Analog Discovery 3 or budget bench setup - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / testgear

author: hao004
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 01:59:18 pm
content: I am a sophomore EE student and I am interested in experimenting with electronics circuits, particularly amplifier circuits and applications. Should I get the Analog Discovery 3 with student discount ($250) or a budget bench setup consisting of Hantek DSO2D10 ($150, being aware of the potential freezing issues) and Korad KA3005D ($50 from taobao)? I would like to start small first with a budget of $250 and see what I am really interested in down the road.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 02:35:37 pm
content: You would need a power supply regardless. AD3 power supply is very limited, I would not rely on it as a main supply.Otherwise, AD3 is a good value. But if you can get AD2 cheaper, I would consider that too, there are not a whole lot of changes in AD3.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 02:45:11 pm
content: The Analog Discovery devices are very good for simple lab experiments, but I wouldn't use them for anything with a high voltage/current/power.You may decide you also need a simple power supply, e.g. dual voltages and/or higher voltages.Make sure you also understand the maths behind what you are building. When interviewing candidates I wanted to see (1) theoretical knowledge (2) practical demonstration of theory (3) going beyond the course's requirements. The last requires you to set difficult-but-achievable objectives, do them, be able to state what surprised you and what you would do differently next time.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 03:02:10 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 18, 2024, 02:45:11 pmI see a lot of emphasis on intuitive knowledge for beginners. I wasted a lot of time learning "intuitively" looking at videos, non-rigurous books or posts, etc. In my experience math modelling istheway of building theoretical intuition. Of course, you then need to apply it.The Analog Discovery is a great device, and if you are into programming it can be expanded a lot. "The Stuff Made" youtube channel has a really good impedance analyzer design.I really like my AD2, but you have to know its limitations. You can get quite far using it as an oscilloscope and signal generator (with the BNC breakout board), it has good XY mode, bode plots, good FFT, basic logic analyzer and digital pattern generator, and VERY limited bipolar PSU.As much as I like it, there is no way around getting one or two DMMs and a standalone PSU.EDITs: a few typos.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 03:46:02 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on June 18, 2024, 03:02:10 pmJust so. Theory and practice are complementary, and both are required forusefulintuition.Theory without practice is mental masturbation.Practice without theory is blind fumbling.Both are necessary, neither is sufficient.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 03:49:52 pm
content: For student work/learning, I'll recommend to buy the Analog Discovery. It has all in one, oscilloscope, generator, power supply, but what's more important is that it has tons of free classes, experiments and tutorials, with software that can control all the instruments in an intuitive way. Plus, it is small and portable, you can even take it with you at school if you want, find a laptop and experiment with other classmates. When learning you don't want the hassle of extra cabling, learning SCPI or other cumbersome tool to run an experiment, and so on. An analog discovery is very easy to learn and handle, and has a very versatile tool.With classic/standalone instruments, you don't get any of the above advantages, particular with the very cheap instruments. You want to focus on learning electronics, not on dealing with the pitfalls of very cheap/unreliable standalone instruments. If you buy cheap standalone instruments, it will be a waste of money, because in that budget you can only find very unreliable instruments, so you'll end up buying again something more expensive.There is no way to buy a good enough oscilloscope+generator+power supply for the money of an Analog Discovery, particularly the one with student discount.An Analog Discovery is the best choice for learning, and it finds its use even in a fully equipped EE labs. There are plenty of measurements and experiments that are much easier to run on an Analog Discovery than on standalone lab instruments.Another alternative to Digilent's Analog Discovery might be the similar all-in-one learning kit from Analog Devices' "ADALM" series, I think it's called ADALM2000https://www.analog.com/en/resources/evaluation-hardware-and-software/evaluation-boards-kits/adalm2000.html#eb-overview, not sure which one is the latest version. ADALM2000 is also very good for learning electronics, has a lot of free tutorials/experiments/classes from the ADI website, but I think it is less widespread than Analog Discovery, not sure which wins.I remember ADALM being cheaper than Analog Discovery, but I didn't check neither of the two protucts since some years ago, not sure which one would be better. Both were designed mainly as all-in-one learning platforms for students. Both have plenty of free learning classes, with experiments and examples designed for that particular kind of all-in-one EE lab.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 03:59:02 pm
content: The Analog Discovery has a lot of limitations but it's a good all-round device. It will teach you a LOT more than a Hantek, especially with the signal generator.Does that AD you're looking at come with the BNC breakout board? Youneedone of those.(Also 3D-print the case for it - the BNC is a bit floppy,https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3070779)Downsides: The AD software is powerful but can be a bit clunky. Physical knobs and controls are good. It's not great down at the mV range)As others have noted, you'll still need a multimeter and power supply. You don'tnecessarilyneed a bench supply right away though, most things are either 12V, 5V, or 3.3V and you can use an old PC power supply from a dumpster for that. The only thing you won't get is current-limiting.(nb. The ability to dial a voltage is maybe the least important feature of a bench power supply, current limiting is way more important)

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 04:02:37 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 18, 2024, 03:49:52 pmThe power of the Analog Discovery is in the software, not the device itself. I don't know how the ADALM measures up in that regard.nb. You can use the Analog Discovery software for free with your PC sound card (minus the digital parts, obviously)

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 04:02:52 pm
content: The ADALM2000 is quite a bit cheaper, and I think it is used on the "Real Analog" course. The software is miles behind of the Analog Discovery though.At the end of the day they are just an FPGA with a bit of interfacing circuitry, the software is the real product there.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 04:13:26 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 18, 2024, 04:02:37 pmThat plus the ADC/DAC resolution, which is much better than low-end 8-bit scopes.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 04:16:52 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 18, 2024, 03:59:02 pmThe Hantek also has an AWG.But it is not really about the brand of the benchtop scope, but aboutStandalone vs. PC based.Bandwidth/sampling rate vs. vertical resolution.1GS/s vs 125MS/s150MHz vs 30MHz (with BNC)8bit vs 14bit.These are simply different types of devices, regardless of whether it is an expensive or cheap benchtop scope.

author: nctnico
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 04:26:32 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on June 18, 2024, 03:02:10 pmVery true! Once the quick calculations are done, simulating a circuit is also very insightful because it is much easier to see voltage and current waveforms than in a real circuit.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 05:21:36 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 18, 2024, 04:02:37 pmA couple of years ago I've looked at both, and they were about the same. I remember Analog Discovery to be richer in features, but both have all that is needed to run their classes and tutorials. Both have additional functionalities like Spectrum Analyzer, Bode Plots, RLC measurement, DMM, etc. Both have Python, C, LabVIEW, Octave/Matlab, etc. libraries for automation.I do not own any of these, and only looked briefly at the software, out of curiosity. Can not really say if it's a big difference in usability or not. At a first look they seemed both OK. I bet there are plenty of reviews out there to decide which one to buy.I think both platforms have student discount, and sometimes promotions and/or discount coupons. Analog Devices also sells a kit of components with a breadboard and wires (the kit is a separate buy) to use for their classes:https://www.analog.com/en/resources/evaluation-hardware-and-software/evaluation-boards-kits/eval-adalp2000.html. The kit has most representative types of opamps from Analog Devices, some transistors, sensors, breadboard wires and such, to complete the classes posted on their StudentZone:https://www.analog.com/en/resources/analog-dialogue/studentzone/studentzone-june-2024.html(note there are many more other explained experiments).I remember some similar components kit from Digilent, too, but I don't recall the name.No matter which board, or kit or discrete components will be used, I would recommend first to do the labs/classes from own school, then from the manufacturer's website. YouTube videos and other blogs might be more time consuming, and might be of a questionable quality. As a beginner, it is hard to tell which resource worth the time, and which doesn't.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 06:13:41 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 18, 2024, 05:21:36 pmYou are being generous. Most yooootooob videos are "talking heads" full of ums and ahs. They do little more than boost the ego of the creator. Very few have moving content that is necessary. Most would be better written as a blog. There are, of course, exceptions.Major problem: you can't speedily determine which videos are worth your time (1%) and which are a waste of your life (99%). With written content it is easy to skip and speed read to find the good 1%.TheWith so much material available now, determining which 1% to look at is a key skill.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 06:45:54 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 18, 2024, 03:49:52 pmWhat is the difference between a reliable and an unreliable instrument?What does that mean exactly? Can it be defined / quantified or is it more of a feeling?How can I test if my scope is "unreliable"?Thank you!

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 06:51:33 pm
content: I find the Analog Discovery far too expensive for what it delivers. For that price you can buy a real oscilloscope with GHz sample rate and two channels. It's power supply (max 5V) is also quite limiting for analog stuff. Something like 15V 200mA would have been much more suitable for generic analog stuff. I was once interested in it, but I would never pay over EUR100 for it. It may be a suitable thing for if you really like it or need it. Maybe you don't have room for bigger test equipment, or you need the PC connection.For a power supply, if DIY has always been, and still is a good option if you are on the intersection of low budget and starting with electronics. DIY power supply can be as simple as an LM317 with a potentiometer, or design something with opamps and current amplification / buffer & limiting. This is a good opportunity to learn about control loops and stability.If you're doing anything digital, then also buy one of those USD10 Logic analyzers (Saleaeaea clone) and use them with Sigrok / Pulseview. With 8 channels and up to 24Msps (for a few channels) you can look at anything from a few flipflops to I2C, SPI and around 100 other digital protocols.

author: Doctorandus_P
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 07:08:50 pm
content: I think I like the "Expeyes". It's more limited than the analog discovery, but capable enough to learn about electronics and the design is (mostly?) open so you can use it as a basis to make your own variant. And with a price of USD 80 it's also almost cheap enough to buy it "just for fun".https://expeyes.in/https://www.tindie.com/products/CSparkResearch/expeyes-17-your-labhome/Another affordable / fun instrument is the totem mini lab board:https://totemmaker.net/product/mini-lab-labboard/

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 07:13:52 pm
content: Quote from: Doctorandus_P on June 18, 2024, 06:51:33 pmYou seem to ignore the dual AWG and pattern generator, and the software that combines them to make spectrum analysers, network analysers, etc. And you also have the ability to script new tools.Example: when playing around with an N-path filter, the only other instrument I used was a 15V PSU. To demonstrate the bandpass frequency response with a Q of 15000 and roll off rate of 140000dB/decade(!), I used the pattern generator to drive the switches the AWG+scope to sweep the frequency and generate the transfer function. If I FM modulated the input frequency by a few Hz, it was amusing to watch the IQ output rotate in one direction, stop, and rotate in the other direction.When I first did that in 1980, it required a benchful of equipment, and the result was nowhere near as explicit.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 07:16:37 pm
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on June 18, 2024, 06:45:54 pmThe OP was mentioning an oscilloscope that sometimes freezes. Most common problems are because of firmware bugs. May be as well because bad design/manufacture of the hardware. Usually the lower the price, the less quality is expected. This is a thumb rule for any product.Hard to quantify or to test that. Usually time will tell. I don't know what type/model/brand of instruments you were asking about how to test their reliability. If yours don't show problems, that's great!

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 07:51:34 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 18, 2024, 07:16:37 pmI'm talking about the scope that the OP is mentioning.With the current firmware, it does not freeze here.The OP only knows about the problem from hearsay (or reading the forum), as he doesn't (yet) own the device.Many people "know" a lot only from hearsay or they are only interested in bashing anyway.I don't think general bashing of cheap devices is a good thing.As with everything, a product can be good and reasonably reliable for a certain price without having all the features and performance of more expensive devices.For many people, a Dacia Sandero is good enough. Why should you badmouth it? Because there are better cars? That doesn't make sense to me.

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 08:01:06 pm
content: Hello,an Analog Discovery with a breadboard is a small laboratory that is very suitable for learning. An Analog Discovery 2 is cheaper and can do almost as much as the Analog Discovery 3.Best regardsegonotto

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 11:25:51 pm
content: I think there is a difference between "... very suitable for learning..." and "bench setup to do actual engineering" that needs to be expanded on.I've had a unit from the Analog Discovery1 days, and I agree it's "very suitable for learning". But it's quite inappropriate for most actual work.If it's something you just need for a class, then go for it (short term). If you don't plan on doing any real design work at the bench and just want to play, then go for it (short term). If you plan on being an engineer that will spend any amount of time at the bench doing actual work (long term), then you can still get an Analog Discovery but expect to outgrow it essentially immediately.Unless you go straight into something specialized like RF, a basic bench setup of DHO800 + DP832 + DG1000Z (or Siglent equivalent), while not a prestigious as a Keysight or Tek is enough to be a real engineer for quite some time.

author: Vertamps
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: June 18, 2024, 11:55:39 pm
content: Buy used: Multi-meter, Oscilloscope, bench power supply.Locally: FB market place or Craigslist, alternatively ebay is fantastic even with higher shipping prices these days.You could get a cheap' new all in one Multi-meter/Oscilloscope, but it not as enjoyable and i don't really like those. Get a 4.5 digit bench meter, 5.5 digit if you want to spend the $100+. An old 1980's 3.5 digit Fluke hand held is fine as well, we use them at work. > Old Keithley 4.5-5.5 digit from $30 - $80. Hunt for a functional scope, $45-$100. Extra cost are: Soldering Iron, Wire strippers/Cutters, tweezers. Pull electronics apart from the garbage if you don't want to order parts.

author: ArdWar
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 02:23:22 am
content: Analog Discovery are excellent tool for learning indeed. Especially its powerful charting and post processing. Some of them gives you capability only available on thousand bucks equipment. Heck, its decidedly weak supply can be a selling point for learners to limit them to something slightly stupid instead of something monumentally stupid.However depends on your course/career path it can quickly get past its usefulness. One glaring point is its lack of robust protection. Probing around while it is direct connected to your PC/laptop can be unsettling sometimes. Not a problem if you keep doing low frequency small signal designs, but less useful when doing SMPS design for example. Often as an extra upgrade. Yes I'm still salty on why curve tracing didn't come standard on K2461

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 07:47:41 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on June 18, 2024, 11:25:51 pmAs a full bench setup, it really is only suitable for learning. The points, AFAIK, are (1) the OP is actually studying right now, and (2), the Analog Discovery keeps its usefulness even with a full bench.Admittedly, it depends on the type of work you do, but as an example, I know of a design engineer currently working on EV battery charging circuitry (the circuitry that goes inside the car) and the tool he uses the most, by far, is the Analog Discovery. Not necessarily the Waveforms features, but the ones he programs.Of course, they have oscilloscopes, expensive probes, PSUs (huge ones at that) and a lot of other equipment, but the little AD still gets a lot of use in a professional environment.So, yeah, I don't think it's a bad option with the stated budget, as long as the OP is aware of the limitations. If he wants a full lab, he will have to buy it later while keeping an extremely versatile tool.

author: RAPo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 09:56:57 am
content: I think it would help if the OP described in somewhat more detail the elements of her/his curriculum.But you have to start somewhere in order to follow the course so you have to check if the AD is "enough for the course."As indicated above, complement it with a DMM and PS, and be prepared to write off the AD in one or two years and step up the ladder.I have an AD3 and a well-equipped bench. The bench devices get more use than the AD3, but the pattern generator and impedance analyzer for low frequencies from the AD3 are very useful.

author: hao004
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 02:33:20 pm
content: Quote from: RAPo on June 19, 2024, 09:56:57 amThanks for the replies! Actually we now have completed quite a number of labs that involved the use of equipment like oscilloscopes, signal generators etc on basics such as diodes, BJTs, op-amps, attenuators, impedance matching circuits, filters and oscillators. The remaining electronic courses are RF communication, DSP, microcontrollers and some electives. The reason I am looking for a test setup is to experiment on other circuits that were not covered in labs like Class A amplifiers and also have some side projects to strengthen my practical skills and to able to design actual hardware instead of just being able to do well on exams.

author: Grandchuck
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 03:20:47 pm
content: I suggest you explore REW (https://www.roomeqwizard.com/) when you get to Class A and THD investigations.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 04:09:06 pm
content: Quote from: hao004 on June 19, 2024, 02:33:20 pmYou already have been working on "actual hardware", so that is not a useful discriminant.Analogue RF is a different world completely, e.g. scopes aren't much use and spectrum analysers become more useful. Important exception: SDR.Class A amplifiers may or may not be "new circuits", depending on frequency and amplitude. For measuring distortion, consider specialised instruments like a Keithley 2015 THD.Don't forget that probes become part of the circuit being tested. It is beneficial to know the differentclassesof probe, why they exist, and where they need to be used.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 04:09:56 pm
content: Quote from: hao004 on June 19, 2024, 02:33:20 pmIf that is the main intent, I would not recommend any more an educational devboard like Analog Discovery or Adalm2000.Would be better to have lab instruments. If the budget is very tight, maybe build the more simple ones, like power supply, a soldering station, a low distortion audio generator, and so on.Can not say which instruments/brand/model to buy, it's up to your budget. Keep in mind that most DSO these days have the same hardware inside (for a given series of products), and all the additional software features like extra bandwidth, memory points, logic decoders, etc., can be easily unlocked later.If I were to start now a new EE lab, I would save money until I'll have enough to buy a 4 channels 12 bits DSO, probably a Siglent. That's a fully featured professional oscilloscope. Though, each time a question like "what oscilloscope to buy" pops up on this forum, the pros and cons debates tend to never end so I won't insist why I would prefer that one.

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 04:22:06 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 19, 2024, 04:09:56 pmI disagree, unless you can enumerate why an AD isinsufficient, plus why a set of lab instruments isnecessary, plus how much of their time it will take to buyand learn to usethose instruments.Personally I doubt that would make a student much more employable. One year of experience repeated twice does not equal two years of experience! Ditto learning two scopes' foibles.Any decent employer will be impressed that theydid more than necessarycan say what they would do better next timecan say what they weren't able to do because of the equipment limitationsand even more impressed if they then found a way to work around the limitationsand will be prepared to train them to use whatever equipment the employer needs them to use on the next project.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 04:49:39 pm
content: Looks to me like the OP already knows the basics, and now would like to rather have an EE lab. At about the same price as an AD without discount, one can buy instead a Siglent SDS804X HD, and unlock it. That DSO will be a tool that will serve any EE lab for many years to come.I didn't compare them side by side, but the new 12bits DSOs seems to be way more capable than an Analog Discovery (thinking of this thread in particular:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds800x-hd-review-demonstration-thread/)

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 06:29:31 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 19, 2024, 04:49:39 pmHello,I don't think you can compare the two.Suppose the OP wants to try a Gilbert Cell. With an AD and a breadboard and the necessary components, he can do his experiments.He can't do that with an SDS804X HD because he doesn't have a power supply, he doesn't have two function generators, but he has a nice scope.The AD is a small laboratory and not just a scope, and the differential inputs are also very practical.Best regardsegonottoPS: An AD and an SDS804X HD and a power supply would be ideal, but that costs more than $250

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 06:43:00 pm
content: For a Gilbert cell, a phone charger (or just a USB cable) can be the power supply, and a sound card can be the dual channel generator. Then the oscilloscope can be used to visualize the signals.

author: MiroS
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 07:01:09 pm
content: Quote from: hao004 on June 18, 2024, 01:59:18 pmInvest your time and money in math, forget about the iron. LTspice is more than you really need at that stage of eduction, use labs of your university ...

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 07:29:08 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 19, 2024, 06:43:00 pmHello,Good. But next he wants to check the frequency response of an AD620. For this he needs a dual power supply and a higher frequency than a sound card delivers. No problem with an AD.Best regardsegonotto

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 08:45:15 pm
content: Minimum power supply for AD620 is ±2.3 Vhttps://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD620.pdfTake 4xAA batteries to get +/-V, or pull out the phone battery and add it in series with the USB charger to make a +5/-4V supply, then use the oscilloscope's generator to display the frequency response (the oscilloscope has an internal generator, and can display Bode plots):Bode plot fromhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sds800x-hd-review-demonstration-thread/msg5335361/#msg5335361

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 09:26:22 pm
content: The SDS800X-HD doesn't have an internal generator. You can control Siglent brand AWGs or buy the usb generator. There is a python script to control AWGs from a different brand, but it's still an additional expense.Internal generators on Siglent oscilloscopes begin with the 2000 series, which start at the price of a full basic lab.

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 09:28:54 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 19, 2024, 08:45:15 pmHello,the SDS804X HD does not have a built-in generator. You have to buy one separately. It costs more than half the price of an AD3 Akademisch.What I'm getting at is that the AD is just a complete little easy-to-use lab. You can do everything differently, but it costs extra effort and extra money.The next application I could mention is the Curve Tracer. Or Data Logger or Logic Analyzer or Pattern Generator or Impedance Analyzer.Best regardsegonotto

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 10:17:20 pm
content: Quote from: egonotto on June 19, 2024, 09:28:54 pmThe generator exists, just that it is software-locked, but there are unlocks:https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds804x-hd-same-upgrade-scripts/

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 10:28:41 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 19, 2024, 10:17:20 pmNot for Bode plots < permanent use for this feature without any need for licensing.

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 10:45:16 pm
content: I might have misunderstood.Does the SDS804X HD includes the hardware required for Bode plots, or not?

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 10:46:46 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on June 19, 2024, 10:28:41 pmHello,then why is there an external Siglent SAG1021I?And how does the signal get out? There is only one BNC socket at the back and this is for Auxiliary Out and at the front there are only the four inputs.Best regardsegonotto

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 10:51:51 pm
content: Quote from: RoGeorge on June 19, 2024, 10:45:16 pmHello,no.Best regardsegonotto

author: RoGeorge
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 19, 2024, 11:02:38 pm
content: Indeed. My mistake, sorry.It's the Rigol DHO900S which has the AWG hardware included, but it is more expensive than an SDS800.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 07:51:54 am
content: DHO800 or SDS800X HD are actually off-topic in this thread.The OP is talking about $250 for Scope with AWG + power supplyORAD3.The devices mentioned cost twice or three times that.As I mentioned above, it's really about the question:Benchtop scope with AWG + power supplyORAD3.It is true that only the Hantek fits into this budget, but it is not really primarily about the manufacturer.You may want something "better" than the Hantek at some point, but you may want a benchtop scope and a "real" power supply relatively soon after buying an AD3.Nothing wrong with the AD3, that's just a guess on my part.

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 08:15:13 am
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on June 20, 2024, 07:51:54 amStrongly disagree.SDS802X HD is $ 339 and topic includes the words: or budget bench setup

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 08:30:23 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 20, 2024, 08:15:13 amThe OP's original proposal included the power supply and the AWG.The OP says:Quote from: hao004 on June 18, 2024, 01:59:18 pmSo for me, $339 + cost of power supply + cost of AWG is clearly off-topic and also not suitable for comparison with the AD3.

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 08:36:55 am
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on June 20, 2024, 07:51:54 amI have a rigol 1104z and an AD2. I'm still a student, but i do freelance repair and electronics design on the side. In my case, unless what i'm working on involves very low amplitude or frequencies above 20MHz, I use my AD2 most of the time, so even having a bench scope at hand, the AD2 sees more use in my bench. Of couse, everyone has different preferences when it comes to user interface or just the feel of turning the knobs/pushing the buttons in a standalone instrument, but when it comes to the capabilities of the instrument, the scope in particular, other than for those things i mentioned before (low amplitude, high frequency) what are really the downsides of the AD2? the only thing i can think of is the low waveform update rate, but even some instruments in the 2k$+ price range (tek series 2) exist with slow waveform update rate.---End response to Aldo22There's a lot of professional work that can be done within the bandwidth and vertical sensitivity of the AD3, and this is just about the scope "part" of the instrument. The add-on boards expand its functionality significantly, and you don't really need them, you can make your own impedance analyzer board, curve tracer board, and even your own specific purpose boards according t your needs.You can also do Bode plots, and the differential inputs of the scope come in handy in all sorts of situations. for example, a while ago i took part in a contest by element14 about flyback transformers, and the AD2 made measuring the transformers very easy, and the differential inputs allowed me to measure both input and output current of the flyback converter, with the same instrument, which allowed me to show them time correlated which helped me better demonstrate the working principle than i would have been able to with ground-referenced single ended channels in a standalone 2 channel scope.I think another significant thing to consider (if you care about stuff like this) is the user experience. If the options are an AD3 or a low cost scope, unless you have a strong preference for physical knobs and buttons, the experience of using the AD3's software "waveforme" is likely to feel a lot better than using a sub 200$ scope as it is intuitively laid out, very responsive, and it also has that "professional" feel to it, which to be fair can be a subjective feel, but most people have described low cost standalone scopes as having a very rough or unpolished "feel" to them. I think this part is an important consideration as having tools that don't feel good to use might result in the person not using that tool unless they have to, which could turn a fun hobby like electronics into more of a chore, OP may not care at all about this, so there's that.What i would do, having that money right now, and needing/wanting a home lab right now, is try to get a used AD2 instead of the AD3,a bench power supply(actually, i would build my own power supply. I did that as a project for a class years ago, and used that DIY supply for years until i got a "real" bench power supply) and a multimeter, then use that setup, and while that setup is being put to use, also start saving for a nice 4 channel standalone bench oscilloscope in the 400$ range like the siglent or rigol 12 bit offerings

author: tautech
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 08:40:15 am
content: Quote from: Aldo22 on June 20, 2024, 08:30:23 amSure, hobble the OP with equipment that will only ever get him so far.......

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 08:52:54 am
content: Quote from: Anthocyanina on June 20, 2024, 08:36:55 amI agree, mostly. I would be wary of buying an used Analog Discovery 2 unless heavily discounted, as you don't know how the main connector and micro-USB were taken care of. The USB connector is filmsy, and the breakout boards can put a lot of stress on the connector if used carelessly.I say this having bought my AD2 used, but the prices I'm seeing right now on used ones are discounts mostly WRT the regular price, not the academic one. Between a $200-220 used AD2 and a $250 new AD3, I know I would buy the latter.In any case, you'll need to add $40-$50 for the BNC breakout board, a couple cheap probes, and some kind of BNC to alligator clips or similar to use the AWG

author: egonotto
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 08:59:07 am
content: Hello,I find working with a breadboard very useful, so BNC connections are more cumbersome.Best regardsegonotto

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 09:01:55 am
content: Quote from: tautech on June 20, 2024, 08:40:15 amIt's just not the answer to the OP's question.If the OP wanted to spend $400, he could buy an AD3ANDa Hantek. So the whole thread would be moot.

author: Anthocyanina
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 09:07:54 am
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on June 20, 2024, 08:52:54 amoooh, wow, yes, they are pretty expensive used on ebay right now. Yeah, i would get it used if it was for 150$ and yes, if the seller could prove the connectors are in good shape, I didn't think of that when recommending used, good point!

author: Smokey
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 09:39:40 am
content: Your bench gear is an investment in tools of your trade. Any old timer will be able to tell you that being able to afford a solid bench worth of full featured equipment for around $800 is a damn miracle compared to what it used to cost to put that together before the Rigols and Siglents came along.And don't get Hantek stuff. At least not for the scope. Every time I've touched something of that grade it just feels cheap and buggy. If you cheap out that much it will end up in the drawer next to the Analog Discovery way faster than you would want.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 10:29:40 am
content: Quote from: Smokey on June 20, 2024, 09:39:40 amItIScheap! And it's good for the price. Just don't pay too much for it!I paid CHF 125.- shipped for my DSO2C10 (about $130.- at the time)The price is ridiculous. Even if you're not happy with it, it's not worth getting upset about it. You didn't lose much money.Maybe the AWG alone is worth the price.It's a usable first scope and of course you'll eventually buy a "better" one once you know your needs.In any case, mine is not in the drawer yet.A product just has to be worth its price.If it was at the level of Siglent or Rigol for that price, Siglent and Rigol would have gone bankrupt.A Siglent/Rigol is perhaps 10 times better than a DSO2000, but a DSO2000 is 1000 times better than no scope at all.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 11:13:41 am
content: I wouldn't fret too much about these ending up in a drawer.The Siglent is a great option for $400, and probably the better choice right now for a low cost but fully featured oscilloscope. If you had a $600 budget, I would probably buy that scope and a cheap/used PSU, DMM and soldering iron. Then save for a cheap Feeltech or Uni-T AWG.With your budget, I'd say the Analog Discovery is the least likely to end up in a drawer when (if) you upgrade your lab. Don't be too impatient, you'll get there, and components, prototyping boards, consumables, and cabling really do add up.As for the HANTEK, it's actually more capable generally speaking than an old CRO, and you can get it often cheaper than a working analog 'scope. I don't have it, so cannot recommend it, but I doubt is as bad as people paint it.An analog oscilloscope might be a good option if you'd like the puzzle of a repair and find one for peanuts. I was defeated by a tek 466 with HV problems, and a more modern Hameg, and then too budget-strained by a Tek 2465 which I troubleshot correctly. Take that for what you will, but $100 on an old boat anchor might very well leave you without oscilloscope and $100 poorer.In any case, the AD3 is a real tool, actually useful, and will remain as such within it's bandwidth and input limitations. It's not a direct competitor to the newer Rigol and Siglent lineups.The third option presented by some other users is also valid: save for standalone, fully featured bench tools from recognized brands. It's your choice at the end of the day, but I would personally get the Analog Discovery unless you can gather $800 in a reasonably short term to get a basic bench.

author: hfleming
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 11:26:47 am
content: Let us see… as a starter, the AD2/3 gives you the following instruments :1) Oscilloscope2) AGW3) Spectrum Analyzer4) Network Analyzer5) Impedance Analyzer6) Logic Analyzer7) Pattern GeneratorOf course, it is limited, but more than adequate for learning electronics. Thereafter you can start by adding the basics, like a decent multimeter and PSU. After you decide in which field you want to go in, more epecialized equipment applicable to that field. Even though I have a lot of test-equipment, my AD2 is still connected to my development PC and find it useful for all sorts of things when my main equipment is occupied.

author: Aldo22
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 12:20:02 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on June 20, 2024, 11:13:41 amI think I can explain the bad reputation.1. Hantek does not have the dealer prices under control.A product that's an amazing deal for $150 can be pretty garbage if you pay $450 for it because there is simply much better for that money.That's exactly what happens here. For exampleherethey want €468 (VAT incl.)That's ridiculous, of course.If you buy at the wrong price, you will be disappointed.2. As a "beginner's scope", it might be the first DSO someone buys.A lot of things are puzzling at first and you draw the wrong conclusions: "I wish I'd bought a better one."But the "problem" is perhaps quite normal. Maybe it's the cable, the termination, the probes...We remember: "Why Digital Oscilloscopes Appear Noisy" for example.3. Of course it's cheap and has a bunch of bugs, it also has a bunch of features. But the basic things do work and "better" brands are not always perfect either, afaik.At least there are still firmware updates, the last one on 2024-05-07.So there is always hope!

author: jasonRF
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 12:37:15 pm
content: Before purchasing anything, I would check into whether the school you are at allows you to go in and use the electronics labs on your own time. When/where I studied EE we were not, but it is worth checking. Assuming they don't...Unless you need higher voltages or frequencies than it can handle, if you were my kid I would recommend the Analog Discovery. There are a number of good reasons, most/all of which have been covered by others:It is small so can easily be thrown in a bag and taken anywhere, and college students tend to live in tight quarters and move a couple of times a year. For me this would be a big deal.It also includes Bode plots and other capabilities that would likely take a fair amount of work to implement with most stand-alone equipment that you could afford right now.If you eventually do buy a bench setup the AD3 could still be useful.If you ever find that you no longer use it then you can sell it; they hold their value quite well.The first handful of years I was doing hobby electronics (which I started many years after finishing school) I only had a Picoscope 2204a which is inferior to an AD. With an EE background I had the knowledge to make good use of the limited capabilities and it was perfectly fine.jason

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 01:01:09 pm
content: HelloPSU is not really a problem a flea market old PC PSU and a 5 $ banana PCB from AliExpress supply 5 and 12Vgenerate 3.3 or other voltage can be done with cheap LDOEntry level Owon , Hantek and other chinese oscilloscope can be located under 200 $RegardsOS

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 02:23:08 pm
content: Quote from: tautech on June 20, 2024, 08:15:13 amQuote from: tautech on June 20, 2024, 08:40:15 amYou mean like owning a 2-channel SDS802X?

author: Overspeed
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 02:58:26 pm
content: Quote from: jasonRF on June 20, 2024, 12:37:15 pmHelloSmall is not really a advantage for an oscilloscope as the size / quality of the display is also an important parameter , better to see something on the screen .Small do not include the probes and accessories ( banana to BNC , PSU ... )Small don t mean STRONG so you need carry caseanother important parameter is the robustness of the BNC connector as cheap entry level oscilloscope have problem of connectors / pcb stiffnessRegardsOS

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 20, 2024, 10:57:47 pm
content: Quote from: Overspeed on June 20, 2024, 01:01:09 pmI hadn't seen those banana PCBs before, they're cool and they even have fuses!example:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004967107585.htmlThere's lots of variants, too, eg.:https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006215767600.htmlOld ATX power supplies are easy to get hold of.Quote from: Overspeed on June 20, 2024, 01:01:09 pmATX PSUs have 3.3V and -12V rails (actually brought out on that adapter).There's plenty of cheap adjustable boost/buck converters for other voltages.Edit:This one has a built in adjustable buck converter, USB connectors and supports quick charging for phones...https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006000769093.htmlI'm tempted by that one.

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 07:51:28 am
content: Quote from: Overspeed on June 20, 2024, 02:58:26 pmHello, It is an advantage in terms of portability, which might or might not be relevant.For a bench scope, the sweet spot is certainly larger than entry-level devices, but WRT to PC oscilloscopes smaller is better (assuming enough structural integrity), as most of the processing grunt and screen size depend on the computer.As per ATX supplies, I'm not quite sure. If you can design overcurrent protection properly, maybe, but 30-50 amps in the event of a short are a fire hazard at worst, and will certainly burn your breadboards and components.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 08:30:45 pm
content: Quote from: Antonio90 on June 21, 2024, 07:51:28 am

author: tggzzz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 08:49:49 pm
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 21, 2024, 08:30:45 pmAnd after all these wonderful hacks have been added together, it will be found that it would have been easier/cheaper/better to have just bought something quarter-way decent in the first place.

author: Fungus
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: June 21, 2024, 10:25:31 pm
content: Quote from: tggzzz on June 21, 2024, 08:49:49 pmYou can get something better for $3 plus a salvaged ATX power supply? (with four different outputs)

author: Antonio90
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 09:33:09 am
content: Quote from: Fungus on June 21, 2024, 08:30:45 pmWell, didn't see the fuses. I guess they take care of the fire hazard.

author: Messtechniker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: June 22, 2024, 12:51:57 pm
content: Don't forget that minimum load requirementsmust be met for those ATX power supplies.