Alina Dragnea : — Biruitorul Talk 22:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Note:  This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians , Women ,  and Romania .  WC Quidditch ☎ ✎ 00:03, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete : Very PROMO for a music graduate.  This isn't a site for your CV.  I don't find anything about this individual, [1] all hits are on this unrelated person.  Oaktree b ( talk ) 01:03, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] I am an experienced opera singer from Romania with 10 years experience singing leading roles at opera houses and I have already sung in four opera houses in the country and many projects abroad.  What you suggest is that I am something of a 20 years old graduate with no experience, which cancels my whole life work...  The article simply states my achievements as an artist.  It is not written in a manner of praising, but of informing the public about my career as an artist, with all the details where I have sung and exactly which roles.  I have seen many articles about other romanian opea singers written in a more laudative way.  I have just presented my achievements, with links to the website of the opera houses where it clearly states the production, the whole cast, including my name and all the deatils about the productions.  I have also provided links to the posters for some performances.  I'm not sure why you see it as promo.  If you look at the pages of other romanian opera singers, some of them provided less information than I did and got accepted.  I am not sure what I should change to the article to make it right.  Perhaps you can give me more adivce.  Thank you.  Alina.Mezzo ( talk ) 09:17, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] To give an example.  Working on your judgement.  How are these actors Florence Hunt and Will Tilston eligible for a wikipedia page, judging by the fact that they have not even graduated from an acting university and their experience in the field is just a few episodes, playing a small role in a series and my experience as an opera singer does't count?  Why am I just a graduate who seeks promotion and their articles are ok?  Why are the wiki pages of https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irina_Baian%C8%9B https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvia_Sorina_Munteanu , https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Pascu , https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionel_Voineag https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioan_Hotea just to name a few, allowed to exist and mine has to be deleted?  Most of them are colleagues of mine from when we attended the University of Music in Bucharest or older colleagues from the opera houses in Romania where I am frequently invited.  Why they can keep their page and mine will be deleted?  I have provided just as much or even more information and references than some of them.  It is unjust for me.  Alina.Mezzo ( talk ) 10:51, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Also you wrote that you couldn't find informations about me as an individual...or artist on the internet.  You can find informations about me on operabase, which is the most important platform for opera singers and they verify thoroughly at the opera houses all the informations about the performances and the cast before publishing: https://www.operabase.com/alina-dragnea-a105090/ro , or at the Career Center of the University of Music and Performing Arts Vienna https://www.mdw.ac.at/ccenter/mdwArtists/artist.php? id=53 or here on Brasov Opera House page on Facebook, https://www.facebook.com/operabrasovoficial/photos/invitat%C4%83-pentru-prima-oar%C4%83-pe-scena-operei-bra%C8%99ov-mezzosoprana-alina-dragnea-va-/7317962614941752/? locale=ms_MY&_rdr Also you can find informations on my official website: www.alinadragnea.com Alina.Mezzo ( talk ) 11:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Comment .  If the reviews at the reviews page of her website are from reliable sources, they would contribute towards notability.  Eastmain ( talk • contribs ) 02:56, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Perhaps, but those would need to be verified; the subject can write whatever she wants on her personal site, regardless of veracity.  Biruitorul Talk 05:32, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Here are the links of some very important romanian newspapers, discussing my performances.  I don't see why my wiki page would not be eligible.  https://www.ziaruldeiasi.ro/stiri/spectacolul-excelentei-muzicale-la-iasi-iv-trubadurul-premiera-2--350893.html , https://adevarul.ro/blogurile-adevarul/vedete-actuale-si-viitoare-in-salile-de-spectacol-2336412.html , https://adevarul.ro/blogurile-adevarul/opera-live-in-aer-liber-la-castelul-corvinilor-sau-2108521.html or https://agenda.liternet.ro/articol/25507/Virgil-Oprina/Trubadurul-de-la-Castelul-Corvinilor-la-Opera-Nights-2021.html Alina.Mezzo ( talk ) 09:23, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] I can post the links to https://www.ziaruldeiasi.ro/stiri/spectacolul-excelentei-muzicale-la-iasi-iv-trubadurul-premiera-2--350893.html , https://adevarul.ro/blogurile-adevarul/vedete-actuale-si-viitoare-in-salile-de-spectacol-2336412.html , https://adevarul.ro/blogurile-adevarul/opera-live-in-aer-liber-la-castelul-corvinilor-sau-2108521.html or https://agenda.liternet.ro/articol/25507/Virgil-Oprina/Trubadurul-de-la-Castelul-Corvinilor-la-Opera-Nights-2021.html on my wikipdia page if it helps.  They are well known newspapers from Romania, discussing my performances.  Alina.Mezzo ( talk ) 09:07, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Why other opera singers are entitled to have a wikipedia page and I am not?  What is different about my page?  On their pages I see exactly the same informations: studies, career, roles...  Alina.Mezzo ( talk ) 09:19, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Those are in another language version of wikipedia, we only consider the English one here.  If you feel there are other articles that should not be in wikipedia, feel free to nominate them for deletion.  The other pages present likely have at least three articles in what we consider reliable sources that discuss the individuals, but I have not reviewed them so can't comment.  Oaktree b ( talk ) 13:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] I mentioned other articles on wikipedia, similar to mine, with similar artists, to show that theirs was considered fine, even with less informations than I have provided and mine is to be deleted.  I didn't know that if they are in another language than english, they are not reviewed very strictly.  I don't want the other pages deleted, it's their right to exist and inform people about the artists.  I just think that if some pages with far less information can exist, mine should exist as well and not be deleted.  However I will try to read more about the rules of wikipedia posting.  I am not sure in how much time I can try to make it right until it gets deleted.  Alina.Mezzo ( talk ) 13:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Other language Wikipedias aren't as strict with notability or inclusion criteria as the English one, so what might not qualify for inclusion on the English Wikipedia might be considered notable in other languages.  As Oaktree b says, what articles exist in other language Wikipedias is irrelevant here.  Procyon117 ( talk ) 15:34, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] It is not a laudative autobiography.  It is just facts.  I don's see why it should be deleted.  Alina.Mezzo ( talk ) 09:20, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] How do you know that this article https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionel_Voineag or this https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marina_Krilovici https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irina_Baian%C8%9B https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Pascu https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvia_Sorina_Munteanu just to name a few are not autobiographies?  It is very possible that they themselves have written the informations on their pages.  And it makes sense, because they have all the diplomas, posters from their performances and all the data about themselves.  I don't see why my article has to be deleted, when many other articles about other romanian singers are eligible to exist on wikipedia.  I have posted a reference for every performance that I have sung in by posting a link to the opera house or festival etc where the performance took place, where my name can be found in the cast, as well as what I sang and on which dates, I have posted refernces as links to posters of the events, I have backed up all the information.  It is not an eulogistic article, it is just an informative one, for the public to know my achievements as an artist.  I think deletion of my page is unfair, judging by the fact that other romanian opera singers have wikipedia pages that they may have written themselves and some of them provided less information than I have provided.  And we should all be allowed to have the pages.  Because they are very informative for the public and for the media.  Alina.Mezzo ( talk ) 11:00, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete : This article is linking mentions of the singer as if that establishes notability, but this standard would enable everyone on a playbill to qualify for an article.  It's possible that WP:NOTABILITY could be met, but it's not been established here.  For @ Alina.Mezzo , you need to see the WP:WP:NOTABOUTYOU and WP:COI .  You aren't a reliable source for establishing your own notability, and it may be possible for you to demonstrate it with sources but "Why do they get one and I don't?" will always be met with our notability and sourcing standards.  Nobody is trying to denigrate your success with this, but it reads promotionally to a lot of people here.  Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 13:06, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Thank you for your reply.  I will read more about the rules of posting an article on wikipedia.  From a logical point of view I thought that referencing most of the performances and informations in the article, is what establishes notability.  I still fail to understand the promotional ideology regarding my article.  All articles about opera singers mention the studies that they have, the awards, the performances...exactly the kind of informations that I have provided and are not considered promotional.  For example this wiki article : Valentina Nafornița shows exactly the studies, the performances and the awards and other notable facts about this singer.  Why her wiki page is not promotional?  It even promotes her album.  I'm asking why the information on her page is not considered promo and mine is.  It's almost exactly the same type of information.  I don't understand the reason.  I will read all about wp and wp:coi and I'll try to fulfill all the required informations.  I am not sure how much time I have to do the research until the page gets deleted.  Thank you!  Alina.Mezzo ( talk ) 14:03, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] I still fail to understand the promotional ideology regarding my article.  There's no ideology, and you need to read WP:BLUDGEON and take a bit of a step back from this AfD, I think we all understand your perspective here, respectfully.  You need to establish notability per Wikipedia's standards, not just point at other articles.  And the above singer has coverage from the BBC, for example.  There may be promotional-looking material in there that needs to be removed, but the standards are based off of WP:NOTABILITY and WP:RS , not what other articles have.  Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 15:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Regarding WP:Bludgeon, I didn't attempt to force any point of view.  I was discussing.  It's simple for somebody to suggest the deletion of the page in a few words.  I needed to state my logic on this matter so I needed more words to bring more arguments.  I am new to wikipedia.  I thought I have to respond to every editor and discuss the matter.  I have read on WP:Notability that I need to put in the article sources independent of myself.  The websites from the opera houses and the websites from the newspapers are independent of me. I have no other information, apart from the official websites of opera houses and newspapers.  If those are not good enough, there's no point in trying to edit the page anymore.  I have tried to read all the articles about posting but it is simply too much information to comprehend about using this website and every page or term leads to another so I will simply stop trying.  You can delete the page.  Alina.Mezzo ( talk ) 17:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Nobody is trying to run you off Wikipedia, and I don’t think anyone was trying to give you too much to read intentionally, but not making an article about yourself is a pretty important norm on Wikipedia, as is not turning a discussion page not going your way into a debate.  I understand where you’re coming from here, but unless you can meet the independent sourcing standards for notability then it doesn’t matter too much what the discussion actually ends up being.  If you think you can provide those sources that may change some minds here, but not much else will.  I do hope you’ll consider sticking around and helping improve some of the other opera articles after a little bit of learning the rules and norms of Wikipedia, though.  I imagine it’s not a topic we get much expertise on here.  Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 06:51, 13 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete .  Not only is it an autobiography, which constitues a conflict of interest , but the formatting and bolding aren't really helping here either.  Procyon117 ( talk ) 15:32, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Anybody that would write my biography would write the absolute same informations: the universities from where I have gratuated, the roles that I have sung and at which operas and the prizes that I have been awarded with.  It's not like I have written the information from my point of view or something that is too appreciative about me.  It's just facts.  I don't know what you mean by the formattin.  I have followed the same structure of any page of any person that I have seen before: introduction, studies, career, etc and regarding bolding, I didn't know I shouldn't use it.  I don't know how am I supposed to know these things.  When I made the accound I have just seen a blank page and some tools and I started writing.  I do not wish to go on with this article.  I feel that I am forced to prove myself for no reason, when all I did was state some facts.  Alina.Mezzo ( talk ) 17:15, 12 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it.  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review ).  No further edits should be made to this page.

Discussion outcome: delete