Cheap eInk/ePaper ~3" panels? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / projects

author: lpc32
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 24, 2014, 08:50:20 pm
content: Do cheap (<$10) eInk or similar panels exist anywhere, particularly around 3", singular units?The only thing I found is Pervasive Displays' 2.7" for around $25 (or $40 with a board).

author: TheRuler8510
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2014, 12:12:46 am
content: Quote from: lpc32 on April 24, 2014, 08:50:20 pmI would like to find some 4 digit displays myself. The only thing I can find is 3 or 6 digit types on digikey, and they are small.

author: lpc32
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2014, 02:00:20 pm
content: What?

author: mark03
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2014, 04:01:46 pm
content: I looked into this some time ago and AFAICT the nicer panels used in, e.g., e-readers like the Kindles require driving techniques which the e-ink companies prefer to keep secret / NDAed. That is probably one reason why we've had good e-ink displays for going on a decade now and still no availability in the hobby market. (I know you specified 3" but I imagine similar logic applies.)I concluded that the cheapest route to using e-ink in a project would be to buy an old e-reader and hack it. Far cheaper than attempting to acquire the component itself. A crazy world we live in.

author: TheRuler8510
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2014, 04:03:33 pm
content: Quote from: lpc32 on April 25, 2014, 02:00:20 pmThat was a non-answer. I was commenting that I wanted to find a 4 digit version of this:http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SC004221/1272-1001-ND/3740383

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2014, 04:07:35 pm
content: I find it hard to think up a use case for those segmented displays ... the power needed for a reflective or transflective segmented LCD is so minimal to begin with.

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2014, 06:57:35 pm
content: Quote from: mark03 on April 25, 2014, 04:01:46 pmWhy would they limit their market space? (not really a question for you, just in general) Maybe if they were easily obtained the consumer products wouldn't be as interesting. But if I made e-ink displays I'd want to sell as many as possible. So I'd expect that it's not the e-ink companies that don't want to sell more of their products.QuoteI agree and reached the same conclusion.QuoteIt's not so crazy as there are reasons why technology doesn't just break out onto the scene. Some are too disruptive. It's only a matter of time until e-ink's everywhere. There are some vids showing them drilling a hole through the display and the display still functions. Other abuses too like bending, heating, melting, burning.On digikey there are e-ink parts (not cheap) that are designed for use as price tags in stores. But the stores probably get them for much less. I haven't seen any yet but I may have missed them.

author: lpc32
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 25, 2014, 10:31:01 pm
content: I don't know what's eInk's current policy, but some of their datasheets might be accessible without NDA if you're registeredhere. Docs for PVI panels, before eInk bought them, are also online, likethis one. And these guys were working on some sort of public devkit:http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/rocktheinkBut there's more than eInk. Besides Pervasive Displays, which is the only one I found with small panels, there might also be LG (e.g.,5" with decent 200dpi). AUO used to make them too, including some small sizes, but maybe they quit.TheRuler: Oh, eInk digit display. Didn't think of these.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 25, 2014, 11:42:40 pm
content: Quote from: GiskardReventlov on April 25, 2014, 06:57:35 pmI dunno about eInk being everywhere some day. It seems to me to be a very niche product considering the extreme drawbacks they have... in some applications they are absolutely perfect (eReaders, for example), but I don't see too many applications where update rate is a non-issue.I wanted to use one in a speedometer - I figured the update rate might be adequate, but when you see it compared to LCD, it's just terrible. The screens don't look pretty either... light gray and dark gray. Not to mention there are few standard panels out there - you have to buy a metric shitload of units to get anything other then their (very very few) standard parts.

author: calexanian
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 12:38:13 am
content: Market lockup... The e readers have exclusives. Otherwise you pay HUGE!!!!! royalties and lic fees from the panel manufacturers.

author: Marco
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 02:04:20 pm
content: Patents driving innovation at work.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 02:18:21 pm
content: With anything like this, they will go after the highest volume markets first to maximise profit. Once those markets are fully exploited, it trickles down to lower-profit areas.E-ink has the potential to replace small monochrome LCDs in a wide range of applications, but LCD has been around so long that any new tech has to either match LCD on price of panels and drive silicon, or offer significant enough benefits to justify the additional cost.I'm sure we'll eventually see it in toys, but it will take time.

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 09:38:36 pm
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 25, 2014, 11:42:40 pm"see it" what is "it"? What part? What refresh rate is needed for a speedo? I saw a video of a video game running on a simpletouch. They tweaked some graphics parameters.The kindle paper white, there's a nook simpletouch also, very white displays.They will replace road signs in lots of places because they are vandal proof. Bullet holes? No problem. Rocks? No problem. LED or LCD not practical for wide use for road signs only for special conditions/cases now.

author: lpc32
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 10:26:10 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 26, 2014, 09:33:32 pmThe Sharp non-mirror 2.7" PNLC variant looks interesting but seems even more expensive than EPD (though higher DPI).I'm not after low power, but good visibility also in sunlight. EPD also has a novelty factor to it, but that's secondary.

author: GiskardReventlov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 26, 2014, 11:00:46 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 26, 2014, 02:18:21 pmI agree but there must be something else at play because I wouldn't want to limit my sales if I were an EPD maker. Sure I'll sell into the high-vol consumer market but I'll also sell to any other market too. Maybe it comes down to distribution. The high-volume market orders 50,000 in one shipment. Where as digikey, farnell, etc. order 50 at a time. Makes more work for the EPD maker to deal with small orders.QuoteIt will take time. Designers have to get used to the capabilities because they are unique and will be used in places where no display tech was ever used or considered before just due to impracticality.

author: Corporate666
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 27, 2014, 05:10:05 am
content: Quote from: GiskardReventlov on April 26, 2014, 09:38:36 pm"it" is update rate, obviously. And eInk panels are inadequate next to traditional LCD in many applications. They have some great advantages, especially bright sunlight readability, thickness, durability and price, but they simply do not have a sufficient refresh rate to provide anywhere close to the user experience that LCD does. Terms like "very white display" are subjective. The eInk panels I purchased were not as white or as black as a good LCD display. I also have a Kindle Paperwhite and it's not as white as a half decent LCD either.They have their place but they won't be replacing LCD anytime ever. In signs? Perhaps in specialized applications - most road signs don't need to be dynamic, though.

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2014, 09:51:16 am
content: Quote from: Corporate666 on April 27, 2014, 05:10:05 amNot to mention zero power draw when static, which will open up applications where power is limited to solar or harvested energy.One downside of this is that it may not be obvious if the driver has died, so we are unlikely to see them in stuff like DMMs where a "stuck" display is a safety issue - this is one advantage of the Sharp memory LCDs, in that they do need a small amount of power to stay visible, so a power failure is obvious.There are huge numbers of LCD applications where update rate is not an issue - think of all the little LCDs used for status/configuration interfaces on equipment.The use of glass & all its processing costs places a limit on how cheap LCDs can be, but as printed plastic & roll-to-roll manufacturing could make e-ink extremely cheap in the longer term.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 27, 2014, 11:19:13 am
content: Indeed there does seem to be rather less information and proliferation of eInk displays than expected... maybe it's due to the usual bureaucracy/patents. Trying to find information "officially" about LCDs is not easy either.Quote from: lpc32 on April 25, 2014, 10:31:01 pmIt's one of those bloody sites that need you to registerandupload your own datasheets - which I have plenty of and could easily find more -andthey need to approve them - before you can download!But... after Googling "inurl:panelook.com filetype:pdf" and staring at the URLs, maybe all we need is some time and luck...

author: mark03
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 06:10:42 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on April 26, 2014, 09:33:32 pmDoes anyone know if Sharp were able to get these into any commercial products? At Mouser (the only distributor I can find), anything larger than 1.5" diagonal is either end-of-life, backordered half a year, or non-stocked. I wonder if they just couldn't find buyers for macroscopic panel sizes and decided to focus on postage stamps?Looks really interesting, though.

author: janoc
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 09:44:34 pm
content: Quote from: mark03 on April 28, 2014, 06:10:42 pmMaybe those are meant for gadgets like watches and similar? The low power consumption would make it ideal.

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 10:27:49 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on April 27, 2014, 11:19:13 amPanellook is very easy to bypass download form from.1. Right click on file name to download2. Paste "&act=down_4" at end of URL on page which prompts for P-coins.3. ...e.x.http://www.panelook.com/down.php?ac=pdf&id=2f4b6f496c4468693562686e416349366a77&act=down_4I had a friend in China send me two DVDs full of the files you can buy from manufacturers - includes loads of LCD datasheets, etc. I'll see if there are some E-ink ones in there.

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 10:49:42 pm
content: Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on April 27, 2014, 09:51:16 amSeems that it is already cheap enough to make custom displays for advertisement purposes. A while ago i came across several such displays, usually they are placed in front of cigarette trays in shops, gas stations, etc. I got one, pictures attached. If you are interrested i can send it your way for further dissecting itUnfortunately it's not a real graphic display. The segments can only display a few different texts, through clever arrangement/segmentation.Greetings,Chris

author: mikeselectricstuff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 28, 2014, 10:54:28 pm
content: Quote from: mark03 on April 28, 2014, 06:10:42 pmPebble watch is the only one I'm aware of.These are awesome displays, and I'm surprised they've not become more popularThe 400x240 is superb - would be ideal for a DMM, though update speed may be slighly sluggish - one issue is you need to send a whole line at a time, and SPI clock rate is a bit limited, I suspect by the resistance of the ITO/TFT stuff.

author: Gribo
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 12:55:35 pm
content: Pervasive displays offers a prototyping option, for small runshttp://www.pervasivedisplays.com/shuttleI don't know the cost for low quantities.

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 02:05:54 pm
content: I rather like the battery compartment on the back, just load a half dozen or so coin cell batteries in parallel.

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 02:34:34 pm
content: That advertisement display above is from a company called MotionDisplay. Seems thhey specialize on that kind of stuff.eInk/e-paper displays would be really nice to have available, "standard" stuff like 16x2 text displays or 128x64 graphic displays. It's really annoying that they are very hard to come by for hobbyists.Greetings,ChrisEDIT: The thing i have is still available, if someone wants to play around with it. It really can't do anything more than displaying a feew fixed texts.

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 08:51:06 pm
content: Quote from: mamalala on April 28, 2014, 10:49:42 pmThat seems unusual, judging from the number of connections the FPC has. Perhaps it is a true graphic display but the COB micocontroller is programmed with the images they want it to display? Or have you confirmed that with e.g. a scope on those data lines? Especially for something so cost-optimised, it seems odd the display would have so many connections to it.On the other hand, even if the segments were in fixed patterns, looking atthis diagramI wonder if you could hack your own display by sandwiching it between the glass layers of an existing LCD and using those electrodes to drive it...

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: April 29, 2014, 08:55:15 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on April 29, 2014, 08:51:06 pmYea, initially i thought it was a "regular" display that could be hacked. But if you take a close look under a magnifying glass, you can see that it has only fixed text. Since it displays different words in the same position, the letters are cut into segments where the different ones overlap, and these need to be controlled separately.If you want i can send it your way, just send me a PM and tell me where to send it toGreetings,ChrisETA: It display three different textx: "PREMIUMQUALITÄT", "FAIRER PREIS" and "JETZT PROBIEREN!" It displays one string black-on-white, then white-on-black, then repeats that with the next ones, and once it has done all three, it blinks the display fully white, then fully black, and then starts over again. So you have these three strings superimposed onto each other, which naturally causes a lot of segmentation in the letters.

author: miguelvp
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 03:46:44 pm
content: Resurrecting this thread.http://www.pervasivedisplays.com/homeSome don't have public prices but some do like this 2.7" 264x176 various sources and controller boards:http://www.pervasivedisplays.com/products/27Just the screen is $25 at digikey and £16.63 (+£15.00 shipping???) at densipaper.The big 10.2" 1024 x 1280 (160 dpi) at the end of this list goes for around $300 at digikey with controller $275 without it. there is alos a smaller controller for this one for just $21http://www.pervasivedisplays.com/products/panelsEdit: I'm an idiot and thought I did look at the whole thread, but in any event, the previous poster didn't point out the prices nor know where to find the pricing information for low runs.

author: lpc32
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: September 17, 2014, 08:44:32 pm
content: Still expensive. Maybe next year.