World's first professional Youtuber quits Youtube - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2019, 02:57:36 am
content: World's first professional Youtuber quits Youtube after losing 90+% of his audience due to The Algorithm

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2019, 05:00:37 am
content: Can someone give me the gist of this. Please. I found it too depressing and rambling to watch. I skipped to hear "I feel that I'm not wanted on YT" or words to that effect.He also said he lost 96% of his audience and I gather it was due to the algorithm change. What do these 96% watch instead? I assume YT is attempting to get these 96% to watch something else other wise what is the point of the algorithm change.

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2019, 05:08:47 am
content: I think he's the original "cat video" guy... I'm not sure if its really Youtube that stopped caring about him, or of there's just too many "Cat Video" producers on Youtube now. But for sure Youtube seems to have made things more difficult for Youtubers as they move more toward becoming a paid-content provider.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2019, 06:06:58 am
content: I doubt youboob cares much about individual cat video channels. This guy probably is fed up with getting crumbs when he once had the whole pie.Youtube is focused on becoming a monopoly destination. In some ways what is happening is similar to Amazon tactics of detecting which items their partner sellers offer exceed some profit and volume threshold and then offering those items themselves, cheaper and with better search visibility. Effectively Amazon competes with their own partners once they can get away with it. Youtube can continue to diminish advertising payouts and tell individual channels to pound sand now they have near monopoly.Look at what they did to VeVo. I will quote from an article in VOX:Like this note a former YouTube exec sent me today. Consider it an anonymous victory dance:The entire hope for Vevo from YouTube’s perspective, when it launched, was that it would be successful enough to keep the labelsfrom taking down their music and launching a competitor, but not so successful that it ultimately was a better destination than YouTube.Huge huge success for YouTubeThis was an existential threat that was prevented via smart business development.YouTube needed Vevo to exist for just long enough to become so popular that the labels had no leverage anymore.article:https://www.vox.com/2018/5/24/17390756/vevo-youtube-video-apps-existential-threat

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 17, 2019, 06:17:49 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 17, 2019, 05:00:37 amHe is SMPfilms and had 5 channels.All the channel dropped off the cliff after a recent algorithm change.SMPfilms channel died in 2011 due to an algorithm change also, he changed content types many times over the years.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2019, 06:34:56 am
content: Quote from: windsmurf on August 17, 2019, 05:08:47 amSo bottom of the barrel commodity entertainment that anyone and his, ahem, dog can produce. Kinda rough to live off of that. Who even watches those things anymoreAnd yeah, The System doesn't give a damn. It's all scalable and redundantA good illustration of the absurdity this whole "startup" culture too. If a carpooling app can turn into illegal taxi service and a stupid PHP website for rating your local coeds becomes a global spy network, I guess it's only fitting that YT will turn into cable TV after starting out as the polar opposite of it. Always the same, bright young entrepreneurs invent The Next Big Thing and their brilliance secures them backing of Big Money. The young geniuses are lauded as heroes who outsmarted the system. Then Big Money quietly turns it into an evil empire and no one expects or even notices it before it's too late

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2019, 01:51:57 pm
content: Will his resume be something like:"Specialized in multi-channel, cloud-based presentations of feline-centric documentation, instructional, and educational multimedia content."

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2019, 05:46:32 pm
content: Here's another guy in the same situation ranting away about the logarithm:https://www.bitchute.com/video/BT61wgtHl3WM/

author: bsfeechannel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2019, 08:23:49 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 17, 2019, 05:46:32 pmMany complain about the logarithm until they understand its convenience for representing quantities that would otherwise be cumbersome to do on a linear scale.

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2019, 08:26:23 pm
content: Quote from: bsfeechannel on August 17, 2019, 08:23:49 pmWell, the logarithm is known to hinder exponential growth.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2019, 08:31:56 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 17, 2019, 02:57:36 amWhat did he expect with a couple of dozen cat videos? There are lots of people posting cat videos so these kind of a dime a dozen. Not saying cat videos aren't funny but there isn't much substance in them.I suspect EEVblog is much less affected. Or am I wrong? I didn't check.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2019, 09:09:39 pm
content: Dave has been mentioning reduced views and engagement lately. I don't know if he specifically thinks it's the youtube algorithm or not though.EDIT: On second thought, he is the one that posted this so I suspect that is what he thinks.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2019, 09:17:54 pm
content: One thing I noticed, and don't know if this is always been this way or not, but if you don't watch every single video from a subscription, it will stop showing the videos on your page after a while. So if you have youtubers you don't watch all the time (or they don't release videos every couple days) then you can easily miss their videos since they won't show up unless you check their channel.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2019, 09:33:06 pm
content: Quote from: maginnovision on August 17, 2019, 09:09:39 pmIt would be interesting to make a comparison between the relative reduction of views of the 'mean kitty' and 'eevblog' channels. That should give some indication on how Youtube rates a video.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2019, 10:54:13 pm
content: Quote from: maginnovision on August 17, 2019, 09:09:39 pmIt seems to be what a lot of Youtubers think. Just based on my own viewing habits though I think the algorithm changes are YT catching up with viewers like me who have noticed their own viewing habits change. When the algorithm changes and there is a drop in views it might be hastening what is already in train. At least from the POV of any particular YT channel.I may think I am not typical and as far as my choice of channels I might be niche in my taste, but I suspect putting aside video subject matter, my habits are representative of the masses.Just in the case of EEVBlog specifically I stopped watching every video years ago. I unsubscribed 4 years ago. I've unsubscribed from dozens of channels. And subscribed to as many new ones.I can't help but believe YT with the data analytics skills of Google behind them and the massive data available to them are making very rational decisions informed by highly detailed data they have about viewing habits. That is less faith than it is inevitable.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 07:09:56 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 17, 2019, 09:33:06 pmThey are in the business of selling advertising and want to steer away from anything controversial. If a video gets complaints they will demonetize it. If a specific youtuber's videos get complaints they will all be demonetized and not promoted. It is as simple as that.If PETA or feminists or some other group start a crusade against a channel it is doomed. It does not matter if they are right or wrong. Youtube just stays away from anything controversial because it is not advertiser-friendly.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 10:17:36 am
content: YouTube themselves promoted some political videos on their platform in the past which generated plentiful controversy but haven't been taken down, instead the comment sections and vote counts were hidden.But you tried

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 11:03:45 am
content: An almost literal version of "Who moved my mouse"? Oops, "cheese"."Famous cat youtuber makes a career change after 14 years."In any new economy that is what happens. Lots of folks are left to explore a new market and only some very large ones stay in the longer run. In today's fleeting world of startups and kickstarters, 14 years is an eternity.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 11:20:31 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 17, 2019, 08:31:56 pmCorrect, my channel hasn't really been affected much by any recent algorithm changes. There has been a general flattening and even drops here and there in recent years, but nothing to really worry about. No way to correlate that to "the algorithm".

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 11:28:55 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 17, 2019, 10:54:13 pmThis is inevitable foreverychannel. if a channel cannot find a continual new audience then it is guaranteed to die through natural subscriber attrition.This is why Youtube not recommending certain channels (often due to political agenda) is killing them.Independent news channels for example are very deliberately pushed down into the noise by the algorithm which now favors "authoritative" news source, i.e. those news sources that Youtube approve of.It used to be a fair playing field, the algorithm was based on views in first few hours, engagement, sharing etc, so the independent person in their basement had a fair chance to succeed. In fact the independent players got vastly more engagement than the big news networks which get hardly any, so they were getting beat big time by someone in their basement.Of course "they" weren't going to let that go on forever, so the "problem" has now been fixed.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 11:33:29 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2019, 11:20:31 amI assume that channels serving niches, like EEVblog, will be less susceptible to the effects of algorithm changes. However, if you try to serve a similar audience to people with deep pockets, like CNN and MSNBC, you might recently have seen some major changes to you view counts, and not in the good direction.

author: chickenHeadKnob
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 11:36:48 am
content: Viva Frei, a Canadian lawyer, youtube vlogger and extreme fast talker has just come out with this:

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 11:43:17 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2019, 11:28:55 amOTOH these small 'independent' persons are often sock puppets spreading FUD or have very weird views of the world. Take the anti-vaxxers for example; these are causing real problems which get people killed. In principle it is a good thing to get rid of unverifyable sources of 'information'. But there is no 100% perfect solution as long as people can't filter information by themselves.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 11:52:18 am
content: Yes, plenty of channels spreading dangerous "free energy" and "how to steal from the electric power company". Most of the time they don't work and they are dangerous but they get views.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 12:40:33 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 18, 2019, 11:43:17 amAs opposed to the main stream media which is universally like that?

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 01:04:25 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on August 17, 2019, 09:17:54 pmMaybe it's time to make an app that "watches" all your subscriptions? Or even check for new videos and automatically download them?

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 01:13:43 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 18, 2019, 01:04:25 pmMake it a shell script so that it doesn't become too popular among illiterates and get killed like hooktube.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 01:17:20 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 18, 2019, 12:40:33 pmWhich mainstream media? There are many mainstream news sources on the internet. In this day & age you aren't limited to your local newspaper or TV station.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 01:30:27 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 18, 2019, 01:17:20 pmThere are certainly many sources of news these days, but not a single one that the viewer has any reason to trust.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 02:27:15 pm
content: You can't blame YouTube's algorithm for an oversupply of cat videos, but there are serious problems with the algorithm:'An ecosystem of hate': How YouTube radicalized Brazilhttps://nationalpost.com/news/world/youtube-gave-rise-to-a-radical-right-wing-movement-in-brazil

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 02:49:01 pm
content: The new "algorithm", as I got it, consists (among other unknown things) in favoring more "diversity" in the suggested videos, to "force" users discovering new things (which, ultimately, is supposed to help less known youtubers to get more views, and prevent the very successful youtubers to attract most of the audience). Of course this improved "diversity" is not just to make things better for the world, it's relatively easy to understand how it can make things better for Youtube's business as well.The side effects obviously are that successful youtubers will see their audience decrease, the less successful ones, their audience slightly increase (obviously not in the same proportion, it's a basic numbers problem), and the users will see suggestions that seem to have nothing to do with what they want to watch.Not defending Youtube in the least here, but I think no matter what the algorithm is, a fraction of youtubers and users are bound not to like it. It's a very tricky balance.

author: @rt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 03:44:22 pm
content: I’m a cat lover, and found a semi-random video I picked rather dull. Some light comedy there, but a cat in a video should the star, and doing cat things, or going nuts.Never heard of him, but I do know of DoDo, which plays on your emotions and pulls your heart strings like a day time soap opera.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 05:18:23 pm
content: I knew it had to be some plot against me. That is why my videos never get more than 20 views.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 05:25:11 pm
content: Quote from: madires on August 18, 2019, 02:27:15 pmLol, it's not even 4chan anymore, you can get radicalized anywhere

author: Buriedcode
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 05:45:46 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on August 18, 2019, 01:30:27 pmSo.. wait, you don't believe anything from any kind of news source? Granted, there is often bias, intentional or otherwise with any source of information, but we all have to rely on some things being true. It is never an-all-or-nothing - I'm not suggesting if you trust one source you should trust everything they say, just, a blanket statement like you just made makes no sense. You clearly trust some sources of information.I can't help but think that youtubes changes will have some positive effects. It won't prevent people posting "woo" or conspiracy videos, or worse, fake "life hacks" or fake "food hacks", but hopefully it should stop them rising to the top by pushing them down the list of recommended. It will still mean those who really do want to watch such videos will watch them, and subscribe, but perhaps stop those who will happily hit subscribe to anything, and occasionally watch one of the videos so the recommendations are kept on the list. Effectively dampening the echo-chamber by preventing runaway-views-figures making people trust the source more.I'm not a content creator, and I don't really watch that many YT videos anyway so I really have no idea what effect the changes *will* have.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 06:30:11 pm
content: Did, or does, the chap have a contract with YouTube? Is it not like someone using the pinboard in his local corner shop to post jokes, then finding he could make a few bob from them, and then relying on making enough to live on, and then the shop deciding to site the pinboard round the back? Does the shop have any duty of care towards the bloke that, off his own bat, decided he would make a living piggybacking on the shop?Maybe, after 14 years, his ego can't take not being so revered, and coupled with having to get a proper job...'Course, I don't run a Tube channel and I might see things very differently if I did. OTOH, I have been a reasonably large fish in a few small ponds and suffered involuntary downsizing for one reason or another.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 07:25:37 pm
content: Quote from: Buriedcode on August 18, 2019, 05:45:46 pmI don't trust any source of information more that I absolutely have to. I try to see what various sources say, which usually differ greatly, and try to puzzle out what truth might lie behind the BS.Quote from: Buriedcode on August 18, 2019, 05:45:46 pmSo far the main effects of recent changes seem to be to offer people less material from independent channels, and more material from corporate, advertiser friendly, ones. Whatever biases a place like YouTube may have, their strongest bias will always be to maximise advertising revenue by feeding the public a safe predictable stream of warm diarrhea.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 08:12:34 pm
content: Quote from: SiliconWizard on August 18, 2019, 02:49:01 pmI wonder if this is a ploy by YouTube to make more money in the long run, since many of the lesser known videos/channel users may not have the view counts to give them monetization. Therefore a whole bunch of users with <10,000 views start racking up view counts which eventually gives them the opportunity to monetize, which ultimately increases the amount of advertiser options and encourages more user content. Sure the big channels lose but the overall gain in smaller channels may help YouTube and encourage smaller content producers in the long run feel like they have a better chance to make it. The shake-up doesn't hurt YouTube one bit... as long as they can show ads it doesn't really matter if it is a channel with 100,000 views or 100,000,000 views... as long as users get relevant content.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 08:17:34 pm
content: Hmm. YouTube are definitely manipulating things. I was just on looking at the eye saving mode on Samsung monitors and being not really on the ball I let the next video autoplay, which turned out to be a Linus Tips thing (not monitor related). And all of a sudden I'm in Linus' channel, wall to wall Linus with nothing else. No wonder he is top dog currently.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2019, 09:18:53 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 18, 2019, 01:04:25 pmI was thinking something like that actually, could be some kind of social media platform that simply aggregates your existing social media. It would give users more control. For example it could work kind of like a FB feed and would grab data from FB, Youtube etc and then display it as you wish while cutting out all the crap.Guessing something like that would probably be illegal though and get shut down. Yeah could do it at the personal level but it would be more effective to offer it as a free service.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 12:00:20 am
content: Quote from: dunkemhigh on August 18, 2019, 06:30:11 pmThat's not how Youtube works.You sign up to some random T&C that they can change at any time and/or selectively enforce or break on a whim, then you upload your content and take your chances that some mystical algorithm will favor you.Don't like it? Leave. Good luck trying to sue them for anything. If you are lucky you'll have enough enough public influence to get them to fix something if it goes wrong.QuoteHe was going along just fine untilallhis channels died in the arse practical overnight.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 12:06:48 am
content: BTW, I've mentioned this someone else on here I'm sure.But there has been a massive change in the Recommended videos section in recent times. It used to be great, it gave me a mix of stuff I'm subbed to, related videos to ones I've watched, and the occasional unrelated one so I can find entirely new stuff, I used it daily.Now it is almost completely useless, constantly displays videos that are years old (half half the suggestions), a third of them I've already seen (it can't even track me any more), and just generally crap related content.It was ahugechange.I asked about this on Twitter and without exception everyone else reported the same thing happening to them.Many people say "Just use your subscription tab", but I don't want to do that, I want to new "intelligently" recommended content like I used to get that was valuable.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 12:26:28 am
content: Honestly, as a viewer i do not see any changes in recommended videos. And youtube did not track my viewed videos before and does not do it now, i get videos lined up that i watched already and not even once or twice, youtube keeps throwing them at me.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 01:40:46 am
content: Quote from: Bud on August 19, 2019, 12:26:28 amWith all the videos available for YT to recommend it sure isn't random chance they show the ones they do. Everything Alphabet does EVERYTHING repeat EVERYTHING is designed with the express purpose of finding out more about you and how to leverage that knowledge to maximise the profit from advertising sales.That IS their business.Any ranting that doesn't firmly pivot on that point is missing the point. Spitting at the wind would be as productive.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 01:47:12 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2019, 12:06:48 amValuableto you. That's the whole point. I know people, people who are probably more representative of the general population who subscribe tonothingon YT. It is argued on this forum (incorrectly I think) that people here are somehow atypical. If that is indeed the case then it is entirely plausible that YT has designed the algorithm for the greater bulk of their target audience who have no subscription history.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 01:59:07 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 19, 2019, 01:40:46 amIn addition to furthering "their" political agenda.Sometime it's hard to know which reason they prefer more.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 02:01:04 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 19, 2019, 01:47:12 amMaybe, but there is absolutely no reason why you can't have two algorithms for both camps.Itwasworking quite nicely for those who were subscribed and logged in, now it's just total crap.Youtubeknowswhat kind of user I am.

author: BrianHG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 02:11:27 am
content: I've tracked a continuous decline in the quality of youtube recommended videos for the past 2 years now. Now a smooth slope, but a step at a time around once every 4 months exactly.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 02:25:11 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2019, 12:00:20 amThe hype train stops for no one.I´d say with educational type content you can outperform a sensationalist way to shape the (same) content, simply because it is linkworthy from external sources and usually up to date for far longer periods. The recommendation really only favors certain types of content, length, upload rate and so on, but it´s not as if youtube is responsible for how interesting people will find the video or show it to everyone. The "start page as a kiosk" approach is so highly successful that it became a problem of its own and is adressed as being responsible for lack of success.Quote from: madires on August 18, 2019, 02:27:15 pmI readan articlethat stated these videos became popular through echo-chamber groups in Whatsapp, as Facebook has a deal with carriers for free traffic.Quote from: EEVblog on August 18, 2019, 11:28:55 amWell, hatespeech and fake news became a widespread problem and governments pressed social media of all sorts to react on it (they brought themselves there by providing a platform that lacks conventional human moderation). I don´t really know why you need new approaches for actually existing law (like libel or incitement to racial or ethnic hatred, where applicable), but i guess they just searched for a way around declaring the impact on the data privacy wasps' nest that will happen when actually enforcing the law and giving the free speech argument a spin.QuoteFor most, as far as i understand it, twitter does kind of serve this purpose, just post a link to every piece of content you make there and it aggregates.The problem with this starts when a twitter account is used to talk and discuss, same with hashtags applied in an "unintended" way.It´s an interesting idea, actually you would just need to collect the RSS feeds of your favorite sources and aggregate them. RSS however became a bit unpopular, because it does suppress advertisement opportunities a full webpage has, so fewer platforms offer it. OTOH you could also just scrape websites conventionally and convert them to an RSS feed, or creators themselves could offer RSS feeds to enable such solutions.I however don´t see a working business model around it.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 02:32:29 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 19, 2019, 01:40:46 amNot sure what kind of business they are in. What is the point to throw at me same BigClive videos or Mr. Carlson videos or similar, every day same videos, what does Alphabet get out of me with that? Ads i just mute then skip them.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 03:42:05 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2019, 12:06:48 amIt's interesting how now and then a 10+ year old video will come up, and if you look at the comments, everyone is saying it came up for them too. At the end of the day I think it's geared towards what can bring in more ad revenue, and not what is what people want to see. if a 10 year old video has the potential of going viral again for any reason the algorithm sees fit, then it will show up, and Youtube will make a bunch of money off the ads.I wonder if a lot of these old videos are also youtubers that arn't active or even monetised the video, so Google can just take all the money instead of giving them a cut.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 04:45:13 am
content: Quote from: Bud on August 19, 2019, 02:32:29 amI mute ads as well. The vast majority of people don't. I don't pretend to know how the algorithm works but it does work. Billions of dollars are at stake. They will make it work. But just not for you or me as individuals. Not right away at any rate.To understand how the algorithm works you would either need access to the code or take a longer term view of how recommendations are created and change and try to infer the logic from that. Which I imagine would be quite hard to do.If you've read Asimov's Foundation series then I look at the algorithm as much like Hari Seldon's Psychohistory. It works over populations not individuals.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hari_Seldon

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 05:09:11 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on August 19, 2019, 03:42:05 amI don't mind being recommended old videos, but when old videos combined with videos I've already seen comprises 80-90% of the recommendations every day, the algorithm ceases to become useful for me.What was once a feature I used every day for years, I now despise.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 07:15:38 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2019, 01:59:07 amWhat appears to some to be a political agenda is just the threat to advertising revenue controversial views engender. If they disallowed a video unmonetised from distribution on the platform then I might be less sanguine about the algorithm as a means to manipulate free speech. But simply demonetising a video to protect advertising revenue doesn't seem to be a free speech issue to me.I don't have any doubts that they are solely motivated by the pursuit of profit.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 08:01:04 am
content: Sometimes they delete political videos over controversy, at other times they promote political videos despite controversy. As they say, corporations are persons too. They have their long term goals and don't behave "rationally", in the sense that short-sighted market fundamentalists define "rationality".I also noticed that recommended videos are filled with stuff I have already watched. I must admit that I never login, but neither do I reboot the browser very often and I'm sure it is stuffed full with their cookies.All I can think of is that perhaps we reached a state where 99.9% of their views are people watching pirate music videos or leaving it on autorun showing Spiderman and Elsa videos to their kids for hours a day, such that YT doesn't even care about catering to intelligent life anymore.editOr it's all true and they have been taken over by lizard people who want to dumb us down. Where is the tinfoil hat emoticon?

author: jonovid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 08:10:03 am
content: its so simple he is awhite man! this does not fit the advertising / political narrative in 2019,if TheMeanKitty was a Jewish feminist immigrant with pink or blue colored hair identifying as transgender or transsexual with an unusual pet.YT would be falling over themselves to give it or her? the best algorithms!

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 08:18:34 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 19, 2019, 07:15:38 amYou mustn't be watching the media. Whistleblowers are coming out telling what political agenda they have and how they manipulate the search results to further an agenda. Google employees caught on tape admitting it etc. It's known and out there.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 10:28:18 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2019, 12:06:48 amI've seen the same thing. I wonder if this is Google attempting to do something positive, and making a horrible mess of it. A lot of creators complain that most of their view come in the first 24 to 48 hours after uploading, and if anything spoils the video, like inappropriate demonetization, in that period the impact of the video is completely lost. Perhaps Google are trying to make the offered videos less focussed on new uploads, and have ended up offering a high percentage of really ancient videos.

author: Galenbo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 10:57:31 am
content: I don't watch Youtube, Facebook etc anymore.I mean, I still watch the content, linked or shown in forums and links I visit, but never go to their site and watch their feed, suggestions etc.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 11:08:53 am
content: I feel like they are just showing you what others were most likely to click in their suggestions after they watched whatever you are watching now. A kind of greedy and desperate optimization for "engagement", particularly targeted at masses of more or less identical noobs who are their first time on the Internet and react more or less the same way to the same old content and want the same content to follow.Long story short, the Internet should have stayed exclusive to those who know how to install a web browser and antivirus and Steve Jobs was a traitor.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 01:42:05 pm
content: Worst thing i - as a viewer - can say about the recommendations is that it becomes repetetive and often shows videos i already watched recently or displays the same ones over and over again, although i decided not to click on them or watch them later. Of course it does not work with multiple browser tabs (old recommendation watched in new tab does not remove the recommendation in the other tabs). Sometimes they bump interesting content i would otherwise not have searched for, but are similar to other channels i watch.In other words i need to actually enter something in the search or use suggestions elsewhere if i want to see something different or manually check channels i subscribed to. But i might use it wrong, not using the bell icon very often and spending too much time on youtube in general.Quote from: EEVblog on August 19, 2019, 08:18:34 amUnheard of so far over here, is there a link or source to further read? (edit: nevermind, foundthisandthis, but would see this as a problem with expecting Youtube to be a "News" source or journalist kind)From what i read in recent years there were players that used sponsored ads and external content to build up some echo chambers, but in itself it does not mean the platform does have an agenda, their services were used to promote these campaigns like everyone else uses them. No one bothered, because mostly this starts with grey zone statements.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 03:49:11 pm
content: Quote from: SparkyFX on August 19, 2019, 02:25:11 am(political rant) How novel... A story sourced from NYT about a "radical right wing" movement blaming the system and not the people that actually got awakened by 14 years of vile theft and mismanagement from the left wing party. This is a similar phenomenon that happens here in the US: people got woke, others reacted with vitriol to their BS.(carry on... sorry for the derailment)

author: ve7xen
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 07:55:40 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 19, 2019, 04:45:13 amWe're well into the AI era now. Having the source code would tell you little to nothing about how the algorithm is actually working. Probably even the engineers at YouTube have only a surface level understanding of what it's doing, and influence it only be weighting the metrics it's optimizing for.In general, sometimes I find these approaches are scarily accurate, but very often (Google search results, too) make it more difficult than it used to be to find what I'm actually looking for because the AI is trying to out-clever me. So I think there's two things going on here - one is that the AI is weighted towards the average user, and for users with niche interests probably isn't as good (definitely think this is happening in Search). The other is that the AI is trying to optimize Google's profits while not hurting viewer engagement, neither of which is directly viewer satisfaction, so while we may bitch about the recommendations, are we actually watching less monetized content? As much as I hate the recommendations system lately myself, it hasn't really reduced my YT consumption - yet, I think I'm getting there.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 10:45:29 pm
content: Probably not AI, but clustering of keywords and ranking the matches.These algorithms are more or less apositive feedback loop, which is fine if you search for some knowledge. In other words, once you choose autoplay, you are kind of drawn into the center of some topic, with every video you get the most or highest ranked keyword matches of the last few ones as the highest ranking for the next recommendation.It is bad if the starting point is at some opinion based content, you get like the most matches and it seems some people in their basement are choosing wider ranges of keywords than news outlets and therefore beat them in that regard, matching more often in these positive feedback loops, no matter where you started.What these algorithms can´t detect is satire and cynicism, which do have stronger matches/better association to certain keywords (by naming it more often, using it more specific) than most serious content and then it drifts off into fictional areas, which are somewhat related.Quote from: rsjsouza on August 19, 2019, 03:49:11 pmI am not sure if a purely stereotypical approach does what you think, without a healthy amount of dissent most systems are bound to fail, no matter the intentions they started out with. It might be a bad idea to brush it off this way.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2019, 11:04:43 pm
content: What's your favorite TV show? How long did it remain on the air? 8 years? I think the average is probably 2-3 years. Ok, if you like CSI:, I guess that is a weird exception. I don't know if it really counts as one show, but it just doesn't die.I never heard of MeanKitty, and I don't feel like watching his video. But I'll take Dave's word that he was broken by the algorithm. This is sad. I venture he was made by the algorithm, to begin with. In this particular case, I don't know why he would have been targeted. It doesn't sound like he had a political agenda or anything. But I bet his show stopped growing and started losing popularity. A channel that is actively growing is quite a different thing from one that is steady. And that is quite a different thing from one that is shrinking. The "algorithm" may soon abandon the latter. And a show with this particular sort of content and following, that could mean a very quick death. That is not necessarily unnatural.If 96+% of your viewership doesn't subscribe and only gets there by random/placement/visibility/recommendation to begin with, it is possible he was successful by gaming the algorithm(or random chance/luck?) to begin with? I seems like he hit upon some part of the algorithm that gave his videos a high level of visibility for many years... and if his subscriber base is still so small he can't afford to continue... maybe YT improved the algorithm in some ways?Mainstream stars also live and die by their masters. Sure, they have beauty and charisma. But they were created. And they can be (and are) broken. Happens all the time. For having the wrong political views. For trying to build their own platforms that bypass the mainstream media. The kings behind the curtain destroy them in a blink of an eye. Youtube will be no different.As long as there's still a few people striking it big, people will be happy to pick up a shovel and start digging. Youtube will be happy to loan them the shovel.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 12:04:23 am
content: The Simpsons is the only TV show I've watched for than a couple times. I've seen every episode even the new ones. So 30 years.I don't doubt that some of his subscribers will go, but some will also be new. Every day someone probably goes to youtube for their first time to get some cat videos. It's an ebb and flow. If all of a sudden your channel dies it's probably not that everyone got tired of your channel or stopped watching. An algorithm change doesn't have to be targeted to destroy you. As most of us know one small change can have a large effect elsewhere. He also had a few channels. What are the odds all your channels fall out of favor with their audience?

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 12:48:17 am
content: QuoteI think it can only create you. There is nothing in the algorithm that can stop someone seeing a video - all it does is bring new viewers to it. If you know of the video or subscribe you can still go and view them, so what we're talking about here is essentially churn.If your channel relies on new viewers then it's not exactly a popular channel since existing viewers don't find it entrancing enough to come back. All the algorithm can have an effect on, the, is pushing new viewers to an otherwise so-so channel, or make an already popular channel bigger.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 12:58:02 am
content: You have to remember that the audience is changing regardless of the content. If an algorithm change helps keep new viewers from discovering the hannel while others are deciding they're going elsewhere or just done with that content your channel will fail. Looking at stats many channels have times where the losses match the gains, so it looks stagnant. Technically it is but more people know about the channels than before even if some of them no longer like it.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 01:48:25 am
content: QuoteSure, for some channels. And some channels will have a core of persistent viewers (the subscribers, for instance). There is a question as to how big that core might be in relation to passing viewers but, again, I think it would depend on the channel.I don't believe you can blindly say that all channels will fail if they don't get a continuous stream of new eyeballs via the algorithm. As an example, I've watched quite a few of Dave's videos (well, most of the way through them anwyay) but I've never got to them via the algorithm and I don't subscribe.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 02:10:26 am
content: Ok, I watched the video.I know I'm a doucebag, but:"I'm probably quitting. Definitely not today, definitely not next week. Maybe in October. On the 14th anniversary of my first channel."- read, please YT god, make my quitting video go viral and put me back on the map. lol.But also he mentions plans to move to "his own platform." Anyone know what he is talking about? If he was serious and vocal about this on his YT channel in the past, well hello reason to be targeted by YT.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 02:17:43 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on August 19, 2019, 11:04:43 pmNot my word, he shows data from his metric that show all this channels drop off a cliff after the algorithm change.QuoteHe was targeted in any way, Youtube just changed the algorithm that happened to affect his channels. But given that his content is different across different channels and they all went down, the Algorithm has some sort of side effect on connected channel. e.g. EEVblog, EEVblog2, and EEVdiscover are all connected under the same Google login.QuoteNope, not possible. He has 1M+ subscribers, and IIRC got a few hundred K view each video, so normal sub/view ratio for a Youtube channel.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 02:20:19 am
content: ^So 1 million subscribers? And he claims to be quitting Youtube?I take 100 to 1 odds he doesn't quit YT, today, next week, or in October.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 02:20:28 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on August 20, 2019, 02:10:26 amProbably some paid subscription thing on his own website?There are other free video hosts out there like Bitchute, Daily Motion, Vimeo, and even Facebook.If you are still making content I don't know why you'd quite Youtube and only put your material somewhere else, it's not a rational choice.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 02:23:51 am
content: Actually, if you look at his videos and views there is a possible explaination in the drop from a few hundred K views to a few 10's of K views - there was an over 3 month period where he released no videos:Maybe the algorithm published him severely for that?

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 02:25:17 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on August 19, 2019, 11:04:43 pmBut as much as i like pets, i kind of think that this kind of video is only made popular by the algorithm and if there is no other factor keeping the viewers there, then certain problems will take over, even without a change in algorithm.You don´t need "kings behind the curtain", if enough people figure cat/pet videos are easy to make and very popular, they´ll saturate the "market". I.e. pick up the viewers, which devalues content you make, they´ll make it quicker, more accessible and maybe more often ... and they outnumber you, they also want to be served viewers by recommendation. Only way around this is to keep it interesting and entertaining, so people come back.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 02:31:25 am
content: FWIW, I just searched YT for "funny cat video."The search gives me pages of videos, no "MeanKitty" to be seen, yet.So far, though? All these channels have way more subscribers than 1 million. One has 193 million!

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 02:54:31 am
content: SparkyFX:Yeah, I dunno why I added that. In the first part of that post, I mentioned being unaware of any reason he would be targeted. I was just making a general point.For example, there's Luis CK. Dude was huge. Not everyone's cup of tea. I'm not personally invested in Luis CK, but check it.LCK is taken down by the media. For things that he did... in like 2005-2012. Things, which according to all known facts weren't even... that bad? And exactly days before his new movie was ready to be released. (Movie that seems like it was a bit embarrassing to one Woody Allen, no less?). He had a contract with Netflix. He had some other show, apparently, on HBO?But.... get this. He spurned a cable deal for his latest comedy video. He noped out of DRMA. He said F it. I'll just make my video, email a bunch of people about it, and let them download it for 5 bucks. He was also starting to promote and sell videos of other comedians on his own website.So bottom line. CK grossed a million dollars in 2 weeks when he released his latest video. He probably spent $400,000 creating it and promoting it. Filming, editing, website, support, etc. Netted probably around half a million, at least. So?If he did a cable deal, his video would have sold for $30 bucks a pop. CK would have made a bit less, for himself... But "other people in the industry" would have made tens of millions in the process.Kaboom. Bye bye Luis CK. Destroyed by the media with curious timing. For borderline things he did while "protected" by the industry, years ago. Even his "victims" don't portray themselves like victims... and are probably still employed or seeking advancement in the industry that organized the takedown.MeanKitty, if he was really talking about "making his own platform," well, there might be a reason for a sudden decline. Not posting a video for 3 months, as Dave has found, might be another reason.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 03:37:14 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on August 20, 2019, 02:31:25 amErr, not even PewDiePie has 100M, link?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 03:42:35 am
content: Quote from: KL27x on August 20, 2019, 02:54:31 amEven if he talked about creating his own platform before this video, Youtube wouldn't care, he's a nobody to them, there are almost 10,000 channels with more subscribers than him, he's down in the noise, practically at my level for all intents.I now think it's the 3 month hiatus.I bought Luis CK's internet special

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 04:17:25 am
content: ^Oops, I was looking at views, not subscribers. That channel only had 2.1 million subscribers.QuoteRight on. Honestly, he hadn't crossed my mind for years before the scandal. But after reading into the details and between the lines, I also bought it.I have nothing against the thousands of people who were cut out by Luis taking his show to his own platform. They have families. They have bills. Luis might be an asshole, even. I dunno. But it just makes me feel something.

author: maginnovision
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 07:38:21 am
content: Pets 2 without Louis C.K. was a non starter. My daughter refuses to watch not Max.

author: mc172
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 07:53:28 am
content: It's easy to go straight towards blaming YouTube, but if you ask any, say 12-16 year old (at least in the UK) what they want to do/be when they grow up, the answer will more than likely be "YouTuber". There must be millions of channels. How is YouTube supposed to cut the audience up fairly?

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 08:49:06 am
content: Quote from: ve7xen on August 19, 2019, 07:55:40 pmI woulnn't call it AI, but machine learning, which is definitely an element of Youtube's algorithm.It must process the videos, looking at both the video and audio. I've watched a few weather forecast videos, Youtube noted the graphics and started recommending cartoons and animations, even though I've hardly watched any cartoons on Youtube. There's also a link to what other viewers watch as I also get other weather related channels too.I've always found the suggestions dumb.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 09:31:12 am
content: Machine Learning (ML) is the process of training an Artificial Intelligence (AI).As long as there is an alreadytrainedNeural Network (NN) up and running, we have an AI.AI nowadays (not to be confused with General Artificial Intelligence, GAI) are limited only to specific problems, i.e. video recommendations based on maximizing profits without deterring the viewer.GAI, which isn't yet available, it is supposed to be able to self adapt to new types of problems, problems completly different from the ones used during the ML process.A GAI (not available yet) is suppose to be more like the human mind, while a trained AI (already available and running, i.e. to make video recommendations) is more like an expert for a specific problem only.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 10:23:28 am
content: Yes the differentiation between machine learning and AI is not clear cut as one may use the other, but can exist without each other.My own viewing habbits on YouTube have begun noticing a bit of "peaking" in the algorithm. For instance YouTube used to recommend a whole range of music to me, but I got caught up in watch one particular type of video based music for a while, at the same time I did other things, so wasn't clicking "Next>>>" a lot. It seems the algorithm now believe to "increase watch time" as it has been instructed that it will ONLY offer me that type of music video. It takes me to search for other music to find any and even then as soon as I hit next it takes the shortest path back to the same old videos again.I think the thing that hurt channels most was the removal of automatic subscription notifications. You have to turn them on now. So a subscription will upload a video, but it will be buried in the 5th or 6th list on your home page and you miss it.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 10:28:53 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on August 20, 2019, 09:31:12 amI don´t think there is a piece of code specifically for each viewer running, just data on recent actions and external data (past browsed websites, search terms) for advertisement. Would that qualify as an AI, if the training is basically just a tag cloud with ageing?

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 10:35:20 am
content: Quote from: SparkyFX on August 20, 2019, 10:28:53 amThe algorithm IS tuned to each individual user. It looks at the data on past viewings and other things and then tries to achieve one single goal. Increase watch time.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 11:02:35 am
content: Quote from: paulca on August 20, 2019, 10:35:20 amNot any more!A few months back the algorith changed such that is now floods people's Recommended list with videos they have all ready watched.Heck, they even added a "Tell Us Why" ignore option called "I've already watched this video"

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 11:03:08 am
content: I was just trying to highlight the difference between ML and AI, and why "the youtube algorithm" is not only a ML but also a full AI. Sorry for not quoting what the message I was replying to:Quote from: Zero999 on August 20, 2019, 08:49:06 am

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 11:44:22 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 20, 2019, 11:02:35 amYes. So it looks at what you watched before, picks those videos that you watched a lot of and represents them, along with videos it deems "similar".All it wants is to make you watch as much YouTube as possible. Not video count, but watched minutes.This is also why you want to aim for longer videos as the AI will select those preferentially as they present the best opportunity to get a long watch time.Long watch time = more advert slots = more revenue.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 12:15:35 pm
content: QuoteDo the adverts change whilst you're watching? (I don't know - can't remember seeing any adverts on YT).

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 12:16:15 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 20, 2019, 11:44:22 amThis is insanity. Why present videos to people thatthey know they have already watched?All it does it piss people off.And it's not just one or two occasionally, for my feed it's sometimes half of the recommended videos.It never used to do this.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 12:36:35 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 20, 2019, 12:16:15 pmIf you ask them why it did what it did the answer will be, "We don't know."It's becoming a problem in data analysis, is that once an AI has been running for a while it has created such complex computational cells (or neural networks) that no human will ever be able to understand them.It is also happening in science with one team analyzing a dataset with an AI and coming up with a set of results, but when a different team analyse the same data with a different AI they get different results and neither can explain why. I have heard of being described in science as "a crisis".Although, one thing is for sure. If it wasn't increasing watch time it wouldn't be doing it, does work.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 12:44:19 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 20, 2019, 12:16:15 pmDon't say it, it's a pain! I wrote them back in the youtube feedback page so many times. After a while I gave up. That was 5-10 years ago. At this point I'm sure that practice won't go away.The only explanation I can think about is that many (if not most of the) people indeed have the habit of re-watching the same video many times, either because it's a trendy song or a nostalgic video, IDK.For sure youtube knows re-recomanding viewed videos piss off some people, but hey, as long as this improves the revenue and it's not illegal and doesn't kill the business, why not?After all, youtube's goal is to make money, not necessarily to please users.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 01:00:59 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 20, 2019, 12:16:15 pmYoutube still keep a long term record of what you watch, and how much of each video you have watched. On my youtube homepage they show a group of videos I only partly watched, to see if I want to finish them. Some of these are videos I partly watched quite a long time ago. They are all marked at the bottom with the red bar to show how much I have already watched. However, of the videos I have watched to completion some are marked with the red bar. and some aren't. This seems random.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 01:37:07 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 20, 2019, 12:16:15 pmAs I said: pirate music uploads, pacifying kids with shitty entertainment. I'm sure there are more use cases like that where the same vid is watched over and over again.Welcome to Eternal September, I'm sure you've been on the 'net long enough to know what that means

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 01:55:57 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 20, 2019, 12:16:15 pmNot that I am representative of anything or anybody but personally it doesn't piss me off because I hardly ever look at the suggested videos. And ocassionally I do like to watch again videos I enjoyed in the past. There are a couple of channels I feel are being unfairly targeted by YT and I will some times play some videos and let the ads play because I know it is revenue for the channel. If I am working on one computer I can just play some video with the sound off in another computer and it does not bother me one bit.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 02:15:46 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 20, 2019, 12:16:15 pmCan it be that people edit the description or title of a video afterwards, which does enqueue it new into peoples feeds? I have the impression that it mostly affects videos i watched right after release.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 02:56:39 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 20, 2019, 12:16:15 pmI think Youtube is not allowed to keep a record of videos you watched due to privacy regulations.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 03:03:44 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 20, 2019, 02:56:39 pmYouTube definitely knows what videos I have seen and I don't even have a YT account nor am I logged in. Google and YT just identify the computer with a signature. They might not know my name, although I suspect they probably do, but they know what the user of this computer has been watching.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 03:36:46 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 20, 2019, 03:03:44 pmThey just save a cookie on your computer and use it to identify you. Delete the cookie and they'll have no record of you.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 03:52:50 pm
content: Quote from: Zero999 on August 20, 2019, 03:36:46 pmNope. It is not through cookies. All my cookies are automatically deleted on exit. Not cookies.Like Teamviewer, they compute a "signature" of the computer and the only way to change that is to change the physical configuration.In Teamviewer I can reinstall the OS and TeamViewer and still be assigned the same ID. Change the physical configuration and the ID changes.I once read an interesting page explaining how this is done but cannot find it now. It can be done by a combination of hardware identification and software. Create a signature that is based on a combination of say, browser used, add-ons, configuration, other software like codecs, etc, hardware, .... heck just the network card's MAC address is unique if the software can get it. There are many ways to get a unique signature for a computer.Youtube definitely does not use cookies to identify me because no matter what, they are deleted every time I exit. And some sites will say "enable cookies".

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 05:18:09 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 20, 2019, 03:52:50 pmAh. Teamviewer. The ultimate Trojan. Never seen a higher security threat than that service.

author: PlainName
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 05:21:07 pm
content: QuoteThere are common or garden cookies, and under-the-radar cookies.Besides which, particular machines can be fingerprinted and identified uniquely via various parameters your browser will let slip. I would feel safe placing money on Google doing that without shouting about it. Hell, they would do it just because they can and figure how to monetize it later.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 06:20:03 pm
content: Quote from: paulca on August 20, 2019, 05:18:09 pmI have seen no evidence of this and have always heard good things about it. I do not want to hijack this thread so if you feel like sharing your evidence and experience I would be interested in reading about it in a thread I started about TeamViewer in the computer section or you can start a new thread there if you prefer. I would like to know what vulnerabilities have been discovered.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 07:00:24 pm
content: Quote from: soldar on August 20, 2019, 03:52:50 pmIn Windows you do not have to go through that acrobatics, there is a single API call that does it for you.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 07:19:06 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on August 20, 2019, 07:00:24 pmI figure that's how they tie the license number to the hardware.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 07:48:42 pm
content: One doesn't simply call Windows API from JavaScript, thoughBut soldar is right, plenty of information can be gathered by JS such as browser version, supported video formats and plugins, screen resolution, supposedly something about browser addons too. Also IP you are connecting from, time at which you use your computer, what things you search for, how it correlates with searches from other machines on the same IP, I'm sure the list is long.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 07:53:52 pm
content: Google knows who you are. And unless you use a VPN, your internet provider potentially knows everything you have watched or done online, too.QuoteI have played around with this for a bit, now. And I only ever see the occasional repeat in my sidefeed, maybe 1-2... with one exception. On occasion if I watch a machining-related video, I may get several old videos.... from the same channel, ToT. But ToT happens to be the only machining related channel I'm subbed to. And I have just so happened to have already watched nearly all the videos on his channel. And, I have actually watched several of his videos twice, on purpose.So my feed doesn't appear super broken.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 09:03:56 pm
content: Tracking without cookies is not a new thing: search forE-TagTracking, in short it does work by a cache identifier that is transmitted when checking if a site changed for the browser to see if it needs to reload the content.

author: KL27x
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 09:17:48 pm
content: Yep. Delete a cookie? LOL.If you want to see what YouTube will show a "blank slate," you can use Chrome incognito mode. Then Google will pretend it doesn't recognize you.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 10:19:11 pm
content: Quote from: SparkyFX on August 20, 2019, 02:15:46 pmNo, the video ID remains the same.Some HUGE change happened to the Recommended algorithm so it now spews up old videos you've already watched. It's either very deliberate, or they have somehow "reset" all the info of previous videos you've watched over the years.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 10:52:43 pm
content: Maybe it is just some cache clearing or a problem with synchronization of which videos have been watched by who in the/between several data center(s) (you don´t always end up in the same). Might just be some technical error after all... some guys are a bit quick with the conspiracy theories.My thinking went: once you change the description or add some other metadata that part technically would need to be reindexed wherever that is, maybe that resets some other entries as well.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2019, 11:39:14 pm
content: Quote from: KL27x on August 20, 2019, 07:53:52 pmThanks to HTTPS, they can tell what sites you have visited but not what you did on those sites. (E.g. It's easy to figure out that you watch Youtube, but to figure out what videos you have watched, they can only guess based on file size, a difficult task with such a vast library.) With DNSSEC, they'll have to do reverse IP lookups even to figure out what sites you have visited. And then comes a way to add some noise to make that slightly more difficult: seed some legal torrents.Quote from: SparkyFX on August 20, 2019, 09:03:56 pmSo if you have fast, unlimited Internet, disable the cache to disable one more tracking mechanism? I would be surprised if they're not using IP address tracking, since a VPN or Tor is pretty much the only way to defeat that at home. Or be (un)lucky enough to be using community Wifi with dozens of users on the same IP.

author: wilfred
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2019, 12:53:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 20, 2019, 10:19:11 pmOr they are seeing IF people will watch videos twice. Does it matter to YT if someone watches the same content twice? I am watching repeats of the X-Files and Season 3 of Bosch right now on FTA TV. I think YT wants to appear to most viewers, who see the YT app on their smart TV next to Netflix, as another TV channel.I also rewatch YT videos. I've watched your video #110 at least 3 times. and years apart. Admittedly I don't need a recommendation from YT to help me choose.In fact I see the appearance of a YT icon on smart TVs as the true underlying cause of the changes YT has made of late.And it is very deliberate. Don't bother to doubt it. Their bottom line depends on it directly.I see the changes in the algorithm as very like the flow of water in a river. The current will carry most (viewers) along the path of least resistance. The sporadic patches of turbulence only matters to the obstacle that generated it. Minor grumbles from viewers here and content creators (ie. the obstacles) will continue to diminish in significance. As with almost everything these day I look at it as a manifestation of Darwinian Natural Selection. The changes that work will stay and those that don't, won't. The AI behind it will become self aware soon and it will introduce it's own changes. If YT can't survive profitably then the algorithm will die.

author: schmitt trigger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2019, 02:37:22 am
content: “The Algorithm”.Sounds like a sinister ploy straight out from The Matrix movie.Sadly, this time is true.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2019, 04:22:43 am
content: Quote from: SparkyFX on August 20, 2019, 10:52:43 pmNope, description and metadata can be changed on a whim, and Youtubers often do that and experiment in real time if a video is not performing as expected.

author: SparkyFX
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2019, 10:40:53 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 21, 2019, 12:53:10 amWhich is the autoplay feature.Quote from: EEVblog on August 21, 2019, 04:22:43 amSure, but then it will trigger a reindexing of some sort, otherwise it would be displayed/found/considered by recommendations/autoplay with the old data (the creator would see it as an error if changes are not made instantly). All of these would need to respect if the video has already been watched (at least people think it is not as expected/an error). It takes some time until such changes get through all associated databases, maybe a change to the metadata creates some race condition which leads to recommend an already watched video again.

author: paulca
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 21, 2019, 10:45:51 am
content: Think of your children when you are trying to get them out of your hair for an hour by plopping them in front of the TV.What do you put on for them?Well I know that I will pick things that I know they have watched intently before so that I know they will stay in front of the TV. If I experiment and put something new on and they don't like it, they will arrive in the lab with questions and mischief.In this analogy we are the children, YouTube is the parents trying to get their kids to watchsomething intentlyadverts.

author: jancumps
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 21, 2019, 11:53:35 am
content: I have the same experience with recommendations. It doesn’t show videos I’d be interested in anymore.Maybe they want to make the user experience so bad for a while that, when they release the algorithm they really want to use, it is seen as a little step forwards instead of a big leap back?