First oscilloscope for third-year EE student - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: RedFantom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 04:44:07 pm
content: Hello everyone!Yes, this is yet another thread of some student trying to figure out what to spend his money on. I've done a fair bit of research over the last couple of months (mostly on these forums), but I still can't decide what oscilloscope to get.I had actually purchased a Rigol DS1054Z, but that was so slow and unresponsive that I really did not like it at all. When I tried the FFT on a 10kHz oscillator and saw that I could not even go beyond 35dB SNR on it and I couldn't even see the harmonics (I had hoped for 45-50dB, I got 60dB with a Keysight DSOX3014T at Uni), I was so disillusioned that I returned it the same day.That was about three months ago. Now, I still would like to buy an oscilloscope, because I've got quite a few projects that I have gotten annoyed with because I can't see what's actually going on in my circuits. I really, really want an oscilloscope.So, my budget is about €500. But, that does not necessarily mean it all has to go to an oscilloscope. I've got quite an assortment of power adapters I'd like to get rid off, for example.So, as for background: I'm a soon-to-be third-year Electrical Engineering student at University. I am very interested in tinkering with circuits involving analog signals (I even hope I might be able to design a low-bandwidth oscilloscope front-end at some point, because they are so freakin' cool), but I also use quite a lot of digital things (like Arduino, STM32, Raspberry Pi, that kind of stuff). The highest frequency signal any of my devices can create is the 100MHz maximum PWM signal generated by my BeagleBone Black, but I doubt I will need to measure that.The four options I am currently looking at are:Siglent SDS1104X-E@ €520: This is the real oscilloscope that I've determined to best suit my needs. It has four channels, good serial protocol decoding, a decent FFT from what I've seen (I couldn't find any material showing more than just that it exists) and the software should be a lot more responsive than the Rigol's. However, I am worried about the reliability and quality of the software.Rigol DS2102E@ €500, with all upgrades: This oscilloscope has recently become available for a reduced price (almost like there's a successor coming out soon, hmmm...), but it only has two channels. It looks a lot more responsive than the DS1054Z though, and it seems Rigol has more mature software than Siglent. Still, based on pure specifications alone, it doesn't look like a good deal, but I wansn't able to find many reviews on it. The FFT is listed as only 2k points, but I couldn't find whether it was upgraded like the DS1054Z was. Even then, I probably won't use it _that_ much, so using my computer for better FFTs would seem acceptable if this really is the best choice.Keysight EDUX1002A(2 analog channels only) @ €500: Yes, the whole Keysight-is-giving-uni-scopes-at-a-reduced-price-to-make-EE-students-Keysight-fanboys is paying off. The scopes at the university are a pleasure to use, always act logically and are just very nice overall. However, this one just seems very expensive for what I would be getting. It does all the basic things, but no high-resolution FFTs, it's relatively low-bandwidth, only optional serial decoding, no segmented memory, small memory to begin with... Of course, I could try to hack it once it is out of warranty, but I wouldn't want to try that before that time. Still, that Keysight logo inspires confidence.Digilent/NI Analog Discovery 2, including probes and BNC board @ €210: This seems like a very tempting option. My desktop computer is right next to my workbench, so needing my computer would never be a problem. I've used an NI myDAQ before, and I really liked how I could post-process the data with Python. It has limited bandwidth and only two analog channels, that's the downside. As my BeagleBone Black can also function as a logic analyzer, I do not need that functionality all that much, but the bode plotter and great-looking FFT sure are tempting. Saving €300 would allow me to explore some more expensive projects and maybe get a power supply.I am looking for a device that will allow me to finish my non-working projects (most of them are Arduino-level) by looking at the signals, and then starting new ones involving analog signals, mostly. I will be using my BeagleBone Black, Pynq Z2 (Zynq Z7000 FPGA board) and STM32 microcontrollers in those projects as well, but I don't think I'll be looking at square wave signals of over 2MHz any time soon. I want it to at least last through all of my Master's degree as well.I'd rather spend the €500 now and be happy with my choice than spend €200 now and €500 next year, because this money is like a single-occurrence thing. Again, I am not going to change my mind on the DS1054Z no matter how many fans it has: I'm glad that there are lots of people who like it, but I have gotten spoiled by the great Keysight scopes at Uni.If you would, please share your opinion on these choices. I don't really want to go any higher budget-wise, given that there other priorities money-wise as well. Even though I live in a student room, I have a spot a real scope would fit nicely, so that's not a consideration. I know I am pretty spoiled with the amazing oscilloscopes available at university (only for university work, unfortunately), but usability is a very important factor. The DS1054Z appeased my needs in all ways but speed and FFT, really. Last but not least: I live in the Netherlands, and the second-hand market for digital oscilloscopes here is pretty much non-existent.Thank you for your time and effort. I hope you can tolerate a newbie like me asking a question like this.TL;DR;Siglent SDS1104X-E, Rigol DS2102E, Keysight EDUX1002A or Analog Discovery 2 (at €300 less than the others) for a soon-to-be third-year EE student hoping to dip his toes in the water on analog circuit design.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 04:58:30 pm
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 24, 2019, 04:44:07 pmFFT isn't the Rigol's strong point but it depends on the firmware version. The original firmware was reallyterrible, now it's just not very good.Quote from: RedFantom on June 24, 2019, 04:44:07 pmOTOH you're comparing a $350 oscilloscope with a $3500 oscilloscope so it's not really fair.Quote from: RedFantom on June 24, 2019, 04:44:07 pmIf you're interested in Arduinos and digital stuff then buying only two channels would be a big mistake. If you're really, really interested in FFTs then not buying the Analog discovery would be a big mistake (it has a 14-bit ADC).The one device not on your list is the GW Instek GDS-1054B. It has 4 channels, it's not bad at analog stuff and it can be hacked to add a lot more bandwidth and features (you can use plugin modules from higher-end models on the base device). Best of all: It doesn't cost much more than the Rigol DS1054Z.Read this thread:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/possible-gw-instek-gds-1000b-hack/msg1256089/#msg1256089

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 05:05:26 pm
content: I congratulate you for your well resourced request for help. You deserve to be helped!My opinion:1. Siglent - the best of the 4 that you list. Still receiving very nice upgrades.2. Rigol - Don't go there. I've sold mine very recently.3. You should be accustomed because of your experiences but that Siglent is better and continues to improve.4. I think you should go for a stand-alone.If I hadn't bought the MSO5000, the option would be a SDS1104X-E.

author: graybeard
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 05:06:20 pm
content: I bought the Siglient SDS1104X-E for myself and I could not be happier with my purchase. It is much easier to use than the R&S scope I am presently using at work, though not as capable, but that R&S RTB2004 is a $4K scope. I had a dual beam (1MHz) Tektronix 503A when I was an undergrad.For the FFT on scopes is of limited use because of the 8bit ADC that digitizes the signal places an inherent limit on dynamic range you can see. Knowing that I have been happy with the SDS1104X-E FFT when I have used it.The bode plot capability of the Siglent is excellent. I just posteda video of measuring impedance using it along with a current probe and function generator. Although I used a current probe you could easily build an op-amp circuit to sample the current and do the same thing.Whatever you get get a real bench scope, and not some USB box that will become obsolete as OSs and computers evolve. You will use the scope as a fundamental lab item for many years so get a good one!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 05:09:46 pm
content: The GDS-1054B is definitely one to consider. It costs 499 euro from Eleshop.nl and unlike the other 4 channel choices it has individual channel controls.

author: RedFantom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 05:29:31 pm
content: Before I start: Thank you for all the replies so far, this is already very helpful! I'm going to clip the quotes for conciseness, as I'm used to doing that on other forums as well. Please let me know if that's not okay.Quote from: Fungus on June 24, 2019, 04:58:30 pmLike I said: I'm kind of spoiled. It was more the bad FFT on top of everything else (even with the firmware updated) that made me return it. For €379 wanted something I would want to use every day, even if for the real things I would still have to find some way to sneak into the university labs. I will definitely take another look at the GW Instek, but unfortunately it is €599. While I might be willing to pay that much if it's really a good investment, I was hoping to avoid it.Quote from: tv84 on June 24, 2019, 05:05:26 pmThank you for sharing your opinion! The biggest thing I am missing in the Keysight is the decoding, and those licenses haven't been hacked yet, as far as I've seen (though I'm still working through the hacking thread). Did you have a Rigol from the DS2000 series? Why did you sell yours?Quote from: graybeard on June 24, 2019, 05:06:20 pmAbout the FFT: I was very surprised to see 60dB dynamic range on the Keysight at uni because that one also has just an 8-bit ADC. I wonder what trick they pulled there.Making a current measurement like that is actually one of the things I am looking to do in the future. Do you need a Siglent function generator to do the bode plot, or will any sweeping function generator do? I suppose the oscilloscope could technically just measure the frequency of the incoming signal if there are two channels used, right?The software of the Analog Discovery was looking quite decent, and it has proper Linux support, so I was hoping that I would be able to use it for a long time. Still, it is not open-source, so that is really quite a good point: If they ever stop providing binaries, I'd be out of luck...Quote from: nctnico on June 24, 2019, 05:09:46 pmUnfortunately the GDS-1054B is €599 at Eleshop. The 1072B is the one that is €499.Also: I did not include the Owon XDS3104E (@€510) in my list because the consensus seems to be that they're awful. Is this the right decision?

author: bob91343
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 05:33:22 pm
content: I purchased an HP digital 'scope used online for around $250. It works great, has 500 MHz response, four channels, and some other really nice features (such as FFT).So I encourage checking into used gear on ebay. Also there are many consulting engineers who are retiring and getting rid of their equipment. I recently got a nice 150 MHz Tek 2445 for nothing from such a guy. I also won a drawing at a barbecue for a used 2215 Tek, 60 MHz. I had to repair it but that was easy enough.Incidentally, repairing broken gear is one of the best ways to learn electronics. Troubleshooting calls into play many factors, including understanding how things work and what parts substitutions are viable. You don't have to design stuff from scratch all the time.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 05:50:01 pm
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 24, 2019, 05:29:31 pmOn sale at reichelt for 478 euro (inc VAT):https://www.reichelt.nl/7-digitale-opslag-oscilloscoop-50-mhz-4-ch-gds-1054b-p176032.htmlPerhaps Eleshop can math it otherwise ordering from Germany doesn't have to be a bad thing.

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 05:54:16 pm
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 24, 2019, 05:29:31 pmBasically because of the 2 channels . 4-ch end up being useful. And since I managed a bigger budget to do an upgrade, I could afford a little improvement overall. But If I had only your budget, I would for the Siglent.Batronix has it for 510€.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 05:56:01 pm
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 24, 2019, 05:29:31 pmTequipment will sell you one for 338 Euros+TAX:https://www.tequipment.net/Instek/GDS-1054B/Digital-Oscilloscopes/(Set your country to Netherlands)Plus they doEEVBLOG discounts...

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 06:07:05 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 24, 2019, 05:56:01 pmDo they handle customs or is the customer supposed to do that?

author: RedFantom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 06:17:09 pm
content: Quote from: bob91343 on June 24, 2019, 05:33:22 pmThat would be great, if that were a serious option. I have looked around on eBay as well as Marktplaats (the Dutch eBay, they even own it), but the second-hand market is non-existent locally and the whole of Europe seems to be somewhat of a dead-zone when it comes to digital oscilloscopes. Buying from the US and other non-EU countries are a non-starter because of the taxes and import fees. I have asked around to my friends and family, but no luck. I almost had my hands on a DS1054Z yesterday for €200 (thinking I'd live with its limitations for that kind of money), but it was snapped up within minutes.Quote from: nctnico on June 24, 2019, 05:50:01 pmThank you for pointing this out! That is definitely very interesting. I am getting a strong vibe here that everyone thinks the GW-Instek is better than the Siglent?Quote from: Fungus on June 24, 2019, 05:56:01 pmAfter the discount, shipping, taxes and handling fees it comes in at €468.88. I'd rather pay the additional €20 to get the European consumer laws that I know inside out, but thank you for the tip anyway!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 06:27:58 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 24, 2019, 06:07:05 pmThat link I sent you says: "Gegarandeerde totaalkosten (Geen extra kosten bij aflevering)"Quote from: RedFantom on June 24, 2019, 06:17:09 pmNot necessarily, it's more that we believe it's about the same price as a Rigol DS1054Z if you shop around.Quote from: RedFantom on June 24, 2019, 06:17:09 pmI can't seem to find any Insteks in Europe at reasonable prices. Batronix used to do them but I can't find any on their web site any more.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 06:29:02 pm
content: Quote from: tv84 on June 24, 2019, 05:54:16 pmThat depends entirely what you value. The GDS-1054B has free-form math, signal filtering, full memory decoding (after hacking) and user selectable memory depths which the Siglent doesn't have. Especially the latter can be a real nuisance because you'll need to go back & forth between zooming in& out if you want to capture a lot of data but are interested in a detail at first. If you can set the memory depth to full whatever time/div setting you can look at a detail (for example part of a decoded packet) and once you are satisfied zoom out to check the rest without needing to capture another message (or look at how the details/contents of a message changes without needing the entire message on screen somehow).

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 06:53:03 pm
content: Although I don't own any of the models considered, based on conversations and specification sheets I too think that both the SDS1104X-E and the GDS1054B are your top contenders here.The Siglent comes with most (if not all) options already enabled from factory and the GW Instek can be hacked to become comparable to the Siglent (IIRC it has a single 1GSPS ADC, while Siglent has two 1GSPS ADCs). However, in a comparison between the two, what turns me off a bit is that Instek does not offer any of the serial protocols as paid updates - they had them at a certain point but this was removed (checkhere). This may just be nothing, but would there be a good reason to remove them altogether from the scope?You can always get reasonably priced PC-based logic analyzers for the popular low-speed serial protocols.An interesting thread is shown below if you have a good high pass filter that can overcome the S/N ratio lowered by the bickering among some regulars.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/everyday-bench-scope-a-3-way-race-edux1002a-gds-1054b-sds1202x-e/

author: RedFantom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 07:49:10 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 24, 2019, 06:27:58 pmYes, but if I go to checkout it calculates about €60 in shipping and handling fees and the ToS say I am responsible for paying the VAT (21%) myself :-/ . You don't think the €480 offer for the Instek in Germany is acceptable?Quote from: nctnico on June 24, 2019, 06:29:02 pmI'm pretty sure I saw the user-selectable memory depth in a video somewhere... I believe it is the automatic selection of memory depth that was missing, at least at the time of making that video. I can dig around for it in my browsing history, if you'd like.Quote from: rsjsouza on June 24, 2019, 06:53:03 pmI will definitely go over those threads, thank you! My BeagleBone Black can already do 14channels at 100MSps with Sigrok, which is quite nice. Still, I'd like to have the serial decoding option in the oscilloscope as well, as comparing digital to analog waveforms seems useful when working with ADCs and DACs...

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 07:58:22 pm
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 24, 2019, 07:49:10 pmThank you! I somehow missed that; I will break my BBB and validate this with Sigrok!The simultaneous visualization of protocol decoding + analog domain is extremely useful to debug the initial stages of a design - any major flaws with noise margins, jitter, etc. can be tracked much more easily. After these are solved, the larger screen of a PC + a soft logic analyzer takes the edge.

author: Wigo
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 08:01:17 pm
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 24, 2019, 06:17:09 pmAs you are from the Netherlands have a look at "eBay Kleinanzeigen". Most offers are based in Germany and the OScope section is really full. As i do not know how high the shipping would be (but i think it can not be worse that to Austria)maybe you can find used TE there. (I have made the experience that more things are listed and the prices are a little bit more reasonable as on eBay itself.)

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 08:55:12 pm
content: I own many oscilloscopes including the Rigol DS1054Z which is full upgraded. For $330, it is VERY difficult to beat that kind of functionality. It's probably capable of doing 99% of whatever you need right now, it's 4 channels, and it works. If you're really struggling to afford a fancy scope, save your money and deal with the shortcomings of the DS1054Z.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 10:51:47 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on June 24, 2019, 08:55:12 pmBe sure to read the first post.He owned one and returned it the same day.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 11:19:50 pm
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 24, 2019, 04:44:07 pmWell I hadn't had a play with SDS1104X-E FFT with the latest firmware......wow, some significant improvements.....10 MHz from SDG1032X BNC cable and 50 ohm Tek termination.This shows the full screen mode with the source signal that can be hidden with the Exclusive mode.Peak hold = ONThe FFT feature set is now more comprehensive with all sorts of markers, tables and in general easier to use.

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 11:36:50 pm
content: As RedFantom is unfamiliar with this forum it's probably good to note that member nctnico is a bit of a GW-Instek fan and that member tautech is a Siglent dealer.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 11:49:19 pm
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 24, 2019, 11:36:50 pmThat's pretty bloody obvious most would think and plainly visible in my profile personal text.The OP stated this about X-E FFT:I couldn't find any material showing more than just that it existsDid I not just demonstrate it does ?

author: Mr. Scram
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 24, 2019, 11:52:00 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on June 24, 2019, 11:49:19 pmI'm just stating what OP may find useful information, not how one should interpret it.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 08:03:40 am
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 24, 2019, 05:29:31 pmThere is no trick, just very common misunderstandings of what Fourier transforms do to the signal:https://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-001.pdf

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 08:11:25 am
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 24, 2019, 07:49:10 pmI just remember them being a lot cheaper a few months ago. Now they're hard to find and it looks like the price went up.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 08:14:26 am
content: Quote from: Mr. Scram on June 24, 2019, 11:36:50 pmThat is incorrect. GW Instek is a manufacturer which is often overlooked but they have some very decent gear and especially their low end oscilloscopes have several unique features you won't find in that price range. I'm just the voice of the underdog here.

author: RedFantom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 08:34:30 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 24, 2019, 08:47:19 pmI will make sure to adjust my expectations for the FFT performance. As it is mostly analog circuitry I want to tinker with, I thought the FFT would be really important to see the purity of my signals.The course that related the dynamic range to the amount of bits of an ADC was only after I had tried the DS1054Z, so I had hoped for something more accurate even though it was unrealistic.The Keysight with the wavegen would cost me about €250 more than the one without it, and that is still the 2 analog channel only variant (the EDUX1002G). That seems quite steep for the addition... Still, you consider the Keysight a contender here? Because everyone else seems quite convinced that the Siglent and the GW-Instek are the better options, considering I don't really feel comfortable hacking it while it's still in warranty.Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on June 24, 2019, 08:55:12 pmIt is capable of doing most of what I want, but the price difference between the other scopes in the list and the Rigol is not big enough to justify going for the Rigol if I know I am not fully satisfied with it... I bid less than €250 on a DS1054Z on Marktplaats (Dutch eBay), but it was snapped up within minutes. For that kind of money, it would be a no-brainer and I'd live with the limitations. I could even get an AD2 and still have money left over. Unfortunately, that was the only real digital oscilloscope that seems worth getting I've seen on there in the months I've been watching it.Quote from: tautech on June 24, 2019, 11:49:19 pmThe marker functionality is new since thebig PDF reviewthat I somehow missed until yesterday. That review contained lots of detail on the FFT function, and it is looking much, much better than the one on the Rigol. The fact that they keep updating the software is pretty awesome.Quote from: Someone on June 25, 2019, 08:03:40 amI wish they had given us this reader during the course during which they gave us the formula. This is great!Quote from: Fungus on June 25, 2019, 08:11:25 amThat is annoying. I bought the Rigol then because it was the cheapest I could find that fit my criteria (or so I thought, anyway).Right now I'm leaning heavily towards the Siglent, because on that one the serial decoding is included and on the GW Instek the hacking of it seems a bit involved. Considering that the Siglent is only €30 more, it seems like the more reliable choice.A big thanks to everyone who gave their opinion already! I'm planning to order after upcoming Friday (then I have the exam I should be studying for right now), so in the meantime, if anyone has anything to add, please let me know!

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 08:40:43 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 25, 2019, 08:14:26 amOk, anti-Siglent advocate then?Admit it, with a sentence like that you are sounding exactly like Wuerstchenhund and his reason to advocate for LeCroy so fiercely over the years.IMO there's nothing wrong with that, given it brings different angles to the discussion. But it gives the OP an idea on where the tip scales (the reason for Mr Scram's post).

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 08:46:21 am
content: If it comes down to a choice between that and the Siglent for the same money? Most specs are about the same so it's going to be a personal choice. The Siglent has a higher sample rate but the Instek has a much nicer user interface (separate channel controls, a proper button for menu selections instead of pushing a twisty knob... etc).You rejected the Rigol DS1054Z because of its user interface so what's your true priority?

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 08:51:57 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 25, 2019, 08:46:21 amhave you been drinking !50 MHz BW = 100 MHz BW ?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 08:55:55 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 25, 2019, 08:51:57 am300Mhz after hack = 200Mhz after hack.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 09:52:48 am
content: AD2 is whole mini lab in a box. very useful.Siglent has 2x1 GS/s A/D converters. Big difference. And they keep on upgrading software.There are also Micsig tablet scopes. Portable, decent performance.Decide what you need NOW and get that, saving as much money as you can. Or get something else you might need, like multimeter, probes etc etcDuring years you will acquire more than one scope. Also, "I want to buy something really good and keep it for years " mentality is dead. Get over it.Rigol MSO5000 scope would be deemed impossible just 2 years ago.Buying something "good to last you 10 years" means you will pay more for something that will be outdated in 5 years..Also predicting future is not very reliable. Newer buy anything you "might need". It's a quick road to bankruptcy and insanity..

author: edigi
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 11:44:44 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on June 24, 2019, 08:47:19 pmLuckily this is not true.Doubling the FFT points decreases the noise floor by 3dB. For details check this:http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5988-4368EN.pdfQuote from: RedFantom on June 24, 2019, 05:29:31 pmSee also the above.Thus an entry level scope with 1M point FFT can have better than 100dB dynamic range in the FFT output (naturally time domain is restricted by ADC, so this is true only for the FFT output). Roughly 60dB comes from the use of FFT.If averaging is possible this can be even further improved.Naturally it's better not to overrate any single capability of a scope (be it FFT or Bode plot or whatever; e.g. I've used Bode plot in school only, decades ago).Choose what best suit for your needs. If you don't know, probably you don't need the capability that you've missed and in the worst case you have to swap. Nowadays even the entry level scopes are very capable.Checking signals in frequency domain DSA can be a better tool (out of your current budget and scope is indeed the first most important tool).Most scopes that have very capable FFT have terrible UI that is a pain to use (missing start/stop or center/span type control, number of FFT points controlled by time base and so on).

author: RedFantom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 02:18:39 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 25, 2019, 08:46:21 amIf I pay extra for a user interface that I actually enjoy using and responsiveness, that's worth it to me. I understand that the budget scopes are not as capable as the expensive ones, but not separating your UI updating from your data fetching in the software like the Rigol seems to have? No, that's a deal-breaker.The joined channel controls are not something I think will bother me. The Keysights also don't have the buttons on the right of the screen, so I'm already used to not having those. It feels like choosing the GW Instek and the Siglent will involve some arbitrary factors. I like the look of the Siglent better...Quote from: blueskull on June 25, 2019, 08:47:28 amI've never seen the AD2 second-hand on the local market, so I'm not sure it would even sell. The NI myDAQ is going for about €80, but that is because one of the Universities in The Netherlands requires it.The impedance analyzer is another very interesting feature, even if it requires another add-on board. Still: Right now, I have the money and all of it is 'allocated' for buying an oscilloscope. Everything I don't spend will move to my savings account instead (not that saving isn't smart... But I have the money).Quote from: edigi on June 25, 2019, 11:44:44 amThat is interesting and incredibly good to know at the same time! I will certainly go over this reader as well when I have the time. The FFT UI of the Siglent, at least, is looking just fine to me. At least, when comparing it to the ones in the University lab. The one thing the Keysights indeed miss is selecting how many points are used manually, and it doesn't even show it :-/ .Quote from: 2N3055 on June 25, 2019, 09:52:48 amThe Keysight DSOX3014T at the University also has a touchscreen. I've tried it, but I preferred the physical knobs and buttons. I could adjust them more easily while keeping one hand free to hold something in the circuit or hold a screwdriver.Nothing is future-proof: I get that. That's not what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for a scope that won't make me drool over the models that will be released next year, and the year after that. There's already plenty to drool over in the €1000+ range, let alone the actual DSOX3014T. All I am looking for is a scope that will facilitate the projects that I have in mind now and then after through my master's degree.The real question here is: Will the AD2 be able to crunch the projects I have in mind right now and the ideas that I have for future ones? The ones that I currently want to do are definitely possible with the AD2. Some of the ideas I have, though, maybe not... I'll think on it.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 03:02:43 pm
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 25, 2019, 02:18:39 pmThat is another positive aspect of the GW Instek: it really is easier to use because of having both vertical and horizontal buttons. I used to own an older Agilent oscilloscope on that doing trivial stuff like setting up decoding was much harder because you need to go through so many menu levels.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 03:15:00 pm
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 25, 2019, 02:18:39 pmOf course not, nobody wants to part with theirs.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 25, 2019, 04:03:42 pm
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 25, 2019, 02:18:39 pmI suspect you may be disappointed by any budget offer. Despite the more modern variants are more responsive than the previous Rigol generations, they are not comparable with the Keysight DSOX3k, especially if your screen is busy with measurements, multiple channels, decoding, etc.In this case, I would perhaps try to find a local rep or a demo unit to play before you buy. I suspect this will be hard to do, but at least you may get a feel before investing money on the product. If you can't do that, carefully watch the many reviews on the web and try to make a judgment call.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 10:22:43 am
content: Mr. Scram - I did read the whole thread (at the time is was < 1 page). I know RedFantom had a DS1054Z and rejected it but then a lot of the discussion addressed his feeling that the FFT was poor.2N3055 - I'm with you, buying gear that has some feature you think you may need in the future is usually a waste of money.RedFantom - I paid $285 US for my DS1054Z from Tequipment.net (after eevblog discount) with free shipping - it was an open-box item that they have from time to time, they said it was a "DS1054Z-B"

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 11:19:43 am
content: Just buy the cheapest scope you can get. Anything will show you a waveform and open your world into electronics.Spend the rest on other stuff you need.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 11:27:26 am
content: You won't touch the 1054Z, but you'll consider the 2000 series Rigol?For a student the Analog Discovery is a decent option. It's not a "real" scope in that it doesn't have a decent vertical front end, standalone operation, higher bandwidth, or fast updating or segmented memory etc, but it does a lot of stuff useful for education.You seem to be pretty demanding here for your first scope, to the point where you don't really have an option that suits all your stated needs?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 11:34:55 am
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 25, 2019, 02:18:39 pmIn your first budget scope there should be no real "deal breaker" in the regards to UI and usability. You will get used to any scope and it'll do the job.QuoteThe AD2 is basically an educational tool, it has some nice DSA features no scope can match, and it's 14 bit converter can be very useful. But apart from that it makes a horrible everyday use scope.If you are annoyed by the 1054Z and various UI quirks, then the limitations of the AD2 will annoy you more.

author: RedFantom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 12:34:04 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on June 25, 2019, 04:03:42 pmIf there are any such stores in The Netherlands, I haven't found them on Google. Because if that were an option, I'd definitely try that. As for the budget offers: Both the GW Instek and the Siglent look a lot snappier when compared to the Rigol side-by-side. That also makes sense considering the hardware inside. Even if the Siglent is not as fast as the scopes at University, all it has to do is for the basic things to not be annoying.Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on June 26, 2019, 10:22:43 amFor €285, I'd definitely consider it. Unfortunately, after shipping, handling fees and VAT for getting it into The Netherlands, I'd still be looking at €377 (Eleshop has it for €379 delivered).Quote from: EEVblog on June 26, 2019, 11:19:43 amMr. EEVblog, thank you for replying. I had not expected that. Consider me humbled.There are no real proper videos of the Rigol 2000 series, so I have no idea how responsive it is. From your comment, I am deducing that I should avoid it like the plague. I will.When I got the DS1054Z, I considered whether I could get used to its slowness (not so much its quirks, those I could live with), but I don't think I can. If it cost €250, then maybe. But a device costing €379 should at least not annoy me, no matter how cheap it is when compared to more expensive oscilloscopes. It's too much money for that, at least to me. If it is just fast enough not to be annoying, that is enough.Quote from: EEVblog on June 26, 2019, 11:34:55 amYes, that is what I am afraid of. For the money, it looks like really a very useful device. However, I'm concerned that already for one of the projects I have in mind (building aPRUDAQboard and then building a simple front-end for it with switches as the controls) it will already be at its limits. Then either the GW Instek or the Siglent looks like the better investment than the AD2.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 01:01:58 pm
content: Quote from: edigi on June 25, 2019, 11:44:44 amWhich scope are you looking at that has 1M point FFT? I did some searching around and even the keysight DSOX3000T series only has up to 64k points...It definitely is possible, as I have just successfully demonstrated a 1M 32bit hardware FFT on a Zynq 7010. The bottleneck is DRAM bandwidth and in my case I can get up to 70 FFTs per second. I think up to 16M points should be easily doable on a Zynq 7010 which most of these scopes use.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 01:11:02 pm
content: Quote from: OwO on June 26, 2019, 01:01:58 pmBoth the Siglent and the Instek discussed here claim 1Mpoint FFT.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 01:52:43 pm
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 26, 2019, 12:34:04 pmI very much disagree with Dave here. It is better to buy the best tool you can afford because it will offer a much better experience and ease of use. Sure you can 'make do' with lesser tools too but at some point that just holds you back from getting actual work done. In the end you want to complete a project and enjoy the path to completion as much as you can.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 01:59:43 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 26, 2019, 11:34:55 amI'd say it depends. I have a small bench (actually, just a workplace). I most of the time use AD2 and only when it's not enough I use better gear.I'd say it's worth at least loan it and give it a try. To me it's not a substitute for bigger gear, but a useful daily driver.One may say "I don't have money, my budget is limited, etc". I say forget about price, and just buy what will make you more productive. It may seem that +-1000euros is big money, but I say it's not. Time is more expensive. Also better tools improve experience and keep motivation doing stuff. It's also usually a one-time investment. But even if you need to upgrade your lab in the future it only means you are getting to the next level and it's just fine to buy some new equipment to achieve bigger goals.

author: OwO
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 02:09:41 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 26, 2019, 01:52:43 pmThat may be true in a workplace but not necessarily correct when your objective is learning.I develop test equipment for a living but have no test equipment in my lab other than a multimeter and some SDR receivers. I have no problems troubleshooting any boards, even very complex designs with FPGAs. I still see people with $10k worth of equipment that fail to do anything better. Troubleshooting is an art, and when you are spoiled by high end test equipment you will simply not know what to do when faced with a problem that no existing equipment is designed to test for. How do you differentially probe a 3GHz signal? A 5GHz oscilloscope with ex🅱ensive differential probes is not the answer

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 02:11:04 pm
content: Quote from: OwO on June 26, 2019, 02:09:41 pmI never said good tools are a replacement for a brain.Also when the objective is learning there is a real benefit of having good & trustworthy tools. Ofcourse there are always people who want to learn how to ty their shoe laces with one hand behind their back but IMHO that shouldn't be the standard.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 03:27:51 pm
content: I run a 1-man electronic design business and I'm close to retiring. I own the following scopes:Rigol MSO2072A, has all optionsKeysight MSO7104BKeysight MSOX4054A, I bought it calibrated with full DSOX4APPBNDL bundle installedRigol DS1054Z, came with all options except 300 MHz which I appliedThe 2 Keysights are big and beautiful and cost me around $7,000 US each, used from Keysight eBay; they are both great scopes but it's once every blue moon that I actually need a scope that can do more than the DS1054Z.I actually bought a Siglent SDS1202X-E when it first came out but mine had the compensation issue and, after a fight with Siglent who claimed it wasn't a bug, I (eventually) returned it for a full refund. That was the point at which I decided to buy the DS1054Z and, perhaps like you, I had this feeling that I was buying a junk low-end scope but I couldn't resist the $285 price and, boy was I wrong. Like I've said before, it does 99% of what I need and it would probably do 99.999999% of what you need.JFBI.PS. Anyone who wants to buy any of my scopes is welcome to make me an offer

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 03:37:53 pm
content: Just curious--if you already had the other scopes, why were you looking for a new, lower end one? (this from someone with more scopes in total than you...and another on the way)and how did you get the 300MHz option for the DS1054Z?

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 03:45:37 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on June 26, 2019, 03:37:53 pmI wanted a 'beater' scope that I could take out to client sites without worrying if it would be damaged or stolen. Now I have buyers remorse; remorse that I bought the expensive KeysightsOption DSCA on Riglol - it doesn't really do 300 MHz but it tries. I'm getting confused, of course that 300 MHz option is for the DS2072A. The 1054Z has the 100 MHz option and does about 135 MHz in real world tests.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 04:15:59 pm
content: I am a rank beginner hobbyist so take this for what it is worth. I went with the 1104E-X because of slightly better specs (2 ADC's) and the fact that Siglent is still actively fixing/improving the software. Some will say a scope should not be released until the bugs are worked out, but this is the low end scope market has changed and it is what it is. To ME the $150 ish extra cost of the Siglent over the Rigol was not enough to sway me. I may well buy another scope in the next 5-10 years, but over that time span the cost difference is minimal, to ME. There were just not enough of the GW Instek's visibly in use for me to really consider them.I love my Analog Discovery's, I bought the new model 2 years ago when I could not decide on a scope, the picked up one of the original versions on eBay for $50 because it was too cheap to pass up. The AD1 is 95% as good as the AD2, they only made a small power supply change to the hardware between versions, and the spiffy case

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 05:00:26 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 26, 2019, 11:34:55 amThis.I don't really get the rejection of the Rigol DS1054Z. Yes the vertical controls are slow but almost nothing else is. I don't believe it's a deal breaker, not if the alternative is to spend $150 more, which would get you a very nice multimeter or soldering iron instead.It seems to me that I spend more time turning measurements on/off and the DS1054Z has a handy set of buttons down the left side for that. The Siglent needs you to go through a whole series of knob twiddling operations to turn on measurements.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 05:06:53 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on June 26, 2019, 03:45:37 pmIn better tests it does close to 200Mhz.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 05:27:46 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 26, 2019, 05:06:53 pmWhat's a 'better' test, is it one that gives you the results you wanted?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 05:34:45 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on June 26, 2019, 05:27:46 pmA test's a test. Numbers don't lie.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 06:37:31 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 26, 2019, 05:00:26 pmI like that on the Rigols as well. The buttons at the left of the screen are quite handy for me (I have a DS4014).

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 07:14:50 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 26, 2019, 05:06:53 pmI only have one to test (mine) but I get rise times of 2.6 to 3.4ns and -3db points of 110-130MHz depending on vertical gain. 200MHz shows up and triggers (as does 400MHz!) but with way, way more than -3db attenuation. What test shows a -3db point anywhere near 200MHz?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 07:20:09 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on June 26, 2019, 07:14:50 pmThis one:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg1818215/#msg1818215

author: Dubbie
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 07:27:56 pm
content: One thing I’d like to add, personally, I wouldn’t worry about a built in AWG. I have owned two scopes with them built in. And I think I have used them the grand total of once. I way prefer my standalone AWG. Usually when I am injecting a signal somewhere, my scope is busy with other measurements and I don’t want to be flicking through menus etc adjusting things back and forth. Usually the amount you pay to add on an internal AWG would buy you a nice external one. This I think is vastly preferable.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 07:53:47 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on June 26, 2019, 07:14:50 pmThat perfectly agrees with my measurements.Quote from: Fungus on June 26, 2019, 07:20:09 pmPulse test is not relevant. Only real test is frequency sweep with siggen...DS1000Z has funny input filters that have slow rolloff, and super fast edge will inject enough high frequency content into that edge and make it look faster. Truth is, if Rigol made sharper filter with better rolloff closer to ideal, it would have better pulse response. And would have less aliasing artefacts...

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 08:23:36 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on June 26, 2019, 07:53:47 pmIndeed. Bandwidth based on the risetime is just an approximation under the assumption the filters have a certain roll-off.

author: RedFantom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 26, 2019, 09:13:28 pm
content: Quote from: OwO on June 26, 2019, 01:01:58 pmYes, I saw your thread and I am tempted to try it on my Pynq board. The list of cool projects is getting longer and longer...Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on June 26, 2019, 03:27:51 pmWell, if you can wait for me to finish my study and get a job first...Quote from: Old Printer on June 26, 2019, 04:15:59 pmThank you for voicing pretty much what I am thinking! Yes, there is a €150 difference between the two Siglent/GW Instek and the Rigol, but if one is a device I know I will regret spending my money on every time I use it and the other is one that also does the job just fine with a few quirks, then I'd really rather spend the additional money.Quote from: Old Printer on June 26, 2019, 04:15:59 pmBut if you had to choose between getting an Analog Discovery 2 now (plus maybe a hot air soldering station or something) and an oscilloscope in a couple of years, or getting an oscilloscope now, which would you choose? Of course we might have different requirements of it, but just in your situation?Quote from: Fungus on June 26, 2019, 05:00:26 pmIf it were just the controls, maybe. I'd really rather buy everything sequentially and get what I actually want to use than get multiple things at once and then not buy what I want.If I had had the opportunity to try out the Rigol before ordering it, I wouldn't have ordered it. Looking around on the internet, it seems to be a personal thing whether the speed of the Rigol is something to get used to or something to get frustrated by. I tried. When it was here, I really, really wanted to not be so annoyed by it. But that only made the disappointment worse, so I returned it.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:13:39 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on June 26, 2019, 01:11:02 pmUpdate speeds fall through the floor at longer FFT depths:Like most of these discussions is really depends what specific application the scope is being used for, some times an interactive display is desirable, other times maximum data regardless of processing time. Doing the FFT on a computer can end up faster in some cases.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:18:46 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 26, 2019, 11:27:26 amAnd why not, RedFantom has used better scopes than what he's considering here at Uni however like so many he's budget constrained and looking for bang for buck.Maybe you didn't have time to read the whole thread.Quote from: Someone on June 27, 2019, 01:13:39 amWhat's the point of offering a well out of date video that's nearly 18 months old ?Much has changed !

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:37:18 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 27, 2019, 01:18:46 amMuch may have changed, has the FFT calculation rate changed? Do suggest a more appropriate video if you know of one.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 02:04:45 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 27, 2019, 01:37:18 amSorry I don't.The latest FW for the the 4ch X-E's has just been out for a few weeks so most likely no one has put one up yet.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 02:24:54 am
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 26, 2019, 01:52:43 pmThe 1054Z (and it's predecessor the 1052E) has worked just fine for countless people, it is a cheap 4CH scope that does a LOT for the money.If you want a better "experience" pay double for the Keysight, sure, knock yourself out, it's my preferred daily driver.The Siglent or others can't match the Keysight if nice usability is your desire, so kinda a half-way house.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 02:37:40 am
content: Quote from: Old Printer on June 26, 2019, 04:15:59 pmThank you for voicing pretty much what I am thinking! Yes, there is a €150 difference between the two Siglent/GW Instek and the Rigol, but if one is a device I know I will regret spending my money on every time I use it and the other is one that also does the job just fine with a few quirks, then I'd really rather spend the additional money.Quote from: Old Printer on June 26, 2019, 04:15:59 pmBut if you had to choose between getting an Analog Discovery 2 now (plus maybe a hot air soldering station or something) and an oscilloscope in a couple of years, or getting an oscilloscope now, which would you choose? Of course we might have different requirements of it, but just in your situation?The 1104E-X was not quite out when I bought my AD2 and I really wanted something right then. Now that the Siglent is out and doing well I would definitely grab that scope, and I just did. I think it is worth $150 more than the 1054Z, Rigol's attention has gone elsewhere like to the MSO5000, but for $1000 and a lot of work to be done.. Troll ebay and eventually you will find a good deal on an AD1. Digilent sold them by the thousand for $99 to EE students and they must be just sitting in drawers waiting to be sold. The GW Instek just does not sell many units that show up where we can watch and talk to their owners

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 09:15:16 am
content: When I was younger, I made the mistake several times over of being talked into buying something I didn't need, like a warranty for a TV or an underseal treatment for a car. Perhaps this is a lesson everyone needs to learn the hard way but a few are able to leverage the experience of those who have trodden the same path before them. I wish I'd know when I was young that there's nothing as valuable as the benefit of experience.Save your money and buy the DS1054Z.Beware of brand xxx fanboys or salespeople telling you that brand xxx is best.If you still want to future-proof your first oscilloscope purchase; why not buythis baby from Keysighton eBay, you'll 'save' $167,356,000 /s

author: JxR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 09:30:13 am
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on June 27, 2019, 09:15:16 amWhy would he want to repurchase the same scope he already bought, didn't like, and returned? No reason to not respect a choice the OP has already made.For the OP, I have no recommendations to make for the models you mentioned since I haven't used them. Although, I would certainly recommend not to buy the same model again that you already know you don't want. My only recommendation would be to keep an eye on Keysight's official refurbished store on eBay, just in-case. Maybe something will pop up there that is close to your budget (since you already know you like their interface).

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 09:55:29 am
content: Hmm, it's like he test drove a Fusion hybrid but didn't like it because performance wasn't like his friend's Focus RS. Now he's shopping for a car and all he actuallyneedsis to get from A to B as economically as possible; He wants to be able to afford a Focus RS but can't.You're saying,QuoteWhat is wrong with suggesting that the solution was what he started with and that his idea that, by spending 50% more would make him 100% happy is false; it's a law of diminishing returns and all cheap scopes have limitations, even my $7,000 scopes have less memory than I think they should.It appears that a chap called Dave Jones agrees with me to a great extent.I actually own the DS1054Z and I use it a lot and I have ZERO buyer remorse now even though I did have (subjective) concerns pre-purchase.I have no association with any equipment manufacturer or their sales force.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 09:57:00 am
content: Quote from: JxR on June 27, 2019, 09:30:13 amIndeed. Talking about fanboys...Most of the other options have already been provided in this thread.

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 10:11:22 am
content: Scanning the thread reveals the comment (not by me)...Quote

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 10:12:56 am
content: I think there is not right or wrong answer. The op should buy whatever makes him happy. I think prosumer market is different from professional market. Professionals often just buy tools that let the job done. Hobbyist don't have a job, they just tinker around for own enjoyment. T&M equipment is just gadgets for them, like smartphones. This is called TEA.I myself used to have a Siglent, it was my first oscilloscope. I didn't like it, so returned it. I bought Micsig which I didn't like either in the beginning. I also considered GW Instek, but because it didn't have working intensity grade, I discarded it. The thing is, what I thought was important (like intensity grade) turned out to be useless, and vice versa. Now I wouldn't even care which one to buy, I'd get the job done with any of them. But two years ago I simply had different priorities and didn't have a clear vision of what features would be useful to me.So, I think it's not really that important what to buy. Just buy whatever makes you happy. If saving every penny on purchase makes you happy, then go for cheap or second hand. It's also fine to be a fanboy. People often imply it's bad, but it's not.

author: CiscERsang
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 10:21:18 am
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 24, 2019, 04:44:07 pmConsider any scope as a tool. It helps to see something that you are not capable to see. That's all, nothing more. It never helps you to replace BGA chip, or make alterations in firmware. It's not a Smart TV which is being used 24/7 by your girlfriend or family. So, better buy modern SMART TV, smarter and wider.Speaking seriously:Keysight 1204G is decent gear. True, it costs a fortune. (Our Prof. has one).Siglent 1104X-e or 1204X-e. We have some experience with this scope (it was bought for us). It's quite young model, so I think it has a potential in terms of FW impovement, at least and so forth.BR

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 10:28:36 am
content: Quote from: JxR on June 27, 2019, 09:30:13 amBecause:a) Rigolsareuseful tools, despite having slow vertical controls (which is something you can get used to).b) The Siglentisn'ta dream 'scope, he just hasn't owned one yet. Maybe if he buys a Siglent he'll immediately start finding things he doesn't like and be looking at that Keysight again.Quote from: exe on June 27, 2019, 10:12:56 amIt really happens!

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 10:31:05 am
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on June 27, 2019, 10:11:22 amWhich isn't true at all (which is what I wrote in a response to that). I have owned and used many different types of oscilloscopes over the past decades. The reason I mention GW-Instek regulary is because they have several models which are well worth considering when looking for a not so expensive oscilloscope.

author: RedFantom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 11:29:11 am
content: Quote from: Dubbie on June 26, 2019, 07:27:56 pmSorry for missing your reply earlier! It would indeed save quite some desk space, but the €250 option on the Keysight indeed does seem very steep. As the AWG can benefit from much the same hardware as the oscilloscope itself, you'd think it be cheaper than getting a separate AWG.I'll probably look to get one at a later point.Replying to every post in this discussion seems superfluous, so I will say this:Yes, an oscilloscope is a tool that should get the job done. But, I compare it to buying shoes. I buy my shoes on walking comfort as the first priority, but there is still a budget involved. Yes, I could place money first and buy shoes that are very cheap. But then every day when I walk with those shoes on I will regret my decision to put the money first, because my feet will be sore. Do I get from A to B? Sure. Is it a nice experience? No, it is not. This does not mean that my current shoes are 100% to my satisfaction. I think they could look better. There has to be a sacrifice in some department. Where to make the compromises, I think that's personal.That is why I returned the Rigol. Not because it couldn't get the job done. But because I knew that if I kept it I would regret it, at least for €379. If I can find one for €250 or less, that's a different consideration, but for anything over €350 it must be something that I do not mind using. That doesn't mean I think it was a bad scope or that others should not be satisfied with theirs. I can't and won't defend that decision any more than this.Quote from: Fungus on June 27, 2019, 10:28:36 amMaybe, yes. I wish I could try it out and determine that before buying it, so I'd know for sure. But unless someone here knows a shop in The Netherlands I can go to, I can't find one where I'd have that opportunity.The question I'm trying to answer for myself now is: Would the AD2 be enough? I'll owe you that answer until at least tomorrow, because now I must get back to studying :/ .

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 11:48:54 am
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 27, 2019, 11:29:11 amNo, because it doesn't have something every other scope has had for 50 years, a decent selection of vertical input ranges.That's for starters.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 11:54:59 am
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 27, 2019, 11:29:11 amThe AD2 isn't a mindblowing oscilloscope but it's a very useful tool for messing around with electronics and it has one of the best audio-frequency FFTs anywhere.The secret isn't in the hardware, it's in the software, which is awesome. I believe you can download it and look around without an AD2 attached to your PC.If you can get the educational discount they AD2 isverycheap for what you get in return. I believejust the A/D converter chipon the AD2 costs about $100.One would definitely keep you occupied while you save up for the Keysight.

author: DDunfield
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 12:44:33 pm
content: I've been reading through this thread, and wow ... still can't believe how almost ANY discussion on the merits of various scopes (or any TE) always seems to degenerate into pointless arguments and "fanboy" accusations ...My advice, work out what you actually need/want which will probably be at least to some extent different from anyone else's view, do some research, pick one one that looks good and go with it.Don't expect to make the best decision out of the gate, but you can make a good one. This won't be your last scope. Once you've had one for a while your view on what is good/bad may change.A few things to consider:NO scope will be ideal to you. I've been using TE for close to 50 years. I've used dozens of different scopes, have personally had more than a dozen different ones living in my own lab at various points, currently have about 1/2 dozen ponies in the stable, and I can tell you NONE of them are/were "perfect".The simple reason being that like any product (especially a complex one), they are a compromise. A "feature" that you just love will drive the next guy nuts. TE like anything else can't be all things to all people.re: AD2I don't have one, but it looks to be a great little jack-of-all-trades tool that is as Dave says, focused on education.Would I have it as my first scope? -- probably not.Would I like one to play with? -- absolutely.It could be a great second scope, but as my primary bench instrument ... call me old fashioned, but I like a physical scope with real knobs and switches and a separate display on my bench.I have a USB scope that lives in my laptop bag for times when I'm off-site and don't want to drag along a bench scope. It's great for what it does, but I almost never use it on the bench.A "virtual" scope needs a mouse, which means you need a place to put a mouse close to your DUT (not always as easy at you would think). It also needs screen real-estate, and more importantly needs "focus" on your screen to make adjustments. If it's the only thing you are using on the computer that's ok, but I am usually looking through data sheets, or at source code (what the ell am I doing to make it do THAT!), hunting some spec. down on the web or whatever ... the point is, having to mouse around, shift focus to the scope, then drag controls - which you have to look at as there's no tactile feedback, is no comparison to just plonking your pinky on a knob and adjusting it while focusing your attention on the display and probe position.For a first scope, I strongly recommend a "real" one.Re: DS1054ZIf you don't like it, you don't like it and shouldn't get it. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, but do consider this before sending the next contender back.If you really did "returned it the same day", they you probably didn't give it a fair evaluation.I've had a 1054Z for some time now. I picked it because I wanted 4 channels and deep memory, and since I'm (mostly) retired and don't anticipate generating a lot of revenue from it, yeah.. because it was the cheapest thing available that would do what I wanted and seemed decent.My first reactions were:1) Four channels and such deep memory is REALLY nice!2) I didn't like the combined vertical controls - but given that it was 4 channels in a small size, probably necessary.3) wow ... is this thing slow!But I have to say that after using it a bit, I've gotten quite comfortable with it and mostly don't notice the negatives anymore. That's not to say I wouldn't like it to have separate controls or have a faster responding UI, but I wouldn't say they slow me down or cause me anything more than very mild annoyance. It's not actually as slow as it seemed at first, it just stood out as my other scopes have no noticeable UI lag. It's pretty much my go-to scope these days (I *like* deep memory).I have no doubt that a Tek, Keysight, Lecroy, Siglent, GW etc... would all have things that stand out as negatives to you at first that would ultimately prove to be of less consequence than you think, don't discount any one of them because of first impressions. First impressions are often misleading.Dave

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 12:51:09 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 27, 2019, 11:48:54 amI'm not sure what you mean, but I don't have any general usability problems with ad2. I'd say the opposite, I can put different functions on different windows, and have all of them on one screen (I mostly use power supply, bode, and oscilloscope). I can do this with standalone equipment (power supply, func gen and oscilloscope), but I found controlling from my computer more convenient. That's why I use it, and not dedicated equipment that does just one function. Not to say typing, saving screenshots, doing measurements etc is more convenient from my laptop. I found "virtual bench" really useful.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:06:23 pm
content: Quote from: exe on June 27, 2019, 12:51:09 pmAll bench scopes have 1/2/5 sequences in all the ranges, like a dozen ranges total.So 1mV/Div, 2mV, 5mV, 10mV, 20mV, 50mV, 100mV, 200mV, 500mV, 1V, 2V, 5V, 10V/divHow many does the AD2 have?And what overloads can it handle?

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:08:55 pm
content: Quote from: exe on June 27, 2019, 12:51:09 pmYes, it's very useful and has some features regular bench scopes do not. But the Op asked if "would the AD2 be enough?", and when the AD2 doesn't even have the same basic input ranges as every other scope on the market, one ofthefundamental aspects of a scope, then the answer surely has to be no at some point in usability?

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:13:33 pm
content: A tektronix 2232, because it's analog but at the press of a button becomes a very nice DSO. And they're cheap now.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:22:24 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 27, 2019, 01:06:23 pmIt has: 100uV, 200uV, 500uV, 1mV, 2mV, 5mV, 10mV, 20mV, 50mV, 100mV, 200mV, 500mV, 1V, 2V, 5V.Or you can just type in any number you want, it seems it accepts any scale (may be it does combination of hw/sw scaling). Or use mouse wheel on right side to change vertical of active channel. Or use mouse wheel on the range selector.Concerning overload, I'm not sure what you mean. It accepts +-25V (don't measure mains with it). As for recovery from overload I dunno, never tested it.I'd say the most annoying thing for me is lack of AC coupling. The coupling jumper is on BNC adapter, but I don't use it because 1) I don't need it 2) I don't want to have common ground, I want differential input.If one wants, it's possible to play with AD2 without the unit itself. Software supports demo mode. Beware that some nice functions a bit hidden in the UI and context menus (it can do more than it appears at first glance). I'm fine with this as I think overall UI is good. Happy discovery.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:37:55 pm
content: Quote from: DDunfield on June 27, 2019, 12:44:33 pmSure, because the first thing you touch is the vertical position control.Apart from that though, what else is slow? Does the screen only update twice a second? Do the menus take forever to open? Does it take ages to respond when you press zoom?Answer: Nope.I'm really not sure why the vertical control is slow or why Rigol doesn't do anything about it. A lot of it is down to technique though. It helps if you twiddle the knob in small steps instead of doing prolonged turns.I made a thread about it, here:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-ds1054z-vertical-response-discussion-thread/msg1027863/#msg1027863(and (b) Is there genuinely not a single slow function on any other 'scope apart from the DS1054Z?)

author: JxR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:42:25 pm
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 27, 2019, 11:29:11 amA valid statement and reply. We do seem to have a Siglent distributor on this board that I may have noticed pops up from time to timeCould such a person provide a demo unit to help the OP make a more informed purchase decision?

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 01:55:50 pm
content: I recommend go to an industrial event (there are a few in NL too, like "electronics and applications", there are other) and touch equipment yourself. At least big vendors like rigol, tek, siglent, r&s, keysight are always present. Others (micsig, NI which own ad2, afaik) may be harder to find. In the worst case one can order equipment online and return if not needed. Or make a loan of demo unit.

author: DDunfield
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 02:06:41 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 27, 2019, 01:37:55 pmWhich is exactly my point- the "slow UI" is a first impression because the vertical control lags, and this is one of the most frequently used functions and doesn't lag on most other scopes. Once you grow accustomed to it, it's not a serious issue (I rarely even notice it now), but one that at first seem pretty dramatic which makes it seem worse than it actually is.Quote from: Fungus on June 27, 2019, 01:37:55 pmI've used many scopes where certain elements in the UI were noticeably slow to respond. But I've seen few in which the vertical control lags which makes the 1054Z stand out (my UT-81B does as well, but you expect that from a low-end scopemeter where the VC is buttons). I think it stems from analog scopes where the vertical controls were "instant" and most DSO makers have tried hard to emulate that "feel", but it's clearly one area where Rigol cost-reduced. I don't think that was in itself a terrible decision, but it does sour the first impression if you are not expecting it.Dave

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 02:28:46 pm
content: Quote from: DDunfield on June 27, 2019, 02:06:41 pmYep. Sometimes I touch scopes with really fast vertical (including an older 2-channel Rigol the other day) and I think "Ohh, that's nice!" but in use at home I really don't notice it. My brain has tuned it out.I really don't know why it's slow, the screen is going at a high frame rate so why can't they update the vertical offset at the same speed? Beats me.After living with one though, I wouln't pay $150 to fix it. It's a complete no-brainer to spend that money on something else instead unless you're rich and/or already have everything else. In either case the Siglent isn't a major upgrade though, it's still a bargain basement 'scope, only one small step up from the Rigol in the scheme of things.If FFT was critical then yes, I'd want something better than a DS1054Z. I wouldn't take a dealer's word for anything though, I'd want to see it for myself.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 02:57:32 pm
content: Wow, 4 pages...Dont buy one. Your university has a lab, it is much better than whatever you buy now.I'm quite sure your university has an self made student organization, lab, or anything like that, that will give you access not only to a scope, but people with similar interest and a lot more tools. Join it.Or ask a professor, to give you a project and tools. This has enormous benefits.Where you are going to work, it will have one, which will be better than whatever you buy now. And if they dont, and you plan to do some boring job which doesnt involve having an oscilloscope, than you will be able to afford one, which will be better, than whatever you buy now.

author: apblog
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 02:58:36 pm
content: I just wanted to add in my two cents.I have owned Siglent gear and have never had a good experience with it. That's all I'm going to say.As for GW-Instek, one of their scopes is supposed to have an excellent FFT. So good that I've considered buying it just to supplement my Keysight 3000T. I think the GWI I'm referring to is about $2000 though.I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but you can trade sampling rate for bit-depth. So with an appropriately capable scope, you can get more than 8 bits and thus better dynamic range on your FFT.For less than $500, it's going to be impossible to get something that will be an excellent piece of gear.The Siglent seems to be the best low-end choice right now, so get one, learn it's limitations and maybe upgrade in a few years if you feel you need to.My first digital scope was a super-cheesy Rigol from about 2005. 10K points of memory. Yes, that's K. Unusable FFT. No decodes of any kind. Bugs everywhere.But that scope literally changed my professional life, despite it's limitations. Just the ability to single-shot and freeze a waveform was a massive game-changer for me.Good luck.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 03:01:29 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 27, 2019, 02:57:32 pmSure, but there's nothing like being able to get out of bed in the middle of the night and do a quick test while still in your underwear.

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 03:26:28 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 27, 2019, 03:01:29 pmGetoutof bed ?!

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 04:18:00 pm
content: Years ago (probably 40 or more), I was an apprentice with the UK's Post Office Telecommunications (now BT). There was a guy (john I think) who was the sole worker in a remote mini-exchange way out on the moors and the guys from the main exchange would call John up around 8 am and ask if all was well at his facility, he would always answer the call - sort of proving that he was at work I guess.Then John died unexpectedly and afterwards they discovered that his work phone had an extension that ran a mile to his bedside table!

author: JxR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 04:28:19 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on June 27, 2019, 02:57:32 pmI think there is quite alot of good advice here, except this:Quote from: NANDBlog on June 27, 2019, 02:57:32 pmYes, recognize as a young student you may not have the budget to buy the tools your school has on campus. That doesn't mean that an entry level tool would still not be invaluable to your learning experience. Immerse yourself in your education. Do your school projects, assist in university reasearch, etc....But also work on your own projects, fail, fail again, learn, and grow.Having your own tools that you have access to whenever you want is invaluable. I'm also currently a university student, but I'm like 40 years old now, own a home, have a wife whose salary can make ends meet, and I'm also a veteran (so I quite literally get paid to goto school by my government). So I'm lucky to have a much larger budget to work with.Unlike you, my school provides me complete shit tools that I only have access to in a particular classes lab. I can access better tools in a research lab, but I can't use them for any personal projects.When I worked in IT for 20 odd years, the absolute best decision I made was to build my own smallish server farm. I did IT all day at work, but also did IT all night at home. I immersed myself in learning and improving myself. My co-workers thought I was nuts, but eventually I started to get promotion after promotion while many of them stayed in their original positions.Don't be discouraged if you can't afford the tools you use at university. What you can afford now can always later be upgraded when you start working. Buy the tools you can afford to help yourself grow now...don't wait. Immerse yourself in your learning. Also make sure your having fun!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 04:33:46 pm
content: Good news: I just found out I qualify for academic pricing on Analog Discovery!Bad news: The old "$99" deal no longer applies, now it's more like "35% off".By the time I've paid $50 Fedex shipping (the only shipping option) plus unknown import fees it's going to beat least$275 for just an AD2 + BNC adapter.Not happening.(I assume it's also not going to happen for the OP in this thread so any further discussion of AD2 is moot)

author: tv84
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 04:40:08 pm
content: I must confess, you're all almost selling me an AD2 ! No kidding.I think it's time to start posting in TEA...

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 04:56:19 pm
content: Hello,Gandalf_Sr wrote: "If you still want to future-proof your first oscilloscope purchase; why not buy this baby (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Premium-Used-MSOV334A-Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscope-33-GHz-80-40-GSA-S-/183818300949?hash=item2acc6cae15) from Keysight on eBay, you'll 'save' $167,356,000 /s"No no don't buy this scope. This is no every day scope.It has no BNC and no 1MΩ input.Best regardsegonotto

author: JxR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 05:03:17 pm
content: Quote from: egonotto on June 27, 2019, 04:56:19 pmI have to agree. Don't buy the 6 figure scope!

author: BillB
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 05:10:47 pm
content: Quote from: egonotto on June 27, 2019, 04:56:19 pmGiven that, I'm thinking of talking them down with an offer of $165,000...

author: RedFantom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 06:11:53 pm
content: Quote from: DDunfield on June 27, 2019, 12:44:33 pmThat is at least partially true. I sat down with it for about an hour, but I did not dare use it too much to prevent me from returning it after I was initially disappointed. Still, for €379, I won't be getting the Rigol again.Quote from: NANDBlog on June 27, 2019, 02:57:32 pmYes, my university has a lab. And the student association has workshops in the lab. But honestly, my projects go beyond simply soldering pins to a microcontroller and making LEDs blink.The university lab (with the aforementioned DSOX3014Ts) is only accessible during opening hours (so no weekends), and I'd be kicked out whenever it is required for a course. On top of that, there are no probes, pliers, clippers or other required material, because that only gets handed out whenever you follow a course that requires using the lab, so I'd have to bring all of my own stuff every time (and the soldering irons are terrible because everyone seems to think that you need 500°C (932°F) to solder). All in all, it is not impossible, but enough of a hindrance to want my own stuff.Quote from: JxR on June 27, 2019, 04:28:19 pmThat I certainly recognize: Only very few of my fellow students are interested in doing electronics projects as a hobby, and the few I know that do so have declared me crazy for wanting to get an oscilloscope...Quote from: Fungus on June 27, 2019, 04:33:46 pmI'd be ordering it through NI, then I get free shipping. But it sums to €250 including VAT. Do you think that's too much for the AD2? That would be including the BNC adapter board and the probes.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 06:52:43 pm
content: Quote from: BillB on June 27, 2019, 05:10:47 pmTry lowballing them first. I bet they'd accept $150,000. The $17,000 saving will buy you a matching probe for it.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 07:04:19 pm
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 27, 2019, 06:11:53 pmIt's a bit too much formebut I already have lots of toys, it wouldn't really do anything I can't already do.Viewed purely as a piece of test gear it's right on the limit of value. It's not just test gear though, it's a whole little electronics world somewhere between test gear and Arduino.nb. The secret to the AD2 is 90% in the PC software. If you're interested in one then download it and poke around. Imagine what you could do with it.

author: exe
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 08:07:05 pm
content: Quote from: RedFantom link=topic=195405.msg2513289#msg2513289It's a good price considering it's not just a scope, it's a multi-function tool with good software support. In fact, I'd make it a first purchase, not a "big" scope. It has many features including digital io (not just logic analyzer, but also patter generator), rudimentary-but-working bipolar power supply, two channel function generator, and combination of these tools (e.g., bode plot). If you invest all your money into a single oscilloscope then you'll have limited capabilities. May be you don't need these capabilities, I don't know what you need. But I myself use all these features. Not to say oscilloscopes don't come with differential input (which is, btw, not available with bnc board).PS 250euro may seem a lot, but for me it's just a few purchases from a parts supplier. Tools cost money, unfortunately.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 08:07:38 pm
content: Quote from: JxR on June 27, 2019, 01:42:25 pmNope, too far away however if RedFantom was to give some better indication of his location there could be a member close by with a SDS1104X-E for him to hook up with and have a try with one.Or find the Netherlands dealers that might have a demo or a unit in the shop that they can try before buy:https://www.siglenteu.com/how-to-buy/

author: Gandalf_Sr
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 08:09:08 pm
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 27, 2019, 06:11:53 pmWAIT!!! Listen to some good advice...Quote from: EEVBlogThat's not some fanboy telling you that, it's Dave Jones, the guy who runs EEVBlog.I truly believe that the DS1054Z (which now comes with all the upgrades for free) will be the best fit for your needs as a starter scope. I am saying this because I believe it to be true and that statement is reinforced by the fact that I happen to own one.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 08:31:05 pm
content: Quote from: Gandalf_Sr on June 27, 2019, 08:09:08 pmNo mV range? Build a voltage divider. It's only two resistors...Edit: Well, maybe two resistors and an op-amp in this case. It has to be high impedance.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 09:35:08 pm
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 25, 2019, 02:18:39 pmI have never worked with the DSOX3014T myself but it is likely touch screen operation has been added to the user interface afterwards. The Micsig however has been designed for touchscreen operation from the start so the interface is probably much better compared to your Keysight experience. Nowadays Micsig also has a version with knobs for those who can't do without. I own a MicSig TO1104 myself and it is not a bad oscilloscope. If you have the chance be sure to take it for a spin.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 10:03:35 pm
content: Quote from: nctnico on June 27, 2019, 09:35:08 pmMicsig is also easy to carry around and can run from batteries...Very nice actually..damn..Must not buy another scope...Must not buy another scope...Must not buy another scope...Must not buy another scope...

author: GeorgeOfTheJungle
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 10:07:28 pm
content: I like the micsig !!

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 10:13:01 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 27, 2019, 04:33:46 pmThe $99 special EDU has been gone for years, ever since the AD2 in the fancy green case was released. Only the black case AD1's were sold for $99, though electronically the are very similar. I bought an AD2 for $279 from Mouser plus shipping in 2017, additional $25 for the BNC adapter and added third party probes. For what I have been able to learn on it I thought it was a very good investment, for me. Not everybody operates on the same budget. Now that I have my 1104X-E I might sell my AD2 as I still have an AD1 for all of the digital tools it has.

author: thm_w
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 10:50:18 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 27, 2019, 04:33:46 pmYeah, too much IMO.There is a AD1 on ebay w/ BNC for $120 OBO. You can see the sold prices are anywhere from $70-150 for AD1/AD2.

author: boffin
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 27, 2019, 11:14:01 pm
content: I'd happily post you my AD1 if Dave were to just pick me for one of his scope giveaways.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 12:37:21 am
content: Quote from: exe on June 27, 2019, 01:22:24 pmDifferential input is the AD(2) inputs only real feature. To make things less confusing it only has two gain settings:https://reference.digilentinc.com/reference/instrumentation/analog-discovery-2/reference-manualThey have full scale ranges of -28.6V to 30V and -2.6V to 2.7V, just two gains for the front end. It can use the higher bit width of the ADC to add some more gain, but at the cost of resolution.A scope on the flip side might have a dozen or more gain settings for the front end, and adjustable "vernier" reference voltages to adjust the vertical scale in much finer steps. Also with a higher sample rate that can be accumulated or filtered down to improve resolution, and from that a "regular" scope will actually have more resolution than the AD(2) in some settings. But just on the full scale range you would be looking at something such as -40V to 40V down to -4mV to 4mV entirely from the analog front end.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 02:31:10 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 28, 2019, 12:37:21 amI'm about to do a quick video on the advantages of this in next few days.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 02:31:35 am
content: Quote from: Someone on June 28, 2019, 12:37:21 amTo discus the Analog Discovery as if it were only a scope makes no sense, It is a package of electronic test gear includingTwo-channel arbitrary function generator (±5V, 14-bit, 100MS/s, 12MHz+ bandwidth - with the Analog Discovery BNC Adapter Board)Stereo audio amplifier to drive external headphones or speakers with replicated AWG signals16-channel digital logic analyzer (3.3V CMOS and 1.8V or 5V tolerant, 100MS/s)Digital Bus Analyzers (SPI, I²C, UART, Parallel)16-channel pattern generator (3.3V CMOS, 100MS/s)16-channel virtual digital I/O including buttons, switches, and LEDs – perfect for logic training applicationsTwo input/output digital trigger signals for linking multiple instruments (3.3V CMOS)Single channel voltmeter (AC, DC, ±25V)Network Analyzer – Bode, Nyquist, Nichols transfer diagrams of a circuit. Range: 1Hz to 10MHzSpectrum Analyzer – power spectrum and spectral measurements (noise floor, SFDR, SNR, THD, etc.)Data Logger - Exportable data and plot functionalityImpedance Analyzer - Capacitive and Inductive ElementsProtocol Analyzer - SPI, I2C, UART, and CANTwo programmable power supplies (0…+5V , 0…-5V).Anyone who bought it as a scope alone would surely be missing it's purpose.

author: Someone
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 04:15:28 am
content: Quote from: Old Printer on June 28, 2019, 02:31:35 amExcept that a scope can hit the majority of those features too, they have significant overlap (annotated above). You're getting into "fan" territory by pushing out grandiose lists as justification when there are no comparative measures. Some people love PC based scopes and rightly so, they have specific advantages for many applications. But it comes down to the applications, not lists of irrelevant specs.

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 04:46:54 am
content: Quote from: Old Printer on June 28, 2019, 02:31:35 amSure, but the OP asked a very specific question of whether it would be suitable down the track, and when it doesn't even have a basic vertical front end that all other scopes do, the answer to that has to be no.Buying an AD2 now and then a scope later as needed is a perfectly valid plan. The OP is in an education environment, and seems to desire PC based scope features, so seems a reasonable choice for now.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 05:20:15 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 28, 2019, 04:46:54 amAfter five pages the waters do get a bit muddy, but the OP did have the AD on his original post list. I am a "fan" of the AD as a learning tool, not so much as a scope or PC based scope (PicoScope), as it certainly has its limits. A few pages back I told him had the Siglent been available with it's current firmware when I bought my AD2 I would have bought the 1104E-X and waited for a good price on a used AD1. I think the AD1 has enough useful tools that make it worth owning if available in the $75-125 range, but that is me and His needs may be different.

author: Old Printer
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 28, 2019, 05:31:11 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on June 28, 2019, 02:31:10 amLooking forward to this Dave, with both the AD & a real scopeat hand I will be able at appreciate a guided tour through the differences

author: RedFantom
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2019, 08:52:51 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 27, 2019, 07:04:19 pmThank you for pointing that out to me! Yesterday afternoon, I took some time to sit down with the software and play around with the example devices. This made me realize that while I liked being able to post-process the data of the MyDAQ, that would be something I would hardly ever do for my own projects (this was for making plots for the report on an assignment).Then I considered how the two devices would differ in how I would use them. How they would sit on my bench and hook up to my projects. How I would feel about getting it out, connecting everything.Finally, I decided that for an oscilloscope I would rather have a device with physical buttons, that would sit next to my soldering iron and be close to my other stuff. The Analog Discovery would still be a great tool for other purposes, but I set out to buy an oscilloscope. So I ordered the Siglent SDS1104X-E yesterday (because of the built-in decoding and because I could simply find more material on it), and it arrived today. I am very happy with it. It is very responsive, the FFT looks great and I find the interface more intuitive.Quote from: EEVblog on June 28, 2019, 04:46:54 amThis is also a thing I very much took into account. I already have made a boost converter that goes (slightly) over 60V. I would not feel comfortable measuring such things with the Analog Discovery, even with a 10x probe.A big thank you to everyone who gave their opinion! This topic has really helped me make the decision, and that scope is looking great.To anyone who still wants to sell their AD: I think I'll figure out how all these knobs and buttons work first, but it still looks like a cool device.PS: I did not want to post yesterday in case I would be disappointed.

author: JxR
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 29, 2019, 09:54:25 pm
content: Nice! Glad you like it, and I hope it serves you well.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 29, 2019, 09:57:12 pm
content: I think you made excellent choice. Have fun!!

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 30, 2019, 12:49:02 am
content: @RedFantomCheck your unit has the latest firmware installed that has only been out for a few weeks, version: 6.1.33Release notes:https://www.siglenteu.com/download/7882/Firmware download link:https://www.siglenteu.com/download/7879/

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2019, 01:30:52 am
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 29, 2019, 08:52:51 pm

author: bson
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: June 30, 2019, 06:25:36 pm
content: Quote from: RedFantom on June 24, 2019, 05:29:31 pmHigh sample rate at 8 bits, convert to a short floating point format (whatever is vector friendly), low-pass filter, M:N decimate, then FFT the decimated record.The low-pass filter is an averaging function that improves SNR by the inverse square root of the number of samples.