Which companies license intellectual property for microcontrollers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: ZeroResistance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 10:51:51 am
content: ARM is the leader, however they only do processors. I mean they will only license you the IP of the Cortex.Same goes for MIPS they would prorbably only license the IP of the MIPS processor.But there is more to a microcontrollers likeAHB / APB BusAnalog Peripherals ADC / DACEnhanced Peripherals Counters / UART / SPI / I2C / Capture CompareControllers DMA / Ext. MemorySRAMFlashPLL / OscillatorsWho provides these? I guess companies like ST would be buying these IP's from providers and then integrating it into their STM32 microcontrollers.So how does the whole process work out?Are there any companies out there that sell a "fast to market" IP for the whole microcontroller.

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 06:07:41 pm
content: They roll their own.Although I believe APB/AHB and the corresponding crossbars come from ARM.

author: tsman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 06:12:13 pm
content: Synopsysdo what you're looking for.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 07:03:40 pm
content: Note that while some of those are feasible as more or less process independent netlists, quite a few things there are **highly** process dependent (ADCs, memories, PLL, Osc), and those you would probably wind up getting as part of a technology library for whatever process you were fabricating in from someone like synopsis.The pure logic stuff you probably largely have in house or can trivially license in whatever HDL makes sense.Regards, Dan.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 07:04:07 pm
content: Analogue and mixed signal modules are normally custom designed for a specific application, as they are very process dependent. Any move to a finer geometry will usually require a lot of rework of these things. However, there are a number of people who licence pure digital modules they have developed, and a lot of small players use these. They will often require some adaption, although if they are being plugged into an ARM bus they will probably be available ready to go.Big players, like ST, usually develop everything in house.

author: ZeroResistance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 07:09:00 pm
content: Quote from: tsman on November 28, 2018, 06:12:13 pmAFAIK Synopsys does IP and it has ARC 32 bit processor in its portfolio. However what I'm trying to ask is even after getting the ARC ip from Synopsys there is considerable work involved in designing and implementing an SOC with the processor IP.So what I'm trying to ask is are there IP's available that have processor + peripherals + bus and the required components ready for use for a user to integrate into his design.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 07:46:16 pm
content: Quote from: ZeroResistance on November 28, 2018, 07:09:00 pmIt sounds like you need to approach an established MCU maker, to develop a custom adaption of one of their established MCU families. You will need a big volume application before you can get their attention, but they are very amenable to considering custom designs, especially if it can help them get into a market segment where they are currently weak.

author: mvs
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2018, 09:30:04 pm
content: Quote from: ZeroResistance on November 28, 2018, 07:09:00 pmAll-in-one and ready-for-use MCU IPs are way too inflexible. But you may find processor cores that have a library of compatible component IPs and perhaps also wizard/builder to click your MCU together (like SOPC Builder for NIOS II).

author: ZeroResistance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2018, 05:45:09 am
content: Arm charges $40K for a fast track lincense for the M0, any idea what others like MIPS or ARC charge for the equivalent?Are there any other 32bit processors around worth considering?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2018, 09:14:25 am
content: Quote from: ZeroResistance on November 29, 2018, 05:45:09 amThat $40k is the probably the smallest cost you will have in the whole process, so why worry about the competitors?

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2018, 09:15:23 am
content: Quote from: ZeroResistance on November 29, 2018, 05:45:09 amRISCV ?

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2018, 10:01:16 am
content: Quote from: ZeroResistance on November 28, 2018, 07:09:00 pmSure, lots.http://www.ensilica.com/ip/- 16 & 32-bit RISC CPU IP, AMBA bus, peripherals (both digital and analog) and other stuff. They also offer design services so can do other parts of the design for you, including the physical implementation and manage production.SRAM + Flash would probably come from your foundry or specialised IP provider though. It's standard practice to work with multiple IP suppliers on a project.

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2018, 10:05:58 am
content: Quote from: ZeroResistance on November 29, 2018, 05:45:09 amMIPS + ARC upfront licensing fees are higher, but their processors are better than the M0.However, $40k is not all you will pay with ARM. You'll pay a high royalty on top of that. So you need to look at the total cost over expected volumes. Other CPUs (like EnSilica's) will probably work out cheaper. Also, you need to consider the cost of s/w development tools on top. Some have free options, others don't.

author: ZeroResistance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2018, 12:14:38 pm
content: Quote from: coppiceWhat you say is probably true, but I want to know as a comparision, fact being ARM has been a leader in the IP sector long enough so needed to know the competitors pricing.Quote from: srceThis is amazing, can you toss up a few more name's, just for comparison. Also have you tried their offerings.Quote from: mikeselectricstuffHaven't done much research on that one so don't know what to expect, Same probably goes for Ensilica's offerings.I would have preferred to stick to one of the popular ones floating around at the moment, but things can still change.

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2018, 12:51:54 pm
content: Quote from: ZeroResistance on November 29, 2018, 12:14:38 pmEnSilica are in the UK, so probably convenient for you, assuming your flag is correct. I know them quite wellCadence & Synopsys both have their own CPUs, associated IP and offer design services in the UK, but will be significantly more expensive. (Of course, IC design isn't cheap wherever you go)There are lots of other IP providers + design services companies. But not so many who do everything.

author: ZeroResistance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2018, 05:23:10 pm
content: Quote from: srce on November 29, 2018, 12:51:54 pmAny idea how much would the cost be the one time cost for the IP and then do they operate on a model similar to ARM I mean a royalty based model?

author: srce
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2018, 05:37:44 pm
content: Quote from: ZeroResistance on November 29, 2018, 05:23:10 pmWhat IP? Just the CPU, bus + digital peripherals or everything in your original post? There's a big difference. (Particularly if you want analog IP as it will most likely need to be customized and ported to your specific process). You really need a more specific set of requirements.Most smaller vendors will offer a choice between royalty based or royalty free, with the latter having a higher upfront fee.

author: ZeroResistance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2018, 01:21:51 pm
content: Quote from: srce on November 29, 2018, 05:37:44 pmApologies, I should have been more specific. It would be good to know about both1. CPU only2. CPU and everything else as listed above

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2018, 03:41:47 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 29, 2018, 09:15:23 amSiFive has a range of RISC-V processor architectures covering approximately the same territory as Cortex M0 to A7/A55. The (currently) three different microarchitectures are all available in both 32 and 64 bit versions, with and without MMU for Linux (etc), with and without floating point.You can license a core to include on your own chip, or SiFive can build chips for you.You can customise cores with various options here:https://www.sifive.com/core-designerComing soon, you'll be able to integrate a core or cores with a wide range of peripherals (both analogue and digital) to design a complete custom SoC yourself, online:https://www.sifive.com/chip-designer(until then, SiFive engineers can do this for you)IP from a number of partners is available. Use of IP for prototype chips (on shuttle runs) is free. Per-chip license charges for IP applies for volume production.https://www.sifive.com/designshare

author: ZeroResistance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2018, 06:54:24 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on November 30, 2018, 03:41:47 pm1. When would chip designer be released?2. How long does it take for shuttle runs?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2018, 07:57:25 pm
content: Quote from: ZeroResistance on November 30, 2018, 06:54:24 pm2 depends who is putting the shuttle mask set together, and how rapidly they can accumulate enough designs. Obviously the time to go through the fab is no different from any other wafers on the same process.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 01, 2018, 01:14:48 am
content: Quote from: ZeroResistance on November 30, 2018, 06:54:24 pmA release date for chip designer has not been announced.It's essentially done and has been used to successfully replicate and tape out both the FE310 (320 MHz 32 bit microcontroller found in the HiFive1) and FU540 (1.5 GHz 4 + 1 core 64 bit Linux-capable found in the HiFive Unleashed) that were originally hand designed.It's important to be reasonably sure that every design that the software allows a user to make will actually work :-)As for shuttle runs ... SiFive goes directly to TSMC. There isn't any 3rd party accumulating things for a shuttle run. SiFive's Chip Designer automation feeds directly into TSMC's OIP VDE (Open Innovation Platform Virtual Design Environment).Note that when TSMC announced this workflow in October, they chose to include quotes from Cadence, Synopsys, MIcrosoft, Arm, and SiFive:http://www.tsmc.com/tsmcdotcom/PRListingNewsAction.do?action=detail&language=E&newsid=THGOANTHTH

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2018, 03:45:07 am
content: Photo from a presentation at the RISC-V Summit today.

author: ZeroResistance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2018, 11:30:53 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 05, 2018, 03:45:07 amThanks for the updates, so when you talk about SiFive Chip Designer does it do similar things like Cadence Virtuoso and other chip design tools?

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2018, 11:50:19 am
content: Very high level. You only pick what components you want: CPU cores, IP blocks. It's the system's/SiFive's responsibility to make sure it works. The user does nothing about layout, nothing about electrical characteristics. More like some of the high level drag-and-drop FPGA tools, except it's for SoCs.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 06, 2018, 12:18:58 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on November 30, 2018, 03:41:47 pmAhhh .. and the site is currently slashdotted.Or, "Linused"

author: ZeroResistance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 07, 2018, 03:45:02 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on December 05, 2018, 11:50:19 amOk! so as I understand it SiFive's Chip designer will also help in assembling the IP blocks for Analog peripherals like ADC / DAC? apart from the regular uC peripherals like counters/timers, capture/compare, DMA etc.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 08, 2018, 01:41:55 am
content: Quote from: ZeroResistance on December 07, 2018, 03:45:02 pmYes, Chip Designer includes analogue/mixed signal IP blocks from several partners, including but not limited to SiFive acquisition Open-Silicon.