Software to panelize PCB - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: luiHS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2018, 02:42:51 pm
content: Hi.I am looking for tools to be able to panelize my PCB designs before sending the Gerber to the manufacturer to make the panelized PCB boards. Some manufacturers offer this service, but I prefer to do it by myself, to have total control and decide how to do it.I work with Eagle, although I can also use Altium. Neither of them offers a professional solution for paneling PCBs, I mean an assisted system for creating PCB panels with "V-cut" or "Mouse bites" separators, mainly for PCBs with irregular or round shapes.I have, for some time now, theCAM350andBlueprinttools from the DownStream manufacturer, but I still did not have time to test them. I've seen some videos on YouTube, but I still do not know which of the two is used to panelize, using the Gerber I've already created from Eagle.What experiences do you have, and what programs would you recommend to be able to panelize PCB's? I understand that this is done from the Gerber that I have created with programs like Eagle, Altium, Kicad, etc ...Bes Regards.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2018, 03:07:25 pm
content: Quote from: luiHS on July 06, 2018, 02:42:51 pmWe V-groove quite large panels regularly using both Altium & DipTrace. Just set the spacing between each individual circuit to 0.0mm when V-grooving.I've not had any trouble using either program.

author: In Vacuo Veritas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2018, 03:34:55 pm
content: Total control of what? Your manufacturer will simply remove your panelization, correct the master artwork for his manufacturing process, and panelize THAT.Why do so many people insist on doing things they don't need to? You don't have "total control" over the process anyways. This attitude is more common among beginners and amateurs. Eagle and total control??? LOL!!!Just make a drawing with the panel size, assembly rails, space between panels, breakoff type, andlet the manufacturer do his job.They might actually know what they are doing.Why do you care about CAM350? Test what? Are you manufacturing the boards? No? So who cares?

author: luiHS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2018, 05:06:42 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on July 06, 2018, 03:07:25 pmFor rectangular PCB there is no problem to add V-Cut, but for PCBs of irregular or round shapes, for that it is necessary to use mouse-bites, and it is not so easy to do it manually.I'll try CAM350 or Blueprint, I saw some videos that did it quite easily, I just have to try it.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 06, 2018, 05:23:18 pm
content: Quote from: In Vacuo Veritas on July 06, 2018, 03:34:55 pmNot true at all. Proven by having small differences on PCBs in the panel. They usually make what you uploaded. There are valid reasons to penalize yourself. Like you want some edges to be smooth and with higher precision (routing), connectors hanging over PCB area, placing mousebites away from MLCC. I have several designs which will suck to produce, test, depanelize if not doing panelizing yourself.

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2018, 05:42:27 pm
content: I have never done a better job at panelizing than the various fab houses I have used. Even when I think they did something dumb, it usually turns out it was better than I thought.

author: D-Jack
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2018, 05:50:35 pm
content: What's the problem with Altium? They have a very good panelization feature, and you can tweak it too. Now if you already have a design done and you want to panelize on a gerber level, that would complicate matters

author: luiHS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2018, 05:57:39 pm
content: Quote from: D-Jack on July 06, 2018, 05:50:35 pmWith Altium can you add mouse-bites to round or irregularly shaped PCB boards in an automated way?I can do it manually in Eagle, but what I'm looking for is a tool that does it automatically, as CAM350 or Blueprint can do.Copy and paste the same PCB several times in a new BRD file, I can do it in Eagle, it's simple. The inconvenience is having to manually add the mouse-bites, and even the V-Cut, although the latter are simpler. I want prepare my own PCB panels to assemble in my Neoden4 pick and place.In this video, from minute 2:45 you can see how to add the mouse bites to an irregularly shaped PCB, with Blueprint, very easy and fast.And this video also with Blueprint to panelize using mouse-bites

author: In Vacuo Veritas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2018, 06:22:59 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 06, 2018, 05:23:18 pmHuh? Who made the small differences? The manufacturer? Then he's tweaking each panel for where it is on the manufacturing panel, "throwing power", etc...Quote from: luiHS on July 06, 2018, 05:57:39 pmJiminy crickets, why so complicated? You simply put an X where you want your tab and put it as a detail on the drawing.Then in your fabrication notes you write "manufacturer to supply panelized data" so you can send the panel to your contract manufacturer.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 06, 2018, 06:25:47 pm
content: Quote from: In Vacuo Veritas on July 06, 2018, 06:22:59 pmTiny differences in silkscreen in original file.

author: Gary.M
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2018, 09:59:41 pm
content: Why are you so rude and condescending in your posts?Quote from: In Vacuo Veritas lionk=topic=120992.msg1653914#msg1653914 date=1530901379

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2018, 10:12:12 pm
content: Quote from: luiHS on July 06, 2018, 02:42:51 pmI use Protel 99 to do this. I let my board house do the panelizing, then they send me back the X and Y stepover increments. I then can panelize the single boards to make the solder stencils. But, you could as easily do this with the Protel 99 cut and paste array function. I'm sure Altium Designer has this same function.Jon

author: luiHS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2018, 10:20:33 am
content: The simple system of copying and pasting the same PCB in Eagle to create a panel of PCB, I know it, is very easy, then add V-cut lines. What I see more complex is for PCB of irregular or round shapes with the use of mouse-bites. I have some round PCB, that need panelize.The problem is that my current PCB manufacturer (JLCPCB) does not do panelize for PCBs in irregular or round shapes. It can be that ALLPCB does it, I'm going to ask them.If I order a panelized board and the stencil, I need the manufacturer provide to me the panelized Gerber files, so I can order the same PCB again to use it with the same stencil and assemble it in my Neoden4 Pick and Place. Each time I order the same panelized PCB, can not to be different, or I will must to order again the stencil and reprogram my Pick and Place machine to assemble it.This is the reply of JLCPCB on panelized PCB:"Hello Sir ,Sorry , panel by JLCPCB don't support irregular board or different designs on one panel .We just make only one same board panelized .Otherwise you need to do by yourselfThanksNicole"

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2018, 11:49:22 am
content: Quote from: luiHS on July 07, 2018, 10:20:33 amContact PCBWAY. They will do this for you.Use one of your mechanical layers to show the router bit cutting that you desire. If you panelise yourself, leave 3mm between the board edges which leaves room for the router bit.Advise PCBWAY which mechanical layer shows the board outline.You could just supply the Gerbers for a single board & ask PCBWAY to panelise for you. Ask PCBWAY to supply the paste screen to suit.Bob runs a thread on here re PCB board shops. He is well respected. You can find his price comparison atwww.pcbshopper.comPCBWAY will charge you more than JLCPCB, however their solder masks are much more durable which is important for any PCB re-work.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2018, 12:06:59 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on July 07, 2018, 11:49:22 amCannot agree with this. PCBway solder resist is crap IME, certainly not durable. Sometimes comes with rat bites around the pads right out the factory. I ordered from JLCPCB only once and did not notice anything worse than best PCBs that PCBway produced.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 07, 2018, 01:51:04 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on July 07, 2018, 12:06:59 pmEveryone to their own. We have received about 8,000 boards from PCBWAY over the past 4 years & roughly 12,000 from JLCPCB.We only notice a difference in the quality of the solder mask when repairing/reworking boards.PCBWAY are about 35% more expensive, but our experience shows the solder mask has been of higher quality (it does not lift when reworking).Some people have mentioned that PCBWAY sub out their board manufacturing to third parties. I don't know if this is true.As I said above, YMMV.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 07, 2018, 01:56:27 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on July 07, 2018, 01:51:04 pmPCBway (JDBpcb) IMO is too big to outsource. FWIW both JLCpcb and PCBway produce relatively low end low quality PCBs. There are better options at similar price. Not as fast, though.

author: luiHS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2018, 08:54:54 am
content: Finally I am working with CAM350, and it is really very good and easy to configure. I can make panelized PCBs with mouse bites or V-Score, It is a very versatile product with many options.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2018, 09:17:28 am
content: I certainly panelise my pcbs, so that everything is set up to be optimal for my PNP line.. Theres stuff that a board house could never know about how my line is set up. Thats why i send them a fully panelised set of Gerbers..THeres panel fids were i need them. Tooling strips, holes to suit my setup, notches were i will have pins for steciling.. Bad PCB fids..Like the suggestion above, i do modify the silk screen so there is a panel ID on each board. If there are repeated errors coming from the same board on a panel i can go and find it.Theres very good reasons for doign yoru own panelisation. If you are getting someone else to do the assembly then you shoudl be talking with them. Anything you can do to make there job easier will be good for you.I use a combination of Tab routing and V-scoring. to try to eliminate as many mouse bites as i can. ( evil! ).. Routing does give you a nice edges..

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2018, 10:54:50 am
content: Quote from: luiHS on July 12, 2018, 08:54:54 amIn your example panel above, if you rotate both the RHS boards by 180 degrees, you might be able use a smaller panel, thereby saving money.

author: julianhigginson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2018, 12:39:06 pm
content: I second that panelisation should happen at the instruction of the assembler. this is a standard clause in my PCB fab doc.they know what their assembly process is and what their machines work best with, and what will make my boards the best they can be in their process, and so the PCB fabrication needs to support that.

author: luiHS
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2018, 04:34:30 pm
content: Quote from: DerekG on July 12, 2018, 10:54:50 amIt's just a test, to learn how to use CAM350, it's not a definitive panel. I still have to look at a lot of details, such as adding fiducials, vents, holes in the corners, or adding V-Scores.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2018, 08:00:12 pm
content: Quote from: julianhigginson on July 12, 2018, 12:39:06 pmAbsolutely. One of the challenges if you are using a fab House is that sometimes it’s hard to get the info you need though

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2018, 09:33:34 pm
content: Quote from: mrpackethead on July 12, 2018, 08:00:12 pmWhen I first discovered the concept of panelization, I thought I should do myself. I called the 2-3 houses I was ordering from at the time asking for specs. They all but laughed at me in the process of saying 'No!'I gave up at that moment, asked them to do it. I have never had a problem or delay. Win.

author: DerekG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2018, 11:29:43 pm
content: Quote from: rx8pilot on July 12, 2018, 09:33:34 pmWe regularly panelise for V-grooving. No hassles with either of the pcb board shops we use.However, if you want the boards specially routed out, then just draw the exact shape you want on a mechanical layer & point the board shop to that. Like you say, they will sort it out from there.

author: mrpackethead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 03:03:34 am
content: This is one of those things when the answer is depends

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 13, 2018, 02:31:28 pm
content: A lot of confusion in this recurring discussion is that we are usually talking about several possibly very different (but sometimes overlapping) concepts when using the term "panelization".If you state to your PCB fab that you want to do complete panelization "yourself" so that you are in "total control", you'll be naturally be laughed at, because this isalwaysan internal PCB manufacturing process, which involves things like:1) The panel is always a fixed size, and massively large, and you don't know what size the manufacturer is using2) The panel often combines different customers3) The panel includes specific patterns for etch process uniformity4) The panel includes specific Quality Control test patterns5) The panel needs manufacturer-specific fiducials, alignment peg holes, etc.And, when someone asks about panelizing "by themselves", people start replying assuming they want to do this.Usually, the question is not about this part to begin with.There are panels, and then there are panels. Totally different kind of panels: the higher level unit, which only consists of this single customers design(s) repeated over and over again, driven by typically two constraints:1) Assembly (P&P, reflow and/or wave solder), requiring specific fiducials, peg holes, etc.2) Electrical or functional testing at panel level, possibly including JTAG chains, even mass programming the programmable devices, or calibrating the units before separation from panel.For 1), the customer very often does the panelization themselves, often communicating with the P&P house - not the PCB fab. Only in very simple cases this can be totally left for the board house to decide. If the PCB fab and assembly fab is the same company, this may be possible; it's still often done by the original designer. Which is why the PCB tools have panelization options.For 2), the customer always does the panelization. You route the signals between the panels! You decide how to place the testpoints.It is worth noting that for a pure PCB manufacturer, this kind of "panel" is like any single design. The terminology varies:1) Some don't call them panels, and talking about panels is causing confusion, since panel is a different concept for a PCB manufacturer,2) Some call them panels,3) Some look at your design files, and if it looks like you have repeated same or similar enough parts multiple times, they charge you extra just because they can.