Colours flatlist and accessibility   Hi RexxS I invite you to join the discussion about colours and the technical aspects of flatlist that is underway at Template talkPhysical oceanographycolours Regards     Hi Dianna I think that you and D have already covered most of what I would want to say Ive added a note about how it it affects my own colour impairment which may help to add some perspective on the issues Cheers      idea of merging into alternate air source   Dont think this merging would work at all In diving usage the terms are very separate even if the different systems may be attempting to solve somewhat similar problems Users looking up any of these separate system eg spare air pony bottle etc will NOT think of them by the term Alternative Air Source So for ordinary users referencing Wiki this common catagory is confusing Nor is the usage of All Alternative Air Sources the same A Pony is only used as a backup for carrying an emergency ascent a twinset for use during the dive itself the octopus is not a redundant air supply itself etc etc The single catagory also produces information overload because of the many DIFFERENCES and methods of use  The more I think about it the more I see this restructuring as VERY confusing and unhelpful  Best Regards HowieKor   Preceding unsigned comment added by        Hi Howie thanks for notifying me of your concerns All of the pages involved are on my watchlist so I saw your comments at TalkBailout bottleMerge with Alternative air source and Pony bottle and redirect I see that Peter Southwood has replied to you there so Ill comment at that article talk page if theres anything useful that I can add Cheers      Octopus wars   Hi Rexx Re your statement An improved system is to equip the regulator that is normally used throughout the dive the primary with a long hose typically  metres  ft long This is the regulator that is donated to a buddy who is out of air The octopus or secondary regulator is then reserved for the donor diver and is on a short hose mounted just under the chin The principal advantage is that the diver who is in trouble will receive a regulator that is known to be working  Im afraid the jury is still out on your claiming that this Hogarthian rigging style is actually an improved system  Im sure youre aware this is HIGHLY controversial you only have to track most scuba discussion boards and this alternative is specifically criticised as unsubstantiated by BSAC httpwwwbsaccompageaspsectionsectionTitleClarificationstatementonAlternativeSupplytrainingandgoingdiving  But that isnt my main criticism here I think having a small battle over the best octopus rigging on a general topic area such as Buddy Diving is totally defocusing and irrelevant Remember I did make room to say that systems did vary in standardisation I think this is enough in this topic area but I would be interested in youre views Respect Howie       Sorry Howie but in Wikipedia the only thing that counts is verifiability and my text is firmly sourced to a reliable source while your text is unfortunately unsourced It is irrelevant that I am of the opinion that it is an improvement but it is highly relevant that my source holds that opinion  From a personal perspective Im afraid that BSAC once again fails to keep up with developments that actually improve diver safety It was the same story with nitrox with trimix with rebreathers BSAC was slow to accept all of these  heck Ive been diving long enough to remember BSAC preferring ABLJs to stab jackets because of fears that the diver might end up face down on the surface Look at the statement they make It admits three incidents of a divers reg being snatched out of their mouth and then fails to understand that training for that eventuality would reduce the stress in such situations It boils down to Theres nothing wrong with Hogarthian configuration except that we dont teach it The only problem they can find is if the diver is using twin independents  and everybody knows that that configuration is only used for solo diving so has no relevance to buddies  It may be surprising to find that we cannot simply write what we know about about a subject but we have to report what others reliable sources have already written Feel free by all means to give a reference to a RS for the configuration that you wrote about When you do Ill be happy to attribute the statement about an improved system At present according to WPASF only claims that are disputed among reliable sources need to be qualified I have no intention of having any battles  and Im very happy that youre contributing so much  but you really need to provide a lot more reliable sources for what you write Cheers      Re your recent additions to Buddy Diving   Come on Rexx dont you think its totally over the top to have such an exhaustive discussion of the alternative ways to configure hoses and their consequential handover procedures in such a general overview section such as Buddy Diving  Why not move this very specialist discussion onto a separate topic in its own right  After all we are supposedly here to help expand subject knowledge for people who are generally unfamiliar with a topic not to take general subject area and confuse or bore readers with obscure areas of specialist contention  You are obviously very passionate about hogarthian long hose arguments but cant we put this all into perspective  Respect Howie        I moved this down to the proper location     Thanks Gene   Well look at it from the other point of view Howie Should the article describe just one way of gear rigging as if there were no alternative Because thats how I found the article before I added the paragraph on a Hogarthianstyle configuration I certainly dont think there should be an article in its own right as the scuba diving coverage on Wikipedia is already fragmented into a huge number of stubs and underreferenced articles We should be trying to collect together similar topics and build decentsized articles with quality references For heavens sake we have  who runs Rubicon Research Repository and who can find references for us on almost any diving topic where a reference exists Why do we still end up with paragraph after paragraph of unsourced claims  or just as bad stuff sourced to somebodys blog or personal webpage If we want to improve coverage of scuba diving lets get back to the basics read what the good sources say and then dispassionately summarise them with citations  To answer your point I actually think that breathing a long hose is more relevant to the topic of Buddy diving than to almost any other since it is only in the context of diving with a buddy that the long primary makes a difference I do understand though that you may not see it the same way  For what its worth I stopped being passionate about the longhose arguments sometime around  since by then the debates on recscuba and ScubaL had reached a firm conclusion Im merely surprised that the same old wellrefuted arguments are still being trotted out as if Jarrod Jablonski et al had never put any thought into how to configure diving gear Cheers     Well I cant say that youve convinced me Rexx but Ill respect what youre trying to achieve on this subject  I do think that with the material youve added the logical flow is rather disjointed at the moment Whyit attempts to encompass both octopus rigging convention in ordinary sport diving and that done in certain segments of more technical diving all together  What Id like to do is keep whats there now and restructure it along lines of sport diving and tech diving practises  will try to get this done in the next few days and will be interested in your comments CheersHowie     Its ok for us to have different opinions  and it would be a dull world if we all thought the same so Im never going to worry about convincing you  The main remaining difference is that I think youre still viewing the long hose as inseparable from tech diving while I consider that a false distinction I expect to be diving with approximately the same configuration whether Im doing a  metre training dive for a novice at Stoney or a  metre trimix dive on the pump house at Dorot