Unfortunately bad use of technology - Flir - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 03:48:53 am
content: David.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 03:56:48 am
content: Ah, they still have to steal your card...And in Australia at least, we have largely changed over to NFC tap and go for purchases under $100. No pin required.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 04:25:03 am
content: We still need to take precautions.That is why the keypads are covered and you use your hand to cover yourself so nobody can see it.Now something else to take care of....David.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 05:13:45 am
content: Just rest your fingers across all the keytops for a second after pin entry, that way all get heated, and the detection is much harder. As well stay next to the ATM after the transaction for a second or ten to make it harder to get the thermal image.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 01:21:40 pm
content: It's interesting to see that the time-fade makes the sequence so obvious.Quote from: EEVblog on August 30, 2014, 03:56:48 amExcept for those of us who don't like the idea that if someone steals the card, they can use it without a PIN. That's completely unacceptable to me.Not to mention being uncomfortable with walking around with a little RF identifier in my pocket. Since, what's the bet the actual range is more than a few inches? Enough to register your passing, if for instance stores wanted to track customers instore via hidden transceivers. Presumably with a directional enough transmit and receive antenna it could be made to work over fairly long distances too.Regardless of whether such things are done now, or may be in future, I'm quite happy to absolutely ensure the possibility for my own card is zero.One light tap with a hammer via a flat-ended punch, on the location of the chip inside the card puts an end to that 'no contact RF' stuff. Didn't ask for it, don't want it.The result is you have to insert the card in POS terminals (twice) till it figures out that the chip is broken and doesn't work with the contacts either. Then you can just swipe the magnetic strip and enter your PIN.I find it interesting that the readers won't accept a mag stripe swipe first, until they have been told (twice) that the chip is broken. That bit of logic suggests the aim is to phase out mag stripes entirely.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 01:27:10 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on August 30, 2014, 05:13:45 amThis.You could even "fake-press" the buttons afterwards, so any attacker will see what they think is the right PIN by the thermal image but it won't work at all.Personally, I think the risk of this is quite small.

author: GreyWoolfe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 01:29:03 pm
content: Or you can use your debit card as a credit card. No button pressing involved. I do that at the gas stations.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 04:15:36 pm
content: Magstripe should go, as it is no longer secure ( not to say chip and pin is more secure but that is something for another topic) and is easy to use with any ATM worldwide, with all the data and the PIN capable of fitting into a standard SMS data packet. Card writer ( using any old card or any number of DIY cards made from card) and pin and you get money. Chip and pin ( and better chip, pin and signature, which puts the onus back on the store for losses) is somewhat safer.NFC is easy to defeat with a simple copper sheet on one side of the card. Any reader that can read at a distance will have to pump in enough energy to heat the card up to a feelable temperature.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 04:32:51 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 30, 2014, 03:56:48 amNFC tap is the scariest for me. I have a simple demonstration app on my Android device with NFC to steal the codes directly out of people wallets. I've done it with my cards, just before I cancelled them due to their terrible security (and to hopefully have my voice heard, but I doubt it). NFC is STUPID. BECAUSE ALL YOUR INFO IS STORED ON THE CARD AS PLAIN TEXT RFID. I "accidentally bumped" my android tablet into the wallet of many guys here at work and then showed them all their credit card data that was NFC enabled. This should be scaring everyone, but people don't care.

author: DavidDLC
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 07:29:51 pm
content: Now you need to buy metallic wallets for your NFC's card.David.

author: DmitryL
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 30, 2014, 10:10:45 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on August 30, 2014, 04:15:36 pmCopper. Really ? Have you tried ?Quite a long time ago I played with my RFID-based pass and found that usual kitchen aluminium foil makes it harder to read, but doesn't provide enough shielding.Usual thin ferrous sheet salvaged from a can gave 100% protection.AFAIK NFC stuff uses mostly magnetic field for communication; thus it is better to use something magnetic for shielding (superconductive stuff will do as well).

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2014, 12:24:02 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 30, 2014, 03:56:48 amThe security on this stuff is stupidly weak ... they are just setting us all up for Skimming V2.www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/publications/trs/papers/1421.pdf

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2014, 12:45:14 am
content: Quote from: Marco on August 31, 2014, 12:24:02 amIt's the banks' problem though, since the cardholder is not liable for fraudulent transactions.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2014, 04:28:37 am
content: They could just use one of those cheap keychain IR thermometers. A thermal camera is overkill.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2014, 06:10:07 am
content: Quote from: IanB on August 31, 2014, 12:45:14 amYou're forgetting the hassle factor and time sink of dealing with fraud once it occurs.I had nothing against cards using internal chips, requiring contact and entry of a PIN. But the idea of cards with wireless operation, requiring no identity check at all, and revealing your ID and other card data to anyone with a covert transponder, is so far into the insane that I don't 'wonder what they were thinking' - I am certain there has to be an ulterior agenda there.As for what that might be... one guess is that the card chip will maintain a record of transactions, and that this will be exposed to anyone with whatever code it takes to make the card tell all. And the parties with equipment and codes for that, will include both the police and criminals. You can bet on it.Add that to the persistent drip, drip of measures around the world to eliminate cash as legal tender, and you'd end up with a truly glass fish bowl society. Remote readout of any and every person's entire transaction history - a police state wet dream.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2014, 07:18:54 am
content: I keep WiFi turned off, as you have no chance of getting open WiFi here. At home I might turn it on when needed, but otherwise just use mobile data off the package for the month.

author: Towger
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2014, 07:38:12 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on August 30, 2014, 01:21:40 pmThe RFID cards can be read from about a meter away with the right equipment. I am waiting for a genious to write a phone app which will harvest the data... Beware of people brushing against you ;-)I just told my bank I did not trust their RFID system and they sent me a replacement standard smartcard. The limit here is 15 euro without a pin and you are asked for one anyway every few transactions. So it is clear the banks auditors are not happy with the system.What I always find amazing is the Yanks are still using basic magnetic strip cards.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2014, 09:07:20 am
content: The RFID cards issued by my bank (Barclays) require that the first 3 transactions using the rfid also require the use of a pin number, I just refuse to use the contactless service at all so as not to activate it.It is only visa credit cards that fraudulent activity is the responsibility of the issuing bank visa debit cards the responsibility is down to the account holder so if you get defrauded you wont get your money back. It happened to me luckily for a small amount I used it to top up my mobile phone and a day later it was used in 2 different towns either end of the country a few minutes apart to buy phone top ups for £10-00 a go. Despite the impossibility of any one beeping able to be 150 miles apart within 3 minutes the bank refused to do anything and said it was down to Vodafone who said yes it was obvious fraud they would look into it but it was up to the bank to recompense me, after may phone calls and letters I just gave up as the hassle of pursuing £20 was not worth the trouble.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2014, 09:59:09 am
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on August 31, 2014, 04:28:37 amThat would be way harder and less discreet. You need a snapshot of the temp of all keys at the same time, which would be borderline impractical with a spot temp meter.A TIC catches the temp across all keys, along with the position info. You can also capture all frames, and analyse the data later offlineBy applying local avaraging and contrast expansion to enhance the data I think you could get very reliable results in many cases.Maybe you could write an app to do it..

author: justanothercanuck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2014, 10:41:01 am
content: My RFID chip in my bank card doesn't even work anymore. My guess is that either the readers are busted, or my fat ass broke it because I sit on my wallet.

author: Terabyte2007
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2014, 11:45:47 am
content: Not sure if this will ever be a real problem. May be some isolated cases here and there. Considering 3 digit security pin codes and financial institution daily card limits, I think this will always be more of a cool hack than a mainstream source for identity theft. There are much more efficient ways to steal thousands or even millions of CC numbers and personal information and these are the methods being used by the mainstream identity theft hackers.And as Dave said, they sill need your card!

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2014, 06:40:24 pm
content: Quote from: SeanB on August 31, 2014, 07:18:54 amSame here, even at home I don't turn the WiFi on, since there is nothing I need to do on the phone that will require WiFi, same thing with GPS is always off unless I do need it. Turning both off has a lot of impact to battery life.Only time I might use the WiFi in my phone is if I need a quick access point for my android tablet.

author: Bassman59
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2014, 03:37:36 am
content: Quote from: GreyWoolfe on August 30, 2014, 01:29:03 pmThat works, at least until the debit card is compromised by a bogus card reader at the gas pump. And then the bad guy empties your checking account before you even realize it, and then the mortgage check bounces. Sure, the bank will make you whole, but what about all of the bounce fees?I have a non-VISA/MC ATM card which can be used only to withdraw money from the machine. For regular purchases, I use a credit card which gets paid off every month.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2014, 03:44:09 am
content: Quote from: Bassman59 on September 01, 2014, 03:37:36 amI live in a town with many zip codes, because you must at least enter that.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2014, 05:58:55 am
content: Regarding the NFC stuff, Mythbusters wanted to do an episode on NFC but was contacted by the heads of several credit card companies and was told they were warming up their lawyers. Discovery Networks opted to back away from the episode and it was never made.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2014, 06:18:08 am
content: Quote from: sacherjj on August 30, 2014, 04:32:51 pmNone of my 3 NFC credit cards (3 different banks, two mastercard, one VISA) show any usable ASCII data in any of the 16 segments using NFC Tag Info on my Android tablet.That info does yours show?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 01, 2014, 09:12:16 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on September 01, 2014, 09:05:07 amThat's how understood it, which is why I've never heard of any fraud in this area.And I'm pretty sure you more than the NFC data to make a copy of the card so you could go around buying stuff at under $100 a pop until it's reported stolen.QuoteIt'sbetterthan before because the old signature system was nothing short of a joke, the signature isright therefor you to copy, not that anyone checked it anyway, and you could use that for any amount. Now it limits them to sub $100 transactions, and no cash out transactions.QuoteYep, I love it, and groan any time I have to actually enter a pin now, or any time someone fumbled cash or pin in the line in front of me.

author: firewalker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 01, 2014, 09:22:15 am
content: I like using cash. I tend to spend more money when using electronic transactions. And in many cases it's faster too (e.g. systems that utilize gsm network to verify the card).Alexander.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2014, 02:05:35 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on September 01, 2014, 10:34:56 pmThere is still the possibility of a man in the middle attack. You stand in a busy train, hacker A next to you has a reader that is connected to a remote hacker that make purchases with you account. It will show up in your card's history.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 02, 2014, 02:14:12 am
content: Quote from: zapta on September 02, 2014, 02:05:35 amUnless the card reader at the turnstiles has very strict constraints on how long the card has to respond to a request. Sure, it could probably be MITM hacked if you had a point-to-point two-way radio designed specifically for the job, but the moment you try to use any sort of packet-based radio, think public infrastructure (Wi-Fi or 4G), the latency would be so obviously through the roof.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2014, 04:07:27 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 01, 2014, 06:18:08 amThere are apps all about that will print out the plain text of the NFC data. I can see the full card number and exp dates and other info that is used to do the NFC PoS transaction..

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2014, 08:45:07 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on September 03, 2014, 09:12:58 amYep, the same things that are printed on the front of the card. The same things that can "clone" the card into the Android device and repeat it to NFC sales locations to make transactions on my card without my authorization.The only NFC purchase I made with the card, before I cancelled the account due to insanely stupid security around these, had no action required on my part than moving the card over the display until it beeped. It really didn't care if it was my card or a copy of my card.

author: rs20
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2014, 10:30:57 pm
content: Quote from: sacherjj on September 03, 2014, 08:45:07 pmMaybe you're talking about a particularly poor specific implementation of an NFC payment system. But well-designed NFC payment systems use a challenge-response based security system (or similar) that means you can't just read the entire state of the card; so it's practically impossible to have a Android device usefully clone a (well-designed) NFC payment card.

author: sacherjj
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 03, 2014, 10:37:40 pm
content: Quote from: rs20 on September 03, 2014, 10:30:57 pmThis is the only system I have used from a standard American bank. The only real way American banks know how to do things is poorly.

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 07:29:34 pm
content: Could it be vulnerable to relay attacks like RFID based vehicle keyless entry systems, due to the "proxity means authenticity" thing?media.hacking-lab.com/scs3/scs3_pdf/SCS3_2011_Capkun.pdf

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 07:55:56 pm
content: You need the card for payments but there are plenty of door keypads that don't require a key/token, so might be a problem there.The crappy security on bank cards is because the banks isn't held responsible for skimming, the consumer takes all the risk. Because of that banks have no incentive to improve security, in fact it would even be illegal for them in certain countries since it would be an unnecessary (from the banks perspective) expense that reduce profit for the share holders.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 08:44:00 pm
content: Banks had to repay skimming fraud to consumers here, but one way or another we'll always be paying for it. They are completely reactive, they have very little capacity to think like a fraud (well a technical fraud, fraudulently using/avoiding the law they're much better at). It took years of MitM attacks on internet banking for my bank to do something (they now use a small dedicated device which reads a code from the screen of your computer display and then shows the transaction data on it and a code to authorize it, you don't have to rely on what you see on the computer screen).It would have cost less than a cent per reader to do ToF distance detection/limiting with NFC. Of course compared to the idiocy that is SEPA in the EU it's small potatos ...

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 09:30:18 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on August 30, 2014, 01:21:40 pmThe problem with this method is most of the new pin pads these days don't have mag readers anymore. It's either RF or the chip. I almost exclusively use card for everything and I'd probably have to say that at least half of the readers I come across don't support mag stripe (mostly Ingenico and Quest branded units).Is there a way you can break the NFC antenna leaving the chip intact? If it doesn't stop NFC completely, it would at least severely limit its range.Not sure what kind of card this is but would all cards be made this way?...

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 11:11:46 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 25, 2015, 09:30:18 pmYes - the antenna is a fairly large coil - search google images for credit card x-ray for some examples.It's occasionally visible if you shine a very bright light through the card.A small hole, or cut at the edge to break the coil would disable the NFC functionality.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 25, 2015, 11:58:53 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on August 25, 2015, 08:44:00 pmI believe the Banks here covered some of the obvious skimming frauds that got media attention but they were not legally obligated to. The reasoning by the court was along the lines that it would put an unreasonable burden on the banks to prove if there was an actual fraud or not. The root cause of the problem however was the non existent security in the cards to begin with, and it's the banks that want us to stop using cash in the first place since card systems are so profitable for them. So even though it was their negligence of security that caused the problem, since the burden of evidence was put on the consumer they really didn't have any incentive to fix it until it became a huge problem exploited by organised crime.Quote from: Marco on August 25, 2015, 08:44:00 pmInteresting, so it has a camera you hold up to the screen? Or just a photo diode?

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 12:59:38 am
content: Yeah it has a camera, it shows what it's looking at on the screen of the device so you can point it correctly.NFC is small potatoes compared to skimming and internet banking fraud, it's only a single relatively small payment for something hard to convert into cash and you can't really obscure your face from security cameras so if it gets discovered they have your mugshot.PS. of course a lot of people won't verify the account number on the device, those people will be screwed in the case of a MITM attack ... but at least verified merchants get to show the company name instead of their bank account numbers, so you don't always have to check the account number.

author: TheElectricChicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 01:10:04 am
content: oh and then the heavies forced him to retract everything he said, I can't be bothered even watching that one, probably every bit as riveting as ' who killed the electric car ' part two.The paywave thing, it's just to tag and identify everyone. As to how far away it can be read, it depends with what. Certainly tens of meters with a decent covert-use designed reader, and any hacker could get several meters out of them. There are plenty of people at the checkouts with stories of how someone else had accidentally used their card on the checkout behind them without realizing it and so on.The sole point of paywave is so that when there is a civil disobedience protest, 'they' can walk through the crowd and record the details of all the people 'they' don't like and deal with them later.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 01:39:21 am
content: AFAICS for the same SNR the area of your "antenna" has to increase by a square of the distance.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 01:49:46 am
content: Well Here's one for you, talking about security with credit cards....I recently made a purchase of $600+ on my Home Depot credit card. After I swiped the card and signed, the lady gave me the receipt. I asked her why she did not ask for my ID and that I could have been anyone (the purchase only required signature, NOT PIN) who found or stole the card and used it to buy these new tools. Her reply was, "Oregon recently passed a privacy law and we are no longer allowed to ask for your ID for any purchases, unless you appear to be under 35 and purchasing alcohol or cigarettes."Man, I hope that is NOT true. I was very upset. I haven't had time yet, but I will be contacting Home Depot Merchant Credit Card customer service and ask them why I was not asked for my ID on such a large purchase.EDIT: Holy crap! The first google search came up with this!https://www.privacyrights.org/ar/Alert-FS15.htmMan I am pissed.

author: TheElectricChicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 01:58:21 am
content: Quote from: Falcon69 on August 26, 2015, 01:49:46 amYeah, I think the basic idea here is that 'they' have become such completely obvious criminals in the public eye, that 'they' want to do everything they can to help the rise of the old time petty criminals, the tommy gun gangsters, the razor gangs, the people to cross the street for so they don't electronically rob you blind with that thing that looks like a mobile phone. That way you won't be thinking that 'they' are such big criminals after all. what do you think ?

author: Delta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 01:58:56 am
content: Quote from: TheElectricChicken on August 26, 2015, 01:10:04 amI assume you always pay cash for your weekly supply of tinfoil?And please stop using large and/or coloured text. Cheers.

author: TheElectricChicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 02:10:16 am
content: Quote from: Delta on August 26, 2015, 01:58:56 amactually I was trying to help people who are just skimming the page to notice that particular part. Thank you for copying it onto this page, it doubles the chances that people will see it.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 02:31:49 am
content: Quote from: Falcon69 on August 26, 2015, 01:49:46 amYou should check your Client Agreement first to see what is there, i.e. yours/their liability. It may well be they take all risk and you will not be liable if fraud happens. Still, they should have had a much smaller limit without requiring a PIN, i.e. not more than $100.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 02:41:39 am
content: For Credit Card Purchases....If it is under $50, just swipe and go, over $50 a Signature is required. That is it.With all the identity theft problems the World faces today, you think these people in office would make it harder for people to steal your identity and money. Seems to me they are making it easier.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 02:42:27 am
content: Quote from: TheElectricChicken on August 26, 2015, 01:07:00 amI have seen a lot of hype and bullshit flying around generated by such 'experts'. Visa's intention could have been just to try to stop the next hype because they spend resources/time to deal with misleading claims which spread like a fire.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 02:45:51 am
content: Quote from: Falcon69 on August 26, 2015, 02:41:39 amSo that is what Chip is for, but sadly US is behind everyone else to convert payment cards to chip.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 02:53:06 am
content: Quote from: TheElectricChicken on August 26, 2015, 01:10:04 amSorry this is BS, please feel free to prove me wrong, as an RF guy I sincerely want to see a demo of a 13.56MHz contactless card being read from several meters distance.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 02:57:10 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on September 01, 2014, 09:12:16 amI think you've got a couple of decades at least on me and I think I'm sooo much older than you in that respect. I use cash whenever possible out of preference and paranoia and would not trust another payment method I can use with only one type of verification. If you don't need a PIN to access your cash no one else does. And I can't help but believe that if you haven't heard about exploits that just means they're being kept on the down low.Quote from: Towger on August 31, 2014, 07:38:12 amQuote from: Bud on August 26, 2015, 02:45:51 amOh come on. As much as I love a bit of banter that claim has got to be people seriously extracting the urine.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 03:18:31 am
content: It is true for Oregon, Washington it's $25 and under. Just swipe, prints receipt, and go. (or maybe it's $50 Washington, $25 Oregon, I forgot)Getting carded sucks, but when it's my money, I prefer to be carded for my ID every time....but they just don't ask. It's hell trying to prove that you didn't make a charge, and because the card wasn't reported stolen at the time or before the time the charge was made, I would still be responsible for the charge. It's tough to try and prove it wasn't you.And yes, I agree. The US is behind the times in a lot of things, just not this. Education is another one I can think of, but that is a whole 'nother thread.

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 05:35:59 am
content: Interesting, I wonder if this will become common. They still need the card though. An interesting design in any type of keypad application would be a small heater inside that starts to heat random buttons as soon as you press one.As a slight note, that case looks pretty interesting. It's nice to see accessories like this becoming available, might get prices of thermal imaging down.

author: Falcon69
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 05:54:26 am
content: I wonder if it sees through walls. I could just see a kid sneaking out for the night, to come home to a parent waiting by the front door for him/her. If he had this, he would know if it was safe to open the doors and sneak back up to his/her room.And yes, I speak from experience, on a number of occasions.

author: TheElectricChicken
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 06:07:44 am
content: Quote from: Falcon69 on August 26, 2015, 05:54:26 amOh there is a "Unfortunately bad use of technology" Mom and Dad in the USA get a firearm in their house 'to protect their family' then kid comes home later than their deadline and doesn't want to get yelled at and so sneaks into the house. Mom and Dad hear someone breaking into their home, get the gun, go downstairs where it's dark and then blow their kid away. Thousands of times that's happened. So typical in the USA, I won't make you throw up with pics of the ones who have been badly maimed by their parents use of firearm technology (and survived).

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 06:45:18 am
content: I've heard horror stories of that too. In 'murika you shoot and then ask questions later. I can't imagine discharging a firearm in my own house, even if I knew it was a bad guy I'd hate the kind of damage and mess it would make.But no I don't think you can see through walls with a IR gun. Now if the person is leaning against the door and the heat starts to transfer through the insulation you might but it would take a while for that to happen depending on the R value of the door. Some of the really good doors have as good of an R value as walls if better. They are very good for checking for bad insulation spots in your walls though. Use it on a -30 day with zero wind and no sun for best results.At least that's my understanding of how IR tech work.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 10:38:41 am
content: Quote from: Red Squirrel on August 26, 2015, 06:45:18 amHollow points generally don't leave an exit hole ;-) Just don't shoot the offender over carpet, the entry hole bleeds like a bitch.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2015, 05:21:28 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on August 26, 2015, 12:59:38 amHmm, that looks like a pretty good solution, should be very secure if implemented correctly. People are always the weakest link, not much you can do about that, but you can improve the technology at least. I haven't seen anyone using NFC around here, but I would worry about smartphones used for payments since they are so easy to hack.