Julius Hammer: As always, notability is not inherited , so people don't get articles just for being related to other people per se -- but "had notable descendants" is the only notability claim being attempted here at all, and the sole source is a glancing namecheck of his existence in a review of his son's autobiography, which is not enough coverage to claim that he would pass WP:GNG .  Bearcat ( talk ) 21:06, 28 July 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Note:  This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and Russia .  Bearcat ( talk ) 21:06, 28 July 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep .  Today, actor Armie Hammer and his personal life get all the attention.  However his great-great-grandfather, Julius, and great-grandfather, Armand Hammer , were far more consequential.  Julius led formation of the Communist Party of the United States of America [15] and worked as a Soviet secret agent in the U.S. Notwithstanding Communism's hostility to capitalism, Julius also made a small fortune for himself through his dealings with Amtorg Trading Corporation .  Armand subsequently turned the small fortune into a huge fortune , also due in art to his Soviet ties.  Here's a sample of coverage: Gillette, Philip S. (October 1981).  "Armand Hammer, Lenin, and the First American Concession in Soviet Russia" .  Slavic Review .  40 (3).  Cambridge University Press : 355–365.  doi : 10.2307/2496191 .  Retrieved 28 July 2023 .  Armand Hammer was working on behalf of Julius Hammer; the paper covers Julius Hammer extensively "PAROLE DR. JULIUS HAMMER: Physician is One of 25 Prisoners Released From Sing Sing" .  The New York Times .  24 January 1923 .  Retrieved 28 July 2023 .  Dr. Julius Hammer was tried and convicted for performing an abortion in an unsuccessful attempt to save the life of diplomat's wife.  The 1920 trial was sensational and widely reported.  It created division among the New York physicians as to whether the law should be amended allow abortions to save a mother's life.  "SOCIETY REPUDIATES DR. HAMMER AGITATION: Bronx County Medical Assocition Tells Prosecutor It Favors Upholding the Laws" .  The New York Times .  14 July 1920 .  Retrieved 28 July 2023 .  "400 DOCTORS UNITE TO AID DR. HAMMER: Will Petition Court Today in Behalf of Performer of Illegal Operation. WANT PENAL LAW AMENDED Thomas Sheehan, Tammany Captain, Indicted on Charge ofTrying to Bribe Juror" .  The New York Times .  30 June 1920 .  Retrieved 28 July 2023 .  Attempted jury-tampering by an agent of the Tammany Hall political machine further sensationalized the trial.  Ingham, John (ed.).  Biographical Dictionary of American Business Leaders, Volume 2 .  Cambridge University Press .  pp. 533–535 .  Retrieved 28 July 2023 .  Armand Hammer's biographical entry includes 2 pages devoted to the father Spence, Richard B (21 June 2017).  Wall Street and the Russian Revolution 1905-1925 .  pp. 94–96, 101, 145–146, 189, 199, 204, 241, 243, 257.  ISBN 978-1634241236 .  Julius gets more attention in this book than his son Armand since during this era, 23-year old Armand was working as his father's representative in the USSR.  -- A. B. ( talk • contribs • global count ) 00:41, 29 July 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] If all of that is true, then it was the article creator's job to put it in the article in the first place , not my job to psychically know things the article isn't saying. Bearcat ( talk ) 15:33, 30 July 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] @ Bearcat , I don't think I said anything about you. Just the article. If you didn't know some of the Hammer family history, you might not know about Julius and Armand. I knew about the Hammers from a relative's interactions with Armand Hammer . So I zeroed in on this AfD when I saw it on AfD list. Armand, by the way, was pretty ethically challenged in his dealings with my relative, but then that's WP:OR. I don't know much about Armie Hammer ; I haven't had time to sink my teeth into his story. -- A. B. ( talk • contribs • global count ) 17:32, 30 July 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Draftify if the creator is willing to bring it beyond the barest of stubs.  If not, it will need to be deleted until someone wishes to create an actual encyclopedic article.  Thanks to A. B. for coming up with sources.  Lamona ( talk ) 01:35, 1 August 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] Keep per A.B.'s sources.  signed, Rosguill talk 02:50, 5 August 2023 (UTC) [ reply ] The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.  Please do not modify it.  Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review ).  No further edits should be made to this page.

Discussion outcome: keep