Yamaha YSM20R Pick and Place - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: kaevee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2024, 02:13:47 am
content: We're in the process of setting up a new SMT line, and we're exploring the capabilities of the Yamaha YSM20R, particularly with its dual heads. We have a question regarding the pick-and-place functionality: Will both heads on the YSM20R simultaneously pick up components from feeders located on both sides, or is there a specific configuration or limitation to consider? Your insights and experiences with this machine would be greatly appreciated as we plan the optimization of our production process.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2024, 03:22:03 am
content: I don't know the Yamaha line up but smtnet has a lot more people that do. I've got a dual head machine and and dual beam machine. I'm not sure if other brands are the same as UIC but the dual beam one can be picking and one can be placing or they can place on non overlapping areas but they can only pick from their own side. With the dual head machine (GX11) it has got 2 heads with different spindle sizes on a single thing that moves, so they can't move independently. Just gives you a wider range of nozzles / grabbers for odd form.

author: kaevee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2024, 04:11:34 am
content: Quote from: loki42 on February 22, 2024, 03:22:03 amProbably, it is the same with YSM20R too, where the heads will pick up only from their own side.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2024, 08:19:55 am
content: 1 beam for front 1 for rear would be my understanding, optimal throughput is probably achieved in dual lane config. Yamaha is quite good for video of the machine and workflow diagrams to understand a lot of the platform without asking a rep. I can't recall if its Yamaha or Hanwha that has/had a 4 head machine where the board gets passed through all 4 quadrants of the machine to be serviced by each head.Much like a line made of of multiple machines, the catch with multiple gantries is balancing the load between each machine or gantry so buying the extra planning and balancing software gets more important the more efficient you want to be. The 1 head focus of these newer platforms removes ending up with gantries or machines that have nothing to do because the current assembly doesn't need their capability.

author: kaevee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2024, 03:48:54 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on February 22, 2024, 08:19:55 amIn YSM20R dual head configuration, the front head will pick up from front feeders and rear head will pick up from rear feeders. This was confirmed by the rep.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2024, 04:11:55 pm
content: Quote from: kaevee on February 22, 2024, 03:48:54 pmSo from a purely theoretical standpoint, potentially there is some level of delay where one head is over the board placing and the other is ready but waiting for a clear route to access the PCB. This risk is zero (or near it) if run in dual lane, machines that split the load the other way are potentially more efficient for single lane configurations. You'd probably need to be gang picking to increase the risk.Are you building volumes where the speed and efficiency matters? For smaller batches, efficient use of barcodes, storage solutions, kitting teams and smart feeders will make a far bigger difference.

author: kaevee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2024, 06:21:49 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on February 22, 2024, 04:11:55 pmWe are setting up the facility for contract manufacturing. We expect to have a mix of high volume and also small batches as we are targeting different industry segments. Speed and efficiency certainly matters in certain cases.

author: mon2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2024, 06:58:04 pm
content: Hi. We have an older Yamaha machine and love the product and their support from the local (new) rep and the factory. The machine continues to amaze us on what it can place. We used a special custom nozzle out of Shenzhen China to place 01005 parts - granted had some pick errors but we pulled it off. Just to see if it could be done. Went to Nepcon in Shenhen China last October and these new machines look amazing. We are somewhat constrained for floorspace so may settle for the YSM10R but YSM20R is on the wish list for our upgrades. If you are ok with it, will share your details and this thread with our local rep for Yamaha. They can contact you and answer any questions that you may have.PS: They do have good 'high grade copies' of the feeders (Shenzhen, CN - can share more contact details upon request) for this machine but some feature is lost if not using the original. Just a thought for you to consider. Have you used the Yamaha product before? To us, we are only now getting very comfortable with the software for setup / use of the PCBA so wish to carry it forward onto the next platform. SMTNET is a good forum for you to join as well.PS#2: Not that you asked but perhaps will in the near future - highly recommend the KOKI Halogen Free solder paste. We use the same for our TQFP / BGA / 0402 / 0603 / 0805 parts on our many products we build. It is a great solder solder paste. We are using (no clean) S3X58-HF1100-3, Solder Paste 500 gm jars. We do mix with an external mixer before using. Mixers are available out of Shenzhen for a fair cost.Update from our local Yamaha rep:YSM20R is not able to pick up parts from the other side but YRM20 and Sigma series can, we call it overdrive.Trans-Tec has a strong team in India/Asia, if you could, please help us to get the contact info and I’d like to pass it to Trans-Tec India team .I will PM you.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 22, 2024, 09:43:07 pm
content: I'd have a go asking on smtnet, higher volume is very rare here. Fuji seem like the dominant player in the space, the older systems can be picked up at sensible prices and the multiple coupled machine / head design means they are all able to pick / place at the same time and you end up with pretty ludicrous through put. Panasonic is also popular in that space. I'd focus on what you can get modern feeders for especially ones that handle spicing well.

author: kaevee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 01:43:32 am
content: Quote from: loki42 on February 22, 2024, 09:43:07 pmWe are also exploring the Panasonic NPM-D3A which is dual head with 16 Nozzles per head. There is a catch though. It supports only 34 dual tape feeders.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 03:38:36 am
content: Yeah that's normal for the faster / higher end stuff like the Fuji / Panasonic as they assume you'll be using multiple of them in a line. Some brands all their marketing will show one pnp running solo. Other it'll always be a group. The am100 or npm-dx look like what you want if you're looking at a single Panasonic machine. I think with the Fuji stuff you choose an enclosure and how many beams / heads you want.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 10:28:58 am
content: Quote from: loki42 on February 23, 2024, 03:38:36 amFuji NXT you fit modules on bases and build dense high throughput lines, Fujis party trick is easily swapping between optimal head types so each module can be the ideal module for the product. AIMEx would be their more conventional machine, still has the party tricks.Panansonic has high capacity flexible machines like the AM100, the slim dense machines and machines in between.Hanwha has the slim dense fast range and the "conventional" 60 front 60 back ranges that range from pretty quick to stupid quick.Yamahas mix is much like Hawha'sJukis range has been updated heavily it is not dissimilar to Yamaha/Hanwha but it still has the "2 machines stuck together" FX-3RA model - a style that others have dropped.Mirae - YawnKulicke and Soffa (Assembleon) has a standard sort of platform in iFlex which essentially requires you to have multiple machines as they are not as flexible as the new models everyone else makes. It also has monsters like the IX 502 where you have a large long machine, but you can add/rent extra robots to drop in the top when you need to - you also need another machine at the end to handle your larger ICs and connectors.ASM have a scalable capacity feature like K&S where you can sneak gantries into machines, don't seem to have taken the slim route.Mimot - massive capacity machines (added for fun)Europlacer/Mycronic High feeder capacity fast changeover machines, do have faster options but nothing like what the others can do in the same space. Non-conventional feeder types makes owning lots cheaper.Essemtec, Pretty UI and dispensing features, no volume/highspeed optionsUniversal - little bit like Europlacers but more expensive to own a lot of feeders.

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 11:24:26 am
content: Quote from: SMTech on February 23, 2024, 10:28:58 amUniversal currently has the two machines stuck together thing too, the 120 spindle fuzions. Quad beam. I got the 3 Universal machines because they were very fast, did odd form well and were easy to pick up second hand. The docs are mostly very good. I think the company was big and successful a long time ago and still has all the management but none of the engineers. Their user website runs on Lotus Domino... the copyright at the bottom of the pages says 2002...

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 11:46:51 am
content: Quote from: loki42 on February 23, 2024, 11:24:26 amThe older Genesis machines used to be pretty common on the 2nd user market in the UK, haven't spotted a new machine than those however. They technically have a UK representative but IPP seems to be a company its competitors have never heard of (neither had I) and I think the relationship is newish. IIRC Universals current lineup looks very similar to the lineup 15 years ago but with some rebranding and cosmetic tweaks, it seems like a nice platform, I suspect $$$ new. I forgot they lumped the doubled up machines under one banner. I'm not sure they are quite as dead in the water as you think, like K&S they have fingers in other pies.Personally if I were looking at a UIC machine I think I would want to be able to configure a 4 head machine however I want; say 2 spindles, two "7s" or even a 7 covering a whole side and a spindles the other or take a party trick from Fuji and make the heads user swappable so this can be done in the field as requirements change.Now the Contact C5 from Versatec, that is a dead machine from an living-dead company.....

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 12:12:21 pm
content: I think the small number of companies that have uic often have a tons of them. Mine say stuff like line 9 machine 5 etc on them.I've seen a few videos of the new ones in action. there's a bunch of nice factory tours from this group:https://youtu.be/2bd5Iq6oE9Y?si=5rivYSvTQhlXmJuAthey've got a few different suppliers.Though obviously Yamaha and Panasonic can use their machines to make the 100s of other products they make.Oh and you can change the heads and buy other head options from new. I assume other platforms make it easy and not a few days of effort per machine.

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 01:13:05 pm
content: The Fujj head swap is super slick, I've seen that at an exhibition. ASM and K&S I think involve a some kind of dedicated crane thing, a bit more involved as it is a gantry/robot module but possibly still lowish downtime. Cool if that kind of thing suits you and if it is even realistic in real life.What seems to put the cat in the pigeons is how fast some of the Yamaha/Hanwha machines can place with a conventional inline head while also being able to handle larger parts reducing the need to balance the capabilities of your line. They also, if your timing is right, do killer deals that can make the premium charged for other features offered elsewhere questionable in value.If I was buying a new line today, I'd look first at Europlacer/Mycronic but I know what those systems cost and for 1 loaded up IIneo I can have perhaps 2 Hanwha or an AM100 and change. The Hanwha system would blitz the IIneo for speed during placement and match it on many other metrics.However Europlacer will tell you they have put their systems against fast lines like 3 Juki RS1s and beaten them, because the time savings between jobs was massive in a Sub-con high mix environment, but also because the real place rate in a true workload for many of these fast machines is way way lower than even IPC numbers in some cases. If you are buying a new machine, simulate, test in real life, and if your requirement is big enough, maybe even get the supplier to setup a "Proof of concept line" before you sign (this is a thing).I would take a long hard look at the software tools for NPI and job setup processes and balance those against cost support and servicing.

author: kaevee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2024, 02:19:30 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on February 23, 2024, 01:13:05 pmI am exploring the possibility of buying an AM100 + NPM-D3A.What are the implications of buying an AM100? I am concerned about obsolescence.Further, if I go with Panasonic, do I need to buy any optional software?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2024, 02:21:15 am
content: Quote from: kaevee on February 22, 2024, 02:13:47 amMy Samsung-made Quad QSA30A has "synchro-pick" which allows it to pick up parts on all heads if the feeders are spaced exactly the same as the pitch between the heads. I have not used this feature. There is a setup parameter where you tell it how accurately the feeder spacing needs to be to allow this. If the spacing is fairly close to the right distance, then the added time to sequentially pick 3 parts is not going to be a whole lot, since it involves a very small XY move.But, I guess you could save a few tenths of a second for each cycle.Jon

author: kaevee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2024, 02:47:31 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on February 25, 2024, 02:21:15 amThank you for providing this information. I've consistently gained more knowledge from forum discussions than from manufacturer representatives. One significant challenge for initial buyers lies in obtaining detailed specifications. In my recent discussions with various vendors, most have shared only brochures and tend to withhold information unless explicitly requested.Moreover, the quotes I receive are occasionally unclear.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 25, 2024, 03:52:43 pm
content: Make sure whatever you buy has GOOD manuals! The first machine I got, a Philips-brand CSM made by Yamaha, had quite good manuals. The second machine, the Quad-brand made by Samsung, had absolutely the worst manuals I have ever seen for something so complex. Fortunately, somebody hooked me up with the guy who did the factory training on it. I mean the most BASIC stuff was not in the manual. For instance, the machine coordinates are obvious, +X to the right, +Y away from you as you stand at the front. BUT, the PC board coordinates are +X to the LEFT! This actually makes a bit of sense, as the corner that is fixed on the conveyor is the front right corner, so all coords grow away from that. And, maybe this coordinate system is configurable in the ini file, so they can't say which system has been configured. But, this REALLY had me going in circles. The factory training guy was a godsend. He was a bit rusty on some of the details, but I sent him screenshots and he was able to explain a lot of stuff.One other thing, if you are going to get an older machine, make sure it was popular at one time. My Quad/Samsung machine is based on the Samsung CP30, which was very popular in the far East at one time, and so lots of spare parts are available.Jon

author: kaevee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 01:58:23 am
content: Quote from: jmelson on February 25, 2024, 03:52:43 pmWe are buying new. Easy access to information and peer support makes life simpler and will definitely impact our decision. At this moment, the choice is between Yamaha or Panasonic. It is not going to be an easy decision, considering this is our first line

author: SMTech
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 08:32:03 am
content: Quote from: kaevee on February 23, 2024, 02:19:30 pmYou would need to dive into exactly what those options are with the distributor. optional software can include BOM/CAD import, multi-machine line management, stock control, software that runs on other workstations, dedicated component/package setup stations, barcodes, database connections, APIs to access those databases etc etc. Basically all of them strip out any functionality that isn't 100% essential to placement and charge money for it. Even collision avoidance is an extra (automatically routing head movement and places so the head won't hit a tall component after placing it).

author: kaevee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 12:35:37 pm
content: Quote from: SMTech on February 26, 2024, 08:32:03 amYes. It seems Panasonic have 9 different licenses for mounter (excluding the basic software included by default). I am expecting a quote from them soon for few of them.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 04:23:17 pm
content: Quote from: kaevee on February 23, 2024, 02:19:30 pmI have been a programmer from way back. So, it was no big deal to write my own programs to convert the output from my CAD package to what the P&P machines needed. All of them are different. My Philips machine had no issue with negative rotation and X coordinates, the Quad had a fit with any minus signs.My programs read in a component list that has a column for rotation to compensate for the assumed rotation in the CAD definition being different from how the part comes in the tape. Then, it reads the P&P file from the CAD package and matches all parts to the component list. It then adjusts the XY coords for how the machine likes them, and flips them for the back side. it then outputs a file that the machine can read in.Jon

author: kaevee
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2024, 04:54:28 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on February 26, 2024, 04:23:17 pmMe too. I can handle the data conversion/transformation wherever needed. On the other hand, I am exploring the options available to integrate the production planning module of our ERP system with mounter. It seems I need to buy a license for "e-link" for ERP integration.

author: glenenglish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2024, 10:40:56 pm
content: ALl machines you are going to need to write some sort of conversion to and from your file format, database etc.I wrote a system to write the Hanwha- Samsung machine files directly. Saves alot of time (instead of standing at the GUI telling it where stuff is... what feeder it is on and where is in my SQL db and updates machine files directly).

author: loki42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2024, 09:38:01 am
content: Ask on smtnet. There's lot of people there who have bought new mainstream machines. There's very few here. The erp integration can be very useful, for my machines CAMx and secs gem is an license extra that lets you remote control the machine easily and gives you events for every part use, mis pick etc. I have mine set up to consume parts from my erp so it's easy to reorder. Newer machines also have a lot of validation options so you can make sure you've loaded the right reel onto the right feeder and put it in the right place.