UK education and training-A rant - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: djsb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2010, 01:32:30 pm
content: OK, so I thought I would enrol on a basic Electrical Installation course at a local college.1/ Because I thought I would be learning something useful.2/ There was a chance of 2 years work based training.3/ It would keep the Department of Employment quiet and prove I'm serious about finding work.So after filling in application forms and doing a basic maths/english test online I went for a very brief interview. The minute he saw I had a HND in Electronics he basically whipped me off to talk to someone else. Tried to argue I would be bored on the course and overqualified. Was taken on a quick tour of the college to see some admin person who told me that as I have a higher qualification the government will not fund me for a City & Guilds. Basically they will only pay for people under 19 years old (I'm a 49 year old wrinkly) as that is how they attract funding. If I wanted to do the course I would have to fund myself which would cost around £2000 for a 1 day a week of study. After what I'd heard off a student who'd done the course last year the money would be wasted.Can't win in this country. What can I do? At least I tried.David.P.S I believe this country (UK) is heading for 3-5 years of deep recession and a house price massacre. So, in 5 years time they'll be crying out for electricians for the new housing boom. Sorry I wont be one of them (NOT).

author: DJPhil
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 24, 2010, 02:10:28 pm
content: I feel for you, that's a messed up system.I can only tell you what I might try. I'm not working either and I've been fighting health problems for a few years now. Someday I'll be strong enough to get back in the swing, and all the folks here helped show me that electronics is where I'd be happiest. I might wind up fighting the same sort of issues here in the US (I'm 31 now), so I've given it some thought.I'd leverage my spare time against the system, as it's my primary asset in such a situation. My advice would be to speak with as many people as you can to try to find a way through. Speak with and write to education officials, government officials, teachers, students, student organizations, industry organizations, print and television media, elder advocacy groups (even though you're not there yet it's a material issue to them), anyone you can get your hands on. Make as huge a stink as you can, and use the facts against them.The system as it stands seems to discriminate against adults (anyone over 20), so ask them to prove it's not doing so! They should be able to show some sort of support for those who are intelligent and willing students and don't happen to be fresh out of secondary school. If there's money for education out there it's an economic issue to ignore the elder three quarters of the population. It'd be a horrible waste of resources!Above all, stay strong. Keep looking for a way into industry with the qualifications you already have. I know it's hard when you'd rather be doing electronics than political activism. I've been through a small version of this with a friend of mine who couldn't get work here due to a juvenile conviction. It didn't turn into an epic battle, we actually found him a job with a railroad track test company and he's been there six years now, happy as a clam.You've got us here too for support and ideas.Hope that helps, sorry if I got a bit preachy.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 24, 2010, 04:18:20 pm
content: Well I'll join the protest,I returned to the UK just in time to turn 25, so no more financial help there, then I find that even if i was to pay for a course they wanted me on it for one whole day a week and one whole evening. No in case this stupid fucking government hasn't noticed I have to hold a job down in order to pay for the course, what idiot employer will employ me with that sort of rota ? my current workplace refused and are to this day very insensitive to the fact that I have more to offer and could further my education more.The government really is just conning and lying. i here no end of adverts about the more you learn the more you earn, then they ignore anyone under 25. I pick things up easily particularly electronics. Today my supervisor confessed to me that it was the works manager that got me the job (QC inspector in engineering/manufacturing) and that he was wrongly dubious because I had no qualifications and was amazed at my progress.Of course what does this mean for the dickhead government ? I'll tell you. I will improve on my own possibly make a living on the side from my hobby and yes screw paying them any taxes on my sideline. why should I help them when they won't help meI've never known such a messed up country as the UK, really here we seem to aim to make a mockery of common sense and do stuff stupidly for the purpose.so yea, you want to revolt: I'll join you, they are very good at calling people out of work lazy but when one actively tries to better oneself they make it harder.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2010, 07:27:51 pm
content: So the people teaching the course don't know the difference between electrical installation and electronics?When I re-wired my conservatory i had to contact the local council to find some one (and pay them) to come out and inspect it for part P compliance. To those who don't know the regulations Part P is part of the wiring standard that means the work has to be done or inspected by someone competent - not just thrown together by a cowboy.I got chatting to the guy when he was here about the subject. Main reason being I work for the company that had produced the tester he was using and was telling him what the new version did. Free advert and demo for user feedback. Why waste the opportunity?

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2010, 07:39:07 pm
content: I'll do my own wiring as much as possible, was not aware you had to have it checked. Unless they have a diagram of each persons electrics how is anyone to know it was checked or was not part of the original system.result: I have a live wire in my wall because some cowboy bent it so tight that the insulation split

author: baljemmett
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2010, 08:23:05 pm
content: Quote from: Simon on August 25, 2010, 07:39:07 pmGawd, you should see the reams of electrical documentation that came with my newbuild... Although, as you say, who's to know half the time? I reckon some of this nonsense might fall by the wayside anyway, since as I recall the certification requirements mostly impacted on HIPs which were promptly given the heave-ho by the new government...

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2010, 08:26:21 pm
content: The Part P regulations came out in 2005. It requires "Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury." It was introduced when BS7671 edition 17 came out.have a look athttp://www.theiet.org/publishing/wiring-regulations/part-p/

author: djsb
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2010, 09:40:00 pm
content: It's also because someone got killed when they hammered a nail into a wall where a wire had been routed incorrectly. It was publicised widely and a campaign was set up to tighten up regulations.David.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2010, 05:42:21 am
content: Quote from: djsb on August 25, 2010, 09:40:00 pmTo be honest I'm a firm believer in natural selection. and I don't think the regs dictate someone going to all houses to ensure that a 30mA RCD has been fitted which would have stopped the death happening, if you that stupid you put a nail through a wire then well your obviously not much use to humanity and just a burden !

author: cybergibbons
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2010, 09:44:03 pm
content: Sorry, the regs are important, and if the house you live in is missing documentation you won't be able to sell it.The incident referred to (whether myth or real) didn't cause the 17th edition to come out - the whole thing was revised as the result of hundreds of accident reports. One of the things it did was make the routing of chased cables predictable, so that you know where it is safe to put in a screw. There always have been and always will be hundreds of muppets doing electrical work on their own property with no idea what they are doing.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 27, 2010, 06:59:33 am
content: yea unfortunately mine is one of them, as far as i know i have no documentation about my electrics, as if it's that easy to verify any diagrams, I was totally unsuspecting until i pulled the wallpaper off and stabbed the wall with my multimeter

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2010, 09:02:36 am
content: Quote from: Simon on August 26, 2010, 05:42:21 amBut if the wire is buried in the wall, how would you know it's there?If the wiring complies with the 17th edition, ensures that cables will be buried deep enough or have adequate protection against people hammering nails into the wall.After having done both an HND in electronic and electrical engineering, the 17th edition course and PAT, I would say that an HND will not make you a competent electrician. I agree that whilst doing the part P should be fairly straightforward for someone with an HND, it's still should be required before they can perform electrical installation work. Also note that there's a difference between replacing old wiring and components and designing a new installation.Quote from: djsb on August 24, 2010, 01:32:30 pmAs far as the UK's educational system is concerned, it might not be fair but I can see why it's they way it is. The government would rather focus more resources on training people who are both unemployed and who don't have any qualifications. The reasoning behind not funding you to do an electrical installation course, if you have an HND is that they think you should be able to find a job pretty easily because you already have a better qualification than what you would gain from the course you want to do. The reason for giving priority to younger people is that they have less work experience so will generally find it harder to get a job and someone who's older and has had several previous jobs.Quote from: Simon on August 24, 2010, 04:18:20 pmMy previous employer did and paid be for the day at college which was good.I suggest you look for another job.Hell, if you're really keen get a part time job. The trouble is that now you've got your own place, money might be a problem. Another option is to rent it out and downsize or even move back in with your dad until you complete the course and get a proper job.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2010, 10:45:39 am
content: Quote from: Hero999 on August 30, 2010, 09:02:36 amAs I said where i work is a shit hole, personally I see them in trouble in 5 years when all their experienced people have retired and they have tried to replace people with years of experience and undocumented company knowledge with some dick heads from an agency with 3 months training (if you can call it that).I am looking to move on so plan on getting a certain project up and running so that I can go to a prospective employer with something to show for myself. Another option I'm looking at is to jump into the vintage auto restoring market which I'm looking to provide a few projects to any how so will already be known, I'm also quite apt with mechanical things and could easily get in there if i felt it was secure enough.I just want to do something useful instead of paper work for paperworks sake which is what I would do if i progressed where i work. As we all know there is not industry in the UK for electronics unless rather niche or very high end. I'm not good enough for high end and i know that in a niche market qualifications are not so important hence my push on a nice project I can say i designed and marketed to success (ie I sold a few and they work), I'm not interested in "office" work or white collar work I'm not stupid enough to be snotty over having a white collar job, providing it pays the bills and I like it enough.

author: DeepThought
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: August 31, 2010, 09:42:58 am
content: I won't say Electrical Installation is anything like rocket science.But I find the British concept of 'Builder' pretty scary. You can never have learned the proper rules and procedures in that amount of time. Not even the basic safety stuff.Where I come from you can't do much on electrical installations if you did not go through a three year education. Ok, you need zero training if you are being constantly supervised.This apprenticeship is of course sate sponsored. (The school part and you can get salary assistance)I like the low entry threshold low limitations aspect. I guess what confuses me here in UK is that I don't seem to have a way of knowing how well educated and skilled any workers are that I employ. I want to be sure contractors know what they are doing.Maybe I'm missing a crucial point here and it is all nice and easy.btw. I love the British high current power plugs. Not sure though if a ring is still adequate these days. Is that still used?Anyway, good luck in the trade. It's certainly not your fault that the system works like it does. Hope you find something soon.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 31, 2010, 11:55:44 am
content: Quote from: DeepThought on August 31, 2010, 09:42:58 amthen just make sure you know more than them. Welcome to the 5 minutes certificate culture, oh you did it once in a controlled test ? right now you can go practice, there seems to be no sense of trade and apprenticeship here just poor quality courses and then you a know it nothing for all i care