Awsome electrical wiring job! - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: wasssup1990
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 12:00:31 pm
content: http://www.break.com/cue-the-cuervo/worst-automatic-garage-door-opener-installation-ever-2020629

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 12:46:19 pm
content: Doesn't look too badAt least it seemed to have a ground wire most of the way...No, really. Deenergise and rip the crap out - only way to go there.Brrrrr. People.

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 12:46:53 pm
content: yep you get some BIG stuff in america - or in thi case LONG, even the italians can do better than that

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 12:56:11 pm
content: I've always wondered about people building garages and not putting proper mains electricity in there from the start. Why would you not want electricity in your garage? I don't get it.And when they finally realise they need power in there, they knock up something potentially lethal like that in the video.

author: VIPR
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 01:31:17 pm
content: There is no way that is up to electrical code in any state in the US. I can't believe the home inspector would allow that to stay in place if the house is for sale.Quite hilarious to watch the video though.I vote that the crummiest electrical install of the week. Thanks for sharing.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 02:14:00 pm
content: Until that last bit with the light bulb socket adaptor, that looks like something my father-in-law/ grandfather-in-law would have done. I spent over 10 years, from the time I started dating my wife until we moved away fixing things like that at their place.I remember my wife's grandmother taking me aside and whispering, "go buy what you need a fix that the way it's supposed to be."I know it's not code, but it wouldn't have taken much to connect the wire to a proper distribution panel or even an existing circuit on the main house with a proper junction box, then run the wire (Use outdoor rated wire, and secure it better) to the garage, and install proper receptacles right above the openers.However, I do know an anonymous excavator engineer that installed his garage door opener outlet in the wrong spot, and now has an extra outlet on his garage ceiling. It's no one we know, trust me.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 02:24:48 pm
content: Sorry for the double post, but this reminds me that my dad was complaining to me about his 4800 watt heater for his new garage. "Why does it have a 30 ampere plug on it?" 4800 watts at 240 volts is 20 amperes. Why can't I cut this off and install a 20 ampere plug so I ca plug it into the existing 20 ampere circuit?I explained that a 20 ampere branch circuit can, by design, be loaded to only 90 percent, or 18 amperes. Therefore, that heater shouldn't be connected to a 20 ampere branch circuit. Now, the place won't burn down, but you may get nuisance tripping of the 20 ampere breaker. "Why can't I change it to a 30 ampere breaker?" I explained that he could, but if the garage burned down and the insurance company found out about it, he'd be paying for it.Believe it or not, one of my areas of study at university was building electrical systems.EDITED: I remembered it was a 20 ampere branch circuit, and, here in the US, the usual voltage is 120, so I made an error and typed in 2400 watts, the power drawn from 20 amperes at 120 V. I forgot I was dealing with 240. Sorry to all the perfect people whom I offended, who never make mistakes on anything as important as an internet forum.

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 03:00:57 pm
content: Quote from: Excavatoree on March 10, 2011, 02:24:48 pm2400w at 240v is 20amps? FAIL

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 03:03:21 pm
content: Quote from: FreeThinker on March 10, 2011, 03:00:57 pmSo sorry, Mr. Perfect. I meant, obviously, 4800 watts.

author: tyblu
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 03:16:47 pm
content: "For Real"Great find!!

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 03:18:22 pm
content: Quote from: Excavatoree on March 10, 2011, 03:03:21 pmIn the uk your final sub circuit should be either a ring main (with 13 amp socket outlets) protected by a 30 amp mcb or a dedicated spur back to the distribution box protected by an appropriate (to the cable size) mcb and terminated to a fused spur unit fused to the load. I've NEVER seen a 30 amp plug in a domestic environment as manufactures make units that either are portable and use 13 amp plugs or are fixed (ie cannot be unplugged) and are fed by a spur. Hands up dude you got it wrong, no biggy.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 03:26:28 pm
content: That's what I get for trying to make forum entries at work.I guess the garage door wiring person had an aversion to electrical boxes, but not splicing. No receptacle box and a spliced in power strip?? Why not run a few more feet of NM cable (usually called ROMEX in the US) and plug into a proper receptacle?Most homes in the US have one 30 ampere plug, for the electric dryer, and possibly a 40 ampere for the stove, unless these appliances are gas. Garages use 30 or even 50 ampere plugs for welding equipment and such.My dad's garage suffers from poor planning, and I'm trying to get him to NOT do things like that video.

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 04:03:41 pm
content: You're in the US? Do you not use 110v as standard? 2800w @ 110v IS 20 amps but only 10 amps @ 240v. Here in the UK all domestic power outlets are 13amp (approx 3Kw) Anything above is classed as a fixed appliance and The FSC is wired as such.

author: Frangible
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 04:20:59 pm
content: Quote from: FreeThinker on March 10, 2011, 03:18:22 pmIn the US we do have 30 amp plugs. We have them for both 240V and 120V. The 240V versions (available in various formats) are used for items like dryers, while the 120V versions are used mostly to power recreational vehicles. We don't ever attach receptacles of a lower power rating to higher current trunks unless the larger gauge wire is first run to a junction box that contains circuit breakers. Unlike the UK, plugs here are not normally fused.

author: Excavatoree
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 04:22:31 pm
content: Quote from: FreeThinker on March 10, 2011, 04:03:41 pmI didn't realize how different US systems are. 120V is "standard" I'm not sure how many true 110V or 115V systems still exist, if any. An appliance can only draw 1/2 of the rated branch circuit current if it is not on a dedicated circuit, so a hair dryer for example is 1200 watts maximum - 10 amperes at 120 volt. Someone living in a 110 area would only get 1100 watts.I didn't realize how different US systems are. Even "fixed" appliances such as dryers and stoves are connected with plug and receptacle - usually these are the only receptacles in a house that aren't the standard 120 volt, 20 ampere (12 AWG wire) or 120 volt, 15 ampere (14 AWG wire.) Dryers use 10 AWG wire and 30 ampere receptacles, Stoves use 40 ampere receptacles and 8 AWG wire.I've always wondered, and I apologize for the threadjack, but, in the US, residential power is single phase, with the secondary center tapped and the center is grounded. Thus, we have two phase conductors 240V apart, and each is 120V from ground. The grounded conductors (not to be confused with the safety groundING wire) would carry no current if the loads on each side were equal.How is this in other countries with 240 as the standard?

author: Lance
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 04:52:53 pm
content: Quote from: wasssup1990 on March 10, 2011, 12:00:31 pmThat's great! Silly people, and the things they do are so amusing...

author: Simon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 05:41:32 pm
content: Quote from: VIPR on March 10, 2011, 01:31:17 pmyou should see some of the shit I unearthed in my house live wires with the sleeve slit all the way back to the main cassing and then a slit all around the circumference of the neutral sleeve. This was done by a council contractor ! I wish I nkew who he was because I would kill him - thats what he nearly did to me

author: FreeThinker
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 05:42:52 pm
content: The normal situation in he UK is that a three phase and neutral cable is ran to a block of homes and then split off in groups of three (one on each phase) each home has then a single phase and neutral supply balanced over three phases. As this is 415v 3phase each single phase is 240 v to earth or neutral (in fact it was common for the supply company to earth bond the neutral at regular points in what was called permanent multiple earth). This tends to minimise neutral currents but increases risk of death due to electrocution. Rcd's and effective earth bonding minimise this risk.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 06:18:38 pm
content: Quote from: Excavatoree on March 10, 2011, 04:22:31 pmYes, the correct term is split phase.QuoteHere in Europe and most of the world, power is distributed as three singles phases, each 220V to 240V from earth (400V to 415V from phase to phase). Domestic consumers only get a single phase and small industrial consumers get all three phases.In the US a high to low voltage transformer only powers a few houses at most. Here in the UK a much larger high to low voltage transformer will supply a hundred or more homes. Longer low voltage cables are less efficient due to increased voltage drops but one large transformer is more efficient than 100s of little transformers and low voltage cables are easier to maintain.110V is also used in the UK but only in factories and on building sites but it's either delivered as 55V-0V-55V split phase (earthed centre tapped transformer) or three phase (63.5V to earth/neutrtal, 110V phase to phase) which is safer than US 110V.

author: tecman
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 06:26:49 pm
content: Quote from: Excavatoree on March 10, 2011, 04:22:31 pmI am not sure about statement that you can only draw 1/2 of the rating of the branch circuit. There are 15 and 20 amp circuits and outlets, and all wire, etc is sized to allow this maximum draw.As for the video, there are so many code violations it is almost a joke, Wire on the outside of the studs, NM cable outside, no GFI in the garage, splices w/o enclosures, unprotected cable on most of the run, and so on. Maybe the installer just looked at it as a giant extension cord, which is considered temporary wiring and exempt from most NEC requirements (HaHa)paul

author: david77
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 10, 2011, 10:20:53 pm
content: A bit OT but may be of interest:In Germany we also use three phase 230/400V distribution networks. The three phases are usually delivered to every house. The mains wiring in the house/flat is then distributed over all three phases.The service entrance into each customer unit is usually TN-C (L1/2/3 and Neutral). From the service entrance onwards it's installed as TN-C-S (L1/2/3, N and PE).There are however still a lot of homes wired as TN-C systems. That means that the individual appliances and each socket are connected only with two wires (L+PEN) and the PE connection is established locally on every socket or fixed appliance. This system has many drawbacks, chief among wich are you can't really use RCD's and of course a broken PEN wire could lead to electrocution. These TN-C systems were outlawed in the late 1960's for new installations but older installations did not have to be updated.You can still get a single phase service - they are a bit cheaper - but the three phase distribution will still be run into your service entrance.The usual customer unit is fused to 3x25,35,50 or 63A, 63A in newer installations only.Distribution networks in towns are mostly underground, only old houses still get their power from a roof mast. The ugly power lines along the roadside like it is common in the US and AUS are something we don't have, though. The wires are usually strung from rooftop to rooftop, like here:http://static.zoonar.de/img/www_repository2/b9/3d/21/10_71ba15f1671c7eee16697b162fb3ac1b.jpgThe LV network is supplied by small transformer stations dotted all over towns, they usually look like this:http://www.evu.gochsheim.de/cms/upload/news/trafostation_freihalten.jpgThey contain HV switchgear, one or more trannies and the LV switch gear and distribution. HV supply is 10, 15 or 20kV.The standard plug is the Schutzkontakt (CEE7-4) plug and socket. They are rated to 16A@230V, that gives 3680W power from a usual socket. Appliances that use more than 2000W are supposed to have their own circuit and MCB (e.g. washer, dryer, dishwasher, etc.).The most power hungry appliance is usually the electric oven wich is mostly connected to all three phases and fused with 3x16A MCB's, so it can take a wapping 11kW.RCD's are now mandatory, but again only for new installations and when bigger changes are made to an existing one. There are no mandatory inspections for installations in private buildings, so pretty much everything goes. And I have seen pretty much everything. It is fascinating that not much more accidents happen...For bigger appliances like circular saws, drill presses or welding gear the red 5pin CEE plug is used.http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:CEE-Stecker.jpg&filetimestamp=20091117193342Common types carry 16 or 32 amps. Every self respecting hobby workshop has a couple of them fitted. I use one for my drill press.

author: lowimpedance
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2011, 02:12:11 am
content: The video guy said the house was for sale, my bet its a 'Deceased Estate' sale. The person that did that wiring job is surely in line for a Darwin award.

author: wasssup1990
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2011, 02:44:45 am
content: Glad y'all like the video.

author: PetrosA
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 11, 2011, 03:43:19 am
content: Definitely the only thing code-compliant about that is the light socket on the wall in the houseEven the screw-in adapter is not code compliant. THe plug in the adapter is two prong, so there is no ground wire to the garage either. This doesn't even count as a temporary installation and even if it did, it could only be used for 90 days max. I've seen a lot of stuff like this over the years - mostly done by the homeowners. I've seen fluorescent workbench lights with 120V on the entire frame right next to copper plumbing pipes (the plumber got shocked) because the previous owner used lamp cord without a connector instead of proper NM cable, I've seen dryers with the entire frame hot and the flex aluminum duct (also hot) laying and sparking against a heating oil tank, etc. etc. etc. Unbelievable.4800W/240V=20AYou would size the circuit like this: 20A can be no greater than 80% of the protective device and branch wiring rating, so smallest protective device and wiring rating allowed would be 25A. They do make a 25A breaker but it's not common, and since the max rating of #12 AWG is 25A it doesn't meet the 125% rating required for the load. If that is not a common trade size, then you have to go to the next larger size up. In this case that would be a 30A breaker and #10 AWG wire. (There are temperature ratings to take into account for the wire size, but not worth getting into.) You could technically use a 25A breaker to protect the circuit, but since the manufacturer delivers the product with a 30A plug on it, you pretty much have to provide a receptacle rated for that plug. Changing the plug to one with a different rating would void the UL listing and as mentioned, give the insurance company an excuse not to pay.