DemoCrisis: /in-depth coverage in RS, Fwiw, this article is created by a SPA WillyEaaa Saqib ( talk ) 15:26, 13 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Note:  This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politics , Israel , Europe , Hungary ,  and Poland .  - My, oh my!  (Mushy Yank) 16:29, 13 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep : Has been covered in independent reliable periodicals (in depth and directly): Haaretz ( https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-15/ty-article/.premium/this-catastrophe-proves-the-democracy-movements-importance/0000018b-334e-d1bc-a58b-7befc67b0000 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-03/ty-article/.premium/civil-society-in-israel-poland-and-hungary-team-up-to-defend-democracy/0000018a-f400-d3af-a3ce-f5c215bd0000 ), The Jerusalem Post (quoted currently in the article).  So that it does meet the general requirements for notability.  - My, oh my!  (Mushy Yank) 16:29, 13 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Mushy Yank , Per WP:MULTSOURCES The appearance of different articles in the same newspaper is still one source (one publisher) And even with coverage in The Jerusalem Post , it falls short of meeting the GNG as well WP:SIRS.  — Saqib ( talk ) 16:31, 13 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] The Jerusalem Post and Haaretz (choose the article you like best from Haaretz ) are not the same periodical.  Far from it! :D) - My, oh my!  (Mushy Yank) 16:34, 13 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Sorry, how does any of the 3 articles fall(s) short of meeting (....) WP:SIRS ?  Both newspapers are  1) independent,  2) considered reliable on WP;  3) the coverage is significant and  4) the articles are secondary sources .  So why does this movement not meet GNG then?  - My, oh my!  (Mushy Yank) 16:45, 13 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Mushy Yank , Well, given that the author WillyEaaa has been found engaging in UPE as confirmed here , so I don't even feel the need to argue whether this meets GNG or not.  — Saqib ( talk ) 16:53, 13 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] ! !!!!!!!! - My, oh my!  (Mushy Yank) 17:13, 13 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Comment : For what it's worth, this same author WillyEaaa also created a BLP on Dan Sobovitz , the founder of DemoCrisis, and it was noted that the @WillyEaaa is engaged in UPE, so it's very likely that this article is also a PAID job.  Saqib ( talk ) 16:37, 13 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Courtesy @ Alpha3031 : who also flagged this page earlier.  — Saqib ( talk ) 16:49, 13 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete : "International" means Europe and Israel in this case.  The movement is unknown in North America (and based on the lack of sourcing, I'm assuming everywhere else).  The UPE (twice 'round) is another red flag, this is PROMO.  There is no sourcing I'd consider about this "group", it appears to be a SYNTH.  Oaktree b ( talk ) 20:33, 13 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] ??  International means across different countries!  Yes Poland and Hungary are in Europe and Israel is in the Middle-East, and neither is in America yet.  True.  But do you have a problem with that?  Shall we delete every page related to those regions?  Good luck.  Ping me when you have a consensus.  And "unknown in North America".... .  how would you know and how would it matter?   Notability is based on significant coverage in reliable sources not on the assumption that no one in North America reads Haaretz or The Jerusalem Post , that are widely considered some of the most notable newspapers in Israel.  Lack of sourcing?  No sourcing??  Please do read the page and this discussion again.... .As for promotional intent, no idea, feel free to correct any phrasing or wording you find inappropriate.... - My, oh my!  (Mushy Yank) 21:23, 13 June 2024 (UTC) (PS. .Added article In Politico (:D) with 3 paragraphs on the movement.  .... ) [ reply ] Correct, sourcing is about various small groups, not about this confederation of groups.  This is a European event at this point with Israel stuck on for good measure.  Oaktree b ( talk ) 23:16, 13 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] I don't understand your comment.  2 major newspapers (+ Politico) cover THIS movement in 3 articles, and it is referred to under its name.  What small groups that would not be this confederation are you referring to?  In what sources?  - My, oh my!  (Mushy Yank) 06:27, 14 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] And I know because I'm in North America, and media here hasn't covered it.  See for yourself [29] or [30] and Mexico for good measure [31] .  A re-hashed PR item isn't really what we're looking for.  Oaktree b ( talk ) 23:22, 13 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Oaktree b , I don't see the point of debating whether this meets GNG or not.  This article was clearly created in violation of WP's TOU.  — Saqib ( talk ) 14:10, 14 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Understood, I'm wondering if this AfD could be closed at this point.  Oaktree b ( talk ) 16:25, 14 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] No .  No .  Sorry but the nominator's deliberate lack of response to the issue they themselves raised and commented is at the very least misleading and so is the way they justify their refusal with repeating their comment about potential paid contributions: the COI/Paid contributions issue does not change the fact that we're discussing content here, not investigating behaviour.  Sources show the page does not meet deletion for promotional content (if that is what the nominator has in mind, but not sure, as they didn't elaborate any further).  Quite the opposite, as it does appear the subject does seem to meet the requirements for notability, see above and below.  So, no, the Afd cannot be speedy-closed now, unless nomination is withdrawn and everyone agrees the subject is notable, but I suppose that is not what you had in mind.  That would be the only way to allow an early close so far, imv, though.  But both nominator and you might know that by now since the nominator has asked this elsewhere, in a discussion where you also were active, so I that should suppose you've read it (:D) and you both probably simply didn't update your comments. .... So although this is technically a reply, I am rather mentioning this so that the closer and other users should not waste too much time on that part of the discussion.  - My, oh my!  (Mushy Yank) 19:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Mushy Yank , I suggest you focus this discussion on the article itself, rather than on the nominator.  — Saqib ( talk ) 20:02, 14 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] That's exactly what I thought I was doing and was only mentioning the nominator's lack of response, to explain that what they had said was misleading.  I did so so that other users should indeed not be misled to believe that this discussion was over, that notability was not the issue or that this could be early-closed.  Sorry if I gave the nominator the impression that I was focusing on their person.  But I thank you all the same for your suggestion and time.  - My, oh my!  (Mushy Yank) 20:31, 14 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Note:  This discussion has been included in the list of Belgium-related deletion discussions .  Saqib ( talk ) 20:36, 13 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Comment : It appears the "manifesto" (for lack of a better word) was sent out to various media outlets, none of which seem to have picked it up.  [32] is all there is, outside of the two sources from Israel.  This reads as pretty much a rehashing of the same news/PR item mentioned above.  I'm still not seeing notability.  Oaktree b ( talk ) 23:19, 13 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] So, it's not notable on the English Wikipedia because it is "unknown in North America (...) and everywhere else" because American media haven't covered it, and despite the fact that 2 major Israeli newspapers have covered it (one, twice)?  OK.  That's what I thought.  - My, oh my!  (Mushy Yank) 06:45, 14 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] The same story in both papers, yes, that's one source.  Oaktree b ( talk ) 11:57, 14 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] ? ??? Jerusalem Pos t= one newspaper, one article.  Haaretz = one (very different) newspaper, with two different articles.  That's three articles, which, if you wish, you can count as coming from 2 different sources only, but not 1!  Add Politico (which was not an Israeli website last time I checked and is owned by an....American group:D), 3 paragraphs.  You can turn this the way you want but you cannot count only one source.  - My, oh my!  (Mushy Yank) 13:48, 14 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Mushy Yank , OK allow me evaluate the coverage you provided to address your doubts - Haaretz is behind a paywall, so I can't access those articles.  However, I've reviewed the coverage from Jerusalem Post and Politico, and both fail to meet the GNG.  The Jerusalem Post coverage is based on an interview, which does not qualify as independent coverage.  While the Politico coverage is merely a WP:TRIVIALMENTION and does not provide the in-depth, significant coverage needed to establish GNG.You've participated in hundreds of AfDs, so by now you should at the very minimum know that we don't rely on TRIVIALMENTION as well interview-based coverage to establish GNG.  Are you purposefully insisting that the article meets GNG, despite it clearly falling short?  Well I see it as WP:DISRUPTIVE and WP:TIMESINK, then.  Allow me repeat GNG requires strong, independent sourcing that offers in-depth information about the subject and neither of these coverage meets that standard.  Feel free to ask if there's anything else you'd like me to clarify, so that you can stop from labeling my nomination as misleading .  — Saqib ( talk ) 21:02, 14 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] I am not calling your nomination misleading .  Your comments about the fact that discussing notability was not needed (and your sudden lack of response to replies I had made to your comments on my !vote and comments) were , as anyone can now verify, but I sincerely don't think that was on purpose, and thanks for clarifying that point.  As for your assessment of the sources, I pretty much disagree with everything you say ( The JP article is presenting excerpts from an interview only in its second half and Politico has 3 paragraphs on the movement; although the article in Politico is a bit unclear).  Regarding your other comments (disruptive, timesink), allow me to sigh again (the time sink accusation might prove a double-edged sword) but feel free to raise the issue elsewhere, if believing that what I find to be multiple reliable sources offering significant coverage is enough for notability, and daring to ! vote accordingly and explain why when my ! vote is commented (by you, as it is your habit when a !vote does not go your way) is not allowed when you have decided something is not notable.  - My, oh my!  (Mushy Yank) 21:46, 14 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Look I've no interest in raise the issue elsewhere as it doesn't concern me greatly.  You've stated your case, I've made mine, so there's no need to prolong this debate.  If it's my habit to argue when a ! vote does not go my way, it should be yours as well so let's avoid pointing fingers at each other.  I leave this discussion to others to decide the fate of an article on a non-notable subject created by a confirmed UPE .  See you around!  Saqib ( talk ) 22:00, 14 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.  Relisting comment: Relisting.  Whether or not the article creator was/is an SPA or a paid editor doesn't mean an article should be deleted, it's not grounds of deletion.  If you believe so, please quote the policy that states this.  What matters is whether this article subject meets GNG or NCORP which is based on the quality of the sourcing.  If there are factors of the article that can be improved by editing, they should be.  Also, an article subject doesn't have to internationally important to be considered notable.  Please focus on notability of the subject and existing sources establishing this, not who created the article (unless they are a block-evading sockpuppet).  Please add new comments below this notice.  Thanks, L iz Read!  Talk!  16:42, 20 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep .  I agree with Mushy_Yank about the validity of the two Ha'aretz, the JPost and the Politico item for WP:NORG , and there is also mildly critical coverage in a Hungarian news magazine .  It's not a lot, and I do think it started as overly promotional and could use more balance, but it does clear the threshold set in NORG.  Dclemens1971 ( talk ) 23:43, 20 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete clearly fails WP:NORG , along with the UPE concerns.  I have no idea how two brief mentions in sentences in the Politico article can be considered SIGCOV, and the other articles are close to press release regurgitations.  SportingFlyer T · C 12:11, 23 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.  Relisting comment: Keep or delete?  Please add new comments below this notice.  Thanks, CycloneYoris talk!  04:23, 28 June 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it.  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review ).  No further edits should be made to this page.

Discussion outcome: no consensus