Serene Oasis: Very low-quality article and no one seems to be willing to improve it.  If it is notable then someone can start fresh after WP:TNT .  But the article gives no indication of notability.  Already nominated Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Serene_Oasis but no consensus.  Polygnotus ( talk ) 05:53, 22 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Hong Kong-related deletion discussions .  Polygnotus ( talk ) 05:53, 22 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Update: The article has changed a LOT from when I first found it.  Retracting AfD.  Polygnotus ( talk ) 00:35, 26 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep: Delete: Keep : (Article was rewritten to include good sources and have better writing; see Cunard's comment) The one vote for keep by @ Philg88 on the previous nomination, and his point that there are good citations, simply that they are chinese, which is completely fine, is valid.  I agree that the article is very poorly written, and has some sounding-like-an-ad issues, but this doesn't automatically mean it should be blown up, just that it needs some rewriting.  (good)  Citations not being in English and poor or non-encyclopedic writing do not exempt an article from passing NORG.  Flemmish Nietzsche ( talk ) 13:44, 22 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] @ Flemmish Nietzsche : So you believe that anyone can dump a very low quality article on the English Wikipedia, and we should never get rid of the trash because in theory it could be improved (despite the fact that no one has even after 3351 days)?  You pinged Philg88 but they have not edited in the last 1780 days.  That is not logical.  Do you understand Chinese?  If so, please improve the article.  If not, how are you so sure that it passes NORG?  You would need more than a quick Google Translate to judge the reliability of a source.  Polygnotus ( talk ) 14:45, 22 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Obviously not.  While this article has some bad writing and promotional material, there is plenty of salvageable content — saying an article is badly written alone is not a good argument.  If an article has enough good content to the extent that it would be able to remain on its own if the promotional content were removed, the article should not be deleted in its entirety.  (if it would not be deleted under G11 )  And no, I don't understand Chinese, but while Chinese sources may only exist for the company itself, when doing a search for the term there's plenty of English-language sources about the horticulture method itself rather than the company that started the concept, which the article's main topic could certainly shift to.  Flemmish Nietzsche ( talk ) 19:07, 22 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Weird, I don't see plenty of salvageable content .  Or any.  In an AfD, when saying that there's plenty of English-language sources it would be helpful to actually list them.  And perhaps then we can incorporate information from those alleged sources into the article.  And get rid of the current content.  So do you believe that when someone writes a very low quality article we should not delete it and should be forced to rewrite it instead?  What if we don't want to write an article about that topic?  What if the article is actually about a non-notable organization and not about a horticulture method?  If someone wants to write an article about a horticultural method it would be better to start fresh.  Which search engine are you using?  I use Google and I can't find evidence of any horticultural method called Serene Oasis.  Polygnotus ( talk ) 19:20, 22 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Sorry, didn't see this until now, but no, as I said before, a poorly written article does not deserve to be rewritten to be a good article just because someone created it.  I wasn't really saying we have to rewrite the article at all, just remove the content relating to the company rather than the horticulture method.  There's a sample of what this might look like on my sandbox , and of the sources mentioning a serene oasis I saw, (originally using Searx but this time using Google) most were just non-reliable blogs, but there are at least two here: [9] [10] Flemmish Nietzsche ( talk ) 02:39, 25 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] @ Flemmish Nietzsche : Thank you.  I think I understand now; what you describe is not a horticultural method.  It is a form of therapy called horticulture therapy .  But we already have an article about that.  The Chinese characters near the start of the article, 基督教家庭服務中心, translate to "Christian Family Service Center" and not "Serene Oasis".  Polygnotus ( talk ) 09:39, 25 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] I know it's not a horticultural method, it says in the lead that it is a method of horticulture therapy.  The use of the two sources I provided were really dependent on whether or not the article would stick to the primary topic of the company rather than the horticulture therapy method; the SCMP source would of course be for if it were not rewritten.  I wasn't able to find any additional sources on the Hong Kong company itself though, so for sake of not wanting to argue more, I'll say to just blow it all up and someone can start the article over as being about the horticulture therapy method if they wish.  Flemmish Nietzsche ( talk ) 09:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete : A fabric distributor/art shop and an AirBnB using this name are what I can find in my search.  What's used now for sourcing in the article isn't acceptable, sources 4 and 9 are red per Cite Highlighter, so non-RS.  Rest isn't helping much either.  We could perhaps draft this, but if it's not been worked on in the last decade after being tagged, drafting won't help.  Oaktree b ( talk ) 15:08, 22 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete Keep : @ Flemmish Nietzsche : May I request for some potential Chinese sources?  Philg88 simply mentioned that there were Chinese sources in the previous AFD, but provided none as example.  I just did a search in Chinese (I can read Chinese) but nothing came up.  I could only find some sources with glancing mentions of the Christian Family Service Centre (including several from unreliable sources like Epoch Times ), and none of them have mentioned this Serene Oasis garden thing.  Meanwhile, the SCMP source you raised is fine, but the Fine Gardening one doesn't seem like referring to the subject of this article (a therapeutic garden opened by the Christian Family Service Centre in Hong Kong), it is about something else.  So at this point of the discussion, I can only see one source with SIGCOV, and it hardly passes GNG.  — Prince of Erebor （ The Book of Mazarbul ） 08:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Prince of Erebor ( talk · contribs ) and Flemmish Nietzsche ( talk · contribs ), I've posted some sources below.  Thank you.  Cunard ( talk ) 11:01, 25 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources .  Serene Oasis, which reliable sources have described as a "garden", falls under Wikipedia:Notability (geographic features)#Scope , which says: For the purpose of this guideline, a geographical feature is any reasonably permanent or historic feature of the Earth , whether natural or artificial.  The subject passes Wikipedia:Notability (geographic features) , which says: Notability on Wikipedia is an inclusion criterion based on the encyclopedic suitability of an article topic.  Geographical features meeting Wikipedia's General notability guideline (GNG) are presumed , but not guaranteed, to be notable.  Therefore, the notability of some geographical features ( places , roadways, objects, etc.) may be called into question.  Sources Extended content Lo, Wei (2013-05-15).  "The serene urban garden that helps the vulnerable to grow in confidence" .  South China Morning Post .  Archived from the original on 2024-05-25 .  Retrieved 2024-05-25 .  The article notes: "A "Serene Oasis" of scented herbs and colourful flowers is being opened to the public after proving successful in helping people deal with mental and emotional problems. Operators of the 7,000 sq ft garden next to housing estates in urban Choi Hung say caring for the plants and meeting others with similar problems has proved healing for people with dementia and depression during a two-year trial. ... The garden, named "Serene Oasis", has more than 60 plant species and is designed to create a peaceful feeling. It is surrounded by trees with sounds from a small waterfall and chirping birds. Scents of herbs like rosemary and lemongrass linger in different parts of the garden. Some of the flower beds are elevated for wheelchair users."  Yim, Man-wai 嚴敏慧 (2013-05-15).  "7,000呎綠洲　種花醫病 憂鬱腦退化患者　92%好轉" [7,000 sq. ft. oasis, planting flowers to heal patients, 92% of patients with depression and dementia improved].  Apple Daily (in Chinese).  p.  A21.  The article notes: "基督教家庭服務中心在彩虹坪石鄒附近，建立市區最大園藝治療花園「心靈綠洲」。 7,000平方呎的花園設五感體驗區，種有逾百種植物，特設高架花槽方便輪椅人士種花。... 佔地7,000平方呎的花園組合為五感體驗區，例如觸覺係有到手香，其特徵為葉肥厚有絨毛，手指輕輕觸摸會留有香味；而味覺係則主要為食用瓜菜，為迎合本土 口味，也特別種植蔥、薑等；視覺則有色彩斑斕的花朵如多色日日春、五星花等；嗅覺系則有九層塔及香茅等；聽覺則為被環境吸引到來的小鳥及昆蟲 。" From Google Translate: "The Christian Family Service Center has established the largest horticultural therapy garden "Spiritual Oasis" in the city near Shek Chow, Choi Hung Ping. The 7,000-square-foot garden has a five-sense experience area with more than 100 species of plants, and specially equipped elevated planters to facilitate people in wheelchairs to plant flowers. ... The garden covering an area of ​​7,000 square feet is a five-sense experience area. For example, the tactile category includes hand fragrance, which is characterised by thick and fluffy leaves that leave fragrance when lightly touched by fingers; while the gustatory category mainly involves edible vegetables. In order to cater to local tastes, green onions, ginger, etc. are also specially planted; for the visual sense, there are colorful flowers such as multi-colored spring flowers, five-star flowers, etc.; for the olfactory sense, there are nine-story pagodas, lemongrass, etc.; and for the auditory sense, there are small flowers attracted by the environment. Birds and insects."  Lee, Yue-wah 李越樺 (2016-01-02).  "親子園藝花園" [Parent-child gardening garden].  Hong Kong Economic Times (in Chinese).  p.  C2.  The article notes: "筆者早前有機會參觀基督教家庭服務中心位於彩虹的「都市綠洲」，這塊原本已荒置了十多年的土地，現時以植物作為媒介，推行園藝治療服務，不但綠化環境，更讓平日工作 忙碌的家長、... 筆者最欣賞其「心靈綠洲」園區，其體驗區以六感元素為準則，種植過百種植物，如觸感似地毯的波斯草、感覺膠質的海棠、毛毛的到手香……香味的植物如 檸檬草、迷迭香、薄荷葉等。 一邊觀賞色彩斑斕的植物、流水牆傳來潺潺的流水聲，一家大小更可一邊採摘植物沖水，泡杯檸檬香草茶。" From Google Translate: "The author had the opportunity to visit the "Serene Oasis" of the Christian Family Service Center in Choi Hung earlier. This land, which had been abandoned for more than ten years, now uses plants as a medium to provide horticultural therapy services, which not only greens the environment, but also makes daily work easier. Busy parents,... The author admires its "Serene Oasis" park the most. Its experience area is based on the six sense elements and has over a hundred kinds of plants planted, such as Persian grass that feels like a carpet, Begonia that feels gelatinous, and fluffy hand-made plants. Fragrant... Fragrant plants such as lemongrass, rosemary, mint leaves, etc.  While admiring the colorful plants and the sound of gurgling water coming from the flowing water wall, the whole family can pick plants to drink water and make a cup of lemongrass tea." "東網透視：園藝治療建綠洲　遠離塵囂煩心事" [Oriental Daily Insight: Horticulture therapy creates an oasis to stay away from the hustle and bustle of the world].  Oriental Daily (in Chinese).  2015-11-21.  Archived from the original on 2024-05-25 .  Retrieved 2024-05-25 .  The article notes: "基督教家庭服務中心將這原理轉移到治療情緒，在市區開設了一片「心靈綠洲」，通過植物作媒介開展園藝治療，透過種植及觀賞等活動，幫助受困的參加者心靈產生正能量。" From Google Translate: "The Christian Family Service Center has transferred this principle to the treatment of emotions and opened a "spiritual oasis" in the urban area. It uses plants as a medium to carry out horticultural therapy. Through activities such as planting and viewing, it helps trapped participants generate positive energy in their hearts."  The article notes: "這塊公開予市民參與的園藝治療花園至今已服務近300名參加者。基督教家庭服務中心高級服務總監周淑琼表示，園藝治療在香港是一個較新的概念，這片位處彩虹佔地約6000平方呎的「心靈綠洲」，現正提供園藝治療服務予患有腦退化症的長者、抑鬱症患者及自閉症患者等，治療服務屬輔助性質，以小組進行，每組不超過10名參加者，整個治療分6至8節進行，每節約個半小時。" From Google Translate: "This horticultural therapeutic garden, which is open to public participation, has served nearly 300 participants so far. Christian Family Service Center Senior Service Director Zhou Shuqiong said that horticultural therapy is a relatively new concept in Hong Kong. This "spiritual oasis" located in Choi Hung covering an area of ​​about 6,000 square feet is now providing horticultural therapy services to people with dementia. For the elderly, patients with depression, patients with autism, etc., the treatment service is of a auxiliary nature and is conducted in groups, with no more than 10 participants in each group. The entire treatment is divided into 6 to 8 sessions, each session is half an hour."  Yuen, Oi-chee 袁藹慈 (2018-03-03).  "開花結果　治癒心靈" [Bloom and bear fruit, heal the soul].  Ming Pao (in Chinese).  p.  D1.  The article notes: "彩虹坪石鄒對面有片逾七萬英尺的地方，基督教家庭服務中心取名為都市綠洲，並將其中約七千英尺劃為心靈綠洲，種有不同植物和花卉，用作園藝治療場地。... 心靈綠洲以外的地方，予大眾參觀，大家又可租地一嘗城市農夫滋味" From Google Translate: "There is an area of ​​more than 70,000 feet opposite Choi Hung Ping Shek Tsou. The Christian Family Service Center named it Urban Oasis and designated about 7,000 feet of it as a spiritual oasis. It is planted with different plants and flowers and used as a horticultural therapy site. ... Apart from the spiritual oasis, the place is open to the public, and everyone can rent land to have a taste of urban farming."  Wang, Ng-hin 王卓軒 (2014-05-06).  "團體出書推廣園藝治療" [Group publishes book to promote horticultural therapy].  Hong Kong Commercial Daily (in Chinese).  p.  A14.  The article notes: "基督教家庭服務中心於2010年在九龍建立香港市區內最大的園藝治療花園，在過去3年已經為971人提供治療服務，當中有892人是抑鬱症或 腦退化症患者，中心將相關經驗編輯成書並於昨日發布，為社工及業界人士提供園藝治療操作指導。... 集結了相關學者的理論，以及過去3年在本港推廣園藝治療經驗的《園藝治療實務工作手冊》於昨日發布。該書作者羅迪 ..."  From Google Translate: "Christian Family Service Center established Hong Kong's largest horticulture therapy garden in Kowloon in 2010. In the past three years, it has provided treatment services to 971 people, 892 of whom were patients with depression or dementia. The center compiled relevant experience A book was written and released yesterday to provide guidance on horticulture therapy for social workers and industry professionals. The "Horticulture Therapy Practical Work Manual", which brings together the theories of relevant scholars and the experience of promoting horticulture therapy in Hong Kong over the past three years, was released yesterday. Luo Di, the author of the book ..."  The article notes: "位於九龍觀塘道2號A的園藝治療花園「心靈綠洲」，是本港首個提供園藝治療訓練及服務場地。 園區內設有以視覺、聽覺、觸覺、味覺及嗅覺五種感官元素的體驗區，栽種逾百種各色各樣植物，為有需要人士提供治療服務。" From Google Translate: "The horticultural therapy garden "Serene Oasis" located at 2A Kwun Tong Road, Kowloon is the first venue in Hong Kong to provide horticultural therapy training and services. The park has an experience area with five sensory elements: sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell. More than 100 kinds of plants are planted to provide therapeutic services to those in need." "7000呎花園治情緒病" [7,000-square-foot garden cures emotional illness].  Hong Kong Daily News [ zh ] (in Chinese).  2013-05-15.  p.  A6.  The article notes: "鳥語花香，的確令人心礦神怡，基督教家庭服務中心在九龍灣開設佔地7,000平方呎的園藝治療花園「心靈綠洲」，輔助治療腦退化症及情緒病病人，透過種植中 誘發參與者紓發情緒，並藉此改善情緒控制、提升專注力、加強社交能力。" From Google Translate: "The singing of birds and the fragrance of flowers are indeed soothing. The Christian Family Service Center has opened a 7,000-square-foot horticultural therapy garden "Serene Oasis" in Kowloon Bay to assist in the treatment of patients with Alzheimer's disease and emotional illness. Through planting, It induces participants to relieve their emotions, thereby improving their emotional control, concentration and social skills."  The article notes: "此外，花園設五感體驗區，以五感設計元素設計，分別種有過百種不同植物，例如有觸碰後手指會有香味的到手香等，帶給病人五官上的刺激，減輕病情引致的認 知能力衰退。" From Google Translate: "In addition, the garden has a five-sense experience area, which is designed with five-sense design elements. There are more than a hundred different plants planted there, such as hand incense that will smell fragrant when touched, which can stimulate the patient's five senses and reduce the cognitive impairment caused by the disease. Intellectual ability declines."  Lau, Sze-nok 劉思諾 (2013-05-15).  "城中墾綠洲 患者開心扉" [Opening an oasis in the city makes patients happy].  Sky Post [ zh ] (in Chinese).  p.  P28.  The article notes: "基督教家庭服務中心2010年起，在觀塘道開設佔地7,000平方呎的園藝治療花園—「心靈綠洲」，過去已為856人提供治療，當中超過九成患憂鬱症及腦退化症。" From Google Translate: "Since 2010, Christian Family Service Center has opened a 7,000-square-foot horticultural therapeutic garden - "Soul Oasis" on Kwun Tong Road. It has provided treatment to 856 people in the past, more than 90% of whom suffered from depression and dementia."  Yeung, Tak-ming 楊德銘 (2013-05-15).  "鬧市建「心靈綠洲」" [Building "Serene Oasis" in a busy city].  Ming Pao Daily News (in Chinese).  The article notes: "基督教家庭服務中心3年前首度在該處引進園藝治療，建立「心靈綠洲」花園。踏進花園，受助的長者會被多達60種色彩繽紛的植物包圍，鳥鳴蟬叫，香氣四溢。 受助者可觸摸植物，部分植物如薄荷、香草等更能即場摘食，滿足味覺。 共6至8節的園藝治療過程中，輔導人員會透過園林景緻，利用五官感受引導約8名受助者抒發情緒，排解煩憂。" From Google Translate: "Christian Family Service Center introduced horticultural therapy to the site for the first time three years ago and established the "Serene Oasis" garden. Stepping into the garden, the elderly recipients will be surrounded by as many as 60 kinds of colorful plants, with birds chirping and cicadas chirping, and the fragrance overflowing.  Recipients can touch the plants, and some plants such as mint and herbs can be picked and eaten on the spot to satisfy their taste buds.  During a total of 6 to 8 sessions of horticultural therapy, counselors will use the garden scenery and five senses to guide about 8 recipients to express their emotions and resolve their worries." "園藝治療腦退化與憂鬱患者" [Horticulture therapy for patients with brain degeneration and depression].  Sing Pao Daily News (in Chinese).  2013-05-15.  p.  A13.  The article notes: "有機構把市區一塊荒置土地開闢成一個有意義的社會計畫－「心靈綠洲」(Serene Oasis)，首階段的主要對象為患有腦退化症的長者和憂鬱症患者，" From Google Translate: "An organization has developed a piece of abandoned land in the urban area into a meaningful social project - "Serene Oasis" (Serene Oasis), the main target of the first phase for the elderly with dementia and patients with depression," The article notes: "這項工作由基督教家庭服務中心開拓，「心靈綠洲」位於九龍觀塘道2號A，佔地約7000平方呎，是市區內最大的園藝治療花園，也是首個同時提供園藝治療訓練及 服務的場地，園區綠樹環抱、鳥語花香，內設五感體驗區，以五感元素設計，種植了過百種不同的植物。" From Google Translate: "This work was developed by the Christian Family Service Centre. The "Spiritual Oasis" is located at 2A Kwun Tong Road, Kowloon, covering an area of ​​about 7,000 square feet. It is the largest horticultural therapy garden in the city and the first to provide both horticultural therapy training and services. The venue is surrounded by green trees, with birds singing and flowers fragrant. There is a five-sense experience area, designed with five-sense elements, and more than a hundred different plants planted."  Less significant coverage: "Large urban farm in east Kowloon set to open in March" .  South China Morning Post .  2014-01-07.  Archived from the original on 2024-05-25 .  Retrieved 2024-05-25 .  The article discusses phase 2 of the project, Urban Oasis.  The article has a paragraph about phase 1 of the project, Serene Oasis.  The article notes: "Phase 1 of the project, “Serene Oasis”, was opened in May 2013. It provides horticultural therapy, which includes communal planting and learning activities for people suffering from dementia and depression. The centre has also reserved a 20,000 square-feet plot for phase 3 of the project." "都市綠洲 治癒心靈" [Urban Oasis. Heals the soul].  Hong Kong Inmedia (in Chinese).  2016-06-03.  Archived from the original on 2024-05-01 .  Retrieved 2024-05-25 .  This is another article about phase 2 of the project, Urban Oasis.  The article notes: "「都市綠洲」將開拓旁邊的一塊約二萬呎空地，讓更多市民可以成為都市農夫，以及繼續發展「心靈綠洲」園藝治療服務，給予新的服務使用者，例如：殘疾人士及有特殊學習需要學童等。" From Google Translate: ""Urban Oasis" will open up a vacant land of about 20,000 square feet next to it, allowing more citizens to become urban farmers, and continue to develop "Spiritual Oasis" horticultural therapy services to provide new service users, such as people with disabilities and people with special learning Need school children etc. " There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Serene Oasis ( traditional Chinese : 心靈綠洲 ; simplified Chinese : 心灵绿洲 ) to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline , which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard ( talk ) 11:01, 25 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] @ Cunard : Are you willing to turn this into a decent Wikipedia article? Because the current content is so bad that the notability question is moot; it should still be deleted per WP:TNT . No one has bothered trying to improve the article in many years. If you are willing and able to improve it it should be userfied. I have added a collapse template to increase readability. Polygnotus ( talk ) 11:32, 25 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Oh, I get it. The Chinese translation name in the article is wrong, it should be 心靈綠洲. No wonder why I could only find sources in English. Anyway, I took a look at the sources with linked articles Cunard provided, the Oriental Daily News and Hong Kong Inmedia ones are interviews of the Service Centre's staff and look like advertisements. I also think that Polygnotus has made a point, the article was left unattended for about nine years, and the current quality is low. Perhaps we can consider draftifying it? — Prince of Erebor （ The Book of Mazarbul ） 18:14, 25 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Yeah the Chinese characters near the start of the article, 基督教家庭服務中心, translate to "Christian Family Service Center" and not "Serene Oasis" for some reason. I am not sure if the Christian Family Service Center is notable. Polygnotus ( talk ) 18:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] @ Prince of Erebor : I think I found a trick: search google for: site:cfsc.org.hk +"media coverage" Perhaps some of those can be used when working on the draft?  Polygnotus ( talk ) 18:47, 25 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Comment: Draftifying is not a good option because draftspace has lower visibility than mainspace.  In draftspace, it likely would be deleted under G13.  Abandoned drafts and Articles for creation submissions .  This article (and many other Chinese articles) have been in such a poor state because there are not enough English Wikipedia editors with the interest and Chinese-language skills to improve them.  Wikipedia:Systemic bias discusses this, noting that As a result of systemic bias , Wikipedia underrepresents the perspectives of people in the Global South , which includes Hong Kong.  Prince of Erebor ( talk · contribs ), Polygnotus ( talk · contribs ), Flemmish Nietzsche ( talk · contribs ), and Oaktree b ( talk · contribs ), I rewrote the article as it looks to be headed for deletion if I did not rewrite it.  It took me 90 minutes to find these sources and three hours to rewrite the article.  In total, this is 4.5 hours I spent on this article.  This is time that I had been planning to spend on participating in other AfDs and writing a new article on a topic that interests me.  Cunard ( talk ) 00:25, 26 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Great job.  Seems to be a well written and decent article now.  Changing my vote back to keep.  Flemmish Nietzsche ( talk ) 00:31, 26 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] That is the best result this AfD could have.  Excellent work, thank you!  Unfortunately I cannot read or write Chinese, otherwise I would've given it a try.  How do we retract this thing?  Polygnotus ( talk ) 00:33, 26 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Close it as keep I assume.  See WP:Articles for deletion#Procedure for non-administrator close (nominator withdrawal) .  Flemmish Nietzsche ( talk ) 00:38, 26 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it.  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review ).  No further edits should be made to this page.

Discussion outcome: speedy keep