Hi John Personally I do not believe use of Noclue has ever accomplished anything more than a momentary venting for the editor that uses it The notion that repeated attempts by David to get his point across have not been successful doesnt mean that the audience has listened carefully and responded thoughtfully The glib reiteration that D planes in D are not different from D planes in D does not address at all the peculiarities mentioned by Lounesto and does not explain what the loss of the Jacobi identity means It is just being glib to suggest that fundamental differences in D magically are of no importance when one looks at the cross product A civil discussion could well improve this article whether or not David ultimately accepts the result