Why you should think twice before buying a Rohde & Schwarz gear - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: ricard2k
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 11:24:06 am
content: Clarification:The brand in question is Rohde & Schwarz (often abbreviated as R&S), a reputable German manufacturer of high-end test equipment. This post addresses why their gear may not suit typical EEVblog readers, despite their professional acclaim.I'm really happy with the gear, an oscilloscope, the most I love of it is how is easily usable with python scripts via VISA over ethernet. It is full of protocols triggers and I love it.But when investing in high-end test equipment, you expect not only top-notch performance but also comprehensive support that ensures your device remains reliable over time. Unfortunately, my experience with Rohde & Schwarz (R&S) oscilloscopes reveals a glaring issue: the absolute lack of customer service, especially for private customers.The Problem: Locked Behind Corporate WallsRohde & Schwarz markets their products with the promise of precision and innovation. However, once you've made the purchase, you quickly realize that accessing even the most basic support materials is impossible. Simple requests for firmware updates, manuals, or technical documents are met with bureaucratic roadblocks.Consider this email I received after attempting to access the "Product Downloads" section:Email #1:----------------We regret to inform you that your request to access "Product Downloads" could not be granted because your profile does not meet the necessary requirements.If you have any questions, please feel free to reach out to Customer Support for assistance.We apologize for the inconvenience and thank you for your interest.Best regards, Rohde & Schwarz----------------This vague rejection left me puzzled. As a legitimate customer, why wouldn't I meet the "necessary requirements" to download firmware for a device I own? Seeking clarification, I contacted their support team again. Here’s their follow-up:Email #2:----------------Due to our business processes, access to the download area is limited to B2B customers only. For private customers, we are working with distributors who will provide firmware and other product collateral in a convenient way. This may still take a bit of time, and we would like to ask for your patience.In case of an urgent request, please contact your channel partner where you bought the instrument.If you are a business partner, please share your business contacts with us.Best regards,----------------Why This Is UnacceptableBasic Support Shouldn't Be a Luxury:Accessing firmware updates and technical documents is fundamental for any equipment owner. These resources are essential for troubleshooting, ensuring compatibility, and maintaining the security of the device.No Clear Path for Private Customers:R&S essentially tells private customers to "wait" without offering a timeline or concrete solution. Relying on distributors, who may not have the technical depth or immediate access to necessary files, is a poor substitute for direct support.Archaic Business Practices:In an era where most companies embrace transparency and self-service portals, R&S clings to outdated, restrictive processes that prioritize corporate bureaucracy over customer satisfaction.The Bottom LineWhile Rohde & Schwarz oscilloscopes may deliver on performance, their post-sale support leaves much to be desired. For professionals and enthusiasts alike, the inability to access essential updates and documentation is not just an inconvenience—it's a dealbreaker.If you're considering an oscilloscope, think carefully about the long-term implications of your purchase. A product is only as good as the support behind it, and in this case, R&S falls disappointingly short.What’s your take? Have you buy R&S gear personally? Share your experiences in the comments!What do you think @Dave

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 11:31:39 am
content: QuoteHow long ago did you buy it?If I bought any equipment, "high end" or not, then the manufacturer withholding updates ("fixes for known problems") would be grounds for me to get a refund.In my country: appliances have a "reasonable expected lifetime" (which can be longer than the warranty). If they are not providing updates & manuals after this period then theymighthave grounds to say that this is an extra service you have to pay for.But still... it would cost them almost zero to put it up in a folder on a HTTP server somewhere. Any business & legal arguments are shallow compared to just how easy it would be for them to fix this.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 11:33:31 am
content: See:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/anyone-noticed-that-rohde-schwarz-is-blocking-firmware-informations-updates/

author: ricard2k
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 11:34:29 am
content: Quote from: Whales on February 03, 2025, 11:31:39 amI bought it around 2020, one offer of the full of triggers bundles, did it for pandemic entreatment. Only the other day I realized has a software from 2018 and probably there ase some upgrade... but I can't ever see the last software version available.Your conclusion is correct.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 12:14:13 pm
content: Apparently Ireland has consumer rights:https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer/consumer-laws/your-consumer-rights/(I assume there is much more to that, just as there is to exercising consumer rights in the USA.)One might argue that you were sold a device with outdated firmware (assuming you got it from a legitimate dealer/distributor) and/or it was sold with non-disclosed and non-discoverable conditions that rendered it defective compared to identical devices sold B2B. (B2B are likely sold at even greater discounts.)We have "small claims" courts, and they can be very effective in fighting legitimate businesses. Filing fees vary but be sure to demand costs "and other damages to be proved at trial," if rules allow that. Generally in the US, you can represent yourself, rules of evidence are lax, discovery is limited, and businesses must be represented by licensed attorneys.

author: ricard2k
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 12:49:14 pm
content: Quote from: jpanhalt on February 03, 2025, 12:14:13 pmYou're right but is a Catch22.You buy the component from a dealer. And legally the only customer-commerce relation is between you and the dealer.But your'e not buying through the dealer because you want to buy through them, you are buying a brand because you have confidence in the quality and results you can get with this brand. R&S was a brand I recognized, as used Hameg tube oscilloscopes in college, and I made a good image of it seeing lots of videos from Dave and Shahriar.Finally, the brand doesn't honor this expectations. The only I can do is to inform the people about the false expectations I had and how they didn't honor them.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 01:31:24 pm
content: In the US, it's a question of "agency." That can be complicated:https://www.tktrial.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/FTD-2011-Freeman.pdfOne question I ask in telephone negotiations (e.g., for health insurance) is whether the person is a 3rd party or agent/employee for the company. Those calls get recorded.Presumably, the dealer of R&S is a sole source. At a minimum, you can address the dealer. But, if the purchase incentives came from R&S, that might be considered agency for that single purchase. At the very least, you might approach the dealer who does not want a dissatisfied customer and definitely wants to stay our of small claims court or the like that may exist in Ireland.I ran into a similar issue with DigiKey and an electronics manufacturer in Europe. DK would sell me the part, but the manufacturer wouldn't give me access to the complete datasheet/applications. I signed an NDA and got it.I'm on your side. Some American companies act the same way, and it's beyond frustrating. There's a lot of political talk about "right to repair" in the US, but so far very little effective legislation. Bad mouthing may help others from making the same mistake, but that doesn't solve the issue for you.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 01:40:32 pm
content: As I wrote before this obfustigated situation highly likely stems from export restrictions where R&S (and other brands) need to keep tight control over what gets distributed to whom. Blame Poetin, Trump and Xi for that mess.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 01:54:25 pm
content: Just a general comment not specific to R&S (a lot has already been discussed on another thread so I'll try not to repeat), if one rewinds back to the original purchase, I think it's totally acceptable if a business only wants to deal with other businesses, and not to sell to consumers.I wouldn't want to sell to consumers either, that's a choice, but for some businesses with specialist products it will be the difference between being a viable business and no longer being able to perform any commerce.Now getting on to access to docs and firmware.. this leads to a second point:As mentioned by others too, there may be very strong obvious and non-obvious reasons, some for your and all our benefit ultimately (and some reasons may now be effectively outside of some manufacturers' ability to remove), to restrict access.Based on that, it would be strange to assume there isn't any good legal or contractual reason why the manufacturer has restricted access to business customers only. It is not rational to automatically assume it's a sales or marketing 'choice' (I'm not saying you specifically are assuming that; it's a general point).However, I get that you're trying to make it about the brand expectation versus corporate bureaucracy, but I doubt that is actually the case.As for possible things to do, you may have terms specific to your original purchase agreement (i.e. contract) which would be with the firm you bought equipment from (and then it's up to them to choose to enforce any contract they have with the manufacturer to obtain the files, i.e. it's like a chain), but it would for sure be worth relying on consumer rights too if it was a consumer purchase, since usually that's easier, and goes far beyond and may even give rise to some rights directly with the manufacturer.But even more pragmatic might be to simply create a business and ask if the manufacturer can tie your equipment serial numbers to that (I dont know if they would or would not). Granted there's also the overhead (more onerous in some countries) and cost of setting up and maintaining the business. In some countries it is trivially simple, often doesn't require a lawyer or much more than the cost of a meal. I understand why some people would not want this overhead however, but I'm trying to suggest something practical versus what you might ideally want to happen.

author: ricard2k
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 02:41:25 pm
content: Quote from: shabaz on February 03, 2025, 01:54:25 pm1.- I perfect understand the difference in costs between having a complete customer care service and the total absence of it.2.- I also understand the difference in costs between to have a complicated self service system that collects all data from your customers behavior as R&S has for its B2B, and having a open and simple one. Basically they tried to innovate but they was anchored to archaic business practices.Quote from: shabaz on February 03, 2025, 01:54:25 pmI completely disagree for two reasons:1.- If your'e speaking about intellectual property, security by obscurity is not security at all. In the better case is a way to make the management to think that they're protected and release their concerns about security. Two examples: For a bad actor is as easy as make a purchase in your scheme and have access to all the contents you think are secured. For a laboratory rat is not more complicate to desolder the memory and read it contents that open the firmware file.2.- If your'e speaking about personal data collection and restrictive legislations, you don't need to collect any personal data to offer a simple self-service to your clients. Could be that you want, but it is not a requirement.Quote from: shabaz on February 03, 2025, 01:54:25 pmAgain completely disagree.1.- Is a total misunderstanding of how a market works. All customer is a potential prescriber for your brand. And in niche markets like this, you don't know if the garage electronics aficionado is a novel laureate that tomorrow could be prescriber for the next sell to his university, or if the electronic hobbyist client is a prescriber for the Payments Card Industry where you want to sell your cryptography solutions.2.- It is a recipe for a future disaster. The brand is leaving all this space to other actors. This actors can start selling basic equipment, learn, and jump to most advanced equipment. And when your new competitor finally reach the level of your most advanced products, your competitor have a broad base of people used to their brand. (All readers in this forum can enumerate at least two brands growing in this way)Quote from: shabaz on February 03, 2025, 01:54:25 pmAs you say, it depends on the legal and taxing framework of each country.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 03:20:58 pm
content: I won't be able to respond to it all, but regarding the first couple of points mentioned, I don't mean the (relatively) small cost of customer care, I mean complete business viability. Governments deliberately did not apply consumer rights to these types of business contracts, so consumers benefit from being able to return consumer items, even if the reason is just a slight scratch on the packaging. That obviously cannot work for large industrial equipment, for example, which may well have some scratches even on the visible metalwork.Another problematic area is that many business customers will rightly refuse to accept a product previously supplied to another customer who returned it because who knows what malware has been inserted. Granted, one could argue consumers should refuse it, too, but the impact could destroy the entire org. Some businesses will want to know precisely where their purchased equipment originated from, how it was delivered, and by who. Another example: some customers would refuse to return the scratched equipment if consumer laws applied, and they would expect the manufacturer to take the loss by scrapping it, to prevent any contents in memory from going back to the manufacturer and then onwards to who-knows-where. These might sound like extremes, but for the major TE manufacturers (and many other businesses), it's a fair bet this is a reality. Nothing to do with customer care cost-reducing or archaic business practices.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 03:30:38 pm
content: Quote from: Whales on February 03, 2025, 11:31:39 amThis doesn't fit the R&S case at all. They already have the download support in place, and in the past it was public. They spent money to block access, not to provide it.Quote from: nctnico on February 03, 2025, 01:40:32 pmThen why don't they just say so? And why wouldn't the same restrictions apply to the distributors that are supposedly going to provide the same access that formerly existed?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 03:41:33 pm
content: Quote from: Whales on February 03, 2025, 11:31:39 amAre you sure the term appliance applies to professional equipment in your country? Its doesn't in most countries. There is also the issue of the domain of use. In most countries the appliance regulations only apply to the appliance being using is a domestic context. E.G., use a kettle at home, and you get full warranty rights. Use it in the pantry of an office, where 50 people are making tea and coffee all day with it, and you don't get those rights.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 03:47:41 pm
content: People have gotten used to test equipment suppliers like Siglent having a web site where you can download updates. This is a recent innovation for test equipment. Through most of test equipment history, and still for most suppliers today, if you want anything you didn't get on day one you need to pay per update, or take out a service contract that includes updates. There are whole departments in most companies working on ways to monetise keeping their customer's existing equipment functional. Much of it is good honest repairs, and adding new features. Some of it descends into blood sucking, seeking money for fixing what was wrong on day one. When your job depends on maximising revenue, its hard not to descend into such slimy thinking.

author: ricard2k
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 03:51:27 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 03, 2025, 03:41:33 pmIn most other countries, like most Europeans including Germany it depends of the juridic status of the buyer. If the buyer is a company, no regulations about customer rights is applied and must refer to specific commercial agreements. But if the buyer is a person, no commercial agreement can restrict the customer rights regulations.

author: ricard2k
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 03:58:54 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 03, 2025, 03:47:41 pmAnd this is exactly why I refer to “Archaic business practices”. They must understand that they are drowning their future in a trench in the deep of the ocean.Could be another case of how a misunderstanding of a challenging environment will destroy other German industry.Other big companies like Keysight are able to manage this, could be that they don’t really want to leave its model of resellers and agents, but they’re open to explore new channels and have a more open vision.Also you have the example of Teledyne-LeCroy. If you can’t fight them, ally with them.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:14:09 pm
content: Quote from: ricard2k on February 03, 2025, 03:51:27 pmIts slightly more complex. A lot of products say something like "for domestic use only" somewhere in the blurb. If the employees get together and buy some appliances for the office pantry, they are personal purchases, but the standard warranties don't apply.Are you trying to argue that R&S are not fulfilling their legal responsibilities, or that they just have dumb outdated practices. I would agree with the latter. For the former things get complicated. You may be entitled to bug fixes that correct things that made the product unfit for purpose on day one. That's about all. Even in 2025 a huge number of consumer products give you no more than minor bug fixes without paying more. Even things like TVs, which get a lot of updates from their makers to deal with security and commercial issues, don't get any of the improvements that occur year by year to their software platform, even if you are prepared to pay.

author: jpanhalt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:27:35 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on February 03, 2025, 01:40:32 pmIs that another of your jokes in poor taste?

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:29:58 pm
content: WTF politics has to always come in damn get the h... out of here

author: ricard2k
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:32:07 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 03, 2025, 04:14:09 pmNo, no, no…Quote from: coppice on February 03, 2025, 04:14:09 pmThat’s my point.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 04:36:50 pm
content: DLC oscilloscope

author: timeandfrequency
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 05:01:47 pm
content: R&S manufactures top notch TE with staggering performance and specification.However, it is true that the support for non professional users is plainly sub par and probably infringes some consumer protection laws (at least in Europe). And I even don't speak about Right to Repair or sustainability.I had the utmost hassle to ask for calibration of my µwave powermeter because it's empty battery led to the loss of all cal parameters.The french R&S subisdary refused to deal with it.It required the fuil clout of a friend of mine working at a TE servicer to send my device to the R&S headquaters in Munich, Germany.Because of an empty battery....Another colleague also used high end SA and VNA from R&S he bought brand new in the early 2000, as owner of own firm.Once retired, he took these TE to his home lab.A few years ago, he asked for service and hence contacted R&S in Germany. Answer : no support, no solution.Dead end.So what's the deal : R&S sells really cute TE.But as private owner, even during the support period time, if any serious problem shows up, consider your TE as bricked because the manufacturer only focuses on B2B deals.All other owners are just ditched, even if they agree to pay for repair.I sometimes hear that for big TE orders (hunderds of devices), serveral buyers now have an in deep look about servicing, ease of repair, parts + schematics long term availability and general robustness.They take their decision on these criterias. Not price, not features or any kind of other fuss.

author: coromonadalix
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 06:58:33 pm
content: keysight, R&S who's nextsimply put don't buy anything new or mostly the used ones .....

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 07:39:16 pm
content: how about pay per trigger

author: MathWizard
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 11:29:46 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 03, 2025, 03:47:41 pmThis might also be the golden age for us hobbyists, unlocking some of these scopes/etc. I suppose we can't count on that forever.I'm surprised to hear these big companies can make it hard to get firmware updates. Maybe they are worried about hackers ? I'm guessing they could afford the internet bill.

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 11:43:56 pm
content: Quote from: shabaz on February 03, 2025, 01:54:25 pmI'm pretty sure several posters in the other linked thread about this tried requesting via a legitimate business and still got denied, though without a clear reason why. There was some conjecture that the business being registered with D&B was also necessary, though still not sufficient.

author: abeyer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 03, 2025, 11:49:23 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on February 03, 2025, 04:14:09 pmIt's certainly complicated when you start asking legal questions, given how much these laws and court attitudes tend to vary from one place to another. But I wouldn't assume R&S was necessarily in the clear here, either. They might not have had an obligation to provide fixes for free... but given that those fixes existed and they did provide access at the time of purchase and then later retracted it, it seems to me like that might be something that could be argued as an issue.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 12:56:43 am
content: Quote from: abeyer on February 03, 2025, 11:43:56 pmHi,That registration is free (i.e. provided a limited company is formed using the rules of the country/jurisdiction it is formed in, it can get a free D&B registration).I'm actually surprised OP was able to purchase as consumer. Whoever sold it as a consumer item did him a disservice in this case. Which is rare because usually one wants consumer rights of course.It might accidentally in reality be a business purchase, simply because some distributors do not sell to consumers. For instance, if I purchase anything from Newark/Farnell as an example distributor, the purchase falls under normal contract law, not consumer legislation (it's in their terms).To me the biggest unknown is whether, if a private consumer purchaser sold their asset to their firm, if that would be sufficient for the manufacturer to provide the file access. Gut instinct suggests it may work, because to me it doesn't seem plausible the restriction is sales/marketing related, and is more likely a know-your-customer requirement, as people have suggested.Also, for anyone in this boat (I guess there will not be many that have managed to purchase a new R&S 'scope as a consumer), it shouldn't need to be said, please don't rely on legal or financial advice from a stranger on the Internet, because if one does then sell to their company to make it a business asset, it is up to them to be comfortable with that and be aware of any repercussions (such as ongoing legal, financial, reporting overheads all the time it's an asset).

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 02:31:32 am
content: Quote from: shabaz on February 06, 2025, 12:56:43 amWhen R&S released the RTB2000, they promoted it to hobbyists (here and elsewhere). That's why it's so irritating that they have now withdrawn support.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 03:03:08 am
content: That range has not had a firmware update since Dec 2021, but I imagine there could still be a need occasionally for that last firmware, or the latest docs, or even repair requests.The only practical thing I can think of in that situation, is to try to make it a corporate asset, to satisfy the requirement that it's a business purchase (as mentioned, I'm not sure that will work, but worth asking the manufacturer if I was in that situation).For sure it's very frustrating for some existing non-business customers (I hope those customers would already have that last firmware release and copies of the docs, but it's not ideal of course).

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 04:16:54 am
content: if they wanted to be world class they would not just ask the 'private customers' making them $1000's for patience. You are talking things like beginner consultants and private agreements that can be wrapped up in some pretty big money. And also employees getting their own stuff to get to the bottom of workplace issues, because they decided that someone not buying them a particular piece of gear because of internal bureaucracy / cheap management is something they can overcome by empowering themselves with better tools. I think its a big lack of equityVery narrow minded to think that all their private customers are some kind of retired HAM fucking around in a shed. There can't be serious situations that occur differently then they do in my overly regulated workplace.... no... its not possible that some people have serious initiatives.... surely it MUST be under the direct control of a big corporate structure like ours, its the only way things could possibly work!!!111Its kind of like assuming all the crime is conducted by the mafia and there are no important loose associates that did not take the vow of honor related to the cash flow, even just looking at a single medium+ business lol

author: Cyclotron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 04:18:40 am
content: I don't know why folks would even consider it to be related to export restrictions. Companies have one goal, money. If you want to a reason for the things a company does, you can track it back to that goal. Technologies that have export restrictions in various place have long had ways to login and download if you aren't in a restricted place.Companies that want to move to a pure B2B model are intending to reduce cost for direct support, to enable their channel partners to take some of that burden for the money they make off the product, and those same partners want sticky relationships with the customer. The reason for each of those is money.Elimination of the secondary market is also a benefit to the company. Hobbiest do not supply a demand sufficient to offset the cost of support. Large percentages of hobbiest do not even buy directly so the best thing for the company that produced that product originally is for it to head to the land fill.If customers ever start being concerned enough. It may get fixed. Right to repair and so on are real things but folks have to get behind them and push.Companies are constantly pushing against them and will never stop.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 05:56:34 am
content: Quote from: shabaz on February 06, 2025, 03:03:08 amHow would you know that, when you can't access the websiteIn fact, it was posted here at EEVblog that they just did a rebranding andreleasedpromised new firmware, that includes new features.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 06:23:10 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on February 06, 2025, 04:16:54 amThey don't care if it's a one-man band making just $100 revenue. It's not about having a big corporate structure, they simply want to only provide doc/firmware access to businesses for KYC reasons. It's not about how large the org is.QuoteSometimes yes, but not always; there can be other reasons other than money. Some reasons were mentioned earlier in the thread. If that wasn't the case, then governments would not restrict consumer legislation benefits to just consumers. Governments restrict it because otherwise some commerce would become impractical.It's also the case that you can't (at least in most jurisdictions) force people to sell to consumers. Keysight won't sell to consumers either. Nor will some distributors.In any case, I don't see the relevance; none of this has got anything to do with restricting documentation and firmware, because if money was the reason, then KYC checks alone would be insufficient.QuoteI have access (I didn't for a while). I posted in a different thread how that was done (by raising a support case, because the automated request didn't work for weeks; (my R&S instruments are corporate assets).I didn't see a later firmware release than 2021, but I could be mistaken (I'm not familiar with some of their product ranges). I can check again; does the rebrand have a different model name? I only checked RTB2000.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 03:21:03 pm
content: Quote from: shabaz on February 06, 2025, 06:23:10 amThe new name is "RTB 2":https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/about/news-press/all-news/rohde-schwarz-presents-the-r-s-rtb-2-a-new-entry-level-oscilloscope-with-class-leading-specifications-press-release-detailpage_229356-1529856.htmlNew firmware was promised, but a post in the RTB2000 thread says it hasn't been posted yet. Since you have support access, maybe you can ask R&S when it's coming.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/msg5711619/#msg5711619

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 03:45:39 pm
content: Quote from: shabaz on February 06, 2025, 06:23:10 amthere could be way more money in it for one man then $100, that is a joke if you can negotiate . college student wont be using this scopetheir gonna do loose contract type work for a pizza party lol? maybe thats normal in india. and there is repair work too, in addition to consulting. emergency repair from a trusted expert on the weekend before you start the fires and call a service after 19 meetings

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 06, 2025, 04:47:12 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on February 06, 2025, 03:21:03 pmI don't know how I missed that. I recall when I first saw the RTB2000 at Embedded World; it was highly desirable back then, so it's nice to see a far lower-cost version (although I had hoped to see an MXO 2; maybe that would cost a bit more, though). I've not read the details yet. I hope someone eventually reviews it.However, there are no firmware downloads available for it yet; maybe only the launch firmware has been released so far (i.e., the default base firmware installed in the 'scope). I see no user manual either, which, from my perspective, is very surprising; in most organizations, that's supposed to be part of the checklist for when the product is released.All I can see downloadable are the product brochure and spec sheet, and some other bits and pieces of collateral, which are also available when logged out.For the RTB2000, the latest firmware I can see is release 2.4 (i.e., they have not placed the RTB2 firmware in the RTB2000 space).I have created a ticket requesting dates for the RTB2 user manual and firmware.

author: Cyclotron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 02:46:44 am
content: Quote from: shabaz on February 06, 2025, 06:23:10 amWow, its never sometimes, it is always. In most of the world publicly traded companies must comply with their fiducial responsibilities. I know most folks aren't educated in such things. The only time a company can, on any significant basis do something that isn't for the profit of its shareholders is when the company is privately held. It is exceedingly rare then. I am a hobbiest at electronics at best but I work in the industry between OEMs and channel partners world wide. I know why the companies do what they do because I work to enable their goals. @shabaz, if you have any examples of "Sometimes" please bring them forward. I've only seen sometimes when their was a lawsuit that followed for lack of fiducial responsibility.You may live in a country or area where such laws don't apply but I haven't encountered them and I've been doing this for a long time internationally. I am not privy to the contracts and agreements between R&S and its channel partners but I've seen enough of them to know what they likely say. I also know that the channel is pushing very hard in the last few years to take over things that make customers "sticky". You may not know this but there's a huge amount of physiological research in this area. One of the primary areas that makes a customer "sticky" is where they get help.If I get help from the OEM I have no obligation to remain sticky with the VAR that may have sold me the product. VARs want this to change and so they are doing professional services, technical support, downloads, knowledge bases and so on and their lawyers are spending large amounts of time negotiating the OEMS do less for their customers. The OEMs have no choice. They can remain in channel which most of them want or they can go it alone. Have you noticed a lot of companies going it alone?I'll say it outright. R&S made the decision to restrict access due to money. They almost certainly negotiated with partners for them to do these "services" things so they could gain the "sticky" relationships. As was reported to the initial reporter of this issue. R&S told them the partners would eventually service their needs for knowledge, downloads, and support. Even if some of the restrictions are legal due to various reasons for country to country, they are doing it to avoid fines which goes right back to uh, "money".The only way to change this is laws in region that require the OEM to support their product direclty like the "Right to Repair" movement in the US. I can provide you all the legal links you want for many countries if you like. I'd like to the see the references that companies only do things because of money "sometimes".

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 03:26:42 am
content: Quote from: Cyclotron on February 07, 2025, 02:46:44 amMy comment was about the need for the B2B model for sales for certain orgs. As mentioned, it's not all that relevant to the documents/firmware access issue in question, but I'm still willing to discuss it:I covered some very realistic examples in reply #10 that would apply to at least some organizations providing typical industrial or manufacturing types of modules, components, or equipment.If that's not clear, then let's take it to the extreme with a more abstract example. It would be ridiculous for a firm to purchase a nuclear reactor and then rely on consumer rights to return it and demand a full refund because the instrument front panel had a scratch on it. I don't know how to make it clearer. It's self-evident that there can be extremely good reasons for consumer rights not to apply to certain purchases.QuoteThat's implausible. If it were true, then how come R&S will provide access to small firms, provided they are registered businesses? There's zero evidence they are examining revenue or profit figures or reading your business plan or investor's deck.I'd put good money on it (if I were a gambling man, which I'm not) that they would be more than willing to provide documentation/firmware access even if your business had just $10 revenue - provided their checks are passed, which appear to be KYC related.QuoteThat's the same as saying organizations try to do things that are, uh, "legal" and hence avoid fines or worse. I can't find anything to extract from that comment that's incompatible with anything I've stated so far.

author: Cyclotron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 05:17:29 am
content: Quote from: shabaz on February 06, 2025, 06:23:10 amA consumer buys a nuclear reactor and they are not protected by law? I don't get your point here. What is extreme about buying an nuclear reactor that makes it different from buying a bag of uranium or marbles?Calling it B2B does not change anything about the paradigm of producer and consumer. Producers make a decision about how they bring their goods to market and they have choices. There are lots of examples where the law requires the producer to sell to consumers. But more importantly there's written and implied contract law too. I don't know how this changes or informs an argument that companies only make decisions sometimes due to money. This, was your argument that I responded to. Your examples and statements counter your own statement though so I'm not sure what's going on.In my profession I've watched OEMs continually add more restrictions to access to knowledge and company resources. They are doing it for reasons I've stated.QuoteIf you were able to talk to an long term professional in the field we are talking about and they told you it's not only plausible but its happening everywhere, why would you argue with them? The elimination of small company access is happening at lots of OEMs. They are being told to work through the channel with their VAR. It may not have been done at this company but my experience and their statements lead me to believe it will. It is the current market trend no matter your wish to believe it.Why would a company read my business plan or investor's deck? What are you talking about? I'm sure they have their own business plans and if you feel they aren't complying with them or evaluating them with all of their decisions then you're simply wrong. A company that just goes about its day bumbling through the world and not doing things in a reasonable and methodical way isn't long to remain in business.We do have a lack of desire to gamble in common in this thread. Though, I will take money when I know its an easy win.QuoteIt is incompatible with your statement that companies do things "Sometimes" because of money. My point remains, if its compliance, the wish to enhance the VAR/Partner income, or intentions to cut off owners of equipment that the company would prefer entered the landfill its the same. Companies are and will continue to enact less than consumer friendly polices unless those consumers take some sort of action.I mentioned, because its more likely to be relevant to those on this board, the "Right to Repair" movements because that's more oriented towards individuals. But its not entirely. R2R is why, in the US, an independent repair shop can access the same materials the OEM provides to their partners and VARs (the car dealerships).Did you see how Apple changed their polices on who could access their knowledge, firmware, and tools? No, because they shut it all down 20 some years ago and only recently started allowing it again due to pressure and lawsuits. How many wiring schematics have you seen that aren't for 20 year old gear or more?See a lot of those coming with your R&S gear do you? Companies have been on a long road to cutting this stuff off. I am sorry if I'm the bearer of bad news. Its because of control and that is because of money in its simplest form.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 05:53:32 am
content: That's a lot of unnecessary content to read.There are plenty of good examples of organizations that do bad things "just for the money", you don't have to look far. I happen to think you're off the mark regarding the reason behind docs/firmware access in this case however.Then, when you didn't have anything of further value (most of your comments were irrelevant in the first place and had nothing to do with a good reason why doc/firmware access was restricted to businesses), you went on about how orgs doing things for legal reasons and avoiding fines is just for the uh "money".I've given a very good reason why your suggestion that R&S are restricting docs/firmware access just for themoneydemonstrably does not hold water, because (and I hate repeating myself)R&S do not care if a business makes any significant revenue to provide access; there's zero evidence that they will look at your financials before providing document/firmware access.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 06:04:38 am
content: Quote from: shabaz on February 07, 2025, 05:53:32 amYou know, I think it's just a fluke that they gave you access. They have not responded to my email or the case I opened to even ask if I have a business, let alone how much revenue it has.

author: Cyclotron
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 06:14:56 am
content: Quote from: shabaz on February 07, 2025, 05:53:32 amI replied in kind with a wall of text as I was presented with in an effort to determine if there was a real argument for companies only "sometimes" doing this for money.I believe it has become obvious that there isn't any intention to discuss in good faith. I suspect an unreasonable self identity association with R&S and so it is taken as a personal attack. Bolding as if to yell statements petulantly is all I need to end my engagement.I stand with the OP with his warning and my experience as a rep in the oem to channel industry.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 06:51:40 am
content: Quote from: Cyclotron on February 07, 2025, 06:14:56 amWhoopee, glad you proudly "stand with the OP" as if none of the rest of us do. We all want him to get his access. I notice you have not actually tried to help him find a solution so far, but you just came here to share your "experience as a rep" and yet still haven't found anything of immediate relevance that could possibly help him.QuoteAll I can help with is explaining what happened for me, in case there's anything here that you can spot was different in your case. Really there's not much I did, but it's worth checking, did you make the request using your business e-mail address, or Gmail/Hotmail etc? (granted, you should still get a response if you use Hotmail/Gmail, but I'm simply trying to spot what might be different in your case versus what happened to me):(1) Use corporate e-mail address, not Gmail/Hotmail etc to register on the R&S site(2) On a restricted access page, I requested access (several times)(3) After about a month, I had heard nothing, and I didn't have access(4) Raised a request explaining that I had waited a month, and that I wished for it to be expedited.(5) After a week or two, I received this resolution; slightly more wordy, but condensed to: "validation complete, GLORIS account activated, download area available, sorry for any inconvenience caused".It may be key that the registration be done using the business details that you wish them to perform their checks against (i.e., if you already had registered with them using your Hotmail/Gmail (like I had), then create a second account).

author: chilternview
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 07, 2025, 01:33:39 pm
content: Quote from: edavid on February 07, 2025, 06:04:38 amIt's not a fluke. I have R&S access and I'm a one man company (and not even VAT registered). Being a registered company was enough for them.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 15, 2025, 11:55:44 pm
content: Regarding the question earlier about RTB2 firmware, I asked "When will a user manual be published? And when is the firmware going to be available?" and got an answer last week, forgot to add it here earlier:Quote from: R&S Support Center

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 16, 2025, 11:20:51 pm
content: Quote from: shabaz on February 15, 2025, 11:55:44 pmSorry if I'm belaboring the point, but I hope you realized this is a BS response:1. The RTB2 release is supposed to have new features over the last RTB2000 release, so obviously these are not documented in the old RTB2000 manual that is available (to the privileged few). When will the documentation of the new features be available?2. Yes, we know there is only the initial RTB2 FW release, but when and where can it be downloaded, either to reinstall in an RTB2, or to upgrade an RTB2000?

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2025, 12:07:42 am
content: Quote from: edavid on February 16, 2025, 11:20:51 pmHi,No, it's not an instrument I know anything about. I have no idea if it's a successor with new features, or a drop-in replacement (e.g. cost-reduced, or brought about because of component obsolescence) so I could not tell.As mentioned earlier, I don't believe any new product ought to be able to be released without certain documentation in place, including the user manual (and at least in the places I've worked, that would be a barrier to actually releasing a product; although if an item is a drop-in replacement perhaps some manufacturers handle it differently, it's not something I'm aware of).Is the older RTB2000 series supposed to be able to run the firmware from the RTB2 series, or is that an assumption?In any case, now that it's a bit clearer what questions you were looking to be answered, I can ask them again, it's no trouble at all.

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2025, 05:35:10 am
content: Quote from: shabaz on February 17, 2025, 12:07:42 amWe don't know of any hardware differences, and it was stated that there would be unified firmware for both series.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2025, 05:41:36 am
content: I've interpreted and submitted it as follows (may take a week for the response):Quote from: my request

author: eTobey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2025, 07:23:51 am
content: Quote from: edavid on February 06, 2025, 03:21:03 pm"Promised"? Seems like there is some political background to it.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2025, 08:05:52 am
content: Quote from: shabaz on February 15, 2025, 11:55:44 pmNo need to jump through any registration hoops to download this user manual from the link below. I would have attached a copy of the manual here except that at 14MB it exceeds the max attachment file size.R&S®RTB 2 Oscilloscope User Manual, 1333161102, Version 13This documentation describes the following R&S®RTB 2 models with firmware version 03.000 and higher:● R&S®RTB22 (1333.1005K02)● R&S®RTB24 (1333.1005K04)The documentation is also valid for R&S®RTB2000 models with firmware update to version 03.000 and higher.1333.1611.02 | Version 13 | R&S®RTB 2https://static.eleshop.nl/mage/media/downloads/RTB2_UserManual_en_01.pdf

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2025, 11:54:14 am
content: edavid had these questions:QuoteI didn't understand the reason, but now I do. Regarding point (1), this misled me a bit, but now it's clear the new features (if any) must be in that release 3 user manual which you've linked to. That manual is for release 3 firmware, and will apply to both RTB2000 and RTB2. Whether there are new features in release 3 I have no idea, and I've seen no promise of new features (not saying there wasn't a promise, I just don't want to repeat information I have not verified without a qualification next to it). If there are no new features in release 3 then there is a possibility that release merely achieves parity on both platforms. Anyway, hopefully R&S can answer it.Regarding point (2): This is currently not downloadable for RTB2000, nor RTB2, conformed by R&S. It is installed by default in the RTB2.Hopefully the new questions that were asked to R&S will answer when that firmware will be downloadable for RTB2000. I would have worded the request differently if I had known the full accurate request and reason but it will do for now.

author: Hydron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2025, 04:38:43 am
content: There are a few improvements in FW 3.0 vs 2.4 (IIRC the most impactful one is a couple extra measurement slots).

author: BeBuLamar
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2025, 12:33:31 pm
content: I didn't read the whole thread just mainly he first post. I think R&S simple doesn't want to deal wih individuals and I think they sold very few instruments to individuals to make it significant. I think HP/Aglilen/Keysight in a way did similar things.

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2025, 02:34:13 pm
content: Quote from: ricard2k on February 03, 2025, 03:58:54 pmI bet they send firmware updates over fax

author: Refrigerator
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2025, 02:45:48 pm
content: Quote from: coromonadalix on February 03, 2025, 04:29:58 pmPotential export of high-end test equipment, which could be used for weapons development is a valid concern, when the export of even the most simple of electronics is tightly controlled to keep them from being repurposed for military reasons.Especially since high-end test equipment is exactly what you need not only for the development, but also for the reverse engineering of equipment.It makes sense to me why RnS would only interact with business partners, because businesses are much easier to hold accountable and don't just disappear like a person can.

author: CaptainBucko
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2025, 11:06:43 pm
content: I have been involved in my professional life in many manufacturer <-> retailer agreements. It does get complicated.It kind of goes like this:1.) Manufacturer structures their business to retail via 3rd party.2.) Legal agreements cut and terms of engagement written into contract.3.) Discount set for retailer to buy from manufacturer. Discount includes margin so retailer can support sales.4.) Retailer makes sales, puts money in the bank and does not uphold their support agreements as they are different to measure and enforce by manufacturer.The obvious and logical solution is that the manufacturer steps in, and just solves the problem. In reality, its complicated - for example, the manufacture would have insurance, but maybe that insurance does not cover dealing with the general public. Hence, the friendly and helpful support teams are prevented by legal to help you. This shit happens in real life!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2025, 11:17:56 pm
content: Quote from: CaptainBucko on February 19, 2025, 11:06:43 pmTo make their retailers and their customers lives more difficult ?Retailers are then forced to host equipment resources as support for their sales rather than the manufacturer host those resources for free and unhindered access for all.Don't make sense from where I sit.

author: shabaz
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 24, 2025, 09:07:00 pm
content: Regarding the RTB2 side-topic; I got a reply back from R&S yesterday.In brief (i.e., in my words), they said the current RTB2 firmware has no feature difference compared with the latest RTB2000 release. The RTB2 however enables a couple of options by default (Generator, and History+Segmented Memory), because they are standard on that instrument.They are still preparing the RTB2 manual.Regarding downloading the RTB2 software to be reinstalled on an RTB2, they said that's not possible on that first base software. If there are issues with that base software that are unsolved by hitting the default (preset) button, then the instrument needs a service.My (completely unsubstantiated) initial thought is that RTB2 is simply either a cost-reduced or slightly modified (due to component obsolescence) alternative to RTB2000, as a stop-gap to continue to fulfill demand, and maybe something like MXO 2 might be the real successor one day.If they were to do that, I have some ideas for it, but I'm sure they have better experts on it (if they are indeed developing such a 'scope).I've asked them to close this support request since I don't have any more questions to ask them about RTB2 and since it's fairly clear now that anyone can raise a request, provided they are able to create an account using registered business details.

author: eTobey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 28, 2025, 12:50:16 pm
content: Since KYC was mentioned here, the following video might be of interest:

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 06:11:44 am
content: followed by syc (stalk) and then fycLol, its kind of disturbing even when the word "your" is used with a business. Not sure if I am yours. Kinda feel alot more safe when they say "the" instead. Some how it feels a bit personal and its kinda hard to shrug it off with how all these firms are behaving (it used to be meaningless)Whenever 'your' is used, it kinda means you have some kind a say/rights related to it. Maybe don't say that to me unless your in talking about family or actual possessed objectsWith clients its a bit different, I guess you have to sign a agreement. But customers.. thats like definitely not any way yours, especially on the internet, when someone is basically reading your digital magazine (their not physically on the premises) from like 3000 miles away through like 25 intermediaries and translators...

author: eTobey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 01:14:55 pm
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on March 01, 2025, 06:11:44 amI believe, i am right, when i say the following:Its a good thing, to knowyourcustomer, as it is good to knowyourEquipment. But i guess its also good thing, thatoneknowsthewords, he is using. "Your" is just meaning a relationship, which is not "owning" but rather "beeing" (acustomer ofthecompany).There isacustomer,thecustomer,yourcustomer,onecustomer,anothercustomer,the f'edcustomer and so forth.Language is a tool. Keep it sharp.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 01, 2025, 06:03:18 pm
content: in the context its being used lately its starting to feel a little creepyI keep thinking of psycho ex girlfriend saying 'your' (mine) .....(it always seems to relate to a perceived 'debt' or responsibility of some sort)and then they go and say something about treating customers like family(meaning guilt trip them into doing stuff and receive fronted money?)I wanna like pepper spray the website and call it a creep

author: eTobey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 02, 2025, 07:03:39 am
content: Quote from: coppercone2 on March 01, 2025, 06:03:18 pmJust because you're paranoid don't mean they're not after you.Indeed, many things that are done today, gives one some odd feelings. Like having to give your phone number, to just receive a parcel. Something that has worked even before telephones existed...And why does Youtube want my phone number, when i just would like to add a thumbnail picture to my videos?

author: nicnac117
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 15, 2025, 01:22:09 pm
content: its a stupid move all round . They have to produce the manuals and updates for customers , business or otherwise , so they are just complicating their own life by trying to restrict access . Pointless bureaucracy . All the info will get out anyway and those of us who like a challenge its a red rag to a bull syndrome. It will also affect their sales as most people in the real world are put of by this kind of nonsense ................. a bit like wokism LOL

author: developerR
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 15, 2025, 03:18:07 pm
content: I bought a FPC COM1 spectrum analyser from Farnell. I used to get firmware updates but now I get the message your profile doesn't meet...Shocking I will approach Farnell to see if they can help

author: eleguy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 19, 2025, 11:05:27 am
content: Funnily enough our company already once got the access to the updates and all but it seems to be now taken away. So... back to the square one.

author: eTobey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 22, 2025, 08:23:22 am
content: Quote from: eleguy on March 19, 2025, 11:05:27 amI wouldnt be suprised, if there is some AI in the background, or (meta)data that is used, that would determine that there are some possible traces to russia.Sounds crazy? Yes, the world today is just crazy.Could that be the case?Relevant info: (Multiple videos)https://www.youtube.com/@robbraxmantech