Average car contains 100 million lines of code, The State of Autosoftware - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 10:28:19 pm
content: Well, a 2015 study showed that 74% of the cost of a car was electronics.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 10:49:55 pm
content: What could go wrong?

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 10:57:22 pm
content: Deliberately wrong, like BMW color changing car at 1:15. sorta neat but i would not pay for it.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 10:59:10 pm
content: Don't worry, you probably don't have the cash to anyway.

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 11:02:50 pm
content: Cash? you mean CBDC's!Anyho, i dont want a BMW, to much plastic crap inside the engine im told by car techs.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 24, 2023, 11:15:32 pm
content: Quote from: MT on January 24, 2023, 11:02:50 pmAh yes, sorry. Still having a hard time with central banks working on shoving that crap up our asses.Quote from: MT on January 24, 2023, 11:02:50 pmWell, BMW used to know how to make engines.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 12:20:12 am
content: Reminds me of Toyota and the unintended vehicle acceleration.https://www.edn.com/toyotas-killer-firmware-bad-design-and-its-consequences/QuoteTalking of which I noticed some progress on triggering the fault on Wikipedia:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_accelerationQuote

author: ve1nhb
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 04:11:13 am
content: You have never taken a Cobol programming course. Million lines of code that is easy.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 05:02:25 am
content: Toyota still has garbage firmware in their cars. One acquaintance had her RAV throttle runaway and once my vehicle took off in reverse while backing up. That will wake a person up.They haven't fixed the problems it seems. Their transmission control TCM is also a buggy piece of shit, constantly making bad learns on shift patterns and I have to disconnect the battery to erase them. It's like they have kids writing their software. I like the factory service bulletin about the airbags mysteriously deploying for no reason "uh let Mr. Toyota know it happened"Modern ECU's have a lot of code dedicated to actually modelling many of the systems, this is the only way to get precise fuel metering to meet emissions. Model-based control is the norm.Mathematical models of the catalytic converter (temperature), O2 sensor, valve temperature, EGR flow etc are all in the firmware nowadays. It's very sophisticated and takes up code space.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 05:51:36 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on January 25, 2023, 05:02:25 amDefinitely. This complexity makes it all the more likely to have faults.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 06:26:30 am
content: And it is only getting worse.The infotainment systems in cars are increasingly becoming thrown together crap. Pretty common these days that the infotainment system bugs out and you need to fiddle with it to get it back working. In some instances i found i actually needed to park and turn the car off in order to restart it and get it working again.On top of that they are implementing features in unsesible backwards ways. For example my Volvo from 2016 has a dedicated heated seats button that cycles an icon on the screen trough 3 heat levels. The button works even before the infotainment is even booted (so it is only there for display) and it remembers the last setting after the car is turned off. In fact it is so smart that if you leave it on a heat level of 1, the next time you get into a cold car it applies heat level 3 for a minute or two to get it up to temp quickly before going back down to the heat level of 1 and staying there. Nicely implemented feature that works like magic without having to think about it, just set and forget.Move forwards to the 2021 model year Volvos. In comes the giant touchscreen and no buttons. Lets see how they implemented heated seats after all this technological progress. First of all there is no actual button for heated seats, you press the heated seat icon on it. Nothing wrong with that (you can only have so many hardware buttons anyway), however the implementation... ho boy. First of all the setting is no longer remembered, heated seats are off every time you start the car. Then if you want heating setting 1 right off the bat you have to press 3 times to get level 3 then level 2 then level 1 (also normal way of doing it), however if you press too quickly it will miss presses, registering only 2 of the 3 presses. Then if you have a heated steering wheel that heated seat button actually opens up a tiny menu where you press the seat icon for seats and then another icon for the steering wheel. Making it a total of like 3 to 7 presses on a touchscreen to set it up every time you start the car. This is just one example of many features that are implemented completely wrong.Sometimes i feel like the software developers who create these infotainment systems have never owned a car.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 07:39:54 am
content: A lot of developers and managers think it is just like with money. The more you have of it the better it is.But they do forget about test ability and readability. In most of these cases the statement less is more is certainly true.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 07:47:03 am
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on January 25, 2023, 07:39:54 amMaybe I’m too charitable, but I think most developersdocare about those things, but with the time pressure they’re usually on, those things get neglected. And I don’t think most workplaces really actively encourage good coding practices. They’ve either jumped on the “agile” bandwagon (lowercase in quotes “agile”, i.e. sloppy free for all, not actual Agile), or they simply prioritize “finish it yesterday!” over disciplined methodology.In contrast, I think a great many managers don’t understand the value in disciplined software development methodologies and practices. They see the time cost of doing them, and don’t appreciate the risks they take on with rushed coding.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 07:52:52 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on January 25, 2023, 05:02:25 amI read many stories and the saddest one I remember reading was this young Chinese man who had a 1996 Corolla (not thought to be linked to the sudden acceleration of the other Toyota at the time) but it one day got out of control and and killed some people. I think he protested but they jailed him and when it proven it wasn't his fault the prosecutors still wanted him to admit fault or something like that in a deal he turned down.Found it but not what I thought:https://www.thegilbertlawgroup.com/blog/2015/january/man-sent-to-prison-over-toyota-sudden-accelerati/Quote**So basically the prosecutors or the people they had sent out to do the test were lying.*The victims family supported a new trial seeing how other 1996 Camry's were reported to have the same issue. The County Attorney expressed her sympathy but opposed a new trial that the victims supported and the accused. They examined the car and came up with the same conclusion, brakes and throttle working... driver error. The accused attorneys hired their own expert who found evidence that the throttle was open and the brakes were pressed at the same time at the point of the accident. So isn't that like opposite of evidence provided to the prosecutor?It sounds to me like the prosecutors but more to do with the attorney/judge? seemed biased and hellbent for some reason opposing a new trial and wanting him to admit it was his fault despite the evidence from other owners. It was either his fault or not and evidence show it wasn't and other people coming forward on the issue. So they try to make him an offer. Now why would they do that if they genuinely believed he was guilty? They didn't offer him a plea deal before the others came forward.And their behaviour. I wonder why they behaved like that? Is it because he is of Chinese origin and they just happen to be racist and let it influence their decision making? or got taken in and bribed over by Toyota?

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 07:59:09 am
content: As for infotainment systems taking over the cockpit: I think it’s gotten to the point where we’re going to need to legally mandate physical controls. It’s absolute lunacy to put essential controls onto a touchscreen. IMHO, nothing the driver needs to control during driving should be on the touchscreen.The other thing we need to maybe do more with is voice control. We’ve gotten that reliable enough that it works very reliably for simple tasks (“hey siri set a timer for 15 minutes”) and quite well for a lot of more complex tasks (“hey siri schedule lunch with mom on Tuesday at 1pm”). I know many cars now let you do things like control air conditioning.The problem is that voice control needs to be done really well (such as allowing a wide vocabulary for the same things), but above all, that good voice recognition and natural language processing aren’t available for most languages. It’s excellent in the major dialects of “key” languages, but tapers off quickly for less popular languages and dialects. But for voice control to substitute physical controls, it needs to work reliably in every language any driver is going to use. And since that ain’t gonna happen any time soon, physical controls it is!

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 08:11:32 am
content: Quote from: tooki on January 25, 2023, 07:47:03 amSure time pressure is a thing, and might bring sloppy programming, but I believe it to be a state of mind. The bigger the better.Only viewed the first bit of the interview, and the moment they mentioned high performance computers and 5G/6G data links to improve on vehicle behavior I left.We are talking about a car, with very well defined modes of operation, and they worked well without all this electronics in them. Sure there are benefits coming with the electronics, but you don't need more lines of code then a very big well know OS.The software world going to hell due to these practices can be seen all around. Simple functionality failing to be implemented correctly and not fully tested. As an example, I wanted to close a bank account. The online route, that took a bit to find, told me that there was still money in the account and it needed to be less then 10 euros to be able to continue. It provided a button to transfer the money, and also told to leave some money for possible costs. So I reduced the amount to 7,17 euros, transferring a nice round amount of money, and tired again. Nope, same message, still money in the account needs to be less then 10 euros. Transferred another two euros, but still no dice. Filed a complaint and they closed the account for me. To me this shows just some idiot not knowing how to program and properly test the functionality, or a willing error to not allow you to close your account. Take your pick.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 08:39:08 am
content: The biggest problem is indeed the maturity of the software.They could not get it right earlier let alone now with all these cameras , radar and so called autonomous driving.Just as with abs and belts which increased safety, the result was that people felt so safe they began to drive unsafer. So if these new features give you an unwarranted extra safety feeling, you know what the stupid people will do.https://www.dumpert.nl/item/100051980_0c76ee08

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 08:57:32 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 25, 2023, 08:39:08 amYeah these new automatic emergency braking systems are not to be relied on to just work in every situation. There is a mountain of software that makes it work, even involving AI into the mix.They really activate at the last possible moment and might not actually stop in time to prevent contact if the conditions are not ideal (good road surface, good tires, well maintained brakes..etc), but they still reduce the speed down significantly to a point where there are no/minimal injuries. None the less they are a great thing when driving in poor visibility like heavy rain or fog since the radar can see trough the fog and has a faster reaction time.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 10:54:12 am
content: Quote from: Berni on January 25, 2023, 08:57:32 amBut it still can't look around cornersIn heavy rain or fog it is just wise to lower your speed to give yourself more time to react. None the less there are always idiots who think they are indestructible and overtake you in these circumstances

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 11:09:51 am
content: And what is the programming language used? C and C++ are terribly dangerous, we all know how antique and shitty it is having no memory protection.Who's doing the actual ISO26262 evaluation or certification? Nobody but the automaker thinking "it's OK" in house.Tesla's infotainment systems wearing out their FLASH memory, an embarrassing fiasco that required NHTSA pressure for a full recall. The S/W wearing out the H/W.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 11:22:44 am
content: Indeed it is no replacement for common sense of adapting your driving to the conditions.Even saw a Tesla with its self driving loose it in a corner. It was going around a corner that was too slippery for the speed it tried to take it at, so it ends up spinning it. They do slow down in corners, but it is likely turned for taking corners in good dry road conditions.

author: DrGeoff
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 11:52:48 am
content: 100 million lines of code?I don't believe that for a minute unless there are reams and reams of comments and full source revision history in every file, along with an essay of legalese and copyright information, although none of this is really 'code'.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 12:34:55 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on January 25, 2023, 08:57:32 amI would say they are great based on a recent experience. Car in front slammed on their brakes but they had no functioning brake lights, only to decide to turn off in front of me with no indicator either. I probably should have noticed clues from their driving, as they seemed erratic and their vehicle was in poor condition, but I was in 'autopilot' as brains tend to do while driving. The radar picked this up well before I noticed. I was following with 3-sec distance and the immediate beep and red flashing warning in my face immediately directed my attention and I braked hard. The nice thing is when AEB detects an event, it always enhances the brake response, so even a slight press is interpreted as significant braking. Then ABS and ESP handle the stability of the vehicle. Plenty of space to safely stop ... would I have avoided hitting them without, well quite possibly, but it definitely gave me extra margin. Do I rely on them? Absolutely no, the radar cannot detect all events, it's only there in addition to the meatbag in the driver's seat.

author: Vincent
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 01:03:25 pm
content: And now we have smartphone apps that connect to cars. Hackers' wonderland!Never in a century will I have my car and smartphone connected together. Or my bank account and my smartphone. Or anything critical and my smartphone for that matter.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 04:23:01 pm
content: Quote from: DrGeoff on January 25, 2023, 11:52:48 amIt will be that much when you include the code for various libraries which get dragged in due to dependencies whether the code is ever executed or not.

author: mendip_discovery
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 07:50:55 pm
content: 3d fuel maps, logging and interpretation of various sensors. Safety devices. Then you have the reversing camera, self parking etc. This is before you get to the infotainment side of stuff. It's not unsurprising how much code in the car. Things are worse as more cpu power and memory is available so code doesnt need to be as efficient as it used to be.Oh there is of course the amount of coding that goes into making the car really good for the environment..especially during testing.I'm driving a 2003 Mercedes this week and that has a ton of buttons, it took ages just to find out how to open the fuel cap. I think the buttons moving to a touch screen is just the next step of the evolution of cars, more crap. Worse is some things are going to be subscription based, want heated seats that will be 9.99 a month.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 09:35:06 pm
content: QuoteYes, that's one issue (the other is no tactile feedback). I wonder if a touchscreen could be programmed to only accept touch on active buttons (that is, those available to be touched). Then you could rest a couple of fingers on the inactive part of the screen to steady your hand, which would go a long way to resolving the wandering finger issue.I have no idea how modern car touchscreens work so this is based on smartphone screens. However, I always have problems with my center-console satnav which often thinks I want to scroll the map rather then depress a virtual button.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 09:41:51 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on January 25, 2023, 06:57:23 pmIt's an issue of lifetime, the amount of data logged in the EV infotainment unit (FLASH writes) is huge, more so with self-driving. Tesla thought6 years is OKdespite the purported extra life an EV is supposed to offer.You just know it's going to be an expensive repair, and surely "oh they are obsolete now, you should buy a new car" line coming out of the dealership service rep.

author: nigelwright7557
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 09:47:09 pm
content: The problem with code is once it is written how long do you spend testing it and rewriting the crap parts ?Management think once its written then its done.The next stage is thorough testing which can take as long as writing it in the first place if done properly.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 09:58:37 pm
content: The problem is feature creep + software developers deciding how products should be developed.To paraphase a famous quote, software is much too serious a matter to be left to software developers.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 10:14:02 pm
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on January 25, 2023, 12:20:12 amHoly shit!Quote

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 11:06:07 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on January 25, 2023, 06:57:23 pmTesla's incompetent engineering wrt to flash has nothing to do with them making electric vehicles, nor any other EV manufacturer.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 11:12:49 pm
content: Quote from: PlainName on January 25, 2023, 10:14:02 pmFrom what I remember a bug that affected some Toyota ECUs related to the cruise control handling. The cruise control loop would read some global state variable for engine speed and gearbox selection to determine vehicle speed. The problem was, if you crashed the sensor loop that measured engine rpm, it was possible the cruise control loop could over-run on its acceleration. It's pretty easy to see if the cruise control is at 70 mph, but vehicle is at 69.5 mph, it might add 1% to the vehicle throttle. If the sensor doesn't update the data, then it will continue to add to the vehicle throttle until it hits its authority limit.The authority limit will vary, on simpler control systems it will be just be fixed, but on more advanced systems it will use the gearbox angle sensor to provide better response, so if going uphill it will allow more power to be mixed in more quickly. So this sensor also becomes important because if the data from that goes awry then the cruise control could be allowed to use full power on even downhill slopes. Worst case the bit flips just as you crest a hill, cruise control has full power authority, and you're going down the hill with throttle heading towards 100%.According to the report I read, there's absolutely no 'stale data' handling, in any of the cruise control logic. And this is not the only fatal design flaw in the software.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 25, 2023, 11:24:42 pm
content: I can't imagine any circumstance where I would acquire a Toyota.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2023, 01:08:57 am
content: Toyota used to make pretty reliable vehicles. Until millions of lines of software code started to creep in. How sad.Of course that's not just with Toyota. It's everywhere.Does that mean we'll have to accept that having tons of features is more important than reliability, and take this as our new normal? And meanwhile paying millions to consulting firms that will come up with the promise of a definitive method to solve it all?

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2023, 06:41:07 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 25, 2023, 12:34:55 pmYeah i really like emergency braking feature. Volvo seams to have tuned them really well in my opinion(low false positives, but triggers when it should)The warning beeps it makes are the most useful to me. As a human i have to watch a car and observe it getting closer and closer oddly fast before i realize this is a dangerous situation. Yet the radar just has to watch the doppler shift in the reflected signal to instantly get an information about how fast that car is going, so it figures out this is a bad situation much much sooner. At this point i hover my foot over the brake pedal whenever i hear the red warning. When on cruse control it even starts more gently applying the brake itself before the warning (good for the cars behind me)But this is the easiest example for the system to handle. It just tracks the moving targets on the radar and looks for any that slow down at a high rate. The fancy AI tech comes in to process the information from the cameras. That is because the radar can't easily see stationary/slow targets (they could be just be lamp post or a reflection from the road). So for situations where you come around a blind corner and there is a car stopped on the other end it uses a camera to actually see the car. Similar for pedestrians that cross the road.But i still would not want to rely on the system to do the right thing for me. I treat it more as a 2nd layer of defense for when my human reflexes end up being too slow. Not letting it do all the braking, since it probably would eventually hit a weird edge condition where it decided not to brake when it should. Same reason why i am not so trustful of full self driving cars, sure they work well most of the time, but most of the time is not good enough when your life is on the line.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2023, 06:53:46 am
content: Quote from: PlainName on January 25, 2023, 09:35:06 pmAt one point i was curious and tested the multitouch implementation (modern Volvo). It only registers the first touch location. So once you press and hold one finger on the display it will track that finger as the touched location, ignoring any other touches happening elsewhere. So yeah leaning on the screen is not possible there. Other cars likely do similar.Tho i would think this is all a software thing. Pretty much all modern capacitive touchscreens support multitouch (that's why other touches didn't disturb the tracking of the first touched finger location) so the touchscreen controller is likely spitting out all the touch locations. But probably was the easiest in software to just take the first touch location is reports as a "mouse cursor" and ignore the rest.Hopefully they sort out this giant touchscreen bullshit by the time i switch cars, i don't want to go from having dedicated buttons to a touchscreen.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2023, 08:06:14 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 25, 2023, 09:58:37 pmSince I am EE by education and SWE for 25+ years for occupation I can say this from my experiences:GUI's design : yes you need people who have an deep understanding of human thinking esp those with lower iq to design a good and clear GUI.Software coding: no you need SW architects for a good clean architecture, skilled SWE en designers to use the correct statemachines, designpatterns etc.Hardware engineers programming software, few are really good but unfortunately most suffer from the Dunning-krugereffect in this regard and this forum is full of itEmbedded software boundary of HSI yes you really like an EE involved as well.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2023, 08:56:54 am
content: Quote from: DrGeoff on January 25, 2023, 11:52:48 amYou shouldn't, this guy has zero credibility, and just comes with controversial statements that carry zero real world value when it comes to cars. I particularly loved that video from him where he stated that because of an injection moulded air valve, Teslas are superior to every other electric car.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2023, 09:22:37 am
content: Quote from: tszaboo on January 26, 2023, 08:56:54 amSandy's knowledge of anything outside of his specific area of expertise (which seems to be assembly and fasteners, I'd guess) is kinda poor. And it's poor as in he often guesses, rather than saying "I don't understand this".He also seems very bitter about being fired from Ford, I wonder if there is more to that story.Still, if you ignore Sandy, the other Munro&Assoc. engineers are very interesting to watch.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2023, 02:31:23 pm
content: How many lines in Apolo 1960s computers,8192?How many lines in 1980s Star wars SDI antimissile défense control system?How many lines in your "smart" internet connected TV?Jon

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 26, 2023, 11:08:33 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 26, 2023, 08:06:14 amYes, and this was actually a thing back in the 80s/90s, it seems to have gone downhill ever since. Now it's all good if it is shiny and flat. (You can replace "shiny" with "dark mode" which is the new trendy shit, but same.)Quote from: Kjelt on January 26, 2023, 08:06:14 amOh yes, but it isn't really compatible with the agile methods in general, which have plagued the industry.This is less obvious in heavily regulated fields (such as automotive, medical), but still has some impact at many places.Quote from: Kjelt on January 26, 2023, 08:06:14 amWell, software programming has gone downhil too IMHO in general, but you are right in pointing out that "embedded development" is much too often done by EEs with only very basic software development skills.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 12:05:26 am
content: QuoteAmazing how many products list dark mode as the top or second to top feature. For example:https://vovsoft.com/software/text-edit-plus/

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 12:32:02 am
content: Just let ChatGPT3 write the car code and all will be fine and dandy! Surely it can figure out all the "safety situation issues"!

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 02:31:55 am
content: There were already enough *physical* variables to cause cars to crash, long before this madness of “software fixes everything!” arrived. Now there’s more to crash, virtual affecting physical. Don’t tell the EV obsessives, they’ll downplay it and find some reason to justify all this bullshit.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 04:58:01 am
content: Quote from: MT on January 27, 2023, 12:32:02 amFixed that.

author: MrMobodies
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 06:00:57 am
content: Toyota joke:They were treating it like a car but it wasn't. It was a computer controlling a car but where was the reset button?I see that 1996 Corolla did have a key (as expected in that day and age) so I wonder why didn't he use it to turn it off or maybe it was so quick when it accelerated that he didn't have a chance despite pushing the breaks.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 06:40:55 am
content: Quote from: MT on January 27, 2023, 12:32:02 amCould not find it anymore, but my wife read part of an article to me a couple of days back about the IQ of AI. According to it the best at the moment was about 80. My searches on google only showed me an IQ for AI of ~47. An average six year old human is smarter then thatSo I see your sarcasm here, but I'm afraid a lot of people do think it is the solution for everything in the near future. My fear is that it is all down hill from here on out.P.S. That is the ritual here. The wife scans the internet every morning for all kinds of news and if there is something technical she mentions it to me.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 06:49:48 am
content: Quote from: MrMobodies on January 27, 2023, 06:00:57 amA lot of people freeze in an emergency situation and the only response is the foot on the break or no response at all. My response in car emergency situations is the handbrake, which I believe still to be fully mechanical on most cars. Might not do a lot when full throttle drive is on the wheels, but it did help us a while back when the wife responded a bit late on the highway and traffic in front was coming to a halt. As a passenger I tend stay alert and in driving mode

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 07:27:25 am
content: Yep a lot of people just completely freeze in emergency situations. They are not sure what to do in the stress of it all, so they end up doing nothing, or doing one thing over and over and over.Because of this quite a few unintended acceleration events can be attributed to the driver simply mixing up the brake and throttle pedals. Something happens like an obstacle or taping the accelerator while thinking they are on the break, they panic and as the default response slam on the brake pedal as hard as they can...however there foot ends up being above the accelerator pedal. The car starts going faster they panic even more and press the pedal even harder, up until they end up crashing into a wall.In the event of an bug in the ECU making the car go full throttle can indeed be stopped in a whole range of ways. Like you can turn the key (tho this doesn't directly kill power to everyiyng, ECUs shut down with a delay to have time to safely save data), you can press in the clutch, if you have an automatic you can shift it into neutral. stomping on the brakes hard will bring a car to a stop even if its hurtling down the highway at full throttle...etc But the driver has to think of one of those and do it, yet most people have no idea how a car actually works, so they have no idea what to even do. As far as they are concerned the car is actively trying to kill them and they can't do anything because the car is not acting normal.Handbrake probably can't stop a engine at full throttle, but even this thing is now electronic. You press a button and a little motor does its whirly business back there to actually apply the 'handbrake'. It is not even a hardwired switch that gives it power directly, it is soft button that tells electronics to do it. Cars also don't have keys anymore, but the ones with a start button typically have a safety feature that it will do an emergency shutdown if you hold the button or press it 3 times quickly or something while the car is on. Id prefer to have the oldschool key and mechanical handbrake.Because everyone has a car these days, there will always be dumb drivers that do dumb things.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 07:45:33 am
content: Quote from: Berni on January 27, 2023, 07:27:25 amOur new car does indeed have a start/stop button, but the handbrake seems to be old fashion mechanical. There is a lever for it.It took a bit of time to get used to the start/stop button. The act of sticking the key in the lock was burnt into muscle memoryQuote from: Berni on January 27, 2023, 07:27:25 amYep, certainly true.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 09:19:45 am
content: Some people seem to find adapting to slightly different systems very difficult !!

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 11:42:20 am
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 26, 2023, 11:08:33 pmDepends on the way Agile is practiced but yes I have seen manager driven SAFe trains that were forced to deliver a lot fast and quality second. The whole SAFe basis is that the teams are enforced to say no esp. when quality is compromised. The teams should be empowered.So I would say that esp. companies that claim they work SAFe but actually are doing management driven forced waterfall way of working are just bullsh*tting themselves. It is up to the teams to fight back or quit.Quote from: SiliconWizard on January 25, 2023, 09:58:37 pmI agree, no wonder since the general thought of hiring managers still seems to be that every smart educated person can be a good software engineer. "Hey I am a chemist but have programmed some python interface at home for Home Assistent" "You're hired!"As if they would do this for airplane pilots? "Hey I used MS Flightsim at home" "You're hired!"So no wonder SW engineers in general are seen as monkeys, there are a lot of them. But there are real skills and trainings for a good SWE and many fields of experience. You can not generalize the same as digital fpga engineers are different from MW power electronic engineers, there are many many specializations in software as well.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 12:09:46 pm
content: Yeah i also find that it is easy to find someone who can program, but very difficult to find someone who is actually properly good at it.They also hire software developers depending on if they can invert a binary tree (that they did many times in school) or use some web framework that is trendy that particular month. They might know how to use a C++ class, but not how to set up the architecture of there code using classes in a clean well done way.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 03:06:44 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on January 27, 2023, 06:49:48 amSee also: accelerator/brake confusion is common in automatic cars. If a driver presses what they think is the brake and the car goes faster, an instinctive reaction might be to press the 'brake' harder. In a panic, it's very easy to make a mistake, and not everyone thinks rationally.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 11:04:35 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on January 27, 2023, 03:06:44 pmI have occasionally made that mistake after getting used to driving a manual. I go to push in the clutch and my left foot catches the edge of the wide brake pedal. The car brakes, which makes me think I have not pushed the clutch pedal in far enough, so I push harder, and harder, and come to a screeching stop.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 11:16:16 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on January 27, 2023, 11:04:35 pmAt least one advantage of a manual is there's an instinct to declutch and downshift to start slowing, so if you aren't slowing enough while pressing the 'brake', you might just go for the clutch by instinct. Also you need to be a lot more aware of your foot positions to drive a manual, as you use both feet, usually left foot for the clutch and right foot for brake and accelerator. In an automatic you usually just rest your left foot.I still like driving automatic, though. I don't miss the clutch one bit, I know some drivers who say they love manuals, but I reckon a city drive in a good, modern automatic car (or electric/hybrid) would convince them otherwise.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 27, 2023, 11:34:04 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on January 27, 2023, 11:42:20 amWhile some of the agile principles were defined by software developers a long time ago already, mostly to fight against bad management, it quickly turned against them and has been used as a management tool for at least a decade now - more like almost 15 years, I'd say.As to teams fighting back, from what I've seen, it just doesn't happen.And for the young developers out there, they don't know any better usually, so they don't even see the problem. Until they burn out, for some of them. The rest will take the cash and move on.But methods are just means to an end. The end has been to provide increasingly complex systems, at an increasingly fast pace, for the lowest cost possible and at the expense of reliability.And leaders have seen software as an enabler of all this, due to its apparent extreme flexibility.Basic rules of physics still apply though. The more flexible something is and the less structure it has, and past a certain point, it will just collapse.

author: josuah
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 12:28:46 am
content: That sounds like a case ofmaking the unexpected even less likely -vs- correctly handling unexpected conditions:My impression is pointing the programming language is relevant, but the spontaneous conclusion "replace the language" does not cover the full problem:1. Non-software problems (power electronics, motor control algorithms in any language, ASIC design) have at least as many footguns as risky programming languages. Is there a Rust for Electrical Engineering, Rust for manufacturing?2. The real solution might not be a language, but an architecture: having a failure (memory safety among many others) less likely to happen (i.e. through language safety) would not replace blocking the propagation of any failure. i.e. a hypervisor, watchdog timers, redundancy, or simply observing the possible affected parts. Although language safety might contribute in favor of this tooSome topical analogy would be saying that to take a passenger safely from point A to point B, more safety mechanisms help, but do not replace careful driving. :-)

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 05:11:48 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on January 27, 2023, 11:04:35 pmThis reminds me of our first holiday we had in the states. We hired a car and it was an automatic. Driven only manuals up to that point, so the leaving of the parking lot was a bit shaky me trying to push the clutch that was not there but hitting the brake with force. This because your left foot is used to push with force straight down, where as your right foot is gentle in applying pressure to the brake

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 05:26:10 am
content: having seen the video. a lot of this is about assumptions. that everybody has your best interest at heart.the HAL 9000 is integrated software at work.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 05:42:19 am
content: Quote from: josuah on January 28, 2023, 12:28:46 amIt takes thorough analysis of the underlying problems to come up with proper solutions and it might be that the analysis phase is skipped more often. You can't catch every condition because otherwise there would be no unexpected, but with cars being in existence for many years most should be known.Quote from: josuah on January 28, 2023, 12:28:46 amRelying on a programming language to make your code safe is grounds in itself for errors. It should not matter which language you use to write your program, you have to be aware of the logic and perform proper tests to catch the errors and possible unforeseen results. This refers back to proper analysis.Quote from: josuah on January 28, 2023, 12:28:46 amI know little about how modern car control systems are set up architecturally, but wonder if they have redundant processors like I have seen in early digital phone switching systems. These used three separate control systems with an arbitrator to select the leading answer.So yes it is not just software that should be analyzed when it comes to safety. Hardware is as much a part of it all. To create something truly safe a proper design of all facets is needed, including a full plan for testing those aspects, both hardware and software. This also means designing tests to test the safety features like the watchdog timers.And this takes times which is where the problem lies, because that costs money.Quote from: josuah on January 28, 2023, 12:28:46 amThe one big problem in this is the human factor. There are so many that think they are the best drivers in the world, but in reality are not. Just look on youtube at the videos about idiot drivers. In 40 years of driving I never had an accident, but avoided quite a few with fast reacting to stupid moves from others.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 02:23:58 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on January 27, 2023, 11:04:35 pmYep did the mistake of pressing the 'clutch' in an automatic before. It gets you stopped real quick indeed.Part of it is also that you never press the clutch pedal gently. You always just stomp down all the way on it. As a result you don't actually have the muscle memory of being gentle on pedal using the left foot. Go ahead and try to use the left foot to intentionally press the brake pedal. Even if you try to press it slowly gently, you end up pressing it quite a bit harder than you intend., not making for a smooth deceleration at all.After actually owning an automatic transmission car the clutch problem never happened again. Driving a manual again is no problem (apart from forgetting to down shift here or there until the engine reminds me to with being unhappy about its low RPM). But yeah driving in the city is so much nicer with an automatic once you experience both sides of the coin. (And it helps when you have the transmissions computer figured out, so that you avoid doing things that confuse it about what gear it thinks it should be in)

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 02:40:57 pm
content: Given I’ve owned several new cars , I don’t see the problem people are eluding too. Most worked as I expected then including some with elaborate driver aids.In reality new cars are extremely reliable certainly compared to the rubbish around in my dads time where th engine needed a re-bore after 200,000km and the body rusted away in a few yearsToday I get 7 year warranties ( Kia) and very reliable long lived modern cars despite considerable more complexity etc.

author: MadScientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 03:05:38 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on January 28, 2023, 02:48:55 pmCan’t say what battery it is but it’s on its original

author: MT
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 28, 2023, 03:53:18 pm
content: Quote from: Berni on January 27, 2023, 07:27:25 amSome potentially deadly dangerous machines are required to have an emergency stop switch. In a car it could also cause an accident, so to override or not override could be a question.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 10:28:40 am
content: Quote from: Berni on January 27, 2023, 07:27:25 amI had a situation like that. Throttle was stuck underneath the floor mat. Stepped on the break, car slowed down, put it in neutral and got it unstuck.I had also the other situation, where I pressed accidently the throttle instead of the break for a fraction of a second because something unexpected happened.You don't know how you would react in an emergency situation, it depends on your state of mind, and so many other things. It's really like rolling a dice. Or more like playing russian roulette.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 11:31:00 am
content: Yep i have mixed up the brake and accelerator pedal before too, luckily without any accident as a result since i quickly figured out that something felt very wrong.The issue is the people who react to this situation by pressing the wrong pedal even harder and continuing to do so for multiple seconds while screaming in panic, making the car continue to build more and more speed until they crash into something at a dangerous amount of speed.Getting a drivers license involves getting the hang of a lot of car related skills. However they don't tend to teach how to react in emergency situations. So when such an emergency happens they have seen it for the first time and have to figure out what to do on the spot. While being trained on how to respond in such a situation will make them already subconsciously react to it. This is why pilots are put trough a wide range of simulated aircraft failures. Something similar should be part of getting a drivers license.Here in Slovenia, about 10 years ago they have have introduced a new requirement for getting a drivers license. It is going trough the safe driving testing grounds where they can simulate various road hazards. They use a smooth plastic coated road surface to simulate slippery/icy conditions. Then they have you drive a slalom between cones on it, brake hard with just half of the wheels on a slippery surface, drive around a corner that transitions to slippery half way, drive down a hill on it, evade a random appearing obstacle in the form of a water curtain, knock your rear out on it using a hydraulic platform...etc. This is excellent training to show drivers how the car reacts when it is not fully under control, so that when they get into a hairy situation on the road they know what to do and what to expect.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 12:07:22 pm
content: I quite fancy going to Slovenia just to get a license

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 12:14:48 pm
content: Quote from: MadScientist on January 28, 2023, 03:05:38 pmWhen I scrapped my 14 year old Peugeot 206 diesel it was still using the original battery from the factory.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 12:15:34 pm
content: I think most countries have locations where you can join a day course in car skidding / slipping practices ?Indeed absolutely recommended to get an idea what happens with a car when the conditions are not optimal.Esp. driving on a slippery driveway with 30 - 50 - 80 km/hour and then see what happens when you need an emergency stop.So glad there were no trees on the side during that courseAlso never had the wish to drive over 130km/hour on the german highway anymore when other traffic is present.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 01:17:28 pm
content: I think the place also offers an independent class that anyone can take.Years before this was made an requirement, i got to go there trough through the insurance company. I was classified as a young driver back then and could get a nice insurance discount on my car if i take the class. It was a very fun afternoon for sure, would recommend. The skills from there have certainly come in useful. Like for example going around a curve on the highway at 100+ km/h and it suddenly turns into a icy skid.Don't think i heard of any other country having this as a requirement, but they really should. If anyone is from a country where they do, do tell us about it.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 01:40:16 pm
content: We have 'Pass Plus' in the UK which is endorsed by insurance companies to help provide a discount to younger drivers, but in reality it usually only offers around a 5% discount. On a £1,000 insurance premium it rarely pays for the cost of the course.The approach for a discount here is to get a telematics unit which monitors your driving; acceleration, braking, time of day. But I've never liked the idea.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 01:52:56 pm
content: ABS definitely improves safety. The biggest benefit though is that it gives you the ability to steer away from a possibly inevitable collision. You can't do that if the wheels lock. And modern vehicles can detect the quality of the road surface and alter how the ABS works, or offer a user-selectable surface setting (more common in 4WD vehicles.)ESP is another good feature. The computer compares steering angle with actual angle of the vehicle and applies light braking to keep the vehicle stable. It means you get much better grip if one wheel loses traction and enables the 'moose test' to be passed at faster speeds.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 02:48:18 pm
content: Quote from: bigfoot22 on January 31, 2023, 01:43:59 pm.. you give yourself time. You control following distance, not them.ABS is useful at any speed above about 30mph, if you never go that fast.. you probably don't need a car at all.QuoteNo, that's not how ABS works.

author: pcprogrammer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 03:31:43 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on January 31, 2023, 02:48:18 pmThat brings a peeve to the table.Cruising along at a reasonable pace on cruse control, keeping proper distance between you and the car in front of you, some idiot comes and overtakes you and pushes in between you and the other car, forcing you to readjust your speed to bring back the proper gap again

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 03:41:41 pm
content: QuoteYes, exactly so. All the many millions of situations where ABS has scored are negated by a single second-hand tale of poor maintenance.Er...

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2023, 03:44:27 pm
content: Quote from: pcprogrammer on January 31, 2023, 03:31:43 pmThat can be irritating. Annoying is what happened to me this morning when someone indicated and pulled straight over just as I'm passing, forcing me to brake heavily in order to not ram them up the arse.