Power Co Conspiracy - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 08:08:01 pm
content: The electric meter on my house because:1. It can turn off the juice to my house remotely by using a wireless device. If you are away and it was turned off in your absence, there is a re connection fee. When this happens they do it late Friday afternoon and can´t come back until Monday.2. The device thats used to turn it off is also given to all emergency services including the police. If thats not enough, the power company will charge you a re-connection fee to turn on the power when the cops turn it off to raid your house because of an unpaid parking ticket.PS There is nothing more annoying then having your power cut. Worse than water, internet, gas or telephone. Governments and public companies know this so they allow the power co to do this with upmost ease and at your expense. This is all done in the guise of public interest.Cheers,

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 08:11:39 pm
content: Aside from non-payment (natural disaster, fire etc), why would they shut your power off?

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 11:28:47 pm
content: This is a problem especially if its wireless. This means that someone could listen in on the device and use it to mess with peoples electricity supply. Just like how modern cars are vulnerable to this as well, the wireless signal from key is captured and repeated, the computerised key fob defeated with a bit of programming and generic unprogrammed key fob.Just like with ISPs and their remote access into your router, someone else may know the password/backdoor and hijack your internet or listen and get all your private information such as banking and access to your accounts like email and various other things. The famous problem with a router like the d-link dir 615, its one of the reasons why i always discourage dlink aside from their poor firmware and hardware quality but also their practices as a company (they gave away their firmware keys).

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 11:33:30 pm
content: Suppose you forget to pay your bill?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 11:34:55 pm
content: Quote from: joseph nicholas on September 02, 2016, 11:33:30 pmThen you suffer the consequences?

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2016, 11:56:41 pm
content: Suppose your on a respirator?

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 12:04:39 am
content: Quote from: joseph nicholas on September 02, 2016, 11:56:41 pm... then you shouldn't rely on the grid for power for it?Good grief.

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 12:54:44 am
content: Here in NZ there were a few years back one or two fatalities because of power loss (respirator), at least one was a disconnection.Consequently to that a quite rigorous set of guidelines and requirements were created that the electricity retailers have to follow - "Medically Dependant Consumers", the most important paragraph is...“any consumer who is dependent on electricity for critical medical support will not be disconnected for reasons of non-payment”obviously you can't just ring up your electricity retailer (for clarity here in NZ we have a number of electricity retailers which handle the supply to the consumers) and say "I'm medically dependant", if you are issued with the qualifying medical equipment you will be given an MDC notice which you can submit to the electricity retailer.http://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/environmental-health/medically-dependent-consumers-electricityhttp://www.ea.govt.nz/operations/retail/retailers/retailer-obligations/medically-dependant-and-vulnerable-customers/

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 01:49:01 am
content: when they disconnect your power for non payment it would be harder to pay since you need electricity to power your phone/laptop/PC and your networking gear in order to get online and pay or to find the phone number to call them up and pay.Which is why it is a dumb idea to disconnect on non payment unless it has been a month or 2 with many notices given.

author: station240
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 03:24:58 am
content: Wow and I thought my power company sucks.So find out what frequency is used and jam it. Naturally a very low power transmitter, and only turn it on when needed (Friday afternoon).An evil person would use a high power transmitter, wired to a car battery, in some hard to access location.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 05:11:29 am
content: Quote from: System Error Message on September 02, 2016, 11:28:47 pmPossible, but unlikely unless you had the same radio. These meters are usually on the ISM band using FHSS with encryption. It is not impossible to attack the meters over RF, but it is certainly more challenging and expensive than a typical internet-based attack.

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 07:59:19 am
content: When this happened to me I came to the conclusion that:1. Legislation was needed to prevent the power co from disconnecting you without some kind of due process.2. It was necessary to physically prevent them from removing their meter without your consent. Then, they couldn´t roll up in the middle of the night without warning and remove the meter entirely. After all, if you paid your bill the same day they cut you off but didn´t turn you back on then they couldn´t demand you give them physical access to the meter. Yes I know this is extreme but it could happen when your dealing with a big bureaucracy.3. You need a flashlight a bunch of candles.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 08:02:22 am
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on September 02, 2016, 08:11:39 pmStart with a cockup in the billing department, or someone mistranscribes a number, or a malicious employee, or state-sponsored hacking....

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 03:42:49 pm
content: Easy solution, replace the meter, make sure it still gives the readings wirelessly/remotely like the old one but without the ability to be shut off. They will never know.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 04:09:46 pm
content: They'll know, I'm pretty sure if you tamper with it an alarm signal will be sent. I was thinking jam it, but how would you jam the receiving but not the transmitting. It's obviously a mobile signal of some sort, maybe it can be rerouted through a mobile router that blocks receiving?

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 04:11:58 pm
content: Quote from: System Error Message on September 03, 2016, 03:42:49 pmThe meter has a security tag in its collar. Cutting the tag will give the power company cause to believe you are stealing power. The tag has a date code so will asses you a hefty fine. Bad idea.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 04:52:41 pm
content: Quote from: joseph nicholas on September 03, 2016, 04:11:58 pmThey'll know long before they see that. There's likely an anti-tamper micro switch on the cover that has to be deactivated before servicing. Opening it up and triggering it is illegal.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 04:57:18 pm
content: There is no micro/tamper switch in the meter base/box, you can buy these at your local Menards/Lowes/etc, take a look inside one next time your there.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 05:01:38 pm
content: Quote from: joseph nicholas on September 03, 2016, 07:59:19 amI'm not sure if it's a local law, or a Duke Energy (the local utility where I live) policy, but they will not disconnect service in the dead of winter cold.I'm also pretty darn sure, at least for Duke, it takes a couple months of non payment before they would yank the meter anyhow.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 05:12:59 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on September 03, 2016, 04:57:18 pmIt's not supplied with the box.They put it in there when they install the smart meter.https://www.metering.com/smart-meters-how-to-make-anti-tamper-switches-eco-and-safe/

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 05:29:20 pm
content: Quote from: Cyberdragon on September 03, 2016, 05:12:59 pmAre you assuming smart meters are everywhere? The OP is in Mexico, and the vast majority of the US doesn't have them either. I've never seen one and have done residential work in Indiana, Illinois, Florida and Missouri.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 05:33:01 pm
content: Quote from: joseph nicholas on September 02, 2016, 08:08:01 pmThat's a very common problem. ;-)Seriously, an easy remote disconnection reduces their incentive to warn you about a disconnection.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 05:36:43 pm
content: I think to further this discussion we need to know what happened and why.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 05:38:17 pm
content: Oh, they gave you fair warning. A public notice in the bottom drawer of a locked filing cabinet, stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard".

author: Srbel
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 06:32:35 pm
content: In my country, it would take a few months and a few letters from the electric company until they would finally, if I don't pay the bill by then, cut the power. Power company is of course state owned.Cutting your power just by "flipping the switch" (without any warnings) sounds illegal to me.

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 06:35:38 pm
content: people screw up, regardless if its company, politics, military. With this they can screw up and you suffer.hence why this is terrible. So tampering is a good idea to prevent that forced eviction. If you tamper with it you want it to look the same and function the same except for that remote kill switch.If it uses data/cell than using a jammer is even more illegal to prevent kill switch as you wont have any mobile coverage either. Using a jammer to tamper with it is one way is better as its only temporary.Not everyone can afford to buy a 3kW or higher generator, some solar and some batteries, especially if you live in flats/apartments.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 06:53:01 pm
content: I'm not sure I follow, are you advocating theft?Anyhow, 3 years ago I installed a 31 SEER Heatpump/AC system, up from my original 10 SEER unit. Last year, due to the noticeably lower power utilization Duke dispatched an instrumentation tech to "calibrate" my meter.They basically had a suspicions and wanted to check it out.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 07:13:00 pm
content: First World Problems, here we are very sure that power is not a guaranteed service, as it goes out so regularly from various things. Copper theft, failed maintenance ( or to be more correct no maintenance), cars hitting the poles or transformers, Eskom having wet coal ( yes it really happened) or simply lack of capacity and industrial action.So, most people have either backup power, solar panels or gensets to make do when the supply is out.But, having a mess up from the supplier is depressingly common, they mess up in so many ways, not having captured the info correctly, wrong data in the system, wrong data when changing systems, incorrectly doing estimates, not sending bills ( they forgot to pay the post office for a few months), wrong labelling of invoices, changing cut off dates for billing to earlier without notice, wrong banking detaild for direct debit, wrong amounts debited and any number of other things. Had many of them happen to me.

author: Cyberdragon
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 07:27:40 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on September 03, 2016, 07:13:00 pmA mess you say? Like this?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2016, 07:49:37 pm
content: QuoteYour own experience would suggest that cutting power is a pretty good motivator for prompt payment.It is a little disgusting to see people trying to justify stealing other people's properties.QuoteDon't worry about it. The United States of Mexico will be here soon enough,

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 04:01:20 am
content: Quote from: System Error Message on September 03, 2016, 03:42:49 pmThere is a tamper detect mechanism in a RF meter.Quote from: dr.diesel on September 03, 2016, 04:57:18 pmNot in the electrical box. The meter.One of the major purposes of a wireless meter is to detect power theft. Could the mechanism be defeated? Certainly. But unless one actually has a spare meter - which the manufacturer will not sell you because you are not a utility - it's going to be a tough job figuring out what is required to defeat the anti tamper mechanism.And even if you manage to hack your meter, there's still one small problem: all the other meters on your feeder that are reporting back to the utility. It's pretty simple to add all the kilowatt hours and kVars up and figure out that somewhere along the feeder, something isn't right.Damn you, Kirchhoff!

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 12:10:23 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on September 04, 2016, 04:01:20 amI think this is only partially true. The #1 reason is probably to automate the monthly meter readers. This process is kinda funny, at least at my house as I have two meters, but only one that is wired. Meter reader turnover is very high, I have a new reader almost every month, any the most visible meter is the one that isn't active so they get confused since it reads 00000 and just leave. Then a week or so later the boss man comes out, he's always the same guy, shrugs and kinda chuckles when he sees me. I've even had one of the guys a few years ago fall in my pond.Aside from that real time data collection, which I'm quite sure their motivation is real time price tiering, like they already do on the west coast here in the states.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 12:21:53 pm
content: Something else worthy of discussion might be the various types of meters, at least 3 main types that I know of:- Dumb analog glass bodied meters. These are still installed here today.- Dumb meter with digital display.- Smart meters and smart meters with RF/Power line communication. These likely have some sort of tamper detection.When I installed my solar array, Duke came out to ensure I still had a dumb analog meter as the dumb digital display units were not cable of running backwards.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 12:36:21 pm
content: Giving control to emergency services seems reasonable. In case of fire or a hostage situation they might need the control over power. As far as legality of shutting your power off goes I don't see anything weird about that. If you don't pay your bill you don't get the power, it's pretty simple.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 12:42:50 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on September 04, 2016, 12:36:21 pmFire crews here do it all the time, cut the tag and yank the meter.Also of note, on the analog side these are not bolted in, just friction stabs, the meter itself just pulls out once you cut the tag and lift the cover.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 12:50:32 pm
content: Quote from: Muxr on September 04, 2016, 12:36:21 pmIt's not that simple, for example if you didn't get the monthly invoice.

author: Muxr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 01:08:08 pm
content: Quote from: zapta on September 04, 2016, 12:50:32 pmThere is probably a grace period.. most power co.s have it. Also in this day and age with auto bill pay systems, it shouldn't be an issue. In 20 something years I've been paying my own power bills I've never had my power shut off, and I am really not that great about opening my mail and checking invoices. In fact I always forget to pay my HOA fees.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 02:02:55 pm
content: Quote from: LabSpokane on September 03, 2016, 05:11:29 amEhm ... Don't under-estimate people's stupidity and the penchant for security through obscurity. These meters haven't been attacked en masse only because they are still fairly rare. Once they get deployed on a more massive scale, I am pretty sure that we will get to see pranksters in a parking lot shutting off power for an entire block.Quote from: Muxr on September 04, 2016, 12:36:21 pmIsn't that what a main cut-off switch/breaker is for? Why to yank out a meter? Sounds like a bit crazy solution to me. I have seen that done only when the utility wanted to permanently disconnect someone (e.g. for electricity theft) - then they take the meter away.Quote from: System Error Message on September 03, 2016, 03:42:49 pmOh really? The meter has a numbered seal/tag that you need to break to remove it, so it will be evident the next time the utility comes to check on it. Then you get sued.Also, the meter is usuallynotyour property but the property of the utility (your wiring starts onlyafterthe meter), so you would be committing theft too.And then there are also details like the unique ID of the meter which will not match whatever is registered in the central database and will trigger a red flag/malfunction alert for your property even if you somehow manage to avoid tripping the anti-tamper switches.So good luck with that plan

author: Cerebus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 02:24:36 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on September 03, 2016, 05:07:30 pmTry googling "swatting". In the US it is quite possible to get a full-on military-style armed raid of your house when you've done nothing wrong. And if you think the cops will pay for their mistakes, literally or figuratively, you're very very naive.

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 02:42:55 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on September 04, 2016, 12:42:50 pm

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 02:47:02 pm
content: Quote from: joseph nicholas on September 04, 2016, 02:42:55 pmI fixed your message, as I did not say the above.

author: LabSpokane
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 03:11:07 pm
content: Quote from: janoc on September 04, 2016, 02:02:55 pmThere are multiple versions of meters. Some have remote disconnect. Others do not.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 05:11:39 pm
content: Quote from: joseph nicholas on September 04, 2016, 02:42:55 pmWhich is entirely your own fault.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 05:18:03 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on September 04, 2016, 12:21:53 pmOn some of the digital meters that I've seen, there are two numbers displayed in succession: one positive, one negative. To support feed-in tariffs different (lower) than the consumer rate.They also all have an optical port that you can use to communicate with the meter.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 05:39:12 pm
content: Scary to think that even cops would have access to it. I guess smart meter or not, if there's something you rely on 100% of the time it's best to have good backup power for it anyway.

author: FlyingHacker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 06:06:24 pm
content: Quote from: dr.diesel on September 03, 2016, 05:29:20 pmMy house in Missouri, powered by Ameren Missouri, does indeed have a smart meter. They installed them years ago, at least five, perhaps more years ago.No problems at all. They now know when my power is out due to storms, etc. without my having to call. It is updated within a minute of going up or down.They also make it pretty clear before they disconnect your power. When I was younger I used to pay them about every other month due to oversight. I never had a disconnect. You get a special red bill if you are over 30days late, and then they give you at least 30days from that.

author: FlyingHacker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 06:12:27 pm
content: Many fire fighters pull the electric meter to shit off power when suppressing fires. Different fire companies have different procedures. Some always do. Some never do. Some wait for utility personell, etc.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 06:18:03 pm
content: I'd guess the new smart meters are a sealed black box, potted even perhaps.I wonder what kind of fancy sniffing tech hides inside? (Though I'm not personally a very private person and already know and accept I'm constantly spied on in numerous ways)

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 06:19:42 pm
content: Smart meters are everywhere here, at least in my city, not sure about all of Ontario/Canada. What's funny is that a few months before they introduced the meters, they sent this free package to monitor your energy usage, it was a device that you put on your meter and it detects every time the wheel does a rotation. Based on that it knew how much power you're using and had a digital display in the house. Was actually kind of neat. Then they came and replaced all the meters with the digital ones and reinstalled the device on the new meterOf course it did not work.Now we can login to check our usage though but it's delayed by a few hours. It's crossed my mind to setup some kind of monitoring using CTs at the panel, and just never got around to it. Would make an interesting project. Maybe even small CTs for each circuit.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 06:27:05 pm
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on September 04, 2016, 06:19:42 pmI'm sure they are in the works here for just about anyone in cell tower range, won't be long.

author: FlyingHacker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 09:20:06 pm
content: Our smart meters send a signal over the power line itself. They do not require a cell signal or any wireless signal.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 11:02:25 pm
content: QuoteWhy do you have to spoil the party?people should have the right to live in a fantasy of their own making.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 04, 2016, 11:40:24 pm
content: Quote from: FlyingHackerActually, they tried that here but it was a failure, just too much line noise and attenuation / inteference at transformers. I believe they had a large part ofTasmania set up as a trial as well. In that case, they tried to add Internet data as well, but that didn't go well.In an ideal world, smart meters are awesome, I log onto mine often. Some providers go down to 30min. There are 3rd party add-ons that will replace yourcircuit breakers and split the data up into each circuit. You cam also have coded power points for each device. All available.The concept is great, BUT unfortunately, the power providers THEMSELVES don't want it. It was only the intervention by the minor parties here that stoppedthe suppliers original purpose of having complete control and NOT allowing any user data access. That delayed it here for over 3 years.There are rumours that with privatisation, suppliers are goint to take them out and put back older manual systems. Victoria OZ is nearly 100% smart meters.Luckily NHP has released (looking for info) a user installable version, others to follow. So, no need to make your own. Watch this space :-)

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2016, 12:43:38 am
content: Quote from: FlyingHacker on September 04, 2016, 09:20:06 pmThat was tried and failed here as well.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 05, 2016, 01:29:06 am
content: Forgot to add: The biggest killer of doing anything over power lines is Solar Panels Feed to Grid !! These things pump out a heck of a lot of cr@p.You only need 2-3 in a street to pretty much make it unusable.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2016, 01:55:51 am
content: Yup, it's these harmonics (lower PF) that kill PLC, and as PV becomes more economical I don't see this getting much better.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2016, 03:56:13 am
content: Quote from: digsys on September 05, 2016, 01:29:06 amAren't they required to comply with FCC rules regarding conducted EMI? Or are you talking about the ones that have their own PLC system or the cheap eBay specials that aren't compliant?Having worked with Homeplug, I have found that good quality switching PSUs have little or no effect on performance. A few really cheap wall warts did significantly reduce performance.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 05, 2016, 06:36:26 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMikeI have a friend who roams the streets in a specially made vehicle looking for excessive emi emissions, similar to the ones looking for "transmitters" that upsetmobile towers (been sprung on that one). Usually, nowadays it's mostly complaints related, but they do spot checks if they see large Solar panel installs.Even the best inverters push "some" noise back into the grid, and it all adds up. Often however, it is from people "tweaking" their inverter to go in at a highervoltage, and therefore being 1-up on their neighbor. He's found tweaks as high as 270VAC+ Then we get to the "not so compliant" installs, a whole new story.The bottom line is - you are NOT going to stop it happening, and policing it real-time is not going to happen. So, if you RELY on it, be prepared for days / weeks etcof bad / no service, until they have enough complaints, and can send people out to find the culprit.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2016, 08:33:35 am
content: Quote from: digsys on September 05, 2016, 01:29:06 amI wouldn't have thought that would be a problem for smart meters using PLC. The meter doesn't have to continuously provide readings back to the power company. It can do it periodically and solar panels won't be a problem if it's done at night.My new house has a smart meter. I haven't looked into how it works. PLC sounds sensible for short distances, just back to the local transformer, then it can be sent via the phone line or 3G. The electricity meter only needs to be read every couple of months and the power company could keep asking the meter for a reading, until the data successfully gets through.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2016, 11:02:21 am
content: QuoteRF stalking? EMI stalking?sounds creepy.

author: 3db
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 05, 2016, 11:51:59 am
content: Quote from: System Error Message on September 03, 2016, 03:42:49 pmThat would be illegal in the UK.

author: digsys
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 06, 2016, 01:57:52 pm
content: This may be of interest to some -www.nhp.com.au/files/editor_upload/File/Brochures/Metering/NEMCSC.pdfDo your own monitoring

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2016, 02:43:18 pm
content: it would be illegal but with some research and camo you could do it without getting caught, like using the same case and display components and same signals (but without the kill switch)

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2016, 02:44:49 pm
content: Quote from: joseph nicholas on September 02, 2016, 11:56:41 pmThen, in the UK at least, there is no way they'd cut your power and even then you'd have a battery backup which alerts the power company if it was done maliciously.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2016, 02:49:05 pm
content: Can't you block or jam the meter's RF reception?Presumably 'smart meters' (dumb idea) contain a processor. If the circuitry gets static zapped (all of it, or maybe just the RF receiver), does the meter still leave the power connected? If so, and since you have physical access to the meter, it can't be _too_ hard to help the circuitry to mysteriously die.

author: ruffy91
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2016, 02:51:44 pm
content: Smart Meters are useful for load shedding. Also they allow other tarif systems with off-peak energy prices.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2016, 03:56:21 pm
content: Quote from: ruffy91 on September 06, 2016, 02:51:44 pmPlease explain the circumstances and configuration necessary for that in a domestic setting.QuoteAgreed.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2016, 04:46:43 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 06, 2016, 03:56:21 pmIt only works if it also communicates with smart appliances, for example, air conditioner compressors. The idea is that the customer programs their smart appliances to shut down when the real-time energy price exceeds a threshold, and the smart meter provides the price information.Since that level of sophistication doesn't exist yet (afaik), there is a simpler approach; it's installed currently and working where I live. In exchange for a fixed rebate, the customer installs a remote power cut-off on their appliance (air conditioner or whatever) which the utility can use to remotely kill the appliance if they desire load shedding. The power meter is not needed to be involved.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2016, 04:56:50 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 06, 2016, 03:56:21 pmHuge American water heating and air conditioning loads combined with their seriously unreliable grid.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2016, 05:12:46 pm
content: Quote from: helius on September 06, 2016, 04:46:43 pmThat's all plausible, particularly since the power meter - smart or otherwise - is irrelevant. Andthat'swhat was behind my question.If ruffy91 has an alternative explanation, I'm interested.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2016, 05:21:45 pm
content: Many years ago I worked for a company that develpoed a smart meter reading system primarilly for electricity and water meters. You would either drive past in a vehicle or use a handheld tranceiver and transmit an interregation message to all of the nearby meters which would each respond after a random time interval. I think early on they used the 173MHz and 433MHz ISM bands, later on for the US market they used spread spectrum at 915MHz. For whatever reason it didn't take off and the company eventually folded. I think reliable line of sight communication was the main problem, you would have be to standing quite close to a water meter buried in a pit a few feet under the pavement and not all electricity meters (in the US) are mounted on the front of the house for example. I think they may have measured a few antenna radiation patterns but I somehow doubt it and there was never an RF link budget of any description, they just built the hardware and hoped it worked, it didn't some of the time.

author: chris_leyson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2016, 05:42:22 pm
content: In the UK back in the day it used to be called RTS or Radio TeleSwitch Service, some electricity meters would pick up a signal from the BBC4 Droitwich transmitter at 200kHz (now 198kHz) and switch between day and night tariffs, Economy 7 was one tariff used to heat inefficient "storage radiators". I think the Economy 7 and Economy 10 schemes are still running and these days you could charge up your Telsa at off peak periods rather than heat up a pile of bricksAnyway, that's where the load shedding or rather load balancing comes into play. I'm surprised you can disconnect the power with just a near field RF signal and yet I'm not surprised it just replaces a firemans switch.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2016, 06:15:34 pm
content: Quote from: chris_leyson on September 06, 2016, 05:42:22 pmThey are rather differentAnd I think "load shifting" is a better term than "load balancing".QuoteUnfortunately much of the "smart meter is good" blurb implies it will automatically enable appliances to be turned on/off to use cheaper electricity. That blurb also neglects to mention that it will enable people anywhere in the world to disconnect your supply - due to non-payment of bills, reading/billing/communicating cockups, or DoS ransom attacks.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 06, 2016, 11:01:17 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 06, 2016, 06:15:34 pmGovernments in Australia were sold the idea by the power companies who get all the benefits, they even had the gumption to make the customers pay for their new meters!http://www.smartmeters.vic.gov.au/flexible-pricingQuote from: smartmeters.vic.gov.auWhile failing to mention that all your other power use during peak times would increase in price, so that you won't end up ahead even if you move substantial parts of your energy use to off peak periods. Every opportunity was taken to sell the supposed benefits to consumers when the only benefits are for the power distribution and retailers. Despite standards and infrastructure "smart appliances" for load shifting or load shedding have failed to materialise in the market.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2016, 12:18:23 am
content: The above is a good cautionary tale. But there is a use case for meters with variable energy rates (it can be achieved multiple ways: either send the $/kwh to the meter at the appropriate time; or, the meter counts energy during a defined interval [off-peak] in a separate bucket). The case is for local generation.Above the complaints of solar panel owners, most utilities have adopted a feed-in tariff scheme that pays much less for energy fed into the grid, compared to the consumption rate. So the expected savings from solar panels are much less than anticipated. With a variable rate (higher during peak hours, and lower at night), solar customers will pay less for the energy they consume during night hours, and they weren't net consumers during peak hours anyway.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2016, 12:21:08 am
content: QuoteThat's absolutely the right / fair way to approach it.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2016, 02:14:39 am
content: Quote from: Someone on September 06, 2016, 11:01:17 pmIn San Diego, the "load shifting plan" actually seems to be done right. The peak times are when most people would be at work and weekends/holidays are off peak all day. It's a fixed time which means that simple timers will do for automation.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2016, 04:30:55 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on September 07, 2016, 02:14:39 amHere is a comparison of the SDGE time of use plans against AGL electricity in NSW, note that there is an additional daily supply charge in Australia of 63 US cents for the flat rate plan and 72 US cents for the time of use plan.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2016, 07:22:37 am
content: Quote from: Someone on September 06, 2016, 11:01:17 pmUsing their figures, I "could" reduce my running costs by $8-$28! A far cry from $100-$150 (But kudos to them for stating presumptions)However, peak power can be very expensive, so it is reasonable to persuade people to shift load off peak.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2016, 10:38:56 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on September 07, 2016, 07:22:37 amBut solar feed in tariffs are only available as flat rates and not a fraction of the time of use tariffs....The big issue is that the wholesale pricing is wildly variable in Australia which is hard to distill down to a simple daily variation and even seasonal trends are poor, but the retailers are making huge profits and don't want to let consumers in on their market. More money is traded in financial instruments (derivatives, futures, etc) than the actual size of the energy market, its just another gambling pool for the mega rich.

author: Brutte
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2016, 04:41:16 pm
content: Quote from: joseph nicholas on September 02, 2016, 11:33:30 pmI feel your pain, brother.My car does exactly the same thing.After I forget to refuel, the bastard refuses to roll

author: NottheDan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2016, 06:07:15 pm
content: Quote from: Brutte on September 07, 2016, 04:41:16 pmIt's the carspiracy!

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 07, 2016, 10:57:10 pm
content: smart cars, smart meters, smart homes, where will the smarts stop? How is it smart when all it does is allow remote connectivity rather than perform any processing (like thermal shutdowns and other adjustments based on environment and situation).So by having everything "smart" like you car, people can hack it, drain the batteries or do all sorts of stuff. This means that someone else can also mess with power not just the company but we all know how much of a mess admin is with these big companies and governments, they easily screw up your taxes, payments and so on even though you may pay the correct amount regularly all the time. So when someone with greed gets a hold of your stuff where does that net you?