Cheapest PnP machine that can place >5mm parts?  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Rat_Patrol
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2022, 07:46:44 pm
content: For one of my dedicated small batch lines, I use Charmhigh 48VBs. They have a problem where they cannot place SMD electrolytics, and the vision system can't handle the large PLCC68 chip carriers the board uses (or even smaller PLCC 28 carriers for whatever reason). So, one of us has to place components by hand. We are talking a grand total of 6 different components.What is the cheapest desktop PnP machine that can handle (or be made/forced/modified to handle) these taller/bigger components on both large reel (can make my own reel holder) and tube (can make my own tube holder). LitePlacer is out unless they have added in feeders.Ideas?

author: mon2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 27, 2022, 08:31:30 pm
content: If you have the room & hydro - consider the Assembleon Emerald-X = Yamaha YV88X - older but very stable machines. We have the Emerald-X and after assorted tweaks, love the machine. In the future considering their line for expansion.I know that you could have picked up a working machine (same) + LCS tray elevator for < $10k from the Branford auction a few weeks ago. We picked up 30++ feeders for very low cost + shipping.Consider to contact: IBESMT in Texas (great people to work with !!) / QY-SMT (Shenzhen) - has some nice equipment on their website. Feeders are relatively low cost, reliable and parts are available for service. This forum and the SMTNET.COM Forum could share more details and offer assistance if you need it.You can also contact Trans-Tec USA who reps the line for refurb machines with support from the factory. Just know that brands like Yamaha / Juki, etc. are in a league of perfection of their own.

author: 48X24X48X
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2022, 01:07:13 am
content: My HW-T4-50F handles up to 7 mm, tried up to 6 mm. It's not really desktop though. Got it for $6.3K last time but I think it shoot up to $7.5K now but able to run on both pneumatic and electric Yamaha CL feeder. The CHMT48VB itself is not small in comparison. Bovi's new T4F (which is Kayo in the international market) is a machine without the top cover but has a Z-axis travel of 38 mm (so basically in theory it can do half of that as component maximum height). It is around RMB42800 (~$6.4K) on Taobao and weighed only 110 kg which is closer to the your CHMT48VB. But, it's not available yet on the international market unless you know someone from Bovi but I expect Kayo to offer this sometime in the future. It runs solely on pneumatic Yamaha CL feeder though. Basically if you want anything that can place taller components, you need to see if the head construction uses individual z-axis motor. If it is being shared by 2 nozzle, the travel height is half of what a single motor can provide in terms of the height.

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2022, 02:06:15 am
content: Quote from: mon2 on May 27, 2022, 08:31:30 pmNote that the Assembleon "Gem" series all need 3-phase power, as far as I know.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2022, 02:48:43 am
content: Kayo machines will do up to about 10mm component height. You simply fit a different (supplied) nozzle holder but there is a trade off in accuracy/concentricity (which generally doesn't matter for high components as rarely do they have fine pitch).

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2022, 11:04:31 am
content: Quote from: mon2 on May 27, 2022, 08:31:30 pmI've been given the opportunity to pick up a YVL88II for a good price so am thinking of supplementing my Kayo 1706. As far as I can tell this is the non-X Emerald, but both seem to run the DOS based OS. Is that what yours has? Do you still find that ancient OS to be easy to use? Is it still possible to pickup and use the offline programming software on modern computers?What is a typical placement rate you find that you achieve?

author: mon2
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 28, 2022, 07:34:55 pm
content: Hi.1) Yes, our machine is DOS based but we do not have any serious issues with this. Personally grew up in that era and have coded many pieces of code on Borland / Turbo C to test / program the in-system memory devices on our products for the past 35+ years.2) Sharing with you the files for our machine - do review the english user manual which I would gather will be very similar to your machine:https://we.tl/t-sZVeENpMiIManuals are gold and not easy to source. If you are jumping into this machinery, do you have support from the vendor ?How many on-hours on the machine ? Ours was purchased over 12 years ago and we paid > $100K USD (yes, in hindsight should not have). The local sales reps are the pits for most of our equipment. The new reps are nice but they are smelling that we will be expanding. TBH, we could not run our machinery for more than a minute or so without some error code and beeps from hell on the unit. Just got frustrated and left the line idle for many years. True story. Only during covid did we jump in deep and investigated and repaired any fault. No thanks to the factory (who was there for our 'free support') but as we do not know what to ask, it was pointless. The faults were 99% with the hardware they installed and sold us. In hindsight, the machine was used (~3000 hours) and the feeders were broken. This was a key point of this machine.As we could train for the components and set them up -> as soon as the feeders fetched the parts for the RUNNING (aka live production mode), the pull-back tape gears would latch up due to missing teeth (like the MAD comics mascot) and exert too much force so machine would complain. I am still blown away with what this dated machine can do AFTER the repairs.We are placing Lattice 1.4*1.4mm WLCSP devices with this machine. Have tested down to 1.0mm * 1.0 mm size parts (XSON LDOs) without issues. You will need a special nozzle (~$30) from Shenzhen. Many parts in Asia. Many will also b*tch that the machine is 'old' buy a newer one...just buy the parts you need from them and move on. Everyone wants your money so they will be like real estate agents - swarm to you when they smell money. We had that when we were buying our building for our business. Could not believe how many local agents came to our business to get the sale..You will need feeders - auctions are great once you feel comfortable with fixing the gears, springs, if required. As noted earlier, we bought 5 and 10 packs of feeders for < $ 50 per batch. The packaging and shipping is another story since we were unable to go to the auction site for the pickup.Do some homework on the actual unit but overall we like our machine. We do not optimize our line for the best throughput but you can do so if you wish. For our unit we have 2 heads = FNC head system and have a front side camera near the feeders & Fine camera for BGA, etc. use.Will the vendor install this unit for you ?Who will help you with the technical support - when required ? We purchased our from the factory when the economy was soft and many closures worldwide so we have lifetime technical phone support. We will consider next equipment from Yamaha - eyeing the YSM20 or Juki RX-8. Yamaha is more universal where Juki cannot support taller components and is a chip shooter (ie. 0201 / 0402, etc. components with low height).BTW - with the special nozzle, we did place 01005 parts with our Emerald-X - the rep could not believe it -> we placed the caps from Arrow between the 0.4mm pitch WLCSP balls in a matrix. Have the the test board @ work and can post a pic next week as a FYI.Will you receive feeders with the purchase ? Which nozzles ? Is the machine calibrated ? What is the warranty ?I know that we had a very rough start with our machinery and lost out on many opportunities. The industry knows that it was shameful for them to sell the equipment we purchased at top dollar (Heller 1809EXL - bought new - less than 200 hours and broken - Shanghai junk with illegal wiring for the Canadian market; the local hydro inspector forced the tech to rewire with CSA wiring or take it back; had a broken thermocouple board for which of course factory does not have a schematic). Really ? As a mfr you own the IP yet do not know how it works ? Bought 2 spare working controllers from IBESMT at very fair prices. They are on our go-to company list and respect them a great deal.The Heller local rep would not reply to our concerns after the sale. Nasty bunch. Steve Miller Band was inspired by them - 'take the money and run'.Moving forward - our next machine we want the ability to support ~100k CPH - whether we use it of no concern to the sales staff that want to pitch what they are stuck with. We have over 1,000 PCBAs to date and have spent hundreds of thousands on outsourcing to the wrong companies. We 100% test every PCBA so always catch their errors but when they deny ownership, it is not easy to digest. ISO certified my arse. We are an engineering company first and use the line for our proto and small batch builds to test out concepts quickly before sending to a larger but capable shop.JUKI is supposed to be a diehard machine to consider as well. Do visit the SMTNET.COM forum to ask around from folks that have waaaay more experience than we do. Since our repairs, we have cranked out well over a thousand PCBS with very high quality of production. We use the Loctite GC-10 solder paste and recommend it highly.Post more details and do your homework before jumping in. Do not get taken like we know we did. We used to trust everyone and after this ordeal, we trust no one.

author: Mangozac
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: May 29, 2022, 01:09:40 am
content: Quote from: mon2 on May 28, 2022, 07:34:55 pmThanks so much for the comprehensive reply! The information you sent is indeed priceless and after having a read of the manual I have a better feel for its capabilities.We would be purchasing through a reputable vendor but it's still "as-is" with no warranty. The pricing reflects this. It is about to be removed from a local, functioning line due to the company upgrading. Includes feeders, but our Kayo machine uses CL feeders so we already have plenty.Having cut my teeth on the Kayo 1706 I do feel very familiar with the ins and outs of pick and place machines, so even tracking down faults doesn't intimidate me too much. From reading the manual though I'm unconvinced that there would be much benefit in swapping from the Kayo to this. Certainly the Yamaha has some better software features but nothing really earth shattering. The difference in 20 years of technology between the two is quite obvious. No ATC on the Kayo machine but this isn't really an issue with 6 heads.