Oscilloscope Purchase Advice around 600AUD - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: techboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 02:31:23 am
content: Hey guys, I am eyeing an oscilloscope. It's time to get one, and don't feel comfortable going with handheld onesSo it will be hobby/repairs kind of usage, and the last time I used one was when tube ones were dominating. Doesn't need to be a fancy one, but better for the money perhaps?I will be using it mainly when repairing staff and playing with logics, so more than 2 channels will be great. I have a Salae replica Logic analyzer, but it's annoying to use Windows software on a screen while playing with Arduinos. Sometimes you just want to check something quickly, rather than set up all on the bench each time.Plus, often I need to track analog signals. So, I am looking at these two modelsHantek MSO5202D- Old model and used but in good condition for about 600AUD. Which also seems to have a digital analyzer. Not sure if the header is still available to buy but seems to be mapping one channel to that LPT-like port. Maybe there is a way around to skip the header or build one? It is referred to as probe cable. Maybe some passives inside only?SDS-1104X-U- Brand new with 4 channels. But based on Dave's teardown it seems a bit of a cutdown model, plus the sampling rate is divided across all 4 channels. However, its a brand new and comes with 3Y warranty. Not that they fail easily unless I blow it up.Suggestions or recommendations?Thanks, G.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 02:36:19 am
content: In that price range there's a couple good options from both Siglent and Rigol (at least pretty close in price). I dislike Rigol, but many like them fine. Everybody that has a Hantek has problems, and many of them warn others not to buy Hantek.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 02:47:11 am
content: Quote from: techboy on October 24, 2023, 02:31:23 amDarn good price for the X-U.We would sell more at that price rather than full RRP where most buyers want the additional feature set in SDS1104X-E and are happy to shell out more for a scope they can grow into.For more basic use including all the decodes you would be happy with a X-U as your first DSO.

author: Muttley Snickers
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 03:57:02 am
content: Save up a bit more and get the SDS1104X-E fromAppvision, you should also consider the resale value in the future in case you decide to get something else. I wouldn't hesitate to buy an X-E second hand but wouldn't waste my money on the U version.

author: techboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 06:04:07 am
content: Thanks guys, its about 150$ extra for SDS1104X-E. Its annoying that logic analyzer is about 740$ and requires some kind of licensewhile hantek one seems to be a passive kinda extension probes box.Perhaps that is how they justify the below 1500$ price.Seems the same for the wifi, the license seems to be 75$, anyone had good luck with dongles? Read somewhere re tplink been ok.Its funny how i started with 150$ pocket one budget, passed through 400$ used ones and now heading to 700$I read about a bunch of hacks around them in the forum, but is it pretty much a locked model with these licenses? Not that I need speed hacks etc. at least atm.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 06:13:53 am
content: Those Siglents are a bit old fashioned now. The new kid on the block is the Rigol DHO800. It has 12 bit resolution for extra fine detail and touch screen UI to make it much easier to navigate and find things than menu diving using a twisty knob.You also get VESA mount, HDMI output to use a big screen, you can use it with a mouse, you get web interface to use it from your PC, etc.

author: techboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 06:32:24 am
content: Thanks, considering I got along without one for 10 years in the repair industry. Probably, chasing the new rivals is bit unnecessary for me. Having a 4 scopes, a decent speed and if I can get logic analyzer built in without passing 600 by much would be awesome.That said, looking at the Hacking Rigol 800 series topic, I much prefer devices that can be modded.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 06:41:07 am
content: Hantek is a reasonable option for half the price of Siglent and Rigol, as a mediocre scope is better than no scope.I'm not aware of any MSO for under 600AUD. Maybe you can get a good price on an older Rigol MSO?The SDS1104X-E is a great scope, but with MSO it gets into MSO5000 price level.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 06:45:17 am
content: Quote from: techboy on October 24, 2023, 06:32:24 amYou might have to forget that.Some of these 'scopes have a LA connector on the front panel but take a look at the price of the probes, they can easily be $300 USD or more.Almost as much as the 'scope itself!

author: techboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 07:05:05 am
content: I just came across this project which ads probes to LA connector of Rigol for about 50bucks. And seems to work with DHO914https://climbers.net/sbc/clone-pla2216-logic-probe-analyzer/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hacking-the-rigol-mso5000-series-oscilloscopes/2450/There we go from 600 now im heading to 1100AUDProbably worth it no? Considering more mods/hacks are around Rigols.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 07:53:36 am
content: Quote from: techboy on October 24, 2023, 07:05:05 amYes and no.Some DSO's offer zero additional features as their design and HW won't support such.Some hacks are of officially offered options while others (BW normally) are to the top model in a range.When fully informed model creep beyond budget is not necessary unless you are of a mind to quit all your other scopes to move up a bracket or 2 where the choice and feature sets push into another level of capability.First you need decide on the feature set required and a final max budget you can stretch to.Eg, an hour long chat with mate Muttley the SDS2104X Plus and the current great bundle promo has turned his head and this instead of SDS1104X-E 200 MHz design is a 500 MHz design.Ask Josh whom posted earlier what he thinks of his SDS2104X Plus....he also has SDS1104X-E.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 09:17:53 am
content: Quote from: techboy on October 24, 2023, 07:05:05 amDHO900 is quite new/buggy in the LA area right now. It'll be fixed but bear that in mind. The price of the DHO900 is also very close to the Rigol MSO5000 which is a real beast.You can do a lot of LA stuff on the ordinary 'scope though. The 4-channel 'scope is like a 4-channel logic analyzer. You can do all your serial decoding, etc., on the 4 analog channels. That's usually enough for a quick job and you can pull out your Saleae when you need more.Anyway, it seems like you have your shortlist of devices and plenty to think about.Remember: Only you know your real budget and needs so only YOU can make the final decision. :-)(and also remember there's some salesmen on here with vested interests)

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 09:28:00 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 24, 2023, 09:17:53 amQuoteAnd more experience in satisfying customers requirements with cost effective solutions than you'll ever have laddie !

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 01:22:52 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 24, 2023, 09:28:00 amYep, I'm sure you can bend ears with the best of them.OTOH you have nothing that's even close to the DHO800 in your lineup so you might not be doing people a favor.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 01:38:40 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 24, 2023, 01:22:52 pmYour comments clearly demonstrate don't know much about my industry or the way I roll.Customer always has last say when they have all the specs and facts they rightfully must have.When they return for successive purchases highly satisfied with their last it speaks clearer than some laddie online that sells his 54Z for latest greatest tablet scope only to return to the same brand and bellow how good it is.QuoteDon't want it either as seen enough here that if Rigol were to come knocking again they would get the same answer as last time. Micsig too.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 01:53:00 pm
content: I'm not selling anything, and I think Siglent is significantly better: in design, platform, and especially in support. Speaking of support,@tautechhas helped me and countless others learn about this stuff, and he's on the wrong continent to sell me anything. He's just a good person.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 02:36:19 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 24, 2023, 01:22:52 pmAnd based on what facts do you state that?On base of what metrics?Did you fully inform the person what compromises and caveats are there, if any. For which YOU take right to decide what is important or not to someone else.Difference between you and Tautech is that he actually SELLS this stuff.He has his livelihood at stake if he doesn't deliver promised stuff.Will you take Rigol scope that you recommended back from that person if they don't like it?Cause Rob will. You see, being and honest salesmen is not a derogative, it makes him more qualified to make recommendations on this topic than you. Cause that is literally his job. He will make recommendation from brands he sells, of course, but if someone asks for feature that does not exisi he will tell you it does not. He won't lie.You are not in a position to promise anything in name or Rigol. You deny to work for them and claim neutrality.If you want diversity and inclusion of Rigol DH800 in discussion, politely point out there is another scope that should be included into discussion and point OP to the threads about it. Bugs and all. Answer the questions if people ask.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 02:41:11 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 24, 2023, 02:36:19 pmThanks but I think it better we don't feed the laddie troll that has no idea the levels that you or I work at.

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 05:14:04 pm
content: Quote from: techboy on October 24, 2023, 06:04:07 amAll of the licenses on the SDS1104X-E can be hacked with keys generated by a script. That doesn't help with the hardware for the logic probes or wavegen, but you can get 200MHz bandwidth and enable WiFi that works with a $10 TP-Link TL-WN725N.If you need a logic analyzer, there are many capable USB devices available from $10 and up. Many people find that a $10 Saleae Logic (classic) clone with sigrok open source software meets their needs.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 05:33:37 pm
content: Quote from: mwb1100 on October 24, 2023, 05:14:04 pmProper MSO integration is nice thing, and gives capability that no USB LA can provide.MSO gives you 20 channel scope of which 4 are analog. And correlated in time. Only you can know if that is useful to you..For most part, you can use analog channels to decode simple serial protocols, and to verify how signal looks.But if you need to decode lots of messages (to debug something on a software side) USB LA will allow you to do that more comfortably, on a big PC screen.Despite MSO scope or not, cheap USB LA is always good idea...Simply put, for debugging SPI communication between two chips, you use scope to verify voltages and shapes of signal are OK, enable SPI decoding on scope, exchange some data, verify addresses and general communication, and then switch to USB LA to debug hundreds of messages to verify all data from sensor, your software etc..With effort and clever planning you can do lots of work that way.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 05:53:18 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on October 24, 2023, 01:38:40 pmWhat are you accusing me of?NOTbeing blinkered by brand names? I'll take that as a compliment.PS: That speaks volumes about your world view.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 05:55:37 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 24, 2023, 05:53:18 pmYou tend to have a vendetta against Siglent for some reason. 🤷

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 06:06:28 pm
content: Quote from: techboy on October 24, 2023, 02:31:23 amThe Hantek likely won't be a good buy. Other options to look at are GW Instek (GDS-1054B for example) or the MicSig TO1000 series. Both are solid performers with mature firmware that won't throw you a nasty surprise in the form of a bug. But it depends on whether those are available for your budget in your country as prices vary widely.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 06:23:51 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on October 24, 2023, 05:55:37 pmAfter owning a Micsig I'd never go back to using a stupid twisty knob as a user interface. Not with all the menu-diving modern 'scopes need.I also prefer devices with small footprints.This new Rigol seemed like the logical next step - excellent specs, more features, smaller footprint,andthe price was right.Branding played no part in the decision.(the Siglent-or-death brigade that hangs out here? That's a mystery to me)

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 06:31:26 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 24, 2023, 06:23:51 pmI'm not a brand loyalist, but I will always come back for excellent customer service, good value, good products, etc. That's been my experience with Siglent.Personally, I like the knobs. I think the combination of knobs and touchscreen is perfect. I like the idea of a 12bit (or better) scope, but I don't like that they have less knobs/physical buttons on the HD version.I'd consider a scope from another brand if there was something that I needed that my Siglent SDS2504XP didn't offer. But there isn't currently, as it's beyond my needs and skills. I do have a LeCroy HDO4104A on my wish list for the hell of it. 🤣

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 06:44:22 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 24, 2023, 05:53:18 pmName calling to deflect what I really said, is not necessary.I don't accuse you of anything. I just say that you recommend stuff for other people to buy it for their money, at their own expense (money and time) without assuming any responsibility for that. That makes you to be in much easier position, and frankly, much less responsibility.While at the same time Rob is not here incognito, and if he screws up he suffers consequences...Therefore, because of selling this stuff for living, he actually infers credibility from that.Yes he can be intense sometimes, but honesty and credibility is not lacking with him.He will yield to facts, truth and state of the matter. Don't expect him to sell Rigol.He might even smack talk about it (which, frankly, Rigol sometimes makes so easy) but will not lie about it.If DHO800 has 3 trigger modes more than SDS1104X-E than is the fact. It also have 2 less serial protocol/decode. Also fact.OTOH, you can say whatever you want, and nobody will throw a stone at your window. We don't even know what country you are in, what your name is, where you live. You could be AI for all we know (if you are, though, please let me know which company so I can buy shares, because, brilliant).And here I'm not implying that I think you are dishonest somehow. But once upon a time, I did made comment to you that you seem to get really enamored with some idea or product and then get overly optimistic and too sensitive if someone says something about it... Like we are insulting your enthusiasm or something.And you shouldn't feel like that. But your energy should be redirected from "fighting the infidels" to helping your community.And honestly, I see you are contributing quite a lot lately for DHO800. Keep up the good work. Look for the bugs. Explore, find things you think could be better. Share it on EEVBLOG in appropriate topics. Let Rigol see them.. Work towards DHO800 really become as good a product as it can be and not only a promise of one.That is generally better way to live your life in positive way..As that, really cheesy, proverb says "Don't be a part of a problem. Be part of solution".Be well.

author: KungFuJosh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 06:55:54 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 24, 2023, 06:44:22 pmI thought it was "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the solvent."

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 07:11:49 pm
content: Quote from: KungFuJosh on October 24, 2023, 06:55:54 pmThat too!!

author: mwb1100
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 08:05:13 pm
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 24, 2023, 05:33:37 pmNo doubt - I was suggesting cheap USB LA as an alternative because the SDS1104X-E is already stretching the OP's budget. And as you mention even though it lacks some useful properties of an integrated MSO, a cheap USB LA is still useful in many, many situations.On a completely separate topic, I think that if the OP can hold out a few weeks until Black Friday season my guess is that there will be good promos on low-end scopes. Not that I have any kind of inside info, I just guess that the Rigol DHO800 release might encourage some discounting to move 8-bit stock.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 08:19:20 pm
content: Quote from: techboy on October 24, 2023, 06:04:07 amThe SDS1104X-E is not perfect, but quite good despite a few flaws and somewhat aged design. Don't buy it for the LA capabilities though. The rest of the options can be hacked and you most certainly should hack them. IDK about the SDS1104X-U in that regard.I haven't tried it myself, but the Rigol DHO804 looks like a good option to me, especially if it is cheaper. It's smaller, has touch-screen, VESA100 mounting and HDMI out, in addtion to the 12-bit and other headline features. Which one is better for you I coudn't say, but my best guess is that either would suffice. Don't buy Hantek--just don't.

author: techboy
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 09:26:12 pm
content: Quote from: mwb1100 on October 24, 2023, 08:05:13 pmI was considering the same. There is no urge, I was just thinking to nicely surprise myself with a gift that I lured for about 10 years, but haven't had a dire need to use yetI remember when I got my QianLi IR camera only 3 years ago it cost me over 700$, it has clunky Windows only Software, needs to be connected over LAN, I need to weirdly move boards underneath, instead the camera over the boards. Not to mention hammers system resources on my PC just by idling. I used it a couple times over the years and it saved me in many situations. But considering that now I can get Android-connected portable one for a quarter of that price kinda hurts.Tech advancements keeps coming I assume, but cant justify catching up with the trend. SDS1104X-U might be a good choice considering its almost 200$ cheaper than Rigol, and couple years down the line, if I need something more advanced I can justify.I am dealing with USBc problems on Macboooks and Laptops all day long. USBc on the rigol as power source puts me off, especially on a VESA mount, (as Dave mentioned) curving of the cable will snap it off right away.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2023, 09:30:07 pm
content: Quote from: bdunham7 on October 24, 2023, 08:19:20 pmLike SDS1202X-E there is no additional optional functionality to hack, none, zip, nada.When Siglent via Daves local dealer (Triotest) sent him a prerelease SDS1102X-E for review and he sniffed the boot logging and discovered a 200 MHz hack, Siglent responded with only releasing SDS1202X-E to the west.AFAIK Dave now has the only SDS1102X-E in the west.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2023, 03:36:19 am
content: Quote from: 2N3055 on October 24, 2023, 06:44:22 pmWere you even mentioned in there???Quote from: 2N3055 on October 24, 2023, 06:44:22 pmThe DHO800 hacks are still being developed.It's easy to make it think it's a DHO900 and enable those missing protocols if you need them. The jury is still out on whether they can be enabled on a device that still believes it's a DHO800.eg. 50MPts memory isn't an official option for the 800 series but mine has it unlocked since a few hours ago. I also have double bandwidth (150MHz measured) over the standard DHO804.

author: 2N3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2023, 07:52:57 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 25, 2023, 03:36:19 amGood info.I'm not into hacking personally so I wouldn't know.Just a note, all scopes have BW larger than specced.Old DS1104Z had 130MHz BW, SDS1104X-E has some 140 MHz BW, SDS2104X+has some 170 MHz BW.Specified BW is more like worst case scenario across all possible cases and a hefty security margin.Just a note that BW estimation using fast edges on signal and measuring risetime is not accurate or reliable because of shape of AA filter response.It has to be established by using accurate amplitude signal generator and establishing the -3 dB point.With that said, too large a BW with insufficient sampling rate is also not good. Any device will be a compromise.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2023, 01:33:03 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on October 25, 2023, 03:36:19 amUpdate: Today it's 200MHz bandwidth on a DHO804.

author: Caliaxy
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2023, 05:59:18 pm
content: A few words about Hantek MSO5202D.Despite what everybody says about Hantek, this model is actually quite nice, if all you want is something better than a Tektronix TDS210: same great interface, very same button location but higher bandwidth, nicer screen (color!) and digital inputs. I have one, which I bought new a few years ago for about $170. As a general bench oscilloscope it is better than any handheld Owon HDS you might get for the same price (in terms of interface/usage; not so if you want portability, of course).Be aware though thatit does not have any LA capabilities(at least mine doesn’t). Sure, you can display digital signals synchronized with the analog output of a DAC (for example), but if you want any decoding you have to do iten papel, with your favorite pencil.Just saying.

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2023, 06:48:12 pm
content: Quote from: Caliaxy on October 25, 2023, 05:59:18 pmA word of caution: Where the Hantek does not seem to go beyond the TDS210 is the fact thatit does not have intensity grading. This display feature has become standard in entry-level oscilloscopes starting nearly 10 years ago, and I would not buy any digital scope, used or new, that does not have it.Intensity grading shows frequently drawn traces in brighter hues than infrequent ones, similar to a cathode ray oscilloscope, while still showing the infrequent traces more clearly than a CRO. With the simple on/off pixels supported in the first generation of DSOs, you lose this important information. This makes it very difficult to recognize outliers vs. typical signals, and may flood the display with bright pixels hiding relevant information "underneath".The Rigol DS1000Z and Siglent SDS1000X-E series, which were mentioned a few times in this thread, both support intensity grading, as do other recent scopes in their price range. The new DHO800 series of course has it too.

author: bdunham7
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 25, 2023, 08:29:22 pm
content: Quote from: ebastler on October 25, 2023, 06:48:12 pmI'll agree and add that if you want intensity grading, DSOs (at least entry-level ones) aren't the same as and arguably not as good as CROs in this regard, but for many situtations intensitycolorgrading may be far superior. This really shows up when you have really infrequent variations on a signal or very complex variations mixed in.