Seek Compact XR lemon or not? - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: eecs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2019, 05:24:02 am
content: I recently purchased a Seek Compact XR, and I am trying to work out if the unit I received is defective or typical (or both!).At room temperature (18°C according to half a dozen ordinary thermometers that all agree to within half a degree) the Seek XR initially reads about 18°C, and then drops over the next few minutes to stabilise at a reading of 12°C after about five minutes. Error -6°C.Looking at a pot of boiling water, and using the Seek software's ability to pick the hot spot, I measure 95°C. Error -5°C.Looking at the matte plastic side of a MOSFET that is at 183°C (easy to test as this is the eutectic temperature of 63/37 lead/tin solder) the Seek XR reads 169°C. Error -14°C.These measurements seem to be repeatable to ±1°C, so if this is about the level of accuracy to be expected then I can work around it.Apart from the accuracy, I am concerned about the lack of uniformity in the image. Here is an image of a uniform (about 16°C) floor:I was expecting to see some noise over the entire image, but there is more vertical banding than I expected from other people's images I had seen, and I certainly was not expecting the see the areas of higher readings near the top, bottom and left. (I tried moving the camera around, but the image stayed the same regardless of where I aimed the camera on the floor.)Given that this image only covers a 1°C temperature difference (as perceived by the Seek XR), I tried including my foot in the picture (different day, floor 17°C):Again, apart from my foot, these entire images should be a uniform 17°C. I moved the camera, not my foot.My question for people who have (or have had) Seek Compact cameras: Are these images typical, or is my camera producing worse results than are typical for a Seek Compact?Thanks for any feedback!

author: Sensei
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: October 09, 2019, 06:08:52 am
content: In this month i used 2 pieces of SEEK PRO FF. One was gived to my by my friend, it was buyed by him in 08-2018. I bought the second one two weeks ago. Both cameras work bad, at 10 minutes after turn on the thermal gradient like on your pictures appears. Finally I I gave back SEEK camera, and I considering to buy Thermal Expert Q1. Better resolution, better app on android and SDK for windows, price like SEEK PRO FF.

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 09, 2019, 01:44:08 pm
content: It is with regret that I turned my back on SEEK products after owning one of their phone dongles. I say “regret” because I had high hopes for that companies products. The creators of that company are very capable persons with much history in the thermal imaging industry.I personally consider the SEEK Thermal imaging cameras and cores to be very variable on performance and little more than ‘entry’ level technology no matter which model you buy. Provided you are happy with the performance they provide, no problem. If you want better imaging performance then the Thermal Expert and Therm App offer such, but at a higher cost and still with some performance limitations that should be well understood before purchase.Fraser

author: eecs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2019, 08:00:58 am
content: Quote from: Sensei on October 09, 2019, 06:08:52 amYikes, if that was aimed at a uniform surface it is far worse than what I am seeing! You have a range of 9°C; I am only seeing the gradient covering a range of about 3°C.Quote from: Fraser on October 09, 2019, 01:44:08 pmMy main application is PCB analysis, for which I need temperatures up to at least 175°C. I also want to keep the camera at least 10cm away from the boards, and at that distance the 20° field of view of the XR gives me adequate magnification. My plan (if I decide to keep my XR) is to remove the pin that limits close focusing, after which I hope to be able to focus down to 10cm.I had a quick look at Thermal Expert, but to get the 175°C temperature range and 20° field of view I would need to go to the TE – Q1 Pro with a 19mm lens at a price of over US$1000.With Therm App I would be looking at the Therm-App TH at a price of about US$2000.For comparison, my Seek XR cost me US$170.For occasional hobbyist use it is a big jump in price to the next better candidate...

author: meanie2
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2019, 08:47:16 am
content: Yup its a big price jump, come look at thishttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/seek-thermal-hardware-modification-to-improve-image-quality/

author: IwuzBornanerd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 10, 2019, 09:44:52 am
content: I was going to say that it looks like a lousy set of nonuniformity correction factors (NUC), because when I use the on-board NUC values with my cameras with my software I can get similar effects. There are data sets on the camera that I don't know what to do with, though, so it is certainly possible if not likely that I am missing a step or 2 of their corrections.I have essentially zero experience with the Seek app since I don't have a stupidphone but just a few days ago I discovered that when installed on my laptop the latest Android x86 runs the Seek app (version 2.15, IIRC) fairly well so I decided to get some comparison images. The first image I posted compares the image from the Seek app with ones from my program with the camera looking at the ceiling and you can see that the Seek app does a better job than I of applying their correction factors.BUT relevant to the op's question, what I saw when I hooked my FF Pro to the Seek app will be more interesting. When it was first hooked up and after it warmed up the image was fine but after a while it suddenly started showing a pattern and stayed that way. And when I hooked it to my program I saw that the pattern on the Seek app was much like the pattern on my software with NO corrections applied, which isn't much different from what it looks like with my program applying Seek's NUC. See the second image I posted here. Strange; I have never seen such a thing happen with my program! It makes it look like the app suddenly decided to stop applying the NUC or maybe just applied the part that I apply. You might see if you can get hold of an older version of the app & see if it behaves differently. What I saw with my FF Pro on the app fits what @Sensei described as occurring after it was running a while.The closest thing to that I've seen with my program is what I call the bubble which occurs more often (if not only) when the camera is out in the cold on the windowsill. And that usually only appears for a few shutter frame cycles. The third image shows what that looks like.I vote for an app problem although I can't imagine why/how it would stop applying the corrections. The patterns reported here are too much like what I see with no corrections applied.

author: eecs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2019, 03:09:42 am
content: Quote from: IwuzBornanerd on October 10, 2019, 09:44:52 amI got hold of a couple of old versions of the app (v1.9.5 and v2.0.3), uninstalled the current one and installed one of the old ones. It ran OK until I attached the camera, then it just kept on prompting with:Every time I ticked the box it just flashed some message (sorry I couldn't catch it; I think it was about updating the camera firmware?) and then displayed this prompt again. Both old versions behaved this way. When I reinstalled the latest app everything went back to working normally again. Is it possible they have disabled reverting to earlier camera firmware?I noticed that my camera seems to behave slightly better if it never experiences any interruption from cold to fully warmed up. Once it has warmed up for 10 minutes or so, if I do something like view a saved image in the Seek app's gallery and then go back to the camera almost immediately (less than 5 seconds in the gallery) this is what I then see:Again this is aimed at the floor, which was at a uniform temperature of about 14°C.Just to put all this in perspective, in case it seems I am merely picking on a uniform scene which shows up defects that don't matter in practical applications, here is a thermal image of my UPS:and here is the same as a visible:The thermal image is not useless (the red area on the top of the UPS is actually about 23°C, so the image is not too far out from its usual -6°C error, and the location of the hottest part is correct) but the noise makes it hard to identify objects. Here is the same visible but this time reduced to the 206x156 resolution of the thermal camera:which is the level of detail that I was hoping to see from a 206x156 resolution thermal camera.I will try to get hold of a suitable cable or adapter so that I can connect my XR to my computer to see if it is the app or the hardware causing me grief. Where is the best place to find the latest and greatest versions of software (preferably for Linux, but I can probably get hold of a Windows PC if necessary) that will work with the Seek XR?

author: IwuzBornanerd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2019, 08:42:55 am
content: Yeah I suppose your camera has newer firmware than the old app is aware of. I have to wonder if the app has screwed with my cameras now without telling me. Your video looks like the typical warmup behavior. Does the camera stop the clicking sound while you are in the gallery? If so this is not too surprising except that I wouldn't think it would cool down so much in 5sec.Anything that is the same temperature, or very close, will show up as the same color so you will not necessarily get visual image detail. Here is a sample from my newest XR looking at my cordless phone sitting on top of an old answering machine surrounded by papers & other stuff with a wall in the background:How visible things are can also depend on how distinct the colors of the palette are. In this image I moved the "center" of the temperature range so that the temperatures are different colors from the other image and it's harder to see some of the detail:I thought Amazon had a cable that would work, but if they don't they do have a board-mounted microUSB connector that you could make a cable out of an old mouse cable or other.https://www.amazon.com/MagiDeal-10pcs-Female-Pinboard-2-54mm/dp/B0183KF7TM/ref=pd_bxgy_328_img_2/138-6467597-0188311?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0183KF7TM&pd_rd_r=3217a2bb-01b8-4fb8-9748-74d7b6697f9a&pd_rd_w=IQN5F&pd_rd_wg=AfyZt&pf_rd_p=09627863-9889-4290-b90a-5e9f86682449&pf_rd_r=9EC0JBMKQB2W849EN54S&psc=1&refRID=9EC0JBMKQB2W849EN54SWell, since you are using Linuxyou are welcome to try my Python codehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/running-seek-thermal-cameras-%28-others%29-on-a-raspberry-pi/new/?topicseen#newI won't brag about how late & great it is but it may be more "feature rich" than the ones you find on GitHub. I don't think this version is able to use the on-board NUC data from newer Seeks so you will have to follow the directions for creating the NUC data in order to get a clean image. Good luck; I hope it makes the camera behave more consistently.

author: eecs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2019, 10:23:33 am
content: Quote from: IwuzBornanerd on October 11, 2019, 08:42:55 amThe camera does stop clicking in the gallery, but I doubt it missed more than one click. And however long I wait it never recovers the initial performance. To get back to optimal performance I have to let the camera cool right down (30 minutes or so) and then connect it and let it warm up again (a further five minutes). And if I happen to accidentally touch one of the buttons in the app (or my phone's "back" button) I have to go back to the beginning again!Here is how the initial warmup appears:You will observe the reported temperature falling from 18°C to about 11°C (the floor was actually 17°C for the duration), but there is very little gradient, just noise and the vertical stripes. Much more what I would have expected for a scene with little temperature variation.Here is a still:Quote from: IwuzBornanerd on October 11, 2019, 08:42:55 amThank you, if I make any progress I will let you know!

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2019, 10:38:39 am
content: Would it be worth sending an email to SEEK Thermal. Then at least they will be aware of the issue and may rectify the situation.From the symptoms it does indeed appear to be a mixture of camera self heating and the applications inability to track such. A thermal camera normally contains temperature sensors in the microbolometer, the camera chassis and sometimes the lens assembly. In the case of the SEEK, the chassis and Microbolometer sensors should be updating the camera firmware on changes to the cameras temperature. The firmware then applies any required corrections to the calibration tables to minimise the effects of this on measurements and image quality. It sounds like something has gone wrong in that part of the image processing chain.Fraser

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2019, 11:11:29 am
content: Further to my last, some owners of the SEEK cameras may not be aware that the SEEK Classic suffered a serious issue with hardware induced image non uniformity. This was believed to be connected with either the FFC shutter flag design or the port for the flag at the side of the optical block barrel.The non uniformity produced a temperature gradient on one side of the display. SEEK Thermal used a software ‘trick’ to hide this non uniformity but they never revealed how they did it.The images that appear to have a halo type effect are classic lens profile induced non uniformity. The lens is thicker at its centre and transmission is slightly less than at the thinner edges of the lens elements. The cameras calibration corrects this non uniformity in the NUC tables so it is usually invisible to the user. If the NUC table is not applied or becomes ineffective due to changes in the camera compared to those at the time of calibration, the ‘Halo’ can become visible. The dead pixel map creaction software uses the non uniformity correction process at the factory calibration stage to identify any pixels that are non responsive or provide ‘out of range’ outputs that cannot be corrected. The dead pixel map appears to remain valid and in use on your pictures as loss of that correction function results in a huge number of dead pixels becoming visible in the displayed image.Fraser

author: eecs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2019, 12:20:45 pm
content: Quote from: Fraser on October 11, 2019, 10:38:39 amI did send some questions to SEEK Thermal on Monday, but so far all I have back is an automated reply saying that because their support desk is closed on Fridays they may take up to 10 business days to reply! I may need to decide about returning my camera before I get their response. I am not sure I want to get into a repair arrangement when I still have the option of a simple refund.The impression I have so far is that, while some of my camera's problems may be specific to my individual unit (and might therefore be repairable or solved by a replacement), other problems have been common to the SEEK Compact series. Possibly my expectations were unrealistic for a thermal camera at this price point. I hope to try my camera with IwuzBornanerd's PC program, but if that fails I suspect my best plan may be to get a refund and save up for a more up-market camera.

author: Bill W
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2019, 05:55:29 pm
content: The video shows you have set a 1°C span. You are likely to get quite a bit of fixed pattern noise with that little signal spread over a colour palette. I doubt any bolometer would be that much better.Colour non-uniformity always looks worse than in grey scale - the way the brain is wired up.The slow increase in temperature inaccuracy is that the flag temperature (as measured) is not the flag temperature in reality due to temperature gradients in the camera optics. As noted above, you'd need to measure a lot of locations to get it right.The camera flag / lens is warmer than the camera thinks it is. Each calibration click will include performing the following software logic:Here is a scene at 25°CRemember / set up so that that this is the signal level for each pixel being 25°CI have taken the flag awayAny change in signal level is the temperature difference from 25°C.Now if the flag was really 30°C your floor of 17°C is 13° cooler than the flag, so it reads it out as 25-13 = 12°C.Equally if the lens exposed by the flag is cooler than the flag, by exposing the cooler lens this will drag down the overall picture temperature.Bill

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 11, 2019, 07:46:00 pm
content: Well spotted Bill W. I did not watch the video, only the still imagesYes indeed, a temperature span of only 2 degrees C or so is very demanding of even high cost professional cameras. I would suspect that such a small, temperature span is unrealistic for the SEEK camera as temperature stability becomes a real issue and Bill W has detailed those challenges for the SEEK camera.Bill W, thanks for drawing my attention to the spanFraser

author: IwuzBornanerd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 07:53:48 am
content: Expanding on Bill W's comments, the value of the second pixel in the non-pro Seek images is not part of the image but rather appears to be an indication of the camera temperature since it varies a nice linear 10 "counts" per degree F; at least between 80F or 90F and -10F. In the Pro, this value is placed in one of the extraneous non-image rows of the raw data. And as Bill W said, this value lags the actual temperature of the sensor & flag during warmup. I tried to track out the resulting variation in my own software but it caused other problems and I gave up after realizing that there was no way for the software to know whether the camera was "cold" when the program started or if it had been disconnected after warming up & then quickly re-connected; in which case there would not be the long warmup to track. If the Seek app tries to track out the warmup lag and in order to do so assumes that the camera was cold when attached that could be why you have to let the camera cool down before re-attaching in order to get good images.Back in my early days of experimenting with the XR, I aimed the camera at the surface of a tray of water I had heated & captured the frame data in text files as the water cooled. I examined the data and found that with the room temperature at 78F the differences between the scene pixel values and those of the flag were smallest and both + & - when the water was about 115F (as measured by an IR thermometer), so I concluded that the flag was that much warmer than the device measuring the temperature once the camera is warmed up. I was surprised that it was that much warmer.I agree with Bill W about the temperature span. For a Seek and what I call super smooth palettes the narrowest temperature span that is reasonable to use is about 6 degrees C. I have made my own palettes wherein each color can be distinguished from the adjacent color (by my eyes anyway) and you need to keep a much wider span with those--about 0.1C per color. I pulled the 1000 shade "rainbow" & "iron" palettes into my palette editor & deleted colors until I could tell the difference between adjacent shades & I reduced one of them to 30 colors & the other to 50, so a 5 or 6 degree C span with the full 1000 shades would enable you to see .1C or .2C differences, which doesn't look too bad on Seeks, as you can see in my second post above.

author: IwuzBornanerd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 07:57:51 am
content: Quote from: eecs on October 11, 2019, 12:20:45 pmThe next response you get might be from someone who ignored your question & said to check this, that, and another link and if you don't find an answer then reply to the message...and by the way we closed your "ticket" but we'll re-open it if you reply.

author: eecs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 09:44:13 am
content: Quote from: Bill W on October 11, 2019, 05:55:29 pmOK, here are some images with wider spans (up to a span of 22°C):Unfortunately I don't have access to any other bolometer to work out if this is typical noise for such spans. Note that apart from the cup itself the entire background was a uniform 19°C.QuoteHere are similar images in grey scale:QuoteThe variation I am seeing (today), measuring an ambient temperature of 19°C, goes from 20°C very briefly when first starting up, down to 11°C after half an hour - an 8°C error. I accept your explanation for why this happens, but I would have expected manufacturers to have made better allowance for it than this. A web search regarding thermal camera error at ambient turned up:Quote from: Fraser on June 01, 2018, 05:04:12 pmwhich was rather my own sentiment!I had partial success with IwuzBornanerd's software. I got it to compile and connect to my camera, but it was convinced my scene contained points at -40°C. I calibrated according to the instructions (replacing pixelcal.txt and refframe.txt with my own calfile.txt and newreffile.txt respectively) and got a couple of images:which seem to have less of the vertical stripes and noise, but that may just be because of the wider span forced by the -40°C lower bound. After taking these photos I then updated pixelcal.txt and refframe.txt again, after which all I get is:so I am not sure what I have done wrong or how to fix it, let alone how to get the -40°C lower bound to match reality! Most likely Seek have updated the camera firmware.Nevertheless thanks very much to IwuzBornanerd for the program; it has already convinced me that a significant part of the problem lies in the Seek app...

author: Fraser
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 11:08:29 am
content: The pictures taken using Iwuzbornanerd’s app show a lack of pixel non uniformity correction, hence the peppering of lighter and darker pixels and presence of black dead pixels.The -40C readings are from dead pixels that are evident in the imageThese dead pixels are normally captured in the dead pixel map and removed from view and excluded from auto ranging calculations.The pictures you provided using the SEEK app look similar to those I have seen from SEEK classic models...... noisy with vertical striping very evident. There are some very pronounced vertical stripes in your images though. I find it hard to comment on whether your images are ‘typical’ of your SEEK camera as I have seen much variance in the images that these camera produce. One forum member has a SEEK Pro that was exceptionally low noise and produced an excellent image ...... some of the time ! At other times it was just as noisy as other SEEK cameras.Fraser

author: Tinderbox (UK)
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 03:57:33 pm
content: I have the Seek Compact the one with the focus but no zoom, I use it on my Samsung Galaxy S3.Every time i connect the camera i get the usb detection pop-up and it does not matter if i tick or untick the box and then press ok, It will ask again when i connect the camera next time.I did a 12min test with my camera facing my wooden floor for approx 12min from the camera being cold and the room temp at approx 18cI had the green screen even across the entire display but when the calibrate click comes (every 5 seconds) it goes slightly yellow and then straight back to green, I do have the vertical stripes but it does not seem to affect the performance.I have no off colour areas as long as i keep myself away from the camera, But as soon as i go near the camera even though i am behind it i start to see colour changes, I believe the wooden floor is reflecting my body heat like when you video though a window you see yourself it`s a reflection.Anyway i have only had my camera a couple of day`s and love it, I can see my cat`s footprints for 30 seconds after it has walked across my wooden floor, and a million other wonders that i was oblivious too with my human eye`sIt`s well worth the money in my opinion.John.

author: IwuzBornanerd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 12, 2019, 10:03:33 pm
content: Quote from: eecs on October 12, 2019, 09:44:13 amYou're welcome.You can force the temperature span by clicking the "PalZm" button to get it out of the default auto-ranging mode & click it multiple times to change the span. With the "iron" or "rainbow" palettes the span will be about 6 degrees when the number is 160, which is 160 shades per degree (after 160 it cycles back to Auto). Then put the first marker in a mid-temperature spot & use the "Mkr1-ctr" button to position the "center" of the palette to a reasonable spot.But what is disturbing to me is that in your images pixel 1 is reported as 6550! I only see that high a number on my Pro's; the non-pro cameras all are in the 4000 range. I need to think more about that & look at the code but it is likely affecting the temperature calculations (although it may not be causing the -40 readings. The temperatures are obviously wrong in your images though.In the Python file, at about line 524 you will find a set of lines commented out that cause the program to write the non-image startup files to disk. Could you please un-comment those lines (you could alsoadd another &no, change the & to and in the if statement) & run the program & then post those files here? Seek has changed the contents of one or two of them once & they might have changed them again. It has been almost 3 years since I bought a non-pro Seek.

author: eecs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 02:47:57 am
content: Quote from: Tinderbox (UK) on October 12, 2019, 03:57:33 pmWhat temperature did the camera report for the 18°C scene?QuoteThat sounds similar to what I get the first time from cold. What happens if you briefly go into the Seek app's gallery tab to look at a picture you have taken, and then return to the camera? Is the green still even across the entire display?

author: eecs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 02:56:36 am
content: Quote from: IwuzBornanerd on October 12, 2019, 10:03:33 pmOK I tried that, but at present any spot I choose alternates rapidly between -40°C and about 10°C:QuoteHere is a zip archive of all the pixelfile*.txt files:pixelfiles.zip(1451.32 kB - downloaded 90 times.)

author: IwuzBornanerd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 06:33:03 am
content: Thank you. They added 6 files!! I wonder what they are all for.The curve in frame 9 is the same as what is in the Pro cameras and as such the values are roughly double what they USED to be in the non-pro units. I use this data to determine temperature, so this needs to be accounted for.In the Python file you will find the following section of code at line 577:Code:curvebase = (ret9+256*ret9)ix = 0index = 0while index < 11316:index = (ret9[2*ix]+256*ret9[2*ix+1]) - curvebaseif( (index > -1) & (index < 11317) ):diffcurve = ix & 0xffdiffcurve = ix >>8ix=ix+1Replace that with this:Code:curvebase = (ret9+256*ret9)ix = 0index = 0if(curvebase == 2000 ):while index < 11316:index = (ret9[2*ix]+256*ret9[2*ix+1]) - curvebaseif( (index > -1) & (index < 11317) ):diffcurve = ix & 0xffdiffcurve = ix >>8ix=ix+1if(curvebase == 4000 ):curvebase = curvebase/2while index < 14430:index = (ret9[2*ix]+256*ret9[2*ix+1])/2 - curvebaseif( (index > -1) & (index < 14430) ):diffcurve = ix & 0xffdiffcurve = ix >>8ix=ix+1Hopefully I have all the syntax & indents correct.I don't expect this to necessarily fix what happened when you re-did the calibration, though, but I hope that it will make the temperatures closer to real after re-doing the cal again...OR did you already try re-doing the cal again and get the same black-and-white mess you have shown twice now?

author: Tinderbox (UK)
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 08:26:54 am
content: Quote from: eecs on October 13, 2019, 02:47:57 amThe camera stops clicking when in the gallery, After i leave the gallery i get a lot of red around the edge of the screen then yellow and then green in the centre, the camera does 5 clicks fast and then i get some yellow full image and then green full image for maybe 10 seconds before the camera settle back to green across the full image.The camera when it comes out of gallery with the 5 fast clicks is the same as when the camera first starts up after being plugged in like a full recalibration and then it`s back to a click every 5 seconds.John.

author: eecs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 09:31:02 am
content: Quote from: IwuzBornanerd on October 13, 2019, 06:33:03 amJust needed to increase the allocation size for diffcurve from 13320 to 14430, otherwise OK.QuoteI had redone the calibration several times in the hope of getting something sensible.However, with your revised code, I am back to getting recognisable shapes:In the config file I have set the pixel 1 value to 6552, ForC to C, and ambientT to 20, but I didn't know what to do with diffshouldbe so I left it at -487.Redoing the calibration with your new code didn't seem to make much difference. Should I calibrate with smoothing on or off, or doesn't it matter?For your reference (for the plugpack) the background should be about 20°C and the hot spot should be about 36°C. Strange that the hot spot is being reported as a higher temperature than the upper end of auto span?The black dots in the laptop image are jittering around in the sort of figure-of-8 pattern you would get if you joined the dots. I tried taking a video, and the program said it was recording, but there was no video file created - probably I messed up the installation of some necessary library.

author: eecs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 09:43:16 am
content: Quote from: Tinderbox (UK) on October 13, 2019, 08:26:54 amWow, so spot on at ambient, compared to an error of at least 6°C and sometimes up to 8°C on my camera!QuoteOK, so a full recovery within 10 seconds, compared to my camera that still is not back to optimal performance after several minutes.I can understand why you are happy with your one!Now I just need to work out if you got an unusually good one, or I got an unusually bad one...

author: Tinderbox (UK)
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 01:47:03 pm
content: Quote from: eecs on October 13, 2019, 09:43:16 amI added the image with the 18c high and 18c low to my previous post.But remember i have the "Seek Compact with the adjustable focus not the XR version", though they should both have the same sensor.John.

author: IwuzBornanerd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 13, 2019, 05:40:31 pm
content: Quote from: eecs on October 13, 2019, 09:31:02 amOf courseQuoteThat's as good as anything at this point.QuoteThe settings have no effect on the calibration operation. For calibration the program takes the values from frame 3 (your external uniform temp. scene or an average of those frames) and subtracts the values from frame 1 (the image of the flag) to get a set of what I call "diffs". Then the program divides those diffs by the surmised value that all those diffs "should be" if the sensor were perfectly as designed with no pixel to pixel variations. That is what diffshouldbe is. It needs to be tweaked but something close to 500 has worked quite well so far.As I look at my latest (non Python) code and the Python code it is apparent that I have not studied the Pro enough to have a good idea how to handle the new frame 9. What I gave you was a workaround that I have in my latest code which is intended to get the curve numbers similar to those of the old frame 9. Along with that it seems that I should have done something similar to the pixel 1 value but that is not in the code...EXCEPT that in my latest code I set it to 4872 for the Pro even though the pro reports something over 6100 on startup! And the temperatures I get off the Pro are okay at least near room temp. Hmmm. I also have diffshouldbe at 687 for the Pro.I also see that in the Python code according to the calculations it expects the ambientT to be in Fahrenheit, not either F or C as stated in the config. "My bad"--forgot I was going to accommodate that I guess.So you may get temperatures closer to real if you put ambientT in F, list pixel1atT as 4872 & diffshouldbe at 687.I think in order to answer your question as to whether the problems you observe are the camera we need to see images with a 6C span and see if it stays stable. The correctness of the temperature is secondary. No?Sorry to put you through such a hassle with the software. It points out a problem with hackware--the hacker has to keep up with the changes the hackee makes.The stuff you observe is crazy. I don't know how it could be the camera & I think it's sad if the app is doing what it appears to be doing. And all the more strange if it does not do it for Tinderbox. Do you guys have the same version of the app?? The version I have on Androidx86 apparently is doing it with my Pro, as shown earlier.QuoteIt uses openCV for writing the videos; see if you got all the "Also now requires" at the top of the Python file.

author: eecs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 03:44:44 am
content: Quote from: IwuzBornanerd on October 13, 2019, 05:40:31 pmYou converted it to F early on, so that was OK:Code:if(ForC < 0): ambientT = ambientT*1.8 + 32 #convert to Fahrenheit for use in finding ref point on curveQuoteNo luck there; the temperatures were reported as over 100°C. I tried just lowering ambientT, but it was still reading high when I got to -40°C, and then the image went black!QuoteIndeed, and the temperatures reported do seem to stable (at least when I stop fiddling with the config file). What is also interesting is that with your program I can stop the program for a few seconds, then run it again, and almost immediately get images just as good as before, and certainly without the halo effect. There is also much less of the vertical striping evident with your program compared to the Seek app.I still seem to be getting just a few pixels that are way out and pulling the lower temperature down:so I modified your smoothing code to pick the median of the 9 adjacent pixels instead of the mean. I then see:Here is an image with about a 6°C span:and here is one with a 16°C span:and the same immediately after stopping and restarting the program:QuoteNo need to apologise to me - I am glad to have anything at all, and greatly appreciate you having released your code.QuoteSince both Tinderbox and I only very recently bought the cameras, and since he is on a Samsung S3 and I am on a Samsung S5, I think it almost certain we both run the latest Play Store version. For what it is worth my one reports itself as version 2.1.5.2, with Image Processing Software 2.5.6.2.My temperature error could be bad calibration data being supplied by the camera to the app, as could the vertical stripes and some of noise. It is hard to imagine how the same app could recover quickly from a warm start for Tinderbox but not for me, especially when your program recovers from a warm start for me with no problem!Anyway, thank you very much for your help (you and the other contributors in this thread). I don't think it is worth you wasting more of your time on my problem; I have satisfied myself that my camera/app combination is not working as it should, so I would most likely return it even if we could get the hardware to work with a third-party program.

author: IwuzBornanerd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 07:49:37 am
content: QuoteYou know, I thought I did that but didn't find it when I looked for it last night.QuoteNice idea, I might try that out; but you have a wider span there wherein those pixels might not be different enough shades for you to see them.QuoteNow THAT is what you wanted to see in the beginning, right? You can see the shape of the thing.QuoteMy guess on the temperature is that they don't have any number stored on the camera that ties the ambient temperature to a particular value reading from the temperature sensor thus exposing the reading to the full tolerance of the temperature sensing device. That is of course just a guess. The 2 variables I have in the config file are my attempt at eliminating that problem.Happy you were able to prove that the camera essentially works. Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with the camera or any data on it but as you say, you need the app & the camera to work together. From what I read on this forum the Seek app is their biggest anti-selling point.

author: IwuzBornanerd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 14, 2019, 07:53:57 am
content: Quote from: Tinderbox (UK) on October 13, 2019, 01:47:03 pmYes, they have the same sensor & pcb assembly number & revision--at least between a 2015 XR & an end-of 2016 non-XR

author: eecs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2019, 12:49:13 am
content: Quote from: IwuzBornanerd on October 12, 2019, 07:57:51 amSeek replied after only 5 business days, and said that between 0°C and 100°C the Compact series should be within ±5°C and that accuracy should improve over the first 1 minute from cold. Since my unit's accuracy deteriorated over about 5 minutes from cold, deteriorated further if stopped and restarted, and ultimately reached an error of 8°C when fully warm and after a restart, it was clearly out of spec and I have now returned it. Amazon did not give me the option of a replacement (refund was my only choice) so now I have to decide if I want to risk buying another Seek XR, save up for something like a TE Q1 pro, or wait a year or two for the technology to get better and cheaper...

author: IwuzBornanerd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 21, 2019, 11:34:00 pm
content: It's hard to beat that $170 (US) price for 30k thermal pixels isn't it? My guess is that this is Amazon's close-out sale on the micro USB version. They also have had the slow frame Pro on sale for $270 & that is why I bought one. NOW they say it "ships in 1-2 months" so maybe Seek isn't making them anymore since phones are going to USB-C.I also noticed that Amazon is not selling ANY "Fast Frame" Pros and Seek's feature comparison table for the compact models lists the Pro as <9Hz, so I wonder if Seek has given up selling FF units--maybe because it takes a 2GHz phone to get FF out of it.I know you said not to spend more time on the matter but since I have 5 Seeks I thought I'd run some tests on them with respect to the issues reported in this thread to see what sort of "spread" in performance there is on the Seek app, now that I can actually run the Seek app.Here is a summary of what I found:ModelStart temp CSettled temp C (3-4min)unplug/galleryJune 2015 XR3526Comes back with 18-22C pattern, keeps pattern but recovers to 23-25C on the patternJan 2017 nonXR3025Recovers in a few secondsJan 2017 XR3529Recovers in a few secondsDec 2017 Pro FF332924-33C degree pattern, recovered to 1 degree pattern one timeSept 2019 Pro323027-32 degree pattern, recovered after gallery but not all the timeIn all cases the camera was face down on a piece of paper that was about 9 inches from the exhaust of the laptop computer running the app. I didn't realize it until I measured the temperature of the paper with an IR thermometer, but the paper was heated by the laptop & was hotter at the edge than where the camera was and was warmer than room ambient by about 2C where the camera was. So the paper was 27C according to the IR thermometer.I went back to apkpure.com to get an older version of the app to see if it displayed the same problem and I found a just-released version 2.1.6.0 & tried that, but it did not fix the disconnect/gallery problem. In fact, the temperatures were farther off with the Pro units on that version of the app. None of the older versions of the app even worked with the camera on Android x86.Using an oscilloscope I see that the USB communication does stop when you go into the gallery or do anything else in Android, so it effectively disconnects the camera, but I have no way of knowing if the app re-initializes the camera or re-loads the on-camera data.I thought perhaps the pattern issue was due to the camera being stable at temperature while the software was expecting it to change so I let the FF Pro warm up, disconnected & reconnected it & then put it in the hot exhaust of from the laptop for a few minutes and then back face down on the paper. The pattern changed! I think it did go back to the first pattern after cooling back down, though.FF Pro after reconnect:Then after heating:Another thing that is odd is that after the Pro's warm up on the hot-off-the-press app they have a pattern (only 1C but a pattern):What a mess.

author: eecs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 12:20:15 am
content: Quote from: IwuzBornanerd on October 21, 2019, 11:34:00 pmSo all your Seeks are within the specified ±5°C after warmup (at least the first time from cold).We can probably forgive the noise and patterns on a 1°C range.That just leaves the extreme (10°C range on a uniform scene!!) gradient seen after briefly viewing the gallery or doing anything else that stops the camera. Do you get any sign of this happening if you do the same test using your software, or is this a "feature" of the Seek app rather than the hardware?

author: IwuzBornanerd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 01:48:27 am
content: As I said before I have never seen such an obvious pattern when reconnecting with m y own software, but for the sake of completeness I ran some tests, since I don't regularly unplug & immediately re-start the cameras. Here goes...FFPro warmed up:FFPro after 10sec unplug (program waits 10sec to try reconnecting):FFPro a minute after re-attach (did not take all that time to recover):2015XR cold start:2015XR warmed up:2015XR after 10sec disconnect:2015XR shortly after re-connect:2017XR cold start:2017XR warmed up:2017XR after re-start (program could not reconnect after unplug):2017XR shortly after re-connect:So there is a bit of a pattern but it is not much of a temperature span except perhaps with the 2015XR, but that camera has 4 times as much noise as the newer ones so it's easier to look bad. I skipped the slow frame Pro because I don't have the software coded to use a special set of NUC files for that one since I just got it and am working on making the code more versatile in that regard. I skipped the non-XR because it tested similar to the 2017XR in the Seek app tests.

author: Tinderbox (UK)
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 08:38:31 pm
content: Just tried my Seek Compact again since i updated there was a software update a couple of day`s ago.Same test camera pointing down at my wooden floor, Room temp 17CStarted camera a pointed it at the floor off the edge of an table high temp is 19C but within 10 seconds it dropped to 17c, I also have an hand-held infra-red thermometer and it says my floor is at 17COne problem with the new software i have to make sure the app is ended/closed not sitting in the background or it will not detect my camera when i plug it in.John.

author: IwuzBornanerd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 08:23:42 am
content: Quote from: Tinderbox (UK) on October 22, 2019, 08:38:31 pmVersion 2.1.6.0? I checked for that problem here. I don't see it under Androidx86. Plug in camera, app pops up asking if it's okay to access the device; run app; disconnect camera; open terminal emulator or file manager, plug in camera & app pops back up. No need to close out of app.Crazy app, crazy OS; happy I don't need to use either.

author: Tinderbox (UK)
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 11:27:54 am
content: Software version 2.1.6.0, Image Processing Software 2.6.1.12My Galaxy S3 is only on Android v4.3 the last official.I do have an Galaxy S5 boxed up somewhere i will have to give it a go.The pop-up asks every time even though i tick the box on my S3John.

author: eecs
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 12:35:16 pm
content: Quote from: Tinderbox (UK) on October 23, 2019, 11:27:54 amDid the same for me on my S5.

author: Tinderbox (UK)
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 12:42:14 pm
content: I tried my S5 and it works fine apart from the pop-up and it works even if the app is still in memory unlike my S3 which is only works now and then if the app is in memory but everytime if it`s ended and then restarted.The seek software versions are the same version on my S3 and S5.John.

author: IwuzBornanerd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 09:02:01 pm
content: Quote from: eecs on October 23, 2019, 12:35:16 pmSame here on Androidx86.