Review of Development and Manufacturing Plan - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: MikeRags
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 07:54:53 pm
content: Hello, looking to get some feedback for my development and manufacturing plan to see if it all makes sense or if I am missing anything. I have an EE degree and spent 10 years in photovoltaic engineering and project management for R&D projects, before starting my own company. I am no stranger to R&D projects. I have done hobbyist level embedded development, mostly with custom PCB’s for simple AVR projects, but I have minimal experience in PNP PCB manufacturing.Project is to create a DC brushless motor controller to operate from solar power (up to 100V at 12A) and integrates backup battery charging and a few other features. Nothing too complicated, but it need to be a safe, reliable and a rugged design to operate for years outdoors. I am estimating needing 100pcs per month.Plan is below:1. Hire a design engineering company to create the design, perform prototype testing, create final PCB’s, firmware and schematics. Likely will be a STM32 based controller with around ~120 discrete components. I estimate this will cost around $75k to develop the design, but am getting quotes back next week.2. Procure the PCB’s from a Chinese manufacture who can deliver good quality. Willing to pay more than bare bones to get good quantity and will order in quantities of 100 panelized for PNP manufacturing later. Looking to fit at least 5 PCB’s per panel.3. Procure components from DigiKey or Mouser and setup either a Chinese desktop PNP (CharmHigh CHMT48VB?) machine or larger Chinese PNP machine (SMT660?), stencil setup and reflow oven to perform manufacturing in house for the 100 boards per month. I think we could manage the parts, run the boards and assemble the enclosures in about 40 hours of labor a month. Estimating $20k to setup the line.That’s pretty much it. We will test all of the boards using an automated test sequence across the voltage range with the actual motors hooked up under load. From here, we want to continue adding onto our product line and adding more boards into the mix.I know there will be quite a bit of trial and error learning along the way, but it all seems pretty manageable to me. Any comments, suggestions, recommendations or warnings would be appreciated. Is anyone here doing something similar?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 08:41:09 pm
content: Quote from: MikeRags on March 29, 2018, 07:54:53 pmWell, I have about 15 different boards I make in house. I have a Philips CSM84 P&P. I make my own stencils with PC board-like processes (photoresist and etching) and print the paste manually. I converted a GE toaster oven with a thermocouple controller to do the reflow. I can fit 6 of my smaller boards in the oven at a time. I have made over 1000 boards this way.So far, I have not done panels, but a project coming up will be using panels, so i have to learn how to do that. (My P&P has all the features for that.)I use E-Teknet in Arizona for PCB manufacturing. They do the manufacturing in China but have their own people in the fab shops to control quality. I've had them do several hundred different board designs over the years, never had a problem with them.I have been watching the OpenPlacer and other systems with interest. But, the error recovery on my Philips machine is amazing! You can interrupt it in the middle of a board and change things like having it pick up parts from a different feeder location, skip a part when you run out near the end of the run, etc. and then continue placing the board. Most of these low-cost machines have very LIMITED recovery ability. If you have to stop, you have to sweep all the parts off and start over.Jon

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 09:12:55 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on March 29, 2018, 08:41:09 pmNo, that's not the case. On QIHE you can interrupt the job, restart, and do pretty much all the things you mentioned. It might not be as convinent on Philips s/w, I don't know, but you definitely don't need to " sweep all the parts off" if you ever need to restart.

author: MikeRags
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 09:45:08 pm
content: Quote from: jmelson on March 29, 2018, 08:41:09 pmThanks for the reply! Some real good information. I assume you purchased this machine used? Ar you willing to share how much and where you got it from? I am also considering used commercial PNP machines. What was the learning curve like to get it operating?

author: MikeRags
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: March 29, 2018, 09:48:54 pm
content: Quote from: ar__systems on March 29, 2018, 09:12:55 pmThanks for the reply. Do you have a QIHE and if so what model? What is your volume like and how do you like the machine? Do you think it is comparable to to the other Chinese PNP machines such as the CharmHigh?

author: jmelson
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 01, 2018, 10:16:43 pm
content: Quote from: MikeRags on March 29, 2018, 09:45:08 pmYes, definitely used. I had been poking around on smtnet and other places, looking for info on P&P machines for about a year, and a few people were quite helpful. One of the things I learned was that vintage of Philips (made by Yamaha) machine were built like tanks and did not need a lot of consumables.Then, a guy contacted me. he was not a broker, but worked at a manufacturer. I don't know if they were a contract manufacturer or OEM. But, they had 2 machines they had to get rid of, as 2 new machines were coming in in about 2 weeks. So, every day I exchanged emails, the deal got better. First, just a machine and a couple feeders, then a bunch of feeders, then ALL the feeders they had, then they'd throw in the guts of the 2nd machine that they were going to scrap. So, for $3600 I got the CSM84 with a vibratory feeder and a mechanical alignment station, about 50 assorted feeders, manuals and the electronic box of the other machine. Well, the other machine was a totally different revision, so not any use to me. I traded that to a guy for a some more feeders in the 12 and 16mm size. Later he sent me the feeder rails off the other machine and a homemade base to mount feeders on. I made a rack with the feeder rails to hold a bunch of feeders.QuoteI had never even SEEN a P&P before I got this machine. I was crudely making boards with it in a little over a week. I wrote a program in c to read in the P&P file from my CAD system and convert it to the format the P&P machine needs. But, for the first board, I just hand edited the numbers from the CAD file to the P&P file.Jon

author: l0wside
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 05, 2018, 11:01:08 am
content: Hi Mike,sounds similar to the plan I had (except that I did the development myself). To make a long story short: unless you have high variances in your product (which you don´t seem to have) or need fast turnaround times, don´t do the assembly yourself. The assembly is the most repetitive and least creative part of making a product, so it is basically the obvious choice for outsourcing.In any case, first get a number of quotes for PCB assembly. The assembly houses typically have much better discounts at the distributors than you do (up to 50%). This can offset the cost of the actual assembly.I cannot speak for the US, but quotes over here in Europe differed easily by a factor of 3, so make sure to get more than one.Max

author: NorthGuy
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 02:34:34 am
content: You probably are going to have lots of TH power components - big capacitors, magnetics, relays, shunts etc. Perhaps it's a good idea to implement MCU and supporting stuff on a small board and then treat the assembly of the two PCBs differently.

author: MikeRags
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 11:29:08 pm
content: Quote from: NorthGuy on April 06, 2018, 02:34:34 amYes, this is exactly what the developer is proposing. This way we can also reuse the same logic board for different projects and change the power board as needed. Also help standardize across products.

author: MikeRags
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 06, 2018, 11:34:21 pm
content: Quote from: l0wside on April 05, 2018, 11:01:08 amHello Max. Sounds like something did not go as planned with the in house manufacturing, or was it just so you could focus on design work versus manufacturing? Anything specific I should consider? Perhaps just the pain of stocking parts and setting up the machine for limited runs? Right now I need about 2k boards (2 designs) per year going up to 4k next year, which I was thinking could justify a decent used PNP machine. Made in USA is an important selling point, which is another reason I was thinking of in house as well.

author: l0wside
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 09:07:15 am
content: Hi Mike,precisely. With limited time, I had to focus on development and support. Getting the complete process (paste printing, populating, soldering) stable is anything but trivial and therefore time-consuming.* If solder paste printing goes wrong on a sample, I wipe it off and try again. For series production, this is not exactly desirable. With proper tooling, it will get better, but a decent printer (with guided squeegee) will cost you another 2k$. Still, it will be a process to learn and optimize.* Populating (PnP). Getting components is not too hard, the re-reeling services of the major distributors are good and not overly expensive. Getting to know the quirks of the machine and the SW that comes with it (the SW that came with my machine worked just so-so) was what eventually made me give up. I can only tell about my machine, but the sub-10k China machines all have roughly the same concept:- The block feeders are a PITA. They limit height and force you to place the aluminum caps (and other higher parts) by hand. The springs used to keep the tape down introduce so much friction that the feeder holes in plastic tapes will occasionally be ripped apart by the feeder mechanism.- The cheap cameras (composite video, a relic from the 80s) and the image processing with OpenCV are also rather working so-so.* Soldering will require a proper oven. The T-960 could be a good choice, but will cost you another 1k$. Vapor phase is better, but more expensive. Finding the right profile between unsoldered joints and burned boards will cost you even more time. I have the T-962, which is unsuitable for lead-free.A PCBA house knows how to do all this.With a PCBA, you have the extra advantage that defect devices are on them, while inhouse they are on you. And yield is never 100%, see my remarks about the stable process. If you manage 80% in the first phase, I would say you are already pretty good.I cannot tell about the situation in the US. Over here, there are plenty of PCBA services around. Heck, I could print "Made in Germany" on my devicesIn terms of cashflow, it does not make too much difference whether you pay the distributors up front or the PCBA. In terms of turnaround time, DIY is likely to be much faster.In my opinion, you have three choices:* The Chinese way: Chinese paste printer (i.e. framed stencils), Chinese PnP (like CharmHigh ets.), Chinese oven. This is what I tried before I gave up. About 10k$ to get started.* Used devices. Read the posts by rx8pilot. This is what he did, if I recall correctly, it took him like half a year to get it all running. Maybe 20k$...30k$ to get started.* Assembly service.Get some offers, do the math (including yield), and set an appropriate price for your own time.

author: Smallsmt
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 12:30:07 pm
content: QuoteWhat's your idea about doing the PCB production on your first product by yourself?If you need another project setting up a PNP line it's ok.But your first priority should be a working product.I think buying assembled circuit board is the best solution for the beginning.If everything is working fine maybe it's a good idea to start your own PNP line.Here are so many experts offering their solutions but all of this options consume a lot of time and money to get it working.

author: MikeRags
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 02:54:20 pm
content: Quote from: l0wside on April 09, 2018, 09:07:15 amYeah, after reading a bit more and thinking about it, I don't think I am going to go forward with a Chinese machine. What I may not have made clear, is that we currently sell 100 of these boards a month, but we don't own the design since they are from a 3rd party. Plus they are fairly high cost, so I have a decent 2-3 year ROI for spending $20-$30k on used equipment. I will probably grab some quotes from PCBA houses to compare against the costs of setting up the machines at our shop. Thanks for the input!

author: MikeRags
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: April 09, 2018, 05:16:40 pm
content: Quote from: Smallsmt on April 09, 2018, 12:30:07 pmYes, have been thinking about this. Just for reference, we are an established company with ongoing product sales and 9 employees. We want to own the design and I was thinking the manufacturing as well, so we have complete control over quality and lead time. Also, with the equipment, we could do cost effective runs of lower volume products say 20pcs, that I don't think would be cost effective at a 3rd party.As for setup, your right, at the moment, I don't have the time to fiddle with a machine for weeks to get it running and dialed in. Thinking about it, I am in the Bay Area, so I would probably hire a contractor to come in for a few weeks to get everything running, write the operating procedures and train someone us to operate it.

author: satoshi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 04:04:20 pm
content: Quote from: l0wside on April 09, 2018, 09:07:15 amI am in the reserve station. I've been in business for 7 years now but I have been outsourcing PCBA all these years. A recent invoice for a prototype made me reconsider the PCBA:DescriptionUnitsPrice (USD)4 layer, unit size:77*49mm Flying-probe test.3185Components3549Asembly3152Stencil150X Ray3120So this is 60$ for a PCB when I can get them at 6$ at JLPCB and 180$ for the components when I can buy them for 130$ at Digikey if I buy just for one prototype but can reduce the price down to 90$ for larger quantities. This particular PCB has 130 components and 50 BOM lines. This is our 3rd and most complex design that is in the pipeline to be launched so I still need to figure out if prices for larger quantities will make more sense. Still, I'm considering an in-house pick and place set up to control the production, avoid customs hustle (we are in Europe) and potentially reduce costs but I'm not sure if it will be something bigger than we can chew considering we make 1000 boards a year for our 3 comercial products. I've also read not very funny stories herehttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/the-reality-of-a-pick-and-place-lifestyle/25/I have to add we have one employee managing and wrapping up the production so he'll be the one using the machine. Does it even make sense to consider the in-house setup?

author: Fire Doger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 22, 2019, 08:23:44 pm
content: Quote from: satoshi on October 22, 2019, 04:04:20 pmPoint #1: PCB Assembly operator must know a ton of things, it's not a washing machine to load and watch it.Point #2: If you need X-Ray then I guess you have 1+ BGA. BGA means that reflow profile must be perfect (things that operator must know, paste types, fluxes, temperature curves etc etc...) to minimize failure rate.Point #3: 50 BOM lines means 40+ feeders (assuming some will be in trays), this will add cost to the machine.Point #4: I assume that you buy PCBs from them? (You said about 6$ from JLC)That's not a valid number for calculations because you can buy pcbs from whoever you want in panels and give them to assembly house.Exceptions are for ex. JLC assembly because they want to promote their PCBs and they have automated their flow, that's why its so cheap. There are also other similar manufacturers like PCBWay.Every simple assembly house will accept pcbs from anyone if they meet their panel requirements. (depends on their machines)Point #5: Look point 4, same applies for parts. Every serious assembly house will accept parts provided by you as long as they are on reels (they don't like tapes and rereeled jam their feeders)Point #6: This invoice is for 3pcs, on almost every assembly line tooling cost (loading the feeders, setting the machine, fixing the pnp files, etc) is very high. This price is also not valid for calculations.Point #7: How much shipping and customs will cost per batch?Get some solid numbers on how much assembly will cost you per batch and then you will know how much an inhouse assembly will save you per batch/year. 3pcs is R&D/samples cost, not production.If your batch is 3 pcs then start from making bigger orders to cut cost from there.

author: satoshi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 23, 2019, 01:59:54 pm
content: Quote from: Fire Doger on October 22, 2019, 08:23:44 pmThank you for the feedback. I received today the quotation and I can't justify an investment in an in-house setup. We will be making from 200 to 1000 boards a year. They are charging 81$ for the board assembled, that's the price I can get just the components if I were to order from Digikey for a batch of 1000 units. I was a bit angry for the price we paid for the prototype but definitely the numbers change for larger orders.:: Quantity ::PCB Cost ::Components Cost ::Assembly Cost ::X Ray ::Total5023042702802205028100280790432025087792003701530340028016370Customs are 20% of the value declared and the shipping cost is pretty standard but I can't see how taking those into account would change my view.

author: Fire Doger
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 06:51:30 am
content: As said above tooling cost is a big factor on any custom manufacturing process.If you say that only parts will cost you as much as assembled boards then you can't do anything else other than making bigger orders or hunt for offers, ask discounts etc from suppliers -manufactutersEven if it's cheaper at the end you have to take account all the hassle compared to just pressing "order" button.Self assembly payback is highly depending on your workflow. If you don't have many prototypes or big batches it won't save you a lot of money. You will grow bigger faster if you invest on adding more products, making bigger orders, increase the sales of your existing products etc...Then it may worth a self assembly line.

author: satoshi
author_rank: Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 11:25:47 am
content: Quote from: Fire Doger on October 24, 2019, 06:51:30 amAmen. These PCBA companies are unbelievable efficient. Totally off topic but reminds me of thishttp://www.enterpriseintegrators.com/flint/4thR/TomSmithsIncredibleBreadMachinePoem.txt

author: sokoloff
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: October 24, 2019, 11:51:06 am
content: Quote from: satoshi on October 23, 2019, 01:59:54 pmIt took them a half day or more in all likelihood to setup for your prototype run of 3. You’re going to pay for that, of course, and I don’t think the price was out of line or anything to be angry about. If your own staff was doing it, you’d be taking longer and still carrying the cost; it would just be more hidden.