Is this maybe the easiest and best way to do double sided toner transfer. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 07:40:08 pm
content: I am currently working on some projects where I need some sensitive layout, the final product may even be 4 layer. I have never done a toner transfer right with an iron, and never screwed with buying a laminator. I also refuse to spend money on the stuff for photo techniques, I dont want to have to buy pre chemical coated clad our any of that chunk!Lets face it boards are CHEAP!!! While that may be true there not a good solution for 3 spins in one day! In a situation like this I have perfected heatless toner transfer. Doing real PCBs like this can take a few trys though, so I usually do deadbug/ugly along with small whole saw circles or eveb heatles transfer to make square pads. I dont want to show any proto's using dead/ugly though or wait for a spin! Obviously final version will be done in a board house, and not in china!For now I got this for FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!It doesnt seem to come on, its sat outside for a long time, looks like everything is still there it just needs some TLC, I.E new wiring, switches some sanding and cleaning. Im not sure if the heating elements are nichrome but that should ever go bad and is easy to salvage. The temp sensor goes to 500F, I figure this can get a lot of nice clean heat and even pressure should be pretty hard to screw up a transfer right? One thing I dont know is if noth sides heat up or just the top, and wether or not to leave the foam padding on to make sure the top contacts the borad equally in every spot?What do you guys think? Ive never seen these used on DIY PCBs but the cheapies on ebay are like 400, I know if I had an extra 400 it would go to test gear before this, hard to drom even 70 on a laminator when you dont know how well it will actually work!

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 08:23:27 pm
content: QuoteIf the bottom is foam, obviously it doesn't heat up. Still that doesn't mean you will necessarily have to flip the board. Depends on how hot it gets.It looks like the main bottleneck with this thing will be the same as with a laminator. Warm up time. So even if it presses a board quite fast and with good results, it would maybe speed up mass production but not have much effect on prototyping. I'll be curious to see your results.QuoteWhen I bought my laminator it was only $35.00. It works fine. And dextrin coated paper. Because my time is worth more than $1.50 per square foot of pcb. It has been maybe 50 boards and 2-3+ years since I screwed up and had to redo a 10/10 board. Easy peasy. 10/10 all day. 8/8 with very high yield. 6/6 doable with half oz on smaller boards, low yield and not so purdy. So maybe you're trying to build a better mousetrap.

author: rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 08:48:40 pm
content: MAYBE I AM!!!!!! LOL actually now that you said that above I pluged it in and the light didnt flip on, nothing felt warmer after 30 seconds but no breakers blew either! I just assumed it wasn't working but I did not realize it had heat up time longer than maybe 10 minutes?! Ill go plug it in and see if it warms up at all and the lights just burnt.Like I said there are faster ways to proto and nicer boards to be had if you can wait a few days/weeks or have an overnight type of budget! If this takes and hour to heat up I would probably transfer and etch pcb, doing each part in modules and printing a panel. I would leave the thing on and if I find an error I could just walk out back and re transfer that one module quickly. I think the fact that all I have is a hand drill press is the acuall time kill or mouse trap! But you can almost surface mount any part with some creativity!As for the foam on the bottom I thought the same as you and was afraid to ask becuase I didnt wanna look like an idiot, but you never know that foam could have no-mex in it or something I know NOTHING about how tee's are screen printed, but both sides heating up doesnt seem logical with or without foam!

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 10:29:16 pm
content: I lucked out on a laminator for £20 on ebay. Didn't need any modification, haven't lost a trace to it yet (8mil). The hard part about double sided boards isn't so much the heating, its the alignment :/ I generally drill 4 0.6mm holes in the corners, and use a stapler to fix the toner transfer paper to the board. This precludes preheating, but then iron or laminator, still works. I'll admit the iron was a bit of a bugger to get right though. It's a real pity I bought some stuff for it just as PCB manufacturing prices dropped and when I quickly started to hate drilling holes. (SMT is fine, but one still needs vias).

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2016, 10:47:08 pm
content: By FAR the easiest and best way to make professional 2+ layer boards is....Not doing it at home!!pcbshopper.com

author: Silveruser
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 01:30:50 am
content: I've been wondering about something like this as well. I have three photo dry mount presses and it is on my list of things to try. Very simple machines, switch, thermostat ( usually bi-metal) and heater element. If yours has been outside corrison somewhere is likely. The thermostat is usually a weak point. Dry mount presses usually go fairly cheap these days. Dry mounting has gone out of favor and presses are heavy so cheap on the local sales sites.George

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 01:59:19 am
content: QuoteNeat trick!I do doublesided by drilling two pin holes in either corner of the transfer print... usually just the two holes/vias closest to the corners. Then after transferring one side (paper still on), I drill the board through those pin holes. Then line up the other side with the holes using a backlight, tape or hold it down, and run it through the laminator, again.This keeps registration pretty good. But most of my uses for toner transfer are very small or very simple boards. A lot of the time, the back side only has a few traces, which I can make 30 mils across or even draw on there with a sharpie after drilling all the holes, while keeping the vias on top very small. Adapters and such. Things which would be impractical to wait for a professional manufacturer. And expensive for what they are.

author: rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 08:32:14 pm
content: Well damn if this didnt work out well i was hoping to turn a decent profit after fixing it. When I get a chance i will tear it apart and clean it up. Can anyone recomend a thermostat, are these universal or machine specific?Obviously doing home boards is a crap options but in some cases it is the best. I need ground planes and in reality a 4 layer pcb. I dont want to show the client an ugly style proto!! I also figure keeping it modular with connectors for each stage of the circuit will keep things easy for home brew pcb and easy to trouble shoot.

author: AndrewDojo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2016, 09:24:19 pm
content: I bought a very similar device 6 weeks ago and it has been brilliant (compared to laiminators).The thermal capacity of the heat press is such that you should not need to flip the PCB. Just adjust timing to allow heat to soak through.I prefer to use press-n-peel film for toner transfer (PnP-Blue) as it does not suffer the porosity of other toner transfer methods. (Jaycar in Australia but expensive,http://www.techniks.com/in USA)Techniks sell heat presses new for this purpose.I am yet to try a double side board in my press. From my single-side boards, there is the benefit of faster turn around on the PCB (20-30 seconds), and no sign of slippage/warpage of the film that I saw with using a laminator for years.Only other recommendation is to use a dust blower of some kind to eliminate all dust between the film and the PCB. A photography bulb blower may be sufficient, but a "can of air" or a compressor works well too.Results can vary considerably depending on the laser printer. After trying half a dozen different models over 10 years, I found that a cheap little Xerox laser works best. Brother is to be avoided completely.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 05:39:16 am
content: Some of their models use a weird toner. Super high melt temp. Does not work for toner transfer, at least not with the usual methods. This represents a minority of their lineup, but the one I have is probably one of the cheaper (and more popular) Brother printers. It has that weird toner. I use my HP for transfers. (Replacement toner also worked, but something went wrong with that first Brother... I dunno if it was the magazine paper I was playing with or the replacement toner, but it didn't last long after switching out the toner!)QuoteIt looks the biz, but my results are cleaner and better with Pulsar. No porosity issues, at all. I suppose it also depends on your printer. I used probably 70-80 sheet of PnP before trying Pulsar. I still have ~30-40 sheets of PnP I can't even be bothered to use it up! I was initially biased and I wanted PnP to be better. PnP is cheaper for me, because of their bulk sizes. But after awhile it was clear that with my setup, Pulsar is at least as good or better in every way, even down to handling. Main difference is it takes less heat and has a much wider heat window to transfer successfully. And as long as the toner is on the board, it stays on during the etching... with my setup, anyways.Here's one I did the other week. A lot of solid ground plane, and not a problem at all. I just looked at it under the mag lamp.http://s18.photobucket.com/user/klee27x/media/DSC_3060_zpsk6yjruvr.jpg.htmlBTW, that reminds me. Pulsar also sells this green stuff that is supposed to go on over the toner to prevent porosity. I bought a bunch, but I don't use it. I must have a good printer.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 07:10:51 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on March 23, 2016, 06:31:22 amSeconded. I have only ever used my el cheapo Brother printer for toner transfer, and once I worked out the process it was fine.It did take a while to get it to work though.At the time the only cheap lasers in the shop (pbtech) were Brother, and it came with a free toner cartridge. I had read about the issues but took a punt.Like most myths there is probably a grain of truth in there somewhere. I recall finding two different MSDS's for Brother toner and just assumed one was a bit more 'fussy' than the other and so people gave up.

author: rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 07:41:17 pm
content: Well I have two brother laser printers both wifi one b&w and one color. The b&w works very well with a heatless transfer method, as far as using heat I have never been successful, my issue has always been not smearing the toner while applying the right pressure. The toner has always stuck to the clad either way though.Glad to hear this machine works well for PCB's. What process and temperatures do you usually use?

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 07:57:41 pm
content: Sorry, I didn't write down the temperature unfortunately, and it has been a while since I did one and I can't remember. I just used an old iron and applied pressure by hand. If it turned to custard I'd clean the board and try again.One thing I remember that worked well was using cheap crappy paper from the advertising brochures that constantly arrive in the mailbox. It didn't matter that it had already been printed on. I would cut out a board sized piece and tape it onto an ordinary sheet of paper. Printed a copy of the board on the standard sheet first to show where to tape it on.I do remember it smearing and turning into a mess as well, my reaction to that would have been less heat and pressure. Cleaning the board really well did help too.The heatless process is interesting, I just found one on google using an acetone and alcohol mix, is that what you used?

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 23, 2016, 09:01:33 pm
content: QuoteAhh, hmm. Someone ELSE posted that for something like 3 specific models of Brother printer/cartridges, there IS a difference in the MSDS.QuoteI have one such Brother printer. When I bought it, I recall some reviewers complaining it dims their lights. It also seems to have a bit longer warmup time but faster thru-put than my HP, but that's apples to oranges and who knows?QuoteAs someone who uses toner transfer regularly, and as someone who owns and has scientifically tried (a specific model) of Brother printer, same printer with replacement toner, an HP printer, and $100.00 worth of photo papers (all worthless, lol) and a host of other papers using a laminator and heat gun, I will say that scientifically, some Brother printers DO NOT WORK WELL for toner transfer. I can not produce a PCB with this Brother printer with the genuine toner. Period. It's not even a matter of degrees.Dump out the genuine cartridge and fill it with generic refill toner, and presto. It works..... until the drum gets clogged and no longer prints, properly, and then you buy a new printer.I can't find the model number of my Brother printer, but the sticker on the front says it takes TN-330 or TN-360 cartridges, FWIW. It's my second one. Don't use generic toner in these cartridges.*Scratch that. It's my third one. Also, don't put plastic mailers in your laser printer.As you can infer, I love my Brother printer. For the cost, speed, paper tray capacity, and ease of setup. I have nothing against Brother. But that doesn't make my particular Brother printer work for toner transfer. I use a cheap HP for that.

author: AndrewDojo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 12:47:01 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on March 23, 2016, 03:14:05 amI have tried several brother lasers over 10+ years, including one purchased late last year. I just do not get good results from them. This is also supported by Techniks website that says, in prominent position:QuoteI am satisfied that this is not an urban myth.However, I am willing to concede that there may be some model Brother printers that work perfectly well for toner transfer. Not my role in life to test every printer model for this.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 04:19:13 am
content: This is my printer:http://welcome.brother.com/sg-en/products-services/printers/hl-2250dn.tab3.htmlMSDS for one of the toners listed on that site as compatible is here (TN-2260):https://www.imagestar.com/msds/82567.pdf(Note doc states many other cartridges use this toner, including TN-2225 which is the one actually in my printer).MSDS for the TN-330/TN-360 mentioned by KL27x is here:http://www.brothertoners.com/TN-330.pdfThey aren't the same formula.So perhaps it is just down to the different toner. Clearly it is possible to make a toner transfer with some Brother laser printers (i.e. wilfred and mine), and is not possible with others (i.e. KL27x and others)

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 05:57:30 am
content: To see the MSDS wilfred posted, go to this page first and answer No:http://sds.brother.co.jp/sdsapp/view?lang=en&prod=pri&rfno=1000019167As you say it looks similar, we need a chemist over here

author: MrSlack
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 24, 2016, 07:31:17 am
content: I'm using plain paper with 60mm clear packing tape stuck to it run through a cheap Brother laser and then transferred with the wife's hair straighteners. She hasn't noticed yet

author: ThomasDK
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2016, 07:39:43 pm
content: QuoteI have never had any problems doing toner transfer with my two brother printers (HL-2030 and 2070n).On the other hand i have had 0% success with my HP color laser (CP-1514n).So, the highly scientific conclusion:Quote

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 25, 2016, 08:03:51 pm
content: Quote from: rwgast_lowlevellogicdesin on March 22, 2016, 08:32:14 pmGeneric chip fryer thermostat in there, also used a whole lot in industrial controls as a switch. Accuracy is around 10C and hysteresis is around 5C, but they work for a long time. Note the replacement might come with a mounting kit, use the screws from it as they often now are stainless steel so will rust less.Be prepared to replace a few rusted screws in the housing getting it off, and the heater is either going to be a lot of cartridge units in parallel, or a flat mica mat with nichrome wire windings on it. Most likely you have a broken mains cable, broken at the join into the flat plate, as there the silicone cable flexes the most.