Mary Lou Allison Gardner Little: Could possibly be merged, but I don't think that will accomplish  class goals, so we're here.  Star Mississippi 22:10, 18 April 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Note:  This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and Women .  Star Mississippi 22:10, 18 April 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] @ Ian (Wiki Ed) and Helaine (Wiki Ed) : as you apper to be working with this class.  Can you help?  Star Mississippi 22:11, 18 April 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Comment Little is mentioned as a Sigma Gamma Rho founder in The AJC in 2022, and her obituary is published by the LAT in 1992.  A Butler University archive description states she "was one of the seven founding members of Sigma Gamma Rho and is considered the sorority's primary founder."  Local news reports Butler University has a monument to the founders; the school paper reported honorary degrees for the founders in 2022; EBONY also reports this along with other historical events for the sorority.  Beccaynr ( talk ) 22:51, 18 April 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] That's part of why I think she should be merged.  One of the founders is of significant history, but I don't think it's enough for standalone.  Star Mississippi 23:06, 18 April 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] I haven't accessed the WP Library yet to check the Journal of Southern History reference, but Gregory S. Parks and Caryn Neumann, Lifting as They Climb: Race, Sorority, and African American Uplift in the 20th Century , 27 Hastings Women's L.J. 109 (2016) includes biographical information for Little (along with other founders) in fn 13; the law review could also support content in the Sigma Gamma Rho and Zeta Phi Beta articles.  From my view, it seems possible to create a Founders section in the Sigma Gamma Rho article (perhaps as a subsection in the History section), with biographies of the founders, and Little listed first based on her being considered the primary founder, being listed first in a variety of sources, and having a sorority award named after her.  Beccaynr ( talk ) 00:49, 19 April 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Would make total sense to me. I don't know about the sorority award or honoree degrees, but that could be handled editorially.  I guess my question is what these students are expected to deliver to meet their assignment.  Of course folks could find more , I'm just saying what if/do they need a full "article" for their professors, which is where I hope Wiki Ed folks can help Star Mississippi 02:53, 19 April 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] A book now generally cited in the article, Black Greek-letter Organizations in the Twenty-First Century (University of Kentucky Press, 2008) has a full page biography of Little at p. 127 (which notes Little wrote the sorority pledge) and at pp. 125 - 126 includes contextual history of the sorority (the chapter is titled "Seven Schoolteachers Challenge the Klan"), and at pp. 128 - 133, biographical information of other founders, as well as further context and history about the sorority at pp. 133 - 134.  I would also like to hear from Wiki Ed folks, because I think there is potential for expansion at Sigma Gamma Rho that could make inclusion of concise biographies for Little and other founders WP:DUE per WP:BIO1E .  Beccaynr ( talk ) 03:30, 19 April 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Beccaynr , this might be good as with band members bios in groups like Meg and Dia , or cast members for a single television series.  AngusW🐶🐶F ( bark • sniff ) 14:30, 19 April 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Weak Keep .  I found two books that provide a short (full page) biography, so she at least meets WP:BASIC .  I made improvements to the article before ! voting.  I only said "weak" because I don't have time to check how robust my ! vote is, but I should maybe just have said "keep".  CT55555 ( talk ) 02:18, 19 April 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Merge to Sigma Gamma Rho as {{ R from founder }} until it is clear she has independent notability from the sorority's foundation.  AngusW🐶🐶F ( bark • sniff ) 14:27, 19 April 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep Parks (cited in the article) includes a page length biography.  McClure (also cited) notes that the sorority was her "brain child."  Also see the sources provided by User:Beccaynr in the comment above.  I think establishing one of the "divine nine" and having secondary sources stating that fact, is sufficient for notability.  -- Jaireeodell ( talk ) 14:42, 19 April 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] ( edit conflict ) Leaning merge per WP:PAGEDECIDE , which includes: When creating new content about a notable topic, editors should consider how best to help readers understand it.  Often, understanding is best achieved by presenting the topic on a dedicated standalone page, but it is not required that we do so; at times it is better to cover a notable topic as part of a larger page about a broader topic, with more context (and doing so in no way disparages the importance of the topic).  Our notability guideline is a broader consideration than WP:GNG / WP:BASIC , and includes context and what may best help readers.  For this subject, she is known for her work with others to found the sorority, and secondary sources seem to present them as a group with similar depth of biographical information and context; for example, they have the same historical context, have been honored with a monument, and were awarded honorary degrees.  While there are details that distinguish Little's role as a primary founder, drafter of the pledge, first president, etc, I think developing a Founders section or subsection in the main Sigma Gamma Rho article, along with adding relevant content to other parts of that article, provides the most contextual understanding of the topics, and per WP:SUMMARY , it may eventually make sense to create a standalone article for the founders, with a link and a summary paragraph in the main Sigma Gamma Rho article.  For now, the content would first need to be developed to assess how to proceed.  From my view, a permanent stub for Little is less helpful for readers than a redirect to an article with contextual significance.  Beccaynr ( talk ) 15:01, 19 April 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep ; subject was president and founder of a national organization still in existence.  Article has been somewhat improved since nomination (has an image now).  Penny Richards ( talk ) 16:08, 21 April 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep as notability has been established in the above discussion per WP:GNG , and because many editors have helped improve the article, which was in poor shape at the time it was nominated for deletion and was clearly moved into mainspace prematurely.  The main debate now seems to be whether or not this article should be merged into Sigma Gamma Rho , or if it's deserving of a standalone article.  In the past, I have been skeptical about whether sorority founders really deserve their own standalone Wikipedia articles, but in this particular case, this is a huge international sorority with a history of over 100 years, and the primary founder who was the first president, wrote the pledge, and has the biennial award named after her, whose founding story is significant in historical context and who remained involved in sorority activities through much of her life, seems justified.  (And equally, that founding story and the biographical history of the founders is a big enough topic that trying to cram it all into the main sorority page would probably be disproportionate relative to the rest of the history of the sorority, which is significant.)  That said, it is indeed the case that the original founders as a group are known as the "Seven Pearls of Sigma Gamma Rho" and have coverage as a group (although it seems Mary Lou Allison (Gardner) (Little) had the most and is also recognized separately), so I would not be opposed if other members of this WikiEd course at Allen University (or other editors) were to decide to expand this article to include all seven founders; at that point, we could use redirects with the individual founder names to redirect to the Seven Pearls of Sigma Gamma Rho page.  But right now, that article content does not exist, so it's fine to keep the Mary Lou Allison (Gardner Little) article as is.  Cc: Ian (Wiki Ed) and Helaine (Wiki Ed) and course instructor Kazooch .  Cielquiparle ( talk ) 06:40, 23 April 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it.  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review ).  No further edits should be made to this page.

Discussion outcome: keep