Energy from water & air?  Real or bollocks? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: wagon
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 02:33:21 am
content: http://jewtube.tv/innovation/say-goodbye-arab-oil-hello-israels-car-runs-air-water/

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 02:43:32 am
content: The text below the video clearly states that they are using "Aluminum-Air and Zinc-Air batteries that carry oxygen, these batteries freely breathe oxygen from the ambient air to release the energy contained in metals."So it's a battery driven car... Not just a lead-acid or li-ion battery, but still a battery...

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 02:55:49 am
content: Real, but not just water and air, it needs aluminum and maybe galium and it does extract hydrogen from aluminum to feed fuel cells.http://www.purdue.edu/uns/x/2007a/070515WoodallHydrogen.htmlhttp://www.purdue.edu/uns/x/2007b/070827WoodallNanotech.htmlThe byproduct is aluminum oxide, also called alumina which has to be reconverted back to aluminum, so on filling stations it will have to exchange the alumina with fresh aluminum and with electrolysis the alumina will be converted back to aluminum powered by solar or other higher forms of energy to meet demand.But the US DOE (Department of Energy) rejected Woodall's proposal, so of course there was some drama:http://www.nbcnews.com/id/18700750/ns/us_news-environment/t/clean-energy-claim-aluminum-your-car-tank/QuoteResponse from the DOE:http://www.nbcnews.com/id/18829531/ns/us_news-environment/t/energy-dept-hydrogen-claim-has-drawback/Edit: of course the video of the OP doesn't say anything about Hydrogen being the combustiblethey sure do mention Oxygen but that's just for the fuel cell to produce electricity when combined with the Hydrogen extracted from the Aluminum.

author: abebarker
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 03:02:24 am
content: Oh ya! A car running off the energy contained in powdered aluminum. This will make getting your hands on thermite cheap and easy.I wonder if they have come up with a good way to turn the aluminum oxide back into aluminum metal.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 03:18:06 am
content: If you notice the fuel cells already were mounted with aluminum, so the only way to refill the one the OP linked is to switch those fuel cells.Not practical but that doesn't mean the energy is not there.Aluminum has a pretty high energy density. But because that car can run for 300 miles or Km forgot which one they mention, it doesn't mean it's practical as it is, just a neat demonstration of the technology.But the "secret sauce" has been out for 5 years already, so not that innovative just borrowed I guess.Edit: Sorry, not 5 years more like 8 or maybe 9 years. Also there are other ways to extract Hydrogen from Aluminum without the need of Gallium and only water and oxygen being consumed and the rest of the chemicals can be recycled. After the energy is extracted off the produced hydrogen and consumed by the fuel cells combining it with Oxygen there is only water vapor coming out of the exhaust.

author: AG6QR
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 03:51:03 am
content: Aluminum is not a natural energy source, because aluminum in its elemental state doesn't occur in nature. Aluminum is very common in compounds, particularly oxide, but it takes a large amount of energy (in the form of electricity) to convert it to the elemental metallic aluminum.The energy they get out of it is less than the energy they originally put in during the refining process.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 04:38:05 am
content: No one claims it's a natural source, just it's a good energy transport medium.Another way to extract the energy back from Aluminium (might as well call it on it's alternate name as well)2 Aluminium (2 Al) + 2 Sodium Hydroxide (2 NaOH) + 1 Water (H2O) -> 3 Hydrogen (3 H2) + 2 Sodium Aluminate (2 NaAlO2)Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_aluminate2 NaAlO2 is in solution so it's really in the form of Na+ and Al(OH)4-By changing the Ph it will precipitate to Aluminium Hydroxide (Al(OH)3) and Sodium Hydroxide (2 NaOH) that can be fed back into the first formula.So you end up with Aluminium Hydroxide that has to be recycled back to Aluminium by converting it first to Aluminium Oxide.If you heat that Aluminium Hydroxide at ~900C it will convert to Aluminium Oxide (Al2O3) that can be converted to Aluminium again.2 Al(OH)3 -> Al2O3 + 3 H2OSource:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxideAnyways, if there was ever any use for alternate forms of energy to be stored somewhat, Aluminium would be a good candidate. Could it be at the Aluminium pumping station? probably not because the demand might be higher than the conversion rate of that station.But does Aluminium fit the criteria of being a transportable form of energy storage? at 83.8 Mega Joules per Liter (Volume) versus say Diesel at 38.6 Mega Joules per Liter or Gasoline (Petrol) at 34.2 Mega Joules per Liter, you bet it's a feasible way to store energy.Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_densityNot taking into account the energy required to produce it but as an storage medium is a feasible medium.No pollutants and all recyclable, you can use Hydro, Solar, Wind, Methanol or whatever other ways to produce the energy needed to manufacture Aluminium (or Aluminum) back from the byproduct.Edit: as for "The energy they get out of it is less than the energy they originally put in during the refining process."That's ok, we are talking about fuel not what it takes to produce it, we are not talking about free energy just an alternative.How much energy was needed to create the fosil fuels?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 06:28:44 am
content: One more caveat is the weight of Aluminum2699 grams per liter compared to 748.9 grams per liter for gasolineSo the ratio of energy/weight is:Aluminum 31,049 Joules/gramGasoline 45,667 Joules/gramSo Gasoline has a better ratio but it's not clean.Aluminum is not on par but it can be made clean if the energy used to produce it is clean to begin with.So no magical super energy transport, but if we only care about clean fuel then it's a contender.But Methanol made out of Corn is probably a better contender.Edit: maybe not,Methanol 25,045 Joules/gramBut Ethanol is 30,418 Joules/gram but you need a farm to produce it.not clean burning anyways for Ethanol and Methanol so it can't be considered "green"

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 06:42:15 am
content: So if using wast amounts of power to produce aluminum than will end up producing hydrogen in the car, why not spend wast amount of power to generate hydrogen instead? At least generating hydrogen should clean compared to the pollution the mining & refining of aluminum is.And hydrogen have 3.5 times the energy density of gasoline.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 06:44:21 am
content: Hydrogen is hard to store in a "safe" way.On demand Hydrogen production is safer.

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 06:49:11 am
content: Didn't know that. Is it much harder to store than LPG/Propane that you can of you see in huge cisterns everywhere?Would it be feasible to produce a full tank of hydrogen in "real-time" using electrolysis?

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 06:57:49 am
content: Propane doesn't burn clean.As for electrolysis you can't produce it real time for moving a car.A Hydrogen leak (say from an accident that the tank gets ruptured) would be dangerous. I remember there where some research done using some magnetic containers for liquid hydrogen but not sure where that is at. Still if ruptured that much Hydrogen would be very explosive when it is exposed to the Oxygen in the air in an accident.So you don't want to produce a full tank of hydrogen, just what you need for the reaction when you need to produce energy to move the vehicle.Edit: BTW there is such a thing as natural gas fuel cell generatorshttps://www.google.com/search?q=natural+gas+fuel+cell+generatorBut the emissions are not clean, meaning that you only use the hydrogen from the natural gas and produces carbon emissions

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 07:17:02 am
content: Quote from: matseng on June 04, 2015, 06:49:11 amMuch, much harder to store. Propane is beautiful in that at room temperature it is a liquid at about 10 Bar. You can store a large amount of liquid in a vessel rated at ~30 Bar (most gas cylinders are certified at 3.3Mpa or 33 Bar) and know it won't rupture in the heat of summer.Hydrogen needs to be below ~-240C (its critical point) to be able to be liquefied, which is a pretty high bar to start with. Just compressing it to massive pressures will allow you to store a proportional quantity in a tank, but orders of magnitude less than a liquid (like Propane). CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) has similar issues. The critical point of Methane (-82C) is higher than Hydrogen, but it has a very high vapor pressure even there and you still need to keep the vessel chilled below the critical point for it to be effectively stored. For completeness the critical temperature of Propane is about 97C.This is the reason for storing Hydrogen chemically in hydrides, but it's inefficient, complex and generally expensive.Generation at destination would be the best solution if it could be done efficiently, inexpensively and rapidly. Unfortunately nobody has come up with an answer for that yet. Let's call it the holy grail.

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 07:53:22 am
content: Power your car with hearing aid batteries.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 08:09:09 am
content: Quote from: G7PSK on June 04, 2015, 07:53:22 amAt their recommended high discharge of 24mA you'd need 75000 just to crank the starter motor over

author: matseng
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 08:16:52 am
content: Quote from: Psi on June 04, 2015, 08:09:09 amBut.... Don't forget everybodys new darling technology - graphene... I'm sure it can be used to here to allow just a handful of hearing aid batteries to crank the starter.

author: smjcuk
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 04, 2015, 08:43:23 am
content: There's plenty of energy in water and air. All those lovely covalent bonds and let us not forget nuclear force.However it's a bastard getting at it without flattening cites etc.

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 05, 2015, 02:21:30 am
content: Quote from: abebarker on June 04, 2015, 03:02:24 amSure, plenty of electricity, and just shy of 1000C seems to have worked well enough to take aluminum from a precious metal thought worthy of topping the Washington monument, to something suitable for disposable beer cans.