(Edited again)Are there any very long range and heavy payload flying object? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2014, 07:07:01 am
content: Hello, I need to find an RC helicopter with a camera on, which the helicopter can be controlled over internet, and send back the real time video also via internet, the helicopter uses cellphone's 3G signal of course, the controller (computer or cellphone) can use any network and run at any place. Are ther such kind of product?Thanks!EDIT: OK, mans, maybe I should enlarge my range of needing, there's no matter whether if it's a real helicopter, any flying objects are OK, and, if you can help find a radio based "flying object" with no less than 3-5km control range, it needn't to be internet based either...(I asked for a internet based one because I haven't found any copter have the long range as I needed)EDIT AGAIN: I researched for the AR Drone 2, and found it is really good, especially the control is very user-friendly and may able to hack to control over internet, but its payload ability is too low (only several hundreds of grams including itself) that I won't be able to mount anything a bit heavier, even a larger battery can stop it from taking off, are there any similar multirotor to AR Drone but have a heavier lifting ability? Maybe 3 or more kilograms? I want to mount some batterys, cameras, and other equipments on it.Thanks.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2014, 07:19:18 am
content: Latency ?

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2014, 07:38:30 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on April 21, 2014, 07:19:18 amI knew it's a problem, but if it doesn't fly very fast, it will be OK, and it will be good to have a protection system, if the signal is lost, keep in position or fly back automaticlly.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2014, 08:45:56 am
content: You could use a waypoint based flight controller in the heli and share the ground based interface as a webgui over the internet.That way you could tell it where to fly over the net and latency wouldn't be an issue.I expect something like this already exists but i've not seen it.It wouldn't be hard to make, if not available.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2014, 12:03:31 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on April 21, 2014, 08:45:56 amThank you, that's a good idea, but I want to control it derectly, additionally, I need another action control beside the flight control(perform like a trigger).

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2014, 03:14:44 pm
content: Have you ever flown an RC model of any kind? Have you ever saw anyone doing so? I guess not, otherwise you'd know it's a strictly realtime thing and next to no latency of any kind is allowed. Take a broomstick and try to balance it on the tip of your finger. Good, now have someone do the same over Skype, with you watching him and shouting instructions. It would be possible only if you had an autopilot capable of fully autonomous operation. In other words, it had to be capable of flying and maintaining position all by itself. Also, do you mean actual helicopter or the multirotor?

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2014, 03:20:03 pm
content: Yes, there are such things. Flying over the internet is fine as long as latency isn't too bad. It doesn't need to be zero-latency, it just needs to be as low as possible.The Parrot AR Drone 2 is flown over TCP/IP, and you can set it up to associate to an existing access point, rather than providing its own AP that you connect to. In this way it would be possible to fly it over the internet. The AR Drone doesn't automatically fly home, though, it just hovers when you disconnect, or if you're landed when you disconnect, it does nothing.Auto fly-home is dangerous, because very, very few copters have automatic obstacle avoidance. They just bee-line it straight for the place you configured as "home," completely forgetting that there may be something in the way. They'll just crash right into whatever is in the way without a second thought, be it a person, an interior wall, or a building.

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2014, 03:47:09 pm
content: Quote from: Rigby on April 21, 2014, 03:20:03 pmAR Drone is a multirotor, which I wouldn't call a helicopter. There's a big difference between the two when it comes to the inherent stability. Proper (Sikorsky-type) helicopters have noneThey will actively try to crash as soon as you get distracted for a millisecond. Granted, there's been a great advance in electronic stability systems recently (accelerometer, gyro and GPS-based), but flying a reasonably-sized helicopter model over Internet would be asking for trouble for the reasons you've already mentioned.EDIT:And there's wind. The smaller the model, the more sensitive it gets to the lightest of wind gusts. And I meansensitive.

author: 8086
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2014, 03:53:14 pm
content: If you want to control the helicopter, and not just give it a location and let it fly itself there, there is literally no way to make it work and make it flyable.I've flown RC helicopters and it is not easy, and you will not be able to do it successfully with more than a few ms latency. It's something you either do in person, or not at all.I think the way to do this if you want to control a helicopter via the internet is to have the helicopter fly itself and you just tell it where you want it to go.Quadcopter maybe?

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2014, 04:12:11 pm
content: Not going to happen as op wants (read again for others), even using a smart brained copter or even a quad rotor.Forget about the flying stuff, here a simple proof of concept, get two cell phones that have video camera and both are connected to internet.Now cover your both eyes completely from the world but only watching the live video at one cellphone that is displaying the live video feed from other cell phone as your virtual eyes.Remember, no peeking, now try to walk around your house at normal human walking speed, and also try climb up/down the stair too.

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2014, 05:03:56 pm
content: -

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 21, 2014, 05:18:08 pm
content: Try the NSA or air force, they seem to be the experts in the field of drones.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 01:29:00 am
content: Quote from: Zbig on April 21, 2014, 03:14:44 pmThank you, I don't have flown any RC before... I do want it with a auto pilot if possible, also, I'm not meaning it must be a helicopter, any "RC flying object" are OK.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 01:34:40 am
content: Quote from: 8086 on April 21, 2014, 03:53:14 pmQuad copter is OK, but is it possible to make the accuracy not greater than 1 or 2 meters if I don't control it by myself and let the GPS complete it?

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 01:39:24 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on April 21, 2014, 03:20:03 pmSo for the Parrot AR Drone 2, the controller and the copter must be connect to the same AP? Thanks.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 01:48:24 am
content: OK, mans, maybe I should enlarge my range of needing, there's no matter whether if it's a real helicopter, any flying objects are OK, and, if you can help find a radio based "flying object" with no less than 3-5km control range, it needn't to be internet based either...(I asked for a internet based one because I haven't found any copter have the long range as I needed)Thank you!

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 02:15:52 am
content: Budget ?

author: bench_knob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 02:27:47 am
content: Quote from: sam1275 on April 21, 2014, 05:07:01 PM>QuoteI own several RC helicopters. It is my opinion, having flown these type toys for many years (each crash avg around $100 U$), that they are not remotely flyable unless they are heavily modified using electronics for inertial stabilization. Also, for your information, it was reported, that I was the first person in the world to fly an RC helicopter carrying a real-time television camera, a fete featured in and was published in Video Maker magazine in 1992. That was accomplished using an Excel 60 ($5000), with a Ham band transmitter and a CCD camera mounted on a home-brew servo mount on the skid. if one is patient, is reasonably well coordinated, one may learn, depending on one's motor skills, to reasonally fly an RC helicopter (without crashing), provided one practice flies frequently, in about six months. It is time consuming and emotionally taxing to say the least. They are exceptionally easy to crash. And expensive too.However, tri/quad/hexa-copters are essentially auto-stable platforms which require little if any flight skill to operate unlike any RC swash-plate helis and they are much cheaper too. Look on around on the 'Net, there are many for sale that could be operated in the manner that you desire. Doing so will require a bit of engineerig but it is feasible, in my opinion. There ARE kids who fly their quadcopter's via the mounted CCD camera through the 'viewport' of their iPhone screen. As for interfacing a porportional radio transmitter through an InterNet port, best check with your government's radio transmission regulations. Here in the US, unattended, (remote operated) RC transmitter operation is illegal. However it is electrically doable. When you fly things like that, you might also consider taking out insurance in the case of a accident. Also, in many states of the US, RC helicopters are banned from over-flying residential areas. Multi-rotor craft will likely also be covered under that ban.bench_knob

author: Teledog
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 02:55:14 am
content: There was just a news story here (BC, Canada) about a drone interfering with a passenger aircraft at YVR.http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/drone-flight-near-vancouver-airport-attracts-transport-canada-rcmp-attention-1.1788494..All these **sholes are going to do is make them illegal to own/operate without a licence.So much for your kids playing in the back yard with them .BTW..there are WIFI hacks to "take over control" of the new parrot drones.... {end rant}

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 03:23:41 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on April 26, 2014, 02:15:52 amHow about $500?

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 03:25:12 am
content: Quote from: bench_knob on April 26, 2014, 02:27:47 amThank you, it seems I should choose a multi-motor type.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 03:28:09 am
content: Quote from: Teledog on April 26, 2014, 02:55:14 amThere's no airport nearby, so I think it's not a problem.

author: Rigby
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 05:36:35 am
content: Quote from: Teledog on April 26, 2014, 02:55:14 amOnly if you configure it stupidly. All the regular WiFi security rules apply, and WPA2 is supported. So, yeah, if you associate it with an existing AP and give it a static IP, then let a friend know which IP you've given the copter, then yes, they can be "hijacked." All the regular WiFi security rules apply.I've flown a Parrot AR Drone 2 over wifi for a half-mile (all the way across my corporate campus) with < 10ms latency. It was just fine.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 06:39:59 am
content: You probably could fly it in realtime assuming ideal conditions....- LTE 4G connection- Perfect reception- Special video codec designed for < 30ms latencyThe main issue with the video link is that most video codecs do temporal compression. This means they need to buffer n frames in the past before they can start producing an output stream. So the latency is terrible by design.MJPG codec would work but it doesn't look the best.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 08:44:17 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on April 26, 2014, 05:36:35 amBut it seems a regular AP won't provide a enough range for me.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 08:46:18 am
content: Quote from: Psi on April 26, 2014, 06:39:59 amMaybe I can use a separetly wireless video system, now I just want to find a very long range RC flying object with auto stablizition.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 12:14:06 pm
content: The best system i've seen is a broadcast quality low latency DVBt video transmitter.I cant remember the exact output power, a few watts i think, but it was designed to work flawlessly for 1km through buildings in a RF noisy city environment. So would likely go MUCH more than that with a little noise or in a less RF noisy area.It was about 80x50x15mm in size and cost $4kAt the other end of the spectrum is the FPV gear. It's SD of course but you can make a damn good system with a 1W 1.2/2.4ghz TX and a 4 channel diversity RX system (multiple receivers with high gain antennas in all possible directions. Total cost maybe $300 but you have to buy all the bits and assemble it all yourself.

author: kc9qvl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 12:31:24 pm
content: The newer pixhawk auto pilot might meet your needs. I don't know how you would get mobile wifi working though. Maybe a 3gs dongle. hmm.Your $500.00 budget nope. not even close.http://pixhawk.org/

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 01:23:27 pm
content: Sam1275,For $500 you will get about 1/5th to 1/10th of the budget you require, and importantly you will get about 0% of the experience you require in completing your goal. Seems to me you have the basic idea of the possible technologies involved but are lacking any experience in everything else.I have flown quadcopters/RC planes via FPV and touched very briefly on the automonous aspect and it's very, very tough to do.My advice is that you build/buy an RC plane and build in one of those autopilot interfaces and you'll have dipped your toe in the water so to speak. Seehttp://www.rangevideo.com/en/Ian.

author: electr_peter
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 20, 2014, 05:48:38 pm
content: Quote from: bench_knob on April 26, 2014, 02:27:47 amI am training with special simulators and small RC helicopters in order to eventually fly CP RC helicopters. I have some experience to know how hard it can be. As other EEVblog members mentioned, RC helicopters are unbelievably hard to fly:RC helis are really unstable and react very fast to minuscule change in the controls. One wrong move and you have lost control.you have to always (always!) look at heli to know orientation, location and speed.Once heli got some speed, it becomes a crude plane, which is a bit easier to control. However, to get to speed flying, first you must know how to hover/stop.heli always moves while in the air, some FPV solutions are not common (very shaky). Also, FPV is used for general orientation purposes, it is still not good and fast enough to fly heli (only for stable aircraft).if you crash (and you will), then depending on the size of the helicopter and your luck either of these things happen:RC heli breaks (from minor scratch to complete devastation and fire)RC breaks someone else's property (those blades can fly far away)RC heli injuries you, your friend or passer bysome combination of above. Crash is not funny, very expensive and potentially deadly experience.Thus, I would strongly recommend some platform other than RC helicopter for stated purpose. RC helicopter can be stabilised, but it requires significant effort. Helicopter poses significant danger if it was to lose control - it would drop from the sky like a turned on lawnmower, while quadro copter would be more like turned off lawnmower.Also, public and aviation law generally forbids to some level (in most countries, I suspect) flying unmanned autonomous aircraft or remote control aircraft in higher altitude or over people/property/etc.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 03:27:04 am
content: Quote from: Rigby on April 21, 2014, 03:20:03 pmI researched for the AR Drone again, and found it is really good for the control, but its payload is too low that I won't be able to mount anything a bit heavier, even a larger battery can stop it from taking off, are there any similar multirotor to AR Drone but have a heavier lifting ability?

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 03:31:27 am
content: Quote from: electr_peter on May 20, 2014, 05:48:38 pmThank you very much, after more reaserch, I think a multirotor will be a better choice...

author: kc9qvl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 04:16:44 am
content: For the larger payloads You would start with a larger frame.http://www.helipal.com/tarot-fy680-pro-hexacopter-frame-set.htmlOr even bigger. Costs go up fast the bigger you go.http://www.helipal.com/tarot-t810-hexacopter-frame-set.htmlFor the range you looking for you want to go with an airplane. Something like glider.They can handle more payload and more range for the needed power. Big downside is no hovering.The basis of mine.http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__15859__Phoenix_2000_EPO_Composite_R_C_Glider_Plug_Fly_USA_Warehouse_.html

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 05:49:41 am
content: Maybe you should ask the Iranians if they'd share their recently acquired expertise with drones?https://medium.com/war-is-boring/f3fc9b2c087ahttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7793832I know it's not going to happen, but it would be pretty funny if they open-sourced that stuff.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 06:27:15 am
content: Quote from: kc9qvl on May 25, 2014, 04:16:44 amThank you for your reply, however, I have no experience of these things before so I want a completed multirotor system for my first flight, do you have any recommendation?

author: kc9qvl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 01:32:18 pm
content: Something from the DJI Phantom line. Can be pricy, but ready to fly and has some payload capacity. Can also be setup as a full UAV.http://www.dji.com/products

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 02:32:52 pm
content: Quote from: kc9qvl on May 25, 2014, 01:32:18 pmThank you, I think DJI Phantom 2 seems to be good one:http://www.dji.com/product/phantom-2But I also found this, RC Logger RC EYE 650:http://www.rclogger.com/RC-EYE/RC-EYE-650/RC-EYE-650.htmlIt seems to have a larger payload and a cheaper price, what cause this? Does it have any down side compared to the DJI one?

author: kc9qvl
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2014, 11:32:47 pm
content: Can't say either way. Don't know about that one.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 09:51:18 am
content: what will you use it for ? unless it's a RC model, it's illegal. there is a weight limit for an RC model in each country - therefore you simply can't have a big lifting capacity because you would exceed the weight limit for a RC model. if it's not an RC model, then it's a remote controlled airplane - good luck with getting the certification, license...etc.btw.. there are multirotors out there with enough lifting capacity for a gimballed HD camera with good optics and flight time of approx 10-15 minutes with GPS assisted flight control, but be prepared for a price tag 8k+ Euros (10k+ $).

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 01:02:12 pm
content: Quote from: kc9qvl on May 25, 2014, 11:32:47 pmThank you anyway.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 01:06:41 pm
content: Quote747s would work.If you have good cell coverage, a smart phone would be a good starting point.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 01:16:13 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on May 26, 2014, 09:51:18 amI just have a simple search and found that I wouldn't reach the RC model limits--it's about 10 more kgs, and I only need a few kgs.I want a multirotor with easy but powerful network control (just like the AR Drone), but have a heavy payload, so that I can put some batterys (15mins is too short...) and a few cameras, then let it fly far than standard models, just control and watching it by network.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 01:32:02 pm
content: i'm afraid that your requirements are well beyond the capabilities of today's technology (technology affordable for individuals).

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 02:07:04 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on May 26, 2014, 01:32:02 pmThank you, but I don't think it is technology limits this, I think it just because too little people need this kind of "toys", so there's not many completed products.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 02:34:04 pm
content: Quote from: sam1275 on May 26, 2014, 01:16:13 pmTechnical issues aside, you are most likely going to run afoul of FAA in the States. The rules in most places prohibit flying these things outside of the visual range - i.e. you must maintain visual contact with the thing at all times.Better check the rules before you try something like this - you wouldn't be the first person that got sued and fined. There was recently a case of FAA fining a multirotor cameraman for flying their gear without a proper license and another one few weeks ago here in France - a student used a small quadrocopter to shoot a movie, put it on Youtube and got arrested and then charged with endangering lives (he was flying it over a town without an explicit permit) and operating the thing without license (drone operators must have pilot license akin to the private pilot/ultralight plane ticket). Another similar case was in Paris where a foreign legion soldier was arrested for flying a small drone like that.Stay safe!

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2014, 04:05:29 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on May 26, 2014, 02:34:04 pmThank you very much for your notice!