 5 years aren't going to come true.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 04:38:00 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on February 04, 2014, 04:28:59 amYes, there are two different arguments going on in this thread.Regardless of how "powerful" handhelds get, Altium and most other major companies that write such high end tools won't ever bother supporting supporting any phone or tablet OS, because that is not how their users use the product and won't use their product for the foreseeable future.Altium will still be on Windows in 10 years time, bet your bottom dollar.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 05:47:07 am
content: Quote from: Fsck on February 04, 2014, 02:10:54 amIt doesn't. At my PPoE, I had an 8 core machine (4 + hyperthreading) running Win7 x64. Whether moving stuff around, performing DRC, building objects, or even running a simulation, it only ever used exactly 12-13% CPU (or none when idle). I would recommend at least a dual core machine to run Altium and the like (thus giving you free CPU cycles to do things in the background while Altium is "thinking"), but more than that won't yield much benefit unless you're doing other things that warrant it.That's another big pile of BS that they'll have a hard time with: using multithreaded code. A single thread SPICE engine, this day and age, is ridiculous. Single thread anything.I am impressed that they can at least catch module-level crashes. Though like Windows 98, it leaves the rest of the process unstable and still needs to be restarted. They could have Windows XP-level stability if all they had to do was merely restart crashed threads.Tim

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2014, 08:09:15 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on February 04, 2014, 04:28:59 amthe actual argument i believe is that whether Altium will extent their support to other OS and then later came the tablet argument to make Altium to be able to run in. will Altium ever catch with the today's trend or mainstream? currently? its a big NO from number of experience users here. what is "no debate" is whether Altium (or other Pro SW) will go "full" on "tablet"? (or even lower-end-hw for the sake of it) that is delusional dream imho. what is discussed is tablets is going mainstream no doubt there, mainstream as crush candy game, WhatsApp ChitChat yes, but the misconception is tablets is going mainstream in the line of "Pro users"? the points have been laid out by both sides.Altium support for other OS and HW will certainly make it easy on the reach to "young people" (or from the linux side of people) but soon the young or linux people who decide to go Pro Altium, they have to pick PC (or Windows), so this one is rather chasing each own tails type of business but Altium does not chasing anything, it decided to expect that people will chase it. so God speed.

author: jmole
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2014, 06:22:42 pm
content: My apologies for not thoroughly searching the thread, but I'm wondering if Altium has released any kind of concrete timeline or pricing scheme for the different levels of AD14? Really don't want to get on the phone with Sales right now.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2014, 06:26:42 pm
content: Quote from: jmole on February 15, 2014, 06:22:42 pmNot that I have seen. I am itching to find out too, I might be able to save a bucket of money on my subscription.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2014, 06:51:52 pm
content: There is no timeline or pricing known.It is going to be a multi-level pricing scheme. You buy the options and features you want/need.What the pricepoints will be is unknown. (like : 100$ could be eurocard 4 layer pcb , 250$ could be unlimited 4 layer etc <- speculation , as example only )What the limitations of the pricepoints will be is unknown. ( like: the 100$ version could be for non-commercial use only <- note:speculation. as example only)The tool does exist . I even know what color scheme of the splashscreen is.And that's all i'm going to say about that. Anything beyond that is speculation and / or i don't know

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2014, 10:11:28 pm
content: Quote from: jmole on February 15, 2014, 06:22:42 pmNo, but the sales people thought (and were telling people) it was due in Oct (last year), that's why I rushed to video at the time because I was of the understanding that it was imminent.Looks like that was either:a) BS and never going to happenb) was the plan but they changed their minds after seeing my video (one can only hope!)

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 15, 2014, 10:21:29 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on February 15, 2014, 06:51:52 pmI've since heard that they were planning in the $1K range as the lowest option (i.e. match Eagle's highest level pricing), but this could be completely wrong.QuoteYes, the tool does exist and has been shown to people. Haven't seen it myself though.Maybe even to all of the Beta users, but they are under a non-disclosure agreement.Another rumor is that it's an entirely new tool, with new-ish usability i.e. not just the full product with features and options disabled, which is of course a very stupid way to do it if that turns out to be the case. But once again, could be completely wrong.The only thing we seem to know for sure is that they have told the shareholders they are committed to it, it's part of their grand plan for market domination. So unless they do a complete about-face to the shareholders, it should happen eventually.It's a winning idea of course, the only thing is how much they'll screw it up by.(Yes, based on Altium's track record, I'm not using the word if)

author: koko79
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 11:27:22 am
content: I find it hard to believe they would make it a different tool. In Cadence whatever level you use it is the same GUI from free version to OrCAD to high end Allegro.I'll laugh my head off if Altium make the new tool different to the existing one!

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2014, 11:30:08 am
content: Quote from: koko79 on February 17, 2014, 11:27:22 amStart translating Delphi stuff to some 64 bit supported language, use the sales of the low end tool to fund the effort... Might make sense - or not.

author: Icchan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 12:15:10 am
content: I have tried to read the whole conversation, but I'm confused as to why some say that Altium Designer is even a choice unless you have a big company that's capable of providing that for you? I mean... 7000+ dollars for a license... that's not something one can buy without some serious business behind it.Kicad has had the CERN branch for more than a year now, and it has only 4 developers (two if you discount the administrators of that group) and that branch requires some serious money to be successful. The first estimates we're something like ~500k$ (300k€) and they can put in enough development to even surpass the Altium Designer in schematic and layout. Even if I highly doubt that it could be done entirely , the branch is a heaven sent since it tries to wake up the dried up development of the Kicad and bring it to somewhere what can really be used in a business or in a serious production environment and designing complex boards.I recommend anyone who can to support the CERN branch in donations or to be active in the development if it. We really need something that's truly capable, but open. And currently, we really don't have anything of that sort. This CERN branch could change the game entirely if it gets the support it needs.http://cernandsociety.web.cern.ch/technology/kicad-development

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2014, 07:05:14 pm
content: Quote from: Icchan on February 18, 2014, 12:15:10 amYep, I am currently using RS free DesignSpark PCB, and it's nice, but I can't import all my old OrCAD stuff. I've recently downloaded the CERN KiCAD and will use it for my next project before I get too used to DesignSpark. I believe Farnell used to give their version of Eagle for free, but now require licences. Compared to the ancient OrCAD DOS based interface the Windows based CAD packages are much nicer.

author: senso
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2014, 01:12:31 am
content: You can run Eagle as freeware or freemiun or whatever they call the 10x8cm two layer limited version this week..

author: luky315
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2014, 07:03:37 am
content: I talked with the guys on the Altium booth at the embedded world in Nürnberg. They were very skeptical and joked that a usable entry level version will come on the 1. April (for those from a differt culture:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fools%27_Day) or after the release of a "big" Altium Designer revision without annoying bugs

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 12:21:31 am
content: I worry that 15 will bring us something very useful, like 3D printing cases for our boards, instead of just making a rock solid product and making length routing ACTUALLY WORK.

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 05, 2014, 01:20:03 am
content: I tried to sign up for Altium's Beta Test program, specifically for their 'lite' version.I had a chat with rep yesterday, who regretfully told me that a lite version is currently on hold and there is no immediate development planned.I'm lucky enough to have access to Altium at work, but am putting serious thought into using KiCAD for my next home project.

author: halfwalker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 06:28:13 pm
content: I'm sure everyone has had a look at KiCAD. It works well enough, though it's definitely not great. Thing is, CERN has a nice roadmap for it ...http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cern-kicad/wiki/WorkPackagesIf they really do manage to come through on these, including the 3D work, then KiCAD will rapidly be able to overcome Eagle. The bloody window for Altium is shrinking. If they don't get off their ass right quick, they're going to miss the opportunity.They'll still be the best in many eyes, but that won't matter if people can get good-enough for bloody free. Get the AD Lite out there, with Dave's video rant taken to heart, and there's a chance to own the market. Miss it, and well, that would just be too sad wouldn't it.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 08:17:20 pm
content: Kicad doesnt come close to altium. even after all the work will be done in the Cern roadmap it doesnt come close.sure you will be able to draw a schematic and a board. but where is the mechanical integration , parts procurement, lifecycle management , library management ? for hobby that doesn't matter (although it is very nice that, at the end of the design i click one button and my order is placed at digikey or mouser) but industrially speaking ? Kicad or Eagle or the others don't have a chance.I was at the ALtium users group meeting yesterday and there was a presentation about this. Making a product is much more than spitting out gerber file from a netlist. it is everything from parts procurement, making sure everything fits mechanically, is connected electrically , can git rid of heat thermally , can deliver electrons in bulk where and when needed ( power analyses for trace widths ) , place nice with maxwells laws ( controlled impedance, differential routing m, planes etc )that is where altium pulls everything together.They are working hard at rewriting the core. there is an API and SDK avaialble and third parties have begun porting. Altium only has so many developers and there are area's where they cannot keep up with the leaders of the pack, so by exposing the API they can pull in these tools.ANsoft, Nimbic and a bunch of others are working on plugins for altium to extend the platform. it doesn't make sense for altium to work on a field solver. only a small subset of people need that. but, by allowing Ansoft to plug their solver into altium the people that need a solver can use the best there is !same for power analysis.Will these be available for hobby ? no. An Ansoft of Nimbic licence is tens of thousands of $. costs triple to quadruple the cost of altium itself. But, if you need it you need it. And it is now available in altium.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 08:37:04 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 13, 2014, 08:17:20 pmThat's all great and everything, but where is the low cost version they promised?

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 07:58:43 am
content: This illustrates micely why I let my support subscription to expire. Free_electron is right in most cases, but still:Quote from: free_electron on March 13, 2014, 08:17:20 pmThis is all good, and this is where Altium puts the effort. However, they have dropped the ball on basics:QuoteFail, if the product has more than one circuit board. Altium's one schematic = one circuit board project model was insufficient from the beginning (No ERC over connectors, no cable management etc.). I've used Altium 20+ years, and there is no effort to this direction.QuoteFail in much more basic stuff than power analysis, Altium gets the voltages wrong. The ERC is not sufficient: It still allows me to connect positive terminal to negative power input, drive 3V logic from 5V output etc. Nor does it understand programmable devices: A pin can be an output, input, 3-state etc depending on the application. In other words, when they went on from 95 or something like that (when they were about where KiCAD is now), I wanted to see a least some effort to the core application, electronic design. But there hasn't been any significant improvement in ERC in ten years or so.There are more shortcomings in the basics: Autorouter, placement*, bug fixing**, version management***, ... And as I don't see any effort for these, I'm not paying any more.*: How hard would it be to automatically distribute decoupling caps close to power pins? Not at all, provided the development managers get the mindset of actually understanding what the customers do and how they could help. Fail.**: All the fancy features are nice, but Altium still cannot route RAM, that function needs a bug-free length calculation routine.***: Did I say their project model flawed? It does not understand that there can be different versions of a product during the lifecycle? It does give hooks to version management software, but SVN does not tell me what is the difference with PCB 1.0 and 1.1.QuoteNot everything. Rather, Altium handles some stuff that others don't. Up to you if you need the fancy stuff, but the writing is on the wall: Ignore the core application needs and the users go away. I stopped paying. I'll save the money, and once someone (KiCAD 2018, perhaps?) has a schematic with ERC that understands electronics*, I'll switch. same for PCB. Altium is standing still on the core stuff; the competitor is guaranteed to get past at some point.*: Voltage ranges on pins, easy to change the pin function in a particular application, ERC over cables and connectors (boards connected together, automatic interface specifications!), net driven through a resistor is still driven etc. Lots of important issues that Altium has had years to address.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2014, 12:52:42 pm
content: Quote from: koko79 on February 17, 2014, 11:27:22 amI would agree. If my memory serves me correctly, Protel sold the rights to use & further develop their Autotrax PCB software to Microcode Engineering (USA) in the mid to late 1990's. Microcode added their own schematic & spice modules, bundling the whole lot together and selling it as "Circuitmaker". In about 2000, this product was competing against Protel International who then decided to purchase Microcode Engineering.Protel sold "CircuitMaker 2000" for a couple of years for AUD$1000 to $1500 before deciding it was eating into their full software suite. Protel (Altium) then canned the product (which was probably one of the best low end PCB packages for the money at that time).I could be wrong, but the Altium board has pulled the wool over its shareholders eyes for years now. It is likely that the board is up to its old tricks & is promising something it will never deliver (ie a full function version of Altium Designer that has a size/pin limitation for low end/entry level users).

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 11:19:08 am
content: Nick Martin sold his remaining shares in Altium (on 30th October 2013) for AUD$30.85 million. He waited 2 years after being booted for Altium's share value to rise.http://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/quotes/announcement/ALU/altium-limited/1461974Looks like booting him off the board was good for business, with sales increasing 11.2% and profit (after tax & interest) up by 177% for the half year ending December 2013.http://news.iguana2.com/thebull/ASX/ALU/785405For the second half 2013:American Sales US$10.2 millionEuropean Sales US$13.2 millionChina Sales US$4.5 millionAsia Pacific Sales US$2.6 million13th March 2014 - Altium announces new sales office in Newton, Massachusetts USA.Talk about revisiting the past!http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/03/prweb11662142.htm

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 02:28:52 pm
content: there is a lot that I want to see in altium, and it has a UI i quite like, this is what keeps me paying the subscription.Only real things I'd like to see are;multi board designs better supportedsupport for multi board tools/features, eg, board to board interconnects with mapped nets in schematics, mechanical alignment of boardsintegrated library sorting - basically sort libraries in the way f_e sorts his, but do it within the program, not as separate libraries for each thingan option to do a side-by side footprint library/schematic library so you can check your pins easier (though, you can do this with multiple windows)an easier way to make non-polarized passives that auto pin swapa better way to manage vias in pads in footprint, and polygonal padsbetter support for multiple groundsEven so, it isn't too important to me; the tool does everything I need it to do so far (aside from the multiple boards)I'm not fussed if they don't bring out a low cost version, i'm already paying for a sub and i don't mind it so it doesn't bother me.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2014, 02:51:06 pm
content: Multiple boards is being worked on. They gave a demo on the users group using a trick.Simply define a flex layer (which you do not export in the gerber). Draw the connects there so the tool now knows this pin of this connector is electrically connected to that pin.Then do your two or more boards . In board planner, set your folding lines and altium will verify mechafically that the connectors do align when the board is being stacked.Schematically you create two top levels with hierarchy. There is on pcb design holding all sub boards, and a flex layer to give the interconnect matrix.Works like a champ.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2014, 12:26:11 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 15, 2014, 02:51:06 pmHoly cow, thanks! I had never thought of that! Legend!

author: halfwalker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2014, 06:50:55 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 13, 2014, 08:17:20 pmAbsolutely agree. Same goes for Eagle, nowhere close to Altium. But look at the user-base for Eagle, simply because it's "good enough" and free for what they're doing. Once CERN gets closer, it too will be "good enough", and while we may pine and long for the cool features in big-boy Altium, we'll sigh and turn back to our Eagle/KiCAD setups, in many cases based purely on price.What hobbyist/make who's been playing with Arduino for a while and wants to branch out to his/her own designs and board is going to pay the Altium price ? They'll check it out, go "WOW, this is cool, I want this" and then have a coronary at the price. "Eagle ? KiCAD ? FREE ? Sign me up !" And bang goes another potential convert, who is also going to tell his friends or blog-readers "I use the free version of xxxxx" so now THEY'RE going to check it out.Altium sees the low-end as of minimal income-impact. At face value, that's probably accurate. But as Dave said in his video, going after the low-end is virtually NO COST to Altium. And by sheer gravity, it will pull others along, and lead to more seats sold.It's FREE MARKET SHARE, and they're leaving it on the table. "Meh, no thanks".

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 05:09:27 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on March 13, 2014, 08:17:20 pmFully agree. People are comparing mandarins with oranges. With Kicad you can't even change the background colour of your pcb. You can only have black!I find that a black background when working on pcbs for hours on end provides too much contrast for my eyes. I prefer a dark grey with black through hole pads ............... but perhaps that's just me.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 07:07:46 am
content: Quote from: halfwalker on March 16, 2014, 06:50:55 pmi dont know how they calculated it. maybe in their study there are 100 potential, high grade engineers or big organizations. but there are 1000 nonpotential hobbiests. since Altium is $5K a pop (cheapest) , and eagle is what? $500 a pop? (highest) so altium saw the $500K market, and decided the other similar $500K market as not worth it? too many support workload for 1K customers instead of just 100 customers? etc. or really the hobbiests market is like 100 potential customers only? the rest of the hobbiests are just white noise generators? using only limited free version or hoping for the cracked version to come out. hmmm Altium maybe right!?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2014, 07:20:05 am
content: Well, the big-buck strategy seems to be working for some people... *cough* Mentor Graphics

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 01:20:52 am
content: I was looking at this link which indicates that Altium reduced their price of AD in April 2009 to US$3995.http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1311978This must have been too cheap to keep the directors & the design staff in a job (& the shareholders happy) as the price has almost doubled in just 5 years.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2014, 11:35:48 am
content: I'm sure I can remember Protel 99se being around the AUD$13k mark

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 01:08:02 am
content: Interesting that Altium have just announced a price rise from July 2014, up by AU$2,000 to over AU$9,000 for a new licence.Maybe this is to make room for a low end product...or maybe doing software development in China isn't as cheap as they'd hoped.Subscriptions costs haven't increased thankfully.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 03:44:22 am
content: its worth the same as my mini car there that i used to work daily. buying altium is like buying another car sigh.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 03:51:56 am
content: Quote from: Kean on April 28, 2014, 01:08:02 amThe move to China failed as far as getting cheap (or any) programming talent. They now do a lot (majority possibly) of development in the Ukraine last I heard.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 03:53:26 am
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on March 21, 2014, 11:35:48 amAltium at one point did hit the US$12K mark or thereabouts before they decided to slash the price by about 70%. It has slowly crept back up since then.

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 02:20:29 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on April 28, 2014, 03:51:56 amIt's not THE Ukraine, it is simply Ukraine, just like THE Australia is actually known as our former Prison Colony.However,,moving into Ukraine just as it's the spark plug of the next World War is a pretty bold move for Altium, I'll give them that!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 02:32:43 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on April 29, 2014, 02:20:29 amAs I understand it, when the company moved to China, Altium had an key programer who wanted to move back to home, and used the opportunity to set up a programming division there. They found they could get good cheap and talented programmers there.China on the other hand, they found out the hard way that whilst you can get good programmers there, they are not cheap, and they are not loyal either. So even if you can find them and afford them, they don't stay long. So as I now understand it, the bulk of the core programming is done in (not the) Ukraine, with a few in China, and one or two possibly still left in the US. China does a lot of the grunt work like libraries, that used to be done in the original Tasmanian division (maybe a few left there?).

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 03:22:17 am
content: Aww, bugger. Reminds me I just decided to get into Qt programming for Nokia Symbian, the dev stuff HQ'd in Australia, then the bastards destroyed traditional Nokia in favour of shitty Windows Mobile CE/Phone/ whatever. What a fucking waste of my life that was. Sheesh. Thankfully only a week or two.I never knew Altium was Tasmanian? Damn! I hope those little Taz Devils are on their way to recovery from all that mouth cancer and stuff (crazy blighters keep biting each other in sex game stuff but spread a terrible disease, makes me sad)By the bye,From my experience programmers and electronic engineers from the former Eastern Bloc countries are excellent. Why on earth we bring in Indians on "skilled visas", etc., when they have clearly only got the job by cheating using braindump.com. testking, etc. is beyond my understanding. We have plenty of unemployed graduates in this country.I've had to deal with these teams both in India and when they are brought over to the UK. A lot of them are young and cry for home as they realise passing a testking does not make them a MCSD. But they can't go home, because their parents have paid thousands of rupees for them to be "the best IT guy ever" to the agent. It is nothing more than endentured/slave labour.... I think I need to go to bed...

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 04:10:10 am
content: Quote from: Macbeth on April 29, 2014, 03:22:17 amsame here, employment of immigrants where there are still lot of local talents unemployed. i can think of 2 things... one is immigrants are cheap and they are willing to work cheap. cheap is your definition, in their country (your currency) its not cheap. second, is local are too picky, they want a good job in the aircon, and to get paid premium...

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 05:14:51 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on April 29, 2014, 04:10:10 amor third, the immigrants are the top talents at their countries and they beat the left-over locals hands down.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 10:28:26 am
content: So, to summerise, not only is altium not releasing a cheaper feature limited version, they're upping the price of their current offering, withholding content by making you use their vault and charging yearly subscriptions for bug fixes that would otherwise render the product "not fit for purpose"

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 12:22:52 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on April 29, 2014, 10:28:26 amI could not have explained it any better.As I have said in several of my previous posts, I do not like Altium the software nor do I like Altium the Corporation. Perhaps others are slowly coming around to also see my point of view.

author: gregariz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 30, 2014, 09:54:15 pm
content: Quote from: Macbeth on April 29, 2014, 03:22:17 amThere's no shortage of engineers in the west and hasn't been for many years. The only shortage is in cheap engineers. There's also plenty of older/underemployed engineers out there who have fallen under the bus in various waves of industry shutdowns.

author: techydude
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 08, 2014, 02:47:02 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on April 29, 2014, 12:22:52 pmso what's your poison of choice?

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 01:31:13 am
content: Quote from: techydude on May 08, 2014, 02:47:02 pmAs most forum members know, I own Altium 6.9 & the current version of DipTrace. I am currently using Altium 14 (supplied by an outside company that I'm doing some design work for) & 18 months ago I worked on a 4 month project using Labcenter's Proteus design software (also supplied by an outside company that I was completing some design work for).These days I am finding more companies supply their own copy of the software for their new designs as this gives them complete control over the finished format. They then advertise for contractors who are familiar with the software on offer. It also means they have no issues later on with contractors using unregistered software.My thoughts:1/ Altium 14 has improved some of the productivity features over 6.9 & the screen drivers have been further improved (however both versions work fine under Windows 7 Professional). It has the steepest learning curve for new comers but is also probably the most powerful software in the 6K to 10K price range.2/ DipTrace is much faster & easier to move from the Schematic to PCB than Altium & the auto-placer is quick to set up & painless to use & actually does a great job. The autorouter works fine [but freerouting does a better job & is used just the same in DipTrace as the Spectra autorouter which is excellent (gives pretty much the same results as the Altium autorouter-sometimes even better]. DipTrace costs less than US$1000 which is pretty good value-but they do need to work on their screen interface, components libraries & cut/copy/paste clipboard. A new beta version addresses some of these but currently it has some placement/movement issues that need resolving.I regularly export diptrace files (both schematic & pcb) into Altium (via the P-Cad export filter) with excellent results. This lets me finish off some specific layout functions to the pcb that Diptrace does not offer.3/ I was pleasantly surprised with the ease of use & the power of Proteus. It has a straight forward menu interface, good screen drivers & was actually a pleasure to use. The pin limited versions start at around US$250 & rise to US$2000 for the unlimited pin version. It is definitely more powerful & polished than DipTrace & has fewer bugs in it.The most important thing is to determine what you require of the software. Many people purchase Altium & then never utilise its more powerful features. Some people squibble & buy DipTrace (& similar software) & then spend a lot more time on manual tasks that would have been much quicker/easier in Altium.Many people think they will require unlimited pin versions, then find that they are only designing pcbs with 50 to 100 components.Many people think they will make a living out of contracting their services, yet find it difficult to score those contracts (remember most companies that have on-going designs have their own employees doing this design work).What would I do next time around?If it were not the fact than many companies view Altium as the "defacto standard" (& hence demand the design be done in Altium) I would probably have just chosen Proteus ......... and saved more than $20K over the past 20 years.This thread refers to a (possible) new Altium low cost version for those just starting out. I agree with Dave that Altium is allowing other pcb software companies to keep their foot in the door by not offering an entry level version. I would limit it to say 750-1000 pins but would still offer all the bells & whistles so that users are encouraged to move up once their designs become larger. This would push out many of the smaller guys who survive on low costs offerings at the bottom end.Altium have made some pretty poor corporate decisions over the past 20 years (even refused to offer a demo package in the Protel days - how dumb is that!) ............ so a low cost limited version may never eventuate.Just my thoughts of course. I hope the information helps.

author: n3wbie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 11:50:31 am
content: Quote from: DerekG on May 09, 2014, 01:31:13 amI didn't realize licenses could be shared. How does that work, exactly?

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 12:40:00 pm
content: The company usually makes a computer available for you to work on, with access to the software and licenses.Tim

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2014, 02:01:39 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on May 09, 2014, 12:40:00 pmCorrect. I normally quote on the basis that I will work from my own offices on the design. One of the companies I contract to actually loads their copy onto a small form cube computer. Much faster than most laptops, easy to attach a large screen (or two) & yet easy to cart around. This particular cube computer has 2 x solid state HDD & weighs in at around 3KG -so it is easy to put in your luggage when travelling by air.You can determine that the licence is valid when you log into Altium's Component Vault as it comes up with the registered name of the company that owns it.

author: techydude
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 07:46:30 am
content: Quote from: DerekG on April 29, 2014, 12:22:52 pmThanks. Now I too have joined the ranks of knowing what you useI used Protel extensively through the 90s & early 2000s (DOS, then 98 & 99SE) then left the industry in 2003ish, until coming back into it all again in the last year or so. I like DipTrace too & completed my first significant PCB with it a few months ago, & about to start another on it this weekend. But DipTrace's rate of development seems very slow. The current version's been around for over 12 months? & the minor beta you refer to out for about 6? It's not inspiring me with confidence for long term use. Your thoughts on this?I wasn't planning on investing in a new Altium license, especially not while it's in a price up-swing phase. I got them down to $4750+gst, but that'll go up after 1July, with anybody's guess if there'll be a new license option to fill in the low end of the market...Then in the past week I got a short term gig with a client that's started with some Altium PCB work, & having to come up to speed in v13 ASAP. The demo version may or may not get me through that, or they "might" be able to let me use one of theirs (esp. if I drop my $/hour), but I guess there's the possibility of other clients popping up who require its use; as distinct from my preference for projects/clients where I can choose which ever EDA tool I want because I'm the principal designer. I now need to decide if it's worthwhile buying an Altium license for $4750+gst within the next 1.5 months (and stay on the upgrade bandwagon?). As you say, it's the default choice for lots of places, & it'll be a crap shoot whether I get more work like this as an "extra wheel" & need to supply my own license... *sigh*

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 01:33:22 pm
content: Quote from: techydude on May 11, 2014, 07:46:30 amThe latest "full" version of Diptrace was released in March 2013. The new Beta version of DipTrace 2.3.5 was released in February this year (2014). They will be receiving considerable feedback from their existing users to identify the major bugs in this beta. This process would normally take 3 or 4 months ......... maybe a little longer.Once done, they will release another "full" version of Diptrace. It is actually a reasonably large step, not a small beta increment. It would not surprise me if the version is bumped to Ver 3.xx when it is released.Some year's Diptrace release no new versions, in other year's they release 2 or 3 in a year (at no extra cost). At least they are not like Altium who for several years were releasing 2 versions every 12 months (remember the Summer & Winter Editions) which was being done to simply extract extra $$ from their customers.When you own previous versions of Altium they tend to work out upgrade pricing with the 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3 & 3/4 formula. They simply look at the cost of the current version and multiply by one of the fractions above to arrive at the price they quote you. It all depends on how old your existing version is.Once you are on the bandwagon with the latest version, you can simply calculate the "maintenance cost" every 12 months at being a little less than $2K to continue to be offered current releases. If you are designing boards day in day out, this cost is probably not too bad.

author: n3wbie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 03:00:00 pm
content: Quote from: techydude on May 11, 2014, 07:46:30 amI thought a license was $7k?

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 06:50:13 pm
content: Quote from: n3wbie on May 11, 2014, 03:00:00 pmA new license is about $7k, and will soon be more like $9k... but you *may* be able to negotiate a discounted upgrade price if you owned an older version. (I did, but that was 3 years ago)

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 12, 2014, 02:19:30 am
content: In fact... this morning Altium have sent out a special "limited time" upgrade offer, with upgrade prices ranging from AU$2995 to AU$4250.(with a pretty nice offer if you're still on Protel 99SE)Those prices include first year subs, but exclude Aussie GST.

author: EEVmarty
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 03:25:44 am
content: Quote from: Kean on May 12, 2014, 02:19:30 amYep, i just emailed/phoned them 2 weeks ago, and was told my Protel 98 could be upgraded for $2,499aud (ex gst) up until end of June 2014.Then prices go waaaay up to over $7k for an UPGRADE and around $12-13k for outright purchase.....sheesh.I've been fighting Protel/Altium for 20+ years on their ambitous pricing and nothing had been done about it.I reminded Altium AGAIN, that theyre not doing anything positive for the home-hobbyists market and alienating all of us, perhaps forcing us across to buy the somewhat affordable eagle system instead.I'm told the "level entry" version is still being discussed and no release date has been set, but i have been assured "it wont be as cheap as eagle", so i guess we're looking at a $3k entry-level/limited version.When i last enquired around 5 years ago, the salesperson suggested i enrol in a course, then i'm eligible to buy the student edition (exactly same as full version) for a measly $99+gst.He said all i need to do is re-enroll in the course year after year to keep extending the license......with courses ranging from $500-$1500 it's still cheaper than the full purchase...The only thing Altium are absolutely positively unquestionably doing is encouraging software piracy, enuff said ;-)

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 06:40:51 am
content: Quote from: EEVmarty on May 13, 2014, 03:25:44 ammake that $1500 - $5000, thanks LIB's

author: techydude
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 11:53:03 am
content: Quote from: n3wbie on May 11, 2014, 03:00:00 pmIt is, but they offered me that lower price based on an upgrade of my very old version.Now it looks like upgrades are even cheaper for the next 6 weeks.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 11:54:42 am
content: Quote from: techydude on May 13, 2014, 11:53:03 amAltium always do that, it's a way to make the subscriber growth numbers look good for the end of financial year report.

author: techydude
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 11:57:51 am
content: Quote from: Kean on May 12, 2014, 02:19:30 amKean,Amazingly, I appear to have not yet been fed to their email list. Could you forward this to me, please? techydude at gmail dot commany thanks.

author: n3wbie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 01:09:49 pm
content: Quote from: EEVmarty on May 13, 2014, 03:25:44 amBut the student version isn't supposed to be used commercially, right?

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 13, 2014, 01:47:43 pm
content: Quote from: techydude on May 13, 2014, 11:57:51 amDone!

author: EEVmarty
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 14, 2014, 09:48:16 am
content: Quote from: n3wbie on May 13, 2014, 01:09:49 pmCorrect, but as a home-hobbyist that isn't an issue....however, if you are intending to sell your designs then you should buy the real license, even though many of us would have a tiny hobby side-income that still doesnt justify the HUGE pricing structure.....GREED aint good ;-(

author: K6TR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2014, 03:23:47 am
content: Just want to say thanks to for this discussion. I have found it very informative and influential in making my decision about which license to purchase. I have been surveying the market for a couple of years and deferring my pcb design work to a friend who has Dip Trace. I'm to the point where I want to start designing the boards myself. Right now I'm more in the hobbyist class than a commercial producer but I don't want the restrictions that come with Eagle or KiCAD both programs I view as Dead Ends. I watched Dave's video he did about a year ago when Altium announced that it was rethinking its business strategy with an eye towards offering a low end product. I even delayed my purchase decision to see what would come of it. And as ludznc revealed a few pages ago it appears Altium's arrogance is an old habit that will die hard. No one is interested in Slow Nickels anymore and Altium is no exception.I think its time for Dave to update EEvblog 527. Last year Altium whacked its CEO and made overtures stating they were going to mend their ways and come out with a Free/Low Cost Version of Designer. 18 months later we find out they have fallen off the wagon. I don't know about Dave or the members of the forum but I don't appreciate being trifled with in this manner.There is no doubt about it Altium is the 800 pound Gorilla of PCB Design Software. Regrettably IMO that has to be respected. But that doesn't mean I have to purchase their licenses. From what I have seen and read about DIP Trace it is a solid PCB Design Software Package. It's not perfect but nonetheless a very good program. Do they update and improve their product to meet the needs of its users ? That's a matter open to discussion. But DIP Trace files can be exported to Altium, if necessary, and 3rd Party Auto Routers can be imported into DIP Trace. All of these factors taken together make purchasing a DIP Trace License a no-brainer. With that said last Wednesday I purchased a DIP Trace Starter License with the intention of upgrading it in 90 Days, sooner if the Final Release of 2.3.5 comes out sooner.So Dave when is 527 going to be updated with a more comprehensive analysis of the PCB Design Software available on the market ?

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 19, 2014, 05:42:03 am
content: For what its worth, i talked Altium into doing a deal for a competitive upgrade from "eagle" to Altium, and paid just over NZ$5000+GST for it. I was cheeky and asked, and they did the deal.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 19, 2014, 07:46:25 am
content: Quote from: K6TR on May 19, 2014, 03:23:47 amComparing PCB packages is a huge undertaking. Just say'n...

author: K6TR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2014, 12:41:43 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 19, 2014, 07:46:25 amThanks for the response DaveYes I concur comparing PCB Packages would a daunting task. Using the term "comprehensive analysis" was a poor choice of words.As I see it we have a log jam on this matter. What the situation has evolved into is "Different Strokes for Different Folks", at least for the moment.To me there are 3 Principle Players. Eagle for the Hobbyist/Experimenter Class, Altium for the Business/Developer segment and Dip Trace serving as a bridge between. Programs like KiCAD, OrCAD and Proteus are niche players who will exist as long as they can carve out a market share big enough to maintain a positive cash flow. That's not a good outlook for their future. I don't know much about the market other than Dave's statement that Altium holds about 50,000 seats which are considered lucrative seats.I am suspicious Altium's flip flop on its position regarding the entry level product. I suspect there is a key shift in strategy among the Altium Board. I do think that Altium will eventually field an entry level product. But it will come as a result of a Take-over. I don't know the specifics of Nick Martin's dismissal but usually these types of actions come as a result of a fundamental shift in the dynamics of the company and/or the business environment. Most likely Martin's demise came about from a poor earns report combined with a report stating that Altium had hit "Maturity". Maturity meaning the growth in Seats will slow down dramatically. This would explain the hefty price hike come July 1. It's the only way for them to boost earnings now.Altium's announcement that they were coming out with a low cost version of Designer was in all likelihood premature. The Board probably got some bad news and they hastily formed an interim policy. That policy was formulated based on long standing complaints. In the mean time the Board did what boards do in these circumstances, they commissioned a consulting firm to study Altium, its product line, the market, the prospects and determine the best course of action they should take. When they got the report back it said the market and its players were established. It also probably told them that if they rolled their own Low Cost PCB CAD Software they would meet with initial success but the process to increase market share would be a long and slow. The logical way to quickly increase market share is to take over a competitor and I would imagine that's what the consulting report advised them to do. So the plan to roll their own entry package was tossed back into the draw. That doesn't mean Altium has foreclosed on the offering.It would seem to me that EAGLE is the juiciest candidate for Altium to buy up, they are the "Defacto Standard" for hobbyists. I don't know German Anti Trust Law but I would imagine that Altium would get more grief from the US Federal Trade Commission if it decided to pursue such an acquisition. Altium could hold the fall-back position of buying up Novram but the best target is Eagle. Even if it means taking a Wrecking Ball to their existing software package and starting over from scratch. Eagle represents the biggest market share. And that's what it's all about.....increasing Market Share.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2014, 01:42:43 am
content: Quote from: K6TR on May 20, 2014, 12:41:43 amProteus receive more income these days on their microprocessor simulation products than on their PCB design software, so I believe they will be around for a good while yet.QuoteI believe it is all about making sure the learning curve remains the same. A takeover of another design product would be more work for them than cutting down a few features in their existing product. The takeover of P-CAD proved that it is too hard for Altium to keep the new product running for more than a few years.Previous takeovers have occurred because Altium wanted the product to complement their own PCB design software (like CAMtastic) or because they wanted to remove a competitor from the marketplace (ie P-CAD).QuoteQuite right. It was simply spin directed at the shareholders to show Altium had a plan to increase future profits.QuoteQuite right.QuoteAltiums big worry is "how many of their full paying customers actually need the full package?" and "how many of these full paying customers will simply migrate to the cheaper entry level version?"QuoteIf Altium bring out a cheaper entry version, EAGLE will die a slow death without having to purchase it. Remember that Element 14 purchased it to integrate with their components purchasing engine. Element 14 would not let it go cheaply.http://www.premierfarnell.com/content/element14-accelerates-design-cycle-pcb-design-software-cadsoft-eagle-asia-pacificQuoteNot a problem as EAGLE is not considered a "consumer product".QuoteAgain, not a "consumer product" plus the Feds would simply see it as an American operation extending its wings. So again, not a problem.QuoteWhich they would only be interested in doing if they wanted to remove DipTrace from the market place, perhaps by offering existing users a cheap crossgrade to Altium.Just my 2c worth of course

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 20, 2014, 02:09:42 am
content: Quote from: K6TR on May 20, 2014, 12:41:43 amNot going to happen. Eagle is owned by Element 14, and is strategic to their plans.Ironically, Element 14 paidmorefor Eagle than the entire market value of Altium at the time a few years back.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 20, 2014, 02:13:32 am
content: Quote from: K6TR on May 20, 2014, 12:41:43 amIronically, buying Novram would be a sensible options for several reasons:1) It is written in Delphi, the same as Altium2) The company is based in the Ukraine, where Altium also has an R&D center and a lot of their core PCB programming is done.But ultimately it would be silly because Altium's goal is (or should be) to provide an easy upgrade path to the full version of Altium. You don't get that by providing a different package that works completely differently, you get that buy simply crippling the main package and providing realistic upgrade pricing levels.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 20, 2014, 02:15:46 am
content: Quote from: K6TR on May 20, 2014, 12:41:43 amAs I said in the video, Altium could crush Eagle practically overnight and steal their market share by providing a better price point low end product, and a matching free version.The ONLY reason Eagle is the defacto standard in the low end is because if had a free version when the hacker/maker movement rose up.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2014, 07:02:49 am
content: Quote from: K6TR on May 20, 2014, 12:41:43 amThere are several in the business range. Cadence (e.g. OrCAD and related) and Mentor Graphics (e.g. PADS) come to mind.From what I've seen, OrCAD isn't too bad, not nearly as pretty as Altium but not really frustrating; but why anyone would buy PADS, and for what price (anyone know how much it goes for?), is beyond me.Tim

author: n3wbie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2014, 01:11:19 pm
content: Quote from: K6TR on May 20, 2014, 12:41:43 amYou're saying Dip Trace is better than Eagle? If that's true, why is Eagle so much more popular?

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2014, 02:07:49 pm
content: I don't see why people hate Eagle so much, I mean, the interface isn't all that nice if you are used to the standard way of Windows, I picked Eagle up a lot quicker than Altium, and Eagle although initially a bit daunting, not so unintuitive when you figure out some basics.Yes Altium is good, if you can afford it, half of the features you don't need or will ever use, I would expect it to be 10x better for 10x the price, I can't see though that there are that many things you can do in Altium that Eagle can't do, it will be done in a different way, but thats personal preference, it might be harder to do in 1 package than in A N other, but again, you get used to it.I have to use certain packages for work purposes, some I like, some I loathe, if I was working alone I would probably use Eagle all day everyday, yes DipTrace is a strong contender, but, you try both and pick the one you prefer, I find the library editor in eagle a breeze to use.If Altium did bring out a low cost contender then yes people would try it, but the fact is that Altium is expensive, a low cost version would have to be quite special to complete with Eagle in my opinion, and they would not shoot themselves in the foot as they would lose potential sales in their normal Altium version, so for that reason I can't imagine they would ever bring out a useful low cost version, and how many would actually use it.I see a lot of comments about Eagle being for "hobbyists", its a big part in the hobbyist community because they have a free version, if they didn't then more people would pirate professional packages such as altium and that would become the "hobbyist" tool of choice no doubt, DipTrace is low cost, another reason for being a part of the hobbyist community, I cannot honestly say I have seen requirements for a PCB designer to be using DipTrace, KiCAD (Which is also quite good for what it costs, free!), or any other package in such class, I have seen Altium, OrCAD and a surprising number of Eagle in professional (and military / government) job requirements, backed by E14 also makes it a favourite to a lot of professional companies, as most components come from Farnell / Newark etc.Proteus is the best tool I have used for simulation of uC's, Eagle can integrate LTSpice, I haven't seen Proteus in any job requirements though, I am in the UK (South West), so I can only comment on what i've seen in this part of the world / country.I know Eagle is quite big in France also as I know EE's in France who say it is more of a standard within professional companies over there, again, might be regional, but still.Just my 2p's worth.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 20, 2014, 02:18:53 pm
content: Quote from: n3wbie on May 20, 2014, 01:11:19 pmBecause it is the defacto standard. Most of the hacker/maker/hobby movement used it because of the free version and everyone else used it. Yes, DIP Trace have a free version too, but has far less publicity and word of mouth support, so they didn't cut a break when the OSHW movement took off.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2014, 02:42:04 pm
content: Quote from: n3wbie on May 20, 2014, 01:11:19 pmYou should know very well that popularity has little to do with quality.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2014, 10:39:13 pm
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on May 20, 2014, 07:02:49 amMentor bought PADS because they wanted a middle-range PCB package, something to complement the $$$$ Expedition package. I looked at it a few years ago, and it seemed like it was very much on par with Altium at the time. Moving to PADS would have been a lateral move. The decision to stay with Altium was made when they dropped the price from like $13K a seat to $3K a seat.OrCAD probably matches the features of Altium and PADS fairly equally. Obviously they have to.I suppose that institutional inertia makes companies stick with one package. Revamping libraries is a pain, training is a pain, figuring out how to continue to get access to old designs is a pain. Something really has to suck with your current package to get you to switch.Oh, one more middle-low-end package is NI's Ultiboard. I bought a copy of Ultiboard 2001 way back when, and it was a competent package, certainly good for what I was doing with it. I never upgraded because it was sufficient.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 20, 2014, 11:36:08 pm
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on May 20, 2014, 10:39:13 pmSix years ago OrCAD pretty much matched the schematic side of Altium, but it was quite behind on the PCB layout side. It may be that OrCAD has been catching up on Altium since I last used it in 2008.ADDED:At least OrCAD have learnt that you need a low end "Lite Version" to encourage users to try it.http://www.orcad.com/resources/orcad-lite-overview"You cannot save boards that have more than 50 components and/or 100 nets. However, you can still view larger designs."http://www.orcad.com/sites/default/files/resources/files/OrCAD-Lite-Limits.pdfAre you listening Altium?Are you an Altium shareholder? Then tackle the board at its next AGM & refuse to have the wool pulled over your eyes for another 10 years!

author: K6TR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 04:07:52 am
content: QuoteDave what I call into question is to what degree a low cost version of Designer could displace Eagle. And what expense Altium is prepared to go to achieve that end. There is little doubt in my mind a low cost version of Designer could demolish Eagle but not without a protracted fight that has the potential to be both costly and embarrassing for Altium.This is not about engineering or whether Atium could provide a better mouse trap. Its about Altium's marketing and perception of Eagle's Users about its product. There is an old adage in Marketing that it takes 10 times the effort and 10 times the expense to gain the purchase of a new customer versus reselling to an existing customer. The essence of this adage revolves around loyalty that is built up from satisfaction. If a customer's expectations are met by a product they buy and they experience few if any troubles with the product they are more likely than not to unquestioningly repurchasing the same product. In your claim that Altium would demolish Eagle in short order, were it to launch a competing product to Eagle, I (we) would need some evidence that there a large amount of customer dissatisfaction with Eagle. Note I'm not saying Eagle is a good product or a bad product. What I am saying is from my perspective the customer perception of the Eagle Program is "it's good enough". This is why targeting Eagle for acquisition represents a strategy that is more likely to guarantee success. No doubts Altium targeting Novram is a more elegant solution but buying out Eagle forces all of its users to consider Altium. A buy-out of Novram would not only necessitate a remodeling of Dip Trace it would require a costly marketing campaign. And even if that campaign is successful at peeling off most of Eagles users Eagle could still survive as a Niche Player.

author: K6TR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 05:31:44 am
content: Quote from: DerekG on May 20, 2014, 01:42:43 amWhy would they want to do that Derek ? DIP Trace is an established product that is no threat to Altium DesignerAs I mentioned to Dave. A take over of Novram by Altium is far more elegant than going after Eagle. Altium could retain the Dip Trace name as a Product Name developed for the Hobbyist/Experimenter/Start-up Business markets. Then offer Designer for the large scale Business/Developer.Altium over the course of several iterations could modify Dip Trace to have its look, feel and functionality resemble Designer in a number of respects while still retaining its original signature. Dip Trace in its present form can export its files to Designer if needed so all that is left to be done is to make Dip Trace conform to the Designer ethos. This would provide Altium with the opportunity to REALLY send the price of Designer through the roof. Something on the order of $20,000 to $25,000 for a Principle License for a 24 month term. And then offer satellite licenses that are renewed on a quarterly basis for 250 dollars a pop.By keeping DIP Trace and Designer as separate products Altium could effectively insulate Designer from any negative effects in a number of respects and formulate pricing and marketing strategies that are tailored for each.Buying up Novram is by far the more elegant solution for Altium. But that isn't the way business runs these days. It's "buy-up your competition, as much of it as you can, even if it means going into hock up to your eyeballs" !Excuse my cynicism.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 01:19:34 pm
content: Quote from: K6TR on May 21, 2014, 04:07:52 amEmbarrassing?Almost everything Altium have done in the last decade marketing and direction wise has been definition of embarrassing!This isn't my wet dream of course, Altium have publicly stated very emphatically that their goal is to dominate the low end PCB market, and that Eagle is king of that hill. So they either go in with all guns blazing, or they don't do it at all. My fear (and why I did the video) is that Altium will most likely go in with a half-arsed effort that will be doomed to failure from the get-go.QuoteOk, try this:To make a single sided PCB 161mm or bigger in any dimension in Eagle requires a license that costs US$1145.So if you want the worlds simplest PCB with two leds on it that big, you have to pay the money. That is madness.I would argue that is a requirement that almost every Eagle customer will eventually hit.Right there Altium have a huge open door into the market.QuoteAltium buy Novram would be a big mistake. It would just waste their already very limited resources and provide no upgrade path to their cash cow product.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 01:30:54 pm
content: Quote from: K6TR on May 21, 2014, 05:31:44 amNo way. In the PCB (and CAD/EDA market in general) industry, tool familiarity is everything. Having a low end product that is totally different in look and operation to the product you ultimately want people to buy into, is a very bad move.Why would you do that when you already have one of the worlds best EDA tools and beats Eagle is way shape and form, and you can prune down and restrict features or capability with very little effort. It's a complete no-brainer, just cut down Altium Designer and it's a win in every imaginable way.QuoteThe classic recipe for disaster.Why would you send money to buy the company, get it's programmer up to speed, cross-pollenate your already thin design team for maybe years to bring that product up to scratch, when you can just cut a few lines of restriction code in your existing product?QuoteI'll grant you that one. That would be the only realistic benefit I could think of.But they could also get a similar effect by simply renaming their cut down Altium-Designer. Give it a few minor cosmetic differences, a different splash screem, and Bobs'ya'Uncle.

author: koko79
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 03:37:07 pm
content: Apologies if this taking it off topic but Mentor just announced this low end tool with Digikey -http://www10.edacafe.com/nbc/articles/1/1280280/Mentor-Graphics-Digi-Key-Bring-Professional-EDA-Software-Engineering-Masseslooks like it is $300 no idea on limits and whether it is Pads or Expedition GUI.Oh Mentor also just bought Nimbic who I think Altium recently partnered with for some SI and PI Solutions.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 04:03:54 pm
content: Gosh, that was looking good...QuoteOh, perhaps not after all. That completely killed any interest I might've been working up to. Don't care if they supply it free and gratis either.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 11:42:01 pm
content: Quote from: koko79 on May 21, 2014, 03:37:07 pmQuoteLeader in what way exactly? Number of seats, revenue, number of board designed...?QuoteWhy specifically mention prototyping, and "transition to" production ? What's missing then? Capabilty, licence restriction?QuoteQuoteWho, what..?My reading of this is that this is just schematic capture with an online parts library - nowhere does it mention PCB layout - I suspect "Design service Providers" means PCB layout people who have their expensive tools.If it does include PCB layout, it will be tied to specific PCB suppliers using a non-standard format, like expressPCBI'm getting a very strong "Nothing to see here" feeling about this.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 21, 2014, 11:50:21 pm
content: More info on the Mentor/Digikey thing herehttp://www.digikey.com/techxchange/message/12421Video mentions limits of 6 layers and 50 square inches (160x100mm Eurocard = 24.8 sq. inches)

author: K6TR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 06:46:21 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 21, 2014, 01:19:34 pmIt looks like they are having a tough time getting that far Dave. I refer you to Reply 170 made by ludzinc where he states:QuoteThis is not good news ! And for it to dribble out on a Message board raises some serious questions about where Altium is heading and what really are it's priorities ? The troubles between Martin and the Altium Bod came to a head in October 2012. But it appears they still don't have their act together 18 months later. As a matter of fact it was announced April 30th- May 1 that Altium was relocating its Executive Offices and core Engineer Staff back to San Diego. One article even poked fun at the development by titling the story"Nomadic Altium Tribe on the Move Again". The news reports of the move also state that it will take place in the 4th Quarter of 2014.It was also announced yesterday that Jason Hingston was appointed Chief Technology Officer for Altium. Quoting from an ARN Article:QuoteDave between Altium's relocation and Hingston's appointment do you think we are even going to read or hear anything about a "Lite Version of Designer" before the first quarter of 2015 ? And if there is an announcement at that time when will we see a product ready for download ? Novram has not been sitting still. They will have version 2.4 of Dip Trace out in a month or two and on their website they have announced their pricing structure to upgrade to Version 3.XX when it is released.Now put yourself in my shoes. I have been considering doing my own boards for the last 5 years. I have done my homework a have a lay-of-the-land of the players in the market and their offerings. As long as I have my friend to do up my boards it was no problem for me to put off the decision but the delays were getting annoying. Six months after your eevblog rant the situation is still as clear as mud with no end in sight. So at that point I decided to purchase my first Dip Trace License. I set the goal to have a minimal level of proficiency with the program and have my Dip Trace License Level up to the "Lite" level in 6 months. That will be some time in October. The further I get down the road the less likely I will migrate to another program. That time will be the last time I will readily consider moving over to a different platform. That should be at the point when the release of Dip Trace 3.XX is imminent. When that happens I will evaluate where Altium is with its low level package. If there are little more than rumors I will purchase Dip Trace 3.0 and upgrade from Lite to Standard. Once that happens it will take a Whale of a selling job to get me to move to another platform. If and when a Designer Lite program is announced I will down load it and evaluate what is there. I also have access to a cracked version of Designer so I will be able to see where the program is heading and then I can compare that with what I have with Dip Trace.With the information that has recently been released I would expect a RE-announcement of Designer Lite in the 1st Quarter of 2015. A product ready for download would follow in the 2nd Quarter of 2015. And like you said it would most likely be an amputated version of Designer with a new Splash Screen. More than that I would expect the Designer software that Altium decides to Operate on will not be a current version, like maybe a rev or two prior to what is in current release. Then we will see how much of Eagle's Customer Base they can peel off and how quickly they can do it.DIP Trace is a different story. The longer Altium delays the worse it will get. And there isn't a large number of seats held by Dip Trace just yet. If Altium's cash reserves are low, as your previous comments seem to suggest, Altium will be forced to devote their resources to focusing on Eagle's license seats/users, after all that's where the numbers are. The first release may not result in Eagle hemorraging seats/users. It may take several revisions of tailoring Designer Lite to get the desired result. The question is will Altium have the fortitude to pursue this course of action when there isn't a hole lot of money to be gained from it ? That's why I refer to Altium buying out Eagle. Only a buy out guarantees the demise of Eagle. And Eagle has to be Altium's top priority if they want to dominate the low end PCB design tool market. They can play the Long Game and hope Designer Lite accomplishes this objective on its own but there are no guarantees it will be quick.There are still too many variables that have yet to be answered to make any type of educated guess. I expect Altium will provide the information to fill in some of the holes at the end of the year.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 10:09:52 am
content: I was able to move to Altium for about $US4.5k, as a "competitive" upgrade from eagle.. We had just outgrown in.. been a slow month learning, but we're now ahead of the game, and the time savings will start paying off shortly.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 10:30:45 am
content: Quote from: K6TR on May 22, 2014, 06:46:21 amI would not bet on it!

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 10:35:25 am
content: I hope Altium doesn't buy up Eagle and / or DipTrace, and I hope they don't release a "lite" version, it seems a bit pointless for a company like Altium to release a "lite" version, maybe a free viewer, but just because they have a "lite" version doesn't mean it will necessarily change the world (or way people think), if people have been using another package for a number of years then there is no real reason for them to change to something unknown to them.Eagle and DipTrace have their own place in the market, like them or hate them, that's the real world, people like using them, E14 wouldn't sell Eagle I don't think anyway, not after what they paid for it, and it is arguably one of the most popular packages used today, which means a large percentage of the PCB designer population have spent time learning how it works and it's quirks, the few that might change is those that use AD for work purposes but use Eagle/DT for hobbyist and want to standardise their designs to one package.I think that peoples expectations are so high of Altium that if they did release a "lite" version then said people would only be disappointed that it lacked XYZ feature.But as I state, just my thoughts.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 10:52:24 am
content: Quote from: K6TR on May 22, 2014, 06:46:21 amThe article mentioned can be found here:http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1322173

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 11:12:25 am
content: Maybe it's a bit off topic but anyway.I checked out Zuken's website a couple of days ago after seeing here mentions of Zuken being very popular in Japan and that it's great and so on.They have a free version of Zuken Cadstar on their website, no time limits, no cut functionality, just a limit of 300 pins and 50 components (so basically like Diptrace only Diptrace free doesn't allow you to use the free version for commercial stuff, while with Zuken I didn't see such a note).However, it's almost impossible to find prices without contacting distributors ... i found some European distributor on Google that was quoting Cadstar Lite+ (2000 pins, 4 or 6 layers) at 1900 euro + VAT. That's... a lot.Now I'm wondering if I should spend a few days playing with this Zuken Express, they have a nice pdf on the website with a few tutorial designs and they seem easy to follow, but I'm not sure if it's worth investing time to learn it when the higher pin versions of the software are so expensive (relatively, compared to Diptrace or Labcenter Proteus for example, which I'm tempted to check out in more detail - the proteus 3 with unlimited pins and layers is 1225 uk pounds and you can also upgrade from version to version like you can with Diptrace).Can someone with Zuken experience chip in with their thoughts?and somewhat on topic... would you pay something like 500-1000 euro for a Zuken Cadstar with unlimited pins but restricted to 2-4 layers and maybe the Eagle board size limit ?

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 11:39:47 am
content: Quote from: mariush on May 22, 2014, 11:12:25 amI own DipTrace & Altium Designer 6.9 (& am using Altium 14 currently for work), but my favourite is Proteus (used it 18 months ago for an outside contract). Easy to learn (very intuitive), stable code, mature software & good value. Prices start for low end use at just US$248 and rise to US$2022 for the full blown unlimited version.Proteus is much more powerful than DipTrace, however it does not have all the bells & whistles of Altium ........... but it does do about 92% of Altium & most/many engineers don't use the remaining 8% that Altium has to offer.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 11:54:42 am
content: Proteus looks good, but the "one plane per layer" restriction on the lower-priced versions is off-putting. I use multiple and split planes frequently in analog designs (not unusual for an amplifier of some sort to have e.g. 25, 15, 0, -15, -25 rails).That doesn't really strike me as an "advanced" feature...

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 12:01:46 pm
content: Quote from: K6TR on May 22, 2014, 06:46:21 amYes. From what I have now heard they had a beta version and it was out and few people were trying it. It was a seperate program to Altium Designer.They seem to have either gone cold on the idea or had a big rethink in the direction.QuoteJason used to be my boss, he was the head of the PCB group for many years. One of the few remaining "old guard". Almost all of the main PCB coders are now gone. Excellent programmer, but was never cut out for people management. The only logical choice left for CTO I think, and it's a good choice. Jason is good technically, and has always been focused on core PCB stuff, good on him, he deserves it.QuoteI have no idea. I thought the program release was imminent at the time which is why I rushed that video out.Jason alone could personally strip out or limit features required for a lite version in a week, I'm sure. So if a lite version never comes out it means:1) They have dropped the idea2) They are doing something really stupid, like writing a whole new version. (Which is what I have heard the beta version kinda was)3) They are stuck in marketing analysis paralysis.QuoteWith all due respect to Novram, what they do is rather irrelevant in the Altium/Eagle battle. They are not on Altium's or anyone else's radar I suspect.QuoteYou spent far too long procrastinating!Really, it doesn't matter what one you pick, what matters is laying out boards. All will do the basic job.QuoteThat is very common, and is one of the main reasons why Altium didn't go out of business when they spent a decade doing little but pissing off their existing customer base in the wild search for a new customer base that didn't exist.There was little competition in the Altium price bracket, and people and companies are reluctant to move tools.QuoteSame with everyone else. Which is my Altium can't do a half arsed job of it, they have to offer massively compelling reasons to change.Altium Designer has that capability to wow, it's just a matter of what they offer and for how much.QuoteQuoteNo, hat would be a silly choice. No real advantage to it, and you only gain pain by having to manage two different rev programs.Any smart company would just software license limit the features of the main package, then you only have to maintain and focus on one. In fact the "lite" version needed take ANY company resources at all, as I said in my video. No programmers, no marketing, no support, it's a freebie if you do it right.QuoteAltium won't be doing this for the money, because the money there is in it is pretty much chump change. Although if done right it is free chump change. As I said in my video, they would be doing this to brag about the number of seats they have, owning the whole market, and getting the vertical sales from people who step up.QuoteIt's pointless even contemplating that, Element 14 won't sell Eagle. It's not for sale.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 12:10:06 pm
content: Quote from: Wilksey on May 22, 2014, 10:35:25 amRemember, Eagle is NOT a cheap package. Because of the size limitations, to even do some basic stuff it the full package price of over $1100There is a big window there for Altium to offer a compelling option.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 12:12:13 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on May 22, 2014, 11:12:25 amI wouldneverpay serious money for a size restricted program. That is one of Eagle's biggest problems IMO.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 12:15:03 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 21, 2014, 11:50:21 pmHow stupid is it to release just the schematic, with the PCB "introduced in the future."

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 12:40:59 pm
content: QuoteThat may be so, but what if Altium release a size limitation version?The main difference between DT and Eagle apart from the interface, which I know everybody LOVES! Is the fact that one limits size, and one limits pin count, I guess you Dave are all for pin count limitation rather than size?What would be good is if CadSoft released Eagle in a lite mode but with the option to limit pin count OR limit board size, it wouldn't make the interface any better, but it would make it more desirable as a free package to people would it not?

author: n3wbie
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 12:45:10 pm
content: I would definitely be for a pin count limitation as well, for two reasons:1. A lot of professionals design very small boards, which means if the only limitation was board size Altium would lose out on a lot of companies buying the full version licenses.2. A lot of times hobbyists want to design simple boards that exceed the allowed dimensions in Eagle, which is very frustrating. For example, I have a friend who wanted me to make a PCB to hold four large push button switches (that's it, no other components!), but I couldn't do it in Eagle because he wants several inches of space between each button. It's just stupid that I would have to pay $1,600 USD to make a PCB with four push button switches.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 12:48:27 pm
content: Quote from: Wilksey on May 22, 2014, 12:40:59 pmI think I mentioned that in my video?If they do, then it's better than nothing, but it's just a "me too" copy of Eagle, and hence runs the greater risk of not having that wow factor to take away market share. It's the safe "competing" option that might be too little too late.QuoteYep, I hate board size limitations.Why?Because whilst I don't know what project I'll work on next, it's vastly more likely to be under a complexity limit than it is under a size limit. Size limitations mean you can't even do basic stuff like have two LED's on a single sided display panel. It's crazy.QuoteInteresting thought.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 12:52:11 pm
content: Quote from: n3wbie on May 22, 2014, 12:45:10 pmAnd that's the elephant in the room with Eagle. It's something I almost never hear about, yet I know happens with monotonous regularity, and almost certainly to every Eagle user given enough time. it's like you aren't supposed to talk about it...So what does the average hacker/maker Eagle user do in that situation? My guess is they pirate the full version for that project.Someone tell me I'm wrong...

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 02:12:05 pm
content: I do see peoples point on the frustration against Eagle for limiting the size of the board, I think my suggestion of giving the option would be a good move for CadSoft, but I doubt they would change it now.I guess a good option is to pirate Eagle, I have patched the latest version (6.5) myself for that reason.However, for simple boards like previously mentioned, KiCAD would be more than sufficient, but it is another package to learn.I can see why people also go for DT over Eagle for interface and price reasons.I did see your video's Dave on KiCAD and DT, and I concluded that you didn't think much of either, would have been good to see your impressions of Eagle, but I guess you have already seen it or used it? I have a version of DT and I must say I don't really like it all that much compared to what I am used to in Eagle.And as I mentioned before, Eagle professional isn't "free" but compared to the cost of Altium, I do struggle to see why Eagle would be a bad choice for someone on a budget and is used to the lite or standard version, apart from personal preference to go with Zuken or DipTrace or A N other package.

author: Rufus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 02:26:52 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on May 21, 2014, 11:42:01 pmThere is a concept which I think Altium has also envisioned where the CAD design package ties in with component, and PCB suppliers and assemblers via the web.You design a PCB using regulated component libraries that everyone understands and submit the design in a format everyone understands to the 'cloud' where a bunch of companies will quote to supply the parts and/or PCB and/or assemble. A couple of days after submission you choose a quote, click a button and however many days later boards will be delivered to you. The service provider would likely handle financials. It is like ebay for PCBS.The Altium vault crap is the cloud to hold and distribute the design information. The idea has a lot going for it but also huge issues with design security.This Digikey/Mentor stuff smells the same.

author: Wilksey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2014, 03:14:30 pm
content: I also have a version of AD 14, would that make it more "available"?I think the bottom line is that it comes down to what people can afford and what people are comfortable with.I don't make money on the PCB's I make with certain flavours of CAD packages, I use some of them commercially but they are fully licensed within my workplace.Having said that, KiCAD is doing quite well for itself in the hobbyist community, which doesn't need any patching, and I believe you can make commercial PCB's with it?

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 02:10:28 am
content: I'm trying to move from (work provided Altium) to KiCAD.The user interface is woeful. KiCAD need to get that refreshed and then they will be on a winner.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 02:58:06 am
content: Quote from: ludzinc on May 23, 2014, 02:10:28 amFully agree. Plus you only have a choice of background colour of ............... black or white! This is 1980's stuff!

author: marshallh
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 03:57:18 pm
content: That's because Kicad used to /still renders with graphical XOR. It's supposed to draw faster, but in my experience its barely usable on my 4ghz machine with a basic fpga board. Truly abysmal

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2014, 11:41:56 pm
content: Graphical XOR, what is this EGA? I'm not familiar with DirectX or OpenGL but something tells me such ancient modes and methods aren't even supported anymore.Someone needs to pile up a bunch of disgruntled EEs (which is basically all of us, amirite?) with a couple good software people and an industrial designer, and build some actually useful EDA software from a brand new codebase. The ancient bits in every existing platform from 1980 are embarrassing, but they'll never let them go no matter the pain.Tim

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2014, 04:19:06 am
content: Quote from: T3sl4co1l on May 23, 2014, 11:41:56 pmmy suspicion is not that they are using ancient method, but several layers of "portable friendly" ( or "encapsulation crap"?) of wxwidget classes before reaching real Win32 GDI API, i doubt they've implemented a single line of code for DX or OGL with such kind of abysimal graphic performance. using direct implementation of Win32 GDI API alone (or even your own custom made bitmap raster operations library) is several magnitudes better than KiCAD's.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2014, 07:13:35 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 24, 2014, 04:19:06 amI just saw a video yesterday from CERN demonstrating their OpenGL KiCad renderer.It looked nice and fast, but I have no idea what hardware was in that PC.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 11:46:26 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on May 24, 2014, 07:13:35 amis it for both 2d (pcb) view and 3d view? or for 3d only? opengl doesnt need special harware, if you have decent/normal graphic card, you should be good to go, unless something wrong with the code.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 03:05:23 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on May 25, 2014, 11:46:26 pmThe video didn't show 3D, IIRC.

author: dboyer
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2014, 06:02:49 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on May 22, 2014, 12:52:11 pmI was helping a friend with an LED board that exceeded the required dimensions. The parts off of the end of the board were simple, just the LEDs basically, with the microcontroller and associated parts were within the permissible space. The solution ended up being to place what he could, work out the dimensions of the additional parts, and edit the XML file directly to place them were they needed to go.By the way, Eagle's XML file format >> whatever binary garbage Altium has going on.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2014, 09:34:19 pm
content: Quote from: dboyer on May 29, 2014, 06:02:49 pmNo professional would waste their time doing this ................. but I guess it's fine for amateurs.Like you said, you were using a version of a software package that would not allow you to do it properly.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 30, 2014, 05:35:30 am
content: Wishful thinking. I once did some mods to a board in OrCAD (schematic) / PADS (PCB). I literally had to hand-edit the netlist to make it work. Let alone the general horribleness of PADS.Tim

author: ehughes
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2014, 12:11:25 pm
content: Disclaimer: I own Altium and have brought 20+ seats to my current employer and other clients. I have also used Eagle (which I like) for many years and still recovering from Orcad in the early 2000'sIf the Mentor does not cripple the PCB end of things:http://www.digikey.com/product-highlights/us/en/mentor-graphics-designer-software/4171it will be a huge deal. I am involved both in commercial and open/hobby development. At $300, there will simply be no match.Yes, I have tried KiCad. The Library/Component model is fundamentally broken. The idea that footprints are matched to schematic when transitioning from Sch to PCB is absolutely dumb. The CERN work looks promising BUT the library management aspect will keep it from being a good tool.Eagle is OK. I do like the ULPs/scripting. The manual routing tools just aren't there. For me, it would be the tool I would go back to if I had to but I would really find the $$$ to buy something better.I think a point that is missed is that Eagle is popular for "open "design as it is *STABLE*. There aren't 100 different versions every month. I don't need to compile from source, apply some random patch from someone's repo, etc. Design tools need to be be rock solid. (This is something that Altium is failing at....). The fact that EAGLE is closed source is inconsequential as it is stable.I hope Altium gets its head of out of its rear end..... I doubt it as the board has ZERO members who are technically versed in PCB design and it is very sad as it is a great tool.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2014, 12:51:09 pm
content: Quote from: ehughes on June 05, 2014, 12:11:25 pmThe press release for the Digikey/Mentor deal is for the schematic only.It says "the tool does not include PCB layout functionality"QuoteSo does Dave ......... & me too!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2014, 12:58:09 pm
content: Quote from: ehughes on June 05, 2014, 12:11:25 pmThis is one of the reasons why they hired the hardware group, including myself. They wanted us to give real-world feedback on how the product is used. It's right there on my employment contractUnfortunately it turns out that only meant they wanted feedback if it fitted in with their "vision".

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2014, 01:06:16 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 05, 2014, 12:58:09 pmCome on Dave ............... "Altium" & "vision" are at the opposite end of the spectrum ............. unless you're talking about nano-boards & FPGAs of course.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2014, 01:21:23 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on June 05, 2014, 01:06:16 pmAltium have always been a (one mans) "vision" driven company. They had a few hits, but mostly crazy misses, to the detriment of customers and shareholders.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2014, 02:56:20 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 05, 2014, 01:21:23 pmThat's true of most places, really. It's the few hits that carry you through the hundreds of misses. Most places only get one hit, or zero, and ultimately die. So many failed startups, and so few successes.

author: ludzinc
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 05, 2014, 11:38:33 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 05, 2014, 12:58:09 pmMaybe we all need to send Altium a message. Do as I did:1. Sign up for their beta test programme2. When the sales man calls to set it up, tell him you're only interested in beta testing the low cost home versionMaybe, just maybe, if they get a couple of thousand requests like this, they may get the message....It't either that, or wait until KiCAD gets a not-insane user interface.

author: Icchan
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2014, 05:25:22 pm
content: Quote from: ludzinc on June 05, 2014, 11:38:33 pmKiCad can be a good tool if it has enough developers and money (developers need to eat too). Most open source stuff is hideous to those who just need a tool because the development hobby driven and/or people doing it are grown into the way things work while developing it for themselves. More over, those programs are not made for users in mind. It's free so they don't care if you don't like it: "Just make your own patches or go away." And they're right... because those using the software without lending a hand in developing it are not very useful in the eyes of those who are developing it. If they would charge you for a license, they would have an incentive to make the usability better since they would need to compete with other programs for customers and because they could make more money if they have a good software. But for free? No way!So that's that, one has to start developing KiCad or use another tool that does what he wants. It's all about a choice one makes.That's why donations to the CERN branch are a good way of supporting open source if yo're not willing to start developing yourself. ode and design take time, and it's a finite resource, so have them eat while still making the development by donating.

author: halfwalker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 02:02:47 pm
content: I'm sure everyone has seen this, but just in case ...http://circuitmaker.com/Yeah, <blush> that will teach me to look around a bit before posting. Yeesh."That’s why we’re developing CircuitMaker. CircuitMaker will be a free PCB design tool powered by Altium."

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 03:09:59 am
content: Quote from: halfwalker on September 19, 2014, 02:02:47 pmBeen talked about herehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/free-altium-is-coming/