crApple's disposable products - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2012, 10:33:37 pm
content: As people who "don't turn it on ... take it apart!" you may find this article interesting.http://ifixit.org/2763/the-new-macbook-pro-unfixable-unhackable-untenable/Pretty shady business practice if you ask me. Imagine if auto makers started assembling cars with "Pentalobe" screws, fusing consumable parts like oil filters to the engine block, and other such nonsense.

author: bullet308
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2012, 10:59:33 pm
content: They used to claim that Microsoft "welded the hood shut" on Windows visa vis Linux.Apple has apparently decided to apply this notion even more literally. :-/

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 16, 2012, 11:56:16 pm
content: What's the DSO to her left, can't quite make it out? And what's a chick doing with a DSO? Something's fishy :-)

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2012, 12:01:04 am
content: Quote from: digsys on June 16, 2012, 11:56:16 pmLooks a hell of a lot like a Rigol DS1000D series to me.

author: Dawn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2012, 12:03:33 am
content: What's really new here? Product sustainability has been eroding since the 90's once SMT components began to dominate electronics. As early as '91, I was receiving service manuals with the disclaimer that the equipment was designed to be serviced at board level only. Decades old dealerships were progressively locked out of component level repair information and parts unless they undertook the costs of prohibitively expensive training and approved service equipment as depot level repair centers if they wanted to do board level rework at investment levels they couldn't justify. By the next decade, that evaporated.It's lucky if you can get component level service literature at all nowadays on just about anything. HP/Agilent included. Even corporate level service in many cases is no longer available after product termination. Just swaps for current, re-manufactured items or credits towards new equipment. It used to be service and parts should be available for 7 years after product retirement. It's not uncommon for a year old consumer item like a digital camera to be unrepairable due to no parts available by factory service and you're often lucky to get anything fixed after 3 years of owning it. It's often cheaper to buy new. The die was cast during the 80's. Just in time inventory controls, huge, line item minimums, house marked parts and custom, unidentified components. Service documentation that rarely matched to boards, completely potted boards, spot welded & swaged components, and riveted cases were already the harbingers of what was to come.Dealers unable to stand behind their sales and manufacturers hell bent on wrestling service from the dealers, meanwhile razor thin sales margins required moving vast amount of product. To who? Pissed off customers that were formally loyal to you for decades that would never buy your products or services again...and let everyone know it. Planned obsolescence has been around a while. Now that customers are essentially in the direct channel with manufacturers and subject to their whim, the spin is in. A whole generation is now been conditioned to get in line and upgrade to the next, latest, and greatest long before the end of the useful product life of the existing product. And they're falling over themselves to do it rather then express anger at the company for the premature obsolescence.An entire female styled consumer culture has been cultivated that questions nothing with regard to sustainability, only trend and social status. It's more important to fit in and have the next cool product then a roof over your head and plan for tomorrow.

author: Dawn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2012, 12:16:55 am
content: Hope this makes you happy now. Sometimes formatting in Word doesn't carry over via clip and paste.

author: gxti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2012, 12:27:49 am
content: Quote from: iamwhoiam on June 17, 2012, 12:04:59 amDo you have a watchdog timer that resets your brain after 90 seconds? Because that is approximately the time elapsed between their post and yours. (As I write this I see it was reformatted, but really it was not at all hard to read...)Quote from: DawnStatus-seeking is a gender-neutral behavior. There are many men, and more than a few women, who would try to fix something if they could, but as a percentage of everyone the vast majority would still throw it in the garbage and calmly drive to the Mapple store to get a new one, on credit of course. Not to pick a huge nit or anything, it just sounded strange in my head to word it as "female styled".

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 17, 2012, 12:36:03 am
content: Quote from: gxti on June 17, 2012, 12:27:49 amPlease don't argue with pedants it just encourages them.

author: Dawn
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2012, 01:17:12 am
content: @GXTI: I'm currently reading two books on male marginalization and underachievement. The effects of mass media and marketing strategy is now principally oriented towards women. Females now either make or influence the decision of most all non-gender specific purchases. Unless you're selling non-fashion sporting goods, video gaming, or other items that are male specific, the advertisers are marketing to women as the principal demographic. Sell the female and the male will follow. Additionally, more and more males are adopting color, style, trend, entitlement, and time savings marketed products that have traditionally been targeted to women in that manner. Male marketing appealed to perceived need and quantitative specifications that logically presented a case why a product was better. Male's relative social status is hierarchal oriented, not horizontally where conformity is valued until recently.Have you seen an Apple commercial lately? Visited an Apple Store? Attended a university lecture hall? Watched a television show or movie's product placement? Apple is hardly trying to appeal to traditional male marketing techniques. I hope this illustrates the point I'm trying to make.

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2012, 01:52:29 am
content: Apples business model is simple. Release a new model every year, design a product that lasts two years so it runs until the extended applecare runs out.Half of apple users are afficionados that buy into the yearly update , so 300 charges is no problem. The other half is on the two yearly cycle....So why do they need repairability? If it breaks hand it to apple and they give you a repaired one no questions asked ( under applecare plan )Apple does not want an aftermarket repair service. They want to sell new ones !They get no money from an outside company that fixes one.So, from apples business perspective it all makes sense.I'm not defending this stance. I too like something i can fix, but from a pure business perspective, you don't want that.@dawn : cry me a river. Repairing smd boards does not require expensive equipment or costly training. Replacing a resistor is no more difficult than replacing a thru hole resistor. Granted, replacing a bga is a different story, but if you need to swap the central processor in a flat panel it is beyond economic repair any way... Swap the board in that case.This boohoo cry of repairshops is, in many cases, a 'we don't understand the technology anymore' masquearded as a ' it's uncervicable because the parts are small'. Move with the times. We are beyond a switching power supply made with 20 components. Its all PfC , autovoltage switch ,standby , high efficiency multi output these days. And it involves lots of chips. A lot of the repair techs could understand a schematic with 5 transistors.. Anything beyond that is over their head. Too bad ! Learn electronics. Unfortunately a lot of repair techs are only out to make a quick buck and have zero interest in electronics itself.

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2012, 01:59:32 am
content: Quote from: Dawn on June 17, 2012, 01:17:12 amI think the term you are looking for is "hipsters". It's just another fashion fad by another generation. Companies just go along with it and milk it dry as much as they can.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2012, 02:06:47 am
content: Quote from: Dawn on June 17, 2012, 01:17:12 amThere is nothing new or odd or surprising about this. It hasn't changed, it is the way it always has been. Men are not marginalized, they are logical and sensible and they know which side their bread is buttered.Women have always been responsible for the home. In matters of furnishings, decor, appliances and clothes, women have always made the decisions. The menfolk go along with it because they have learned that women generally have good taste in matters of style, and it makes their life better and more comfortable if they let women have their head in such things.If you have not realized this, I wonder where you have been living for the past hundred years?Now let it come to a matter of function, like tools or gadgets or cars, then men are likely to assert their influence. But even with cars this will fail when a family is involved, and owning "his" and "her" cars might be the only way out. When it comes to "den" where men can control their environment they are likely to be banished to the shed or the garage.Now I think it is true today that society is changing and traditional gender roles are being disrupted. The historical arrangement of a male/female partnership was a balance of give and take. Men gained a home and care and nurture and gave up wealth and freedom. Women gave up a degree of self-determination and gained support and security. In today's world, boundaries are being blurred and both men and women are individually seeking wealth and freedom and self-determination. Unfortunately in this brave new world I think both sides are also losing what they had.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2012, 05:46:22 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 17, 2012, 01:52:29 amI agree with this, and after seeing what laptop/mobile repair centers in east Asia can do, I'd say it's actually easier in many ways. No need to poke at parts with an iron, just blow with a hot air gun. There are many videos on YouTube showing the process.Back to Apple: it's pretty clear they don't want their products serviced, ever since they started omitting PCB silkscreens and incorporating lots of proprietary ICs. With that practice, even relying on leaked schematics (how a lot of repair shops work now) it's difficult to perform troubleshooting.I think at the opposite extreme would be the Chinese shanzhai, who use common parts in their products, sometimes recycled/salvaged (many would balk at this, but it does seem to be more environmentally friendly and unless damaged and/or specific cases like with flash, semiconductors don't "wear out"), and keep a somewhat "open" mentality about service. If something is not easily serviceable it's not due to deliberate attempts to make it so, but the quirks of less-than-perfect manufacturing process.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2012, 06:42:03 am
content: I often use refurbished parts on my own equipment, or for repairs. Why buy a resistor when I have literally hundreds around in dead equipment, just choose the value and size to suit what is to hand. same for a lot of common parts, I just check electrolytics for ESR before reuse.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2012, 07:08:12 am
content: Quote from: Dawn on June 17, 2012, 01:17:12 amNow that I think about it, I can't imagine the "Marlboro Man" or that Dos Equis guy selling iAnything. Fortunately, these are mere fads. Real Men will want their pants back.

author: PeteInTexas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2012, 07:11:37 am
content: Quote from: Dawn on June 17, 2012, 12:03:33 amHere is an article with an interesting look at how computers were sold:http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/05/make-mainframes-not-war-how-mad-men-sold-computers-in-the-1960s-and-1970s/

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2012, 07:55:22 am
content: There's nothing wrong with using refurbished parts for your own projects, prototyping and repairs (as long as you tell the customer) but you shouldn't use them to make supposedly new equipment and sell it as such.How would you feel if you bought a new car, only to discover the engine had already done 100,000 miles?If recycled parts are used, a product can't be sold as new. It has to be labelled as refurbished.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2012, 08:02:54 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 17, 2012, 01:52:29 amI don't think even Apple wants to repair stuff. When my iPod battery was recalled for being explosive, they just sent me a new iPod. It's probably cheaper that way. And what happens with all the old glued together hardware? If it can't be properly broken down then all that fancy milled aluminum and tempered glass probably ends up in the landfill.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2012, 08:12:43 am
content: If you buy a new car, often it has had hundreds of miles on it during shipping and dealership. Often the odometer is left disconnected until it is undergoing the final PDC before the customer gets it. The delivery drivers are not the gentlest drivers either, they get paid per vehicle, and it is hard to track them in a speed photo as there is generally only a dealer plate in the car, on the seat next to the driver.When the work got a new van the PDC had left this disconnected, and i knew the vehicle had been driven to the dealership from the stock location point, around 500km round trip. 140 000 plus km later nothing wrong with the engine, though the body is rusting, along with all the common problems with the particular make and model.As to the recycling of electronics, most will be recycled to China or East Africa, where it will be burnt to get the copper and lead out of it. Poor workers who are exploited for nothing, and get killed for it.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 17, 2012, 12:30:06 pm
content: If a product was designed nearly perfect, there is nothing to repair except when damaged. So, in the end, we go from component level, to board level to product level. Its not really a problem since recycling electronics in the West tends to grind whole boards into slag, not reclaim parts, and then reclaim extracted metals like mining from dirt.Now hacking is another issue, since these devices obsolete quickly and are available, its now depends if you've the time to get into it and see what you can do that the makers did not intend. This how the IED in the Gulf got created or the popular Rigol 1052e hack, but one that is possible given knowledge and skills. I'm not sure I'd dedicate my time to do this on the Apple platform, as the target audience would have to be technical too to deal with unforeseen glitches after a hack, so its better on Android which is open from the get go.

author: benemorius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2012, 02:24:29 am
content: Well it's certainly good to see people getting worked up about this, but I think it's critical that the energy has the appropriate focal point. This hasnothing at allto do with Apple. What we're addressing here is a system flaw that pertains to the economic system itself. Capitalism served america rather well for a while (for better or worse) several decades ago, but that time is long gone. The system has been figured out, calculated, and played. And now it seems to have grown and spread to the world at large. You can't fault the companies - not even the ones who play the game exceedingly well. They are only taking part in an ongoing game and the game is simply being followed to its natural conclusion.We aren't talking about "bad apples" here. These aren't a few rogue corporations who have become slightly or substantially more greedy than the rest. This did not happen because some evil person woke up one day and decided that he could serve himself best by bringing these laws and regulations about, and everyone else could just be damned. Rather, it happens because hundreds of people grow up every day and look at the world around them and say "Aha! So this is economics. Let me see what I can do to earn a healthy living." And so it begins. Rarely does anyone look around and say "Good god! This system we're using has developed some awful unintended consequences. Let me see if there might be a better way of doing this." And so it continues.In america, we are indoctrinated by the schools from a very early age to see capitalism as the most bestest economic system that ever was. It is delivered hand-in-hand with the equally awesome concept of freedom, to the extent that they are seen as one and the same, and it is indeed a very potent doctrine. Hardly anyone imagines - nay - hardly anyone even imaginesthat they can imaginethat one might conduct business any other way. In america, no one says "capitalism is the economic system that we use." Rather, they say "the economic system is called capitalism." See what I did there? It's not even a selection from a category. It just is. Green is the color. Chicken is the food. Agilent is the scope manufacturer. People don't even realize they're doing it. At the very most, you might get someone who says "so what do you want to use then... socialism?!?!" as if that were the only other option. In their mind, it is evidently both the only other option and in fact a non-option, once again leaving capitalism as "the" economic system.In fact it has become so bad that american corporations are actually requiredby lawto hold the pursuit of profit above even the public interest. A CEO has no choice but to stop wasting money by printing full schematics and repair manuals for his products because there are a dozen shareholders ready to fire him in a heartbeat the moment it's brought to their attention that they're "wasting" money on something which has no appreciable return on investment. He knows this, so naturally he stops printing the damn schematics. Where in the early days of capitalism a company used to be run essentially by one or a few people, and those people made decisions which they felt would best serve their company and their moral obligations to their community, companies are now run by too many moving parts for any one part to greatly affect the end result regardless of moral obligations. This is exactly equivalent and probably directly related to the well knownbystander effect, whereby the likelihood of an individual breaking the routine and "doing the right thing" in a given situation is inversely proportional to the number of individuals present who are permitted the same opportunity. This effectively leaves the whole thing subject to little more than the rules and nature of whatever economic system it functions under.Given any system of sufficient complexity, it is not easy to know what end a given set of rules will lead to. That's why we simulate things. Often the only way to understand a system is to set it up and let it run its course. We now know what sort of end the rules of capitalism lead to, and no one can deny that it isn't a pretty end. It's time for the people to wipe it out and start over with something which will tend toward a good end - something which naturally encourages things that we consider beneficial, rather than something which impedes progress and causes widespread harm while serving a minority who choose to spend their effort on the otherwise unproductive task of figuring out how to play a silly game.In short, we have a system which does not merely allow, but in factencourages and rewardswaste, greed, and corruption. We see this now. In hindsight, there indeed is no way that we should have expected any other outcome. We can't expect to fix this by yelling at the players and telling them to stop doing what's working well for them. The game itself is the problem. This shit's got to go.(Oops. It's fascinating how one little paragraph can turn in to a novel during a routine proofread.)

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 18, 2012, 03:42:23 am
content: Dear Benemorius:--I take your point. If only we could rid the USA of those pesky concepts, like Liberty, and Private Property, and concentrate all power in the State, then the State would wither away, and we would have a Utopia, under the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. We could call you a dreamer, but your'e not the only one."I were better to be eaten to death with a rust than to be scoured to nothing with perpetual motion."William Shakespeare 1564 1616Best RegardsClear Ether

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2012, 04:33:47 am
content: @benemorius:So what do you suggest as alternative ? Critiquing is one thing... Coming up with a solution another...Surely you don't mean socialism where a street sweeper makes the same as a brainsurgeon ? That too has been tried and the outcome was a society of streetsweepers , no food on the plank.

author: Zeph
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 18, 2012, 05:02:45 am
content: Seems like Dawn was describing a wide range of impediments to repairing electronics - SMD was just one of many aspects. Yes, today a repair shop could replace SMD components - if they have access to component level service manuals, anomymized parts, custom parts, etc.As others have pointed out, there is financial reward for the manufacturer to follow the practices Dawn describes, so it makes sense at that level. But that shift of power towards the manufacturer has effects.One of the slogans of the Maker movement is "If you can't open it, you don't own it." We could nit pick and debate the fine points of any simple slogan, but overall it's encouraging that some people are starting to want to know how things work and how to make more customized alternatives to the stock offerings, rather than being solely passive consumers. That's not going to replace complex equipment (people are not going to make their own HDTV's); even clever individuals can only tackle a subset of technological projects. But it may help us to continue to foster creative engineers and scientists; the trend has been to have too few sharp new ones to replace the retirees.It has been said that the companies are just following fashion fads in order to sell product (in their advertising), but I think it's a two way street and influences go both ways. If you grow up with mostly welded-shut hoods, you are going to be more easily swayed by color and cool factor, than serious understanding of functionality. The product design approach of which Mapple is an exemplar, is creating that passivity and faddishness in the culture, not just adapting to it.

author: benemorius
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2012, 05:51:18 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 18, 2012, 04:33:47 amIsn't that the truth! I won't pretend to be the one who knows of a better system. I'm not even out trying to draw attention to the current system. I only aim to refocus the attention of people who appear to be getting upset at the wrong thing. No one likes to see wasted effort. There are so many people who just wouldn't even think to consider a system flaw as the root problem. Far be it from me to let them go about their merry way without at least making a decent case for them to take into consideration.

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2012, 06:18:20 am
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 18, 2012, 04:33:47 amThe fact is that Socialism & Capitalism in their pure forms have not been tried.You would have to go back to "Year One"to see if they worked!My feeling is that neither of them would work in that situation either!The Soviet Union was just another Dictatorship using Socialism as its cover story.There were a lot of street sweepers,but there were a lot of Party bosses living like kings,off the back of the poor deluded Workers.It is notable that many Bosses, of whatever political persuasions, adopt the trappings of Feudalism,while feeding the "mugs" a lot of crap about whatever other "ism" they purport to represent.The more successful societies of the present day,have a mix of Socialism & Capitalism,which works quite well.Some things which are essential to any Nation-State must be in the hands of the Government,(hence the taxpayers),such as the Military forces,Customs,Law Enforcement,& a few others.A private company can go broke & close its doors,the Army can't!In some countries a lot of services are provided by the State,others rely on the Private sector to provide many services.Neither emphasis is better for every country,or permanent!

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2012, 04:01:04 pm
content: Quote from: Zeph on June 18, 2012, 05:02:45 amaha. Here is a little element that almost anyone overlooks ..Apple does NOT sell computers .... they sell appliances ! (apple-iances ? iAppleances ?)Their machines are really treated like a dishwasher or a fridge. You buy the model you want and use it as-is. sure you can install software on it , but the base machine is an appliance ...So if you want something you can tinker with ... buy something else ...

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2012, 04:44:59 pm
content: Many Apple products are manufactured either by cheap Chinese labor [ Foxconn] or automated robotic plants, or a mix of both. Therefore cost to make complete units could be less than the cost to package, inventory, and distribute parts, and the personnel to man such, in USA or other first world country labor rates.While some transcendent conspiracy could be postulated, Occam's razor suggests the more plausible reason, a purely economic one, is likely a true reason.Quote from: benemorius on June 18, 2012, 02:24:29 am

author: FJV
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2012, 05:52:45 pm
content: Quote from: Dawn on June 17, 2012, 01:17:12 amConsidering the past when "the ships were made of wood and the men were made of iron", the men wore make up and whigs, I don't really "get" the whole male female thing talked about here.

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2012, 03:17:36 am
content: This thread is hilarious. People are complaining about computers that can't be fixed (despite the fact that they are most of the time), and that Apple is just out to design computers that only last until Applecare runs out. News flash: Apple computers actually have resale value because they do continue to work. For a very long time. My MBP is from 2007, and despite a lot of serious dents and dings it still works just fine. I've replaced the fan twice without serious issue. That is likely the only mechanical part that will ever wear out. My optical drive died after a bad fall years ago. I never bothered to fix it because I absolutely don't care.The SSD will wear out on these new ones, and it can be replaced. The motherboard is a single unit like every other computer and it will be replaced rather than repaired, as to do so would be a giant waste of money (by any vendor). The ram is soldered on, not a fan of that. But on the other hand the majority of their customers just buy it with all the ram in it they need.Incidentally their warranty costs are a very manageable, 1% of annual revenue. That's hardly a product that wears out all the time.Computers don't need to be super flexible and upgradeable. Technology advances so fast there is rarely much you can really do. Besides putting a new drive and more ram in my computer, there is nothing that I can do to really any laptop. I don't really like that I can't put more ram in it, but the cost difference is small compared to the total cost. It's ALWAYS a mistake to say that what YOU want is what MOST people want. Most people on this forum are already hostile to Apple products, so why exactly do you think you know what their customers want?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2012, 03:39:40 am
content: Quote from: jerry507 on June 19, 2012, 03:17:36 amIs this the bit where we're all supposed to swoon?QuoteAnd this helps the consumer how? For that matter it could also bring about the conclusion that there is an underspend on warranty.QuoteFor those that this applies to Apple could be a viable option.Quotemost skivvy wearing Macophile zealots are prone to wild generalisation.QuoteAnd you are better qualified to offer opinion because? ...............

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2012, 05:21:30 am
content: Quote from: jerry507 on June 19, 2012, 03:17:36 amThat's nothing in lifespan. My oldest machineCase dates back to 1998, so does the power supply. A good yearly dusting with a blast of compressed air... Antec supply.Motherboard and cpu date from 2000. Ram was upgraded several times. Harddisk is from 2002 graphics bosrd from 2005. Optical.. I dont know it was the first dvd recorder hp dvr100.. Later upgraded to a dvr 200 with a free trade in ( hp recalled the 100's because they promised a firmware update to do dvd-r , but could only do dvd+rw... )Pentium iv 1.8 ghz.. Runs win xp . As smooth as the first day it was installed. Only software it runs is some compilers for embedded processors and the driver software for my dataman 48 programmer as well as my hilo all03 programmer.Ik keep it around because it is my only desktop that still has a printerport and two serials...Its probably worthless as a computer but a new device programmer would set me back quite an amount of money...

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2012, 05:43:17 am
content: Quote from: jerry507 on June 19, 2012, 03:17:36 amThey charge 5x the market price for extra RAM, geddit? I think you most probably are a crApple dickhead

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2012, 08:58:24 am
content: Quote from: jerry507 on June 19, 2012, 03:17:36 amYou forgot about the battery, the part that's likely to wear out before anything else in a laptop.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2012, 11:27:46 am
content: http://gizmodo.com/5919149/your-brain-scan-looks-different-on-mac-and-pcAnother reason real engineers use PCs, and Linux !.. kidding aside, one real problem is the researchers failed to check their calibration during the studies and relied on the metrology schedule.

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2012, 05:47:06 pm
content: QuoteThis is a great example of the kind of idiot statements that come with Apple bashing. Two points. First, going from 4GB to 8GB costs 100$. Given that they ship with 2x2GB sticks which you'll have to replace anyway, you need 8GB of ram. A quick, stupidly simple, search of Newegg reveals that this would cost you around 50$ for some reasonable mid range ram. 5x suddenly becomes 2x. If you bothered to check your numbers like any reasonable engineer, you wouldn't be posting stupid stuff in this thread. Second, I looked at a Dell Alienware M14x laptop on Dells webpage (again just look the minimum number of steps to get there, nothing special). It comes with 6GB of ram and they want 75$ to go to 8GB. Granted, it's a sample size of one but the point is they don't actually charge any more than any other laptop manufacturer does. They ALL extort around 100$ out of you for the first step. Given that nearly all of them will ship multiple DIMMs instead of just one, you're always going to be buying that 50$ worth of new ram and never reusing the old stuff. This point is just absolutely garbage.As to Uncle Vernons points, Apple computer owners very often times sell their old machines to offset the costs of their new ones. Getting 50% or more of the original purchase price back is a very nice thing. If we were talking about cars you wouldn't balk at the concept of resale value. Most PCs typically have low resale value, to the point where we usually don't even think about trying. But because we're talking about APPLE here, we can't consider any reasonable thought so F resale value all the way! Also, you must not understand what it means to have low warranty costs. If you recall, warranty costs are entirely paid by the manufacturer. Either they try and screw you out of any warranty repairs or they do a good job of making products with low failure rates. You probably have no experience with Apple warranties but everyone I've ever known has been quite happy and never been denied a warranty repair they deserved. They even replace bad power adapters which are nearly always bad because of excessive wear. Batteries are also replaced under Applecare (only because it's unlikely that your battery will die in the first year, it's also covered on the manufacturer warranty).And free_electron, you're comparing apples and oranges. Desktops are not laptops. You can't upgrade a motherboard, graphics card or optical drive in a laptop. In every single mainstream manufacturer these components are fixed, and you'll only be looking at a new HDD and new ram. I upgraded both HDD and ram in my MBP because I knew I could do it for less myself and I also waited a year or two because I didn't have the money up front. While the latter is something a lot of people would like to do, the former isn't. Many, if not the vast majority, of every day consumers don't upgrade either over the lifespan of the machine. For 100$, it's not exactly ridiculous to just put the ram in up front. The SSD is upgradeable, just not a existing standard drive. New drives will be released for it, and yes they will probably cost a small percentage more. It's not ideal, but what is? This is quite dumb and they should have used a standard drive socket.And amyk, thanks for that. You're absolutely right. Apparently it's 200$ to get it replaced. The older ones (that even *gasp* had to be replaced by a tech!) were only 130$ (the same price as the even older user replaceable ones...). That is absolute crap. Not sure why they had to glue it in instead of screws.If you have little idea what you're talking about, it all seems terribly out of line and outrageous. Then you compare it to the rest of the market and oh look, pretty standard. Surprising.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2012, 07:45:57 pm
content: Ha. I owned a HP with a high failure rate and they WILL entirely fix the laptop, i believe every part in the laptop broke at least twice if not thriceContinue your dickhead stories about apple and bullshit about them all the way, all my laptops now have low failure rates and if they do break the repair centre takes it in.Your love of this dickhead company called "Apple" has batteries that die after a year ... SADLY MINE DOESN'T and i'm always on the roadBy the way, if you didn't know, you open up ANY laptop, they aren't soldered in, you can buy a similar CPU off-shelf and replace it?Fair enough? The GPU's mostly uses MXM standard, which can again be replaced with a bigger model if you preferLooks like after all your years with apple you failed to realise other manufacturers actually MAKE laptops with INTERCHANGEABLE partsOkay, look at this, really, it might not be that high over there but local Apple shops are charging a full brick for 4GB to 8GB < That's 200$ !I bought my 4GB DDR3-1600 sticks for only 30$ !So conclusion ? apple makes products that you can't touch, completely locked up, non-servicable and entirely uselessSo far i saw from HP, Acer, Fujitsu ? I tore them down beforeProcessor : Interchangeable !RAM : Upgradeable, no problems, fujitsu and acer came with 1 ram slot filledGPU : The only laptop with discrete graphics is my fujitsu and it uses the MXM-3 standard (ALL current cards use this profile)Board ? : Tough luck if this one spoils, who cares anywayLCD Panel ? : Replaceable ODDLY!Battery ? : Okay, it's not BUT AT LEAST IT'S NOT FREAKING GLUED ONKeyboard : Replaceable AGAINDVD Drive : Hot swappable on the HP and fujitsu but again it's replaceableNow the biggest part HARDDISK ! It is ... SATA3 and easy to put back! Damn they have a door for itWhat else ... FANS : They are available off-the-shelfPower supply : Fujitsu uses nearly the same plug for all laptops, not a big deal, HP might not but once again not a big dealThere's a reason fujitsu uses a 95W power supply for all laptopsSo your statement : "You can't upgrade a motherboard, graphics card or optical drive in a laptop" makes you dimmer then a dimwit" SOMEBODY GET ME MY VOLTAGE DOUBLER I HAVE A GENUINE ISSUE HERE "

author: Omicron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2012, 08:54:14 pm
content: Quote from: DaveXRQ on June 19, 2012, 07:45:57 pmI 'm sorry, but this kind of language belongs in the school playground. It's fair enough to have an opinion and we all visit forums like these to be able to discuss. But it would be nice if some basic politeness can be shown. You may have strong feelings about this topic. That still doesn't mean that anyone with a different opinion than yours should be stamped "dimwit".

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2012, 09:17:57 pm
content: The only laptop worth having is a Panasonic toughbook. They are truly indestructible (well almost) you can drop them wet them sit on them they will even stop a bullet.http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1783054/posts

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2012, 10:19:40 pm
content: Apparently,MacBooks cannot stop bullets.Source (haaretz.com)-George

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2012, 10:55:26 pm
content: join the pissing contestmac user piss in neatly aligned trajectory , all aimed in the same direction hitting the preset target at the same distance. no droplets on the floor.PC users piss in two general direction (depending if they are linux or windows pissers) , not realing caring if they splatter a bit on the floor. They'll mop it up later. if they encounter a pc-pisser from a different camp they turn at each other trying to get the 'other camp' wet. If i mac user joins they will call a temporary truce and form a pc-vs-mac alliance team up trying to get mac pisser wet , or at least break his concentration.Outsiders looking at the pissing contest and get the urge to let it rip too ... like really baaaaad , but they don't know how to get their fly open ...

author: lowimpedance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2012, 11:04:49 pm
content: Quote from: iamwhoiam on June 19, 2012, 10:43:47 pmhuh.................... reminds me of a recent thread !!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2012, 11:34:48 pm
content: Quote from: jerry507 on June 19, 2012, 05:47:06 pmThat's nice for them,just a damn pity so many of them cannot do it quietly. I hear that collectors of antique clocks can return a tidy profit too, and couldn't give a flying fernando about that either.QuoteWe are not and again I couldn't care less about any Prius or POS heap of euro crap you maycare to bang on about.QuoteYou could see a similar trend for most hammers It doesn't preclude their being an extremely useful tool. WTF buys any tool for it's resale value?QuoteWell actually we were talking about Apples deliberate obsolescence of their products. I guess that was your invitation to don the skivvy and bang on senseless about the virtue of white plastic.QuoteClearly! You've undergone the Apple thought modification and now see it as your born again role to evangelise to PC users everywhere.QuoteNo the only misunderstanding is your inability to STFU with your Apple evangelising, and your inability to consider that any opinion that differs with your own could actually be a valid one.QuoteNo they are not! I don't see Apple subsidising the cost of a cross state trip to face some condescending twerp labelled genius. Nor do I see any recompense for the hours lost convincing said twerp that yes it is broken regardless of whether or not that eventuality was ever considered in his customer interface manual.QuoteThat or any one of the myriad other possibilities you have failed to consider.QuoteYou probably have no experience with the principle of an open mind. HTF do you no what exposure or have or have not had? Just your in-considered guesses.QuoteWell there is an indicative sample group. Did you all come to the same conclusion or was it something your read from the grand wizard's fortnightly newsletter?QuoteYeah yeah, and the girl with big norks plays a mean tambourine. Meanwhile back in reality land.QuoteHow? HTF do your wear out a PSU. If the product has a given life, then surely it's ancillaries should last for a similar period.QuoteSo only parts unlikely to fail are covered?QuotePerhaps you'd care to ponder on your own advice!QuoteFor the most part Apple is the only one of the majors welding the bonnet shut on service replacement across their entire product range, if you cannot grasp the implications of this your skivvy is way too tight!

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2012, 12:53:12 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 19, 2012, 11:34:48 pmIf it's perfectly acceptable for someone to post a poorly thought through topic with plenty of factually incorrect information, why isn't it perfectly acceptable for others to respond telling them exactly that? The topic wasn't started as a boast about Apple being awesome, but it was responded to by plenty of people who just can't "do it quietly."

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2012, 01:24:16 am
content: There is a fairly new documentary aboutplanned obsolescence, calledThe Light Bulb Conspiracy (2010)and it can be watched on YouTube:The documentary begins with an extended reference to the first organised successful attempt of planned obsolescence by thePhoebus Cartelin 1924, whose members, that were manufacturing light bulbs, 'fixed' the life expectancy of their bulbs at less than 1,000 hours.Though I am not pointing fingers at Apple for their obvious planned obsolescence policies only, there is the general concept of the finite earth resources against the infinite 'printing' (or the generation) of fiat money out of thin air: You cannot print minerals, oil or any other raw materials, while you can print fiat money without restrictions; which means that the current economic model is seriously flawed; yet this model is still evangelised at the Academia and the consumers are conditioned to follow it religiously...But noooo: We have to keep on replacing out shiny iShit before it gets too old and the other sheeple begin thinking of us as old-fashioned or, even worse, as poor... We are proud capitalists --whatever that means!I have recently written something similar, about thefraudulent Keynesianism, the economic theory according to which, every person (human or corporation) should be accumulating interest-bearing debt (borrowing fiat money) like there is no tomorrow --especially those who already are heavily indebted...-George

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2012, 03:22:12 am
content: « Reply #51 on: Today at 19:56:54 »You are ignoring this user.If only nature had an ignore or reset function too. Some people just beg for a ++

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2012, 05:13:18 am
content: Greetings EEVBees:--Please, please, folks, is it really necessary to get so hateful and personal in a discussion where there are two sides both of which comprise millions of people. They cannot all be D*ckheads, and non of them needs to STFU. It has been my experience that people who get extremely hostile at the drop of a hat, are the first ones to run and tattle to the moderator, if anyone says anything they do not like. We have even seen someone get so angry that they accused their opponent of hijacking his own thread. And on another occasion a person stated that the person he was arguing with had a deficient . So sometimes these guys can provide (unintentional) humor, but mostly they just drag down the tone of this respected forum.--I have even seen people who insult the nationality of individuals they disagree with. Some people seem to use fighting words and profanity, instead of cogent argument. I really enjoy a vigorous debate in this forum, but when people start getting hateful and personal, I can only conclude that they feel they are loosing the argument."All I wants of you, Cap'n Simmons, is plain seevility, and that of the commonest goddamndest kind!"Zeph W. PeaseBest RegardsClear Ether

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2012, 03:45:14 pm
content: Speaking previously of theseriously flawed economic model of our debt based economy, please admire its wisdom in global scale, presented by the economics professor Antony Davies, Ph.D:Here is thedebt chartalone.-George

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2012, 04:15:16 pm
content: Wonder if i should send Dave one of my old light bulbs, made some time before 1939.

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2012, 08:04:51 pm
content: Quote from: iamwhoiam on June 20, 2012, 02:56:54 amCouldn't have said it better myself.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 20, 2012, 11:44:51 pm
content: Quote from: jerry507 on June 20, 2012, 08:04:51 pmOh look tag team evangelism! Why think when you can have some numbskull force his ideas and beliefs upon youwhether it's welcome or not. Sooner you pair of primates work out that, some of us are capable of drawing our own conclusions, and that we don't need your various brands of evangelism thrust upon us, then the better off you will be!Hold what ever nub-job ideas you want, seven day creationism, white computers are good for self esteem.Hell your even free to discuss your crackpot theories.But try and force your views as the only ones to be had, and you will continue to be due, a metric shitload of criticism and criticism!

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2012, 04:04:40 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 20, 2012, 11:44:51 pmYou don't even bother to actually say anything technical or on topic. Never mind that you went offtopic and got more angry faster than anyone else on this thread. Why bother at all?

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2012, 04:10:52 am
content: Quote from: jerry507 on June 21, 2012, 04:04:40 amYou started your evangelism and naturally everything went off course, dick

author: WorldPowerLabs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2012, 09:07:51 pm
content: Quote from: SgtRock on June 20, 2012, 05:13:18 amWell said. There is no "winning" this debate so long as folks hold different opinions. Personally, I prefer PCs because I can build a machine any way I want from the huge variety of hardware that's readily available. I also like to have multiple sources of repair parts (need a motherboard? there are at least 6 good manufacturers... etc.) However, some folks like to fire up a computer and never think about how it works. Neither side is right -- just different.Now, I do take issue with Apple's apparent attitude that consumer electronics should be disposable. If you throw away a device, you can't consider only the impact of the device itself going into the waste (or recycling) stream. You have to consider the resources and energy that were used to make the device, too.I am not an environmentalist per-se, but I dislike wasting resources needlessly. (My newest vehicle is 13 years old, and my older one is 15... I tend to keep things for a while, and I don't buy into the "trade-up" mentality so long as something serves my purpose and doesn't cost much money to keep. I also try to buy used whenever I can).

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 12:49:46 am
content: WorldPowerLabs, i salute you.I really hate to throw out things but when it's thanks to the manufacturer that it's now beyond repair i have to throw it out... I didn't have a use for my Alpine 4x60W amp so i lent it to my father's friend, if it's shot i can easily repair it ... it's so simple insideYet to me it's my kingpin for any sort of audio ... at full power it only has 0.03% THD+Noise

author: joelby
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 01:26:54 am
content: Why throw things out when you can recycle them? At least in Australia, Apple will collect and recycle your old computer (from any manufacturer) if you buy a new computer. You can also post in old Apple phones and iPods for free, or return an old iPod to a store for a 10% discount on a new one.All of the major PC manufacturers have a recycling program of some sort.If you mean personal recycling (e.g. fitting a new motherboard when an old one fails or becomes obsolete), spare/refurbished logic boards and other parts for most popular laptops eventually seem to filter through to eBay and other similar outlets, and someone will eventually write 'how to' guides for replacing things without damaging them.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 02:14:13 am
content: Quote from: joelby on June 22, 2012, 01:26:54 amWhat can you recycle in a ultra dense laptop? That laptop had a oddly high failure rate and there it did ... right after warranty the southbridge failedYes the northbridge is easily available but the southbridge ? No. It's the NF430 whatever southbridge

author: joelby
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 02:22:32 am
content: Quote from: DaveXRQ on June 22, 2012, 02:14:13 amIt depends what you mean by 'recycling'. If you mean recovering all of the raw materials, then it doesn't really matter how dense the construction is. It's silly to throw any electronics into landfill these days, unless e-waste collection in your region doesn't exist or is very expensive.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 02:27:55 am
content: Quote from: joelby on June 22, 2012, 02:22:32 amHa. Recycling here is like throwing into the bin ... people burn the recycling bins the town council places thereE-waste does not exist here, mainly because nobody would be bothered to (I'll give you a figure, 95% of people here use crApple's disposable products)

author: joelby
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 02:34:23 am
content: Quote from: DaveXRQ on June 22, 2012, 02:27:55 amWell, if you don't want to be apathetic, there's a company that will pick equipment up and recycle it for you, free of charge:http://www.apple.com/sg/recycling/computer/http://www.reverselogistic.com/apple.consumer/

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 02:46:17 am
content: Quote from: joelby on June 22, 2012, 02:34:23 amNo point really, it just wastes my timeLet me put a end to this thread, somebody lock it please

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 03:13:00 am
content: Really, whatexactlyis the "recycle plan" that Apple (or any "Apple") states that has? Shipping the totally useless rubbish to the neighbor's yard for "further processing" according to the stated promises?According tothe documentaryI posted at the previous page, e-waste is shipped in huge containers to Third World countries (the "Developing countries" according to the official euphemism, for those who refuse to read between the lines and see beyond the State and corporate doublespeak) for the locals to scrap the metals, since the minimum wages in the "Developed countries" are already too high for such a dull, unhealthy and risky work...I am afraid that Dave, above, has got it right...-George

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 06:57:43 am
content: Quote from: A Hellene on June 22, 2012, 03:13:00 amJust to support what George has saidTo joelbyIn short, this "recycling" bullshit is wasting the earth even further,1) Think of the people processing all these, it ain't very nice to them all the smoke and shit2) You think they process it at a recycling plant? When's the last time you saw one?3) Oh, how many tonnes of carbon has been "wasted" on transporting all these "recycled" stuff?4) As much as i do not want to, i blame RoHS and greedy Coporations for planned obsolescence, when's the last time i threw out something that was soldered with leaded solder? Never.5) Speaking of lead solder, electronics only has about 0.5-0.6% of the lead from earth, military shells and shit on the other hand 50-60%WOW, 50-60% of lead in the air ...

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 07:03:43 am
content: Quote from: DaveXRQ on June 22, 2012, 02:14:13 amMobile phones have even denser construction and the Chinese have no real problems stripping the parts off the PCB and selling them. A large percentage of them probably still work fine.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 07:34:14 am
content: A lot of people think recycling is some kind of magic reset button. Poof ... back to zero right? Despite all our good intentions, recycling is far from perfect. I volunteer at an organisation that repurposes (ideally) and ethically recycles old computers, and a lot of waste still ends up going to the dump. Fossil fuels have to be burned in order to transport and process the material. Sometimes, recycling uses more energy than producing virgin material. You can't take back the pollution and toxic materials that were produced to make a product. China gets most of its mineral coltan, which is used to manufacture electronic components, from Africa, where it is mined in horrible, exploitative ways. There are numerous social and environmental costs associated with disposable culture. Financial too. I am charged an eco fee every time I purchase, and dispose of a product. I have to pay taxes for my city to provide disposal services. Sure it's a fact of life right now, but Apple is speeding up the life cycle, and off-loading the costs onto you. Apple knows all the tricks so they don't have to pay taxes.If computers were a subscription service, and the manufacturer absorbed the costs of obsolescence, you can bet they wouldn't be gluing batteries to cases.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 08:19:09 am
content: throw everything into the sea. everything will melt down there. or at least leaving precious metal intact... "natural selection" of recycling programme. saving everybody and make new home to fishes.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 08:36:48 am
content: Ah, they have already been doing that for the radioactive waste and they call it "ocean disposal" --you know: spent nuclear fuel (the rods), radioactive medical and industrial waste, etc.! The long term radioactive waste, like the depleted uranium with a half life of 4.5 billion years, they give it to the mercenaries to bury it in the Middle Eastern sand, in the Balkans (Yugoslavia), etc.Please, Mecha, stop giving them ideas!-George

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 08:37:32 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 22, 2012, 08:19:09 amI'm sort of hoping you are joking. If not, this is the stupidest comment I've heard in a long time.Personally I also believe avoiding rubbish in the firt place is the best solution. If we have to throw things out eventually they should be recycled in an environmentaly friendly way so that precious raw materials get recovered. I'm not convinced that is what happens at the moment, though.I own very few electronic things that were bought new, most of my stuff is second hand. When I buy something new I try to choose it so that there's a reasonable chance it'll last for many years. That has become much more difficult in the last years, so maybe I'm being a bit naive there.When it comes to PC's everything I have I've got for free or second hand for very little money, the only exception being hard drives. There are so many people who feel the need to upgrade their stuff every 1-2 years, there's really very little need to buy new hardware.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 01:29:42 pm
content: Greetings EEVBees:--Recycling, Feh! Here in Orange County Florida, the County mandated a one cent tax on all plastic milk jugs. Now the environmentally minded consumers put the jugs in the special plastic recycling bins. The bins are then collected by the special recycling trucks, and taken to the recycling center. The plastic milk jugs are then seperated out of the stream and then transported to the landfill and discarded. This at least triples the cost of discarding a plastic milk jug. It is kind of like digging a hole and then filling it up again, or using fuel, to grow corn, to make alcohol, which must be transported in trucks, for it cannot be put in pipelines, and then added to gasoline in order to "save fuel". This kind of "recycling" may not be effecient, but it does provide government jobs, for people who in the end, will by and large vote for the party that sponsored the one cent fee in the first place.--I would love to own an Apple product, even if you cannot take them "apaaaht" As a financial necessity most of my equipment is rescued, recycled, refurbished, or repaired. This sort of thing is easier for PC users who can work from a list of ingredients, as opposed to Apple users who prefer to work from a menu."I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left."Margaret Thatcher 1925 -Best RegardsClear Ether

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 02:44:29 pm
content: You do know that the DU that is sprayed around with such abandon is actually less radioactive than the ore it came from. Another use is in the aprons that you wear in a radiological suite, they are made from uranium, not lead, as it is denser and has a larger nucleus.A funny thing about radioactive waste is that the one mine site in Oklo is actually the remains of a natural reactor complex, where dozens of reactors formed and ran for milennia, with all the waste staying close to the site of reaction, even though the rock is sandstones and permeated with water.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 04:17:07 pm
content: Just to drive the discussion back on topic, the issue of disposable electronics is a problem if you cannot reach the final "R" ofwaste management:recycle; unlike other waste its less likely to berepurposed or reusedwhen its obsolete.Some of the comments made about recycling as dumping it to Africa, India or China, is increasingly not practiced in developed countries because of the value in the trash, and the increasing cost of oil to ship out: ground electronics and mine the trash, called slag, for metals is more cost effective than mining them from the earth. Its become fairly lucrative and sustainable, and one needn't worry about the current but past trend of reclaiming used electronic parts, then reselling them either as used or as counterfeit, new.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronics_recycling#Processing_techniquesFor iPads, iPhones or PCs as example, even if new models come up before the old ones lose all their functionality, so long as the user doesn't dump them, they can be taken for reuse in reuse programs, just as GoodWill in the USA takes used clothing, re-users take the electronics given to them free, which they resell for a profit at lower cost, making everyone happy.http://www.epa.gov/osw/conserve/materials/ecycling/donate.htm

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 04:32:14 pm
content: I don't really want to argue but most of the iPhones you see around probably already has acracked screenbefore the 2 years mark reaches

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 05:19:52 pm
content: Cracked screens are very common in cellphones, so its one of the few things that are serviceable, and fairly easy, not just for iPhones. Another common ailment is dropping it in water, and the right person can revitalize even that phone.http://www.wikihow.com/Fix-an-iPhone-3G-ScreenBecause wet phones take some doing, its often exchanged for refurbished ones until the wet one can be dried out properly and rinsed. Also, its only possible if its wet in fresh water, not salt.http://dabbler.hubpages.com/hub/Apple-iPhone-Water-DamageFWIW, after the above's abuse if true, its a testament to how well they can be built.Quote from: DaveXRQ on June 22, 2012, 04:32:14 pm

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 05:25:25 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on June 22, 2012, 05:19:52 pmIt's actually a testament to howbadlybuilt they areMind you don't forget where they are built ... FOXCONN !Poor quality glass usedAnd yeah, it is already sealed it should have been waterproof, which means BAD sealing

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 06:28:42 pm
content: How do you know the quality of the glass is so poor?

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 06:46:50 pm
content: Quote from: jerry507 on June 22, 2012, 06:28:42 pmBecause it breaks so easily?If you think gorilla glass wasn't around when the 4 came out ... NO it came out alreadyThe gorilla glass that was made for apple ... is not the same gorilla glass on my HTC phone mine didn't break after a drop (10 drops nothing happened)

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 06:47:34 pm
content: made by monkeys ? ( although gorilla's are technically "ape's" )

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 06:50:33 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on June 22, 2012, 06:47:34 pmI guess so, google it, corning made them glass in 1960's but it never took offI'll just say apple got an inferior version of gorilla glass

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 07:07:10 pm
content: QuoteMaybe, bacause of the fact that it breaks more easily than it should?And, as far as I know, this short-lived, expensive and fragile gadget does not require the demonstration of any short of Academic credentials in Strength of Materials Technology, in order to be purchased. After all, its target groupisAverage Joe...QuoteThere, I fixed it for you (skipping the "under god" part of the quotation for obvious reasons)!-George

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 09:17:38 pm
content: Quote from: A Hellene on June 22, 2012, 07:07:10 pmiphone was created, CREATED , by men and is EVOLVING. -GASP-... that'll have their little brains in a knot ... although i wouldn;t call it 'intelligent design'... more a marketing ploy...

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 09:46:06 pm
content: That's right. A marketing ploy; a new religion...Well, that hardly helps, does it? That is the Kafkaesque genius of it: Once a religion is conceived, created and established, there is nothing any sane man can do about it...-George

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 10:43:28 pm
content: I think you guys are kind of missing the point. When the wifi antenna on my laptop died, I was able to prolong its life by replacing it for a few bucks. Apple is going out of their way to make it harder for you to replace the glass, battery etc. yourself. The cost for "authorized service" of a consumable part is very prohibitive. Likely Apple replaces the entire assembly, if not the whole device, instead of just the necessary part anyway, so again more waste is produced. The bottom line is that they are accelerating obsolescence, and actively encouraging more consumption. Recycling is all fine and nice, but the owner already went and bought another computer and advanced the cycle. Goodwill isn't going to pay the $200 to replace a battery. I don't think this is what the public really want, but the manufacturers lure us in with thin profiles and shiny screens.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2012, 11:25:06 pm
content: Dear Timelessbeing:--Your point is well taken. It is going to be very hard in the future to recycle Apple products except by chipper. Remember Apple was founded by an avaricious anarchic hippie genius, who had very little patience with the grouldlings. For anyone to say that Apples is just doing things this way because that is the best way to to them, as opposed to the profit motive, is delusional, in my opinion. Apple is heading for the old AT&T, Bell Telephone monopoly model, where you pay through the nose to rent equipment, which you may not alter in any way. I remember when people had to pay nine cents a month for a light on the Princess Phone, a real status item.--Indeed, Jobs and Apple have charted a very sagacious course through the rocks, in finding a customer base composed of 1) people who just want to get on with it, and not get bogged down in all the computer minutiae, and endless choices, and 2) People who see computers as fashion accessories and conform to Veblen's "conspicuous consumption", or snob factor."All business sagacity reduces itself in the last analysis to judicious use of sabotage."Thorstein Bunde Veblen 1857 - 1929Best RegardsClear Ether

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 01:09:24 am
content: Quote from: SgtRock on June 22, 2012, 11:25:06 pmThat's not entirely true. For example, I remember using the PowerMac G3s in high school. It was designed so that with a pull of a latch, the side swung down and you had easy access to all the innards, while the computer was running!I'm not sure if the current desktops still do this, but I heard a rumour that Apple was discontinuing the PowerMacs in favour of the (less accessible) iMac. My point is, Apple chooses to make the Macbook, iPad, iPhone etc. the way they do. In my experience, people will buy whatever is offered to them and then they adjust to it (and sometimes defend it). Apple are trend setters. They don'tfinda market ... theyshapeit.I actually prefer MacOS to Windows, but now that crApple has increased prices and uses these greedy self-preservation tactics, I won't be buying their products. Maybe the recent iToys are a sign of a new post-Jobs era for Apple.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 01:24:35 am
content: Quotetheory (or politically motivated theories) sometime doesnt work in reality (based on comments of previous posters) and creates more harm than good. so, sometime a stupidiest idea you need to take into consideration, because sometime the so thought "brilliant" idea gave bad results.Quoteso you are the one man suitable to make a campaign. how about those youngs who keep upgrading and throwing stuffs out? and comparing their gadgetry side by side to compare who got the latest one? i believe they outnumber us (you) the awareness people. the best thing to avoid rubbish is dont use anything, back in the cave.Quotei happen to know "many" people who would go "buy new computer" just because they cannot make their printer working, or slow performing windows (highly due to fragmented installs/uninstalls) virus, not enough ram etc. you want to impose awareness? you teach them science and electronics, making circuit and soldering, thats how. making any "easily fixable" device will not make any difference to them, if its broke, there goes to the bin. i struggled (softly) with one good man because we discovered at the same time a very good looking printer in a big trash, i let him have it

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 03:22:19 am
content: While there are certainly times when they've made decisions almost certainly targeted at forcing consumers into the store (glued in battery, though I'm not entirely sure this isn't more trouble than it's worth for them), others are clearly efforts at getting a certain formfactor. The screen would be thicker if they made it with replaceable panels, there is no doubt. It's just a consequence of engineering.Also, the point of my question about the glass was HOW do you know it's inferior quality glass? You've essentially just stated it breaks after 10 drops, with no support. With the same level of confidence I can tell you that I've dropped my iPhone 4 waaay more than 10 times (my daughter has dropped it twice in the last week alone!). I dropped it once (with no cover) onto a piece of cleated metal from 4 feet, and then it bounced and fell another 4-5 feet out of the cab of the machine I was in onto the ground. I got a scratch on the back.I have no idea if the glass is quality or not, nor an example to even compare it to. Frankly I don't see any evidence you have any better understanding on the subject of glass quality than I do. At that point it's just slinging words and nothing more.

author: tjb1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 03:58:14 am
content: Quote from: DaveXRQ on June 22, 2012, 06:50:33 pmSo how many Android phones have a glass screen? How many Apple phones are out and in use? And its glass, its going to break. Its a phone, not a hammer...treat it as such and you wont have a problem. Since you seem to be such a glass specialist you should know that all glass isnt the same, they can have imperfections. You should also realize you can try a piece of glass 500 times the same way and the 501 time it will break and take another piece and it will break on the 3rd try. Seems like all you do is blindly go after Apple.I have a Macbook Pro and since you appear to know nothing about Apple products besides what you read I will tell you this. 10 screws, the bottom panel comes off and I have access to EVERYTHING...the hard drive, ram, fans, disc drive, cpu, motherboard, wireless cards. Tell me how many PC laptops you can access everything with 10 screws. If you also read some more than the blind Apple hate you would know why it isnt *replaceable* in the fact that it latches in and out, they gain around 30% more battery capacity by not having it in a separate unit that is removable. But like I said earlier, 10 screws and you have access to the battery. Another 3 and you can pop it out. Go to iFixit or eBay and you can grab a new battery. And tell me how many PC laptops get 7-8 hours run time...You hate on Apple but I can say a lot about the shit Android system...its no wonder the only reason people develop for it is because its cheap. Always 5-6 different versions in use at one time spread across a ton of different devices that have different resolutions and capabilities with only a handful of the phones actually getting upgraded to the latest version in their lifetime. My iPhone is about to hit its 3rd operating system upgrade, how many Androids even get upgraded once? How many apps on "Google Play" will work on every Android device?Before you go throwing your blind hate around, take some time to learn something. There is a reason Apple is one of the most valuable companies. Ever look at the tablet scene? Amazing how Apple can sell a $500 tablet like candy but HP couldnt sell one until they were taking a major loss on it. You think your opinions are "correct" but looking at the numbers, you are the minority.

author: Pentium100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 04:14:33 am
content: Quote from: jerry507 on June 23, 2012, 03:22:19 amI agree with this part, though I prefer a slightly bigger device that has replaceable parts. I do not like the laptop batteries - most laptops use standard cells, but if the battery goes bad you have to buy a new one and pay a lot more than what the cells cost. So when the battery of my laptop went bad, I did not replace it, when I need to use the laptop without mains power, I just use a 12V 7Ah lead-acid battery and a 12V->19V DC-DC converter. Some manufacturers make the power supplies "smart" so you can't use a standard one.When I can get away with it, I prefer to use older devices, they are easier to repair (without expensive tools) and usually more durable too. I also tend to use devices for a long time before replacing them - my current phone, Nokia N93, is 6 years old and I still use it. My opinion is that if I buy something that is going to last a long time I save more money in the long run, even if I pay more up front (I paid a lot for that N93, but currently there are very few new phones that would suit me (smartphone with a big keypad)).

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 04:30:36 am
content: Quote from: tjb1 on June 23, 2012, 03:58:14 amThus spaketh another of an endless stream of whiney fanboys. FFS get thy self a hobby!

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 05:18:34 am
content: Quote10 screws at the "bottom"? i have to shut down my PC if its on the bottom. well, tell you this. i have this unhunglow casing. my mod, only reach hand to the back, 1 screw, it open up from the side, i got everything... Intel inside, vertically socketed RAM, HDD's everything, Windows XP insideohh. laptop? i got this, Gigabyte Crap touch screen. less than 10 i counted last time iirc.Quoteand thats good! you prefer the expensive?Quotei have this a friend, told me he upgraded his android to the latest already, by the net. whatever that means.Quotemost people occupied their time by playing. i did install MechWarrior (3D game) into my nokia and all sort when i first bought it. now its nothing, just my own java developed app for calculating debt and interest. bwhaha.and built in simple calc is mostly in use. not even the camera get regular touch... crappy!Quotecount us in. the neighbooring country... Apple are minority.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 06:17:39 am
content: This is a classic, for the older to remember and the younger to learn:A $1000 iPhone application: A red static icon with a catchy caption for the Apple addicts who could afford to throw $1000 away to show off their overpriced DRM'ed Status symbols...Quote from: The Register (6th August 2008)Source:Too much money? Bling your iPhone with the $1000 appQuote from: The Register (7th August 2008)Source:Man buys $1,000 worth of iPhone pixels by accidentWhere is that Darwin emoticon?-George

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 07:03:40 am
content: LOL. Why didn't I think of that?Good way to earn cash for a new multimeter...

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 08:40:40 am
content: Quote from: tjb1 on June 23, 2012, 03:58:14 amWrong. The kindle fire sold like hotcakesYou are another crApple Evangelist1)Most android phones even far from apple's price point like the Optimus 3D has Gorilla Glass2)All HTC's now even the One V has Gorilla Glass3)1.5 is too old, move on. Most of the models have got an upgrade from 1.6 to 2.1 then to 2.2/2.34)MY phone started out at 2.2 then got an upgrade to 2.3 then i too got an upgrade to 4.05)YOU know nothing about laptops, i only need 6 screws to open up the entire thing6)1 screw and i can access the RAM7)2 screws for the harddisk8)2 screws for the fan9)2 screws for the disk drive10)1 screw for the wifi cardAnd those are individual bays, but come off together as a whole piece using the outer 6 screws11)7-8 hours? With an extended battery? That's what apple uses, A EXTENDED BATTERY! I CAN LAST 10 HOURS ON THAT BATTERY12)I had a long chat with a technician working at a glass manufacturer, most glass turn out the same for 3 inchers to 5 inchersUnless you talk about your glass pane you idiot13) There are only a few resolutions dickhead, 480x320 ( low-end ) , 800 x 480 and lastly 960 x 640And don't start a resolution war about the Pad3, it's the worst abomination ever to come out, people who buy it themselves are abominationsBlind hate? I watched the whole industry for 10 years since i was 8 so you better not think i'm a "newbie"Give me a reason why iPhones always HANG for no apparent reason and how the iPad 3 can reach searing temperaturesConclusion?

author: AntiProtonBoy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 09:11:03 am
content: Is the vitriol necessary?

author: tjb1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 12:36:27 pm
content: Quote from: DaveXRQ on June 23, 2012, 08:40:40 amOhh name calling, well you are obviously right.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 12:55:18 pm
content: I stand speechless! I was not aware that thefool-trapabove,made it to the pagesof Wikipedia!For anyone who feels disappointed to miss that rare opportunity of acquiring such a treasure, here isthe "LE" version of the original dealfrom Armin Heinrich himself again (who does not seem to be quitting so easily exploiting his simple-minded fellow people), for USD 9.99 only! This iPhone application is even availablein Japanesefor JPY 68.00 (= USD 0.85) only!It is moments like this when someone begins to wonder, why keep on trying to protect the "innocent" (and, yes, this term is a freaking euphemism) and not just join the endless line of those who try to exploit them in any conceivable way? After all, you will make them happy to make them sign up for yet another painful loan in order to purchase your shiny garbage... But, then again, if I did not let theDevil/Satanwhisper in my ear during my very early life, why should I do it now, in my mid-forties?Please, do not blame me! It was Google's fault to keep on feeding my searches with such hyperlinks!-George

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 02:58:23 pm
content: .. an electronic version of a diamond ring, and all that is stands for. Impractical as made, easily copied with cubic zirconia, yet the idea of paying top dollar for a "useless" item and to be able to show it to friends to get status to show they have money to burn; I guess status and societal affirmation becomes its use.At least you didn't see that item in the PC or Android market under the same pretense!The 'cubic zirconia' versionhttps://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=simp.IAm.Rich&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwyLDEsInNpbXAuSUFtLlJpY2giXQ..Quote from: A Hellene on June 23, 2012, 12:55:18 pm

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 03:32:38 pm
content: that point is the worst case. and sad one unlucky guy click that by accident, a victim of "automation technology". thats plain and clear useless only a dick will purposely click the buy button. but leave that alone, just think how many people just buy the phone for luxury (show off) purpose, scratch one bit they will resell or just simply throw it away, not even after its working life or warranty service. this kind of attitude what shape how companies do their business, esp in luxurious and aesthetical area (gender: lifestyle!). recycling is out of question, nobody cares. only for the poor who will more than happy to be handed down.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 04:09:43 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 23, 2012, 03:32:38 pmThat was what i was trying to get across : Once you own a iDevice this is the sort of person you are automatically grouped into or ARE!1 dickhead of a friend i have kept thinking that android is a POS, NO! He owns a POS android phone that costs 0$ and didn't even look at the bright side of android devices that cost nowhere near as a iDevice and is every bit better

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 04:49:03 pm
content: Quote from: DaveXRQ on June 23, 2012, 04:09:43 pmThis is the same quality and quantity of information contained in all this other posts: absolutely none. Most of the numbered items on his list are absolutely random (he never even bothers to say WHAT laptop he's talking about), apparently all laptops have the same number of screws unless it's an Apple laptop. As for his ridiculous "evidence" to counter what tjb1 said about Android OS distribution, I seriously wonder how tuned in he even is to technology. It's VERY VERY widely known and been shown by data collected that 2.2 or 2.3 are over half of the installed base of Android. Despite what DaveXRQ's phone got, MOST android phones will never get an upgrade to 4.0. How does he not already know this?

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 05:19:57 pm
content: Quote from: jerry507 on June 23, 2012, 04:49:03 pmBig idiot IT'S TIME TO WAKE UP! How many actual iPhone 3GS is still actually used? I'd say not many and anyway there are no speed bumps in the software updates compared to the speed bump from 2.2 to 2.3 then to 4.0Let's talk about raw speed. 2.2 is faster then iOS already how about 4.0?I'm talking about UI fluidicity that's not speed, that's self preference and 4.0 is now much smoother then 2.3 but still smoother then iOS 6Sure the 600-800MHz android models won't get an upgrade but that's = 3GSthe 1GHz models (most of them) are getting updates to 4.0Let me tell you how many laptops i DISassembled10Yes 10, most of them are 14 inchersand i can only remember 2 of themHP tx2028AU 12"Fujitsu LH520 14"

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 06:16:06 pm
content: Quote from: DaveXRQ on June 23, 2012, 05:19:57 pmCan you please explain how this relates to the topic? I don't want this to become a thread about which phone is better. There are plenty of those out there.A bit of advice: other people will take your arguments more seriously if you don't rain spit on their face.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2012, 09:00:14 pm
content: i think dave's point about the glass is "apparently" correct, but i'm not sure why people bashing and defending it. glasses do crack allright, the more aesthetical it is the more vurnerable it will be. but maybe this disposable fuss by that lady in the 1st post is just another gimmick (hypnotism) that most people will fall into... those imac maybe not that bad to take it apart at all? or maybe i'm just reading things...http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=457888http://articles.businessinsider.com/2010-01-13/tech/30018103_1_screen-repair-kit-iphonehttp://www.appleiphonereview.com/iphone-repair/iphone-cracked-glass/http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nkw=New%20Original%20Outer%20Screen%20Section%20For%20Apple%20iPhone&_itemId=250226999450and those hunglow repair kit i believe wont give you the same as original. done that on another older phone. but its indicating, diy repair is possible. rather than $149 for the original repair, not my option, there's no applecare around here (not even "canoncare" centre which device brand i have a bunches here)

author: tjb1
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2012, 02:09:10 am
content: Quote from: DaveXRQ on June 23, 2012, 08:40:40 am

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2012, 04:04:31 pm
content: Quote from: jerry507 on June 23, 2012, 03:22:19 am... what about security screws?Speaking of screws... for all those who were debating the number of screws in their computers, here's how many it takes to get the various parts of the (non-retina) 2012 Macbook Pro:I also wonder about the RAM boards. If they're so critical to form factor, why not use cages for horizontal insertion like SD cards? Or put contact pads on them and lay them flat, like SIM cards in phones?And here's a follow-up article by ifixit.http://ifixit.org/2806/unfixable-computers-are-leading-humanity-down-a-perilous-path/(the orange links within are interesting too)

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2012, 04:19:33 pm
content: logic BORAT ? was this made for glorious country of kazachstan ?

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2012, 04:56:05 pm
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on June 25, 2012, 04:04:31 pmVery cool picture. What I said wasn't worded all that well. Security screws are CLEARLY just their way of forcing consumers into the store. However I think there is more to the strategy than money. As I said, the user replaceable batteries of the older MBPs like I have cost exactly the same as the newer non-user replaceable ones. There is probably some small savings in packaging of the batteries by making them non-user replaceable. IMO the packaging difference is probably largely eaten up by the extra labor it costs to have a tech replace the battery. But it does bring people into the Apple stores and I think that is the entire reason they do it. It generates sales opportunities.As far as gluing the battery in, I think it's just stupid. The labor cost is clearly much higher and while the battery has more capacity, the cost increase is probably at least half due to the increased labor cost to replace it. I think if they had given it a bit more thought they could have used a traditional screw mounting scheme and saved the customer a bit of labor cost. Glue just seems like such a hack to me.Other things people complain about like the screen I think are legitimate mechanical design issues. Sandwiching a LCD and two pieces of glass together is already bulky enough. I think there is a strong argument that in most cases you'll be replacing the LCD if something goes wrong, and therefore it wasn't worth it to make the whole assembly come apart. My MBP has the old matte screen, which is literally just the lcd and a metal case. If something goes wrong, they're both most likely going to be replaced. Even if the metal is fine, the cost of the new LCD vastly overshadows the cost of the metal. Now I have seen newer glossy screen versions with cracked glass. The funny thing is no one has ever bothered to even replace the glass. It looks absolutely horrible with more than a few degrees of viewing angle, but it's perfectly fine straight on. They've never considered it worth the trouble of replacing.The screen is done the way it is to hit a target formfactor, not to try and screw over people repairing it.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2012, 05:02:26 pm
content: When it's time to say it's bullshit quality go ahead and say it, you piece of shitUser banned for 2 days from posting

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2012, 09:50:47 pm
content: So, how do you fix this? Not buy Apple products? That wouldn't do it - there are plenty of other idiots out there -Maybe there should be some "minimum" repairability(sp?) standard - like all consumables (batteries for example) must be easily replaceable for end users - But the last thing we need is more legislation complicating product design.Maybe provide an incentive for manufacturers to produce reliable goods - they are perhaps responsible for the recycled goods - oh wait, WEEE tried and failed.So?

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 25, 2012, 10:21:56 pm
content: Greetings EEVBees:--Not only was the moderated post unnecessarily hostile, it was unclear to me who the poster was talking to, and so may have offended more people than intended. Note that an earlier poster was able to avoid, moderation, by using a common, four letter abbreviation for his angry and profane comment. I think Simon has hit upon a rather good solution by leaving the post up, but imposing a 2 day ban as a sanction. This way people can get an idea what led to the sanction, and not, perhaps, imagine the post to be more offensive that it actually was. Moderation is definitely improving.--All that being said, I have a question for the posters in this thread, hoping that I will not engender, more wasteful and meaningless hostility, but just more reasoned argument. Does anyone here seriously contend that by making its products increasingly more fortified against even the most mundane maintenance, that Apple is merely pursuing efficiency, and not trying to create a proprietary empire?--What if you were forced to buy a new car every 2 to 4 years? Or else, take it to the dealership where they could remove the special proprietary glue, in order to do a $300 oil change, an $800 tuneup, or a put on a $2000 set of tires. And if you were to need a new transmission, you could only sell your beloved hooptee for scrap metal and get a new, and very different one, lacking some of the now obsolete features, you had grown to depend on. And used vehicles would be relatively new, few, and far between.--If all manufacturers were to take up this approach, then, eventually, many members of this Blog who use DMMs and soldering irons, will be consigned to nostalgic fuddyduddydom, working only on quaint anachronisms."I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled."P. G. Wodehouse 1881 1975Best RegardsClear Ether

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2012, 10:33:45 pm
content: Both Android and iOS devices suck. Though if I were forced to use one, I would use an Android.Why, well the biggest problem for me is that the battery life is frankly awful. My Nokia 3510i gets a good week, maybe two, of battery life, and it's about 7 years old, still going well with the original li-ion cell. But most smartphones can only last a day. That's a deal breaker for me.

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 12:15:55 am
content: In all this discussion, it is made to seem like Apple replacement parts carry some sort of massive cost difference compared to their "generic" PC equivalents. Of course generic must be in quotes because Apple doesn't operate any differently than any other vendor. Replacement batteries for non-Retina models are 130$ which is actually right in line with other vendors. That includes the cost of getting it replaced FYI. A new motherboard and processor will run you 200$ or so on ebay. That's not outrageous at all compared to other brands.The fact is you don't get very tight levels of integration and fit/finish on products that are easy to repair. Cell phones aren't this way, neither are tablets. There is room for creativity and excellence, but if you don't think you're getting that from Apple then you sure as hell can't think you're getting it from the multitude of PC vendors who produce large quantities of generic crap with massively varying quality levels. Why do you think MS is making a surface tablet, or why Google made the Nexus One? They know OEMs are "race to the bottom" junk vendors.

author: joelby
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 12:23:42 am
content: I don't think that non-user-servicability is the primary aim - I think that more compact form factors and design purity are their ultimate goals, and in mobile devices it's inevitable that things become more difficult to work on.Just look at all the small shops that have popped up to repair screens and replace batteries, and the proliferation of spare parts on eBay. With these new, supposedly unfixable computers - wait a few months for spares, refurbished, and knock-off parts to filter through to retail channels, and for people to write repair guides, and no-one will worry about it anymore.The non-upgradeable memory is a bit more disappointing, but there are a few good reasons for it - bad third-party RAM and mechanical problems with connectors cause many issues, most users never upgrade the memory, SODIMMs have been around for years and are thus relatively large compared to the chips themselves, and so on.

author: McPete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 06:03:02 am
content: Threads like this are the reason we can't have nice things.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 06:10:10 am
content: I don't follow

author: McPete
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 06:37:05 am
content: A dismal joke/comment at the state of vitriolic conduct. Feel free to ignore!

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 09:23:44 am
content: Quote from: SgtRock on June 25, 2012, 10:21:56 pmI'm fairly sure they're doing both. I don't much like being locked out of hardware, either from a maintenance perspective, or a software one, but at least in Apple's case the products are generally good. And on the few occasions where I *have* needed to get inside something to fix/upgrade, it's been possible, just somtimes hard. And they're doing exactly what every single other hardware manufacturer would do, if they could afford it. Apples pockets are just deeper and their top to bottom integration lets them do more.However some things are definitely more about the product design rather than about making things difficult. The new retina screen, for example, is tough to repair, with the whole top of the laptop being the display assembly, rather than it being a shell with a display inside as a seperate unit. Yet I can see the advantages of doing that, in keeping the unit thin, and not having additional layers getting in the way of the display. Repair possibilities seem largely limited to replacing the whole display, rather than swapping any of the innards, but provided it is still *possible* I'm not sure it's the end of the world.However using 5-pointed screws? That's just plain wankery.I hope it's just a phase they're all going through, and once the dam finally breaks on controlling content, they'll stop, because it's an expensive waste of everyone's time, as with software DRM, etc.QuoteWell, you're not *forced* to buy a new Apple product every 2-4 years, and they're considerably cheaper than a new car. Computers are generally well supported for a long time. Phones, pads, etc. less so - maybe 2-3 years before you can kiss goodbye to updates (though nothing stops you from continuing to use them as-is). I mean, our household has many Apple products, we like most of them a lot. But I don't think many of them are particularly new. There's an iPad 2, which is over a year old, and thats easily the newest. I like the new stuff they've brought out since, but I simply don't need any of it yet, because my old stuff works fine.I get that some people *must* have the latest gear, and I envy their money if they can afford to keep up, but it's certainly not necessary. And to be honest, it's not an Apple specific thing. Long before Apple came along, most people I know upgraded their damn phone once or twice a year. Indeed the folks that I know who have iPhones probably upgrade *less* than those who are using Android phones or whatever.But I follow your general argument. Regularly Apple wave some new shiny thing in people's faces, and it offers a few new features people want, but at the same time, quitely removes some previously available freedom. And once its accepted, everyone else follows suit, and soon people forget that their phones used to have removable batteries. And some people complain, but most don't care because they've never removed the battery from their phone except by accident.However, I'm sorry to report, but cars are *already* doing down this route. A modern car is computer controlled, and I can assure you they're locked down pretty tight, with the main ECU in a sealed can and communication around the car encrypted. New parts, even relatively mundane ones, are coded to the car and can typically only be fitted by the dealer, unless hacked.The newer model of my own car has several new features which I'd like, and which are *entirely* software based, with the onboard computer being exactly the same. However if I want them, I have to buy a new model, as the manufacturer will not release an update for cars even a few *months* old.These things are, of course, hackable - but in the case of a car, you may not only invalidate your warranty, but could potentially run the risk of invalidating your insurance...I suspect car manufacturers are fleecing individual customers for *far* more money than Apple are.Ultimately I think that the possibilities for repairing electronics are reducing *regardless* of the deliberate attempts to obfuscate or obstruct. People simply want smaller yet more powerful devices, and that means miniaturistion and integration, which results in modern hardware consisting of SoC devices with only a small amount of supporting circuitry. I think as a result, unless a device is built with maintenance *specifically* in mind, its only a matter of time, even if some companies didn't have their foot on the accelerator.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 09:36:00 am
content: I'm not sure why people are trying to justify this.I don't buy the idea that sustainability has to be sacrificed for better looking computers. I think it's a convenient excuse for them, and I think it's a value that Apple simply chooses not to pursue. What they choose to pursue, as has been mentioned, is "sales opportunities", cheap build cost, and a protected marketplace. In essence: widen the profit margin. If you think that's okay, and to be expected, then there's nothing I can say to you... just shake my head. Yes, that DOES mean they screw people, and its wrong. And it's not like they don't have the money to do it properly.Part of the problem is that at companies, such as Apple, the decisions about how to produce, where to produce, and what to do with the profits, is made by a small group of about 20 people. Statistically speaking, a small group of people like this cannot represent the interests of the general public, let alone the employees themselves!But people love it. They see the commercials and billboards, they work their menial jobs that pay the same or less over decades, and then they go buy gadgets (on credit) that are rammed down their throat every waking minute of the day, so they can unwind with a bit of Angry birds. (or, login to forums and throw fits at each other about who has better glass) Who cares if some emaciated brown people toiled at gunpoint in squalid conditions to make it possible. It's my damn god given right to keep buying shit I don't need with money I don't have! And anyone who thinks we should make Steve Jobs or whoever to take responsibility for the problems they create is a commie pinko bastard, and should be stoned. Money is god!I don'tneeda Rolls Royce laptop or phone. crApple can shove it.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 09:47:14 am
content: My personal choice is to never buy any product that seals in any part of it that is a consumable item, to me buying an iPod or any other item by any manufacturer where this is the case makes as much sense as buying a car with a full tank of petrol and a welded shut filler cap and having to buy a new car when the tank is empty. No one is going to sell me any product where I know in two years or less I have to replace it just because the battery is worn out. Other non serviceable parts would also be a contention in the purchasing decision. To a certain extent I accept that some things are going to require specialized tools and knowledge for service, but it grieves me to part with hard earned cash for any item that is basically one use only and then disposed of in otherwise perfect order other than the need for one consumable item. Also the world can not continue to support the present trend. I also think that the making of of things to last gives a certain satisfaction to the maker, when I build things like gates and railings I like to think that they will be around in a hundred years time it is upsetting to see anything that I have made getting scrapped a few months after it has been made.

author: Omicron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 10:22:42 am
content: For what it's worth: the battery in the new retina macbook IS replaceable. It's clearly listed here:http://www.apple.com/support/macbookpro/service/battery/The only drawbacks I can see is that you can't replace it yourself and that replacement is more expensive than it used to be with the older model. But then it's a larger capacity battery as well.I had an old HP-28S calculator die on me a while back. I bought it more than 20 years ago. No chance of repairing that. You can't even open it without destroying the case and even if you could there's only 2 chips inside that are both custom parts. So this phenomenon is hardly new or limited to one company.

author: SgtRock
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 10:25:58 am
content: Dear Timelessbeing:--Well spoken tovarishch, next time don't hold back. Its a good thing that those less expensive phones and computers, are not built from materials and devices, made by Third World slaves, in Shenzhen. Like you I only by the cheaper, built to a price, devices, that are constructed here in the West, and provide no wages for emaciated brown people. I'm sorry, I forgot, there pretty much are no such products. Oh, well, sniff, there goes our moral superiority over genocidal racist companies like Apple, or actually all companies, now that you mention it. Just remember, no mater what happens in the third world, it is always the fault of a western company. If only that amiable dunce Reagan had not pushed over that tottering monolith, the USSR, where the rate of automobile ownership was markedly less than in Soweto township."Before I came here I was confused about this subject. Having listened to your lecture I am still confused. But on a higher level."Enrico Fermi 1901 1954Best RegardsClear Ether

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 10:55:32 am
content: Quote from: _Sin on June 26, 2012, 09:23:44 amAbout the time to realise you may have bought the wrong car. The ECU in mine is configurable, and at a price you can get factory support for various levels of enhancement.Quotesee above I can purchase a variety of factory go-fast. Warranty and insurance implications vary by circumstance.QuoteNumerically or proportionally? At least with thecar manufacturer I have optionsfor customisation. Who wants a car or a computer that is nothing other than an appliance. They are tools and should be able to be adapted to individual usage. Not restricted to some dull idea of adequacy decided by Apple, Microsoft or Toyota.QuotePeople also want longevity, adaptability and environmental responsibility, you are likely to see action in these areas too. As the personal device market matures.

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 11:59:05 am
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 26, 2012, 10:55:32 amProportionally. I haven't seen the accounts of Apple, nor of the major car manufacturers. But I can certainly see the likely profit margin in (for example) a replacement screen for an Apple device versus a replacement wing mirror.And yeah, I bought a car where that's more of an issue than some others. I did so with my eyes open, so I don't regret the choice at all - it was based on what the car would be like to drive, rather than what it would be like to service, because frankly I plan on doing a lot more of the former and not much of the latter. I reckon most people are the same, and I'd be surprised if that trend towards locking out the end user didn't continue in all types of product, at least for a little while.As to who wants a computer which is simply an appliance, rather than a configurable tool? I would suspect the answer is "most people". Based at least on observing the success of Apple, who are (these days) pretty much built around delivering exactly that, and reap enormous profits.QuoteIn terms of longevity, I'd suggest that Apple are providing about as much as the market desires. My older Apple gear all still works just fine - it gets replaced when I want/need something new, not because it has itself expired.In terms of adaptability, I am not sure in what significant way Apple's products are *not* adaptable, nor what the market actually wants.Apple's software eco-system, though to some extent closed and controlled, is however very healthy and diverse. Their hardware is increasingly "what you buy is what you get", but it is still, generally, configurable at point of purchase (for which Apple charge a princely sum, admitedly). In what way are Apples products not adaptable, in a way that the average Joe cares about? The most blatant example of this seems to be the on-board ram on the latest MacBooks, which I don't like one bit, but beyond that I'm drawing a bit of a blank.I'd actually be interested to know what proportion of the general public has ever purchased a ram upgrade for a computer. It seems like such a trivial and obvious thing to me, but perhaps not to everyone.And as for environmental concerns, I would like to know in what way Apple are any less responsible than everyone else?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 12:37:04 pm
content: Quote from: _Sin on June 26, 2012, 11:59:05 amWTF said anything about service? I can modify the behavior of the ECU to make driving the pleasure no appliance will ever provide. I can increase economy in doing so too. My car doesn't need to be forever configured in the numbskull warranty preservation mode.QuoteI'd have to agree with you there, most people are too stupid to ever drive well or appreciate the engineering behind a good vehicle. Hell there are even people out there that think front wheel drive is a good thing.Quoteagain your right, while ever the population is over represented by the clueless, nanny mode will be an ever present nuisance.QuoteI note your concession that the market is unfairly skewed to cater for the clueless and the incapable.QuoteThe market for the most part is too stupid to know what it really wants or needs. Good bucks for Apple, the dark bottomdrawers full of last years models testament to the products lack of adaptability.Quotehealthy? for Apple or the zombie clickers content to limit diversity to the confines Apple has imposed?QuoteI don't give a flying fig about average people, I'm talking about tools for engineers and others who've evolved past mouth breathing.QuoteNon replaceable batteries? Engineered obsolescence for the gullible.

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 01:24:50 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 26, 2012, 12:37:04 pmWell yes, my car also offers me the ability to configure how it drives, albeit within some parameters set by the manufacturer. Fortunately those limits are pretty marginal and I don't find myself particularly constrained by them. I mean it's limited to 155mph, but without the limiter it might do 170. I don't know in what circumstance that's ever going to be an issue for me.My point, however, was not "all cars are completely locked down". I was merely responding to SgtRock's point as to whether people would buy a car which was not user serviceable in a similar way to Apple's products. And the simple fact is that many cars these days are exactly that and people still buy them.QuoteAnd yet they *are* replaceable. Simply donate another portion of your hard earned cash to Apple, and they will oblige. Likewise for disposal, assuming anyone actually pays attention to advice not to bin old batteries (or devices which contain them), I'm sure Apple will dispose of them for you. And to be honest they're probably quite serviceable by any vaguely competent non-Apple engineer too. I'm sure it won't take too long to defeat the dreaded glue...As for being tools for engineers... yeah, Apple don't really make those. But I don't think they market them as such either, so I'm not sure what the problem is.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 01:38:59 pm
content: Quote from: _Sin on June 26, 2012, 01:24:50 pmYou never know! Why risk missing out! I probably don't need 500+ Nm of torque on an everyday basis either but it's nice to have for playtime.QuoteThat's fine as long as nobody See's fit to tell me I should be using fruit computers or a Camry sports.QuoteNo problem just some incessant fan-boy static from a few fruit fans. This is after all an engineering forum, so I'm happy to pull the chain of anyone suggesting I use inappropriate tools.

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 02:20:03 pm
content: Fan-boy stuff is wierd. I don't get it. No product is a panacea. And that applies as much to telling someone to buy a particular thing, as it does to telling someone not to.The answer to the question "What computer should I get?" or for that matter "What car should I get" is never "Buy an X, they're the best"The appropriate response, IMHO, is "What do you want it for?", and then proceed from there.

author: WorldPowerLabs
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 02:28:41 pm
content: Quote from: _Sin on June 26, 2012, 09:23:44 amMy vehicles are 15 and 13 years old. There's no updating the firmware on these... at least not by a flash procedure. No GPS, no voice-activated controls, no keyless start button, no iPod interface, no satellite radio, etc. One of the two hasn't even been made since the 2000 model year. However, they both serve their purposes (semi-beater van for moving large items and driving in populated areas, nice V8-powered coupe for fun). Why do I keep them? I like them -- it takes time to become truly familiar with something a complex as a car. Not just how it handles, but also how to disassemble and repair things. They also happen to be inexpensive to keep around. The coupe because it is very reliable, and the van because parts are dirt-cheap and available everywhere. Plus, although they do consume fossil fuel, I still consider them to be a better option than buying a new hybrid (or car of any sort) since manufacturing a new car consumes raw materials and energy and generates considerable pollution (often the worst of it ends up in "developing" nations). Also, they are both rear-wheel drive. I can't stand front-wheel drive vehicles, and I don't like the MPG hit of full-time AWD. A family member's Subaru with the 4-cylinder non-turbo engine gets about the same gas mileage as my V8.

author: A Hellene
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 03:00:33 pm
content: Hehe! TheVirus Immunitymyth of Apple, one of the company's strong selling points, is fading away... But, I guess that this really means nothing to the hordes of the Apple fanbois because their iGadgetfinishseems to be more important to them than the security of their wedding pictures or their other data files.Quote from: PCWorld.com (Jun 24, 2012)Source:Apple Quietly Pulls Claims of Virus ImmunityAnother headline from "The Inquirer" states that aMacbook Pro Retina display glitch is discovered, which is being referred to as 'ghosting,' while its is unclear whether the issue is due to a faulty batch of IPS panels, or it is an issue with all new Retina display MacBooks. According toThe Inquirer, "SHINY GADGET DESIGNER[...] was unavailable for comment at the time of writing."It seems that even god, the fanbois' god, has problems. But this seems to be perfectly justified in their minds, since theirother godcould not create the world right in the first place (remember, we are stated to beimperfect, and their currently imperfect world is patiently awaiting for a revision they call theApocalypse)...-George

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 05:05:07 pm
content: It would be fine if the claims that the new Retina MBP isn't repairable were actually true. Sadly they're not. You can replace the screen, you can replace the battery, you can replace the logic board. You can replace every part of it. They're simply made it so you replace parts in a somewhat more granular fashion. For being an "all engineering" forum there are a lot of people who love their sweeping generalization that ignore reality.Also, the security of my stuff is important to me. But the implication SEEMS to be there is better out there. Windows sure isn't it... And the reality is Windows and OSX are the only two OS's out there for every day use.

author: ToBeFrank
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 07:21:49 pm
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on June 26, 2012, 09:36:00 amNor should they since as a public company they are bound by law to represent the interests of their shareholders.

author: ToBeFrank
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 07:22:32 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 26, 2012, 12:37:04 pmWhat vehicle is this?

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 09:02:52 pm
content: Quote from: Omicron on June 26, 2012, 10:22:42 amWhich is exactly what will land more electronics in the landfill. Stop defending it.@ SgtRockI think you missed the point. Apple is not unique in perpetuating our irresponsible system of production, but they are giving it an extra boost. What happens in the 3rd world is NOT always the fault of a Western company. I just think Western companies can do better than this.@ SinI agree. From what I've seen, car manufacturers are going down the same route. By the way, there is a groupfighting this.Quote from: _Sin on June 26, 2012, 01:24:50 pmI'm sure it won't take long either. People with good intentions can be quite ingenious. But you can count on Apple to keep trying to defeat them.Quote from: ToBeFrank on June 26, 2012, 07:21:49 pm... who increasingly value share prices above all else.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 09:17:04 pm
content: Quote from: ToBeFrank on June 26, 2012, 07:22:32 pmVehicles! / Can never be happy with just one.

author: ToBeFrank
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 09:19:24 pm
content: Quote from: Uncle Vernon on June 26, 2012, 09:17:04 pmIs it a secret which one or ones you can modify the behavior of the ECU?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 09:29:25 pm
content: Quote from: ToBeFrank on June 26, 2012, 09:19:24 pmIs it a secret which one or ones you can modify the behavior of the ECU?No secret just some AU/US based Fords and the odd Dodge product. Nowhere in the ECU you cannot go, with the right tools. Many are after market products of the Manufacturer. You just need to know where to source.

author: Omicron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 10:33:15 pm
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on June 26, 2012, 09:02:52 pmI'm not sure how you draw that conclusion. If I buy a 2000 dollar laptop and the battery dies before it's time, am I really going to say: "gee, a 200 dollar repair is just too much hassle, let's just buy another 2000 dollar laptop instead and throw this one in the bin". That seems a little unlikely to me.Now don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a world were we still had the kind of repairability we all love in old HP and Tek instruments. And if those kinds of products were still available I'd be one of the first to buy them. It just seems to me that any topic that happens to mentions the "Apple" word turns unnecessary ugly really quickly. It seems any rational discussion quickly becomes impossible and if you even try to balance the discussion you get stamped a "fanboy" or worse. I'm getting a little tired of that to be honest.

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 10:53:16 pm
content: Quote from: Omicron on June 26, 2012, 10:33:15 pmDon't kid yourself.Quote from: Omicron on June 26, 2012, 10:33:15 pmThis should not deter us from having serious discussions.

author: Omicron
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 11:02:44 pm
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on June 26, 2012, 10:53:16 pmWell I assume that there do exist people who have that much money to waste. But that can't be a very large percentage. And I somehow doubt that good repairability would sway them not to act that foolishly.I can honestly say I've never thrown away any type of computing equipment, be it Apple or anything else. Everything I bought is either still in use or has been sold second hand or donated to friends or family. I've been a professional software developer for almost 20 years now so it's not that I am new to this either.Heck, I even still have my 20 year old HP-28S calculator. And that thing is broken and utterly unrepairable. Just that it's been a trusty companion for so long that I can't seem to get myself to throw it away :-)

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2012, 11:26:13 pm
content: @ OmicronI believe you.To me you sound like someone who isn't wasteful. I am the the same.However, I don't have the same faith in society. However big or small the percentage of people with more money than sense, pentalobular screws are going to make the problem worse.If a person knows they can take their Macbook to the repair guy on the corner to have their battery replaced for, say $100, then yes I think that would sway them.

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 12:48:29 am
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on June 26, 2012, 11:26:13 pmMy wife can take her unibody MBP to the Apple store and get a new battery installed for 130$+tax. I can just go buy one from the Apple store for 130 and pop it in myself. Honestly I'd rather take it to the Apple store than some random repair guy. By the same token I'd send a broken Dell back to Dell over the same repair dude.I don't accept that Apple products are "not repairable" but it seems obvious that they have a smaller number of replacement parts.

author: _Sin
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 12:07:15 pm
content: Non-standard screws are a bit stupid. Especially as it's so trivial to simply buy a cheap non-standard screwdriver with which to remove them.I think the screws are just Apple's answer to everyone elses "warranty void if removed" sticker. i.e. something trivial to bypass, but which nonetheless leaves you in no doubt that the manufacturer doesn't want you poking around in there. I doubt there are many people on this forum who would let either put them off.And I doubt Apple are stupid enough to think it's going to actually stop anyone who really wanted to get in.Dumb, but not an obstacle.

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 05:22:33 pm
content: I agree, the screws are stupid. They actually keep changing them every couple years. They used to be tri-wings, then pentalobes.But when I realized that the install of the new battery was included in the cost of the battery, I stopped caring. I'm going to buy the battery from Apple anyway, so I don't really need to remove it. The only real annoyance is that you can't disconnect the battery without removing it. That's just poor foresight in the design.

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 05:35:09 pm
content: Please, lock this thread. I've had enough

author: jerry507
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 05:36:58 pm
content: You're just upset your rude behavior got you banned

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 05:38:02 pm
content: Quote from: DaveXRQ on June 27, 2012, 05:35:09 pmdude welcome back. relax! let them win la! you got nothin to lose

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 05:39:40 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 27, 2012, 05:38:02 pm

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 06:30:48 pm
content: Shoot, wondered what had happened to DaveXRQ, it had been suddenly civil........Welcome back?!

author: T4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2012, 06:37:10 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on June 27, 2012, 06:30:48 pmI figured i would walk off with a laptop that costs much less... nothing to lose!Thanks anyway.