Kits/Projects for advancing beginners??? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 04:18:12 pm
content: After looking around, I decided on the Elenco AM/FM radio kit as a learning platform.These can be had retail for about $50 and for $20 or so if you are pleasant when you send an offer on eBay. Looks like eBay has the packages intended for educational use.While it does start the builder off in the right direction, you need to be self directed to get full use out of it as a learning platform. For example, you are told to measure emitter resistor voltages without telling you why the value should be what it is. Time to pull out network theory.Lots of learning time on modulation, scope use, sig gen use, transistor theory (if you dig into it), etc. Of course, LC ckts and resonance. The build time was not long, but I spent two weeks by the time I was done exploring. Even learned about emitter junction resistance (inverse of transconductance).It does share some of the faults of the ThaiKit Curve Tracer. For example, I could not get the supplied LM385 to stop oscillating. Replaced it with a second one I had on an Arduino module, better, but not fixed. I did notice the oscillation was reduced when I applied heat with the heat gun. SO I learned some things there, but replacing it with a genuine LM385 fixed the issue.Since I wanted to do the analyses, I recorded the "as installed" resistor values. Their resistors were generally OK; but their caps are horrible. Also, I finally saw a youtube where the presenter had many of the same issues I encountered. But he added that the tuning cap could be destroyed by too much heat.He also explained that the .01 uF cap between the sig gen probe and the ckt was to keep the 9VDC out of the sig gen. This was not explained in the kit manual.The provided test points are crap. I used single header pins and Dupont jumpers to connect the sig gen.In the end, the AM radio is not very useful. AM is all but dead and the antenna is not great. BUT, it did fill my goals. I did read about coupling antennas to improve reception but in my area the AM band is either religious or political. SO that part is done.I will go on to the FM section this winter.In the meantime, is there a list of kits or projects that yield useful things? Not Arduino kinds of stuff, stuff that can advance a beginners understanding of fundamentals while building something "practical".

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 06:00:20 pm
content: I have done a couple of simple radio kit "assembles" - but because of the end product I wouldn't advocate much for them.If there is a case for beginner's kits I think it would be in test equipment.

author: Benta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2024, 09:13:31 pm
content: Velleman has lots of kits:https://www.velleman.eu/products/list/?id=456012

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 06:44:52 am
content: Not a kit, and you may probably already know his channel,w2aew:https://www.youtube.com/@w2aew/videosIn the YT channel description, there is a list with all the videos:https://qsl.net/w2aew/youtube/W2AEW_video_index.pdfHas many videos about radio, including FM. Very concise, theory + build + measurements in 10-30 minutes or so.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 11:23:09 am
content: I have two power supplies to recommend. Both are sold these days by Hiland. First the simple analog one It has some opamps and a big transistor for power output. The kit has some issues (mainly over stated maximum current and voltage, the original was designed in the '80-ies and used the LM741, which can have up to a 44V power supply). But issues are good for learning electronicsThis power supply can be used as a base to learn some opamp theory and how they are used in real applications, Especially the voltage reverence with feedback from the output to generate a stable zener current is a classic. It's got some caps to get the thing stable, and that is an entry for some experimentation around opamp stability. It's negative voltage generator can be replaced with an 7660 if no AC is present.The other is the "digital" version with two rotary encoders and a HDD44780. As is, it's a real lemon. It only has very rudimentary current limiting (controlled via software) and it's software is written very badly. But these shortcomings also make it suitable as a kit for learning experiences. Fun fact about this one is that it only uses BJT's for it's output stage. Adding a NPN transistor over the current shunt for a hardware current limit and figuring out how to incorporate that in the schematic and dimensioning it is a good way to practice electronic design for beginners. It's also got an ATMEGA8, Recreating it's software is simple, and improving upon it is also easily done. It also has an 10 bit R-2R DAC. This can be used to teach something about resistor tolerances and their influence. Resistor tolerances are really important in an R-2R DAC. You can also modify it to use filtered PWM for the output. EDN has a whole series of articles about smart ways to get accurate and stable DC voltages from a PWM output, and ideas of improving PWM to DC resolution and speed. Tuxgraphics also has a very nice Idea of combining an R-2R DAC with PWM on it's lowest bit. This gives high resolution and low ripple (can be reduced further by adding capacitors inside the R-2R network.Both of these kits are also extremely cheap. They are cheap enough that if your students completely blow up a PCB, you just have a good laugh, grab another kit of the shelf and continue. And both are real power supplies that will have practical use for many other projects to follow. Building something they can actually use is a big motivator.

author: BILLPOD
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 06:22:46 pm
content: Good Morning Watchmaker, I just discovered this kit the other day, and I might give it a go.Hey, for $10 buckeroos I can't get hurt too bad if it turns out to be junk.https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806775349432.html?src=google&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2024, 07:57:32 pm
content: ..probably, not the DSO138 - a day on the hardware, but more work to follow, plus, this kit has a low success rateedited +the scope will trigger only on the lowest sensitivity(1) position of 10mv ?and I didn't get the "genuine" model from JYETECHedited ++I found you have to align the ground and Vpos (zero volt vertical trace position) to ensure a trigger - but this alignment is soon gone and this quirk doesn't seem to get addressed by any reviewers.I think my verdict is you could duplicate what these youtubers have created - but still be left with a frustratingly unusable scope.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 12:08:54 pm
content: Thank you all. It would be great if this turns into a list of suggested kits.In the meantime,I think there is an opportunity for one of the more entrepreneurial pros to make a business making useful kits that actually work. Ther "should" be a market beyond the "learning to solder (through hole, SMD)" stuff. How many hourglass timers can a learner stand? For example, a voltage current reference that teaches the theory behind the design? Or those $20 freq gens? Even take the kits from Ali and provide an educational manual? Learners will pay for the value added. There must be hundreds of such opportunities.The problem with the Elenco and Thaikit is they are old designs with parts substitutions that may not even be documented (tuner in Elenco).As pointed out above, too many of these kits fail to produce and lead only to frustration unless the learner is willing to use the failures as an opportunity to learn and correct. OTOH, by definition a learner may not have the ability to figure out where to start.I built the RetroIC kit which IS useful and very well documented. But that was not a learning exercise. It was away to get an instrument that is just about the only thing that dies what it does (with regular firmware updates even).So, it looks like using the usual books and YouTube sources (as suggested by RoGeorge, thank you very much) for projects and learning platforms.Other than low voltag power supplies, I think test equipment is better purchased. Plenty of good quality used stuff out there (and new) the low cost and known performance would seem to be of value.

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 12:30:44 pm
content: the topic is explored by Richard atLearn Electronics Repair- finding kits seems to be an issue

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 12:46:11 pm
content: Probably not many are looking for learning kits, or else they will be available all over the place, just like ready made modules are. The trend in hobby/maker builds is to use ready made modules instead of components, and focus on the end functionality and not much on electronics.Don't know how good the kits or the manuals are, but I've remembered there is also this shop:https://www.tindie.com/browse/educational-kits/

author: armandine2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 02:41:20 pm
content: The DSO138, going on how many people continue to make videos on it, must be one of the commoner beginner's kitssee link for a fairly recent take on the process

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 04:11:49 pm
content: DSO138 is pretty bad. I bought one, and it's mostly usable as an STM32 development platform with TFT display, and the price is not bad for just that.DSO Shell is very similar, but with a better user interface and in a plastic box. If it's triggering was better, and the thing was less noisy it would have a half decent performance to price ratio. I bought one of both, but have not done much with it. I still do have a plan to figure out why both these scopes are so noisy, and if something can be done about that relatively easily. The firmware is also partially open sourced. I believe the actual sampling is done with a pre built library. Improving the software for these things may be a worthwhile project.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 08:19:19 pm
content: Maybe you find the "skullcomm" series interesting. He's designed a bunch of test equipment that probably works reasonably well. I have not looked very close at it, but from the little that I have seen he uses relatively good (but also expensive) parts, and the software is a minimum proof of concept "arduino" level of programming.Velleman has already been mentioned I think, but there are other "historical" kit providers too and several are still alive.And does it have to be kits? What sort of experience level do you expect from these "advancing beginners". It's quite easy to design your own PCB's these days, and affordable too. Making a BOM and online ordering can be done by 12 year olds with a bit of supervision, but I guess that at that age they may loose interest quite quickly if they do not get enough support.And there are also still the good old breadboards and matrix boards. Breadboards are nice to try out things quickly, but they are high on capacitance (Right now I'm working on a breadboard project where there is a uC next to the breadboard, and the breadboard has a few resitors and IR and photo diodes and also holds the wiring for my logic analyzer in place while I have my hands on the keyboard. Matrix board is good enough for semi permanent circuits. I have one-off projects built on matrix board that are now running for 15+ years.And also, making mistakes is a very good and educational part of the learning experience. Struggling for half a day for why that 500MHz opamp is oscillating every time you attempt to put it on a breadboard is a learning moment you'll never forget again.

author: watchmaker
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2024, 09:09:18 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on September 22, 2024, 08:19:19 pmThanks. I am the advancing beginner (at 72 years). Been following the courses by Boylestad, Malvino and Real Analog. Alos your tube channels like Dave Jones, Albus, and Aw2ew(?).But I like to break from the labsl Hence, kits. But as others pointed out, I am not the first to run into this. And as RoGeorge points out, everyone wants the low hanging fruit of modules.My wife tells me I am not THAT special so I suspect there are others who want to learn what creates the magic. Tindie seems the closest to what I have in mind, but it has nothing for me.So it is instructables, all about ckts, project books like Mims and such and just build.Fortunately, I am in a position where I could afford to build a reasonable learning lab around Siglent stuff and used Flukes. Plus, I acquired and sorted unused stock room product like capacitors and discrete semis. But others who are not so fortunate probably also want to learn. And a kit of collected parts would be helpful.And my primary concern is ktis built with the declared purpose of teaching theory and assuming the learner knows how to solder. When I was in my teens, there were monthly subscription kits that actually taught fundamentals of electronics and tube theory.Looks like I am tilting at windmills. So it goes.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 06:24:43 am
content: Another type of kit, which is more for learning than for building, isADALM2000(with letter M before 2000, the all-in-one measuring instrument and signal generator) + its components kitADALP2000(with letter P before 2000), a collection of most used parts and integrated circuits.Its goal is to teach the student about analog electronic, with brief theory then by building and measuring the circuit on a breadboard. Sure, one can follow the classes and use other measuring instruments instead of ADALM2000+ADALP2000. Using own instruments to generate the signal then measure the results might also be a good exercise in learning own oscilloscope/generator/supply/DMM/etc.The lessons can be found in the "student zone"https://www.analog.com/en/resources/analog-dialogue/studentzone/they are prepared by engineers from Analog Design, and to give a random example, this is the latest one:ADALM2000 Activity: Envelope Detectorhttps://www.analog.com/en/resources/analog-dialogue/studentzone/studentzone-september-2024.html

author: J-R
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 07:36:57 am
content: https://www.jameco.com/c/Electronic-Kits.html

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2024, 02:27:57 pm
content: I really like the Elliot Sound Products website. They sell kits and have lots of background information freely available for the products they sell, and they sell them at very reasonable prices.They very clearly have a goal of education too besides just selling kits.https://sound-au.com/schools.htm