House wiring issue or noise - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / beginners

author: CkRtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 09:48:49 am
content: Hey guys -Fairly new house (2007) that runs a decent amount of stuff downstairs (plasma TV, receiver, multiple game systems, torch lamps) in the game room. I am in the U.S., and I have an odd issue.It seems that several game systems I own (Japanese Turbo Duo-R, for example) have odd issues - CD-based games not playing back properly, redbook audio issues, etc, while hooked up in the room. I have tried different outlets, surge protectors, etc., however the same issues persist.If I take the system to a different part of the house, it seems to work just fine - 100% of the time.I have experienced the same thing with a system that uses a disk drive - The disks read OK in one room. Take it downstairs, hook it up to the home theater, and ...issues arise.Do you guys know what might be causing this?I have an APC home theater UPS hooked up down there in addition to a couple of other surge protectors. I don't run a large number of devices at the same time, and most things in the room seem to operate just fine. My assumption is that something is plugged in down there that is not playing nice with these old AC/DC converters.What steps should I take to eliminate the problem?Thanks in advance

author: fivefish
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 09:53:38 am
content: Have you measured the wall voltage? With a Multimeter? not a scope!

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 10:19:45 am
content: some really bright source of flashing infra red in the room that's getting in through the CD tray and confusing the CD pickup? LED lights maybe?

author: TheBay
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 11:01:53 am
content: Plasma TV's cause a lot of IR interference, when I had one I couldn't operate the remote on half my equipment!

author: The Magic Rabbit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 02:18:56 pm
content: LED lights getting into a CD tray!?!? Not likely!You say you have a UPS - do you get the issue if you run from the battery backup?Standard trouble shooting practice would be to eliminate equipment one component at a time. My preferred method would be try the device (eg CD player) on its own - working OK then turn on another device? Still OK, turn that off and something else on. Yes, it takes a while, but it's effective on finding the issues.My first thought would be the UPS. Try running without it. Many of them don't use a true Sine Wave output and instead use a modified Sine Wave to simulate AC, even if not using the batteries. Most stuff is fine with that, but some equipment, particularly motorised devices, can experience issues.Sent from my XT1039 using Tapatalk

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 02:32:02 pm
content: Quote from: TheBay on September 24, 2015, 11:01:53 amI'm thinking it is the plasma TV also.

author: The Magic Rabbit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 02:36:39 pm
content: How could a Plasma TV possibly emit enough IR to penetrate the casing of a device that is usually light sealed, and pass through the disc to reach the lens!?!?Sure, a lot of IR could *block* other IR devices, like remote controls and IR headphones, but that's not what is being described.Sent from my XT1039 using Tapatalk

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 02:44:00 pm
content: Quote from: The Magic Rabbit on September 24, 2015, 02:36:39 pmPlasma TVs generate an insane amount of EMI. Drag in another TV and hook it up...Also..Have you tried bypassing your UPS and going directly to the wall with your effected devices??

author: The Magic Rabbit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 02:46:25 pm
content: EMI sure, but that's a totally different thing to IR.Sent from my XT1039 using Tapatalk

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 02:52:00 pm
content: Quote from: The Magic Rabbit on September 24, 2015, 02:46:25 pmCorrect indeed but as a radio amateur I know full well plasma TVs can be heard several houses away.It amazes me that those televisions ever got FCC approval.Well worth considering, the point on entry into the effected device could be controller wires or even but less likely the power lead.These kinds of problems must be dealt with by process of elimination and the TV is the likely suspect followed by the UPS.

author: The Magic Rabbit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 02:55:02 pm
content: Well if you have a magic solution to the interference that the scrambler/mopeds in the street cause knocking out our TV reception every time they go past I'll love you forever, but that's risking a thread hijack, lolSent from my XT1039 using Tapatalk

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 03:00:09 pm
content: Quote from: The Magic Rabbit on September 24, 2015, 02:55:02 pmI wish I did, sorry.

author: The Magic Rabbit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 03:02:04 pm
content: Maybe I could use a PlasmaTV to create an EMP weapon and disable their bikes, lolSent from my XT1039 using Tapatalk

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 03:06:43 pm
content: Quote from: The Magic Rabbit on September 24, 2015, 03:02:04 pmThe screen on a plasma TV works like a big antenna, the cells that emit the light also emit broadband RF noise.Another thing the plasma TV may have a defective mains input filter.It would be interesting to find out what the OP found.

author: singapol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 04:12:59 pm
content: If you think about noise in electrical or electronic systems it invariably has a common route or entry and this is the grounding or earth wiring issue of the ac power supply.So there are ground loops created intentionally or not. I don't think it's the electronic equipment themselves but if anectodal evidence about plasma tv or ups may have some contribution but in general it's a grounding issue. Try downloadingHenry Ott - Noise reduction techniques in electronic systems 2nd. edition 1988( Not his latest) .You might find some tips or help.

author: CkRtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 06:42:51 pm
content: Wow! Thank you for the replies.I assume that there is something hooked up that is not playing well with the power in the room. I am traveling today and will return in a few days, but I will leave a few bits of information here.Trouble items:1: Turbo Duo-R (gaming device): CD drive has issues - either has to start tracking over again or the lens doesn't even seek depending on which outlet I have it plugged into. Game card ("HuCard") side is fine.2: Sharp Twin Famicom (gaming device): disk drive activates but can't read disk properly. Cartridge side is fine.3: Sega CDX powers up to color problems when plugged into surge protector. Switched it to the second plug on the same outlet pair, and it was fine.I can take 1 & 2 above to a different room, and the problem doesn't happen.Changing the outlet of the Duo-R inside the room seemed to alter the problems (made it worse and then ...not as bad). I tried: Wall plate 1; socket 1 (straight), wall plate 1; socket 2 (surge protector), wall plate 2; socket 1 (straight), power distribution unit (APC AP9562) hooked into UPS (APC J25B) on wall plate 3; socket 1.Interesting issues of note?1: Plasma buzzes (transformers, I assume) quite noticeably on power up. This is a recent (last few months) development.2: Torch lamps sometimes buzz for awhile on power up.3: Garage door opener on shared wall of room tends to stick (acts like it wants to open for a split second and then goes, "meh.")I said "on power up" because I think the buzz gets a bit better after warm-up.When I get back, I think I might take a laptop downstairs and see if I can get some data off the UPS. I also have a Sony PVM I could take downstairs to plug-in and test with the consoles with the plasma powered down (if that might make a difference).

author: The Magic Rabbit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 07:18:32 pm
content: If you can run stuff off the UPS only via the battery, including the plasma, then if it still acted up it couldn't be the mains since you wouldn't be using it.Sent from my XT1039 using Tapatalk

author: jitter
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 07:21:05 pm
content: Quote from: CkRtech on September 24, 2015, 06:42:51 pmAnd is it getting worse slowly as time goes by?

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 24, 2015, 09:20:16 pm
content: Quote from: CkRtech on September 24, 2015, 06:42:51 pmDo you have any problems with lights that dim or get bright when appliances such as a fridge or washing machine come on? If you do the problem is more serious.

author: singapol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2015, 03:17:55 am
content: Quote from: CkRtech on September 24, 2015, 06:42:51 pmEither AC power supply got noise which may be ground issues or the AP9562.If the CD drives are aging/old models you may have cd laser lens about to "retire".QuotePlasma may have switching power supply problem: detoriated caps...high esr. Try changing/replacing them.Torch lamp: the torch power system : I don't think they use choke in the circuit could that oscillate because of aging?Garage door: Aging solenoid actuator or associated component. Bad wiring?

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2015, 03:54:10 am
content: Quote from: singapol on September 24, 2015, 04:12:59 pmhttp://www.physics.utah.edu/~jui/3620-6620/Files/ott.pdfPosted link inhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/electronics-primers-course-material-and-books/thanks

author: The Magic Rabbit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2015, 10:05:21 am
content: My old HiFi amp had the same symptoms with the power transformer buzzing on startup, so maybe the cause is the same.In my case, the lacquer holding metal plates together had broken down a little, opening a gap, which caused vibration and the subsequent mechanical buzz. As the system warmed up, so the metal expands very slightly, and it closed the gap enough for the bus to become far less audible. It didn't seem to cause any electrical interference though, just an annoying buzz from the amp.Not wanting to contemplate trying to fix a transformer, I just found one the same with the help of a local musical equipment repair CD centre, and replaced it.Sent from my XT1039 using Tapatalk

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 25, 2015, 01:02:23 pm
content: I have a client I maintain computer equipment for that was having strange problems. The indivudal is a writer and has a home office, One day while I was there doing maintenance and discussing the future upgrade of his main computer I happened to catch the lights in the kitchen brightening as the washer started up in the laundry room. Another family member had been having problems with an older computer randomly locking up, looks like we just found the problem. Turns out in part of the house the mains voltage was dropping below eighty volts when the washer would start up, while in another part of the house it was exceeding one hundred forty volts.It is a no-brain'er as to what was going on ether the neutral connection in the breaker box was degrading or it was on the power poll. Turns out after the electrician paid a visit the problem was on the utility poll and the power company was out in no time to fix it. Meanwhile the old computer got upgraded, and all the surge protectors were replaced just for good measure.

author: CkRtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 02:27:50 am
content: Some updates -I haven't yet tried the battery-only test or doing an elimination test by pulling devices. I'll need to clean up a bit and pull things away from the wall in order to do that.What I do know -1: UPS is reporting 121-123 volts input. It has not logged any blackouts, brownouts, etc. Self test is good, and there is no visual ripple in the TV image, lights flickering, etc, when it switches to battery.2: I have not noticed any lights dimming or anything of that nature when something like a fridge compressor kicks on.3: The plasma buzz does not seem to be getting worse with time, but it has become noticeable recently. it seems to calm down a bit after the TV has been powered up for awhile.4: A friend that has the same system (Turbo Duo-R) that I do has it work at his place just fine and not work at mine in the room where my equipment is - similar to how I can carry mine upstairs and it works OK.5: I tried running the system with the TV and lights turned off (still plugged in) and still had the same problem.6: Humbly I submit that I am cheating a bit with the power to the two Japanese systems as they are 100V AC adapters without conversion from US, however the Sega system I mentioned had its issue (resolved via a different plug instead of an existing surge protector) & it is a US system.Sheepishly I ask - Is it possible that the 100V adapters happen to be just happy enough despite the variation in expected input voltage while plugged into an American outlet upstairs & at my friends place vs. in this room where I have all of my other stuff hooked up? If so, I would then say that the American Sega issue was just a fluke and I need a Jap->US Convertor to *properly* convert. (I haven't done that in the three places I have lived since obtaining Japanese devices, but I am all ears with you guys regarding this)That said - it seems like at least 3 strikes means something should be out (or fixed).

author: singapol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 04:01:05 am
content: Let's put it this way if the Japanese devices are switchmode powered where it states you can pump infrom 80V to 120 or 230V then you are all right . Electronic circuits need precise voltages that's why all the power regulation.

author: The Magic Rabbit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 08:14:51 am
content: You need to do some proper elimination tests. If you have devices not intended for the voltage you are supplying plugged into a UPS that may well cause the problem. However, that depends on the design of the UPS, and the design of the power supply in the device, and what other things plugged in may interfere.Given the way your jumping around between devices, it may even be you just have too much coming off the UPS.If you have cable spaghetti it may also be down to that. Neat cabling means easier trouble shooting and less trouble to begin with.You have too many things going on at once. You're only going to solve this by approaching it systematically.Sent from my XT1039 using Tapatalk

author: DenzilPenberthy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 08:56:55 am
content: Are your Japanese devices suitable for 60Hz? Presumably Japanese stuff would be designed to cope with 50 or 60 Hz because they use both frequencies there but it was just a thought that crossed my mind.

author: AF6LJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 02:17:08 pm
content: I agree you need to conduct some proper elimination tests and make sure everything is operating on its intended voltage and your UPS is not overloaded.

author: Seekonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 04:24:59 pm
content: In commercial applications I have had luck with RC networks getting rid of noise. Once upon a time there were lots of incandescent lamps on the line to put a termination load on the line. Now any noise just keeps ringing as it is reflected back. Try a 5 ohm couple watt resistor in series with about 1uF. Make that up from a couple X2 MKP polypropylene (not MKT polyester) capacitors in parallel.

author: Tomorokoshi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 04:34:57 pm
content: Check if the outlets are wired using stab connections.

author: CkRtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 08:22:25 pm
content: Lunch break quick updates. I didn't do elimination tests, but please read on if you could (#4 below)...1: AC adapter is 100V 50-60Hz input.2: Used a possible replacement AC adapter (Sega CDX) that is U.S. and it still had issues.3: It does sometimes work...but redbook audio cuts out & sometimes graphics get garbled.4: Took unit back upstairs to workbench, plugged it into the same stuff I always do where it "always works"....and it has issues - both cd read issues and graphics issues. I can power up and power down on the same socket on the surge protector, and the issues come and go.I could....assume it is the system and say... replace all the capacitors in the system (yay). That doesn't explain similar cd drive issues in my friend's system when his system is over here, but I don't think his system has been re-capped, either. These systems are from circa 1992.Despite what I have said about a couple of other systems having issues in my house, I do find it odd that I have SO many other devices (granted, more modern) that do not exhibit issues.I just wonder if I have been on the wrong track, here.

author: Deathwish
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 10:29:07 pm
content: I do some freaky things to find faults at times like switch of the plasma TV and unplug it from the wall outlet, grab an extension cable reel plug it into a wall socket in a room you usually have no problems in and plug in the kit you want to use with a seperate TV and see if it occurs then. Then plug back in the Plasma TV and any other stuff one at a time.It will at least tell you if it is the wall outlet, the TV or any other kit by elimination

author: singapol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 10:35:43 pm
content: Quote from: CkRtech on September 30, 2015, 08:22:25 pmI do believe the cd lasers have reached their end of life either that or you have dry or broken solder jointson the pcb or power supply issues.

author: The Magic Rabbit
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 30, 2015, 11:01:13 pm
content: This is why you need to be systematic.Is this "several games systems" or one particular games system?We could be shooting on the dark for months. If you don't approach this systematically I don't think you'll get anywhere.Sent from my XT1039 using Tapatalk

author: CkRtech
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 27, 2015, 06:06:35 am
content: Quote from: singapol on September 30, 2015, 10:35:43 pmI replaced all the caps on the board as well as the laser, and the performance is much more consistent. I took it downstairs to the problem room, and it fired up and played three games without issues. Obviously I will continue to monitor (and have a few other mods to do on this before I "close" the case and screw everything back together, but I wanted to report on this due to the fact a laser was involved and was basically finicky.I didn't even have to adjust any of the pots for the cd component after putting in the new laser.