Ordo Aurum Solis: Slatersteven ( talk ) 13:05, 11 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Note:  This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions .  Shellwood ( talk ) 14:51, 11 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete unless reliable secondary sources can be found, in which case the article would, of course, need to be completely rewritten.  Brunton ( talk ) 15:48, 11 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Which still might be best to nuke it for orbit and start from scratch?  Slatersteven ( talk ) 16:19, 11 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] WP:TNT .  Brunton ( talk ) 12:22, 26 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete .  No independent sources that would indicate notability outside of the bubble built by a couple of authors.  – Austronesier ( talk ) 20:53, 11 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete Unsure Weak Keep was thinking delete unless reliable sources  can be found for this purported hermetic order.  But maybe sources exist.  Simonm223 ( talk ) 20:57, 12 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Reliable sources exist that are not part of Llewelyn press after review.  There are... not many... but they are sufficient not to warrant deletion.  Simonm223 ( talk ) 12:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] @ Simonm223 : Such as?  Here's the relevant Google Scholar search result: [9] .  If you can present one or two independent RS among these for evaluation, that would be sufficient as a first step.  – Austronesier ( talk ) 17:34, 17 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] The very first one is a non-Llewellyn book.  [10] Simonm223 ( talk ) 18:00, 17 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] It's not just about "non-Llewellyn".  Have a look at the first page of the preview.  Do you consider Kraft's book an independent and reliable source?  – Austronesier ( talk ) 18:37, 17 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] It's an in-universe description of a magical tradition.  Wikipedia doesn't care if it's true.  Just if it's notable.  I am not suggesting Wikipedia should treat these descriptions as being of actual effects of magical ritual.  I am just suggesting this group of magic type people appears to meet the minimum standard for WP:GNG .  Barely.  Simonm223 ( talk ) 18:39, 17 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] And can't be used to establish notability.  That needs to be done by third-party sources.  Slatersteven ( talk ) 18:41, 17 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Wikipedia doesn't care if it's true.  Sure, but Wikipedia cares if it's WP:DUE .  That's an essential part of WP:GNG .  – Austronesier ( talk ) 18:49, 17 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep .  This article suffers from poor management and sourcing, but it is not a non-notable organization in its "field," arguably on par with the Ciceros' Golden Dawn order , the now-defunct Open Source Order of the Golden Dawn , the Crowleyan A∴A∴ / OTO and the (also under-written) Fraternitas Rosae Crucis .  It would give an incomplete picture for this org to not have its own page.  I'd mentioned this before , but maybe I could give this article a real try at sourcing.  As was suggested above, starting from scratch (but without deletion) might be the best option.  AnandaBliss ( talk ) 13:01, 13 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Its been tagged as needing this for over 10 years.  Slatersteven ( talk ) 13:10, 13 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] AfD is not cleanup.  Simonm223 ( talk ) 12:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Well it is because wp:n applies, as does wp:fringe and wp:undue .  Throwing out the rubbish is just what AFD is for.  Slatersteven ( talk ) 10:18, 17 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete , if it turns out there are sources, it would be better to restart from scratch given the state of the article.  Allan Nonymous ( talk ) 19:00, 13 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Comment some Google Scholar entries apparently exist.  I have not reviewed yet.  [11] Unsigned comment by Simonm223 ( talk ) 20:57, 12 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep with comment .  As I write this article claims Ordo Aurum Solis was founded by George Stanton and Charles Kingold, names confirmed here in Encyclopedia.com .  However, that encyclopedia doesn't say it was the Christian bishop George Stanton.  It likely would have been a blasphemous scandal for him to do such a thing and the alleged founding is not and was never mentioned in bishop Stanton's Wikipedia biography.  Stanton and Kingold are called "occultists" in another encyclopedia.com article [12] .  KEEP because Ordo Aurum Solis qualifies for an entry in encyclopedia.com.  5Q5 | ✉ 12:03, 15 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] I de-Wikified George Stanton as not being the Christian bishop but an occultist.  An online search for "George Stanton" occultist confirms this.  5Q5 | ✉ 09:43, 17 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.  Please add new comments below this notice.  Thanks, L iz Read!  Talk!  22:55, 18 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.  Please add new comments below this notice.  Thanks, Owen× ☎ 11:22, 26 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete .  The current article is improperly sourced and/or WP:OR, promotional ( "The current Grand Master Jean-Louis de Biasi continues to maintain the high moral standards of this tradition" ) and unsalvageable.  If sufficient appropriate sources can ever be found to justify a new article, none of the existing content will be required.  AndyTheGrump ( talk ) 11:38, 26 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it.  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review ).  No further edits should be made to this page.

Discussion outcome: delete