Andy Roberts (wrestler): Oaktree b ( talk ) 00:00, 23 July 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Note:  This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions .  Oaktree b ( talk ) 00:00, 23 July 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Thanks for heads up on this.  I believe Andy Roberts to be a notable sportsperson within professional wrestling and I'll be happy to make any necessary changes to his page in order to please anyone with concerns.  I disagree RE: non-notable: Andy Roberts is a decorated veteran of UK wrestling .  He's held two championships with Wiki pages (the ICW Zero-G Championship and his ongoing reign with the European Heavyweight Championship which spans multiple promotions and has set multiple records for reach, longevity and title defences).  He's wrestled in several countries and continents and won multiple titles and awards from the most well-known companies in his home country including the most populous city of Glasgow (ICW), the capitol city of Edinburgh (Discovery Wrestling), the third most populous of Aberdeen (WrestleZone) as well as Ayr (Pro Wrestling Elite) and Kilmarnock (British Championship Wrestling) in addition to those from wrestling media ( Fighting Spirit Magazine ) and the Scottish Wrestling Network, which I understand to be in good standing with Wiki).  He's wrestled for a number of promotions with Wiki pages ( ICW , WXW , PCW , CZW , FFPW , 1PW and WWE ).  He was trained by Zack Sabre Jr. and Jimmy Havoc .  He's been involved in championship title changes, title matches, tournament victories and feuds with numerous wrestlers with Wiki pages; Drew McIntyre , Wolfgang , Joe Hendry , Noam Dar , James Mason , Kenny Williams , Killian Dain , Dave Mastiff , Bram , Nick Aldis , Jack Morris , Robbie E , Doug Williams , Mark Coffey , Joe Coffey , Grado , Zack Gibson , Leyton Buzzard , Lionheart , Jack Jester , Kris Travis , Mark Andrews , BT Gunn among others, most of which are all linked through to from his page.  This includes current current holders of the Impact Wrestling World Tag Team Championships , NWA National Heavyweight Championship , WWE NXT Tag Team Championships .  He challenged for ICW World Heavyweight Championship and Evolve Championship .  His matches have aired through Peacock , WWE Network , Fight Network , FITE TV , Nuvolari and other outlets/media.  I also disagree RE: reliable sources.  My understanding is that databases like Cagematch are considered RS but: Multiple sources are provided for many points and the page includes multiple primary sources from ICW, WWE, Dragon Gate USA , Andy Wild/Roberts, Discovery Wrestling, Union of European Wrestling Alliances, BCW, FPWA, etc.  The page includes multiple sources from national and international media ( The Sun , The Mirror , Yahoo! Movies ) as well as regional/local news ( Fife Today , Glasgow Times etc) and online wrestling news sites which are regularly sourced on Wiki (Fightful, PWPonderings, Sportskeeda , Wrestletalk , Cultaholic, Scottish Wrestling Network, Inside the Ropes, 411 Mania and others).  The Ecstasy of Gold Wrestling wordpress blog ( https://ecstasyofgoldwrestling.wordpress.com/2023/07/20/make-your-own-moments-four-years-of-uewa-european-heavyweight-champion-andy-roberts/ ) is heavily sourced and full of citations which confirm any details used (please see the "Sources / References / Citations Note" at the bottom of the article).  If this site is not considered credible, it should be as it's extremely in-depth and transparent with its sources/information, in addition to a great deal of photographic/audio/video sources, as well as direct quotes from primary sources (which are linked).  All blacklisted sites at time of publication but I'll work on removing any of the other wordpress sites now, though I currently have no reason to believe them to be unreliable.  I hope this can be resolved.  I'm happy to make to make changes to the page in order to prevent its deletion.  SugeRight ( talk ) 05:17, 23 July 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Comment SugeRight , you're trying to prove his notability by association with other notable people.  Just because you're the father, mother, brother, sister, wife, husband, son, daughter, student, teacher, etc. of a notable person doesn't automatically qualify your notability.  The wordpress blog is not a reliable source.  Its links are mostly primary sources and don't really count either.  The fact that many of the sites you want to use as sources are blacklisted says something about their reliability too.  I do appreciate that you are willing to find good sources to support the notability of the article, but remember that stuff like Facebook is definitely subpar.  Sungodtemple ( talk • contribs ) 21:29, 23 July 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Note:  This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Wrestling and Scotland .  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 10:04, 23 July 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Weak keep or Draftify may be an option.  Subject is a World Champion, which suggests there is coverage out there somewhere about him.  However, the reliable independent news sources used in the article are minimal, most of the WP:UNDUE information is sourced to blogs, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter or wrestling stats webpages.  We need a more concise summary of what Roberts is known for, not every dot-and-comma of everything he's ever said or done.  Sionk ( talk ) 10:26, 23 July 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Comment Wow, the article has 330 links.  It takes time to read, but a quick look... several of them are Cagematch, which isn't useful for notability (notability is given by sources with in deep coverage of the subject, Cagematch includes results from every promotion in the world).  Others are FaceBook, Twitter, Youtube... which isn't allowed in most cases.  Other, Primary Sources.  Ecstasy of Gold Wrestling isn't reliable.  Even if he worked since 2006, he only performed on a independent level.  Also, at some point it fills like OVERSOURCING.  being Coach of Fife Pro Wrestling Asylum school has 7 sources, challenging McIntyre has 8 sources and facing Dave Mastiff and Jack Starz has 16 sources.  Maybe it's notable, but I only see wp:routine results from Cagematch, social media like Twitter or Facebook and similars.  Again, look for in-deep coverage of the subject, no passing mentions.  -- HHH Pedrigree ( talk ) 08:02, 24 July 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] thank you, working on this now.  any edits welcome ofc.  SugeRight ( talk ) 04:33, 27 July 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Thank you again for your feedback, oversourcing and verbosity is definitely something I'm guilty of in many aspects of my life!  I've made more edits, I've removed all wordpress/blog links and the majority of databases/social media.  I've left a few Cagematch links where I think it's helpful for covering multiple points without using multiple sources (i.e 15 different title defences without individual sources) or for illustrating that the UEWA reign is still currently ongoing (which past results/interviews/articles won't do).  I've cut a lot of sources out.  Please don't hesitate to remove anything else.  SugeRight ( talk ) 20:08, 27 July 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Comment , echoing above, SugeRight can you pull out the best 3-5 sources that contain significant secondary independent coverage of the subject?  That means nothing from social media or blogs (which are explicitly not allowed on BLPs), nothing from any organization he's ever been remotely affiliated with (such as governing sports bodies, clubs, orgs that have given him awards, etc.), no stats databases, no interviews, no routine match recaps/previews, no injury announcements or transactional news.  JoelleJay ( talk ) 23:25, 24 July 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] working on this, thank you very much.  Also fully encourage anyone to make any edits they'd like.  Again, thank you for the feedback and help.  SugeRight ( talk ) 04:34, 27 July 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.  Relisting comment: Relisting this discussion as the article is actively being improved.  I was surprised to see it was sent to AFD less than an hour after it was created so, needless to say, there have been a lot of changes since the nomination was made.  Care to take the time to review the improvements that have been made?  Please add new comments below this notice.  Thanks, L iz Read!  Talk!  00:28, 30 July 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Page has needed work but appears to be in pretty good shape now.  I removed the last flag (linkrot) and hope it can be be marked keep and unlisted for deletion.  208.91.121.188 ( talk ) 20:10, 4 August 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.  Relisting comment: Hello, IP, I won't untag this article until there is feedback offered by other editors on whether the changes made to this article overcome the objections in the AFD nomination and brought up in this discussion.  That takes more than your comment that things are okay now.  Please add new comments below this notice.  Thanks, L iz Read!  Talk!  23:25, 5 August 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Comment Article certainly isn't in good shape, still written like a fan page in parts and littered with synthesis largely from YouTube videos or minor mentions online.  I've been removing some of it, but I'll wait for the outcome of this discussion before doeing anything else.  Sionk ( talk ) 19:16, 6 August 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.  Relisting comment: Final relist as there is plenty of discussion but not many opinions expressed about outcomes.  Is there additional support for Draftification here?  Please add new comments below this notice.  Thanks, L iz Read!  Talk!  22:06, 12 August 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] I've already ! voted, but I can't see what a draftification would do.  There are zero sources per sourcebot that are green/reliable, some red and orange.  This is now ref-bombed with every tidbit of information sourced.  If we can't get a RS after this long, I'm not sure what pushing this to draft would accomplish.  Oaktree b ( talk ) 06:07, 13 August 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete According to WP:NSPORT pro wrestlers are considered entertainers and subject to WP:ENT , so championships have no bearing on his WP notability.   Seeming to source the results and announcements of every card he's been on doesn't provide the significant, independent coverage in reliable sources I believe WP:GNG requires.   I'm not seeing anything that shows me "The person has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment".  Papaursa ( talk ) 00:25, 16 August 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it.  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review ).  No further edits should be made to this page.

Discussion outcome: delete