Audiophoolery phooled awesomely - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: kfitch42
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 04:00:25 pm
content: Quotehttp://gizmodo.com/363154/audiophile-deathmatch-monster-cables-vs-a-coat-hanger

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 04:09:02 pm
content: I guess you were reminded of that post by redditYeah... a few days ago i got into a forum "fight" with a guy that wanted 1m long Cat 7 network cables, because he thinks the music would sound better when transferred from his external Western Digital hard disk to his external DAC box.Apparently, the thicker copper wires and the insulation on each pair of the Cat 7 network cable makes the bits going through the cable happier. Idiots...

author: Stonent
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 04:10:30 pm
content: Directional arrows....

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 04:20:25 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on November 26, 2013, 04:09:02 pmwouldn't it be cooler to just enclose it all in a faraday's cage?

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 05:01:04 pm
content: quick , somebody sell gold plated coat hangers !

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 05:34:49 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on November 26, 2013, 05:01:04 pmBrilliant idea!

author: Phaedrus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 26, 2013, 05:37:36 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on November 26, 2013, 05:34:49 pmAnd once the audiophools catch wise, we can sell the left-over stock to the Saudis!

author: amyk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 08:00:14 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on November 26, 2013, 04:10:30 pmReminded me of this:

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 08:36:58 am
content: Why is it that audiophile arguments are almost indistinguishable from religious arguments?Oh, that's right, in both cases one side is delusional

author: rolycat
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 12:04:45 pm
content: Quote from: Phaedrus on November 26, 2013, 05:37:36 pmThe great thing about audiophools is that theynevercatch wise.The only way they'll abandon their gold-plated coat hangers will be when you create an ultra-grade rhodium plated coat hanger with wild silk insulation (woven by virgins from utopia land, obviously) and hand-carved beech support plinths.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 12:17:38 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on November 26, 2013, 04:09:02 pmAh, beginners! He should use OM4 multimode glassfiber. He'll will be blown away by the crystal clear and crisp bits :-)

author: Six_Shooter
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 12:28:24 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on November 27, 2013, 11:50:09 amUhhh...uuuhm....Please tell me that IS a joke... Please?

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 12:30:59 pm
content: Geoff Kait? He's a nutter but I have no reason to believe he's anything but completely serious about what he sells. His products have been reviewed by many such as Positive Feedback, Stereophile, etc. Shockingly, most of them get good reviews. I don't know if they are funded by him or not, but I can't believe anyone can seriously believe those to work.

author: AndyC_772
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 12:58:39 pm
content: Does remind me a bit of these guys:http://kalecoauto.com/

author: EEVblog
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 01:17:56 pm
content: Quote from: tom66 on November 27, 2013, 12:30:59 pmMost of them are, they really believe this stuff makes a difference.I always thought that machinadynamica was a joke though? I mean they are just so wacky and tacky, it's gotta be a joke, right?QuoteThey work the same way all the audiophool products work, psychology. And yes, it's a very real delusional effect to those who make and buy this stuff.It's not helped by the fact thatsomethings do make an audible difference of course, they just conveniently forget the fact that it's regular measurable electrical properties at play in those cases. Then they stretch that out into thinking they can hear the difference between two identical electrical spec speaker cables, when one has been cryogenicly frozen, and the other hasn't etc.It's a self perpetuating industry with those magazines.The editors want to hear the difference, so they do. And the readers want to read about them hearing the differences because it helps perpetuate their own delusions.

author: Tepe
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 01:22:53 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 27, 2013, 01:17:56 pm"natural musician's cork"

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 01:30:27 pm
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 27, 2013, 01:17:56 pmI said that last time his site was brought up, and was told that no, he's dead serious, even has reviews out and such. I still don't believe it. I think it's a joke gone a bit too far - maybe the dude even got a couple of the things reviewed by other sites as a matter of doing the joke to completion...These peopleseem to think he's not serious, though they don't seem too sure either.If he's actually selling "real" products, he is a particularly stupid twit, and if he's a scammer, he's stupid as well for narrowing his potential client base to those with an IQ under 4, but if he's joking, it's one of the most trollish (In a good way? I'm not sure), simultaneously best and worst fake products I've seen in a while.I'd say that whether it's a really well done joke or a joke carried too far and turned into a real scam hinges on what would happen if someone (other than a reviewer!) were to click "Buy Now" and make a purchase. Would he refund it?Now, even if it borders on "scam", I'm not sure how much I can hate him for it. Look at thekind of peoplewho defend his products' legitimacy. (Yes, he himself commented on that thread.) Maybe it makes me a bad person, but I can't feel too bad for anyone who basically says "anybody who thinks logically is a commie".

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 02:33:39 pm
content: He could be a Poe.http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe's_LawBut, this seems unlikely, given that he actually sells the products. Even if he were a Poe, and not a true Believer of the One True Sound, he's still a scammer by selling such products.

author: macboy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 02:43:13 pm
content: Quote from: madires on November 27, 2013, 12:17:38 pmI once had a spat with an audiophool over "glass fiber" TOSLINK (optical digital audio) cables vs. plain old plastic fiber. He claimed that the plastic ones had a bandwidth limit of 6 MHz, causing all manner of audible nastiness. When I showed him data illustrating that 2 meters of plastic fiber had several GHz of bandwidth, he of course wanted nothing to do with the data. He's also a power cord upgrader, using expensive "hospital grade" plugs (but specially gold-plated overpriced ones by an audiophoolery company) and specially wound super pure OFC blah blah power cables. I once asked him what had he done to upgrade the AC line between his breaker panel and the wall socket, since that's just a long, cheap run of Romex type solid (not litz wound!) 14 gauge impure copper wire. No repsonse.

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 02:45:40 pm
content: Yeah, he's a scammer if hereallysells them. But do we know that he would actually go through with a sale to a random person? I'm having trouble finding anyone saying they've bought one of his "products" other than intending to review them. It's still a little scammish to sell them even to a reviewer - that's what I mean by a joke gone too far, though, maybe he only pushed it that far to complete the image by having material on other websites. Even theRipoff Report articledoesn't claim that anybody everboughtthe products, unless I'm missing it. And I know these audiophools can be really silly, but I have a hard time believing that even many of them would bite. A few, yes, but only a small few.Of course, part of me suspects that he would go through with the sale just to avoid having to expose himself. In that case, I still don't think I'd truly call it a "scam", since the motivation isn't money, but rather continuing to prop up his overly intricate joke, but it would still be highly immoral. I think this is just a dude who went way too far with a joke and has trouble admitting that he lied.

author: olsenn
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 02:51:22 pm
content: That coat hanger really adds a full bodied sibilance to the upper mids of jazz

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 03:17:15 pm
content: Quote from: macboy on November 27, 2013, 02:43:13 pmI find that power cable phoolery especially entertainingly stupid. Not only is there lots of regular solid copper wire between the wall outlet and fusebox, but lots of more wire wound on the transformers. Twice, no less! (primary and secondary). But even all that pales in comparison to the length of cabling that runs between the actual power generating station and the fuse box in the first place. With more transformers inbetween, of course. All that coiled up wire surely must make the electrons dizzy, resulting in wonky soundGreetings,Chris

author: saturation
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 04:48:34 pm
content: One other item worth exploring is surge protector phoolery; the most bizarre rationale are given in audiophile settings to justify devices, but more subtle ones are used to bamboozle the general population into buying expensive surge protectors. Beware of them too.

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 04:51:49 pm
content: Quote from: mamalala on November 27, 2013, 03:17:15 pmI got an idea. We could make the audiophoolery fans pay for a power grid upgrade :-)

author: cloudscapes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 05:24:54 pm
content: Quote from: amyk on November 27, 2013, 08:00:14 ambut but but, electron spin! the electron poles have to align with the sound waves to get good basslines!science!

author: free_electron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 05:52:25 pm
content: pff. everybody knows that the best speaker is an 80 pin ribbon cable with alternating pairs in parallel. this gives the effect of two planes signal out and return path

author: tom66
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 27, 2013, 06:10:16 pm
content: Quote from: c4757p on November 27, 2013, 02:45:40 pmOr, it started as a joke, but then he found people bought them, and, well...

author: echen1024
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 04:13:20 am
content: We do understand that the fundamental problem with regular cables is that too many of the electrons fall out, right? Therefore, intensive scientific research concludes that plating the cables with ununoctium will produce some of the crispest, cleanest audio you have ever experienced!

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 06:54:40 am
content: you havent seen anything until you've seen $1000 gold plated mains power cables, or $1300 power sockets...

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 07:44:14 am
content: Quote from: peter.mitchell on November 28, 2013, 06:54:40 amI wonder if power cables made with gold cabling exist...

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 08:17:12 am
content: Quote from: Fsck on November 28, 2013, 07:44:14 amI honestly would be more surprised if they didnt.

author: Fsck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 08:28:35 am
content: Quote from: peter.mitchell on November 28, 2013, 08:17:12 amabout 7500$ish of gold per conductor for a 6ft 10awg power cord. not exactly sure about markup but if the prices of copper/silver cord markups are to be respected, that's like a 150k$ cord.

author: cloudscapes
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 05:28:10 pm
content: What benefit does gold have in electronics apart from its anti-corrosive-ness?

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 05:57:22 pm
content: Quote from: free_electron on November 27, 2013, 05:52:25 pmBest? I would not connect my speakers to anything with less than 160 pins.

author: Neilm
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 08:31:07 pm
content: Quote from: Fsck on November 28, 2013, 07:44:14 amI have seen power cable with gold contacts (both plug and socket). But that was on precision test equipment and the gold contacts were connected to the unit under test and was part of the test load. The upper limit for the test was 0.15 ohms, including all the connections and the cables.

author: peter.mitchell
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 09:54:31 pm
content: Quote from: Neilm on November 28, 2013, 08:31:07 pmI'm not saying it's worth it (because it isn't), however, what i am saying isI have seen actual gold wire power cables though; I can't find any alive links to them on the internet though, most of them 404

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 10:02:17 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on November 26, 2013, 04:09:02 pmHad the same issue on another forum with Audioquest cables (costing uptil $1000 for a network cable).At a moment someone could 100% identify blindly the CAT7 from the CAT5 cable on a Linn streaming device. Investigated it. The CAT7 was shielded and put the ungrounded network switch (and perhaps server) to ground (Linn was grounded). Anyway something not mystically was going on and explainable.Use a $2/m STP cable instead of standard UTP and you probably got the same result.

author: SLJ
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 28, 2013, 10:18:36 pm
content: Quote from: peter.mitchell on November 28, 2013, 09:54:31 pmThe sellers obviously don't want to stay in one place too long.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 01:59:44 am
content: There are apparently quite a few "audiophiles" who claim that optical is not as good as copper. But ask any communications engineer and they'll go on and on about how optical is so much better than copper...

author: lewis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 02:58:16 am
content: Look. I can't stand all this audiophilebashery. I've got 16 sets of these babies and they are truly excellent.http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=3378&customer_id=PAA0852025611857NMLIVKMGLZQYVKCE.I double-octowire my loudspeakers for the best error-free sonic transmission possible, even under seismically unstable terreloading furventure, interfacing my quasi redundant triple phase aligned Sphaeron Excalibur music-to-air transducers to my Pivetta Opera One direct coupled musical gain appliance.The heliomorphishness and diamapetholemy of even the slightest degradation of any musical nuance is thoroughly suppressed with these cables. Don't bash them, or any others, until you'veheardexperienced them for yourselves.And never use optical. The sound-to-light conversion process is ineffably inferior to allowing the pure sound signal to travel along conventional interconnect. Of course, any decent audio cable transfers sound by pure sonic vibrational conduction without going through the derogatory sound-to-electricity conversion process, but optical introduces unpredictable 'Photonic Intercombining SuperScalar entropic Distortion', or PISSeD, that can significantly colour the sound leading to loss of balance and neutrality.

author: Alexei.Polkhanov
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 02:58:48 am
content: I am a guy who, to be honest, often cannot tell a difference between mono and stereo when I hear it. I don't really like any kind of music and never owned a piece of audio equipment besides phone. I do wonder however what do I do if I have to fix or test an audio equipment? My first idea is to send clean sine wave signal through an amplifier for example and then look for extra harmonics on spectrum analyzer on the output. That will tell me if signal is distorted and thus will tell me if there is any problem. Generic spectrum analyzer starts at 100kHZ so obviously I need low freq version of one like "audio signal analyzer".And then there is noise. I assume some bad quality copper can actually introduce noise as it happen more with some types of resistors than others.Now is the part that confuses me - when someone say "I like tube amplifier because it sounds (soft, retro, deep, .... pick your favorite). Does that mean that certain types of distortions are actually good in audio equipment? Or it is all just an illusion that they have due to their own hearing problem?

author: c4757p
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 03:09:26 am
content: Quote from: Alexei.Polkhanov on November 29, 2013, 02:58:48 amWell, of course opinion plays a role. You can create an objective definition of audio quality - faithful reproduction of a recording with as little distortion as possible - and with that you can objectively measure audio quality. But obviously, if I personally feel that something sounds better with a bit of 2nd harmonic distortion, then it's perfectly valid for me to prefer amplifiers which produce that distortion.My personal opinion is that for audioplayback, I want 100% faithful reproduction. The artist who made the music already chose which harmonics should be a part of it. And formakingmusic (guitar amplifiers, etc) I want different distortion profiles depending on how I want it to sound. I rarely want a guitar amplifier to just dump the signal from the pickups to a speaker.If I listen to music through an amplifier that distorts it, and think that it sounds better, I'd call that a deficiency in the recording (again, just my personal opinion about the particular recording), not an advantage of the amplifier. Kind of like how salt itself doesn't taste good, but adding it to food can improve the taste if the cook forgot it in the kitchen...@lewis, that was a supremely beautiful string of bullshit. I applaud you.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 08:35:04 am
content: I thought only women had a use for these:http://www.referencetweaks.com/products.htm

author: manzini
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 11:10:39 am
content: Quote from: cloudscapes on November 27, 2013, 05:24:54 pm

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 01:11:46 pm
content: Quote from: NiHaoMike on November 29, 2013, 01:59:44 amIf you like to create ground loops you need copper :-)

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 01:19:40 pm
content: Quote from: lewis on November 29, 2013, 02:58:16 amHave you ever considered listening to a symphonic orchestra live? You can hire some too.

author: NiHaoMike
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 03:27:32 pm
content: Quote from: mojo-chan on November 29, 2013, 09:41:16 amThe iron powder probably makes the whole cable act as a EMI filter. It's possible (though unlikely) for it to make a difference, but any good audio stuff should have plenty of filtering to begin with.

author: lewis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 04:10:43 pm
content: Quote from: madires on November 29, 2013, 01:19:40 pmNah, my cables are much better than any orchestra. Violin strings are made of bits of cat's intestine by some bloke 200 years ago. Who wants that? Everyone knows they are a poor conductor. Pun intended. My cables are made by nude virgins in utopialand, manufactured lovingly of the finest modern materials money can buy intermixed with unicorn tears, blessed under holy sacrament by the thousand deep cryogenic treated bishops of audiophiledom. Much better!

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 07:19:07 pm
content: Like live music, and Roderick is a very nice person as well. Even had an impromptu opera 2 weeks ago when a friend of his was there and did some singing. Nust pull the video out of the phone and upload it.

author: Jon86
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 07:59:01 pm
content: http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8&products_id=21&zenid=op7u3cn3c6glj32lbgarkh6dj1

author: Zbig
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: November 29, 2013, 11:44:53 pm
content: Quote from: lewis on November 29, 2013, 02:58:16 amIs the £19,646.00 a regular price or a Black Friday deal?

author: Macbeth
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: November 30, 2013, 01:09:11 am
content: Quote from: Zbig on November 29, 2013, 11:44:53 pmThat's a bargain - I am thinking they can sell a few hundred to Syria for the kids...

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2014, 06:30:52 pm
content: audiophool (certified) wire."...with the detail and airiness of high purity silver and the warmth and mid-range smoothness of OCC copper."www.ebay.com/itm/110969874437

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2014, 06:51:57 pm
content: Quote from: saturation on November 27, 2013, 04:48:34 pmWell I dunno, but I lost two PSUs, a hard drive, and a small landfill's worth of light bulbs to shittily wired mains. Maybe a surge protector is not as stupid as you'd posit. (Though the expensive ones certainly aren't worth it.)

author: The Electrician
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 12, 2014, 07:43:08 pm
content: These have negative ESR to compensate for all the positive ESR elsewhere in your equipment:http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-BLACK-GATE-WKZ-CAPACITORS-HEART-OF-MUSE-100MF-500-550VDC-VERIFIED-IN-SPEC-/121270915320?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item1c3c4f50f8http://www.ebay.com/itm/BLACK-GATE-CAPACITOR-4700-16v-STD-5-pcs-NEW-OLD-STOCK-Audio-Note-/310838792627?pt=US_Amplifier_Parts_Components&hash=item485f6f91b3

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2014, 07:53:40 am
content: Quote from: Stonent on November 26, 2013, 04:10:30 pmHey, those are handy when you have multiple cables behind your rack!

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2014, 08:15:42 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 27, 2013, 08:36:58 amI corrected your misprint.What makes high end audio fun is that sometimes, audiophool arguments turn out to be valid audiophile arguments.More philosophical view: it has been scientifically shown, many times, that non-audio issues do affect the actual hearing sensation. When that hits, I'm not merely mistaken to believe I hear something, I actually do hear differently, although the air might move exactly the same. The brain is tangled, the different functions are not neatly isolated in their own boxes.The easiest to understand example is color TVs: They don't sound as loud and B&W; likely, because color uses more "processing power", whatever that is in a brain. But they do have better sound. Likely, the brain gets more information as a whole, and gets confused where that information came from.Now, if I sell you a thick power cord and you hear an improvement, am I a crook? Am I still a crook if I honestly think that might affect the signal somehow? Even doctors knowingly describe placebos sometimes, when those might help...

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2014, 08:11:21 pm
content: If you are charging 10x more for a placebo, than for something that is physically and verifiably better, then yes, you are a crook. Rather than try to eliminate the placebo effect in your brain (delusion), salespeople like to inflate it with more bullshit. I don't think they honestly think it'll work, they only believe how it transfers money from your wallet to theirs.

author: Sigmoid
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 13, 2014, 09:10:48 pm
content: Quote from: lewis on November 29, 2013, 04:10:43 pm"The ears, the octave monks! Unspeakable blasphemies, streak with two dropoff!"

author: lewis
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2014, 12:19:00 am
content: Whoa! I need a cup of tea now...

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: February 14, 2014, 01:02:58 am
content: I think I'm tripping...

author: timelessbeing
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2014, 05:06:11 am
content: Check out these earbuds ..."...ebony wood enclosure reproducing crisp but warm, natural sound ".

author: kolonelkadat
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2014, 10:41:46 am
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on March 04, 2014, 05:06:11 amIm not a fan of ebony as a tone wood, but I dont doubt their claims.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2014, 11:17:12 am
content: Quote from: timelessbeing on February 12, 2014, 06:30:52 pmBetter deal: same vendor, same wire, same length, same certificate and same photo, and for one week only 70% discount.http://www.ebay.com/itm/111123440617I mean, even phools need to watch their wallets.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 04, 2014, 12:05:38 pm
content: Well, bulk wire. You add your own use case. And hey, 22 sold already. So there must be a use. Maybe for wire-wrapping tube-amps?Me for example, I would use such to wire the backside of my prototype board. (only so many leftover clipped resistor leads I have) Or make jumpers on my stripboard (I actually like stripboard better then islandboard). Another 95% off and I may even buy it (except for the US$23 postage). Many arguments against audiophoolery, but "it's an incomplete component" is not one I would have expected on eevblog.

author: zapta
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 06, 2014, 03:35:16 pm
content: Quote from: mariush on November 26, 2013, 04:09:02 pmIt's an opportunity. Sell him one. ;-)

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2014, 02:00:29 am
content: Quote from: zapta on March 06, 2014, 03:35:16 pmThat reminds me ... Quite some years ago i was involved in a clubg thingy. The guy who installed the sound system was somewhat of an audiophool. Needless to say, the amps borked up (i.e. switched off) during the night, etc. The speakers he build were OK, just that he had the idea that several short pieces of audiophool grade cabling are a good idea, instead of a single, long-enough run of normal cable. But that's a different story.... Whhat this reminds me of is the use of network cable. The club was in the 4th floor. We wanted to have the sound at the entry door as well. So i took the "high end" mixer desk and put in an audio transformer, probably from the early 70's, to get a balanced signal. That i ran down through a _lot_ of CAT5 cable to the entry door, where it ended up in another transformer of the same type, and then into a simple studio amp.The sound was just fine. The guy could not believe it. We had a boatload of arguments about that. No hum, no noticable distortion, just the sound. Later on i added a second transformer to the mixer, and connected the main amps upstairs to that instead of the unbalanced crap. Plus, i swapped his patchwork of audiophool cabling with a power supply cable that was used for a ceiling crane. Perfect stuff, 7 conductors with 4 mm² each, in a flat cable, with shielding. Proper stuff for a sound system that had active crossovers and seperate amps for each band... Sure, he was _really_ pissed when i did this without telling him. But hey, the result was louder, no amps crapping out anymore, and the folks visiting the club even noticed the better sound as well...High end audiphool, my ass...Greetings,Chris

author: mariush
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2014, 02:07:27 am
content: Toms Hardware did a test recently where they brought a guy that used $2,000-5,000 audio equipment and one guy that had close to $70,000 equipment at home, and with expensive high impedance (600 ohm) headphones, those two guys couldn't determine if the sound was produced by a $2 onboard audio sound card or a $2000 external DAC.There were some minor differences, the onboard Realtek sound card wasn't as linear as those expensive ones but in practice the ears of those guys couldn't tell them apart.The test does say with cheaper headphones or amplfiers, the sound cards could be easier to distinguish.See test here:http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733.html

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2014, 02:25:12 am
content: Quote from: JuKu on February 13, 2014, 08:15:42 amI'm sure you can point us to the published papers that scientifically show that, right? Because what you wrote after that is pretty much the definition of an audiophool. If all external stuff is the same ("...air might move exactly the same..."), then what you hear differently is purely up to you. Of course here i assume that you ear is not plugged, and that it works like any other ear (including the degradation in high frequency response the older that ear gets...).Everything that influences the hearing system is to be considered an audio issue. Anything that is claimed to be a non-audio issue but still effects the result that is heard is purely imagination.Quote from: JuKu on February 13, 2014, 08:15:42 amYou may want to familiarize yourself with the changes in technology that happened between b/w and colour TV. That includes the receiver and transmitter part as well.Example: what do you think you hear on a monaural receiver when you are listeneing to a stereo transmission? The right channel, or the left channel, or both? If the latter (which you do, btw.), what do you think makes that feat possible?Quote from: JuKu on February 13, 2014, 08:15:42 amYes, and placebos are a pure effect of imagination. They have no real physical/chemical effect as far as the desired result is concerned. In other words: you "feel" what you want to, the "medicine" has absolutely no play in it. Which is the very definition of audiophoolery. Those poor sucker may _think_ that they hear a difference, but it's not there. And the folks selling that crap to them are nothing more than frauds. And those who fall for that crap, well, .... At least in medical trials the test subjects know that they may or may not get the real thing. As do all the others involved. Only very few know what is what, which is the purpose of double-blind tests.I had done an preamp circuit for a customer. There is something to be said about using a few transistors and good parts compared to a shoddy OpAmp. However, things have changed, OpAmps got much better. Anyways, the circuit itself looked OK. Later on he approached me with audiphool bollocks. Like, you know, the way you put in non-polarized (i.e. film) caps makes a difference in sound. I heavily objected to that. He was not open to any reasonable discussion. Similar arguments as what you just said. "there is more to it ...". He really wanted to tell me that it makes a difference in sound when you solder in a WIMA foil capacitor the other was round. I could have gone with that sillyness, and maybe made a lot of money. But i chose not to, i simply could not reconcile.BTW:http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/general-av-discussions/2512-speakers%3B-when-good-enough-enough-3.html#post15412Greetings,Chris

author: mamalala
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 11, 2014, 02:43:46 am
content: BTW,i can only recommend the following to everyone who cares about sound reproduction. And even more, i can recommend it to anyone who thinks he is an audiphile.Try to get into a sound production studio. Then try to get into another one. And another one. In short, try to get into as many as you can. Go to a TV station, and another one. Go to a radio station, and, you guessed it, another one. And many more of the same. Speak to the sound engineers there. Ask them how they mix the stuff to make it sound as it does.Then notice the speakers they use. And the amps. And the cabling. And the length of all that cabling. Then try to imagine what the actual artists that make the music will actually hear.In short: No matter what equipment you use, what you hear is _never_ _ever_ what the actual artist did. There is absolutely no way for anyone, except the actual artists, to say "that is how it should sound like!". And even then you only have the opinion of _one_ artist. What about a band? What does the drummer hear? What about the vocals folks? The guitarist? The base guitar player? Not to mention all the folks involved that make up an orchestra for classical music....Whenever you see/hear someone talking about how [fancy-schmancy-crapole-word-bingo] some audio system sounds, it's already clear that it is bollocks.Oh, and while at it, ask them how they make sure that every listener gets a good experience. Hint: They do stuff like listeneing to it on a mobile radio. Just so that you don't get too much bass frequencies that may upset your lousy speakers. Or too much treble that might upset your, well, lousy speakers. And that it sounds OK on a mono radio. Oh, and many studios have those loudy monitors in use. Like these bog-standard Yamaha monitors with the white "bass" speaker membrane. Lousy frequency response they have. But hey, if it sounds OK on them, you can be pretty sure that it sounds OK pretty much everywhere else.Greetings,Chris

author: Prime73
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2014, 04:20:55 am
content: I would suggest to read some stuff Nelson Pass wrote about Class A amps in particular about triode tube vs SIT (Static Induction Transistors). Basically tube amps due to a nonlinear amplification characteristic of tubes generate more second harmonics than transistors. If seems that (proven fact? - not sure) second harmonics are more pleasant to human ear than others - therefore "warm" (i.e. more pleasant) sound. I can tell one thing for sure - tube amps do sound different compare to transistor ones. However the difference very minuscule.Quote from: Alexei.Polkhanov on November 29, 2013, 02:58:48 am

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2014, 05:01:15 am
content: Quote from: Prime73 on March 11, 2014, 04:20:55 amMy understanding is that the topology of the amp has more influence on the magnitude of the harmonics than the type of device used. Transistors can be just as non-linear in their behavior.Class A / single ended = more even order, as the positive peaks of the signal tend to get compressedClass AB / push pull = more odd order, as the positive and negative peaks of the signal tend to get compressed.http://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/the-cool-sound-of-tubes/distortionOf course, there is no reason you can't design a Class AB amp that produces strong 2nd order harmonic distortion but a well designed amp of any topology shouldn't produce any audible distortion.Quote from: mamalala on March 11, 2014, 02:43:46 amSure we'll never know how the artist / audio 'engineer' intended for the recording to sound, but a low distortion reproduction system is always going to be more versatile than one that 'colours' everything played through it with it's own distortion.At the end of the day, if the audio 'engineer' mixes the track on lousy hardware and as a result it sounds horrible on my flat and low distortion reproduction system, i probably won't enjoy it and won't listen to it again. It's probably half the reason i don't often listen to mainstream music because besides the fact that it is musically garbage, it is often mixed to sound 'good' on crappy iPod earbuds and phone speakers etc.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2014, 07:43:23 am
content: I know several people that after buying a very expensive high end audio system that had a flat curve over the audio spectrum and clocks with ultra low jitter etc. etc. didn't enjoy their music anymore.They found it to sound to clean no passion. So they sold it and switched back to an old less expensive system that probably colours the mids of the audio spectrum.My understanding is that most audio is not mastered for high end flat response systems but for carsystems and mediocre hifi systems with the exclusion of special high end releases. GIGO: garbage in garbage out.

author: SeanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2014, 10:38:23 am
content: Go listen to the latest Omega Tau podcast. There you get a little on the production side of the chain.http://omegataupodcast.net/2014/02/142-making-ayreons-music/Quite interesting.

author: JuKu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2014, 10:53:30 am
content: Quote from: mamalala on March 11, 2014, 02:25:12 amOf course. In Audio Engineering Society's journals, mostly.QuoteNot necessarily, there are issues that are common to most humans. But yes, what I hear (differently or not) is always up to me. (I said this is going philosophical)QuoteYou missed the point. It is not imagination, at least in the sense the word is commonly used. Instead, for example, what you see (or how your vision processing system is loaded) affects to your hearing. Imagination and believes, too, so I guess there is a blurry line somewhere: At one end, I do genuinely hear a difference. On the other side, I get a warm and fuzzy feeling from expensive equipment and dim lights. And as noted, this is personal. I don't think many people know themselves well enough to know where on this scale a particular experience lies.QuoteSorry, I expressed this fascinating result poorly: When a sound is associated with video (as in TVs), the sound is heard differently depending if the video is B&W or color. This was actually bad news for the movie industry at the time: The sound mixers were using b&w work copies (and lots of those) which were about 5x cheaper than full color reels. But that result showed that this work procedure did not give the intended result. This is now a moot point, digital streams are full color.QuoteYou missed an opporturnity.You could have explained to him that there could be a small difference in how the cap connects to the magnetic fields depending on which side the outside foil is connected to (which I believe could be true; I wouldn't be surprised to see a small difference in parasitic inductances on each leg of the capacitor, just because of the physical differences). Then you could have offered (for money) different variations of the layout and/or build different versions of the product for listening tests. Or get a big respect saying that the magnetic field around these caps are purposely balanced and therefore, in this particular case, no difference is expected.

author: TMM
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2014, 01:41:32 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on March 11, 2014, 07:43:23 amImo non-linear distortion never made any recording sound better*. Adding some EQ to a system with a flat response never did any harm either. Of course, you get the people who are 'scared' of doing any EQ (oh no that 10degree phase shift will ruin everything!) and instead insist on using speakers which are inferior because they 'naturally' have the frequency response they are after*I'll admit it has it's place in musicproduction, e.g. guitar pedals and such but when you add non-linear distortion to the final mix (multiple instruments playing) you just get a mess of intermodulation distortion and higher order harmonics which aren't pleasant.

author: Prime73
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2014, 01:54:10 pm
content: Well, I would agree. However listen to Imagine Dragons ( in particular radioactive) - the mix is horrible in my opinion. Yet most young people do like it. Am I getting old and miss something here?Quote from: TMM on March 11, 2014, 01:41:32 pm

author: madires
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2014, 02:04:18 pm
content: Quote from: Kjelt on March 11, 2014, 07:43:23 am... and be mastered for being loud. There are the loudness wars resulting in CDs with clipping. If a CD with clipping would be considered "broken" we would have returned over 50-70% of all CDs. It's sad that the music industry cripples good recordings. Maybe it's a secret plot to resell all music again when the industry moves to 24bit ;-)

author: andtfoot
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 12, 2014, 12:31:30 pm
content: There seems to be a decent group of people who don't actually care about the musical content of what they are listening, but (I think) seem to be looking for the feeling/experience/something...?I had a recent experience when I was driving a hire car of the more fully-sik-bro variety (compared to most of the offerings; it was a Ford XR6). I was trying to figure out why all of the music I was playing sounded the same, so I pulled over and checked the settings.+10 to bass and treble, -10 on mids.... Gah.Needless to say after I fixed that up, the music was a lot more identifiable.Unfortunately, it's happened a number of times so I can't easily put it down to coincidence.

author: cybermaus
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 07:18:40 am
content: Yes, I occasionally hear those people drive by my house. You start hearing the bass way before the car is in view.Sometimes I'd like to implementthisorthis.

author: TerraHertz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 13, 2014, 07:45:05 am
content: Quote from: EEVblog on November 27, 2013, 08:36:58 amBut... most religious arguments are between two or more persons of different brand-name delusions.Even when an Atheist is arguing with a religious person, in some ways the Atheist is being delusional too. For they are assuming that it's possible to use logic to cure the sickness of programmed belief.