Delete WhatsApp, use Signal Private Messenger instead - Page 1
Forum section: electronics / general

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 10:42:53 pm
content: The recent news about WhatsApp's privacy policy is concerning, particularly for me working in the cyber security field. I have been using Signal (and before that, TextSecure) for many years and have been looking for a reason to get rid of WhatsApp ever since Facebook bought it. I don't trust the company at all and there are good reasons why WhatsApp is not approved as a secure way to communicate with Australian Government agencies. Historically the only reason I kept it was because it was more popular among users when compared to Signal, but that has been changing (particularly in the last 6 months or so).For those who don't know, beginning next month (February 2021), WhatsApp's privacy policy changes and will be forced on all users. There is no way to opt out (at the time of writing this). I'm not going to dissect every bit of their policy (you can read the entire thing athttps://www.whatsapp.com/legal/updates/privacy-policy/?lang=enbut here are the key points):From next month, WhatsApp will"share your information to help (them) operate, improve, understand, customise, support and market services". This includes: Information associated with your account, such as phone number, profile name, photo, about information, last seen information, message receipts, information about your contacts (such as phone numbers), transaction and payment data. This information is used by Facebook themselves, "other Facebook companies' and third-parties they do business with.This might not concern you, but it concerns me.Signal Private Messenger which is available for both iOS, Android and desktop operating systems (including Linux). It has all the features of WhatsApp (and then some), has been independently security audited (and vetted by some agencies I work with) and best of all, it even replaces your default SMS application entirely as it handles both encrypted messaging and insecure SMS messages (if you choose to or if the user does not use Signal). I personally use the one application for everything including secure voice and video calls (since 99% of my contacts also use it).https://signal.org/en/Highly recommended.

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 10:57:53 pm
content: And then there's Telegram.It doesn't require a stupid phone connection to the internet when using desktop.By the way, ICQ is still working, the old QIP is connected - they do not collect any information at all and do not know the phone number.

author: JohnnyMalaria
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 11:40:15 pm
content: According tohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software)#top:QuoteWhich, if you follow the trail, leads you to learn that these are Google Play Services components (https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/6568)Is this still the case? Buggered if I'd install it if so.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 09, 2021, 11:41:58 pm
content: Thank you for the heads up; I will investigate.Obviously that, several years after installing such great product, the switch becomes extremely hard especially living abroad and keeping in touch with family and friends. Oh well...

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 12:14:06 am
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on January 09, 2021, 11:41:58 pmDon't be dramatic.Whatsapp is not so good and it is not better than other messengers - it is not difficult to make the transition to any other. Well, a couple of minutes of excitement and discomfort from the new environment, which you may like more.American social networks are already becoming very nasty. Their owners are taking care of their money and their well-being under serious pressure, I think.Think of that short guy who couldn't think of a lot of money not so long ago, but he had to explain himself to toothy sharks...

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 01:54:55 am
content: Quote from: JohnnyMalaria on January 09, 2021, 11:40:15 pmIt's not as sinister as you think. Those services are required for the location sharing option (where you can send your location to other users) if you choose to use it. Signal does exactly what it says on the box. The only permissions Signal asks for are camera, contact, microphone, phone, SMS, storage, calendar and location. You can disable the ones you don't need and Signal still operates just fine (albeit without the use of those features). I've disabled calendar and location because I don't use those particular features of Signal.Some people might not like that you need to provide your phone number and that's fine. For me, my phone number isn't a secret and it eliminates the need for yet another account/login. Essentially if you have my phone number, you can reach me (you can even deposit money into my bank account in Australia using it).Unlike WhatsApp, Signal is not a social media platform. It's a secure communications application. So far it's the only one I'm aware of that is routinely used by three and four letter government agencies in Australia. WhatApp has been on the "must not use" list for official communications for quite some time, at least a few years already.

author: andy3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 02:21:26 am
content: Amazing! But, may be not. I was always suspicious of WhatsApp. A lot of my friends and my family (daughter and her cousins) use it. They have been pressuring me to install it at least on my wife's cell phone. Lucky my wife is not a tech savvy person! I have been resisting it as I never trusted Face Book and anything to do with it. I do have a FB account with all bogus info relating to DOB, location etc. There are pictures but then I use it only to keep in touch with my old friends who has it. I don't post anything on FB other than send the occasional message and I am seriously considering leaving FB anyway.This is good news. I must try to steer my friends and family towards Signal although it might be a hard battle to win. May be I will wait till one of the WA users in the circle gets to learn the bitter lesson someday.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 02:50:19 am
content: Quote from: S. Petrukhin on January 10, 2021, 12:14:06 amMy wife and I can adapt easily to any interface thrown at us; try that with my elderly inlaws and family that live overseas and do not have me around to teach them the ropes. THAT'S what is hard to switch.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 05:53:21 am
content: Quote from: andy3055 on January 10, 2021, 02:21:26 amThat's the only reason I used it, was that it was popular. I never really liked it much. It's certainly better than plain old SMS, but I still never used it for anything sensitive. Mostly small-talk with friends and family.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 12:47:27 pm
content: Not a pleasant change but I've seen it suggested it may violate the EU's GDPR laws.While that may not seem to affect you directly if you have contacts within the EU then it could be a problem for Facebook.I've already installed Signal, just need to try and persuade friends, relatives etc. to install it as well.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 02:32:28 pm
content: Honestly, I hate WhatsApp (primarily because of its lack of an iPad version, unlikeevery single other communications channel I have, meaning that I can't just leave the phone in the other room, as I can when using my computer, for example).But unfortunately, I cannot avoid it, as it's used for the class chat in school, so I would miss out on critical communications. Additionally, I use it with various family abroad who use WhatsApp exclusively because in that country, WhatsApp doesn't count towards their mobile data usage. :/

author: RenThraysk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 03:00:45 pm
content: Yeah, the problem was the secure messengers were developed by for profit companies leaving them vulnerable to be bought, and having their original goals subverted for the sake of profit.WhatsApp was bought by Facebook.Whisper Systems was bought by Twitter.It's why Open Whisper Systems (now know as Signal Technology Foundation) was created as a non profit for TextSecure/Signal.

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 04:09:50 pm
content: While i have been a long time Signal user , and have spend a lot of time convincing others to use it too.I am dissapointed that they don't seem interested in making a version for "pure linux" ... I mean a version that's not linked to your Signal on your phone.I have a PinePhone , and had hoped that they would have ported Signal to that & Librem ... But there's just deep silence.They seem to think That Apple IoS & Android are enough.That's the primary reason the PP isn't my daily phone.The Telegram messenger has been ported to PinePhone , and is working fine.But then i have to .. Once again "beg" people to switch/install a new comms app , and i'm not sure i can convince them all.So if you ever think about abandoning the Apple or Android universe. Don't promote Signal , but consider Telegram.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 04:32:09 pm
content: Quote from: bingo600 on January 10, 2021, 04:09:50 pmThey keep silence on more serious issues:https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/status/1197695344575799296(data leak over keyboard, as i understand, warning - swearing present)

author: Karel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 04:32:37 pm
content: Quote from: bingo600 on January 10, 2021, 04:09:50 pmBelieve it or not, but where I work, Telegram is the default messenger. Technicians, salesmen and the administration department.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 04:33:00 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 10, 2021, 02:32:28 pmHave you tried WhatsApp Web? When I have to use WA I tend to leave it open in a browser tab and just leave the phone wherever. It's quite handy as you cab cut & paste or drag n drop and plus it means I can type as fast as the young 'uns

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 04:39:03 pm
content: Quote from: nali on January 10, 2021, 04:33:00 pmOn mobile devices, background browser tabs are completely suspended (nor would you want it any other way, as having them run in the background would decimate battery life). As such, they cannot receive messages, not that a web chat is in any way even distantly an acceptable user experience on mobile.Additionally, could you imagine if websites were allowed to feed into your mobile device's notification stream? The potential for abuse would be staggering.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 04:39:19 pm
content: Quote from: nuclearcat on January 10, 2021, 04:32:09 pmI don't see that it's their problem that the culture in $INSERT_COUNTRY_HERE backdoors itself. Just another Naomi rant on how everyone else is to blame for her problems, far as I can see.I suppose they could offer a warning that they don't control the input method. But anyone who genuinely cares about their privacy should know this.

author: nali
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 04:56:29 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 10, 2021, 04:39:03 pmI wasn't suggesting a browser on another mobile device (that would be a bit silly), I was referring toQuoteaccessing it from a desktop environment.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 05:41:02 pm
content: Related ...->Erdogan’s press office ditches WhatsApp as Ankara urges Turks to use domestic apps in fight against ‘digital fascism’

author: S. Petrukhin
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 06:09:41 pm
content: Quote from: nali on January 10, 2021, 04:33:00 pmAny messenger has a Web interface or a Desktop application. But Whatsup, now and Viber can't work without a phone. In Telegram, you can turn off your phone and use Desktop.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 07:16:27 pm
content: VSee Messenger is another viable option. It's HIPAA Compliant and used by a lot of medical providers, aid agencies, and even by NASA for ISS Astronauts' confidential calls with their families. I've been using on Windows for years and it's also available on the Google play store for android (I've never looked for Apple).It is very good at optimising video over low bandwidth links (one reason the aid agencies use it). All it requires is an email address, and the free version does everything you would want, including multi person video calls, and one app screen share a day (unlimited duration). You can use the same ID for both windows desktop and phone.https://www.vsee.com/Edit:https://vsee.com/messenger/(No affiliation other than satisfied user)P.S. Its revenue stream is transparent too. It makes its money from it's corporate customers.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 07:25:15 pm
content: I work at information security firm, although my position is not related to security itself.. The only messenger service that is allowed by corporate policy is Mattermost. All public messengers, including WhatsApp, Skype, Telegram are not permitted due to security concerns. When not at work, I use whatever my friends and family members are using.

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 08:19:15 pm
content: Quote from: nali on January 10, 2021, 04:56:29 pmPlease re-read my original comment. I said the problem is that WhatsApp isn't availableon iPad.I never said I couldn't access it on the computer. I can, and do, using their desktop app.The point is, every other communication channel I use, without exception, works on my phone, iPad, and computers. Meaning that I can have any single device nearby for all those services. But no, not WhatsApp, they leave out the iPad.

author: CJay
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 10, 2021, 10:14:13 pm
content: Quote from: tooki on January 10, 2021, 08:19:15 pmWell, damn, I never knew that, you're right, it's not even available on iPads with 4G and a SIM, I wonder what the reasoning behind that is

author: Brumby
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2021, 12:31:57 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 10, 2021, 01:54:55 amThatis what creates interest for me!

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2021, 12:21:44 pm
content: Signal seems to want a hell of a lot of permissions compared to VSee. Just saying.P.S. Ah, yes, it does support iPhone / iPad / Mac

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2021, 12:27:26 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on January 10, 2021, 10:14:13 pmMy hunch is something to do with their fundamental architecture, since the desktop apps (which I suspect are simply encapsulated websites) demand a connection to your phone. But nonetheless, if they can somehow manage to have the phone retransmit the messages to a website, they should be able to then have that website initiate push notifications to a native iPad app.Alas, they have no motivation to do so, having expressly stated that they have no plans to develop an iPad version

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2021, 02:32:29 pm
content: Quote from: rsjsouza on January 10, 2021, 02:50:19 amI just had this discussion with my parents. So I want them to stop using Skype, mainly because it is a broken software, that doesn't work.Like, microphone quality is dogpoo compared to anything else on the phone, and half the time it locks up on the desktop, showing you offline while not and so on. Anyway...So I learned that they registered on FB. They use MSN messenger, which is "Not that bad, since FB got it". And they are not interested in switching to anything else, in fact I'm the weird one for using something else than everyone. They dont remember the login information, it is saved on their laptop as a TXT file, and there is no backup. And the email they created the account with - it doesnt even work anymore.Here in the NL, there are companies that cannot even be reached by anything else than Whatsapp. Email bounces back, phone doesnt get picked up. And I'm not talking about the local bakery. These were real estate agents and companies that do accounting for your tax return.So, I gave up on this completely. Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2021, 03:28:59 pm
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 11, 2021, 02:32:29 pmYep, me too, and I guess most converts here are employees, or Elon Musk type of business man.In my case, I'm an entrepreneur, you just can not keep bugging and nagging people especially your high valued clients/customers to move to other chat platform you preferred personally, it is bad for business and just suicidal.

author: RenThraysk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2021, 04:01:36 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on January 11, 2021, 12:21:44 pmAs a software developer with a keen interest in cryptography, VSee looks like something to avoid.Fromhttps://vsee.com/messenger/"Encrypted with military-grade 256-bit AES encryption"There is no such thing as military grade encryption. The encryption either works (protects data for a reasonable long period of time against an well funded adversary) or an enthusiastic teenager with a Raspberry PI can crack.256-bit AES encryption is a symmetrical encryption algorithm, sure. But these days is rarely the source of security issues, as quality code is available or implemented partially in hardware such as x86 AESNI instruction set, or ARM's Cryptographic extensions. It's all the other stuff dealing with keys, public key encryption, cryptographic hashing* and how they are all used together that causes problems.The electronics equivalent of this would be announcing your military grade power-on indicator LED will light up when power is connected, so the rest of circuit in the product is completely issue free.I cannot see any mention offorward secrecy. This is the feature which makes Signal's end to end encryption scheme more secure than anything before it.Use Signal.* Telegram's MTProto version 1.0 got this wrong, used a cryptographic hashing function (SHA1) nearing the end of it's useful life. This choice alone is reason enough not to recommend Telegram, even though it was later corrected in MTProto version 2.0 to SHA256.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2021, 04:28:56 pm
content: Quote from: RenThraysk on January 11, 2021, 04:01:36 pmThis is standard marketing fluff. Pretty much every company does it. "Aerospace grade," "military grade." True, most people have no idea what those things mean (if anything). They just sound cool, so companies say it. I don't see how you take that to mean that it must not be reliable, unless there is some other info to that effect.Try to take a moral stand against all sigh-inducing bullshit marketing language and you'll pretty much end up in a shack in the woods.

author: RenThraysk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2021, 05:10:30 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on January 11, 2021, 04:28:56 pmSignal doesn't make nonsense claims.It's also quite important to point out it's bullshit, as there are ignorant politicians trying to decrease security based on the marketing language."Attorney General William P. Barr said on Tuesday that technology companies should stop using advanced encryption and other security measures..."https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/23/us/politics/william-barr-encryption-security.html"advanced encryption"

author: duckduck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2021, 07:34:03 pm
content: Been using Signal since it came out. It was a bit bare bones for a while there but they have added a ton of new features in the past year or two. Love it.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2021, 07:36:54 pm
content: Ok, they may use some marketing speak but VSee is also approved by the US Congress for use behind its firewalls, so its security can't be that bad.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VSeeAlso, clearly documented Security and privacy statements, Signal's are more in the form of 'how do I know it's private' type articles.https://vsee.com/hipaahttps://vsee.com/privacySignal may or may not be better, but it seems silly to totally write something off based on some marketing fluff about AES-256 being Military grade.BTW, I did install Signal last night but wasn't keen on the UI.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 11, 2021, 09:00:22 pm
content: I always find 'blind faith' a curious phenomenon. I often catch myself at it, without even noticing.Why VSee? Cool website, nice jingle. Approved for use in Congress.Nine years ago.Their website attacks Skye with some vigor about security vulnerabilities, yet I see no mention of their own, nor how quickly they fixed them.Maybe they haven't had any since they started in 2008?OTOH, here is Signal. Source code, issues, fixes and commits, all there for you or your qualified contractor to security assess.Some find comfort in closed source code but really there is none.https://github.com/signalapp

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2021, 09:37:26 pm
content: Yep, you're absolutely right, blind faith (and familiarity) is a very big decision factor. VSee have some big customers - IBM, NASA etc. as well having a core business of telemedicine where patient privacy is clearly essential.In the absence of detailed cyrptographical knowledge, the next best thing seems to be to place some trust in the organisations that do. A company that is not owned by another with a potential conflict of interest (especially a social media one), and it being absolutely clear who pays the bills (where their money comes from) is another factor. conversations are end to end encrypted and don't pass through their server.Yes, it's completely fair to call it blind faith, but I have no particular secrets that anyone would be interested in, other than not wishing to open myself up to information harvesting for marketing and other purposes. 'Good enough' seems fine. Particularly if it comes with a nice simple UI, is available on all platforms and has good video compression.If I had more secrets then maybe I might be more concerned but 'good enough' is fine for me.

author: RenThraysk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 11, 2021, 09:50:02 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on January 11, 2021, 07:36:54 pmYes, I read them before started commenting. It clearly documented that the free messenger provides no assurances about the security of your data. The marketing nonsense was only thing, and thehttps://vsee.com/firewallpage gave clues (STUN and TURN servers suggesting the WebRTC protocol which almost everyone else is using at this point) as how they are doing the video calls.https://vsee.com/messenger/Compare HIPAA Messenger Products sectionFree Messenger column, No BAA."VSee offers the HIPAA-required Business Associate Agreement where VSee agrees to be responsible for keeping all patient information secure and to immediately report any breach of personal health information."

author: DeanA
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 04:38:57 am
content: How about LINE app???https://line.me/en-US/

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 04:44:06 am
content: Quote from: Gyro on January 11, 2021, 12:21:44 pmDid you stop to look at what those permissions were? They are pretty straight forward...Don't want to use video calling? Don't enable camera permissions.Don't want to use secure voice calling? Don't enable the microphone or phone permissions.I see nothing wrong with any of them.As for VSee, I literally have never heard of it until just now. It looks to be marketed towards doctors and health professionals, rather than a serious, unified, secure communications platform. Signal does it all (and then some) in one application, even plain old SMS. It's simple, lightweight, secure and it just works with nothing more than a phone number.

author: steve30
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 07:45:39 am
content: I think I'll just stick to IRC.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 12, 2021, 08:24:00 am
content: Quote from: steve30 on January 12, 2021, 07:45:39 amI think we can safely exclude you from this conversation Steve, you still use a rotary phone ;-)

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 12:52:05 am
content: I prefer Telegram (has the live location sharing function) but Signal is okay too.Regarding security you should never use an app messanger platform for sensible stuff.We should all delete Whatsapp and stick with the others, I do not like when things get too popular.A good crazy strategy could be to use two platforms in the same conversation, crazy.... but more secure.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 01:05:16 am
content: These are all nice thoughts. In reality the overwhelmingly vast majority of people don't care to this extent, and certainly aren't going to spend time debating the finer points of precisely which encrypted messenger service is technically superior based on the peer-review of their open-source code on Github, or which government agencies say what about them.This is vaguely reminiscent of the Linux fanboys being certain it's the "year of Linux" and they're finally gonna take down MS and Apple. Then as soon as they say "BUT IT'S SO EASY, all you need to do is open a command-line and apt-get..." they lose 99.9% of the public. As they've done the last 20+ years. And will continue to do for the next 20.The truth is people care to the extent it's easy to obtain and use them. The less investment required the better. Signal does well in this regard (especially with the recent endorsement from Elon). Facebook messenger is probably fine for most people. If you are transmitting truly sensitive data, as in actual state secrets, actually classified documents, etc. then you've probably already been briefed on exactly which services are acceptable and how much jailtime you'll get if you use any others.No state actor cares about your cat pics. Or your nudes. Or how wasted Michelle got last weekend. It's like that XKCD. Nobody is gonna build a supercomputer to crack the 4096-bit encryption to your bank account. They're just going to hit you with a wrench until you tell them the password.Which isn't to say nobody should care. They should. But all you folks sending a deluge of requests to your friends to "use this totally secure, totally obscure open source messenger, and it's so easy! Here's a step-by-step on how to sideload the APK onto your phone" are probably just going to end up with fewer friends. If there's an existing, widely used, widely supported messenger that it perfectly fine for everything but transmitting classified info or nuclear launch codes, it's probably good enough. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. It may be a fun hobby for you, it's not for the majority of people who actually need to use it in order to start making a majority of our comms secure.

author: andy3055
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 05:07:41 am
content: Well, Telegram is in the news now!

author: Ranayna
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 07:32:20 am
content: I don't know what news andy is referring to, but here in germany, any news regarding telegram is essentially bad news.Noone talks about it's features or security, but every news piece talks about telegram being used by right wings, neonazis or conspiracy nutters.I don't even want to suggest using Telegram anymore, since associations like this tend to stick and generally do not end well.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 09:47:06 am
content: Telegram is a child's toy compared to the likes of Signal (and far less popular in my experience).

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 10:28:38 am
content: Well, I just read on the news that they've downloaded Signal 8.8 Million times in the last week, a huge surge in their user base. Good.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 10:51:32 am
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on January 11, 2021, 09:00:22 pmNo modern society can function without "blind faith." When is the last time you did an chemical assay of your tap water? And I don't mean sending it to a lab. No no no, they can hardly be trusted. No, you must replicate all of their methods and instruments from scratch - or find an open-source peer reviewed equivalent - and do it yourself. You'd be a fool not to do it.Likewise when you buy a car, do you just assume that the airbag and seat belts work? Oh sure, they worked in the crash tests some years ago. But that was a different car. How do you know thatyourswork. Do you do your own verification? Buy a few sample cars and test them yourself? Do you do a complete X-ray CT and electrical test of the relevant modules yourself? Do you proof-test your own seatbelts using your own homebrew tensile tester? No? Ridiculous.And I know I didn't just see you take an Ibuprofen right from the bottle (god knows where it's been!) you just picked up from Walgreens. Better do a full analysis of each bottle. Otherwise you're just begging to take a big pill of pure Cobalt-60 without even knowing. I mean, sure it's unlikely. But how do youknow?And on and on. I'm not really picking on you specifically, so please don't take it that way. But this general vibe is present in pretty much any thread about infosec. And this is how those people sound when they talk about how ignorant the unwashed public is to use reliable, commonplace encrypted message services such as iMessage and Facebook.We rely on "blind faith" on practically a minute-by-minute basis to enjoy our modern lives. Crypto nerds ignore this and focus on how ignorant everyoneelseis for not keeping up with the history and release notes of obscure platforms because...they're crypto nerds. Turn the same scrutiny back onto them onto any of the many areas in which they are not experts and they are just as demonstrably ignorant as anyone else. How many crypto folks personally do a full function test of every single IC in the laptop they're using? After all, those boards are made in China...they could easily have snuck a hardware backdoor in there. I'm guessing "zero." There's that blind faith again.Don't get me wrong: it'sa good thingthat crypto nerds do this! I love watching Defcon talks, and I'm forever grateful that those men and women are out there hacking shit and probing for security weaknesses. The work they do keeps these systems robust, keeps companies (semi)honest, and eventually trickles out into broader society for the benefit of everyone. I wouldn't have it any other way.All the same it helps to have some humility and not act like you're viewing the rest of society through museum glas; some weird specimens that are too ignorant to *snort* understand that VSee hasn't released any technical white papers in 8 years! You're one of us too buddy, we're on the same side of the glass.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 11:20:35 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on January 13, 2021, 01:05:16 amJust to get the facts clear; here you are talking about desktop computing. Everywhere else (mobile, datacentre, supercomputing, web servers, nas boxes, routers, embedded os) linux rules the roost.Quote from: SVFeingold on January 13, 2021, 10:51:32 amBlind faith is belief in the abscence ofanyevidence. If you choose to live that way you can, but in general life can be better if you make smarter, more informed choices. Of course, I don't mean analyse your water and all source code you use. But you can take advice from others (this forum included), evidence from several independent sources and make amore informedchoice. The probablility of maker better choices is much higher that way. Of course it takes a little effort, so blind faith suits some people better.

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 11:21:43 am
content: Quote from: Ranayna on January 13, 2021, 07:32:20 amSure, if news organizations in Germany are anything like in the US, it only takes a single Twitter post decrying one or two posts on the platform for a few shady "journalists" to quickly generalize to everybody and use the maximum hyperboles possible. It gets tiring, really.Quote from: Ranayna on January 13, 2021, 07:32:20 amAnd that is how they achieve their goal to shutdown anyone, really. Just start spreading the same types of news about any other platform discussed here and the damage is done. That just happened with the Twitter competitor Parler and the racket of the Alphabet/Apple/Amazon triunvirat.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 11:41:09 am
content: Quote from: Ranayna on January 13, 2021, 07:32:20 amEncyption is just a tool that can be used for good or evil, at the users choice.It's not just Telegram, where did all the bad guys go after EncroPhone got broke? Signal, maybe?If you don't want to be associated, better not use encyption.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/07/dutch-police-arrest-six-men-after-discovery-of-torture-chamber

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 11:59:34 am
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on January 13, 2021, 11:20:35 amTrue. My comment was specifically about the persistent maligning of the common laptop user for not switching to Linux.QuoteI don't disagree. But in that case, someone using VSee because it's been deemed secure by several government organizations is hardly "blind." My point is that "I trust that this government agency made an informed decision about which encryption to use" is every bit as valid as "I trust that the city keeps the water clean." Except perhaps to those who make it a hobby to follow crypto developments, or those who test public utilities. Taking advice also requires mostly-blind faith. Unless you are a domain expert/enthusiast, you aren't really qualified to choose who to take advice from. And in that case you fall back on your other human intuitions based on your life experience. To wit: that a government agency uses X service means a lot more to the average person than some random dude on a small electronics forum saying "No X is bad use Y."The solution - as always and ever - is to make the tools you want people to use enticing, so that people want to use them. Not to malign the ignorance of those who "take it on faith" that a popular end-to-end encrypted app is actually secure. This is what the aforementioned Linux fanboys fail to grasp. I hope the same doesn't happen with secure communication since it's far more important than which OS people use.I don't really care that much about this...I'm happy using iMessage. Just wanted to make the point that getting preachy and elitist about encryption is not the way to get the public to start caring about it. And to be clear I'm not talking about you, I don't think you come off that way. But so many in this field do and it's to their detriment.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 12:12:26 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on January 13, 2021, 11:59:34 amYes, but those 'several' organisations likely went to one organisation to get one opinion, i.e. NSA, perhaps in 2009 (lets ignore conspiracy theories about encryption and NSA).Signal source code is in the open to be analysed by anyone at anytime. There are more eyes on it.Like these folks:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55412230Which all helps to feedback into making it better software.Every secure app has issues to deal with. I feel more comfortable with it when its done in the open.Enforced honesty, if you like.

author: RenThraysk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 12:33:29 pm
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on January 13, 2021, 01:05:16 amThis argument is based on your privilege of living in a relatively free country.In a country where say being gay, or atheist, or an activist will get the attention of the government and get yourself jailed or worse executed, choosing the right messenger is critical.So no need of nonsense about state secrets or nuclear launch codes.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 12:35:44 pm
content: Or just being a Uyghur

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 12:45:53 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 13, 2021, 09:47:06 amIt's hard to stop children to play with toys.In my contacts only 10% have Signal and it is not moving since months, about 40% Telegram and going up quickly.100% has bloody Whatsapp.

author: RenThraysk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 01:34:00 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on January 13, 2021, 12:35:44 pmYeah, Signal actually got initial funding from Radio Free Asia, which also provides the only Uygur language radio station outside of China. And was fundamental in exposing the re-education camps.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 02:18:26 pm
content: Quote from: RenThraysk on January 13, 2021, 12:33:29 pmVery true. And I'm sure that most of the people bugging their friends about using this cool new open-source encrypted messenger that they discovered are in that boat. It should be clear enough from this thread that the context of most of these discussions is that of a privileged free country.For those who aren't privileged in this way the issue nowadays won't so much be the strength of encryption but the government-mandated backdoors in the services that silently agree to put them in. And whether VSee has updated their blog in a few years or not has little relevance to that problem. Open-source does not automatically mean "secure."And anyway, my post was pointing that most people don't have strong enough reasons to care about encryption to learn how to verify checksums and sideload apps. Which they don't. If an easy-to-use and popular app comes along that can already do the things they want it to, AND it happens to have some good encryption, then people might eventually use it. Those who DO have strong reasons - like those you mentioned - will be much more inclined to learn those things and take those steps. They're already sold on the idea.

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 03:56:04 pm
content: Quote from: RenThraysk on January 13, 2021, 01:34:00 pmHow about the Southern Yemen people that have been butchered that even UN raised the concern of devastating human right violation there ? Or the Catalan movement in Spain that get suppressed for independence, you guys are interested too or sympathizers ?Or how about the latest incident last week at Capitol, Washington, where so called Democracy Warrior was gunned down to death, cold bloodedly by the Capitol police, just because she just tried to push a door.C'mon, please, stop drifting into politic.

author: RenThraysk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 04:22:09 pm
content: Quote from: BravoV on January 13, 2021, 03:56:04 pmI don't understand your post considering your first post in this thread. Pointing out Turkish government attempts to prevent it's people having secure communications.

author: RenThraysk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 05:48:24 pm
content: Another reason why shouldn't use or recommend Telegram.Here's a post from Filippo Valsorda's newsletter, Cryptography Dispatches, from a few days ago.https://buttondown.email/cryptography-dispatches/archive/cryptography-dispatches-the-most-backdoor-looking/* Filippo Valsorda is in charge of cryptography and security on the Go team at Google.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 06:42:05 pm
content: Quote from: RenThraysk on January 13, 2021, 05:48:24 pmYou should not trust Telegram your personal data more than you can trust Durov, Russian billionaire and founder and owner of Telegram.Durov has a strange episode in his life. He was once involved in hit and run accident, while been chased by police. Despite running over police officer, Durov was acquitted of all charges. And that happened in the country where slightest disrespect towards police, such as throwing an empty paper cup in direction of officer, is punishable by long jail terms. There is an open question how Durov could have avoided prosecution, and whether he and his businesses are controlled by KGB (as a trade off for avoiding jail time).Durov is also the founder of another social media - VKontakte. After he sold VKontakte to pro-government oligarchs, VKontakte’s users were jailed for posts critical of Russian government, and ‘likes’ of such posts.

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 06:44:19 pm
content: ...

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 06:56:52 pm
content: Quote from: voltsandjolts on January 13, 2021, 11:41:09 amYou can have all the encryption in the world, once you get access to the physical device, all bets are off. Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp, Snapchat and others are able to be recovered and parsed from handsets in certain circumstances (provided the messages haven't been deleted and removed from the database, write-ahead log etc...), if you can get the device itself and certain other conditions are met.

author: RenThraysk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 07:28:50 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 13, 2021, 06:56:52 pmYeah, Signal's (et al) security claim is end to end encryption.If the adversary has the unlocked phone, it's a simple matter of running the messenger app to gain access to messages.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 13, 2021, 08:22:40 pm
content: Well the anti-VSee lobby will be pleased to hear that I have given in and re-installed Signal. It actually seems an ok app as far as a replacement for WhatsApp, but the video quality seems a bit lacking compared to VSee and a bit more sluggish. I think [Edit: @SVFeingold, sorry] has probably put across some of my thoughts with more patience than I could.To try to bullet point my thoughts:- All most people want (in the 'free' world anyway) is to guard their domestic affairs from the eyes of data harvesting and marketing companies and the like (even if they are the owners of the platform). The new WhatsApp terms seem to have signed its death warrant in that respect.- People want something to base their faith on. In the case of Signal, this seems to be its open source, donation funded model. In the case of VSee, it is that the company's key business is in patient confidentiality, it's used by NASA, IBM, Navy Seals (apparently), and their business model is clear - and I doubt if they have any interest in my pets. From some of the previous replies, Telegram seems to be on some very dodgy footings in terms of faith (blind or otherwise).- All most people want, or need, is the comfort of end to end encryption. The ability to share pictures of their cats, dogs etc. without coming into the sights of pet food and insurance companies!.... and of course their day to day family arrangements and domestic communications.- Personally I don't want to stand out as giving the impression of possibly having something to hide from the authorities, by being seen to be using some ultraspecialistsecure specialist application - any more than I would use Tor or the dark web or whatever they're called. There are enough active conspirators out there for the authorities to deal with, without having to work out whether I am one of them.- Can anything be said to be secure (from Google) if it's running on an Android phone. As far as I can see, Google are pretty much as interested in making money from my data as Facebook (?).- Why can't I just have a 'good enough' end to end encrypted app that just offers a sensible level of security and is fast, without going the the extent of 'crypto enthusiast / paranoia' or 'state actor' territory. VSee seemed fine for that.Whether I will manage to persuade my extended family to switch is another matterP.S. I saw a review comment on the play store that the windows version of Signal wasn't secure. Is it?

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2021, 05:09:52 am
content: Quote from: RenThraysk on January 13, 2021, 07:28:50 pmSignal does have the ability to set a password to open the application (after reboot) or if you haven't touched it for 24 hours, it auto-locks. Ibelieveis also encrypts the message database on the device but I have not tested this out (perhaps if I get some time over the next few weeks I'll do some further testing).Quote from: Gyro on January 13, 2021, 08:22:40 pmThat relates to the message database itself. It's not encrypted, however the communications is always encrypted in transit between Signal clients.

author: RenThraysk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 14, 2021, 12:36:51 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 14, 2021, 05:09:52 amThe way adversaries get around phone locks is to make sure you are using your phone when they grab you.I don't know either for certain. Pretty well versed (written an implementation of) the Signal protocol, but that just covers e2e.Given Cellebrite's recent embarrassing claim of being able to access the Signal's messages using software, if the phone is unlocked. Suspect might be using whatever secure storage the OS provides.https://signal.org/blog/cellebrite-and-clickbait/

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 14, 2021, 06:51:07 pm
content: Quote from: RenThraysk on January 14, 2021, 12:36:51 pmThat's not the only way, it's the easy way, but there are many phones where locks can simply be bypassed or disabled with nothing more than a few clicks of a mouse and some hardware, or you can simply extract the contents of the memory (even if it's encrypted) without ever booting up the phone or knowing the password. Other phones are brute forced (some slowly, some very quickly). That's all the detail I will (and am allowed to) go into.Cellebrite software and tools can read the Signal database from the phone, but it doesn't extend to every version of Signal (and to my knowledge, not the latest ones). Yes it's true, if you get the PIN/password (either from the user, brute force or via some other method), then you can just view the messages on the screen. As I said, once you have physical access to a device, all bets are off.That being said, unless you have thousands and thousands of dollars to spend, the average nerd on the street is not going to have access to these tools (and some of them can't be bought with all the money in the world unless you're a law enforcement agency).

author: rsjsouza
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 12:03:45 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on January 13, 2021, 02:18:26 pmI agree that most people do not have much to hide and are not particularly worried about this. However, this wave of popularity came with the brash attitude of the main player Whatsapp arbitrarily changing their terms of service to share even more information with their other tainted services - that despite the Cambridge Analytica scandal swayed only a relatively small proportion of Facebook users.

author: RenThraysk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 12:42:09 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 14, 2021, 06:51:07 pmYeah, am kind of familiar. Companies like Grayshift and their $15,000? GrayKey hardware, though Apple supposedly patched the exploit for that.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 03:00:16 am
content: Quote from: RenThraysk on January 15, 2021, 12:42:09 amSuuuuure.... Apple "patched" it.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 03:14:33 am
content: And again...same mentality.Apple is a $2T company. They make most of their money selling hardware. One thing Apple does better than most is taking user privacy and security seriously. It's a big part of their marketing, and a big part of their appeal to a wide swath of users.You really think they're just going to keep known exploits in their products...just in case...what, exactly? So they can steal your mac and cheese recipe? They can blackmail you for your nudes? For your sexual orientation? Forwhat? What reason would they have to the risk their reputation? What is it that's so darn irresistible about some random person's data? Crypto enthusiasts can have some serious narcissism. Everyone thinks they're James Bond; the world's best hackers and most powerful corporations are just desperate to get at the mundane details of their lives. I just don't see it. Unless the answer is the nebulous big brother government. There's plenty of evidence of that at other companies. Not quite so much at Apple AFAIK.There's evidence-based reasoning and then there's paranoia and conspiracy theories. I guess it's also possible my sarcasm detector is broken.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 05:45:06 am
content: I can tell you for a fact that the likes of Cellebrite and Grayshift are still very much in business when it comes to modern smartphone manufactuers (including Apple) running the latest versions of their respective operating systems. I'll let you read between the lines. There is a lot of money in that industry and a lot of very smart people working there, including former engineers for big companies.All that aisde however, don't forget these tools are designed to be purchased by government agencies, law enforcement and national security agencies in order to conduct their business. Yes, if you have enough money, you too can buy a Cellebrite licence as a private customer, however as I said earlier, even the most nerdiest nerd on the street more than likely won't have one, due to sheer cost alone. As for other products, those companies won't even deal with you unless you are a specific type of government agency, it doesn't matter how much money you have.All I can tell you (within certain bounaries) is what I know to be true and what is already available out there in the public domain. Some of this might seem rather "CSI-esq", but believe me when I say, there is a lot of cool tech out there that most people will never lay eyes on.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 08:23:42 am
content: Also, here is a pretty decent write-up:https://fossbytes.com/signal-vs-telegram-which-is-the-best-whatsapp-alternative/

author: ebastler
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 10:31:56 pm
content: Decided to do the right thing today: Install Signal, give it a try, start to convince others to switch. My wife and I both installed it from Apple's app store -- and we both can't even get through the registration:Code:SignalServiceKit.NetworkManagerError-Fehler 0.Two separate devices; two separate networks (DSL & GSM); same result over the last 4 hours.Sorry, Signal. That's a Fail.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 10:58:48 pm
content: Very unusual. I'd just try again. Perhaps network issues are preventing you from registering?

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 11:17:00 pm
content: Quote from: CJay on January 10, 2021, 10:14:13 pmSimilar “reasoning” to Netflix and others not releasing certain videos in certain locations while the rest of the world has it. They just like to get up your nose, I think.

author: IanB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 11:27:50 pm
content: In case anyone is unaware, Signal experienced a vast increase in the number of users the past few days (tens of millions) and their servers collapsed under the strain. They are trying to restore service, but they have to greatly increase capacity to cope with the influx.Probably there will be updates here:https://twitter.com/signalapp/status/1350118809860886528

author: RenThraysk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 11:32:04 pm
content: Signal is having a massive influx in new users, and have been having to add more servers daily. And today even that broke.Think the rate is (or was) 4,900 new registrations per minute.Edit: Ah too slow getting the image... crossposted.PS: Got to be a lot of people leaving WhatsApp, as they have delayed their planned policy changes.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 15, 2021, 11:52:56 pm
content: Quote from: RenThraysk on January 15, 2021, 11:32:04 pmI really don't get these policy changes. What are these execs thinking?How about this: "We've updated our policy to clearly signal that we're going to fuck off and leave our users to communicate in peace, and we'll figure out another way to market our app besides requesting access to and ownership of everything on your phone."How's that for a policy change? Maybe try it out. I feel no sympathy for these companies if/when they go under.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 01:25:07 am
content: Quote from: RenThraysk on January 15, 2021, 11:32:04 pmMillions upon millions. Too little, too late. This move, whether they choose to back-peddle now or not has generated serious distrust in Facebook (a company that already had dubious privacy policies).I will never go back. I never really liked it in the first place. I only installed it because many of my contacts used it and it was more secure than plain SMS. This is no longer the case.

author: Monkeh
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 01:29:17 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 16, 2021, 01:25:07 am[citation needed]

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 01:31:09 am
content: Quote from: Monkeh on January 16, 2021, 01:29:17 amSorry, I'll clarify, it's the case that most of my contacts now use Signal, so I have no need for Whatsapp.I wasn't suggesting that SMS is secure.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 01:40:06 am
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 16, 2021, 01:25:07 amFacebook put a lot of money into WhatsApp, but aren't able to make money from it. What they have done so far clearly hasn't created the revenue streams they'd hoped for. They are probably at the make or break point now. Either they come though this with quite a lot of subscribers intact, and sufficient revenue, or they give up.The problem is Signal is being run as a charity. That's not sustainable. Its very unclear where things go moving forwards.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 01:54:20 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 16, 2021, 01:40:06 amYes you're right, things could change, but for the time being, for me, it's the best available platform and it has been that way for several years now.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 03:22:14 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 16, 2021, 01:40:06 amI do not believe so. They are bringing businesses and payments to Whatsapp, this alone can generate a lot of revenue. Let businesses pay for doing business. But no, the greedy owners also want to collect and share the businesses' customers (you) data including plain text messages and then push ad garbage on you, charging advertisers as well. Tripple profit.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 08:51:38 am
content: The problem of Whatsapp - they did their best to kill any attempts of automation. I remember how people reverse engineered their API, wrote python library, and many used it for monitoring bots for telecom, automation control, shops, and then BOOM, whatsapp started to permanently ban phone numbers as punishment, for using these "illegal" libraries.Then after Telegram started to make dedicated business API, Facebook woke up and created contraption called Whatsapp business, but the API for it was clearly written by a chicken, with a left paw. Its mostly unusable beyond "hello world" examples. Now they want monetize, haha. Good luck. Whoever wanted automation, integration with business processes - moved elsewhere. And with current lunatic Facebook policy, censorship - it is just suicide to depend on their products.Telegram from day one created lot of API libraries, tools, bots there is tons of alternative clients as wells. They can monetize in click of fingers by adding some useful API for shops, automation, etc.Signal, as said before, marketed as nonprofit, tool for dissidents, now have to scale to much larger userbase. No idea how they will keep going money wise.And btw about privacy. Signal was positioned before as dissident tool, and same as Tor, as soon as you start using it, you are on watchlist in many countries. Same time signal restriction bypass techniques are quite primitive. Signal tried to develop federation and failed. Signal "supposed to be dissident friendly" service is easily detectable. And all their efforts more looks like government employees who work from 9pm till 5pm and wont move finger beyond their responsibility.Telegram on same side successfully won epic battle with Russian censorship. Russian government wrecked half of their internet trying to block telegram, Telegram kept service alive, fighting 24/7, and after Durov team developed easy to install proxy software that is not detectable by DPI, all blocking efforts because useless. This was quite creative.

author: SVFeingold
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 09:28:03 am
content: Quote from: nuclearcat on January 16, 2021, 08:51:38 amThis point is often missed when discussing different encrypted communication methods. In places like that no government is going to debate with you about the purported contents of your messages. Using an encrypted chat program? You must be a spy. Have fun arguing from prison.

author: Zucca
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 12:34:26 pm
content: Telegram:- pinned Messasge- sharing live position- create pool questions- EDIT sent messages to correct typo mistake (why not all of them has this basic and simple feature?)- create channel groupSignal is more secure hands down and no further questions ask, but I prefer to have more features on toys.

author: RenThraysk
author_rank: Regular Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 01:56:43 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on January 16, 2021, 01:25:07 amFacebook having spent $19 billion on purchasing WhatsApp, only to realise they can't monetise it somehow... does make me smile.The reason WhatsApp got big (must have peeked around 2 billion users) was that it was free (or cheaper) alternative to SMS, back when telcos charged for them.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 02:03:17 pm
content: I've now had Signal installed and in use for several days and here's a (hopefully unbiased), mostly issues based, comparison against VSee after usage between three family members, phones and desktop ...Signal:Security- Apparently the best, but have you actually studied the source code or encryption? If not, then blind faith.Identity- Phone number based.Android App UI...- Mostly ok and similar to Whatsapp.- Notification ticks seem intermittent, sometimes delivered but only shows one tick.- One case of application hanging (Pixel 4A). Messages shown as delivered (2 ticks) but never arrived or notified, Required Force Stop and run again.- Messaging sluggish compared to VSee.- Video quality poorer than VSee.Windows App...- Verging on unusable.- Startup is slow.- If messaging has been happening between phones since it was last run, it can takeseveral minutesdownloading messages before you can do anything.- When using a webcam (the reason for using the desktop version in the first place), it only sends a narrow vertical central strip of the camera image to the phone, not the full 4:3 image. There does not seem to be any setting to correct this.- The video that is transmitted and received was poorer quality (detail and smoothness) than VSee.- Running on two laptops last night, it persistently reported 'Disconnected' for several hours. Pushing the connect button said unable to connect - check for network problems. All other web connected apps (email, browser) continued to work fine.VSee:Security- Blind faith, based on company's core business and corporate users.Identity- Email address based.Android App UI...- More minimalist compared to Signal and Whatsapp, but clean. For instance, no camera Icon, so if you want to send a photo then you have to take it separately and 'Share' it into VSee therefore less spontaneous.- Displays a 'Logging in' screen for a couple of seconds when you first open it.- Fast messaging response compared to Signal, similar to WhatsApp.- On one phone (Pixel 4A again) it often does not wake the phone with a notification leading to missed messages (messagesaredelivered). Suspect this is due to Google applying more 'power saving' functions to improve the Pixel's less than stellar battery life. No problems with notifications on other phones (Nokia and Samsung).- Decent video.Windows App...- Plays happily between phone and desktop using the same email ID. No delays on startup or message loading issues.- Video quality superior to Signal (presumably due to better compression). Can't compare with WhatsApp because desktop app doesn't work on Windows 7.- Occasional 'Mickey Mouse' audio (Desktop to phone) when starting a call, requiring hang up and re-call. Always seems to work the second attempt. When calling desktop to desktop, the Mickey Mouse issue can happen in either direction, but again is successful on retry. Does not occur mid-call- Fast delivery of messages, with simultaneous notification on phone and desktop.- No issues with displaying full webcam resolution.- Can drag and drop large files for quick transfer (haven't tried this on Signal desktop).Anyway, these are my findings. I've tried to stay purely factual rather than opinion in the comparison. Maybe I'm missing some things, but this comparison is based on our actual needs - Messaging and video between phones, andimportantly, video conversation with distant family member using a laptop and webcam for the comfort of a big screen, being able to sit comfortably side by side on the sofa.I hope this helps somebody. At this point I am reluctant to uninstall either app (or WhatApp) until I know if Signal is likely to improve in the short term. I haven't tried Telegram, but from what I've read here and in the media, I don't think I will, I don't need any further bells and whistles.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 03:44:45 pm
content: You hit Signal at its peak of new users massive subscription surge, which may explain the slowness. Try in a couple weeks or in a month.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 03:59:23 pm
content: Quote from: Bud on January 16, 2021, 03:44:45 pmIn the last few days Signal on my android phone has given "network unavailable" a few times. I assume its just overload as they adapt to new demand.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 05:41:15 pm
content: Yes, it does seem to be something of a surge:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55684595.... an example of how poor messaging (pun intended) can really screw your product!I guess I'll wait a while and see how things settle out with the increased loading. Meanwhile I still have the option of bravely following the path less travelled.P.S. Meanwhile, from another BBC news story (which I won't link for obvious reasons), it a appears that certain US 'radical elements' have flocked to Telegram.

author: dr.diesel
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 05:50:34 pm
content: Another Telegram user here. I've never used Signal or WhatsApp so I can't comment on what's better. However I can say that Telegrams API is very powerful and integrates with Home Assistant, various online communities like PinePhone, FOSSA Satellite automated data and other projects.Key for me was native Linux support which it of-course has.

author: IanJ
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 06:25:22 pm
content: Got rid of whattsapp last year after finding out 3rd parties can spy on your online status, even detecting if you are chatting to another person.Dunno if Signal and Telegram have the same problem.Ian.

author: Bud
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 16, 2021, 07:35:47 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on January 16, 2021, 05:41:15 pmThat is their (BBC's) worst nightmare, isn't it, people who they can't reach to brainwash.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 01:10:51 am
content: Quote from: coppice on January 16, 2021, 03:59:23 pmYep, the uptake of new users on Signal blew even their most optimistic projections out of the water. The service has been struggling over the last few days, but they guys have been busy staging more infrastructure to support the massive increase in users. I'm having intermittent issues with delivery of messages however for the most part, they are working. I expect things to go back to normal within a week or so. This kind of thing is expected on any service.

author: nuclearcat
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 08:24:38 am
content: Quote from: IanJ on January 16, 2021, 06:25:22 pmTelegram have quite good control on such aspects of privacy. You can limit side-channel (calls) and online status with precise granularity (everybody, your contacts, nobody and exceptions)

author: BravoV
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 09:57:06 am
content: Whatsapp and Telegram user here, tested Signal for few months only, basically its still very crude stage compared to Telegram.Also with recent outage, surely it can not be relied on for important instant messaging app, maybe we should wait for a while like few months until all settled.

author: VK3DRB
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 10:15:42 am
content: Encrypted messaging or telephony is for those who have something to hide.

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 10:50:01 am
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on January 17, 2021, 10:15:42 amDid you notice the address of this webpage begins with https?I don't have anything to hide, I'm lucky enough live in one of the safer countries. I just object to the ever more intense and invasive marketing techniques which are now extending into deep personality modeling. Are we going to end up in a future where there is an AI model of your brain on a cloud computer somewhere :-)

author: bingo600
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 12:14:59 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on January 17, 2021, 10:15:42 amAnd why is that ?Freedom of privacy is as important as freedom of speech.

author: tszaboo
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 10:01:18 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on January 17, 2021, 10:15:42 amSure, can you please post here:- last weeks browsing history- and your entire contact list- your GPS location at all times- and your call history- ant text message you sentPlease, just post it here below this message. Since you have nothing to hide.

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 10:57:48 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on January 17, 2021, 10:15:42 amA worthwhile readhttps://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998565

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 10:59:08 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on January 17, 2021, 10:15:42 amThat's a bit of a generalisation isn't it? I have a reasonable right to privacy as an individual, regardless of the content.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 11:00:21 pm
content: Quote from: AlfBaz on January 17, 2021, 10:57:48 pmYou can find some very interesting and scary talks by the author of that paper, Daniel J. Solove, on Youtube.

author: rfclown
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 11:37:19 pm
content: Fortunately for me, it was easy to switch since I only use WhatsApp for family communication. My family used to use Viber, then someone had a issue when they went overseas... so we switched to WhatsApp. My son posted his issues with WhatsApp's new policy about a week ago, so we jumped to Signal. They are all free services, so I figure I can't complain. It's the internet, and there's always going to be options. And I don't mind paying a small fee.My beef is with paid programs that go south. Different topic, but the biggest one for me that I haven't figured out what to do with is Windows 10. It's now the maleware. Not so easy to switch when I'm invested in some programs that only run on Windows (and test equipment whose software runs on Windows).

author: AlfBaz
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 17, 2021, 11:58:08 pm
content: Quote from: coppice on January 17, 2021, 11:00:21 pmThanks, I'll have a look.

author: Ed.Kloonk
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 12:48:25 am
content: The deeper you go the higher you fly.

author: duckduck
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 03:05:07 am
content: Quote from: SVFeingold on January 13, 2021, 01:05:16 amSignal is in the Apple app store and the Google app place-thing, too. Its combination of good security, low price (free!), and ease of installation are why it is used by millions of people around the world. Best of luck to the folks with the "sideload this APK" app.I also agree with the wrench thing. If a state actor wants you, you have bigger problems than choosing the right instant messenger app. The point of encryption is to make the state have to put in that same work for each person they want to surveille. All the "modern" states bulk-scan and catalog SMS messages. They can't do that with Signal.How wasteddidMichelle get last weekend?

author: vad
author_rank: Frequent Contributor
timestamp: January 18, 2021, 03:31:54 am
content: Quote from: NANDBlog on January 17, 2021, 10:01:18 pmFor those who have something to hide there are things like rubber hose crypto analysis, or 7 years self imprisonment in Ecuadorian Embassy. Other are just dreaming of being James Bonds or Marvins from Red (2010):“- Frank, how many times have I told you? You cannot trust the system! I told you when you're in the system, they switch the flip and you're done. Man, satellites, cell phones, chips, net, the web, the dentist.”

author: voltsandjolts
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: January 24, 2021, 09:43:23 am
content: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/jan/24/is-it-time-to-leave-whatsapp-and-is-signal-the-answerInteresting, I didn't know the WhatsApp founder had concerns with Facebook's intent and then helped fund Signal with $50M.Quote

author: tooki
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: January 31, 2021, 11:06:28 pm
content: Quote from: VK3DRB on January 17, 2021, 10:15:42 amWhich is literallyeverybody, without exception. Weallhave things we hide.Let's pretend everything happened in cleartext. Would you want for a house guest to be able to snoop in on your messaging with your spouse? Would you be OK with a thief knowing when you were going to be out of town, because they listened in on your messaging while you made plans with a friend? What if you were a woman with a stalker ex? Does that suddenly make privacy more important?Consider that seemingly most Internet use these days is on Wi-Fi, whose security is good, but not perfect. And if you're on the same Wi-Fi network (like public Wi-Fi hotspots), you may be able to snoop tons of traffic.Upshot is, crime is but a tiny, tiny, tiny share of the reasons for wanting secure communication. And it's certainly not reason enough to deny all the legitimate uses.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2021, 11:54:13 am
content: Just a follow up on my WhatsApp / Signal / VSee comparison in reply #92....I've given Signal some time now and it seems to have mostly recovered from the surge of new users. I wonder if there will be another surge in mid-Feb when Facebook 'clarify' their WhatApp privacy policy!So what am I left with - I've excluded the Whatsapp and VSee items because nothing has changed (functionally):Android App UI...- Notification ticks seem intermittent, sometimes delivered but only shows one tick.Yep, that was a new user surge issue, now fine.- One case of application hanging (Pixel 4A). Messages shown as delivered (2 ticks) but never arrived or notified, Required Force Stop and run again.No reoccurrence, fine.- Messaging sluggish compared to VSee.Yes, another new user surge issue. Usually fine, occasionally phone notification takes rather longer than desktop app.- Video quality poorer than VSee.Still true (though better), I think VSee just has more efficient video compression.Windows App...- Startup is slow.- If messaging has been happening between phones since it was last run, it can take several minutes downloading messages before you can do anything.The desktop app (itself) is still very slow to startup, compared to other programs. Downloading messages is quicker though (another new user surge issue)- When using a webcam (the reason for using the desktop version in the first place), it only sends a narrow vertical central strip of the camera image to the phone, not the full 4:3 image. There does not seem to be any setting to correct this.Still a ridiculous problem, that makes the desktop app almost pointless. I did a lot of searching and finally found a reference in the Signal forum, to which the answer was pretty much 'Yeah, it does that, we might fix it some day'.- The video that is transmitted and received was poorer quality (detail and smoothness) than VSee.Still the case. As mentioned above, it's just down to video compression - not that it matters when you are fighting each other to get into the central letterbox of the webcam!So where does that leave things. I now (thanks OP) need three apps installed on the phone and two on the laptop. Signal so that I can feel all warm an secure, WhatsApp for the people who are never going to bother switching, and VSee so that we can have sensible webcam video chats with our Son! Hopefully that number won't need to increase any further - unless there's somebody who still insists on using Skype.^ Ok, a little 'tongue in cheek', but it's still a fair representation of a typical usage case.

author: lisarose9
author_rank: Newbie
timestamp: February 01, 2021, 01:00:48 pm
content: It is actually very difficult to complete stop using whatsapp, since all my professional groups are there. But i have actually, revoked all the access permissions to the app. hope that makes a difference.

author: Zero999
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2021, 04:44:47 pm
content: I have WhatsCrap insalled on my phone but hardly ever use it. I have the notifications switched off, because most of the time it's people posting random crap I don't care about, such as what they've eaten for dinner. The main reason why I don't use it much is because every photo I view gets uploaded to my phone's photos folder, which is backed up to the iCloud which gets full, if I don't go through and delete the pictures I don't want to keep, which is labourious.

author: Halcyon
author_rank: Unknown
timestamp: February 01, 2021, 06:45:47 pm
content: Quote from: Gyro on February 01, 2021, 11:54:13 amYou're an enabler. People won't switch because you continue to use it. Once you stop using it and transition away to something else, people will follow. I limit the number of ways people can contact me. Either call or text me (via Signal or traditional cellular network) or email. That's it. No social media, no app bloat, no constant notifications of cat photos from people, just the people who actually want to talk to me. I do use Discord occasionally but that lives on my PC, I don't have it one my phone any more.

author: coppice
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2021, 07:37:46 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 01, 2021, 06:45:47 pmNah, he's just afraid people don't like him enough.Most users of Whatsapp were probably using one of the numerous alternatives before Whatsapp started to achieve dominance. As long as the apps are free and in the app stores, people are only a couple of minutes away from having the next one up and running. As soon as they find key people have moved to a new app, they install the new app. That ishowWhatsapp became so big. The only reason they wouldn't install another app is that nobody of any importance to them requires that app.

author: Gyro
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2021, 07:59:07 pm
content: You two clearly haven't met my sister!She's an avid Facebooker anyway, so won't see what the fuss is about.

author: Circlotron
author_rank: Super Contributor
timestamp: February 01, 2021, 09:04:17 pm
content: Quote from: Halcyon on February 01, 2021, 06:45:47 pmMake the switch and become an *influencer*.