How to verify the amplitude of a basic 100MHz module - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: enut11
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 12:43:04 am
content: I want to verify the high frequency amplitude response of my Tek 2445 CRO to 1% or better, if possible.I have a 100MHz module specified as 13dBm (no tolerance) which I understand is 2.8Vpp. The module is powered from a regulated 5v supply.The 2445 shows 2.34Vpp on the 50 ohm input which looks to be a bit low for a 150MHz instrument so I want to be able to verify the output of the 100MHz module before I draw any conclusions.I do not have an RF power meter but I do have a Nano VNA and an accurate DMM.Question: is there a simple way to verify the 100MHz module amplitude using basic equipment and/or perhaps a DIY circuit?enut11

author: moffy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 01:12:23 am
content: Found this:https://techlib.com/files/detect.pdfwhile looking through this:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/idea-for-super-peak-detector/For the 'detect.pdf' circuit if you used a dual schottky diode it might be possible to use one as a temperature compensated reference for the offset.

author: enut11
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 02:49:43 am
content: Hi @edavidThe module outputs a sine wave.

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 06:19:58 am
content: You can use some chinese module with logarithmic-detector. They usually have about 60-90 dB usable dynamic range. But you're needs some reference source to calibrate it.Something like this one:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007116984716.htmlOr this one:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007221165402.htmlIf you want more professional equipment, then look for RF voltmeter.

author: enut11
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 06:28:08 am
content: Thanks. What type of 'reference source' do you have in mind?

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 06:38:27 am
content: Quote from: enut11 on September 17, 2024, 06:28:08 amIt can be some oscillator with stable and known amplitude. For example you can use some TCXO powered from REF voltage source and ask someone who own calibrated RF voltmeter to measure it, then you can use it as reference source.Another but less reliable and less precise way is to measure some low frequency oscillator (about 10 MHz) with 200-300 MHz bandwidth oscilloscope, it should give you result within about 5-10% error. Then use it to calibrate logarithmic detector module from such 10 MHz reference and then use logarithmic detector module to measure 100 MHz signal.The logarithmic detector allows you to use low frequency (about 5-10 MHz) source for calibration and then measure much higher frequency.If you have oscilloscope with >= 400 MHz bandwidth, then you can measure 100 MHz signal amplitude directly with oscilloscope. But oscilloscope measurement is not so precise, the error will be about 5-10% or even worse if frequency is more than 1/3 oscilloscope bandwidth.Another option is to usetinySA Ultra, it can measure signal level, show signal spectrum and can be used as reference source, but its cost about 100 USD.If you decide to use tinySA Ultra or logarithmic-detector, then also buy20 dB attenuatorand connect it through attenuator, because 2.34Vpp (which is +11.4 dBm at 50Ω) is pretty high level. With attenuator you will need to add attenuator value to measured signal power in dBm.So, it depends on your budget.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 05:08:03 pm
content: Quote from: enut11 on September 17, 2024, 12:43:04 amGaussian response for a 150 MHz oscilloscope should be down to about 84% at 100 MHz, or 2.32 volts peak-to-peak, so your measurement is consistent with likely errors.As far as accurately measuring the output of your 100 MHz source, a sampling oscilloscope or sampling voltmeter would be my first choice. Analog Devices makes some logarithmic RF detectors which should be accurate. A compensated peak detector using microwave diodes should also work well.

author: Postal2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2024, 05:51:38 pm
content: vacuum temperature converter.http://lampes-et-tubes.info/sp/sp059.php?l=d

author: enut11
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 04:23:50 am
content: Thanks everyone. Some interesting replies, especially the last one!The logarithmic detector solution proposed by @radiolistener does not appear to meet the 1% error requirement. However, the TinySA Ultra sounds like a wonderful tool to be explored at a later date.@David Hess points out that my 2445 may already be in spec but it might be fun to verify that in some way.As a first approximation for a viable solution I am going to build the circuit based on an article proposed by @moffy in Reply #1, dectect.pdf.The response is shown as linear for RF signals greater than about 200mV.enut11

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 05:23:14 am
content: see Tektronix serv man 2445, on testing, spec and repair of input mod.Read 1980s Tektronox Circuits Concepts bookOscilloscope vertical amplifiersj

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 06:33:50 am
content: Quote from: enut11 on September 18, 2024, 04:23:50 am1% is about 0.08 dB. With log detectors and good multi-point calibration I'm get about 0.001 dB resolution (which is incredible result from my point of view) with very flat response within 20 kHz - 200 MHz range and with pretty stable results. But I don't have so precise standards to test it's absolute precision. I'm using a little bit more complicated frontend than Chinese modules.I think you will get higher error due to cable and connectors, which is hard to connect in that way to get two exact measurements for two different connections. It very sensitive to cable bending and connector contact.

author: jonpaul
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 06:48:24 am
content: Oscilloscopes freq resp and flatness are not the best assessment.Most TEK 2445..2465..2467/A/B exceed the specified freq reesp.We use transient response as a better guage of CAL.Leo Bodnar 30..40 pS pulser>>MiniCkts HAT-20 20 dB atten>>Scope 50 Ohm input.Tweak V amp etc for best transient resp as per CAL proceedure in scope serv manual.For amplitude the standard TEK SG503, SG504, PG506, PG506A SG5010 CAL gen is fine.Enjoy,Jon

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 07:20:57 am
content: Here is my result taken with 1 meter Chinese RG58 cable with BNC connectors with AD8310, frontend schematic also attached. By the way touching BNC connectors may add offset up to 2 dBSo it needs to carefully check connection before measurements.The picture shows frequency sweep over 1 kHz - 90 MHz range. Amplitude is calibrated and shown in dBm value. Power calibration was made at two points: -10 dBm and -40 dBm. The input signal is -50 dBm (0.001 Vpk).

author: enut11
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 07:07:40 pm
content: Hi @radiolistener. Plot is obviously flat but I am at a loss as to how this can help me cal my CRO. I am a babe-in-the-woods wrt to RF circuitry.enut11

author: enut11
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2024, 07:17:05 pm
content: Quote from: jonpaul on September 18, 2024, 05:23:14 amHi @jonpaulThanks for the tip about the Tektronix Concepts articles. This will be a very worthwhile learning exercise for me.I have built my own pulse generator based on a 74AC14 chip but this does not help with amplitude verification.The Tek modules you specified for amplitude are too expensive to to buy from Australia hence my DIY approach.enut11

author: radiolistener
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2024, 08:30:19 am
content: Quote from: enut11 on September 18, 2024, 07:07:40 pmlog detector allows to compare 100 MHz amplitude with much lower frequency signal, like 1-10 MHz which is much easier to measure with oscilloscope or even with some DMM.But if you want very precise result, its better to find someone who has RF voltmeter with enough precision.Since you will use coax cable to connect your module, the coax cable should be properly terminated, the terminator impedance should be equal to cable impedance. If RF voltmeter has 50 Ω you need to use 50 Ω cable and connect it directly, with no terminators.Proper termination is very important, since you need very high precision.And I suggest you to measure environment temperature during this measurement, because your module output amplitude may vary depends on temperature.