Aha  Thank you for explaining  So Maven is the magicians magician  though he doesnt have the public recognition of the others he is an industryrespected innovator and mentor and those are the criteria that you use to define great  We should definitely work on an article about him then  If you can pile up references on his discussion page or feel free to take a stab at writing the article itself if youre comfortable you can stick to WPNPOV  Now my next question is one of terminology  What word do you use in the industry to distinguish between the publiclyknown magicians such as Copperfield Penn  Teller Siegfried  Roy Doug Henning etc to define their fame  If theyre not on a list of great what list would you put them on