Brymen BM869, short review (small update added 2013-01-19) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2013, 07:31:04 am
content: I don't need to do a full review on this Brymen BM869. There are three other references to this multimeter series, BM86X, from other sources. The following are detailed examples.On MJ Lorton's youtube videos, very detailed, but of the BM867.By iloveelectronics on this forum, a teardown of the BM867.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/brymen-bm-867-teardown-pictures/A rather lengthy review by a former member here.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/brymen-bm869-review-by-the-eye-of-the-industrial-electrician/Instead I will give my personal points that stand out for me.For me this meter was a no brainer after watching/reading the above reviews. The price was much better than anything else with this build quality and specification. I purchased mine from a company in Poland mainly because I could not find it available to be shipped to me anywhere else. You can read about my experience with this company in this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/bad-service-endemic-in-the-whole-world-now-anyone-deal-with-tme-eu/This is definitely a good buy in high accuracy and safe multimeters. My cost for the BM869 was $241 USD, plus $52 USD for the USB data interface, and another $50 USD for delivery to Chile for a total of $343 USD.It is built very well with thick and tough feeling materials. The Rubber holster is nice and "rubbery" unlike many of the cheap feeling PVC plastic holsters. Everything on the outside of the meter is easy to read and understand. The selector dial is a bit small, but feels pretty good and you can't easily get it stuck between selections. Actually I was not able to get it in between settings. Yes this meter is big and heavy.On the inside, it matches the quality of the feel on the outside. The layout of the input protection is a little messy, but nothing that makes me uncomfortable. The fuses are both rated for 1000V, so based on everything I can see it matches its CAT ratings. The only thing that might be a shortcoming is that the battery wires run through a hole near the input jack for the high amp range. Is this a problem? I don't think so in this case as this meter comes with a UL rating pass label. I am confident that it actually has been tested and passed its ratings. The Uni-T UT71E has this same battery wire arrangement and maybe it isn't a problem for it neither, but the rest of the meter does not meet its CAT ratings in many obvious ways. If I want to feel safe when using a meter, this BM869 is definitely the one I will reach for.All of the case seems to be sealed with rubber seals and o-rings. If not water tight, it is definitely very dust proof.With any test I could throw at the BM869, it appears to be well within specification. It has almost any function I could think an electrician and/or electronics hobbyist could want, and a few more. Dual temperature, dBm with adjustable impedance, conductance, and filtered AC measurement for motor drives are the main outstanding additions to the usual functions. The meter will read its internal temperature if you short out the inputs instead of plugging in a thermocouple. The backlight is OK, not the best but pretty good.What don't I like? Well, the leads I got are rated CATIV 1000V 10A and have nice soft insulation that is maybe silicone. They have very thin shrouded tips that are nice and sharp. However, they seem to have a high relative internal impedance of 0.12 ohms compared to some Uni-T probes I have that have an internal resistance of less than 0.07 ohms. The cover window for the display is made of really nice thick plastic, but the plastic seems a little soft and scratches easily. The holster has those built in probe holders but I find them next to useless in any work I have done and they add quite a bit of unwanted bulk to the meter.So my dislikes are niggly little complaints and for the price of this meter they are really insignificant. If you want a truly well built meter that is going to take a bit of abuse, will be safe to use for high energy circuits, and doesn't cost far too much, then get this meter. I will be working regularly on 600VDC plus equipment in a solar installation and I will feel quite confident using it on this and on my electronics projects too.If you can't find this meter then look for the Amprobe AM-160 as a close relative, or the AM-270 which is less than $90 and appears to built to the same level of quality. These are apparently made by Brymen as their OEM.Additional Information:I realized that I had not mentioned a couple of features that are important points.The first one is that the optional settings for each selector position are remembered after power down. This is very handy for those who prefer to have their own default settings instead of what the manufacturer decides you should have. This is one of the pet peeves of Dave about the Fluke 87V in that it defaults to AC when he would prefer DC.Second: The amp and milliamp range share the same dial position and the meter auto selects which is active based on what input the probe is connected to.Third: The auto power off can be disabled by holding "SELECT" while powering on, or the beep can be disabled by holding "RANGE", but you cannot have no beep and no power off at the same time.I cleaned the tips and the lead resistance dropped from 0.12 ohms to 0.07 ohms. Even though they have a lower resistance than I originally reported, these are not the leads that Brymen supplied in the official review sample to Kiriakos

author: ttp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2013, 11:33:07 am
content: Thanks for sharing your opinionQuote from: Lightages on January 09, 2013, 07:31:04 amI think I got the same leads, BTC branded, isn't it? I didn't like them at first and don't like them too much now. I happen to have a 20+ years old thing with oxidised solder joints on my bench when I got them and it was first test for the leads. They got me very stable readings without too much effort while I had to wiggle and push on Uni-T leads to get similar stable results. In the end I don't use BTC leads for everyday work but they are within reach just in case I need to measure some older PCBs. Fluke TL175 are my favorite probes.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2013, 02:15:08 pm
content: Yes they are BTC branded. I am sure they have their uses as you have discovered but I certainly would prefer something more robust and convertible like the ones mentioned in the other review.

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2013, 04:06:04 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on January 09, 2013, 02:15:08 pmI thought they would supply the silicone leads with the gold plated probe tips with the BM-869? The BM-257 I have comes with those and they are REALLY nice. The silicone rubber insulation feels top quality and the internal resistance is only 0.06R as measured by the BM-867 (which I also own and it comes with the same leads too because I special ordered them). Being top of the line in the 860's series I thought the 869 would come with these leads too. You can see a picture of the leads I have here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/brymen-bm-257-pictures-and-mini-review

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2013, 12:48:00 am
content: Yes it would have been really nice to have those leads. Why a lower end model got them and their top didn't? Who knows?

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2013, 11:50:04 am
content: I'm not sure that this meter is such a good deal. At USD300.00 (USD320.00 with the cost of decent leads), you're getting awfully close to Agilent's and Fluke's offerings. This is a meter that looks good on paper, but has no track record of its accuracy and sturdiness, after some months of rough use in the field.The interconnected PCBs look very busy indeed, with lots of discrete components scattered all over the place around some unknown microcontrollers and ADCs, adding to the possibility of failure. Does it normally come with a lifetime warranty?Its input protection looks top notch, although the PCB's original sparkgap footprints are populated with what looks to me like MOVs.From what I can see, the screen display quality is very average and the tiny range switch looks horrid. I would want to work it a few times in person to make sure it won't frustrate me in the long run.At that price point, I'm also very disappointed that it has no internal data logging and I cannot understand why that USB connection cable has to be so expensive.It wil be interesting to hear a year from now if your current appraisal has changed somewhat.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2013, 04:33:37 pm
content: You have some valid points as far as the possible long term reliability goes as this particular model has no track record that I can find. The one thing it does have going for it in this case is that Brymen is an OEM for Amprobe and Extech and this meter is built to the same or better standards as far as I can see. It certainly is much better, MUCH better, than any Uni-T offering I have seen.I must say though that the Uni-T UT61E display is one of the clearest and easiest to read displays I have seen on any multimeter. The Brymen isn't too bad bad but not as good as the UT61E. As far as the range switch goes, yes it is small but I don't find it an annoyance.The price of the meter is actually $240. One cannot compare shipping as it does not apply equally. The USB cable is not that much different in price than other offerings from Agilent nor Fluke. So if you count the cost of the meter itself on its own merits compared to other higher end meters, the Brymen is much less expensive.

author: jjman
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 08:49:14 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on January 10, 2013, 11:50:04 amCan you share which is the equivalent (feature wise) Agilent multimeter next to BM869?

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 09:00:13 am
content: I think one of the features the Brymen BM-860's series offers that you don't see very often with Fluke or Agilent meters is the dual display. It's obviously not an essential feature as you can always take 2 measures instead but sometimes it could be quite handy. You can measure both the DC and AC components of a voltage at the time for example.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 12:13:31 pm
content: http://www.transcat.com/catalog/productdetail.aspx?itemnum=U1251B5 digit secondary display on the Agilent, 4 digits on the Brymen.Internal data logging.3 year warranty.

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 12:59:13 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on January 12, 2013, 12:13:31 pmFor the sake of argument, it's only True RMS AC so it still won't do my example measurement :p

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 01:10:29 pm
content: Well, if you need AC+DC, the U1252B does that too, but that will cost a little more. I'm not sure if both AC and DC can be displayed at the same time actually, so the Brymen may win in this special case.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 05:21:57 pm
content: Certainly the Agilents can offer other features and a better range on the frequency meter function, but at a much higher price. The Brymen succeeds in a very good safety design and with all the features anyone is likely to need. I would have preferred a higher frequency range but it is only one "big" problem IMHO. I would have liked to see a better hold function than the lame one it has too but the crest factor function or record function can be pushed into service for that.The Agilent 1251 that you linked to is $390 vs $240 for the Brymen. I would hardly call that a fair comparison.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 05:41:13 pm
content: Yes, but if you want data logging, the cable costs another $50, a decent set of leads $20, it then pushes the price to $310. With the $390 Agilent, you get a free BT module worth $50, internal logging and a three year warranty, not to mention a solid reputation.You didn't say what kind of warranty your seller is providing.I think that when you weigh it all in, these meters aren't so far apart and one should give pause before a buying decision is made.It doesn't reflect badly on the Brymen. If it lives up to the specs sheet in the long term, I'm sure you won't regret your purchase.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2013, 06:37:04 pm
content: The Brymen has a 1 year warranty. Sorry I kept forgetting to mention that. Not great compared to other companies.Yes I agree, when you compare it the way you have done it does bring the price closer. I see your point to that extent. But I still contend that taken on its own merit, the BM869 is a good buy and a good price. If you want data logging and the 3 year warranty then maybe the Agilent is a better buy but still at least $80 more, or $100 if you accept the Brymen leads as they are. They are not bad, they are just not what I expected.I just did something I forgot to do when testing the leads. I cleaned the tips and the lead resistance dropped from 0.12 ohms to 0.07 ohms. They are acceptable leads rated at 1KV 10A CATIV. They will be great leads for fine electronics work, but it is my preference to have two or three sets of different leads for different work anyway.So, given that you don't need different leads as they are decent, there is a $100 price difference. That is not small. For that difference you can buy an Amprobe AM-270 and have the two meter minimum that anyone should have and both of them CATIII 1000 CATIV 600 rated and with good accuracy. Or if you want to make a closer price comparison then I would compare my other choice for a multimeter in this class, the UEi DM397. All included for around $280 plus it has a 5 year warranty. It does stand alone data recording, but only 20 readings. It might even be a better buy than the BM869 but I knew the inside construction of the Brymen and was more comfortable with it for current hazardous solar energy work.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2013, 11:21:52 pm
content: I emailed Brymen asking about the different probes I received. This is their reply:"Standard BM869 or BM257 unit is with the test lead set which is same as the one which you received. Some of our agents thought to use the test lead set which you mention for our meters would help their sales in their markets, even if they would increase listing prices. Thus they decided to pay higher and requested us to send their order units specially with that test lead set. "

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 19, 2013, 08:50:58 am
content: After reviewing the reviews, I realized that Brymen perhaps has misrepresented what probes are included as standard equipment when they send Kiriakos a review sample with the leads he had and then sell the meter with much lesser leads. If there is something I am not truly happy with Brymen is that they seem to be misrepresenting the included equipment as far as leads go.

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2013, 09:21:59 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on January 19, 2013, 08:50:58 amI think what's "standard" depends very much on who you are buying from. I am ordering a few BM-521's and 525's directly from Taiwan for my eBay store, and specifically asked if they would come with the silicone insulated and gold plated probes and they said yes.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 19, 2013, 11:56:31 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on January 12, 2013, 06:37:04 pmIn the EU, you are covered for the first two years (unless of course the seller goes away).

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 20, 2013, 12:35:56 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on January 10, 2013, 11:50:04 amYou've some valid points here IMHO.I didn't see a warranty period listed for Brymen at all, though rebrands do. Greenlee offers a limited lifetime warranty, and Extech 3yrs (same as the older 85x series).I picked up a BM857A on eBay, and should get it in the coming week (only paid $70 for it, including shipping in the US). But this isn't the norm vs. buying either fromwww.tme.euor a rebranded as an Extech (MM560A is the same unit I have on the way).Here in the US, I managed to locate a Greenlee DM-860A for $312 (other sources were ~$387). At that price, it's nearly what I paid for my Agilent U1252B ($350). Not much value in comparison (none with the wrong vendor), even without accounting for accessories, shipping, or reliability history.Quote from: Lightages on January 10, 2013, 04:33:37 pmFor a true value comparison, shipping would need to be included, as well as any accessories. Problem is, this would have to be done by each individual due to location, as importing may remove the value vs. something that can be had within country.As per accessories, the data connector for Agilent is actually cheaper than Brymen (paid $30, and the software is a free download). Seeing the Brymen/Greenlee/Extech for $80 (US source). Leads can be had anywhere, and I'd use Probemaster due to the value they offer (i.e. $15 for silicone leads only). BTW, these prices don't include shipping, but they're within the US, so would very likely be cheaper than importing.However, if someone can find one at a much better price, such as the older BM857A I managed to locate on eBay, the value would be there. At the price I paid, even adding an $80 cable and set of leads, would put it ~$165. That's less than half the cost of the U1252B without accessories.Quote from: jjman on January 12, 2013, 08:49:14 amU1252B (dual display LCD, 1kV fuses, 50k counts, similar features).Quote from: Lightages on January 19, 2013, 08:50:58 amSadly, this isn't really surprising.But because I expected something like this (poor quality probes), figuring in a good set of probes will still keep me under $100.Just wish deals like this were much more common, and available to people regardless of location.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2013, 07:42:32 am
content: After a couple of email exchanges with Brymen, I am going to eat my words."We supply different product combinations to different importers to serve their specific markets. The test leads you received are made of stainless steel with finely ground tips. Stainless steel is more expensive than brass, and is more difficult to machine. The reason for using that is to increase the toughness and ductility of the tips making them sharp enough to stab into oxidized conductors as commonly found in CAT III and CAT IV areas. They are more durable and are less apt to break for heavy duty use.Brass tips with electro-plating protection are good for minute signal changes with minimized contact resistance. However, they wear out faster over time than that of stainless steel, and is not suitable for stabbing into rusty areas.If you think that Brass tips work better in your application, we can offer you a free replacement in such case. However, to save the work for both of us, you will need to send back your stainless steel test leads to us with prepaid shipment before or after you get the free replacement from us in principle. That is, we will absorb our replacement test leads and mailing cost to you, and you will need to pay for the mailing cost for your return test leads to us. Please advise if you really want to do so."It is obvious that Brymen takes their customer's satisfaction seriously and I apologize for anything I have said contrary in this regard about Brymen. I have decided to keep the leads as supplied.

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2013, 09:12:14 am
content: Brymen is a great company. They make good quality products and they are very responsive to customer inquiries. That is the only reason why I continue to stock their products even though it makes no financial sense for me to do so. I simply love them.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2013, 07:02:46 pm
content: Quote from: iloveelectronics on February 06, 2013, 09:12:14 amI think the only negative things to say about Brymen are- Their joke of a web site. I much prefer a company with good products and a lousy web site than the other way around, but doesn't Brymen have some pride?- Not enough distributors. Or maybe they have, but they don't tell anyone who they are.From all the no-name brands they are the only one where I think they are honest with their CAT ratings.

author: Spawn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2013, 07:23:54 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on February 06, 2013, 07:02:46 pmYes, after having the rebadged Brymen from Extech I was looking for different models to get one, but I can’t find any distributors and I refuse to buy rebadged stuff from our friends (Extech) again, even on ebay only one I can find is the one sold by Franky which ships to my country.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2013, 07:50:06 pm
content: I had a bit of a rough time with TME in Poland, but it all worked out in the end. I would give them a try again.www.tme.euTheir prices are really good on the Brymens too.

author: Spawn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2013, 08:09:47 pm
content: Thanks Lightagesdidn’t know TME also ships to the Netherlands prices are looking good indeed and no problem with customs since it’s shipped from Europe. I might try them next month, spend too much for my so called hobby this month. But the page is bookmarked

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2013, 08:31:14 am
content: Reply to Lightages and Spawn:I just ordered a Bm857 and BM869 from TME.eu. January 25 is when I started the process, I think I got the last 869 they had in stock, sorry. I will update on Lightages TME rant thread when they arrive in Canada to give another data point. Let me just say that the web ordering system they have is bit clumsy and opaque. It doesn't give very good feedback during the process and my order stayed in pro forma hell-purgatory for a week until it came unstuck three days ago. They sent me a terse shipping invoice but it doesn't give me any indication wether it was my email(s) or just their slow grinding bureaucracy . Pay attention to the little icon at the end of the line in your order form, I think it shows as "details" when you mouse hover. Clicking on that told me my order was some-how stuck in their constipated system. Full details when everything is over.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2013, 08:46:58 am
content: The TME page still shows 5 in stock, so who knows? Why did you order a BM857 and a BM869? Was it to have two safe meters with good accuracy but not spend twice as much?

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2013, 09:36:05 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on February 07, 2013, 08:46:58 amWell when I ordered the 857 the count went from 8 to 7 and the 869 from 1 -> 0, so I guess they are getting new stock. Why two meters?: long story, but the short of it is that I access to flukes at work was always too cheap to upgrade my cheap Radio shack meter at home. The RS meter is 1970's vintage autoranging built around one of those intersil meter chips and it was a gift from my parents to a teenaged son that showed an interest in electronics. It was adequate for me at the time. Later my hobby-time activities waned but never died completely, now they back in force and I am slowly rebuilding my home lab.I want one really good 6.5 digit bench meter and one really good handheld with high count so the 50000/500000 aspect attracted me to the Brymen line. I haven't found the bench meter just yet, but I really prefer them - got spoiled at work I guess. I couldn't decide which of the two Brymen's I wanted so I bought both! Also I figure it would economize shipping. Might re-sell the one I like least for a small loss. I think on a pure dollar value proposition the 857 at $144.00 usd from TME or $70.00 on ebay that some-one on another thread got ( never get that lucky) is probably better, but I want to find out how useful the dual display and temp is hands on.I don't think there are any teardown pics of the official brymen badged 857 on-line, to compare to the extech,greenlee, amprobe's ect. so I should make a photo thread when I get mine.

author: Spawn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2013, 12:06:35 pm
content: Thanks for heads up chickhenHeadKnob, I got already a Extech MM570A with 50000/500000 counts, so no harm done there

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2013, 01:13:08 pm
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on February 07, 2013, 09:36:05 amI picked up a BM857A from eBay for $70, and posted tear down photos for comparison purposes. Didn't do a full review due to the rebranded models that have already been reviewed.Thread with BM857A photos:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/extech-mm570a-arrived-as-replacement-for-ex570-but-is-it-better/msg184842/#msg184842Keep in mind, this particular unit is apparently NOS (date codes from 2000), so there may be some differences from the unit you have on order. As per features, the dual display is nice to have in my experience, but it's not the end-all-be-all either. If you need a Temperature function, the BM857A doesn't have it, but the BM869A does. 5AG sized HRC fuses at higher voltage ratings in the 869 as well, if that's important to what you'll be using the meter for (3AG size @ 500V in the BM857A I have).FWIW, these seem to be found on eBay when using "500,000 count" in the search terms rather than "Brymen" or the specific model number. Currently a listing from another seller ($90 + s/h), but seems the seller only ships within the US.http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-True-RMS-CAT-IV-Precision-Multimeter-500-000-Count-Brymen-BM857-/121051191083?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2f36972b

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2013, 04:00:04 pm
content: Yes, the BM869 is truly 1000V CAT.IV from what I can see. The older models only seem to have 500V fuses but the rest of the input protection looks very good.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2013, 05:36:38 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on February 07, 2013, 04:00:04 pmIt does to me as well.There's also room to populate the fuse section with the correct clips for 5AG fuses, and the legend indicates 600V for both locations when using this size. So I suspect it was done in order to offer options to client companies that were after re-branded units to fill a segment in their offerings.Probably not that different between the 867 & 869 in their approach as well (IIRC, the 867 uses 5AG size @ 600V fuses).Whether the newer or older series' are chosen, they do seem a lot safer than some of the other offerings out there (thinking in terms of what's posted in the Failure to Meet CAT Ratings thread).

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2013, 07:02:51 pm
content: Well I did not notice that the BM867 had lesser fuses in it. That is just totally wrong. The meter is rated for 1000V CAT.IV and those fuses do not belong there. I will have to include the BM867 in the list of meters that do not meet their CAT rating. Why Brymen would do that I have no idea.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2013, 07:54:48 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on February 07, 2013, 07:02:51 pmMy guess would be cost cutting trumped making sure the CAT ratings were fully complied with, regardless of model.Same thing with the older BM85x series as well from what I can tell. The BM859CFa is rated for 600V CAT VI, and uses 600V fuses. Some of the rebranded units contain the 600V fuses in their version of the 857, such as the Extech MM560A. At least the BM857A I have, it can be retrofitted with the correct fuses to meet the CAT ratings. Would be nice to confirm this with a more recent unit (keep in mind, the date codes in mine are from 2000), but I suspect it's still the case.Seems the buyer will have to do their homework if they want to be certain their meter will truly meet their claimed CAT ratings.That said, it doesn't mean the meters are death traps, just that the user must exercise additional caution when using a meter that doesn't meet it's ratings IMHO (technically speaking, the Brymen I have doesn't meet it's CAT ratings ATM either due to 500V fuses in both locations).Also seem to recall that some have 600V fuses in the mA location, and 1kV in the A location. Might be worth digging into the 86x series a little deeper.

author: scopeman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2013, 03:31:20 am
content: The manufacturer of these meters is Minipa in China. They market them in South America as the ET2940 but not in the USA. Below is a link for the Portuguese manual. Save the file and re-name to PDF. I believe that they private brand many of their products for many US manufacturers. I would attach a catalog but it exceeds 2MB.Note the Brymen logo on the first page of the manual.The manual may be found here:http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eletronicapaulista.com.br%2Fdownload.php%3Fname%3Darqs%2Fproduto%2F92_a.pdf%26nome%3DManual%2B-%2BMult%25EDmetro%2BDigital%2BDigital%2BET-2940.pdf&ei=KxM0UYb5DfKK0QHRioDQDA&usg=AFQjCNGTiWmFbdrFrcoTP-k1eUwfOQOTgQ

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 04, 2013, 05:19:09 am
content: I believe it is the other way around. These particular Minipa branded meters in Brazil are actually made by Brymen.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 05, 2013, 05:54:11 am
content: I just made an interesting new discovery. If you hold the REL key while powering on, the display shows "869-P9". Any ideas what this means?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2013, 06:30:40 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on March 05, 2013, 05:54:11 amPCB revision or firmware revision?

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2013, 07:59:32 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on March 05, 2013, 05:54:11 amCuriously even my BM-867 shows the same thing...

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2013, 08:15:11 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on March 05, 2013, 05:54:11 amNo idea about 'P9', but there is a similar although a bit more complex way to get it into calibration mode.This info isn't provided because if you don't have the accurate equipment to calibrate it you will mess up your multimeter.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 06, 2013, 05:21:46 pm
content: If you know the way to get into calibration mode, please tell!

author: KedasProbe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2013, 06:24:00 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on March 06, 2013, 05:21:46 pmSorry, I can't share it on request from Brymen.But you can ask Brymen for it.Quote from: BrymenQuote from: BrymenEdit: some info about how it works, so you have an idea.The procedure consist of applying the requested/displayed standard value and then confirm that it is present.For DC voltages calibration these standard (displayed) values are used:FUNCTION DCV(1) DC 0.0000V(2) DC 5.0000V(3) DC 50.000V(4) DC 500.00V(5) DC 1000.0VFUNCTION DCmV, Hz(1) DC 00.000mV(2) DC 500.00mVHz (3) 20.000Hz/5V square waveEdit2: added youtube link

author: scopeman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2013, 01:52:26 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on March 04, 2013, 05:19:09 amThat would seem odd as Minipa has been a really large manufacturer of test equipment for quite a few years and DMM's are but a portion of their product line. Also the catalog I have pre-dates the Brymen labeled units.

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2013, 02:09:29 am
content: Quote from: scopeman on March 07, 2013, 01:52:26 amI can't read Portuguese but by looking at the pictures of their multimeters on the Minipa website many of them look suspiciously similar to a lot of Chinese or Taiwanese made meters (Uni-T, Brymen, Appa, etc). I think they don't actually manufacture any multimeters themselves, but rather rebadge meters from the far east.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 07, 2013, 03:28:48 am
content: So holding the delta/REL key on start up displays 869-P9 for a couple of seconds and the display blanks out after 5 or so more. So I am going to guess there is some sequence of key presses to make during this time or a specific voltage to apply or something like this to get it into cal mode.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2013, 06:46:41 am
content: Quote from: iloveelectronics on March 07, 2013, 02:09:29 amIndeed, it doesen't look as if they do their own meters. I just went through their bench multimeters:MDM-8045B, MDM-8145: VictoryMDM-8045C, MDM-8145A, MDM-8156B: Uni-TMDM-8156A: Tonghui

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 07, 2013, 01:11:23 pm
content: Quote from: Bored@Work on March 07, 2013, 06:46:41 amYou guys are right; Minipa used to have a blend of in-house design and OEM equipments for quite some time (I bought a ET2060 in the 80's that had resemblance with a few other brands), but nowadays I don't know if they became a pure OEM.

author: jancelot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 07:46:02 pm
content: I am looking forward too to buy this multimeter. it has almost everything for a mid-range price, hope don't miss the Auto-V/LoZ feature (detect ghost voltages, those electromagnetically induced). It should be available for a mm which has 1000V cat IV and meters voltage.Best bargain seemshttp://www.tme.euhere in europe, since Fluke is extremely priced, maybe because you pay taxes twice, once in U.S.A. an other in the E.U.? Also the Brymen surpasses the fluke in almost every aspect except for the size and much inferior quality probes, and that the continuity test is not as clean.BRYMEN BM869S: 182.35€FLUKE FLUKE 87V: 473.92 €

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 01, 2014, 09:47:56 pm
content: If you want the Low Z feature, another option is the BM525. it has lower accuracy, 10,000 count instead of 50,000/500,000, and is missing a coupe of other features. It does do 87,000 auto logging at up to 20 samples per second.

author: jancelot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 02, 2014, 03:32:02 pm
content: Actually the LoZ is not quite necessary for me. What I really need is a very good electronics multimeter that measures voltages, ohms, and the usual stuff up to a point like mA, uA, capacitors and such. Would like to use it in my house and car as a general purpose as well.

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 01:19:30 pm
content: Quote from: jancelot on July 01, 2014, 07:46:02 pmAnyone else use these suppliers?Are they ok to use?

author: jancelot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 01:56:43 pm
content: Quote from: Yago on July 03, 2014, 01:19:30 pmTake a look herehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/bad-service-endemic-in-the-whole-world-now-anyone-deal-with-tme-eu/

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 02:35:45 pm
content: I bought the 869 and the 257 meters from tme maybe a year ago.It was a cheap, quick and painless deal. But you can't really tell much from one deal where everything went smoothly.As for the meters the 869 is a total pleasure to use. But it is quite big, so I use it more as a lab meter.I got the 257 just for taking it around in the field. I don't like it much, not sure why. The auto ranging and the tiny symbol for mV.First time I used it was low light and I thought I had 70v but had 70mV.Though it is tough and a handy size.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 08:11:06 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on July 03, 2014, 02:35:45 pmHuh? There is no mV range on the Volts function. If you want mV you have to select the mV function.I love my BM257. It is a perfect size for the field. It is built like a tank. It is has more than adequate input protection. It has almost every function you might need and more and is accurate enough for almost everything practical, for the field. It is lacking TRMS DC+AC but instead only AC, and the diode test voltage is only around 1.6V.The BM869 is, IMHO, the best buy for an all round test, bench, and field meter.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 11:12:31 pm
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on July 03, 2014, 02:35:45 pmYes I have maligned my bm257 unfairly.The BM257 doesn't do this at all. I checked my meters it was actually my fluke 1587 which does this, and it sucks.A couple of things I dont like about the BM257 are the left position on the dial should be off. This always catches me out.It's great it has the efield detector but it's not obvious how to use it so I need to carry my instruction book around with me. I don't use it much and so I can't remember. IMO it should be fairly obvious.

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 11:38:11 pm
content: Sorry if this is a hijack, but this seems to be where the Brymen questions are answered?!Is the BM857A capable of temperature measurement?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 11:53:41 pm
content: No.

author: mtdoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 03, 2014, 11:57:23 pm
content: I love my BM257. I find myself reaching for it more often than my Fluke 87V for most things. The larger display but smaller overall size makes it very nice to use. Resolution and accuracy are good enough for most of my admittedly undemanding electronics work.I can't justify another high end multimeter now - but if I was looking for one the BM869 would be at the top of my list.

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 12:03:06 am
content: There's a fair bit of love for the 257.Seems strange but you do get attached to bits of equipment that work well and you can just rely on.I must admit I'm pretty keen on my 869.

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 04, 2014, 02:28:02 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on July 03, 2014, 11:53:41 pmThanks, it's pretty easy to get lost in these specs/models, and am still a little lost tbh.On a tight budget and with no meter of any note (or safety features!), I was thinking that two meters being the minimum.Would I be missing something important from the 869, if I instead bought an 857A and a 257?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2014, 01:06:29 am
content: Quote from: Yago on July 04, 2014, 02:28:02 pmThe 85x series is the predecessor to the current 86x series. Counts are the same (50k/500k), as are the features for like models (857 vs. 867), but the newer models have a dual display. Between the 857 and 869, there will be a slight reduction in features. Temperature measurements are missing on the 857 for example (same with the 867).I'd recommend going toBrymen's site, and downloading the datasheets and do a side-by-side comparison (scroll down on the linked page).

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 05, 2014, 02:43:15 am
content: The other thing to do is download the spreadsheet that Wytnucls has so generously spent his time making to see the differences in the meters.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-spreadsheet/I think your idea of "a tight budget" is a bit bigger than most tight budgets.With a BM857a and a BM257, you will have a pair of meters that many people will think is an extravagance. The BM257 will have temperature and EF field detection, the BM857a will have the True RMS with AC+DC and much higher accuracy. The back light on the BM857a is so bad that calling it a bad would be an insult to the word bad, but it is a great meter in the end.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 05, 2014, 04:27:19 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on July 05, 2014, 02:43:15 amI always forget aboutWytnucls's spreadsheet.The backlight in my 857 definitely borders on laughable, but it does work.Probe quality should be mentioned too, particularly regarding continuity for the 857 (included probes result in a scratchy tone; problem reduced and even vanished with various quality lead sets). FWIW, the 869 does come with top notch probes, which will save a bit of funds (~15 - 20USD, 30USD if it's a basic kit).

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 06, 2014, 11:48:12 am
content: Thanks for that info guys!Looked at the spreadsheet and currently reading the thread, learning quite a few things as always.Funny how when a plan looks good, it gets fuzzy with more information

author: unbiased
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2014, 12:58:07 am
content: Talk about the Brymen BM869 and equivalents seems to have died down lately, but since I just jumped into the "buy a new multimeter" phase, I went and ordered one today. But now I see that there was mention that there was an revision done to some of the Brymen models and they added the suffix "S" to the model number. I ordered mine from tme.eu website and am wondering if I will be getting the latest revision model or get one from the old batch that does not have the upgrade. Would anyone here maybe know if Brymen has replenished dealers with the new revision "S" models by now or is it hit or miss which version I might get?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 09, 2014, 01:04:11 am
content: I would assume that if your order has the old model number that it will be the old model. But who knows? I hope al goes well with your order. I know when you get the meter, whichever revision you get, you will be happy.

author: larsdenmark
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2014, 12:42:48 pm
content: Quote from: unbiased on September 09, 2014, 12:58:07 amThe only version listed on tme.eu is this one: BRYMEN BM869S

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2014, 12:50:47 pm
content: As far as I know both the non-s and s versions are still current, and are both in production. The s version seems to target mainly the European market only, to satisfy their latest safety standards. I still only carry the non-s versions in my eBay store because there's a price difference between the 2 (from Brymen) and I'm not sure if it's really worth it, knowing the the original version is already built to a rather high standard.

author: unbiased
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 09, 2014, 01:45:38 pm
content: Okay yes, I did see tme.eu has listed in their description that the Brymen part number for the meter is BM869S where the model number still is a BM869. I also received a PM from a nice member informing me that they did get a BM857 from tme.eu and it was the latest "S" model with also the improved bright LCD back lighting instead of the old poor dim green LED's version. Good to hear. I just hope I do get the latest revision "S" model also. Thanks for the vote of confidence everyone!I've gotta say the complete silence with no updates nor email acknowledgements of status after placing the order with tme.eu is un-nerving but from what I can read from all others that bought from tme.eu, everything always worked out in the end and all was fine. So I feel confident that my transaction will go smooth too. We'll see.

author: unbiased
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2014, 09:17:14 pm
content: My BM869S meter was just delivered today via DHL. It is a model BM869S marked on both the meter front plate as well as on the box that it came in. The delivered outer shipping box was kind of crunched and banged up. Inside was only crunched paper as filler and the actual meter box was a bit crunched too. But the meter seems fine. I will have to check it all out in time and hope it lives up to expectations. TME.eu has done a fine job delivering this to the USA from Poland right quickly. So I can confirm they delivered the goods, and pretty quickly too. I took some pictures of the meter face and back and will upload them when I get the chance to transfer them to my PC and resize them. Thanks TME.eu store!

author: unbiased
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2014, 09:38:17 pm
content: Here are the pics of the Brymen BM869S that I received from TME.eu order.The front panel now says BM869S instead of old BM869. It has a tape sealed across the meter halves, so I am not breaking it open until the 1 year warranty is over. So sorry no pics of the inside changes. Just pics of the outside.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2014, 09:53:40 pm
content: Quote from: unbiased on September 10, 2014, 09:38:17 pmDon't blow the meter 10A and mA fuse then.

author: unbiased
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2014, 09:58:51 pm
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on September 10, 2014, 09:53:40 pmYeah, that's a good point! I read the thread about the dumb ass designers that don't make the fuses easily accessible in the rear compartments on many meters. This one is one of the dumb designs with regards to replacing fuses. I guess its all about designing to a price point and they chose to skimp on giving us that option.I don't think that they should void the warranty then if someone has to replace a blown fuse and has to break the calibration tape seal they put on these meters.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 10, 2014, 11:24:42 pm
content: I am no expert in European consumer law but....I believe that TME has absolutely no right to negate a function of a product. One of the normal uses is to open the meter to change fuses. I believe that you have the legal right to remove the sticker and use the meter as per its instructions and still keep your warranty.

author: unbiased
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2014, 11:37:14 pm
content: @Lightages, I tend to agree with you on this point. I don't know who put the tape seal across the meter halves (TME or Brymen) but I don't expect to have to use their warranty service if the meter holds up. I don't really work on HVAC or high voltage things (except when I repair my own Central Air and Heating system) and mostly work on hobby Hi-Fi Audio Electronics. Well some vacuum tube amplifiers I work on have some high voltages but I don't expect to blow any fuses nor blow the meter to smitherines. If I do have to replace the fuses, I will do it. I am not going to worry about it.

author: unbiased
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 10, 2014, 11:46:22 pm
content: Here is a pictures of the tape seal across the halves of the BM869S multimeter new out of the box. It looks like it has Polish language on it, so I guess it is put on by TME.eu and not by Brymen factory.

author: classicalQbit
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 13, 2014, 02:59:05 pm
content: I consider to order the BM867 from tme.eu with the computer interface. It will be really helpful if anyone knows if thedataloggingworks with Mac osX, rasperian, or GNU linux. I have already ordered the UNI-T 61E, so it is kind of to late to ask the same question for this meter, but if you do know I will be very happy.The BM867 spec sheet specify that it can log MAX, MIN, and AVG. If the AVG is based onaccumulatedmeasurements divided by time, and those accumulated measurements were accessible somehow, it would be quite neat. It might be used to measure mAh and other things. Do you know if this is possible? (I doubt it, but one can hope).When I read about the Brymen meters on this forum, some consider them to have a bad chinese plasticsmell. Most does not mention it at all. Does it apply to all the meters (and their rebranded meters)? It really seams to be well built though.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 13, 2014, 05:28:06 pm
content: Yes, they should work with any OS. You will have to write your own logging routine but the protocol is published for the data stream.As far as how AVG is calculated, it appears to be either a total average over the whole measurement time up to the limits of the internal logging memory or a moving window average. I don't know if the data points to calculate are exposed in the memory or not. I will investigate. A quote from the manual:QuoteMIN/MAX/AVG can be used on all measurements as far as I can remember but I will double check.I have never detected a "Chinese" plastic smell. These are made in Taiwan. I know the smell you are talking about on some cheap Chinese rubber and plastic products but Brymens don't have that smell. Anything made of plastic will have some odors and especially the outside rubber bumper.

author: classicalQbit
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 13, 2014, 05:54:36 pm
content: Thanks for the information Lightages, I really appreciate it.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 13, 2014, 06:47:43 pm
content: There is no access to the internal memory locations used for the running AVG. I most certainly does averaging based on some kind of window or moving window and not based solely on MIN/MAX. MIN/MAX/AVG works on all measurements.If you want a better logging meter then consider the BM525. 87000 records at up to 20 records per second, up to 10 in dual display mode.

author: classicalQbit
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 06:23:28 pm
content: I selected the BM867 over the BM525 for the increased accuracy, as this was the main reason for buying a new DMM in the first place.I selected the BM867 over the BM869 as it is more affordable and because it probably will suffice.I ordered it from TME.eu and received it with the gold tip leads. I did not find any way to specify this at their web site. But as these were the ones I wanted I'm happy. Those that need steel tipped ones might have to specify this in some way.The instrument I received show different voltages in 500.000 mode when I reverse the polarity. I have not had the opportunity to check it against a calibrated precision instrument. The specified precision is +-.03% +-2count. I tested batteries as these does not fluctuate much (as long as the temperature is stable). Ambient is 19.1CPositive voltage. Negative voltage. Difference for the last digit in 500.000 mode.1.20355 -1.20350 d+51.23888 -1.23883 d+51.24239 -1.24234 d+53.85697 -3.85704 d-73.27140 -3.27147 d-77.8675 -7.8679 d-47.8461 -7.8465 d-48.4869 -8.4874 d-58.4799 -8.4803 d-4As expected the software that accompanied the USB to optical cable is Windows only. Perhaps Wine will be able to run the Brymen software, or some other software package is able to talk to the instrument. I have looked at the specification for the protocol, so if I have to, I might make it myself, though I prefer not to.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 06:54:36 pm
content: All of those differences in readings are well below the accuracy spec so I would not be concerned. I am a bit obsessive about these things and it would bother me a bit but the work as advertised. The differences could be some small electrolytic effect on the different contacts on the batteries and the probes.When I respond to anything about multimeters now, please consider my disclaimer in my signature. I do not anyone to think I am shilling.

author: classicalQbit
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 07:13:41 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on November 19, 2014, 06:54:36 pmI know. And it seams to be a great multimeter.QuoteI will connect some intermediate cables and check it, though it seams to be very voltage dependent.QuoteProper. Thanks for the answer LightagesIf I get the logging to work, I will be a happy camper. And if everything else fails it is always possible to OCR a videostream, though that is somewhat crude :-)

author: andrija
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 08:19:46 pm
content: I got my 869 a few weeks ago and was not completely satisfied with it calibration. Sure it is within specs but all that did is expose that the last digit is not very useful. My 6000 count Fluke 115 is always spot on and even the Rigol 832 power supply's built in meter appears to be more accurate. As calibrated from the factory, 869's last digit seems to provide no extra useful info, quite the opposite as it seems to be way off. And I'm not even talking about 500000 mode - the digit after the last digit, which everyone agrees is just noise and is only really useful for quick comparisons (it drifts fairly quickly). I compared numbers from my Keithley 2015, Rigol 832 (when used as power supply), Fluke 115 and 869, sometimes using 832 and sometimes using the ubiquitous 10V precision calibrated reference. 869 would match the others only if you round the result to 3 digits total (e.g. it would be correct as 5.00V but not as 5.000V). I recalibrated the 0V, 5V and 50V range using 10V reference with 0.01% resistor divider and for 50V the 832 verified by Keithley 2015 and now it seems the fourth digit is usable. Otherwise, without calibration, it felt like this meter's extra count was pointless.It is however really well built and protection inside (fuses, MOVs etc.) seem top notch. But it's also very large, very heavy and looks almost comical with that tiny dial. The dual measurement (e.g. AC and DC at the same time, or AC and Hz) are rather neat too. The ohm measurement is very precise (if I believe the Vishay 0.01% precision on 4 resistor samples I have) and here extra digits seem to be actually useful. Same with capacitance. So compared to a Fluke 115, measuring R and C provides a big step up. But just for voltage, I could have stuck with Fluke and been happy.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 09:34:24 pm
content: I am confused. You say that the BM869 was in spec, but it was no better than the DP832 display in accuracy? How many counts is the display on the power supply?With a count of one out on a 6000 count display, that equates to basically the accuracy spec of the BM869 so yes the Fluke you had already could potentially display this accuracy. The specs for the 115 are certainly not 0.02% but as many know Flukes often exceed their specs and stay that way for a long time.The BM869 can resolve 10 times better than its specs at 50,000 count. Most meters resolve much more than their rated accuracy. The 500,000 count mode is just for relative measurements or trends. I personally believe that for most people the BM829 or the BM525 would be better buys than the BM869 or 867.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 09:35:56 pm
content: Quote from: classicalQbit on November 19, 2014, 07:13:41 pmIf it works in Linux with emulation, I would be interested to know your experiences.

author: andrija
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 10:39:58 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on November 19, 2014, 09:34:24 pmThe 832 has the option for 1mV precision when setting the voltage, I don't quite recall what is its built in meter resolution but I think it ends up with 4 significant digits (e.g. 5.000) at least. I don't know its precision but it looks like all digits that it does show match what I get on other meters - except Brymen before I recalibrated it, for better or worse. That is partially the reason I bought the 10V reference, to find out which of my meters are right.You're right, it appears the Fluke's accuracy matches its resolution while 869 resolution is much higher than its accuracy. That's probably what I was trying to say, I feel Brymen gave me extra resolution without (much) extra accuracy so it felt bad to look at that 50 or 500 thousand digit display and see values that are way off (yet within specs). I agree with your assertion as well, a 527 would have suited me just fine at half the price and if I want precision and connectivity, my Keithley can do that better anyway.

author: ttp
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 19, 2014, 11:56:06 pm
content: Quote from: unbiased on September 10, 2014, 11:46:22 pmThe seal is put by Biall, they are Brymen distributor/importer in Poland.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 19, 2014, 04:12:00 am
content: I have calibrated my BM869. It did not need it but I went through the exercise. I have no data, nothing scientific, but it appears to hold its calibration very well. I have no concerns about its stability. This and many other reasons are why I decided to try and sell Brymens in Chile. My high opinion of the brand came first and then I decided I wanted sell them. So I really don't have any bias but I still put a disclaimer in my signature here.Yes I have tried many other brands and models. My opinion comes from experience.For the money, most of the Brymens can't be beat IMHO.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2014, 07:37:46 am
content: @ 3roomlab:I have both 857a,and 869. The backlight is truly horrid on the 857, as dave's review shows. I prefer my 869 but the 857 is fine and it goes in my portable electronic fixit toolbox. If I drop it and it breaks I will cry less, so it is the one I take up ladders.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 19, 2014, 07:49:43 am
content: The new BM857s models have an improved back light, much like the BM869. So if you want the improved back light version make sure you ask for the Bm857s.I now have a review pending on Brymens of various types: BM257s, BM829s, B525, BM869, BM22s, BM27s, and a clamp meter BM089.The "s" versions are the updated versions to meet the latest safety requirements. I have the older BM869 but based on the input protection changes of the B829s we will see what Brymen has done. The BM869 and BM829 share the same basic case and input design.I would not hesitate in recommending the BM857s for someone looking in that price range.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2014, 12:31:50 pm
content: 3roomlab, as others have said you can't go wrong with the BM857. I have one and I am extremely satisfied with it.Also, Brymen's support is extremely good - checkthis post

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2014, 02:47:23 pm
content: Here's that backlight of the 857s.Note the display does have more contrast than that when viewing at the correct angle.Might re-shoot that pic to check the difference.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2014, 07:13:51 pm
content: That ^ is quite an improvement on the backlight.

author: classical
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 22, 2014, 07:28:36 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on December 19, 2014, 07:49:43 amThis update might be the reason why TME decreased the price for the older A versions about 8%? So, if the better backlight is not worth 10 EUR now it would be the best time to buy an old one.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 22, 2014, 07:39:59 pm
content: Not only do the "s" versions have an improved back light, they also have updated input protection to meet the requirements of the latest safety standards.If you are happy with that, I agree that it is a great price and time to buy the older version.

author: sotos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2014, 08:40:52 am
content: Where did you find the BM857s? TME doesn’t have it and also the Brymen sitehttp://www.brymen.comif I’m correct with it.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2014, 08:47:42 am
content: I am a distributor for Brymen in Chile. They have been shipping me the BM257s, and I believe that Franky has them in his ebay store too. TME is showing the BM257S:http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm257/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm257s/#

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2014, 11:57:01 am
content: The 857A is up at £80 at TME, that seems a good price, it is only £17 more than a 257!I would send TME an email and ask, they do respond and staff are helpful.I "tried" to buy an 857A and ended up with 857S?!It was just when the new models were released, and the TME website is like "The Crystal Maze".One wrong move and Richard O'brien impishly cocks up your order (haven't had a "lock-in" yet)

author: KD0RC
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2014, 09:40:04 pm
content: TME is really sellig at a good price right now. I just orderd a BM 869S for 224 USD shipped! I did not have any problems with the web site or paying with a credit card. They are closed today, so I don't expect a tracking number until Monday. Wirh any luck I will see the unit next week.

author: sotos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2014, 10:40:51 pm
content: 857s. Doesn’t exist.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 26, 2014, 10:50:48 pm
content: Quote from: sotos on December 26, 2014, 10:40:51 pmAlthough TME doesn't have them yet as it appears they are trying to clear the A model, yes the BM857S does exist. I have my price sheet here in front of me from Brymen and it is listed.You can always ask TME if they have them as maybe they haven't updated their website yet.

author: sotos
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 26, 2014, 11:07:48 pm
content: It doesn’t exist in their site also, if I’m correct.http://www.brymen.com

author: SkyMaster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 27, 2014, 03:31:24 am
content: Post #95, by Yago, is showing a picture of a 857s; the model number is shown on the DMM.Quote from: sotos on December 26, 2014, 10:40:51 pm

author: argg
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 04, 2015, 08:29:51 am
content: contacting TME is like an exercise in vanity, they never replied to the three queries I made in the recent months. To be fair, they do deliver very fast what is in stock but communication is another matter. Can't imagine what their after sales support would be likeLast one was about the availability of BM867S, guess I will have to look for another EU source

author: argg
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2015, 07:08:29 am
content: I agree that for Brymens they do have the best prices around.however this is not the case with other brands:UT71D €180, incl. VAThttp://www.tme.eu/en/details/ut71d/portable-digital-multimeters/uni-t/#t8ad81310d20bffcb9d7ffcb72da5969dBatronix UT71D €153http://www.batronix.com/shop/multimeter/multimeter-ut71d.htmlI am not nitpicking prices though, as I mentioned above my concern is what happens if I ever need to make use of the warranty

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2015, 09:02:56 am
content: Batronix sells the new and improved version with HRC fuses. The original, as sold in China, is not legal in Europe anymore.

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2015, 01:16:01 pm
content: Quote from: argg on January 04, 2015, 08:29:51 amI though Franky(ILoveElectronics) can get some Brymen models at competative (best?) prices.It is the 857 that he struggles to compete with.Send him a PM here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=26834

author: iloveelectronics
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2015, 03:19:56 pm
content: Quote from: Yago on January 06, 2015, 01:16:01 pmThanks for the recommendation. However, TME's pricing on most models are actually very hard to compete with, especially on the higher count models such as the 850's and 860's. I believe I'm mostly only competitive (in terms of pricing) on the 257 and 829. All the units I sell do come with gold plated silicone leads though and it is my understanding that TME's are not silicone (but are gold plated). The difference on the leads is more noticeable at the probe tips - the silicone ones have screw threads for a lantern spring attachment.

author: Yago
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2015, 04:39:29 pm
content: Ahh, thanks for the clarification Franky, sorry for my mistake.You are correct about the leads not being silicone, and they also didn't sell those excellent Brymen crock clips you have.

author: tralamazza
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 24, 2015, 12:11:02 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on December 22, 2014, 07:39:59 pmDo you have more information on the new input protection?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 24, 2015, 01:43:16 pm
content: I don't have specific information on the changes made but the one thing that you can be sure of is that they now install fuses with the same voltage rating as the CAT rating voltage. Some of the older ones had fuses rated for 600V when the meter was rated for 1000V.

author: necessaryevil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2015, 12:14:39 pm
content: QuoteThat's talking about the Uni-T, right?I'm saving up for a real DMM. It's going to be a Fluke or a Brymen, undecided yet. If it's gonna be a Fluke I'll possibly import it ,the prices are much higher here; partly because of the dollar conversion and the somewhat insane 21% VAT.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 26, 2015, 04:24:33 pm
content: Quote from: necessaryevil on February 26, 2015, 12:14:39 pmActually no. I was referring to the Brymens. The BM859 had 1000V fuses whereas the BM857 had 600V fuses. This is not allowed anymore in the current regulations. The fuses were both still big HRC fuses and safe.

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2015, 06:37:35 pm
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on February 26, 2015, 04:41:47 pmHis eevblog id here ismimmus78https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=27800

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2015, 09:54:17 pm
content: I received a BM869S this week from tme.eu, with an impressive next day delivery, I ordered about 11am on Monday and it arrived Tuesday before 10am. So TME's shipping is good, but I had difficulty registering, which is mandatory. Maybe it's just me, but having to go through the register, wait for email, verify email, order process is a right royal PITA, and unnecessary: I just want to place the order and go. As a result I have now ended up with two accounts, one of which will remain dormant.Anyway, my question is, what is the difference between the BM869 and the BM869S?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 26, 2015, 10:05:32 pm
content: The difference with the "s" version is that is has been updated and retested to meet the latest IEC requirements for CAT ratings. I have the old version but will happily use it in CATIV/1000V areas with without worry. I am not sure what has been changed in the BM869, if anything, to meet the new spec.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2015, 10:17:09 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on February 26, 2015, 10:05:32 pmOk, that was what I was guessing but hadn't seen it spelt out. I haven't had it apart yet, maybe I should and compare it to the teardown.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 10:39:40 pm
content: BM869S:Innards:On first viewing, it looks like the four large 10.2 ohm resistors at the top right are new and there is a modification to the PCB reflecting that. In the original there were only three resistors there.Original BM869 resistors here: (From)

author: necessaryevil
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 27, 2015, 11:09:56 pm
content: I was going for a Fluke 115/117 as my first 'real' multimeter. Now it is definitely going to be a Brymen, since I really want to use those additional features.The though part now is to decide which Brymen to get... The BM257, BM827, BM857 and the BM867 are the ones I consider. I have to admit that I actually like the looks of the BM257, the BM827 and the BM869 better than the looks of the BM857. I know I risk getting killed bringing up such nonsense on an engineering related forum:PI'm also interested in design procedures in 'Western' companies and in Chinese/Taiwanese companies. I have the feeling that Brymen is a bunch of really good engineers who do everything themselves. The quick fix of the backlight issue which Dave pointed out tells me they have short communication lines, but the fact that they missed it in the first place tells me that there aren't much bureaucratic procedures. I love the little quirks and their products are great; not just something which is designed to look good in the flyer (Uni-T).

author: classical
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2015, 11:56:06 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on December 19, 2014, 07:49:43 amIs it still pending or is it already published?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 28, 2015, 02:05:54 pm
content: Quote from: classical on February 28, 2015, 11:56:06 amI have been working on reviews, but nothing has been published yet. Stay tuned!

author: classical
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2015, 04:52:29 pm
content: I will do, thank you.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 01, 2015, 05:15:09 am
content: The BM867s will be the same. The BM869 and BM867 appeared to be the same as far as input protection except for the fuses.I have a BM829s here which will be reviewed soon but it also has the same four resistor input as the BM869s. I assume they all have the same input design because they all have the same input rating.

author: jancelot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2015, 11:54:04 am
content: If the BM867 computer interface doesn't work straight away you can try windows virtualization via VMware Workstation or Virtualbox. It's being used currently for software which requires windows xp 32 bits, so you can run it on windows 8 64 bits, linux or mac.Those wondering about the probes, I think is much better to have a set of them, one gold plated extreme quality for electronics work and another from rough stainless steel for high voltages where sparks can occur. Probably they should ship the two with the multimeter! You can add to it a second temperature probe and an amperimetric clamp for a more complete set.I find the BM257 still big enough for carrying around. I think I would get a pocket multimeter instead of for general use (if there is any good). Not sure how much difference is between the 257 and a pocket multimeter (card or pen size). The Kyoritsu KEW1009 looks nice too.The 869S is still a high pricey due to euro/dollar change, about 260€ VAT and shipment included to the EU. The shophttp://www.118volt.itsells it for a few euros less.The last digit of the 869 is more to detect when a value starts to rise or decrease, than for accuracy purposes (for example monitoring the charge/discharge of a battery). Of course if you don't want to know that a mm with less counts will satisfy you.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2015, 07:47:23 pm
content: Brymen is also sold rebranded as Metrel.http://www.metrel.si/products/digital-multimeters-current-clamps-voltage-testers/digital-multimeters.html

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 04:25:35 pm
content: I'm looking at getting a Bryman from TME, how much did it cost to the door for the BM869?Quote from: Howardlong on February 26, 2015, 09:54:17 pm

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 06:57:43 pm
content: Quote from: TheBay on August 27, 2015, 04:25:35 pmI can't remember exactly, but it was ordered with my co's VAT number I am sure so it would have been an ex-VAT price and I think TME add on a tenner or so for shipping from memory, it's been a few months since I last ordered from them. Most memorable thing is that if I order before 11am or so it's on my doorstep in the UK the next day.

author: mimmus78
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 08:08:08 pm
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on February 26, 2015, 06:37:35 pmWell I have some of 857S in my stock for my 118volt shop ... item is not on catalog because I still need to translate manual to Italian.

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2015, 09:09:37 pm
content: That's incredible. I'll have to find a way to buy it through work.Have you still got it and how is it performing.Quote from: Howardlong on August 27, 2015, 06:57:43 pm

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 04:46:28 am
content: what chipset thoses meters usesare they cirrustech based. On this forum some one told, it was possible to calibrate the Brymen 869 ??

author: retrolefty
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 04:59:00 am
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on March 02, 2016, 04:46:28 amWell as Dave defines "calibration is not adjustment", therefore all meters are capable of being calibrated. However any specific meter may or may not be "adjustable".

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 06:28:30 am
content: The chip set is designed by Brymen. Yes, they can be adjusted using a closed case adjustment procedure.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 09:26:48 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on March 02, 2016, 06:28:30 amHave you any document that describe the adjustment procedure ?Is it involved the USB interfacing cable in that ?

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 06:11:38 pm
content: I have the information on the procedure, but have been asked by Brymen to not release it to the public. Sorry.

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 07:50:47 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on March 02, 2016, 06:11:38 pmMaybe ask Brymen again if it is allowed. I think this could be off great value to potential buyers (and owners off course)

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 08:03:20 pm
content: Quote from: _Wim_ on March 02, 2016, 07:50:47 pmVery few companies will allow this and rightly so. It is VERY VERY easy to screw up a meter without the right equipment. hdon't want to deal with the hassle of extra warranty claims from people screwing up their meters.

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 08:11:44 pm
content: Quote from: PedroDaGr8 on March 02, 2016, 08:03:20 pmI can understand that if you are a company with a very good dealer network, where it is easy to bring in the unit for calibration. But in the case of Brymen, it already difficult to buy a meter (only through the web as far as I know in Belgium), so service will be a big hassle IF I would ever need it. So far the my unit perform still very good, but providing documentation would at least give some piece of mind, although you are absolutely right it does require quite some $$$ equipment to adjust it to the original accuracy....

author: 3141592
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 08:33:55 pm
content: Quote from: markone on March 02, 2016, 09:26:48 amYou can find a video (google brymen calibration) detailing the procedure for a different model, I'd guess it's similar for the 869 too (it may also not be). I wouldn't try to mess with it though, without having serious reason and equipment to do so.

author: jancelot
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 08:38:27 pm
content: Quote from: _Wim_ on March 02, 2016, 07:50:47 pmI don't think they want to be bothered again for the same reason and by the same person, and less to feel being pushed to do something that they even can't because of non-disclosure agreements.

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 08:55:31 pm
content: Guess I only need to "worry" about it when I would actualy need it. For me it way more out of curiosity then anything else, and will follow 3141592 advice to read something more about it, but I do not intend to mess with it...

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 09:14:30 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on March 02, 2016, 06:11:38 pmNo problem, it's understandable why you cannot do that in a public forum.I asked just out of curiosity, right now i do not have any calibration needing, my 869S is working spot on.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 09:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: PedroDaGr8 on March 02, 2016, 08:03:20 pmSquealing backlight, secret chipset, and secretive calibration procedure, all justified and forgiven. Forget the link to Dave or the EEVBlog, constructive criticism and feedback is ultimately the only way a company like Bryman's going to step their game up and be taken more seriously.These meters need to be recalled, fixed and basic service information like calibration procedures need to be published just like the big established players in this field.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 09:30:34 pm
content: Quote from: 3141592 on March 02, 2016, 08:33:55 pmThanks for the hint, i will search for it.Right now no reason to procede with adjustments, i'm just wondering about the choice of calibration points and if it's possible to read out the correction table by mean of usb interface cable.

author: PedroDaGr8
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 09:32:58 pm
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on March 02, 2016, 09:18:36 pmFluke has secret chipsets I don't see you complaining about their various versions of the LTFU2 chipsets. Their processors (TI MS420) are known but the ADC/chipset is not (all we know is that Linear Technology makes it and that is it).Calibration procedures are hit or miss, Fluke publishes theirs (at least for the older stuff) but based on my limited searching Keysight does not, Gossen does not, etc. So basically one major player regularly publishes calibration manuals. Not nearly as much of a scandal as you make it out to be.The backlight issue necessitates a design revision but does NOT even remotely justify a recall. There is no point in recalling over a minor nuisance, it doesn't affect meter performance or life span. Fluke has had many "dark recalls" and even a few things they outright denied for a while (such as the failing SuperCap which they denied for several years before rolling out a recall on it) .

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 10:00:29 pm
content: Ultimately i'm detecting a huge discrediting effort against BRYMEN and i wonder why

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 10:01:35 pm
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on March 02, 2016, 09:18:36 pmI think you have a burr up your ass about Brymen. You can dislike them if you want but lets get the facts right.Every, and I mean EVERY manufacturer has had glitches. A squealing back light capacitor is a problem to some, but does not affect the function of the meter in any way. A squealing back light is more of a problem to the operation of a multimeter than a leaking super capacitor in another big manufacturer's meter? How does this require a recall? How does it affect the function of the meter? Is it annoying to some? Yes....Calibration information is available to all who ask Brymen directly, and to all calibration labs who have the capability to do a real calibration adjustment. If they release the information to all publicly, they will, and yes I mean will, have people sending back meters that are out of calibration because the user screwed up the meter. Brymen will have no way to prove that the user didn't screw it up by playing with something they don't have any way to do properly. This is perfectly understandable.Secret chip set? So? Secret? It is a proprietary design that they sell and license to others. There isn't any way of fixing most products in the world that use proprietary chip sets, or programmed chips. This is a surprise or a real problem?It is interesting that you don't mention the benefits of the BM869. There are no benefits?

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 11:03:09 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on March 02, 2016, 10:01:35 pmNo, what I find interesting is that my comment was twisted in this manner.Quote from: Lightages on March 02, 2016, 10:01:35 pmProducts are not fixed for a multitude of reasons, Consumer belief, price, the disposable society, availability of parts, lack of service information, DIY screw-up's just to name a few. While I dislike the use of proprietary chips, often they not the part failed.Should someone with a $100 meter be expected to spend $250 to have it calibrated because it drifted or was repaired, I guess in the disposable society they are just expected to by another. It's not an economic to repair.Take it Apart is kind of hollow when even very basic information like cal procedures is hidden. You don't have the right equipment, or knowledge is arrogant.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 02, 2016, 11:14:51 pm
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on March 02, 2016, 11:03:09 pmI wouldn't call it twisting, but rather interpreting? Maybe that was not your intent to be understood that way, but that is the way it came across. That is the problem of text communications, it leaves much to be interpreted.Quote from: blacksheeplogic on March 02, 2016, 11:03:09 pmSomeone should not expect to try and calibrate and adjust a 0.02% multimeter without having standards that are 0.002% accurate. Do you have this equipment? Does Brymen prevent you from getting your meter calibrated? Does Brymen control the prices of calibration services? How is any meter disposable because you don't have the $30,000 worth of equipment to calibrate it? Accuracy and confidence in a piece of equipment over years does not end with the first purchase price. ANY piece of equipment that is used for a reference is subject to years of expensive calibrations, not just a Brymen. If you want to have a Fluke or Keysight or an Amprobe or Keithley and keep it calibrated, it costs just the same to do so or more..

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 12:05:28 am
content: Quote from: Lightages on March 02, 2016, 11:14:51 pmThank you. My comment was not intended to degrade Bryman but point out that Bryman are best served by being given constructive criticism.Quote from: Lightages on March 02, 2016, 11:14:51 pmThis is a point we do disagree on. If I want to calibrate my 87 I can. Can I perform a calibration to factory specification, no, but I can get close and that might be good enough for me vrs paying $250 to a cal lab. It's my meter so why can't I make that choice.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 12:09:04 am
content: Again, you forget or ignore what I said. I said that the calibration information can be obtained by asking Brymen directly. How does this prevent you from calibrating your Brymen should you choose to take the risk of screwing it up?Edit:Needing to ask Brymen directly is a bit of protection for Brymen as they will know you are intending to play with the calibration and can then have some justification to refuse a warranty by someone who has played with the calibration without proper equipment. Anyone can understand not wanting to give free warranty calibration or service to someone who has intentionally tampered with something.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 01:27:22 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on March 03, 2016, 12:05:28 amWhat do you mean with "close" ?What calibration equipment do you own/use to do that ?

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 05:02:23 am
content: Quote from: markone on March 03, 2016, 01:27:22 am1. For a lot of people including myself the high precision that a lot of test gear now provides at simply is not needed on a day to day basis. Close to me is good enough for my needs and will be different for different people.The 87 while a nice meter, but it's not high precision, nor is the calibrator required. Any 5.5 or better bench meter is quite adequate to get close to factory specs.2. I have equipment that exceeds or meets fluke requirements to calibrate the 87 with the exception of the higher ACV and a couple of the resistance ranges although I can make the measurements. Other people may not but for most practical purposes using another trusted meter would be close enough. It's their choice to make.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 10:07:16 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on March 02, 2016, 09:18:36 pmI may have missed something earlier in this thread. Why should the meters be "recalled and fixed"? Or are we just discussing whether we can expect Brymen to publish the calibration procedures? I am considering to buy a BM869 or 867, hence would appreciate a clarification - thanks!

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 03:21:32 pm
content: Dave's re-branded BM235 suffers from a capacitor that makes noise when the back light is on and it bothers some people. It makes absolutely no difference in the performance of the meter. This is what is being implied that needs a recall to have fixed. I have never heard a back light squeal from any Brymen that has passed through my hands, BM869S included. It is a one off problem with the BM235 at this point. A recall to fix this would be ridiculous IMHO as it has nothing to do with the function of the meter. Is it annoying to some? Maybe. It only affects one shipment of one model at this point.The noise made about the calibration method not being made public is a bit over the top too. I have said, and will repeat, that Brymen will supply the information to those who ask them directly. They will also supply the information to any calibration lab who needs it. It is not being held secret so you can't adjust your meter. It is not being openly published so as to prevent people playing with the procedure without the proper equipment needed and putting their meters out of specification, especially during the warranty period. If the information was made public, then Brymen would have no way to know if the owner had tampered with the calibration or if the meter had a failure and would be having to fix meters under warranty even if wasn't the fault of Brymen. By needing to ask Brymen for this information they can track who is using this procedure and make an educated decision as to whether the owner had caused the fault or if it was a fault of the meter. It is very logical.Eventually all the information will probably get leaked, but until then they have some security.

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 07:09:15 pm
content: Quote from: Lightages on March 03, 2016, 03:21:32 pmThanks for this detailed explenation. I can for sure agree with this approach, and it good to know that I probably can bring my meter to a local cal lab should I ever need it. So far my BM869s has been exeding my expectation, and can recommend it to any-one.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 03, 2016, 07:23:03 pm
content: Thanks for the good summary and the background information on calibration, Lightages.I was aware of the backlight noise discussion; not a big deal in my view, as it seems easily fixable if it should affect a particular unit. What I was puzzled about was that blacksheeplogic mentions the backlight issue at the beginning of his post in the "all justified and forgiven" category. But then goes on and concludes that the meters ought to be "recalled and fixed". What gives? Is there another, more significant issue, or did you just get carried away, blacksheeplogic?

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 02:45:10 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on March 03, 2016, 07:23:03 pmAFAIK no,the only significant issue here is a sort of surreal atmosphere where actual BM869's owners are providing positive feedbacks while lot of people who have never touched the "damned" thing are claiming all sort of problemsProbably this is the sign that BRYMEN is selling well and this is going to disturb someone else.I actually own a BM869S that i use on a daily basis without any kind of problem, for the budget probably is the best you can get (for sure here in EU) and if you do not care a lot about AC reading's precision and double TCs reading you can go for the 867 model saving additional money.If you are from Deutschland, i suggest to purchase it from TME, lighting fast service with UPS courier.

author: blacksheeplogic
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 04:01:52 am
content: Quote from: ebastler on March 03, 2016, 07:23:03 pmIt's not important to me if you agree with me or not. I think it hurts a company trying to make in roads into a category currently dominated by a few big players having quality issues like this and an answer "It works why are your complaining" from a distributer isn't a good way to show your outstanding commitment to customer satisfactions or product quality.The reasoning behind not releasing cal procedures shows some immaturity within the company, the same kind of immaturity we see from some some manufactures who scrub chip numbers. Again, you can chose to agree or disagree.I realize this is Dave's forum and therefore the very defensive reaction is understandable. You can take my comments either being aimed at constructive criticism - advocating a positive change in the company culture and the need to be seen to decisively address & maintain an image of being a premium quality product, or you can assume those of us who express any criticism want to see Dave & Bryman fail. Your choice.Bryman's going to continue to compete in the lower highly price sensitive segment unless they make a change.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 04:52:55 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on March 04, 2016, 04:01:52 amYou claim it is a quality issue worthy of a recall. I said that it is annoying to some but not worth a recall. I never said that I would not replace any meter that showed this annoyance, nor did I claim that Brymen (spelled with an "e") or Dave would not replace any meters that had this issue if asked to by the purchaser. As a distributor, I have nothing to do with any meters that have the squealing issue, and will send any back to Brymen if I receive one. A recall would be necessary if there was a fault discovered that was a safety issue or a function issue. A squealing noise does not mandate a Brymen wide recall of all meters just in case it has a small noise that annoys someone. It can be handled on a case by case basis. You are not the first person to insult me because you want to believe I am dishonest and put my concerns of making a few pennies over my integrity.Quote from: blacksheeplogic on March 04, 2016, 04:01:52 amYup, Gossen is immature and have no business selling meters too in that case I guess.....Quote from: blacksheeplogic on March 04, 2016, 04:01:52 amWhy do you obviously misspell Brymen? Are you trying to troll? Is it your intent to insult everyone here as having no integrity by saying we would support Dave at any cost to the truth? It certainly appears so in your short time here.

author: jesuscf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 05:29:32 am
content: Quote from: blacksheeplogic on March 04, 2016, 04:01:52 amInteresting comment... but for a company that has neither any significant marketing nor any visible advertising I guess they are doing quite well.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 12:44:06 pm
content: I think I grasp blacksheeplogic's reasoning. Paraphrasing Louis Rossmann:first you be the best, then you be the 1st. Fluke, Gossen have built their brands based on years of trying to achieve perfection and are still delivering quality products. Brymen, on the other hand, is the newcomer that is making inroads on the same market with new products and should achieve perfection to get to the same reputation level as the other two - including fixing nuisances.That is the reason that Fluke's reputation is still strong despite having their own share of boo boos. Brymen, on the other hand, will always be put to test in its pursuit of perfection.However, one thing easily forgotten is that perfection at all costs is not as easy as it once has been - the price driven market is more prevalent nowadays, which forces companies to do compromises in their designs.And that is why I think it comes the largest criticism of Fluke when compared to Brymen: it hasn't released a technology leading product in years now - at least in the portable DMM market. Brymen, on the other hand, is reaping the benefits of being close to the industrial power house of the world and has released products with better features, specs and even safety (IIRC the only other Cat IV 1000V is from Gossen).That will start to eat on Fluke's main markets. At least in the US, Brymens are branded as Greenlee and do not necessarily have a low price - although still a tad cheaper than Fluke. I recall seeing a few electrician/HVAC forums praising their quality (sorry, can't recall links as I am not a regular).

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 02:29:51 pm
content: That's wishful thinking. Brymen is non-existent in China, India and Malaysia. Fluke is everywhere in Asia. Brymen has a small presence in Australia, Europe and the US, through Greenlee and Metrel, but, for some unknown reason, they are not really competitive on price. Online sales to individuals are probably doing ok, through TME.As for cutting edge products, I suggest you browse through the recent Fluke and Gossen catalogues. Brymen makes decent safe multimeters at affordable prices, but there isn't much innovation yet. They have a long way to go, before joining first league. It is feasible, but it will be an arduous road.

author: ProBang2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 04:38:34 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on March 04, 2016, 02:29:51 pmDon´t forget Amprobe.QuoteIn which way is Brymen responsible for the resellers calculation?QuoteI have missed something, perhaps...Where is the handheld, UL-listed Cat IV 1000V multimeter from Fluke? Do you have a link?

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 05:30:29 pm
content: Quote from: ProBang2 on March 04, 2016, 04:38:34 pmDid I hit a raw nerve?What about Amprobe? Haven't seen a single one in Asia. That makes sense, as they mostly sell relabeled Chinese DMMs.Retail prices are Brymen's problem insofar as it affects their sales volume.There is obviously no need in the industry for a handheld meter to work in a CAT IV 1000V environment, otherwise Brymen would have buried Fluke, Hioki, Yokogawa and Gossen a long time ago. The major manufacturers aren't in a rush to test to that level either. That must tell you something. If CAT IV 1000V makes you feel safer testing your electric wurst griller in the garden, good for you.Where is the Brymen catalogue by the way? All I can find is their shitty company site.http://www.fluke.com/fluke/m2en/support/cataloghttps://www.gossenmetrawatt.com/english/seiten/catalogdownload.htmhttps://www.hioki.com/en/

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 05:59:53 pm
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on March 04, 2016, 02:29:51 pmWhich only confirms my post. Fluke is number one due to its reputation built over the years, but it has been playing safe for several years on their portable DMM product line. I still think this may be enough to start eating Fluke's dominance, but obviously will not happen in a decade or so.Quote from: Wytnucls on March 04, 2016, 02:29:51 pmI thought I had put a remark in my post above that I don't know Gossen that well, but the only newest thing out by Fluke in the portable DMM line is the Fluke 3000 with conservative specs - not a terribly convincing product that only relies on the wireless connectivity as the innovation. IMHO this is an interesting feature if it works properly, but it requires additional accessories and in my opinion is not an evolution on their 87V but more of an evolved 179 (as shown in theirmain page).Quote from: Wytnucls on March 04, 2016, 02:29:51 pmI agree with you, apart from the innovation factor. Perhaps we perceive innovation differently: Fluke seems to be shooting for breakthroughs (wireless, modules, etc.) while Brymen is shooting for incremental improvements (dual displays, lead alerts, built-in connectivity, etc.)

author: classical
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 06:07:01 pm
content: Looking at Brymen's webside I do not get the idea that Brymen wants to occupy the world market of multimeters in the next few years. On the other hand I see that they most probably will not have huge expenses for marketing & sales.For me it is important to get an decent meter for a fair price. And here Brymen looks good in my opinion.Fluke, Gossen etc. also deliver a decent quality or even better but for a higher (or much higher) price.The backlight noise shows that the quality assurance seems to be incomplete. Not nice and this schould be improved.But in my opinion this is not a reason for a recall because it is not a safety issue. Maybe a warranty claim if you feel worth while doing.I also do not have the equipment to calibrate or adjust a 0,02% class meter. So I keep my hands off and have no need for a calibration manual.But it is important that professional calibration labs get this info. And this is what Lightages confirms.

author: markone
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2016, 09:58:45 pm
content: Quote from: classical on March 04, 2016, 06:07:01 pmThe truth is that almost nobody here has such equipment or even come close to, dmmcheck or similar devices are good only to get a partial rough estimation of DMM accuracy/health.Maybe someone has access to meteorological equipment due to job's related reasons, definitely not the typical case....

author: ProBang2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 03:19:50 am
content: Quote from: Wytnucls on March 04, 2016, 05:30:29 pmIn no way. I do not use a Fluke 87V neither a Brymen 869. For safety related stuff I am using a Gossen Metrahit. I am also not a fanboy (not even of Gossen) or a distributor or anyhow related. Simply independent and neutral. Just self building my opinion. Hence interested in the progress of multimeters. But, yeah, nothing changed. I am not surprised that is unable for you to post a link.QuoteThe asian market is just of zero interest for me. I am in europe. If presence in the asian market is direct related to the quality and safety of a multimeter, then the Uni-T devices are high-end stuff?QuoteThe re-seller decides the price. He wants to maximize his benefit. And he buys more from the OEM,if and when he wants more. There is no influence of Brymen. If the re-seller doesn´t reach his wanted selling volume, than the price goes down. Nothing more simple then that. Obviously they can get the higher price. That must you tell something.QuoteNot now, perhaps. On the long run they will. Or loose.If I can get the car with the best brakes for less money as the car with the second best brakes ("but good enough since 20 Years...") , then guess, which one would be preferred?QuoteSure. Some companies don´t learn from the past. The better is the enemy of the good. Ever. (And sometimes is cheaper = better.) Think about the image of japanese cars in the ´70s and 80´s. And today? And look at e.g. Detroit in the past and today (or Germany, Bochum, "GM Opel"). In the beginning japanese cars were sold very cheap and used ones even more cheaper. Hence the modelcycling time of the car (sometimes only 2 years) was very short and the car also not long up-to-date. The pricing of used US-cars were much more stable, hence the longer modelcycle the car was longer "hip". But every japanese modelcycling contained improvements. Can you get the similarities to Brymen or even Uni-T?QuoteIt seems there is a massive emotional involvement. Raw nerve? I gave you no reason to be personal aggressive.There is a distributor of Brymen, able to argue unbiased in a objectively, civilisized way. Why can´t this be ecpected from you? (Perhaps because in the last century my grandfather has beaten the sh*t out of yours? Or is it something else?)And: Yes. I am feeling safer in the car with the best brakes. Even if I drive only Vmax 120 Km/h.QuoteIt seems there is no more. Obviously Brymen is quite happy as OEM.Not promoting and selling the own meters is, at least in my opinion, an unbelievable waste of potential.Perhaps some day they will do. Till this day it is only an advantage for Fluke, Gossen and so on...

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 08:33:11 am
content: Quote from: ProBang2 on March 05, 2016, 03:19:50 amClassy.But don't leave out what the Russians did to your grandmother.Fact is, Bryman completely disqualified themselves by their slow Peak Min/Max function. Because if you're doing any kind of electronic or industrial troubleshooting, you want that. That leaves only Fluke, Keysight and Hioki (and CEM, Uni-T and DER EE among the lesser manufacturers).

author: classical
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 09:01:25 am
content: Quote from: mos6502 on March 05, 2016, 08:33:11 amHow fast is really necessary according to your experience?

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 10:25:30 am
content: Quote from: classical on March 05, 2016, 09:01:25 amDepends on the application. Watch this video:The Fluke 87V will give usable readings down to 50us:That should be good enough for most applications, like checking power supply ripple or serial bus communication. Some Uni-T meters offer 10us. But I don't know if that would pick up too much noise and give you meaningless readings.

author: classical
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 11:47:36 am
content: Thank you! In the past I used my scope for transients. But maybe in some situations the multimeter is more handy.

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 05, 2016, 12:19:57 pm
content: It's not only for transient. One should always measure Vpp, to make sure the meter's Vrms reading is within the meter's maximum crest factor (Vpeak/Vrms). Usually 3 and 6 at half scale.

author: marber
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2016, 01:11:43 pm
content: I was looking at measuring ripple/noise of my power supply, and also used my Brymen BM869S in its 500 mV AC range - even though it's pretty limited in accuracy at high frequencies of course. For the 500mV AC range, the manual specifies accuracy of 2.5% + 40d between 20 kHz ~ 100 kHz.The bench PSU was set to 3.000V DC, and connected to the multimeter using a coax BNC cable and a BNC-to-banana adapter. No load initially.In mV AC mode, I noticed how it kept drifting up from single digit mV, steadily upwards and not settling on a value for a long while. As if a cap was being slowly charged. Eventually I let it sit for an hour, and it settled around 120 mV - while the linear PSU's ripple/noise is << 10mV as confirmed by other measurements. With a 50 ohm load (BNC terminator), it would rise at a faster rate. In it's AC+DC modes though, readings seemed far more accurate and stable.Later I tested the 500mV AC range a bit more using a function generator. The BM869S is specified for 0.3% + 20d at 300 Hz ~ 5 kHz in this range. A 1 kHz sine wave of 100-500 mV RMS seemed to result in reasonably accurate values, matching my other meters. However introducing more than about 1V of DC offset seems to completely throw it off, and the values become wildly inaccurate beyond its already wide specs. In the 5V AC range it seems fine.The Hz secondary display in the mV AC range cut out much earlier, basically as soon as the DC offset + amplitude implies there are no 0V crossings anymore.So is that range not really AC coupled? Is it just my meter (defect) or do other BM869s behave the same?

author: Wytnucls
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 14, 2016, 02:16:33 pm
content: To measure Vrms accurately (2.5%+40), the value should be above 10% of range (ie 50mV in this case). True RMS converter limitation.Below 5% of range, no measurement is valid. Between 5% and 10%, add another 80 digits (2.5%+120). Your 10mV is well below the lower limit.With an offset, some meters need to have Vpeak stay within the selected range and have a zero crossing for frequency.I don't think there is anything wrong with your meter.

author: netman
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 08:38:00 pm
content: Quote from: Yago on December 19, 2014, 02:47:23 pmViewing angle on mine is pretty bad, I pretty much thought I had a defective unit but judging from the photo it's standard, that's about what mine looks like. Does yours also fade to unreadable if you view from above even just a bit over 90 degrees (with the backlight on)?

author: pascal_sweden
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 10:07:11 pm
content: I really wonder why it is that hard for a manufacturer to source a display that works under all viewing angles, implement that display in their entire product line, and stick with that display once and for all!!!Cheap brands like Uni-T, Vichy, have some models where the display has an excellent viewing angle.So it can definitely not be related to a cost issue, if the cheap brands can do it.It's just a matter of being consistent. The cheap brands should start using that "good display" in their entire product line.And the more expensive brands like Brymen, should do the same, under the motto, "whatever the cheap brands can, we can, and from now on we are going to be consistent once and for all, and no longer mess around with randomly selecting a display when designing a new multimeter, and after just hope the best for it, and say sorry if it has a bad viewing angle, and realize it's too late to change!"I really hope Brymen is reading along in this thread. Uni-T and Vichy might read along as wellTo Brymen, Uni-T, Vichy and all the other manufacturers of multimeters (including Fluke and the other big guys): get your act together on displays, and only take displays with excellent viewing anglesAnd no, this issue is not only a concern for display afficionados, to use Dave's wordsIt's a general concern, that affects all users! Viewing angles are so important for test gear!

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2016, 11:13:17 pm
content: I have a BM857a that has the old crappy backlight. With the backlight off the display is very crisp and black over a fairly wide range. It makes me think the quality control has been slipping at the lcd manufacturer since the s models. Desktop displays have a specification calleddesign eye centerwhich is the optimum location for the viewers eye ball. I think part of the annoyance of the Brymens is that their optimum design eye center is too low, meaning it is overly optimized for handheld use where you look down at the meter at an acute angle with the meter held at chest height. if they had made the central angle closer to 90 degrees we wouldn't notice so much with bench top use.

author: netman
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 12:09:42 am
content: Quote from: chickenHeadKnob on June 28, 2016, 11:13:17 pmA lousy backlight actually would be better than the -s one seen from above, with backlight off it's somewhat usable from that angle but looks blurry and dim.

author: CustomEngineerer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2016, 01:08:29 am
content: Quote from: pascal_sweden on June 28, 2016, 10:07:11 pmUni-t and Brymen both make cheap and not so cheap meters. They both cover the same price ranges, though Uni-T has several meters that are more expensive than the most expensive Brymen's that I can find, and several meters that are cheaper than the cheapest Brymen's. But for the most part they are equivalent price wise.

author: cluca1969
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 11:22:26 am
content: I read many reviews about BRYMEN 867 and 869s but none have fully clarified me very good so I would need some advice from you, what to choose between a Brymen 867 or a Brymen 869s ?Excluding the functions of double TEMP and VFD, which I do not need right now.There is so much difference in accuracy between BM867 - 0,003 vs. BM869s - 0,002 ?I already have one FLUKE 185 but I want one DMM with 500,000 counts.

author: chronos42
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 12:44:07 pm
content: Hi,beside of the 0.02% accuracy the 869s has a different and better AC part, so for me this was the main reason to buy this one.The 500000 counts seems impressive, but it is not in reality. It is only usefull if you want to see small voltage drifting. But it is still a 0.02% handheld meter, not a 500000 digit lab grade meter.Beside of this, the 876s is one of the best meter you can get fot this price.

author: cluca1969
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 04:58:29 pm
content: Hi chronos42,Thank you very much for useful information but I'm still undecided who to buy it, I need strong reasons to choose the best one.I've seen some tests on:http://www.118volt.it/en/brymen-bm869-bm867-batch-calibration-check/and I started to have some doubts about the BM896s.I think the difference between them is very relevant.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 05:43:51 pm
content: All of the meters shown are within specification. The BM869S has an accuracy specification of 0.02% +2D. This means that a 5V test source could be displayed as high as 5.0012V and as low as 4.9988VThe maximum error demonstrated in the pictures is 0.008%These images are not reasons to not want to buy a BM869S. If you want a meter that reads better than 0.01% you should be using a bench top meter that is left running all the time to keep it stable. You might have other reasons that you don't want to buy a BM869S but these images actually show that the meters meet their specifications.Edit: I can even quote the author of the link you posted "As you can see all meters are well within specs and the older meter does not exhibit any noticeable drift from the new multimeters.". This is all good news in favor of the BM869S, not against it. What is the problem?

author: cluca1969
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 06:13:18 pm
content: Hi Lightages,Thank you very much for your answer.My problem is, and here I am not strictly referring to BM867 & 869s.I have a few Reference Voltage 2.5V 5V 7.5V 10V and from time to time I like to check my multimeters.I have some DMM the oldest is 24 years old (HC-81 and DM27).1. HC-81 - powered 9V2. DM27 - powered 2 x AAA3. UT70B - powered 9V4. Fluke 185 - powered 2 x AA5. AN8008 - powered 2 x AAA6. Fluke 17B+ - powered 2 AASo, for me it is hard to accept that a DMM (AN8008) of $17 is more accurate than a DMM that costs $250 like BM869s.I hope you understand my concern over the accuracy versus the money spent on them regardless of brand.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 06:19:58 pm
content: Quote from: cluca1969 on November 04, 2017, 06:13:18 pmHow can you know that the AN8008 is more accurate when it could be out as much as 0.02% before you could see that difference? It does not have the resolution to show it. Even if it shows 5.000V with a 5V source it could be out as far as 0.02% before the last digit will change. The BM869S meters shown in the picture clearly demonstrate their accuracy better than 0.01%. The AN8008 can't resolve that difference. You are a little obsessed with a clean all X.0000 display IMHO.

author: cluca1969
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 06:45:15 pm
content: You're right, maybe it's an obsession for me to have an almost perfect DMM, may be an benchtop DMM.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 07:00:15 pm
content: Quote from: cluca1969 on November 04, 2017, 06:45:15 pmI understand the obsession with getting a "perfect" reading. One way to do this, when you do get a perfect reading, is to take a picture of it. Then in future when you get a need to see perfection you can just refer back to the picture. Like this:

author: cluca1969
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 04, 2017, 07:10:27 pm
content: Hi IanB,Yes, that's what I wanted to talk about.I will keep the pictures from you in my database and I compare them to other next situations.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 06, 2018, 07:04:02 am
content: NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.An optional additional explanation is: