Windshield Wiper Delay Circuit - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: ArTrvlr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 05:18:28 pm
content: I am restoring/updating a '50s car that originally had vacuum operated wipers. I will be replacing the vacuum system with an aftermarket electric wiper motor. I am replacing the original steering column with one from a later model GM vehicle with the wiper switch on the turn signal lever and want to use that switch to control the new motor, including the delay or intermittent function. This is the switch:https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71NNRQEHr3L._AC_SX679_.jpgThe new motor has three terminals, LO speed, HI speed and PARK. The wiper switch has 5 delay positions, each with a different resistance value. All the wiper motor needs to make a delay cycle is a short 12V pulse to start the motor, then continuous 12V to the park terminal which will turn the motor off in the park position through the internal park switch.I found this circuit diagramthat uses the same three terminal motor (I know the title says two leads, but if you look at the motor in the diagram, it has three leads). You can see how the normally closed relay powers the park terminal whenever the switch is off. It uses a 500K pot for the delay control instead of 5 fixed resistors. I have measured the resistance through the delay settings, 1-5. (Fluke 117 meter)1: .680 m2: 267.9k3: 149.5k4: 81.5k5: 35.9kMy questions are:Can this circuit be adapted to work with my 5 position switch? If so, what would I change?Is there a better way to do it? A 555 timer was suggested in myoriginal introduction post here.If you read that post you see I have no electronic experience. What I am looking for is help with resistor values and wattage levels for all the components. The load on the circuit will be the relay coils only. The coil load specs I have found are 150 - 160 mA.TIA

author: m3vuv
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 05:28:56 pm
content: is it speed control you want or intermitent wipe times?

author: ArTrvlr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 05:47:16 pm
content: Quote from: m3vuv onTodayat 05:28:56 pmJust the intermittent wipe times. The HI and LO speeds are just on/off switches.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 05:50:42 pm
content: Can you give the part number or year/make, there's many different variations of Chevrolet windshield wiper motors.The wiper motor internals - limit switches, relay, motor, park mode etc. are all over the place and that is the hardest part actually. I though Park was for luxury cars and later years.A little circuit with 555 timer or the two-transistor circuit you posted can be made to work.The new wand also need to know details of the wiper knob so a make/model helps there.edit: pic of how bizarre these systems can get

author: ArTrvlr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 07:31:01 pm
content: Info requested by user bdunham7 in my intro posthttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/new-user-introductioninterest-feeler/Quoting bdunham7:"I can probably help, but I'd need to know what year/model the new steering column came from"The steering column and switch are from a 2001 Chevy pickup. The switch is a AC Delco part number D6257C, GM # 26100839. This is the schematic of the wiper/washer system:8-485 Schematic-Wiper Washer Switch.pdf(495.66 kB - downloaded 153 times.)EDIT: I did something wrong, the attachment is at the end of the message.Again quoting bdunham7:"as well as the technical details on the replacement wiper motor."This is the wiring diagram for the new motor.That is the standard two speed switch that comes with the motor. The off position of the switch supplies 12 volts to the park terminal which operates the motor until the wipers return to the park position."The solution may be as easy as taking apart the wiper motor assembly from the steering column donor and extracting the control module circuitry."Great minds think alike! That was my first thought and the first thing I tried.I have the wiper motor module (GMs term for the motor with attached circuit board) from the same truck as the column and switch. I have tried to use just the circuit board (without the motor) wired to the switch as in the original vehicle. The circuit board has three terminals that plug into the motor. Bench testing shows them to be GROUND, HI speed and LO speed. I then wired the HI and LO speed outputs to relays to control the new motor. I do not yet have the new motor so used 12V bulbs to monitor the outputs, including one for the PARK circuit. HI and LO speed switch positions come on as expected. All delay positions will activate the LO speed. The problem is the circuit board is half of the park switch. The other half is a rotating contact on the motor that turns the motor off in the correct park position. Without those two halves together the motor LO terminal on the circuit board has 12V for appx. 6-10 seconds after the switch is in the off position. My guess is a timer on the board takes over. This is too much time to wait for wipers to go off and park. If this board could be modified to eliminate that delay to off, that would be my preferred solution.Next I soldered a wire to the LO speed output of the board and ran it through a hole in the board housing so I could reassemble it and have access to the LO speed output. HI speed is a direct board trace from the HI speed switch wire to the HI speed terminal, so no extra wire needed. I wired all this up to my mock up relays and bulbs and everything worked as expected. With the internal park switch now working power is restored to the PARK circuit for the new motor any time the switch is off. For this to work in the car I would have two wiper motors, one doing switching duty and the other working the wipers. It would work but seems a really crude solution.This is the diagram of that setup, except I used three bulbs where the new motor is shown.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 08:04:46 pm
content: Quote from: ArTrvlr on March 14, 2022, 07:31:01 pmPerhaps if you modified the board so that the park detection contact was permanently grounded or live (you'd have to measure what is present at the contact coming from the motor) you could fool the board into effectively thinking that the motor was always in the park position, and that might eliminate that extended run time.

author: ArTrvlr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 09:08:53 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on March 14, 2022, 08:04:46 pmI'll open the motor back up and do some checking.Here is the "Description and Operation" of the wiper/washer system from the GM service manual.8-511 Wiper Washer System.txt(4.76 kB - downloaded 57 times.)

author: ArTrvlr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 09:17:28 pm
content: Here are pictures of the circuit board in the truck wiper motor.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 14, 2022, 11:10:30 pm
content: It seems to me that replacing a 500k pot with a series of fixed resistances with maximum 680k is probably close enough.Given the progression of the values it seems they are used to control the charge rate, so with 680k instead of 500k the longest delay will be a little longer.Incidentally, I HATE this style of control of intermittent wipers! Controlling the trigger point with a voltage divider is soooo much nicer because if it starts to rain harder and you want it to wipe NOW then you just turn the control until a wipe happens, and next delay will be the same as the delay up to the point you forced it to trigger.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2022, 01:59:44 am
content: Would have been a cool project to make the original vacuum wipers intermittent.Couple of solenoid valves and a Hall effect "home" sensor.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2022, 03:29:49 am
content: Windshield wipers have a safety function, and pedal to the medal um oops you have pretty much nothing for vacuum.Neighbor's '78 Corvette, the pop-up headlights are vacuum operated and um passing a car on the highway they pop downIt gets dark. Might be a problem with a leak/reservoir but the car is insane for vacuum hoses under the hood no mechanic can handle it.OP, I can't quite follow what parts you are working with.The new wiper motor is an aftermarket '58 Oldsmobile wiper motor fromNew port Engineering?I can figure out the GM wiper pulse board but it looks like it needs a connection to the park switch.Where are you getting "T2" from? I don't have the module's connector pinout, but see some modules use "T1,T2,T3" to connect to the motor, others are "T4,T5,T7", and the Dorman board has no labels.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2022, 03:56:01 am
content: Quote from: ArTrvlr on March 14, 2022, 09:08:53 pmIt seems the wash function is being activated so there should be some way to hook it up differently and avoid that.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2022, 04:39:18 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 15, 2022, 03:29:49 amThis good?https://hips.hearstapps.com/autoweek/assets/s3fs-public/04%252520-%252520Mid-Eighties%252520Honda%252520CVCC%252520Hell%252520Boxes%252520-%252520Photo%252520by%252520Murilee%252520Martin.jpg

author: ArTrvlr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2022, 05:46:21 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on March 14, 2022, 08:04:46 pmI opened the truck motor up to check what goes on at the park contacts during operation.This is the circuit board:This is the disk for the park switch:I didn't really learn much, but maybe I didn't know what to look for. The spring loaded contact that rides on the center portion of the park disk has 12 volts when the switch is off. That is normal for a park switch for it to send power through the disk to the other contact until the disk rotates to the open section in the outer wipe, parking the wipers. When the switch is in any position that calls for LO speed operation there is appx. 1.5 volts on that same contact until the 6 second timer expires then it goes back to 12 volts. I also shorted the two contacts together which, as expected, turned on LO speed.As I said, I didn't learn anything, but maybe I am looking in the wrong place.

author: ArTrvlr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2022, 05:59:14 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 15, 2022, 03:29:49 amYes, that is the motor I refer to as "the new motor".My board has T1, T2 and T3. T1 is HI speed. T2 is LO speed and T3 is ground.

author: ArTrvlr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2022, 06:05:58 pm
content: Quote from: brucehoult on March 14, 2022, 11:10:30 pmThanks, that's one of the things I wasn't sure of. The other is selecting the right components for that circuit. The values and part numbers shown are obvious, but I don't know how to select from other specs. for those parts. For example wattage ratings for the resistors.

author: ArTrvlr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2022, 06:15:16 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 onTodayat 03:56:01 amThis could be it. The WASH switch does bypass the 24kresistor in the switch, but the lower voltage through the resistor could still be triggering that timer. I will disconnect the DK GRN wire going to Terminal D on the motor board and see what happens.Thanks.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2022, 09:55:55 pm
content: Quote from: ArTrvlr on March 15, 2022, 06:05:58 pmSmall!With only 12 V available, even the lowest value 35.9k resistor can only have at maximum 0.33 mA pushed through it, or 4 mW.

author: m3vuv
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2022, 10:19:04 pm
content: my advice would be scrap the crappy yank tank car and buy european,lets face it 99% of american cars are still dinosoars!, iron cylinder heads, live axles ,side camshafts steeering boxes,3 speed auto single didgit mpg,the list goes on!,do youreself a favor and give it to landfill!.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2022, 10:23:47 pm
content: Quote from: m3vuv on March 15, 2022, 10:19:04 pmYou're quite a few decades out of date.He's restoring a vehicle, presumably for the joy of it, not as a daily driver.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2022, 11:32:16 pm
content: ArTrvlr I was reverse-engineering the GM wiper board but ran out of time. It's hard because of so many models and no decent vehicle wiring diagrams. Maybe later today or tomorrow I can post a schematic.The Newport wiper motor must have a park switch in it.GM Wiper boards with 6-pin connectors appear to drive the washer pump, with the one button touch.Nothing should connect directly to Battery, your schematic shows "B" going there which will give a parasite power drain. It should go to IGN I think. I thought only retractable wipers had the ability to use battery power to park and retract.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2022, 11:50:39 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 15, 2022, 10:23:47 pmYeah, back in 2018 I had a trip to the USA and rented a Chevy Malibu and drove is quite extensively in California and Nevada.I didn't hate it.The handling was decent, and the 1.6 turbo engine was both more than powerful enough for the car and reasonably economical -- I averaged 34 MPG (6.9 l/100km) on one 590 mile trip.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2022, 12:15:38 am
content: Quote from: brucehoult on March 15, 2022, 11:50:39 pmNot great, but better than the Ford (un)Eco(not)Sport I got last time I was over there, which managed a disappointing 24. Thankfully I also rented a Honda Civic which was faster, heavier, larger, and still returned over 40.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2022, 12:16:25 am
content: Quote from: m3vuv on March 15, 2022, 10:19:04 pmYou're beyond hilarious. And you British aren't generally allowed to criticize American cars, otherwise we'll have to start bringing up atrocities like the Triumph Dolomite and Reliant Robin.That 1958 Oldsmobile AFAIK would have an overhead-valve V8 and a 4-speed Hydramatic automatic transmission. The same year Rolls-Royce would have come with an F-head (not even all overhead valve) and a standard manual transmission, with an American-made automatic as onoption.But that's all ancient history. The three-speed iron-headed (nothing wrong with iron heads, b/t/w) pushrod cars all went away 3 decades ago or so. I've been driving an American-made electric car for almost a decade.

author: ArTrvlr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2022, 02:41:14 am
content: Quote from: ArTrvlr on March 15, 2022, 06:15:16 pmWith the board off the motor I disconnected the DK GRN wire that goes to the Mux2 connection shown in the GM diagram. Results: NOTHING in any switch position (including WASH) except HI speed which is a totally different switch circuit directly to the HI speed winding.So I reconnected that wire and disconnected the GRY wire to the Mux1 connector. Results: MIST, which is a momentary position, momentary LO. DELAY 1, momentary LO, then nothing as I go through the other 4 DELAY positions. Nothing in LO, of course HI works and WASH gave appx. 19 seconds of LO speed.

author: ArTrvlr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2022, 03:02:31 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 15, 2022, 11:32:16 pmI posted a GM service manual schematic earlier but here it is again so you don't have to look for it:8-485 Schematic-Wiper Washer Switch.pdf(495.66 kB - downloaded 81 times.)Yes the Newport wiper motor has a park switch inside.This board only has a 5 pin connector. The washer pump is separate. You will see all that on the diagram.You are correct on the B terminal. It should go to the ACC side of the IGN switch same as the red wire feeding the relays. My bad.I fixed it.

author: brucehoult
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 16, 2022, 04:26:58 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on March 16, 2022, 12:15:38 amMalibu is more Accord/Camry class.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 17, 2022, 07:03:28 pm
content: I dug in a bit and haven't found a simple solution - to using a late model 2001 GM steering column plus wiper motor control module, with the aftermarket New Port wiper motor; if I understand correctly what OP is trying to do.New Port should offer this as a product, right now all they offer is theIntermittent Delay Wiper SwitchI find the GM wiper controller board has decades of legacy, and has several timers in it.Anytime the wipers are home (park switch open), the timers are reset so they can start over for the next sweep.There is the intermittent/mist pulse wiper delay, and a few other small delays so you can turn the wand switches without malfunctions or strange things going on.The washer button makes it run low speed for maybe 5-6 seconds.It has some safety redundancy, there are three wand switches and two can activate the low speed, I think it's so you can have wipers even if one switch fails.If you are running this with the Park switch contacts sticking up in the air, the module will think it's always at Park/Home and not work. If you short the contacts with a jumper, the module will then always think the arms are in the middle of a sweep and shouldn't work intermittent.The GM wiper board relies on the Park switch to reset its timers and here we don't have it, park switch is inside the new wiper motor with one end connected to low speed.I'll think about it some more and there should be a way to make this work.1958 Buick Electric Wiper Conversionhis schematic has some errors but wow this is a lot of work keeping the original steering column.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2022, 07:50:16 pm
content: My idea is to simply use the GM wiper control circuit board as much as possible, connect it to the new wiper motor and add one relay to spoof the park switch, by connecting to the two contacts sticking up in the air. Even though the gear and ring etc. from truck wiper motor would be missing if the board was taken out. Just the board used stand-alone. If this works, it's much simpler, fewer relays.The GM module's one relay does a combined low speed+park function at T2 so I think it can work.If it doesn't, then you would need some custom electronics to take the New Port park switch and make it generate the GM park switch signal.Or, take apart the New Port wiper motor and break out the park switch wire that connects the low speed terminal inside.So then it would be a 4-wire wiper motor now, instead of 3 (plus ground), and just connect the New Port park switch to the GM module park switch pins, no additional relay required.Take a look at the proposed wiring diagram and let me know what you think.

author: ArTrvlr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2022, 02:47:58 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 17, 2022, 07:03:28 pmYour comments about shorting the park contacts got me thinking and checking. I clipped a momentary push button across the park contacts.The following tests were with the GM board out of the motor and everything connected as in the diagram below. When I put power to that test setup the PARK light comes on and stays on until I make a selection with the GM wiper switch. This is correct since in the actual wiper motor the park switch would open when the wipers moved to the PARK position. When I make a selection with the wiper switch the LO or HI light comes on and the PARK light goes out. As soon as the LO or HI light goes off the PARK light comes back on.The only thing that works right is HI. All other switch positions call for LO speed and they all cause the LO light to stay on anywhere from continuously to 6-12 seconds.In MIST and all 5 DELAY positions if I tap the push button as soon as the LO light comes on everything works normally.Wash will go off on time if I continually tap the button for appx. 6 seconds.LO will go off when I tap the button after turning the switch off.My guess is the momentary short tricks the board into going into PARK mode, then when the short is removed it thinks the park switch has rotated and opened.So I need a momentary short triggered by 12 volts on T2.That can be done with a relay, a capacitor and a resistor like this.I adapted that circuit in the second diagram below. But I think that will only give one momentary short, which would work for MIST and DELAY, but not for WASH or LO. And, if it could be made to give a continuous short/open/short/open cycle it would have to cycle full time when in LO. I doubt that relay would last long. Is there a way to do that without a relay? Would a flasher for LED turn signals work? I think I have only found a partial solution.

author: ArTrvlr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 20, 2022, 04:14:21 am
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 19, 2022, 07:50:16 pmI like your thinking, fewer relays is better, and my last suggestion added another one!When I started this topic I had pretty much given up on coaxing the GM wiper board into controlling the Newport motor. I was looking for help in adapting the delay circuit the guy was working on for the 1958 Buick. But, like you said, his circuit has flaws. He even mentioned that there could be a delay between turn on and the first delay wipe. Since coming here I have learned that a 555 timer would be a better approach. But with your help and a little more digging on my part I am leaning back to using the GM board. But since I was looking for help with building a new board, I didn't mention some things I had learned about the GM board/motor:When the switch is off one of the park contacts has 12 volts. The other is connected to T2. Seems normal for a park switch.When the switch is in any position calling for LO speed the 12 volt contact falls to 1-2 volts.When the motor is running in LO the HI speed windings output 7 volts (T1) That's the reason for diode D3 in my test schematic. With the board removed from the motor this wouldn't be necessary.When the motor is running in HI the LO speed windings output 18 volts (T2) That's the reason for relay RL3 in my test schematic. Again, with the board removed from the motor, not necessary.Plus the new information from my last post about shorting the PARK terminals with a momentary switch.When I have the circuit board assembled to the GM motor and wired as shown in my test schematic, with the light bulbs representing the Newport motor, everything works as expected.Does any of this information affect your suggested diagram? Whether it does or not I don't think I can test your setup with just the bulbs. It seems like I would need the Newport motor to be sure it would park, but maybe not. I haven't bought the motor yet because I am quite a ways from being ready to reassemble my car. If I buy it now it could be out of warranty by the time it is installed. I am only working on the wipers now because I am waiting on a new frame. I need that here before I can finish body repairs and some modifications, so I am working on what I can in the meantime. But if I need to go ahead and get the motor for final testing I can do so.I really do appreciate the time and effort you have put forth to help me in this project. Thanks so much!

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2022, 06:25:55 pm
content: The GM module has 3 main timers - mist, intermittent and wash, plus a couple timers to filter out switching, as you turn the control here or there- to ignore that until the wand switch is staying put. So it looks like a 555 timer could replace the GM module but really you need more than that.The New Port wiper motor seems expensive at $250 but they have done the work on the mechanical aspects. That guy's '58 Buick had '57 sized mech and he assumed they just used those parts up in early production. New Port seem to offer the (Cole Hersee)Littelfuse Electronic Windshield Wiper Switcheslike 75600-04, and7522675212-04 2-speed switch. Too bad they don't offer anything that would work with modern steering columns.For high speed, with the GM module it looks like both the high speed and low speed motor windings get energized, at the same time. This is different than your present test circuit. If you look at the GM steering column switches in High they activate Low as well. This can be proven by the (GM module's) Low speed relay heard clicking in (it will also click when doing park) when selecting High speed. This would be a deal breaker to using the GM module with New Port's product I think but I will ask them if it's a series field/shunt motor they have. Also note when the motor is only powered at high speed, its Low terminal will generate phantom voltage which can be confusing.If you connect a motor to the GM module's T1,2,3 terminals in your test circuit, note that diode D3 will probably roast because it is now seeing motor current, typically up to 6A in the car.The GM modules are made in china, Korea, everyone and their dog makes them. I'll ask New Port what the deal is with their motor and park switch to confirm what they say.

author: ArTrvlr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2022, 10:08:50 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 21, 2022, 06:25:55 pmAgain thanks for all your research and help.I haven't talked to Newport Engineering but based on what I think is true for three wire two speed wiper motors, and the drawing below, each motor terminal must be powered separately, never two or three at the same time. This quote from the Buick guy seems to back that up:"Unfortunately, once I got the conversion kit in and bench tested the new wiper motor, I found a small problem - the auto-park circuit on the new motor is designed to be energized only when the wipers are "off". If you energize it at the same time as the low or high speed leads the motor current draw increases radically and the different windings in the motor basically fight with each other."That, and the fact that as you say, the GM switch/module combination also activates LO speed when in the HI position, is why my test setup used relays and diodes to isolate all three outputs. It's the only way I know to do it.Regarding my roasting D3 diode, what part # or power rating diode would survive?Two Speed Wiper Switch 75212-04.pdf(788.75 kB - downloaded 63 times.)

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 21, 2022, 10:30:06 pm
content: This thread would be incomplete without someone suggesting a Raspberry Pi, orvArduino with a relay or three.Everyone needs linux running their wipers.

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2022, 12:40:26 am
content: GM did it with four transistorsMy buddy's windshield wipers kept getting stuck on his Chevy C10. He'd roll down his window, stick his arm out to grab the wipers and yank them to get them running again.Problem is, he was not looking at the road while tugging at the wiper arm. One day, he didn't see the car stopped ahead making a turn and he rear-ended him.About the motor high+low and park switch, I reached out to New Port and will let you know when I hear from them.

author: ArTrvlr
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 28, 2022, 06:01:24 pm
content: Quote from: floobydust on March 19, 2022, 07:50:16 pmBased on your idea above, and after testing with the GM wiper motor circuit board park contacts shorted with a momentary push button I came up with the test setup shown below. I haven't tried it yet, I had to order the capacitor and resistor.Do I need a diode at terminal 86 of RL2 to prevent the capacitor from discharging back through the LO bulb or back into the circuit board at T2?

author: floobydust
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2022, 06:19:50 pm
content: I didn't yet hear back from New Port, resent tech support questions to see what options they have with their wiper motor park switches.Let me chew on this, I don't have a wiper system to play around with on my workbench lol. The delay cap you added can fool the unit but for perfect operation, the park relay needs to really follow the park switch.