Scope for future project: solderless prototyping tool - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Pahriuon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 14, 2016, 06:46:15 am
content: Hello guys,I'm an aspiring entrepreneur, I would like to develop a new solderless prototyping tool and crowdfund it later on. This prototyping tool should be better than breadboards in three aspects:1) more convenient construction, hopefully more ordererly construction and less ratnests.2) suitable for high frequency circuits.3) has a higher power rating than breadboards, suitable for power electronics.I'm working with lancers on the project, engineers, but I'd like to know your opinions on #3.So, I don't have much experience in electronics I'm your average beginner but I especially don't know much about power electronics, what I read so far discusses it as a branch of electrical engineering, on the professional side, so I don't know the range of projects for the amateur side. The presumption I have of it is bulky components that run many many ampares, but what size what current? I have no idea.The information I need for my project is:1_ is there a de facto component size for power electronics? as I need to know wire sizes?2_ how many ampares do you want to take this prototyping tool up to? 1 A? 5 A?Think of me as a designer: I know you like breadboards and you wish you could use them for your power electronics projects, tell me all that you want."To reach where you want, you must first know your destination".

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2016, 06:50:56 am
content: watching good luck

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2016, 07:11:33 am
content: Let's put 3 aside for now. Can you actually elaborate on 1 and 2?Because if you can achieve 1 and 2, you'll be good even without 3.There is no real de facto standard, but you may start with TO-220 as an approximation.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2016, 07:20:23 am
content: Aren't good quality boards rated at 2a ?Seems this is a hard quest because the wire sizes will increase with current. It will be hard to fit a 12ga wire in the same place as 18ga wire. So power wiring will be bigger than component wiring. Great if you can make it work

author: SvanGool
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2016, 09:02:47 am
content: Add. item 1: If you can realize that with very reliable connections that have low resistance (< 10 mOhm for power circuits), it would already be a great improvement.Add. item 2: A big challenge, but it would also be a great improvement.Add. item 3: In our <40V environment we don't use wire gauges larger than AWG18 (1mm diameter, 0.8mm2 area, max 9A) and go no higher than 5A (for power circuits) or 2A for "normal" circuits. For higher currents I would not use any breadboard type prototyping.This is all very subjective of course.

author: Pahriuon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 14, 2016, 07:34:40 pm
content: Hi,Thanks for the reply guys I'm new here, and boy you guys are fast.Regarding #1, accomplishing it is not a new feat, my first idea was to use interlocking bricks as in LEGO-like construction, I websurfed around and found some ideas close to mine, but did not share the same scope: Brixo and SBrick among them. So I thought the idea of an interlocking solderless prototyping tool was still not out there, and went along the project, until I chatted with a lancer about the project and he started popping four links to projects with similar tones. I quickly dismissed three but one was right on the mark: 5eboard (amazing what a google search with diferrent keywords can bring). I ordered two kits from them to check them out, I'm surprised I haven't come across or heard about these guys before. So there you have it. Though my project now after working with the lancer does not have any interlocking feature and uses mostly metal parts, it's gone through a very big transformation but still fulfills:"1) more convenient construction, hopefully more orderly construction and less ratnests".As for #2, This tool of mine allows for the insertion, removal and connection of component leads and wires (hence circuits are constructed). Component leads and wires would "hover over" a metal plane, they would be close but not touch the metal plane. This metal plane is also connected to the circuit as it acts as 0 V (GND), which allows coupling between each wire and this ground plane. I have NDA-terms in the contract with my lancers so I can't spill the beans of my idea, not that it's that good anyway.Anyway, the setup would allow for free-form design, so wires and components can be laid out according to RF circuit construction concerns. The product brochure (or manual) would also give instructions to end-users relating to these concerns; wire lengths, distance between wires, orientation, etc. Well hopefully that is what I aim to do.The tool is for through-hole components, SMD components are not in my scope. This of course places a limitation on the upper frequency and power the tool can be taken up to.Back to my project scope:Guys: 1) would 5A out of 220Vac 60 Hz seem like a good maximum limit to strive for?ataradov: 2) this pdfhttp://www.vishay.com/docs/95222/to220ab.pdf,shows lead pitch is 0.1 inches (give or take manufacturing tolerence I suppose), which is typical breadboard pin spacing, if this is the component sizes most people work with than it will simplify my project. I saw a picture some time ago of a huge diode and just thought that that's the size hobbyists in this field work with, was I wrong?SvanGool: 3) you mentioned <40V environment, where did this number come from?

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2016, 07:41:32 pm
content: Quote from: Pahriuon on December 14, 2016, 07:34:40 pmI live in a 110v country and I sure as hell would NOT protoboard 110 AC stuff. It is too dangerous. The <40 V comes from what voltages people use on protoboards. Your design might allow high voltages.

author: ataradov
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 14, 2016, 07:44:00 pm
content: Yeah, prototyping high energy circuits with protoboards is not something I would do either.Also, this still leaves a concern for added inductance and capacitance, which would be a huge problem for power electronics I'm thinking about (boost converters, LED drivers, etc).

author: Pahriuon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 15, 2016, 07:15:15 am
content: I live in a 110v country and I sure as hell would NOT protoboard 110 AC stuff. It is too dangerous.Well I read once of somebody asking how to connect breadboards to mains supply.... there are crazy people out there.As for maximum current: 5A seem to come up frequently, I think I'll settle on that. As for maximum voltage:The <40 V comes from what voltages people use on protoboards. Your design might allow high voltages.1) )May you elaborate more on those voltages people use on protoboards? Do batteries and voltage regulators go that high? (I suppose if you put 4 9V batteries it would be close)Also, this still leaves a concern for added inductance and capacitance, which would be a huge problem for power electronics I'm thinking about (boost converters, LED drivers, etc).I suppose the best way to determine whether my tool is suitable for those circuits is to prototype it, test these various circuits with it and optimise the design to see how far it can be taken. I'll be able to figure out the details then.Moving back to leads/wire sizes: 18 awg wire sounds good. But what about components:2) is there a reference that discusses the range of lead sizes for power electronics components?Appreciations,Hamoud Albusaeedi

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2016, 07:46:33 am
content: The <40 V comes from what voltages people use on protoboards. Your design might allow high voltages.This means less than 40 volts, not necessary 40v and that is a high limit. It is common for bench power supplies to go to 30v, I think the practical working limit is 24v. But I am sure you are not designing for these low voltages. I have never seen wire rated at 40 v. I think it would be very hard to design something that has a limit of 30v.Interesting question about component lead sizes. If you do not get an answer in a few days you could start a new topic with just this question. Also you could look at the specs of some high power devices to get an idea start with TO-220s.Do you have any pictures or drawings on what you are doing?BtW the 2 amp limit I was talking about is the rating for breadboards not protoboards, so it sounds like a good idea to design something that can go to 5 amps. Good luck

author: SvanGool
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: December 15, 2016, 09:40:07 am
content: 40V/5A looks good to me, I wouldn't go higher on voltage either, on a prototype, and 110V/220V would be more difficult to get CE/FCC certified, if you ever want to do that.The 40V, I mentioned, comes from an overall impression of the projects I did in the last decades but I am a little bit biased towards automotive 24V (9V-36V) environments, but it doesn't sound like a bad idea, it is still "low-voltage" and there is no additional effort needed in comparison to lower voltages, as far as I know.

author: ar__systems
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 02:42:34 am
content: Why would anyone want to use breadboards for power electronics? Anything that is Lego-like bricks is toy, not suitable for anything serious.Power electronics:** works at high frequencies and need tight and compact layout to work well.** needs to be soldered to PCB to dissipate heat

author: Pahriuon
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 04:34:08 am
content: Quote from: ar__systems on December 16, 2016, 02:42:34 amWell it's not, it started that way but a friend of mine recommended I do a gap analysis to ensure my product was innovative. Upon seeing the failings of breadboards I thought: why not make it go to higher frequency and power? It was a design after-thought really, but now that after-thought has become a main design consideration. The project has changed so much from how it started.Thanks for your answers guys, if my project does move on to crowdfunding eventually I'll be sure to post a link here.

author: ez24
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: December 16, 2016, 05:09:16 am
content: Quote from: Pahriuon on December 16, 2016, 04:34:08 amDo not get discouraged, it seems like a worthwhile project

author: dan3460
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: December 29, 2016, 05:07:50 pm
content: High frequency will be the most complicated part, I have tried to make some oscillators on a breadboard without success. Normally I end up mounting them dead bug stile. In my experience the main problem are the wires going to the different parts of the circuit

author: djnz
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 01, 2017, 06:50:07 am
content: My thoughts.1) more convenient construction, hopefully more ordererly construction and less ratnests.I don't think there is a lot of USP here. Breadboards are pretty convenient, and not having ratnests is a matter of discipline. If you run the wires very flat on the board, so that they look like an unused stapler pin, the whole thing can be like a PCB and very manageable. No ratnests!2) suitable for high frequency circuits.Yes! I'd probably buy such a tool / solution. This has been a pain in the neck with breadboards and I see a USP in addressing this.3) has a higher power rating than breadboards, suitable for power electronics.Sure. However from a design point of view, this could add bulk which could make it inconvenient for other uses. Perhaps a different variant would be a better idea. Also, I am not going to easily trust a new thing for power electronics - the risk is higher.I think if you can really solve the high frequency problem (2), many people could be interested.