Meter for mains voltage.  - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: Ross_mini
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 11:31:34 am
content: I have a UT181a and 2 UT61e's which I use for electronics and automotive work. But I'm on the look out for a 'safe' meter for use on mains voltages. I don't do that much work with mains. Just mainly 5 and 12 volt stuff.Would a fluke 101 be a good choice or should I be looking at spending more?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 12:07:24 pm
content: Quote from: Ross_mini on October 17, 2016, 11:31:34 amFluke 101 is perfect for mains work. It has a full CAT III rating.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 12:26:27 pm
content: The UT61E is fine for regular use on the mains and I use one regularly! Even up to 600-700 VDC, but only if you observe some precautions:* Inspect the probes regularly. I don't use the provided ones, instead preferring some nice Pomona ones.* Don't probe live ever, unconditionally.* Double check range before power up.* Don't change the range when it's connected in circuit.* Don't touch the device when it is connected in circuit, just observe the measurement.* Double check connection and jack fitting before you power up.If you don't work with the mains regularly, you should observe these precautions anyway. A Fluke won't save you from a probe accident, damaged probes or having no idea what you are doing. The only gain from a Fluke is that it probably won't blow up spectacularly if you get a big mains transient.Bear in mind 99% of the Fluke advantage which is so commonly crowed on here is a recent marketing thing. Going back 30 years every meter would explode if you did something stupid including a big chunk of Flukes (the early 8000 series was a pretty lethal and badly designed bit of kit). Make sure you know what you're doing and develop a process of not doing stupid things and life is good.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 02:07:38 pm
content: Quote from: setq on October 17, 2016, 12:26:27 pmOr... you could get a meter that doesn't have a "wrong" position for the leads, can probe liveandallows you to spin the selector dial while connected to mains.Quote from: setq on October 17, 2016, 12:26:27 pmBut now some manufacturers make meters that don't.Quote from: setq on October 17, 2016, 12:26:27 pmRight!Quote from: setq on October 17, 2016, 12:26:27 pmThe real "stupid" would be using a meter that can blow up spectacularly if you get a big mains transient or do the slightest thing wrong.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 02:31:50 pm
content: It's not going to blow itself to bits if you hit it with a transient unless we're talking kV strikes. It's just going to stop working and blow the front end. Then you throw it away and buy another one.Also what you're probing which is carrying serious current is more likely to blow up on you than a high impedance load like a meter. That and probing accidents is what is dangerous.Seriously, I very much doubt that you're less likely to kill yourself with a Fluke in general electrical/electronic tasks unless the other meter you are using happens to have a 1950's style ground ref chassis and a faulty earth.The advice on here seems to be blow £400 on a Fluke yet never do I hear a single procedural guide or hear of safety glasses...A muppet can kill themselves with a spoon.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 02:57:22 pm
content: Quote from: setq on October 17, 2016, 02:31:50 pmAs the front end blows and draws more current than it should, you jerk back from the live test point an arc forms from one live point to the just disconnected probe. Given the right conditions, this arc starts ionizing the air around it creating a flash that will give you severe burns and possibly blindness. This happened to two people, one probing the other standing behind the prober, where I once worked.It would appear there are several ways muppets can kill themselves

author: joseph nicholas
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 02:59:15 pm
content: I stuck a fork in an electrical outlet one, got a big shock and I have never forgotten it after 65 years.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 03:01:09 pm
content: Quote from: setq on October 17, 2016, 02:31:50 pmA meter with no "wrong" dial setting or probe connectionsissafer.Quote from: setq on October 17, 2016, 02:31:50 pmA Fluke 101 is $42 delivered.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 03:18:27 pm
content: Fungus: I concede, that's fine. But I wouldn't buy one if I already had another meter. If I was to spend $42, I'd rather spend it on a second hand 77 or something. The general quality of the bottom end Flukes is crap and the 101 is Chinese market typically, missing leads half the time and the frequency counter is shit on it.Quote from: AlfBaz on October 17, 2016, 02:57:22 pmThere are indeed many ways.My previous points about procedure and safety glasses (arc flash safety glasses in this case if you are dealing with high energy stuff) still stand based on the above. That could indeed happen to a £1k special muppets edition bright red intrinsically safe Fluke with more marketing applied to it and a youtube video or two of a cheap generic meter exploding and a fluke not with a thousand threads on eevblog clapping about it.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 03:36:17 pm
content: Quote from: setq on October 17, 2016, 03:18:27 pmPerhaps you should quit while you're ahead. You have just revealed something else you know very little about... Safety. Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) is thelastline of defence, eliminating the hazard is the first

author: Loboscope
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 03:39:00 pm
content: I have too a UNI-T UT61E, but the german version, which is downgraded to CAT III 300 Volt / CAT II 600 Volt, therefore it has the "GS"-Logo ("geprüfte Sicherheit" - tested safety). With CAT III 300 Volt is is suitable for testing mainsinsidethe house,behindthe main terminal. It can be used for testing main voltage inside mains powered devices which are installed fixed (like motors) and devices which are connected to mains with plug - in this case up to 600 Volt.The Fluke 101 is rated CAT III 600 Volt and therefore it should be safer when higher voltage peaks will occur (but I don´t have one, so I cannot evaluate its quality) . The UT139C could be an alternative, because it is also rated CAT III 600 Volt and if you look for opinions about the UT139C in the forum it will be trusted. I have one UT 139C and I prefer using this meter for probing mains (also onlyinsidethe house).For probing power bus bars I use a Benning Duspol which is rated CAT IV 600 Volt.So it depends on the point where you will probe mains. If it will only be inside devices with a plug, the UT61E will be absolutely sufficient.But it should be clear, that probing mains voltage willalwaysdemand the knowledge of any corresponding safety-rules! Using a safe meter is one point, the knowledge is the most important.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 03:48:36 pm
content: Quote from: setq on October 17, 2016, 03:18:27 pmThe Fluke 101 is the reference standard in the meter robustness thread, ahead of even the Fluke 87V. It's the meter all others are compared against.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/Do you really recommend a meter with a false "CAT IV 600V" stamped on the front in a thread about safety?

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 03:52:57 pm
content: Quote from: Loboscope on October 17, 2016, 03:39:00 pmIn the robustness tests the UT139C failed at 5kV. The Fluke 101 has never failed a test (so far tested up to 12KV).https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 04:00:33 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on October 17, 2016, 03:36:17 pmThe word procedure in my comment covers that entirely. You are 100% correct there. I don't disagree.Loboscope hits the nail on the head.

author: Loboscope
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 04:09:37 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 17, 2016, 03:52:57 pmSo the UT139 is (slightly) misratedAccording to the CAT-ratings, rated CAT III 600 V it should withstand a peak of 6000 Volt. And when the Fluke could withstand 12 kV it fulfils even CAT IV 1000 V - Chapeau!But as mentioned above, fulfilling the according CAT-rate of the meter will not replace the according knowledge of the user.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 04:17:59 pm
content: As Joe has repeated many times, and has even changed the subject of his thread to avoid misconceptions, his tests are not an indication of any meter's ability to pass their CAT ratings. The tests are to show the robustness of the meters to function after abuse, misuse, and every day errors. The tests can give an indication as to how well these meters might pass a proper CAT test or how well they might protect the user, but that is not his intent.A generic UT61E should not be considered safe for mains use. Its CAT rating is a lie. The GS version can be trusted for its CAT rating. The UT139C is much safer but it is not a given that it is fully compliant with its CAT ratings.The Fluke 101 would be a good choice, as would anything with proper third party testing and certification. CE markings mean nothing. Look for UL, CSA, TUV, GS etc.Other good choices: Anything Fluke, anything Keysight, most Amprobe, Extech MM series, anything Brymen, Hioki, Yokogawa.The second someone tells you to ignore safety rules and don't worry,worry. The ratings and rules have been implemented for reasons. They are from experience of people getting hurt and/or killed, or damaging equipment. Yes, some rules are to protect the stupid from themselves, but they are also there to protect the smart from themselves. We all forget things and humans tend to make errors and take short cuts when they think it "won't be a problem this one time". If you are inexperienced, the last thing you want to do is flaunt the safety rules. People do die from not knowing.

author: Ross_mini
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 08:25:29 pm
content: I understand your conserns about probing mains level stuff. Which is why I would like something that I know is a safe tool to use. Which is why I have come here for advice. I have seen many people do strupid things of the years. I have a few guys at work that have all the gear with no idea........I was replacing the heater element on my tumble drier which I tested with my UT181a, which is meant to be a high end UNI-T unit. It's a great meter what I use it for, mainly automotive, but it come to my mind that UNI-T don't seem to have the best track record with mains safety. Its rated to cat VI 600v if that is to be believed. So it made me think that I really should get something more suited to the job. Plus you can't have too many meters can't you?!I guess that the safety level of the fluke 101 would give me peace of mind. Would it be worth paying the extra for the 117? I guess the safety would be the same, just with more functionality? But like I said it's not every day I measure mains voltage levels.

author: Lightages
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 17, 2016, 11:28:20 pm
content: If you are going to pay the money for a 117, then consider a Brymen BM869S. It is less expensive and has a lot more functionality. It is also CATIV 1000V rated and fully reviewed by Joe here. If you want to spend less, then look at the BM235 or BM257S. They have similar functionality and safety as the 117 but at half the cost.I might also suggest that you consider a clamp meter like the Brymen BM65. Having a clamp meter is very useful for automotive work, and for checking household wiring and loads in the panel.

author: karoru
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 03:15:00 am
content: Quote from: setq on October 17, 2016, 12:26:27 pmThere is one main reason for this "recent marketing thing". Let's assume I'm owner of small company doing some electric installations and I buy a bunch of meters for my staff. If one of electricians do something really stupid, connect 5$ meter on amps to power grid or something and for example kills himself in the accident, there will be an investigation and they WILL ask for equipment used during measurement. And I will have a very bad time, despite the fact it's really only that poor guy's fault.That's also why we require miscellaneous electrical qualification exams and so on from people (and I for example can't change a lightbulb in my workplace while it's perfectly safe to do it at home for me) - if they put their extremities into live circuit then I can say they were trained and certified to help prove that I'm not liable for this sparky encounter.

author: BradC
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 04:50:05 am
content: Quote from: setq on October 17, 2016, 02:31:50 pmIn the mean time you can't work, and throw a whole lot of productive time away while you source a replacement.

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 05:45:01 am
content: Quote from: BradC on October 18, 2016, 04:50:05 amIf you're that dependent on it, buy a Keysight unit and wait to same amount of time for a warranty turnaround.Realistically that is only solved by buying more than one unit whatever the problem is and whatever meter you buy.I have a friend who is an electrician and he has a £600 'tester' (low precision high voltage meter with earth leakage bits on it) and the blew up due to an internal fault. I can't remember the brand unfortunately. That took a month for a warranty turnaround during which time he hit RS trade counter and grabbed one of their own brand units.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 09:52:39 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 18, 2016, 05:58:27 amI agree with you.. When I was kid and started with electronics (about 10 yo, that's more than 35y from now) I wanted a multimeter (one of those fancy, with moving coil, 50kOhm/volt, and AC voltage.. you get the drift..) It was expensive, and out of reach.. It took few years before I got one... Oh joy!! And being kid and all, i tried all the things and while doing it, I measured battery on Amps.. And fuse blew...On a first day I had it.. I still remember sitting there with sickness in the pit of my stomach... Opening it and finding a blown fuse.. I changed it and it worked... Man what a relief...Since then, in more than 30 years... not single one time i connected a piece of measuring equipment wrong way ... I guess I learned my lesson!!!

author: setq
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 10:54:21 am
content: Micronta POS moving coil thing here circa 1985. Same lesson, same result.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 11:34:21 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 18, 2016, 05:58:27 amLast time I did a "bring your multimeter" day at Arduino club not one person had an intact fuse.Your point was...?

author: mos6502
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:23:25 pm
content: Arduino users aren't known for their electronics skills ... otherwise, they wouldn't use ArduinoAlthough, I have to admit that I blew the fuse of my Fluke 77 after 17 years or so of owning it, trying to measure the voltage of a 12V SLA battery. So mistakes happen to the best of usBut, soon after that, I got a couple nice AC/DC current clamps, and now I only ever use the uA range of my meters. This is really the best way to go. No burden voltage, no messing around with unhooking connections and much safer than anything else. I would rather spend $200 on a current clamp and $50 on a meter than $250 on a meter. Plus, you can also use the clamp with a scope. A clamp is the most useful accessory, ever.QuoteNo, it's an excellent design. It was my first meter when I started out in electronics, and it's still in perfect working order. If it works when you get it, chances are it'll still work 20 years from now. It has good features, like the Fluke Touch Hold and beeping diode test (which allows you to test diodes and transistors without looking at the meter). Also, it has the lowest current draw of any meter I've seen: 250 uA while on VDC. My last battery lasted 10 years. It was down to 7 volts, meter worked fine, battery warning didn't even come on. Only reason I changed it was for preventive maintenance, in case it were to start leaking.

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 18, 2016, 01:36:12 pm
content: Quote from: mos6502 on October 18, 2016, 01:23:25 pmHow modest...

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 01:48:36 am
content: Quote from: blueskull on October 19, 2016, 12:09:01 amGulp! Guilty as chargedThe beeping/warning function on my fluke 87 has saved me more times than it should.Crawling around control cabinets, climbing around getting to field devices and measuring a bunch of different stuff whilst fault finding some intermittent, convoluted system, sometimes you just forget.In the "bad" old days when working on live panels was the norm, just the sight of those huge, discoloured bus bars would give me the heebie-jeebies, so naturally you try and pick equipment that would instil some confidence

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 19, 2016, 06:43:04 pm
content: If I remember IEC61010 one of the tests you have to do for multi-function meters (including multi-meters) is try to measure the rated voltage with the unit set to measure current (unless the leads used are not interchangeable). You are allowed to blow a fuse but no other damage. Transients (except those generated by the fuse blowing) don't apply to this.

author: Ross_mini
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 04:07:01 pm
content: So 101 or something from the brymen stable?I'm leaning towards the 101 as brymen don't seem supported/sold here in the U.K.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 04:19:55 pm
content: Quote from: Ross_mini on October 23, 2016, 04:07:01 pmI recently bought a Brymen BM869s from tme.eu and it was delivered in 3 days.If you can get hold of Dave's BM235 (from Amazon.com?) that's also good, it's more compact and it has the LoZ mode and non-contact voltage detection, both of which are useful for mains work.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2016, 07:57:06 pm
content: Quote from: Ross_mini on October 23, 2016, 04:07:01 pm101 is also half the price.(although it has a lot less features...)

author: Ross_mini
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 04:44:55 pm
content: Looks like the 101 isn't supported in the UK.I'll have to get I higher end model I guess. I don't want to end up with a Ebay unit that could be a clone!

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 04:55:27 pm
content: Quote from: Ross_mini on October 25, 2016, 04:44:55 pma) That's what eBay feedback is forb) There aren't any Fluke clones AFAIK. Fluke is very, very aggressive about that. You can't even makeyellow meterswithout Fluke beating you up.https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/are-these-genuine-flukes/msg607600/#msg607600

author: MosherIV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 04:58:06 pm
content: QuoteThe Fluke101, 15+ and 17+ are meant for China/India markets.They have NO official support here in the west.The official models that Fluke support here in the UK are the Fluke 110 series BUT these are not good for electronics work, no mA and no mV ranges, they are really electricians DMMs.The next range up will be the Fluke 70 or 170 series.

author: omgfire
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2016, 05:32:26 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 25, 2016, 04:55:27 pmSurely pure coincidence.