Super Expensive Pliers - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 04:03:17 am
content: I'm used to cheap hand tools, pliers and screwdrivers. Anyone tried one of these expensive brands and which one do you recommend for general electronic work?Knipex pliersWiha pliersCK Tools pliersBernstein pliersFACOM pliersLindstorm pliersAven pliersExcelta pliersErem pliers

author: Psi
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 04:06:33 am
content: Lindstorm make really good stuff, but i've only used there cutters, never tried their pliers

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 04:51:48 am
content: Quote from: Psi on October 15, 2013, 04:06:33 amAlso noticed that Lindstorm cutters look pretty similar to Facom cutters.

author: Kryoclasm
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 05:34:26 am
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on October 15, 2013, 04:03:17 amHaving first hand as a mechanic, I love Knipex pliers. They are made to last, and do the job best. They are expensive... pay it.As an apprentice jeweler, Lindstorm pliers are the bees-knees of small tools. You must pay one kidney for them... you will have one left maybe?

author: Balaur
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 06:49:30 am
content: Facom has several tiers of products. Most of them are very good quality (albeit expensive) but there are some that are not a good investment.The small Facom cutter pliers for electronics are fantastic. They have a lot of configurations (slim-joint, compact, long-reach, heavy-duty, pointed, slim-nose, taper nose), so some attention before buying is required. Please investigate the catalog.I would also recommend the NWS pliers with TitanFinish and SoftGrip features. Rather nice and useful all-around.Not too much love for Wiha though. Magnusson tools are generally a good surprise.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 07:01:43 am
content: Quote from: IntegratedValve on October 15, 2013, 04:03:17 amIn my experience, they are far better to use than the cheap ones. Please bear with me however on the details, as this could get a bit confusing due to rebranding.Aven and Excelta are just rebranding companies, so they produce nothing they sell. In the case of Excelta, their best cutters (5 star series), are rebranded Tronex. I own a couple of pairs of these, and they are absolutely excellent. Literally the best cutters I own.Knipex and Wiha are too expensive for what they are IMHO, and the quality isn't what I'd expect for that price level (can literally do better for less money). Take a look at the following link (http://precisiontools.wordpress.com/2011/06/09/knipex-electronics-series-pliers/) for a review of the Knipex cutters and pliers (reviewer is another member here).All the pliers I use now are from Schmitz (http://www.schmitz-zangen.de/?lang=engl). This also happens to be the actual ODM for CK Tools' offerings, and are top notch. The value is incredible as well (can't comment on the cutters as I'd already purchased those from other makers). But the same member also did a review of Schmitz's products (http://precisiontools.wordpress.com/2012/05/21/schmitz-electronics-pliers-the-holy-grail/).I also have Lindstrom cutters, and although they're decent, I wouldn't recommend them any longer unless there's something very specific you need that no one else offers. I'd put Erem over the current Spanish made versions (also own some Erem).Of all the cutters I have (Erem, Lindstrom, Tronex), I'd rate Tronex as #1, Erem as #2, and Lindstrom as #3.Hope this helps.Quote from: IntegratedValve on October 15, 2013, 04:51:48 amBoth of these brands are owned by Snap-On, and are sold under multiple brand names (cutters actually produced in Spain by Lindstrom).

author: metalphreak
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 12:07:13 pm
content: I got some Excelta side cutters off ebay a while back at a bargain price. They're normally ~$60ea and they're much better than cheap $5-10 tools.

author: Kjelt
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 02:10:07 pm
content: I am not sure what kind of pliers you are looking for but as far as I know Knipex are the somewhat heavier pliers for DIY in the house work while Erem for instance have tens of very precise pliers. Here at work we use Erem but a lot are broken because a lot of people don't know how fragile they are and do not know how to use them. They are not made to cut heavy or thick metal wires but the kind of wires of a resistor are what they are used for, depending on the type.I use them for very delicate and fragile work and they are super sharp with a very clean cut and without any hassle. But again only small electronics stuff.Other brands I have no experience with.

author: Gromitt
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 02:16:28 pm
content: I have a set of Lindström Supreme pliers that I had for about 25 years now, they are very good. At that time Lindström was made in Sweden and I think they still are. I also have a couple of Knipex and Wiha pliers and they are good to.Quote from: nanofrog on October 15, 2013, 07:01:43 amAccording to their respective webpages, Lindström is a trademark owned by Bacho who is in turn owned by SNA Europe and Facom is owned by StanleyBlack&Decker.http://www.lindstromtools.com/index.phphttp://www.facom.com/stefan

author: IntegratedValve
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 02:45:19 pm
content: Very helpful replies. Thanks.

author: quarks
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 03:51:53 pm
content: maybe this could also be worth readinghttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/cutters/msg179452/#msg179452https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/precision-screwdriver-advice/msg184469/#msg184469

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 03:53:18 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on October 15, 2013, 07:01:43 am+1 on the Tronex. they are extremely well made. I like them better than my Lindstroms also.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 04:20:24 pm
content: Quote from: robrenz on October 15, 2013, 03:53:18 pmI always have a sense of I'm going to break my Lindstrom's when I complete the cut as the handles flex that much, even on 26AWG (Rx8140; COO = Spain FWIW). Cut is good, but they just seem really fragile vs. the other brands I own.Is this just me, or do you have similar experiences with yours?Quote from: Gromitt on October 15, 2013, 02:16:28 pmSandvik was involved with Lindstrom at some point as well, and IIRC was the entity that moved production from Sweden to Spain (also seem to recall that Sandvik sold their hand tool holdings to Bahco prior to their acquisition by SNA).I do apologize for Facom (really did think they were also acquired by SNA).BTW, are they still made in France?Joints look different to me, and they do rebrand some products (rebrand the Bernstein Spanfixx vise for example;http://www.bernstein-werkzeuge.de/en/).

author: robrenz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 04:56:02 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on October 15, 2013, 04:20:24 pmThe Lindstrom I have is a Rx8152 which is a fairly beefy cutter compared to my favorite Tronex 7223 so I cant realy compare. But I like the stop screws on the Tronex which I think is a must on ultra flush cutters. A real thing of beauty is the Tronex 5071 ultra mini cutters I have for very small magnet wire. It cuts 45 AWG magnet wire (.002" over the insulation) like butter.

author: jolshefsky
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 05:37:40 pm
content: Quote from: nanofrog on October 15, 2013, 04:20:24 pmAre you sure it isn't by-design? Flex can act to reduce force and provide tactile warning. I'd take "flex" over "brittle" any day, but I do get your point.

author: nanofrog
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 05:56:46 pm
content: Quote from: robrenz on October 15, 2013, 04:56:02 pmWhat I have:Lindstrom Rx8140Erem 2422EErem 2422EBExcelta 7170E (same as Tronex 7088 <big brother of your 5071's>)Excelta Altima 7140E (same as Tronex 7111)Swanstrom S512EThe Swanstrom pair would be similar to the Rx8152, and the Erem 2422EB would be the closest to the Tronex 7223 from what I can tell (from catalogs).I agree with the set screws. My biggest issue with the Erem's is I went for the Ergo handles, and they slip around in my hands more than the foam grips of the Tronex or Swanstroms, even with the texture they have. Purely my fault for picking the wrong grips. Screws on both sides of these (supposed to allow the user to tighten them to remove joint wear from what I understand), but they really don't get in the way as much as you might expect (angle keeps the screw above the PCB). Hidden springs are nice too.Erem and Tronex have the smoothest cuts (like butter as you say), and grips really fit well. Swanstrom is very close behind, but mine are a bit worn which could explain the difference (little slop in the joint, and I twisted a Torx bit trying to tighten them up), so they don't make clean cuts on small gauge wire like they should any longer. Still just fine for larger stuff, which is what I use them for anyway so not that big of a deal. Grips are similar as Tronex, as is no screw on the bottom side of the cutter (completely flush, and construction is very similar). Decent value IMHO, as currently $45.05 on All-Spec for S512E (Tronex 7113's are going for ~$63, and Erem for ~$60). Swanstroms do run a bit larger dimensions for equivalent products though (style & cutting capacity), so that could be an issue at times.Quote from: jolshefsky on October 15, 2013, 05:37:40 pmNot sure actually, but the amount of flex cutting 26AWG makes me too nervous to try 16AWG (cutting capacity is 32 - 16AWG/ 0.2 - 1.25mm). So I don't use them all that much, and go for the Tronex ovals instead.

author: AndersAnd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 06:33:52 pm
content: I can recommend Lindström. Very expensive but top quality. I have used Lindström cutters and pliers both professionally and at home for many years.But on the other hand I haven't got much experience with many cutters and pliers in the same price range, so they might be just as good.I have used a C.K. cutter once a long time ago and can recommend them too, although I probably prefer Lindström, but the C.K was also a cheaper version than the Lindström I have.I have also used a Knipex cutter, but that wasn't a fine electronics cutter, but a larger electrician cutter. But it's much better (sharper) than the Bacho electricians cutter I also have.I have had my Lindström cutters and pliers for many years and they are still almost as good as new. But if I was to replace one of them I'm not sure I would by Lindström again, because they are quite expensive, and I think you might to find cheaper tools elsewhere in similar quality. I got a good deal when I bought my Lindström tools for home use.If for nothing else I would probably buy another brand next time I need another tool, just to try something else and see how it compares, as I've always used Lindström cutters and pliers both at work and at home.For larger cutters I have a couple of Bahcos, but I'm not impressed with those and would probably buy a large Knipex cutter next time. I also do have aone large Lindström cutter, but it's as sharp as the smaller Lindström cutters I have and I wouldn't use this for heavy duty steel cutting as it would probably soon get dull.Wiha I only know for a set of good small screwdrivers I have. Nothing to complain about there really, but it's more for larger screwdrivers where more force is applied you will notice the difference in durability between good and bad screwdrivers.Where you will really notice a huge difference is between an cheap and expensive cutter. For pliers you won't notice the difference as much. So if you don't want to spend money on a full set of pliers and cutters, spend your money on an a good cutter like Lindström and save some on the pliers instead.Butneveruse an expensive and very sharp electronics cutter to cut nails, thick steel wires etc. or you will ruin it in no time. Have another larger electricians cutter for heavy duty work. Horses for courses.If you buy German or Swedish tools like cutters, pliers, screwdrivers, saws, spanners etc. I think you generally get very high quality as a rule of thumb.Lindström, Bahco and Sandvik (top quality hand saws) are all Swedish and owned by the same company SNA Europe now:www.snaeurope.comAnd SNA Europe is the European manufacturing subsidiary of Snap-on Incorporated according to Wikipedia.Bernstein, CK Tools, Knipex, Schmitz, Wera, Wiha + more are all German top quality hand tool brands.Erem is Swiss.I am not really familiar with the last two brands you mentioned Aven and Excelta. But looking at their websites it looks like they are both American, that probably explains why they are not so well know here in Europe, where there's a lot of local quality brands, especially from Germany as I mentioned. Germany has big steel industry and long history in quality hand tools like Sweden.

author: AndersAnd
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 15, 2013, 06:46:26 pm
content: As for screwdrivers I really recommend Wera. German top quality brand, very durable and the best thing about them is the handles, especially for larger screwdrivers where you need a good grip.Wera is all I use for screwdrivers now, both professionally and at home (except for a set of small Wiha screwdrivers, which are also fine).I have had some Bahco screwdrivers too which used to be almost de facto standard for screwdrivers in Scandinavia (actually owned by the same Sandvik company as Lindström now, all Swedish brands), but I much prefer Wera and it seems they are becoming more and more popular here especially because of the handles which are really ergonomic and the best to get a good firm grip when needed. I'm not a fan of the all round Bahco screwdriver grips, but some are.For screw bits I also use Wera exclusively, Wera is more durable than any other bits and screwdrivers I have used.Wera UKhttp://www.wera-tools.co.ukWera UShttp://www-us.wera.de