Tanya Sarne: NO reliable sources Edit.pdf ( talk ) 07:49, 14 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Hi there.  I did look to increase the referencing substantially when a BLP flag was raised on 21.04.23, and spent some time looking at online sources for alternatives.  I'm not sure what else can be done, certainly without recourse to paywalled news archives which you would not necessarily be able to verify.  She has done a number of podcast appearances to promote the book, but I sense that wouldn't satisfy the standards you are seeking.  Sarne is a significant figure in British fashion and in my view it would be better to have a page about her rather than no page.  There was no Wiki page before this one was written.  Iangreaves ( talk ) 08:29, 14 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Looks like there's some discussion of Sarne in Style City: How London Became a Fashion Capital (2009) by Robert O'Byrne.   Only one reliable source isn't enough to meet WP:GNG though, and I can't immediately find a second – can anyone else?  Caeciliusinhorto-public ( talk ) 09:32, 14 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Hi.  I've luckily regained access to Newsbank, so I have been able to add a few contemporaneous press references to the main article just now.  Could someone check and see if this is sufficient?  Iangreaves ( talk ) 09:46, 14 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Thanks for the Style City link.  I have added a couple of references (though it does seem to rely on cuttings already accessed).  Iangreaves ( talk ) 09:54, 14 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] @ Iangreaves : I've checked several of the newspaper sources, and they seem to be based on interviews with Sarne and are therefore not independent and don't count towards notability .   It would be helpful if you could list here the best two or three sources which are all three of independent of Sarne, reliable , and in-depth.  Caeciliusinhorto-public ( talk ) 11:01, 14 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] I think the difficulty here is that we are talking about a fashion designer who worked almost exclusively during the age of intensively PR-controlled coverage, so it is hard to see how an in-depth piece (other than a hatchet job or an obituary) would not rely on interviews with the subject.  The tight controlling of an image was completely integral to the outward-facing work of a design company in this era, and fashion journalism is not generally in the habit of writing long company histories or hatchet pieces that would ensure notoriety if not notability.  Sarne was not a controversial figure.  I have used reviews or news reports to substantiate certain elements of the page, such as the buy out of Ghost, the launching of stores, and New York Fashion Week shows.  (see notes 32, 38, 45)  There are 358 results on Newsbank about her from 1989 onwards.  The majority will be either short references (which verify certain claims in her memoir) or interviews.  Iangreaves ( talk ) 11:28, 14 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Have added a few more news sources to the page.  It is now around 50% sources other than the memoir.  Iangreaves ( talk ) 11:53, 14 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Have also added four citations for her awards.  The notes referred to in my 11.28 message are now numbered 32, 39 and 46.  Iangreaves ( talk ) 13:13, 14 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Note:  This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Businesspeople , Women , Fashion ,  and England .  Hey man im josh ( talk ) 12:26, 14 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep : OBE goes a fair way to notability, and the Bookseller source demonstrates it too, amongst other RS.  Formatting of refs needs a bit of a tweak.  Pam D 08:15, 15 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] This from the BBC may help too.  Pam D 08:18, 15 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] That Bookseller source is just regurgitating the marketing spiel of Sarne's publisher; it's not independent.  Loads of people get OBEs - I don't think it's a prestigious enough honour to count towards WP:ANYBIO .   Is the BBC source a discussion of Sarne or an interview with her?  If the former I think that plus the book I mentioned above would probably hit WP:GNG ; if the latter then it's not an independent source and again wouldn't count for notability.  Caeciliusinhorto-public ( talk ) 09:29, 15 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] This by Kirby in RS newspaper looks like independent coverage.  (Ref 47 at present)  Pam D 20:46, 15 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] (Not Wikipedia's Terry Kirby , but a TK who does seems to be a reference for quite a few articles).  Pam D 20:48, 15 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Ah, nice.  That's definitely good.  Caeciliusinhorto ( talk ) 21:48, 15 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep : Style City and "Fashion Queen defrocked: Ghost story" are enough to make me think she meets GNG.  Caeciliusinhorto ( talk ) 21:48, 15 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep : Enough coverage for basic notability. -- Ipigott ( talk ) 09:29, 16 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep . Available sources sufficient to meet WP:GNG . The OBE, while not on its own sufficient to meet WP:ANYBIO , adds to notability. -- Necrothesp ( talk ) 11:27, 16 June 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it.  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review ).  No further edits should be made to this page.

Discussion outcome: keep