Oscilloscopes again - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: WanaGo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2011, 04:11:06 am
content: HelloI am currently on the hunt for an entry-mid level oscilloscope, however am struggling like everyone to find reviews.At the moment I am looking seriously at the ADS1102CML.I just came across this website (http://www.toolboom.com) and wondered if anyone has dealt with them?$520USD for one of these.http://toolboom.com/en/Digital-Storage-Oscilloscope-ATTEN-ADS1102CML.php$650 for one of these.http://toolboom.com/en/Digital-Storage-Oscilloscope-ATTEN-ADS1152CML.phpCheersJames

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2011, 04:59:42 am
content: The Atten is attractive but you shouldn't judge equipment by its appearance, its inside that counts, and so far there are no objective tests done on it.There is an earlier post on eevblog about it, including a video by a Russian vendor, but its a how-to rather than a eevblog quality performance test.A quick simple test is pass a 10 MHz square wave on it and if it looks square, its a good sign; no artifacts, no heavy noise on the tops, and sharp corners. If you have one, give it a 3.5 nS or faster pulse should register per its specs sheet. If it passes that, at least the most critical parts of the scope are fine.P.S. Don't blindly buy a Rigol 1102 or 1052e from a non-authorized vendor, something strange is going on in terms of its quality control, its either Rigol is making them much worse than before or there are some very good counterfeits being sold. See this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=3738.msg50057#msg50057The issue pictured above is worse than the bad firmware they released with v2.05.

author: WanaGo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2011, 06:32:58 am
content: Thanks for the advise.Yes I have looked at the Rigol 1052e however I dont necessarely like going with the crowd - which is silly at times, however I am ideally wanting a 100Mhz scope. I know you can get the 100Mhz version (1102) or hack them to make them 100Mhz etc, however I would prefer to buy something suitable to start with. Its a pity I cant make an educated decision with there being no information online.And yes you are right, there are no tests done yet, which makes it hard to decide - as above - but someone has to start this else no one is going to buy them.That said, I dont want to necessarely be the guinnee pig and buy it and find its a sack of poo.A number of suppliers here in NZ have said that Attens are good entry/mid level scopes though and do recommended them over their experience of Rigol, however I dont know if they are saying this with their sales hat on or their technical hat on - if they have a technical hat. They offer a 2 year or 3 year warranty with the Atten, and only 1 year with the Rigol.I can buy a ADS1102CML locally through a friend who is an electrician and has a good relationship with his suppliers, for about $850+gst NZ. So warranty would be local at least.I have talked to the guy in the post you refer to with the Russian video at the top, however I am still waiting for him to do the testing mentioned in the post.*sigh*

author: WanaGo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2011, 10:24:24 am
content: I just got this email from toolboom.com, after asking how the 24 month warranty works when I am in NZ and they are in HK. I said I have had bad experience when purchasing overseas, returning the product and never hearing back again or receiving the product back.QuoteWonder how they compare to places like goodluckbuy, dealexcel etc?

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2011, 10:42:48 am
content: Most warranties are covered by contract law binding in the country of origin, and unless they send you a warranty contract separate from the scope manufacturer, they can sales talk you anyway they like, and its meaningless. If for some reason there is a contract, and they didn't honor it, you can sue them in court, but you'll have to go to China yourself to face them."not going with the crowd" is not a wise route when it comes to electronics gear. There's a reason some are popular and others not, its not about being 'in', it about what is analyzed the most.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2011, 12:31:30 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on June 15, 2011, 10:42:48 amsure if the crowd all 100% satisfied. but rigol got issues recently that maybe enough reason for new buyer to find another brand. to review, maybe we will find a better alternative/solution. rigol seems to be over their head right now. i agree with both of you. you said it has not been reviewed extensively, thats true. but OP said, then who else if not us (him) to make the first step. just like you saturation, the pioneer of 3x25 review

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2011, 07:15:18 pm
content: Thanks mecha for the compliment.If I do buy something before anyone else, its because I can either cannibalize it for parts or worse, throw it away; since electronics is 'toxic waste' and needs to be recycled, its a big waste to throw anything away if we just do proper homework before we buy.Gear that use FPGA or ASICs, are nearly useless if its designed poorly, there very little to cannibalize that you can reuse.For Hantek 3x25, I did review other people's reviews first, and it had big pictures!https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=2170.msg29355#msg29355Atten scopes are a risky buy, I haven't change the opinion posted here, but you are right mecha, someone has to be first to give a big review, that's a lot of risk for $520 Atten vs $400 for a Rigol 1052e:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=2366.0Here's is the most technical review of the Atten that I can find anywhere on the 'net, by our own, and well respected poster, tinhead:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1571.msg21170#msg21170The most important quote is this:Today it would be probably UT2102CEL or ATTEN ADS1102CML, but honestly UNI-T did changed display (but still same crap sample memory), but theycheating with resolution. Each "visible" pixel is combination of 4 display pixels, so you have 400x240 and not 800x480 resolution. ATTEN ADS1102CML have only 480x234 pix resoltion.When scope makers need trickery to use larger LCDs as a selling point but still have the resolution of a small LCD, why did they use the big screen for? What other tricks are inside the scope?For reference, the small LCD Rigol 1052e screen is 320 × 234, the important item is the vertical resolution, which is the same, 234 for the large Atten screen.Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 15, 2011, 12:31:30 pm

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2011, 07:46:13 pm
content: Based on links provided, assuming this is true, these specs as printed are pretty large for vertical amplitude variation with frequency:DC-10% of rated BW: ± 1dB10%-50% of rated BW: ± 2dB50%-100% of rated BW: ± 3dBIf true, from DC to 10 MHz, +- 12%, to 50 MHz, 24%, to 100 MHz 41%? This is independent of DC accuracy of the vertical amplifier.Quote from: WanaGo on June 15, 2011, 04:11:06 am

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2011, 08:40:04 pm
content: it doesnt look bad athttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=3648.0,and the OP gave positive to it (roughly). but i agree, the measurement accuracy is the most important, thats the thing the OP should work out and compare with other brand. then memory, GS/s etc performance. other than that, aesthetic appearance etc, should be last to consider. China is known to overspec their product (and underspec too!) so could be hard to look at the manual spec alone.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2011, 08:51:51 pm
content: about the bw flatness, rigol did not specify it in their datasheet, could be better, could be worst. and nobody on earth (google at least) are capable of reporting the true flatness of this cheapo line of digital scopes (rigol, atten, hantek etc).Quote from: saturation on June 15, 2011, 07:46:13 pm

author: WanaGo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 12:58:45 am
content: Thanks for the replies.Some good stuff has been mentioned.You are right about going against the flow for electronics, but as mentioned, the Atten may be a great product but it just hasnt been proved yet. It would be nice if someone did a review on this asap, haha.Another scope that was recommended to me was the Instek GDS-1062A. 60Mhz scope, but boasts similar sort of specs to the Atten as far as I can tell, but has an appropriate sized screen.Really not sure which way to go. Rigol and the issues I have read about so far has started to put me off, as there is an element of risk involved there already, and this risk could be seen to be just as great as gambling with the atten who is yet unproven.For around $600US, which way 'should' I jump?I mainly deal with microcontrollers <= 20Mhz, and associated electronics.Here is the project I am working on and developing at the moment, and ideally I want a decent scope to finalise this design and for any further projects I have. I need to prove each of my boards with a scope before I get a couple of panels printed.http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php/topic,61643.0.htmlRegardsJames

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 01:54:12 am
content: one thing that is significant for me though (just found out) available in rigol but not in other scope issoftwarebandwidth limit/filter (high,low,mid pass/reject) on/off feature. where the other scope like hantek/instek do not provide, they simply brickwall signal > dso bw, you need to hack to reveal this signal. the atten in the other thread i linked above showing it is using similar software/OS used by instek. pls make sure if atten can do "software bandwidth filter", otherwise you'll stuck with 100MHz in case you want to go further. in this modern day of computing, software can be as much important as hardware. something that can be done by hardware is simply blocked by software (pointing finger at software monkeys of dso makers). i'm grateful to have rigol which recommended by admin the 1st place i came here. but with the newer batch of rigol, i dont know what to say now.

author: WanaGo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 02:10:59 am
content: I just got this reply from toolboom.com again, in regards to the Atten CML.QuoteHe has offered to answer technical questions, so.... Does anyone have any specific questions I should ask him

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 02:34:54 am
content: software bandwidth limit/filter? and ask to take screenshot of the menu.if they cannot give accurate answer or give some excuse, then see below..."It very good product and selling very hot world wide.""Is you are interested in some technical questions please feel free to ask."you always hear this bullshit from salemen, no matter how stupid they are.but its not saying the product is bad, its just thats how they communicate.in the end, you have to do your own homework. self study the review from real buyers in the net,or just take the risk and buy it and become the first reviewer.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 02:46:17 am
content: you said you've contacted the guy who bought it, if you still dont have an answer from him, then its a bad sign. wait for few more days or weeks maybe he's busy. but if he's around posting, but dont give you an answer, then its a very bad sign. people will tend to shut up if they've found they made a mistake.Quote

author: WanaGo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 05:24:14 am
content: Saturation said this in the post in the General section about the Atten scopeQuoteShould I send that to toolboom too and see if they can do that testing, and show the results with screenshots?I have asked the question above also - thanks Mechatrommer

author: WanaGo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 05:52:03 am
content: Ooo I just got an email from Rigol which I sent a week or so ago, asking for NZ or Ausi distributors. They said to have a look here:https://secure1.ozhosting.com/emona/shop/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=72Price is pretty damn good, especially from a local supplier - meaning warranty should be handy too.I also see they sell this one:https://secure1.ozhosting.com/emona/shop/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=96Interesting.

author: RCMR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 06:02:30 am
content: Don't forget that those prices are probably Oz-dollars which are now worth a bit more than US dollars, but you're right. -- good prices. Wish I'd seen that before I bought my scope and logic analyzer!

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 06:15:24 am
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 15, 2011, 08:51:51 pmWell, actually,anyone with a good signal generator & spectrum analyser (SA) should be able to do this test.Obviously,you have to be able to trust the spectrum analyser---but you can't distrust everything!With the SA set for 1 dB per division,you should be able to interpolate to around 0.2 dB,which is around 2.3% whentransferred to the DSO voltage scale.Remember you will have to terminate the DSO in 50 ohms.Connecting both devices in parallel is not a good idea,so you will have to hope that the signal generator level doesn't change in the second or so it takes to swap the lead over from the SA input to that of the DSO.It will be very time consuming,as you will have to check a number of spot frequencies,but it will give you a very good idea of the frequency response of the DSO.I think the main problem is that those people who want to do this test don't have the equipment,while those with theequipment,either have Agilent & Tektronix Oscilloscopes in their labs & don't care,or are those selling the various inexpensive DSOs who don't particularly want to tell us the real response of their devices.On another matter;One interesting test to do to a DSO is to try to display onefieldof a PAL or NTSC video signal (usually available at the video output of a digital set top box,or a DVD player)If it looks OK,this shows that the 'scope has fairly good memory depth,& doesn't reduce the sample rate excessivelyat long time/div settings.VK6ZGO

author: WanaGo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 06:29:19 am
content: Quote from: RCMR on June 16, 2011, 06:02:30 amVery valid point.I have contacted them anyway. Rigol suggested they may be able to offer a demonstration scope for testing - so will see how that goes.

author: WanaGo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 07:02:30 am
content: Another email from ToolboomQuoteI have asked if he can record something and put it on Youtube so multiple people can see it. Will see how that goes.

author: WanaGo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 08:07:09 am
content: If someone here with experience of scopes wants to get the Engineers demonstration of the Atten ADS1102CML, they have said the engineer is ready to give the demo if you can Skype them.Now is not a good time for me to do this, and I also dont really know what to ask them to test.Is there someone here that can do this?skype:toolboom.com?callQuoteI hope someone is willing, it will give us more information about this model.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 16, 2011, 01:32:47 pm
content: Yes, that's the most important thing, its easier than getting a single video frame, as all you nee is a signal generator and the scope. Static photos are fine.Fact is skyping them also means getting a sales pitch, and if they don't know enough to post a simple frequency response test on youtube even to make their own sales about their own products, makes me wonder what kind of skills they possess.Quote from: WanaGo on June 16, 2011, 05:24:14 am

author: cyberfish
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2011, 02:20:18 am
content: QuoteNote that that's the GDS-1000 series instead of the now more popular (I think?) GDS-1000A. The 1000A has much longer memory and higher sampling rate. I have been using a GDS-1062A for a few months and do recommend it (I have written a review for it on this site, too, if you search for it).

author: WanaGo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2011, 06:18:59 am
content: Damn just did a long reply and got a page cannot be found - gaa.Try again, but summarise.Emona just offered me the Rigol 1052E for $370US including shipping, which is quite amazing. I believe they setup and calibrate the unit too, which I dont think the online stores do unless you pay for it. Local support too.I am still very interested in the Intek GDS1062A and the Atten ADS1102CM or CML.The cheapest Intek I can see is from tequipment for about $480US including shipping, but support would not be local. I have asked Emona if they sell this.The Atten I can get but its more expensive, but no reviews so still unsure about it.The Rigol is looking rather nice at the moment.I will read your review Cyberfish - Thanks

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2011, 10:32:08 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 16, 2011, 01:54:12 ami think you misunderstood my statement. Hantek/Tekway does have software filter function (low pass, high pass, band pass, band stop), selectable from 1Hz to 247MHz (since fw 2.6.x)The brick filter i was talking about is internal filter used by the firmware itself to define the model bandwidth, and to bevery honest Rigol is doing it in exact the same way. The thing what different on Hantek/Tekway is that the brick filtercan be manipulated by a specific hack (/tst file hack) which allow to set whatever bw limitation.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2011, 08:58:57 am
content: Quote from: tinhead on June 21, 2011, 10:32:08 pmthanx for clarifying. last time i also downloaded and read hantek manual and i cannot see fw filter menu. as you said its in latest fw. so i guess rigol still have this internal brickwall filter? last time i tried to check 400mhz signal out of an rf transmitter, sometime i managed to see the signal, but sometime i cannot see because the signal is already modulated with digital data, difficult to see the 400mhz and with my limited knowledge in radio. i should try harder next time and figure out how to output stable 400mhz signal.fyi: in rigol filter menu we can set to low pass filter (apart from the fancy bandpass and reject) that can be set to freq way larger than the scope bw ie 50,100mhz, up to 1++GHzinsane! that indicates that rigol should pass 400mhz signal. but i'll never know exactly unless the fw is hacked to see how it do its work.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2011, 10:26:21 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 22, 2011, 08:58:57 amWhich is why a scope isn't that useful for looking at radio signals.Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 22, 2011, 08:58:57 amExpect to have issues with triggering unless you signal is very strong (in vertical divs), if it will trigger at all. Good scopes usually trigger well beyond their rated bandwidth, but I wouldn't count on ~7 times the BW.Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 22, 2011, 08:58:57 amIt more likely indicates that somebody forgot to put a sane upper limit in the firmware.

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2011, 02:20:46 am
content: Quote from: alm on June 22, 2011, 10:26:21 pmboth channels signals and external trigger are switched by LMH6574 before they go to ECL comp,so the bw of the switch is reducing the max. trigger frequency.If you check the datasheet of LMH6574 and the Rf resitor used in Rigol E you will see that the -3db for trigger is by ~ 350MHz.HanTekway is using different Rf values, the trigger is working even in autosetup for 400MHz, whcih is more than enough.Quote from: alm on June 22, 2011, 10:26:21 pm... or just put something without any sense (like these FFT values beyond any bw limits).

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2011, 05:33:53 am
content: Quote from: tinhead on June 23, 2011, 02:20:46 ami dont need triggering, i need a stable 400mhz, and the run/stop button.Quote from: tinhead on June 23, 2011, 02:20:46 ami should put my finger in their nose!

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2011, 07:47:53 pm
content: Quote from: tinhead on June 23, 2011, 02:20:46 amWhat about the comparator?Quote from: Mechatrommer on June 23, 2011, 05:33:53 amIf you want to look at a 400MHz signal, get a 2GHz scope. No amount of tinkering is going to make a DS1052E into one. Although I fail to see the point of using a scope to look at modulated signals.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2011, 06:45:38 am
content: Quote from: alm on June 23, 2011, 07:47:53 pmi'm not into tinkering 50mhz scope into 2ghz. i just want to see the remaining (attenuated) signal be displayed on the scope, to see whether it brickwalled it or not.Quote from: alm on June 23, 2011, 07:47:53 pmnot your faultthe point is i dont have a stable 400mhz signal.