higher quality crimp terminals (brands?) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2024, 06:54:19 pm
content: not sure this is the best subforum, but here goes:I'm looking for very good (high end brand, so to speak) who makes very strong (thick metal) crimp terms. I think they call them disconnect terminals; either insulated or non-insulated where they slip over a spade, such as on relays or on/off switches.I once had access to a surplus store that had old parts (often 20 or more years, often US made stuff from the olden days) and they had some amazing crimp terms. very strong metal, not the thin crap you get from china.I cant remember the brand, though! they really stood out and looked quite beefy. anyone have any names that might jarr my memory?I have a good crimper; pressmaster with some inserts that do a great job. I just need suitably 'trustable' crimp terms.hints?

author: Accu-Sembly
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2024, 08:15:31 pm
content: A lot of our aerospace guys like Panduit.

author: The Soulman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 08, 2024, 08:21:59 pm
content: I've used AMP, much better than the generic off-brand stuff.

author: linux-works
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2024, 02:55:45 pm
content: I've heard of both of those brands, thanks.still trying to get the name of the other one that I saw stamped on a bag of terminals I bought a few years ago (but cant locate at the moment).when I did a search for that brand, at the time, they were really expensive and not all that easily sourced (from consumer outlets, at least).

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 09, 2024, 05:52:07 pm
content: TE/AMP, 3M, Panduit, Molex, Vogt, JST, etc.Regardless of manufacturer, there are several types. The biggest difference is perhaps whether you have a separate metal sleeve or not.The cheaper products use a single sheet of metal, stamped and folded into shape, with simple plastic insulation molded onto it.In more expensive ones (like TE/AMP PIDG series), a separate copper tube is affixed as superior insulation support. This copper tube carries the insulation. See e.g.https://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=srchrtrv&DocNm=1773464-1_QRG_PIDG&DocType=DS&DocLang=English&DocFilename=ENG_DS_1773464-1_QRG_PIDG_1901.pdfAnother aspect is how the conductor crimp barrel is finished. Regular ones have a butted seam, meaning the crimp barrel is shaped to a cylinder and that’s that. Premium ones have a brazed seam where the seam has been fused together.The retention mechanism varies, too. Standard is friction and a little dimple. But you can also get ones with a separate catch, with various types of release mechanisms. Those require less mating force.Insulation material is another criterion. Standard ones are PVC or polyolefin, premium ones are nylon.IIRC, AMP (now TE) invented these things, and indeed their Faston catalog is huge, and goes into the features and types in great detail:https://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=srchrtrv&DocNm=82004_FASTON_TERMINALS_-_FULL_CATALOG&DocType=CS&DocLang=ENAlso note that that for tab sizes smaller than 1/4” (6.3ish mm), they exist with 0.5mm and 0.8mm tab thickness, and the smallest ones even in 0.3mm and 0.4mm. Make sure to match them.

author: coppercone2
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2024, 04:43:51 am
content: they need seamless

author: exmadscientist
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 10, 2024, 07:31:59 pm
content: I don't think it's possible to beat the price-performance ratio of TE/AMP PIDG terminals with their 59824-1 crimp tool. The 59824-1 isn't TE's best, but it's damn close, and it's far more versatile. They don't advertise it much because it can crimp near anything in that range, while their top-end tools can only handle a few sizes each (so you need to spend $6k or whatever on tooling versus $400, if you buy new). Recommended.Oh, and it's all UL approved. Which might be important sometimes.

author: mtwieg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 01:32:48 pm
content: Thanks for explaining the benefits of the PIDG terminals. Do they really need the special crimp tool from TE, or can they be crimped using generic tools meant for insulated terminals?

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 03:38:20 pm
content: Is this for high quantity production or one off stuff?Personally, I've never liked crimp terminals. They are good for crimping and connecting, but I've seen issues of coming out when trying to disassemble something or tend to wiggle.Anytime I use crimp terminals (even connector pins), I always solder them too.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 14, 2024, 04:23:57 pm
content: Quote from: mtwieg on August 14, 2024, 01:32:48 pmTheyre supposed to be crimped with a different insulation crimp shape. But I’ve done them with a regular tool (the non-PIDG Knipex) and it seems to be OK. I just wouldn’t do that with very soft insulation like silicone — I suspect the generic tool would overcrimp the insulation.

author: mtwieg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 15, 2024, 12:39:02 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on August 14, 2024, 03:38:20 pmBoth, sort of. When I open the "generic terminals" drawer at work, there's a couple bags of the PIDG-style terminals in there, and I've never really known what their deal was. But if they are more reliable then I might want to actually use them in products too.QuoteThere is likely an explanation for this, either wrong tooling or technique. Or just low quality terminals.QuoteYou've probably heard this, but don't**. A proper crimp is at least as reliable as a solder joint. In the case of terminals which are inserted into a plastic housing, the post-crimp solder can prevent the terminal from fitting.**Unless you are crimping to wire that has already been tinned with solder, in which case it's a good idea.Quote from: tooki on August 14, 2024, 04:23:57 pmYeah the insulation material and thickness of the wire is normally not mentioned by the terminal vendors. Which is why I assume that the exact tooling is not absolutely necessary (for the insulation crimp. The conductor crimp is far more important).edit:the official hand tool from TE is "only" $240 though. I wonder if I can use it to crimp "normal" insulated terminals...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2024, 01:25:01 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on August 14, 2024, 03:38:20 pmThen something was wrong.The tab widthand thicknessneed to match the terminal. A terminal made for 0.8mm thick tabs will be dangerously loose if mated with a 0.5mm thick tab. A terminal made for 0.5mm thick tabs will be extremely difficult to mate with a 0.8mm thick tab, unless the terminal is of such low quality (thin sheet metal) that it jus deforms easily.And of course the crimp connection requires the correct combination of terminal, wire, and tool.Quote from: bostonman on August 14, 2024, 03:38:20 pmThat’s a big no-no that people do to mask shitty crimps. But solder wicking up the wire strands makes it more brittle, reducing reliability.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2024, 01:29:24 pm
content: Quote from: mtwieg on August 15, 2024, 12:39:02 pmCrimping wire that is tinned with solder is an absolute no-no, and post-crimp soldering is undesirable, too. Just snip off the solder-tinned portion and crimp to bare wire.Quote from: mtwieg on August 15, 2024, 12:39:02 pmI’m really not sure. I haven’t ever had the chance to try a tool with the diamond-shaped insulation crimp that PIDG is intended to use.The $2000 PIDG tool actually lets you set the insulation crimp size independently of the conductor crimp, to match different insulation thicknesses. ::drool:

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 17, 2024, 09:06:43 pm
content: Another good brand is Klauke.

author: xavier60
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2024, 03:11:06 am
content: I use this brand,https://www.quikcrimp.com.au/terminals/terminals/insulated-terminals.htmlWith Cabac KTC3 crimper.

author: Kean
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: August 18, 2024, 05:34:48 am
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 17, 2024, 09:06:43 pmI recently got a Klauke battery powered crimping tool (second hand). It uses 10.8V batteries (compatible with DeWalt). It is awesome!https://www.klauke.com/au/en/ekwf50ml-electromechanical-crimping-pliers-for-cable-end-sleeves-and-twin-cable-end-sleevesGreenlee sell something similar (probably just rebadged & green). I've seen other brands who also rebadge the same unit.I bought some expensive/official dies, plus a set from China that sit the machine. I just need to find the right tooling for some of the crimp connectors I use, like uninsulated ring terminals. None of the standard dies seem to do a neat job on those, or will jam after crimping.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2024, 02:00:16 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on August 17, 2024, 09:06:43 pmThe Klauke hand tools appear to be rebadged WEZAG, a German OEM manufacturer of crimp tools that supplies many of the big connector manufacturers (and has supplied most of the big ones at some point). I very much like WEZAG tools.WEZAG seems to have removed a ton of products from their website at some point in the last year, and many of the models Klauke sells are not shown anymore, but I very much doubt they've stopped making them, since WEZAG actually has very few standard products, and mostly makes custom tools.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2024, 03:54:48 pm
content: QuoteI fully agree on both statements. Listing ten bad crimps I've seen in all my years would be a struggle, but the few I've seen was enough to suggest I solder any crimp terminals for home projects.In all my years, I've never crimped any connectors for home projects except the ones from Home Depot (whatever those connectors are called, the round hole ones and the fork type) and for a dab of solder, it was well worth eliminating the additional failure point in a repair.At my old job I would sometimes crimp tiny Molex (?) pins and 90% of the time I'd do it wrong. They'd bend the metal and break, the wire wouldn't feel tight, etc...Soldering the crimp connections isn't a great practice, I'll fully agree. Sometimes the solder runs down more than I'd like, other times it just leaves a sticky flux mess. For my low volume repairs, if I have the opportunity to solder crimps, I'll usually do so.At another job they had large rectangular battery connectors (forgot the name, but they came in different colors) for thick gauge wire, maybe 4 gauge. People would tug on the wire to disconnect the battery and rip the wire out of the connector pin. I came up with the idea to heat the pin with a blow torch, fill it with solder, and they never had issues again.The unfortunate part was I over did it with the solder and it would wick up into the wire making the first few inches rigid.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2024, 04:21:09 pm
content: Quote from: bostonman on August 18, 2024, 03:54:48 pmI'm guessing this was not with the official tooling?I recently crimped 100 Molex Micro-Fit 3.0 (whose contacts are quite small, similar in size to Dupont) using the official hand tool, and had zero miscrimps. Literally every single one came outflawless. (I also crimped 100 Amphenol Ecomate RM contacts, the machined closed-barrel style. I didn't have the complete official tooling, which is an indent crimper and their custom positioner, but I did have the correct crimper and just very carefully set up the universal positioner I have. That also produced 100% flawless crimps.)Quote from: bostonman on August 18, 2024, 03:54:48 pmSounds like those weren't getting crimped properly, either? A successful crimp is normally so strong that the wire breaks before it pulls out!You basically turned them into solder cups, eh?

author: mtwieg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2024, 04:50:05 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 17, 2024, 01:29:24 pmAgree in general, but sometimes it's unavoidable (like when working with litz wire).Quote from: tooki on August 18, 2024, 04:21:09 pmI use micro-fit 3.0 very often for work, and can attest to the value of paying forthe right tooling. Can't imagine working without them.

author: SCSKITS
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2024, 06:20:47 pm
content: Also recommend the AMP parts with the 59824 series crimper.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 18, 2024, 08:27:40 pm
content: Quote from: mtwieg on August 18, 2024, 04:50:05 pmWell, I wouldn't call that unavoidable. There are numerous other ways to deal with it. See e.g.https://www.newenglandwire.com/litz-wire-termination-guide/And if you absolutely have none of those alternatives available, I'd sooner solder (only) to the crimp terminal than to crimp to solder-tinned wire.Quote from: mtwieg on August 18, 2024, 04:50:05 pmThat's the one I have, too. I got lucky and found mine on a local auction site, new in box, for about $120 shipped.Quote from: mtwieg on August 18, 2024, 04:50:05 pmI am convinced that everyone who says crimping is unreliable, or too difficult, or otherwise says that it sucks, has never done it with good tooling. I would probably have abandoned crimping, too, if all I had was the crappy Chinesium crimper I started with!

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2024, 01:01:26 am
content: QuoteBasically, yesThey were Anderson connectors - a quick Google search for "industrial battery connectors" seemed to do the trick.The cables were several feet (maybe over ten-feet) and people would grab the cable, tug hard, and snap the wire out of the crimp. This was certainly not something normally practiced, so I don't blame the crimps for not holding.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2024, 11:25:41 am
content: I’m still kinda surprised, and still suspect they were not crimped correctly.

author: mtwieg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2024, 11:42:48 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 18, 2024, 08:27:40 pmI'm well aware of New England wire, we use their litz wire very often and consult with them on our process. I believe the non-solder termination processes are for very large wire diameters (like 0 AWG) with very large strand sizes (like 20 AWG) and low strand counts. For fine strands (40 AWG and up) there's no reliable alternative to soldering.QuoteIn theory this might be feasible but you'd have to dip the entire terminal in the solder along with the crimp, which might cause other problems. Might be ok for basic ring or spade terminals, never tried it.I've also wondered if soldering the litz wire into a ferrule and crimping to that would be the best compromise. Asked NEW about it and they basically said "interesting, give it a try and let us know how it goes".

author: deadlylover
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2024, 12:40:40 pm
content: Quote from: mtwieg on August 14, 2024, 01:32:48 pmEhhhhh the "correct" answer is always the tool and the terminal must be matched. In my experience the PIDG are ok with normal tools, but TE's ultra-fast faston terminal line just doesn't work at all so don't accidentally buy those (they have a flat edge on one side so it doesn't work with generic tooling).When I pulled them both to failure, the Pressmaster failed at the strain relief while the AMP failed somewhere in the main crimp (does that mean with vibration and age the Pressmaster will fail earlier, who knows). I can't remember the numbers off the top of my head but both of them were way over the mil-spec tensile strength, it was really uncomfortable pulling ~35kgf on 16 AWG wire, and the strength is basically the same as the wire only without any crimps.Pictures are a PIDG red terminal 320559, looks pink in my photos. I managed to buy a couple hundred terminals cheap on eBay so I'll have to do a bit more experimenting for science...I just hate "wasting" them ahahah.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2024, 01:23:40 pm
content: QuoteI agree that if crimped correctly, it should be solid. Most likely the best way to crimp in this case would be a crimp in the middle of the terminal cup so the end of the wire is flared and can't pull out beyond the crimped metal. Those Anderson connectors were quite tight though. It took quite a bit to disconnect them, so add several feet of wire, someone yanking on the wire with an instantaneous force, etc... and they'd pop out.Technically speaking though, over time, doesn't the wire/connector develop corrosion, and, as the wire wiggles (say due to many removals), the connection becomes intermittent?Over the years I've seen various connector type failures. One was gold pins on a connector that when soldered on the PCB developed (per the term used at the company) gold embrittlement in the solder. This (and maybe a combination) of the female connector having non-gold contacts caused the voltage to vary. This varying voltage caused alarms in the unit because it would sag beyond the firmware alarm trip point.For the most part though, any connector that has properly crimped pins should last, so I don't disagree. I just see crimped pins and the first thing I think of: this is another failure point and I can eliminate it by soldering the crimps.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2024, 02:06:07 pm
content: QuoteAFAIK keeping the crimp as the same sorts of metals as the wire with about the same range of electrode potentials will not give problems unless very humid environments.Just the opposite, soldering with flux inclusions and different added metals are prone to corrosion.QuoteOr you design for more than a few removals and then use the appropriate connectors and shielded/isolated cables with mechanical strain relief (example sud-d connector housing with crimped contacts) OR you remove the connectors on the connector itself not by pulling the wire(s) even when the crimp does provide a form of mechanical strain relief on the isolation of the wires.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2024, 02:35:39 pm
content: Everything is prone to failure though due to time. Soldered wires to PCBs versus connectors and they develop cracks in the solder.For the record, I don't disagree with anyone. Properly crimped pins, proper insulation, etc... is key.I've worked on stuff and disconnected connectors numerous times and been amazed at how they've held up.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 19, 2024, 06:33:47 pm
content: Quote from: mtwieg on August 19, 2024, 11:42:48 amChemical, flame, or salt stripping? Soldering isn’t the only non-mechanical way to strip.I wouldn’t be so sure that the other processes are only for large wire anyway, unless the respective manufacturers say so.Quote from: mtwieg on August 19, 2024, 11:42:48 amWho said anything about dipping the terminal?!!You’d use a solder bath to tin the wire, then solder it into the terminal. Like with a soldering iron.Quote from: mtwieg on August 19, 2024, 11:42:48 amThat would give me the heebie-jeebies. It basically sounds like you could easily end up with a fractured solder joint within the ferrule.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 12:13:17 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on August 19, 2024, 01:23:40 pmOne should not be guessing at how it should be crimped: if you want a reliable crimp, you do what the manufacturer says.Anderson PowerPole (most likely the ones in question) normally use a closed-barrel crimp terminal, and Anderson is crystal clear on how to crimp it: using their tool, with the indents centered along the crimp barrel. (They also list soldering as a non-preferred alternative to crimping. But not both.) And they have pull test specifications.Quote from: bostonman on August 19, 2024, 01:23:40 pmAre you saying that the retention force of the contact was enough to let a firm yank pull the wire out of the crimp? As in, the contact retention force was higher than the pull-out strength of the crimp? If so, then that means the crimp was nowhere close to properly done. That’s not just not in the ballpark, it’s not even the right city!Quote from: bostonman on August 19, 2024, 01:23:40 pmHuh? Are you talking about the mating surfaces of the contacts, or about the crimped contact-to-wire interface?Corrosion of the mating surfaces depends on the application, contact plating, environment, and contact design.A proper crimp is gastight, so there is absolutely no movement of the wire relative to the contact. If the wire is wiggling within the crimp, then it’s not just not in the ballpark of crimp force, it’s not even in the right country!A crimp connector that is properly selected for the application, with correct wire and tooling selected, assembled to manufacturer specs, should not become intermittent.Corrosion within the crimp itself means it wasn’t gastight, which also means crimp force was too low.Quote from: bostonman on August 19, 2024, 01:23:40 pmI mean, gold embrittlement in solder is a real thing, but only relevant if you were actually finding fractured solder joints.Mixing contact platings (of the mating surfaces) is a big no-no, at least with respect to gold and tin.It really doesn’t sound like that company did connectors properly, to be frank!Quote from: bostonman on August 19, 2024, 01:23:40 pmOnly a really poor crimp is improved by adding solder. A good crimp is worsened by doing so.

author: mtwieg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 12:11:57 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 19, 2024, 06:33:47 pmHere's what NEW wire says:So 94% vast majority of the wire they deal in is meant to be tinned using solder pot. 5% can't be stripped using solder pot, but are still intended to be soldered after stripping. Only 1% is truly non-solderable, though info on this is really scarce. The example shown in the video has fairly large strands, and few of them. The litz wire I work with as hundreds of very fine strands (40AWG at least). While I haven't seen any vendor categorically state that such wire can't be terminated without solder, I think it's clear that that's their intended process.QuoteRight, that's the "normal" process.QuoteYeah, it does sound pretty sketchy. The last step should be soldering, in order to relieve stresses and "heal" cracks. Hence my speculation that crimping to the insulated wire and then soldering just once might be a viable process.

author: bostonman
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 02:21:29 pm
content: QuoteYes, I was talking about corrosion on contact-to-wire.In most cases, usually I'd ask someone in manufacturing which tool to use. In the case of the company that used Anderson connectors, I don't remember if we even had a tool or just crimped with something else. That company hacked everything they touched.It was rare my crimps every came out correctly. The wire would birdcage, one strand of wire wouldn't be in, the pin would bend, the pin would be weak and bend as I tried inserting it into the connector, etc...Maybe I was given the wrong tool, maybe wasn't doing it correctly, etc...On a side note, slightly different, but just recently I was repairing something with a ribbon cable and the ribbon cable became intermittent over time causing the display to not work. Last year I had a ribbon cable fail in my oscilloscope (to the hard drive).

author: JohnG
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 20, 2024, 07:11:28 pm
content: Quote from: mtwieg on August 18, 2024, 04:50:05 pmUhhhhgg, Litz... I wish it were avoidable...John

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2024, 09:08:53 am
content: Quote from: bostonman on August 20, 2024, 02:21:29 pmThe proper tooling, used according to the instructions, makes it quite hard to mess up a crimp. The things you describe (inconsistency, pins that easily break) sound like you didn’t have the right tooling at all.One way to reduce birdcaging is to use sharp cable shears to cut wire instead of diagonal cutters or anything dull. Diagonal cutters tend to disturb the stranding far more than shears. Since switching to shears, I’ve found it much easier to crimp without wayward strands.Quote from: bostonman on August 20, 2024, 02:21:29 pmNot unheard of, but still fairly unusual. Unless you’ve been pulling out the cables by tugging on the cable itself, of course! (Especially bad if the connectors don’t have strain reliefs installed.)With the display cable, another possibility is that it was a ribbon cable with solid conductors. IDC contacts with solid conductors (including IDC ribbon connectors and punchdown terminals in telecom) are really not good for repeated flexing.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2024, 10:22:21 am
content: Quote from: tooki on August 26, 2024, 09:08:53 amFor the visually oriented persons amongst us:

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 26, 2024, 11:35:17 am
content: Quote from: mtwieg on August 19, 2024, 11:42:48 amHah. At least for smaller (pin-sized) litz, I've seen shops just dip the loose end in the pot -- tin the wire, then shove it into the board for a second (and final) soldering step. Avoid fraying the strands (or I suppose wrap them with a fine strand before dipping) and it works out fine. Needs a relatively large PTH of course, since some fraying is inevitable. Usually it's done as part of a lead frame operation: like mounting the e.g. transformer on a mounting base (sheet of FR-4 with holes drilled in it), with blobs of gel epoxy to secure wires on it. Also an alternative to pinned bobbins, just take the wires out and shove them through holes separately.Ferrules should be fine, give or take if they're nickel plated I guess, heh. Disappointed NEWT didn't have anything to say about it. (I forget if we asked them about ferrules back in the day..)Would imagine the crimp wire-in-board terminal thingys would do well enough too; I don't know that I would trust those to tin through (clearing out the enamel) if using litz with a fairly ordinary wave soldering process, but if you can spend some time "soaking" them, that would still be fine. (Customized selective solder, perhaps? Run the wave slower, if everything else is fine with it?) Pre-tinning of course does nothing, as you'd glom up the snap-in clip parts and not be able to assemble them in the board, or at least any better than as ferrules.----At PPoE, we did industrial (up to sausage-sized) cables by crimping, dribbling in some liquid rosin, then dipping the whole lug, usually with a clean-up step blasting off dross / rough solder with a sanding disc. Not exactly ideal, but I'm not aware of any that came back to the service department with charred lugs. (Granted, that might only be a 1/1000s failure rate, hardly exemplary as industrial production is concerned.)Regarding solder vs. crimp, my understanding is, the crimp has to pinch and stretch -- specifically, not just crush, but to hold in compression, necking down and thus squeezing the strands out lengthwise just a little bit, and the strands spring back against that force, acting to push them back into the crimp, sealing it tight. It isn't, and doesn't have to be, a cold weld; in fact the strands can move in the crimp, it's not necessarily a problem for the lug and wire to have mismatched thermal expansion for example (but, probably not a good thing if they are very different, lol).Thus, if we make a very loose crimp (that isn't actually holding tension against the strands), it's better to fill it with solder, because it's not a gas-tight joint, and the solder will make the bond, like a tight-fitting solder pot. There's nothing wrong with solder pot terminals, in and of themselves. We have a soldered joint, and all the limitations thereof (creep, fatigue, corrosion). If you have terminals but no crimper, you can still do them with pliers and a soldering iron in this way -- badly, but you can likely make something that fits wires into a housing, and maybe that's good enough in a pinch.If we fill a proper crimp with solder, we get the worst of both worlds: the fatigue and creep and corrosion of a soldered joint, without the natural movement (potentially) of the crimp joint; the soldering heat may also relieve some of the stress in the crimp joint, or by melting tin plating (when applicable), change the volume in the crimp, and thus the stress in a more exaggerated manner.So that's why you don't crimp AND solder.Then, what about litz? It's enameled, so there's a three-layer mix in the crimp cross-section: the barrel around the outside, then the matrix of copper and enamel. This will crimp just fine when cold, but when heated, the enamel breaks down and flows out, relieving stress. Whether that's bad, depends on how much is relieved: it seems to be enough to fill with solder, but, I mean obviously it's a solder wick, that's not saying a whole lot; possibly it's enough that strands could in fact come loose, but I can't say I've ever extracted strands from a terminal while the solder is molten. But that might also simply be because the strands are stuffed in there with enough congestion that they can't really pull outIt could also be that not enough stress is relieved by melting the enamel, to loosen it. We're not talking much strain here (<1%?), but a fair amount of enamel (several percent by diameter?), so I doubt this is the case. It seems plausible in the tin-plating case though.But, I think for most applications, they're just not strenuous enough to be a problem: the soldered joint, the vast strand count, and the fact that the cable some inches behind the terminal remains stiff (from the enamel melting together), accounts for most of the strain relief, plus a generous layer of heatshrink does a bit more; and applications may simply be well enough secured, or low vibration, or clean environment, that the stress response (creep/fatigue) and corrosion concerns just don't manifest. Basically, you aren't usually running litz cables around for general cabling use, they're mostly at the terminals of a component and there's no slack length to couple vibration and handling into heavy flexing. The situation might be suboptimal in a broader sense, but further optimization may not even be perceptible (in terms of production yield and product quality/reliability).You definitely don't want to tin AND THEN crimp, as the tinned end will have a substantial fraction of solder inside it, and the whole thing will mush down, getting severely strained and fatigued, while not holding nearly as much springback force as the crimp needs to be sealed against. The cracked, loose mass may be mechanically pinned (you can't yank it out, maybe even without breaking the wire), but it will be far more susceptible to fatigue and corrosion. This can be cured (or, probably not completely, but partially perhaps) by remelting the joint after crimping: apply flux, then heat it up; there may be enough excess solder to make a reasonable solder-pot joint, but probably some extra should be added to get a nice fillet. Plating around the lug ring can be unaffected (or at least, not blobbed up; usually the plating does change on heating, oxidizing or thickening the intermetallic layer), so it bolts down as good as new.Tim

author: mtwieg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 01:33:06 pm
content: Thanks for the input, overall agree with everything.Ultimately the bottom line for litz wire is that soldering always has to follow crimping (except if you managed to strip the strands without soldering, which is very rarely the case). For larger ring/spade terminals, crimping before tinning should work, possibly even better than tin > crimp > solder for the reasons you mentioned. In my experience, so long as the litz is cut carefully and it's tinned properly by dipping in a solder pot, strands are not disturbed at all; the result looks like you tinned solid wire of the same diameter. But if the strands get frayed (hard to avoid if you tin it with a soldering iron) then that you will end up with a "fat tip" end which is mostly solder, which can make crimping problematic or impossible. Standard approach to that is to just cut the "fat tip" off, but that means you have to tin more wire, burn more insulation, etc...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 02:14:23 pm
content: Quote from: mtwieg on August 31, 2024, 01:33:06 pmI definitely don’t agree with this conclusion.Chemical stripping, burning off the insulation in a flame, and hot crimping (where the entire crimp is heated during crimping) are all established methods. I don’t see how trying to tin with solder after crimping would work.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 02:16:38 pm
content: Quote from: mtwieg on August 19, 2024, 11:42:48 amI just found this article which says that hot crimping is good down to a single 30AWG strand:https://www.assemblymag.com/articles/89954-hot-crimping-for-joining-magnet-wiresI don’t see any reason why it wouldn’t work with Litz wire composed of 40AWG strands, as long as the total cross-section is at least 30AWG.

author: T3sl4co1l
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 03:06:33 pm
content: Boy, up to 700°C as well? That surely will "forge weld" (diffusion bond) the joint together -- assuming the charred crud gets out of the way (hah, which would dissolve if it were done on iron, but copper, no chance). Probably the ramping of pressure and heat at the same time, allows the enamel to melt and largely squeeze away before bonding occurs, and then the crud trapped in the corners doesn't matter too much.It should very well be able to produce metallurgically welded joints though. Strain is relieved at that temperature, so there's no tension holding it together; should be able to cut completely through it and not have it fall to bits like a cold crimp would.Quote from: tooki on August 31, 2024, 02:14:23 pmWell, "rare" is in the eye of the beholder. Or the statistician, but no one's claiming statistical data here, so any terms of probability are very loosey-goosey neither-here-nor-there statements of opinion, not fact.I can say from my experience, chemical stripping has always been met with cringes from anyone who'd have to work with it -- it's slow, messy, toxic, needs chemical storage and handling practices, probably the chemicals aren't cheap either, etc. etc.I've done it myself, but only as a last resort, and only on small scales -- in particular, I have a few spools of this old (true) enameled wire, that you can only scrape off, it carbonizes on heating, utterly unsolderable. Whenever I go to use it for litz, it's.... ugh. My most common solution is to melt the end into molten NaOH + KNO3, which tends to burn off and dissolve the enamel and copper oxides, leaving a bright pink surface that is tinnable. It's hazardous (molten salts are prone to splattering, and youdon't want alkali on your skinlet alone more sensitive areas, like a droplet of melt might cost an entire eye), not easy to use, not terribly effective anyway (a better mix, apparatus to melt it in, and procedure, would be fast and effective though), and the conducted heat leaves several inches of cable charred and questionable.It might be "common" in certain fields (aerospace? winding shops?), but whether that counts as "common" across all of industry, no idea.As for burning in flame, complete no-go, leaves burnt crud, carbon and copper oxides all around. Maybe you can scrunch that around, maybe clean it up with some solvents (even if just to get the crud loosened and washed out), but I wouldn't want to rely on a crimp with all that crap involved. Or maybe there are specific enamels that burn off cleaner than others, but again, are we talking common off-the-shelf stuff here or what, and what are your statistics to support that, etc....Now I kinda want to try hot crimping myself. Don't quite think it's going to be as simple as putting a tool and die inside an induction field though...Quote from: mtwieg on August 31, 2024, 01:33:06 pmRegarding soldering, I've found it effective to twist the cable while molten, pinched between the iron and work table. You can get it to twist together a bit, and this tightens the bundle and squeezes out some solder. Tedious hand operation, but maybe of interest for one-offs. (Be careful not to splatter as the wire inevitably slips and bounces as it's twisted and squashed under the iron, and as you lift and reposition it!)Tim

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 03:35:37 pm
content: The best process in the world is still not a good process if it has to be executed flawlessly, or if it can only be executed well enough by someone who does it all day/every day, or if it can only be executed well enough with a $500+ tool that I don't have.That's why I still favor soldering over crimping in most cases. Yes, crimping is better. No, I don't crimp enough connectors to ever become genuinely good at it. And I've got somereallybad news for those who assume it will always be done properly in a factory or other professional environment.With PowerPole connectors in particular, the spring tension is both critical and hard to inspect. I use a lot of them, but I'll never be as big a fan of them as some people are. Crimping is 99% reliable at best, and soldering is no better because (again) it's all about the springs.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 04:25:36 pm
content: Crimping is highly reliable, well over 99%, if done with the right tooling and according to directions!With the right tools, it takes essentially no practice whatsoever to produce perfect crimps. If one's crimp process is significantly subject to operator experience, there is somethingdeeplyflawed with the process!If you properly match the wire, contact, and tool, and follow the instructions properly (e.g. correct strip length), using the correct first-party tool, then a perfect crimp is practically guaranteed. That's why crimping is actually considered a lower-skill assembly method than soldering.The problems people run into are that they're mucking around with bad tools, and without any care to matching wire size to the contacts. It's not a process you can just eyeball. It can be done anywhere, as long as you have the right tool, it certainly isn't limited to a factory! (OK, I wouldn't want to crimp contacts for a 1mm pitch connector while riding a city bus.)I don't entirely disagree with your statement that a process is not good if it demands flawless execution -- rather, it's just a factor that speaks against a process. But in a sense, every process demands skillsomewhere, it's just a question ofwhere. Crimping puts the skill in the tool and contact designers and manufacturers; soldering puts it largely in the operator.I don't think, however, that a process can be called "bad" just because it requires proper tooling for success. By that criterion, most processes are "bad", and many would be "horrifically, unspeakably awful", like semiconductor production, which requiresbillionsof dollars of tooling.What I just disagree with is people saying "crimping is unreliable" as a blanket statement, when in fact it's only unreliable when done with janky tools.Spring tension? I don't think any crimp tool in existence relies on actual spring tension to adjust the crimp force. Springs are used in the mechanism, but as far as I know, the actual force adjustment is some kind of limiter or end stop that you move. The springs are just there to return the tool to the open position and to hold some other parts in place.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 04:38:27 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 31, 2024, 04:25:36 pmI'd make the opposite argument. I was a natural at soldering the minute I picked up an iron as a child, but I still have to read the instructions and practice every time I need to crimp something smaller or more delicate than a PowerPoint connector.QuoteI'm talking about PowerPole connectors specifically here, where hidden springs are used to maintain contact between the mated terminals:Guess why I felt compelled to X-ray that one...

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 04:59:43 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on August 31, 2024, 04:38:27 pmWell, I didn't saytraining, I saidskill. If you were a natural at soldering even as a kid, then you acquired the necessary skill on your own, but the upshot is that you possess the skill. Some people can go through training and still not acquire it.And some people actuallydon'thave the skill, butthinkthey do, and send out crappy solder joints.As for needing to practice: that applies to soldering, too! It's perfectly normal to have to get a feel for a particular solder joint in a device, like when soldering ICs and figuring out that certain pins need to be heated longer because they're connected to a ground plane on the other side of the board. The difference is that in soldering, you can in essence experiment with a joint while doing it, so that even your trial joints are part of the finished product. In crimping, you cannot rework a joint.But as I said, with the right tools, crimping doesn't even really need practicing. The project I did recently with the 100 Micro-Fit contacts was my first time using the tool, and I did a few test crimps, but I actually didn't really need to; every single one came out flawless. I had to spend time adjusting my wire strippers to the precise strip length needed (since I needed a length between two depth stop detents), but that isn't unique to crimping. Soldering also requires the right strip length for the job.Quote from: KE5FX on August 31, 2024, 04:38:27 pmOh OK, I didn't realize you were talking about the connector itself.But what does that have to do with crimp vs solder? In PowerPole, both crimped and soldered contacts use the identical housings, so whatever the effects of the spring, they aren't specific to the termination method.This critique is 100% about the connector design, and not about crimping vs. soldering.Quote from: KE5FX on August 31, 2024, 04:38:27 pmI dunno. The wire on the right seems to be kinda wonky, maybe from being flexed?What's the answer?

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 05:44:48 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on August 31, 2024, 04:59:43 pmThe contact is OK as long as the connectors are in line with each other, but the spring tension wasn't high enough to keep them together when the connection is flexed a bit. It's easy to see how that can happen given the ample amount of free space.The same thing can happen regardless of whether it's crimped or soldered, so it's not useful as a way of arguing for either method. But since the subject of PowerPole connectors was raised as a possible answer to the OP's question, it's potentially relevant.One user error thatispresent is the fact that both leads extend past the crimping areas far enough to touch the shells. That tends to constrain the ability of the contacts to follow the spring forces to some extent. I didn't know to watch out for that until I took the X-ray.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: August 31, 2024, 08:21:30 pm
content: Quote from: KE5FX on August 31, 2024, 05:44:48 pmWell no, actually they weren't. They were discussed tangentially only. OP was not asking for alternatives to Faston-style terminals, only for brand recommendations of such terminals.Quote from: KE5FX on August 31, 2024, 05:44:48 pmWere the contacts in the x-rays the open or closed barrel type? If they're closed barrel, which is what those look like from the silhouette, then that's not the conductor "brush" sticking out, but just the end of the contact. See the photos of both styles inhttps://powerwerx.com/help/powerpole-assembly-instructionsandhttps://www.qsl.net/lcares/manuals_files/Powerpole-Rev0.pdfFWIW, the instructions say to strip 5/16" (7.9mm):https://www.andersonpower.com/content/dam/app/ecommerce/product-pdfs/PP-Pak/1s1112.pdf