IoT Robot Vacuum cleaners. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2018, 09:20:16 am
content: I've been asked this morning to proivide a WiFi Internet connection for the latest poiece of junk technology, a robot vacuum cleaner that facilities want to put in place!The sales droid can't answer why it needs one, they can't tell me what it receives or sends so I've referred it to Infosec who will kibosh the whole idea but seriously, WTF?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 17, 2018, 09:38:12 am
content: Quote from: CJay on July 17, 2018, 09:20:16 amGreat devices those robot vacuums, I use one at home. Thankfully it's one of the earlier iRobot models which has no WiFi or Bluetooth - you press the button, it cleans the floor.It's just one of these things that doesn't need to be connected to the internet.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2018, 01:24:18 pm
content: The ones I've seen appear to just use your phone as a glorified remote control. It seems that any decent design should work fine standalone. So I'd tell them "Love to have one but it must be able to function without an internet connection."

author: bugmenot
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 02:01:46 pm
content: NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.An optional additional explanation is:

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 02:09:09 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on July 17, 2018, 09:20:16 amWell, 1/ because it's hype and 2/ telemetry. The additional features it would bring customers are really completely secondary IMO. Do you really need to control your vacuum cleaner when you're not home? Would you even trust it to function completely unattended? What if it goes bonkers while you're not there to stop it?And now if it's for a simple remote control (for when you're actually there), do you really need your "remote" to push data all the way through half of the planet to control a device a couple meters away?Manufacturers are eager to know how their products are used, get statistics out of that, etc. Guess that's really the main reason.The privacy issues are, of course, increasingly concerning.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2019, 11:31:06 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on July 17, 2018, 09:20:16 amI for one have considered a monitor for my robovac so that when it's stuck somewhere it can alert me via wireless and I can free it or whatever ... providing I can actually find it!

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 03:26:33 am
content: I have one of the earlier Roomba non-bluetooth or Wi-Fi models. It actually does a very reasonable job. But yes, things like vacuum cleaners are just an example of something that doesn't need an internet connection. I wonder if they still operate if you block their access to the internet?

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 03:32:41 am
content: The idea is probably neat but the execution probably sucks, as all IoT shit. If it ran as a localized web server that you can control remotely by VPNing in it would be neat especially if it has a camera. But knowing the trend of IoT shit, it probably requires some stupid app and to register on their servers and probably uses a central server rather than something you control.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 03:37:54 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on September 20, 2019, 03:26:33 amI have a discontinued Philips Roomba type vac and it's really good, the floor is spotless, it doesn't seem to miss anything, but it does eventually shutdown if it can't proceed or the battery is low.Harvey Norman had it on special (dumping I guess) for $90 about 6 years ago and I couldn't resist it and I'm glad because it's so good.I love the sound of vacuuming but only when a robot is doing it and not me

author: djacobow
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 05:38:36 am
content: I'm not gonna name names, but I worked at an IoT startup that shipped known borked firmware just so they could meet some arbitrary schedule. "We'll fix it later with an OTA update!"Sadly, that wasn't an isolated incident; I've seen the exact same behavior at another firm.This is how the kids are doing it now. Everything has to be on the Internet so that it can be treated like the Internet.

author: hagster
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 06:32:49 am
content: I have a Robot Vacuum that connects to the internet so am in a good place to comment.1. Why. The WiFi link allows you to use an app to control and program the cleaner from anywhere in the world. It also provides alerts if anything does go wrong such as tangled in cables or stuck under a chair. It tells you if the filter needs cleaning or the bin needs emptying. It's actually a very smart bit of kit with sensors on every motor so it won't burn out if if gets jammed.2. What data does it send. I haven't done a wireshark on it, but I generally assume worst case. It can send a map, pattern of life back to any unknown actor. It also has access to your WiFi key and all data on that subnet.3. Is it any good. Yes ours is brilliant. Ignoring the security issues. I can see this as a thing every office building could benefit from.Mine will actually work fine without an internet connection, which is how I actually use it.My advice would be to create a separate WiFi network for devices like this. It should be sandboxes on its own subnet and with a separate WiFi key.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 03:42:11 pm
content: My advice would be to open the thing up, and cut off the supply rails to the transciever chip. You know full well it's running without your consent, as all spyware IoT shit does, so cripple the bastard.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 03:45:04 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on September 20, 2019, 03:42:11 pmAgreed.But of course it would void the warranty. And if the manufacturer is very twisted, it may even prevent the device from functioning altogether...

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 04:02:14 pm
content: Quote from: djacobow on September 20, 2019, 05:38:36 amQuite right!But as I said, don't underestimate the power of telemetry for companies, and of course especially IoT companies. For them, Internet access IS an essential part of the business model. It's not just used out of ease of development. As to borked firmware, it's unfortunately become very common. The whole concept of MVP that is dear to agile teams/startups has only made things worse in that respect. Minimum says it all pretty much, and the "viable" part often means that customers are beta testers, and by the time they realize the products they bought are crap, the company has already sold enough that it can pretend that the product was indeed viable (because it sold!)But, you're making a good point as to ease/cost of development as well. Beyond the fact that IoT is hype, if you need to implement some kind of remote control for your device, it's now very simple, and costs only pennies per device, to just add a WIFI controller, rather than implement it with another, more local wireless technology... Even adding bluetooth instead is usually more expensive both in terms of parts and in terms of dev time. So when it's not merely for the telemetry thing, it's just for cheap development.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 04:14:41 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on September 20, 2019, 03:45:04 pmRead out the signals with a logic analyzer beforehand and replicate the response with a simple micro.

author: Twoflower
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 04:31:05 pm
content: I've read that you actually should connect the vacuum to your network and block any connections out of your LAN (e.g. use a guest network and block all traffic). Otherwise some cleaners enter an access point mode which allows to hijack your robot if you're close enough. Which is especially bad if they can abuse the camera of some models to check is someone is at home.Of course the 'cut the wire' approach works as well but it might get a bit complicated if you ask for a warranty repair...I'm happy with my Vacuum Cleaner since many years. Fortunately it's also a dumb one.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2019, 08:42:35 pm
content: Big modern companies...Respecting warranty repair when their products are already janky...Just ask Louis Rossmann

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 23, 2019, 09:57:44 am
content: Quote from: djacobow on September 20, 2019, 05:38:36 amSounds like the latest Apple IOS update ;-)

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2019, 04:33:43 pm
content: 13.1 imminent

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2019, 04:44:45 pm
content: If you remove the "OTA" part, that just sounds like most software updates these days.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 24, 2019, 01:45:48 am
content: Quote from: hagster on September 20, 2019, 06:32:49 amA colleague of mine did this. He has a dog. The dog was inside and had an "accident" inside the house. The vacuum tracked poop all through the house as it went about its duties.I was in stitches due to laughter when he told me.