Are we facing a component sourcing catastrophe ? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: max_torque
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:14:03 pm
content: Increasingly i find "out of stock" as the status of even pretty basic components at the usual suppliers (Farnell, Mouser, Digikey etc etc) and the lead times being quoted are getting ridiculous. For example, if you want a certain brand 100nf 0603 X7R cap, you'll have to wait until December (11 months lead time)I know that electronics makes the world go round, but wow, it's getting silly, and it's happening more and more ime. I guess it's a case of demand outstripping supply, and under those conditions, the big players get the spoils (ie if Dell or Keysight need a component, they are going to be able to jump the queue in front of us mere mortals....Right now, i'd (practically) kill for a couple of ADuM5211 isolators, but guess what, as far as i can tell, they don't exisit.........

author: kony
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:28:21 pm
content: Noticed the same, 100nF X7R caps in 0603 are unobtanium on TME and Mouser, including 82n and 120n on TME. Quite of WTF moment for something this widely used to go out of stock.I digged for explanation and the capacitors supply shortages were covered even half year ago (with up to 50 weeks lead times mentioned), reasoned by too low investments into new production equipment due to market saturation in mobile devices segment.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 02:32:40 pm
content: I hear Murata are pulling out of the 0603 cap market.

author: dmills
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 05:36:37 pm
content: AD seem to be having some 'issues', you try getting ADV7511 HDMI transmitters at the moment!Painful it is when you need to ship a couple of hundred units with that part.Rumour is they changed the fabs used for a pile of stuff and this did not go as smoothly as expected.Regards, Dan.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 05:39:44 pm
content: RS is like that here in the U.K. sometimes I will back order some parts with a two week lead and I get a call from them saying that the lead time is suddenly one year plus. This is on jelly bean parts.Ended up buying part reels on eBay for a couple of parts for development.Also I’ve noticed a long lead between parts being announced and being available in any reasonable quantity. I wanted a couple of SiLabs clock generators released a year ago and there are only single digit quantities available.I have wondered if people are stockpiling some parts to make sure manufacturing back orders can be fulfilled.

author: hans
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 07:23:53 pm
content: Maybe a benefit for using "multicomp" from Farnell after all?Well, of course, you won't spec a multicomp part into a BOM as there is no 2nd source supplier. Additionally they are most often just the most jellybean parts you can think of with no differentiating specs in their datasheets, so you may as well put "100nF 0603 cap" in your BOM.

author: bd139
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 07:36:23 pm
content: Multicomp is an option. Most of it is second tier brands that they relabel anyway, for example most of the resistors are sourced from Royal Ohm.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 08:09:42 pm
content: I think I might have to buy Chinese manufactured parts from Hong Kong suppliers, they don't seem to be facing the same shortage issues.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 08:49:40 pm
content: I have word from a corporate sourcing department that ceramic cap lead times are rising (>26 weeks).Tim

author: langwadt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 09:30:12 pm
content: Quote from: max_torque on January 28, 2018, 02:14:03 pmif you are feeling lucky,https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/192132192868

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 09:44:26 pm
content: Quote from: dmills on January 28, 2018, 05:36:37 pmhttps://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/analog-devices-inc/ADV7511KSTZ-P/ADV7511KSTZ-P-ND/2261221?utm_campaign=buynow&utm_medium=aggregator&WT.z_cid=ref_findchips_standard&utm_source=findchipshttps://www.verical.com/pd/analog-devices-misc-multimedia-ADV7511KSTZ-248397?utm_campaign=verical_findchips_2018&utm_medium=aggregator&utm_source=findchips&utm_content=inv_listing

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 10:40:53 pm
content: probably the reason is that the manufacturers are not making low capacity 0603 caps because they're focusing on the sizes and values with higher demand. honestly who is using those 100nF 0603 caps apart from simpler low volume designs and hobbyists ? higher values in 0603 are not a problem and 0402 100nF caps are not a problem either.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 10:54:03 pm
content: Digikey have a few million 100nf 0603 in stock. Remember that Digikey don't speak nanofarads so you have to search for 0.1uf

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 10:58:22 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on January 28, 2018, 10:40:53 pmWhat kind of stupid assumption that is? You think that 100nF caps are not used in high volume production and that they are only used by hobbyists?

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 11:04:19 pm
content: Quote from: Yansi on January 28, 2018, 10:58:22 pmWhen I examine commercial products these days they are using components so small you need a microscope to see them. Many of them are not much bigger than a spec of dust. So I think rob77 is saying that the relatively large 0603 is becoming obsolete in commercial designs.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 11:08:18 pm
content: Are mobile phones the only commercial thing made then?

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 11:11:01 pm
content: Quote from: Yansi on January 28, 2018, 10:58:22 pmkeep your facepalm for your very reaction dudei said 0603 sized 100nF are not used... open any RECENT piece of mass produced electronics and you will see that 0402 and 0201 are the prevalent sizes.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 11:18:42 pm
content: I do not see any kind of significant lack of 0603 components in mass produced hardware. I see 0402 as often, as 0603. And I work in a place where we get hands on some pretty recent mass produced hardware across multiple vendors and target areas.If you'd say that 0805 is lacking use today, I wouldn't say a thing, but I insist upon that your assumption is just bullshit in terms of explanation why there is currently deficit of 100nF caps. This just won't stand.//EDIT: Fixed typo.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 28, 2018, 11:20:36 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on January 28, 2018, 11:11:01 pmOpen anything that is not super tiny and portable, built with cheap PCB. Say TV or monitor PSU with single layer phenolic board where components are glued down and wave soldered. Good luck with 0402 and 0201 on that. EDIT: just peeked inside through the grill into my Denon receiver I bought last year, it's mostly 0603 there.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 12:00:21 am
content: Unless someone here wants to declare that they are an engineer that is working on so-and-so product which is in current millions-scale commercial production,We can safely ignore all hear-say from everyone else, period.Mmmmkay?(Note: this is why I qualified my earlier statement regarding lead times. I am not currently working on anything so large scale, but the information came from a department which does. It's second-degree semi-hear-say, if you like. Take that as what you will.)Tim

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 12:03:20 am
content: Quote from: wraper on January 28, 2018, 11:20:36 pmQuote from: Yansi on January 28, 2018, 11:18:42 pmonce again and slowly... i said 100nF 0603 are not used... i'm not saying 0603 capacitors are not used anymore. everyone is saving PCB area so they go smaller whenever possible. in smartphones, tablets and laptops you won't find many 0603 components and if there are some, then they're north of 1 microfarad... i'm saying the production follows the demand (where the money is) and there is low demand for low capacity in big footprint... if it was different then there would be no shortage of 0603 100nF caps.

author: Yansi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 12:23:47 am
content: Again asking: Laptops, tablets and phones is all you think is manufactured today? Repeated bullshit does not become truth if it is repeated.If there is shortage in supply, then the production obviously does not track the demand, mr. cpt. obvious.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 12:27:08 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on January 29, 2018, 12:03:20 amI gave examples where capacitance is irrelevant. Then look also on voltage ratings. 100n 0402 with 50V rating is already stretching the limits of technology. Such cap will drop 30-50% of it's capacitance when operated at half of it's rated voltage. Not to say there will be barely any capacitance left at full rated voltage.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 12:30:44 am
content: Quote from: max_torque on January 28, 2018, 02:14:03 pmWhy would you want a certain brand of a jellybean part, unless your stock control system is too inflexible to deal with alternate sources?There are literally millions of equivalent parts in stock at Mouser and Digkey.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 12:59:54 am
content: Quote from: wraper on January 29, 2018, 12:27:08 amvast majority of the stuff produced is 12V max nowadays, decoupling with the mentioned 100nF (along with 1 to 10uF) is done on low voltage rails upto 5V max.capacitance drop is a property of X7R or X5R dielectric, and it's the same for ALL MLCC caps with that dielectric regardless of the size.all the stuff i repaired recently (phones, tablets, laptops) had 0402 or 0201 decoupling caps and that's stuff at least 2-3 years old.

author: ANTALIFE
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 01:02:26 am
content: Like Mike said, a quick search on DigiKey brings up heaps of 100nF 50V X7R 0603 ?_?https://goo.gl/wP7iL5

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 01:08:34 am
content: High density reflow boards working at higher frequencies and with smaller pin pitches will demand smaller caps both in geometry and value, there is no point in using 0603, too big for HF decoupling and too small for bulk storage. Use 0402 or 0201 for HF decoupling and larger MLCCs for bulk storage.Wave soldered 0603 works very well but high volume wave soldered is small compared to high volume reflow. Not surprised that Murata are dropping their 0603 line.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 01:09:16 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on January 29, 2018, 12:59:54 amLook no further than backlight in your TV. Not to say PSUs have not been cancelled yet.QuoteYou've already been told there is a crapton of stuff beyond phones, tablets and laptops. BTW check voltage on laptop charger input

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 01:12:43 am
content: Quote from: Yansi on January 28, 2018, 10:58:22 pmI think we'll see 0603 (US) becoming less common over the next few years. 0402 is a lot smaller, better for RF bypassing (i.e., much higher SRF), and not that much harder to handle by either machines or human hands.As logic and supply voltages go down, parts like 6.3V 0402 100 nF caps that wouldn't have been commonly used a few years ago are only going to get more popular. The voltage coefficient of a 6.3V X7R cap renders it useless at 5V, but fine at 1.8V.Meanwhile, if I need a larger MLCC in the > 100 nF range, it's usually no problem to skip 0603 and go straight to 0805.TL,DR: if you're using a lot of 0603s, switch to 0402 and start thinking about how you're going to deal with 0201.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 01:23:04 am
content: Quote from: wraper on January 29, 2018, 01:09:16 amyou and yansi must be fickbuddies or something

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 01:24:08 am
content: @KE5FX that's what I was saying, from an RF decoupling point of view the smaller the better and as you quite rightly pointed out core voltages are dropping so the smaller X7R parts will perform well. For bulk storage use bigger sizes and less of them. Wave soldered is small beans and doesn't count.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 02:29:54 am
content: Quote from: max_torque on January 28, 2018, 02:14:03 pmYes, this is getting quite frustrating in the US, also. Every time an order comes in, I sweat that one or more parts will become unavailable.I just had this with an inductor used in the power supply of a product I make. I checked all US distributors I know of, and none had any stock.Arrow had stock in the Netherlands, I think, and got it to me fairly quickly. With basic SMT passives, there are tons of alternates, but for morespecialized parts, it can be a challenge. Also, Panasonic made a lot of niche parts that have been discontinued, requiring board redesign.Jon

author: max_torque
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 08:13:11 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on January 29, 2018, 12:30:44 amIt's got nothing to do with my stock system and everything to do with the fact the device is MIL certified with the existing components. Change anything and it's expensive re-cert time! (and no, i don't make the rules, my customer does, so if he says "re-cert to prove the replacement part is identical" then we re-cert...... )

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 08:25:16 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on January 28, 2018, 02:38:36 pmI just pulled ADuM from a project in doing and switched to The TI ISOW78xx for this reason.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 09:35:10 pm
content: This story has replayed with variations quite a few times over the last few decades. An economic slowdown occurs, suppliers pull back. Then the economy starts growing again and suppliers struggle to keep up.It is a crisis for a while, but every time prior the crisis has dissipated after painful period. And everyone forgets what happened last time in preparation for repeating.

author: Alex Eisenhut
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 29, 2018, 11:57:17 pm
content: Broadcom acquired Avago and promptly obsoleted 22 pages worth of part numbers.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 01:08:05 am
content: Quote from: KE5FX on January 29, 2018, 01:12:43 amVoltage coefficient doesn't always work that way. A 6.3V cap could only lose 10% of it's capacity at 5V and a 16V part with the same dimensions and dielectrics could lose more. You really need to look at individual part numbers and curves to investigate it. Especially with the >1uF caps.Though the 100nF usually means "whatever, let's have a cap here".And anyone interested, I got quotes for Vishay yelly bean TVS diodes with 99 weeks.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 30, 2018, 09:49:26 am
content: I just finished working on a complicated PCBA design with about 250 separate line items (ie: different part numbers) on it. A mix of buck/boost/isolated DC-DC converters, ASICs, CPU, analogue, digital and RF. For prototyping, all parts were off the shelf from the usual suspects - Digikey etc or the normal distributors. The only problem our procurement people had was with one part that just had an EOL warning. All in all, no great problems.So I don't think we are facing a component sourcing catastrophe. Certainly nothing worse than the 2008 disaster when Atmel made their QTouch switches end-of-life with almost no warning (I heard it was due to the endless strikes at the Atmel plant in Rousset, France). Atmel was clearly out of control for this and other reasons like ignoring customers' emails. They caused me to revise a design that had an array of adaptive touch switches, using a Microchip PIC16F1947 and having to write a a few thousand lines embedded code. It delayed the project and caused great stress. Since then, I have avoided using Atmel chips where possible. Now that Microchip owns Atmel, things can only get better, one would hope.