Teilhard Frost: As always, musicians are not "inherently" notable enough for articles just because they and their music exist -- but existence is the only notability claim being attempted here, and the sourcing isn't getting him over WP:GNG : two of the four footnotes are primary sources that don't count as support for notability at all, a third comes from a limited circulation special-interest magazine that looks suspiciously more like a WordPress blog than a GNG-worthy publication of record, and the only one that comes from a clearly GNG-worthy media outlet is a single newspaper piece announcing a private house concert -- but that doesn't satisfy NMUSIC's touring criterion in and of itself, because the subject is from Manitoulin Island and the house concert was in Sudbury , which hardly consitutes evidence of a large-scale national tour.  (That's like saying that a musician had passed the national tour criterion by playing a small venue in New York City while personally living in Newark.)  Nothing here is "inherently" notable enough to exempt him from having to have much, much more than just one piece of "almost-local guy does stuff" in one closely-adjacent-to-hometown newspaper for coverage.  Bearcat ( talk ) 12:01, 5 October 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Note:  This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and Canada .  Bearcat ( talk ) 12:01, 5 October 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.  Please add new comments below this notice.  Thanks, ✗ plicit 12:20, 12 October 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] While it's good to push back on this to ensure someone is notable, this guy is a real deal professional musician.  Lots of secondary sources to support his notability, but keep in mind that this is a music genre that generally does not get much mainstream media attention.  I'll work on adding content when I have time and I think it will be clearer to you.  Mr. Mephistopheles ( talk ) 18:27, 15 October 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] "Real deal professional musician" isn't a notability criterion per se ( every professional musician who exists at all is, by definition , a "real deal professional musician"), and musicians are not exempted from having to have reliable source coverage to establish their notability just because their genre "does not get much media attention" — "media attention" is what "secondary sources" means , so it's inherently impossible for a person to have "lots of secondary sources" while simultaneously somehow lacking "media attention".  Bearcat ( talk ) 14:39, 20 October 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] This artist meets the following criteria for inclusion in WP:NMUSIC "Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city."  He has also contributed to more than one Juno- nominated album.  For these reasons the page should be kept.  It is in the process of being updated to better reflect his work.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boogaloo77 ( talk • contribs ) 23:21, 15 October 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Firstly, being a contributor to a Juno-nominated album is not a Wikipedia notability criterion.  Junos build notability only if Teilhard Frost was personally named as the specific nominee in a Juno category, and simply being a contributor to somebody else's album is not a notability-builder if his contributions were not directly singled out for an individual nomination given directly to him in his own right.  But he has never been the recipient of a nomination in any Juno category, either as himself or as Sheesham & Lotus with or without Son — if he was ever a contributor to a Juno-nominated album (which the article, as written, fails to assert at all), then that was merely as a session musician and not as the direct personal recipient of a nomination in his own name, so he doesn't get to invoke NMUSIC #8 as evidence of notability.  Secondly, "one of the most prominent representatives..." is a criterion that absolutely every local musician could claim to pass if all they had to do was assert that they passed it — the test for passing that criterion isn't just saying that it's passed, and requires reliable source coverage in media to verify its passage.  See what the introduction to NMUSIC says: "It is not enough to make unsourced or poorly sourced claims in the article, or to assert a band's importance on a talk page or AfD page – the article itself must document notability through the use of reliable sources, and no criterion listed in this page confers an exemption from having to reliably source the article just because passage of the criterion has been claimed."  Bearcat ( talk ) 14:39, 20 October 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.  Relisting comment: Analysis of the references added to the article would be very helpful.  Please add new comments below this notice.  Thanks, Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:54, 20 October 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete : Non-notable musician.  I can't find mentions in any . ca sources, that aren't simple concert listings or bios.  Nothing in the greater web either.  Being from the Sudbury area myself, nice to see "a local boy does good" story, but we can't keep it with a lack of sourcing.  Oaktree b ( talk ) 13:38, 20 October 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] This in a thesis is all I can find [35] .  Oaktree b ( talk ) 14:49, 23 October 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Manitoulin is not Sudbury; more representative of the Island would be any Native performers from Wikwemikong for example.  The Juno award is fine, but we need sourcing for it.  Oaktree b ( talk ) 13:40, 20 October 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] As a person working on this page who is new to Wiki, I find it disheartening to try to do things in the correct format, only to have them taken down.  The page was in progress, as I have noted elsewhere.  The page, as it is now, does not support the work this artist has done, so readers are no longer getting an accurate sense of Teilhard Frost's work.  If references need to be formatted differently, it would be helpful to change them, or to make suggestions to another editor (in this case, me) as to how they should be done.  These references were chosen specifically to illustrate work the artist had done in their community and other artists they had collaborated with.  As I have stated before, this artist meets the criteria of Wiki guidelines of being a known specialist in their field, in their city, but as you have pointed out, better sources need to be found.  I believe those sources are out there, but finding them will take time.  As a busy person, it would be good to know if there is an expected timeframe that the article should be completed by.  Also, before the article is complete, it would be helpful if we could collaborate on improving it, rather than criticizing it before it is actually finished.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boogaloo77 ( talk • contribs ) 22:54, 21 October 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] You should perhaps draft the article or use the sandbox before submitting.  Oaktree b ( talk ) 14:44, 23 October 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Draftify .  This is definitely a borderline case.  I think there's a weak argument for WP:BASIC and a stronger argument for WP:MUSICBIO#7 .  It appears we have an editor interested in improving the article, so I think draftifying is probably the right way forward.  — siro χ o 06:13, 22 October 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Comment on the new sources: the Sudbury Star piece is "a special to" the newspaper, so is likely a PR piece, it has no byline.  An interview is not really helpful, but can flesh out an article.  The album review only mentions this person in passing.  The rest look about as non-useful.  Oaktree b ( talk ) 14:52, 23 October 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it.  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review ).  No further edits should be made to this page.

Discussion outcome: delete