Drones! Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) Registration - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 01:53:24 pm
content: Hi everyone,I just heard that people in the USA who own drones will have to register them with the FAA. See link below:https://www.faa.gov/uas/registration/QUESTIONS:Why have drones been singled out? What ever happened to the hobby remote control model airplane and helicopter industry? We have been flying gas-powered model planes (even jets) and helicopters for many years.I am certain many people have loaded cameras on their models in recent years as the modules have become lighter and cheaper. Sure it takes a bit more skill to fly a model airplane and helicopter especially, and the capabilities may be slightly different as far as flight movement (although a skilled helicopter pilot can get pretty close).So why all the fuss about drones? Is it because of the massive number of drone sales versus helicopters and planes?I was hoping to get into the hobby again with my kids, after missing out as a child myself (I only had the fortune of building a Tamiya Boomerang RC Car). Perhaps I should go down the plane/helicopter route and stay away from Drones?THOUGHTS?

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 02:07:00 pm
content: UPDATE:I'm completely confused as to whether this just targets drones or planes/helicopters as well. On this page....https://www.faa.gov/uas/nprm/... of the site it says:QuoteMy understanding is that if I buy a model plane and/or helicopter, I can fly it without any special registration as long as I follow the rules below. On the other hand, the registration doesn't make it clear if this is a *DRONE-ONLY* requirement, or if it has to do with the use of on-board cameras (and therefore apply to any model with a camera).Which is this:https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-112publ95/pdf/PLAW-112publ95.pdfQuoteMy sentiment at this point....

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 03:07:03 pm
content: A model aircraft shape resembles a real life full size aircraft. The same for a model helicopter. The way I see it those are fine. Drones are drones, they are designed that way, they can be automated, they are not recreational.I dont have an issue with this regulation. Imagine that in 20 years, there could be tens of millions of them flying in the airspace, making commercial flying dangerous, blocking the airspace for hobby gliders, messing up radars and such. It has to be regulated some way.

author: rollatorwieltje
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 03:39:21 pm
content: I think the main difference is the method of control. A remote control model is controlled by line-of-sight. You control the unit while observing it from the ground with your eyes. A UAS is controlled by non-line-of-sight methods, i.e. a camera with monitor or autonomously. Many places make a distinction between those, any in many places it isn't allowedat allto control flying objects without line-of-sight (at least a few years ago when I worked on something similar).Not sure what they are trying to achieve with the registration system. If I read it correctly autonomous flight still isn't allowed anyway, essentially they just cover the flying with on-board camera case. But what is the registration going to solve?

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 04:04:55 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on December 16, 2015, 03:39:21 pmMy mind may be warped, but think on the lines of unmanned weapon. If they are registered someone will theoreticaly be responsible

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 04:23:20 pm
content: Yes, and in addition drones are easier to fly to a specific coordinate.Aside from kinetic injury from crashing into planes, traveling cars on highways or on people, models that can carry a decent payload [ instead of the camera and its battery] can be enhanced for injurious capacity as guide missles, this can be done today. I fear it will not be recreational for long and come under full jurisdiction of the FAA and Homeland Security entirely. Registration is just a first step.Quote from: rollatorwieltje on December 16, 2015, 03:39:21 pm

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 04:27:16 pm
content: Quote from: rollatorwieltje on December 16, 2015, 03:39:21 pmThat's simple, the government class is driven by two goals, more control and and more money. In this case it will be both.

author: georges80
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 04:53:26 pm
content: Regulations is something that needs to be put in place for these things regarding where they can be flown and based on 'class size/weight'.The BIG issue I see is that model planes/helicopters etc that folk play with via remote control are flown in approved parks/areas that are assigned for that use.The consumer drones are flown in suburban areas mostly by nitwits with more money than brains. Just a while ago quite a large quadcopter (i.e. the type with high power motors and 12" blades etc) flown by such a nitwit down the street crashed on the driveway next to our house (with a gopro mounted on it etc). The house to the other side has small kids playing in the front yard.Those blades are more than capable of producing serious to life threatening injuries on a child.We aren't talking about the $10 little plastic quad copters that a kid plays with in a house, these a serious $1k - $3k type flying devices being operated by people with no clue. Even with a clue, the risk of them crashing is quite real.cheers,george.

author: bitslice
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 05:03:20 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on December 16, 2015, 03:07:03 pmmaybe, but I think right now:name=Mohamed + drone = put on a list

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 05:32:10 pm
content: Operation of any unmanned aircraft beyond line of sight should require a pilot's license.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 05:58:43 pm
content: Thanks for chiming in on this drone versus model plane/helicopter hobby issue. I agree there are some distinctions which perhaps are the reasons behind more regulation of drones:1. Drones can be programmed to fly using GPS systems to specific paths2. Drone cameras are much more prevalent and used to fly "POV" style3. Multiple times more drones being sold than model planes/helicopters4. Drones easy to acquire and fly in urban areas with practically no training neededOn the other hand... model airplane/helicopter enthusiasts typically have:1. Amateur hobby clubs and social involvement2. More time building and putting together the models3. Flying clubs to learn operation and designated flying areas4. Smaller number of users, often more educated and invested in their hobby5. Fewer or no cameras, and often not POV just for recording for later playback6. Need line-of-site operation since the POV cameras are not transmitting (see #5)7. No GPS control and non-autonomous flight path programmingNow as far as "weaponizing" these devices, you can argue that either one can be turned into a weapon. I can see some crazy person ruining it for all model plane/helicopter hobbyists by flying one of those into a crowd or on the White House lawn.My personal conclusion:I want to get into the flying hobby, but I think I will feel more personal satisfaction and have my kids involved by building something. Also, I would prefer using a fuel-engine and not just electronic motors and batteries. That already puts most drones off the list for me. The question is whether to use an airplane or helicopter. It may be easier to use a plane to start, both build complexity and flying and cost. As far as mounting a camera, I can attach a camera to record flights and can even use a video transmitter if needed, but most likely will start off just flying line-of-site to learn how to control the plane by viewing from different angles (especially landing the thing).Finally, one of the most fun aspects of getting into the hobby is forming relationships with other hobbyists and the enthusiasm and experience from local clubs, who you can ask about rules and regulations and fly together and get help on projects.So while drones are cool, I don't think the majority of drone-buyers today share the same kind of culture. It seems to me that only a handful of people actually design and make drones and meet up. The majority of owners just buy them cheaply off eBay or Alibaba or Amazon, unbox and charge, and then go out and fly them without any "induction" into the whole world of model flying. I take it the FAA sees this happening at an alarming rate and wants some way to get people to understand what they are doing.It's as if a bunch of cheap radio transmitters start getting sold without any regulations and everybody starts broadcasting all over the place, ruining it for legitimate radio stations and Ham operators. Perhaps that happened in the past and the government did exactly what is happening with drones, that it is protecting the radio wave space for industry and hobbyists who need training and involvement in the community.

author: rfeecs
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 06:10:11 pm
content: Quote from: edy on December 16, 2015, 01:53:24 pmDrones have not been singled out. From the FAQ page link on the registration page:QuoteAll the fuss is drones get a lot of attention lately. Drone strikes in war zones. Amazon and others talking about drone deliveries. Lots of great videos shot by drones on Youtube. Commercial aircraft encountering drones. Police departments talking about drone use. Etc.One of the most popular gifts this season? Drones.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 09:21:42 pm
content: I think this would also qualify....http://www.poweruptoys.com/Paper airplane with a powered propulsion and POV camera...

author: klunkerbus
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 09:45:51 pm
content: Can't help but wonder how many (or few) of the posters here have read through the FAQ on the registration site...

author: rfeecs
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 10:12:42 pm
content: Quote from: klunkerbus on December 16, 2015, 09:45:51 pmHey, I read the first few paragraphs...OK, there is a minimum weight limit of 250gm (0.55 lb). Paper airplanes aren't required to register. Unless they are very heavy.Also, the definition seems to require that they have a remote control system.Here's the full policy page:https://www.faa.gov/uas/regulations_policies/I definitely don't have the attention span to wade through that.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 10:15:11 pm
content: Quote from: klunkerbus on December 16, 2015, 09:45:51 pmThe FAA says this...QuoteThat means that it does NOT have to be registered? Or Approved? What's the difference between registered and approved? What is the point of the registration then?On the other hand... Does a "drone" classify as a "model aircraft"? According to this poster from FAA below it does (it is depicted in the poster along with a model airplane) and therefore it does not need registration if you follow this poster....Sounds to me like if you are responsible and involved in your local hobbyist community, you are fine. If you are one of the many thousands of people who buy a drone over the holidays and start flying it around your backyard, down the street and in a busy urban area then you are going to be in trouble (and well deserving of it).QuoteI think it's 55 lb. Also, the question remains, who needs to register? According to the poster, you don't have to register anything. Most drones are < 55 lb and would be just like your usual model airplane/helicopters as long as you are responsible and follow your local hobbyist community guidelines, you should be fine with whatever craft you fly.On the other hand... Look what Populate Science has to say... regarding the 250g 0.55lb weight and drone registration:http://www.popsci.com/what-drones-can-i-fly-under-new-faa-restrictionsSo what is all this hubabaloo regarding registration? And is it 0.55lb or 55lb? That's a factor of 100x weight difference. Airplanes and helicopters are definitely more than 0.55lb. Only the tiniest drones are 250g or less. Most of the bigger drones are over that weight. If I fly for fun in a field, do I still need to register? Just because I register it, does it mean I can fly it down my urban street? What the heck is going on?

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 10:21:05 pm
content: Quote- big thumbs upQuote- this one is big no-no for beginners - especially when kids involved. electric propulsion is the way to go.Quote- definitely a plane - copters are freaking hard to learn (compared to planes) and it takes few expensive crashes to master them. crashing a plane is often extremely cheap to repair (most of the time it's just few drops of epoxy to repair a crashed plane - while it's always at least a set of expensive rotor blades for a copter)Quotemakes no sense to smash the camera into the ground while learning to flycamera is the last thing a beginner should worry aboutQuote- i suggest to start with simulators on computer - many RC controllers can be connected to computers and you control the simulator with it.regarding the choice of the model - definitely choose a slow flying RC plane. the bigger it is and slower it fly - the easier is to learn to fly the thing. i wasn't listening to others and learned the hard way.... but on the other hand it was a hell of a lot of fun to learn with a small light and very agile planecrashed it like 20 times despite flying the simulator like a king

author: G7PSK
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2015, 10:21:26 pm
content: There is talk of registration requirements here in the UK as well. I think the real problem is just the numbers now available. With the scale model planes most people had to build them, with the drones you can walk into a shop and come out with a drone ready to fly by any one, this leads to idiots getting their hands on them and causing havoc. Another case of the few spoiling it for the many.

author: Shock
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2015, 12:40:22 am
content: Getting my pet eagle as soon as drones become more popular.

author: cimmo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2015, 01:09:18 am
content: I wonder where this sits on the topic of regulation/registration?

author: jobog
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2015, 01:23:18 am
content: The registration requirement covers any remotely operated vehicle, (planes, helicopters, drones) that leaves the ground and weighs between .55 and 55 lbs. You don't have to register every such craft individually. The craft is not registered, the operator is in that when you register you will be given a number that you must affix to every vehicle you own that falls into the weight range. This registration number will allow them to track the vehicle back to the owner if there is an incident.There are already several regulations that have been in place for years:Don't fly within 5 miles of an airport.Stay below 400 feet.Don't fly in congested areas.Of course the people causing the problems are not following any of these rules and they won't follow them because of the registration requirement. Can you imagine the idiot that flies his drone off the end of the runway in New York is going to register, of course not. The people that will register are the ones who are currently following the rules and will continue to do so. The idiots will continue to fly recklessly and without regard for the safety of others. This registration, like many other government requirements, will only accomplish two things. One, is to make it appear that they are doing something to alleviate the problem and two it will raise money that they can then blow on something totally irrelevant to the problem.Congress recently passed the "Special Rule for Model Aircraft" and this registration is in direct conflict. The people flying responsibly will continue to do so with or without this registration and the idiots will continue to be idiots.I have flown RC aircraft for many years and every one of my planes has my name, address, and phone number affixed. The same goes for every member of the RC club I belong to and I'm sure to most members of AMA, "American Modelers Association". If you are going to fly RC aircraft of any type an AMA membership is highly recommended. Among other things, it provides an insurance policy that covers you in the unfortunate chance that one of your models gets away and causes damage to someone or their property. Of course you have to be following all the rules for the policy to apply.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2015, 09:10:20 am
content: Quote from: cimmo on December 17, 2015, 01:09:18 amThere are these special type of Americans. They see something new, the first thought:"I wonder how can I combine this with guns."

author: Mechanical Menace
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2015, 02:28:24 pm
content: Quote from: G7PSK on December 16, 2015, 10:21:26 pmI've been flying model helicopters for years, never had to do any building beyond replacing broken rotors.

author: edy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2015, 08:55:33 pm
content: Quote from: Mechanical Menace on December 17, 2015, 02:28:24 pmTrue. But it is much harder to fly helicopters than drones. As far as I know, helicopters don't have all the sophisticated stabilization control. You need to trim all of the controls yourself otherwise the helicopter will fly out of control and crash very quickly. On the other hand, most of the quadcopter/drones today just hover in the air and self-stabilize the minute you let go of your remote. You push them one way or the other, you bump them, you bounce them, they just recover and sit there hovering. Maybe some newer helicopters have that capability but I don't think they traditionally have done so.I just had my first introduction to model airplanes and got to take control of one in the air with an instructor. We have a farm field designated by the flying club for use, and he brought out a trainer. The plane can be bought either fully assembled or in only a few pieces and quickly assembled in about an hour (large mostly foam-block segments). I think I wil start with one of those, rather than a drone. It is definitely more difficult to fly than a drone and requires some time to learn to control. It is also always moving, you don't have the luxury of hovering in one spot.... So you are constantly needing to keep on the controls and turn it and make sure it flies in the right direction. And landing is the toughest part for a beginner.Basically, all of those elements make model plane/helicopters a more challenging experience, whether or not you decide to build the actual model as well. Certainly it also can involve a bit more social involvement learning from others in a club format where you can be taught proper flying rules and etiquette. On the other hand, someone buying a drone and able to fly it in 1 minute without any experience, on their own, is a very different experience. I'm not saying it is bad... but different. And that makes it more of a concern especially in urban areas.