Anti 'Made in China' Household - Is it Possible? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2014, 11:24:07 pm
content: I think back to all the cheap devices and products I've thrown out in my life and hear stories from others about their things failing. For many years I've viewed products labelled 'Made in China' with quite a bit of scepticism and bias, perhaps rightly so. Right now I'm in the process of building my first home which means I'm buying new appliances and toys for myself. So far in the list I have:Fridge -Made in Australia(Electrolux)Washing Machine & Dish Washer -Made in Germany(Siemens)Cooktop -Made in Australia(Highland)Microwave -Made in Thailand(Sharp)Television -LCD Panel Made in Japan, Assembled in China(Sharp)These are all 'big ticket' items which I expect to last well beyond their warranty period. But it got me thinking, what about the smaller stuff like light globes, plug packs, vacuum cleaner etc... How easy (or hard) is it to completely avoid products manufactured in China?Now I know there are a lot of massive companies producing products in China under strict quality control so it's a bit harsh to tarnish everyone with the same brush. But seeing China on a label doesn't exactly instil confidence in me and dodgy products with the fake CE mark make me shudder (apparently it means 'China Export' - Who would have thought!)What are your tips when buying products that won't fall apart or perform poorly?Is their anyone out there who throws away the AC Adapters that came with their products and substitutes it with another?Is there something which you simply will never, ever buy?

author: retiredcaps
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 13, 2014, 11:39:34 pm
content: Quote from: n45048 on September 13, 2014, 11:24:07 pmI normally never participate in these types of threads and won't post/read any more than this one comment, but regardless of where things are manufactured or who makes them, I can suggest 2 things.1) Get a credit card that automatically extends or doubles the initial manufacturer's warranty. Obviously, read the fine print and try to get a card with no annual fee.2) In North America, Costco has a very generous return policy (with or without receipt) and on certain items automatically doubles the manufacturer's warranty or provides areasonable(i.e not rip off) extended warranty option.For example, TVs sold at Costco have a 2 year warranty. You can then extended that warranty to 5 years for $30 to $100 depending on the initial price of the TV. If you buy a TV over $1000, the extended warranty is $100 for a total of 5 years.Thus, if you buy a $3000 TV, you can get 5 years total warranty for $20/annually. Again, read the fine print and conditions may not apply where you reside.EDIT: Costco sells most of the items you listed above.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2014, 11:42:59 pm
content: I would have to say that probably everything you have listed is made using materials, components, and/or sub-assemblies from china. I believe it impossible to do what you want.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 13, 2014, 11:49:41 pm
content: Quote from: retiredcaps on September 13, 2014, 11:39:34 pmThanks for making the exception on this occasion :-)You raise some valid points. Although I don't use credit cards (and I never will). Secondly, there's something about having to rely on an extended warranty that doesn't sit right with me. Fair enough if a product is genuinely faulty and it fails early in its life, the warranty is there to cover it. But beyond that "burning in period" I feel that a good, high quality, well built product should last many years beyond the initial warranty period. After all, isn't that the point of warranty; to warrant against defects, rather than dictating or indicating the working life of a product?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 12:45:47 am
content: Quote from: n45048 on September 13, 2014, 11:49:41 pmQuote from: Lightages on September 13, 2014, 11:42:59 pmIMO the only assurance you have is to select major brand/s as they have a reputation to uphold.That way hopefully any substantial faults/failures result in product recall.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 12:51:40 am
content: It is a possible mission. I do not intentionally exclude any particular country but we only have a few China made durable goods, and almost all household goods are imported in Singapore. From my 25 year of limited ownership experience, go for German made or German brand. Japan goods made in Thailand cannot last, the parts are not the same as Japan made.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 12:56:03 am
content: It's possible, don't buy anything!

author: Mechatrommer
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 12:58:52 am
content: Quote from: n45048 on September 13, 2014, 11:24:07 pmask in forum, friends and honest dealers. in short.. get educated.i have fridge, wall fan, washing machine, tv and pretty everything that i can get from Sharp. thats the trusted brand for big ticket items. as for small ticket items, i'll get Cheapo China, i'll sue anybody that try to prohibit me from buying from China. some China cheapo are quite good in my sense. just a small tinkering, soldering and re-arrangement i can get a long lasting product. it becames alot cheaper just skipping some simple process such as gluing on some component. i wasted probably a 1 cent glue and small amount of time and effort, but i can save hundreds of dollar from buying "certificated" items. extended warranty is not my type either, when the thing falls apart, its time to take it apart, i believe that should be a prequisite to become eevblog forum member or any other electronic based forum.any effort to ban china product is not "free neutral" economy, encouraging monopoly, prejudice or the like. let it be free will and let the users decide which product to buy from. ymmv.

author: German_EE
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 09:50:14 am
content: To add to your list, Bosch domestic appliances which are all made in Germany to DIN specifications.IKEA furniture may not be made in China but some items are made in Belarus which also has a questionable human rights record. Your call.Viessmann heating boilers, also made in Germany.Various automobile manufacturers with plants in Europe including Honda, Toyota, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Citroen, Renault, Peugeot, Volvo, Fiat and SeatHameg, Rohde & Schwarz, TTi (maybe) and Marconi test equipment. Not sure about Antex soldering equipment, they used to be British. Check Stanley tools, they might still be British.Philips lighting products used to be made in the EU but I am not sure now. Check Osram.If I think of other items I will make another post.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 10:10:57 am
content: Quote from: German_EE on September 14, 2014, 09:50:14 amI thought this too, until I saw their cheaper gear with a "Made in China" label printed on it. It seems the expensive Bosch stuff is still made in Germany but the cheaper models are not. The quality difference of the plastics and buttons is noticeable.I have to say, the best car I have ever driven was a Volvo and it will be my next car. I have been disappointed in Volkswagen lately though!

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 10:23:49 am
content: Quote from: n45048 on September 14, 2014, 10:10:57 amSo far I found German brands made in China give very good value for money so far. It is silly to exclude based on manufacturing country.

author: SL4P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 10:32:46 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on September 14, 2014, 10:23:49 amAgree completely.(sorry - missed a 'quote')

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 10:42:14 am
content: People should know how to quote instead of making it seem other people said what they are saying.

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 12:12:14 pm
content: Quote from: n45048 on September 13, 2014, 11:49:41 pmWhy not?In addition to the extra legal protection, using a credit card instead of a debit card could save you a lot of money, particularly if you get one that offers cash back on purchases. The important thing is to set it up to automatically pay off the full balance every month, so you aren't tempted to use it to get into debt.QuoteI'm not sure how taking an extended warranty 'dictates' anything - it's just a limited form of insurance.It's true that "good, high quality, well built products" should (and probably would) last for many years, but modern consumers would rather have "good enough, acceptable quality, cheaply built products" for a quarter of the price. Buying the best is great, but not many people can afford to do that with everything they own.Personally I would never pay for an extended warranty, but if you don't use them you need to keep a cash reserve to replace the products that do fail. Sticking the money you would have used to buy all those warranties in a separate savings account isn't a bad plan.

author: apelly
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 01:01:04 pm
content: Don't feed the trolls, team.

author: onlooker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 01:17:46 pm
content: QuoteThen, you will be in for a surprise. Volvo is now owned by a Chinese car maker. Most surely, they are going to use some Chinese suppliers.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 01:22:56 pm
content: I drive an older VW, which was mostly made in South Africa. Spares are mostly non OEM, and mostly are likely made in China, but are good enough. Some parts are made in Germany, brake parts are still made in South Africa, along with tyres if I look for locally made tyres ( and by locally made I mean made 800m away from work by whatever Dunlop is called now), and the fuel I use is either locally made by SAPREF, or imported from Portugal ( I asked the Engen technical for country of origin) so a lot is not made in China, and it is a quite reliable used car.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 01:53:38 pm
content: QuoteDepending on what you meant by "Made in China".It is highly likely that that fridge of yours has a motor made in China, for example.It is quite easy to buy local brands - or to avoid brands from a particular country.In this global economy, however, it is incredibly difficult to avoid any content from China.You can ignore it and try to fill good about a local brand with made-in-China parts in it but I am not sure what it gets you.It may make sense for you to think about why you want to avoid made-in-China in the first place.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 02:37:45 pm
content: I think its difficult to not get anything in a product today that isn't made in another country.End-users are not privvy to where part are sourced nor if the source aggregates from different countries. What of the source of raw material?The standard of 'made in' is not uniform in all countries: in the USA, even the definition is vague:http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus03-complying-made-usa-standardAnyway, a good rubric for anyone is to get quality regardless of where its made. As shown on eevblog for years, teardowns and user experience show you can find good value from Made in China items.What you see from China is mostly consumer grade products. It does not have a monopoly is professional sectors. Although its parts could make it into their supply chain, the nature of tasks required does not tolerate poor quality. Markets with a dearth of China products are military, health, aerospace, industrial chemical, power, marine except consumer grade marine. Its mostly US or EU made.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 03:24:29 pm
content: Actually I'm moving in the different direction: Ordering directly from China. I'm buying the same product if I go to the store on the corner. I went to buy a faucet aerator this weekend (Brico store), they wanted to sell me one for 10 euros. It looked like a total ripoff. The thing was made in china.So I went to ebay, and looked it up. The same thing was sold for 1.26 dollars, the fraction of the price.Tell me why do we have to pay 10 times for something? It is not ten times better, it is the same thing, and you cannot buy better, there is just none.Also, recently I've read an article how making a phone costs 4 dollars more if you make it in the USA, compared to china. Because everything is automated. They still make it there, becasue the factory (ab)uses 30.000 workers, and there is just no single point in the "west" hemisphere where they could get that kind of semi-trained manpower.Dont get me wrong, I'm all for production in Europe/USA/Japan/Australia. I'm very proud that almost all of my elecrtonics designs are manufactured in the EU. But the consumer market cannot handle the same output.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 06:53:41 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on September 14, 2014, 02:37:45 pmYou make an excellent point here and I guess that's where I've been spoilt a bit. Most of my IT, audio and video gear is "Professional" grade. You won't find any of it at your local JB Hi-Fi or Harvey Norman store.To address some of the points other users have made; Of course I understand components and parts will inevitably come from China, that's mostly unavoidable. I also acknowledge the reasons some products are made there (cost of labour, industry etc...) and the history of manufacturing in other countries (e.g.: Japan).My focus was to discuss those products that were actuallymadein China. Not reputable products which might be assembled or otherwise be made with components which originate from China, I think the quality standards are generally much more stringent with the latter.Then of course you have the extreme end of the scale along the lines of cheap and outright dangerous products (for example: USB chargers, LED lights, etc...) that have absolutely no regard for anything but minimising costs and maximising profits, there is no reputation to be upheld there!I'm not sure about you guys, but after doing my homework, I'll almost always settle for the more expensive item made in Australia, USA or Europe over a cheaper item made in Asia (and I don't mean buying $200 monster video cables either!)

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 07:47:49 pm
content: Made in China industrial equipment is getting better, and in a few iterations will likely be better than the USA made stuff. Things like PLC units that have 2 languages ( Chinese and English) displays are getting cheaper and more common, though you sometimes wonder who wrote the manual, and if the translator actually spoke English at all. But it does the job, and generally is a lot cheaper than the USA made stuff ( which actually is made in China or India or Mexico or Pakistan these days) and spare parts are only a cargo flight away, same as the US parts.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 14, 2014, 11:48:29 pm
content: QuoteWithout defining exactly what you meant by "made", the discussion is pretty pointless.QuoteIt is not clear if you are "anti made-in-China / Asia", or "anti low quality".It is dumb, shall I say, to be anti made-in-anywhere for its own sake. It is representative of a person not being able to evaluate something on its merits, being able to reason and being able to think critically."anti low quality" on the other hand, is wise.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2014, 12:30:01 am
content: Quote from: apelly on September 14, 2014, 01:01:04 pmYou are proven right.

author: Unknown
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: September 15, 2014, 08:25:52 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on September 14, 2014, 11:48:29 pmFor your benefit, let's go with the dictionary definition of"built, formed, or shaped in a specified way".But seriously, if you apply a simplistic view to my original post, yes, perhaps "dumb" is the right word.My intention was to strike up conversation about a very broad topic and hear how others interpret it and their personal and professional thoughts. I shouldn't need to point out the obvious caveats. It's a bit like racism, in that there is usually an element of truth in there and of course exceptions to the generalisations exist.There is a reason why a wise man named it "Wan Hung Lo"

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2014, 09:44:38 am
content: QuoteIf you object others calling it dumb, you probably will agree that it is unwise to do so.Extremely unwise, in my view.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2014, 09:47:27 am
content: Just an example: a BMW X5 I just looked at over the weekend has 2/3 of its parts from Germany, minimal amount from North America.The rest? unknown and I am sure a substantial amount of it from China - which is the largest auto parts manufacturer / exporter in the world.Sure, you can take a simplistic view to it, at your own risk.

author: dfmischler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2014, 10:13:41 am
content: There are people not far from me who find it easier than most to avoid Chinese products. No, I don't mean thelocal Native Americans, but theAmish.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2014, 10:26:30 am
content: QuoteTo borrow from a commercial: avoiding made-in-China is so easy even cavemen can do it.That's the risk of being simplistic.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2014, 07:09:17 pm
content: I learned this today at a conference: the golden combination in manufacturing today is designed in California + made in china.

author: poorchava
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2014, 07:41:49 pm
content: Made in [not China] means only that the last major manufacturing step was done in that country. Such process is usually putting together several bugger parts, all of which were made in China. That's how it usually looks anyway.I doubt that for example all of the injection molded parts in your fridge were made in Germany, or that all metal castings in your Japanese car were manufactured in Japan.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 15, 2014, 09:01:31 pm
content: "Made in [not China] means only that the last major manufacturing step was done in that country."Your made-in-XYZ is more like "assembled-in-XYZ". I would argue that for many of ours products, assembly is usually one of the least value-add steps. Iphone for example has about $5 in each handset attributed to China's assemblly. The bulk of the vaule-add is done by Apple, Qualcomm, Samsung, Sony, ....Take cars for example. The X5s. Are assembled in the US - no one calls them made-in-USA. Most Japanese cars sold in the US are assembled in the US - no one calls them made-in-USA. Many GM/ford/chrysler cars sold in the US are. Assembled in Canada or. Mexico. Yet, they are classified as made-in-USA.Again, the whole discussion is meaningless if one doesn't define what "made-in-XYZ" means.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2014, 07:50:08 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on September 15, 2014, 09:01:31 pmFor most purposes "Made in XYZ" is well defined by labelling regulations, but its generally defined to be the least useful measure of a product's origins - Its usually the place the last stage of production occurred. I know European producers who at one time had their cartons made in Japan, so their products could ship in a box that said "Made in Japan". Regulations were changed to stop that kind of deception. What we have now is consistent, but isn't a whole lot more useful.For the last 25 years the vast majority of heat pumps have been made in Thailand or China, yet most fridges say "Made in wherever the pump was assembled with a case". That's being a little deceptive, while following the rules.I recently looked at a high end microwave oven from Panasonic which is "Made in Japan". It turns out to be assembled in Japan from bought in Chinese parts, and uses a super low lifetime magnetron. Forums are full of complaints about it. That's really purposeful deception, as the only purpose of assembly in Japan appears to be to have the "Made in Japan" label. I wonder if this could be the early stages of a trend.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 16, 2014, 09:59:58 am
content: Italian handbags are a great example. 99% of luxury brand handbags are made in China, from a few hundred dollars ones to thousands of dollars.Those bags are shipped to Italy, without accessories (like zip locks or metal clips, or logos) as generics. Then locks are stitched in and dada, you have a "made-in-Italy" handbags.QuoteI think it depends on your definition of "made-in". To me, where most of the value-add activities taking place is where the product is "made" - I cannot care less about where it is assembled or where the parts come from, like engineering or r&d.So by that definition, an iPhone is made in the US, and those italian handbags are made in Italy, and I assume the same for your microwave oven.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 06:52:06 am
content: Quote from: German_EE on September 14, 2014, 09:50:14 amAnother troll on the forum pushing his political

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 07:10:49 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on September 16, 2014, 09:59:58 amQuite a lot of products say "Designed in XYZ. Made in ZYX".Saying the iphone is designed in the US might be OK.... although I'm not sure how much of the design is actually still in the US. Saying something is "Made in the US" just because it was designed there would be pretty weird labelling, wouldn't it?

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 07:11:57 am
content: Quote from: Bud on September 17, 2014, 06:52:06 amHe's not even accurate. IKEA make a lot of stuff in China.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 07:31:04 am
content: Oh yeah, don't forget chopstick too, watch this video till the end ->NOT made in China

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 08:42:40 am
content: Quote from: BravoV on September 17, 2014, 07:31:04 amSo that's where those sub-standard chopsticks we often see in Asia come fromI love the way Oakland has contracted for a bridge from a company that has never built one. China has built more bridges in the last 10 years than the rest of the world built in the last century. You'd think they could have found someone there with a track record.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 11:23:44 am
content: QuoteDepends on your perspective.If you value final assembly over design/engineering/marketing, go with your definition;If you value where the value-add activities take place, go with my definition.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 01:12:44 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on September 17, 2014, 11:23:44 amIf you use the location of the marketers then practically everything can be labelled "Made in <whatever country its being sold in>.". This seems a bizarre definition.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 08:19:35 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 17, 2014, 01:12:44 pmDepends on your perspective.If you value final assembly over design/engineering/marketing, go with your definition;If you value where the value-add activities take place, go with my definition.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 08:26:55 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on September 17, 2014, 08:19:35 pmSo if I take a 100% Chinese product, and merely market it in the US, you think I should label it "Made in USA"? I've seen some funky definitions of "Made in ...", but that's a new one.

author: eas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 09:00:03 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 14, 2014, 12:45:47 amIn my experience, a large percentage of well-established US consumer goods brands failed to maintain quality when they shifted their supply chain to China. In some cases, they seem to be getting things back under control, but I think their brands will be tarnished for decades to come, or if they aren't, they should be.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 18, 2014, 10:13:10 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on September 17, 2014, 08:26:55 pmReproduce here in its entirety purely for your reading enjoyment:QuoteTo borrow a commercial, it is so simple even cavemen understand it,

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 04:55:35 am
content: Quote from: eas on September 18, 2014, 09:00:03 amI agree entirely.I'm quite sure the problem is worldwide, we see it here too in NZ.I think many companies have "dropped the ball" re QC of Asia made goods and as you say, they are "tarnished" for decades. This is common worldwide when "bean counters" opinions are given priority over designers/EE's/technicians.I hear echoes of "I told you so" in company meetings from the tech's, and it takes good leadership to manage the risk.One I am aware of, sources all the componentry and then supplies the Asian fab house in order to reduce the risk.

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 05:07:22 am
content: Quote from: wilfred on September 13, 2014, 11:58:42 pmWell said.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 06:14:49 am
content: Quote from: tautech on September 14, 2014, 12:45:47 amHave you any evidence to support that idea? Each time a big problem occurs with products from China - melamine in baby milk formula, toxic finishes on toys, etc. - people have been paying high prices for big named western brands, only to find cheap shoddy good have been sold with no product safety testing and ongoing QA being conducted by the big global brand. Chinese companies trying to build a global brand, like HuaWei, are rapidly improving their products. OEMs and ODMs selling into global brands are only required to achieve the absolute lowest cost. That forces these suppliers into a race to the bottom, where they eventually have to cut serious corners to survive.

author: belasajgo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 11:01:25 pm
content: In Europe you can find quality brands like Liebherr or Miele, where all the parts of the products are manufactured in Germany and / or Austria (not Australia!).Bosch has today two product series, one "Made in Germany" (actually it should be "components made in China" and "assembled and tested in Germany") sold in Western Europe, and one "Made in <not Germany>" (most of them "assembled in Turkey" with "components made in China") sold in Eastern Europe. Most of the turkish Bosch products don't last as much as the german products. If a german Bosch product works fine for 8-10 years, a turkish Bosch product only works for 2-5 years.Something similar is going on with the Siemens products, once they were a trusted brand, today they also dropped slightly the quality of their products...So if a brand had once a good reputation, it does not mean that you get today the same quality products as a few years ago.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 19, 2014, 11:13:27 pm
content: QuoteI have had a few actually "made in germany" cars. Great driving pleasure, sometimes wonderful engineering, absolutely shitty workmanship.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 07:43:12 am
content: The premise from the OP is too narrow a view. If quality is the only defining factor, most cars on the road will be Rolls Royces or Maybachs.Quality is not the more the better. To make better quality than the customer is willing to buy is foolish. A "good" companies' products should meet the expectation they set in customers' minds.Shoppers who buy quality above all else are equally foolish. What is the point of purchasing facets that last 50 years when the rest of the house is build to last 30? One should purchase products suitable for the tasks and requirements.Don't think of this as "ah, we have a throw away society today...yada yada yada..." Legend has it that Henry Ford troll the junk yards to look at his cars - looking for parts that still works. For example, if the wheel is worn and the brake is good, he went back to reduce the life expectancy of the brake if it reduces over all cost. Implied reasoning is his customer values lower price more than longer lasting. Google "Henry Ford and Savage Yard" and you will find plenty of references to it.Having more quality than the job calls for is but a waste of resources.

author: belasajgo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 09:18:55 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on September 20, 2014, 07:43:12 amYes, from this point of view you are right. But what do you consider the predetermined breaking point of the products nowadays? Isn't it also a waste of resources, to limit the "life" of the products to just a few years, even if they actually could work twice as long or even much longer? This is called the "planned obsolescence"... The well known example for this: the limitation of the printers, that refuse to work after you have printed a predefined number of pages, but the printers are technically working fine.I have a 35 years old russian fridge (yes, it is "Made in Russia") that was working for 35 years and needed to be serviced only once in this time. I can't believe that we say that we are "advancing in technology" but our products nowadays last just about 1/4 of the time that the older products (built before 1990) lasted. Isn't this a waste of resources?

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 12:29:34 pm
content: QuoteYou have to blame the consumers for that.No company in its right mind is going to produce high / low quality goods just because they want to produce high / low quality goods. They produce them because there is a demand for them.Just look at those people who buy from unknown sellers with questionable reputation in order to save a few cents. It is those people that drove the manufacturers to product cheap and often low quality products.As to if it is a waste of resources to produce short-lived / throw-away products, it depends on whose perspective (thus how you define "resources") you share.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 10:08:21 pm
content: Quote from: belasajgo on September 20, 2014, 09:18:55 amre: But what do you consider the predetermined breaking point of the products nowadays?The predetermined breaking point is what the customer asked.The company can determine it by various techniques. Easiest example is (in the USA market) cell phone, x% of customer take advantage of carrier's upgrade. So, they sign up for a NEW two year contract, they get the latest model phone at much much cheaper (from free to 1/6 to 1/4 the no-contract price). So, when more and more are doing that auto-upgrade, there is no point in making the latest phone lasts longer than two years.re: Isn't it also a waste of resources, to limit the "life" of the products to just a few years...No,there are three good reasons to do it:(1) My roof is a 15 year roof. Can I sue my contractor if my roof caved in 16 years later? I would not, but you can bet some will. Artificial limiteliminates liability riskfor the contractor thereby reducing cost and as a result I need to pay him less.(2) Knowing that the roof will self destruct after the 15th year, I can now select materials that can be a potential riskif used longer than15 years. For example, a cheaper tile-glue (not real example) that dries out in 16 years and could in a good gust of wind fly away. The formerly glued on tile becomes a deadly flying projectile. If there is a self-destruct clock, making a decision to use 16-year-glue is perfectly responsible. If there is no self-destruct, it would be irresponsible to introduce a potential hazard.(3) (Speaking from the contractor's perspective) After having satisfied all my implied promises to the consumer)... If I can create a future possible sale , I may be able to lower the price a little. Everyone benefits.Naturally, not all business decisions are made with sound business reasoning. The consumers have to hold the manufacturer responsible. Reducing product-life reduces value of the product, but consumers must choose their purchases carefully.The difference may be subtle, the consumers have to pay attention and decide accordingly. A 15 year roof, is it "a roof that will last at least 15 years" or is it "a roof that last around 15 years and no more" or is it "a roof that last no more than 15 years"? A life-limit puts it in the third type "no more than X years" type. Limiting life isa reduction in value. The company made its decision,the consumers have to make theirs accordingly.Rick

author: belasajgo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 11:11:31 pm
content: The latest thing I had to deal with, where the "planned obsolescence" was visible, was a Fujitsu Siemens LCD screen, where the electrolytic capacitors were positioned right above a heatsink. Even a beginner in electronics knows that electrolytic capacitors should not be positioned near heatsinks, or at least not directly above a heatsink (the heat travels up with the warm air). As you can see on the internet, this is one of the "predetermined breaking point" of this kind of products. Many LCD screens and televisions have this problem, with damaged electrolytic capacitors by heat... This is when engineers are hired not to make a better product, but to make a product that lasts only as long as the warranty.If you change the damaged capacitors, the LCD screen is working again for another two years.

author: 3roomlab
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 20, 2014, 11:56:04 pm
content: i dont think anybody can ever escape not buying anything made in china, is there anything in ISS space station not made in china?

author: eneuro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 12:14:12 pm
content: Quote from: 3roomlab on September 20, 2014, 11:56:04 pmAre you sure it is made by China? Maybe by Aliens caught during Moon space missionsSorry, but that was my first impression when saw this Alibaba man, after watching this and other "secret" videos of aliens bases on the MoonIf you want something high quality DIY and addMade in Homemark

author: denelec
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 03:43:12 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on September 20, 2014, 07:43:12 amThat may explain why, in my father's Ford Taurus, "everything" (head gasket, A/C compressor, exhaust, transmission, etc) broke one thing after another at 100 000km!

author: dfmischler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 11:35:16 pm
content: I heard the same story about Henry Ford sending engineers to junk yards to see what broke too much, and what never broke. They will tell you this at the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, Michigan. I would say he was trying to optimize the vehicle on the price vs reliability curve.Now let's be fair to Mr. Ford. He practically created the market for automobiles among people of average income in the United States, and he was working as hard as he could to get the price down to increase the size of that market. That is not like the car companies in the US today, who are merely trying to increase their own market share.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 21, 2014, 11:53:39 pm
content: QuoteTo me, they are identical: cost minimization is the same as profit maximization. Ask any decent micro economist and he will confirm it for you.

author: dfmischler
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 12:04:53 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on September 21, 2014, 11:53:39 pmI disagree. Somebody who is battling over market share is essentially playing a zero-sum game. An entrepreneur who creates a new market for his innovative product is increasing the amount of wealth in the world, not just shuffling it around.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 12:17:10 am
content: QuoteHow do you think the automakers are battling over market shares? What would be the results of their battling over market shares to consumers?

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 01:57:37 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on September 21, 2014, 11:53:39 pmDannyF, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one...Re: "To me, they are identical: cost minimization is the same as profit maximization. Ask any decent micro economist and he will confirm it for you."That decent micro economist would be wrong.Prior to Ford, automobiles were something the rich guys play with. Along with lowering cost, Ford paid his employees decent salary to ensure they can afford the product(s) they made. In his action, Ford expanded the market place from a "specialty/boutique" market to a consumer market vastly bigger.So while cost minimization may maximize profit, the strategy can also be lower consumer cost for market expansion and/or market share expansion.Which leads back to my other point:In the same manner Ford did, the Chinese product set a new price point. Perhaps not at the quality prior, but they created a new market for those who place price over quality/longevity.IKEA perhaps did the same with furniture also. You may prefer a cherry-wood book case, but plenty of people are happy with the IKEA bookcases.Did IKEA lower the entry point? Most would probably agree. Most also probably agree that IKEA products while not suitable to use to furnish a state room, but certainly has it's place in the market.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 10:15:53 am
content: QuotePrecisely. For a market to be healthy, you need a broad spectrum of products at differing quality / price points.It is bad for everyone if every car ever sold is a BMW, or a Ferrari, however fabulous those vehicles are.It is good to have low quality like the Chevys, or the Ford, etc. offered to the consumers.It is all about offering consumers choices, and satisfying a demand, however / wherever that demand is, geographically or on a quality / price curve.

author: janengelbrecht
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: September 22, 2014, 11:18:36 pm
content: I Will never claim that products made in the US, Australia, Europe, New Zealand are quality.....it depends....Asia...and China indeed...makes a whole lot of quality stuff. And a hole lot of crap are comming out of Europe, US etcCrap is OK btw if you expect it .... if you buy an oscilloscope for 40 dollars you wont expect it to last long or to be nothing else but a toyBut you could expect a 600 dollar Oscilloscope from CHina to live up to your expectationsLook at the price ? Is it too good to be true ? Well it is then

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 11:22:18 am
content: QuoteI think you mostly see two kinds of issues / buyer complaints, China or otherwise:1) buyer stupidity: don't know how to wire up a high power led; don't know how to figure out how things work; ... there is no cure for that.2) sky high expectation unsupported by bottom of the barrel purchase prices: "Why is that my $20 Porsche doesn't run as fast as a real one?", "The vendor doesn't answer every one of my emails to my satisfaction!"... I don't know if there is a cure for that, especially for people who refuse to learn from their mistakes.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 23, 2014, 06:38:40 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on September 23, 2014, 11:22:18 amI can't agree with you more. It always puzzled me why would someone purchase a unbranded item, from an unknown seller, and expects the world of it.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2014, 09:40:11 am
content: Quote from: belasajgo on September 20, 2014, 11:11:31 pmI have worked with several TV makers in China and elsewhere. The target of their is generally that a TV should last 8 years. I wonder what percentage of shipped units reach that goal without serious failures?The two major causes of TV failures seem to be electrolytics and silver plated contacts in high humidity locations.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2014, 11:08:51 pm
content: There was a piece of the evening radio that talked about the current controversial about "made in Italy". The example used was those "made-in-italy" handbags. As I stated earlier, those "made-in-italy" handbags are actually handcrafted in China and shipped to Italy to be stitched with zippers or accessories so that they qualified as "made-in-italy". As a matter of fact, you can buy the exact handbags, from the exact same factory and using the exact same materials, in NYC or SF at a fraction of the cost of their near identical made-in-italy siblings.FTC apparently had some issues with those practices - under US law they don't qualify as "made in italy" as stitching a zipper to the bag doesn't qualify as "substantial transformation". No standards yet in Italy for "made in italy" but they are working on it, according to madeinitaly.org.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2014, 11:27:43 pm
content: Hmm, that probably applies to Italian men shoes.Well, as long as they are good quality does it really matter?It's been a while since I bought myself fancy apparel, since I don't have to impress anyone anymore neither at home nor at work. Maybe if I contemplated climbing the corporate ladder.

author: all_repair
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 24, 2014, 11:50:22 pm
content: The biggest problem is with the crap stuff but is not at crap price. With all the MBA staffed management and marketing department, USA brands lead this crap. The super high pay has to come from somewhere.I am having much better luck with China branded or non-branded tools and appliances than wirh B&D and Sharp stuff.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2014, 01:04:12 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on September 24, 2014, 11:08:51 pmFunny thing is, I think the Chinese tourist are the ones buying them on the streets of Italy...

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2014, 02:12:50 am
content: Quote from: all_repair on September 24, 2014, 11:50:22 pmI agree in general, but I think is not so much "all the MBA staffed management and marketing department" but rather all the not-so-good Finance guys(Ladies). When CFO's takes over as CEO from departing CEO who also was the CFO before he become CEO, you know thelikelyfocus of the company:rule by numbers(which also includes process driven).From an article I read some years ago...3M was known to be one of the top quality/innovation company, but when it turned torule by numbers:You cannot create in that atmosphere of confinement or sameness," Buckley says. "Perhaps one of the mistakes that we made as a company—it's one of the dangers of Six Sigma—is that when you value sameness more than you value creativity, I think you potentially undermine the heart and soul of a company like 3M.In recent years, the company's reputation as an innovator has been sliding. In 2004, 3M was ranked No. 1 on Boston Consulting Group's Most Innovative Companies list (now the BusinessWeek/BCG list). It dropped to No. 2 in 2005, to No. 3 in 2006, and down to No. 7 this year.http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2007-06-10/at-3m-a-struggle-between-efficiency-and-creativityAnother measure CIO Magazine used is who the CIO reports to. If they report to the CEO, it is one kind of company, if they report to the CFO, it is another kind of company.Mind you, many bad apples doesn't mean apples are bad. It is rare, but I have worked with at least a couple of very forward looking Finance guys. One was at the time a CFO. But I have seen more financial guys who felt into the mindset of "one more penny today is better than one more dollar 5 years later."Not that they don't know how to evaluate "future value"as all Finance guys are trained to do that. But they feel "what is the point of big victory years after I would have been promoted away as CEO elsewhere," or "what is the point of big victory years after I am canned for numbers this year!"Rick

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2014, 05:51:00 pm
content: here is another example: iphone6/6+.The purchase price is about $650 - 750?The cost to Apple is $200 - 250.So here is a breakdown of value-add on each iphone soldApple: $450 - 500China: $5The other parts are mostly sourced from the US, Japan and SKorea.Calling it made in China is almost a fraud.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2014, 08:12:31 pm
content: ... on the side this often quoted issue on websites is misleading. This breakdown is just a BOM with "manufacturing" costs. It does not include other cost like product development R&D, firmware, software, license costs, marketing, distribution expenditures and more. As those issues involve human labor, they cost far more than the BOM. Further the actual price is negotiated in private and often, secret.Many of prices listed above are based on typical publicly advertised bulk price, not industrial quantity or private contract prices.For example, consider the iPhone 5S battery, quoted as $3.50.You can check OEM sample bulk prices here:http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?shipCountry=us&shipCompanies=&SearchText=iphone+5s&exception=&minPrice=100&maxPrice=1000&minQuantity=100&maxQuantity=1000&isFreeShip=n&isFavorite=n&isRtl=n&isOnSale=n&isAtmOnline=n&isBigSale=n&similar_style=n&similar_style_id=&CatId=100003570For large volume, the cost per item can be far lower still. Here is an example via Digikey. Consider Apple manufacturing is in 10-100 million pieces.http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/LM324AD/296-9540-5-ND/379835So Apple's profit margin per phone or even the true manufacturing cost, can't really be estimated with any certainty.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2014, 09:39:29 pm
content: QuoteYes, it does: the "value-add" piece.

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 25, 2014, 10:14:15 pm
content: I agree but using such a term you cannot differentiate what is profit, marketing, non-production labor etc., or to which country its distributed: USA or China, or even more countries. Since the BOM is not known with certainty, you cannot know the "value added" percentage, whichever definition you use.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_addedQuote from: dannyf on September 25, 2014, 09:39:29 pm

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 26, 2014, 10:24:43 am
content: QuoteEven if you could know it with certainty, down to the 23rd digit, does it change the basic conclusion?That's called back of the envelope analysis.

author: nukie
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 04:48:37 am
content: I don't understand the purpose of single out a particular country. If you are talking about North Korea or some countries involved in terrorism I understand. To single out such a huge country with so much power today is closed minded. If you wish, you can go remove all the nails and screws that's holding your house together right now. I bet those are made in China.

author: sweesiong78
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 06:11:14 am
content: Quote from: nukie on October 02, 2014, 04:48:37 amagreed....and may I add that this thread has a whiff of xenophobia /stereotyping / prejudice. the OP never made it clear the rationale for avoiding made in china products (and I know some other people who hold this view as well) so all this talk of poor quality, planned obsolescence, suppliers cutting corners etc may just be a red herring.

author: sweesiong78
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 02, 2014, 06:18:22 am
content: Perhaps one of the more honest rationales I've heard of people wanting to avoid made in china products is because they blame it for job losses due to outsourcing and the hollowing of of the manufacturing industry. Certainly I can agree with some aspects of that viewpoint, but avoiding made in XX country products is not likely to bring those jobs back, it would probably be automated.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 11:01:31 am
content: QuoteIt is actually quite rational - fear.In some cases, we are unwilling to compete; in many cases, we are unable to compete. Closing your doors to them becomes a perfectly rational decision for someone in that situation.The only downside is that it accelerates one's demise,

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 05:50:52 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 03, 2014, 11:01:31 amChina is a country on the rise, therefore, it represents the economic danger that is facing the "developed" countries. While on the surface, things are going well in these "developed" countries, but just under the surface, rot is weakening these countries make most citizens of these countries uneasy.If the developed countries are well prepared for the competition, there would be no hostilities. How many newly promoted senior manager are fearful of the new "mail room clerk" as competitor? On the other hand, for those less prepared to compete, a new "mail room clerk" would represent a danger to their own income. What makes us fearful of the China competition is our own deep subconscious realization that we as a nation are not prepared. Our own intuition is right - we got (the proverbial) "dumb and fat" and we are not "in fighting trim". We have individuals excelling but as a nation we are not earning what our living standard demands.Case and point, right this moment I am listening to new economic numbers (USA) just released by the labor department. "Lowest unemployment rate" in the last 6 years - yet in the same report, Labor Participation got lower again. "Unemployment rate" (as USA labor department defines) is basically the recently unemployed. Labor participation is how many working age adults are working. "Labor participation dropped again" means "number of people actually working dropped again". Bare in mind, labor participation rate last month is a 36 years low already and it got worst again this month. Only a nation with arithmetic-illiterate people would celebrating these numbers and we have news reporters celebrating these numbers! The news reporter reading this is labeling this "good news on the job front", "lowest unemployment in 6 years". So, are we prepare to compete when even news reporters can't see simple math logic?Again I cite the PISA scores for math, science, and reading comprehension: China, Hong Kong, Korea, Singapore are persistent top scorers while the USA doesn't rank top-20 in reading and barely rank top-30 with science. The rest of the west are mostly absent from top 10.Manufacturing will return to the west, we just have to dumb ourselves down to be worth less then "they", whoever they may be. So we will be the low-cost manufacturing as we join the new class of nations: "the once developed country."China is a threat only if we allow it to be, and we surely are allowing it based on our current path.

author: sweesiong78
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 11:24:25 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 03, 2014, 05:50:52 pmManufacturing will return but those jobs will be replaced by robots and automation. Even low level design and coding can be automated. Anything on the industrial scale can be more efficiently done by machines.

author: sweesiong78
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 03, 2014, 11:29:17 pm
content: Even low value added service jobs like Starbucks 'barristas'....here in the US they mostly just press a button and place a cup under the machine, or put some premix powder and crushed ice in the blender, and scan your card or smartphone. One could automate this kind of labor with an arduino and some servos.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 12:30:16 am
content: QuoteProbably true.What technology has done is to lower the barriers to competition: rather than competing for a job among your neighbors, people in your city, or your state / country, you are now competing with people half a world away.To maintain your standards of living, you have to find new ways to add value.Take the US for example. High paying jobs are in those sectors that are most competitive (IT, banking, aerospace, pharmaceutical), or difficult to automate (legal services, or healthcare)...That's why there is such an arm's race in education, towards elite schools.That's why also the next 100 years look bleak for the "once developed countries" as they fall more and more behind in educating their young.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 04, 2014, 12:56:55 am
content: A bit OT but just to say that you can't outsource a plumber and you'll pay whatever they want to come to your house as fast as they can.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 07:51:46 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on October 04, 2014, 12:56:55 amIn my view, that is a trap: The (rather common) thinking “I will be an auto-mechanic; they make $100/hour” is a mindset that omitted certain facts in my view. Often overlooked, like auto mechanic, plumbers, barber, etc., can only charge what the market will support. As home ownership decline, the amount they can charge will decline accordingly. That is why an auto-mechanics in India cannot charge 1/10 of what an auto-mechanics in the USA can charge. As our own value (productivity) declines, auto-mechanics and plumber income will decline accordingly to what the market can support. Within their life time, the plumber may be able to charge $500/hr, but by then $500 will not even buy a big-mac.Today, we are borrowing or renting what our parents used to be able to own. Note the increase in “interest only mortgages”. Many think they own a house and a car, in truth, they own a mortgage with little or no equity, and they own a lease (with further obligations) sitting on the drive way they don’t own.The auto market is a leading indicator of the decline in my view. While house/home purchase is typical the biggest purchase one would make in his/her life time, car is the second biggest purchase. But car purchases are made more frequently than house purchase, thus a more responsive indicator.Look at how in the west we are fooling ourselves into still having it. The proof is in the numbers.The following graphs are from KPGM(accounting/consultancy firm): (see attached)You can see that in the USA lease is 1/2 the growth and in Europe lease is the majority of the growth. (Yes, I understand that there are far more people with company cars in Europe than the USA.)Now as compare to China. Their market is actually growing and they actually own their cars. (see attached)Unless we improve our productivity (value), we will continue this decline. We (the western world) are in trouble. If we continue this trend, it is not auto-emission we need to worry about, it is us having to use fire wood from what remains of our forests for winter heat that we should be worrying about. In short, we would drastically increase our pollution because we have no means for the necessities of life let alone means to a clean living.So, of course we should worry about China. They are surpassing us in education and productivity. Yes, we should worry why they can learn from us and are we not learning from them.We in the west don’t need our own version of Mao Zedong; instead, we need our own version of Deng Xiaoping, the sooner we swap our Mao for a Deng the better.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 08:07:30 pm
content: I think the point is that local services are very difficult to outsource, thus less sensitive to foreign competition.Though, that can change - just witness the migration of legal and research jobs overseas. Certain healthcare jobs are to follow, I think.QuoteTwo things contribute to that, neither is sustainable in my view:1) cultural aversion to debt: it is shifting and I think it is shifting fast, among the younger generations.2) less developed consumer finance industry: lending on credit is very risky and very rare in China; secured financing faces legal and enforcement issues there. But both will change as the government there encourages more domestic consumption.QuoteIf you look at the 2012/2008 elections, the income equality movement and persecution of the rich, you would think otherwise.QuoteNot really sure. Deng was successful because there was a crisis (domestically). China was at a point where it either kept on the reforms or became dead. Deng and the country had to make a move;The west is on the wrong path. However, its demise is not imminent. Thus the electorates don't feel the urge to change and cannot elect a true leader with a new vision and new strategy of moving forward.As they often say, the Chinese word for "crisis" is a combination of "crisis" and "opportunity". We cannot have that opportunity without that destructive crisis, unfortunately.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 05, 2014, 09:19:31 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 05, 2014, 08:07:30 pmI was not as clear as I could have been. I understood what the OP meant. My (less than clear) statement was even if out source is not done, the living standard decline will lower the value of these "difficult to outsource" occupations to their comparative value accordingly - if "something" is worth x times that of pre-outsourced USA customer service rep's salary, it will eventually be around x times that of post-outsourced customer service rep's salary even if that "something" itself is never outsourced - that is what the market can support.Part of health care is well on the way to out source. Radiology is a declining occupation in the USA. XRays are emailed to India for interpretation and returned to the USA for face-to-face discussion with the patient.Legal research (those not court-facing) are increasingly being done overseas. Anything easily codified can easily be automated or outsourced.Quote from: dannyf on October 05, 2014, 08:07:30 pmThat is absolutely true and I agree. As they grow, they too will likely forget and move to over-consuming as we have. Fact is they do own it today and we increasingly don't.Case and point (of forgetting) is Hong Kong's Occupy Central occuring now. Even their selection of name for the movement shows a lack of knowledge of current event beyond skin deep. (and to side track myself) They even totally failed to understand the response of the Chinese government. They failed to note the comparative similarity in the choice-of-words in the government's response. They are setting themselves up for failure and hopefully one not as bloody as the Tiananmen square of years passed.Hong Kong was once referred to as a city of 6 million type-A personalities. I think in their successful climb to wealth, they enter the same phase many American kids are in -somemerely enjoying the fruits of their parents' labor and never understood the work it took to grow them. If that "some" grow to as big a percent as we have, we would be in the same boat.Quote from: dannyf on October 05, 2014, 08:07:30 pmYup, since 2008, we now have a 36 year low in labor participation rate. 92.6 million adult Americans not working. Americans being beheaded in the Middle East and in Arkansas USA. Ebola is now state-side. American flag cannot be worn by American students attending American tax payer funded schools. Illegal aliens being placed into locales by the thousands...Demise may not be imminent, but certainly within sight would you say?Quote from: dannyf on October 05, 2014, 08:07:30 pmThe demise is not imminent but unfortunately the demise a mathematical certainty. In the USA, our GDP is around $14 Trillion ($14T for short). Our debt is about $17T, our obligation is around $40T to $60T. So, Debt+Obligation is around $50T to $70T and growing with annual income of merely $14T.If you take China out of the equation, there is no one else in the world with $17T/year for us to borrow from.The only way we can "pay off" our $70T is with inflation. Have you been to a supermarket lately? What was 26oz soup can is now 23oz at the same price. What was 1/2 gallon (1.893L) ice-cream is now 1.5L at the same price... The inflation phase started up the slow ramp.We took a wrong turn. We are still heading the wrong path. Until we correct ourselves, the future does not look good.Deng was special in many ways. Easily the most effective in the second half of the last century as he positively impacted the life of 1/4 of the world. As you pointed out in our 2008 and 2010 elections, we were not too smart. We too are/were electing officials with 1960 style CPC leaning. If that is the choice, I prefer a Deng far over a Mao.

author: sweesiong78
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 06, 2014, 04:37:20 am
content: I just like to throw in Rigol....yeah tek,agilent etc owners might sneer at them right now but their improvement in quality within the last few years is remarkable and I dare say, without them a lot of us would not be owning a DSO right now.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 12:37:18 am
content: QuoteWe have some great leaders as well. I would put Nixon, Clinton, Thatcher and Gorbachev up there.QuoteBoth are great leaders, in different ways. Like Gorbachev, Deng sacrificed his party for the country and brought China into the modern world; Mao exposed the dirty inner works of the "kings" and let everyone know that they are easily fallible. Mao made Deng possible and Deng finished off Mao's legacy.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 01:45:44 am
content: I know it used to be IBM, but Lenovo (now Chinese owned) makes the best PC workstations for any demanding CAD applicationshttp://www.spec.org/gwpg/gpc.data/vp12/sw-perf.htmlThey are always on the top of the list.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 07, 2014, 06:31:12 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 05, 2014, 09:40:20 pmMoJo, actually, I thought I was on point - in explaining the fear of the competition. But I see your point... Thanks

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2014, 02:40:54 pm
content: There is a letter in the wall street journal today regarding the history of "Made in the USA". Apparently the original definition approved by the FTC is 75% or more "content" is made in the USA. The word "content" includes "value-add". So a product engineered in the US but assembled overseas (like the iPhone) could qualify as "Made in the USA".After the labor unions lobbied extensively, Congress overturned that definition and the current definition (which requires "all or virtually all" assembly and processing to be taken place in the USA) was adopted.What a brain-dead move. It emphasizes the least value-add activities in the whole production process. Make perfect sense for the unions but a terribly sense for a country's long-term interests.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2014, 07:42:18 am
content: Made in USA = We bought the complete unit in China, and shipped it here in bulk. Then here we took it and placed it in a plastic bag, placed it in a box, sealed it along with putting in a remote and batteries and instruction manual in a bag. The rest of the parts other than the TV set came from other companies with a US address, though all of the pieces came in containers from China. Just because we have bought from companies with US addresses, and paid to a US bank account, we can claim that the parts are supplied from the USA and gets us over the threshold. That these other companies are wholly owned subsidiaries of our own company, and only deal with us exclusively, and only exist as a post drop and a shared office space that is empty other than once a month when a hired cleaner enters to dust, is not considered relevant.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2014, 05:28:07 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 12, 2014, 01:50:26 pmWell, Mojo, you are right in theory, but in practice, the "made in..." is for political purpose I think particularly for unionized labor. It is, as you pointed out, useless as a label for quality determination. That determination of quality is more in the domain of "brands". Thus, the OP's idea of avoiding all things "made in China" is perhaps merely poorly phrased or misguided.By the way, a piece of relevant news to this thread:China just surpassed the USA in adjusted GDP according to the IMF.http://www.businessinsider.com/china-overtakes-us-as-worlds-largest-economy-2014-10As their economy further expands, their capability will likely expand correspondingly. We will likely rely on them for more and more instead of less.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2014, 05:35:57 pm
content: I saw that too but NPR reported that the US is still the largest economy, but China surpassed Japan to take the 2nd place.Although it's just a matter of time now. So let's see if this starts some renewed competition with it's pros and cons.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2014, 06:12:56 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on October 14, 2014, 05:35:57 pmI think the confusion may be raw GDP vs PPP-Adjusted GDP. By raw GDP, USA is number one. By PPP-Adjusted GDP, China is number one.The IMF used PPP-Adjusted GPD. In case anyone is unfamiliar, PPP (Purchasing-Power Parity) adjusts the value by the amount of goods/services you can actually purchase thereby showing the real value of that amount.Re:"So let's see if this starts some renewed competition with it's pros and cons."Hate to say it, but I think we are in no position to compete unless we do drastic course change. Have you seen the latest (common core) high school curriculum? You are lucky if you come out able to add a 4 digit number without a calculator.We are in the pit with a flat tire as China passed us by, while our mechanics are busy repainting the fenders to a more soothing color because someone on the team thinks the original color may be offensive to someone when we do the winner's lap.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2014, 07:24:08 pm
content: I used to live in Tucson, Arizona, everything was cheap (housing, groceries, going out, etc) but salaries were way lower so it was adjusted to the cost of living.The problem is when you want to buy something from outside your community (a car, online things) then your purchasing power is way less. So travelling outside of Arizona it would be very costly for say, a vacation.Now I live in Chicago IL where things are more expensive, not quite as high as New York or California, but say I went to visit Arizona, everything will be cheap for me.So it's better to live where the cost of living is higher (if you have a decent job) for real purchasing power. So China has not really passed the US globally, they have a way to go still, they did however surpassed Japan.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2014, 07:49:59 pm
content: QuoteTotally so. "Made" has been defined to "assembled", ignoring the most valuable part of a high-tech product / service: the creative part of "making".By that definition, a US-designed software package would considered "Made in Mexico" if the CD that carries the software is printed in Mexico.That kind of mentality (of focusing on the least value-add elements) is totally suicidal over the long term.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2014, 01:03:55 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on October 14, 2014, 07:24:08 pmHey Miguelvp, I used to live in the Chicago area, so welcome to Chicago!Back to the post.Your being able to buy less in AZ than in IL means your AZ purchasing power is less than your IL purchasing power. That is the same as saying your PPP-Adjusted AZ income is less than your PPP-Adjusted IL income. So in your case, both PPP and raw numbers are smaller.The IMF PPP analysis is saying that measured in purchasing power, China's GDP is greater than ours. One can infer from that statement that if they spend 0.01% GDP on something-project, and we also spend 0.01% GDP on the same something-project, they have more resources for that project than we do.Once can therefore conclude that in the "macro" sense, they are running faster than we. While individually our per-capita GDP is 5.5x that of their per-capita GDP, but any "macro" projects they will have a resource advantage, be it infrastructure or defense or mission-to-Mars.So, regardless of raw GDP, with their PPP-GDP ahead, not only are they gaining, the resource for future gain is also to their advantage now.Where do I get 5.5x:Eval of per-capita GDP with 2013 numbersUSA GDP=$16.8T @ 400 million population = $42T/billion people,China GDP=$9.22T @ 1.2 billion population = $7.7T/billionSo 42/7.7 = 5.5x

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2014, 02:00:40 am
content: Not entirely.Lets say that I make 2.9 times more than in AZ but things here on average cost 3 times more. It means my PPP-Adjusted AZ income is higher than my PPP-Adjusted IL income. But if I want to take a vacation, I can afford to go to a place 2.9 times more expensive if I lived in IL than if I lived in AZ.Think my AZ and IL entities being countries, and say I wanted to bid for some raw material in the global market, I could offer 3 times more with my IL based country than my AZ based one and outbid them out of the resource.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2014, 02:28:55 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 14, 2014, 06:12:56 pmHave you seen the high school standards in China, or Singapore, or Hong Kong or anywhere else lauded as being ahead of the west? They may look good compared to most current western standards, but they are still awful compared to the standards of the British schools I attended in the 1960s and early 70s. Every country has trashed its academic standards. The west is merely taking a leadership role in this.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2014, 02:35:43 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 14, 2014, 07:49:59 pmThere is plenty of stuff these days which is labelled "Designed in X. Made in Y".Interestingly Epson label their printers "Assembled in Vietnam from Japanese components", but Panasonic don't label their high end microwave ovens "Assembled in Japan from Chinese components". They just don't seem to like to brag about that.As more and more assembly moves from Southern China to Vietnam and Indonesia I wonder if we are going to see people trying to live a life free of Vietnamese built stuff in their homes.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2014, 07:29:51 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 15, 2014, 02:28:55 amI usePISAscore for comparison, and I have look at Hong Kong and Taiwan curriculum (in the context of comparing each toTIMSSsubject areas covered, and in comparison to USA standard - aka Common Core).PISAis the student testing forOECDcountries.TIMSSis Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study. Google it, and you will find TIMSS comparisons (by number of subjects), PISA scores, etc.2012 (latest) PISA score rankingUKranks 26 in math and 20 in ScienceUSAranks 36 in math and 28 in ScienceChina (Shanghai), Hong Kong, and Singapore are #1, #2 and #3.I would say 1, 2, or 3 are ahead of number 26 or number 20.That isn't lucky happenstance. Their achievements are consistent. Along with PISA, I also usedJohns Hopkins University Center for Talented Youth (JHU-CTY)High Honorsaward in one of my post last year comparing BRIC countries.To be accepted for admission testing put them at top 5%. To be part of CTY put them at top 2% to 3%-ish. Less than 30% of those tested get high honors. In a nut shell, the CTY kid at before age 13 and at grade 7 already exceed average college bound high school seniors at grade 12 with standardize test scores like SAT/ACT.The old post below doesn't include UK/Britain. For your benefit, I just looked up the UK number:8from UK (7 from London, 1 from Surbiton). Compare to40from Singapore,171from China, and343from Hong Kong.Quote from: Rick Law on June 02, 2013, 09:00:12 pmI would say I have pointed outsolid evidencethat China (Shanghai), Hong Kong, and Singapore compare favorably to UK, USA, and much of the rest of the world.Rick

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2014, 07:51:09 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 15, 2014, 07:29:51 amDid you actually read what I wrote before posting, as your post seems utterly irrelevant to what I said? I am not comparing the west of today with the Asia of today. I am comparing the west of 40 years ago, which had far higher standards than anywhere in the world today. The entire world has trashed its education. I spend a lot of time in India and China, and I live in Hong Kong. Most parents in these places despair at their poor educational standards compared with a generation ago. Having the best education system today is like winning a tallest dwarf contest.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2014, 09:24:32 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 15, 2014, 08:57:48 amThat's ancient history. Try looking inside a Panasonic microwave less than 5 years old, and see if the key components, like the magnetron, are Panasonic's own. There's nothing wrong with buying in parts, but they are buying in junk parts.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2014, 10:00:15 am
content: QuoteMy kids are CTY kids. They can barely keep up with the chinese kids in their schools; and those chinese kids in their schools would be below average if they were to attend schools in china.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2014, 04:32:57 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 15, 2014, 03:54:20 pmI think Panasonic make microwave ovens for the European market in Europe itself. In live in Hong Kong. The cheap Panasonic ovens here are made in China. The expensive ones say Made in Japan. I think the models sold in Europe are different from the ones sold in Asia, and different again from the ones sold in America.This isn't really a Panasonic issue. Most Japanese electronics giants are struggling to adapt to changing times, and are making a mix of good and self destructive decisions. With Panasonic's current policies they probably won't be in most areas of consumer electronics for much longer.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2014, 05:14:42 pm
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 15, 2014, 10:00:15 amDannyF,re: My kids are CTY kids.Congratulations! Multiple congratulations since you put it in plural!Please tell your kids, I am impressed. They need to know, adults who care will take note of their accomplishments. And, I am sincerely impressed.They may not find a lot of peers around them, but CTY kids are around. Stay the course and my best wishes to them for their many successes to come.Rick

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2014, 02:34:52 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 15, 2014, 05:14:42 pmYou make this sound like such a big deal, when it isn't. 3% means about one child per class on average. Of course things don't average very well. Some classes will have half the students in this 3% category while many others have none. However, it really isn't hard to find other people in a group composed of 2 to 3% of the population. When you are in the one in a thousand category it starts to get hard to find like minded people at school. Then you go to university where you suddenly find there are quite a few.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2014, 11:14:06 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 16, 2014, 09:49:22 amPanasonic has been manufacturing on a large scale in Europe since the 1980s. Out of interest where was the oven made, and who made its magnetron?10 years ago Panasonic said 1/3rd of its production was in China, and it has been growing. I haven't seen a recent figure, but I doubt it is now less than a half. Meanwhile, in Japan Panasonic is widely reported as having stopped most fresh investment in the local manufacture of consumer goods. I'm not clear if the picture is as black and white as the reports indicate, and I'm not clear what they consider to be a consumer good. Tesla batteries seem like a consumer purchase, and Panasonic seem eager to get into those.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2014, 12:39:15 pm
content: QuoteNot that impressive: my elder one went to Choate for a summer camp and my impression is that the international students in the camp were far more competitive than the local kids; Same experience with a camp that she went in Shanghai.My guess is that top 10% in the US is likely in the mid 50% in Asia (in terms of math and science) and top 1% is likely in the two 5% - 10% in Asia.If you think math / science is bad in the US now, wait for another 10 - 20 years and we would be completely decimated.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2014, 09:54:04 pm
content: Since this thread is aboutproducts from China, I think talking about Chinese technology potential is not a side track. Moderator (and other members), please let me know if you disagree... When it comes to education, I get passionate and carry-away.Quote from: coppice on October 16, 2014, 02:34:52 amI agree with your post except: "3% means about one child per class on average". That statement is incorrect - probably due to quotes and re-quotes without the associated text paragraph. Without the associated paragraph, that it is"at least..."could not be discerned.The relevant part of the paragraph in summary,"You have to be at least top 5% toapply foradmission testandof thosetestedabout 1/2were accepted (into CTY)."This is not the same as saying "accepting top 1/2 of top 5%". However, one can be mathematically certain that those accepted must beat leasttop half of top 5%-ish.For the time frame in question, in USA alone there were 55 million kids in K-12. Assume equal distribution would be 4.2 million per grade in the USA. They test (in their words) "over 28,000 per year" world wide. So those admitted into CTY is much much smaller than 2-3% of general population.As to why I make it into a big deal...For 5 to 8 years, I volunteered at a parent-operated weekend school with over 300 students. Kids there attend "regular" school during weekdays, and then Saturday at this school. I gave up much of every Saturday during school year to just help kids. Over the years, I have spoken to many parents, look at many kids as they grow (or failed)... I can tell you with confidence that kids who got into CTY are special - not just in the score but in theircommitment to success. And most of all, as adults particularly in the west, we need to treat them as such. In the west, these kids mustbeat back the peer pressureand achieved.Quote from: dannyf on October 16, 2014, 12:39:15 pmYes, it is impressive, and so is your humbleness.My "gut feel" is: I think our top 1% is as good as theirs, we just have less of them. Our top 5% is likely still as good as their top 5%. When you get down to top 10%, we reached beyond our supply of good ones.I went along with my kid to a few middle school math contests in north-east USA. I can see top kids from here are not bad either. Yeah some local north-east USA kids may be imported from China, but they are USA kids now. One non-Asian kid commented "I think I am in China town..."Iliketo think, in another 10-20 years, we have a new generation in high school who can beat the pants out of us (this generation). It may be wishful thinking, but I hope to contribute by letting parents know and understand the dire state of our education.Last I want to see is more of what Jay Leno (of "Tonight" TV show) found:(This one isn't from Jay Leno but just as funny...)Rick

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2014, 11:47:19 pm
content: QuoteNot sure about top 1%. But I can say, with 100% confidence, that our top 0.1% is much better than their top 0.1%. On top of that, our kids are far more creative and multi-talented that they hold a competitive edge outside of the classrooms - and that's very important.Having said that, I am incredibly pessimistic about our industries. I have been to a few technology conferences in China and if you look at the young faces surrounding you, and you talk to their entrepreneurs about what they are working on and their dreams, you kind of see the USA of the 1940 / 1950 and 1960.You see that "animal spirit", in a very positive way, that we have lost. You see the "desire", and willingness to fight, and the confidence. I give you some examples: 90% of the microphones you use in cell phones are sourced in China; 90% of the microwave ovens manufactured in the world are manufactured in China; 9 out of 10 cranes are operating in China; all top 50 architecture firms have office in China; ...It is scare to see how far they have come over the last 20 years. Think how much an average Chinese family is investing in their kids' education and how hard they are willing to work. And then think forward 20 years.It is beyond being scary. If we don't have a leader coming along in 10 - 20 years, we are done.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 16, 2014, 11:58:03 pm
content: Not really anti China, I believe their engineers are as good as any. Students travel all over thee world for an education and they take it all back to China, so they have the same potential, if not greater than anyone else because for what I hear from my kids and their friends that the Chinese students are true bookworms and don't waste time partying like the rest of the college students do.They are not only taking into manufacturing and they are many! So yeah, might be the next super power if they don't start (and by they I mean their political leaders, not the people) alienating their neighbors and flexing their military muscle. Time will come when it will be inevitable that they push back, but they are not quite there yet, but soon they'll be. But early assertion could back fire on them, we will see.Also with growth and people being more valuable, they will start demanding equitable wages and at the end it all balances itself. Cost of living will rise even more for their citizens so they will demand for more.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 01:39:15 am
content: Quote from: miguelvp on October 16, 2014, 11:58:03 pmHave you noticed that China is now the world's biggest car market? Have you seen the prices of the homes people are buying in China? Have you seen the figures for sales of high ticket consumer goods at Chinese New Year, and National Day week in October? Have you seen how much consumer stuff trades on TaoBao?Chinese professional salaries aren't as high as the US, but they are already as high as many western countries. The people who are still fairly cheap are assembly workers, but they are no longer cheap enough. Keep looking at the "made in" labels on the western and Japanese company goods you buy, and you might notice the trend is to "Made in Vietnam" and "Made in Indonesia". China is losing lots of simple assembly jobs. Most of their once huge clothing industry has already gone. Some simple assembly jobs are even being exported to the US.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 03:02:54 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 16, 2014, 11:47:19 pmDon't be pessimistic, if all else failed, we can growvegetable trees....(see link below)...Santa Cruz is just 45 minutes from Silicone Valley. Santa Cruz is where not so long ago Seagate, Borland, and other notables of the tech industry housed major facilities.Lets listen in on their city council:Quote from: dannyf on October 16, 2014, 11:47:19 pmI fear we do not have so much time.Again today, I heard people are celebrating "10 year low in unemployment...new low in labor participation rate". They are celebrating "10 year low in unemployment". No math sense at all!New low in labor participation means less people are working. So what if we have a even a 1000 year low in recent-unemployed, there are still more people without a job. I suppose we should all celebrate Sun Microsystems and companies like it. Since Sun Microsystem's closing, they hasn't had a single layoff. 92.6 million adults not working and we just added to that - but we are celebrating... Geeze... Perhaps the vegetable trees do something to the minds of those eating from it.DannyF, you are right to be scared. I too am scared. That is why I so readily share education-tips and resources with other parents and volunteered at that school. Whether my child succeed or not, I want her to be at least in a society with some opportunities. Staying on the current vegetable trees path is not promising.However, do look on the bright side. That a country as big as China can turned in 20 years means we (USA) being smaller can be more nimble and turn faster. We just need to turn soon, very very soon.Rick

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 03:31:38 am
content: I don't fear it, I think is good for the planet to have more competition. It's a win/win in my view.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 03:41:20 am
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 17, 2014, 03:02:54 amThis has nothing to do with math sense. People hear in these statements what makes them feel comfortable, whether they are mathematically literate or no. Math sense doesn't let you draw anything useful out of the juxtaposition of lower labour participation and a 10 year low in unemployment. You need to know the reasons for the lower participation, and I expect they are quite complex. I presume there are not huge numbers of people who gave up and starved to death, so they are doing something. The question is what? Some were clearly approaching retirement in 2008, lost their jobs, couldn't get another, and settling for retiring a little earlier (and probably somewhat less well prepared) than they expected to. Some will have become part of a black economy, getting by but dropping off the government radar. Just what are all the others up to?If you want to look at how employment has been degraded in the last few years I think its more fruitful to look at how well those who are still employed are fairing.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 05:04:53 am
content: Quote from: coppice on October 17, 2014, 03:41:20 amre: "...I presume there are not huge numbers of people who gave up and starved to death..."92.6 million(from US Labor Department before today's new low) is a huge number "not participating". As you say, likely not a huge number are staving to death. Some are newly "disabled". There is a huge increase in disability claims. Some are doing piece work under the table. There is also an increasing trend of adults (50+ years old) going back to live with their parents.Many college grads ended up going to graduate school. I know of a few. Some(22%) work at low-end degree-not-required placesmaking under $16K/year, some hasno work at all (22.4%). Some(55.6%) work at college-degree-requiredjobs. I don't know how many of these "degree required" jobs are McDonald cashier as it was reported in the news that some fast-food place are requiring degrees for cashiers job.(attach chart from Business Insider 2009 data)That said, stars are doing okay. One I knew got scoped up immediately after graduation from MIT just this last summer - by what she said was her dream job. She is a CTY alumi like her brother. He too graduated recently (from UC Berkeley) and he got a good job as well. So stars are doing okay. The rest? Not so promising. I smell coffee and Chicken Nuggets in their future.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 06:15:50 am
content: There are graduates that are just not cut out to do the job, so they end up outside of their fields, and they complain but they just did enough to get by and they don't show motivation.Cash registers requiring graduation is probably high school graduation.Good competent people have no trouble finding good paying jobs on their field in the US, well maybe some telco programmers that don't realize that they better move to another field since it's all Android or IOS so there is not a lot of custom phone OS work, other than skins etc, but the ones that work on the protocols I doubt they have problems finding work.The longer I've been out of a job with no prospects it's been 2 months and that was only once in my life (50 now) most of the time I had something line up already and I didn't jump from job to job, just companies going down so move along to other ventures.So for the perspective of a programmer I don't see the gloom. Last job I got was 5 years ago, and at 45 years old I had no trouble (other than it was my longest search and I had to move to a different state)The new hires out of college I find them competent and willing to learn (not all of them but most) So it's not so bad from my perspective. Sure there are mediocre people that don't prosper and have to work in restaurants or whatever, but that's just because they think just the title will open doors. I hope most of them realize their mistake in time to change their views since they are no longer dependent on their parents.In short, I disagree on how bad the US is at on tech jobs.

author: chloe shuyue wang
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 06:57:38 am
content: Mark.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 03:14:22 pm
content: QuoteIt suggests a "new normal": at the peak, many people are out of the workforce, because they are discouraged to work, or encouraged to not work. A persistently, if not permanently, stagnant economy (aka Europe), financed only by deficit spending.When the debt buyers wise up to that, you have a sudden collapse.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 05:20:53 pm
content: Quote from: miguelvp on October 17, 2014, 06:15:50 amre:Cash registers requiring graduation is probably high school graduation.My info is outdated. You are right. The case I cited was not found. But different search criteria found another story with owner of the McDonald's update saying that was not the case.http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/mcdonalds-want-ad-demands-bachelors-degree-two-years-experience-for-cashier/article/2526145re:Good competent people have no trouble finding good paying jobs on their field in the US...With over half not-employed or under-employed, if you are right here, it would mean we have more than 1/2 of the college grads being not good and being less than competent.From USA Today, 2012, 4 years into this "new normal" - Half of new graduates are jobless or underemployedhttp://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-04-22/college-grads-jobless/54473426/1Quote from: mojo-chan on October 17, 2014, 04:59:18 pmI took that more as "tongue in cheek" perhaps to kick off a discussion on Chinese products.How could the OP be serious anyway - it is like "can I have a house without wood inside?" Of course you can - just how much it would cost to replace every chair and table with steel or plastic, eliminate any wood-pencils, eliminate every sheet of paper, etc., etc., etc., etc....So in similar light I considered the original premise too silly to consider as serious.If the OP was serious to any significant extend, he got issues... enough issues he probably need a straitjackets and be placed in a rubber room - chances are, the straitjackets he would be using would probably be made in China.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2014, 09:20:02 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 17, 2014, 07:44:49 pmCan't let that (ie: discrimination) bother you... There will always be people with inadequate common sense.There are times when it really hurts, I know. But don't give those guys the satisfaction.Dr. Ben Carsoncame to mind since we also talked about education and now about discrimination...To quote Dr. Carson:"When I operate on a brain, I open it up and see the brain - that is the person. Not what is on the outside but what is in there."(<<< paraphrased from my recollection from an interview on TV -- may not be an exact quote)Dr. Ben Carsonwas the head ofPediatric Neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins Hospital(now retired). He was the surgeon who figure out a technique, and thensuccessfully performed the first cranial conjoined twin separation. Dr. Carson is an American who is Black, grew up in Detroit, single mother... He probably faced more discrimination than you or I can imagine.Dr. Carson really cares about education and kids. I know from direct experience some years back. He also founded a scholarship fund callCarson Scholars Fundgiven away millions to help kid's education. He is one who overcame much disadvantages and pushed himself to overcome and then achieve. He credited his successes to education. Beyond common achievements, he did theuntil then an impossible taskof separating cranial conjoined twin.Inspirationalstory - "Gifted Hands" If you can find it (it is on Netflix), I recommend it.(If you think I admire the guy or something, you are right! I admired him the first moment I stumbled across the Gifted Hands movie many years ago.)Rick

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2014, 09:50:02 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 17, 2014, 07:44:49 pmWhen I was young western people had exactly the same attitude about the Japanese that they do today about the Chinese. This worked massively in favour of the Japanese. By the end of the 70s people were still laughing about these backward people, paid a pittance to assemble junk. Their TV was a Sony, their stereo a Pioneer, their car a Nissan, all bought because they were super reliable at a reasonable price, yet they still looked down at the Japanese. Then their own industries (and hence jobs) started to look shaky, the media kept telling them about the high educational standards in Japan, and how a line worker at Toyota made more money than one at a European car maker. Then they started to wake up. The same thing happened later with Korea, and to some extent Taiwan. Now they laugh at China. If I were Chinese I'd be hoping they keep on laughing as long as possible. It stops the west from trying to compete too hard.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2014, 09:59:39 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 19, 2014, 08:53:22 am70 years ago things where a bit different than today, maybe you have not keep up with things.And as for prejudice and bigotry in Europe, tell that to the Gypsies, or North Africans, or Islamic. You are a bit diluted IMHO.

author: Tandy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2014, 11:03:36 am
content: I can understand why you might support buying locally when you see friends and family in your country loosing their jobs you might feel it is your duty to support them by buying locally produced goods. But I can't see why you would single out an entire country to boycott just because they are the worlds largest manufacturing economy.Western business has always sought the cheapest place to manufacture products. Here in the UK for example we would get our coal from wales where the disadvantaged people were initially grateful for the opportunity of work and many welsh people moved into mining towns. However the welsh people then quite rightly wanted a better life for their children and demanded a fairer wage. The problem being that there will always be someone in the world who is worse off who is willing to be exploited because to them any income is better than none. So who's fault is it that the mines closed in wales? Is it the underpaid workers demanding a better life? Is it the workers on other countries who are so desperate to earn money to live that they will work for much less then the welsh miners? Many will say that it is the fault of the businesses that run the coal mines, but is it, their job is to try and get the best price selling coal while producing it for the lowest cost to make a profit but they can't just charge whatever they like as there is competition. So ultimately are we all responsible for it by seeking out the lowest price for goods?It is a difficult question that there is no single answer for, Japan used to be the manufacturing capital of the world for electronic goods but not any more, Japan like everyone else buys most of their electronic goods from China. China is currently the place where everything is made but this will change, China is a country with a rich history that fell on economic hard times and as a result people were willing to work for next to nothing to survive. This is no longer the case, China is regaining its place in the world and the people of China are better educated and want better lives for their families. The cost of transport is growing due to environmental concerns and increases in fuel. Many western countries economies are suffering and people are realising that perhaps they will have to work for less than they once did. The result is that it is becoming more economically feasible for some industry to return to western countries, however many of the skills are lost and there is a great resistance from people to accept a manual labour job. So the in all likelihood instead of re-establishing industry in western countries as the cost of producing in China increases it will just move to another poor country where people will work for less.

author: Rick Law
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2014, 06:54:33 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 19, 2014, 08:53:22 amre: prejudice and bigotry was far worse in the US than EuropeI understand anecdotes are personal experiences thus may not be reflective of the general population. None the less, anecdotal evidence I have experienced (or heard) disagreed with you rather strongly.Even as recent as less than a decade ago, I worked a few weeks every year in Europe. I drew the exact oppose conclusion that you did. I found the USA to be more minority friendly than Europe.I could discern readily that many North-Western Europeans doesn't accept South-Eastern Europeans as equals. At times, I can see the "mood change" in restaurants (customers) when less than well-dressed South-eastern European come in. Business attire or good business casual seem to reduce that non-acceptance rather well, so this could well be "class-ism" (classicism?) and not "racism". However, the bar of "how well dress you must be" appears different for different race. Outside the tourist spots, I would be very reluctant to walk around in Europe wearing cut-off jeans.That said, some "hill billy areas" in the USA may be different. There are pockets of rural areas in the USA that are very visitor unfriendly. Anyone not local are viewed with suspicion and non-acceptance regardless of race. But it being "regardless of race" precluded it from being viewed as racism.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2014, 07:17:56 pm
content: It depends.I think Europe is far worse when it comes to Jews, people with religion, or conservatives. Europe is far more progressive and tolerant as long as you share the progressive view.The US is a lot more race-conscious (affirmative action, entitlement, etc.) and gender conscious (social issues).

author: Tandy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2014, 07:26:45 pm
content: Quote from: Rick Law on October 19, 2014, 06:54:33 pmI think you have noticed an important distinction there, in my experience as a British national I would say that the way someone conducts themselves is more important than their race. I think class has always been a significant factor in British society.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2014, 12:38:46 am
content: In Chicago at least you can find people from everywhere coexisting, I hear people talking in Russian, Polish, Vietnamese, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, German, etc.. just by walking the isles of Costco.The funny thing is that in Japan there is no diversification and they look down to other races around their area and let's not start how they look down to women. And how do they feel about the Chinese?.As for Europe, well there are still rivalries even inside countries, the Germans always looked down to the Spanish workers that emigrated there many decades ago. The French same thing with the Swiss, they even jokingly call them Le petite suisse like in the name of the cheese. Italians don't mix well with Sicilians, etc,etc,etc.. And don't even try to explain the futbol fanaticism, it's out of control and pushes the hatred more so.The US even if not perfect, is way ahead in diversity than any other place in the planet.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2014, 09:44:02 am
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 20, 2014, 09:03:27 amThere are only minorities in London. No one ethnic group constitutes more than 50% of the population now.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2014, 10:32:53 am
content: QuoteThis is why there is no bigotry in the progressive Europe: if you don't acknowledge an issue, that issue doesn't exist.Got to love those progressively ignorant progressives.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2014, 11:19:35 am
content: Quote from: dannyf on October 20, 2014, 10:32:53 amI'm rather amused by the lack of self awareness needed to post that.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2014, 02:19:52 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on October 20, 2014, 09:03:27 amI'm half Mexican from my dad side and I don't feel discriminated at all.As for childish name callings usually people don't get killed by that.http://soccerlens.com/football-violence-worst-football-riots/23093/There is even a wikipedia dedicated to it:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_hooliganismOf course the more remarkable ones are the ones in the UK:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_hooliganism_in_the_United_Kingdom

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 20, 2014, 08:45:32 pm
content: football hooliganism is region based, where a town will hate the neighboring town and their inhabitants, because they just talk wrong or do things differently, or whatever.Football brings all that suppressed hate and bigotry it doesn't have to be different races, it can be the same race and neighboring towns.As for Japan/ChinaQuotePage 37-38http://www.globescan.com/images/images/pressreleases/bbc2014_country_ratings/2014_country_rating_poll_bbc_globescan.pdfThere is no appreciation among Japanese of the influence China had on their culture. Then again, Chinese don't like the Japanese that much either..Quotepage 22 of that same study.What I'm saying is that before stating that the US this or the US that, clean up your own backyard 1st.The Freedom Information Act world wide comes because we did it first, otherwise you wouldn't have yours.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2014, 12:53:37 am
content: An interesting book to read about education is the book "the smartest kids in the world". High controversial but incredibly insightful, to me.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2014, 03:27:31 pm
content: On the definition of "made", there is a lawsuit going on right now concerning if federally approved "handmade vodka" means it is made by hand and what "handmade" means,Like many "Made-in-USA" cars are made in Canada and Mexico and "Made-in-Japan" cars are made in the USA.