Rigol announces "serious" scope: DS70000 - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 08:43:34 am
content: Seems like Rigol intends to step into the "serious business" sphere:https://www.rigol.com/products/oscillosopes/DS70000.htmlI wonder what kind of price point this monster will be aimed at and if we'll ever see an independent review of it. Interesting it is anyway...

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 10:23:17 am
content: I wonder whom they're after. Keysight MXR series? They have a 6GHz 4 channel model in their lineup, too. But with the kind of software Rigol tends to make, that's going to be a tough sell.

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 10:28:02 am
content: If you have a butt load of others people (company budget) money to put in the finest piece of gear why would you ever not consider the 60+ years of experience from Keysight/Tek/Iwatsy and R&S and buy a first gen Rigol? You'd crazy if you did.

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 11:25:46 am
content: will be fun to fill table...MXR404A Infiniium, 4 GHz, 4 Channels, 16 GSa/s, 400 Mpts/ch, 200,000 wfm/s =$50KTeledyne WaveRunner8404M-R/MS, 4 GHz, 4 Channels, 20 GSa/s (40 GSa/s 2ch) = $?KDS70004 StationMax, 4 GHz, 4 Channels, 20 GSa/s, 2 Gpts, 1,000,000 wfms/s = $?KLecroy WaveMaster SDA6000, 6 GHz, 4 Channels, 10 GSa/s (20 GSa/s 2ch) = $3KRohde & Schwarz RTM3K-104 4 Channel, 1 GHz 2.5 GSa/s (5GSa/s) 40 Mpts/ch$15K

author: Kleinstein
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 11:38:07 am
content: Quote from: rvalente on November 10, 2020, 10:28:02 amAt least initially it would not be so much about US market, more like China, India, Russia. With additional duties and maybe export restrictions the price can be quite attractive there. I would not want to rely on Keysight service in North Korea or Iran.With these scopes, it is not just the scope itself, but also the active probes - not sure if they are compatible with a major brand.Once established it can be attractive to small US companies too, that don't get a special corporate rebate.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 12:15:14 pm
content: UI seems much different than previous Rigol scopes. Which is good thing.Like everybody already said, in this price/target market range, they will have to do better with software polishing and debugging.Not that A-brands do everything perfect, but they perfected "we care about our customers" dance, even if it is not always true. But they do customers relations real well, they make you feel they care..Also, all A brands are very good at very thorough instrument characterisation. Not that they will publish it all, but when asked directly, they know exactly how they instrument behaves and what it can't do.It's just they don't put all it in datasheet. Or sometimes even say it on the record. But they will tell you something like, "...well, now that you asked, I believe it it might not be optimal for that purpose.. For that purpose I would recommend this and that as a better solution..."I'm not sure how deep that mentality goes in Rigol.

author: RobBarter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 12:46:37 pm
content: Well if they want me to compare the GUI with my R&S RTM3004 and write a review I'm up for it. Ease of use was one of my primary considerations when buying my latest scope, enough to pay the large premium. Any new entry into this segment is always going to struggle with the GUI imho. It just takes time to perfect it and iron out the wrinkles/bugs.

author: thinkfat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 02:22:49 pm
content: Not just UI, an instrument in that class has to be much more than just a waveform viewer, but much more of a "what information can we extract from all that data".

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 02:39:36 pm
content: Don't forget the cut down MXR () EXR as well.The Rigol has been in the offing for a while price will surprise you, whether that will temp buyers away from the other big boys who know's?

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 03:03:10 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on November 10, 2020, 11:38:07 amNot just small companies in US, but everywhere. There are people here who own/run small businesses, who know what each penny is worth, and so they are not willing to pour tens of thousands $$ just for the badge, when there are "good enough" competitors for a fraction of price. Remember that measurement equipment doesn't actually measure anything, their operators do, so if operator came up with a way to measure something and it works, nothing else matters. So if some scope works for your use cases, that is all you ever need. Nobody buys some seriously expensive equipment on hope that it will be useful one day in the future.

author: Sighound36
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 03:17:31 pm
content: There is also this unit the Max7000 which can be configured to multi instruments I suspect including a RTA and quality VNA as well as the scopehttps://www.rigol.com/products/oscillosopes/MAX70000.html"The MAX70000 series of time domain workstations are software-definable measuring instruments based on data acquisition and analysis systems and arbitrary signal synthesis. Equipped with the "Phoenix" chipset of RIGOL's independent intellectual property rights, it has four 4GHz analog bandwidth receiving channels and four 5GHz analog bandwidth transmitting channels, and can be flexibly configured into a variety of high-performance instruments according to customer applications."

author: rvalente
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 03:20:34 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on November 10, 2020, 11:38:07 amI could not agree more but, what kind of money is there Iran and North Korea? Other than some crazy dudes saying they're developing nuclear weapons (all regime propaganda IMHO). I understand companies must grow and achieve bigger markets but, this seems to me such a big step forward... I mean, they've not polished the firmware for the MSO5000 yet...In Portuguese we've a say: the wider the step, the bigger the fall.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 03:55:42 pm
content: Quote from: Sighound36 on November 10, 2020, 03:17:31 pmLove how they made a point of that - an appeal to customers concerned about possible American export/sales restrictions?

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 03:59:54 pm
content: Quote from: Kleinstein on November 10, 2020, 11:38:07 amYou'd be surprised how much stuff from the US gets exported to those countries. In the era when the USSR was still a thing US manufacturers would even go so far as to implemented features required by the KGB for monitoring purposes.

author: openloop
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 04:46:47 pm
content: QuoteYes, exactly. That Huawei clusterf*ck, plus Adobe's Venezuela debacle placed a real, tangible value on products free of American IP (whatever that means these days) and service contracts. At least for companies counting on doing business in China.How serious this is in a long run - nobody knows. But some are more paranoid than others, e.g. RISC-V Foundation has moved to Switzerland...In short, yes, this scope has a lot of market potential.

author: Keith956
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 05:14:19 pm
content: Quote from: Mechatrommer on November 10, 2020, 11:25:46 amYou can pick one up much cheaper than that, I paid $9k for a new RTM3104.But yeah, that Rigol looks interesting.

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 05:24:28 pm
content: Quote from: Sighound36 on November 10, 2020, 04:22:25 pmOMG! I want this! It will probably cost more than my car though, so I don't think I will be able to afford it any time soon.

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 06:22:30 pm
content: Quote from: openloop on November 10, 2020, 04:46:47 pmAnother reason (as if we needed one) to be skeptical of cloud services.

author: Datman
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 06:40:51 pm
content: They still have 8-bit input converters, no more...

author: asmi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 06:52:50 pm
content: Quote from: openloop on November 10, 2020, 04:46:47 pmThere is already a market of ITAR-free satellite components (or complete sats). It's not just the restrictions and sanctions per se, but also associated bureaucracy to stay in compliance, even for legitimate customers. Everyone who has even been dealing with ITAR knows how much of the pain the butt it is.

author: ivonenand
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 06:55:27 pm
content: Quote from: rvalente on November 10, 2020, 10:28:02 amSure, Keysight makes great stuff, with lost of good engineers. But, just saying that the company has been around for XY years, does not mean that the next product they ship will be great. Ever heard of the Boeing 737-Max? Boeing has 70+ years of experience. Did lots of great planes, many better than Airbus, yet 737-Max is a disaster. Many of the engineers at Boeing that had experiences (and knew what they were doing) retired, and didn't really write down much. So the 737-Max was done by newer engineers that made all sorts of mistakes, the elder (and now retired) engineers probably wouldn't. So it's useless to say that the company has 70+ engineers, if the newer products are done by newbies.Again, not saying Keysight is a bad company, or that Rigol is a great one.Ivo

author: YetAnotherTechie
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 07:29:53 pm
content: Call me superficial, but having an e-paper label that refreshes when you software-upgrade the device is super cool...Quote

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 07:31:09 pm
content: Quote from: Datman on November 10, 2020, 06:40:51 pmThe video says 16 bits.But 8 bits is enough for anybody when you have a high sample rate. Just average a few samples together and you can have 10, 12, any number of bits you like.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 08:01:50 pm
content: All brands that I used to love disappointed me at some point. So now just buy whatever suits me best, without much looking at the label.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 08:18:44 pm
content: "Knob switch with photoelectric" - great, I'll take two.Not quite on the hilariously terrible level of the Neoden video, but pretty lacking in useful content

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 08:33:33 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on November 10, 2020, 07:31:09 pmSure, this is why Keysight invested the time & $ in full custom designed and produced (StingRay)10 bit converters in the new EXR (16GSPS @ 9 ENOB), MXR (16GSPS @ 9 ENOB), S (20GSPS @ 8.1ENOB) & UXR (256GSPS @ 6.8ENOB) DSOs. You obviously know more about DSOs than Keysight, since they could have just settled for 8 bit, maybe with an ENOB of 5~6 bits, and saved quite a few Millions $!!Here's some images of the Keysight StingRay ADC from ~ 6 years ago, the design started probably over 10 years ago!!Let's hope this new Rigol DSO has a much better designed and performing 8 bit ADC & front end than what Rigol currently has demonstrated, this would put some "pressure" on some of the other DSO folks in the same market spaceBest,

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 09:44:33 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on November 10, 2020, 08:18:44 pmYeah, that's quite funny... I also like their BNC sockets without the signal contact in the center. Probably there wasn't enough time left to design a correct model of the connector. These all-rendered videos aren't worth a lot anyway, at least not to understand at what phase of the design they are.At least, Rigol's new slogan "Possibilities and More" is much better than the last one "Innovation or Nothing"Anyway, I liked their first one "Beyond Measure" best. Whatsoever, all this isn't worth anything if the product isn't competitive. With this new intrument, they may have a real opportunity to enter the real "Professional Sector" if they do it right.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 10, 2020, 10:11:12 pm
content: At least we know what their firmware developers have been working on.It certainly isn't the MSO5000 (although it should be... that's their cash cow right now)

author: ResistorRob
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2020, 05:44:54 am
content: Lot's comments along the lines of "don't know who would buy this", but there are mechanics out there who buy Harbor Freight tools instead of Snap-On, and while that might not be the greatest analogy because the individual buys their own tools and not the company. The point remains there is a place for equipment that delivers most the features and quality at a fraction of the cost.A lot of small companies are pretty cheap when it comes to buying major purchases. I know this first hand because I've worked at a few like this! I'm sure this is a high-margin item so they don't need one on the bench of every engineer in the world to make some good money from it. And I did write "world" and not "America" because they do sell oscilloscopes in multiple countries and will probably move a fair amount of these.This reminds me of Tesla (for the record I hate electric cars. Give me a new Corvette or Bronco!). They started out and pretty much everyone thought they will be a fade and disappear in a few years. Now their stock is worth more than all the big 3 U.S. auto manufacturers combined. True, Rigol doesn't have a 70 year history and I doubt Tek's experience making boat anchors in the 80's is really helping them develop modern test equipment. Oh, but they have the reputation right? Do they really? For a while they were selling very outdated oscilloscopes that were slow and had tiny memory. So they pretty much started over from scratch with their current 3/4/5 series scopes. My whole point of this rambling is to say don't underestimate them. They could give the A-brands a real run for their money within 10 years if they played their cards right. Obviously we all know the shortcomings, but if they address those things they could become a company similar to Hyundai. If you don't know they started selling junk cars for dirt cheap, and now offer similar quality to the A-brands and even have longer warranties while offering a lot for the money.More competition is a good thing for everyone. It drives innovation and helps runaway pricing than if just a few companies have a monopoly. They have come a long way on aesthetics since the 1054z (or whatever the model is. sorry I'm not a Rigol fanboy, lol). This thing looks bad ass, modern, and polished. Way out of my hobbyist budget, but if I was purchasing an oscilloscope for a company it would definitely be on my short list of considerations.

author: _Wim_
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2020, 06:16:37 am
content: Quote from: ResistorRob on November 11, 2020, 05:44:54 amI think this is still Rigols (and other brands not considered an A-brand yet) main challenge: people expect their products to be a fraction of the cost, while the realty is to deliver similar quality & service, prices probably need to be closer together.I see this often in my line of work were we buy machines instead of test equipment (unfortunately), when a new supplier tries to enter the market he has 2 choices:- go low in price => then we say it too cheap to be trusted- go almost equal in price => then we say difference is not large enough to take the "gamble"And yet we complain that our machines from the A-brands are way too expensive...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 11, 2020, 01:52:40 pm
content: Quote from: _Wim_ on November 11, 2020, 06:16:37 amNothing ventured, nothing gained! -Somebodybought the first fledgling Toyotas when they started coming to America... and look what happened!Basically, the only path a brand has to financial success is to become an A brand. The bargains are found while the brand is not there yet (if it ever makes it)!

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2020, 05:38:29 pm
content: I wonder how many of these machine can be sold...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 15, 2020, 08:51:50 pm
content: Quote from: YetAnotherTechie on November 10, 2020, 07:29:53 pmTHIS is really cool...

author: oliv3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 09:25:39 pm
content: Ah, I totally missed this, I just bumped into the model and found this thread. Thanks googleWe talked about 'rigol former engineer resume' and 'next gen' ... i guess this is it then. Somehow I'm happy it will be FAR out of my budgetMeans I can focus on the MS5000 :pTechnically, I think this is the 'Mountain Eagle' (I think it was) platform, so ZnyqMP, 64bits multi-core as the driver of the OS. The app is probably new gui, but same 'insides' (they won't rewrite the flamingo appEntry from scratch, reuse what you can, slap a new UI on top).I've seen the Rigol software development skills, and they are ... desirable. So sadly, I expect that the software quality will be poor, but hopefully they spend more on testing and fixing bug on this platform as this is more high-end/expensive. means probably we won't see any fixes in the MSO5k-8k line ...

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 09:43:46 pm
content: MSO8000 is "Martial Eagle".

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 09:44:03 pm
content: QuoteAs I sold my 5000, the 70000 wasn´t in mind but that were my thoughts too.The MSO5000 came up as the cheapest way to buy the new rigol platform - And they won´t spend much more effort to polish it.This came in my mind as a year after buying has passed and no significant firmware updates were in sight.But I won´t leave rigol and hopes are lying on the DSO/MSO7000.Same there and the answer of my question ( will the 7000 have the same (noisy) frontend as the 5000 ? Yes..) let me vending my 5000 and changing to siglent.And what to say, in the first year appearing, there are two significant updates avaible which are not only fixing some bugs, also nice features on board.This in combination with the much less frontend and much better UI let me never regret to have done the change.Sad rigol, so sad.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 09:58:36 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 10, 2020, 09:44:03 pmSiglent's entry and intermediate level scopes appear to be quite decent, but ask those fellows that put their bet (read: money) on the SDM30*5X series bench multimeters or their top-of-the-range SDG6000X AWGs. They may sing you a different song...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 10:07:38 pm
content: Then they should buy from another brand, everyone´s free to do that.

author: Noy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 10:17:20 pm
content: Rigol may have a noisier frontend but who cares if you need BW for digital / analog "high speed" stuff? For these things i'm more confident with my rigol.. Siglent is close to the edge with their bw / sample rate.And if you need to measure really small signals use an external low noise amplifier...But yes a bit more polish for example for the Bode plot feature would be nice. This is a thing for what i am envious on siglent. But then i think about my dedicated knobs for each channel and i am happy again ;-)

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 10:44:41 pm
content: Ja, die dedizierten Knöpfe hauen es raus..Sorry for the german...Me, I got no problem with non dedicated knobs as I was always used to use them on lecroy scopes for more than 17yrs.QuoteBut not above.In the past, there were 500Mhz or more scopes with less samplerate as 2GSa/s avaible and still usable, so no sweat.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 10:49:55 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 10, 2020, 10:44:41 pmYes but we need remember SDS2504X Plus is only specified as offering 500 MHz capability for 2 channels not 4 and they need be assigned to each ADC to maintain 2 GSa/s so not to challenge Nyquist.RTFM.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 10:52:46 pm
content: "only"...Very good.I don´t need rtfm, why, read the post again.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 10, 2020, 10:55:46 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 10, 2020, 10:52:46 pmI know you know but Noy has missed this.SDS5000X with dual 5 GSa/s ADC's at 1 GHz still meets Nyquist with 4 channels active.

author: Vestom
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2020, 03:44:00 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 10, 2020, 10:55:46 pmI seriously doubt that. Although I don't know much about the SDS5000X, the SDS2k with 500MHz BW does not filter the signal much up to 1GHz and shows plenty of aliasing if pushed. But IMHO that is OK, if you know what you are doing and the scope has more BW limiting options for the frontend (like the SDS2k). But "meeting Nyquist", not so much...E.g. the SDS2k with 500MHz bandwidth can comfortably measure a 800MHz signalhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3220886/?topicseen#msg3220886

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2020, 06:57:14 am
content: Quote from: Datman on November 10, 2020, 06:40:51 pmThat's my concern as well. However, if this helps develop their analysis software and higher bandwidth technology, it could be the beginning of a good direction for them into higher end equipment. The chassis seems fairly deep in comparison to other modern offerings, and the converter doesn't sound as fancy as some of its competitors, but at the right price point and with comprehensive analysis options, it could certainly be a good bang for buck contender. I don't mind the look either, a bit cleaner and more professional in my eyes than the gamer PC signal generators of a couple years back, but still has a bit of the scifi look.A good direction, now let's see how its software handles itself and what it costs.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 11, 2020, 08:15:08 am
content: Quote from: Noy on December 10, 2020, 10:17:20 pmYep, and if you want less noise you can turn on some averaging.8GHz sample rate in a 350MHz 'scope give you plenty of headroom for enabling 4x averaging (or whatever).

author: oliv3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 01:55:42 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on December 10, 2020, 09:43:46 pmI haven't seen teardowns of the MSO8000 yet, but the code is the same. E.g. there's lots of 'if DS7000 -> X; if MSO8000 Y; and that is only for U-Boot/linux. appEntry is even entirely the same I think. Now if you remember looking at the resume of the former rigol employee, He listed 'Project Martial Eagle' as a ZynqMP 64bit platform. It is super likely the DS70000 will be that, and he called i the martial eagle project?But all we need is a photo of the MSO8000 PCB, the silkscreen will reveal it

author: oliv3r
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 01:59:05 pm
content: Quote from: Martin72 on December 10, 2020, 09:44:03 pmWhile the performance of the 7k is higher, the 5k has as its advantage it was done later (check the PCB silkscreen to see the dates) so some bugs where fixed in that platform.In terms of software, I'm starting (but don't have the time yet) to invetarize the various MSO appEntries and try to 'cross-run' them. E.g. run the software from the MSO8000 on the MSO5000 shouldn't be a problem. The hardware platforms are super similar. The FPGA code IS different (the big kintex 7) but appEntry is a single compile for all platforms I think...Quote from: Martin72 on December 10, 2020, 09:44:03 pmMy guess is, that their engineering resources all went into the new DS70000 series ... I still prefer the rigol platform for some reasonBut it's common isn't it? Release and forget...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2022, 01:19:36 pm
content: Batronix got it now:https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS70304.htmlUltravisionIIIPlatform, not the same as on 7000/5000 and 8000(?).Multi-Window display, full hd 15"3Ghz/5Ghz20GSa/s, 1.000.000 wfm/s, up to 2Gpt memory, up to 16bit vertical resolution...A second 3.5" touchdisplay..Photoelectric incremental encoders....Price is "of course" way beyond all other rigol scopes - But will be "cheap" in relation to other scopes in this class.Looks nice!

author: H.O
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2022, 04:32:09 pm
content: That secondary 3.5" touch screen is a novel touch :-)But what about the probe interface/connectors, are they made from carbon fibre, conductive plastic or are they actually covered with black soldermask? Some images looks like renderings, others don'tOh, and the electronic front panel sticker (as already mentioned) is nice! Now you can hack it AND have it reflected on the sticker :-)Seriously though, interesting to see Rigol really stepping up their game, I hope they succeed.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2022, 07:01:32 pm
content: Maybe that was the reason they treated other rigol scopes so "badly", putting all their effort into this monster..Quotehttps://youtu.be/dEmAfCW8z-4In the video, it looks different, "normal"....Edit: And its rendering...

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2022, 09:12:39 pm
content: Martin72:"Batronix got it now:https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS70304.html"Hello,but the noise is too bad.1 mV/div 500 uVrms (5 GHz 50 Ohm)1 V/div 60 mVrms (5 GHz 50 Ohm)Infiniium MXR:1 mV/div 193 (?) uVrms (6 GHz 50 Ohm)1 V/div 16.26 (?) mVrms (6 GHz 50 Ohm)(?) makes it sense 3 or 4 digits for the noise measure?Best regardsegonotto

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 04, 2022, 09:42:37 pm
content: QuoteI don´t think so.Noise...the "old" rigol problem.And with 16bit it got a bandwith of 50/75Mhz.But optically, it looks very cool.

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2022, 02:01:24 am
content: Hello,1 mV/div and 2 mV/div are a magnification of 4 mV/div setting.Now I dont understand the noise for 1mV/div, 2 mV/div and 5 mV/divI expect 4 mV/div has 500 uVrms, but 5 mV/div has 800 uVrms noise (5 GHz 50 Ohm). I expect than only 625 mVrms.Best regardsegonotto

author: moore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2022, 02:56:09 pm
content: Sample rate is a deal breaker for me. 1 channel at 20Gs/s ok, but it drops to 10Gs/s at 2 or more channels? No thanks. I think all of the Keysight and Tek keep full rates for two channels at least.The motorized tilt thingy seems like a 'sizzle' feature that is pretty pointless in actual useage.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2022, 03:14:04 pm
content: Jeesus, wins the "Ugliest design of the year" award

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2022, 03:58:52 pm
content: Quote from: moore on February 05, 2022, 02:56:09 pmYou may want to check the footnotes in the specs: Sample rate reduction works the same way as in most four-channel scopes: As long as one channel of a "Group" is active, sample rate stays at 20G. A group is channel 1+3 and 3+4. So you can have two channels sampling at 20G by using a single channel of each group. Same for the sample memory.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2022, 04:40:25 pm
content: Infinivision 6 scopes got max 20GSa/s, which will be reduced to half when using all groups, therefore same behaviour as rigol.Tek scopes, lecroy scopes will do the same.

author: moore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2022, 05:15:29 pm
content: Quote from: TurboTom on February 05, 2022, 03:58:52 pmAh, OK. That is a puzzling thing for them to call "single channel mode". But I stand corrected.Martin72: yes, I am aware of how most scopes work for sample rate. None of those OEMs call using two channels at once "single channel mode". I can live with 2 channels at max rate rather than 4 or 8.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 05, 2022, 10:00:40 pm
content: To be honest, new Keysight EXR and MXR claim 16GS/s on every channel.

author: Bobson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2022, 12:32:53 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on November 10, 2020, 03:59:54 pmAny examples? Did they try to persuade Hewlett to increase sensitivity levels of their scopes or what? It guess it is BS.Majority of Western T&M equipment (direct sales) came from Japan, Europe (esp. France, West Germany, Denmark) and the most popular US brand was Hewlett-Packard.

author: mawyatt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2022, 01:37:46 pm
content: Quote from: Bobson on February 06, 2022, 12:32:53 pmWow, that's news to me!! The US State Department with ITAR carries a lot power and control over all US exports. Any company intentionally violating ITAR would likely not be around long, and including equipment features to intentionally help support KGB monitoring would result in immediate shut down and widespread criminal prosecution, and likely treason charges!!Best,Edit: Case in point, when IBM developed the Cell Processor for the Playstation back in ~2000 they were paranoid about ITAR. So much so IBM even changed the Cell design so it would not work in anything except the Playstation when they found a Canadian company was lifting the Cell from the Playstation and placing it in a custom motherboard that ran Linux for CAD use. IBM was concerned that ITAR could view this CAD use of the Cell as supporting an US adversary.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2022, 05:07:18 pm
content: Quote from: Bobson on February 06, 2022, 12:32:53 pmhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SORM

author: Bobson
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2022, 05:40:50 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 06, 2022, 05:07:18 pmDo you live in the eighties still? SORM started to deploy in the 21-st century, KGB and USSR are defunct since 1991. There is no mention in the article of any Western company changed anything to match SORM specs. More, SORM does NOT use extra functionality above standard router/switch/firewall features. All major things are made in software using port-mirrored traffic. There is enough support for traffic inspection and redirection in Cisco,Juniper,Nokia/Checkpoint and domestic devices.Wiki's article says Israel Celebrite is used, they are wrong.Your idea is not justified.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2022, 06:18:35 pm
content: Let's just say that I have been working in that particular field a couple of decades ago. I can't name names for the obvious reason western companies don't like to be known for implementing features in their equipment that aid repressive regimes. It took quite a bit of digging and getting rid of red tape to get access to that particular information at that time. I don't want to get political but looking at the current situation in Russia I'd say the USSR isn't really defunct; just not communistic (if it ever was).

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2022, 06:45:51 pm
content: Every company I've ever been involved with has been eager to implement "lawful intercept" for any government that asks. IMO this is the "occam's razor" state of affairs -- thereisa price on freedom and it's approximately $0.00 -- while it's the story where companies have morals and principles that needs to justify itself and provide evidence.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2022, 07:20:13 pm
content: Shall we halt the politics please.

author: moore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2022, 10:18:30 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 05, 2022, 10:00:40 pmInteresting, I was unaware of that. Slower than the competitive Tek models if only measuring 1-2 channels, but then faster for all at once.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2022, 11:21:48 pm
content: Quote from: moore on February 06, 2022, 10:18:30 pm16GS/s is plenty even for 6GHz version. And consistent sample rate is nice to have.

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2022, 11:27:33 pm
content: What are the costs for the new keysight models ?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2022, 12:10:17 am
content: Quote from: Martin72 on February 06, 2022, 11:27:33 pmQuite a bit more than DS70000.But they have much better front end. Also MXR has realtime SA mode too. All that combined with very comprehensive Infiniium software...EXR and MXR are still new, so not yet as polished as you would expect from Keysight. But getting there.Share amount of analysis options, decodes etc is many times what you get from Rigol.All of those (including DS70000) are big, loud machines.. Not general purpose scopes...

author: moore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2022, 01:24:56 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on February 06, 2022, 11:21:48 pmNot for every use case. It's been a complaint I have about KS vs Tek/Lecroy in this regard for these level scopes. If you're looking at things that are well approximated by a sin(x)/x, then 2-3x Nyquist is fine. If your waveform is more complex, you need more points, no getting around it.

author: hapax
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 07, 2022, 02:20:43 pm
content: Quote from: moore on February 05, 2022, 02:56:09 pm"Sizzle" implies something cool or desirable. I think the word "gimmick" might be more appropriate here.

author: hpw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2022, 06:15:48 pm
content: If I am after a such fast scope:- 1..4 probes as as each in x'xxx Eu range to consider, so to pay again the same amount once more- I do not see any figures/performance on the given Jitter analysis SW- fast 50ps pulses results..- would not like to have a simple demo, in other words to evaluate in house to test the beef about- currently all looks for me as marketingmay the EEVblog chef tears down the box ... all is currently to early.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2022, 06:53:08 pm
content: Quote from: hpw on February 07, 2022, 06:15:48 pmI wonder what probes are supplied as standard.What probes generally come included with this class of instrument?(if any)

author: hpw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2022, 07:51:46 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 07, 2022, 06:53:08 pmStandard Accessories:4 Passive HighZ Probes (500 MHz) RP3500ARecommended AccessoriesActive Differential Probe (3.5 GHz BW) PVA8350 ($5,899.00)Active differential probe (5 GHz BW) PVA8500Active differential probe (7 GHz BW) PVA8700 (8.799,00 US$)

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2022, 08:13:40 pm
content: Hello,Fungus wrote: "I wonder what probes are supplied as standard.What probes generally come included with this class of instrument?"In the 6000-series they gave one or two RP6150 500 Ohm probes extra (2 or 4 channels).Best regardsegonotto

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2022, 08:16:48 pm
content: Quote from: hpw on February 07, 2022, 07:51:46 pmDoesn't surprise me, not when every single serial protocol is an separate, optional extra (and probably costs thousands, there's no prices on Batronix)I don't even want to think about how much the real-time spectrum analyzer option costs.Bottom line: A fully loaded system is probably going to be close to 100,000 bucks.I'll wait a few years until they go for $5000 on eBay.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2022, 08:21:17 pm
content: I like how the 'label' on the front is electronic and shows you the configured bandwidth, memory options, etc.Neat.(some sort of e-ink? If you touch it does it show you more info?)

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2022, 09:02:15 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 07, 2022, 08:21:17 pmRigol continues to up the game in hacker friendliness...

author: moore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2022, 09:16:24 pm
content: Quote from: hapax on February 07, 2022, 02:20:43 pmIt's from an old sales idiom - "it's got the sizzle without the steak". The illusion of cool or desirable for people who don't look closely. Weird that they think that works on engineers.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2022, 10:06:13 pm
content: Quote from: moore on February 07, 2022, 01:24:56 am5X Nyquist might seem better, but 2,5-3x Nyquist is always fine. Demanding 32GS/s for 6 GHz bandwidth scope will get you nothing special except much higher price.If you waveform is more complex you need morebandwidthin a first place. So maybe a 10 GHz scope.. Or more.But at these kinds of speeds, signals look differently. It is hard to make a perfect square wave. Signal is limited in bandwidth by definition. As you reach certain speeds, the passive backplane starts becoming very good lowpass filter. Your interconnect has limited bandwidth. There are no perfect sharp edges in there, relative to repetition rate...

author: SilverSolder
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2022, 10:09:24 pm
content: Quote from: moore on February 07, 2022, 09:16:24 pmLook out in your company parking lot. How many engineers' cars are "cool" and/or "desirable"? - a fair proportion, I would guess! QED

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2022, 10:34:21 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on February 07, 2022, 08:16:48 pmWhich hobbyist is prepared to to spend on a monster scope that consumes 500 Watts? Admitted, there have been Tektronix "tube coffins" that had similar consumption but I'ld consider that way too much, especially since an instrument like this probably wouldn't like to be power cycled too frequently. That instrument is clearly aimed at professionals...

author: Martin72
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 12:13:06 am
content: Agree to this, you won´t need that scope for your desires in any way.It´s made for research labs, nothing else.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 01:07:31 am
content: It will still be failing from dried electrolythics, too

author: moore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 06:06:54 am
content: Quote from: SilverSolder on February 07, 2022, 10:09:24 pmI said the _illusion_ of cool and desirable. I would expect most engineers to see through the stupid sizzle, would be the point.2N3055: I know quite a bit more about this subject than you are assuming of me. I'm not going to argue about it here, believe whatever makes you comfortable.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 08:01:47 am
content: Quote from: moore on February 08, 2022, 06:06:54 amI'm not assuming anything. I know nothing about you.That is why I wrote general answer, that I stand by, given the generalized statement that it was based on.If you were to explain better what you do all of us here would be able to discuss it better.There was absolutely no intention to be patronizing or snide on my side.If you got kind of that vibe, I apologize. English is not a native language for me. Online communication is devoid of all social nuances, we have to keep that in mind.I'm not starting an argument. If you have something to teach me, I would be very grateful.I'm fully aware there are members here that are high level scientists and engineers working on cutting edge stuff I can only dream off.By all means, I in particular (and many others here) would like to learn about areas that I don't have opportunity to work with in my (frankly, quite pedestrian) everyday practice..Best,

author: MegaVolt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 09:19:16 am
content: https://youtu.be/MbXbHmuEcV4

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 09:57:24 am
content: Quote from: MegaVolt on February 08, 2022, 09:19:16 amThat thing is motorized?? Does it have Nespresso on the back?

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 10:02:50 am
content: Quote from: tv84 on February 08, 2022, 09:57:24 amIt does have that vibe, doesn't it?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 10:21:25 am
content: Quote from: tv84 on February 08, 2022, 09:57:24 amThat's genius.Completely useless, obviously, but you'd certainly remember it if you saw it at a show.

author: TurboTom
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 10:27:54 am
content: I guess it retracts when the instrument powers down. This may help to prevent the screen from collecting dust...Though if it didn't, one could blame the dust for blurring the taces and making them look fat, not the "trademark" input noise...

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 08, 2022, 03:49:47 pm
content: Hello,if the screen is out, than the left knobs are not easy to manipulate.Best regardsegonotto

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 08:39:21 am
content: Today training at the officein the afternoon will shoot some videos connecting an high speed AWG and pulse generator to the unit ... let's see how it will work!

author: hpw
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 12:25:40 pm
content: Well,interesting would be:. with any 5GHz probes... on a PCB using fast pulses. Jitter Analyzer (lowest resolutions) as using a 10MHz reference given from generator ref output as may using an OXCO. using a fast pulse rise time as 30..50ps. how load the beast really isAnd how it competes to your"Keysight MSOX6004JIT High-Speed / Jitter Best Bundle"

author: normi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 23, 2022, 04:38:09 pm
content: Quote from: simone.pignatti on February 23, 2022, 08:39:21 amPosts some screen shots, would like to see how menus looks VS the MSO5000/7000/8000.

author: simone.pignatti
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 26, 2022, 08:44:53 am
content: Ciao, I'm working on a video, should be ready next week.I add one image here.

author: moore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 05, 2022, 02:56:36 pm
content: Is there a video yet? Does anyone else have experience with this unit now that they're shipping in quantity?