Linux gains another new user! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 03:57:33 am
content: https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/lockheed-martin-taps-red-hat-accelerate-f-22-raptor-upgrades#By working with the Red Hat Open Innovation Labs team, we changed everything ‒ our toolchain, our process, and most importantly, our culture. With our new culture firmly rooted in DevSecOps and agile, and a more flexible platform based on Red Hat OpenShift Container Platform, the F-22 team will continue its work to ensure the Raptor meets America’s defense needs.Press webcastRed Hat will host a press conference live from Red Hat Summit at 11 a.m. EDT on Wednesday, May 8. Following remarks, press and analysts are invited to participate in a live question and answer session.To register for the press conference or view the replay after the event, visithttps://onlinexperiences.com/Launch/QReg/ShowUUID=45D50AF9-7E2C-4F8C-8606-B85EBDA927ACI guess this is one of the reasons that IBM recently paid $35 BILLION USD for RedHat ?

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 04:51:02 am
content: Sorry to one-up you, buthttps://www.theverge.com/2019/5/6/18534687/microsoft-windows-10-linux-kernel-featureQuoteI guess pigs can finally fly...

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 04:56:59 am
content: What's the point? If you want to run Linux why do it through Windows? The only reason almost anyone runs Windows is the huge library of legacy Windows software.

author: jeremy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 05:00:18 am
content: I think that it has become clear to Microsoft that Linux is superior to Windows in some areas, and to try and slow the loss of users they are trying to set up a “have your cake and eat it too” scenario.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 05:04:40 am
content: It's an interesting idea, but it seems like the worst of both worlds. You get the draconian user-hostility of Windows with what is likely a less flexible and less compatible implementation of Linux.

author: magic
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 09:27:50 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 07, 2019, 04:56:59 amThis exactly.Particularly if you are a company with some in-house custom software running on Windows which would take years and millions to replace but now you also want to run some open source database or whatever, perhaps on the same machine to speed communications between them or save on hardware costs.Besides, what else can Microsoft do? They used to make money by the virtue of "all" software being written for Windows. Now there exists software written solely for Linux or Unix, particularly in the business sphere which Microsoft expands into as the desktop market is eaten by phones, and they have to become relevant on that sort of market, somehow.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 10:23:37 am
content: Quote from: techman-001 on May 07, 2019, 03:57:33 amNot quite. It doesn't say Lockheed uses Linux. It just says that Redhat has been teaching the developers to work in a more agile way of doing software development (let's not start a discussion on that though).

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 10:51:20 am
content: Quote

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 10:58:35 am
content: Interesting. To me this is a move that resembles the Android OS development. Linux kernel at its core but heavily modified on its shell.Microsoft can capitalize on the benefits and lower cost of the community-driven source code while selling what matters to most desktop users: the UI.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 03:55:20 pm
content: Unfortunately the UI is something that Microsoft has become one of the worst at in the industry. For a long time they were making steady progress, getting better and better, then they got obsessed with the ribbon, then Windows 8 came along and it's been downhill ever since. Windows 10 has the most hideously ugly UI of any modern operating system. It looks like a quick wireframe mockup with inconsistencies everywhere. It has the same issues that open source software had 20 years ago.

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 04:27:20 pm
content: Quote from: jeremy on May 07, 2019, 04:51:02 amPeople don't switch to Linux because they want Linux kernel. People switch to Linux to get rid of Windows 10.

author: pelule
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 05:10:05 pm
content: QuoteAt least in Microsoft commertials and demos.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 05:47:19 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on May 07, 2019, 04:27:20 pmRemove '10' and add ' to get actual work done'.

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 07, 2019, 10:54:48 pm
content: Great, big momma is baking another Win 10 ice cream cake,this time with Linux cookies crumbled on top..yummThat should please everyone, I think

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 08, 2019, 12:22:57 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on May 07, 2019, 10:54:48 pmWindows 10 icecream cake is melting in the darkAll the bitter BSODs are flowing downSomeone left that POS out in the rainAnd I don't think I can take it`Cause it took so long to bake itAnd I'll never have that recipe again !

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 09:14:23 am
content: Nice one Mr. Harris

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 09:25:12 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on May 09, 2019, 09:14:23 am

author: malagas_on_fire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 09:27:20 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on May 07, 2019, 10:58:35 amYep thats the point ... the MS payed to have a seat on the meetings regarding to the priority updates changes on the linux kernel development for a good reason

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 10:47:39 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 07, 2019, 03:55:20 pmI dislike the Windows 8/10 Metro interface but, once it is removed, the interface has a resemblance to the Windows 7 interface that still keeps the average user ok with it. Many core details are still there, such as the "Start Menu", the basic arrangement of Documents/Downloads/Pictures/Videos folders, the look and feel of the toolbar at the bottom of the screen, the ability to slap files in the Desktop, etc. Obviously that many other aspects are quite inconsistent and missing, especially if you need to customize it (Control Panel and Settings, really?!?) but the UI has none of the issues present on the window managers of 20, 25 years ago in Linux land. These were truly appalling and had severe usability impairments such as dialog boxes with not enough size to accommodate its contents (with those scrolling bars) or error boxes that were hidden behind the dialog box that originated them (kill -9 was the only way out). The newer KDE and Gnome were better designed but very slow and hungry in resources. Linux came a very long way but one of its most popular distros for the average user (ubuntu) shares a very similar confusing UI.I dislike the ribbon interface as well, but it has been in use for more than ten years and I can tell from experience that the average user has gotten used to it.

author: dzseki
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 10:59:33 am
content: Quote from: techman-001 on May 07, 2019, 03:57:33 amSince that aircraft is not even in production anymore, I can imagine not that many people working on it anyway...

author: malagas_on_fire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 11:07:38 am
content: To be honest and sorry to be pedantic but metro became Tiles and it is quite simple to use, you press Win, shorcuts appears, one click. Also is very suitable for touch models. Never tried the gnome interface on touch PC

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 12:58:08 pm
content: Quote from: malagas_on_fire on May 09, 2019, 11:07:38 amYes, I agree it is easy - I was focusing on the migration path for existing users.One important aspect is that such new interface has to cater to new audiences - people that grew up with touch interfaces and ever connected devices will not be as bothered as someone that came from earlier computing days.I personally thought the Start menu on Win95 was an abomination when compared to the traditional multi-window view of the Windows 3.11. I also hated its task bar - the one in the OS/2 was much better (similar to what exists in macOS). But I adapted.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 01:56:05 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 07, 2019, 04:56:59 amIt’s the same reason that the UNIX underpinnings of Mac OS X proved to be a HUGE boon to developers and power users: one system that could run both a full ecosystem of mature commercial desktop applications AND the whole world of *NIX software, including all the open source stuff. (And later when it moved to Intel, being able to run Windows in a VM completed the trifecta.) There’s surprising value in, for example, being able to combine AppleScript and the UNIX command line, to let native Mac GUI apps and command line stuff script each other.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 05:02:34 pm
content: If only Apple would license their OS to run on third party hardware. I have an employer issued Macbook Pro and the OS is fantastic, it has really grown on me. The hardware is crippled by form over function compromise to the point that calling it a "Pro" machine is absurd. They've sacrificed battery capacity and expandability to make it much thinner than it needs to be, I can't even get through a full work day on a charge. Meanwhile my personal 4 year old Lenovo easily runs 12 hours of casual use. The Macbook is crazy thin to the point that it's awkward to carry, there is simply no benefit other than fashion. I refuse to invest my own money in that ecosystem to be tied down to a choice of just 2 or 3 laptops that all share the same flaws. Yes I know there's the hackintosh option but I don't want to rely on that for getting real work done.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 09, 2019, 11:25:18 pm
content: We got for work a Macbook Pro in 2015 and the major factor that we chose this model was due to the fact it had USB3 and HDMI ports on the machine - i.e., before the dongle frenzy. Any later machine had the lightning ports and I feel I dodged a bullet. The battery life on this computer is absokutely fantastic.It is sad they went downhill from that.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 03:54:24 am
content: The Windows Subsystem for Linux is splendid for Zynq development. The FPGA part needs Windows and the AP part needs Linux. Now I can have both running on the same system without VM’s.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 04:01:43 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 09, 2019, 05:02:34 pmJust Hackintosh it.* Gigabyte Ultra Durable series motherboards for Intel processors works well with macOS and requires minimal patching.* macOS has native support for recent AMD graphics cards like RX 470 and RX 580. Those cards are extremely cheap now on the used market after Etherum ASIC miners showed up, forcing cryptocurrency miners to dump them.* There are adapter boards that allows you to put a genuine Apple Wireless module into a PCIe slot as an AIC allowing native Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, Handoff and Continuity to work.* NVMe storage works out of box and macOS can boot from there.* Fusion Drive allows you to combine the speed of SSD with the high capacity of HDD.* macOS has the best HiDPI support if you use a 4K monitor.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 05:07:16 am
content: I don't want another desktop, I do 95% of my computing on laptops so I'm not stuck in a specific location. I've hackintoshed a few machines just for fun but it was always a lot of dicking around and none have ever really worked 100%, there's always some onboard peripheral there's no driver for and then when it comes time to upgrade to a newer version of the OS all bets are off and you have to go through the same thing again. On top of that, it's technically illegal. It's fun to do but I don't want the hassle for a daily driver, it's easier to just run Linux.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 05:47:05 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 10, 2019, 05:07:16 amHackintoshing requires research and experimenting, but usually once you have a stable setup you lock it down in the installation of Clover and almost hassle-free before the next major release. My daily driver is a Hackintosh BTW. (And Hackintoshing is the only way to fix the Intel 9-series motherboard XHCI endpoint bug.)

author: Electro Detective
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 09:04:01 am
content: It was Frankenmacfun for a while chasing up hardware that would work with both Win and 'tosh, and get a dual, triple, quad boot thing happeningwithout the grey Ghostbusters no go logo appearing (GSOD),but the few times that the lot actually worked natively without fussy boot and kext pre-dramas, an update or upgrade would send it south,so you basically had to freeze operations for that Mac version only,which is ok I suppose, if you like old school desktop Maccing on the cheap.Does Apple even do desktops nowadays or just shiny anorexic rectangular frisbees devoid of portsfwiw, those Frankentosh boxes have been restored back to their OEM Win 7 splendor and dual booting with Linux,because there's efficient serious computing to be done

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 09:45:37 am
content: Quote from: Electro Detective on May 10, 2019, 09:04:01 amI just single boot macOS on my Hackintosh. The storage setup is too complicated for dual booting anyway, and I have a second machine as my Windows box.If you started with a motherboard with good compatibility with macOS the whole experience would be a lot nicer. I have the feeling that Gigabyte Ultra Durable series motherboards with Realtek networking and audio chips have the highest success rate for Hackintosh success.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 06:40:01 pm
content: But again that only applies to desktops, if you want a laptop the choices are much more limited. If Apple would just license the OS for third party hardware then we could have a much larger range of choices and much less hacking needed. I don't want to invest in an ecosystem only to have Apple change to a new hardware architecture or incorporate features that make it impossible to run on commodity hardware. Having spent some time doing it, I decided some time back that it's not worth it to me for a daily driver PC. I want to be able to just install the OS and have it work, without having to carefully select my hardware to be compatible and make a bunch of tweaks and hacks, and have to worry about updates breaking the whole thing.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 10, 2019, 11:08:07 pm
content: The thing is, if Apple licensed Mac OS (again), they'd either have to require strict adherence to Apple requirements to ensure compatibility (thus defeating the goal of flexibility), or they'd have to sacrifice some stability and compatibility, which for me as a user is a major reason for using the Mac to begin with. So I don't really think it's a good option.With that said, I'm also really frustrated with Apple's Mac hardware offerings right now. None of the laptops they sell now would work for me due to the butterfly keyboard (which, even if it had no reliability problems, has key haptics that are wholly incompatible with my hand problems), and I really, really want a desktop with drive bays. (My daily drivers are a 2012 MacBook Air and a 2008 Mac Pro.) None of the desktop offerings now appeal to me. :/

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2019, 03:17:13 am
content: Quote from: tooki on May 10, 2019, 11:08:07 pmThere is a reason why the mid-2012 MacBook Pro non-Retina is regarded as the best MacBook Pro. It is the last MacBook Pro before Apple soldered everything to the motherboard and still had the original key mechanism. Also it has an optical drive and swappable hard drive bay.Speaking of your Mac Pro, you have an upgrade path and it won't cost a lot. The 2008 and 2009 Mac Pro are similar enough that their firmware are compatible. You can force flash 2009 MacPro5,1 firmware into your 2008 MacPro4,1 machine to gain a higher maximum memory capacity and support for hexa-core Intel Xeons. With MacPro5,1 firmware you can go with Xeon X5680's or X5690's, 6-core chips with 3.33/3.46GHz clock speeds, and put 48GB of memory on each CPU socket as 3 sticks of 16GB DDR3-1333 memory, all of which very cheap now if buying used on eBay. Latest versions of macOS High Sierra and macOS Mojave comes with AMD Radeon RX series graphics drivers, supporting up to a Vega 64 and includes the ridiculously cheap RX 470 and RX 480. A dual-processor MacPro5,1 with dual Xeon X5690, 96GB of RAM and a Vega 64 graphics card is the third fastest Mac ever in mid 2019, only topped by the 12-core 2013 Mac Pro and the 18-core 2018 iMac Pro, and it don't thermal throttle like modern Apple products. There are people selling MacBook Pro Wi-Fi and Bluetooth modules on adapter cards suitable for Mac Pro, allowing you access to modern features like 802.11ac Wi-Fi, Bluetooth 4.1 with BLE, Handoff and Continuity. macOS Mojave also supports things like NVMe SSD on PCIe adapter cards, generic USB 3.0 cards and the like for more modern amenities.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2019, 03:40:34 am
content: Alas, you’ve got it slightly wrong. The 2008 is the 3,1. It’s too different. It’s the 2009 4,1 that can be flashed to the 5,1 firmware to turn it into a 2010 version. Now, there is a tool to install Mojave onto a 3,1, but it’ll lose WiFi (which I don’t really care about). But the real problem in my case is that I have an upgraded, Metal-capable AMD graphics card in it, and Mojave’s AMD Metal drivers require some newer CPU instructions that aren’t present in the 3,1’s Xeons (E5462, I think, without checking). So I’d have to get a new NVIDIA graphics card (or reinstall the old, hellishly loud 8800GT I originally got with it).Indeed, one upgrade path I have considered is simply buying a used 4,1 or 5,1.(I’ve already added USB 3, an SSD, and the upgraded GPU. But I’m reluctant to invest any more in the 3,1 because it’s already literally let out the magic smoke: one of the RAM riser cards literally went up in smoke, taking 10GB of RAM with it. I’m not willing to do any swapping around to see whether the fault is on the motherboard or the riser, since I don’t want to risk frying the surviving 16GB and riser. It uses 800MHz FB-DIMMs with jumbo heatsinks, so not nearly as easy or cheap to find as DDR3...)

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2019, 06:43:50 am
content: Quote from: tooki on May 11, 2019, 03:40:34 amYou need to buy that Wi-Fi and Bluetooth upgrade module if you want to keep Wi-Fi on newer OS. Those module is an adapter that has a Wi-Fi card from something like an 2013 or 2014 MacBook Pro installed on it.Quote from: tooki on May 11, 2019, 03:40:34 amAnd you get to keep all the newer hardware you put in there after the move to MacPro4,1 or MacPro5,1. Also the used server gear market will help you too for replacement parts like that Xeon upgrade and 16GB DDR3-1333 memory sticks. Those cheap graphics cards comes from dismantled cryptocurrency mining rigs though.Quote from: tooki on May 11, 2019, 03:40:34 amFB-DIMM are something I am not willing to touch. That is some expensive memory tech and it is known to run hot with high failure rate.As of SSD I am talking NVMe SSD, the ones you plug into the PCIe slots. Those PCIe SSD are blazingly fast thanks to its Flash-optimized protocol design and direct use of PCIe. If you need a lot of space macOS even allows Fusion Drive across that NVMe SSD and a SATA hard disk.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2019, 10:02:09 am
content: Quote from: technix on May 11, 2019, 06:43:50 amI know. I didn't write every single thing I know.I actually am aware of all the upgrade options (I never said I didn't), just that I am annoyed that Apple has no sensible upgrade path (as in, to a new system) at the moment.Quote from: technix on May 11, 2019, 06:43:50 amYes, being able to use the existing upgrades is one of the attractive features of moving to a 4,1/5,1.Quote from: technix on May 11, 2019, 06:43:50 amIndeed. It also never really came down in price very much. FB-DIMMs cost almost as much now as they did when new.Quote from: technix on May 11, 2019, 06:43:50 amI know. But back when I got the SSD, PCIe SSD was still an insanely expensive option, whereas a SATA SSD was much cheaper and still provided a huge performance boost!At this point, I think I'm done investing in the 3,1 (esp. since it's literally starting to die, as I said), so I'm not gonna upgrade it to a faster SSD.As for fusion, it's not something that ever really interested me, since I know how to move data. My biggest type of data is iTunes (TV, movies, podcasts, in particular), so in the Mac Pro, it's always had its own dedicated hard disk! (I currently have a 500MB SSD, a 4TB drive for iTunes, and an 8TB drive for Time Machine, plus a USB 8TB for off-site Time Machine.) So really, the boot SSD only has to have the OS and apps on it, and I prefer to have my photo library (which is under 100GB at the moment) for speed. So I'm well served without joining the SSD and HDD into a single volume.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 11, 2019, 12:45:07 pm
content: Quote from: technix on May 10, 2019, 03:54:24 amAFAIK Vivado is natively developed under Linux, but has a Windows compatible version available, too. Why would a Zynq FPGA part need Windows?

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2019, 06:48:18 am
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on May 11, 2019, 12:45:07 pmVivado lacked proper screen scaling - in fact screen scaling under Linux overall is terrible. I have a 24-inch 4K monitor, without proper screen scaling nothing is readable. This is why at least for me the only way to use Vivado is use the Windows version, and rely on the (thankfully very improved) screen scaling implemented in Windows 10. This is also my daily driver is a Hackintosh, as macOS is the single OS that deals with screen scaling the best.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2019, 06:54:10 am
content: Quote from: tooki on May 11, 2019, 10:02:09 amThe whole selling point of Fusion Drive is that you don't need to bother with moving data, the OS at a filesystem level (APFS Fusion) or block level (CoreStorage/HFS+ Fusion) handles the moving of data for you. I have a 512GB Samsung 960 Pro NVMe SSD and a 2TB WD Green in my Hackintosh, set up as a single 2.5TB Fusion volume.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2019, 07:10:48 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 07, 2019, 04:56:59 amFrom Microsoft's perspective, the point might be this?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguishIt's an approach Microsoft has repeatedly used in the past. They might think about trying the same again: Extend "their" flavor of Linux by an MS-specific UI or whatnot, and try to lock users into that. Just speculating, of course.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2019, 01:37:36 pm
content: Quote from: technix on May 12, 2019, 06:54:10 amI know what it is and how it works. It just doesn’t solve any need I have and in fact would make things worse*, and adds under-the-hood complexity that makes maintenance more difficult. (I used to be a Mac onsite support consultant, I’m not the novice I think you assume me to be.) I don’t think you’re understanding that just because it’s right for you doesn’t make it right for me.*It would cause me extra work, to move the iTunes library back onto the boot disk, for which I’d have to have an extra disk, since creating a Fusion drive is a destructive process, so I couldn’t just merge the existing disks. And in the end, it would accomplishnothingfor me. Iknowthat the iTunes stuff doesn’t need to be on an SSD, ever. Fusion might notice that I listen to some songs regularly and move them to SSD (which doesn’t help anything), and that I rarely use my photo library and move it to the hard disk, where its performance would suffer tremendously.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2019, 09:36:37 pm
content: Quote from: technix on May 12, 2019, 06:48:18 amI've heard people complain about this sort of thing but personally I find scaling annoying in most cases, if you get a higher resolution monitor and then scale everything so it looks the same size then there is very little gain from a high resolution monitor. I want higher resolution to make everything smaller so I can fit more information on the same size display and because the resolution is sufficiently high, the small text is still readable. Back in the day when I ran 1600x1200 on a 20" CRT the UI elements of Win2k and XP got tiny and it was great, I could tile multiple programs and see everything at once without the constant switching and endless scrolling everything seems to require these days.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2019, 09:49:22 pm
content: With a 4K monitor (3840 x 2160) it will make everything about half the size you seen with the 1600x1200 on Win2k. Very, very small.Anyways, this is unrelated with Zynq or Vivado, and Linux can do scaling even better than windows, yet sometimes (depending on the video card, drivers and the windowing server) the scaling might be cumbersome to set.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2019, 10:04:07 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on May 12, 2019, 09:49:22 pmThe monitor is about twice the size so this seems pretty reasonable to me. The 4k monitors I've used were 27" and 30" 16:9, they feel like about twice the screen area as a 20" (~19" viewable) 4:3 CRT. It's great when there's room to tile four applications or VMs and still have space in the corner for an instant messaging client.With modern software I feel like I need about 4 times the pixels or more to display the same information compared to 15-20 years ago.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 12, 2019, 10:28:35 pm
content: You should also look at the dot-pitch. I prefer to have a dot pitch of over .25mm Below that lines get very thin. Otherwise you'll need to enlarge fonts and effectively undo the advantage of having a higher resolution. A monitor with 3840 pixels horizontally should be 96cm wide which makes a minimum of 43" for a 16:9 screen.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 13, 2019, 02:08:23 am
content: Quote from: technix on May 10, 2019, 03:54:24 amWSL worked fine for me at first and I even got X running on it. Then, a Windows 10 update got installed and broke it. Running SSH in the WSL shell caused Windows to BSOD every time.I went back to running Linux via VirtualBox in Seamless mode.

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2019, 02:54:25 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 12, 2019, 10:04:07 pmQuote from: nctnico on May 12, 2019, 10:28:35 pmMy monitor is Dell P2415Q, a 24-inch 3840x2160 monitor. This thing has a 183.6ppi pixel pitch, making it hard to read without screen scaling.Quote from: bitseeker on May 13, 2019, 02:08:23 amWindows 10 updates never broke my WSL installation. On the other hand WSL can use my full CPU and RAM for a parallel build.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2019, 03:01:41 am
content: In case anyone else runs into the BSOD with WSL, it looks like it's fixed in Win 10 release 1809. I still haven't received 1809 via Windows Update. Mine is 1803.https://github.com/Microsoft/WSL/issues/3916

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2019, 10:13:46 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on May 17, 2019, 03:01:41 amIt is DANGEROUS to upgrade from 1803 to 1809 due to a critical bug in the installer that may delete all your personal files. I installed Windows 10 version 1809 as part of a fresh install so it is a non-issue this way. If you have a new machine or if you can wipe the machine you can wipe it to install 1809 that way, or if you have a backup you can try the upgrade, otherwise it is better to wait for the next release which have the installer bug fixed.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2019, 03:29:51 pm
content: Are you referring to the file deletion bug that only affects OneDrive users who have their files on a different drive than C:? As far as I know, that was fixed not long after discovery.In any case, I don't use OneDrive, so no worry there.

author: malagas_on_fire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 17, 2019, 08:48:29 pm
content: lloollll One can use cloud web based page / app , or mountpoint davfs, cifs.... A lot of updates recently are coming more offen on debian based distros or really debian... hummmm That reminds me windows update. 20 security new fixes 20 security new breachesJust kidding

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 12:47:56 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on May 17, 2019, 03:29:51 pmIt may be an edge case, it may not affect you, it doesn't affect me, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a serious bug that did affect numerous people and it was discovered prior to the release. If they let a bug like that through, what other bugs are lurking and what new bugs will they let through later?What it ultimately comes down to is that after being a Windows user and general fan of MS products for many years, I flat out don't trust the platform anymore.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 01:48:10 am
content: All OSes suck, just in different ways. Nevertheless, I use Linux, Windows, OS X, Android, and iOS on a regular basis. I was getting clarification on which bug he was referring to.

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 01:53:41 am
content: Quote from: bitseeker on May 18, 2019, 01:48:10 amVery quotable!

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 18, 2019, 07:45:21 am
content: Just stick with the devil you know.I prefer that the masses continue to use windows and that Linux stays the domain for engineers.Also, windows acts as a very effective lightning rod for malware

author: technix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 08:10:43 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on May 18, 2019, 07:45:21 amSo in a server farm with Linux hosts, stick a Windows VM in there just in case?

author: malagas_on_fire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 22, 2019, 10:55:15 pm
content: Quote from: bitseeker on May 18, 2019, 01:48:10 amYep just pick the one that "bugs" you less for the given task.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 06:37:14 am
content: Quote from: technix on May 22, 2019, 08:10:43 pmFor servers it's another story. I was talking about the desktop, the only place where Linux isn't king.Practically all malware that targets desktop users, is targeted at windows desktops, because of the marketshare.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 10:24:42 pm
content: Quote from: technix on May 11, 2019, 03:17:13 amHas to be the the world record beating best bang for the computing buck ever, no matter what OS you use them for...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 23, 2019, 10:29:34 pm
content: Quote from: james_s on May 12, 2019, 09:36:37 pmModern design requires lots of air and space around each item. That's why you can only see 3 or 4 eBay items on a 24" monitor, when in the past you could see dozens even on a laptop.We are in the post-information age where people just want white space...

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 05:01:46 am
content: Thisisamodernpost

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 02:51:41 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on May 07, 2019, 10:51:20 amThe Linux community has been face-stomped by hordes of Windows users, all trying to learn everything there is to learn about Linux for about the last 15 YEARS, and sadly trying their best to make Linux like the Windows they were once familiar with.NO ONE 'switches back to Windows' who has been using Linux for a few months, that theory is a Windows fanboy fantasy. When Linux users discover the many Linux advantages (don't get me started) Windows starts to look like the expensive, bug ridden, barren wasteland it always has been.Sadly now that Linux has become the MOST COMMON OS on Earth, us poor old FreeBSD trolls are being invaded by legions of Linux users who don't like the commercialism of Linux or Systemd or 100 other reasons. It's just like the Great Windows Diaspora to Linux 15 years earlier.For those Windows users who think I'm crazy with my claim above, remember Samsung ? they were registering1.5 MILLION NEW ANDROID PHONES A DAY, just for their Galaxy model in it's heyday. And we all know what OS Android runs right ?

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 03:08:42 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on May 23, 2019, 06:37:14 amIf "marketshare was the vector for malware, then Android phones and Iphones which number in the *billions* would have the same malware issues that Windows has, but they don't.I agree that Windows is very common on the desktop, but that's only because of the Microsoft predatory and illegal market practices. It's certainly not because Windows does one single thing that Unix can't, in fact the reverse is quite true.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 03:09:24 pm
content: Switching to Linux worked for Apple... why wouldn't it work for Microsoft? It could very well end up "making Windows great again".However - the virus writers and other nefarious characters would then concentrate all their efforts on Linux... that cannot possibly be good news.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 03:11:34 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on May 12, 2019, 07:10:48 amPretty good speculation in my opinion.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 04:19:36 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 24, 2019, 03:09:24 pmTechnically Apple didn't switch to Linux, they switched to the MACH Kernel and a FreeBSD userland (iirc), Given the requirements of Linux re the GPL I doubt Apple would have been interested as they're a commercial company.Linux coders have been studying and creating solutions for virus and trojans for decades. Back in 1997 there were about 6 viruses for Linux and all of them were created by Linux coders for study.But if you really want to spread a killer virus among Linux users, this one has the highest chance of success, because it gets around all the Linux security like a champion and erases the hard drive!WARNING: LETHAL LINUX VIRUS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hi, I'm a Linux virus, please email me to all your friends *first* then perform the following actions:1) Su to Root, because I can't harm your system if you don't (I only have control over files belonging to you)2) Enter the following as Root " rm -rf / " and wait for a few minutes, maybe make a nice cup of coffee ?3) reboot to a blank screen and laugh hysterically when you realize that *everything is gone*4) thanks for cooperating and have a great day!WARNING: LETHAL LINUX VIRUS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 09:37:06 pm
content: Quote from: techman-001 on May 24, 2019, 02:51:41 pmSure they do, I personally know several people who used Linux for a while and then switched back to Windows. Not necessarily because they thought Windows was better but because they needed to use software that only works properly under Windows. It's annoying but just a fact of life, if you need to use Photoshop because it has RAW support for your camera, if you have specialized hardware with Windows only drivers, if you need to use MS Office because your employer uses Exchange for email, if you're doing CAD/CAM work you pretty much have to run Windows.The whole purpse of an OS is to run software, most people use the OS required by the software they need, some may try a different OS and find that even if it is objectively superior, it won't work for them if it doesn't run their software.

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 24, 2019, 11:19:10 pm
content: Yep, it's all about the software.

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 12:10:30 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 24, 2019, 09:37:06 pmI love the speed and tunability of Linux but I still need to use Windows to run Office 365 suite to collaborate.Additionally many flavors of Linux mean difficulty with compatibility, especially with hardware drivers. I spend too much time when running Linux trying to alter configurations or recompile software to make drivers and programs work. I usually don't have that issue with Windows 10.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 02:01:51 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 24, 2019, 09:37:06 pmYour comments seem reasonable, but a bit cherry picked to me.1) Professional photo-work using RAW has always been the province of Apple not Windows, the rest of us do just fine with JPEG and Linux, or in my case FreeBSD. I own a Cannon D60 that I paid $8000 for back in 2000 and I've always been able to process the JPEGs from it on the GIMP under Linux or FreeBSD.2) I'm very sorry to hear that Microsoft Exchange can't send normal emails, how have they managed to communicate with anyone else in the world thus far ?Ah the old bogeyman, CAD. First a trip down memory lane.What do you think the GE turbine design and CAD storage systems ran in the early 60’s, what did engineers use to fab all the TTL chips, Z80’s, 6502’s ? It sure wasn’t MSDOS or Windows. Autodesk’s Maya software is one of the most popular 3D animation packages in the history of the craft but it was made by Silicon Graphics and ran on Unix before Autodesk acquired it. Now before you go on about Autocad, in 1990, General Dynamics Electric Boat Corp chose CATIA as its main 3D CAD tool to design the U.S. Navy’s Virginia class submarine, and CATIA which originally ran on mainframes, was moved to Unix in 1988. CATIA didn’t run on Windows NT until 1998.3) No one switches to Linux if they have Autocad and rely upon it. Because they know this, they don't try Linux at all, they know they are locked into Windows forever.I have a daughter who is a professional architect and she once told me that there are two kinds of Autocad in use in Australia in architects offices. The first kind of Autocad is ancient and on a few select PC's. This kind is fully legal and licensed. The second kind is the very latest Autocad on every PC, and this kind is a cracked version bought in Asia for $5 a copy. The latter kind probably live in fear of a raid by the BSAA especially after a employee has left and my be tempted by the BSAA "Dob in a software pirate, earn $10K" campaign.This love of Windows 'professional' software is fine and dandy while you have a cracked version of it but most people have no idea of the horrific cost of even upgrading Microsoft Excel across 500 PC's . That's one reason the NSW vehicle registry went to Linux and Openoffice a decade ago.Most home Windows users pirate Windows and the Windows software they use, how do I know ? ... Bill Gates once said so.If they had to actually pay for it, you may be surprised how fast they suddenly find that 'Linux is actually OK" and stop posting bullshit about how fabulous Windows is.So whilst of course it's always about the software, software is much the same between OS's unless you happen to be a Microsoft software salesman. Open Office is much like Excel, Gimp is much Like Photoshop, Kicad is much Like Altium (originally Protel), gEDA is much like Orcad schematic, Firefox is universally used even on Windows.Sure there are some extra bells and whistles and bugs that can take years to get fixed with Windows only commercial software, but what's the main glaring difference ?Kicad costs $0.00 Altium can cost $20,000 for a un-cracked, fully licensed, fully legal version. When I was using Protel in the early 90's, the schematic capture was $5000 AUD and the PCB layout was $5000 AUD.The low cost, the lack of maintaining and up-keeping a massive database of proprietary software license information across hundreds of PC's, the ability of employees to copy and take Free Software home to run on their home PC's completely legally is also a big motivator that shouldn't be overlooked regarding Free Software on Linux.I've run nothing but Linux from 1997 - 2016 on my workstation (FreeBSD since then), and I have never once had the slightest inclination or reason to 'go back to Windows' no matter how often Windows fanboys said I would.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 02:19:14 am
content: High end photography requires RAW files in order to get the full dynamic range for further processing - JPEG is good for the final result, but doesn't cut it in the initial stage.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 02:26:26 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 24, 2019, 09:37:06 pmThat is my experience as well - the message to newcomers that Linux is a "better" OS when compared to Windows becomes a major turnoff when their printer or wi-fi or application software does not work or is less polished.A regular user that is not technically inclined usually fails to see the "objective" benefits of one OS when compared to another - security, configurability are not perceived as important as things such as familiarity, UI smoothness, compatibility, etc.In the last 25 or so years I have coached several users to migrate to Linux at several points in distro maturity, and I can say the enthusiasts that saw the OS not only a mean to run their applications but also as an enticing challenge were the easiest to adopt. The vast majority bounced back to Windows / DOS.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 08:26:58 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on May 25, 2019, 02:26:26 amHow about when their Windows 'upgrade' bricks their PC like it did to hundreds of thousands of Win95 to Win98 users ? I remember meeting lots of very pissed off Windows users back then.I agree with you that expectations when not met, result in VERY unhappy users, be they existing Windows or new Linux users. Printers are ALWAYS trouble, you know it, I know it. Even when you have drivers, things often don't go as planned. I recently remotely installed a USB laser printer on a Linux users laptop 6000 miles away using remote Google Chrome on her end and Firefox on FreeBSD on mine. The hardest part was setting up CUPS.I also set up a 'quick link" on a Windows 10 laptop the same week to resolve a financial advisor program that came with installation instruction that were utterly wrong, the process was no fun because the Windows toolkit seems like nothing at all compared to Unix.I agree with you regarding familiarity, UI smoothness, compatibility, etc, and any user that is not technically inclined needs to either become technically inclined or be prepared to pay for the services of someone who is, in my opinion. Whether they use Windows or Linux or Apple, or anything really.Now we can compare anecdotes all day long, but all we will achieve is wearing out the bits in Dave's serverSo in parting, I'll leave you with 10 Trillion reasons why I think that Linux is the future of computing, and Windows is a moldy old dog that has long had its day.https://www.zdnet.com/article/ibms-red-hat-acquisition-moves-forward/"The Department of Justice has approved IBM's acquisition of Red Hat. Since IDC thinks Red Hat Enterprise Linux alone is expected to contribute to more than $10 trillion worth of global business revenues in 2019, IBM's $34 billion acquisition of Red Hat is looking better than ever."

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 09:10:13 am
content: Quote from: techman-001 on May 25, 2019, 02:01:51 amIt is obvious there are many people that consider this a religious question, and base their statements and choices on emotional responses. People cannot say anything positive about Windows because it is evil and whoever likes something about it is either also evil or stupid "because they cannot see they are mistaken, because there is only one true God, the Linux. It will set you free and absolve you of all your computing sins.."First, one fact: You DON'T USE LINUX. Linux is an Operating system. Operating system is a set of low level drivers, API-s to write applications, and a minimum set of tools to maintain peripherals and data.Only thing in Operating system that end user is actually using are partitioning utilities to set disks, commands that you use to manage your data, setup your networking and such. That is what end user USES in Linux. Other part of os is set of API-s (Application programing interfaces) and connected libraries. Those are not used by OS user, but are used byapplication developersto createend user applications. End user applications are things that end users are actually using. Those are programs that actually make computer useful, allowing us to do some real work on computer.Libre Office, CAD programs, etc.. These end user applications are reason why people buy computers. They don't buy it to install operating system, and then spend time copying files from one disk to another. That would be using Linux. I don't use Linux, or Windows. I boot computer into one of operating systems, and then start an actual application I need to accomplish my tasks.I couldn't care less what Operating system I use... During years, MS DOS, Xenix, SCO, Ultrix, VMS, TOS+GEM, Amiga OS, Risc-OS, MacOS in many incarnations, AIX 4- 7.2, Solaris, Windows 1.0 - 10, BSD, Linux(es)....I actually don't even remember all of them. Nor do I care. In the olden days, OS was basically delivered with hardware, much like IBM AIX or Apple is still doing. It was tightly integrated with hardware, and it was expected of you to simply learn it. And they all had stupid things and brilliant things.In 1995 MS hung a huge sign from Toronto CN Tower.. Welcome windows 95.. I came home from that trip with book about Linux that had Debian distro on a CD in it.It took me few days to install it, in those days you had to recompile kernel to add drivers for your devices... It was awesome to have something Unix like on my PC.And after few weeks of playing, I put Windows 95 back on my PC, because I had a work to do, and Linux was nice academic exercise but not useful without any application. X-eyes gets old in few minutes.I still use combination of Linuxes, AIX, and Windows in my work. In enterprise application space, where you either have some kind of web/java/database app servers, or some kind of custom written application, we use Linux/AIX predominantly. In desktop space it's Windows. And not because people are stupid. It is because it is where applications are. Those that people want to use.Not many people use Apple desktop platform, not even graphic designers and photographers anymore. Some of them are, but not if they want to control the cost. All today Macs are simple overpriced Intel PC's, and Adobe and the rest of them develop primarily for Win platform nowadays. And all the pro photographers are on the Adobe Lightroom/Photoshop combination, that works perfect on Win PC for half of the price. Switch pretty much happened few years after Apple switched to Intel.Nobody switches to Linux on desktop if they need to use anything real world, really. There are some pro apps that work on Linux, and if you are the lucky one to only need that, whoah, good for you.I check periodically, there is still less than 10% off apps I use that exist on Linux. So, for me, switching to Linux is not an option.You cannot compare Kicad to Altium. That is just funny. You can take Kicad and spend some time designing a board. And after a week, you managed to make a nice board. send gerbers and get back PCBs from board service. Great. You do this for a hobby, you have time, and you got your board. That is a proof that Kicad can do the same thing as Altium, right? No, unfortunately it is not.I could have made same board in half the time in some pro CAD. In Diptrace, I can draw several times faster than in Kicad. Because of how shortcuts, and workflow in general was made.That alone means I can make two boards at the same time you will spend "dicking around" in Kicad because of random choices about how they designed UI... And searching forums and youtube for basic instructions how something is done is not a replacement for up to date and detailed documentation.So when people are able to work just the same on Windows and Linux, because their user space is the same, then people will be able to switch to Linux without problem.And when Kicad is actually usable by end users (PCB designers) and answer to all questions in forums is not "we don't care for your opinion, we do this anyway we like, if you don't like it there is a source code and rewrite it yourself...", then we can talk that it can replace Altium in lower end. In meantime, you can look at it this way: some people are prepared to pay thousands of USD to avoid having to use Kicad for pro work because it is so painful. Your mileage may vary...I personally look forward to see if Kicad 6 will be good enough to switch. Because I would like to. I don't like giving money to Altium if I don't have to.And if it does, that would be one less app that prevents me from being able to freely choose which OS I'm using.Because right now I don't have a choice. Not really. I go where my applications are.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 11:08:39 am
content: Quote from: techman-001 on May 25, 2019, 08:26:58 amYeah, Windows really got people by surprise throughout its history - no contest about it. I wouldn't even go that far back - Windows 10 has been playing shenanigans with lots of users recently. However, back then there was no contest: Windows and Office packages walked hand in hand and the availability of pirated copies was a big leg up towards this adoption. The most remotely similar commercial package for *nix systems that was widely available was Staroffice, which helped when Sun made it free in 1999 or early 2000s. Also, for the teenagers and young adults, gaming was a death sentence to any inroads into Linux.Quote from: techman-001 on May 25, 2019, 08:26:58 amYes, Linux has been easy on the remote admin arena for a long time, but Windows has had the Remote Administration for a decade or so, and the Remote Desktop goes far back. Lately, I have been doing admin tasks on my mom's PC (5000 miles away) via a third party application (Teamviewer). Where there's a need, there's usually a chance an application developer will release something in Windows.Quote from: techman-001 on May 25, 2019, 08:26:58 amYes, paid services for computer repair is a real business. However, the number of friends and family (the "computer dude") that are knowledgeable about Windows is much higher (thus "free").Quote from: techman-001 on May 25, 2019, 08:26:58 amNo contest there - *nix is dominant on the enterprise arena, where the big money is made, but for the end user the challenges are more daunting. Besides, the use of computers is declining in favour of mobile phones and this may be part of the reason Microsoft is moving towards ingraining Linux into their OS.All in all, these are interesting shifts in the industry. I only hope we still have a choice at the end of the road.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 11:35:49 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on May 25, 2019, 11:08:39 amVery well put rsjsouza, I agree with every word you wrote.I always did all my remote Unix admin via Reverse SSH and hence a CLI, but in my old age I've become aware that more and more Linux admin requires a GUI. CUPS for instance is fine with a CLI to start but eventually insists on a GUI. I find this seriously annoying and believe it's very retrograde.Re email, about 6 years ago I noticed that a lot, probably 60% of all my emails (for equipment orders or tech support) were from Smart Phones, when all emails I received 12 years ago were from Windows PC's. These days most of my emails are from Smart Phones and it seems that many people no longer have a PC for email and browsing as that's done easily on a Smart Phone or tablet. I'm still running a Nokia N90 myself, Linux and QT, no festering Android tar pit monster in my phone !

author: bloguetronica
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 12:52:22 pm
content: Quote from: jeremy on May 07, 2019, 04:51:02 amSorry to bring you the bad news, but nobody who already uses Linux will switch to Windows because of that. Windows 10 is probably using a castrated kernel with no license to do so (that is, they are probably breaking the original license). The Microsoft plans to embrace, then extend (what?), only then to extinguish. They should be barred from doing any further modifications to the Linux kernel, and any modifications they already did should be rolled back (because they probably don't comply with the GPL). They are just like Monsanto: contaminating the world with GMO crap.Kind regards, Samuel Lourenço

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 01:05:15 pm
content: Windows still has a market share of about 90% on the desktop, MacOS 8%, Linux 2%. Commercial software/hardware will target windows since that's where the most users are. The end users choose windows because that's what the software/hardware they want uses (and what comes pre-installed when they buy a new computer).The only way to break that circle is if more people start using Linux. The bigger the market share the more interesting it gets for companies to port their software to Linux.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 01:14:51 pm
content: Quote from: apis on May 25, 2019, 01:05:15 pmWhy would we try to break that circle? Personally, I'm fine with 2% desktop share.All my hardware works out of the box, both at home and at work. I'm a professional electronics engineerand it's pretty rare that I have to start a virtual machine to run windows 7.Linux is designed by engineers, for engineers. For me it's ok if it stays that way, let the amateurs and hobbyists use windows if they want. I don't care.

author: soldar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 01:17:30 pm
content: Quote from: apis on May 25, 2019, 01:05:15 pmHow about the other way around? More people would start using Linux if it were more user friendly and had more software?Nobody wants to learn and memorize commands with tons of switches and options when they can have a GUI with buttons and menus and not have to learn and memorize anything.I am trying very hard to use Linux but it is a PITA and still has many issues.As has been said, people don't want to run any OS in particular, they want to run the software they want to run and then buy the hardware and OS that does that.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 01:31:54 pm
content: Quote from: apis on May 25, 2019, 01:05:15 pmPeople will never start using Linux more. You explained the reason in your post.Today you can ask for preinstalled OS to be Linux. I my country vendors actually often install Linux, because it makes their PC seem cheaper than competition.People don't care if it is Windows or Linux. They want one that runs their apps.When vendors of popular mainstream and professional software, all start making both Linux and Win version of the same applications, then people will have choiceRight now they don't. And there is no choice.As current Linux desktop marketshare is 2%, software vendors cannot afford to spend much more money for additional cost of supporting completely different platform.It is a viscous circle, unlikely to break spontaneously.Only way to break is to have large enough number of decent quality Open source apps that will be good (and usable) enough to serve as an alternative to paid apps.If that category reaches critical mass, so more people will have a alternative app that runs on Linux than it would possible.Right now we are nowhere close to that..

author: xrunner
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 01:35:37 pm
content: Well, I'm a ham radio guy. I have four Linux machines running almost 24/7 (1 w/Linux Mint and 4 Pis with Raspian) doing Seti@home, but I don't use them for anything else. Sure they do the internet OK and common tasks like the usual suspects. They even have some ham radio apps ported over from Windows.However, I don't plan on getting rid of my Windows 10 main computer. The logging program I use doesn't run on Linux, and there are no plans for them to port it over. Also many other programs I use are Windows only. The other thing is, most new and useful programs that come out that I seem to be interested in run under Windows, and I won't get rid of it until the opposite is true.You know, I help my older neighbors across the street with problems all the time on their Windows 10 computers. Many things obvious to us are still not understood by them. They can't even describe the problem to me in "proper" computer terms over the phone. I always have to go over there and try to look at what they are doing, so I can translate the problem into proper terminology (for me not them). Can you imagine suggesting to them to go to Linux. I'd be insane to suggest that to them.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 01:54:25 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on May 25, 2019, 01:14:51 pmWell said !When I started this topic, I named it "Linux gains another new user!" , not "Linux VS Windows so let's have a big flame war!"Windows and Apple advocates invited themselves here only to pontificate about their favorite non Linux OS and unequivocally claim that it's simply the ONLY OS that 'professionals' use. The irony is some had to claim that "for Linux users, Linux is a religion".These Windows fans also manage to completely ignore the fact that IBM paid $35 BILLION DOLLARS for Red Hat Linux and that they expect to make $10 TRILLION DOLLARS in 2019 from that. I may be wrong but I've always seen IBM as the pinnacle of professionalism, and that's a staggering amount of money.Maybe IBM knows what Karel, I and other Linux users here know about Linux ?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 01:57:45 pm
content: Quote from: techman-001 on May 25, 2019, 01:54:25 pmThat is because IBM uses it for servers and enterprise use. As I said I use Linux/AIX of that purpose too, pretty much exclusively.But none , NONE, of that will go towards and kind of desktop use..

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 02:54:36 pm
content: Quote from: xrunner on May 25, 2019, 01:35:37 pmI agree, use what's best for you. This topic isn't about converting Windows users, NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU USE ON THE DESKTOP, especially Linux users, and even less, FreeBSD users. The desktop is a minuscule market now, and PC sales have been dropping steadily for years. Microsoft totally OWN the PC Desktop market, it's all they have left, and their workers have to eat somehow until their AI-powered insights service starts earning a income.Of course if your neighbors own a Android or a Apple Smart Phone, even a old Nokia N9 like mine, then they own and have been using Unix since they acquired the phone as Unix utterly dominates the mobile phone market. But there is no need to upset then by informing them of the fact, it can be your secret.Oh Linux also dominates the tablet, E book reader and Chromebook market.Let's see, whats left. WiFI! now Windows will be going great there, I'm sure there are millions of Wifi access points running WINCE ?.. Oh, there isn't ? Sorry, my mistake. Ubiquiti make the cheapest and best Wifi gear around, and it's all embedded Linux (openwrt), they utterly dominate the consumer market. All their routers, managed switches, IP cameras, VOIP, everything they make is all embedded Linux. It's all American designed and made in China under their supervision. The CEO is a ex Apple engineer.How about Data Centers, Windows will be HUGE there I'm sure ? Oh, it's not, how can that be ?It seems that not having to pay a license to Microsoft for every one of the tens of thousands of cloud webservers in a Data Centre represents a MASSIVE amount of cash they just don't need to waste, and anyway, the Internet was and is built on Unix, not Windows.Ever used Google ? All Linux.Software Defined Radio ? Linux again.Before I go, I'm not a ham, but I've personally sold millions of dollars worth of Ubiquiti gear, specializing in Point to Point links of up to 30Km, tho the average was probably only 2 Km.I'm a big fan of the Windows only "Radio Mobile" program by Roger Coudé VE2DBE and used it now and again for topology analysis of WiFi P-MP links. It always ran perfectly under WINE on Linux. I've never used it on Windows. I don't have a Windows PC here, or Windows running on a VM, I haven't used Windows since 1997, why would I, I just don't need it.I also used SPLAT a lot, which being a FLOSS native Linux or Unix program allowed automation to make that job very easy. I'd enter in the addresses of each end of the P-P link and run a shell script I wrote, and up would pop the P-P topology map, the P-P path topology and a picture which I'd email the client. This is stuff you just can't do with Radio Mobile, being Windows it's all GUI and everything has to be laboriously (and profit killingly) hand entered. Yuk.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 04:19:42 pm
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on May 23, 2019, 10:24:42 pmMaybe if your electricity is free. 130W TDP for each CPU and the passmark score is about the same as the mobile i7 in my Plex server that has a 15W TDP and idles around 4W. Granted benchmarks are never ideal but at nearly 10x the power consumption I doubt it's anywhere near 10x as powerful.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 04:43:46 pm
content: Quote from: techman-001 on May 25, 2019, 02:01:51 amOf course they're cherry picked, you said "no one", I know several who did and stated the reasons why. A couple of them are photographers, one did switch to a Mac, the other to Windows, both of them use Photoshop and work with RAW files.I don't know what you're going on about with Exchange, of course Exchange can send ordinary emails, but how do you suppose people send those emails? If you work for a company that uses an Exchange server for their email then you run an email client that works with Exchange and that means Outlook. In recent years you can use the web based Outlook and indeed I did just that at a former job but the experience sucks compared to a proper desktop client. I'm guessing you have never worked in such an environment so I'll explain that Outlook is used not only for emails but it has a calendar and organizations using it typically send out all the meeting and event invites and they automatically block off time in the calendar and when you schedule a meeting you can see the availability of everyone else's calendar. I don't know about the rest of the world but this is very much entrenched in the US corporate culture. Having a job outweighs idealism for most people.CAD, well, I'm not a CAD expert but friends of mine run a CNC machine shop, one of the guys there is a Linux guy and they put in some effort to see if they could reasonably use a Linux infrastructure and it quickly became obvious that it was not feasible. Most of the machines use Windows embedded in the controllers, these are >$100K multi-axis machining centers. The software that talks to the machines is for Windows, the CAD packages that are suitable for their work are for Windows, Linux was looked at, it was not suitable for the shop because of the software, that's just how it is.Oh and I forgot what is probably the single biggest reason, gaming. A friend of mine is probably the most hardcore Linux guy I know, and even he gave in and built one Windows box that he uses for gaming. He tried for a while to be 100% Linux but a majority of the big titles that come out are Windows only. There's a chicken & egg problem there, no big publisher is going to take the time to release for Linux when it commands such a minuscule percentage of the desktop market, and without popular titles being released for the OS, it's going to be very hard for it to ever increase market share on the home desktop.Then another example is myself, ok I have not even tried to go 100% Linux and I have never completely given up and switched back but I have tried to shift toward it for day to day use numerous times, set up an extra laptop with it, start using it more and more, then sooner or later I find something I can't get it to do, I spend hours and hours troubleshooting and trying to get something simple working and eventually just give up and pull out my Win7 laptop. I have not entirely given up on Linux though, my Plex server is running it, I have numerous Raspberry Pis in various embedded applications running it. I have a couple extra laptops running Linux that are used as spare machines or when I'm in the mood to tinker. If I *HAD* to I'm pretty sure I could get by with Linux as my main OS, but since I have a licensed copy of Win7 on my current laptop I've got little momentum to, I quite like Win7 and it does what I need it to do.These are real world examples of people I personally know, this is not hypothetical stuff I'm making up. You said that nobody goes back and this shows that some do. That said, others are perfectly able to get by just using Linux. A couple years ago my mom's laptop was falling apart so I set her up with a newer one and went with Ubuntu Mate on it, she's computer illiterate and it has worked out just fine for her. It runs a web browser and word processor, she can do her emails, type the newsletter for her business and look up things online, it does everything she needs. There are lots and lots of people like my mom for whom Linux would work just fine, but they are not everybody. Moreover most of them simply don't care what operating system they have, they just buy a computer and use whatever it comes with. If I hadn't told my mom it was Linux I'm not sure she even would have noticed, she'd probably just assume it was a new version of Windows.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 04:52:25 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on May 25, 2019, 01:14:51 pmMy latest computer (purchased this year) wasn't supported out of the box, I had to wait for newer kernel. And even with the never kernel the fingerprint reader isn't supported and probably won't be for many years. Granted, the fingerprint reader is a gimmick and I don't need it but it shows that there is still a lot of hardware that isn't supported. And I would prefer if I never had to start a virtual machine to run windows. If Linux have a bigger market share it would get better software and hardware support, which would benefit all Linux users. Isn't that obviously a good things? People should use whatever they prefer of course, but Linux would definitely benefit from a larger user share.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 05:17:42 pm
content: Quote from: apis on May 25, 2019, 04:52:25 pmNot necessarily. If the Linux' desktop marketshare would become big enough to attract average joe's and housewifes,than hardware manufacturers will start to supply closed source drivers (like nvidia does).Not something that will benefit Linux. Also, malware and spyware will start to arrive at the Linux desktop.So, 2% desktop marketshare is perfect.If you really want to use Linux, then buy hardware that is Linux compatibel.I recently bought a Dell XPS 13 with Linux pre-installed. Everything is guaranteed to work.Almost all workstations and office pc's from Dell, Fujitsu-Siemens, Lenovo, etc. are Red Hat and/or SuSE certified.Just don't buy a laptop from the supermarket.

author: apis
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 05:32:26 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on May 25, 2019, 05:17:42 pmThat's a pretty elitist attitude. Pretty sure things would only improve with more users, except maybe the malware stuff.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 09:18:47 pm
content: I don't see anything elitist about it, he's not telling anyone not to use Linux, or suggesting in any way that anyone should be discouraged from doing so.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 10:14:24 pm
content: Quote from: apis on May 25, 2019, 04:52:25 pmYour latest Laptop you mean ? You had to install Linux yourself because it didn't come with Linux preinstalled, right ? If it had come with Linux preinstalled you wouldn't have had to "wait for a new kernel" ?And if Linux can't come preinstalled, how will it ever have a bigger share of the Laptop or PC market ? By "bigger" I mean greater than zero.Don't believe me ? Just paste 10 links from MAJOR sellers of NEW Laptops with Linux preinstalled ? Not a Chromebook tho, they aren't laptops. Oh and the Laptop has to be CHEAPER than the same thing in Windows, not the SAME price or even more expensive because no one is paying the "Windows Tax" right ?If you mean a larger share in the PC and Laptop market, you're dreaming, it can never happen until Microsoft is long gone. The reason is that Microsoft OWNS the PC and Laptop retail channels and have forever. They do this by threatening to withdraw the 'discount' that retailers enjoy on Windows OS if that retailer sells Linux devices because they will be in breach of contract. They will be in breach of contract because the sellers agree to not 'damage the Windows brand' as part of their contract for a discount, and as far as Microsoft is concerned, selling Linux alongside Windows, even displaying the Linux GUI screen in an advert is 'damaging the Windows brand"As if this near total unavailability of Linux Laptops isn't bad enough, some new Laptops come with Windows10 and a BIOS that will not allow replacing Windows with anything else. If you want to install Linux, even after paying the "Windows Tax" for a OS you're forced to pay for and don't want, then you have a horrific job ahead of you changing the locked BIOS for a open one.People don't know about Linux because they have never seen it in major stores alongside Windows and Apple Laptops.Contrary to the claims of some here that Windows is "popular", it's not. Windows is "common" because "popular" means "liked or admired by many people" but as Linux has been kept from retail stores by Microsoft's aggressive and illegal market practices, most people have never seen Linux to make a choice. As someone said in this thread, most people think Linux is just some version of Windows."Common" on the other hand describes Windows perfectly as it means "occurring, found, or done often; prevalent."Linux has been actively kept from all major stores by Microsoft since the EEEPC first appeared with explosive sales due to the much lower price than Windows.Until Microsoft is gone or starts shipping "Microsoft-Linux", anyone wanting a Linux Laptop or PC with Linux preinstalled will have to install Linux themselves, and even then techheads like all the good the folks here on EEVBLOG will chafe at paying $100+ extra for a OS they can get for free and install themselves.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 10:38:38 pm
content: Quote from: Karel on May 25, 2019, 01:14:51 pmThat is a pretty comical statement. You confused engineers with geeks.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 10:46:19 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on May 25, 2019, 10:38:38 pmActually Bud, you're the comedian here:Linus Torvalds is a Finnish-American software engineer and architect of the Linux operating system. Torvalds started writing Linux, an open UNIX-like kernel, while working on his master's degree while at the University of Helsinki.

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 25, 2019, 10:48:40 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on May 25, 2019, 10:38:38 pmYeah, in the industrial automation and IIOT world, Windows is still king.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 12:12:27 am
content: Quote from: windsmurf on May 25, 2019, 10:48:40 pmNow the whole Windows comedy team is here ...No, in the industrial automation world Windows is not King, it's barely a serf. Where did you ever get that idea ?No one in their right mind would ever let Windows control a flying guillotine where the "Blue Screen of Death" may literally describe what happened to the machine operator.

author: james_s
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 12:20:05 am
content: I wouldn't really want any operating system to control such a thing. Potentially dangerous hardware like that needs to be supervised by hardware, if there is code involved it should be a dedicated microcontroller operating in real time. If it stops receiving commands from the host system it needs to stop safely in a way that does not pose any risk to anyone. I'd trust Linux over Windows marginally, but I would never trust either to have full control over something like this. And to be fair, prior to the whole forced update nonsense I've found Windows stability to be comparable to Linux, I've had rock solid and somewhat flaky examples of each and almost always it comes down to the hardware and drivers and not the OS. Unfortunately all sides seem to have their fanboys who are unable to look at things objectively.

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 12:43:26 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 26, 2019, 12:20:05 amIt's not up to us, safety critical systems have a TON of requirements, seehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety-critical_systemYou obviously don't remember (or weren't born in) the days when Unix and VMS systems would run for *years* unattended, long before a fledgling newcomer, Microsoft Windows forced BSOD's, and unreliability onto industries everywhere.Windows has fanboys, Linux has users.

author: windsmurf
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 03:06:24 am
content: Quote from: techman-001 on May 26, 2019, 12:12:27 amEver heard of Beckhoff? According to you they must be out of their minds.https://www.beckhoff.com/twincat/

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 04:26:18 am
content: Quote from: windsmurf on May 26, 2019, 03:06:24 amNo, but after reading the specs I'm very impressed. Beckhoff is German and the product range look really, really well designed, but I'm not surprised because it isGerman.If you'd read some of the Beckhoff user manuals after Google returned Beckhoff hits for "windows and industrial automation" you'd have come across this :BECKHOFF3.1.1 Operating SystemTo run the TwinSAFE User, the following system requirements must be met depending on the operatingsystem.3.1.1.1 WindowsNo additional components are required for the operating system Windows 7 (32 bit).The following table lists the different versions of the TwinSAFE User and the associated SHA checksums.TwinSAFE_User.exe3.1.1.2 LinuxNo additional components are required for the operating system Ubuntu 16.04.The following table lists the different versions of the TwinSAFE User and the associated SHA checksums.TwinSAFE_User.binNow Windows is as unsuitable as Linux or Apple for *any* industrial controller (in PC workstation form), but they're all perfectly fine as a TERMINAL to PROGRAM a PLC and DISPLAY process control information from the PLC, but the PLC will internally run some embedded RTOS specially designed by engineers like Beckhoff with critical safety in mind, and all that entails, including special designs so that when the Windows PC gets infected with malware, it can't affect the PLC like Stuxnet did with the Iranian centrifuges. It's also possible that a embedded Linux real time system may be used in a PLC, something programmed in ADA with all the safeguards etc.... hopefully.

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 07:57:02 am
content: Quote from: Bud on May 25, 2019, 10:38:38 pmOver 13,500 developers from more than 1,300 companies have contributed to the Linux kernel since tracking began 11 years ago.The Top 10 organizations sponsoring Linux kernel development since the last report include Intel, Red Hat, Linaro, Samsung, SUSE, IBM, Renesas, Google, AMD, Texas Instruments and ARM.The rate of Linux development continues to increase, as does the number of developers and companies involved in the process.The number of unpaid developers continues its slow decline, as Linux kernel development proves an increasingly valuable skill sought by employers, ensuring experienced kernel developers do not stay unpaid for long.https://www2.thelinuxfoundation.org/linux-kernel-development-report-2016Quotehttps://thenewstack.io/contributes-linux-kernel/https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-September-2018-StatsQuotehttps://go.pardot.com/l/6342/2017-10-24/3xr3f2/6342/188781/Publication_LinuxKernelReport_2017.pdfThese companies don't strike me as geeks...

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 08:42:09 am
content: Quote from: Karel on May 25, 2019, 05:17:42 pmI passed your tip along to a friend who has been searching for a Linux suitable laptop for about the last 15 months. Based on her reply below, I'm assuming they really are Linux certified as they don't have any Nvidia cards, perhaps because of the non GPL Nvidia binary blob ? Given they also are very expensive, I guess they're not that popular based on price, and therefore no real threat to Windows. On the other hand if one can afford it, they sound perfect for Linux use because as you say, everything is guaranteed to work.* $2K+ and Intel graphics ?* $500 for them to put Linux on it is a bit much and the laptop is considerably less capable than a MSI one.* I'll toss another another drive in the MSI and install Linux myself.I have two old Circa 2002 Thinkpad X60s units with docking stations which are just fabulous apart from the ancient and lacklustre 1360x765 LCD screens. Installing Linux-MX on them is a 30 minute job (I've a slow Internet connection) but absolutely every single thing works *perfectly* afterwards. The keyboard sound and brightness keys, the lid shut suspend and lid open recovery. Frankly it isFLAWLESS.Using one of these precisely built units and typing on the real keyboard keys (I hate chicklets) is a exquisite pleasure.You'll have to pry those Linux Lappies out of my cold dead fingers if you want themConversely a Linux loving MD Doctor I know bought a brand new hi end Razor Gaming laptop with a I7 cpu and Windows10 preinstalled about 6 months ago. He's Linux Admin level with decades of experience and would have bought one with no OS if he could.When he went to install Linux it just refused to comply because of the BIOS. He was only able to install Linux after he had completely replaced laptop the BIOS with a Open one. I'm sure he really enjoyed loosing days of his valuable time doing that <NOT>.I guess the new touchy feely, oh so Open Source friendly Microsoft turns into a rabid, slobbering, starving Pit Bull Attack Dog if you go near any of their laptops ?

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 09:08:44 am
content: Quote from: techman-001 on May 26, 2019, 08:42:09 amhttps://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/workstations-isv-certified-dell/precision-3530/spd/precision-15-3530-laptop/xctop3530hwusThey start from $600

author: techman-001
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 26, 2019, 09:29:11 am
content: Quote from: Karel on May 26, 2019, 09:08:44 amThanks Karel, I've emailed your Dell pricing screen shot to her

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 02:06:06 am
content: Quote from: james_s on May 25, 2019, 04:19:42 pmThey don't idle at 130W, though... not sure what the idle is, but the fans are barely spinning.You can probably build a dual X5690 machine from eBay parts for around $500 - $800. The savings will buy a lot of electricity.Half the year is winter... in which case the electricity consumption is subtracted from the heating bill!

author: bitseeker
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2019, 04:06:32 am
content: Quote from: Karel on May 26, 2019, 09:08:44 amWow, check out that FUD: "The Operating System you've selected does not support Office Productivity Software."My, my. I didn't know I couldn't be productive on Linux.Translation: "Hey, we can't sell you MS Office if you use Linux. Change the OS! Change it now!"Reality: If you need true MS Office compatibility on Linux, you can use Office 365 in a browser. It's so much better than a few years ago.

author: malagas_on_fire
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2019, 11:00:31 pm
content: You can add below the office 365 anual licence from the webpage , up to 5 machineshttps://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/workstations-isv-certified-dell/precision-3530/spd/precision-15-3530-laptop/xctop3530hwus