Vintage CD player repair : Philips CDC 486    6 disc changer. - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / repair

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 09:28:10 pm
content: Hi all,I just got this old CD player shipped to me for repair, just unboxed it an hour ago....It's from my dad. It must be from 1990 or close to that. At least that's when he bought it. I was 10+ years old at the time IIRC, nostalgia, a piece of my life... I vividly remember playing my first audio CD's on this thing, I absolutely want to fix this thing. I really hope it can be fixed !Trouble is that I am not at all into audio stuff in general, no particular knowledge in this domain, and at any rate I have never ever had to fix or even open a CD player before. This is my very first CD player repair... so basically I don't know what I am doing !!!... hence why I thought I would post the repair on here, so that hopefully more knowledgeable and experienced people can help me out here and there... and keep me from doing fatal mistakes perhaps...As the title says, it's made by Philips, model number CDC486. It has a cassette that can hold 6 discs, stacked on top of one another, each in its own little tray/holder. There is a hinge on which the trays pivot.My 75 year old dad had a go at it himself, downloaded the service manual.. but he failed to fix it. Now asking me if I could rescue the thing... if I fail, he will as usual say I am worthless and a disappointment ! That's how he is... so I really hope I can manage to fix it, to prove him wrong ! ....The service manual, is over 20MB so unfortunately I can't post it here. He sent it to me on an SD card along with the player...Maybe if I can find it online I could put a link to it here.Anyway, here is what he told me as far as symptoms go : " Son, the player fails to spin up the disc, the motor just won't spin. I checked the motor itself, it's not faulty. ".As for me, I spent only 5 minutes on the thing, to try and witness the symptoms... and turns out I disagree with him from the get go ! From what I can see, sure the disc does not spin, but to me it seems "normal" : the player acts as if it doesn't even detect that there is a disc present ! So logically, it won't even try to spin the disc... CQFD.Here is what I did exactly :- Removed the top cover of the player, so I can see the internals working as I am testing it.- Loaded a CD in the first slot of the changer. 5 remaining slots are empty.- Powered up the player.Then just after power up I recorded a close-up video of the internals doing their thing. It's only 20 seconds long don't worry...I apologize for the background music polluting the video, my computer playing music, forgot to mute it before recording the clipFrom what I can see :- The cassette gets "cranked" so as to line up the first tray with the read head assembly.- Extracts the tray from the cassette and loads it.- The reading head giggles a few times quickly then stops.- Player remains inactive for a couple seconds, nothing happens.- Then it puts the disc back into the cassette- Cranks the cassette to select the next slot (which is empty), opens up the corresponding tray- Again giggles the head- Again freezes for a couple seconds- Again puts the tray back into the cartridgeThat cycle gets repeated 6 times until all slots have been checked and the player gives up.So basically, the player behaves EXACTLY the same whether or not there is a CD present in a given slot. Disc or not, it giggles the head, waits for a couple seconds, then switches to the next slot.So that's why I am thinking the problem is simply that the player fails to detect the presence of the disc, hence logically does not spin it, and goes on to check the other slots in the cartridge, hoping to find a disc somewhere.So... I guess I will try to find all I can in the service manual about the detection mechanism... how it's implemented from a mechanical and electrical point of view, where to find it exactly, how to get to it / dismantle the drive without damaging anything, etc....Any practical advise much appreciated of course !I meant to post a couple piccies but that failed somehow, the forum greeted me with an error message saying, I quote :" Your attachment has failed security checks and cannot be uploaded. Please consult the forum administrator. "Security checks ?! How dangerous can a CD player be ?How DARE I want to post pictures of a 30 year old broken CD player, silly me !!!

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 12, 2020, 09:32:24 pm
content: Looks like the first of my two pics DID make it ! It's only the second pic that triggers the forum and won't make it no matter what... go figure.

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 01:35:53 am
content: Hello Vince.Youmustfix this, can't let the old man be right, besides it's a historical swing arm pickup... I am a bit of a fan of the Philips CDM 1-4, 9 stuff.What you're seeing is failure to read the disk index that can be caused by a number of things, but the basic flow is to load a disc, bring pickup to center of disc, spin disc, turn on laser, try to focus on disc, try to find track, seek TOC.So any failure in laser output, insufficient optical return, servo loop or electromechanical faults can give that result.Starting points:Is disk engaged correctly and camped to the spindle?Is lens clean? (Beware of smoke particles)Is there laser output?Is the spindle motor spinning freely? (Beware of bad brush-collector contacts or 1/3 shorted winding)Is the arm spinning freely? (This is a common trap, the grease on the pivot balls can go hard, the magnet can also attract small magnetic objects that can jam.)Is the focus mechanism working? (I've seen some with broken spring hinges.)Other common problems are bad solders and bad capacitors.I've also seen a couple of hard to spot broken flex cables on the pickup assembly and bad TEA8808T servo IC's.

author: Miti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 02:36:14 am
content: To add to the shakalnokturn's list, check if the disk is at the correct distance from the lens. I've seen CD and DVD players that were dropped and the spindle moved on the motor shaft.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 04:30:57 am
content: Do CD drives bother to check for a disk before spinning up? I thought they always tried to spin, then perhaps gave up if they didn't detect an inertial mass (ie too little current draw).If the motor is not spinning then trace back from there. See if there is a dedicated motor controller, or just a few transistors, etc.I once had a DVD player that used a resistor between the motor & the motor controller. It had blown open (possibly due to a jammed/misinserted disc? or mechanical fatigue, because it was the biggest SMD discrete around?) and replacing it kept the unit running for several more years.

author: paschulke2
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 07:12:56 am
content: First of all: Are you sure you loaded the discs in the correct orientation? A lock at your photo tells me that the orientation has to be "label down", which is unusual. A look at the video in slow motion makes me think that maybe you inserted the CDs with the normal orientation (label up).The typical sequence after loading a disc is:(1) Check the position of the loader or tray (with a switch).(2) If ok, turn on laser and try to focus.(3) If focus is ok, spin the disc and try to read the TOC.(4) Either stop and display the TOC or start to play the disc.In your case (1) is ok (because it moves the laser head and tries to focus). Maybe (2) fails because of the possibly wrong orientation of the discs.If (2) stills fails with correctly inserted discs, you will have to check whether the laser emits light and if it can focus properly.

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 05:00:39 pm
content: Wow, thanks a lot everyone of you for your help, much appreciated !Shakalnokturn I sure vivdly remembered that you had a soft spot for these old Philips CD players, hence was hoping you would offer your help, thanks for doing so then !So, to sum it up :1) I was wrong then, no simple "CD presence optical switch", so no easy fix, bummer !2) It can be a million different things I have mostly no clue or experience with, great !As far as smoke/dirt on the lens : non smoking dad, and clean house...As far as mechanical damage... the player has spent the last 30 years in the same comfy living room, never had "accidents", a peaceful life.I noted that you don't all agree on one point : is the disc supposed to spin before, or after focusing is attempted ? I guess that means it depends on the particular drive/product...As far as putting the disc the wrong way around.... OOPS, yes I did !Indeed I put it label up, but indeed it's supposed to be label down, the head being atop of the disk. With the disc the correct way around, the CD player behaves 100% the same, nothing has changed.Lens cleanliness ? It facing down, I can't even see it !Disc clamping : can't see much of what's happening in there... once the player has drawn a tray from the cassette, the tray hides the bottom of the mechanism of course, so I can't see if anything underneath the tray is pushing upward to clamp the disc to the motor...Laser working ? Here again, with the head facing downward, I can't see squatHow easy is the laser spot to distinguish ? Is it a large blurry blob that reflect off of the surface of the disc, and it is absolutely impossible no to see it ? Or is it a tiny 0.1mm spot ? I can't see anything (anything obvious I mean) reflecting on the surface of the disc. I also had a look when it's trying to read an empty tray : the interior is all all black plastic parts, so I turned all the lights of in the room to make it dark, and stuck my nose in there, thinking I would be able to distinguish a tiny laser spot easily on a black plastic part.... but I didn't see anything.OK. Before I can do any troubleshooting I need to print all the schematics and block diagrams in A3 format at work so they are about readable. Will do that tomorrow. Until then I can only do thought experiments !One question : this 2 second delay we witness, after the head has finished moving, and before it switches to the next disc... what does it correspond to ? What is the drive (trying to) doing during that time ? At first I thought it might correspond to the time during which the disc is supposed to spin, and during which teh drive is trying to read the disc. It it fails after 2 seconds of trying, then it gives up. However if that were the case then why would it do it even for trays where there is no disc, and therefore where we are sure it can't possibly focus.. if it can't focus why would it wait 2 seconds trying to spin the disc (or whatever), instead of just skipping immediately to the next disc ? Seems odd / inefficient to me...That would make sens however if the focusing is attempted AFTER the disc is spinning... in which case during these 2 seconds, maybe it is trying to spin the disc but it just doesn't work. Hence investigating the spindle motor might still be useful....So, questions and more questions !Tomorrow once I get the schematics printed, I could start with :1) Check all numerous power supply rails, first things first eh ! You never know... mayube the laser is indeed not working since I can't see anything, and maybe it's powered by a dedicated power rail, hence only the laser would stop working but it would not keep the rest of the circuitry from working.2) Check the circuitry that drives the laser diode. According to the schematic it's quite simple. The decoder IC drives the LED via a humble NPN transistor (a BC338) fed by +10Volts. It also involves a 33uF electrolytic cap.... hum...Could also test the laser diode itself with a basic diode test...That 10V rail is not even listed as coming out of the 8 rails that the power supply board produces... so that's one more rail ! Will have to figure out how and where it is generated...3) Check the turntable motor drive circuitry... it's made of a couple op-amps, from an NJM 4560 chip, whatever that is... then the final drive is a bi-polar push-pull stage, powered at the top by....oh, guess what... that same 10V rail that powers the Laser LED !And... I see that the focus motor is also powered by that rail ! Ahhhh.... could it be just a faulty rail then ! That would be great !... oh no, spoke too soon ! On another schematic page I see that the motors that handle the cassette and trays, also use that rail... and those motors work just fine. Oh well...Still worth checking all rails of course, and local power supplies. You can't rule out local problems... just because the 10V rail works doesn't mean it gets to each and every place as it should... doggy flat flex, doggy local electrolytic cap, what have you....I will try to attach the schematic but not easy. Even single sheets are too large to satisfy the requirements of the forum. If I compress a page enough to get below 500KB, then it's a bit hard to read :-/I think best compromise would be to crop the schematic to retain the most relevant bit. This way picture will be smaller so I would be able to retain a high resolution / legibility without exceeding the 500KB file size limit..... just a bit time consuming that's all !

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 05:20:23 pm
content: OK here goes the overall block diagram for the player. Cropped it a little bit to removed the margins/blank space all around it, converted it to black and white, and compressed in JPEG as much as necessary to get the file down to 500KB... it's still about readable. The interesting stuff is at the top left of the diagram : the laser/head and spindle motor related stuff.

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 05:36:48 pm
content: Oh... just realized that the file size limit is not 500KB but a huge 4MB ?!So I could have just attached the PDF sheet directly instead of trying to convert it to picture and spend time reworking it...So here is the original PDF sheet, for the schematic page discussed above. 850KB... I normally would not dare attaching such a huge file so I apologize for those on dial-up or dodgy DSL or like me with a defective 4G modem...

author: paschulke2
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 05:37:14 pm
content: Quote from: Vince on December 13, 2020, 05:00:39 pm… the service mode of the CD player and the flow chart in the service manual (page 4-1). If I read the service manual correctly, the service mode is activated by pressing "Time/Track", "Next" and "Previous" while turning on the CD player.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 07:34:18 pm
content: Quote from: Vince on December 12, 2020, 09:28:10 pmThat's pretty harsh, particularly if he's had a good go at screwing it up himself!I too am a fan of the old Philips swing arm mechanisms they're pretty solid with no gears on the tracking mechanism to get gummed up - I don't know about the changer mechanism though, I've never touched one of those.From the video, the head is trying to find focus on the disc and failing, on a single disc model, it would just stop and display Err but presumably it does something different on a changer. Hopefully your dad hasn't messed with the offset and laser current pots although the lasers are reasonably robust and the adjustment are in the manual. Don't touch them yet though.One possible thing that could make you look like a genius... that 33uF electrolytic capacitor, 2521 in laser drive circuit isnotoriousfor failing in all of these early players. It's a Philips axial one which either dries out or becomes leaky, leading to current instability. Replacing this with any decent low leakage electrolytic could well just bring it back to life. with no adjustment needed.I treat that as a go-to replacement before looking any further.P.S. If all else fails, tell him he should have been a better Father!

author: Audiorepair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 07:40:44 pm
content: I don't have a huge amount of experience fixing CD's but I have repaired quite a few.First of all, you HAVE to clean the lens. Non smoking house, doesn't matter. This is an old machine, it WILL have some kind of coating on the lens reducing effectiveness at best.Second, the usual case is the CD tries to focus the lens on the CD. If it detects a disc it will spin the motor and try and read the TOC.If if doesn't spin the disk, either it doesn't see the disk or (rarely) the spin motor system is not working.Third, on almost every occasion I have had a CD player for repair, if it doesn't see the disk, then either the laser needs cleaning, or the laser just doesn't work any more, and there is usually a cheap generic replacement you can try/fit.(Though by the looks of things, the laser assembly in your machine is not generic)Fourth, you would have to be crazy to try and troubleshoot the electronics without actually cleaning the lens first.

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 09:27:09 pm
content: Thanks again for the info, I really need each every bit of advise you have to offer, as I am soooo clueless.My dad is now thaaat horrible... I ha ve learnt to deal with him... he is the way he is that's all, as we all are. No point in trying to change him... I know he loves me deep down, so that's alright. He certainly would not have massacred the player. He is very meticulous. Him failing to fix it is just due to not being an electronic guy that's all. He is an excellent electrician, his core skill set, and learned the basics of electronics for work as he had too, and was interested anyway. However he doesn't have a lab nor tinkers with electronics. So he did what he could with his limited knowledge and tools, ie very little.Made some progress :I removed the bottom cover of the player, a pretty thick and heavy sheet of metal.This gave marvelous access to the bottom side of the mechanism : I can now see the spindle arm, which works just fine and is very strong thanks to a healthy spring forcing it to clamp the disk. So I don't think that's an issue.I cleaned the lens of the laser. Didn't know how to do it so checked Google a bit, found lots of Youtube videos. Just rubbing a cotton swab flooded with pure alcohol, ie IPA for us electron people. At first I didn't see any contamination on the lens.. with my naked eye, but cleaned it anyway of course, just in case.Good news : it DID make a difference. No it still won't spin / detect the disc, however now the player reacts DIFFERENTLY with the tray that contains a CD, compared to the empty trays.Now, instead of moving the head and then stopping for 2 seconds, here is what it does :For one second, it moves the head but almost... imperceptibly so ! Unless you pay extremely close attention, you won't even notice it... but it does do extremely tiny movements, I am sure of that. Then I can see the focus servo move up and down for a second or two, it's trying, it trying. Then it stops moving and and I hear a single and very faint "bip" sound. Not from any speaker of course, just something somewhere that somehow make a beeping kind of sounds.. no idea what it could be.Then nothing happens, it stays there sitting for..... MUCH longer than before, like I don't know, didn't yime it.... 10 seconds maybe ? Significantly longer than the 2 seconds it did before.So.... cleaning the lens definitely made the thing behave differently. As if it works well enough for the player to actually TRY for 10 seconds to read something, before giving up.I still can't see any hint of the laser spitting out any light. Having access to the underside of the unit does not help since the tray gets in the way. So either it's near invisible, or the laser just doesn't fire up. So it's high on my list of things to check. Thanks for the tip on its 33uF cap, will check that for sure. Maybe it's indeed causing very low light emission, hence I can't see anything with my naked eyes. However I guess it must be spitting out SOME light... otherwise cleaning the lens would not have made the slightest of difference, logically...So the laser circuitry is high on my suspect list now...Reading your messages, I finally realized what you all meant with that "swing arm" expression... that refers to the way the head is moved I think.... obvious for those in the know, not for me the clueless. Yeah that's right, now I come to think of it, most CD players I have ever seen (as a user I mean), moved the head in a straight line using rails and worm screw or something...Hmm, so these old Philips were the only players to use this mechanism to move the head ? Guess they patented it so nobody else could use that. So that makes my childhood CD player even more special then ?! Hmm... I am loving it a bit more now, definitely want to fix this piece :-)Hidden Service menu : tried the magic ket combination and it worked ! However the LCD display is supposed to show " US 1 ". If not, flow chart implies it's faulty. In my case I see " US 5 " not "US 1", so not good I guess....I noticed while playing with the keys on the front panel, that although it is not documented, pressing the "forward" search key shoots the read head all the way to outside of the disc, while pressing "backward" brings it back to the center the disc. Or the other way around can't remember. Also noticed that while those keys are being depressed, for a plit second only then, the display changes for " US 0 ". Whatever that means.Those flow charts are rather cryptic I find...From what I understand they tell you to use the remote control to shoot IR light into the 4 photo diodes on the head, to stimulate them and take measurements...My dad forgot to ship me the remote control... I guess any remote would do, but I do'nt have any, no TV here...Anyway, thanks to all your advice and some tinkering, I am already much less clueless than I was just 24hours ago..This drives looks less and less complex and mysterious, as I spend time looking at it up close. Things are starting to make some sense....Laser subsystem is now definitely my main suspect, will investigate in this direction...

author: Miti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 09:38:08 pm
content: All CD players that I've seen so far use red laser. You should clearly see red light coming out of the lens.

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 09:43:58 pm
content: OK thanks... then in this case the laser most definitely is not working as it should... either the LED itself is toast, or the circuitry driving it is kaput, starting with that 33uF electrolytic cap as prime suspect... will work on that tomorrow. Going to bed for now, almost 11PM and alarm clock set to 5AM tomorrow morning...

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 10:19:15 pm
content: 23:15... last minute update before going to bed... I just could not help but have another go at trying to spot the laser light from underneath the player, repairing stuff is a disease, I need to seek help I think...At first glance it looked like even from underneath you could see shit, but looking more closely, there is a tiny spot where you can just about see the lens, if you stick your nose on it and look at tit pretty much dead on.. which is not advisable of course, so I looked at it at a very slight angle. Doing so, and while the player of course is working on an empty tray, I CAN see the laser ! Red indeed. So it's not completely dead as I assumed. However it's so faint that you really to work at it to notice it.You have to look into the lens and you can just about notice a tinnnnnnny red spot in there, so tiny that the diameter of the lens, in comparison, looks like the milky way galaxy !Is it supposed to be so incredibly minuscule that you can barely see it ?Doing that, I can now gather more information : the laser is fired up only during the second where the head giggles. During the 2 second pause that follows, the laser is turned off. So, this 2 second pause definitely is not supposed to see the spindle motor turning... so no idea what the player is doing during that time.

author: Audiorepair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 13, 2020, 10:54:59 pm
content: Normally the red laser is easily visible at quite an angle, particularly if you blow some smoke or something down there.Yours appears to be almost non existant.The player will be thinking:Turn on the laser and jiggle the lens up and down and see if you can focus on the disc.2 seconds later, no focus attained.OK, so there is not a disc in there.Next.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 09:44:36 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on December 13, 2020, 07:34:18 pmConfirmed. Any of those blue axial ones from Philips should be considered dead and should be replaced.(I had a larger number of NOS of these, I checked all of them, and a very low single digit percentage was still in spec, about 90% or so were less than half the capacity. The all went into the bin...)

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 10:32:28 am
content: Err, just a safety point guys - the Laser in a CD player is INFRARED, not Red. Yes you can usually see a dull Red glow if on axis, but that's the eye's response to the IR energy. The IR energy ismuchhigher and can cause eye damage if you aren't careful - with IR, you don't get the benefit of the blink response to protect your retinas!The Manual (and usually on the plastic inside too) has specific Laser exposure warnings about minimum viewing distance, not getting on axis etc.DVD players are the ones that use Red Lasers and Blueray, Blue ones.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 10:50:04 am
content: Yes, IR. You can check with the camera of your smartphone. Watch at an angle, don't use your eyes

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 11:11:53 am
content: Quote from: Haenk on December 14, 2020, 10:50:04 amiPhones have an IR filter on the main lens but not the selfie lens. At least that's the case with older ones. Check first whether is shows the IR LED on a remote.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 11:13:33 am
content: Quote from: Vince on December 13, 2020, 10:19:15 pmThat's true. Depending on who it is you could end up getting your face slapped.

author: Miti
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 11:53:31 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on December 14, 2020, 10:32:28 amI’ll be honest, I repaired many CD and DVD players long time ago, but I didn’t know that the laser is infrared. The main fix, particularly for DVD players was to replace and adjust the current (IIRC) in the laser module. There was a service procedure to do that. The laser in CD players is divergent enough that, if you don’t stare directly at it from a short distance, and I don’t know how and why you would do that, it is not dangerous. Proof is, my eyes are still fine ... well, for my age.

author: Haenk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 01:18:40 pm
content: Adjusting (raising) the laser current is usually a short-term fix - one might squeeze out a couple of months until they completely burn out. Not recommended as a long-term fix...One might have to fiddle with tracking and focus, this requires a service manual and the proper service CD is highly suggested.The smartphone cameras have IR filters installed, but those are nowhere near 100% filter efficiency, so the laser should be clearly visible.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 02:29:41 pm
content: Definitely replace that 33uF first though,beforetouching the laser current adjustment - it has a direct influence on the stability of the current control loop.It's rare to find one of those swing arm Phillips Lasers defective (maybe the odd CDM-0), unless they have been over-currented or suffered static damage - you need to put a short across the end of the flexi-print (paperclip) if you remove it. I don't know if it is being single beam rather than the later 3-beam, or because they were strictly designed around / in tandem with the Red Book spec, but they will generally read CDs that are too degraded for other pickups. They still don't pass the famous jam test though!

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 04:21:54 pm
content: I second Gyro on the lasers used, I've seen bad ones on CDM 0 or CDM 1, near to no failiures on CDM 2 or CDM 4.Start with stated capacitor, see if it behaves any better.I'd give the spindle motor a test just in case, I've seen so many flaky ones...My method is to tie the motor to the component tester on a Hameg scope, turn the motor very slowly by hand and check that all 3 windings are showing similar curves, finish check on a lab PSU.Worn motors will sometimes start only if helped, or even start by themselves or not depending on the position they stopped in.

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 06:28:59 pm
content: Yep will replace that 33uF disgrace of a cap no worries. Just don't have one handy. Thousands of electrolytics in stock but... salvaged 30 years ago when I was a kid. So they must be 50 year old or so I guess... I guess I should just scrap them all, but I can resort to doing that, as I spent so many hours back in the day patiently desoldering them. They are part of my memories so I want to keep them !As far as brand new caps, will see what I have left over from past orders. Might have a few 10uF ones, 3 of them in parallel should do it. Else I will just go to my local shop tomorow after work, and get one. Downside is that it would be crap ones of course, no Nichicon at your small local shop of course. But for diagnostics purposes it should do it I guess.As far as IR goes, no iPhone here, not exactly an Apple fan since the late '90s. Why wouldn't it work with my regular camera ? Who needs a smartphone anyway.As for the spindle motor, called "turntable motor" in the manual, doesn't look like it has 3 windings ? According to the schematic (poster previously) it's a simple 2 wire motor. One pin goes to ground and the other is driven by a totem pole output, +10V at the top and -12V at the bottom. Not sure why you would need a negative voltage given that you only want to spin it in one direction ?Maybe they apply negative voltage as a "brake", to achieve a quick stop ?So basically it runs on 10V that's all, so should be easy to test it with the lab power supply, varying the voltage slowly up to 10V to see how easily it gets moving...Laser-wise, there is one thing I am a bit baffled about : on the schematic, it shows that the output of the laser is monitors by a photodiode. It's a close loop. Therefore the chip driving the Laser knows how much light the laser diode is emitting, so if it's weak or just plain dead, it would see it, and if it does, why would it try to read a disc in the first place ? Why doesn't it spit out an error code indicating a low laser output ? Maybe I am asking too much from these old drives ?.........Got my full set of schematics printed in A3, I can work on the thing now... let's check that laser circuitry...Oh, also : I don't have a "real" Audio CD at hand to test the drive with. So to get me going yesterday what I did is burn an audio CD on my computer, but I understand that home made CD can give mixed results depending on many factors... maybe it would be best to get hold of a real / proper audio CD before going any further... I mean, simply cleaning the lens made a difference in behaviour, so who knows what a proper audio CD might do. I would hate to spend weeks on this drive to finally come to the conclusion that it worked just fine once the lens had been clean, and that all subsequent reading problems were just due to that old drive not being happy with modern home made CD's on a 15 year old cheap super market 700MB CD, to be precise...

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 09:04:31 pm
content: There's nothing special about the spec of that cap - it doesn't need to be a low ESR one, 'ordinary' (or a good 50 year old one) should be fine.You should stop off at a charity shop and pick up a genuine audio CD too. CDRs aren't as reflective as Aluminium pressed ones so, while the player will probably play it, the signal amplitudes won't match the values in the manual. The proper calibration CD behaves like a normal audio CD but with specially included drop-outs, pinholes and calibrated fingerprints. The player will automatically mute a data CD, whether it also spits it out in disgust depends on the specific microcontroller firmware.P.S. Yes, later transports went from custom brushless spindle motors to ordinary brushed ones.

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 09:59:06 pm
content: I don't know about the laser monitor photodiode input, the TDA8808 datasheet doesn't give much extra information on that.When I mentioned 3 windings on the motor, it's true there are 2 wires to supply it but usually internally on these there are 2 poles on the permanent magnet stator and 3 poles with 3 windings in a ∆ configuration on the rotor.https://youtu.be/u_9bbW3prlsTurning the motor on the component tester you can get a comparative view of the condition of each winding and catchunclean contacts on the commutator.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2020, 10:35:51 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on December 14, 2020, 09:04:31 pmI was about to scream "planned obsolescence!" but then I thought, would the laser wear out before the motor brushes?

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2020, 10:23:10 am
content: Ha, my bet would be on the laser outlasting the motor. Those brushed CD motors are commodity items, used by 99% of players (DVD too) - even the high-end ones. Luckily it's easy to pull the CD hub/turntable off the shaft and push fit onto a new generic one.There were very few of the swoing arm mechanisms that used brushless, strangely, some of them budget. My favourites are the Philips CD371 / 372 / 471 / 472 (but not 373 or 473) which used CDM2 or CDM4 transports in the brushless variant (most of the otherCDM2 /CDM4 variants are brushed).Sorry, trainspotter information!

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2020, 04:58:21 pm
content: Same addiction here Gyro: Brushless CDM2 with TDA1541 DACs, but I'll keep a brushed CDM4 if it's freeThe construction of the CDM0 and CDM1 was plastic free which of course inspires greater quality the only problem is if you do have to disassemble the swing arm for some reason, you loose your sanity in realignment.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2020, 05:07:21 pm
content: Glad I already stocked up on ebay!

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2020, 10:07:26 pm
content: OK, just done working a few hours on the thing....1)Checked the +10V rail that feeds all the motors and the laser... read 15V and 700mV pk-pk of ripple ?!Looked at the PSU schematic... the 10V rail is not regulated at all, actually it taps directly the main filter cap right after the full bridge rectifier ! So voltage level is dependent on the transformer only, and ripple is... well it is what is given the load from all the circuitry. So I guess whatever voltage level I see, is "normal"... so that means Philips calls 10V... and 15V rail. Go figure...As for ripple, I guess it doesn't matter much for the motors, though I though it would not be wonderful for the stability of the current in the laser LED ?!... but what do I know.Replaced the cap, 6000uF 16V.... yes, 16V cap for 15V rail... are they kidding ?In situ, the original cap read... open circuit. So replaced it. Had an almost exact replacement in my collection of 50 year old cap. It read spot on, I charged it, hold a charge very well... so I soldered it on. Absolutely no change, not even in ripple.Tested the original cap (Nichicon...), and oh... now it does register something, and reads spot on ! Bummer...So, red herring I guess. Still, Thumbs down to Philips for putting a 16V filter cap on a 15V rail, and labeling in the schematics, the rail as being 10V....That, or... the secondary winding of the transformer is partially shorted, less effective turns so higher voltage ?! I am not really in my comfort zone here, so might be talking BS sorry...However I have to say that there is another rail that also reads quite a bit higher than its name suggests : the " -13.. -15V " rail reads more like 18V !So if there is indeed a defective transformer and the rial is really supposed to be 10V... then I guess a 16V rated filter cap is fine.Hmmm.... need your view on this ! Faulty transformer or not ? :-/2)Tested all the components of the Laser circuitry, all fine, resistors spot on, NPN transistor tests OK (though it might be tired/weak, who knows). The pesky 33uF reads just fine at 37uF. No it's not a blue philips axial, it's a "normal" cap, a Nichicon. On the decoder/servo board there are 20 caps or so. Only 3 blue Philips, but at the other end of the board, near the bit ICs. The 17 remaining caps, in the analog part of the board we are most interested in, are all Nichicon.3)Spent a lot of time on the circuitry that drives the turntable motor. Fired up the scope to check waveforms all over the place, while the player was trying to load discs. I think in the last 4 hours I have ejected and loaded the cassette more times than I have in the years I used the player back in the day !I first tested the motor, feeding it directly with my lab power supply. I of course manually inserted a CD into the drive, from the bottom of the unit, so that the motor is loaded, in case it weak and might spin without a load but not with a load.At the nominal 10V (assuming it is indeed 10V not 15...), motor/disc starts on the button, and after 2 or 3 seconds it has reached its full speed. at 15V it's... very strong to say the least...So, I don't think the motor is at fault, nor a stiff spindle or any mechanical stuff.So I then moved on to the driving circuitry. Started backwards : from the totem pole final driver then upstream.Right there, it's fishy : the two transistors of the totem pole... both of them... their emitter-collector is shorted !Also, there collector is not directly connected to the positive and negative rails. They connect via small resistors, 4,7ohms .... and.... trouble here again ! these resistor read almost open circuit, half a meg for one, several Megs for the other !Given the schematic, it should be possible to measure them in situ reliably, no ? Plus, even if not, any parasitic circuitry would cause the reading to be LOWER then nominal, can't possibly make it read HIGHER ! Never mind Megaohms !So... doesn't look good ! Will desolder these trannies and resistors to measure them properly anyway, to be 100% sure, but I can't see how it would be any different.Then I probed the rest of that circuitry, to see what was going on, see if the player was at least trying to spin the motor or not.Hard to say... because it's not easy to understand how it all works, it turns out !As you can see (see schematics posted earlier), aside from the final drive / totem pole, there is a dual op-amp, and two control signals, TC and TCMP, and some circuitry between the two op-amps. TC signal is coming from the left, issued from the decoder chip. TCMP comes from a micro. TC, appears to be a "clock" signal... well, I mean it's TTL level, periodic, 50% duty-cycle... looks like a clock. It is present at ALL times, even when the drives is idling, doing nothing at all. Frequency is about 88kHz...hmm... interesting number....could that be related to the 44kHz sampling rate of CDs ?! .....Then this signal is turned into DC voltage via a low-pass filter, then it feed the first op-amp, set up as comparator with some hysteresis, if I am not mistaken. Then it goes through that block of discrete components, diodes, resistors, caps... whose role escapes me 100%. The TCMP signal is mixed with that blob of component, again in some mysterious way. Then that goes to the second-op amp, set up as... an integrator or something ?!So I probed all that area at lenght. The output of the comparator does show activity during the 2 seconds where the read head is trying to focus/ jiggles. during that same time, TCMP signal shows two nice solid 1 second long pulses, corresponding to the two movements of the head. So that's promising. At first I though it was strange to drive the motor for such short pulses, since one second, from my experiments above, is not enough to get the motor up to speed. But then I figured that the drive might not have to care : if the disc is not at the correct speed it's not a problem. As long as it's moving, it should be enough for the read head to sense a bit stream. bit stream that would make zero sense but it's not the point : if there is ANY bit stream, then it means a disc is present or else the photo-diodes would just read a constant/flat signal. Then, once the the player sees that there is a disc, it can give the motor more time to stabilize at the correct speed, and actually try to make sense of the data, and try to retrieve the TOC. So, just to say that maybe what I am seeing on the scope actually could make sense and be encouraging....THE PROBLEM : TCMP signal output of the first op-amp looks promising, but... this results in... no signal on the input of the second op-amp ! Zero volt, constant. So, also nada at the output of the op-amp, so totem pole is not being driven (assuming it were not blown from to bottom that is ! ).So I think maybe there is a bad component in that bloc of analog goodness between the two op-amps. I don't understand at all what it does exactly, how it works, doesn't help really... so I guess I will have to use brute force and just check every one of these components one by one, hoping to find a faulty one. Also, I guess it's possible that the op-amp itself is faulty ? Maybe it's input is defective, and shorted to ground ? .. though I guess this is unlikely since the op-amp in this case doesn't even know what "ground" is, doesn't mean anything to it, since it's powered by symmetrical supply.4)Laser power adjustment : I noticed that the trimmer (wired as an adjustable resistor, not a pot) that adjusts the laser output, is set pretty much all the way to one end : reads 400ohms for a 4,7k track. I don't know which around it works, so either it is set to maximum power, or to minimum... if set to minimum that might explain why the spot appears so weak to my eyes ?!I will ask my dad if if he messed with the laser and focus trimmers....5)I got hold of a "proper" audio CD in place of my home made CDR ... didn't make any change, player still reacts 100% the same.Anyway, next : will reconstruct the totem pole driver and check the bunch of components sitting between the two-op-amps.

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2020, 11:19:49 pm
content: 1:All rails do seem a little high and they were optimistic on the 6mF 16v cap, but hey after all those years it's still good!The default mains wiring is 220V, these days in France we're often between 230 and 240V, you should be able to rewire for >220V by sending mains to pins 4/6 on transformer instead of 4/5 that should reduce secondary a little.Transformers do short, sometimes partially, usually that results in a hot transformer with low voltages that soon self destructs. To get higher voltages on the secondary, you'd need a partial short on primary and for the shorted portion to go open circuit leaving a shorter winding, may be possible...? I doubt it.2:Good news!3:The motors never run at full rated voltage in the CD player, they're PLL'ed so the rotation speed will give the appropriate bitrate while reading, that's why a CD will spin faster on the first tracks (inner) than on the last ones (outer).Running at lower voltages also means less torque, although I don't know how much initial voltage is allowed to get the disk moving.These motors will run with a shorted winding, on a lab supply you'll not notice unless you know the normal current draw or monitor the current on a scope to spot the peak when defective winding is being fed.The totem-pole output could have self-destructed through old age, PS being closer to VCEOmax, weak solders and heat... At the risk of being repetitive seeing that destroyed I'd go straight to the motor, if you're sure enough of the motor with the lab supply test, replace the totem pole and fuse resistors and I'm confident you'll be playing again for years.Just make sure you do plenty of play/stop cycles, if once in a while you get an error and no spin you know where to double check4:Good idea to check with your dad.In doubt I'll usually readjust laser power down to the minimum required to get no skipping on a used CD-R. (When a player will tolerate them, most do.)5:If anything else was destroyed it would be the OP-AMP itself, I doubt it though.

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 10:08:46 pm
content: Hey Chacal, don't be afraid to repeat yourself if you feel I have not paid sufficient attention to some of your points !1)So, I dug out my old Hameg scope, which is a bit broken (vertical position knob on CH1 is broken, and it's such a pain to fix that I just can't find the motivation...). Never used the component tester on this thing, so had to read the manual, don't laugh pleaseIt could not be easier... except it's too easy to be useful : when I connect the motor to it, all I get is a vertical line, no ellipse. Well looing up close you can "imagine" there is an ellipse there, but squeezed so much on the X axis that it looks like a vertical line.Test works though, I tried it with a few caps. Manual says taht it outputs a 8.5V sine wave in serie with 4,7K ohms.Problem is that the X axis sensitivity is fixed, there are no scale adjustment in CT mode.So I guess next thing is to build my own tester and use the XY mode on a scope. This way I can fine tune the sensitivity on X and Y axis to suit the motor. This way hopefully I should be able to display nice ellipses and will be able to easily spot any mismatch in the 3 ellipses/ windings. Stay tuned....2)I rewired the main transformer for 240V. As expected the 10V rails is now about 10% lower. Now 13,65V instead of 15V or so.Under load, when the motors are working to swap discs, it drops to a bit below 13V.At least it's below the 16V rating of the filter cap so it can only be a good thing.I am still concerned about the huge ripple voltage though ! 0.7Vpp for a 13V rail, feeding the laser diode that I though (from what you all said), required accurate closed loop current regulation... one would have though that you would want a stable voltage supply for starters...3)I desoldered the totem pole section : the pair of transistors, and the two 4,7ohms series resistors that go in their collectors.Now I can be 100% sure of my measurements. They confirm what I measured in situ earlier :- The resistors are a solid open circuit.- Both transistor read fine as far as Base to Emitter and Base to Collector junctions are concerned, but somehow Collector to Emitter are a dead short, both of them. I wish I had some acid to dissolve their plastic package and investigate the die under a microscope... too curious you say ? Anyway, no acid nor microscope here, just day dreaming...The resistors are tiny 1/4W thingies, might replace them with 1/2W ....The transistors, BC 328 / 338. Just downloaded their datasheet, 25V 800mA, tiny plastic T092 package. Have a few brand new small transistors in stock, will have to check part numbers see if one of them might meet or exceed these specs.Oh no, wait a minute ! Just checked my local shop's catalogue, they do have BC 328/338 in stock ! How lucky. And dirt cheap too : was 25 cents, now discounted at 6 cents for one and 13 cents for the other ! 19 cents for the pair ! Will take a few of them just in case something goes wrong. A few 4,7ohms resistors as well, and I should be back in business !So tomorrow : build a custom CT to check the motor windings properly, trip to the shop and rebuilding of the totem pole driver.Stay tuned...

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 10:25:11 pm
content: Daddy just replied to me : said, swore, that he did NOT touch ANYTHING, didn't mess around.So, whatever the position of the focus and laser trimmer, they are as they were when left the factory.

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 10:27:48 pm
content: Oh dear me..... looking at the picture I just posted above, I just realized I tested the wrong motor : cassette related motor instead of the turntable motor !

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 10:31:01 pm
content: For the Hameg's component tester try the X mag. X10 you should see the the elipse well enough to not need to build anything.The whole point is that the check is simple and efficient. Don't forget to very slowly rotate the motor while you do the test.On rebuilding the driving stage:Go for transistors with more beef if you must although it shouldn't be necessary.I wouldn't recommend using larger resistors, Philips made extensive use of fusible resistors (the parallel lines and exclamation marks next to them on the schematic indicate the importance), upping their power is likely to prevent them from fusing, brings risk that they'll overheat in case the transistors fail short again, there's no other dedicated fuse upstream so that situation could also cook the transformer.Edit:Added photos of a random brushed DC motor I had around, the windings are good on this one, anyway it gives you a general idea of what to expect, you can see the resistance (N-E slant) and inductance elipse.If 120° of rotation show a lot less resistance and inductance than the rest consider the motor bad.Second photo shows poor contact on the commutator, most of the time a good spraying with contact stuff through the holes at the back of the motor and immediate exercise will solve that problem.

author: algorithm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2020, 11:03:11 pm
content: I repaired a 6 CD changer similar to this machine a year or 2 ago. I took it apart expecting it to be something electrical, but it was all mechanical. I cleaned the lens, disassembled to where I could access all the gears, I cleaned any old dry grease I could, greased every gear. Then on the disc spindle I barely sprayed lithium grease. After that it worked. I wasnt able to read every post but if this hasnt been tried it might be worth it. Best of luck.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2020, 12:20:16 am
content: To test the motor I'd just run it off a low voltage DC supply with a resistor in series, say 10 ohms, and put a scope across the resistor to see if the current ripple is reasonably consistent as each commutator segment goes by. Maybe compare it with a similar good motor as a guide to what to expect.

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2020, 12:31:00 am
content: Quote from: Circlotron on December 17, 2020, 12:20:16 amI vaguely suggested that too, but I knowing he has an old Hameg scope around I thought it was a good excuse to use it.We all have different habits...

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2020, 06:49:14 pm
content: Thanks for all the info ShakalNokturn, Gyro and others...Fusible resistors : so THAT's what they meant in the schematics with this funny notation ! I could not figure out what it meant, and failed to find the answer in the manual (maybe I am blind).Component tester : x10 works super, thanks for the tip ! It's not even documented in the user manual ! You are better than a user manual, Hameg should hire you, well, Rodhe&Schwarz nowadays !Now I can see the ellipse properly, yay !See pictures below. I don't see any difference whatsoever when I turn the motor to switch from one winding to the next. Yes, I was turning it veeeery slowly, but still, all ellipses look 100% identical, you just can't tell when you are switching winding.However I do get some "crap" on the waveform, but only at the very tips / ends of the ellipse, top and bottom, and it's perfectly stable, doesn't look like random noise at all. So I poured a good dose of contact cleaner into the thing anyway, exercised it, but that didn't get rid of the crap in the slightest. I figured then that it was "normal" behaviour, at least for now, and therefore moved on and proceeded to rebuild the totem pole driver. Put the same model transistors since my local shop had them and they had been working fine for the past 30 years...However for the fusible resistors, he didn't have much choice. The ones he had in stock were 1/2W not 1/4W, and would only go up to 2 ohms. 4,7ohms is already too high. Did Philips actually use real fusible resistors (which are wire wound from what the guy said at the shop), or did Philips use regular resistors and just labeled them as "fusible" resistor because that is their function/role in the circuit, but actually used regular carbon resistors to implement that functionality ?Anyway, not much choice so I just bought a few 4,7ohms regular/normal carbon 1/4W resistors. At the least, it would be good enough to get me going in my diagnostic adventure.So I replaced the transistors and "fusible" resistors.Yes..... IT WORKS now !!!!SUCCESS !!!Everything works just fine, like new I am telling you !The disc starts on the button, and stops very quickly as well.Switching from one track to the next, is fast no worries, just one second, no more no less. Just the time to quickly count "12345- 12345" and the next track is already playing, sounds good to me, it's a mechanical device after all...Fast forward and rewind work well too.Overall it's very responsive, no glitch no skipping no delay no nothing, it works perfectly !I then tried with my home made CDR... it works just as well as a "real" audio CD. Reliable and responsive, absolutely no difference.So I got lucky then, it was a cheap and easy fix ! No faulty complex IC, no tired laser, no focusing problem... the stars were alignedThank you all for your help and advise, learned quite a bit about CD players, my first one !If I have to fix another one day, at least I will have some rudiments about these things, I won't feel as clueless and overwhelmed as I was when I started this repair...So happy I could fix the CD player of my childhood, and also happy to have fixed what I understand is a "special" player that the connoisseurs appreciateI know what a "swing arm" is nowHappy Vince, happy !

author: DrG
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 17, 2020, 07:40:52 pm
content: ...been following this...good deal!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2020, 12:29:05 am
content: I always enjoy your threads Vince.Congrats mate, pop will be pleased.

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2020, 12:34:31 am
content: Pleased to hear you got it back on track.I don't know that much about fusible resistors myself, I did learn in school that they exist and know they usually stand out on schematics with an exclamation mark.It's funny that the service manual has no specific note for this...I think Philips used metal film fusible resistors, designed to fuse cleanly not just a random resistor with specific power and resistance rating. I suspect they have a weak point in the middle, I've always seen them blow with a small hot spot in the middle.A couple of topics on the subject:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/what-is-a-fuse-resistor/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/are-metal-film-resistors-fusible-resistors/These swing arm transports are known for being fast on track search.On a typical CD transport you have a motor and gears for the coarse tracking which makes large track skips slowish. The fine tracking is done by slightly moving the lens horizontally (same idea as focus servo, different axis).On the swing arm setup the arm does all the tracking action, fine and coarse, the only limitation to speed when skipping tracks is the inertia/current thrown into the coil.Now because I was looking for a motor to illustrate the Hameg test I've dug out a Philips 70CD555/30 vintage boombox picked from the dumpster a few months ago, unfortunately it uses a brushless motor (no, I'm actually happy about that...) so was no use for the purpose.Tape isn't working, CD shows laser and spins during detection but no play, the lens spring seems to have taken some bashing, so there's time to spend when I find some for that.Apparently there are fans:http://70cd555.com/It would make a nice Li-Ion / MP3/ Bluetooth upgrade project too. Nah, I'll never ever have time for that!Vince, you would have learnt so much more with an awkward fault

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 18, 2020, 08:07:15 pm
content: Congratulations VinceI should have thought to mention fusible resistors. Phillips players of that generation and earlier are full of them - one per digital IC in the series I mentioned!

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 10:02:52 am
content: Quote from: tautech on December 18, 2020, 12:29:05 amHi Tautech !Yes the old man was very happy it turns out, even said I could KEEP the player !I was supposed to get it only after his death, but he said that since it meant so much to me, I could have it right now.Too bad he lost the remote control, a piece of that player is gone for good nowGuess I could find a replacement one but it's not the point, it would not be "my" remote control, then one I played with back in the day. Yes I know, I am too sentimental...Anyway, he has already replaced the Philips it with a crappy modern Sony (single) CD player he was given.Now my living room is still a cluster fuck due to the house not being quite finished/habitable yet... so I packed all my belongings into the living room. So no space for CD player... or maybe... maybe I could put it on the top shelf of my lab along with my instruments, there is some free space available. This way I could use it to play music while I spend hours working on fixing stuff.Just need an amplifier and some speakers, of which I know nothing. Want some decent but cheap stuff of course,no money here. Did Philips make amplifiers "matching" these swing arm CD players ? Something with the same look/industrial design ?If not will just get some old Japanese amp, some Yamaha from the same period as the Philips. Last I looked a few years ago, these cost 50 Euros or so...As for speakers, will try to find something local so I can hopefully test them before buying, in case some moron would dare to ship defective speakers....

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 10:29:26 am
content: Quote from: shakalnokturn on December 18, 2020, 12:34:31 amFanSSS I am not sure, but at least ONE fan and you found him!And looks like he has just as much trouble with his unit as you do with yours ! Everything involving mechanical parts is broken !QuoteYeah sure ! But it was my first dive into a CD player, learning a new type of device is hard enough, I needed an easy fix to get me started !Next repair I would be willing to take a more complicated problem... might be sooner than I thought in fact : old man said he has another Philips unit to fix ! No not a swing arm, but a cheapo combination unit he bought in 2000, so made in China this one, not in Belgium like the old swing arms.. It combines a tape player, radio/tuner, amplifier and a.... CD player of course !He said the CD player no longer works so I could have a go at it if I wanted to ! No particular sentimental value in this one.However it's a got a cool 4 disc carousel changer system. This allows daddy to listen to music uninterrupted for hours, which he likes. So it would still be cool to be able to fix it so dad can enjoy a changer again.Being a "modern" china made thing, I doubt there is a service manual for this thing, so might be difficult to fix regardless of the fault it has...

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 02:35:34 pm
content: If you're looking for a small Philips amp. the FA443 seems to match quite well for looks.Then there's a few models in the FA 400 through to FA 800 series, and some PA series.If it was me I'd just pick the first dirt-cheap quality looking broken amplifier, they're easy and fun to repair most of the time, finding replacement potentiometers can be a bit of a headache. Maybe avoid the JVC Super-A models.You're absolutely right for the speakers: Must listen to them before buying.Philips made some decent cabinets, their speakers were also fitted on other brands like Bang & Olufsen.You should be able to find a decent working pair for less than 50€, I'd advise on getting 3 way rather than 2 way.I like the French Davis Acoustics speakers usually very efficient, anything with Audax, Seas/Vifa drivers is worth it too IMHO. There's also Magnat that are not so well known and have some nice models, there's too much around too choose from really...

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 06:51:55 pm
content: Thanks for the advise... getting a cheap broken amp, didn't even think of that, will see what I can find on ebay or LBC....Hmm, found that thing on LBC, a defective Sony F261R for 10 Euros. Says Stereo doesn't work anymore. I guess he means one of the channels failed... with some luck just a few power transistors to replace...https://www.leboncoin.fr/image_son/1897811897.htm

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 08:03:24 pm
content: Often as simple as refreshing plenty of solders.The Sony TA-F261R doesn't use discrete power transistors on the output stage but a Sanyo STK hybrid module instead, it could cost a little more than a pair of transistors if the output is blown.A bit of a gamble...

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 08:46:24 pm
content: Boy I just pick an amp at random and you are telling me that you know what this thing is and what's in it ?!... there is one thing I lie a lot about it : there is decent service manual available for it !!! Always amazes me to find service manuals for consumer gear, especially in the '90s when even professional test gear like Tektronix and HP started NOT including schematics any longer in their manuals. The world is upside down...So am looking at the schematic as we speak.. yes first thing I noticed is what you just said ... oh well.It uses precisely an STK4182Mk2. At least it's still available used for a couple Euros it seems, so not the end of the world even if it turns out it is indeed that thing that's faulty.Only one channel is not working so the chip is not 100% dead, just one half of it... is that even a plausible scenario ?We shall see. Anyway, it looks like there is quite a bunch of discrete components in that amp, other than the STK module per se.So lots of room for a simpler fixHey let's be optimistic....Who know, maybe the STK is fine and it's just the input signal that's not getting to the STK...For 10 Euros (+ 10 Euros shipping) not much to lose... if it's not repairable I will just keep it for parts...Anyway, it's all your fault, YOU suggested that I get a cheap amp to fix rather than getting a more expensive working one !.... and now I am sold to the idea, I am excited to get my first amplifier and start work on it, whatever the outcome it should be fun trying to fix it...

author: shakalnokturn
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 19, 2020, 11:53:47 pm
content: Well... No, although I do have a lot of equipment in mind I didn't know off the top of my head. I did suspect the model may be STK based and as you mentioned output transistors and I kinda dragged you into this I thought I better check before feeling too guilty.Well it's still 20€ arguably you may find a working one for hardly more, a real gamble would be to find a non working model that sells for a nice price once working.Then you face the problem of having to sell one before you buy the next - or not.It will soon be time you rename the topic...

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 20, 2020, 10:28:00 am
content: Quote from: shakalnokturn on December 19, 2020, 11:53:47 pmIt's 20° shipped, the amp itself is only 10 Euros. Working ones I saw were more like : "make me a serious offer "...QuoteNaaaaaah, next post will be the last one : "just got the amp, here is the link to its topic if you care "

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 06:28:09 pm
content: Deal done for the amp, got shipped today... 18,5 Euros all in ! Can't wait to receive it. In the meantime, let's play a little more with the CD player shall we ?I just measured the current in the windings of the turntable motor, as you suggested. See results below.Motor runs from the floating output of the lab power supply.I had a home made 0.1 ohm-ish current shunt I cobbled together a while ago for some other purpose. 5 identical age old wire wound resistors, 0,47 ohm each, soldered in parallel. Enough to take some juice. Well now I think of it, was probably not very clever to probe motor windings with... a wire wound resistor. I don't know how much of a change I would get if I used a non inductive current shunt... guess I will have to do the experiment all over again !.....Anyway, for what it's worth here is what I get.Motor draws about 10mA per volt. At 10V there is way too much noise and spikes to make sense of the waveform. Tried some mild averaging but it kills the signals along with the noise, so not much use sadly. So had to resort to single shot with no averaging. Lowered the voltage and noticed that from 5V or so and below, signal becomes much more "calm" and you can actually see something usable. I took the screenshot at 5V or so.2mV per division AC coupled. About 1.5 DIV peak to peak, so about 3mV, which means 30mA.Unless I am mistaken, we can see about 4 "periods" on the screen, so 4 windings passing by, hence a full revolution. We have a complete picture of the motor then. The 3 windings look pretty much identical in shape and amplitude eh ? So motor good enough for a few more years ?!

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 06:45:03 pm
content: ...GRRR !!!!Can't upload the pic of the scope screenshot showing the waveform, forum AGAIN refused to upload the pic with this weird and stupid message, as it did a the other day :Code:" Your attachment has failed security checks and cannot be uploaded. Please consult the forum administrator ".This forum is starting to drive me nuts, can't even post bloody pictures any more !

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 08:35:04 pm
content: At last !!! Here goes the offending picture !Converted it from JPG to PNG file format, seems to make the forum happy !However the file is now 4 times the size even though I reduced the resolution of the pic by 4 fold !So it's not acceptable... just a short term work-around to get by ! This needs to be fixed properly...

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 23, 2020, 09:09:28 pm
content: Looks fine.The turntable is part of a closed loop system anyway, so it would actually need to have a dead spot to prevent it from spinning up.

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 30, 2020, 06:40:39 pm
content: Thanks Gyro, this lovely 30 year old player is good for a few more years of service then, greatJust received my broken amp to go along with the CD player, played with it yesterday, just posted the topic about it there, if some kind soul knows about audio amps and could help me there.... or just want to see me suffer as I scratch my head about just every single tiny little thing...https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/90s-audio-amp-repair-(need-help)-sony-f261r/msg3393546/#msg3393546

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 06, 2021, 09:32:42 pm
content: Just started work on fixing my second Philips CD player here, in case you guys might be willing to give me a hand... the swing arm experience taught me the basics so I have been able to start work on it my own, yesterday :https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/cd-player-in-distress-philips-3-disc-carousel-changer/msg3403700/#msg3403700

author: TheNewLab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 02:11:32 am
content: Yay Vince!Been following, I have the same unit, found on the street. My CD changer won't rotate. Maybe I'll get around to fix it. Right now having fun playing old cassettes...

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 08, 2021, 02:44:35 am
content: Found on the street ?! Lucky you... all I find in the streets is dog poop and cigarette butts.Your issue sounds like an easy one, at least to diagnose. If it's a mechanical issue with a broken plastic part, might not be that easy to actually fix... but with a 3D printer these days, that's the kind of part one can make.If you create a topic about it, come back here to give us the link, I am curious to see the repair

author: Vince
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2021, 07:57:21 pm
content: Friends ! If I may steal 5 minutes of your valuable time, maybe I direct your attention to yet another CD repair, my third, over there :https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/vintage-cd-player-repair-sony-cdp-c305-5-disc-carousel/msg3504280/#msg3504280I fixed it somehow, but could use your input regarding what to do.. or not do, regarding adjusting the laser output, before I call it done and button it up.... thanks in advance !