Backup strategies - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 03:31:07 pm
content: Hi all,I'm interested to compare notes about how we all keep our data safe from equipment failure, viruses, operator errors and the like. It seems to be a subject where it's all too easy to learn the hard way that a backup strategy wasn't adequate, but it's harder to find good information on 'best practice' in advance of a disaster happening.My important data lives on a NAS box with three discs in a RAID array, powered by a UPS. Overnight, it runs an incremental backup to a separate, encrypted USB drive, and I have 3 of these drives which I rotate once a month, so there's always one which is physically disconnected and less than a month old, and another which is more than a month old (just in case something gets accidentally deleted and I don't notice for a while). (Note to self, the spare USB discs should probably live in a fire safe).I've also recently added a second NAS box with two discs in a mirror configuration, and that receives an incremental backup overnight too. It lives in a different room and has only a wireless connection to the main NAS. This box exists in case a fault in the main NAS (say, a catastrophic power supply failure) takes out all the drives in it as well, including the current USB device. I don't keep any drive letters mapped to this box, and my PC user account only has read access to it.What I like about my backup strategy is that it's fully automated; now I've set it up, I don't have to do anything besides rotate the USB discs once a month. That's important to me, as I'd inevitably forget or not bother to back things up otherwise.I don't like the idea of using a "cloud" backup service. I need to know, very clearly and specifically, who has access to my data, and in what jurisdiction it may be kept. These awkward questions seem all too easily glossed over or ignored, and that's no good.If anyone thinks I'm unprotected against a likely failure, then do please explain, I'm keen to make worthwhile improvements.TaAndy.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 05:20:44 pm
content: I've just upgraded all of my storage and the new system is as follows.Everything is kept on a 6 TB NAS drive, movies, personal stuff, the lot, but if you look at the directory tree it naturally separates into three distinct areas which are labelled red, green or blue in the file manager. These three drive areas are backed up to color coded 2 TB USB drives. Backups are tested.I don't use Seagate drives.I've had to deal with a drive failure at one point and it's NOT a nice feeling.

author: bookaboo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 05:58:20 pm
content: I use a reputable cloud backup service and once every few month I do a manual backup of vital files (accounts, programs & drawings) to my home PC via the cloud (upload them at work, download them at home).Not as secure as those already stated but the chances of losing all my data via dual disasters is next to none.While the cloud may not be 100% secure it's a risk I'm willing to take given that my data is non sensitive.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 06:16:45 pm
content: I ditched UPSs a decade ago. They caused more outages than they solved. I'm also not convinced RAID is a good method due to the manual intervention required to fix it. I have 3 backups which are updated incrementally using Rsync (only add, not delete) every day. One on a slow hard drive inside my PC/server for easy access, one in a NAS which sits in a fire protected place and one USB drive in the attic above the flooding level (I'm about 4 meters below sea level so flooding is a risk). I take the USB drive with me when I leave for longer periods.For one particular customer I also backup to Dropbox but that goes through a different user account on my machine in 2 steps so the Dopbox stuff is isolated from the rest.

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 06:42:51 pm
content: The obvious holes:1) you don't mention how you verify that any of this is working as expected and that you can restore as expected.2) You don't mention your offsite backup, other than that you don't trust cloud-based solutions.Cloud-based services aren't the only option for off-site backup.More importantly, is your risk-assesment well thought through? Are the risks you attribute to cloud-backup really larger than the risk of data-loss due to something like your house burning, or flooding? Think long and hard about this, because, the way I see it, your current position is that your data is more important to a hypothetical someone else than it is to you. If that is the case, why are you keeping it and backing it up in the first place?Once you've considered that, you should revisit your look at cloud-based backup services. The requirements you describe don't sound unique, and I'd be very surprised if there aren't options that can address your doubts, though probably not among basic consumer-oriented offerings (That doesn't mean they have to be esoteric or expensive though).Personally, I don't bother with RAID for my home server any more. It can enhance availability at the cost of complexity and maintenance, but it is no substitute for backup (not that you seem to be relying on it for such). I'd rather use the extra disks for rsync snapshot backups (using rsnapsot makes it easy to create and maintain).

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 06:59:38 pm
content: Me and a friend keep daily incremental backups of each others file servers. We have a WiFi network that's meant primarily for that. That way we both have regular off site backups. Also do the typical monthly disk imaging etc but fingers crossed have never had to fall back on one yet. The latest are kept at my mothers, the oldest come back with me to become the latest.I also happily back certain things up to various internet services. Even if it wasn't encrypted that's all just family pictures and home movies, my own crappy music from when I thought I was going to be the next Garry Moore etc. Nothing "important," nothing secret, but probably means more to me than everything else combined lol.

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 07:22:05 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on August 01, 2015, 06:59:38 pmPersonally, I think that even that stuff should be as secure and safe as you want it to be.That said, I think in some ways, at least half the value of personal backup and data management tools (like Evernote) is simply that they make you think you'll be able to find your old stuff when you need it, which frees you to do and think about other, more immediate concerns. Even if, at some later date, they fail in that promise, they've probably still done you a huge service by letting you get on with things over the previous years.

author: codeboy2k
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 01, 2015, 07:31:43 pm
content: I'm going through a double disk RAID failure right now, as some of you know from my own thread on the matter.What I've learned is that hard disks are shite, they WILL fail, and backups are a necessity. RAID is not good enough. And as was said by one of the members, if you need to make a backup anyways, why use RAID? (or at least, why use a complex RAID like RAID5 -- just mirror it and back it up).Cloud backup was never an option for me or I would have done it. I have limited bandwidth and limited GB of data allocation before they start charging me overage per GB so using the cloud for GB's of storage was not an option.Learn from me. Having no backup strategy is never going to end well

author: krish2487
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2015, 06:30:21 am
content: I have seen/read opinions of others and while they all have their preferences, I ll just write down what I do to ensure safety of data.Office - Main workstation PC - RAID 1Office - Local NAS (also RAID 1) - Daily scheduled complete backup of workstation PC. (All the User files, Drawings, code etc).Home - Remote Backup (Also RAID 1) - Complete mirror of Local NAS running at office (synced using owncloud).As an added advantage, using owncloud to sync remote and local allows me to access the data on the web .It helps that I have dedicated bandwidth of 4 MBps and static IPs for both sites. Just as a number, I transfer roughly about 400 MB of data everyday. I find that bandwidth is a cheaper expenditure than disks. The redundancy / downtime is presently at 15 mins in case of a complete hardware failure (like a fire)[size=78%]

author: sleemanj
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2015, 07:28:06 am
content: I have a USB 3.0 drive and use "rsnapshot" to create nightly snapshots to it, this makes it pretty easy for me to recover an accidentally deleted or screwed up file as each night's snapshot is a complete filesystem tree (using hardlinks so each file is only stored physically once) and I can (could) easily pull unplug the drive and plug in another one every so often.Only the important otherwise-non-recoverable stuff gets backed up, as for the OS itself (Ubuntu) I just store the package selections and contents of /etc and /usr/local so I could if push came to shove rebuild the system to roughly as it is now from those.I really should get around to hanging another off a network connection in an outbuilding and do a weekly rsync of the snapshot drive across to it.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 02, 2015, 07:51:17 am
content: Quote from: eas on August 01, 2015, 06:42:51 pmEvery time I rotate the USB discs, I can at least see how much capacity is used. Other than actually performing a full restore - presumably to a fresh set of spare discs - what test would you recommend?The most recently unplugged USB disc is usually kept off-site.QuoteI have both important data that I don't want to lose, and data which I need to keep private.A house fire is probably the worst case scenario, though even then, my customers generally have their own copies of completed projects, so it's just work-in-progress that would be truly lost. That, and all my personal data, music, photos and the like, of course.QuoteMaybe that's worth a thread of its own. What specific guarantees or assurances should I be looking for and expecting a cloud provider to make, and how do the major players stack up in that respect?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 02, 2015, 11:40:57 pm
content: Quote from: wilfred on August 01, 2015, 07:31:23 pmI don't think you should disregard experience from those in the field. Therearedisks that perform worse and are less reliable than others. My advice would be if you're running a proper (hardware) RAID set up, stick to proper enterprise drives. Those sub-$100 consumer drives aren't up to the task. Your backup should be a last-resort tactic. If you can sustain a stable RAID with good hardware, when a failure does occur, you'll see little or no downtime and you have other options still up your sleeve. It's the worst feeling when you're restoring from the only other source of your data, hoping that none of it is corrupt and all of the media is readable.Unless you're backing up constantly, your backup in most cases will still be missing the latest data.

author: lewis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 12:18:23 am
content: Quote from: AndyC_772 on August 02, 2015, 07:51:17 amI only ever trust cloud providers with data that I would be happy for anyone to view. In other words, whenever something goes on the cloud, any cloud, no matter the provider, I assume someone is looking at it.Don't forget encryption too. Vastly simplifying, you have obligations under the Data Protection Act to keep customer's data confidential. There was a case recently where a small business was fined a significant sum by the ICO for DPA breaches when they had their laptop stolen. The laptop was password protected but crucially not encrypted.My backup system involves daily backups to office NAS (5x WD red 4TB with 2 disks redundancy) and weekly backups via USB drive to home laptop. All encrypted. Lots of manual pissing about, and lots of managing encryption keys! To be honest, I'm looking for a decent backup solution too.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 12:27:54 am
content: Depends if you need to back up video or not.For my needs as a video content producer, the only cost-effective and suitable backup and archive medium is hard drives.Cloud doesn't work for massive amounts of video files.I keep two hard drives (different brands) with the same data.Just for the raw video for episodes 500-715, that fill a 2TB drive, and that requirement always increases as I shoot at ever higher bitrates.For all my photo, documents, design files and other stuff, my 1TB Dropbox is perfect, so it's backed up in the cloud and on several local machine that are synced.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 12:33:59 am
content: What I'm missing from this thread is how to recover the OS and installed software quickly. It takes me several days working 9 to 5 to get everything re-installed and configured. Nowadays I run Windows software from virtual machines and the VM images are included in my backups so the Windows part of my 'operation' is peanuts to revive. But I'm also doing a lot of development on the Linux host system as well. I will need to work out a backup strategy for that too...

author: Red Squirrel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 01:46:27 am
content: I have a 24 bay file server that I built, there are currently 3 separate raid arrays on it, an old raid 5 that was ported from my main server, then two newer arrays which are raid 10's. Most of my environment is virtualized so this stores VMs and actual raw data. The old raid5 is used mostly for backups so stuff on the other arrays or system files in the VMs etc are backed up nightly. I have 19TB total of space on that server. Not that much by today's standards, but I tend to only add more drives as I need more space. Eventually I'll want to retire that old raid 5 array and make a bigger raid 10. Might even look at ZFS at some point.I have a drive dock which I use to run manual backups as well, though I need to buy more drives as a lot of them are failing. Basically I treat them like tapes and have a small rotation going, just to act as cold backups as you don't want all your backups on spinning drives in case of odd ball situation like an earthquake or hackers or something along those lines.For power backup (almost just as important as file backup) I have an inverter-charger with 4 100AH flooded cell batteries. I'm good for about 4 hours for the servers. Just have a basic SOHO UPS for workstation so that gets shut down mostly right away if power goes out. Load is about 50 amps on the DC side for server stuff. I eventually want to upgrade this setup to a 48v dual conversion setup like telcos use, that way there is less chance of something going wrong during switch over, as it's always running off the inverter which is always connected to the batteries. I'd increase the amount of batteries too which would allow me to add more stuff to it like my PCs and maybe even my TV setup.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 08:20:30 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 03, 2015, 12:33:59 amIn my case, this really isn't a major issue. A day of hassle to reinstall Windows, email, PCB software and a couple of compilers.Realistically, in the event of my PC dying, I'm much more concerned about not being able to replace it with a Windows 7 machine, and being forced onto 8.1.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 08:27:09 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 03, 2015, 12:27:54 amDo people still use tape these days? I'd have thought that archiving video would be a perfect fit for tape backup... large capacity, very occasional access, and all that data is held in a relatively small number of large files.Quote from: lewis on August 03, 2015, 12:18:23 amMe too, and that's the problem. My business data is confidential, and I don't want it crossing borders.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 11:31:18 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 03, 2015, 08:44:23 amDepends on the country/provider. Most large companies have a dedicated e-mail address or request process for such data and a warrant is not always required. Facebook and Apple are two I have directly dealt which personally which require little more than online (intranet) form filled out. Most companies (big and small) will almost bend over backwards for requests by the Government. I don't see it necessarily as a bad thing though. The outcome is almost always positive and in the interest of the general public. Mind you, the cops have no interest in your nudie photos etc...

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 12:03:06 pm
content: It's not that I'm that bothered about national security services accessing my data out of curiosity. What I don't want, is to find that I'm deemed to have inadvertently exported something from somewhere which required a licence, or which results in a breach of customer confidence, even though everything I "export" originally came from my own PC anyway.Life is, frankly, too short to spend it conducting an audit of which countries allow what code / images / personal data to cross borders to where, and which cloud providers offer absolute cast-iron guarantees regarding where my data ends up.

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 09:11:38 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on August 02, 2015, 11:40:57 pmAgain, I disagree with the idea that RAID should be the foundation of a data preservation strategy. It is most useful for addressing availability, capacity, throughput and latency, and even then, there are other options that should be considered alongside RAID. In situations where RAID is appropriate, it needs to be accompanied by appropriate operational practices. First and foremost, a RAID increases the likelihood of a single failure in the storage subsystem, as well as increasing the risk from a single failure. Because of this, while RAID provides the possibility of continued operation in the face of a failure, a failure should receive immediate attention. It is hard for me to imagine that any of them are justified for secondary storage for one or two people, unless you want to make a hobby of being a storage admin.The idea that hardware RAID is "proper," and software RAID isn't, is misguided and ill-informed. Hardware RAID brings a number of downsides. Firmwares can be buggy, they add additional complexity, and with it and more places for things to go wrong and mistakes to be made by part-time admins. In the event of failure of the RAID hardware, recovery generally requires acquiring the appropriate proprietary, possibly obsolete hardware. Recovery from some failure modes is complicated because data and metadata are spread across multiple disks using potentially undocumented datastructures.QuoteTrue, but with OS-provided filesystem notifications, the backup window can be quite small. Moreover, it doesn't sound like the OP is necessarily using this for working data in the first place.RAID also does nothing to protect against accidental file deletion and file corruption. It can reduce the chances of filesystem corruption, but once that happens, it does nothing to help with recovery.Quote from: AndyC_772 on August 02, 2015, 07:51:17 amWell, disk-space is relatively cheap, so making sure there are no errors when copying back from a backup isn't necessarily that big an expense. Another approach would be to script restoration of, say, 10% of all the files. An orthogonal piece is to use something to compute signatures of all the files at the time of backup and then check all or a subset of them.Checking the amount of capacity in use depends on the filesystem being in a consistent state, but an inconsistent filesystem is one of the things you want to guard against, and a consistent filesystem doesn't ensure that critical files are indeed backed-up and in good order. Making a regular filesystem check (not repair) of your backup disks is probably a good thing to add to the mix.QuoteAh, sorry if you mentioned that and I missed it. That's a good easy step to take.QuoteI think the question of access to backed-up data, and the question of jurisdiction and data crossing borders are probably pretty common -- they are often raised, and often backed with well considered reasons. Any backup provider that doesn't provide crisp answers is either interested in a different segment of the market, or incompetent at business, and likely, technology.I am not recommending them, but in the US, at least, I'm quite happy with Crashplan and impressed by the completeness of their offering. For paying customers, there is the option of using a custom encryption key to encrypt the backup. I am using encryption, but I haven't enabled this specific option yet, in part because I'm not ready to tackle the key management.

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 09:24:15 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 03, 2015, 12:33:59 amWell, one reasonable approach is to only use the host linux system for virtualization, and do your linux development in a linux vm.Beyond that, linux is more amenable to simple filesystem copy backups/restores than Windows. In addition, for debian based systems, its pretty straightforward to capture the basic package manager configuration, including customer repositories, and to dump a list of installed packages/versions that can then be fed back. For stuff from tarballs, a dumbass shell-script is often enough. Don't worry too much about dealing with exceptions. In most cases, if it fails, it doesn't take much to fix the problem and rerun the script. I think one challenge with Linux is that there are many many options and the reasons to choose among them aren't always obvious. If they were, I'd probably have a better answer

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 03, 2015, 10:40:10 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on August 03, 2015, 12:33:59 amI use a disk duplicator, if I remember it was about $60. When I get a new computer, I install the software that I know I will not be messing with anytime soon. Then I duplicate it with new drive and put the new drive into the computer and finish installing things like Firefox. And store the original a safe place.Once a new drive failed and I put back the original drive to make sure it worked and then duplicated it again. Never had to reinstall OS since I got the duplicator. The only thing to remember is you have to use the same size or larger, you cannot go down in size.Another time when a computer failed and I got a newer model with no OS, a duplicated drive worked (from another computer) but I have to install new drivers.Also I used the duplicator to back up a full 3 tb drive to another 3 tb drive. Then I hooked both up to a computer and turned on the computer and both drives crashed. I spent months and every software solution I could find without any luck. I lost 3 tb of data. The moral is do not hook up duplicates at the same time. It would have been ok if I had powered one up and let the computer recognize it then power up the other. Maybe someone could tell me the technical reason why this happened.I have used this method on about 20 computers so far and I could not live without one. The only downside is you need another drive for each backup.Edit: The drives were not destroyed, just the data. I re-formatted them and I am still using them. I am not sure what "brick" means, ie does it mean software or hardware destruction?

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 04, 2015, 01:02:47 am
content: Quote from: ez24 on August 03, 2015, 10:40:10 pmIt's worth keeping in mind that hard drive command sets include the ability to reflash the hard drive firmware. Which means there's potential for hostile code on the PC to deliberately brick hard drives, by reflashing the drive firmware with garbage. There are obvious scenarios in which this could happen (hackers, intelligence agencies, etc), but there are also non-obvious ones.I have a story that may be relevant. Long ago I swore I'd never give MS another cent, for anything, under any circumstances. So I have an interest in unofficial versions of Windows. A few years ago I was setting up a system using an 'optimized and minimized' version of WinXP. The system HD was all FAT32 partitions. I'd spent about a month on and off getting the system customized and all utils I wanted installed. Never even a hint of any problems. I reached the point where I was happy with it, and so should make a duplicate system image. A suitable spare drive I had was NTFS. Before reformatting it I thought I'd check what was on it. Powered down the system, plugged in the NTFS as 2nd HD, powered up. Spent a brief moment looking at the contents, decided it held nothing important and formatting it would be OK. I wasn't logged in as Administrator, and the quickest way to switch was via a reboot. So shut down the system and powered up again. Btw, both drives were PATA, and on separate cables. I didn't touch anything during this sequence.On this power up, the system wouldn't boot. 'Missing hard disk'.On investigation, the system boot HD I was about to mirror, was now a non-HD. Bricked, not responding to the BIOS at all.So, that drive just happened to become a brick, in the couple of minutes when this 'black' Windows install saw an NTFS drive for the first time ever, after being fine for a month of use, many power cycles, many reboots, both from power downs and ctl-alt-del restarts.It's not an impossible coincidence, but it sure makes me suspicious.If I was a paranoid person (and I am) I'd suspect there's code buried in Microsoft NTFS drivers that runs some kind of 'am I a legitimate Windows install?' check, and if not, causes as much pain as possible.Now if I was writing a 'hidden last resort protection' code bomb like that (and I have in the past) I'd make it non-deterministic in operation, ie it wouldn't always act, and it wouldn't always do the same thing when it did act. Repeatability is a weakness and allows for easier recognition, identification and removal. Also, since I'm convinced Microsoft management are the worst imaginable kind of bastards, I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that such drive-bricking behavior might also happen at rare, random times, solely to create a background of such failures in which more targeted failures don't stand out so much. Which would put a couple of other such sudden total drive-failures I've had in a different light.One of those projects I'll probably never get around to, is to set up that same scenario, but with target HD having the _write line to the HD firmware flash physically cut, and a logic analyzer looking at the PATA interface and that write line. Also using a system with a CPU emulator installed. It would be cool to catch it happening, and document exactly what code did the drive bricking. Imagine the class action lawsuit, if it turned out MS Windows actually was provably deliberately bricking drives now and then.Edit to add:Quote from: eas on August 03, 2015, 09:24:15 pmThanks for the links! You should start a thread on this. 18650 batteries are great, and I'm already finding lots of surplus ones. Very interested in discussions of salvage/restoration & charge management techniques.Pic below - the green ones are all good, as they were found (in DECT phone battery packs) while still charged, mostly brand new. The yellow ones are an interesting experiment-to-be, in that they are from a portable power tool pack and are COMPLETELY flat. 0.0V. But the first one I've tried charging is showing signs it might recover somewhat. Still to be seen how it goes with multiple 'resuscitation cycles'. I'm very curious about how badly these batteries are degraded by mistreatment.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 02:13:27 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on August 04, 2015, 01:02:47 amThat sort of code doesn't exist in Windows. Could you imagine how many drives would be bricked if that was the case?You would have been better off just using a legitimate Windows XP install disc rather than stuffing around with someone else's work. You would have been up and running in a few hours rather than weeks.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 03:31:46 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 04, 2015, 02:51:24 pmHa ha.. that reasoning always makes me laugh. "Per user file permissions" - on a machine that has only ONE user - me. Imo the entire structure of multi-user security on machines that are for personal use, is a massive pile of pointless overcomplexity and annoyance, which also forces combinatorial complexity contamination and obfuscation into all the rest of the OS. As far as I'm concerned, my machines are an extension of my own mind. Everything in them is mine, and should be as readily available to me as my own memories and thoughts. Things like 'Windows (system) file protection' and all other per-user protections and customizations are something I have to go to extra trouble to disable as much as possible, on every Windows install I do.With every successive Windows version such unacceptable bullshit gets harder (to impossible) to remove, which is one (of many) reasons I won't follow MS down that path.For instance, the NTFS 'protected system folders' are insufferable to me. But that's just one small detail... I'll spare you a lengthy anti-NTFS rant.Darn it.. I wanted to link a really good article about file system abstraction and hiding in MS operating systems, but I can't find it just now.Also ALL file systems are susceptible to corruption (spare me any claims to the contrary), and although this can be made less so, the overheads required are imo not worth the trouble. Especially since the #1 cause of file system corruption (in personal computers) is unexpected power down during writes, and this risk could be completely eliminated by simple hardware-software measures such as an adequate PowerFailWarn interrupt, slightly longer and guaranteed power supply hold-up times, and software that took care never to begin critical tasks it can't guarantee to complete within the known power-good window. (This is not opinion, this is experience of having designed embedded processor systems that handled LOTS of money, and were utterly impervious to data loss due to people playing drum tunes on the mains power switch. They would do it deliberately, hoping glitches might benefit them financially.)But do we see _that_ cheap & easy improvement in the PC architecture? Noooooo.At least with FAT32 the structure is well known, relatively simple and can be hand patched in an emergency. Not so NTFS.Yes, I have to live with NTFS for large drives. But I consider this a temporary compromise.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 10:34:50 am
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on August 05, 2015, 03:31:46 amThis way of thinking is a malware writer's wettest & wildest dream. If you use a PC as a root/administrator user to browse internet then it is very likely infected. Using a computer as a user with limited access is very effective in keeping malware and virusses out.

author: dfmischler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 11:04:20 am
content: On the disk/tape issue: at this time, due to the cost of worthwhile tape drives, tape is only cost effective when you are rotating between a large number of tapes. It may still be the only cost-effective backup option for dealing with dozens of terabytes or more.I guess what I don't like that I am hearing is the idea that it is OK to keep a USB 3.0 drive plugged in for a month and keep running incremental backups to it during that period. IMO, a drive that is plugged in and running is too vulnerable to depend on for that long. Yes, the likelihood of a building fire or lightning strike is low, but the cost to your organization of recovering from one on the 29th day of using that cinder-that-used-to-be-a-USB-drive could be astronomical. It is also good to realize that a drive on a shelf someplace can't be so easily damaged by malware or user errors.How much work (i.e. new data) are you willing to risk losing? If the answer is one day (or 2 days, or a week) then that backup disk/tape should get pulled and taken off site every day (or 2 days, or a week). Of course, you need to make another disk available for the next backup at that time. How many disks/tapes do you need? That depends. Here are some well though out ideas on that:Common Backup Strategies.

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 12:19:51 pm
content: Quote from: lewis on August 03, 2015, 12:18:23 amI'm not pointing fingers at you....just in general. So take it with a grain of salt. But...............I love how people think they are interesting enough to be "spied" on.It's the same thing of guys that are obsessed with destroying hard drive.A.) Yes, your mom might find your porn stash.B.) No the NSA could care less about you.C.) And...again no, you're not really interesting - yes I know you googled for "how much plutonium for an atomic bomb" - so did a million other people.D.) You don't have secrets. Get over yourself.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 12:30:30 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 03, 2015, 08:36:30 amYou obviously don't live in Australia. Most of us don't have unlimited bandwidths, and uploads count.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 01:16:07 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 05, 2015, 10:58:01 amIt's great the way you assume I don't know any of that basic stuff, because I come to a different conclusion to what you are sure must be correct. Anyway, couldn't be bothered explaining it to you.QuoteBzzzt. Basic logic failure, symptomatic of your approach to many issues. Did I say it does or should work both ways? No, I didn't. Nor did I suggest allowing random software to write anywhere in the filesystem. You just assume there's only one possible protection model, and it's based on user permissions. You're wrong.However, the question of what external information you allow to influence your understanding of whatever, can actually be a useful analogy for computing systems security. You should think about it.QuoteOnly because you can't imagine any other security method.QuoteArgument from majority view, aka appeal to authority, is invalid reasoning. 'They all do this, so it must be the right and only way'.And it's working soooo well, isn't it? All these heavily secured systems are totally immune to all kinds of hostile code, right?QuoteIndeed, why would anyone want to even be able to see or touch _any_ of the system at all? Why not just make it all totally invisible and untouchable? Then we can all just assume it runs by magic, and all that magic is entirely benevolent and totally acting in our interests, doesn't spy or anything like that, and couldn't have been done better by any human.(To answer that absurdity, I point in the direction of Windows 8, and the soon to be equally or even more loathed Windows 10.)QuoteWow. So you know about that, and actually think it's a good idea. I'm stunned. Are you sure you are human?QuoteExcept when it doesn't. Please don't try and pretend it's impossible for journalled filesystems to get in a snit.QuoteExcept it is easy and cheap. Sole reason it isn't done, is that MS-Intel have no actual interest in making PC systems more robust, or capable of controlling real world machinery that requires guaranteed reliability. (Btw If they had such an interest, there wouldn't be any such thing as the Registry.)QuoteRemind me again how long it took the Linux guys to reverse engineer NTFS enough to produce reliable NTFS drivers that could actually write to an NTFS partition without randomly trashing it. Oh wait, never mind, I think it was about 2007. Wasn't it nice of MS to not publish the specs? (Did they ever?)

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 01:48:07 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 05, 2015, 10:58:01 am+1

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 02:59:30 pm
content: Quote from: TerraHertz on August 05, 2015, 01:16:07 pmBecause 99% of the people have nothing to do there and those who really have what to do, can do this anyway.QuoteAs if being able to thinker with system files without any limitation would give you any clue about spying on you, but if you have the right knowledge to check this, thole limitations would hardly be an obstacle for you anyway.

author: lewis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 03:19:19 pm
content: Quote from: george graves on August 05, 2015, 12:19:51 pmDo you have frosted glass on your bathroom window?

author: rx8pilot
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 05, 2015, 06:22:31 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on August 03, 2015, 12:27:54 amI have been challenged with massive data backup/transportation for many years in entertainment world. I am not doing it anymore, but some of the cameras I have used can be north of 56MB per frame. 8k full RGB. 2-3 cameras rolling about an hour a day at 24-60fps - That adds up to a number of Terabytes per day of shooting. The only practical option is LTO tape (at least a few years ago). The tape is VERY stable and can be stored for decades. Anything that is recorded to a disk or flash is copied as fast as possible to a RAID and then off to tapes.I would be careful about considering DropBox synced PC's as a backup since the DropBox system has delete capability on all of them. A glitch in the database could trigger all your 'backups' to be deleted on the local machines as well as the server. I have not had this problem on DropBox, but I did with a competitive service. I mainly use BOX now, but is is being constantly mirrored to a RAID that I control and nothing can be deleted. So far I have not needed it.I have all my active local data on a mirrored RAID NAS.The RAID is mirrored to another RAID that is WRITE only using ALLWAY sync in one-way modeThe active data is sent to a cloud backup service.large data sets that need high-speed access are on a PC local SSD RAID that is automatically mirrored to the NAS RAID for local backup and the cloud for offline backup.I set it up to be all automatic and using multiple systems, methods, and brands. If my cloud provider goes belly up, multiple HDD failures, I will still be fine.Also, I have high-end enterprise UPS systems as an extra measure.

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 06, 2015, 02:07:20 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on August 05, 2015, 04:17:43 pmJust to be pedantic will have to point out Windows doesn't use any file permissions, it uses ACLs only. And then only since NT/XP. So having permissions for accessing certain files is more the way Windows adopted than the Windows way...