Don't like EVs - Living with Hyundai Kona Electric EV  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2020, 02:36:44 am
content: Is there a rational case for spending the big bucks on a Hyundai Kona Electric? I lived with one for three months to find out - and I'm the country's least-evangelical EV reviewer. This guy will tell you what's wrong with EVs after having one to review for 3 months. He makes some very good point.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2020, 08:54:30 am
content: Good summary. John has a wise point regarding energy security. Petroleum has one source, whereas electric vehicles can charge from solar, wind, coal, gas, nuclear and the tides. Their use of energy overnight, while not 'free' as John seems to believe, is still generally good for the grid as it reduces the difference in demand between the day and night allowing for more consistent base loads (such as nuclear) to be used.Think he missed a trick on servicing, though he touched briefly on it when discussing the brakes that last ages. For the Tesla Model 3, the service schedule is a body inspection every 40000 miles or 4 years, then a differential/gearbox oil change every 120000 miles/12 years (first change due at time of first body inspection.) The car barely needs any work doing to keep it going.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2020, 09:05:49 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 02, 2020, 08:54:30 amI tend to like his videos because he has a engineering background and applies that knowledge to his reviews. As I am a Yank, he can get a bit crude, but then as he says, he's from down there... I'm sure it's a cultural thing. His video knocking the stupidity of the Tesla semi EV is very good. One has to wonder how Elon who has a degree in physics is that "dumb" for thinking an EV-semi would make any sense at all.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 11:48:08 am
content: and why should an EV semi make no sense ?A few very small companies disagree with you, like, for example, Daimler:https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/daimler-first-electric-freightliner-semi-trucks/

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 03:37:22 pm
content: Daimler‘S range is only 250 miles. Tesla’s in 600. Tesla was taking orders for the truck for 2019 delivery. The are having issues. Daimler‘s not in truck is not production either. They just beat Tesla with the delivery or one or a few.But here’s the real reason Tesla’s 600 mile range is silly, it’s the physics and the math. The diesel fuel for a semi to travel 600 miles is contained in two fuel tanks on the side of the cab. After the truck has been drive 500 miles the weight of the truck is less due to less fuel. Very good cargo to fuel weight ratio. Even after 500 miles. With an EV truck after 500 miles your are still hauling around the nearly the same weight in batteries. The cargo to energy every mile driven gets worse.Now let’s compare energy volumes for diesel and batteries to haul a semi load of cargo 600 miles. For diesel it’s a couple of tanks attacked to the cab. For and EV you would need a semi-trailer full of batteries to travel 600 miles but then you don’t have any room for cargo. So are you going to haul around a trailer of batteries to haul a trailer of goods? Not really making much sense.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 04:15:27 pm
content: Quote from: f4eru on September 03, 2020, 11:48:08 amCharging time seems to me to be a problem. It will require a lot of power and expensive inverters.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 04:29:14 pm
content: Quote from: ahbushnell on September 03, 2020, 04:15:27 pmAnd you just can't beat the energy density of diesel, (liquid carbon-hydrogen chains). Or nuclear fuel. Ford need to bring back the Ford Nucleon.There was a reason consumers selected liquid petrol power for transportation over that of horses, steam, and electricity over 100 years ago.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 05:52:52 pm
content: You can't beat the economics of EVs. Logistics is extremely dependent on economics.The battery density is steadily improving.The economic sweet spot of the drive cycle/battery size/driver work time for long haul will be found along the way. The charge infrastructure will grow without much problems, as it does with cars.Today, short local trucks are converted to EVs (starting with packet delivery, garbage collection)In 3 years, nearly all local trucks will move to electric.In 5 Years, long haul will also.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 06:00:38 pm
content: Quote from: f4eru on September 03, 2020, 05:52:52 pmPutting in charging for multi-megawatt stations is not cheap. And putting in transmission lines is not cheap out in the county in the western US. In the city is a different story.

author: f4eru
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 06:16:14 pm
content: so what ?adding everything up, in the end, it's still 2-5 times cheaper per km than diesel.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 06:56:55 pm
content: Quote from: f4eru on September 03, 2020, 06:16:14 pmI have yet to meet a business owner who is not interested in saving money. Help me understand if EVs are 2 to 5 times less business owners aren't buying them and saving money? Makes no sense.It might be cheaper... But there's more to it.An it all depends what you add and how you add it. Just ask Bernie Madoff, John DeLorean or the thousands of others sent to prison for creative math calculations.Why over 100 years ago when EVs were more popular than steam or petroleum powered vehicles they fell out of favor and people purchased ICE vehicles?

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 07:01:55 pm
content: Quote from: f4eru on September 03, 2020, 05:52:52 pmHow are you going to do that without violating the law of physics? EVs trucks/delivery vehicles were popular 100 years ago but lost out to fossil fuel powered vehicles.It was four years ago Tesla's long haul electric semi was going to be sold in 2019. That was last year. The number of years you suggest need to be updated to reflect reality.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 07:23:16 pm
content: Quote from: ahbushnell on September 03, 2020, 06:00:38 pmA brand new filling station costs some $10 million USD to install. I would be shocked (pun not intended) if the install of a DCFC station cost as much, even if it had say a 10MW rating.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 09:02:40 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 03, 2020, 07:23:16 pmWhere did you come up with $10 million USD to install a filling station? It's more along the lines of $250,000 - $500,000. But why would one build new, where there are existing ones to buy?

author: Alti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2020, 10:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: f4eru on September 03, 2020, 06:16:14 pmI think you miss the fact that this adding "everything up" and "cheaper" compares products on a subsidized market.At least in EU and I think it is similar elsewhere, fuels get special tax treatment. Also electric cars have preferences, dedicated parking places where IC cars cannot park, lower insurance. Then IC cars are subjected to CO2 emission regulations, electric cars are not even though electricity still comes from fossile fuels, mostly.It is cheaper only if there are 1% of electric cars but once everyone drives those, many problems arise. Including how to get the money that were flowing from fuel taxes, where to park EVs and how to substitute the energy flow, that today comes from fossile fuels, with electricity.Concluding: this "X is cheaper than Y" is not shaped by free market and physics but by regulations, when you subsidize X or put a tax on Y.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 12:08:38 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on September 02, 2020, 02:36:44 amTLDR; you can just jump to his summary at 19:00Basically, he likes it, met all his needs, won't miss filling up at the petrol station, and you should buy one if you have the extra cash and want to make a statement to the politicians and have skin in the energy game.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 12:15:13 am
content: FYI, I'm THIS close to getting a new EV as a business vehicle, my accountant gave the thumbs up.It's just a choice of LEAF or Hyundai IONIQ. The Kona is bigger bucks, although Mrs EEVblog has her eye on that.

author: ahbushnell
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 12:40:04 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 04, 2020, 12:15:13 amDave are you planning to take long trips in your new EV or do you have a second ICE car for that? I have a PHEV so I get both in one.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 12:42:14 am
content: I have a 2015 LEAF, bought new, and been generally happy with it.It did need a ($0, fully covered under warranty including a loaner car) warranty repair on the battery when a cell went "half bad". Car was still drivable but with poor range. They disassembled the pack, replaced the 2-cell module, and the car is back to normal now.If it was our only car: no way.If I had to drive 50 miles on a typical day: no way. (It can easily do 70-75 miles, even at 5.5 years old, but if I needed 50 miles as a baseline, that doesn't give me enough slack. My typical commute [pre-COVID] was 15 miles, which was perfect.)If it didn't come with $10K in government money in the trunk: no way for me. (I'd have bought something else used, rather than buyinganynew car.)Since I do all the (non-warranty, non-tires) work on all our cars, the LEAF has been a dream. I've had to add washer fluid 3-4 times and changed the wiper blades once. It's been a real maintenance nightmare in that regard.No data/info on the Kona, so I can't easily compare/contrast, but I've been happy with the LEAF. If I were the type to spend more money on cars, I'm sure I'd like a Tesla Model 3 or S better, but even used I can't see paying that amount of money for a car I drive 5K miles a year.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 12:52:14 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on September 04, 2020, 12:42:14 amYes, the old school LEAF's would not even meet my basic need of getting up the mountains here, that's why I given up on the 2nd hand LEAF thing I've been considering, even took one for a test drive.Better to spend the coin and get a new model with the range and 7 years battery life warranty (Hyundia, not sure about LEAF warranty).You can save a bit on an almost new ex-demonstator LEAF or IONIQ, but with the Hyundai they changed the battery capacity and other good stuff from the 2019 to 2020 model, so better to just pony up a bit more and get the new model with bigger pack.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 12:54:13 am
content: Quote from: ahbushnell on September 04, 2020, 12:40:04 amWe do occasional long trips.The Kona fully electric has the range to do those long trips, they only problem I think is boot space (or lack of).We looked at the PHEV, but didn't really seem worth when you can go the full EV hog with the Kona.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 01:09:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 04, 2020, 12:15:13 amWe have a Volt. It's our second one. Would defiantly buy another one, but they stopped making them. I would watch these videos to help you decide. While I cringe at some of his Aussie sayings, he's an engineer and I think giving an "honest" unbiased opinion. These videos are from last year. And do you get a $10,000 in tax credits and rebates for buying EV?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RDQj276EhI&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=AutoExpertJohnCadoganhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUyECsOuPuk&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=AutoExpertJohnCadogan

author: vk6zgo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 01:17:35 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 03, 2020, 07:23:16 pmA filling station, "in the middle of nowhere" in Oz needs just enough electrical power to operate the pumps, lighting, airconditioning, cooking facilities, etc."Off the grid", as is very common in remote areas, this power may be provided by a diesel generator, or as most often these days, by a relatively modest solar set up.As there will be a mix of EV & diesel trucks for years, a "stand alone" EV station would be uneconomic in such places.A "filling/charging station" catering for long distance trucks of both types would need power to provide all the things listed above, plus supply all the energy to recharge EV batteries.It would be silly to provide that using a diesel generator, so the only viable option would be a much larger solar installation, or maybe hydrogen "down the track", if its problems are ever ironed out.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 01:26:26 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on September 04, 2020, 01:09:36 amThere is not tax credits or government subsidy on EV'sAlthough there is a small reduction in luxury car import tax and registration, but that doesn't really amount to anything.So you pay a massive premium for an EV here, you can't buy a new fully EV for under AUD$50k. That's a pretty pricey car, with the same size ICE car costing a good $25k less.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 01:42:46 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 04, 2020, 01:26:26 amYou need to come to America. We will give you $7,500 in tax credits. Plus another $2,500 cash rebate from the state of California. Then the power company will give you another $2,500 as a way of saying thank you for buying an electric vehicle. But wait, there's more..... Because you purchased in EV your electric rates for the next 5 years are lowered by 40%. AND if that's not enough, you don't have to pay road taxes because you are not buying gas. AND wait, there's even more.... The state just loves it that you purchased an EV so they allow you to drive in the HOV lanes with only one person in the car for free AND when it comes to crossing out state's bridges you get a discount on the toll. Not enough you say? Well you are right. Many cities, stores and businesses give you FREE charging.The only drawback if to get all of this you would have to live in America/California.What am I thinking.... There's even more... If you install solar on your home your fellow tax payers will pay 30% of the cost.There are times when "It's good to be the king" and you get to follow the golden rule.... Those who have the gold, make the rules.

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 01:55:24 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 04, 2020, 01:26:26 amDo you guys pay road user charges for ev's? Over here that is the only ev tax break I am aware of.For a light diesel vehicle doing around 10l/100km we need to pay about 50% of the fuel cost in tax.

author: aargee
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 02:02:57 am
content: And you may also want to watch this regarding his view on EV siupport from some manufactureres (specifically Nissan)...

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 04:04:19 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on September 04, 2020, 01:55:24 amNo in the US. Road taxes in California end of this year will be just over $0.50 per gallon. That's another $500 we've not had to pay (saved) having an EV. Never thought about that.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 06:01:19 am
content: Quote from: hendorog on September 04, 2020, 01:55:24 amOurs is part of the registration, which as I mentioned is subsidised for EV'shttps://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/registration/fees/index.htmlBut it's not much of a saving, not even worth worrying about.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 06:02:52 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on September 04, 2020, 01:42:46 amThat's the catch, no thanks. Rats fleeing a sinking ship comes to mind...

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 07:04:23 am
content: I liked the point DougSpindler made, hadn't realized the long haul trucks get more efficient, as tanks empty. But also, a bigger point: This debate needs more truck operators chime in. Their reasoning affects pocket money, so that's a powerful sanity check.AND, as a Calif 'RAT', there are, ahem, 'other' taxes around just living / surviving. Heck, I could claim a charging ev station costs almost $299 million !!!(all due respect, I like to read and argue things)Try but some medical- related items, in Calif. You pay the retirement for half the friggen 'regulators' swarming around.Uh, where are the TRUCK operators in this discussion? I do like the personal EV vehicles, and understand that electric acceleration is awesome.Why not let an industry grow, building up some short delivery trucks.In balance, you don't want to 'flee' to Calif. for the tax breaks, money is money.But I learned a great point, from Doug's start, that weight goes down, with distance. Thanks

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 07:21:55 am
content: Quote from: RJHayward on September 04, 2020, 07:04:23 amThe same reason electric planes willneverbe viable except for a very niche window of range/weight.Electric trucks need to trade off cargo capacity for the battery weight. I'm not yet convinced they are viable on a large scale.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2020, 09:05:22 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 04, 2020, 12:54:13 amDo you have Kia e-Niro in Aus? It's the bigger brother of the Kona, same battery and powertrain, and of course a bit more expensive.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 01:33:28 am
content: Ok, sorry, I overlooked my orig intent re: Big EV long haul trucks:f4eru, please read, (my respectful comments). I went back thru thread to look for mention of any FORCE mechanism, to 'force' a change-over, none found.But...assuming a 'by Force' arg was made, I did see a time est of 3 years local delivery trucks, and 5 years for long-haul change over. Now, of course there are incentives possible, and some positive incentives now, but much of this is very nebulus, or downright missing.So, (a California smart-ass) I see hints of using force of law / taxes, perhaps quickly morphing to Demands, to abandon ALL PETRO, after all: tax favorable / impractical demands get priority (here) it seems. Yes I know, I'm arguing nebulous also.But I can easily see those dynamics, after 64 years of various San Francisco area (politics).Pray for me, but seriously, you have to ask:Mr. / Ms. politician, can you please define what is a'BTU' for us ? (Then sit back and smirk, lol).It looks like a future, one possible play.Let's force the change... the big operators can figure out the economics...they will have to.3X, 5X, ... That's stuff I like to call 'funny money' a term for implying gibberish.Please, tell us, what is the status, of the big solar farms and growth statistics.Sorry to be a pain in the 'battery pack'. RJ in Hayward,Ca

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 03:37:18 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on September 04, 2020, 01:42:46 amIt's a quick facts handbook for why EV's help accelerate downward trends in failing economies, well done!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 09:26:56 am
content: Quote from: tom66 on September 04, 2020, 09:05:22 amNot that I'm aware of.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 01:16:13 pm
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on September 03, 2020, 03:37:22 pmFor say, a Volvo FH16, the maximum fuel capacity is 1480l, or about 1200kg. Meanwhile, you can put 36,000kg behind it. It's not that relevant.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 01:51:14 pm
content: Quote from: RJHayward on September 04, 2020, 07:04:23 amHmm, thinking about it, since a semi doesn't accelerate/decelerate a lot on the motorways, does the weight perhaps not matter as much as one would think?Also, what % of the weight of a fully loaded diesel semi is in its full tanks? Can't be that much?I suspect that if we did the math on this effect, there may not be much in it.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 02:08:13 pm
content: Note that for transportation of goods in large trucks / semis, the expected use case iseverything.#1) If it's for short hauls, delivery within the city, etc., this is one of thefirstthings that should be electrified. The reasons being, not that much range needed (500km per charge is plenty), a lot of kinetic energy to be recovered in the city, poor ICE efficiency in city driving with a large diesel, noise and emissions.#2) If it's for long hauls, transporting goods around the continent - this is one of thelastthings that should be electrified. The reasons being, a lot of range and super fast charging would be needed (1000km might not be enough), no kinetic energy to be recovered, surprisingly good ICE efficiency when running the large diesel in near-optimum conditions at constant highway speeds; and finally, the mostly non-issue of noise and emissions in rural areas.The challenge is the cases where neither is strictly due, but the same vehicle does both use cases. In that case, hybrid can combine the good (and also the bad) sides of the both worlds, I guess.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 02:10:42 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on September 06, 2020, 01:51:14 pmAs above, a Volvo FH16 4x2 can have up to 1480l (~1200kg) of diesel, the fifth wheel is rated for up to 36t of trailer, and the total laden weight (in the EU) is limited to 44t.E: So the 4x2 being smaller is limited to 40t. The 6x2 tag axle appears to be able to take up to about 1600l of fuel.

author: RJSV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 07:01:52 pm
content: To repeat, for emphasis, re: LONG HAUL economics:"...the economic sweet spot will be found, given time..."I'm still insisting implications of a preface are lingering:"" implied: Given a forced long haul EV switch-over, 5 years and they gonna have to find a sweet spot; they will make it work BECAUSE THEY will not have any choice...""(double quotes indicate text added to orig)Anyhow, concede mostly on the fuel weight vs miles, maybe only 3 %. You could argue in reverse when considering running heavy power (lines / poles):Every mile of power lines, to an isolated charging station does NOT have diminishing capacity but rather has to bring the whole power level, out in the sticks or desert. Also, Northern states like Alaska probably have special issues / complications.By the time I stop talking, if it's 3 years, the neighborhood garbage pick up is going to beEV trucks ? In which countries?I'm going to check w local sanitation division, in their calenders for a change-over, if any.Respectfully, and thanks, RJHayward

author: hendorog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 08:12:47 pm
content: I'm not sure the discussion around weight matters very much given regen braking.F=ma largely cancels out - depending of course on the round trip efficiency they end up at with the EV Semi's.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 08:17:43 pm
content: I can imagine logistics companies liking EV trucks for one big reason in Europe and that would be the possibility of maintaining a constant high speed on long inclines, which diesel engines cannot manage too well. Then you recoup some 50% of that energy back which is normally dumped as heat in the engine or air brakes.EV trucks are unlikely to work for very long distance routes for now, but I contend that those are relatively uncommon. Taking the UK and Europe as examples, almost certainly 95% of freight traffic could be electrified with relative ease: you would need to install fast chargers at depots and destinations (e.g. supermarkets, shopping centres, factories), but loading times are some 30 min - 1 hour in any case and mandatory breaks exist too, so charging times could fit quite naturally into these windows.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 10:30:23 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on September 06, 2020, 02:10:42 pmOk, so a rough estimate 1.2/44 = 2.7% - so the average fuel weight is what, 1.35% of the total? Assuming a full load. Not much, but every little helps...Clearly, driving with less than a full load makes this number worse... that is something that should be avoided.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 06, 2020, 11:27:39 pm
content: Gee, I wonder why Canberra:https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6910949/greens-rich-incentive-to-boost-electric-car-sales/For those outside Oz, Canberra is where our politicians live.

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 04:22:03 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 06, 2020, 11:27:39 pmI thought your politicians were pro coal and anti EV. Or is it they are just anti-Tesla?The Sandy Murano videos on Tesla’s batteries is sure interesting. They have some secret sauce the other battery manufactures haven’t figured out yet.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 04:26:40 am
content: Quote from: DougSpindler on September 07, 2020, 04:22:03 amIt's the Green party behind this. They hold nine seats in our senate.I wouldn't for a minute suggest that Green party members want a cheaper Tesla...

author: DougSpindler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2020, 04:32:35 am
content: Nice to know your politicians are as greedy and self-centered as they are everywhere else.