Calculator recommendation? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: baoshi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 02:05:25 pm
content: Hi,For my coming birthday, my parents want to buy me a gift. They asked me to name itOtherwise they'll buy me a TV that I absolutely have no room to put.And it happened to me that my old trustworthy Casio FX-100 is half dead, so I'm thinking of a calculator. I need something that:1. Durable. I'm expecting 20+ years service from it so my parents will be glad that it is really useful to me.2. Price-wise between $80-$200, not too cheap or too expensive, sounds like a serious gift.3. Function-wise I'm doing a lot of programming and engineering (electronics) calculation. A scientific calculator with BIN/HEX is a must (which FX-100 don't have). I'm not a fan of RPN.Any suggestions?ThanksBob

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 02:09:43 pm
content: Quote from: baoshi on June 21, 2013, 02:05:25 pmAbacus?Sorry, HP fanboy here

author: baoshi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 02:43:55 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on June 21, 2013, 02:09:43 pmHaha, I learned to use abacus many years ago. Spent one month just to exercise adding from 1 to 100

author: lgbeno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 02:44:19 pm
content: Ti89 is my goto calcThe things that I really like about it are the advanced math functions/solvers, it can do some symbolic simplifications and most importantly, it formats your formulas into a proper mathematical notation. That way you can make sure that the formula will be evaluated in the right ooo.Also in your price range and fits in your pocket.

author: Jay_Diddy_B
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 02:52:57 pm
content: Hi,If you want to try a RPN calculator I highly recommend this:This HP41C calculator is great !!I use the real ones in the lab, but I use the emulation on my PC.You quickly get the hang of RPN.Jay_Diddy_B

author: millerb
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 02:55:22 pm
content: Quote from: lgbeno on June 21, 2013, 02:44:19 pmSure it does lots of stuff, but it's a complete pain in the ass to use. It's sat on my shelf for years collecting dust. For quick stuff here and there I use an HP 33s and a ti 84. The moment I have to start juggling equations I just use the computer. Much more convenient to keep stuff in Mathematica notebooks.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 03:23:29 pm
content: Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on June 21, 2013, 02:52:57 pmThere is a downside. Have you seen someone who regularly uses RPN calculators attempt to use a traditional one? It's hilarious. (I know, I've tried.) I'm so incredibly useless at them now. If I have to use a traditional calculator, I usually end up working out most of the math on paper and using the calculator for difficult divisions, square roots and such.So yeah, go ahead and try RPN, if you plan to always surround yourself with RPN calculators for the rest of your life...OT aside: From what I remember in high school, calculators often ended up being used in a pseudo-RPN way anyway. Nobody typed out expressions into them unless copying them from a textbook. Otherwise, it looked more like 2 + 2 enter, * 6 enter, / 8 enter... That's practically RPN. Just give me swap, roll and delete and I'd be right at home.

author: lgbeno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 03:55:25 pm
content: Quote from: millerb on June 21, 2013, 02:55:22 pmYou're right for really simple stuff I just use windows calc or the one on my phone. Mathematica or mathcad are nice for really complex stuff.I guess I was thinking back to college when all I had was my TI89, still love it. I don't know how it is any more difficult to use than a ti84 but that's ok, to each their own.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 04:09:16 pm
content: Get a HP35sIt's got BIN OCT DEC HEX modes and conversions etc..And can be used in Algebraic or RPN mode, so you can learn RPM later if you choose (it really is better once you get used to it)http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/pscmisc/vac/us/product_pdfs/HP_35s_calculator_datasheet.pdf

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 04:28:05 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on June 21, 2013, 04:09:16 pmI only have one complaint about that calculator. It's not cheap enough that I can own 50 of them

author: baoshi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 04:35:38 pm
content: Quote from: lgbeno on June 21, 2013, 02:44:19 pmThanks. I Downloaded a Ti89 emulator to try. Have been trying to figure out how to do dec-hex conversion and it took me 10 over minutes plus several google search to accomplish. I'm going to watch some video reviews before make a decision. But first impression is it is not intuitive to useIf I can find something like iPhone app "pcalc" I will be very happy.

author: lgbeno
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 05:22:10 pm
content: Yeah it's buried you can find it either by pressing the catalog button which contains all functions or math>base menu.I guess the pus side would be that you can do mixed base math without much hassle like say you want to type 0hAF+7 and you'll get 182 which you could do >hex and it will spit out 0hB6. Unfortunately not dedicated buttons for such things...

author: Galaxyrise
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 05:43:45 pm
content: I do a lot of programming, but I've never wanted a physical calculator to do the conversions. It's been much more convenient for me to use Windows calc, and I can copy and paste. There's some nice electronic test gear in your price range, though...

author: Dave
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 05:50:42 pm
content: I think TI Nspire CX CAS is unbeatable for engineering. It's capable of solving pretty much any mathematical equation you can think of.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 06:46:04 pm
content: I recommend you the Casio FX-5800P. I use it since September 2009. Casio works for many years.EDIT: OK, it was introduced in 2006.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2013, 06:54:00 pm
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on June 21, 2013, 06:46:04 pmThis HP fanboy will comfortably recommend a Casio any day. They're very good calculators.

author: baoshi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 01:52:18 am
content: Quote from: Galaxyrise on June 21, 2013, 05:43:45 pmAgree. A basic scientific calculator will do. The rest of the job can leave to the free Microsoft Mathematics, much easier to operate with a real keyboard.Nice electronic test gear within $200? Currently I have a Rigol DS1052E, a Agilent U1241B DMM and a Taiwan "APPA" brand DMM, some USB gears like Saleae and Segger J-link, PicKit, AVR JTagICE. Anymore?

author: Harvs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 02:12:02 am
content: I note no-one yet has brought up the question of whether you are, or considering on doing any study that requires a calculator. This can have a large bearing on what is acceptable (i.e. what's allowed by the institution), and what will be most useful to you.e.g. In course I'm currently doing my calculator would be pointless unless it can invert 5x5 matrices of complex numbers, yet a lot of the more recent calculator aren't allowed (fortunately my old TI89 is.) A few of my fellow postgrad students have been caught out by these requirements, and it's meant they've had to become familiar with a new calculator for the course, which is time consuming.

author: TimNJ
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 02:16:30 am
content: TIi-36X PRO is a great calculator. Lots of functionality but very straight forward to use.Might want to consider one of the non-color TI-nSpire calculators, like this one:http://www.amazon.com/Texas-Instruments-N2CAS-CLM-2L1/dp/B003EK7O1G/ref=pd_sim_e_3I'm highly considering getting one.Not a TI fanboy at all, but I do think they make some very good calculators.

author: baoshi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 02:20:02 am
content: Quote from: Harvs on June 22, 2013, 02:12:02 amSorry I should have mentioned in the first place. I'll be use this at home so no restrictions.Having a physical calculator is mainly for convenience so that I do not need to turn on the computer or switch windows to find the calculator program. My fat finger does not compatible with any smartphone calculator either.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 03:38:23 am
content: I used to love calculators when I was young, and I have bought a load of them for the nostalgia value. Sadly, they tend to lie around unused these days. There is just nothing a computer or a smartphone doesn't do better.If I were to use a calculator, however, then I think something like an HP35s would stand the test of time. (Says me, looking at my poor lonely HP35s that has been sitting lost and forgotten in a drawer since I bought it)

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 04:06:02 am
content: I have a recent HP 35s which is great for engineering calculations, but they totally messed up the hex/bin support. Conversion takes several key strokes and you need to convert back to decimal to do any arithmetic.The best hex calculator ever made was the HP 16C. It supports all types of boolean math, shifts, rotates, etc. Except that it does not support regular engineering functions and they have stopped making it decades ago.If you're in school, look for something that you can use for your homework and exams. There are nice graphic calculators from HP, TI, and Casio, but make sure you'd be allowed to use it on your exams. Once you get very used to using one calculator, it's very difficult and error prone to switch.

author: baoshi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 05:23:07 am
content: Quote from: fpga on June 22, 2013, 04:06:02 amTried. Right. Very complicated.

author: Harvs
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 05:53:11 am
content: Quote from: baoshi on June 22, 2013, 02:20:02 amIn that case IMO it's simply not worth spending anywhere near $200 on a calculator. Where these $200 graphical calculators earn their money is when you're in an exam (i.e. no access to a PC) and you need to deal with formulas and complex calculations that would otherwise waste time and precious brain power that is better spent being applied to the real problems that you're being assessed on.If you're at home in the lab, then PC based programs are much easier for complex calculations.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2013, 06:15:58 am
content: All the new Casio's have VPAM, whcih works differently to your old pure algebraic one. And it's pretty annoying IMO.A nice (old) electronics Casio FX-61F is nice pure algebraic calc, but pretty rare to get these days.The only calc ever to have electronics specific keys!

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 12:05:19 am
content: http://education.ti.com/en/us/products/calculators/scientific-calculators/ti-36x-pro/tabs/overviewToo small display IMHO. The FX-5800P is better. And it has some programming.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 12:14:48 am
content: Well, this colorCasio FX-CG10calculator looks sexy, but I will never buy it. I can use Matlab instead...In Czech Republic, we don't use graphic calculators at all. But no, we are not a non-developed country. My schoolmates have expensive smartphones, notebooks and mobile phones...

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 12:19:50 am
content: Well, I prefer calculators (with monochrome display), that run on AAA batteries for 6 months or even much more. I am not gonna recharge my calculator like a mobile phone.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 12:51:26 am
content: My TI89 Titanium lasts a very long time between charges as long as I use the low self discharge NiMHs. They still have a tendency to run out when least expected so I added a built in charger that simply charges from the USB. Graphing is quite slow so that's the tradeoff for optimizing for good battery life. (And if you're thinking of overclocking it, you can't or at least I haven't figured out a way.)https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/teardown-ti-89-titanium/

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 03:47:26 am
content: Do people ever do any serious graphing with their calculators? Really?Oh all the current calculators, I'd say the HP-35S is convenient, with a good user interface, decent keys, the batteries last for ages and it does all the stuff you'd use a calculator for rather than a computer. spend the money you save on a graphing calculator on something likehttp://www.alsoftiphone.com/i41CXplus/

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 04:04:10 am
content: Quote from: Zad on June 23, 2013, 03:47:26 amPersonally - the last time I used the graphing feature on a calculator, I was a junior in high school. I was playing around with the new school-provided TI-84+ to see how it worked. Haven't used it since, and I spent a few years as a math major and another couple so far in engineering. This includes the fact that until I lost it in the physics lab, my baby was a brand new HP 50G with lots of graphing features including 3D. (Yeah, I'd make a bad father.)

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 04:09:31 am
content: Quote from: fpga on June 22, 2013, 04:06:02 amYou can do arithmetic in other bases but you have to say what base your entering or it assumes base10.eg,1000 <blue shift> <base> <8key> (will show 1000b)<+>1 <blue shift> <base> <8key> (will show 1b)<enter>Answer you get as either 9 or 1001b depending on if you have the calc in binary or decimal mode etc..I agree though, it's not really ideal.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 11:56:07 am
content: Win7 came with a great free calculator, including a full programmer's one with hex, dec, oct, bin, and multiple word length calculations. I ported it to run on my other boxes: Vista 64, 32.Today, I find calculators are only good if you are working in the lab on hardware, brainstorming on paper, cross checking the computer, the spreadsheet script, or without a computer. Once you get the numbers down, you'll end up transferring the data to your PC for further analysis, so you can't do anything elaborate otherwise you'll duplicate your work. So I use it only for approximation. I use the $9 solar power FX260, which I have 3 and just leave it all over my workplace and home. I also use Real Calc on Android quite a bit, when I'm not within arm's reach of the Casios.For programming, as you need a computer to program, I use the Win7 calculator since whatever you calculate say in hex, can easily be ported and tested in code if its on the PC already.

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 12:01:46 pm
content: I hate the windows 7 calculator but I can't remember why exactly. I think it had something to do with not being able to enter decimals when in programmers mode.I always deleted the win7 calc exe and replaced it with the XP version everytime i install win7

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 03:03:52 pm
content: I recommend Casio calculators as well. They also keep up when typing with two fingers. The HP calculators I've come across so far can't.I have an FX-4500P which is close to 20 years old and still going strong. My newer calculator is an FX-115MS which is about 10 years old. Both have the SI prefix symbols so calculating the RC time of a 10k resistor and a 10uf capacitor becomes 10k*10u<EXE>. It saves a lot of typing. Both calculators can do hex/dec/bin/oct.

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2013, 09:27:39 pm
content: Quote from: Psi on June 23, 2013, 04:09:31 amIt would have been far better if you could set the base you are working in and have all further values entered, calculated, and displayed be in that base until you change the base setting. This is how the HP 16C works and there is not base confusion.Apparently whoever designed the HP 35s had no experience working with other bases such as hex or binary. They figured that entering values in a base other than decimal was an exception rather than a norm. As a result, using hex or bin on the 35s is a great pain and also very error prone.

author: baoshi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2013, 01:54:29 am
content: Wah so many suggestionsThanks everyone.Now I realize what I need is a basic scientific calculator without fancy graphics function.I'm trying to get a FX-61F and if cannot, I'll look at others.One thing I'm not fond of is those with nice backlighted color LCD one. Have you ever seen a color LCD device lasts 10+ years without degrading?

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2013, 02:30:34 am
content: Quote from: fpga on June 23, 2013, 09:27:39 pmYeah, I totally agree.Perhaps with an extra "base10 override" button you can press to momentary display the active value in decimal, or enter the next value as a decimal.That way you can be in BIN/HEX/OCT mode and everything works in BIN/HEX/OCT but you can still quickly check the base10 value or enter a base10 value as part of an equasion.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2013, 11:31:20 am
content: Quote from: baoshi on June 24, 2013, 01:54:29 amYesterday I took a closer look at theCasio fx-115ESPlusand it really seems to be a very decent calculator. Its base conversion (Bin/Dec/Hex) is pretty straightforward and it may be a good candidate. Although it is a plain LCD screen, I consider the backlight a plus for clarity.In my experience I have the TI89 (a gift) and the HP48GX (a replacement of my HP48SX of university years) and I can tell that, at least for base conversion, the HP is much more straightforward (unfortunately it is RPN, so to you this is a disadvantage).

author: tinhead
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2013, 07:52:56 pm
content: gosch ... there was FX-61F on ebay, and i didn't got it :\http://www.ebay.com/itm/281123492106

author: uoficowboy
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2013, 11:10:00 pm
content: I can't imagine using any calculator other than a TI-89. The solve and calculus functions are instrumental and save me tons of time. I don't use it for graphing too frequently. I also have a TI-89 emulator on my Android phone so I am never too far from a TI-89! Mine is ~12 years old and still running strong. I have to swap batteries in it maybe once a year.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2013, 11:30:27 pm
content: Quote from: tinhead on June 27, 2013, 07:52:56 pmWow, commanding high prices now it seems.

author: jvdb
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 02:35:27 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 27, 2013, 11:30:27 pmI bought an HP 42S from a classmate years ago when he upgraded to an HP 48. It's crazy what some old calculators go for on eBay.http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-42S-Scientific-Calculator-Excellent-Condition-with-BOX-Manual-and-Case-/141003041261?pt=Calculators&hash=item20d46fa9ed

author: Bloch
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2013, 05:32:20 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on June 23, 2013, 11:56:07 amI use mostly Google. Well i use Google Chrome so i can use the address bar256 in hex0xff in decimal0b11 in decimal0b11 in hexsqrt(50/pi)

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2013, 09:26:11 am
content: You can also do math in binary or hex or a combinationeg, google..0b10 + 0b01 (returns 0b11)0xFF + 0x01 (returns 0x100)10 + 5 in binary (returns 0b1111)

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2013, 09:45:34 am
content: I wouldn't be without my Casio FX-115MS, for one reason: it understands, displays and uses engineering notation for orders of magnitude.There's no counting powers of 10 and having to work out what component I really need if it says an answer is 2.2E-10. Put it in ENG it'll show that same answer as 220p.I couldn't contemplate going back to a calculator that makes me use the EXP button all the time. In electronics we work with values such as resistors in kOhms, capacitors in uF and time intervals in ns. We don't buy a 4.7E3 Ohm resistor and connect it to a 4.7E-8 Farad capacitor - so why put up with a calculator that can't understand this?

author: baoshi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 11:00:28 am
content: Quote from: tinhead on June 27, 2013, 07:52:56 pmI didn't either. Too expensive. The winner may go for its collection value

author: dfmischler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 08:42:20 pm
content: Quote from: Jay_Diddy_B on June 21, 2013, 02:52:57 pmI recommend you read and understandthisfirst.

author: Hydrawerk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2013, 11:13:25 pm
content: Well, I don't like RPN... I have an old HP RPN calculator from early 1980's.

author: Eight8
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: July 01, 2013, 12:17:03 am
content: I was upset when my FX-61F LCD started to fail.

author: fpga
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2013, 04:27:36 am
content: Quote from: Hydrawerk on June 30, 2013, 11:13:25 pmRPN is addictive. Once you get use to it, there's no going back!

author: AndrejaKo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2013, 12:54:09 pm
content: It's sad to see how little love HP-50g got in this thread. I've been using it since 2007 (I think) and I like it very much. At first, I couldn't even image doing any graphs on it, but doing them turned out to be easier and more convenient than re-learning Matlab and more capable than what Wolfram Alpha offers at the moment. Too bad that its serial port uses that strange connector type.Another thing that had major effect on how I use calculators was my laptop. It has a button next to the numpad which was originally meant to launch some stupid multimedia program. Fortunately it's programmable, so I set it to launch windows calculator instead. That single thing made me actually use the windows calculator in the first place. Now I just press the button and it comes up, as quickly as it takes me to get a dumb calculator to turn on.

author: Aeon
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2013, 08:17:58 pm
content: after I destroyed 3 TI-Calculators which we got in School I bought a Casio fx-991MS That was somewhere around 1999/2000. i still have it. it brought me nice through School and through University.The nice thing about the MS-Version is you can input the shortcuts: k for 10^3, M for 10^6 or m for 10^-3 and so on. As Engineer I use that feature a lot.picture:http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Casio_fx-991MS_scientific_calculator_1aa.jpgThe successor the fx-991ES is missing this feature, like displaying the inputet forumlas in a nice way.http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Casio_fx-991ES_Calculator_New.jpg

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 09, 2013, 08:24:56 pm
content: I got a calculator Casio scientific " Great" now all I need is some one to show me how to turn it on, then how to use it, my 12 & 14 Year old daughters use them but haven't got the patience to show me, are you crying out there yet . I did find my old one they hid on me, so not all is lost.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 09, 2013, 08:25:53 pm
content: Quote from: Aeon on July 09, 2013, 08:17:58 pmYou could try the FX-115MS as I did - they're virtually identical. I have one of each.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 10, 2013, 06:39:49 pm
content: Quote from: AndrejaKo on July 09, 2013, 12:54:09 pmMaybe this is because the original poster mentioned aversion to RPN. In any case, thanks for your comments regarding the 50G; I have a 48G and now I can rest assured to get a nice replacement when it dies.

author: NerdCore
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: July 11, 2013, 02:16:34 pm
content: I bought my fiancé a TI-84+ Silver edition back in 2005 when she started college. I am now using it (8 years later) and will be using it for the next decade (until I finish my masters). I have no complaints and it does everything I want it to. It doesn't have the glam color LCD or any toys inside it. But it's a calculator not a tablet. I want it to make computations not be able to play snake. For the money I paid for it and the longevity I have already gotten out of it. If this one were to fail today, I would buy another without thinking or looking at anything else.

author: AndrejaKo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 12, 2013, 10:53:34 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on July 10, 2013, 06:39:49 pmI'm not sure if people here are aware, but Hp-50g works just fine in modes other than RPN. Just because it has that feature, it doesn't mean that it must be always used. In fact it comes in algebraic modeby default. I remember back when I got it that HP fans considered that a heresy. Relevant link:http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?objectID=c01766748&lang=en&cc=us&taskId=101&contentType=SupportFAQ&prodSeriesId=3235173Anyway, it took me whole 5 minutes to start working with RPN and now I'm looking for a dumb HP calculator with RPN to use on tests. The Casio fx-911ES is quite painful to use., after getting used to RPN

author: Zad
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 04:15:18 am
content: Can you imagine the day a new engineer walks into his new job, opens his briefcase and fetches out that?If you are calculating, use a calculator. If you are data processing, use a computer.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 04:24:59 am
content: That is a clunky computer shoehorned into a calculator enclosure designed simply to make school administrators with too much money write a check for the next big thing. Its functionality that goes beyond that of a normal calculator is too useless and wanky to be of use to a real engineer, and will only serve to give students more shortcuts so we can ensure they never learn anything at all. Its functionality that does not go beyond that of a normal calculator is too much of a pain to get to through the wank features and too expensive. Yet another failure from the TI calculator people.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 11:45:06 am
content: Perhaps but when the going gets though I rather use Excel on a >20" monitor than a small calculator screen. And I suppose there are apps for Android (et al) to turn you phone into a scientific calculator.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 04:17:43 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 16, 2013, 04:24:59 amI am with ErikTheNorwegian on this one; I recall some teachers raged by the fact we had HP 28s and 48s with all its capabilities back in early 90's, and accused us of the same things you mentioned...Power to the calculators!

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 05:15:35 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on July 16, 2013, 04:17:43 pmWe had TI-83 and TI-84 when I was in high school and I assure you, they presented a wonderful roadblock to students actually learning. Nobody would understand a damn thing that they couldn't figure out how to enter into the calculator. Most of the students in my class would have needed to have a go at plotting something containing exbefore they could tell you its curve would be exponential. Numeric intuition was nonexistent. They could hardly imagine the order of magnitude of a simple multiplication without fully computing it and counting the digits. And I don't want to even guess at the amount of time that was wasted trying to teach people how to use them...I can't imagine how much worse it would be if they had HP-48s. Those can even solve their equations for them!

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 05:34:22 pm
content: if I remember correctly, the nspires can do (linear only?) diff eqns as well

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 05:34:52 pm
content: Oh good grief. Is there anything left for the students to do?

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 06:06:42 pm
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on July 16, 2013, 05:52:42 pmMight have to do with the differences of how things are taught though.For example, students in one nation may only be memorizing button sequences, so are lost on the fundamentals, while those in another learn the fundamentals, then use the calculators to help improve their understanding.Just a thought.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 06:09:56 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 16, 2013, 05:34:52 pmFortunately real world math problems go further than just filling in some numbers. The most recent major math problem I had to solve has cost me a ball-point pen and close to 50 sheets of A4 paper. Math software couldn't crunch that problem either... In the end it took insight and a hands on approach which works excellent.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 06:14:33 pm
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on July 16, 2013, 05:52:42 pmNah.... I'd be the same way if I allowed myself to use things like that. They're not stupid, they just don't want to waste their time, and don't really see why they should.QuoteOh, of course there are people who like it. Everybody who needs has a different opinion on what kind of calculator is best; my opinion is that they're shit and useless, but people are going to disagree. I still stand by my criticism that they're bad for school use.Quote from: nctnico on July 16, 2013, 06:09:56 pmRight, and since the math problems in school so frequently do not, the students will be entirely unprepared.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 06:42:23 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on July 16, 2013, 06:06:42 pmYes, it probably is, and for that I agree with c4757p - I somehow was thinking we were talking about university students, but then I realized the education system here in the US is different.Back in Brazil up to high school (inclusive) no calculators could be used in any tests, and this forced us to do math by hand. At the university some teachers quickly realized the capabilities of advanced calculators and had a normal apprehension over the learning experience - one of them even disallowed "alphanumeric calculators"... Over time me and my colleagues showed the teachers this was really a wonderful helper for day-to-day activities (we programmed EE solvers of several types, Bode plots, root locus graphs, etc.)When I was growing up we had a type of calculator that required you to insert the entire expression and gave just a right/wrong answer (green/red LED) and it was really fun to play with. Its name was "professor dismaquinho".

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 06:51:27 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on July 16, 2013, 06:42:23 pmI didn't even think to clarify! Yes, I mean for high school (or whatever else it's called around the world) students. University is different.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 07:11:16 pm
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on July 16, 2013, 06:57:46 pmNo, but I have retained more knowledge of what we were taught than many of us by paying attention in class instead of dicking around with my calculator. If that's arrogant, so be it.

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 07:30:23 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 16, 2013, 07:11:16 pmSo, its not the calculators fault, but the dicking around of the students.. well, we are closing in on the problem here.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 07:32:58 pm
content: No, everyone's going to dick around if you let them. (And no, I'm not saying I wouldn't. I sure as hell did. I only paid more attention to math because I found it interesting, and no, that did not extend to classes I found just as tedious as everyone else.) So don't give them little computers.

author: ErikTheNorwegian
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 08:08:32 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 16, 2013, 07:32:58 pmSo the students have to learn to use calculators after they have graduated,and are ready to start to work?

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 08:19:09 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on July 16, 2013, 07:32:58 pmiPhones you mean?In my opinion the parents' education is way more important than the ubiquity of tools... Unfortunately the number of distractions will only increase over time and only the kids that are taught to use their brains before "crutches" will get more out of school - obviously that others are self-driven, but I have the impression this is not as common. But I digress.

author: Bored@Work
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 08:22:11 pm
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on July 16, 2013, 07:30:23 pmWell, you know something is going wrong if you find words to the effect"allows students to deal with some advanced concepts when they still haven't mastered some basics"in a teacher's paper in support of the introduction of graphic calculators in a school. That sounded awfully like it was all about giving them something to dick around to keep them quiet, not to teach them math. Fortunately my kids weren't attending that school.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 08:25:30 pm
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on July 16, 2013, 08:08:32 pmNo, using the calculator is a separate lesson. You teach them how to use it, but that doesn't mean you allow them to use it during unrelated lessons to solve their algebra. When I was learning to drive, my mother did tell me how to use the cruise control, but no, I was not allowed to use it until I could keep steady speed with just my foot.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 08:59:47 pm
content: In many places studying has become acquiring enough points for the diploma. What makes it worse is that in many countries schools and universities are paid by the number of diplomas they 'produce'. This has lead to a rapid decline in the quality of people's education. I've come across people who couldn't do anything they should be able to do according to their diploma!

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 09:18:25 pm
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on July 16, 2013, 08:39:30 pmWhy exactly do you think that is a bad thing? It's just a damn calculator, it's not like it takes years of study to learn. Separation of tools and concepts is common - they don't teach you how to type in computer science classes.And to be honest, I don't think the sort of people who can't figure out how to use acalculatoron their own are often going to be finding themselves in careers where they need one.QuoteAnd you're free to do that, but it doesn't affect my judgment of its usefulness. The most useless thing will of course still have many people who want it.

author: MasterOfNone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 16, 2013, 10:35:21 pm
content: I purchased a TI-NSPIRE CX CAS calculator about 2 years ago, along with a white board, and I love it. But while I think it’s a great calculator, I don’t think it’s a good programmers calculator. Yes you can enter hex and binary numbers directly and use all the standard logical operates, but displaying the result as a non-decimal number takes too many key strokes for my liking.There’s loads of arguments For and Against using calculator in schools and I don‘t want to go into them.For me it’s about relearning some of the maths I’ve forgotten. But the calculator doesn’t teach me maths, and it doesn’t’ even show me steps I need to perform to solve a problem. But when I am trying to relearn something it does allow me to check if I got it right, or that I’m heading in the right direction. Yes there is a learning curve (its even got a ‘For Dummies Book”), but if you want you use it like a normal calculator and not explore the advance features then yes it’s pretty simple to use.So for my purpose it’s not a bad choice because in my opinion things like Excel and GNU Octave are great with numbers, but not so good if you’re trying to relearn a maths concept and you have no interest in a numerical result. I have also purchased the new IPAD NSPIRE CAS App but haven’t really played with it yet, but I do like the larger easier to read screen.I like the Nspire as training aid but I wouldn’t go and try to convince any of the Matlab guys at work that it’s a great engineering tool, but then again that’s not the market it’s aimed at, however that doesn’t mean it’s not useful for some engineering tasks.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2013, 12:05:25 am
content: If you need a brush-up on math or look something up I can recommend the books 'Modern engineering mathematics' and 'Advanced modern engineering mathematics'. I agree its easy to get some insight in plotting the graphs one way or another.

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2013, 01:06:17 am
content: The usefulness of graphing calculators isn't plotting functions because you don't know that e^x will be some sort of exponential curve. You program in various functions that you use all the time and maybe compare them to each other in real time. So for example, I go down to the manufacturing floor to figure out why some axis on a mechanism is oscillating. Look at the parameters...look at the response...look at the filters. Oh look, there's a resonance at 25HZ. Hmm...let's tweak the filters....I need to see some good response at 30Hz...what if I tweak this and tweak that...what does it look like?Yes, you can just open your notebook and start plugging and chugging, or you can whip open your spreadsheet on the laptop...or go back up to your desk. Or you can just grab the calculator from your pocket, tweak a couple of parameters and get on with it. It has it's uses.

author: MasterOfNone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 17, 2013, 10:00:44 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on July 17, 2013, 12:05:25 amThanks for the book suggestion, those books look really good from the snippets you get on Amazon. But the truth is I don’t really need any more books because I already have a few. I only mentioned the calculator in this thread because I find some of the features useful like the ability to do symbolic maths.Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on July 17, 2013, 07:21:14 amSorry you lost me on that one. Are you saying you use the Vernier input sensors for real engineering work, I’ve never tried any of those probes, are they accurate enough or do you also use a backup measurement device?You seem to be suggesting that to can the grab curve and the results change. But when I read your post to me it sounds like you are saying the behaviour of the circuit also changes, without you manually re-entering the values into the circuit. I can see how you can change the equations/parameters on calculator by grabbing the curve, but I can’t understand how it could change the circuit behaviour. What I’m having a problem understanding is how the calculator can output a signal that can change the circuit behaviour. Did I misunderstand you? do you have to manually enter the values back into your circuit?

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: July 18, 2013, 08:17:50 am
content: It's strange how they class 10 year old calculators as being 'vintage' lolI still use my 'vintage' Casio FX-361 because it's clear and easy and has dec, oct & hex, I just wish it had 10 digit resolution rather than 8.I also have a nice looking Casio FX-85WA, even though it never needs batteries replacing (which is nice) I really don't like this S-V.P.A.M method.The Casio FX-61F looks perfect, wish I had one.

author: MasterOfNone
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: July 18, 2013, 08:01:20 pm
content: Quote from: ErikTheNorwegian on July 18, 2013, 05:42:28 amSorry I’m only posting here (again) because I don’t want someone to read this thread and purchase something that isn’t capable of doing what they believe it can do, because they read this thread.So can you clarify that you use the monochrome version of the TI-Nspire with the LabPro at work, since TI-Nspire CX as mentioned in this thread isn’t compatible with the LabPro. The new TI-Nspires CX range are only compatible with the Lab-Cradle which has better specs but no output. That’s why I was confused when you said you could control your circuit from the calculator.Having looked into this a little now, I believe you need to basically change the Monochrome Nspire into a TI-84 with the keyboard accessory for the LabPro to work.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2013, 12:24:29 pm
content: A calculator and slide rule combo?? OK,thatis awesome. Too bad they couldn't think of a way to really integrate the two (neither can I!)

author: John Coloccia
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: July 19, 2013, 01:35:42 pm
content: I was sold the instant I saw it had Quadrat-TasteANDModernes Skalenbild.