Wire - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 12:08:12 am
content: I have recently used up my roll of 22 AWG wire, in both black and red. I was wondering if someone could enlighten me on what they use and why. I thought about going ahead and purchasing another el-cheapo roll, but I would like something that is reasonably flexible and easy to work with.

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 12:24:11 am
content: For all my project wiring I switched years ago to teflon insulation and often silver plated stranded wires. Local junk store sells it pretty cheap in 22/24g. Not highly flexible but it is very durable with little risk of nicking/abrading through the insulation. I've source a few other gauges for different current capabilities.For test leads to various items (test jigs, test LEDs, power supplies, electronic loads etc) I often use silicone high strand count leads. Great for high flex, but the jacket is not as durable as teflon by a long shot. Available in many gauges on ebay.Both are solder temp proof and I like soldering the wires without having the insulation melt back.cheers,george.

author: pickle9000
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 01:19:32 am
content: Kynar otherwise known as wire wrap wire is very handy when modifying or repairing small traces on a pcb. Multi-colour ribbon cable also good to have on hand for rigging up a display.There are many good brands out there but hard to determine what is what when buying locally. They are often rerolled. If you buy a small roll at least see if the wire specs or model are printed on the actual wire. Auto parts stores often have good deals on wire.As for a production run, wire is a part and needs to be specified and purchased from a good dealer just like everything else.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 01:37:20 am
content: I go thru lots of kynar wire wrap wire, for use on perf board prototyping. its expensive but its thin and holds its shape well, as you bend it around under the board. its good to have at least 4 or even 8 colors available to you so that tracing thru a mess of wiring, later, is actually possibleits something like $50/roll (not sure how long the rolls are) and those last me a long time, but its definitely not cheap and since no one really wire wraps anymore, I would not expect to see this ever getting cheaper.for general hook-up wire, I prefer to find insulation that does not melt. I also avoid solid wire (exception is that kynar stuff).I love to keep rainbow ribbon cable on hand and peel off groups of wires as I need (often using off-board connectors, molex KK or similar).for shielded stuff, rg174 or similar for when I run audio or rf cables.sometimes I'll buy a few feet of 8conductor wire and steal the wires from the bundle just for hookup wire

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 02:13:25 am
content: The Teflon sounds good. I also do hate it when the insulation pulls back while soldering wires.

author: KC0PPH
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: May 05, 2014, 04:39:48 am
content: I love 30g wire. Easy to work with and if your just doing short runs or low current runs it works great.

author: Richard Head
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 08:47:49 am
content: Teflon/Tefzel is very robust but is really horrible to work with. I don't use it unless I have to.I can't believe anyone would choose to use it on a workbench.I generally use silicone wire but even silicone isn't as flexible as PVC.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 02:37:15 pm
content: Kynar insulated wire-wrap wire is nice but for some projects and repairs where I do not need color coding, I use solderable magnet wire which has even thinner insulation and no risk of nicking with wire strippers.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 02:44:07 pm
content: I have to admit, I'm a color snobeven on a small non-dense board like that, I still like having colored kynar wire. it looks neater to me than magnet wire. and the kynar strips easily. stripping magnet wire is not fun (maybe a solder pot helps but many folks don't have those at home).if kynar has a nick in its insulation, its easy to tell. for my eyes, its harder to tell if magnet wire has a break in its insulation. then again, magnet wire does not have its insulation melt if you keep the iron tip on it too long and kynar can easily burn if you are not careful.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 03:10:59 pm
content: Knyard ('mod wire') 30awg for wiring proto boards, solid 22awg for solderless breadboards, and teflon for general wiring (a local surplus store sell them for cheap and I scored on ebay a Teledyne thermal striper).

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 03:40:15 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on May 06, 2014, 02:44:07 pmThere is magnet wire and then there is magnet wire. I forget what it is called but some has insulation designed to be solderable at relatively low temperatures so it is trivial to tin with a 700F iron and no solder pot or mechanical stripping is needed. You can also get it in multiple colors although not all of them. Since the insulation is removed by soldering, there is no issue with nicking it.I use colored kapton wire-wrap wire when I want the color coding.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 03:46:02 pm
content: Quotehmm, if I place an order, how do I know which is which?lolI have not tried the first kind. or maybe it was the 2nd kind. anyway, this sounds intriguing. didn't know there was stuff that was easy to deal with. I've only seen the annoying-to-deal-with magnet wire so I never gave any of it a 2nd look.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 03:54:07 pm
content: Quote from: Richard Head on May 06, 2014, 08:47:49 amTeflon is definitely hard to strip. There is now UL1061 wire that uses a type of PVC insulation that doesn't pull back or melt, but is fairly easy to strip. It is worth looking for.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 04:25:28 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on May 06, 2014, 03:46:02 pmLook for magnet wire with polyurethane/polyimide insulation (some is polyurethane/nylon, aka PUR/nylon, on wire with higher temp ratings).Mouser carries Beldsol (Belden)herefor example.

author: Dinsdale
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 05:16:43 pm
content: Mr. White: What shall we use to conduct this beautiful current with? What one particular element comes to mind?Jesse: Ahh! Wire!

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 07:23:37 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on May 06, 2014, 04:25:28 pmSearch for "solderable magnet wire". It is readily available; even Beldon and MWS make it. Colors that I have seen include red, green, amber, and blue but for all that I know, every color is available. I just have a giant spool 30 gauge which looks bright red but all of my spools of non-solderable magnet wire are darker colored. It is much easier to use than Kynar insulated wire wrap wire.This is just an example I ran across:http://www.techfixx.com/

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 11:02:08 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on May 06, 2014, 07:23:37 pmI thought he was after something that would separate it out from everything else in the search parameters on sites like mouser, digikey, ..."solderable magnet wire" will do the trick in a regular search engine though, as well as eBay.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 06, 2014, 11:21:51 pm
content: I will order and try some. thanks for the tip.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 01:12:31 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on May 06, 2014, 02:44:07 pmThen you'd hate my wiring style:

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 01:43:33 am
content: holy hell

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 01:49:40 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on May 09, 2014, 01:12:31 amGlad I'm not the one debugging those boards...

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 02:02:33 am
content: Quote from: nanofrog on May 09, 2014, 01:49:40 amHopefully it works. If you tossed it to me and said "good luck" I would return to my desk and start bashing my head against the desk.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 02:10:18 am
content: those boards are unsupportable. sorry. I would not accept that mess of wires on my project.reminds me of the old wire-wrap days. those were not good days, btw

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 03:08:48 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on May 09, 2014, 02:10:18 amThey were development boards. And yes, they were quite easy to work on, and modify.Schematics were standard style, with IC numbers and a grid reference, so locating pins on specific ICs was not a problem.To replace or move a wire, just locate the endpoints (easy), push aside any wires in the way (usually not necessary, since the wires are mostly routed in bundles away from pins), and pull wire off with fine-point pliers or tweezers while holding an iron on the joint.The wiring technique involves having several inches of bare kynar wire at the end, loosely routing the intended wire to get the required length of insulation, using a slot wire-stripper to separate that length of insulation, then sliding it along the bared wire till near the end. To make the first joint onto a pin on the board, use fine tip pliers to make a small loop on the wire end, slip over pin, press tight, then solder. Then slide the insulation down till it's tight against the joint.Route the wire across the board, avoiding burying pins and bearing signal cross talk, etc in mind. Place wire against end-point pin, use fine pliers to loop the bare wire tightly once around the pin. Solder. Cut off excess wire.That the wires were looped on the terminus pins, meant it was easy to attach/detach multiple wires to single points, if necessary. Since the existing wires didn't pop off if the solder was remelted.Also, since kynar doesn't melt at soldering temperatures, if you did happen to accidentally touch the iron tip to the wiring in-place, no harm done.The result is very robust, and I NEVER had a single fault due to wires coming off, or bad joints.Sometimes if I was going to be frequently handling a prototype made this way, I'd attach a protective panel of clear plastic sheet over the wiring. But usually not.Incidentally, the board with the copper foil under the point to point wiring, was a complex analog system with a mix of analog and digital signals, up to around 20MHz. It worked perfectly. That cut-and-hack method of circuit prototyping is the best I know of.QuoteYes, wire wrap was horriffic. Bulky, fragile, crap for high frequency signal quality.This soldered point to point system was a reaction to my disgust with wire-wrap, and is _much_ more practical, reliable, easy to work on. Plus the signal quality is as good as the grounding system you choose.Oh, incidentally, the 'pins' are the legs of IC sockets. If I knew I'd be working on a dev board for a long time I'd use machine pin sockets. But mostly just the cheaper standard sockets.In those years (80s, 90s) I'd never do a PCB unless I already had fully prototyped the circuit, and usually even got most of any required software going. The result was that even for complex designs I could usually do PCbs that worked first time.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 03:15:49 am
content: I don't have an issue with perf-boarding. I do almost nothing but that.just the single color that drives me nuts, that's allyou have to admit that colors help you trace out things when you get to that point. my vision is bad enough as it is, I need the color diffs to help pick one wire out from the rest. I simply would not be able to do any work with a monocolor wiring job like that. I'd give up with frustration, to be honest.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 03:24:13 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on May 09, 2014, 03:15:49 amBut why would youneedto 'trace out' wires? You should have a complete schematic, and the wires should exactly match the schematic. So you only need to locate endpoints. (Highlighter pens FTW!)Back in the wire wrap days I'd come to the conclusion that using multiple wire colors was pointless. It just made initial wiring more tedious (having to swap colors often) and didn't add anything to functionality.

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 03:37:13 am
content: For us youngsters...What is wire wrap?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 03:54:03 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on May 09, 2014, 03:37:13 amWiki page.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 03:58:59 am
content: if a wire breaks or a connection was working 'mostly' but went high-z later on, a repair would be needed. if a part blew (that was not in a socket) the wires to that part have to be unsoldered and redone with the new part.part of product building - to me - is about support. not just 'does it work now' but 'can it be fixed by someone else, later on'.even things I build for myself might end up being owned by someone else later on. I would not want someone to have to debug that. but that's just me and my style. I try to make things supportable, if at all possible.

author: Richard Crowley
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 03:59:44 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on May 09, 2014, 03:37:13 amAssuming you aren't kidding....Wire-wrap is the method of terminating wires on square (or rectangular) pins by wrapping under tension. The sharp corners of the pins actually make multiple gas-tight connections with the bare wire. Most methods also wrap a few turns of the insulated part of the wire for additional mechanical stability.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 04:39:37 am
content: That looks so familiar, I worked on it for years. Having the circuit diagram, along with another set with the wiring layouts with pin numbers ( and nicely a back drawing with the pin numbers for ease of reference) in large format made working there relatively easy. This was on a product that was mass produced, at least in the aviation market. They made 50, and a test station, all wire wraped. Test station was different, no wiring diagram but they did have the circuit diagram and a per card diagram as well. Fun was the ATE side, a 400 pin connector with 300 wires, all white.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 05:08:18 am
content: here, have some more colors.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 05:12:24 am
content: since we're on the topic of wiring styles, here's a Power Designs interior with an 'interesting' method of wiring:(no mono-colored wiring, there, either. lol)quite a piece of work, those old PDI supplies. never saw that construction technique used before. I think this model is from the early 60's.

author: SArepairman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 06:52:07 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on May 09, 2014, 01:12:31 amchirst man you need to etch your own PCBs if you are gonna go through all that trouble

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 08:51:16 am
content: Quote from: linux-works on May 09, 2014, 05:12:24 amIt's a form of point to point construction.

author: MLXXXp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 01:34:41 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on May 09, 2014, 01:12:31 amYour style is similar to what I used for an S100 I/O board I built in the late 1970's, including the technique of sliding measured insulation along bare wire. I used colour, though, and tried to avoid slack on the wires.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 05:30:38 pm
content: Turret tags on that PDI supply. Lovely things, even though you need good metalworking skills to attach them to the board neatly. You could cheat and use a press and dies, but just using a single mandrel to hold the tag and a hammer to peen over the back worked quite well. I still have a big bottle of assorted solid rivets, and the mandrel I made to set them, as often you were in a confined space and using a small ball peen hammer would not fit.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 05:44:32 pm
content: this is probably why they say that a PDI supply can be thrown from a moving truck and still work to factory specsthat wiring style sure does look bullet proof, almost literallylabor intensive, as hell, to build, though!

author: ajb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 06:06:31 pm
content: In case anyone hasn't seen ChaN's work before:http://elm-chan.org/docs/wire/wiring_e.htmlAlso:http://elm-chan.org/docs/wire/wcd.jpegQuote from: linux-works on May 09, 2014, 05:44:32 pmThat big slug of metal also requires quite a bit of heat to solder. I have a couple of PD supplies that need a bit of TLC, and they require a nice hot iron and a bit of patience to repair.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 06:24:22 pm
content: never saw chan's work. beautiful stuff! I love it.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 08:34:27 pm
content: Quote from: ajb on May 09, 2014, 06:06:31 pmDefinitely beautiful work.Would certainly require plenty of patience and good eyesight.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 08:38:44 pm
content: I drink way too much coffee to be able to keep steady enough hands for that work.."It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,the hands acquire shaking,the shaking becomes a warning;it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2014, 08:57:13 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on May 09, 2014, 08:38:44 pmHow could I forget steady hands (particularly as mine shake like mad)?BTW like thePiter De Vriesreference fromDune.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 03:33:06 am
content: Quote from: echen1024 on May 09, 2014, 03:37:13 amAlready answered, I know. But a good excuse to post this - a little signal generator project I built around 1976 (approx). Since it has a wire wrapped board in it. The front panel lettering is getting a bit patchy by now.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 03:49:57 am
content: Quote from: MLXXXp on May 09, 2014, 01:34:41 pmNeat!I seem to recall I did one or two that way (tight wires between points) but discovered it resulted in unpredictable bunching, and also made it difficult to get at pins that happened to be underneath piles of wire. So switched to the 'loosely routed' style.Heh. You brought 8255 IO pins directly out, off the board? Have any problems with chips dying?Getting back to the original thread topic, I find I never have to buy hookup wire. Just pick up a street-tossed photocopier or printer or such every now and then. Electronics products with a bit of electromechanical stuff tend to have quite a lot of different kinds of wire in their looms. More than anyone would need for a few hobby projects.I just pulled another one apart yesterday, going to post a quickie thread on it.Edit: Oh, and I remembered now another reason I switched to single color wiring. It meant I could buy one bulk roll of wire, which made it much cheaper per foot, and was less hassle to store.

author: MLXXXp
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 01:17:03 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on May 11, 2014, 03:49:57 amMost of the 8255 I/O went via ribbon cable to DB 25 connectors on the back of the PC. Many were intended to go to a control unit containing an ASCII keyboard, A/D, D/A, interrupt buttons, joy sticks, slide pots, etc. However, I never actually built the keyboard unit, so the I/O never got much use, except to drive a dot matrix printer. I still have the system, a Poly 88, but I haven't powered it up in well over 20 years.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 01:22:06 pm
content: Quote from: linux-works on May 06, 2014, 02:44:07 pmIs that a DAC ?If so what chip have you used ?I'd like to build a 192Khz Audio Dac for my Pi/Bingo

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2014, 01:50:24 pm
content: not a dac, just a simple level converter for 5v ttl to 3.3v, for the raspi console connection.