Any alternatives to PC engines? (Solved) - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 08:56:46 pm
content: Hi everyone, I want to find a fanless little computer, primary for build a firewall/router, I know the PC-engines solutions are the most popular, but it don't completely meet my needs. So here's what I want:The system should be fanless.CPU: At least 32-bit X86, not lower than the PC-engines AMD LX800.RAM: Not lower than 256MB.The motherboard better use DC input, not 20/24 pin ATX.At least 4 Gigabit ports, really want 5.Onboard devices have good Linux/BSD driver support.Support VGA or DVI output.Have USB port(s).Must from a known good brand, no Chinese brands.Shouldn't be too expensive, better keep below 150 dollars.Could anyone help me? Thank you all.Update: Thank you everyone so much! I didn't expect you guys are so helpful!I think what Mr.jazz mentioned is a good news for me, I can use a mini-pcie to dual gigabit card to expand, example:http://www.logicsupply.com/admpeidlb/So this is a rescuer if I cannot find a motherboard with so many LAN ports.Above example still expensive to me, if someone can find a cheaper while quality alternative, please tell me. Thanks.Update 2:I found this:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813153309Seems greatThat board have only 1 NIC...Update 3: Thank you everyone! You provided many useful answers and I'm appreciate them.I'm marking this thread as solved, and I'll do research more and decide one, and you're totally welcome to continue post in.

author: wraper
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 09:08:51 pm
content: QuoteIMO what you want to use it for and price target contradicts with what you want it to be. Maybe get something what Mikrotik offers. They are not just usual routers you see in stores.https://routerboard.com/products/group/17

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 09:15:26 pm
content: Listen to the wraper.Mikrotik is awesome...

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 09:21:16 pm
content: Quote from: wraper on October 23, 2016, 09:08:51 pmThanks man, I'm using a Mikrotik right nowIt is generally a awesome router, but I want DNSsec/DNSCrypt feature that it don't included. Plus, I wanted to play build a X86 router for a long time, last time I use a ancient enterprise firewall with 200MHZ pentium and 64 RAM to run monowall, but it just too limited, and... it usually need 5-30+ times power cycle to get boot successfully

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 09:49:30 pm
content: Quote from: evb149 on October 23, 2016, 09:31:28 pmThank you for reply.I've looked at those boards, but they either don't have enough ports, or too expensive.I tried to find USB-LAN adapters, but big-brands ones are very rare, and I even bought a Linksys one to test, is very expensive, and just not work for BSD/Linux. Not to mention USB are slower compare to onboard ones.I do have a server in my house, but that's too noisy and I have to put it in the far balcony, I plan to stop using that at night...And it's not so convenient to setup a virtual appliance as a router, I prefer a standalone one.The PC-engines are pretty close, but they only have at most 3 ports, and no video output.

author: dannyf
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 10:00:54 pm
content: Quotegoogle HP-PLEX.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 10:32:50 pm
content: I'd ditch the fanless requirement and look for a second hand HP Microserver. These things sold for ridiculously low prices to begin with, so there's probably a few available on the cheap. The peak performance of x86 based solution is always nice to have.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 10:38:12 pm
content: Oh there's theWiTI board. An indiegogo campaign which actually delivered it seems (no experience with the hardware though).

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 10:40:04 pm
content: Quote from: evb149 on October 23, 2016, 10:18:58 pmThank you very much!That Jetway is a good except the price...In fact I don't need very powerful gigabit ports, the ISP is only about 60Mbps and I don't always transfer large things among Lan. The reason I want Gigabit is many device I connect to is Gigabit, and I think better not to waste that. I don't want to use USB-LAN is not really because the speed, they are just too rare and expensive, and bad Unix support, besides, tons of people are against USB-LAN on a proper router because the overhead and unstable. They even against USB-wireless, but I think I have to use a USB wireless anyway because many mini PCs just don't have PCIs.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 10:44:42 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 23, 2016, 10:32:50 pmThank you!Unfortunately fanless is a must to me, I have a TYAN server and I know how it soundsI'm wearing 3M noise-resist earpiece every night sleeping, seriously.Quote from: Marco on October 23, 2016, 10:38:12 pmThat one seems to be a OpenWRT dev board, which is not X86.Thank you anyway.

author: helius
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 10:49:57 pm
content: If you like the PC-Engines ALIX APU1 but really need graphics (for a router??) the fit-PC3 is pretty much the same. It's close to your price spec too, but without any memory or storage.http://www.fit-pc.com/web/purchasing/order-all/

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 10:50:45 pm
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 23, 2016, 10:44:42 pmHP Microserver is not a rackmount format, it's going to be more like a quiet desktop PC. That said, why does it have to be near you?When I was in a student apartment I had my server in the hot water boiler closet (I just cut up the standard network cabling to my room to plug it in). Currently my main computer is also in a closet with 10 meter cables to my desk.

author: System Error Message
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 10:57:30 pm
content: before you go off buying, while mikrotik is nice it is dependent on the architecture. You should see the block diagram before you buy because the configuration of the ports and switch chip affect your use and throughput. The CPU is the most important for throughput. I myself use a mikrotik CCR1036 that i modified (more details on snbforums). Mikrotik does have routerOS that is for x86 too.There are other routers that are capable or even better. You can use an OS on x86 that is focused like pfsense or you can build one from scratch from installing a linux/unix OS and installing all the software and configuring everything. There are also UTMs as well you should give a try.It really depends what you want, whether you want to learn and try things or just install packages and features that do what you want.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 11:04:23 pm
content: try something like this:http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=5631#ovit's small mini-ITX and it's fanlessit has 2 gig ethernets onboard - you can connect it to a 802.11q capable switch and split up those nics to as many as you wish via that switchand it has serial ports ! you can have a serial console !

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 11:09:20 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 23, 2016, 10:50:45 pmThank you, I currently live with other people and the "network center" is at my room, together with a UPS, I also don't want to put those to other room.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 11:13:29 pm
content: Quote from: System Error Message on October 23, 2016, 10:57:30 pmThank you, as I said, I'm currently using a Mikrotik and it is good, however I just want to try to build a even more crazy one... For fun?Yes I already researched many firewall and UTM OSes, just wait to try them out!

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 11:17:37 pm
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 23, 2016, 11:03:57 pmThank you.Although it is not going to be used in a large/mission critical area, I still want it to be very stable, so I think it's better to use a known good brands one.An NUC usually not having enough ports for me, I don't want another switch

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 11:23:38 pm
content: Quote from: helius on October 23, 2016, 10:49:57 pmThank you, graphics is not a must for a router, but I think it's better to have one in case to diagnostic, or initially install some distros that won't install without a monitor.I've already saw those before, but they are out of my budget

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 11:25:17 pm
content: Quote from: rob77 on October 23, 2016, 11:04:23 pmThank you, but I really don't want a standalone switch.

author: jazz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 11:30:47 pm
content: My take on it would be to just get some ITX board with a low power CPU and plug a quad-port GBit NIC into the PCIe slot. Those quad NICs typically need an x4 PCIe slot and low profile versions are available, you may have to get a used one though to stay within your price range.Since all of this is pretty much standard hardware, you're also less likely to run into any driver issues etc.You could also get 5 GBit ports on a PC-Engines APU board by getting a dual-port GBit MiniPCIe card (such cards actually exist, though they're kinda rare). The APU boards don't have graphics though, and it would also be harder to meet your price target.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 11:46:19 pm
content: Quote from: jazz on October 23, 2016, 11:30:47 pmWow this is really helpfulI quickly found Jetway JADMPEIDLA/B that seems good, although a bit expensive.So I can add 2 Gigabit port to any board with mini-PCIe, great!Thank you so much.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 12:10:27 am
content: AMD AM1 processor - $30Asus AM1M-A motherboard - $38ECC or non-ECC memoryPair of dual port PCIe ethernet cards - $25 to $50 eachAll standard parts makes this easy to maintain. Passive heat sink can be used with an AM1 processor. ECC memory is supported for long term operation if desired. Used network cards and a spare case and power supply can be used to lower cost.

author: jazz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 12:13:38 am
content: By the way, maybe the Banana Pi Router might also interesting to you:http://www.banana-pi.org/r1.htmlIt meets most of your needs, but it's ARM. OS choice would be limited to some flavors of Linux it seems.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 12:14:22 am
content: The HP Microservers that were mentioned are nice little computers. The Gen 7s were very popular and could be found new for under $250. Unfortunately, HP realized what a good thing they had and quickly came out with Gen 8 versions. Which were only slightly better, much uglier and a whole lot more expensive.A used N36L/N40L/N54L machine in good condition still sells for about what it cost new. You might look on ebay for just a motherboard. I've seen them for $100-$150. They have two PCIe slots, two DIMM slots and an AMD 64 bit processor soldered on. One thing to note, the faster SATA II connector needs a mini-SAS 4 to 1 cable, which could be a problem. There is a single SATA I, a couple of eSATA and a bunch of USB 2.0 ports, including one directly on the motherboard (good for running some OS from).I don't know that one would be good for what you want, but they make fantastic FreeNAS machines.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 12:15:47 am
content: You can easily do that with desktop components.Motherboard + CPU + Integrated video (cpu soldered on motherboard) ,passively cooled:$55 : ASRock QC5000M AMD FT3 Kabini A4-5000 Quad-Core APU SOC Micro ATX Motherboard/CPU Combohttp://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157616&ignorebbr=1(almost 2x raw peformance of the one below but that one's Intel)$55 : ASRock D1800M Intel Dual-Core Celeron Processor J1800 Micro ATX Motherboard/CPU/VGA Combohttp://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157514&ignorebbr=1or buy separatelyMotherboards:$30 : ASRock AM1B-M AM1 :http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157489&ignorebbr=1$35 : GIGABYTE GA-AM1M-S2H AM1 :http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128696&ignorebbr=1or you can go with a mITX motherboard that has the added benefit of a DC In connector, which allows you to use a regular 19v laptop adapter brick, passive.(note though it has only one pci-e slot so you'd only be able to add one extra card, see below)$48 : ASRock AM1H-ITX AM1 :http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157491&ignorebbr=1CPUs (maybe cheaper on Amazon or somewhere else, newegg was just easy to use):$32 : AMD 2650 kabini dual core 1.4 ghz :http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA1UH3ZW2894$38 : AMD 3850 kabini quad core 1.3 ghz :http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819113366&ignorebbr=1$43 : AMD 5350 quad core 2.05 ghzhttp://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819113364&ignorebbr=1Optional (passive heatsink):$11 : Arctic Alpine M1 Passive Cooling Fan ACALP00005A :https://www.amazon.com/Arctic-Alpine-Passive-Cooling-ACALP00005A/dp/B00U8PUNH2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477266281&sr=8-1&keywords=am1+passive+heatsinkMemory : as much as you want, plain DDR3 up to 16 GB or 32 GB depending on motherboard . AM1 cpus are single channel so no benefit from using 2 memory sticks$13 : Kingston 2 GB 1600 Mhzhttp://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820239850&ignorebbr=1NIC :Motherboards have built in 1gbps network card Realtek 8111GR is the most common chip used.Both suggested motherboards have a pci-e x16 slot (electrically x4) and some have one or two pci-e x1 slots.So you could make a system with a 55$ mb/cpu/vga combo + $13 ram stick and some power supply that will use so little power it would never start its fan.You can buy a quality intel quad port gigabit network card from ebay for less than 50$, here's justan example. Here'sanotheroneIf you want, you can buy an additional gigabit intel card on pci-e x1 slot if you prefer to have 5 gigabit ports all intel for whatever better performance you wantIf you want low profile, you can also buy pci-e riser cables for a few dollars each.And it's doable, could be done for less than 100$ if you're in US and you're lucky on ebay.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 12:38:43 am
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 23, 2016, 11:17:37 pmAnother option if performance is not critical is to use a VLAN switch as a network port expander. An 8 port VLAN switch can be had for $35 and when paired with a VLAN NIC, effectively allows 7 separate ethernet ports to be created. Bandwidth is shared between them of course but if that is acceptable, then this will be less expensive than a system with lots of NIC ports.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 01:15:39 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 23, 2016, 11:08:30 pmUmm, I don't think Xeon is anywhere "crappy", but it's too powerful to use as a gateway.Yes ECC is not that critical for a home router. But about your E3 with ECC crashes often, I think that have more relation to the software, or hardware quality, ECC cannot rescue poor script or bad hardware.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 01:17:11 am
content: Quote from: David Hess on October 24, 2016, 12:10:27 amThank you, but it won't be fanless right?

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 01:19:03 am
content: Quote from: jazz on October 24, 2016, 12:13:38 amThank you, but that one is in fact a Chinese brand, they just make it look like from US or somewhere...

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 01:25:16 am
content: Quote from: mariush on October 24, 2016, 12:15:47 amThank you so much, you even picked all the parts.But that seems a bit big, I used to try building mini-PCs for non-router use, and I found even MATX is just a little bigger than ITX, but you cannot find a small case for MATX anyway, all MATX case are similar to ATX, while ITX can be a lot smaller.BTW, ASrock have been heavily merged/moved from Taiwan to mainland China, so I'd better avoid it.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 01:33:34 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 24, 2016, 01:26:14 amI also looked a lot for ES version when I built my own server, but at last I just decided not to buy one, because they are so unsure about stability, and you can buy tray or refurbished for cheap, but be careful to the counterfeit one.Windows 10 crush... Okay then, not surprised at all.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 02:00:08 am
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 24, 2016, 01:25:16 amWho cares if they've moved from Taiwan or China.. all of them (Asus, Asrock, Gigabyte etc) manufacture the printed circuit boards in China and just finish the process somewhere using automated chip shooters etc and some automated and manual testing somewhere, before packaging stuff.It's almost all automated these days.As for cases, you just have to know where to look.Here's a mATX case with 275w psu :http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811154087Here's another mATX case with a 275w psu:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA2F83U57318Not saying they're great power supplies , but for the 30-50w the whole system uses, it will probably do just fine. Note that it probably only works with half height cards, so you would probably have to find a card that's half height and has the half height bracket, or maybe fabricate your own metal bracket.Here's another mATX case :http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811163239but it doesn' have a power supply.Here's an ITX case with 200w psu :http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA85V4FF4300You just have to look everywhere, these are all in htpc / media center cases category.Another option would be to have a look at recycle places freegeek or stuff like that, for old systems in tiny form factors.. don't know the series but I remember some Compaq or IBM desktop in miniature mATX cases.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 02:17:42 am
content: So I found this:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813153309Very amazingjust need to add RAM and chassis.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 02:24:03 am
content: Quote from: mariush on October 24, 2016, 02:00:08 amThank you, umm, I'm not going to argue with you about that, but in my opinion, where the company is based definitely make a difference, it's not the matter where the factory is... However more Chinese company begin to pretend that they are not based in China, those are really annoying and I need to watch out before buy things from a brand not hear before.I found a good board for my need, the JNF9VT-2930, just need RAM and chassis for it, which is very easy now.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 02:27:53 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 24, 2016, 02:24:30 amYes I didn't mentioned I need ECC anyway, plus they are from known Taiwan brand, I think it will be good enough for me.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 02:36:16 am
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 24, 2016, 02:17:42 amIt only has a single ethernet port..

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 02:44:00 am
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 24, 2016, 02:17:42 amQuote from: sam1275 on October 24, 2016, 02:24:03 amI hope you figured out that the motherboard hasonly one gigabit network card. Those 4 ports areserial ports, for cash drawers and other such things, they're not network cards.Also, the SoC is maybe 10-20% slower than that A4-5000 which I recommended initially.The board has the benefit of having DC In 12v but you'd still have to add your 4 gigabit network ports, and you have just one pci-e x1 slot to add them - i suppose you could plug a quad gigabit pci-e x4 card into a x1 slot and it would work but the total bandwidth would be limited to less than 500 MB/s (you have 4x125 MB/s maximum theoretical) because in real world you can't saturate that x1 link.//edit: Monkeh beat me to it, i got confused with the quotes and explanations and lousy temporary keyboard that makes me do lots of typos (takes lots of pressure for keys to work and it makes me miss letters)

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 02:49:18 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 24, 2016, 02:36:16 amQuote from: mariush on October 24, 2016, 02:44:00 amOMG, Thank you guys so much, I nearly purchased thatI didn't know serial port can also use RJ45...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 02:50:26 am
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 24, 2016, 02:49:18 amIt's an 8P8C, not an 'RJ45' (ffs, I wish that stupidity would die, but that requires people to learn not parrot), and it's just a connector. You can use it for anything.

author: jazz
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 03:14:06 am
content: Quote from: mariush on October 24, 2016, 02:44:00 amCareful, PCIe x4 cards don't usually fit in a PCIe x1 slot (physically). You can only rely on smaller cards going into larger slots, but not the other way round.There are "open end" x1 slots that allow longer cards to be plugged in, but to my knowledge they're not very common.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 03:48:56 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 23, 2016, 11:08:30 pmI suggested he look for a second hand one, they had one before that they build with an AMD processor which was decently low power and dirt cheap ... so there's always a chance you can find one for next to nothing.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 03:51:02 am
content: Quote from: jazz on October 24, 2016, 03:14:06 amNothing a rotary tool can't fix, converted a x16 graphics card to x1 that way.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 05:28:10 am
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 24, 2016, 01:17:11 amIt could be with the CPU throttled through the BIOS which will still leave more performance than you specified. Even at full power, it could be fanless if a heat pipe to an expose heat sink was used but offhand I do not know of any cases which provide that.The more likely problem is with other parts of the system and general air flow.

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 06:32:57 am
content: One NIC is fine for a router, when coupled with a proper managed-switch with VLANs (router on a stick). On linux you end up with a separate ifconfig interfaces for wan, lan, admin, voip etc, just as if you had physically separated NICs, and they're all completely isolated broadcast domains. Being able to trunk separate lans over the same physical medium/cable is also very handy.I like the simple PC Engines boards - no fan and low heat. When I was looking at this I discovered that some of the higher-ended boards (microtik?) with dedicated switching hardware, have better headline performance, but only for simple layer-2 switching scenarios, and the firmware support is not open-source, requiring custom kernels or drivers.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 01:29:22 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on October 24, 2016, 05:28:10 amThank you, I've looked at your recommendations again, they would do make a good HTPC or so, but for my case, I would have to buy some other NIC or switch, and a ATX power supply, and think about how to coll that 25W CPU...I know there's DC-ATX modules, however I had bad experience with them, both a PicoATX and a supermicro DC-ATX do not work on my Biostar ITX AMD board, they are 60 and 80w while CPU is only 15W, the board work fine on a 450w ATX PSU, but I wouldn't put that big PSU in the case, I don't know why, all parts are brand new, so I'd better go with a DC motherboard or just buy a barebone, I'm tired to waste money on those incompatible parts...

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 01:31:53 pm
content: Quote from: julian1 on October 24, 2016, 06:32:57 amThank you, how can I tell if a NIC support Vlan or not? However I'm prefer to not use a switch, especially a managed one, I really want to keep this build a all-in-one sulution.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 01:43:50 pm
content: I found this one:http://www.mini-box.com/Jetway-JNF9HG-2930-CeleronAll good except the price is a bit higher.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 02:09:25 pm
content: https://superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=MB-A2358FThis one is also good, but it use ATX power supply... At least I could try the supermicro DC-ATX with more success rate.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 07:11:06 pm
content: Seems $150 is still difficult, I may have to save more money...And I find more:http://estore.dfi.com/index.php/embedded-boards/bt101-bt103.htmlThis have a DC input, but only 2 NIC onboard.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 07:16:39 pm
content: There are few boards with that many NICs, because switching in software sucks when you can use dedicated hardware.

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 08:21:22 pm
content: I don't understand why you are so stubborn about having those gigabit ports on board.You can buy low height dual gigabit cards for less than 15$ each, here's just one example $13 for an Intel based card on pci-e x4 :http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-NC360T-Dual-Port-PCI-e-Gigabit-Network-Adapter-412651-001-Low-Profile-ONLY-/112159323402?hash=item1a1d37750a:g:ZGcAAOxyOMdS4dLVThese cards will also work in x1 slots, there's enough bandwidth in those slots for 2 gigabit ports. Worst case scenario you spend a couple of dollars for a x1 to x4 or x8 or 16 riser cable.I gave you a list of suggestions, such as that $50 Asrock board with DC In connector for example, to save you the space you'd normally use for an ATX psu. Add $35 for the cpu, add 10$ for completely passive heatsink if desired (the cpu will probably keep the fan at low speeds usually) and then get a quad gigabit network card and you're done.Or, go with the 55$ A4-5000 based motherboard and you have 3 pci-e slots to use as you like... but you'll need an atx power supply (or something to plug in that atx connector.For example, you could plug a quad gigabit or a low height dual gigabit on the x16 (physical) slot, and two single gigabit low profile (or not) cards, one in each x1 slot. You can find low profile Intel gigabit network cards for less than $10 on ebay.There's nothing behind at least one of the pci-e x1 slots, so in theory you can get a knife (or blade, whatever) and cut the very thin wall at the end of those connectors. PCI-E conectors are designed that way, you can safely plug a x4 or higher card into the x1 slot and leave part of the card's pins outside the connector and the card should run just fine but at limited x1 speeds (unless the firmware refuses to start the card if it has less than 2 or 4 lanes, which is rare but not unheard of).Even a x1 lane gives the card up to 500 MB/s which is way more than the 2gbps (~250MB/s) a dual gigabit card would use.There's even low profile dual gigabit cards on pci-e x1, but they're often more expensive , here's a50$ exampleSo you could have even more than 4 network ports... could have 2 + 4 + 2 for example.

author: Howardlong
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2016, 11:01:28 pm
content: Quote from: Marco on October 24, 2016, 03:51:02 am... or one of the many PCIe 16x 1x riser options for <$10 since the bitcoin mining arms race on GPUs gave way to ASICs.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 04:43:56 am
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 24, 2016, 01:29:22 pmIt is definitely a compromise but I like that it uses standard parts making it easier to repair if necessary and people often have spare cases and power supplies or a junked PC can be picked up cheap for its case and power supply.I do not think you are going to find a motherboard with the number of ethernet ports you want within your budget so either NICs or a VLAN switch are going to be needed.Do not be fooled by the 25 watt thermal power of the CPU. That is beyond worst case in an application like this unless you end up using it as a remote PC and even then, the BIOS settings can be used to limit power dissipation.Is there any reason you absolutely do not want a fan? Even if it is just a quiet power supply fan, that will expand your options quite a bit.

author: julian1
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 05:13:32 am
content: QuoteAny good brand NIC will support VLAN tagging. It's just a number that is tacked into an ethernet frame. I think even the USB to Ethernet sticks support it. The complicated bit is implementing the actual frame switching policies in hardware, and/or kernel side.I've used PC engines, Intel NUC, and Chromebox'es as routers with VLANs and they all worked well with linux. But they were coupled with a IOS capable enterprise Cisco switch (a couple of hundred dollars second-hard and EOL, which may be more than you want to pay). For me it was worth it for the learning experience - and because it simplified my network and cabling.

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 08:54:47 am
content: Quote from: julian1 on October 25, 2016, 05:13:32 amthe standard ethernet frame is 1518 bytes long (1500 bytes payload) , the 802.1q header is 4 bytes long.. the only requirement is that the NIC must be capable of handling longer frames (1522 max in this case).. and actually you would need a really archaic NIC to run into trouble

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 10:02:58 am
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 24, 2016, 01:25:16 amNonsense. You should spend a little more time on market research than it would take to boil the water for a nice hot cup of coffeeThe Silverstone Temjin TJ08-E (mATX mini tower) has 30.2 liters volume. It is true that this is roughly the same volume as a small ATX desktop case. However, such ATX cases are restrictive and generally do not allow you to build a high(er) end system with them, whereas the the TJ08-E allows you to build a high-end air-cooled system with it.Okay, your goal is not really to build a high-end desktop. So scratch what i just said.How about the Silverstone PS08 (also a mATX mini tower)? Its volume is just 23.9 liters.Still too large? How about the Silverstone Sugo SG02-F? It is a mATX case with a volume of only 22.5 litersBoth of these cases are closer in size to the majority of mITX cases on the market than to ATX cases.Silverstone offers different models with different front fascias but the same frame/volume as the three i mentioned above.Also, Silverstone is not what you would call an exotic or "boutique brand". They are in the market since many many years and are a well known case maker selling worldwide through ordinary retail channels, which makes it a bit surprising to me that you seemingly only found mATX cases as big as ATX 'closets'.I guess, it would not be too difficult to find some small mATX enclosures from other manufacturers on Newegg, Amazon, or whoever. I would have looked myself, but the water for my coffee cup is boiling and i am looking forward to enjoy some delicious hot coffee in a few momentsOn the other hand, i wouldn't be surprised if there would not be many other small-ish mATX cases aside from Silverstone models. Considering the current fashion ("current" as in: the last time i did a cursory glance at the PC case markter about half a year ago...) of terribly over-sized mITX cases, i wonder which manufacturer currently would put in the efforts to make and market compact cases, whether mATX or mITX. Yes, mITX cases can be much smaller than mATX cases. But with the market favoring mITX cases that are almost as big or even bigger than compact mATX cases right now, it seems to me finding a truly compact mITX case is as easy (or hard) as finding a truly compact mATX case...

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 10:24:11 am
content: Quote from: elgonzo on October 25, 2016, 10:02:58 ami don't know what kind of mini ITX you talking about but my very computer i'm writing this post on is a mini ITX system in a "standard" miniITX case (TFX powersupply) with dimensions 30x28x10cm that yields roughly 8.5 litres.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 10:33:09 am
content: Quote from: rob77 on October 25, 2016, 10:24:11 amDid i anywhere wrote that small compact mITX cases do not exist?I am talking about the majority of mITX cases on the market. I even wrote it there... do you see it?Do you also see which argument i was responding to?

author: rob77
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 11:44:48 am
content: Quote from: elgonzo on October 25, 2016, 10:33:09 ami was just responding to your statementQuotei see what's the majority of mini ITX cases over here - all of them are around 10litres mark... the ones which are taking both mITX and mATX boards are close to 20litres. so the mATX cases are close to universal cases in volume but not to dedicated miniITX ones.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 02:26:30 pm
content: Thank you everyone! You provided many useful answers and I'm appreciate them.I'm marking this thread as solved, and I'll do research more and decide one, and you're totally welcome to continue post in.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 02:42:46 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on October 25, 2016, 04:43:56 amThank you, yes I may have to throw away some requirement, but here's why I want those:Fanless: Because I'm really hurt by my rack-mount server's fan, I cannot sleep or even relax well without a 3M earpiece in my house. Plus fanless means much less dust and fail rate for 24*7 operation.DC-input: Because I have very bad experience with those PicoPSUs, and it's nonsense and impossible to put a 300W+ full PSU in a tiny ITX build.All on-board NIC: Because I want to build a self-contained device. I remember many Pfsense guys says to me in forum "Why you want a USB wireless, get a damn AP!" Okay then, imaging how many separate devices will be, a big main router with full ATX PSU, a managed switch, and a AP, to function like a normal wireless router... I totally know it will be much better than a consumer router for anyway, and that's why I build it, but I still want it not too bloat.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 02:45:19 pm
content: Quote from: elgonzo on October 25, 2016, 10:02:58 amThank you very much.I'm sorry but Silverstone is a Chinese brand, it fakes to be a USA one. Basically a case won't hurt my hardware if I don't use it's PSU, but it's still looks too big, so not worth to me...

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 03:03:57 pm
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 25, 2016, 02:45:19 pmOh seriously get over it. They're actually Taiwanese, but if you're just going to reject anything with a hint of China you may as well get off the planet.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 03:20:09 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 25, 2016, 03:03:57 pmTaiwan brands are good

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 03:37:22 pm
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 25, 2016, 02:45:19 pmThat's fine. I never suggested that mATX cases were or were not what would be best for your use case, nor was something along these lines a point in my previous argument. (It was meant as a response to your assumption that there are not compact mATX cases available or hard to find...)Most (if not all?) Silverstone cases are not sold with a pre-installed PSU, so i am not sure what you were looking at. (Silverstone PSUs are not what one would call a Chinese firecracker. But they are also not what one would call 'top shelf goods'. I myself prefer Seasonics PSUs, so i can understand your reluctance there...)Quote from: sam1275 on October 25, 2016, 02:45:19 pmIf you mean with "Chinese brand" a company from the Republic of China, then yes, it is.And why would you think they pretend to be an American brand? o_O

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 03:52:49 pm
content: Thank you.After some research, David Hess's advice of AM1 is impressive, it's inexpensive, high performance and with ECCBut I can only find ASUS AM1M-A confirmed support ECC, even the similar AM1I-A don't.So do anyone know any AM1 ITX board support ECC? Or at least a freaking small mATX case which barely larger than the motherboard? I don't even need a full PSU or 3.5 HDD in it, but it should fit a passive cooler like this:https://www.amazon.com/Arctic-Alpine-Passive-Cooling-ACALP00005A/dp/B00U8PUNH2/Thanks!

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 03:55:19 pm
content: Quote from: elgonzo on October 25, 2016, 03:37:22 pmThank you, err, but Monkeh says it's Taiwanese, really confuse.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 04:10:39 pm
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 25, 2016, 03:52:49 pmSo the cooler is 7cm thick... Maybe I cannot use a too small case

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 04:16:51 pm
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 25, 2016, 03:55:19 pmMonkeh is correct (and so am i). Taiwan's official name is the Republic of China (ROC).The communist (mainland) China which we usually call "China" is officially the People's Republic of China (PRC).My apologies if i confused you. I was trying to be a funny... ...smartass...

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 04:43:13 pm
content: Quote from: elgonzo on October 25, 2016, 04:16:51 pmThanks, I understand this, from political point it's even more confusing about China and Taiwan, but I always prefer to treat them as completely different country when choosing a IT brand, Taiwan products are just good as US ones, but mainland China can only produce rubbish, sorry but this is reality.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 04:44:21 pm
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 25, 2016, 04:43:13 pmNo, no it really isn't. But it's clear they've got you thoroughly fooled by putting their HQs across the border in Taiwan.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 04:50:16 pm
content: I looked at building a pfSense machine recently. Motherboards with more than two Ethernet ports are hard to find and usually not cheap. The best option seemed to be a small, low power mini-ITX board with one or two PCI multi-port NICs.Actual Intel brand NICs are invariable recommended over anything else. Two ports with a separate unmanaged switch will work.There are power supplies with ATX type connectors that come in small form factors. You aren't stuck with a full sized one. The ones used in my HP Microservers are about 6" x 3" x 1.5", and way more power than needed at 150 watts.The Microservers have passively cooled chips on the motherboard with a big 120mm case fan and a 40mm in the power supply. You can barely hear them 6 feet away. Having fans does not mean loud.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 05:11:45 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on October 25, 2016, 04:50:16 pmPicoPSUsshould also be considered if space is at a premium...EDIT: Saw just now that sam already mentioned PicoPSUs and the problems he had with one of them. Bummer....

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 05:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 25, 2016, 04:10:39 pmApparently you haven't heard of pliers or some other tools that would allow you to bend the fins sideways to reduce height. Yeah it may look ugly but it would be just as efficient.But keep in mind that you'll also have the height of the low-heght pci-e cards unless you decide on using riser cables for all to make your system as flat as possible.And what's wrong with that $55 motherboard with soldered cpu and passive heatsink i suggested , besides lack of ECC ... that A4-5000 is just a slightly lower perfomance 5150 that otherwise you would buy for ~ 30And why are you looking at 300-400w power supplies when the whole system will average less than 50$?Spend more time researching power supplies, you'll find some good one with less wattage and some even passively cooled (or capable of being passively cooled).Here's for example a small 180w power supply :http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA10V4NC7179It has a 20pin atx connector, 1 4pin cpu power connector and one molex and one sata connectors - most motherboards should work with just a 20 pin cable in the 24 pin atx connector but if the motherboard you choose has issues with it, you could always get a 20pin to 24pin cable adapter cable (here's justone example)That power supply is cheap at $13 and small, the only downsides would be the lousy efficiency at ~ 65-70% but at up to 50w power consumption who cares... the only other downside is the small 40 mm fan but considering you'll have the power supply in a case, you could disconnect the small fan and remove the top cover and this way the air would move through the case and keep things cool.The fan is there to make sure the power supply will work when it actually has to output 180w 24/7 (when due to poor efficiency it will dissipate 20-30w on small heatsinks , so fan has to push air over the small heatsinks to keep temperature down). At peak power consumption of 50w or less the power supply may not need that airflow at all, just the normal air movement through the case could be enough.But just to be on the safe side, you could buy a nice 92-120mm fan and connect it at 5v so that it would spin at very low rpm that you won't even hear it but it would make some air movement through the case, over the cpu passive heatsink and over the power supply heatsinks.Keep in mind that those AM1 processors have a TDP of 25w but a big part of that is caused by the integrated video card. if you're using it as a router/headless device, the video card will barely use any power, and the cpu side will not get even close to 15-20w ... and Isincerely doubt you'd so such heavy switching and packet manipulation that you'd use al four cores at 100%.. the average power used by the cpu alone will probably be less than 10 watts. You're left with 5-10 watts used by the motherboard (and you can take it down a bit by disabling stuff you don't need in a router like onboard audio) and you're left with whatever power is used by fans and hard drives and so on... but you can boot from a usb stick, using one of the internal usb headers and therefore you won't use any power with the hard drives.The separate NIC cards probably use 2-3 watts each.

author: rdl
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 05:32:47 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on October 25, 2016, 05:18:36 pmAh yes, Flex ATX - thanks mariush. That is the form factor used in my Microservers. I could not remember the name. That's a good deal by the way. FSP is one of the better PS manufacturers. For $12 with shipping included, I just ordered one as a back up.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 05:52:48 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on October 25, 2016, 05:32:47 pmThe two dominant small-size PSU form factors (with regard to PCs) are FlexATX (long narrow-ish brick) and SFX (more like a cube, kind-of mini version of the ATX form factor). FlexATX is somewhat more prevalent than SFX due to it being a suitable form factor for 1U rack-mount chassis.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 07:03:31 pm
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 25, 2016, 02:42:46 pmA slow fan can be practically silent while improving the cooling many times over which itself improves reliability. Dust can be a problem at high air flow rates and in some locations but that is the exception rather than the rule.One trick for silent air cooled operation is to use a large but slow (low pressure) fan to positively pressurize the case and then add a large area filter to the intake. The filter dampens any fan noise but needs to have a large area, ideally larger than the fan area, to allow enough air through at a low pressure. The low air flow also helps prevent picking up dust. Operating the fan at low speed also usually results in long operating life; if you pick the right fan and perhaps maintain it periodically (keep the bearings oiled), then it will not limit reliability at all.QuoteFinding a reliable power supply is definitely a problem. Those PicoPSUs should be pretty good so I am surprised that you had so much trouble withthem. I do not understand your statement about a DC input.I have always thought there is a market for a low power high reliability conductivity cooled ATX type of power supply.QuoteI would consider one or two PCIe boards mounted with a motherboard inside of an enclosure self contained.I know about that recommendation from the pfSense guys since I am one of the older pfSense/m0n0wall people making it. Due to poor documentation and various restrictions, the OS drivers for various WiFi implementations are always behind and often of questionable reliability. It is just easier to use a separate self contained AP; I like Ubiquity CPEs for this but others have their own favorites.

author: David Hess
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 07:35:38 pm
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 25, 2016, 03:52:49 pmI think there is at least one other similar AM1 board out there with ECC support from maybe ASROCK or GIGABYTE.Back when the ASUS AM1M-A first came out, there wasdiscussion about whether it really supported ECCor not and tests showed that it did.QuoteThat would be nice but I do not know of any. There are Intel basedITX server motherboardsandNetwork appliance type boardswith ECC though if you want to spend the money. I like the AMD AM1 solution because it is so much less expensive and easier to maintain and repurpose.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 08:28:19 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 25, 2016, 04:44:21 pmI'll try my best to avoid mainland China product, and I know some are faked to be other country, thew Silverstone is a highly suspect one.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 08:31:20 pm
content: Quote from: rdl on October 25, 2016, 04:50:16 pmThank you, I know big low speed fans are very quiet, so just like "onboard NIC" and other requirements, they may be dismissed if I have to.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 08:35:17 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on October 25, 2016, 05:18:36 pmThank you, but I'm not willing to do some violent mod like bending the heatsink, besides that will degrade the ability of it and make the fanless dangerous.I used to try that A4 5000 board, and it won't work with a PicoPSU, I know flex ATX things, but they are still over kill and the most important, they must be used with a case designed to mount it.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 08:40:19 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on October 25, 2016, 07:03:31 pmThank you very much, many things I've posted to reply others about the PSU above, for "dc-input" I mean those motherboards don't use a 20/24 pin ATX power input, they use a single 2-pin DC input.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 08:42:25 pm
content: So what you want is: A product not made in China (that's none of them), which has enough onboard ethernet for all of your devices (that's very few of them), which has an x86 CPU without needing an ATX power supply (again few), totally passive cooling without requiring a case bigger than a purpose designed MIPS router (that's very very few again), requires no physical work to put together, and is as cheap as an off the shelf consumer router?Good luck. Reality is calling me.Now, if you can get over your insane fear of Chinese products..

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 08:46:29 pm
content: Quote from: David Hess on October 25, 2016, 07:35:38 pmYes I searched and read many people messing with AM1 ECC, basically the only working one is the ASUS mATX one, the ITX version do not POST with ECC, and MSI's is not fully functioning.I don't want to mess with those "big" server board this time, I did built 1 or 2 servers and they are good, but it's too powerful to use as a firewall...

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 08:54:13 pm
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 25, 2016, 08:42:25 pmI'm not mean it cannot made in China, I'm just avoiding mainland China brands.I'm not looking for a router sized, I'm looking for a ITX one, similar to the M350 case.I'm not mean I don't want put things together, but at least they can be put together, not too many standalone devices.Thank you anyway.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 08:56:32 pm
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 25, 2016, 08:54:13 pmPointless. And prevents you finding products which meet your requirements.If you'll get down off your high horse and accept that yes, you can get good hardware without it having an American name on it, I can show you a $130 product which ticks a lot of boxes (fanless, 12VDC input, quad gigabit NICs, mini-ITX, VGA...). But if you insist on avoiding the only companies who MAKE THE DAMN THINGS, you're fucked.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 04:46:50 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 25, 2016, 08:56:32 pmThank you, but sorry, I can list tons of them if I'm willing to use Chinese brands, and at that point I won't even need to make this thread posted. I rather like to be fucked by the hard selection, than be fucked by a Chinese rubbish.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 04:48:10 am
content: So please tell me how this Chinese rubbish doesn't work.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 04:52:51 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on October 26, 2016, 04:48:10 amChinese products are well known low quality, although cheap. Most people should already know that, and if you even refuse this, okay then.Sorry but would you guys stop fire at me for this please? This is just my personal preference.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 04:56:46 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 26, 2016, 04:52:11 amSorry if some previous saying seems offend to you, but I'm just facing the truth and try not let twisted mind Chinese products destroy my basic PC in mind.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 05:00:25 am
content: Quote from: sam1275 on October 26, 2016, 04:52:51 amI suspect I know a lot more about it than you. Chinese products can be perfectly fine. In this class you more or less make a working product or you don't exist, and with your apparent requirements.. I doubt you'd notice any problems which do exist.Quote from: sam1275 on October 26, 2016, 04:56:46 amThe truth is you're being ignorant, biased, and I dare say a bigot. And we have Chinese members on this forum, so yes, you're offending people, and you're not remotely sorry.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 05:49:54 am
content: I will stop reply any comment about why I don't want use Chinese brand, because it's just my personal preference and I don't want this thread to go off topic, and don't want to argue with anyone here.

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 12:17:59 pm
content: I need a memory now.DDR3L(1.35v) 1333(10600) 2GB SO-DIMM(204-pin laptop) Unbuffered ECC1066 instead of 1333 is fine too, other must comply.I cannot find anyThank you.Found an alternative.

author: elgonzo
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 03:20:05 pm
content: Google... Amazon... Newegg... PCPartPicker...Much luck hunting down those 2GB modules you want. Those are rather uncommon these days. Some dealers, among them Amazon (or Amazon marketplace dealers) should still have some, but chances are pretty good you pay as much money as for a 4GB module. Speaking about 4GB modules - these should (still) be rather easy to find...

author: sam1275
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 26, 2016, 04:11:50 pm
content: Quote from: elgonzo on October 26, 2016, 03:20:05 pmThank you, I found an alternative, they are really rare.