Overview of the Tektronix MSO58 8-Channel 6.25GS/s 2GHz Mixed-Signal Scope - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2017, 04:53:29 pm
content: Here it is guys! The new scope from Tek! Lots of work has gone into designing this instrument:Watch it here: [25 Minutes]http://youtu.be/TkSElXr202I

author: Amazing
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2017, 05:01:20 pm
content: Quote from: Hugoneus on June 06, 2017, 04:53:29 pmThanks! Now we get the real scoop.

author: TheSteve
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 06, 2017, 05:02:41 pm
content: Thanks for the intro - you mentioned you're traveling. I'm guessing to Hawaii...

author: salviador
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2017, 05:06:23 pm
content: Beautiful oscilloscope, perfect!But I have no money to afford it

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2017, 05:12:31 pm
content: that thing is humongousdo you think it could also serve as a fully featured pc (with the windows disk)?i'm thinking stuff like matlab integration, directly program firmware and look at results...I hope you get more time with this scope and do really cool shit because it's had to justify it with the usual low speed bus decode. The first application i thought when i read 8 channel was a DC to 3 phase converter where you monitor all voltages and phases... or complete monitoring of a multi output SMPSsomething in the @blueskull area of expertisevery nice interface.

author: nfmax
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2017, 06:52:41 pm
content: But that great big handle on top - Pooch won't like it!

author: HighVoltage
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2017, 07:19:53 pm
content: Thanks for a great first impression video. It looks really like a great scope.But the font size is definitely to small. May be it is adjustable in the settings.

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 06, 2017, 10:05:31 pm
content: I just got the email add for this... and I'm already 8 posts late... Looks like they ticked all the major boxes this time.Must Review.....

author: jjoonathan
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2017, 12:06:38 am
content: Quote from: nfmax on June 06, 2017, 06:52:41 pmA clear sign of the decline of Tektronix since Danaher bought it. If they can't be bothered to accommodate cat ergonomics, how are we to trust them with our measurements?amidoingitright?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 07, 2017, 12:11:15 am
content: I posted this on the other thread for this scope, so will repeat for those who may not see it:Ok, let's take a look at this and see if it lives up to it's marketing hype.Tek effectively promised this would be a "game changer", and more importantly they pretty much implied that it would be a game changer for the everyday engineer.The big touch screen, the channels, and to a lesser extent (I don't know why they undersold this) the performance.Now, it certainly smashes it out of the park on the performance level, no doubt about it, the new ASIC's are very impressive as is the performance to go along with it, no question. Hats off to Tek for more innovation and huge R&D commitment in this area.The big touch screen and UI (without having used it), ok, it might be bigger and have more pixels than others, so ok, we'll give it that for sure, but I'm sure that R&S and Lecroy will have a lot to say about the UI. And did they say it's the first scope designed from the ground up for touch screen? That's demonstrable BS.But sorry, Lecroy have an Ultra HD external monitor option at (3840 x 2160). So for internal screen it's a winner, but it's not the biggest UI, that award goes to Lecroy.The channels. Unless you absolutely value a huge number of digital channels over everything else, then nope, sorry, it's not a game changer. The Lecroy HDO8000A has 8 analog channels (12 bit) and 16 digital channels. Tek MSO58 has only 6+16. The Lecroy beats it for channel count for most practical purposes.Now, lets get down to crux of it and play real devil's advocate, because it's likely that very few people will, certainly not the Tek guys here plugging it, which they have every reason to do of course, it's an impressive scope and they should be rightly proud of it. But ultimately they don't have to pay for it.So is it a "game changer" for the average engineer?Nope, sorry Tek, you got pipped at the post by Lecroy. The HDO8000A was released 2 months ago (without all the fanfare). Tek have caught up for sure, but it's not a game changing leap. Maybe it is if you need more than 16 digital channels. But let's get real, that niche.But granted, it's a game changer for Tek.But of course it's bloody impressive, if you can afford it. But in many cases it may actually be a very poor choice.Like it or not, price matters. Most engineers who have purchasing and and recommending power at companies do not have infinite budgets, price matters. Often they have an overall project or lab budget and they have to make real value choices.And let's be honest up front, when you buy an expensive multi channel MSO, you want mixed signal and the channels you paid for. 16 digital channels is considered industry standard digital, let's run with that.Let's look at the lowest cost option, the MSO54:$16,200 for the lowest bandwidth 4 channel analog + 16 digital. That's pretty high already, almost putting it out of the reach of most average engineers. But let's say you are swayed by the performance etc.When you use it as an MSO then your expensive MSO scope has turned into a mediocre (in terms of channels) 2+16 channel scope. That sucks. It sucks so bad that's it's likely a show-stopper for many.If I'm buying a general purpose MSO scope for the lab, then I think the MSO54 practically isn't an option, and I suspect I won't be alone in that view.I therefore consider the MSO54 a market failure for anyone but those with specific needs on a reasonable budget.The MSO56 will give you the standard 4+16 channel, but geeze, it's $19,300 for the base 300MHz unit. Very pricey. But ok, if your budget extends to $20k then we are at least playing ball now, you have my consideration. This 6 channel option could be a good seller for them.For general use, the MSO58 you would buy because you want are want a big number of channels. Ok, price usually isn't a huge consideration at this price point, but is it the only choice out there?, is it a "game changer"?Nope, the Lecroy HDO8000A has the full 8 analog channels (12 bit) and the 16 digital channels. Two more valuable analog channels than the Tek. Plus it has external trigger.The Lecroy external screen option at Ultra HD (3840 x 2160) beats the pants off the Tek MSO58 for viewing all that data, no contest if big screen analysis is your thing.So let's compare:- The HDO8000A is $25,800 (+ digital probes I think, don't have pricing). The Tek MSO58 is $21,200 + probes. So yes, base model is more affordable, but again, you sacrifice analog channels for digital.- (Without having used either) The Lecroy Ultra HD external screen support beats the Tek hands down, could be a deal maker there.And I'm sure we can fuss over fine performance details until the cows come home here, but banner specs:- The Lecroy has 8+16+1 external trigger, the Tek only has 6+16. But tek wins if you need >16CH digital.- Both have 12 bit ADC- The Lecroy has up to 250M sample memory/channel, beating the Tek's 125M.- The Lecroy has 10GS/s (on all channels too) beating Tek's 6.25GS/s on all channels.- The Tek can go to 2GHz (with different hardware front end), winner there if you need to bandwidth.- Lecroy digital sample rate is lower at only 1.25GS/s compared to 6.25GS/s on Tek. But probably no major practical difference for everyday use?- Lecroy matches Tek with 125M digital sample memory option.- I'm led to believe the Tek has more flexible digital input voltage range? +/-30V (<200MHz) compared to Lecroy's +/-20V (full bandwidth?). Needs more investigation.So sorry Tek, it's an awesome scope, but it's not a "game changer", you got beaten by several months by Lecroy.And yes, I know your response will be to nit-pick every technical performance detail, and go for it. But the fact is you got beat to market with an 8 channel big touch screen GUI scope, and you have serious competition which in quite a few areas outperforms your new 5 series, some of which you touted as your big game changing features.But no one is talking about the Lecroy HDO8000A, why?, because Tek's marketing is infinitely better, and it's Tek.

author: gslick
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2017, 12:26:53 am
content: LeCroy should send a HDO8000A to Shahriar so he could do a head to head comparison against the MSO58.

author: ebclr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2017, 01:33:15 am
content: I will buy this 5 series Tek scope in 15 years on eBay, If i'm still lived until there I already saved one grand for that.Really wonderful

author: DaJMasta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2017, 02:32:20 am
content: Quote from: ebclr on June 07, 2017, 01:33:15 amI'm in a similar boatIt's good to see some of the resolution and UI performance previously reserved for very high end units to start working their way down, and it's great to see high res converters and more than 4 channels becoming more standard offerings in scopes. "Game changer" gets thrown around a lot (they said that about the MDO too, right?), but I'm glad there's at least something to the descriptor, even if there are others developing similar tech. In fact, it's probably better that Tek aren't the only ones moving in this general direction because they won't be able to just command top dollar for a generation of scopes because of a unique feature or performance and because widespread development of these techs mean some of that will filter down to the lower end for those of us that love useful features but can't buy a scope instead of a car....We'll see. For now, at least it looks nice and seems to work well.

author: velin_r
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 07, 2017, 12:58:04 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 07, 2017, 12:11:15 amWell, if you buy scope only by specs - then yes, probably this Tek is not big deal.If you compare another Tek (MSO4032) and Keysight DSO-X 3012A, you can say that DSO-X is better deal (1Meg wfps, 4GSa/s, responsive interface, cheaper, etc., etc.), but this is not the case. Keysight has many limitations, which actualy makes it sometimes unusable. Two major of them - trigger and measurements. The trigger is unreliable (especially in single and normal mode). Measurements are made only on the screen data, not on the actual acquired one (wtf?). The latter is.... I don't have words for it. I can go on with limitations, but this is not the point.Contrary - the Tek has very reliable trigger and true measurements. It is easier to see runt pulses with advansed trigger than with huge wfps.In this line of thought - combining the new user interface with other advantages from Tek scopes, probably this model will be very usable and worthy for its money. Will see...

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2017, 08:59:18 pm
content: There will be a full review. This is just an introduction.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2017, 09:44:19 pm
content: Quote from: Hugoneus on June 07, 2017, 08:59:18 pmI'd like to see if you can somehow slow it down (decode on long memory, large FFT, etc) to see if it is better than the MDO3000 and MDO4000 series in those areas.

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2017, 09:53:51 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 07, 2017, 09:44:19 pmI can tell you even without a full review that it is not even in the same league.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2017, 10:49:39 pm
content: I expect that butthe proof of the pudding is in the eating. It wouldn't hurt to try and push the limits.

author: Hugoneus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 07, 2017, 10:56:05 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 07, 2017, 10:49:39 pmI assure you that I will.

author: JoHr
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 08, 2017, 06:19:25 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 07, 2017, 12:11:15 amHi Dave,Where have you read this information about the limited logic channels. Actually i couldn´t find it in their data sheet.And they promiss logic probe would be possible on each input.So it would be 8x8 logic channels.If its really limitted to two logic probes that would be a shame.Quote from: EEVblog on June 07, 2017, 12:11:15 amMy fault ... 8x8 Logic Channels as expected.

author: Momchilo
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 10, 2017, 11:43:37 pm
content: Quote from: JoHr on June 08, 2017, 06:19:25 amYes, but the logic channels share the same outputs with the analog channels. With 8x8 logic channels, you would have 0 analog channels, because all 8 channels would be used for the logic probes.

author: BrianH_Tektronix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 12:32:46 am
content: ... most questions have been answered on the other thread. I'll share some highlights, againSo many have loved this scope, its easy to use (new) user interface and more! I think whats been discussed here in the forum is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of features and capabilities.It is the largest built in screen on the market at 15.6 inches and the highest resolution screen at 1920x1080 HD.It is the first 4, 6, 8 combination scope on the market, and it is the only 6 channel model.It's also the first scope that has the flexibility of the FlexChannel input (each input can be 1 analog or 8 digital channels just plug in the right probe), if your project needs up to 8 analog or 8, 16, 24, 32, 40, 48, 56, or 64 digital probes, it can handle all use cases.Its also the first scope at 2GHz and 8 channelsIts also the first scope to have up to 64 digital channelsIt has the highest sample rate (6.25GS/s) on the market for a 8 channel oscilloscope. (interpolation mode = enhanced sample rate, Tek can do 500GS/s)It's also the first scope to have an embedded OS (std) or optional SSD that brings Windows 10It's also the first scope to have 500uV/div (5mV Full scale) as a standard gain setting in its class. Only other scope is the RTO, but you have to purchase their HD option.It's also has the highest waveform capture rate (>500,000 wfms/sec) scope on the market with vertical resolution higher than an 8-bit ADC. (other 10-bit or 12-bit scopes don't specify capture rate and are under 1,000 wfms/sec)It has the highest standard memory at 62.5 Mpts Record length in its classIt has one of the best service plan options, with the Tektronix Total Protection PlanIt comes standard with up to 8 passive probes, where other 8 channel scopes like the HDO8000A comes with 4.It has the highest standard sample rate for digital probes, highest bandwidth and lowest capacitanceIt has the best passive probes on the market, at up to 1GHz, 3.9pF, and no need for that silly compensation adjustment tool. Its all automatically done, and compensation values are stored in a per channel basis. No need to ever compensate that probe on that channel again.Only scope over 4 channels with a hardware built in DVM, AFG, and frequency counter.Only scope on the market with unlimited number of math channels, buses, measurements, and reference inputs (and can load Keysight & LeCroy waveform files)These are just the tip of the iceberg. The details behind all of them are impressive and many are market leading. Glad TheSignalPath, Dave and others can admire a great design when they see one

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 12:54:00 am
content: Quote from: BrianH_Tektronix on June 11, 2017, 12:32:46 amPlease don't put words in other peoples mouths. Dave said a bit more than that.Answering questions and setting the record straight is good but repeatedly cherry picking from their comments is not.and AFAIK Dave hasn't even seen the scope, you never even sent him one, so he has to go off what others said and the spec-sheet?

author: BrianH_Tektronix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 02:06:49 am
content: Quote from: HackedFridgeMagnet on June 11, 2017, 12:54:00 amNo words put in their mouths. Maybe I just like to look on the positive sideSure Dave's giving his honest impression from the details he's read. He's had some good commends and he's had some 'devils advocate' feedback, all is fair game. And people are welcome to both sides. Working at Tek and closely with this scope does lend myself to a wide assortment of product knowledge, so i'm only here to help answer product questions.To stay on the bright side of advocating for the product i'm proud of the positive things he did say..."I like the new scope, you've got to give Tek props for continuing to bring out new designs on what would have been a massive design effort on this one. ""The Tek 5-Series is a great scope""And for the millionth time, I'm not bashing Tek or their awesome new scope.""Don't get me wrong, I think the new Tek is brilliant, but I'm playing practical devil's advocate.""Of course the product is not bad, it's a kick arse scope, I could gush on about all the great stuff for hours."We're still in the process of sending the scope to other bloggers. We do need to have our best interest in mind when it comes to prioritizing the scope being shown to customers or temp lending it to bloggers. And as i've mentioned before, we use a variety of bloggers for different products. Dave's still in our rotation and we enjoy his reviews!

author: HackedFridgeMagnet
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 02:28:57 am
content: Quote from: BrianH_Tektronix on June 11, 2017, 02:06:49 amI looked back at the other thread as I thought you had misquoted there, but you hadn't.So slight overreaction, MyBad. Sorry.And sure a bit of cherry picking is ok.

author: TNorthover
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 02:31:50 am
content: Quote from: BrianH_Tektronix on June 11, 2017, 02:06:49 amYour response to being accused of cherry-picking is even more blatant cherry-picking?

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 02:35:39 am
content: Quote from: BrianH_Tektronix on June 11, 2017, 12:32:46 amThis is a pretty big deal, if it's true that brand-K and brand-L scopes don't offer fast updates at all in scopes of this class. I wasn't aware of that little tidbit when I complained about the separate FastAcq mode earlier.Very impressed with the UI as seen on Shahriar's preview video. It appears responsive, well-thought-out, and innovative without beingtooinnovative. The multiple-OS strategy seems smart as well. It lessens Tek's dependence on a platform run by people who don't have their users' interests at heart.Finally, I disagree with Dave's criticism of the MSO implementation; it seems pretty elegant to me. I use an MSO that can display 16 digital and 4 analog channels concurrently, but historically I've never needed to use them all at once like that. I do agree with Dave that it was lame not to include at least a couple of 8-channel MSO probes, given the instrument's pricing. And I think he's right in that this decision will eventually be revisited.Overall, the new scope lineup is enough of a departure from Tektronix's previous midrange models that I don't think it's unreasonable to call it "game changing." It's a game-changer for them, and by dint of their influence on the industry as a whole, that makes it a game-changer for everybody else. It's the first Tek scope that I've drooled over in a very long time.

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 04:05:39 am
content: Quote from: BrianH_Tektronix on June 11, 2017, 12:32:46 amWith fast acquisition rate enabled what functions and features are disabled or compromised ,ie measurements, memory depth etc ?With fast acquisition disabled what waveform update rate can we expect ?

author: BrianH_Tektronix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 05:18:38 am
content: Quote from: snoopy on June 11, 2017, 04:05:39 amAs mentioned in the previous thread nothing is disabled in FastAcq mode. In fact measurements, buses, and long memory are optionally available. The horizontal model is optimized for speed, so shorter record lengths are on by default and as you scale the horizontal scale the RL doesn't increase as fast. There may be a few things in the architecture happening that i'm not aware about, but i've been able to use search, measurements, adjustable RL, buses, etc.

author: djnz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 06:10:45 am
content: Quote from: BrianH_Tektronix on June 11, 2017, 05:18:38 amIn some previous Tek scopes, FastAcq meant a memory depth of fewer points (I think it was 1k or 10k points). You couldn't use say 10M points and FastAcq at the same time. Has this been improved in the MSO5-series?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 06:24:21 am
content: Quote from: KE5FX on June 11, 2017, 02:35:39 amNo one has yet dared comment on my assertion that the flex channel decision makes the 4 channel scope almost unmarketable.You pay big dollars for a 4 channel MSO and you have to give up two of those to get your standard 16 digital channels. It's a ridiculous compromise that no other scope has.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 07:06:57 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 11, 2017, 06:24:21 amIIRC I wrote something along the lines that most people will likely buy the 6 or 8 channel version anyway. At least I would. If I remember the pricing graphs from the other thread correctly the price differences are relatively small.

author: KE5FX
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 07:10:42 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 11, 2017, 06:24:21 amPut it this way... if they'd marketed it as a DSO with optional digital inputs, instead of an "MSO," it would never have occurred to anyone to complain. They shouldn't sell it as an "MSO" if it can't provide at least some MSO functionality as soon as you open the big cardboard box that says "MSO" on it. Either call it a DSO with an optional MSO upgrade feature, or throw in a couple of digital probes as standard equipment.

author: Deridex
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 07:43:42 am
content: While i think it's a impressive scope, i fail to see the advantage of the flex-channels.I don't see why it's not possible to put a bunch of connectors for the digital-channels at the frontpanel.If i look at the pricetag, then i'm pretty sure that i wont ever have such a scopoe at work.I think it would be awesome if Tek would rework there 500-10000 $-scopes. That would be more reachable for me.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 08:05:51 am
content: Quote from: Deridex on June 11, 2017, 07:43:42 amThey could put the connectors wherever they like, but the digital inputs are sharing the ASIC memory bandwidth and memory depth of the analog channels so making it take the place of the analog input symbolises this choice of analog or digital neatly. If you want more channels then you add more ASICs which is what they offer up to the 8 channel model, it would be worse value to add ASICs dedicated to only analog or digital. I think the prices of the probes (analog and digital) are the bigger issue.

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 09:48:10 am
content: Quote from: BrianH_Tektronix on June 11, 2017, 05:18:38 amSo how would you compare this scope with a Keysight scope with a Megazoom ASIC ? Pros and cons ? I am interested in what other tricks you have up your sleeve

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 09:50:36 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 11, 2017, 06:24:21 amIf you use 3 analog channels and 8 digital channels is that still not a reasonable compromise for this 4 channel scope ? Just a hypothetical. If they throw in the digital probes for nothing then would that change your mind ?

author: Deridex
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 10:03:36 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 11, 2017, 08:05:51 amI'm thinking the same here. Thats another reason why i wonder about the flex-channel.

author: BrianH_Tektronix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 04:07:51 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 11, 2017, 06:24:21 amWait, there are no 2 channel MSO's on the market that provide 2 analog + 16 digital? But the 4 FlexChannel input 5 Series MSO has 4 analog or up to 32 digital (providing the standard scope usage case of 2 analog + 16 digital). I think it has its place, different people will value 4 analog (like a DPO) others will value 1, 2, 3, or 4 analog with the option of trading off an analog for 8 digital. To each their own, this provides superior flexibility, integration and performance.

author: BrianH_Tektronix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 04:12:25 pm
content: Quote from: Deridex on June 11, 2017, 10:03:36 amRegarding price, its not that different when you compare the average price for an active probe. Take a look at good quality current probes or differential probes, or high voltage probes from any vendor. These digital probes provide another unique case that fits the normal range of price and performance.

author: Chasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 11, 2017, 04:36:53 pm
content: Quote from: BrianH_Tektronix on June 11, 2017, 12:32:46 amSo, tell us more about the digital section.How do probes and capabilities compare to other MSO? How to dedicated logic analyzers?Perhaps more important, how does the software compare?(In hindsight you should have went with a 10 channel version to placate/head off Daves 8+16 wishes.)

author: Safar
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 12, 2017, 10:48:58 pm
content: It is very interesting for me how work digital channels in FlexChan. Is it DAC coding in probe and ADC decoding in scope?

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 08:58:56 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 11, 2017, 06:24:21 amI dare.... MSO is already a giant compromise on the logic analyzer. If you are serious about digital channels, you have a dedicated logic analyzer. Done. If you have to time correlate a bunch of digital channels with a bunch of analog channels you use a set of instruments where the stand alone oscilloscope and the stand alone logic analyzer can be linked and the data analyzed after. No one is doing serious high channel count digital analysis on an MSO screen. The digital channels on an MSO (especially high channel count), even high quality configurable channels like on this Tek, are not the main reason you buy this piece of gear.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 14, 2017, 09:47:59 pm
content: Quote from: Smokey on June 14, 2017, 08:58:56 pmNot quite right. A logic analyser works different than an MSO so you can't really compare them. A logic analyser first captures data and then the analysis starts. On an MSO you see the data realtime which allows to see patterns over time you are likely to miss on a logic analyser.

author: CopperCone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 06:08:03 pm
content: Brian, how does the FFT engine look on this scope?Like update rate, samples used, etc.

author: Tom45
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 08:02:57 pm
content: Quote from: BrianH_Tektronix on June 11, 2017, 12:32:46 amI'm curious what the embedded OS and/or Windows 10 could do for a user.

author: PA4TIM
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 15, 2017, 08:05:21 pm
content: It is a bit weird, all that marketing stuff.Giving scopes to vloggers who do not need or use most of the gear they get.When I needed a new scope for my one man company (repairing measurement and calibration gear) I wanted to try the scope before buying and had some questions. I mailed Tek, Agilent and R&S (for the topmodel from Hameg) . The only one that reacted was R&S. Ok it was only 5k euro but it would be great if some marketing budget was spent on real potential customers.For me 5k was a big investment. By coincidence I repaired a Tek MSO in the same class as my scope a year ago and I think that I would have bought that if I was able to try it and Tek answered my questions. I like the Hameg but the Tek had some things I preferred (against expectation) when I was testing it after repair.Fred

author: madmax96
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2017, 10:30:40 pm
content: Sometimes I do not understand if it's just marketing or if there are also technical reason on saying that this scope is opening a "new era".12 Adc and 8 channel scope are in the market since more than 3 years...if you look at the Enob of this scope , it'a worst than Keysight S series and LeCroy Hdo9k. If you look at the noise , the Tek scope is a disaster. At 2Ghz is an 8bit scope (why a 12 bit Adc should became an 8 bit???) ... memory is just 125MS, LeCroy have 250M....the only new thing is the monitor, not enough for a new era.Why someone should buy an 8 channel scope? The main applications are power and motor control (3 phase).Who would use a 2Ghz scope for these apps???Sincerely I do not see anything new in the market.

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 01:18:03 am
content: Quote from: madmax96 on June 18, 2017, 10:30:40 pmYou can always buy the 4 channel or 6 channel versions2GHz is needed for high bandwidth signals. Try debugging or testing a memory subsystem with a 200MHz clock using a 200MHz scope. Forget about it. If the waveform update rate of the Lecroy and Keysight is low then you may not capture glitches for a long time.Maybe not a revolutionary scope. More like evolutionarycheers

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 09:00:04 am
content: Quote from: madmax96 on June 18, 2017, 10:30:40 pmI can think of several very good reasons: more channels is better and when it comes in handy for a future problem chances are that having more channels saves more money than the price difference between lower channel version. I have several pieces of expensive test equipment which I use less than once a year but when I use them they pay for themselves each time.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 09:29:10 am
content: Given the amount a fully loaded one of these costs, I'd be highly surprised if the vast majority of potential customers couldn't get all-round better value and productivity by buying multiple different scopes for the same money.

author: madmax96
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 11:10:16 am
content: The point is that if you are soing memory testing you don't need more than 4 analog channels... and at 2Ghz both Keysight and LeCroy have solution with higher Enob and SR... looking a ddr signal with just 6.25Gs/s is not so helpful. 8 analog channel make sense in power electronics, sensors , hybrid engine, motor drive control ... and here 2Ghz is not request . Then 2Ghz at 8 bit and 6.25gs/s is much worse of what already in the market since years

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 11:18:05 am
content: Quote from: madmax96 on June 19, 2017, 11:10:16 amif you are looking for runt pulses caused by bus conflicts etc then you need analog channels

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 11:48:28 am
content: Quote from: madmax96 on June 18, 2017, 10:30:40 pmNot many are going to need 2GHz and the 8 channel.Yes, the main apps for 8 channels are the likes of embedded motor control and power stuff, and for that sort of stuff the basic 350MHz model would be more than enough.With all the multiple rails in stuff, 4 channels can be gone in an instant just PSU system monitoring.An affordable 8CH scope would be most welcome in the mid level market I'm sure, but no one does a bench one AFAIK.Even a 6CH MSO would really liven up the mid level market.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 11:53:42 am
content: First, cudos to Tek for finally coming up with a scope that is not just a rehash of their old lacklustre DPO/MDO platform. It's nice to see quite a bit of innovation in the new scope, and we have a (niche) task where the new MDO5 could serve well.However, I also have to agree with Dave and others that Marketing went overboard, unfortunately as usual with Tek (not that Keysight and R&S don't suffer from the same illness, they're both similarly bad). I know there's a widespread believe that scopes like these are bought by MBA'd office monkeys who have no clue about how to use it, but reality is that it's generally engineers who specify and request a specific instrument. Exaggerations like "game changing" or "this changes everything" make a manufacturer look pretty silly, even more so when wrongly claiming firsts, and frankly if a manufacturer spends so much time talking (usually through their asses) about its competition's scopes instead of its own product then it makes this manufacturer look desperate as well, all which take away from a product which, if it's any good, should be able to stand on its own. If it doesn't then, well, it may be that the product isn't as good as you thought it is.Now to the "game changer" scope:I like the format, I like the design, and the large high resultion screen is nice (I don't think it makes a huge difference but there's certainly the argument why a $15k+ scope needs to come with low res panel in this day and age). Also the choice of Windows or some embedded OS is interesting and probably helps in areas where classification of test data is an issue. The 12bit vertical resolution is nice, too, despite the ENOB (which is pretty meaningless anyways without knowing how it was derived).Connecting the digital channels to the main ADCs is an interesting concept which gives more flexibility although it might create 'either/or' situations where analog and digital channels fight for an ADC.However, based on what I saw from the videos I watched, I do have to say the UI is really poor. It might have been designed for touch as claimed, but considering that Tek is late in this regard I think the result isn't exactly stellar. It looks like it has been designed by someone who has very little idea about human factors interaction. Some of the actions seem unnecessary convoluted and illogical (i.e. switching off a channel by dragging it to the recycle bin???). Considering that LeCroy had it's touch-designed MAUI for roughly 15 years, and by now even Keysight has turned the original mouse-driven UI of its Infiniium scopes into a proper touch UI, I would have expected something more, even though it's already a big step up from the horrible UI of the MDOxxxx Series.I'm also not sure how useful an AWG is in a scope of this class, especially when it comes with limited BW (50Mhz) and tiny sample memory.Also, it seems Tek hasn't really clearly thought about the markets at which to aim the new scope:Quote from: madmax96 on June 18, 2017, 10:30:40 pmThis. The main application for 8 channel scopes are power/motor control application, which generally are fine with BW of 500Mhz to 1GHz. Pretty much all 8 ch scopes are aimed for that market segment, which is why they all come with some kind of power analysis tools. Something that doesn't even seem to be available for the Tek MSO5x.In fact, the overall list of options for the MDO5x is pretty sparse: some jitter analysis package, and serial decode package supporting a few standards (I2C/I2S, SPI, UART, USB2 (but no HS mode), Ethernet, CAN, LIN, FlexRay, TDM) seems to be all that's available. The LeCroy HDO8kA's option list offers a long list of serial decode standards as well as packages for power analysis, compliance, EMC, Serial Data Analysis and even Vector Signal Analysis. As to four channel scopes, Keysight's DSO-S comes with an option list that has even more serial decode standards plus several analysis packages. Which is no surprise, because in this scope class application-specific options are crucial and make or break a scope.So where does this leave Tek? The MSO58 is an 8 channel scope that doesn't support the main application for which 8 channel scopes even exist. The four channel MSO54 still lacks most of the capabilities of its competitors. Up to 64 digital channels are nice, and an 8ch MSO58 can have 4 analog and 32 digital channels which is more than other scopes, however applications requiring a 32bit wide MSO are certainly a tiny niche, and again the lack of options will leave the Tek MDO5x exposed.The AWG, not only because of it's low specs, seems to be more like a gimmick. The same is true for the DVM, and considering the UI I'm inclined to say the same about the high res display. AWG and DVM may be useful in entry-level scopes but I can see little purpose for them in a lower high-end scope.I also wish Tek had put some of the effort they used for exaggerating into making its datasheets better, or why is basic performance data like max FFT sample size, the AWGs sample memory size or the AWG resolution absent?Quote from: snoopy on June 19, 2017, 01:18:03 amI'm not sure how Tek did its "tests" (or how competent the tester was with a non-Tek scope), and of course Tek doesn't state the test parameters or even the software versions of the involved scopes, but we get a lot more than the claimed 700 wfms/s from our HDO8000 (non-A) scopes, and even our Keysight scopes fare better than the 1000(?) or so wfms/s stated by Tek.I'll certainly get a demo unit in at some point for our engineers to look at but aside from one niche case where the high number of digital channels might be useful I can't see how the MDO5x could even replace our Keysight and LeCroy scopes, forget about "changing everything". However if Tek works on expanding the options (maybe start with power analysis) then it could become a viable alternative to Yokogawa, LeCroy and Keysight, though.

author: boggis the cat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 12:04:19 pm
content: Why not do a modular system? With modern fast bus speeds it would surely be easy enough to put the front end in a module and offload the data collection and processing. Make provision for eight plug-ins and let the customer buy the mainframe and populate it with their choice of modules.Hioki do this already with card based mainframes (and some other Japanese manufacturers, I think), but you could make a better job of it with more compact front connecting modules -- even make them hot-swappable.Produce analogue modules in various bandwidth ratings, high voltage analogue modules, digital signal modules, multimeter modules...Surely in the age of USB-C and touch-screen controls this could be done well.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 12:18:12 pm
content: Quote from: BrianH_Tektronix on June 11, 2017, 04:07:51 pmIyour eternal marketing optimism.You clearly don't understand what I'm getting at, or you just want to admit it.Your 2CH comparison is the most ridiculous straw man I've heard in a long time. I won't explain why, you already know.When people buy a 4CH scope they are doing so because they have a real need for 4 analog channels. They want toknowthey have 4 analog channels available should the need arise.Now, when someone buys an MSO, nothing changes, still buying entirely on the 4CH analog requirement knowing they are getting the extra digital functionality for free.This ishow every MSO on the market works,except yours.Buy your 4CH 5-Series "MSO" and not only do younotget the digital probes with a scope marketed as an "MSO", you have to lose one or two analog channels to use it.A massive compromise thatno other scope on the market has.And Murphy will ensure you'll lose those analog channels right when you need them.An oscilloscope is designed to viewanalog signals, that's what they do, that's why people buy them, that'swhat you pay for. MSO scopes are analog scopes with some extra handy time correlated digital channels, people don't buy expensive scopes primarily as logic analysers.This is why your ability to go to 64 channels is entirely moot, virtually no one will ever do that.Only a fool would buy the 4CH 5-Series as a general purpose MSO. You would have to have a very specific need for some performance aspect of the 5-series or like it for some other reason.Yes people can and do have different needs, but this is how the vast majority of people will be thinking when they want to buy a new scope for the lab. The 4CH 5-Series is simply not competitive in the general purpose 4CH MSO market. Yes it "has it's place", but that place is ridiculous small because it's a crippled design concept when it comes to 4 channels.Not nearly so much of a problem with the 6CH and 8Ch version of course.Now this isn't to say you made the wrong choice by doing this, you may have has very good technical reason to do it, and got very good performance by doing so. But it's a not a solution that is all rainbows, there is a price to be paid for doing this, and on the 4CH it's a biggie.If you tried this in the lower end market with a 4CH Flex channel scope compared to all the competition with 4+16CH, it would be dead in the water.Let me know in 12 months time how well your 4CH 5-Series is selling...I await you bundling those digital probes in, 3.. 2.. 1..

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 12:20:09 pm
content: Quote from: boggis the cat on June 19, 2017, 12:04:19 pmAn angry engineer shouts across the lab: "Alright, who's the bastard who stole my $5k 2GHz plugins?"

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 19, 2017, 12:56:10 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on June 19, 2017, 09:29:10 amIf you are in the market for a general purpose lab MSO in the sub $20k market then there are certainly many other compelling options.If you are after specific high performance in the >$20k range, then the new 5-Series would have much less competition. It might even be the bang-per-buck winner on a few metrics. Hard to know without detailed analysis.This scope simply isn't in the running for the general purpose lab scope market though, although they sure marketed like it was going to be the new scope every engineer must have.It's a great scope, but I think everyone was expecting a lower price level, but it turned out not to be that. And there is nothing wrong with that of course, it is what it is.Will be interesting to see the new Rigol scope, who have now joined the "big 4" players in having their own custom ASIC technology and multi GHz bandwidth. That will no doubt be more "everyday engineer" pricing level.Will also be interesting to see if people will trust spending up another price level on a Rigol scope.

author: grouchobyte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 04:23:02 am
content: The rep is bringing one over tomorrow. Having worked at Tek in a design capacity for years I am curious about this latest beast. When it comes to innovation Tek has a decent reputation. However in the past decade or two I have seen Tek really fall behind. I am quite certain, based on some early reviews that there is some nice innovation going on. Many of Dave's comments really hit the nail on the head and the reality in which Tek find themselves in todays market. At current published pricing, I am not sure this will bring everyone running to tek to place early orders. I asked to see one because I want to see if this scope is worth it. I can certainly afford it, but it is on the high side for just a few cool features and some meh improvements. Since when is pinch and zoom innovative or capacitive touch?. Sounds alot like catch-up to me@grouchobyte

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 08:31:20 am
content: Quote from: grouchobyte on June 20, 2017, 04:23:02 amWould be very interesting to sound out just how fixed those list prices are, and how amenable they are to throwing probes/options in to get a sale

author: grouchobyte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2017, 11:15:50 pm
content: Helps to be in Beaverton just down the street from Tek. Played with it for about 20 minutes, less than that actually.Impressions:- Very nice BIG screen....not as crisp as I would have liked. Viewing angle and brightness/contrast is a tad underwhelming for a box costing 15-20K- snappy response to button pushes and touch gestures- physical controls are well implemented. The color illumination on the physical controls is useful. Makes finding stuff in the dark easy.-cursors work very well and the touch gestures are easy to use. Works with a mouse too- 8 simultaneous measurements - very handy indeed- web interface is snappy and useful-scope takes 1.5 minutes to boot up...uggg- fan is quiet and acceptable for a lab environment-the stacked feature is clever and saves time-FFT's seem fast but I didn't have enough time to really see how they stack up to other 12-bit scopesI asked them about price and they know the market is gasping for a lower price point. There was some indication that after a few months of signing up the early adopters and seeing some slowing in sales that they will probalby throw in some options to get the sagging sales back up. They are keenly aware of the high price. They want to price it that way initially. Right now they want full boat list price for everything ( all options) and that is really unfortunate for them. I am gonna wait until they realize the sales are just not there. Sad.@grouchobyte

author: edavid
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 12:01:48 am
content: Quote from: grouchobyte on June 20, 2017, 11:15:50 pmWas that the Windows version?

author: grouchobyte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 12:17:03 am
content: Quote from: edavid on June 21, 2017, 12:01:48 amThe demo unit I had in my lab apparently had no SSD with full blown Windows on it.Instead, I assume it had some embedded version of Windows running on the scope. However , a 90 second boot time is a little excessive IMHO@grouchobyte

author: BrianH_Tektronix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 12:44:21 am
content: Quote from: grouchobyte on June 20, 2017, 11:15:50 pmGlad you enjoyed seeing the new scopeOur engineering team has spent a lot of time making sure user pain points are reduced, and that the user interface works extremely well. The new measurement system adds a wide amount of capabilities like integrating our jitter analysis package. BTW, your not limited to 8 measurements (you can add as many as you want). The bootup time isn't bad seeing it does a lot of preliminary checks on 8 FlexChannel inputs and acq system. Many scopes in this space take ~1min for 4 channels. So 1.5mins for 8 channels isn't badI'm sure engineering could reduce the time even more, but I honestly boot up my scope on Monday and turn it off on Friday so its not really that critical IMO.Quote from: grouchobyte on June 21, 2017, 12:17:03 amIts an embedded linux OS, the SSD option is Windows 10.

author: BrianH_Tektronix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 01:06:36 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 19, 2017, 11:53:42 amFirst off, Thanks! Our engineers have worked their butts off getting this product launched. Its a real work of art when you get to play with it for any length of time. I can't tell you how many times we've heard 'why didn't anyone think of that before' after being blown away with how simple it drives or the details that were taken into the design.Regarding the waveform update rate "tests", our testing is performed the same across all vendors. Its done using the aux out to capture the average trigger out speed at different horizontal settings. Each horizontal setting is adjusted (RL, display modes, ect) until the fastest speeds are achieved. Then the average of those fastest speeds are plotted against the horizontal scale. To be completely honest, the Tek 5 Series MSO gets to its peak speeds much easier than most competitor scopes in its class (with only a simple button press). And all competitor scopes were tested using the their latest FW at the time of testing. The Keysight X-Series scope is optimized for speed, but if you compare the S-Series or higher you'll notice its under that 1000 wfms/sec, same with the HDO scopes. If you can get their scope faster, PM me and i'll happily update our documentation.

author: snoopy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 03:45:05 am
content: Quote from: grouchobyte on June 20, 2017, 11:15:50 pmSounds like the Osbourne effect in play. Now everyone will be waiting around for the extra probes before they make a move. They should of had the introductory offer right from the start like some of the other scope offerings

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 07:48:51 am
content: Quote from: BrianH_Tektronix on June 21, 2017, 12:44:21 amConsidering that almost all of the time, one would hope that there aren't any faults, and if there are, chances are they would be fairly obvious, perhaps at least an option for faster boot and a manual selftest on demand might be useful?..and if each channel is independent, surely it should be possible to test them mostly in parallel, so more channels doesn't take much more time?

author: madmax96
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 11:55:42 am
content: What is very strange to me it's that the main innovation of this scope seems to be just the screen....no one talking about Enob and noise comparison against other 10 or 12 bit scope. No really Hw performance comparison that is the only reason why there should be really improvements against other scopes. At 1Ghz this new scope has 7.6 enob against 8.4 bits of LeCroy Hdo8000A. Noise at 10mv/div is 283uV agains 210uV...at 1V/div the noise is twice in the Tek scope (ok 10 division vs 8 but with the right proportion still much worse). A true 12 bit Adc can not have a DC accuracy at just 1%...In the datasheet Mso 5 series is an 8 bit scope at 2Ghz...but does it have a 12 bit or 8 bit Adc??? At 2 Ghz Enob is at 7. LeCroy Hdo9000 has 7.4 at 2Ghz and 6.8 enob at 4Ghz!!!But everyone talk about screen, pinch zoom (Keysight has this since more than 2 years)...and think with no value from the technical point of you!Would you like to talk about the Bw at 2mV/div?Just 350Mhz...other scope has 1Ghz or higher Bw!! This is still the same performance of the old Tek amplifier since 10 years.Sincerely I was expecting from Tek a really new scope that would have demonstrate their big capabilities on the Hw side...but I think we have still to wait...but let's talk about the screen (Keysight has the capacitive 15.3" touch screen monitor since 2-3 years)

author: technogeeky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 12:24:52 pm
content: Quote from: madmax96 on June 21, 2017, 11:55:42 amWell, the main innovations are:the screenthe analog/digital front-end that is 1 analog / 8 digitalYou can argue positives and negatives about both, I'm sure. But I don't think anybody else has these kind of switchable front-ends.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 01:16:44 pm
content: Quote from: technogeeky on June 21, 2017, 12:24:52 pmUnlike most innovations in this segment, I don't think this is one that other manufacturers will want to copy.You certainly wouldn't want to do it on a 4CH scope for example, you'd get killed in the market by all the other 4+16 channel scopes.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 02:11:58 pm
content: Quote from: BrianH_Tektronix on June 21, 2017, 01:06:36 amYeah, I'm not so sure about that last part. As I said, the UI looks pretty poor and shows a lack of Human Factors considerations by whoever designed it. If you trialed with engineers that still work with analog scopes or only know other Tek scopes then you might get a lot of awe', but if like me you know what else the market offers (and I have to, considering the amount of T&M gear I purchase for our labs) then reactions will understandably be a lot more modest. Because besides the idea of using one port and ADC for analog and digital channels (which is new but comes with advantages and disadvantages) I can't see much which would leave me wondering why no-one else has done it (and a lot of things others have been doing for a long time). There's a lot of new stuff in the MSO5x for Tek, but that is simply because Tek's previous DSO offerings have been pretty lacklustre throughout.I see the MDO5x as a solid start for Tek to shake off the cruft of the past, but certainly not as a game changer. Because it really isn't. I'm not even sure which market Tek tries to catch with it. This may sound harsh to you (I know it's not nice to hear if someone calls your baby ugly) but that's my opinion as a large T&M customer, and people like me are at the end of the day the ones who procure these things.Having said that, the MSO5x looks impressive enough for Tek to get it's foot in our door again, which is quite an achievement. At some point I'll certainly try to get an MSO58 in for our engineers to evaluate.QuoteWhat's your input signal? And especially, what's your trigger settings?QuoteI have no specific figures at hand but I'm pretty sure we get quite a bit more than 1000 wfms/s from our DSO-S scopes, and even more so from our HDO8ks and HDO6ks. If you really got such low numbers then there must be something wrong in your test methodology (which btw anyone who's concerned about being taken seriously would fully specify together with the results, just sayin'), i.e. like using AUTO triggering.Besides, in this scope class, update rate is a lot less important than for entry-level scopes, simply because glitch finding is generally done with advanced triggering through one of the many available options. Unfortunately many of which are not even available for the Tek MSO5x.Quote from: madmax96 on June 21, 2017, 11:55:42 amThere's no point talking about ENOB. It's completely meaningless as long as it's not clear under which condition the number was achieved/calculated.

author: madmax96
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 03:00:57 pm
content: There's no point talking about ENOB. It's completely meaningless as long as it's not clear under which condition the number was achieved/calculated.For sure everyone is using on the datasheet the best result he can get using IEEE method or spectrum method ...If you put on your datasheet a value that is 1 bit below your competitor, I'm sure you have used the method that can maximize your resultIf you say that your 12 bit Adc che give to the scope a 7 Enob...I'm sure you can no do better in any other way (you are using the best vertical division , the best method)

author: madmax96
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 03:06:53 pm
content: Quote from: technogeeky on June 21, 2017, 12:24:52 pmThe screen...in the market you did other screen like this one - Keysight S serie and LeCroy Hdo9000Switchable front end...LeCroy can already give you 8 ch + 16 digitals...you can no do that with the new Tek scope...you can have 7 ch + 8 digitals or 6ch + 16 digitals../Sorry but I don't understand the innovation...People using an oscilloscope is much more interested on analog channel and not digital..if not the buy a logic Analyzer.I love Tek and his old technology.First to have a 20Ghz scope, incredible front-end in the past...so I was really expecting much more from them

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 06:54:57 pm
content: Quote from: madmax96 on June 21, 2017, 03:06:53 pmWhat model? I'm only aware of the DPO70000 and this wasn't the first 20+GHz real-time scope (LeCroy and later Agilent were there before), although Tek was stuck with that design for a long time (and still offers it) while the competition marched on to 73Ghz, and only came out with a 70Ghz scope (DPO70000SX) after the competition launched 100GHz.There's also the CSA8000 sampling scope but again it wasn't any faster than the competition (Agilent DCA, LeCroy WaveExpert).

author: BrianH_Tektronix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 08:31:29 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 21, 2017, 06:54:57 pmJust to clarify, Tek had the first real-time oscilloscope up to 20GHz (DPO72004) which came out in Feb 2007. At the time LeCroy had 11GHz and Agilent had 13GHz. Today Keysight offers a 63GHz real-time oscilloscope, Tektronix offers a 70GHz and LeCroy offers a 100GHz.

author: technogeeky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 09:29:49 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 21, 2017, 01:16:44 pmI read your assessment and I pretty much agree. Nevertheless, to my uninformed eyes (in the sense that I don't know every frontend of every oscilloscope) -- this seems like it's the introduction of something new.Also, am I correct in thinking it's a small mistake to only think of the probe offerings of today? First of all, it's possible that the digital probes are extremely cheap to produce. IFF so, they can lower the price on those 8ch probe packs dramatically. Even if this doesn't happen, couldn't it be possible to interleave the digital and analog signals in a single probe in a useful way?Even if you don't think they won't ever be cheap; or, you think they won't be useful in a new way... you still can't argue that this is just Tek re-badging something that other scopes are doing. This is a new thing.

author: grouchobyte
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2017, 09:55:07 pm
content: Dear TektronixThe writing is on the wall. You guys are writing your own obituary and don't even realize itBack when I worked at 'Tek, my business cards actually said ENABLING INNOVATION down at the bottom under my name and title, like a tag line. In fact that is what you guys did. But over the years that has evolved into something far removed from what we call it todayInnovating is a little different in this day and age. You have some serious competition in this space and its not just good enough to do a me-too refresh in order to get market share. In the early days at Tek when Jack Murdock and Howard Volum walked the halls, Tek was truly in the innovation business. They made everything from CRTs to knobs, transistors and transformers, etc. This was not done because Tek wanted to make components, it was done in order to make the best instruments on the planet. In otherwords, Tek innovated to survive. And they did it like no other company could.These days Tek seems to be motivated and inspired by smart phones and tablets are are pretending to innovate by following others, not by leading. Sure, you made a nicer mousetrap with the MSO but it is not earth shaking or game-changing ( gosh, I hate that term)Please don't misunderstand me. I like what you have done with this new series 5 box, but you need to stop hyping it like its never been done before. The wanky videos you produce of the tek team expressing their passion for the team and the heart felt sentiments about this product is sickeningly sweet and reminds me of Jony Ive and his incesteous relationship with Apple.We engineers use these things everyday and know full well what you have done. There is simply no need to defend, oversell or spoon-fed us on your wonderful engineering feats and/or defend or justify your marketing decisions. We get it.Remember the VCR? When Sony first introduced their 'game-changing' betamax VCR it was truly innovative and cost $2000. Then VHS was introduced by others but still over $1500. They all claimed that the pricing was justified because of the cost of development. That's cost led pricing. The sales were slow.....until Magnavox and their market-led pricing models (w/ some other Japanese mfgs) introduced the $299 VCR. Now the sales skyrocketed and the VHS VCR became ubiquious before moving into obsolescence like most consumer tech stuff. Sure they lost money in the beginning but they dominated for years and wiped the competition away.Hint: If you want sales from this new MSO beast (and I mean that in an complimentary way) stop hyping it like Apple does with their products and market it with purpose. Like slash the price, throw in all the options and then wait for the phone to ring off the hook and the riots to begin.Now that's welcome innovation that is consistent with Tek's early legacy.: Enabling Innovation.(Today its more like Tektronix: Enabling Innovation by disabling it until you pay for it)@grouchobyte

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 22, 2017, 05:30:07 am
content: Quote from: grouchobyte on June 21, 2017, 09:55:07 pmThey should have taken a leaf out of Rohde & Schwarz's marketing book.People went insane over the RTB2004 launch deal, and rightly so.Although to be fair, it was a much lower end scope, so the price they were able to offer the RTB2004 made it almost serious hobby affordable.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2017, 06:21:08 pm
content: Quote from: BrianH_Tektronix on June 21, 2017, 08:31:29 pmLooks like you're right, Tek had indeed the first 20GHz real-time scope:https://web.archive.org/web/20070222220943/http://www.tek.com:80/products/oscilloscopes/dpo70000_dsa70000/QuoteNot true, at that time LeCroy already had the SDA18000 with 18GHz bandwidth and 60GSa/s sample rate, which actually came out 8 months earlier than the DPO72004 and at a time when the DPO70000 was still limited to 8Ghz and 25GSa/s:https://web.archive.org/web/20060615065930/http://www.lecroy.com:80/https://web.archive.org/web/20070111030525/http://www.tek.com:80/products/oscilloscopes/dpo70000_dsa70000/index.htmlThe practical difference between 18Ghz BW and 20Ghz BW are pretty marginal (for the tasks these scopes are generally used for, the 20Ghz scope won't allow you to do more than a 18Ghz scope), and of course the individual BW steps vary between individual manufacturers (i.e. not all scope manufacturers will have a 20Ghz scope but may have a 22Ghz scope).Interesting is however how long Tek got stuck at that level while others marched on:LeCroy achieved 30GHz and 80GSa/s (WaveMaster 830zi) in Feb 2009:https://web.archive.org/web/20090224035412/http://lecroy.com:80/tm/products/default.aspAnd 45Ghz and 120GSa/s in Dec 2010 (WaveMaster 845Zi-A and LabMaster 945Zi-A):https://web.archive.org/web/20101225135320/http://www.lecroy.com:80/At the same time, Tek was still stuck with the DPO70000 at 20GHz and 50GSa/s:https://web.archive.org/web/20101211163642/http://www.tek.com:80/products/oscilloscopes/And shortly before LeCroy went up to 60Ghz and 160GSa/s (LabMaster 10Zi) in Jan 2012:https://web.archive.org/web/20120118135329/http://www.lecroy.com/Tek only made the jump from 20Ghz & 50GSa/s to 33Ghz and 100GSa/s:https://web.archive.org/web/20120126030535/http://www.tek.com:80/oscilloscopeJuly 24, 2013: LeCroy demonstrates a lab version of its 100Ghz 240GSa/s scopehttps://web.archive.org/web/20131219143511/http://teledynelecroy.com:80/100ghz/Which then became officially available (LabMaster 10zi) in Dec 2014https://web.archive.org/web/20141021083059/http://teledynelecroy.com:80/oscilloscope/while Tek was still stuck with the old DPO70k platform at 33Ghz and 100GSa/s:https://web.archive.org/web/20141225082629/http://www.tek.com:80/oscilloscope#allQuoteCorrect, in 2007 Agilent were still stuck with the old DSO80k Series with up to 13Ghz (which also suffered from various hardware limitations):https://web.archive.org/web/20070207230130/http://www.home.agilent.com:80/USeng/nav/-536902447.0/pc.htmlHowever this DSO80k was actually introduced in Dec 2004:https://web.archive.org/web/20041204090657/http://we.home.agilent.com:80/USeng/nav/-536895900.0/pc.htmlThe successor DSO90k came out in Feb 2008, still limited to 13GHz and 40GSa/s but now without the limitations of the old platform and better overall performance:https://d3fdwrtpsinh7j.cloudfront.net/Docs/datasheet/agilent_dso90000a.pdf(no archive.org link as by then Agilent has started to refuse them scanning their website)In 2010, while Tek was still sitting at 20Ghz/50GSa/s, Agilent introduced the DSO90k X-Series with BW up to 33GHz and 80GSa/s, and in Nov 2012 the DSO90k Q-Series with up to 63GHz and 160GSa/s (Tek only made the jump to 33GHz and 100GSa/s a year before).QuoteKeysight has stuck at 63Ghz and invested in improving its scope architecture instead, probably because tasks requiring more than 60Ghz are truly niche applications, and I can't say that this was a bad decision.However, what the above list shows is that, for high BW scopes, stating that manufacturer A had the first X Ghz scope is pretty useless when everyone of them uses different BW steppings. What's important is the overall package, i.e. the BW, and even more so the sample rate (or better the sample rate to BW ratio), the processing backend, and last but not least, the available analysis and measurement options. And unfortunately the whole package is something Tek has been lacking for a very long time.The MSO5x seems to be a solid scope (although in search of a target market) and gives hope that things in Tek improve, but it's by no far something that "changes everything". God knows we can use more serious competition, would be great if Tek could step up and become one again. Using its new ADC in a entry level scope with strong processing, decent maths and analysis tools and competitive pricing, as suggested in the other MSO5 thread, might be an easier start.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2017, 06:35:21 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 22, 2017, 05:30:07 amIt wouldn't work the same way with a lower high-end scope like the MSO5x. Also Tek's pricing seems to be pretty reasonable (not exactly cheap but also not excessive like in the past) and in this class price isn't necessarily a top priority anyways.As to the RTB2004, I doubt that the launch deal made a huge impact, not only because the numbers available were embarrassingly low (plus the deal was only available in the US, essentially giving Europe and RoW the middle finger). I guess this was because of the very low price, which I doubt covers R&S costs. They should have sold slightly more expensive and globally instead. Even at $3500 it would have been attractive, however the $7k or so R&S wants outside of the promo are excessive.I doubt the RTB will sell in larger numbers.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2017, 07:07:55 pm
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 22, 2017, 06:35:21 pmFirst of all: Welcome back!Secondly: where would you put the MSO5 series compared to the competition? The Lecroy HDO8000 has been mentioned a couple of times but what has Keysight to match this oscilloscope?

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2017, 09:45:21 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 22, 2017, 07:07:55 pmThanks! Let's see how long it lasts this timeQuoteFor me it's difficult to position the MSO5, because, irrespective of its technical capabilities, it appears to be designed as a solution looking for a problem. The 8 channel MSO58 seems (based on the Tek website, the poor datasheet and the videos I've seen) to lack appropriate power analysis software, and power analysis is probably 99% of the market for an 8 channel scope. LeCroy's HDO8000 offers power analysis (there's even a special version of the HDO8000 sold as Motor Drive Analyzer MDA8000), as does the Yokogawa DLM4000 8ch scope. Without power analysis, the MSO58 isn't a very good choice unless you have a very niche task that requires 8 analog channels or say 4 analog + 32 digital channels.Keysight doesn't have an 8ch scope, but they do have dedicated Power Analyzers and Current Analyzers:http://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-2746816/ac-power-analyzers?nid=-32119.0&cc=GB&lc=eng&tab=allhttp://www.keysight.com/en/pc-2633352/device-current-waveform-analyzers?nid=-32302.0&cc=GB&lc=engThe 6ch MSO56, well again it's pretty much a solution in search of a problem.The four channel variant could be interesting, especially if you have use for 'either - or' operation of analog and digital channels, but if you need analysis tools again you're lost because most of the tools available for competing 4ch scopes aren't available for the MSO5.My predicition is that this scope will be a very tough sell...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2017, 09:57:24 pm
content: I'm not really after very advanced analysis tools although I know that is different for other people. What would stand out for me is deep memory, small form factor and peak detect for general purpose use. Keysight (8000 and 9000 series aren't very compact AFAIK) and Lecroy (no peak detect) don't fit the bill for that very short requirement list. 8 channels is always better than having less channels so in the parallel universe where I could spend that much money on a scope I'd get the 8 channel version and be done with it. The price difference will pay itself back that one time where having more than 4 channels saves a lot of time.

author: technogeeky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 12:32:09 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 22, 2017, 06:21:08 pmI took the liberty of graphing the information you presented as best as I could (I had to try and extrapolate to earlier years). This is certainly no more accurate than your description, and may be less accurate. It is also less precise (I binned all of the dates into 1 year bins). But I think it gets the same point as your history across, in many hundred fewer words:

author: w2aew
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 01:48:19 am
content: Quote from: technogeeky on June 23, 2017, 12:32:09 amYou missed the Tek 70GHz realtime scope 2015-ish

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 01:56:20 am
content: Quote from: w2aew on June 23, 2017, 01:48:19 amAnd they should be step changes rather than slopes....

author: technogeeky
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 04:54:55 am
content: Quote from: w2aew on June 23, 2017, 01:48:19 amFixed.Quote from: SomeoneNot fixed.too lazythat is true (because of 1-year binning) but it doesn't invalidate the intended point by Wuerstchenhundlists come in threes

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 05:23:11 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 22, 2017, 09:57:24 pmThe DSO9k isn't big but it's an old platform which starts to show its age. Older ones are limited to Windowsxp, and especially the newer ones running Windows 7 are pretty expensive even 2nd hand.The DSO8k has the traditional scope format with deep housing. Great for stacking but it needs space on a bench. Also the tiny touch screen is barely usable with fingers, you'd either need a stylus or a mouse to operate it. And the whole platform is even older than the DSO9k, plus it's out of support. The good thing is that it's faster and a lot more reliable than the old 54800 Series Infiniiums, and with some luck can be found pretty cheap.But for a modern compeititor, you'd be looking at the DSO-S, which is a very nice scope.QuoteIn this case I'd say the MSO58 could be a viable contender. The 8ch variant also seems to be cheaper than the LeCroy HDO8k(A). And since you don't need advanced analysis (so you probably won't want to run Matlab on the scope) the fact that the MSO5 comes with an embedded OS could be another advantage.I'd say give it a try, and if you like it and you can live with the UI then it actually might be your perfect scope.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 05:30:20 am
content: Quote from: technogeeky on June 23, 2017, 12:32:09 amNice!QuoteIt does, and although it should be taken with a grain of salt (because the BW steps used by individual manufacturers differ), it does show where most of the innovation in scope technology happens today, and this without talking about it's competitors' scopes (a lesson to learn for Tek and Keysight, stop the moronic 'us-vs-theirs' comparisons and spend more time improving your own products instead) .

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 06:15:45 am
content: How does the race at wider bandwidth (only!) determine where the most innovation is?to put it in practical terms, granted that while research is fundamental for progress, then it's up to humble people like me and many other designers to make producs on a stricter budget, with need for a better scope with some of the analysis features that only seem available for the big monsters that costs more than many years of our salary and i think we could use a new line of low/midrange scopesif you ask me the innovation brought by this scope, the real great new thing about this scope is its ASIC.Since it has actually four interleaved ADCs, I agree with Dave: tek could and SHOULD make one hell of a four channel general purpose scope, simillar and placed exactly at the DSOX-3000T price point, could sell like hotcakes if they won't be lazy and loat it with options and decodes like the keysightoptions! we need options! otherwise rigol is capable to deliver bandwidth, memory and samplerate for cheap. why would i have to pay more for the same?even if keysight is short on memory, the amount of options they give you is astronomical, everything you may ever need, one then overlooks the low memory because being able actually to do something with the signal is more important

author: GlowingGhoul
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 06:37:47 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on June 23, 2017, 06:15:45 amIt doesn't. But all it takes is the opportunity for some Keysight (and Tek in this instance) bashing for wienerschnitzel to rush in to remind us how the least successful 1st tear test gear company is really the best, no matter what metric needs to be used to make the point.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 06:47:16 am
content: i intended that as a trick questioni'll add another point: a big factor for INNOVATION would be a scope that enables third parties or even users to ADD options. if manufacturer doesn't want or care to add "X" option i can at least get around this limitation, which has been questionable since scopes were computers connected to acquisition modules (so at least the 90's for lecroy)... and is absurd today. 1000 bonus points for whoever does it first, in the low/midrange segmentDaniel says he's pushing hard to make keysight release one set of API or some other tool to let users add their own decodes without revealing too much about the architecture...yeah, the 1000x is for hobbyists with little money but who cares? once you open the can of worms.. and then keysight will be ahead of the others again.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 08:10:57 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on June 23, 2017, 06:15:45 amFor a real-time scope, larger BW requires higher sample rates, which means a lot of work has to go into the ADC section. A higher sample rate means a lot more data to process, so the scope has to come with a faster processing platform.I'm not saying BW alone is always an indicator for innovation, but it's not easy getting a scope to 60Ghz or 100GHz, with sample rates of up to 240GHz (240GSa/s), you can't do that with run-of-the-mill components as you're pushing against the limits of physics.Shariar did a great video about the 100Ghz scope, which shows some of the difficulties achieving such bandwidths.QuoteI agree. There's a lot of functionality that seems to be only available in upper mid-range or high-end scopes but which could be easily realized in an upper entry-level scope.QuoteI agree.QuoteWell, Tek's new ADC isn't an 8bit ADC, so it wouldn't be an 8bit scope like the DSOX3kT, it would compete with the R&S RTB2004 and the LeCroy HDO4k. And it certainly would be more expensive.Tek could probably scale down its ADC to 8bit, but it's not sure this is economically viable. Actually, I'd go as far as saying to leave 8bit scopes to the Chinese and focus on 10bit or 12bit scopes.QuoteI agree, although other things (like having an UI that hasn't been designed by someone who hates humans, or not locking up when something demanding is running on the scope, both issues with the DPO/MDOxxxx scopes) are important as well.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 08:12:14 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on June 23, 2017, 06:47:16 amTektronix and Keysight have supported Matlab integration on their analysis scopes for some time:http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5990-3353EN.pdf?id=1619098http://news.tektronix.com/2001-10-09-Tektronix-and-The-MathWorks-Announce-Connectivity-Between-Oscilloscopes-And-MATLABIts always been a bit of a niche as the processing was quite slow (matlab has improved a lot in performance over time) and could only leverage the data that was otherwise captured rather than adding new triggers or anything like that. If it was such an innovation and people valued it you'd have heard more about it, I suspect you're just wanting more stuff for free (be it community driven or not).

author: madmax96
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 08:50:47 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 21, 2017, 06:54:57 pmTek Dpo70000 20Ghz was the first in the world in 2007 . Agilent and LeCroy has 13Ghz at that time.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 08:53:31 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on June 23, 2017, 06:47:16 amAs 'Someone' already said that has been available for a long time from all three major manufacturers. However, it also requires that the scope can run user software, Many upper mid-range and pretty much all high-end scopes are based on desktop Windows so this isn't an issue, but it is for most embedded platform scopes (which is what low end/entry level scopes are).Then there's the question if it's worth opening up an embedded platform, because I still can't run many tools due to the lack of memory and processing power.QuoteAs far as I'm aware the GW Instek GDS-2000E scope allows downloadable "apps", although it seems there's nu supporting documentation for writing them (yet?).QuoteNot sure about that. Low-end/entry-level scopes are often used like analog scopes, and it's unlikely a lot of users would be interested to develop plugins for a proprietary, closed low performance platform.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 08:53:51 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 23, 2017, 08:10:57 amI wonder the price of the Tek 12bit ADC vs the R&S 10bit.10bit is enough for a low to mid level bench scope to be a differentiator.If it's a choice between a cheaper 10bit and a more expensive 12bit, all thing being equal, customers will pick the 10bit.

author: Wuerstchenhund
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 09:00:39 am
content: Quote from: madmax96 on June 23, 2017, 08:50:47 amI guess you missed my reply above then, as I already showed that LeCroy had 18Ghz/60Gsa/s in 2006.Besides, BW firsts are useless as manufacturers use different BW steppings, and at the end of the day the whole package (BW, sample rate to BW ratio, processing performance) is relevant.

author: JPortici
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 09:29:25 am
content: Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on June 23, 2017, 08:10:57 amYes! That's exactly what i mean. I may not need multi hundred MHz bandwidth or multi GS/s sample rate, but i'd still find a use for less ubiquitous decodes (and trigger on such decodes) or other features that are basically ignored if you spend less than 10k for a scopeOne of the reasons that i massively use a picoscope, despite its evident limitations.QuoteI disagree. Besides the fact that from my understanding the ASIC already runs at bit at full samplerate, I keep insisting that the power of a DSO is in its options.Keysight seems to be the most flexible to me and for what i need to do.. and significantly cheaper than the HDO4K. for a small business this is important.I don't even consider the RTB because of lacks of options.If i only want to look at a pretty signal with low noise / high bitdepth there are cheaper solutionsI agree on the importance of a UI and a good platform behing the scope, this new tek seems a great step forward for themanother set of reasons i like picoscopes, despite their limitationsRe: third party options.. yes it would be nice to have more things "for free", if you're not going to give them anyway..granted it's probably easier to do on a windows based scope, i don't see why you couldn't implement such a thing even for embedded OS.

author: georgd
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 23, 2017, 02:54:49 pm
content: Quote from: JPortici on June 23, 2017, 06:47:16 amWe are impatiently waiting for it!

author: BrianH_Tektronix
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2017, 05:58:29 am
content: Quote from: JPortici on June 23, 2017, 06:47:16 amTektronix has done this for years. We have multiple avenues. All current windows scopes MSO/DPO5000 Series or higher have MATLAB integration into the Data Store (direct internal memory access) to which we have an Application Development Kit (ADK) that allows people to write apps using the user interface and option SR-CUST allows people to write custom decoders right into the Tekscope app. Our manual gives a nice description about the ADK:"The Application Development Kit (ADK) extends the OpenChoice®framework to support custom end-user and third-party applicationdevelopment. ADK documentation describes how to implement the DataStore Public Interface to speed internal transfer of waveform data throughuser-created data processing algorithms and display the results in real timeon the oscilloscope screen. The Data Store Public Interface is >2X fasterthan traditional GPIB-based data transfer techniques. The Data StorePublic Interface is accessible through MathWorks MATLAB® or .NETlanguages such as C# or Visual Basic. Other features of the ADK include aDPOJET plug-in that enables users to add custom measurements to thismarket-leading timing and jitter analysis tool. The ADK providescomprehensive documentation and coding examples to aid the user indeveloping their own unique analysis tool kit to quickly capture and analyzetheir signals."Nice example one of our AEs wrote back in 2012 >>We also have 3rd party app writers like Prodigy Technovations and Granite River Labs that currently sell options and software that run on our scopes.http://www.prodigytechno.com/http://graniteriverlabs.com/usb-pd/