Bad Breadboard?  better ones? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: radiomog
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 03:50:49 am
content: I purchased a bit of Arduino stuff on-line.lots of things I'd like to do, but a long road to travel, so needless to say I'm just getting started.<Please see attached photo>I have a few breadboards, my bigger ones are in use on another project...the one on the left, in use, is an old-school "Archer" brand, and on the left is one of the boards that came with one ofmy Arduino kits.I was having problems figuring out why I was not having much luck with my Arduinio learnings today.I was getting all kinds of intermittent results with various displays. By chance I discovered that the board on the right,wasn't performing very well. All this after hours of trying to figure out what I'd done wrong.Come to find out it was a hardware problem..I called it a day, and didn't do any diagnostics on the breadboard in question.. I already wasted too much time with it today.and it's probably cheaper to just order up a new one.any one else experience issues with a similar board?any recommendations for a new one? (all mine are > 20 years old, and never had a problem with 'em)I moved everything over to the Archer board and problems went away.

author: JohnnyBerg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 08:26:59 am
content: I had some bad experiences with breadboards to. I tried cheap Chinese one, and the more expensive types from reputable resellers. After some usage, contacts go loose. I see you have a potentiometer on it. When that comes off, the contacts are gone.Besides that, I always had a fight with SMD components. I try to order only SMD and then breadboarding is difficult.I ended up with making my own Arduino centered SMD prototype board. First samples should come in any moment now. I will post a foto if I have them. For now, an impression:Bottom:

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 09:28:53 am
content: Quote from: radiomog on February 17, 2015, 03:50:49 amYes. Everyone that has ever used them. Hate the damn things. Too much unpredictable R, L, and C.Much prefer theprofessionalprototype construction techniques found inhttp://www.linear.com/docs/4138for example figures 32 and 65. (Edited to correct the link to AN-47, sigh)BTW, that application note is very widely referenced, and everyone should know what's in it and why - even if it is only to recognise and avoid problems.

author: picandmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 09:31:47 am
content: Its well known that breadboards have limitations and cause just the sort of problems you describe.Old boards where the internal contacts become weak and dirty are typical of such errors, so using decent quality new ones should improve things.Also, many do not appreciate that the technical design limitations of a breadboard is about 1mhz and that it creates extra capacitance.Using crystals with high frequencies and their small capacitors with very thin leads in breadboards are a well known cause of problems.While many folk use them for all sorts of complex circuits, for serious development work, consider soldering onto vero / strip / perforated boards.Also be aware that the jumper leads can be another source of problems, they are so cheap and many of the hidden joints where the cable attaches to the pin can be very poor / hi resistance or even not there at all !If you stack Arduino boards and shields be aware that many of those pins have a limited number of connections, if you check the manufacturers specs of the pins, some have as little as 60 connections before the plating is worn to bare metal and possible bad contact.Put all those potential problems together and if you are unlucky you get the typical errors you describe.

author: picandmix
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 09:40:02 am
content: Quote from: tggzzz on February 17, 2015, 09:28:53 amIs that the correct link ?

author: Pjotr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 09:58:54 am
content: Master the art of "hard" wiring

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 10:03:26 am
content: 3M breadboards are probably the best, but pricy

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 10:40:44 am
content: Quote from: picandmix on February 17, 2015, 09:40:02 amNo, sigh. Edited above, and corrected link to AN-47 ishttp://www.linear.com/docs/4138

author: george graves
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 11:18:04 am
content: The quality varies widely. I also suspect that some of the Chinese ones have a oil residue on the them for stamping and cutting the sockets. (the colored ones)Dave was using on in his precision constant current generator videos (not the dummy load ones) - and it bothered me the whole time. But it seems as if it didn't matter in that case. Maybe he got lucky with his. But I have one that is utter garbage.Get use to throwing them out - or at least I have.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 11:23:56 am
content: Quote from: Pjotr on February 17, 2015, 09:58:54 amPlacing resistors on that would scare the bananas out of me. Did I accidentally short out a lead against the top-side plane? Mind you I tend to finnick over such things anyway.

author: Pjotr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 11:57:09 am
content: Yes, don't consume to much coffee

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 05:13:15 pm
content: Quote from: quarks on February 17, 2015, 10:03:26 amThey're certainly one of, if not the best. Another quality brand would be Global Specialties. Wisher (10,000 insertion cycle rated versions) are also decent according to others in the forum. Think better materials & manufacturing.Personally, I try to be aware of it's rated wire size and stay under it (i.e. if it's rated for a max of 20AWG, I don't go any larger than 22AWG).Quote from: Whales on February 17, 2015, 11:23:56 amFWIW, there are different types available. Stripboard, copper pad per hole (may/may not be plated through to the other side), and copper-less for example.Take a look athttp://www.veroboard.com/to get an idea of ^ (photos should tell you a lot). Other companies and products out there as well, including for SMD and SMT to PTH (Schmartboard for example; on the expensive side, but they do offer some interesting little boards; worth a look just to get an idea as to what's available out there).

author: paulie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 06:16:43 pm
content: Back in the 70's when I was young and foolish (now old and foolish) experience with Global Specialties and more recently friends Ebay specials showed what a bad idea those are. Basically once you plug in a wire or component from then on you cannot use a thinner one reliably. Then there's the Murphy factor, they may be somewhat functional for trivial screwing around but any project of high importance will be doomed by intermittent contact. Intermittent because flat failure is too easy to troubleshoot.It's solder and deadbug for me because it don't take much longer than farting around stripping wires or bending leads and it's orders of magnitude more reliable. Also mostly SMD these days which ain't so hot on those plug boards.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 10:37:57 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on February 17, 2015, 05:13:15 pmI tend to exclusively use tinned through-plated isolated-pad FR4 boards because they areridiculously cheap off ebay(and much nicer than the untinned single-sided FR2 ones). Thanks for this link -- I'm salivating over the varieties.

author: Philbywhizz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 17, 2015, 11:30:45 pm
content: Quote from: Pjotr on February 17, 2015, 09:58:54 am(I'm a newbie, so this might be a dumb question) - I've often seen these kind of layouts and have wondered what type of wire is used to link the components together? (the thin blue wire in your picture).I've used simple jumper wire (you know the type that come precut with breadboard kits), but I find them at times too thick or bulky to get into tight spaces.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 01:36:50 am
content: Quote from: Philbywhizz on February 17, 2015, 11:30:45 pmLooks like30AWG Wire-Wrapping Wireto me.

author: rqsall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 08:26:26 am
content: Quote from: Whales on February 17, 2015, 10:37:57 pmI find the soldering of wires to the back of these boards (whether it's strip, pad, or whatever) a rather hopeless endeavour. Is there a trick to that? Glueing them down with super glue before soldering perhaps so I don't burn my fingers trying to hold down a 1/4" piece of wire while the solder cools down? Or is this just the way it is?

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 10:18:34 am
content: Pre-tin the wire's end and the pad. Then you don't need a hand to apply solder and you can keep the wire in place until it cools enough to stay solid. Very small pliers or tweezers help hold wires in situations where they get too hot to do by hand.

author: JohnnyBerg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 10:34:07 am
content: Quote from: Whales on February 18, 2015, 10:18:34 amYep!Furthermore, some planning may help also, otherwise one ends up with a big spaghetti!And a lot of coffee, of course

author: rqsall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 11:15:05 am
content: Quote from: Whales on February 18, 2015, 10:18:34 amWell, I only recently bought a set of tweezers for on the bench, so I guess that's what was missingThanks.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 04:48:37 pm
content: Quote from: rqsall on February 18, 2015, 08:26:26 amPretty much anything stick like will allow you to hold down the wire while soldering (pre-tinning will really help as well). Commercial aids would includeorange sticks(or cuticle sticks, chop stick, ...), nylon or metal spudger (example), or fork ended solder aid (see attached photo). Fork-end also allows you to make nice looking bends as you route.Beau Tech in particular offers some kits that might be worth looking into (SH120andSH121).

author: Pjotr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 06:12:09 pm
content: Quote from: Philbywhizz on February 17, 2015, 11:30:45 pmIt is 30 AWG Kynar isolated wire-wrap wire. But for 0.5mm pitch components it is still too thick. For that you need 32 AWG, but it is less common and way more expensive. Be careful what you order. Regular Teflon isolated wire-wrap wire will not work, it is very difficult to strip that wire by hand. Use the special variants with Kynar or Tefzel isolation. Those are for automated wire-wrapping and strip a lot easyer.Quote from: rqsall on February 18, 2015, 08:26:26 amSTRONG WARNING:Never use regular super glue for this!When heated up with a soldering iron, toxic cyanide fumes will evaporate. Years ago a colleague mounted an array of ceramic feed-troughs in a tin HF box with super glue. After soldering wires to it, he was knocked down for a few days with heavy headaches and nausea!

author: rqsall
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 06:50:32 pm
content: Thanks for the warning.I think I just have to work on my technique here. Experience with planning, so I don't have to take the wires out and reroute them. I'm still not quite sure on how to pre-tin non-braided wire sufficiently, but I'll figure something out.Thanks for he spudger tip... found this link while googling for it:http://www.instructables.com/id/The-Greatest-Electronics-Tip-I-Know-The-Spudger/

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 07:02:37 pm
content: When planning to use those pad per hole type proto-boards, lay out your circuit using something like Diptrace. Pretend you're doing a single sided board, so you can minimize jumpers. Setting the grid to 0.1" and using straight lines for traces and 90 degree angles for the bends will help out a lot when you go to build it.

author: SArepairman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 07:02:59 pm
content: I wasted a whole day before because of a bad breadboard. I ended up doing lab equipment tests after replacing various things...At least I learned what various chips do when their critical pins are floating...I highly recommend not using to-220 packages on it directly.

author: jlmoon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 18, 2015, 08:26:36 pm
content: Quote from: Pjotr on February 17, 2015, 09:58:54 amI love hard wiring, easy to make patches to your design. If you're slick you can make pretty decent low noise circuits too, just have to watch how you run your power and ground circuits.

author: mikron
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 08:49:37 am
content: Quote from: Whales on February 17, 2015, 10:37:57 pmGood deal. Thank you for that tip!

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 03:17:28 pm
content: You can also get them in various sizes, which can be handy. These are similar to ones I've bought in the past:http://www.ebay.com/itm/40-pcs-Double-side-Protoboard-Circuit-Prototype-DIY-PCB-Board-2x8-3x7-4x6-5x7cm-/261258390614

author: Pjotr
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 03:29:16 pm
content: About those boards: Don't use plated trough ones. Those are difficult to rework due to the filled holes with solder. This is especially true for the SMD ones with 1/20" pitch. The holes suck up to much solder AND heat. Use the non plated through epoxy boards with HAL tin finish. The pads adhere much stronger to the epoxy boards than the phenolic (brown) boards when heated up at soldering.

author: Whales
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 11:03:26 pm
content: I agree it's harder to remove parts on through-hole plated boards, but I still prefer them as I get less lifted pads when reworking and overall parts are held in better.Technique to make rework easier: never bend component leads after soldering them to use them as 'connections'. Always trim them short and solder a separate wire (or the bit you just cut off) as a connection on the back. This way removing a part is much simpler and you don't have to cut it out and leave straggly wire bits soldered in.This sounds like it's a lot more effort but to me it seems to take about the same amount of time. The struggles you avoid later easily make up the time difference.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 19, 2015, 11:20:25 pm
content: Hmm, I'll have to try it that way next time. I almost always use component leads to make connections and traces, but I did learn to never twist wires or leads together before soldering them - way too hard to undo connections made that way. I just touch them together and glue them with solder.Quote from: Whales on February 19, 2015, 11:03:26 pm

author: JohnnyBerg
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 20, 2015, 06:55:56 pm
content: At the beginning of this thread I showed some vaporware of my smd prototype breadboard. Today the boards arrivedback:To see if I was able to prototype, I made a Arduino nano:There is always room for improvement, I used some wires that I had lying around.I am quite happy with the result.I don't want to hijack this thread, so I will do a separate thread on how I made the board, from design to production.