List of MLS Cup broadcasters: Just another case of WP:INDISCRIMINATE WP:LISTCRUFT to appeal to nobody but the small minority of the most ardent fans; another excessively bloated list fit for Fandom but is it encyclopaedic for here?  The subjects are not described as a group, failing WP:LISTN .  Additionally WP:NOTDATABASE and WP:ROUTINE .  As with sources per WP:RS ; one is a Twitter post, one is a now a dead link and the other is an announcment; neither doing anything to establish notability and the rest is unsourced.  SpacedFarmer ( talk ) 06:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Note:  This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Television , Football , Lists ,  and United States of America .  SpacedFarmer ( talk ) 06:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete – Per nom.  Svartner ( talk ) 09:19, 13 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep - Over 120 different sources have just been added, bumping the current total to about 123 references.  If that doesn't establish the notability, then I really don't know what else there is that could do it.  Also, Major League Soccer , is one of the big five North American professional sports leagues alongside the NFL, NBA, Major League Baseball, and NHL.  It's also the official #1 professional soccer organization in North America, and has been since it launched in 1996.  Broadcasting information about the MLS Cup is further detailed in the individual articles for each MLS Cup event.  So it isn't like there is little remote interest about this particular subject overall.  BornonJune8 ( talk ) 10:01, 13 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] This will definitely pass in 2009 but c'mon, this is 2024.  Sourcing guidelines has changed since.  First of all, Twitter does not count as a WP:RS , neither do YouTube.  Bornon, Have you ever voted delete in any of my nominations?  SpacedFarmer ( talk ) 12:07, 13 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Big 5?  LOL No such thing.  Of course, there's the big 4.  Back to the subject; these all consists of announcment posts, WP:PRIMARY , two are Twitter posts, most others are about the game and less the broadcasting.  SpacedFarmer ( talk ) 12:15, 13 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete per failing WP:LISTN .  I reviewed the sources and I can chalk it up to this: TV announcements ( WP:NOTTVGUIDE ), WP:PRIMARY from mlssoccer.com, and of course WP:ROUTINE announcements about the schedule/broadcasting team.  None of which provide justifiability for this article's existence.  Conyo14 ( talk ) 15:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football 's list of association football-related deletions. Giant Snowman 18:22, 13 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete - no evidence of notability. If sources are found please ping me. Giant Snowman 18:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete – Per nom. Chris 1834 Talk 15:02, 15 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] @ SpacedFarmer : First of, why do you insist on replying to virtually single counterargument that somebody makes when you make an AFD? That's if you ask me, bordering on WP:BLUDGEONING ? Also, like I said, there's broadcasting info in the individual MLS Cup articles themselves, such as the very first one in 1996 . They're sourced or as good as the sources could possibly or remotely be. Here's some further articles about the MLS Cup broadcasting coverage , after the fact. BornonJune8 ( talk ) 7:07, 13 May 2024 (UTC) Furthermore, Major League Soccer actually is considered part of the "Big 5" among North American professional sports franchises. Los Angeles Football Club , according to this article , was in the year 2023, valued at over $900 million. That's more than the Pittsburgh Penguins, Seattle Kraken, and Calgary Flames of the NHL. BornonJune8 ( talk ) 7:16, 13 May 2024 (UTC) Information about the viewership averages for the MLS Cup dating back to 1996 has now been added to the bottom of the article. BornonJune8 ( talk ) 07:27, 13 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] @ GiantSnowman : Here's a collection of articles about the MLS Cup's television ratings and viewership : MLS Cup draws largest total audience in 25 years , Canada’s TSN drew almost as many MLS Cup viewers as the U.S. broadcast on ABC, despite Canada having 1/10th the people , MLS Cup on ABC down almost 50 percent from 2018 on Fox and close to 2017 on ESPN, with earlier timing likely a factor , Fox’s coverage of MLS Cup final sees highest viewership for final since 1997 , MLS Cup 2017 on ESPN draws lower overnight from last year , 2015 MLS Cup Final avoids distinction of being least watched ever , Weekly sports ratings: NFL, NBA, Army-Navy, MLS Cup and more , Ratings: MLS Cup , Lakers and more . And here's an additional article that discusses Bob Ley preforming play-by-play for the 1997 MLS Cup telecast on ABC. BornonJune8 ( talk ) 04:17, 17 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Further information that includes details about radio coverage, television ratings (including local markets), and international television coverage (such as the networks and commentators) have now been added to hopefully provide some better context. BornonJune8 ( talk ) 05:24, 17 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] As of now, there are over 200, almost 300 references in the article. BornonJune8 ( talk ) 05:59, 17 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Argue how you like but I don't understand why is it necessary for have this list? Why not merge it to the one about the league instead? As it being the 'big 5', ask an American how popular it is there, they laugh at you.  SpacedFarmer ( talk ) 10:38, 17 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep this clearly passes WP:GNG , and the nomination statement is clearly flawed.  NOTTVGUIDE specifically allows historically important television information, and this is looks at the history of broadcasting.  The other WP:NOTs outlined in the deletion rationale - I've been at AfD enough to know that they're a grab bag of WP:IDONTLIKEITs - this isn't a database, the sources aren't routine, and now we're wasting time on this here.  SportingFlyer T · C 16:43, 17 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Also since a couple people have used WP:ROUTINE - that clearly doesn't apply as even though not every source qualifies for GNG, there's plenty of national coverage of the broadcasters and game ratings, including from Canada's National Post.  WP:NOTDATABASE is also clearly wrong - this article is mostly prose.  SportingFlyer T · C 23:01, 17 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Delete WP:LISTN is not met as this grouping isn't discussed in secondary sources.  Let'srun ( talk ) 22:20, 17 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] The entirety of the list does not need to be documented in sources for notability, only that the grouping or set in general has been.  This seems clearly true?  There are many, many references and the broadcast every cup is compared to all of the previous cups, making a list a properly notable topic.  SportingFlyer T · C 22:58, 17 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] I understand that, but what WP:THREE would you say do this?  Let'srun ( talk ) 13:46, 18 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Leaning Keep per BornonJune8 and SportingFlyer.  There's nearly 300 references and much well-sourced text describing the history of MLS Cup broadcasters; I don't think it could be merged anywhere.  BeanieFan11 ( talk ) 22:34, 17 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] 300 sources, I'd advise BornonJune8 of WP:REFBOMBING .  SpacedFarmer ( talk ) 07:30, 18 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] @ SpacedFarmer : The article " Professional sports leagues in the United States " in itself, lists Major League Soccer as one of the top five major professional sports leagues in North America alongside Major League Baseball, the National Basketball Association, the National Football League, and the National Hockey League.  To put things into perspective, in the United States, the 2022 MLS Cup had more viewers than the 2020 Stanley Cup final .  Here's a 2023 article from Forbes on Major League Soccer's growth.  BornonJune8 ( talk ) 07:50, 178 May 2024 (UTC) Furthermore, according to this article on MLS' attendance , Major League Soccer in the year 2022 had a higher average attendance than the NBA and NHL in 2022–23.   MLS that year had an average attendance of 21,033 whereas the NBA had an 18,077 average attendance and the NHL had an 17,101 average attendance in that same time frame.  In 2023 , MLS set a new season long attendance record .  BornonJune8 ( talk ) 08:11, 18 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Pretty idiotic comparing leagues taking place to a stadium vs one in an arena.  Like comparing apples to oranges.  Still, doesn't make it any bigger considering the size of those stadiums.  I cannot give the figures now as NHL is in a playoff, so cost of tickets will be higher but the average ticket for an NHL game costs $94.  according to [28] .  A ticket to see DC United will cost $21 according to Ticketmaster.  Again, this list is not about how big MLS is to Americans.  SpacedFarmer ( talk ) 08:44, 18 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] For the record, the average seating capacity of a Major League Soccer stadium is said to be between 18,000 and 30,000.  PayPal Park , which is home of the San Jose Earthquakes , is currently the smallest MLS stadium at about 18,000 seats.  Meanwhile, the average NBA arena has a capacity of 18,790.  And the average capacity of an NHL arena is around 16,000–20,000.  This is not like comparing an NBA or NHL arena to an NFL stadium , which has an average seating capacity of 60,000–80,000.  The current smallest NBA arena in terms of capacity is the State Farm Arena in Atlanta, which has a 16,600 maximum capacity BornonJune8 ( talk ) 09:24, 18 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] What does this have to do with the broadcasting teams?  Conyo14 ( talk ) 16:10, 18 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Calling another editor's point "idiotic" is not appropriate ( WP:UNCIVIL ).  Brindille1 ( talk ) 16:13, 26 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Redirect to MLS Cup Playoffs .  I'm not a fan of listcruft, but I can see some value in preserving the history on this one, including all those sources.  Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no!  19:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.  Please add new comments below this notice.  Thanks, signed, Rosguill talk 18:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Comment: I'm open to a redirect to MLS Cup Playoffs as a WP:ATD .  I do think as presently structured that this fails WP:LISTN .  Let'srun ( talk ) 03:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep : Per SportingFlyer.  This is extensively referenced and shows clear WP:SIGCOV , while appearing to meet WP:LISTN .  ...to appeal to nobody but the small minority of the most ardent fans – What kind of opinionated and completed irrelevant nomination rationale is that?  Hey man im josh ( talk ) 16:17, 23 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep : BornonJune8 made a good list of secondary sources covering MLS Cup broadcasts.  I understand that there are low quality sources among the nearly 281 sources cited in the article, but MLS Cup viewership very clearly meets WP:GNG .  The fact that there are other non-reliable sources covering this topic is irrelevant- there are significant independent secondary sources covering this topic and that establishes notability.  It is also worth pointing out that the nominator has made a large number of comments that MLS as a league is niche- these comments simply can't be considered in the deletion discussion, as they're litigating the notability of the league as a whole, rather than discussion of the actual topic.  Brindille1 ( talk ) 16:09, 26 May 2024 (UTC) [ reply ] The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it.  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review ).  No further edits should be made to this page.

Discussion outcome: no consensus