James I think this might be the last time I say this or perhaps not but I absolutely promise you on my honour as ermm  whatever that if you go to Sainsburys round the corner here in London EC and buy a pack of ordinary plain muffins and then go to the supermarket in Manhattan Kansas and do the same with English muffins you will have two absolutely distinct products I promise you Really I have done it The texture is markedly different I know I am just doing the same thing again that I have decried the assertion and counterassertion but I am stuck until we get some credible references into the article I have never seen the AmE English muffin on sale here and would be very interested to see this But I really should stop this now  I think it is close to affecting my mental health or perhaps more than close In passing I note that I missed an opportunity for a gag somewhere in counterassertion it would have been a bit halfbaked mind you and also that Proposal to split in the English muffin talk page is possibly the best section header I have ever seen anywhere  whether it was deliberate or not With best wishes to all