Professional Prototyping Hardware Defined (Breadboard, Jumpers, low R stuff) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 09:41:39 pm
content: Failed to find a dedicated prototyping section on the forum so I'll just ask here;What defines 'professional grade hardware' when it comes to breadboard and jumper wires construction? So far I've only managed to get rip'ed off by so many sellers who've claimed having the hardware I was looking for to end up with a whole lot of non-recycle waste. From severely warped Bboards, steel contacts that, well, doesn't contact up to Rs0.7Ω between 4 holes on the LCR, etc etc. Not going to get into the badly crimped Dupon jumper leads with probably fake AL core and oxidized connectors (Rs0.235Ω/50mm, wtf!). /rant_over, thank you!My current solution: I've managed to find 1 seller (one, literally) who have "true" phosphor bronze contacts with a surprisingly consistent spring action all across holes (round they are) with fair Rs and Cs results. For the jumper leads I have a feeling I have no other choice but to make them myself out of some single core tinned oxygen-free copper wiring and terminated with a machined gold plated pin (Rs0.012Ω/50mm).So... how do "you" do it?Please share because not only I'm wasting a whole lot of time sourcing rubbish (just so I can test them, because sellers don't), I can't seem to find anyone that sells "fully tested" and effective prototyping kits out there. Am I missing anything??ps. I understand that prototyping on solder-less boards isn't exactly a 'professional' approach, but I seriously doubt any of you (us?) have any choice e.g. to rig a quick circuit simulation.

author: Ian.M
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 10:14:10 pm
content: You don't need OFC copper jumper wires, the minuscule conductivity improvement OFC copper provides over ordinary electrical grade copper is swamped by the contact resistance at the ends. Don't use 'Dupont' jumpers for on-board connections, only use them for external connections. For on-board connections use 24 to 26 AWG insulated solid-core tinned copper wire, cut to fit the specific circuit. Either make up your own' 'Dupont' jumpers, or buy them from a first world supplier, preferably one with a bricks&mortar presence on your continent, (ideally in your country), not from a far east eSeller. That way, QC becomes their buyer's problem, not yours.Far east breadboards are a total crap-shoot and there's far more crap than gold (or even bronze )out there. There are a very few western breadboard manufacturers left. Its a fairly frequent topic here, see:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/who-made-the-high-quality-breadboard/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/3m-breadboards-for-cheap/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-is-so-great-about-3m-breadboards/

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 10:38:56 pm
content: Thanks for your input Ian. No surprise this is a recurrent topic and issue, we don't have anyone testing their (potentially garbage) BB and leads. No specs, Rs/Cs tests, no material properties, tolerance, nada, just nothing, just a "Buy my Holed and Oxidized garbage for a few bucks, gents". On the location comment, I did source from self-called reputable and professional sellers to find out most if not all source their stuff out of the great orient for cents and re-sell for dollars. Literally thrown away 20+ BB and 100's of dupon leads today... those same I sourced from these 'local' guys over the last 2~3 weeks.I think the challenge is to find someone in that "Far-East" who actually manufacture quality prototyping equipment. The kits I have shown on those op's pics is in fact mfg in the far-east, so are those machined gold plated pins & tinned copper wiring I got. I'd share the contact but not here to "advertise". Feel free to do so if you know anyone who does test before selling prototyping kits, by all means!Just curious as how you guys mitigate this (apparently recurrent) problem. This needs to be sorted out (I think). Ridiculous what we have access too... as if any bloody circuit will work or behave with the stuff I've received, what a mess lol. Just about okay for the led blinker, perhaps?

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 20, 2020, 10:52:37 pm
content: Year 2020 and still having to cope with absolute garbage sold to prototype high tech stuff, what an embarrassment. Good god guysFeel free to name & shame those who sells those few bucks BB and oxidized fly leads, this sh*t needs to stop. Wasted literally 20~30 hours trying to get a "half-functional" kit. Not a $ issue, at all, that time guys...

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 07:36:46 am
content: Sorry, cannot point you to suppliers other than RS or Farnell/Element14.There is no need for prototype bread boards in commercial electronics development in most companies now. Most prototypes are 1st try pre-production PCBs. Has been like that at every company I have worked at for more than 15 years now.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 10:33:22 am
content: How professional prototyping is done:Click to enlarge, and note the distinct lack of solderless breadboards.

author: Fred27
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 10:43:28 am
content: I can't see how professional and breadboard go together. Breadboards can be useful for quickly checking something but as soon as you get anywhere near "professional" prototyping you should really be spinning up a PCB.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 11:15:04 am
content: Quote from: Mecanix on July 20, 2020, 09:41:39 pmWho cares whether or not it is "professional"; what matters is the results. Solderless breadboards are the work of the devil: you spend more time debugging the construction than you do debugging your circuit, due to variable (on a second-by-second basis) contact resistance, inductance and capacitance. Professionals avoid solderless breadboards because they are ineffective.To rig a quick circuitsimulation, I would use LTSpice.To rig a quick circuit, I always use "manhattan" or "rats nest" or "dead bug" techniques. They arefast, effective, and can even be a deliverable to a customer. That isn't just my opinion, it is the opinion of many "masters".Have a look at the references below...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/copperless-perfboard-wire-wrap-for-rf-prototyping/msg2672034/#msg2672034https://bristol.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=resources:pcb#avoiding_solderless_breadboards

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 11:17:25 am
content: Quote from: Fred27 on July 21, 2020, 10:43:28 amNot necessarily, for example

author: ChristofferB
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 12:03:08 pm
content: I agree with the copper clad prototyping thing.Bread boards are an inherently problematic solution, and "proffessional" through-hole prototyping systems (wirewrap, vero-wire etc.) are not cheap at all.I think it boils down to, if you need a high quality bread board, then you don't. You need an altogether better solution.For analog circuits, I find manhattan prototyping on copper clad board is exactly as fast as breadboarding.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 12:07:44 pm
content: Agree, use solder.The more you solder, the quicker you get with it.It doesn't need to be pretty. It may or may not use a copper clad ground plane. Whatever floats your boat.Plugging an IC, a few passives and ten dupont wires into a breadboard takes 1 minute.Soldering the same stuff ("Manhattan" style for example) takes about 2-3 minutes once you get into it.The small amount of "saved" time is irrelevant, because the latter is way more reliable, and because then you will be measuring The Thing for 15 minutes before you do a small iterative chance (soldering for 10 seconds, swapping a part or something).Spinning a PCB, OTOH, takes from a day to a week. Maybe two hours if you have in-house quick prototype fab, but then you likely won't have through hole plating or multilayer so quite limiting. In any case, this is a non-option for early prototyping where quick (minutes) cycles are important. At the later stage, you spin a PCB which completes all the 1000 expected parts and connections, then make the 10 necessary modifications to it. This works when you havemostof the things kinda nailed down, but not when you still need proof-of-concepts.I haven't used a breadboard for a decade. I don't understand the argument how they would be handy even for the "simple" stuff. Soldering time is O(n), just like breadboarding!

author: E-Design
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 12:07:50 pm
content: As a professional in the electronics design industry, I will say this. Breadboards and jumper wires will never be considered "professional" - no matter how reliable and nice looking.one makes them. Today, PCB's are far too easy and low cost to be messing around with any of that other stuff. One goal of a prototype is to take a first cut at the actual design - so that means just go for a first cut PCB. It could be hacked up of course to fix bugs and even have some of those copper clad boards, but its not going to be sitting on a solderless breadboard.Thats not saying solderless breadboards aren't useful or important. Indeed, they allow some very fast investigation for some things that could make sense. But in my mind, that would be done before getting a first cut proto PCB.Just another opinion.

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 21, 2020, 12:13:56 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 21, 2020, 11:17:25 amWork of art, and skillful. Thanks for sharing those, inspiring. Pretty much what I've been bound too lately, although not as elegant, similar processes were imposed to get result in some of the real-life sim I had to put up with (i.e. single layer pcb cnc mill'ed with a 30deg endmill and then manually drilled). Tried/failed chemical etching fantasies though (tried once mind you, and wont ever again lol), and now hope to move on to bread-boarding shall we have a semi-professional approach to that. When I say semi I mean by that ultra low impedance (preferably), stable contacts and some decent leads & pins. For some fck ing strange reason this is nowhere to be found although fairly easy to achieve diy with the right material/construction, I'm guessing.Not having access to half-functioning kits commercially, in 2020, is just mind boggling to me. Bet eSellers feeding off the ignorant a buck at at a time selling warped plastics and oxidized non-treated surfaces/ferrous materials is all okay still today and the way to go! Go figure...

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 12:01:48 am
content: We were using 3M breadboards in the 70's/80's. Consider that most of the circuits were digital and we were using a lot of 4000 CMOS back then. Circuit boards cost a lot more back then and we would spend a lot more upfront time tying to workout any problems. I wish I had some pictures of some of the crazy things we had built using them. Some were works of art.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 12:09:48 am
content: Not my year, but 6.111 was one of my favorite undergrad courses. We had a “nerd kit” (briefcase with multiple breadboards and a back plane connector similar to the TI NuBus). This year looks like more generic kits. Final project was with at least one other student (by requirement) which meant usually multiple of these kits linked together.

author: phil from seattle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 12:36:24 am
content: I use solderless BBs for a number of things but mostly to power up some part or module to see how to talk to it. Nothing high speed, though. Mainly the SBB just holds the parts in place to keep them from shorting. As others have said, go straight to PCBs if you can. I will often buy or make simple breakout or "partial" boards before spinning up the "final" pcb. I use OSHPark for that a lot. Not super fast but very cheap for small stuff. Others will etch or mill small test boards.You can find breakout boards for a lot of the standard IC footprints, by the way.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 07:22:26 am
content: Quote from: Mecanix on July 21, 2020, 12:13:56 pmNo need to resort to milling per se. The gaps in those PCBs were hand cut using a dremel and a spherical dental burr - and a little practice.Do have a look at the "manhattan" examples I pointed to inhttps://bristol.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=resources:pcb#avoiding_solderless_breadboardsYou will find them educational.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 07:26:31 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on July 22, 2020, 12:09:48 amAnd then somebody dropped some equipment onto the bench with a thump, and you had to figure out which connection had moved. Not my idea of a good use of my time.

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 08:08:43 am
content: Someone who is a 'professional' will not throw out breadboards cause some people on the internet say they are not 'professional'. Just because a picture of Jim Williams' desk doesn't have a breadboard on it does not mean a) he never used them and b) you shouldn't use them.Use whatever works. If breadboards work for your application, great. I still use them a lot because sometimes I just need to quickly add a low-speed buffer in front of a signal or something like that, and guess what, making a PCB takes time. It has nill to do with cost, or effort, or performance. It has to do with 'I need to test this *now*', and a breadboard works.Know the limitations, and go with them. I agree that for most prototyping work, you should just get it onto a cheap PCB when it is anything fast or sensitive. It is so easy to do that, so there is no reason not to. But never feel like you shouldn't use a breadboard in a situation 'because it is not professional'.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 09:05:49 am
content: Quote from: TheUnnamedNewbie on July 22, 2020, 08:08:43 amMy comments have been aboutsolderlessbreadboards, not about other types of breadboards. Contrary to your statement, Jim Williams used breadboards extensively - as shown in the picture.You should indeed use whatever works and know the limitations. Beginners are unlikely to know the latter and how it affects the (probability of the) former. More importantly, they are unlikely to be able to distinguish between the consequences of a construction technique and the consequences of their design.Finally, it is not solderless breadboard vs PCB - there are many alternatives, as illustrated inhttps://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/Many of those are obsolete, but manhattan and a few others remain valuable.Manhattan and dead-bug techniques are also fast to implement, especially when considering debugging time.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 09:15:23 am
content: It’s so frustrating how in ANY question about (solderless) breadboards, the anti-breadboard brigade comes out with their anti-breadboard nonsense, acting as though:a) prototyping were the only thing done on breadboards (it’s not; they’re more for experimenting, which is different from prototyping)b) all breadboards were created equal, which they’re decidedly not, andc) because breadboards aren’t suited to all types of circuits (which is absolutely correct), that they have no value for any purpose whatsoever (which is dead wrong).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 09:22:15 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 07:26:31 amIf that was enough to cause a connection to move, then the breadboard was junk to begin with, or has been so horribly abused as to have merited throwing out long ago. A high quality breadboard that hasn’t been abused holds onto leads and wirestightly.Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:05:49 amThe picture shows lots of soldered prototypes using various methods, but NO breadboarding!!Breadboard ≠ prototype!!!!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 09:27:30 am
content: Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 09:15:23 amI knowingly and deliberately express strident views about solderless breadboards. That's based on myunnecessarilyhaving wasted too much time with them, andhaving seen beginners have more demoralising experiences. If a beginner's circuit fails to work, all too often theyincorrectlythink "I'm not clever enough and this is too difficult for me; I'm giving up".In that context, I don't see any significant difference between experimenting and prototyping.As for not all breadboards being equal... Agreed. The problems are identifying the better (not good) onesbefore purchasing them, and what happens if poor ones have been purchased (or become poor over time).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 09:35:10 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:27:30 amBut your tone is unnecessarily alarmist and discouraging, needlessly antagonistic, and ultimately unhelpful.I am now working at a technical training center, where dozens of apprentices (almost entirely teenagers) come for classes each year. Breadboards are essential to lashing together the basic circuits used to learn electronics theory.And heck, even the breadboarding failures are valuable, in that they teach troubleshooting skills, and learning the limits of your equipment.Your message, which is ultimately “use the right tool for the job” would be far better received if you delivered it in an intellectually honest, useful way, instead of as a cantankerous harpy.Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:27:30 amThen it’s been far too long since you were a beginner.Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:27:30 amWell, it’s not hard to identify a good one: buy a 3M.Wearing out is indeed the bigger challenge. Now, in my experience, even a fairly abused 3M still holds onto leads quite well. Others here on the forums have noted that they’re still using the same ones 30 years later.Meanwhile, I’ve relegated most of the fleabay breadboards I originally bought to being little more than soldering jigs. Ain’t nobody got time fo’ 2 ohm contact resistance!P.S. I edited my post above after you responded to it, FYI.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 09:43:40 am
content: Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 09:22:15 amThose caveats are important. Ensuring they are valid is non-trivial in the real world.There are easy alternatives with better performance and more repeatable results; not using them is somewhat peverse IMNSHO

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 09:53:56 am
content: Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 09:35:10 amNot really. I've been a beginner since the 60s - because I am always doing new things that are outside my previous experience.QuoteI use a 40yo Tek 485, despite having more modern scopes. That doesn't mean I would recommend a beginner buys one!QuoteOften it is thevaryingresistance that causes "effects"!QuoteNoted, understood, accepted. I've done similar things

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 10:12:28 am
content: P.P.S to my previous reply: one other thing you forget, tggzzz: soldering is also a skill that must be acquired and honed. If the first year apprentices had to solder each basic circuit they were learning, we’d be spending half the time soldering, and then debugging their soldering, before they could begin to get to the actual lesson. Plus, when soldered, simple mistakes become harder to fix, and components become harder to reuse. (In an educational setting, that’s a factor, too.) There’s no question that breadboarding is a great solutionfor this application.Note that in the curriculum, construction methodology is its own course. In the theory courses, the students aren’t supposed to be learning/practicing how to solder. (And conversely, in the construction courses, they’re not meant to understand the complex circuits they’re assembling.)Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:43:40 amI really don’t think they are, as long as you’re notstartingwith unknown eBay garbage. If you’ve started with a 3M (or Global Specialties, or one of the handful of established high quality manufacturers), it’s easy to notice if it’s gone bad.Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:43:40 amNobody is arguing that those construction methodsdon’tperform better. But you refuse to acknowledge their downsides, like being much slower to build (especially for a beginner) and costlier (since you’re generally not disassembling them afterwards), and you refuse to acknowledge the benefits of solderless breadboards.A good engineer knows when to apply a given construction method. And part of getting to that point is experiencing how different methods behave. IM(also NSH)O, bumping into the limitations of breadboarding is itself a useful experience.Again, remember that youhaven’tbeen a beginner in averylong time. Those of us who have, remember the value of, and joy in, being able to plug in a couple of simple components and seeing a circuit come to life for the first time. And how much we learned from blowing up a transistor or LED, and being able to reconnect a wire in two seconds after seeing what we did wrong.Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:53:56 amBeing a lifelong learner (which is a good thing) does NOT make you a beginner!!Over the years, you’ve accumulated TONS of knowledge that helps you understand the new things, and eliminate pitfalls that a beginner won’t know about. Experience solidifies the foundational knowledge that is then applicable to new challenges. A beginner simply doesn’t have those, and has to be allowed to accrue it.And though I assume (hope?) that you meant that comment somewhat tongue-in-cheek, it’s ultimately rather dismissive ofactualbeginners.Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:53:56 amAnd completely irrelevant, as it’s a completely different type of tool. A new 3M breadboard bought today is identical to a new one made in 1975.Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:53:56 amIn a cheapie? Yup. But in a good breadboard like a 3M, it’s pretty darned consistent.Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:53:56 amIt was just a heads-up for context, and in case you wanted to address the added point.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 10:34:31 am
content: Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 10:12:28 amThose are valid points. I've a little experience with getting absolute beginners started with construction and testing, but not as much as yours.A counterpoint is that soldering is a useful general purpose skill for the rest of their lives.QuoteOh, I still remember it - and see it in other people. Examples: daughter and people in the local hackspace.QuoteI'll disagree. I started before university with audio and digital systems. After that I've made things using low-noise analogue, optical, LANs, RLANs, semi-custom, FPGA, hard-realtime software, cell system monitoring, soft realtime high availability servers, web shops and fulfillment, and I'm sure other things.In none of those was I able to go on a course to learn them, since they were all too new. Instead it was reading the literature, working things out from first principles, and trial and error. In that sense I've always been a beginner - but I do try to apply my experience from a previous field (e.g. solderless breadboards) to a new field.Recently I've started playing with RF/microwave, and there is relatively little in common with those technologies with my previous experience. Yes, I am a beginner at RF, and enjoying it.QuoteNot intentionally; helping beginners succeed at new things is fun.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 10:36:19 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 10:34:31 amThose are valid points. I've a little experience with getting absolute beginners started with construction and testing, but not as much as yours.A counterpoint is that soldering is a useful general purpose skill for the rest of their lives.QuoteOh, I still remember it - and see it in other people. Examples: daughter and people in the local hackspace.QuoteI'll disagree. I started before university with audio and digital systems. After that I've made things using low-noise analogue, optical, LANs, RLANs, semi-custom, FPGA, hard-realtime software, cell system monitoring, soft realtime high availability servers, web shops and fulfillment, and I'm sure other things.In none of those was I able to go on a course to learn them, since they were all too new. Instead it was reading the literature, working things out from first principles, and trial and error. In that sense I've always been a beginner - but I do try to apply my experience from a previous field (e.g. solderless breadboards) to a new field.Recently I've started playing with RF/microwave, and there is relatively little in common with those technologies with my previous experience. Yes, I am a beginner at RF, and enjoying it.SMD components are another such new technology; to my surprise I now prefer them.QuoteNot intentionally; helping beginners succeed at new things is fun.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 10:54:31 am
content: The point is, soldering is an essential skill to any electronic hobbyist or professional; you just can't avoid it because many parts just do not fit the solderless breadboard as-is.OTOH, working with solderless breadboards is completely optional.This means comparing between them isn't equal to begin with.If it works for youbetterthan soldering, then go ahead. Using the right tools helps. But I disagree with it being the "right tool" for almost anything. But I'll admit this is more an opinion than an indisputable fact.But, if the solderless breadboard is working roughly the same (or even worse) than soldering iron, then, if you have a choice of having to use one tool to do everything, or swapping between two tools to achieve the same, I'd recommend using one tool and becoming very good with it. Use multiple different tools only when they offer significant benefits.Similarly, professional chefs do not have a collection of dozens of different knives (as advertised on TV); instead, they have a few which they take good care of, sharpen every day, and can chop faster with the simple knife than using all modern gadgets available.For electronic hobbyist or professional, soldering iron is this "knife". The simpler the tools, the more you can do with them. The more you use them, the better you get.I hosted a university course about switched-mode converters, where the students prototyped buck and boost converters out of discrete parts and measured them. Obviously, not using solderless breadboards, but air-wiring the components. Not much actual wire was needed, either. Most had never used soldering iron. Yet with a little bit of guidance, the results were acceptable, including large thermal mass components, after about half an hour of practice. Getting from zero to a working buck converter layout was, I think, an hour average, or two hours worst case.Measuring was quite easy because now you can probe the rigid soldered thing from every node without it getting apart all the time. This worked very fine for total beginners, IMHO, and I can't see how any type of solderless solution would be any better (especially given the layout requirements of switch mode converters). And it was this measurement and profiling step which took most of the time, say 3-4 hours easily to get it work and grab scope screenshots for a simple report. During this time, a few students needed to swap some parts or correct wiring mistakes - back to the soldering lab - but it wasn't a problem at alleven with the irons being in the next room. And it's much better when you have the iron on your workbench.And, now they can solder! The next thing will be much easier, as we evidenced when they converted the buck into boost.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:00:19 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 10:36:19 amIt’s not a “counterpoint” when it’s something I’ve addressed in detail already.But there’s a time and a place to teach each skill. You don’t teach ALL the skills at once. You teach one at a time, and at the right point in time. It’s why you start little kids with mixing salad dressing first before you teach them knife skills.Nobody — NOBODY — is saying soldering isn’t a critical skill to learn. But it’s orthogonal to circuit theory.Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 10:36:19 amNoneof that makes you a beginner at electronics!! Those are all specialities. But the fundamentals apply equally. Ohm’s law isn’t different in one area of electronics than another.Seriously, dude. You. Are. Not. A. Beginner. Pretending you are is just arrogant.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:09:30 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 10:54:31 amAs I told tggzzz, nobody is claiming otherwise. But you can’t teach all skills at the same time.Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 10:54:31 amTHT component availability is the ever-growing downside to breadboards.But again, nobody is saying to avoid soldering altogether.Being pro-breadboard does NOT mean being anti-soldering!!Why are you guys so absurdly resistant to the mere concept of quick, solderless assembly being useful as an educational tool for beginners? You don’t seem to understand that you can’t expect absolute novices to know how to solder competently from day one. Nor that circuit theory itself is something that has to be learned. Attempting to teach someone both at once is, frankly, stupid.

author: Siwastaja
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:18:37 am
content: Well, weactually experimentedgetting some total novices (when it comes to prototyping/construction techniques) to start with soldering-based prototyping/experimentation techniques from the get-go. I think it worked very well. The learning curve to usable results was approximately 30 minutes on average. Soldering wasn't difficult; we did not remember seeing much frustration at all. Quite the opposite; soldering task got a lot of positive feedback. Using an oscillosscope for the first time was an order of magnitude more difficult, though!Honestly, my recommendation would be to start with soldering, as early as possible, even if it "feels" like a too big of a step first. It likely isn't.If you still find use for solderless breadboards after that, fine, but I mostly fail to see the point.Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 11:09:30 amOf course not, that would be just ridiculous, no one's saying that.

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:23:47 am
content: Soldering on PCBs is like assembling scale models.Solderless breadboards are more like Legos.If you’re experimenting and not sure what you want to make ahead of time, Legos/breadboards are better.If you know before sitting down what you want to assemble, want a higher fidelity outcome, and can afford the lead time required to prepare for that, models/soldered PCBs are superior.There’s a place for both IMO.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:32:09 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 10:54:31 amAnd something optional is therefore useless and/or ineligible to be weighed as an option? Absurd.Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 10:54:31 amIt’s better for some situations. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together understands the concept of “situation”.Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 10:54:31 amI already listed some benefits of solderless breadboards. Please refer to them.Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 10:54:31 amHELLO?! Do you think professional chefs are born as professional chefs?!?No. Back here in reality, everyone starts as a novice and has to accumulate skill and experience. For a chef in training, it’s worthwhile to invest the time to learn professional knife skills. But they still have to learn them. And at the same time, they also have to learn other skills, like ingredient knowledge, heat control, and myriad other things, both theoretical and mechanical.This analogy only proves my point:you don’t teach all those skills at once. You have classes on one, classes on another, and so on. As skills accumulate, you begin combining those skills. (Before that, someone more skilled will do some of it for you. For example, if you’re teaching how to cook steaks, they’ll give the student a cut steak, not an entire side of beef, because they haven’t done the butchering class yet.)Like, seriously, do you guys not knowanythingabout pedagogy?!?Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 11:18:37 amI never said to not get people started with soldering early. Just not at the same time as teaching another skill. If you’re teaching theory, teach theory; if you’re teaching soldering, teach soldering. But you can’t teach both at once. Most people have limits to how much knowledge they can absorb in a given amount of time. So you focus on one set of knowledge you wish to impart at a given moment.Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 11:18:37 amYou have both insinuated this multiple times in this thread alone.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:35:34 am
content: Quote from: sokoloff on July 22, 2020, 11:23:47 amThank you, a voice of reason.I wonder how many famous architects got started with LEGO as kids, allowing their joy in architecture to blossom? How many engineers started with Mechano (or LEGO Technic)?These other two here would be there taking the LEGO from the kid, tossing it in the trash as they watch, and saying “here’s some concrete and rebar, have fun!”

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:46:28 am
content: Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 11:00:19 amNo, it is ahumblerecognition of my lack of knowledge of this topic. I don't think you realise how different RF microwave is to the other stuff I mentioned.For example, please define the relationships between signals at the entry/exit ports on these PCBs. The last one is especially subtleAssume there is a groundplane on the other side of the board. (Ohm's law doesn't even start to apply!)

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:52:05 am
content: Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 11:18:37 amThat's pretty much my experience too.I wouldn't start people soldering with my first soldering iron, though. It was literally a red-hot poker, and not useful for electronics

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:56:49 am
content: Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 11:32:09 amSaying "all crows are black birds" does not insinuate that "all black birds are crows".

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 12:00:33 pm
content: Quote from: sokoloff on July 22, 2020, 11:23:47 amFalse dichotomy; it isn't solderless breadboardorPCB. There are several very good and fast non-solderless(!) breadboard techniques.Apart from that, for experimentation Lego/breadboards are often better than PCBs.

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 01:12:20 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 09:35:10 amThanks. Agree with your previous comment about being a tool of paramount importance for testing/simulating circuits in real-life (aka learning) more than being a professional tool to achieve bench-top prototypes. The former being partly the reason I am looking forward getting a breadboard kit although I wound't say no to a platform where I can also sign-off circuit functionalities before sending out gerbers.Backing up a bit; I'd like to remind everyone that the frustration comes from being unable to find the right equipment/construction commercially despite a market being flooded with what appears to be "breadboard kits" sold by so called 'experts' - they are NOT, not even close. Talking about the incredibly high impedance, mechanical inconsistencies (contacts?), weak materials in their constructions and excessive low quality in general. Its as if our market players only wants to accommodate the blinky led hobbyist. Its just embarrassing that we do not have high-end (tested?) hardware available, if you ask me...Disclaimer: I am by no means an electrical "Professional"/engineer, I'm a licensed mechanical engineer and entrepreneur in his early years, taken onto EE since nearly 12 months now and still tooling-up. I am officially pissed for having wasted time looking for something that I was convinced existed but didn't, and therefore passing all of that frustration back to "you all"

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 01:31:31 pm
content: Quote from: Mecanix on July 22, 2020, 01:12:20 pmA reasonable reactionDon't worry about passing it back to us; we can deal with it. I regard this "frustration" as light relief

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 05:15:28 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 11:56:49 amOf course not. But you’ve both retorted about how important you think soldering is, which is the corollary of assuming Idon’tthink soldering is important.Either way, I think it’s the mark of a bad engineer to bullheadedly dismiss something just because it’s not relevant for you.Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 11:46:28 amAgain, you [series of expletives not suitable for delicate ears]: being new to a specific specialization does NOT make you a beginner at the field overall!!!And please, drop the “humble” BS: nothing about your posts here has been even distantly humble. Nothing but haughty proclamations.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 06:06:48 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 05:15:28 pmSigh. QED, I believe.QuoteThat depends on where you draw the lines between "fields".IMNSHO RF isverydifferent. There aremanyconcepts and specifications and tools that arebasicin RF but which have no place (or even counterpart) in, say, audio analogue or digital logic or software - and vice versa.Trivial examples off the top of my head: what are the spice models representing the copper traces in the pictures above? For that matter, what do those components even do? What do S21 and IP3 define? When and why would you us a harmonic balance simulator?QuoteOh, I am humble where I recognise areas where I know little - such as RF.Now, how does ohm's law relate to those components pictured? (Remember you wrote "But the fundamentals apply equally. Ohm’s law isn’t different in one area of electronics than another")

author: TheUnnamedNewbie
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 06:28:44 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 06:06:48 pmI mean, technically speaking, Ohm's law is related to Maxwell's equations. It still applies to the currents and voltages flowing through those components, it's just that you really need to look at an infinitesimal length of the track (and then integrate) to not have issues with the wavelength nature of the signals.But I'll let you two get on with your discussion

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 08:12:59 pm
content: Quote from: TheUnnamedNewbie on July 22, 2020, 06:28:44 pmOhms law is based on empirical observations, published in 1827. Maxwell's equations are theoretical constructs published 50 years later.So.... noBut Maxwell's equations arenecessaryto analyse those components. No lumped equation simplifications allowed

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 09:09:38 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 08:12:59 pm193 years later and they still sell Breadboard & Jumper Leads Kits that adds up nearly 1 bloody ohm on each conn/trace? wtf is going on, what went wrong guys? am I fully awake and reading this correct?!

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 09:25:33 pm
content: Quote from: Mecanix on July 22, 2020, 09:09:38 pmNot quite. The parasitic inductance of a 20cm lead is around 170nH. At a mere 10MHz that is 10j ohms, at 100MHz it is 100j ohms - in other words the inductance dwarfs a 1ohm resistance.

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 10:33:47 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:25:33 pmLet me see if I can rescue one of those abominable BB and jumpers out of yesterday's bin and plug back that LCR on one of those whatever/kit/plastic/thing. Let's see what sort of "x" (reactance?) this is pulling out. Might get better luck looking for Breadsword & Pumper wires I have a feeling. 20cm; was convinced the custom 5cm awg22 leads I crimped yesterday (to get me out of trouble) were already way too long...

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:00:10 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 05:15:28 pmI think you may be missing a cultural idiom or two in this thread, Tooki. tggzzz is not making a value judgement or sandbagging his own skill set. He is referring to a general intellectual stance in which an expert, mindful of how it felt when they first entered their field, intentionally tries to replicate the same sense of empowering naïveté in new areas.This attitude is explicitly promoted in some companies like Intel, where even the highest level people are expected to spend a lot of time outside their comfort zones. The idea is to look for places where your intellect and intuition can give you an advantage, but where your ego and reputation don't count for squat.In that sense, an average EE who dives into RF/microwave work is in the same position as an ME who wants to explore EE topics. Success in either case will boost your reputation, your ego, and maybe even your bank balance... at which point you look for the next thing to tackle as an amateur.Also, the term 'breadboarding' dates back to when circuits were constructed on literal breadboards. It can legitimately refer to any method of construction that uses any kind of substrate other than a printed circuit. Dead-bug construction on bare copper is 'breadboarding,' just like sticking parts into spring clips in a nylon block.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:07:48 pm
content: Quote from: Mecanix on July 22, 2020, 10:33:47 pmThe rule of thumb for a round wire is ~0.8nH/mm, often rounded up to 1nH/mm. Flat wires are lower, around 40%-50% the inductance of round wires.So 5cm->50nH, ish. Whether that is a problem in a digital circuit depends on the transition time and (for ground pins) the number of outputs changing simultaneously, plus the load, of course.

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:09:11 pm
content: Breadboards are way too flaky when part numbers go up. But I really like solderable breadboards, with supply rails, and expected vertical traces that match ordinary breadboard layout.Like these,https://www.adafruit.com/product/1609Except I use cheaper Chinese no brand stuff - with rails down the centre as well.They're flexible enough - if you make a mistake you just unsolder and resolder the part/s - the extra confidence from soldered joints is worth it. I try to make resuable modules, with lots of test points.SMD stuff works fine too, using 2.54" breakouts.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:14:56 pm
content: Quote from: julian1 on July 22, 2020, 11:09:11 pmYup. There are many commercial products in this area, each with relative advantages and disadvantages. Almost all are better than solderless breadboards.There are a couple shown at the end ofhttps://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/together with examples of other techniques for SMD and PTH components.

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 22, 2020, 11:29:52 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 11:07:48 pmTop class, and much appreciated Sir. I'll take your comment to the test and record its meaning in my notes. ty

author: joeqsmith
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 12:11:50 am
content: A few other threads on breadboards that may be useful:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/best-breadboard/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/who-made-the-high-quality-breadboard/

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 12:45:16 am
content: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/voltage-drop-at-breadboard/

author: Mecanix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 02:34:25 am
content: Lets do this another way:List your minimum requirements for a"Ultimate EE Bench-top Prototyping Breadboard"(shielding, isolated/connected rows/columns or not, sizes, common footprints/pads availability, ideal pitch, contact type, plating choices, min/max electrical tol, etc etc). And I'll share this around in our other ME community and see if someone is up for that task & interested in your market. We have all the high-speed precision tooling, injection molding, micro sheet-metals, both linear & non-linear sim validation, mat properties & cert suppliers db, access to all surface treatments and plating, essentially all the processes and skills to pull off something like this pretty easily.Thank you for your time! (just trying to be pro-active and help in between rants, can't promise anything but I'll give it a shot for you fine folks)

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 02:56:06 am
content: Quote from: KE5FX on July 22, 2020, 11:00:10 pmCultural idiom?How is he not sandbagging his skills? Claiming to be an electronics beginner when he’s advanced onto highly specialized, advanced subfields? That’s absolutely ridiculous.I know where the term breadboarding came from. But it’s come to mean solderless breadboard use, since every other construction methodhas its own name.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 23, 2020, 06:52:53 am
content: Quote from: tooki on July 23, 2020, 02:56:06 amCan I suggest you read more slowly before posting.If you go back and look you will see that you claimed I had forgotten what it was like to be a beginner. I countered that by stating, correctly, that isnotthe case because I continually find new fields in which Iama beginner. I gave RF as one example; I could give many others.I'm still mildly curious as to whether your experience (e.g. with Ohm's law) leads you to be able to answer the questions about those RF components and techniquesPersonally I expect that your experience counts for nothing in that field.QuoteAh yes, the "Humpty Dumpty" position, from a well known book that many children (used to) read: Through the Looking Glass."I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'""But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected."When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.""The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things.""The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."