Gun violence in the United States by state: Some columns dropped in the merging process, but none directly related to guns.  Plenty of room for more columns/tables in the mentioned page.  Wizmut ( talk ) 06:55, 16 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Note that is is not the same sort of deletion request as in the previous AfD - I consider the following columns as less-relevant, but would be open to adding them back: Removed from Firearm death rates in the United States by state : State abbreviation Population Population density (To be) removed from Gun violence in the United States by state and not added to the other article: Population Murder excluding negligent manslaughter (one column for non-gun homicide per table is enough) Wizmut ( talk ) 07:06, 16 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Note:  This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Crime , Firearms , Lists ,  and United States of America .  WC Quidditch ☎ ✎ 07:15, 16 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] I'm very confused about what this AfD is trying to accomplish.  Merge and redirect I guess?  PARAKANYAA ( talk ) 14:27, 16 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Yes, merge and redirect.  Although the merging is already done, unless someone wants to say otherwise.  Wizmut ( talk ) 14:47, 16 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Comment Both list have problems.   Only listing how many people were shot and died, when many who get shot get to the hospital in time and live, is ridiculous.   Its still a crime whether the person dies or not.   If its "firearm death" then you should list how many people were killed in what was deemed self defense.   Also list deaths by accident.  D r e a m Focus 15:00, 16 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Gun accidents by state I can find for 2021 from CDC, gun assaults by state I can find for 2019 from FBI - but more to the point, assuming a few more columns are needed, do you think we need two articles or just one?  Wizmut ( talk ) 15:11, 16 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] As long as it's not a wholesale deletion, and is mainly being merged with a similar article, I'm not opposed to deletion.   -- Hi Ev 07:47, 17 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] It's a great idea to merge these pages, since the subject and the data overlaps greatly.  Also appreciate the work already put in on merging the data, eliminating the extraneous columns, and updating to a more current source from 2021!  Great steps forward.  I'm not opposed to merge, in fact I would like to help out with it.  I just want to ask about the direction of the merge.  Firearm deaths is a more narrow category than firearm violence.  I think merging into the broadest category would be better, so that more types of topical data can be included.  A title like "gun harm" could also be appropriate, and more general than both the two existing titles.  The second concern I have is the page usage.  The gun violence page has much more traffic (thousands of views per month), as well as more watchers/contributors/viewers of recent edits.  It seems like it would be beneficial to be merged in that direction.  Cliffroared ( talk ) 00:36, 19 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Completely flexible on all points.  Choosing the right term might be difficult because suicide is not always considered violence, not all violence results in death, and gun harm isn't a common term (wish it was).  The CDC can be seen using the phrase "gun violence and injury".  [15] Perhaps "Gun violence and injury in the United States by state?"  Wizmut ( talk ) 01:30, 19 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.  Relisting comment: Relisting.  I see discussion but we need very.specific.proposals.on.what.to.do.  It's not the time to discuss which columns should be in which article.  This article was brought to AFD but it doesn't seem like the nominator is seeking deletion which makes this entire discussion rather confusing.  We need proposals that are not vague and editors who support them or have alternative suggestions on what to do.  Please add new comments below this notice.  Thanks, L iz Read!  Talk!  07:21, 23 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Apologies.  This is a weird mix of a part-merger, repeat nomination, renaming... anyways.  Here's a specific proposal: Rename Firearm death rates in the United States by state to Gun death and violence in the United States by state Delete Gun violence in the United States by state and redirect to new page continue content discussion on the new page Wizmut ( talk ) 08:30, 23 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Close this discussion which should never have been started here and certainly should not have been relisted.  The proposal was not for deletion and it is utterly inappropriate for AFD.  Try improving the article(s) by editing and with discussion at talk page(s).  Thincat ( talk ) 09:39, 23 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Let's cut out the bureaucracy .  This is a weird case of lots of cruft needing deleted and being left with two almost-identical articles.  Before nominating I had already put a refurbished version on one of the two articles, but it would have been reckless of me not to check in to see if I had gone too far.  Turns out nobody minds getting rid of the cruft and nobody has said there should still be two articles.  Wizmut ( talk ) 10:12, 23 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] What would have cut bureaucracy would be to have proceeded with your editing (and thank you for this aspect), including the  redirecting as you thought suitable.  All you did there was fine.  Nothing required AFD.  The only reason for an AFD would be if you wanted the edit history before the redirect to be deleted and that would not have been appropriate if material had been merged.  AFD was not at all best (or even good) practice.  Thincat ( talk ) 13:08, 23 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Thank you for this comment.  I'll wait another few days and just make the changes in my proposal above, unless anyone objects.  If anyone has content suggestions please make them on the talk page for either gun/firearm article.  If it's appropriate for me to say so, I'll withdraw the nomination from this process, but mind that I do still intend that everything mentioned here redirects to one page.  Wizmut ( talk ) 13:18, 23 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] I'm now wishing I hadn't criticised.  You were, I think, doing well meaning and worthwhile editing but, in my view, did not need to seek confirmation at AFD.  However, my comment now seems to me to have been too harsh.  Best wishes!  Thincat ( talk ) 10:25, 25 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] No worries, the points were well-taken.  Regards Wizmut ( talk ) 14:32, 25 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Strong keep - this is an extremely important article right now.  Laypersons will literally die without it.  Folks need to know whether they should move out of their state to another, if they are afraid of crime, or nearing retirement.  I just read a Fox news article about a couple in California, who moved to a place they thought was safer, but California is actually and factually in the 3rd quartile of crime rates.  It was linked from Apple News .  Our readers need and deserve facts, not fear.  Bearian ( talk ) 20:17, 28 February 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it.  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review ).  No further edits should be made to this page.

Discussion outcome: keep