advise PnP machine for $4000 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: almaz1c
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 01, 2020, 09:31:27 pm
content: Hello,I need to manufacture (mass production) following PCB:It is just 21 different part number in following footprints: 0.8mm pitch BGA; 0.5mm QFN; 0402.I have $4000 (maybe $5000) to buy PnP machine which able to manufacture that PCB for sure.I spent hundreds of hours browsing for available PnPs including this forum but still not sure which one to choose. Awful reviews for neoden 4 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/neoden-4-pick-and-place/) and charmhigh (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/charmhigh-t560p4-pnp-problems) scares me. Not about CHMT48VB but anyway.Almost no reviews of Smallsmt (VP-2500HP) and SMT550 (not sure about manufacturer).Boarditto has just few reviews and none of them about 0402.So, can someone advise me any PnP machine applicable for my needs and give a word that this machine will make me happy?

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2020, 09:36:42 pm
content: Why don't just contract it out? It will definitely be cheaper if you need a single run. You won't find anything good for that money unless you're ready to invest a crap ton of your time to get it up and running.

author: kylehunter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2020, 10:13:21 pm
content: Yeah, you're not going to be able to do this for even remotely close to that budget without killing yourself..That board isn't an easy board to place, you will 100% need vision, and pretty good vision at that. You absolutely need to contract it out.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2020, 11:18:48 pm
content: That said, I'm going to buy CHMT48VB in the near future, which would probably be able to handle your board. But I have no illusions that I will be able to get it up and running faster than 2-3 weeks after purchase, nor do I expect a 100% trouble-free operation thereafter. You always get what you pay for, and you need to keep this in mind and set your expectations accordingly. So as stated ("makes me happy") it won't cut it, and that's why I recommend contract assembly.

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 01:03:50 am
content: Quote from: almaz1c on September 01, 2020, 09:31:27 pmDon't do that. You will not be able to assemble this board on a $4000 machine. $10K, maybe. Outsource the assembly.You realize PNP alone is not enough? You need a good printer, and an oven.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 01:32:05 am
content: The key here is repeatability. The machine needs to accurate and at the same time consistent throughout the process. And a really good stenciling process. And if the BGA part gets misaligned and board is not working, unless you have an x-ray, all you can do is rework the board blindly. I would say, outsource unless you are willing to spend a lot of time on this (and definitely more money than USD4K). But, if you give this board to a phone repair guy, it would be a walk in the park for them.

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 02:01:04 am
content: For this sort of automation and precision, the machine-tool requires qualified engineering and assemblies (common knowledge, although I'm unsure if you are aware). I'm talking about thermally stable composites, alloy parts & mechanisms, tuned force/inertia motion driven axis'es (accel/decel), damping, and reliable harmonics/resonant frequencies. As in; the "bare minimum essential" that you need and certainly aren't going to get for $4k. That amount of money, more or less, will only get you a machine that "appears and move" like a Pick & Place machine (and the shipping crate it comes in), that's all.Therefore I wouldn't bother at all if I were you. Save that extra capital and outsource to a fab house equipped with half-decent machine-tools.

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 03:32:21 am
content: Quote from: ar__systems on September 03, 2020, 01:03:50 amI've put together $5k Juki lines (screen printer, oven, not including feeders). Currently, I have a samsung cp-60 spare parts machine in that price range. It's missing cameras, a few cards and a few minor knick knacks (probably $1-2k from china, maybe less). Im not interested in repairing right now otherwise I'd sell it for a lot more. Samsung cp machines are my favorite, easy to work on, repair, mechanical feeders, rock solid designs. Best of all easiest to program/train and work with. I have a vitronics reflow oven I can let go for a great price.In my experience repairing industrial pnp place machines are 100x better than trying to buy a chinese toy especially if you are serious about mass production.

author: MR
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 11:55:23 am
content: Quote from: ar__systems on September 03, 2020, 01:03:50 amI would even say the printer (and how the printer is used/configured) is the most important part for this PCB.Second vision of the pick and place machine.

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 01:31:20 pm
content: Quote from: Reckless on September 03, 2020, 03:32:21 amGood for you! However I would say the cost of these lines is way more after accounting your repair laborAnyway, I would not recommend that route to the poster either, since he appears to be completely clueless about challenges of SMT process.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 03:54:42 pm
content: I don't think you will have any joy in that price range unless you have lots of spare time and a good amount of prior PnP experience.But read this for some potential ideas:https://www.rocketscream.com/blog/2020/07/04/picking-the-right-or-wrong-pick-and-place-machine/

author: Reckless
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 05:39:08 pm
content: I think there are different kind of people and some like to tinker with these machines. I personally love inspiring high schoolers to get into electronics and love giving demonstrations. When I was a kid my dad took me to factories in far east and got me into SMT electronics back in late 1990s. Changed my life, other parents showing their son hot rods, some choppers, I was into Fujis. Someone who loves computers usually loves electronic manufacturing. How electronics are made. I just gave a introduction to a 16 year old last week. I love leaving them mind blown and thirsty for more. Such people its not about money its about knowledge. If someone has the space for it, I recommend spending $10-15k. Better than wasting it on some other toy. It does become a slightly expensive hobby but it also prints money.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 06:31:06 pm
content: Those are fairly fine-pitch components, you need an accurate machine.13 years ago i got a used Philips CSM84 machine for about $3600 with feeders. It has served me well, but the fine-pitch parts I am using now are beyond that machine's capabilities. I just bought a Samsung/Quad QSA-30A which should be much more accurate, at auction for $500.But, it needs a LOT of work to get it fully running. I'm still waiting on a circuit board from Korea that will hopefully get it running. I have already replaced a number of parts and fixed some other things. I have about $3000 invested in this machine so far.From seeing what the Neoden and similar machines go for, with feeders, I think $4K is not going to be possible with a new machine. With careful selection, and a bunch of luck, you might be able to do this with a used machine in your budget.Jon