USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2020, 06:31:49 am
content: ## THIS IS NOTHING TO DO WITH ELECTRICAL PROPERTIES OR PROTOCOLS - GET THAT STRAIGHT BEFORE YOU READ THIS ##Most of the hype that the dimwits in the "tech meejaa" blabber on about <insert currently popular consumer sheep targeted consumer grade electronic fad that everyone's automatically swallowed as a "great innovation"> is junk.Okay, we know that. USB-C plugs are SO THIN and flimsy, made from the same folded steel as all the rest, but then SO much thinner, I'm almost afraid to plug mine in too hard in case the shell bends or snaps.Remind me again why all these non-engineering lemmings believe it's SO SO GOOD, because physically it's a hollow, weak metal shell with almost no durability at all. Apple's lightning plugs are machined from solid steel, and have two nice indentation dimples either side that latch positively into some form of spring-loaded latch or bearing.So why is this horse shit connector so "magic"? It's clearly not. It is a weak, weak, flimsy piece of junk.Others seem to think so too:https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21533767

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2020, 06:42:11 am
content: I'm not a fan. I have an employer issued Macbook and I have ripped the end off several expensive USB-C cables by tripping over it or by the ridiculously slippery machine sliding off the back of the sofa or the arm of a char and smacking the connector into the ground. The old style fullsized USB connectors are far more mechanically robust and the cables are a lot cheaper. USB-C tries to be too much and even years later the standard is still a mess and I have to use dongles for everything.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2020, 06:53:14 am
content: I used to work on production lines assembling/testing DIN rail controls and sensors for military and industrial purposes. I don't expect consumer junk to be built that well **these days** (it almost always came close, decades ago).I'm so so bored and done with the whole consumer electronics/iot/"smart" bollocks that everyone on YouTube laps up and fawns over, this trash upsets my soul, it's all so dull. I'd love to be back in industrial grade or above, and not have to waste my talents on this shite, and the inevitability dumb consumer-grade misunderstandings, conversations and daily PEBKAC tedium that comes along for the ride.I'm far happier working on stuff with ZERO public coverage or consumer appeal, ergo I don't get asked endless questions by people who've NO need to know WHY I'm doing a repair that way, etc. I'd rather answer "what's your job?" with something that sounds SO much like "particle accelerator" to the average man, that they'd be disinterested enough to never be tempted to ask again

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 16, 2020, 11:53:26 am
content: Yep. We use Dell laptops at work with USB-C docks. The plug on them wiggles around due to the stiff cable and all the conductors. It's only a matter of time before something breaks.However that said, I have a Lenovo laptop at home and the USB-C/Thunderbolt cable is magnetically coupled to the proprietary Lenovo power connector for extra support and rigidity. It's actually a decent implementation that takes the stress off the dock connector and laptop socket.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2020, 12:35:05 pm
content: It well known USB designers are actually artists, and the USB-C is the latest fashion statement.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2020, 03:17:06 pm
content: The insertion force of USB-C is way too high for the strength of the components.It is also really unnecessary.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 01:18:37 am
content: Two words: planned obolescence.Also, never underestimate the force of marketing. The docile lemmings need to be tricked into thinking that newer is better, so they will continue to be a source of profit.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 02:32:50 am
content: It's the technically ignorant who get played like suckers, sold to and fed an annual line of hyperbolic hogwash. There's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING "amazing!!" in some tiny, gold plated sprung metal contacts crammed inside a stupidly tiny space, surrounded by a plastic insulator, surrounded by a sheet metal shell which has the ends dovetailed together and press-fitted together at the junction of the two edges (you'll see the dovetail under a magnifier).Whoop de doo, it's "symmetrical" so stupid lazy consumers who are too clumsy and lazy, don't plug it in the wrong way around. Don't see the issue tbh - when was the last time anyone complained that inserting a polarised mains plug into a wall outlet was "a problem"? The 12th of never is when.Also, wireless charging is made out to be some magical woo woo... it's a flat transformer split across the base and the phone - big deal. What's the issue? People are VERY VERY gullible, and love having "solutions" marketed to them so they can show off down the pub that they've adopted the latest "technology" ... Lol.If these people were mainly engineers, they'd never say a word, for fear of others condemning them for falling for this blatantly transparent bollocks.The highly predicable, tedious annual release of a slew of "best phone everrrrrrrr, EVERRRRRRR!" nonsense has now reached the point of zero innovation (not that there ever was much tbh, imho) - now they're running out of bullshit to ram down people's gullible ears and eyes, they're resorting to... CONNECTORS AND CHARGERS!Seriously? People are thick.

author: ejeffrey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 04:04:37 am
content: For me it's way better than USB micro-B ever was. I've had some cables wear out but I haven't had problems with jacks other than needing to clean pocket lint out of them with a needle (like almost every other connector used on cell phones). With micro-B on cell phones the jacks always became finicky after 1 year and borderline unusable after 2. I know some people have problems with it, but for me it works fine.For the size and # of connectors I am pretty happy with USB-C. Sure, it isn't as robust as a full sized USB-A or USB-B connector, but I don't really see putting that on a cell phone. Laptops could get away with something like that and it would have been nice to have a large version of type-C for applications that could benefit. But then for the most part, my phone gets the most abuse of any device so making a larger more robust connector that only works on desktops and laptops seems kind of pointless.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 04:09:02 am
content: Quote from: eti on September 16, 2020, 06:53:14 amSo I guess you are not one of those Apple fanboys who line up at the Apple store at 5am to be the first to photographed by the paparazzi as your walk out, head held high, after blowing your dough on an overpriced toy.I remember a very competent TV technician friend went a house to fix a TV in the 1980's. He got told off by a customer as he opened a circuit diagram to fault find. The customer said something like, "What sort of mechanic are you when you have to read the instructions? I would rather someone who know what they are doing, thank you very much." My friend simply packed up, walked out, got into his van and drove off without saying a word.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 04:19:53 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on September 17, 2020, 04:09:02 am"So I guess"I'd keep guessing if I were you.So you see me make a comment about how I admire an Apple designed *connector system* (and. I didn't say anything else, lest ye forget), and JUMP to some wild, trolling conclusion and ramble on about my purchase habits, of which you know and always will know, absolutely nothing.I put it to you that you are attempting to bait me or "troll" me, and I respond by chuckling at your impotent provocation, and tell you I'll report you next time, wise acre.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 05:26:46 am
content: All the USB connections that came after MiniUSB are fragile crap.I have replaced so many microUSB connectors in tablets and phones, the connectors insides completely falling apart and such. Have not moved onto USB-C yet to see that.MiniUSB on the other hand is built like a tank. Pretty much all of the MicroUSB connectors i had to repair was the whole connector ripped off the board. The connector was fine and everything, just needed to be soldered back down and it works. So even in harsh use the connectors is stronger than the solder holding it down.But but... what about USB 3.0! 480Mbit is for peasants!Well... MiniUSB also had a 10pin variant invented back in 2013:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_mini-USBIt has enough pins to carry USB 3.0 signals while being the same size as normal MiniUSB and so being backwards compatible with existing normal 5 pin MiniUSB cables. Back then USB 3.0 didn't exist tho so phones mostly used it as a more sleek replacement for the gazilion pin proprietary multi conector that also carries things like analog audio, video or even RS232. But then the crappy flimsy microUSB came around and killed it.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 05:41:29 am
content: good circuits and connectors often do not look good cosmetically, or good physics apparatus. If people see a industrial wiring box with rails and terminal blocks and stuff they think its old and needs to be replaced with a cute tile or fancy 3 dimensional object with miters

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 05:47:43 am
content: Quote from: Berni on September 17, 2020, 05:26:46 amMini USB is the worst garbage out of all of them. Good riddance.QuoteIf it's a good connector with 4 TH mounting points they almost never fail or break off. Connectors with no TH mounting have issues holding on the PCB.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 06:01:30 am
content: Quote from: wraper on September 17, 2020, 05:47:43 amThis , the keyword is "thru hole" mounting, to provide a mechanical strength/anchor points, its hard for certain people to understand this, I guess the USBdesigners.. err .. artists will never learn and realize that, ever.They are artists, what do you expect ?

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 06:13:17 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on September 17, 2020, 06:01:30 amThere are plenty of micro USB connectors with TH. No issue with USB as such. The issue is with people who design their devices with non TH micro USB connectors in them. The same as when full size SMD (non TH) USB A/B connectors are used.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 07:45:21 am
content: Not everyone uses troughhole USB connectors yeah. But even the ones that are troughhole are often just tiny short pins that serve as alignment and don't actually stick out on the other side, seen those get ripped out too.As for MiniUSB reliability i had plenty of devices using it, Including smartphones that got plugged in daily for years (Early ones had terrible battery life.) and have yet to own a MiniUSB device or cable that started making intermittent connection. Maybe im just too gentle with my devices or they happened to have particularly high quality specimens. Sure the rated cycles in MiniUSB connectors are much lower than micro, but i have exceeded the rated cycles on mine and never noticed a problem.In any case given that the PCB can hold on to the connector id say a MiniUSB can handle at least twice or trice as much abusive force of repeated sideways tugging compared to MicroUSB before the connector fails.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 08:58:37 am
content: Quote from: Berni on September 17, 2020, 07:45:21 amThey are not for alignment but for thin PCBs and actually suck for alignment purposes. Most of the devices they are used in have something like 0.8mm PCB, not 1.6mm. Nonetheless, even if you use them on thicker PCB, they are way more robust than non TH connectors. Also you can get connectors with long mounting terminals if you need.

author: julianhigginson
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 01:55:35 pm
content: I don't like the current trend of moving towards USB C only ports on laptops... I think usb A makes a lot more sense for many peripheral connections going forward, and not having any (or just 1) USB A is ridiculous..... But usb C also supports Thunderbolt channels, and, well, that's important nowdays so it's important that they have those too.. just not exclusively, please!For mobile devices I think usb C is great compared to USB micro b. Yeah I've had USB C cables go to crap, but never had an issue with device sockets so far... (Maybe because I've had them for less time? I don't know... ) But I hated the way USB micro B sockets would fail and need replacing... I had a couple of phones that I just decided to replace in the past, just from the USB micro b socket going unreliable... in both cases it took a phone that was oldish and a bit crap, but still useful, into something that was unusable... And then the decision to fix or replace is very hard to make when the phone is also old and maybe other things are going to be a problem soon anyway.... So in effect I've had USB micro b end the lives of a few devices earlier than they really should have ended.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 03:30:08 pm
content: Quote from: julianhigginson on September 17, 2020, 01:55:35 pmUSB A are thick and take a lot of space. They are a limitation for laptop form factor.

author: Clear as mud
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 05:46:25 pm
content: I was about to post a new thread comparing USB-mini-B to USB-micro-B, but I see it's already being discussed!I just wanted to say, manufacturer datasheets typically have a lower insertion cycle count for mini-B than for micro-B, but in the real world, in my experience, mini-B is more reliable than micro-B. The real-world experience seems to be opposite of what the datasheets would suggest. I first became aware of the insertion cycle count from datasheets at least 5 years ago, when typically mini-B had a specified insertion count of 1500, and micro-B had it specified as 10,000. Looking at modern data sheets now, I see the same thing except that some of the mini-B ones now say 5000 instead of 1500.My 20 year old cell phone with mini-B connector still works fine, meanwhile I have repaired quite a few micro-B connectors on other phones. And I'm not the only one who thinks mini-B is more reliable. For example, inthis video, 4:24 through 4:34, the person says he prefers mini-B because it is more reliable and robust. Maybe it's just the through-hole vs. surface-mount issue that was already discussed, but I'm pretty sure I have dealt with micro-USB connectors that became internally loose even while still fastened securely to the PCB.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 06:04:00 pm
content: Quote from: Clear as mud on September 17, 2020, 05:46:25 pmReal world experience at sample size of 1 Versus connector which is orders of magnitude more widespread.Also I guess that mini USB was not used for charging unlike micro USB which were plugged/unplugged daily. A decade ago I worked at mobile phone service center for several years. And I can say that micro USB with good TH mounting simply never failed. Only connectors without TH got sometimes ripped from PCB, often together with pads. Good luck breaking off connector on the picture below.QuoteIt almost never occurs. Mini USB is way worse in this regard.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 06:47:54 pm
content: Okay i admit i only had a sample size of 2 phones that got plugged in daily for years and half a dozen regularly used MiniUSB devices that stayed plugged in most of the time. And the single SMD only MiniUSB i that had ripped off and had to be soldered down again was from a friend that asked me to fix it.I haven't actually broken a microUSB myself. The half a dozen ones that i had to replace was from friends and relatives that broke them. So i have no idea what was it that ultimately broke it, but most of the time the connector had to be completely replaced because it would not make contact, or would only make contact when held at some special angle.Or it might be bias that i find the old Mini has a more mechanically solid feel. Putting sideways forces on a newer Micro connector feels like it bends and gives as you put more force on it, while the Mini feels like it has next to no give to it at all, also seaming to have less wobble and play when wiggled around. Yes the retention force on Mini is pretty poor but i never found it so poor that the connector would just fall out of it, besides the ubiquitous USB-A connector has identical retention force issues yet is still used everywhere.In terms of my phone i moved to using magnetic connectors (via a tiny adapter) because it mates and unmates all by its own when the phone is simply brought close to it. Since i got used to charging the phone overnight every day even tho i don't need to since smartphone battery life has gotten a lot better, but fumbling with plugging in a microUSB was too annoying on a daily basis.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 08:51:12 pm
content: +1 for Micro-USB, a paragon of reliability in our household, using ancient phones that still work perfectly with their Micro USB chargers. One Blackberry Curve is >10 years old and still in daily use - a real fighter, refuses to die!I would say the blackberry gets recharged every 3 days or so (another benefit of older phones, they don't use so much power). So, we are looking at more than 1,000 charging cycles for its Micro USB port... including various accidents tripping over charging cords in its life... and it shows NO signs of wear.

author: Clear as mud
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 10:54:55 pm
content: Point taken about sample size and all that. If general consensus on the forum is that the manufacturer datasheets are correct, and micro-USB is more reliable than mini-USB, I'll go with that.Also, my phone is not as old as I thought.Motorola W385did not go on the market before 2007. The USB port is used for charging, but the initial battery only needed to be charged once every two to three weeks. (I never use the phone very much.) The replacement battery I got must be made out of used cells even though I paid extra for a new-quality one - it only lasts about 3 days.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2020, 11:13:10 pm
content: Quote from: eti on September 17, 2020, 02:32:50 amWell:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30K2hhnV88I&feature=youtu.be&t=216

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2020, 01:34:14 am
content: Rant noted. With all apologies for small sample size, my extended family has a good mixture of Apple, Android and other small electronic products. And have had cable failures in all of them. My observation is that the failure rate is more dependent on the user than on the configuration. With a couple of family members able to generate high failure rates on the "respected" Apple products.If you want a truly reliable connector system go with military or industrial connectors. You will take a substantial size and convenience hit. Those jack screws take time to tighten/loosen. Same for screwing in circular connector shells.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2020, 02:39:44 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on September 18, 2020, 01:34:14 amIt's because apple bent the knee to goddamn stupid Greenpeace activists and doesn't use PVC since 2009. The result is cable insulation splitting after a few months of use which results in tons of e-waste filling landfills.

author: dl6lr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2020, 06:13:20 am
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on September 18, 2020, 01:34:14 amA failing cable is easy to replace, a failing connector on the PCB is not that easy to replace (for the end user). The latter was a major problem with Mini-USB, where the contacts of the "sockets" failed and the cable side stayed OK. One of the design goals of Micro USB was, that the cable "plug" will fail and not the contacts of the PCB side. In my personal view, they reached that goal. A weakness of Micro-USB cables seems to be the rather poor springs that should hold the cable in the socket and that will fail easily, requiring a new cable more often than necessary. I had several cables that will just fall out of the device on minor movements within a year of usage.Quote from: CatalinaWOW on September 18, 2020, 01:34:14 amAnyone remembers the IBM multi port Microchannel cards? They had a multi contact connector and a thick cable (going to the break out box) that stiff, you could use it to push back your truck. A colleague broke the card and the slot it was in by moving his PC, not minding the cable in the back... A more robust connector alone is not a solution for every situation.And I have seen industrial/military grade devices where the user has "successfully contacted" a D-SUB or ribbon connector the wrong way.Do not use force, just grab a bigger hammer...Regards, Bernd

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2020, 11:29:41 am
content: Quote from: wraper on September 18, 2020, 02:39:44 amYou may be right about a weakening of Apple's design. But the differential failure rate applies to different users of the same products. Some people are just hamfisted.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2020, 11:32:27 am
content: Quote from: wraper on September 17, 2020, 11:40:08 pmThis, more than anything, is why I love USB-CI don't care about anything else, just this.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2020, 12:41:36 pm
content: Quote from: dl6lr on September 18, 2020, 06:13:20 amThe old school GPIB parallel cables are also strong enough to be used as spare parts for your local suspension bridge!The downsides of such high quality are: size, weight, and cost!

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 18, 2020, 04:11:52 pm
content: Quote from: CatalinaWOW on September 18, 2020, 11:29:41 amIt's a wide known issue. And I haven't seen it on products from any other company. Cheapest knockoff cables last many times longer in this regard. Before apple silently removed user rating from their website it was around 1 out of 5 stars for their cables.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2020, 04:42:03 pm
content: I love USB-C for power delivery. Previously I had boards which needs to be powered by various voltages (5V, 9V, 12V, so I had to buy different power supplies and remember which one to use when working with a board), now all of them use the same USB-C PD power supply and the board itself chooses the voltage it needs using simple 3$ MCU (STM32G071), and that addition doesn't take all that much space. If you don't require programmability, you can use CYPD3177 which allows setting required voltage with a few resistors, and is about $1.5 for single quantities.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2020, 05:59:51 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on September 18, 2020, 04:11:52 pmEasier than fixing the problem!

author: SiliconWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2020, 06:43:30 pm
content: I think this was discussed in another thread before.The design may not be that robust, but it's not that bad a compromise actually. Can you think of a better design that would fit within the same volume? (Remember it's used in small products such as mobile phones...) If so, I think many people would be interested.Regarding the PCB side, I personally would only consider SMD connectors that have mixed smd and through-hole pins. That's what I used in the only device I designed (so far) with an USB-C connector. They are significantly more stable mechanically-wise.That said, I never had an USB-C connector failure so far with commercial devices, but I have with micro USB.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2020, 09:28:40 pm
content: A lot of the complaints sound like a mismatch of expectations and a lack of comprehending the scope of design tradeoffs that have to happen for consumer electronics.USB is NOT an industrial connector. It is NOT designed to be indestructable at any cost. It's designed to cram a shitload of throughput and an impressive amount of power into the smallest possible space. Small devices that demand tens of watts of power and gigabits of data sell, and so those parameters are worth prioritizing over a certain amount of ruggedness.If you think it's so bad, take a minute to understand the ACTUAL application requirements and then see if you can design something that better meets them.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2020, 09:36:10 pm
content: Quote from: eti on September 17, 2020, 02:32:50 amI don't know about you, but every. single. time. I plug in a rectangular connector I have to look at the connector, look at the socket and see if it's the right way round. Whether it's a micro B, full size A, or DP, or even a ribbon cable. Oftentimes it's in low light or sometimes in a place I can't see. You don't have to be a woo woo visionary to see that if you can solve that problem by designing a connector with 180d symmetry the life-time cumulative ease of use improvement is HUGE. Calling "cOnSuMeRs" stupid and lazy isn't the sign of an engineering genius it's the sign of a dick.Quoteno u

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2020, 11:12:49 pm
content: Quote from: ajb on September 19, 2020, 09:36:10 pm?

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2020, 12:37:07 am
content: Quote from: ajb on September 19, 2020, 09:36:10 pmAre you talking about the US mains plug that has one blade larger than the other, so it only goes in one way even though there are only two prongs on it?

author: Kasper
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2020, 04:47:59 am
content: I use magnetic usb adapters, they work great. Had one in my phone for a few years before the housing broke when I dropped it. That was easy fix, unplug it and plug in a spare one.

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2020, 08:56:33 am
content: Quote from: Kasper on September 20, 2020, 04:47:59 amYep that is one of the things i found with these magnetic USB adapters. The housing is essentially made from a magnet and as most strong magnets its as brittle as glass, so when you drop the phone and it happens to land on the connector the thing just breaks into pieces. But then again the whole cable only costs a few dollars from china, so no big deal. Buy another one and just swap it.One issue a lot of these have tho is the contacts are fairly exposed, combined with the fact that they are magnetic makes them love to jump at any magnetic object. And given that most ferromagnetic things are also conductive (Such as keys) means that the pins get shorted. Tho most ports seam to handle pretty much any possible short (Even 5V into data lines) so its not that big of a practical problem, but it is pretty cringy when it happens.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2020, 03:02:11 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on September 17, 2020, 01:18:37 amYou are right that those are words, and that there are two of them. But that’s where your correctness ends, since 99.9% of claims of planned obsolescence aren’t actually planned. Obsolescence due to technological progress isn’t the same thing asplannedobsolescence. USB-C was created to solve multiple real-world complaints and limitations of prior USB ports. Now, I don’t think it actually succeeded all that well in solving most of them (other than being easier to insert since it’s rotationally symmetrical), but that’s not the point.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2020, 10:52:06 pm
content: Many recent standards have been mechanically horrid; SATA and HDMI both lack positive retention. With HDMI this might be considered a feature in an environment where the cord is likely to be pulled but I prefer that it not fall out of the back of my computer, which has happened several times.Because of the fragility of the connector, the USB-C charging standard makes wireless charging look good.On my camera, I have started transferring photos directly from the SD card because of fear that the mini-USB connector will be damaged through normal use. I trust the SD card connector inside the camera more than the external mini-USB connector.

author: peter-h
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2020, 08:26:22 am
content: This is why cameras should support fast wifi but for some reason they don't... Also very much agree that USB-C insertion force is way too high and drives the wireless charging solution for phones. Especially in car holders, where if you push the phone hard enough to mate the USB-C you will pull the holder off its mountingI agree re PTH connectors being more robust but the problem is that phones use thin PCBs - probably 0.8mm - and that will just break off if the connector doesn't get ripped out of it.The correct solution is to secure the connector to the case moulding so it can't move. This is being done implicitly by e.g. Samsung whose recent phones are waterproof. Obviously they have to have the connector tightly gripped by the case moulding (integral to the case moulding actually) for that to work.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2020, 09:07:58 am
content: Quote from: peter-h on September 21, 2020, 08:26:22 amI would like IrDA even more, but WiFi would be sufficient if I could get it for the right camera. Selection is very poor and the options I have considered apparently only support uploading to the Cloud which is stupid. The Cloud is a term for a server controlled by someone else.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2020, 12:58:53 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on September 20, 2020, 10:52:06 pmYou're right about HDMI, but SATA is fine - not only are locking cables readily available,it was designed as a backplane interface. Everyone is simply using it wrong.As far as USB-C goes, I have no idea what people are going on about with high insertion force - my experience is that it's lower than micro while retaining well. Nor has any fragility been a concern. But I'm not in the group of people who go through cables and ports every year or two..

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2020, 04:15:26 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on September 20, 2020, 10:52:06 pmSATA is a standard for a connector overwhelmingly (99.9+% I'd estimate) used inside of an enclosure. How much positive retention does it need?(Secondarily, I have SATA cables with a spring-retention lock that works pretty well and works across a wide variety of motherboards and drives, so I wonder if it is actually part of the standard and is merely optional.)

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2020, 11:32:42 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on September 21, 2020, 04:15:26 pmYeah, you're right - I mean why even bother with a connector shell, just rest the gold contacts on top of one another and wrap some gaffer tape round it- okay I am being facetious, but as much as you try to defend SATA connector design, it's ABSOLUTELY DIRE, and well we know it.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2020, 03:42:20 am
content: Quote from: eti on September 21, 2020, 11:32:42 pmIt's onlyyouruneducated opinion.

author: CatalinaWOW
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2020, 04:04:27 am
content: Quote from: eti on September 21, 2020, 11:32:42 pmPerhaps if you had failure rate data to support your opinion. I have only had minor problems with SATA cables, and those minor problems were difficulty in disconnecting. Retention was too good. Never had a data failure or cable failure. Even though I use a mix of cables provided by mother board suppliers, disk suppliers and the cheapest ones I can find for sale. But it is a small sample, and only covers about a decade.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2020, 04:34:11 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on September 21, 2020, 04:15:26 pmShould be 100%, since the external version (eSATA) is a different connector!

author: Berni
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2020, 05:14:02 am
content: Id say SATA is a pretty good connector.Pretty much all the cables i used had plenty enough retention force to not come out without actually grabbing the connector and pulling it off. I actually hate the SATA cables with the metal locking tabs installed since they can sometimes become pretty tricky to unplug when the cable is plugged into a motherboard with the SATA ports all packed together tightly or at a weird spot where stuff is in the way, making it difficult getting your hand in there to grip it properly to release the tab.The only critique perhaps is that the connector can be a bit fragile at times due to it being all plastic. I had broke one or two SATA power connectors before while working in a tightly packed PC case and happened to accidentally snag on one of the power cables, resulting in the plastic connector on the end of that cable to split in half and fall out. It still worked, but the top and bottom half needed to be squeezed together for it to make contact and not just fall out of its mating connector. Sure i was the one being the clumsy idiot who put too much force on it, but pretty much every other connector used inside a PC would have easily survived at least twice as much force.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2020, 11:44:05 am
content: Quote from: tooki on September 22, 2020, 04:34:11 amAgreed, but have younever(or less than one time in a thousand) used a SATA connector with the case open and maybe with one of the drives not permanently mounted? I've averaged doing that at least once a year to upgrade a drive or otherwise while assembling/servicing a computer.Many/most computer users will never do that. Enthusiasts and IT techs will do that far more often, so it's a use case that should be considered but probably not entirely optimized for or designed around as the primary use case.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2020, 02:14:40 pm
content: Just had an idea:You can easily mod you USB-C connectors yourself.First glue a small piece of steel to your laptop, phone or whatever your USB device is. Put 2 pieces of steel opposite to the connector. Up & Down, left & right.Then, put a bit of vaseline or gease on the pieces of steel and the plastic around it.Then: Put the cable into your device, and put a Neodymium magnet on each piece of steel.Last: Glue the magnets to the cable, and let dry before removing.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 22, 2020, 03:17:55 pm
content: ^Hopefully this is a joke.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2020, 03:55:53 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on September 22, 2020, 02:14:40 pmShould that is the route I have to choose, with all that troubles, then I will do it "properly" by modding the whole thing into a real man connector, such as my Tempest keyboard connector below which basically an USB keyboard.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2020, 02:32:30 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on September 21, 2020, 12:58:53 pmThat is right; SATA connectors were designed for a backplane interface which did not require positive retention, so it was not included. But they adopted it for other applications for which it was not designed properly.If there was not a problem, then why did they add the retention clip later? See below.Quote from: sokoloff on September 21, 2020, 04:15:26 pmThe majority is not always right, or even sane, unless you are a Puppeteer. Obscure?QuoteThe spring retention mechanism was added later after it was realized that the design was flawed. None of the oldest products which used SATA supported it, and I have some old motherboards and a pair of drives to demonstrate it.Quote from: CatalinaWOW on September 22, 2020, 04:04:27 amFor a given operating time, I have had way more SATA connectors separate than IDC connectors. With IDC connectors you have to struggle to separate them without damaging the cable.

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2020, 10:33:51 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on September 23, 2020, 02:32:30 amOn one hand, reference to oldish SF might be missed by many.On the other hand, the few to catch it will be pleased.On the gripping hand, it was not that obscure

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 27, 2020, 11:09:15 am
content: Quote from: ajb on September 19, 2020, 09:36:10 pmReversible micro usb cablehttps://www.scorptec.com.au/product/Cables/USB/63777-U2MCAB-02RR

author: newbrain
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 27, 2020, 02:19:13 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 27, 2020, 11:09:15 amEstimated connector life: 15 insertions (total, both ends), if you are a lucky person.Guess how I know.

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2020, 08:56:03 pm
content: This connector madness is driven by this non sense of making paper thin devices.Who needs a 8 mm thick phone that you can barely hold becuase ia so slippery? After all we all throw a rubberized case. I would prefer a 12-15mm thick phone with a larger battery and space for a hugged connector.Its a shame cat phones are so outaded in hw specs and expensives

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2020, 10:32:22 pm
content: Quote from: rvalente on September 28, 2020, 08:56:03 pmExactly. What "need" is served by a diminutive thickness? None. My (crap) Moto G7 Plus could be 2x as thick as it is now (with a Spigen rubber case on) and I wouldn't care a toss.

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2020, 10:38:51 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 27, 2020, 11:09:15 amSure, if it's possible to design a compatible reversible connector without having to remove so much material to defeat the keying that it's no longer durable enough for use, that's an okay solution. But it would be better to design reversibility into the connector from the ground up.Quote from: rvalente on September 28, 2020, 08:56:03 pmSure, YOU would prefer a thicker phone, but that's clearly not what the overall market wants. If it did, then we might see more and better phones similar to the Cat branded ones. Whether or not the market is "wrong" about that is a silly thing to worry about, and calling consumers stupid for having different priorities than you do, as some in this thread are doing, is arrogant to the point of dickishness. People like phones that fit easily in a pocket and have reversible connectors, and there's nothing wrong with that even if those aren't your top priorities in a mobile device.Quote from: eti on September 28, 2020, 10:32:22 pmDo you not carry your phone around? Do you never put it in a pocket? Because fitting in a pocket (or handbag or whatever) is a "need" that the vast majority of people who use smartphones have, and diminutive thickness absolutely serves that.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2020, 11:14:44 pm
content: Quote from: ajb on September 28, 2020, 10:38:51 pm"The market" doesn't know what it "wants", it gets TOLD "this is what we've decided, and you will enjoy it" and people dutifully follow, despite the sensationalist, provocative "outcry!" when a new design is announced.OEM HQ decides that's what's being released, and that is that - don't delude yourself into thinking the consumer has a "choice" - the only choice they have is:~ Thin~ Razor thin~ Mega, MEGA, 1 micron thinSince "smart" phone mfrs ran out of features to sell you, all they have left to promote is plugs and sockets, wireless accessories and physical thickness!

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2020, 11:22:55 pm
content: I will call thin and raise you "no bezel". So now I cannot hold the phone without covering part of the screen, or even triggering touch, and there is no room at the top and bottom for speakers and microphones so the sound is worse.

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2020, 11:34:59 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on September 28, 2020, 11:22:55 pmBut it's "progress" (which, funnily, wasn't even mentioned or even slightly obsessed over until the "command signal" from consumer tech giant HQ was beamed out, via KeyNote, over the years) - show's how easily sold people are!

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 28, 2020, 11:40:52 pm
content: My iPhone X is nicer than the iPhone 8 is nicer than the iPhone 6 is nicer than the iPhone 5 is much nicer than the iPhone 3GS that each replaced.When cutting the grass I miss the headphone jack slightly (but have a cheap Bluetooth headset that works well enough).Do I ever wish my phone was slower, thicker, heavier, or had a keyed charging connector? Not for a minute.I'm glad that Apple keeps releasing new models so frequently. That lets me buy a nearly-new phone secondhand for significantly less than the newest model, use an inexpensive mobile provider (ting.com), and still enjoy a good phone experience.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2020, 12:33:13 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on September 28, 2020, 11:40:52 pmting.com looks incredibly cheap... What happens if you travel outside the USA, though?

author: eti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2020, 12:45:56 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on September 28, 2020, 11:40:52 pmIf Apple never released a "better" model, ergo no one ever knew about it, we'd all be contented, and none the wiser. This is a cycle of utter madness, and the difference is some can admit it and some just refuse to. This whole manufactured, highly contrived "upgrade" nonsense is precisely that. No one needs a new phone until the "old" one has worn into the ground. More consumerism "justified" by "reasons" people make up to convince themselves, and others, they "need it"

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2020, 12:54:28 am
content: Quote from: eti on September 29, 2020, 12:45:56 amYou mean, like EEs "need" cool test equipment?

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2020, 01:44:10 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on September 29, 2020, 12:33:13 am(Before March,) I travel a lot for work. ting.com service works outside the US, but is relatively expensive, so I SIM-swap for trips. (That also keeps "clean" the bill to the company and the bill to me.)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 29, 2020, 02:00:18 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 27, 2020, 11:09:15 amThat micro USB plug is very nice, especially considering that many micro USB sockets have metal backing on a piece holding contacts. USB host will be very thankful for shorting all of its pins. Which in many cases can kill chipset or CPU depending from where USB lines came.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2020, 09:14:21 pm
content: Quote from: eti on September 28, 2020, 11:34:59 pmPart of marketing is creating need where none exists.Quote from: sokoloff on September 28, 2020, 11:40:52 pmWould you trade a smaller iPhone for one with several times the operating time and battery life, better speakers, a better microphone, and better cameras?The opportunity cost of thinner iPhones is worse operating time and battery life, worse speakers, a worse microphone, and worse cameras.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2020, 09:27:47 pm
content: I've modded my Android smart phone with a much larger battery - I'm happy to pay the 2x thickness in return for the 5 day charging interval!

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2020, 09:29:33 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 27, 2020, 11:09:15 amI've just ordered a couple of reversible USB cables (not the ones linked, though). I found some where both ends are reversible. Will be interesting to see how well that works. I'm thinking it might be good in the car, instead of fumbling with the "non reversible" connectors.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 29, 2020, 11:09:16 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on September 29, 2020, 09:14:21 pmThe battery already lasts me almost two days of typical use between charging and I don't have any personal use for better speakers or microphone on my phone. A better camera would always be welcome, but the camera in the XS Max is pretty damn good already. So a camera improvement would be welcome, but since I wouldn't pay even $100 extra if there existed a phone that was otherwise identical but had a 50% better camera, it's not a big driver for me. I wouldn't pay even $10 more for a 50% better battery, speakers, or microphone.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2020, 10:24:55 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on September 29, 2020, 09:14:21 pmIn theory, yes. But some of those can be overcome to an extent by clever engineering. Apple manages to coax surprisingly good sound out of the microphone arrays in the iPhones, for example. (Far, far better than other smartphones.) Similarly, the cameras are very good for their thickness.I do understand what you mean, though, in that some things are limited by physics. But a poorly implemented large design can still be much worse than a really skilled implementation of the small design. (Like how a typical tape recorder’s internal microphone sucked, even though they had the space to construct an optimized acoustic design to get more out of those microphone capsules.)Anyhow, if Apple decided to release an iPhone model that’s twice as thick as the current ones, but with 3-4x the battery life, I’d jump on that in a heartbeat. (That’d be about the thickness of the original 2007 iPhone, which I think felt better in the hand than any model since, since it had enough girth to allow a comfortable grip.)

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2020, 01:36:53 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on September 30, 2020, 10:24:55 amExactly - the current phones are simply thinner than they need to be... one parameter has been over-optimized to the point where it is almost becoming a negative, to the exclusion of all else. Fashion and marketing driven, just like tail fins on cars in the 50's, and hopefully the latest fad will suffer the same fate eventually!